4 - Intro - Module 4 - Tahnee - Teleclass - Transcript

7/24/2019 4 - Intro - Module 4 - Tahnee - Teleclass - Transcript

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Teleclass Transcript Cloe Madanes & Mark Peysha

07/07/10

MP: All right. Welcome to the teleclass e!eryone. Today "e#ll $e talking a$o%t the

Tahnee ilm and "e are !ery e'cited a$o%t to $e talking a$o%t some o the %ndamental

core principles o (trategic )nter!ention and this is e'citing $eca%se in my opinion this isthe st% that makes the $iggest dierence in the "ay that yo% approach a pro$lem and

comm%nication as "ell as "hat yo% act%ally do to sol!e a pro$lem or to o!ercome a

challenge. )n the ne't e" min%tes "e "ill $e talking a$o%t the key principles laid o%t inthe inter!ention "hich are the concept o lie stages sae pro$lems !ers%s *%ality

pro$lems the cra+y eight and the triad and ho" these elements are interrelated and then

"e "ill go into a mega,strategy that is not mentioned in the ilm $%t "hich is a h%ge parto the ilm and an enormo%s part o o%r "ork "hich is the pretend strategy. And at the

end o the call "e-ll o$!io%sly ha!e time or *%estions.

(o let#s start o "ith one o the cr%cial concepts to grasp $%t this is the concept o liestages. )n (trategic )nter!ention "e are al"ays looking or sol%tions "hich are the

*%ickest $%t also the most lasting the most holistic sol%tions that yo% can create. And

there is a reason "hy (trategic )nter!entions that yo% get to see in the ilms aren-t the

kind o changes "here yo% kno" so on get to p%mp %p and then they lose their i++le andthen things $ackslides again and yo% kno" they-re $ack "here they started and that is

$eca%se (trategic )nter!ention is $ased on not only the making changes that last $%tcontin%e to de!elop and gro" to the point that they aect other people "ho "eren-t e!en

in the inter!ention and the reason is that o%r sol%tions g%ide people in the direction o

gro"th and contri$%tion. ro"th and contri$%tion are the la"s o the %ni!erse. o%either are gro"ing or yo%-re starting to die and yo% either are contri$%ting to others and

yo% ha!e to contri$%te to others in order to $e part o a healthy relationship and

ecosystem. And that-s on the le!el o nat%re as "ell as on the le!el o society. (o most

sol%tions are in essence sol%tions that get people to gro" to another le!el o a"arenessde!elopment or skill. The people "ho e'perience a (trategic )nter!ention don-t

$ackslide or that reason $eca%se they ha!e gro"n to another le!el o $eing a person andto another le!el o mastery o!er a skill and another le!el o pro$lem sol!ing or anotherle!el o relationship. And the change al"ays $ecomes part o a gro"th pattern "hich

contin%es and thereore is reinorced.

o" the concept o lie stages is that o%r li!es are made %p o a se*%ence o stages. o%

can also think o them as kind o %nct%re points or transition points to dierent le!els o

de!elopment and one o the easiest e'amples to %nderstand is the transition that yo%ng

people ha!e rom li!ing "ith their parents at home and going to school and then s%ddenlythey mo!e o%t li!e or start li!ing on their o"n and they take a direction in their careers.

(o that-s a h%ge o$!io%sly h%ge rite o passage. )t is one o the $iggest leaps that people

e!er take in o%r c%lt%re and it is a h%ge change and it is a scary change. )t in!ol!esletting go o things that are certain and tested that ha!e yo%r entire lie and then s%ddenly

trying things that yo% ne!er tried $eore. )t is also one o the times o greatest

opport%nity and risk in lie. The years $et"een ages si'teen and t"enty,o%r really tendto inl%ence yo%r lie or the ne't t"enty years. 2ie stages in!ol!e maor transitions and

in o%r calc%lation there are %s%ally three to o%r maor priorities in!ol!ed in any lie

stage. (o $asically or instance "ith yo%ng people i they-re lea!ing home the

priorities are: 1: to lea!e home in a good "ay and disentangle rom their parents "hile

Copyright 3 4010 Madanes,Peysha P%$lishing

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creating ne" relationships "ith peers. The second priority "o%ld $e to !ent%re into "ork

and get some $asic independence skills li!ing on yo%r o"n and 5: to set on a or"ard

thinking path s%ch as inding a career or inding a mentor or a orm o ed%cation or arelationship or all o those.

) a yo%ng person is tackling these three $ig,ticket items then they are really doing pretty"ell in their lie stage. The other pro$lems kind o come and go "e al"ays ha!e

challenges $%t those are details in terms o the lie stage. 6ten "hen someone is ha!ing

some maor pro$lems "hat yo% "ill ind is that they are ha!ing tro%$le making thetransition rom one lie stage to another. The reason that lie stages are so %se%l and

important to an inter!entionist is that i yo% %nderstand the stage that someone is going

thro%gh yo% *%ickly %nderstand the most important iss%es and o$stacles they are acing

the $iggest *%estions they are st%mped "ith the $iggest %ncertainties and dilemmas thatthey ha!e and it $ecomes !ery clear to yo% "hat the person needs in order to mo!e

or"ard.

(o in the ilm "hen Tahnee stood %p and said that she "as depressed then Tony tookher thro%gh a process o %nderstanding her triad her needs her cra+y eight and he came

to oc%s on her relationship pro$lems "hich "ere her ears o commitment and the other"orries that she had a$o%t the dilemmas in relation to her relationship. The reason that

Tony came to "ork on those pro$lems instead o other pro$lems and to g%ide her on

relationship iss%es and tr%sting men "as that he sa" that "hate!er emotional pro$lemsTahnee "as going thro%gh it "as she needed to make the transition and gro"th to the

ne't phase o lie "hich or her "as to ha!e a committed relationship. ) she didn-t make

that transition she-d $e st%ck in this kind o ear%l depressed state. And so $y the "ay

it doesn-t mean that e!eryone has got ten lie stages. We don-t mean that e!eryone has toget married at t"enty,i!e or ha!e kids and then they li!e yo% kno" that kind o thing.

o%-d ha!e to determine "hate!er path yo% need or yo%r lie $%t "hate!er that path is

yo% do need to gro" and contri$%te. That is part o yo%r path. (o "hen people aremo!ing or"ard in their lie stages yo% kno" these stages act%ally do re*%ire a lot o

eort and oc%s $eca%se it-s tr%ly sel,de!elopment. o%-re stretching yo%rsel. )t is

getting yo%r $rain and yo%r $ody and yo%r emotional skills to another le!el. or instancerom $eing an eighteen,year,old li!ing at home in high school senior high school to

$eing a t"enty,t"o and a committed co%ple li!ing in yo%r o"n apartment and "orking

that is a h%ge change.

