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1Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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-YSRVKK-AKG1N1N1200
(MR CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
Q No 46
MR CHAIRMAN Question Hour (Interruptions) Question
No46 Mr Ramdas Athawale (Interruptions) Please sit down
(Interruptions) This is Question Hour (Interruptions)
Question No46 Questioner is not here Is there any supplementary
SHRI KTS TULSI Sir I want to ask a question It is about the United
Nations help for women and children The question really is that there
are 12 million children who die before reaching the age of five There
are 59 million children who die world over but 20 per cent of the
global infant mortality takes place in India WHO has been helping but
we are unable to make the immunisation programme of
Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) as part of the universal
immunisation programme or the Mission Indradhanush It costs about
Rs1600 to Rs3200 per dose We are the largest recipient of loans
from the World Bank amounting to 1021 billion dollars between 1945
and 2015 The largest borrower from the World Bank is also the State
of Tamil Nadu I want to ask whether for promoting gender equality
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Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
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Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
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सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
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Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
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Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
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Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
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Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
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Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
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Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
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Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
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Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
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Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
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Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
2Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
3Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
4Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
5Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-YSRVKK-AKG1N1N1200
(MR CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
Q No 46
MR CHAIRMAN Question Hour (Interruptions) Question
No46 Mr Ramdas Athawale (Interruptions) Please sit down
(Interruptions) This is Question Hour (Interruptions)
Question No46 Questioner is not here Is there any supplementary
SHRI KTS TULSI Sir I want to ask a question It is about the United
Nations help for women and children The question really is that there
are 12 million children who die before reaching the age of five There
are 59 million children who die world over but 20 per cent of the
global infant mortality takes place in India WHO has been helping but
we are unable to make the immunisation programme of
Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) as part of the universal
immunisation programme or the Mission Indradhanush It costs about
Rs1600 to Rs3200 per dose We are the largest recipient of loans
from the World Bank amounting to 1021 billion dollars between 1945
and 2015 The largest borrower from the World Bank is also the State
of Tamil Nadu I want to ask whether for promoting gender equality
6Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
7Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
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Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
3Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
4Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
5Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-YSRVKK-AKG1N1N1200
(MR CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
Q No 46
MR CHAIRMAN Question Hour (Interruptions) Question
No46 Mr Ramdas Athawale (Interruptions) Please sit down
(Interruptions) This is Question Hour (Interruptions)
Question No46 Questioner is not here Is there any supplementary
SHRI KTS TULSI Sir I want to ask a question It is about the United
Nations help for women and children The question really is that there
are 12 million children who die before reaching the age of five There
are 59 million children who die world over but 20 per cent of the
global infant mortality takes place in India WHO has been helping but
we are unable to make the immunisation programme of
Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) as part of the universal
immunisation programme or the Mission Indradhanush It costs about
Rs1600 to Rs3200 per dose We are the largest recipient of loans
from the World Bank amounting to 1021 billion dollars between 1945
and 2015 The largest borrower from the World Bank is also the State
of Tamil Nadu I want to ask whether for promoting gender equality
6Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
7Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
4Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
5Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-YSRVKK-AKG1N1N1200
(MR CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
Q No 46
MR CHAIRMAN Question Hour (Interruptions) Question
No46 Mr Ramdas Athawale (Interruptions) Please sit down
(Interruptions) This is Question Hour (Interruptions)
Question No46 Questioner is not here Is there any supplementary
SHRI KTS TULSI Sir I want to ask a question It is about the United
Nations help for women and children The question really is that there
are 12 million children who die before reaching the age of five There
are 59 million children who die world over but 20 per cent of the
global infant mortality takes place in India WHO has been helping but
we are unable to make the immunisation programme of
Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) as part of the universal
immunisation programme or the Mission Indradhanush It costs about
Rs1600 to Rs3200 per dose We are the largest recipient of loans
from the World Bank amounting to 1021 billion dollars between 1945
and 2015 The largest borrower from the World Bank is also the State
of Tamil Nadu I want to ask whether for promoting gender equality
6Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
7Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
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Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
5Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-YSRVKK-AKG1N1N1200
(MR CHAIRMAN in the Chair)
Q No 46
MR CHAIRMAN Question Hour (Interruptions) Question
No46 Mr Ramdas Athawale (Interruptions) Please sit down
(Interruptions) This is Question Hour (Interruptions)
Question No46 Questioner is not here Is there any supplementary
SHRI KTS TULSI Sir I want to ask a question It is about the United
Nations help for women and children The question really is that there
are 12 million children who die before reaching the age of five There
are 59 million children who die world over but 20 per cent of the
global infant mortality takes place in India WHO has been helping but
we are unable to make the immunisation programme of
Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) as part of the universal
immunisation programme or the Mission Indradhanush It costs about
Rs1600 to Rs3200 per dose We are the largest recipient of loans
from the World Bank amounting to 1021 billion dollars between 1945
and 2015 The largest borrower from the World Bank is also the State
of Tamil Nadu I want to ask whether for promoting gender equality
6Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
7Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
6Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
education laws policy plans and addressing the obstacles in the way
of HIV and AIDS particularly in the context of children will the
Government make it part of the universal immunisation programme
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the entire question asked
by the hon Member does not pertain to my Ministry at all It pertains
to the Health Ministry
ीमती कहकशा परवीन सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स माननीया मतरी
जी स यह कहना चाहती ह िक माननीया मतरी महोदया न इस न का जो उ र
िदया ह उसम उनह न बताया ह िक रा टरीय किष एव गरामीण िवकास बक ारा
कायारिनवत कायरकरम क अतगरत सय रा टर सगठन स िपछल तीन वष म कवल
एक बार ही सहायता ा त हई ह और पिरयोजना को उ र दश क पाच िजल
और िबहार क दो िजल म चलाया गया था लिकन पिरयोजना की धीमी गित क
कारण इसको बद कर िदया गया म माननीया मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहती ह
िक धीमी गित को तज करन क िलए इनक ारा कया कदम उठाए गए थ और
इस पिरयोजना को बद करन स पहल राजय सरकार क साथ बठ कर बात हई
थी या नही
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir the Priyadarshini
programme borrowed money for just five places in Uttar Pradesh and
7Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
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Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
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Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
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Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
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Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
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Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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Q No 46(CONTD)
two in Bihar When our Government came in I did a review of this and
we found that धीमी गित तो दर की बात there was absolutely no work on
the ground The idea was to train women to be self-sufficient to start
Self-Help Groups (SHGs) and to train them in ways that they would
be able to carry on their lives with more economic security None of
this had been done An amount of Rs31 crore had already been
spent out of Rs100 crore with absolutely no effect on the ground
Yes we consulted the State Governments We called in all the
NGOs
(Contd by KR1O)
KRSCH1O1205
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI (CONTD) We had meeting
after meeting with the bank people We consulted NABARD We did
a ground level survey We found that many of the NGOs have been
chosen for reasons other than ability to work on the ground The entire
project had very little to do with women and more to do with the