(o in the diic%lty o making this transition people oten de!elop ears or o$stacles or

they get st%ck in a dilemma o ho" to mo!e or"ard. )n Tahnee-s case she had $een

$etrayed $y a $oyriend in the past "ho "as %ntr%st"orthy and she "as %n"illing to takea risk o gi!ing her c%rrent $oyriend her %ll commitment. And "hen people get st%ck

they de!elop "hat "e call 8sae pro$lems.9

2et-s talk a$o%t the dierences $et"een a sae pro$lem and a *%ality pro$lem. A *%ality

pro$lem is related to yo%r ad!ancement or yo%r de!elopment. (o or instance ho" to

mo!e o%t o yo%r parents- ho%se is a *%ality pro$lem. What career direction to take is a

*%ality pro$lem. o" do ) mo!e to the ne't le!el o my relationship and get married or


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"hate!er it sho%ld $e ; that-s a *%ality pro$lem. The pro$lem is that *%ality pro$lems

are scary and they eel %namiliar. o%-re mo!ing into %namiliar territory. They re*%ire

a great deal o sel,conidence and moment%m to tackle them. And a sae pro$lem onthe other hand is a pro$lem $eha!ior or pattern that may $e holding someone $ack $%t

"hich is strictly speaking is %nder the person-s control. (o sae pro$lems in!ol!e

emotional management iss%es like an'iety ear %namiliarity depressiondisappointment and $asically they in!ol!e not ha!ing the conidence to take the risks or

not ha!ing a !ision to mo!e or"ard or not "anting to mo!e or"ard $eca%se yo% don-t

kno" ho" yo%-re going to do it or e!en ha!ing a !ision $%t not $eing a$le to take action.

CM: es and the cra+y eight can act%ally $e seen as a sae pro$lem $eca%se or e'ample

"as Tahnee "hen she alternates $et"een anger and sadness or anger and depression

those are !ery amiliar emotions to her. (he-s $een doing them or years so she kno"sthat she "ill go rom one to another and it is amiliar it is comorta$le it eels like it is

%st like her $%t act%ally or those o yo% "ho are listening and are therapists this is the

kind o patient in therapy that is a nightmare and that is one o the reasons that ) like to

sho" Tahnee $eca%se she is the kind o patient that therapists are !ery amiliar "ith. As atherapist they are a$le to mo!e the person %s%ally most therapists rom sadness to anger

and then the therapist is s%rprised "hen they mo!e $ack rom anger to sadness and itseems like that the therapist is l%ct%ating $et"een the t"o emotions together "ith the

patient and neither o them seem to $e a$le to get %nst%ck. (o in a sense e!en tho%gh

this patient is a nightmare $eca%se they %st alternate rom one emotion to another anddon-t get $etter it is !ery good inancially or therapists $eca%se they can s%pport the

therapist or a long time. ere yo% ha!e the diic%lt person like this !ery oten it is a

"oman "ho is going thro%gh the cra+y eight she is "orking she is intelligent she is

attracti!e she is !er$al and she doesn-t sol!e her pro$lem so she "ill stay in therapyore!er.


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their mo%ths. The peng%ins "ill act%ally di!e in the "ater and gra$ a ish and gi!e it to

the older peng%ins and they are interesting to "atch. ohn (tein$eck. The main actors are >ames ?ean and >%lie arris. ) %sed to

teach rom this to sho" to ill%strate the diic%lties o the adolescent dilemma. (o thestory and )-ll tell it to yo% $riely is that there is a man "ho has arm and he has t"o sons

and apparently he "as married to a 8$ad "oman9 that let. )t "as not clear in the ilm

"hether she is a dr%g addict or a prostit%te or "hat $%t she a$andons the amily so theman raises the t"o sons $y himsel and one son is the 8good son9 the a!orite o the

ather and he-s the one that helps the ather "ith the arm and does e!erything right. The

other son is >ames ?ean "ho seems to ne!er $e a$le to do anything right. (omeho"e!erything he does t%rns o%t $adly and no matter ho" he tries to help the ather he

doesn-t seem to $e a$le to get across to him and he-s ne!er appreciated or recogni+ed.

And so at one point in time the ather gets !ery %pset $eca%se >ames ?ean has done

something to contact the mother and so the older son gets %pset and r%ns a"ay "hichaects the ather and the ather has a stroke.

And so in the scene ; it-s the cr%cial scene ) think in the mo!ie and is the one that ) liketo sho" ; the ather is lying in $ed "ith a stroke and he appears to $e dying. e doesn-t

seem to $e conscio%s. A n%rse comes into the room and she $eha!es in a !ery annoying

"ay she makes a lot o noise she talks a$o%t ho" she needs coee and "here can sheind coee she-s chattering a"ay and then she lea!es. And then >%lie arris "ho plays

>ames ?ean-s girlriend comes into the room and she stands ne't to the $ed o the ather

"ho doesn-t sho" any signs o seeing her or hearing her $%t she says 8Please please

yo% ha!e to help yo%r son. a!e him help yo%. (ho" him that yo% need him. Please


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ha!e him do something or yo% other"ise he "ill ne!er gro" to $ecome an ad%lt. Please

let him help yo%.9 And the ather doesn-t mo!e doesn-t sho" any sign that he heard and

she lea!es the room. Then >ames ?ean comes in and stands a"k"ardly $y the door andthe ather mo!es a inger signaling him to come closer to the $ed. (o >ames ?ean $ends

do"n !ery close to the ather-s ace and the ather says 8That "oman the n%rse ) can-t

stand her. et rid o her. o% help me.9 And so the ilm ends "ith >ames ?ean p%lling%p the chair and sitting ne't to the ather as the camera mo!es o%t and it is the end o the

ilm "hile he-s sitting there ready to help the ather. (o this is an e'traordinary

dramati+ation o the yo%ng person-s need to make that transition "here they are thecompetent one.

(o ) remem$er one time that Mark and ) "ere !isiting at Tony-s ho%se and Tony said to

%s 8o% "on-t $elie!e "hat ) did the "hole day yesterday ) spent ho%rs "ith >airekteaching me ho" to do a photo slide sho" on the comp%ter9 and he sho"ed %s the sho".

)t "as great.


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more anger and r%stration and $eing acti!e and "anting to get things done "anting to

do something $e !igilant check things o%t $e orce%l $e a "arrior. And then this lips

o!er to the other loop "hich is sel,pity more rela'ed looser more disappointed lettinggo yo% kno" grie!ing. (o people oten take the lo" road to dealing "ith the cra+y eight

"hich co%ld $e eating drinking taking a risk type acti!ity "hich completely changes

yo%r state and that-s like the lo" road. The %pper road is act%ally to resol!e that pro$lemand to mo!e to the ne't stage to resol!e that dilemma.

(o "hen yo% o$ser!e the cra+y eight in yo%rsel or in someone else "here yo% arestarting to go $ack and orth a$o%t something yo% ha!e to %st think that there is an

%nans"ered *%estion there is a do%$t here there is a hesitation in yo% or in the other

person that is pre!enting them rom act%ally mo!ing on to the ne't stage and that is

"here yo% "ant to oc%s.

CM: ='actly. Mark let-s descri$e the triad a little $it.

MP: eah great. (o i yo% remem$er the triad is made %p o three things: yo%rphysiology yo%r oc%s and yo%r lang%age patterns and the com$ination o these three

acco%nt or yo%r emotional e'perience. The triad is really an inter!ention tool. )t is a"ay o $reaking do"n $ig pro$lems in a "ay that makes it !ery clear "hat is in yo%r

control and "hat is not. (o Tahnee has a sae pro$lem o not $eing a$le to stop crying

lately in her "ord $eating hersel %p a$o%t her lie getting tense and then going thro%ghthe cra+y eight a$o%t the prospect o $eing in a committed relationship and then getting

depressed and %sing her depression to get things to $e done her "ay in her relationships.

And "hen e!eryone is possessed $y a pattern o stopping them the triad is a good "ay to

$reak %p that *%ality pro$lem into component pieces. (o in Tahnee-s case Tony pointedo%t that in order or her to eel depressed Tahnee act%ally needs to p%t hersel in a certain

physiology ass%me a certain oc%s and certain lang%age patterns.

CM: And it is not %st lang%age $%t the meaning that is gi!en to the lang%age.

MP: es and ho" she comm%nicates it. (o the key is that Tahnee does not disp%te thethree parts o the triad are "ithin her conscio%s control. There are people "ho "ill

act%ally disp%te that. Thro%gh the demonstration that Tony takes her thro%gh she gets

that it is impossi$le to $e depressed "itho%t conscio%sly and deli$erately ass%ming the

triad o depression. (o "hen Tahnee recogni+es the conscio%s deli$erate parts o herdepression the *%estion then is "hy does she p%t hersel into depression And the

ans"er is $eca%se the depression is meeting her needs.

Tony then g%ided Tahnee to $e deli$erate a$o%t ho" she managed her triad and ho" he

o%nd another e'ample or her and yo% kno" in this case he picked %p that he %sed a

transormational metaphor here. Tahnee had said that she had $een p%tting hersel indepression and saying that she can-t p%t her past $ehind her and Tony $asically had her

take a !ery pleas%ra$le e'perience rom her past "hich "as a se'%al eeling o pleas%re

and he p%t that sensation o pleas%re right in ront o her. e $asically instr%cted her on

ho" to manage her triad so that she co%ld deli$erately gi!e hersel pleas%re rather than


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pain and th%s meet her needs. (o that is the po"er o the triad.

CM: es and the cr%cial part o the inter!ention is "hen Tony helps her to reali+e that ishe can change her state in a e" seconds rom a state o total depression she said she

"as like an eight on depression to a state o happiness and e%phoria i she can do that

or a e" seconds it means that she can do that al"ays so it is al"ays %nder her control.This is so important to point o%t to the people yo% are "orking "ith to point o%t to them

that "hen they can change their state e!en i it is %st or a e" seconds or co%ple o

min%tes it means that they can al"ays change their state. Their state is %nder theircontrol. This is a %ndamental principle o (trategic )nter!ention. 6ther approaches

$elie!e that people are sort o dri!en $y their state $y their emotions $y their

physiology. We don-t $elie!e that. We $elie!e that it is all %nder yo%r control and yo%

can change it and "e demonstrate that yo% can change it. That is "hy Tony lo!es tomake this kind o inter!ention. )t is s%ch a dramatic demonstration o change in a e"

seconds.

MP: ='actly. o% kno" i yo% think o the three illness o the triad ; physiology oc%sand lang%age ;each o those are indi!id%ally conscio%s and deli$erate and %nder yo%r

control and that makes clear to the person okay so "hat else is there that isn-t %nder yo%rcontrol Those three are %nder yo%r control. What is not %nder yo%r control and yo%

$reak do"n the sae pro$lem "hich is %s%ally ; yo% kno" the tr%th is that $ehind these

sae pro$lem is %s%ally a crisis o conidence and a pro$lem o managing yo%r state andthen the person once he reali+ed the parts o himsel that they ha!e deli$erate conscio%s

control and ho" that conscio%s control is related to the state that is s%pposedly

%nconscio%s then it takes them in a position o empo"erment "here they reali+e yo%

kno" 8eah )-m doing this thing.9

(o in Tahnee-s case Tony seemed pretty conident that Tahnee kne" ho" to proceed

ne't. (o in the act%al inter!ention he didn-t take her thro%gh the *%ality pro$lem and thelie stage that "as ahead o her. e attacked straight and so orth $%t yo% kno"

"hene!er anyone is g%ided into a ne" de!elopment or stage there is a lot o ears and

timidity and so $y $reaking thro%gh she "as a$le to address the real pro$lems and thereal *%ality challenge that she had ahead o her that is "hy she $roke thro%gh it makes so

many changes.

o" Cloe has a !ery po"er%l strategy called the Pretend (trategy and Tony act%ally%ses the pretend strategy in this ilm as "ell. This Pretend (trategy gets people to that

point "here they are a$le to rehearse and p%t themsel!es in a position o sol!ing

pro$lems.

CM: es.


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a diic%lt stage like the lea!ing home stage and to $e a$le to create a co%ple and a career

and so on then yo% increase enormo%sly the chances that they "ill $e a$le to na!igate the

ne't stage happily and that-s "hat Tahnee did. (he not only "as a$le to ha!e a greatrelationship "ith her $oyriend "ho $ecame her h%s$and $%t they "ere $oth !ery

s%ccess%l in $%siness they had their $a$y and "ere parenting s%ccess%lly.

MP: es so they sort o not they got it sink and they sort o na!igating the lie stages in

a great conscio%s and deli$erate "ay and thereore they "ere a$le to %mp into

parenthood "itho%t any %rther marital crisis.

CM: es. (o a dierent techni*%e that ) %se that so%nds a $it complicated $%t is really

*%ite simple is the Pretend (trategy. The idea is that i yo% are pretending a $eha!ior

then yo% are not really e'periencing that $eha!ior. (o i yo% are pretending to $edepressed yo% can-t really $e depressed $eca%se yo% are pretending. ) yo% are

pretending to ha!e a headache yo% can-t really ha!e a headache. o% are pretending the

headache. )t is !ery interesting $eca%se some people really need to ha!e an e'perience in

order to %se that e'perience in a relationship and other people can %st lie a$o%t it. ore'ample some "i!es "ho don-t "ant to ha!e se' act%ally $ring on a headache so that

they can say 8ot tonight dear ) ha!e a headache.9 6ther "i!es %st say 8) ha!e aheadache9 "hen they don-t act%ally. They don-t really need to ha!e the real headache

it-s %st an e'c%se. (o it is !ery interesting ho" yo% can play "ith metaphors that

attri$%te oc%s and also meaning to a physiological state.

(o let me e'plain "hat the pretend strategy is. 2et-s say or e'ample that yo% ha!e a

child "ho has $ad stomachaches that don-t seem to ha!e a medical ca%se and "here the

parents are "orried and all o!er the child $eca%se o the stomach aches so the child getsa lot o $eneits rom ha!ing stomachaches a lot o positi!e attention rom the amily

rom the parents. This positi!e attention is "hat re%d called the secondary gain o the

symptom the stomach ache $eing the symptom and the primary gain $eing according tore%d to e'press something that "as repressed. The secondary gain according to re%d

is the gain o the attention that the child gets $eca%se o the symptom.

)n (trategic )nter!ention "hat re%d called the secondary gain "e-ll consider to $e the

primary gain. When the child has a stomachache and gets a lot o attention that is "hat

the child gains. That is the primary $eneit o the symptoms. 6ne thing that ) like to do

is to ask a child in ront o the parents to pretend to ha!e a stomachache. (o he is to holdhis stomach and say 8My t%mmy h%rts9 or something like that. The $ea%ty o this is that

e!en "hen yo% ha!e a shy child that doesn-t really "ant to pretend yo% can $eha!e as i

they did. (o yo% say 86h $y the e'pression on yo%r ace ) can tell that yo% arepretending to ha!e a stomachache. That is really good. o%-re a good actor.9 (o then

the ne't step is that yo% ask the parents to hold the child to comort him to do all the

things that they do or the real stomachaches $%t to do them or the pretend stomachache.Then yo% direct them to do this at home. or e'ample yo% might say e!eryday irst

thing in the morning and last thing in the e!ening or perhaps e!en also "hen the child

comes home rom school they are all to do this little scene. The amily gathers together.