people who own the NGOs Therefore we took this decision of the
money that was wasted was wasted the rest be returned
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
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Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
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Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
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Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
8Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
SHRIMATI RAJANI PATIL Sir the reply given by the hon Minister is
totally contradictory and misleading to the House If we see the reply
it says In view of the extremely slow progress of the projedct the
Ministry closed the same Again in para (c) the Minister says For
monitoring and execution of the project the Government had set up
Monitoring Committee at the National State and District levels How
could a closed project be monitored and on what basis They are
monitoring only five districts How can a national level committee be
constituted
SHRIMATI MANEKA SANJAY GANDHI Sir five districts were
chosen by the Government before us The Monitoring Committee
was constituted by the previous Government When we came to
power we took a review of the Monitoring Committee all the NGOs
and every beneficiary There was an intensive study done so that we
did not do anything that would disturb a good programme But it
wasnt a good programme It was a very bad programme that
brought no relief to the women and to the district It didnt improve
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
9Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 46(CONTD)
anybodys lives Therefore we have decided that since it was a
national money it should be closed
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN QNo47
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
10Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
11Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
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Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
12Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
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Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
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Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
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Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
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Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
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Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
13Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
14Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
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Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
15Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया - 47
ी सािलम अनसारी माननीय उपसभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहता ह िक मतरालय और सरकारी पीएसय का आवदक को ग त
सचनाए दन क िलए अलग-अलग मापदड ह जबिक नताजी सभाष चनदर बोस
की सभी ग त फाइल सावरजिनक कर दी गई ह म माननीय मतरी जी स यह
जानना चाहगा िक secret confidential and top secret द तावज़ को
वगीरकत करन क िलए कया िनयम ह
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the question pertains to
the Commonwealth Human Rights initiative उसक सदभर म न िकया
गया ह िक Chief Central Information Commission को जो िरपोटर जाती ह
आदरणीय सद य न िजस िरपोटर को कवोट िकया ह उनक अनसार शायद वह उस
समय-रखा क अधीन नही गई म इसम यह प ट करना चाहगा िक Central
Information Commission की एक िकरया होती ह पहल public authorities की
ओर स annual basis पर िरपोटसर जाती थी लिकन अब उस quarterly basis पर
कर िदया गया ह य सारी इनफॉमशन Central Information Commission क पास
रहती ह और Central Information Commission का मल िवचार ह the
Government to ensure transparency मर ख़याल स the greatest evidence of
the Governments commitment for ensuring transparency lies in the fact
that for the first time in the history of the
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
16Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
RTI in the last ten years this Government has filled up all the ten
posts of the Information Commissioners which never happened
earlier शायद इसी कारण pendency भी रहती थी Not only that in the
Department of Personnel itself we have a Grievance Cell Now we
have started monitoring on a weekly basis and even on the basis of
the figures which I calculated last evening in the five working days
our disposal of grievances has gone up to as much as 84 per cent
We are personally calling complainants at random to verify the level of
satisfaction यह कहना उिचत नही होगा िक इसम िकसी तरह की पारदिरशता
म कमी ह बि क म आपको बताना चाहगा िक इसका िर पास बढ़ गया ह एक
कषण और लकर म इसम एक बात यह भी जोड़ना चाहगा िक जब स यह सरकार
स ा म आई उसस पहल on an average the number of grievances
recorded was two lakhs and now it is six lakhs यानी यह काम तीन गना
बढ़ गया ह The hon Chairman will be interested to hear and
appreciate this is for your kind consideration Sir एक पतरकार न यह
कहा िक कया मोदी सरकार क आन स िशकायत बढ़ गई ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN No that could be discussed separately You reply
to the question
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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31Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