The child pretends to ha!e a stomachache. The parents comort the child. And so "hat


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happens is that the pretend stomachaches replace the real stomachaches. The real

stomachaches are no longer necessary $eca%se they ha!e $een replaced $y the pretend

stomachaches. (o the child gets the same gain rom pretending that he did rom the realstomachaches.

(o in many "ays this is similar to "hat Tony did "ith Tahnee in the sense o changingthe state and it is a !ariation that is diic%lt to resist $eca%se yo% deine any $eha!ior on

the part o the child as the pretending.


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C: es that-s e'actly. They had a "hole marriage $ased on that and that he "as "eak

and had to $e treated !ery gently and she "as a therapist "ho "as strong. (o this also

introd%ced h%mor and play%lness in the sit%ation.

MP: And so it took the edge o the symptom or her kno"ing that part o it co%ld $e

pretend that she had to get conscio%s "ith.

CM: ='actly. es.

MP: (he co%ld deal "ith him more as a "hole person than as a "o%nded person.

CM: Gight.

MP: )t allo"s her to $eha!e ; yeah ) mean it makes him less serio%s. ) g%ess people are

terriied o not taking someone-s complaint serio%sly or not respecting someone else-s

s%ering.

CM: ='actly and all these trying to get %s %sed as al"ays in a pleasant "ay "ith h%mor.

This is !ery important and o co%rse Tony is master%l at %sing these strategies "ithh%mor. ) yo% remem$er "ith Tahnee he is constantly cracking her %p.

MP: es and in the 2indsey ilm he ig%red o%t ho" to make her la%gh and he al"ays$rings her $ack to "here she is la%ghing. )t is a h%ge part o that inter!ention.

CM: es e'actly. %mor is h%gely therape%tic.

MP: ep. reat.

CM: 6kay. (o ) "ant to tell another story and this is pro$a$ly the case that ) am mostpro%d o in my entire career.

MP: reat.

CM: This story may so%nd a $it clinical to some o yo% $%t it is really not. )t is %st

a$o%t a h%man $eing in distress. (o this is "hat happened. ) had $een teaching at the

Hni!ersity o Maryland hospital in


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happened so re*%ently and "ere so dangero%s. (o the director o training asked me i )

co%ld take the case. ) said that really ) co%ldn-t it "as going to $e too intense and ) "as

too $%sy $%t i he ga!e me a psychiatric resident or a psychology intern ) said ) co%lds%per!ise it o!er the phone. (o that is "hat happened and that same day a psychology

intern called me and said that he had $een assigned this case and "e disc%ssed the

inormation that "e had a$o%t this yo%ng "oman that )-ll call Amy.

(o Amy had had her irst psychotic $reak at the age si'teen "hen the parents "ere

di!orcing. (he "as the yo%ngest o i!e children. The older o%r "ere $rothers "ho atthat time had already let home and "ere at college or "orking and at this point no" at

this point in time they "ere all !ery s%ccess%l. o" "hen ) heard that the irst $reak

happened at age si'teen "hen the parents "ere di!orcing at this time and this "as a

"ealthy amily ) immediately had a hypothesis that pro$a$ly this "as an attempt to holdher parents together or "as a res%lt o the despair o the parents separating that pro$a$ly

there "as an in%stice in the amily. The more serio%s the pro$lem yo% are looking at the

more yo% ha!e to think a$o%t an in%stice in the amily. (o ) tho%ght "ell i the ather is

a $%sinessman and the mother "as a ho%se"ie and there "as some s%spicion that she"as alcoholic !ery possi$ly the ather took ad!antage o her in the di!orce. This may

ha!e $een Amy-s "ay o p%nishing the ather $eca%se o the h%miliation o ha!ing apsychotic da%ghter his only da%ghter the only girl. (o she started a career o lie in

mental hospitals and had all kinds o diagnosis and my s%spicion "as that originally she

"as acting cra+y to p%nish the ather. o" she "as also se!erely s%icidal. (he "as thekind o patient that "o%ld $reak some glass o$ect an ashtray or something in the

hospital in ront o e!eryone and c%t her "rist and go aro%nd $leeding all o!er the place

and she had $een gi!en all the medications that yo% can imagine. (o ) said to my st%dent

and the psychology intern 8) think that the most important thing that "e ha!e to do irstis to get the sei+%res %nder control $eca%se the sei+%res are !ery dangero%s. ot

responding to the anti,sei+%re medication is !ery dangero%s. (he co%ld ha!e permanent

$rain damage or she co%ld really h%rt hersel and also it is impossi$le to talk to her "ithho" re*%ently she had sei+%res. (o this is "hat ) "ant yo% to do. ) "ant yo% to call the

parents.9 The parents li!ed in dierent cities that "ere $oth a$o%t an ho%r light a"ay

rom


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sei+%re Amy screamed and ins%lted him in terri$le lang%age told him he "as an idiot in

m%ch more lorid lang%age than that. And the therapist said 8Wonder%l. o% %st did it.

Thank yo% so m%ch9 and asked the parents em$race her. And she started screamingagain and he said 8That-s great. That-s another sei+%re.9 And ho"e!er ) did ask him to

gi!e an e'planation to her and the parents o "hy they "ere doing this. The e'planation

is that i yo% can ha!e an in!ol%ntary $eha!ior s%ch as a sei+%re i yo% can prod%ce itdeli$erately then yo% can also stop it deli$erately. (o the irst step is to prod%ce the

in!ol%ntary $eha!ior deli$erately. That "ill gi!e yo% some control that "ill %ltimately

lead yo% to $e a$le to stop the sei+%res. And so "e did this or se!eral "eeks and theintensity o her real sei+%res $egan to decrease. The re*%ency $egan to decrease and she

$egan to respond to medications.

MP: Wo".

CM: )t is so interesting "hen this happens. )-!e done this "ith many epileptics. 6

co%rse ) only get the cases that don-t respond to medication and it-s %s%ally mostly

children or yo%ng people $%t it "o%ld $e !ery interesting to do research on this. )t-s not!ery clear ho" this happens $%t someho" the pretend sei+%res replace the real sei+%res

and the yo%ng person $egins to respond to medication.

(o ) "as !ery happy a$o%t this and then "ent on meeting "ith the amily and one day the

psychologist says to me 8o% kno" they are going to present Amy-s case at grandro%nds. a!e they in!ited yo%9 rand ro%nds is a meeting that hospitals %sed to ha!e

departments o psychiatry %sed to ha!e a$o%t once a "eek ) think that no" %s%ally they

ha!e them once a month "here a case is presented and se!eral people speak a$o%t the

patient and the sit%ation is disc%ssed. )t-s a$o%t an ho%r,long meeting %s%ally atl%nchtime and ) had not $een in!ited $%t ) told him that ) "as coming any"ay.

(o "hen ) arri!ed the meeting had already started and there "as a psychiatrist e'plainingthat Amy "as $ipolar. Then another one stood %p and said no she "as really

schi+ophrenic. Then a psychologist stood %p and said that she "as a m%ltiple personality

and she had disco!ered o%rteen personalities. Then there "as an in!ited g%est "hoapparently had inter!ie"ed Amy prior to the meeting and this g%est "as a psychiatrist

rom a !ery prestigio%s %ni!ersity a "oman. (he said that Amy "as the typical patient

that "o%ld end %p s%cceeding in killing hersel and that she "o%ld pro$a$ly kill hersel in

the hospital or else she "o%ld end %p as a chronic patient or the rest o her lie in the$ack"ards o the hospital. And she said that Amy "as %ntreata$le and inc%ra$le.

MP: Wo".

CM: ) didn-t kno" that Amy "as act%ally in the room. At that moment she stood %p. )

had $een s%per!ising this on the phone. This "as the irst time that is sa" Amy and ) "asenraged to hear this "oman say these things $%t then "hen Amy stood %p and ) reali+ed

that she had $een listening to all these ) cannot tell yo% my %ry. ) had to say to mysel

8Cloe calm do"n.


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medications in the li$rary o the hospital and that she tho%ght that she "as to'ic rom all

the dierent medications that she had $een gi!en and i they co%ld take her o o all the

medications and deto'iy her pro$a$ly they "o%ld $e a$le to disco!er that that "as "hat"as really "rong "ith her. )t "as the only intelligent thing that "as said in that meeting.

(o the meeting ended "ith that. 6 co%rse no$ody responded to Amy at all and ) "asready to kill some$ody $%t ) tho%ght 8o Cloe. Gemem$er the 2ao T+% saying J) yo%

kill in anger dig t"o gra!es- so ) tho%ght ) can-t $e angry ) had to $e nice and strategic.

(o ) approached the chairman o the department "ho ) kne" rom the past and ) said8o" are yo% ?octor9 and he said 86h great. Cloe it-s so nice to see yo%9 and ) said

8(o nice to see yo% Wo%ld yo% like to ha!e l%nch May$e "e co%ld talk or a e"

min%tes.9 e said 8eah let-s go to the caeteria.9 (o "e "ent to the caeteria o the

hospital. e "as act%ally an e'pert in epilepsy so ) said to him 8o% kno" that ) ha!e$een s%per!ising the amily therapy o Amy and "e managed to control the sei+%res so

no" she is responding to medication and the sei+%res are %nder control.9 e said 8)

kno". )-m !ery impressed "ith that.9 (o ) said 8) cannot imagine "hat it m%st $e or

yo% to ha!e this patient in the hospital the responsi$ility. To think that this is a "ellkno"n prominent amily and that pro$a$ly the psychiatrist they in!ited speaker "as

right and she-s going to kill hersel right here in the hospital. ) imagine that yo% m%st"ake %p in the middle o the night thinking J) "onder i the n%rses are doing their o$. )

"onder i she-s okay.- What a responsi$ility. ) eel so $ad or yo%9 and he "as looking at

me !ery p%++led like "here "as all this compassion coming rom (o then ) said8(ince she is pro$a$ly going to die any"ay ) "o%ld like to take her. ) "o%ld like to take

%ll responsi$ility get her o%t o the hospital p%t her to li!e "ith her mother "ho li!es in

a !ery nice resort to"n )-ll ha!e them ly to my instit%te or amily therapy and at least

she-ll get some e'perience o normal lie some happy lie ater ten years in the hospital$eore she dies9 and he said 86kay.9 ) said 8All right great. (o )-d like her to $e

discharged tomorro" morning9 and he said 8That "as ine.9 ) *%ickly looked at my

"atch and said 8) had to r%n. ice seeing yo% talk to yo% soon9 and ) let.

) ran to ind the psychologist and ) said to him 8We-re getting her o%t o the hospital

tomorro" morning. Tell the parents that they ha!e to ly here immediately and thentomorro" morning dri!e to Washington or a session at my instit%te.9 (o they did this

and they came to my instit%te. ) "as o$ser!ing the session $ehind a one,"ay mirror.

That-s the "ay that ) %s%ally teach therapists. ) o$ser!e the sessions and !ideotape them.

)t "as an interesting con!ersation $eca%se "e talked a$o%t ho" important it "o%ld $e tohelp Amy to ad%st to a normal lie and to her social class "ithin a normal amily lie.

(he didn-t ha!e clothes. (he looked like a mental patient. (he had interr%pted her

ed%cation in high school. (he hadn-t e!en gone to a resta%rant in yearsK she "o%ldn-tkno" ho" to $eha!e in a resta%rant. (o the parents agreed "ith this and "e p%t the ather

in charge in the ne't "eek o $%ying her clothes and ig%ring o%t "hat classes she co%ld

take so that she co%ld $ecome a little more c%lt%red. )t "as %nny $eca%se Amy said thati the psychiatrist "as right and she "as going to die yo%ng she didn-t "ant to die a

!irgin so she "anted to meet some yo%ng men. )n the past she had only $een

propositioned or se' in the $athroom o the hospital and she didn-t "ant that to $e her

irst se'%al e'perience. (o "e agreed "ith that and the ather said that he "o%ld


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introd%ce her to some yo%ng men.

They came the ne't "eek and the ather had done nothing $%t Amy "as ine. (he hadenoyed her time "ith her mother she had gone on "alks she "as looking %p seminars

and things that she co%ld do. (he had !isited her ather in to"n and had enoyed that

!isit $%t the ather had done nothing to help her so "e said "e "o%ld gi!e him another"eek. e came $ack the ne't "eek and he had done nothing $%t "e "ere prepared or

that. The therapist said to him 8o% kno" it is !ery important or a person to kno" i

they ha!e parents or i they don-t. A person can ha!e a ather that is a ather or a personcan $e an orphan and then it-s all right. The yo%ng person kno"s that they are an

orphanK they kno" that they don-t ha!e a ather to co%nt on and they can get ahead "ith

their lie. (o ) "ant to ask yo% (ir9 he said to the ather 8or Amy are yo% ali!e or are

yo% dead9 and the ather said 8)-m dead.9


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MP: o% kno" "hat strikes me as ama+ing a$o%t that story is irst o all ) tho%ght it "as

remarka$le in the $eginning that "hen she "as in the hospital yo%r *%estion "asn-t

a$o%t her diagnosis like the grand ro%nds and all these people competing or "hat thediagnosis "as going to $e

CM: es.

MP: o%r thing "as it "as not "hat-s "orth her yo% "ere asking 8(o ho" did she get

into this mess that she ended %p in the hospital9 yo% kno" and yo% tho%ght yo%rsel oh"ell "hen did it happen )n her teens parents- di!orce she-s o!erreacting to an in%stice

in a negati!e "ay and it ell o%t o the amily ; yo% kno" "hen the teenager-s mis$eha!e

in certain "ay and then it $ecomes the mis$eha!ior $ecomes so e'treme that it can no

longer $e contained $y the amily and so get taken o!er $y the therapist and then itescalates that "ay and so yo% "ere thinking ho" did she get into this position not "hat

"as "rong "ith her.

CM: ='actly. ) "as thinking o "hat "as the social conte't that makes sense or that$eha!ior to happen. eah.

MP: es yes. ='actly. )t is a comple' inter!ention there are so many stages $%t i yo%

think a$o%t it it is made %p o the mega,strategies that "e ha!e already talked in this irst

month o training. And so irst o all the Pretend (trategy. o% did a pretend strategy soshe co%ld e'perience the symptom in dierent "ays. (o yo% "orked and then came o%t

the e'perience o the sei+%re more deli$erate.

CM: Act%ally irst o all "as inding the reso%rces. We $ro%ght the parents in as hergreatest reso%rce.

MP: es e'panding the %nit. (o and then the pretend strategy then yo% e'panded the%nit again to incl%de the doctor so yo% had more agency o!er her.

CM: es and the hospital "as the greatest o$stacle. All the doctors in the hospital.

MP: Hh,hmm. (o yo% need to change conte't

CM: es.

MP: And then so yo% e'panded the %nit so that "as part o the pro$lem so it "asn-t

something o%tside o "hat yo% "ere "orking on. Then she hersel o%nd a compelling%t%re not to die a !irgin "hich is $asically a lie stage appropriate "ish "hich is no"

"hich is stage o lie she "as at and "hich stage she sho%ld $e at. (he "as $asically

oriented to the act that she "as an adolescent and she is starting to say i ) am going toha!e any $it o lie ) sho%ld at least ha!e some taste o this phase o lie that )-m

s%pposed to $e in.

CM: ='actly.


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MP: Then yo% o%nd the spark $y helping her to ind the identity that she sho%ld really

ha!e had in that amily in terms o taking classes and inding the part o hersel that made

sense as a da%ghter o that amily. Then yo% %sed the ele!ation strategy in oc%sing heron %n and learning and gro"th and the things that she sho%ld really $e doing. With the

ather yo% "ere prepared "ith a pretend strategy. )n other "ords he had his symptom.

is symptom "as ) can-t s%pport this.

CM: Gight. )-m helpless. ) can-t help her.

MP: eah. ) can-t do anything and )-m %st "ho ) am. And yo% said ine yo% can $e

dead can yo% do that e said he co%ld and yo% said there are conse*%ences to $eing

dead. And then $asically it-s a pretend strategy. 2et-s pretend yo%-re dead. 6kay. The

thing is yo% didn-t pretend to take the inheritance. o% took the real inheritance.

CM: es and one important thing to emphasi+e is that my hypothesis "as that she had

collapsed at age si'teen in an attempt to get re!enge on her ather or a$andoning the

mother and the amily and pro$a$ly or cheating the mother o money so $y gi!ing herher inheritance ) "as act%ally getting her re!enge "itho%t her ha!ing to $e cra+y.

MP: And yo% "ere righting the in%stice that created the pro$lem "hich she "asL

CM: That-s right.

MP: ep. And "e-ll talk a$o%t in%stice as more ; that is "hen someone percei!es

something to $e an in%stice they really oten get st%ck and it makes them incredi$ly

st%$$orn and they hold o%t or things.

CM: The greatest most serio%s pro$lems al"ays happen aro%nd in%stices or e'ample

in%stice committed $y agents o social control $eca%se o ethnic persec%tion po!ertycrime a$%se.

MP: Hh,hmm and that is one o the things a$o%t (trategic )nter!ention is that "e oc%son in%stice as "ell as $eing $oth an important so%rce to %nderstand inside o people in

terms o their changes and their de!elopment $%t also in terms o social conte't so they

can do c%lt%ral inter!entions.

CM: es that-s right.

MP: (o these are mega,strategies. )n this long inter!ention these are mega,strategiesthat "e-!e already talked. (o it is %st a se*%ence. o% did it master%lly and it "asn-t

anything that people in this class co%ldn-t learn ho" to do. (o pretty cool.

CM: 6kay.

MP: 2et-s take some *%estions.


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CM: Are there *%estions in the podcast

MP: eah. We ha!e some *%estions that "e recei!ed thro%gh e mail and "e ha!e some*%estions here. We-ll $e taking emails irst and so i yo% ha!e a *%estion on the phone

press star,t"o and that "ill raise yo%r hand and "e "ill $e a$le to ans"er. 6kay. (o )

ha!e a *%estion here. )-m %st going to read it o%t e!en tho%gh it is a little $it long ) thinkit-s $etter.

(ingle mothers oten come to coach or coaching "hen their kids are $ecoming teens andstarting to p%ll a"ay rom them. Hs%ally the children are the only intimate connection

and they re%se any s%ggestion that can help them get a lie "ith an ad%lt "ith their

primary intimate relationship. They also %s%ally see the teen only has the pro$lem so it is

hard to $reak the pattern o poor me and my lie and my child is not $eing nice and theyarg%e "ith their children as i they "ere themsel!es "ere a child and not an ad%lt. (o

they may talk incessantly $%t they can-t hear "hat is $eing said and they keep looking

%ntil they can ind someone "ho can agree "ith them and say that the child has a

pro$lem. )n a "ay they ha!e a good reason or that $eca%se i they p%sh the child andcontin%e to make the child a pro$lem then the child inally does $ecome a pro$lem and

he r%ns a"ay or she r%ns a"ay and gets into tro%$le and the mother can spend all her timeand emotions "rapped %p in the child "ho in some cases end %p li!ing "ith the mother in

ad%lthood. (o that is an interesting thing. (o $asically i the parent percei!es the teen-s

dierentiating $eha!ior as $eing a pro$lem and doesn-t "ant to ace the mother-s ne'tlie stage ; the mother-s ne't lie stage is so "hat "ill ) do ater my child has let as a

healthy ad%lt and )-m either going to ha!e another relationship then does the child

sometimes conorm to that to the mind set thinking that they are really the pro$lem.

?oes that make sense

CM: es $%t ) think that the *%estion is "hat do yo% do %st to $e a$le to mo!e them to

the ne't stage or to control them i the $eha!ior o the teenager is o%t o control tocontrol that $eha!ior. )t is diic%lt to "ork "ith that triad o mother and adolescent

child. (o it is good to $ring e'tended amily and the megastrategy is "hat are the

reso%rce (o ) "o%ld get their grandparents to participate e!en i they don-t li!e thereo!er the phone or thro%gh !isit. ) "o%ld get %ncles a%ntsK ) "o%ld get people rom the

comm%nity to create a larger gro%p. )t is m%ch easier to inter!ene "hen yo% ha!e a gro%p

o more than t"o $et"een yo% than yo% ha!e %st t"o that are so tied together.

MP: eah.

CM: (o then "hen yo% $ring their greatest reso%rces yo% can create a $ond or e'ample$et"een the adolescent and the grandather. (o "here the grandather has taken on some

o the ad!isory position or e!en the re"ard system and so this opens ne" possi$ilities in

the lie o the teenager ne" relationships ne" things to look or"ard to in the %t%re andso yo% relie!e the mother o some o those responsi$ilities and at the same time yo% treat

the mother as an ad%lt child o the older grandparents. With the older grandparents

helping and ad!ising the mother on ho" to mo!e ahead in her lie.


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MP: ot it. (o in other "ords i the mother is looking or people to ans"er her

*%estions "hich is "hy is my child $eing s%ch a pro$lem and she doesn-t "ant to ace

so yo% don-t ha!e any le!erage "ith her $eca%se she is the parent $%t i yo% ha!e otherpeople on the relationship in!ol!ed then yo% can ha!e more people more points o !ie"

to "ork "ith as a coach.

CM: That-s right and more to look or"ard to. o% kno" a ne" person can come in the

relationship and say to the kid 8o% kno" ) ha!e a little $it o money. ) yo% get the

a!erage at school or e!en i yo% get all C $%t yo% come home on time and $eha!eproperly )-ll send yo% on a trip to Caliornia or t"o "eeks this s%mmer or to a camp or

something like that9 and then a "hole ne" "orld o possi$ility is opened.


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07/07/10

a$o%t tr%st. )t "ill $e a$o%t other things a$le to tr%st her. )t "ill $e a$o%t gi!ing and

contri$%ting.

MP: es. )t is a !ery %ncertain place "hen yo% imagine yo%rsel and yo% set yo%rsel %p

as $eing on the recei!ing end o things tho%gh this happens oten "hen people are

e'pecting to something like or instance the spo%se-s appro!al or e'pecting a spo%se torecogni+e something in yo% or instance. 6r $asically checking to see yo% i people "ill

tell yo% that yo%-re okay. That is a !ery disempo"ered position $eca%se yo%-re really

oc%sing on things that are o%tside o yo%r control. There are other people-s reaction arenot al"ays easy to predict or e!en easy to control and so "here on the other hand i yo%

think o yo%rsel as a pro!ider o certainty then yo% $ecome m%ch more certain and solid

so ) "o%ld agree $asicallyL

CM: es it is something that yo% can control "hat yo% did and "hat yo%-!e contri$%te

$%t i yo%r permanent *%estion is a$o%t tr%st and mistr%st yo%-re so dependent on ho"

other people $eha!e.

MP: eah "hen yo% ind yo%r cra+y eight it may$e that it is really %se%l to disco!er

the cra+y eight and "hat is in that cra+y eight $%t yo% don-t necessarily ha!e to spendtime "ith that speciic cra+y eight. o% can %st recogni+e it and say okay so ) need to

go to a more o a *%ality pro$lem. (o in other "ords tr%st and mistr%st is essentially an

emotional loop right (o other *%estion is so "hat do ) need to do Where do ) need togro" in my lie What is my ne't phase What do ) need to de!elop What proects

"o%ld gi!e me more certainty What relationships can ) $%ild to gi!e me more certainty

?oes that make sense

CM: es. ) think that in general it is m%ch $etter to approach lie "ith a tr%st%l

attri$%te than "ith mistr%st or s%spicions that yo% can-t tr%st. )t %st takes too m%ch

emotional energy to $e mistr%sting.

MP: 6kay. We ha!e another *%estion here. ) am ha!ing a patient "ho is getting into

depression $eca%se o a lo!e relationship. e is still in lo!e "ith his lo!er that ended therelationship $%t he had another relationship "ith a girlriend. The lo!er "as ; )-m going

to paraphrase $eca%se it is a little $it this is rom someone "ho-s a second lang%age

speaker here.

6kay. The lo!er "as ha!ing a se'%al ad!ent%re "ith a m%ch yo%nger girl "hile he "as

ha!ing a $oring relationship "ith a person he admires so he has thro"n the lo!er to the

limit so she ended it and no" he is depressed and he is trying to o!ercome the g%ilt andthe eeling o loss that looks like the cra+y eight $eca%se he "as going n%ts "hen he has

still $oth o them and the relationship "ith the lo!er "as so ; the relationship "ith the

lo!er "as there are t"enty years dierence. (o ho" do yo% help someone to o!ercomethe cra+y eight and $asically looks like t"o %nhealthy relationships at the same time

$roken %p

CM: This is a diic%lt *%estion "hen yo% are ha!ing a d%plicito%s relationship like this


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to t"o people at the same timeK yo% o$!io%sly make yo%rsel open or this kind o

sit%ation. (o ) think that yo% can help the person to ig%re o%t "hat "as the lesson that

they learned. What do they need to do dierently ne't time

MP: That-s nice. ep. ='actly. (o yo% need to mo!e the person pass the ; yo% kno" i

they "ere making mistakes and setting themsel!es %p in a messed %p sit%ation then theyneed to make a decision regarding that sit%ation. )-m s%re i he "ants to go $ack into a

more scre"ed %p triads "ith all sorts o people he can.

CM: Gight.

MP: ) mean scre"ed %p relationships are al"ays a!aila$le i yo% get into it again or he

has to decide that it "asn-t good or him.

CM: Gight. (o that the point is that instead o %st looking at the sadness o it to look at

"hat "as the lesson that he learned.

MP: Hh,hmm. reat.

CM: (o that makes it a positi!e thing the lesson.

MP: reat. (o "e ha!e another *%estion here. )s it possi$le that yo% ha!e a to%gh needin one area o yo%r lie or in a circle o people let-s say amily and a dierent need "hen

yo% are at "ork

CM: es ) think so. What do yo% think Mark

MP: eah ) think that yo% ha!e dierent conte'ts in yo%r lie dierent r%les.

CM: ?ierent conte'ts that yo% ha!e yo%-ll ha!e dierent needs that are more

important. o% kno" Tony %sed to teach that no that yo%-ll al"ays ha!e the needs in the

same order in e!ery sit%ation $%t no" he-s changed and ) think that no" he teaches thatthe order o the needs and the !ehicles change in dierent stages o lie and so it also

changes in dierent conte'ts in dierent social conte'ts.

MP: Also dierent areas o lie. (o yo% co%ld $e in a !ery challenging signiicant,$ased"ork place and then yo% come home and yo% need to connect. And so some people that-s

transition that-s !ery diic%lt or some people. (ome people "ill $e to%gh at "ork then

they come home and they-re to%gh "ith their spo%se. And this happens "ith men "ho"ere in high,press%red $%siness or an attorney or something like that. They come home

and they e'pect e!eryone to report to them %st as i they "ere still at the company and i

the "ie or the girlriend is %ncertain a$o%t something the g%y gets angry and so orth.And so that "o%ld $e an e'ample o "here yo% are meeting yo%r needs in dierent areas

o yo%r lie and yo% need to ad%st to meeting those needs in a dierent "ay. o% meet

connection at home and signiicance in a dierent "ay at "ork and don-t come home and

$e an attorney "here a prosec%tor "ith yo%r "ie. Gight


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CM: ='actly.

MP: And the second thing is that some people do the opposite "here they "ork their!ery to%gh at home and then they come home and they collapse and they don-t ha!e any

o the $ack$one and energy and the ierceness that they ha!e at "ork and there-s a total

disconnect and that-s also some place "here yo% need to do a little $it o "ork so orinstance someone "ho is the C=6 and "orks all day managing people and comes home

and %st collapses and can-t think in terms o "hat the amily needs ne't. (o those are

t"o e'amples o "here people meet their needs in dierent areas o lie dierentamo%nts.

CM: es.

MP: (o "e ha!e a *%estion here one moment. ey there. o% ha!e a *%estion

2inda: eah. i.

CM: i.

2inda: ello. This is 2inda rom ("eden.

CM: i 2inda.

2inda: ey are yo% okay )t-s me then. (o ) "as thinking a$o%t at "ork at my

psychiatric department. Well not mine $%t the hospital-s. ) ha!e this client a patient.

e has no eelings sort o emotionless yeah dilemma. e has $een an epileptic and heh%rt himsel so he is paraly+ed rom his "aist do"n and all the years no" he elt like no

emotions and ) %st don-t kno" ho" can yo% reach someone that doesn-t eel ali!e. o%

kno" "hat ) mean

CM: )s there one thing that he likes to do

2inda: Well ) asked him and $eore he had something he liked to do $%t he doesn-t eel

he "ants to do anything anymore.

CM:


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relationship is like and pro$a$ly he is s%ering $eca%se that relationship is so $ad. And

so may$e i yo% see at home i yo% go to the home and speak "ith the parents may$e

yo% "ill ind that they are a good reso%rce or him may$e yo%-ll ind that there issomething that yo% can impro!e in his e!eryday lie. )t-s !ery diic%lt "ith a patient like

that i yo% %st speak to him $eca%se he "ill not gi!e yo% eno%gh inormation.

2inda: o he-s sort o holding himsel.

CM:


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diic%lt his parents are in order to $e a$le to help him.

2inda: 6kay.

CM: And so yo% "ant to talk to the parents %st to see ho" diic%lt people they are.

2inda: 6kay. eah that-s the "ay to go.

CM: And $eca%se ) think that a man like that i yo% say that yo% "ant to enlist theparents- help he is going to say no ) don-t "ant them to help me.


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CM: o% ha!e to look into that $eca%se ) don-t ha!e to tell yo%. o% kno" that dierent

people respond dierently to medications and some o those medications or epileptics

can kill the emotions.

2inda: es. A$sol%tely. eah. ood ad!ice.

CM:


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2inda: eah.

MP: Then the second thing is once yo% ha!e some sense o the person yo% can dig. )t-s$asically like inding the spark. o% "ant to ind o%t rom the parents "hat he enoys

"hat he likes doing. =!eryone "ho is $lank and passi!e there is some "ay that they are

either ha!e met their needs or meeting their needs ; their other needs. o% ha!e to$elie!e that. There are (i' %man eeds and e!eryone is meeting them someho". (o it

is a little $it o digging to ind that. And then it is a com$ination o inding the spark and

ele!ation strategy "here yo% can take the person to the ne't yo% kno" yo% can dig o%tand once yo% kno" o something a$o%t someone like that. o% ha!e a reerence. (o i

yo% ind o%t that he "as a r%g$y player "ell yo% can tease him and yo% kno" ) mean

yo% can mess aro%nd and say hey so ho"-s my r%g$y player today. That kind o thing

2inda: eah.

MP: =!en little things like that. They really shit the identity and shit the state and shit

the relationship in a lot o "ays then yo%-ll start to get the sense o the ne't thing that-sa!aila$le or yo% to ele!ate the person or ind the spark. ?oes that make sense

2inda: eah. A$sol%tely. Thank yo%.

MP: (o yo% ha!e to get o%tside o that like an enclosed point is great. (ometimes yo%ha!e to get o%tside o the conte't in "hich yo% introd%ce the person. )t-s not as hard as it

seems. We-re not %sed to doing that to making that phone call and inding o%t someone-s

home lie !ers%s their "ork lie !ers%s their lie at a hospital $%t it gi!es yo% tons o

le!erage. People aren-t %sed to yo% kno"ing that. When yo% kno" that yo% ha!e allthese ne" "ays all these reso%rces that yo%-!e $ro%ght into the con!ersation. Who

kno"s may$e he-ll $ecome may$e also yo% can orient him to this lie stage once he is at

that point. ind o%t "hat are things that "o%ld really $e good or him in the ne't i!eyears. What "o%ld the %t%re look like or him that he co%ld $e e'cited a$o%t

CM: And i he "ants to $e an instr%ctor like that o$!io%sly he "ants to contri$%te and"ants to help other people.

2inda: Hh,hmm. eah.

MP: eah. (o the lie stage one o the key parts o the lie stage is inding the

compelling %t%re or the person $eca%se people ha!e yo% kno" in a lie stage that

people respond to compelling %t%res "hen they are in a lie stage. (o i yo% asksomeone "ho in their lie stage yo% ask them so "hat are things going to $e like in three

to i!e years or yo% o% kno" people i they are in a good place then they ha!e a

sense o yeah yeah ) got to "ork on this and in three years ) "ill $e a$le to do this. o%no" %nderstand And so i yo% can get into that then once yo% %nderstand that that

translates into action steps and yo% can ha!e him starting to "ork to"ards the %t%re.

CM: o% kno" something that ) like to say to a person like that is that e!en tho%gh his


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$ody can-t mo!e that m%ch $eca%se he is in a "heelchair his mind can tra!el any"here.

2inda: eah.

CM: And %se metaphors like that.

2inda: es. Hpliting.

CM: All right. Thank yo% 2inda. Thank yo% !ery m%ch.

2inda: Thank yo% so m%ch.

MP: All right. A$sol%tely.

CM: Thank yo%.


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that "ere made and deects "ith it things that yo% "o%ldn-t do again and that is kind o

"here the person needs to go in order to learn.

CM: ='actly.

MP: All right g%ys. (o it is ) think it is time to say good,$ye. 2et %s %nm%te.

CM: o$ody has another *%estion

MP: And "e-ll see yo% g%ys ne't "eek. 6h do yo% ha!e any more *%estions eel ree

to ask.

CM: (ome$ody said yes. We co%ld do a *%ick one.

MP: 6kay. 6h yes. 6kay (yl!ie.

(yl!ie: 6kay. (orry sorry. ) %stL

MP: o%-re %nm%ted. o or it.

(yl!ie: eah. ) %st reali+ed ho" great my hand %st a !ery *%ick one regarding this ho"

yo% Cloe "ere dealing "ith the ather ; "ith Amy-s ather that yo% p%lled him yo% kno""e need to kno" yo%r da%ghter needs to kno" i yo% are dead or ali!e and my sons they

are se!en and ten years old and their ather disappeared rom their lie practically o%r

years ago. And they seem to kno" that $%t sometimes they still ask and he once in a

"hile call and ho" do yo% $reak this ne"s to a se!en and a ten,year,old $oy that theirather is practically dead or them and that "o%ld $e the $est to handle it.

CM: o $eca%se he calls rom time to time right

(yl!ie: Well once a year.

CM: 6kay yo% kno" ) "o%ldn-t say that he is dead or anything like that. ) "o%ld say

that some athers are good athers o $a$ies $%t !ery $ad athers o older children. (ome

athers are $ad athers o older children and !ery good athers o teenagers. (ome athers

only $ecome good athers "hen the children are ad%lts. (o yo% don-t kno" "hat is goingto happen.

(yl!ie: o. ) only kno"L

CM: And so lea!e it open or the act that he co%ld change and all o a s%dden come $ack

and so he might $e a good ather o ad%lt children. ?on-t close the door completely.

(yl!ie: What do )L 6kay $%t then ) "o%ld create a alse hope. )t is "hat my heart tells

me.


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CM: That is right $%t don-t do it "ith a great hope.


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MP: 6kay g%ys. ep. 6kay. ood,$ye g%ys. Talk to yo% ne't "eek.

4 - Intro - Module 4 - Tahnee - Teleclass - Transcript

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