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Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
17Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
डा िजतनदर िसह सर एक िमनट तो हमन आप ही की रणा स ग़ािलब क
श द म यह उ र िदया -
जब तवकको ही उठ गई ग़ािलब
कय िकसी का िगला कर कोई
(1ppsv पर जारी)
-SCHPSV-OM1P1210
डा िजतनदर िसह (करमागत) तो कहन का अथर यह ह िक िगला वहा उठ गया
जहा तवकको होती ह ( यवधान) Our response has increased and
therefore the number of grievances has increased and the pendency
has reduced
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी मरा जो कव चन ह उसका जवाब
तो मतरी जी न िदया नही व ग़ािलब का शर सना रह ह बहरहाल
( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर कव चन कया पछा गया था ( यवधान) सीकरट फाइल
कस ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए ( यवधान) लीज़ आप बठ जाइए
( यवधान)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
46Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
18Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नीरज शखर आप कछ और बता रह ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही ( यवधान) यह सवाल आपका नही ह सवाल
उनको सवाल पछन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर सर तो िफर हम लोग यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित नही नही आप उनको सवाल करन दीिजए ( यवधान)
ी नीरज शखर तो हम यहा िकसिलए बठ ह( यवधान) जब सही
जवाब आएगा तभी तो ( यवधान) जब सही जवाब नही आएगा तो
( यवधान)
ी सभापित लीज़( यवधान) आप उनको दसरा न पछन दीिजए
ी सािलम अन सारी माननीय सभापित जी माननीय मतरी जी स मरा यह दसरा
सवाल ह िपछल कछ वष म RTI क कायरकतारओ की हतया कर दी गई ह म
माननीय मतरी जी स यह जानना चाहता ह िक िपछल तीन वष म RTI क िकतन
कायरकतारओ की हतया की गई और सरकार RTI कायरकतारओ की सरकषा क िलए
कया कदम उठा रही ह तथा कया उनक पिरवार को कछ मआवजा दन पर भी
िवचार हो रहा ह या नही
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय वस तो इसका सीधा-सीधा इस न क
साथ स बनध नही ह िक िकतनी हतयाए की गई ह आपका न RTI क साथ
स बिनधत था और उसका स बनध एक अलग कानन क साथ ह उसको लकर
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
19Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
Whistle Blowersrsquo Bill इतयािद भी इस सदन क जर ग़ौर ह वह अभी कमटी क
पास गया हआ ह उसक साथ म इस नही जोड़गा परनत आपका जो िपछला
न था शायद उसका पयार त उ र नही िदया गया म आकड़ क आधार पर
उ र द रहा ह आज evidence-based era ह There has been a
reduction of 79000 in the number of RTIs filed over the last two years
and जब यह सरकार स ा म आई थी तो हमार पास 36000 appeals and
complaints थी शायद आपको उसका demarcation पता होगा Today we
talk in figures अब यह नही कह सकत िक मतरी नही जानता म जानता ह I
have the figures You can counter those figures (Interruptions)
So 39000 was the cumulative figure (Interruptions) It was the
cumulative figure because of the lack of promptness on the part of the
Information Commission which we have activated and as a result of
which this disposal has been expedited and even the number of RTIs
has gone down
ी राजीव श सभापित महोदय RTI परी तरह लाग हो लोग उसका फायदा
उठाए इस कानन को लाग करन क पीछ भी बिनयादी मशा यही थी िक आम
आदमी की जो िशकायत और सम याए ह उनका िनराकरण हो सक म इन
सब क साथ सहमत ह िक इसको और अचछी तरह लाग िकया जाए लिकन
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
29Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
30Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
31Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
32Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
20Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
सर म एक सवाल मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक कया उनको सजञान ह िक
इसका जबदर त िमसयज़ भी हो रहा ह और लोग जमकर इसका गलत फायदा
भी उठा रह ह लोग न तो काडर छपा रख ह जस कोई designation हो- lsquoRTI
Activistrsquo इस तरह स लोग को लकमल भी िकया जाता ह बड़ फायद िलए
जात ह पस कमाए जा रह ह यह सब रोकन क िलए व कया काम कर रह ह िक
इस तरह की जो गितिविधया या हरकत ह उनको रोका जा सक और कानन
की जो असली मशा ह उसको परा िकया जा सक
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य की िचनता उिचत ह और
इस िवषय का सजञान भी िलया गया ह I am glad that across the lines
सबको इसकी िचनता ह हमार पास इस समय जो िनयम ह उनक अनसार
कछक पन टीज़ रखी गई ह िजनम अिधक स अिधक 25000 तक का जमारना
इतयािद ह परनत आपकी बात हमार धयान म आती ह िक शायद कछ और
ावधान इसम लान की गजाइश रहती हो िजसक ऊपर आग चलकर िचनता की
जा सकती ह और उसका सजञान िलया जा सकता ह
ी नरश अगरवाल माननीय सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी
स खास तौर पर कहना चाहगा िक यह सतय ह िक यह कानन अमिरका क दबाव
म िहनद तान म लाग हआ तो म पहल यह जानना चाहगा िक हमार पड़ोस क
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
46Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
21Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
जो दश ह पािक तान बगलादश नपाल और ीलका कया वहा यह कानन
लाग ह या नही दसरा
MR CHAIRMAN This is not fair (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल अगर यह उन दश म लाग हmdashम इस कारण यह पछना
चाहता ह मरा कहना ह िक मन जान-बझकर शर म जो कहा िक अमिरका क
दबाव म इस दश म यह कानन
MR CHAIRMAN Donrsquot say that (Interruptions) That is not fair
(Interruptions)
ी जयराम रमश सर यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान)
ी जयराम रमश यह िब कल गलत बात ह ( यवधान) यह िब कल
गलत बात ह ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल आप कौन होत ह बोलन वाल ( यवधान) आप मतरी
नही ह ( यवधान) कया आप अब मतरी ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji one minute (Interruptions)
ी नरश अगरवाल य कौन ह ( यवधान) य कोई िमिन टर ह
( यवधान) इनह गलतफहमी ह िक य िमिन टर ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji let me handle this (Interruptions)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
22Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी नरश अगरवाल जनता न िनकाल कर फक िदया और अभी भी य िमिन टर
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Nareshji the law was made by this Parliament and
let us leave it at that
(Followed by NRBIQ)
VNK-NBR1Q1215
ी नरश अगरवाल सर म तो पछ रहा ह मरा यह मानना ह हो सकता ह िक
म गलत ह लिकन मन पछा िक िहनद तान क पड़ोस क इन दश म यह लाग ह
या नही ह जसा िक राजीव शकल जी न कहा िक RTI और PIL य दोन इस
दश क िलए बहत बड़ी सम या हो गए ह और इसक अतगरत तमाम िवभाग छट
ह लिकन जो नही भी छट ह उनम स कछ िवभाग न भारत सरकार को िलख
कर भजा ह िक हम भी RTI स म िकया जाए कय िक दश क तमाम सीकरटस
RTI क माधयम स लीक हो रह ह अगर यह बात सही ह तो यह कौन-कौन स
िवभाग न िलखा ह
डा िजतनदर िसह सभापित महोदय आदरणीय सद य क धयान म होगा िक
जब यह ावधान लाया गया था तब सदन की ओर स सवरस मित स लाया गया
था जसा िक आपन कहा और शायद इसक पीछ there must have been a
noble intention of right to information िक तयक नागिरक को जानकारी का
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
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Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
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-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
23Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
अिधकार रह उसका िकस कार स सही उपयोग हो इसक ऊपर िकरया
बनाई जा सकती ह और समय-समय पर review भी की जा सकती ह उसक
अितिर कछक ऐस कषतर ह िजनक िलए यह ावधान रखा गया ह िक उसकी
जानकारी उपल ध नही कराई जाएगी इसक तहत सकशन (8) क अतगरत
sovereignty and integrity ह और सकशन (24) क अतगरत securities issues
आत ह इस कार सरकार न अपनी ओर स इसम कछक मापदड रख ह िक
कौन-सी जानकारी दी जानी चािहए और कौन-सी जानकारी नही दी जानी
चािहए परत जहा तक इसक िमसयज का सबध ह उसक ऊपर िवचार करन
की गजाइश हो सकती ह( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल सर मन पछा था िक यह पड़ोस क दश म लाग ह या नही
ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN That is a separate matter
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir actually I am assigned only to talk about
the Government of India not for the Government of Sri Lanka
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर हमार बाकी सािथय न भी कछ भावना य की
ह हम भी सरकार म थ और दोन सदन न RTI एकट को पास िकया
पारदिरशता क िलए हम सब सहमत ह और होना भी चािहए एक बदलत हए यग
म और आज क वातावरण म पारदिरशता महतवपणर ह लिकन साथ-साथ यह भी
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
46Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
24Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
दखना जररी ह िक इसका दरपयोग न हो जसा िक सभी सािथय न कहा िक
इसका दरपयोग हो रहा ह
सर मझ मालम ह िक सरकारी अिधकारी जब िनणरय लन की िकरया म
बठत ह तो उनक िदमाग म िनणरय कया लना ह वह तो बाद की बात होती ह
RTI क तहत उसम स कया िनकलगा यह बात उनक िदमाग म पहल गजती ह
बाद म वह िनणरय लन की कोिशश करता ह इस तरह स objectivity खतम हो
गई ह इसक बार म कई बार चचार सरकार क भीतर भी होती ह मझ मालम ह
म यह नही कहना चाहगा िक मरी िकनस बात हई लिकन सभी क मन म इसक
बार म िचता ह िक हमन यह कानन बहत ज दबाजी म बना िदया
( यवधान) इसक बार म भी कही न कही चचार हई ह( यवधान)
ी सभापित आपका सवाल कया ह
ी फ पटल चयरमन सर म सरकार स यह पछना चाहता ह िक जब
आपन यहा पर कई लोग की भावना सनी ह तो कया इस कानन म कछ बदलाव
करग कय िक इसम कोई locus नही ह कोई भी आदमी दस रपए भरकर
कोई भी जानकारी ा त कर सकता ह चाह वह कोई पनवाड़ी हो या कोई
चायवाला हो वह भी इस दश की िमसाइल िकसन बनायी यह जान सकता ह
( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is the question
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
25Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
ी फ पटल मन उस भावना स नही पछा ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question
ी फ पटल अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN We dont need a lecture on this
ी फ पटल सर अगर गलती स बोला गया ह ( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN What is your question Please ask your question
no deviation
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL There is no disrespect to the hon Prime
Minister It is an honour But he has become the Prime Minister
(Interruptions)Now he has to answer somebody else
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that your question
ी फ पटल जी नही सर
MR CHAIRMAN Then please ask your question
ी फ पटल सर आज कोई भी यि इसका सहारा लकर अगर िमसाइल
ोगराम क बार म िकसी और बड़ी बात क बार म िकसी इटरनशनल िरलशनस
क बार म या िकसी सीकरट document क बार म जानकारी चाहता ह then
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
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37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
26Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 47(CONTD)
there must be some restriction The locus of person has to be
known(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN Is that a suggestion or a question
SHRI PRAFUL PATEL So my question is Is the Government willing
to consider bringing amendment to the RTI Act so that it becomes
more objective and practical
DR JITENDRA SINGH Mr Chairman Sir the hon Members
concern is well taken This will be kept in mind And to the earlier
observation made by him that this might cut down the initiative of
officer I would say that the Government is equally concerned I think
this is evident from the fact that the Prevention of Corruption
(Amendment) Act 1988 that has been brought in by the Government
includes section 17 to replace section 6(a) of the DSP Act wherein the
permission to proceed against an officer was sought only in case of
Joint Secretary and above Now this will be mandatory for all
officers
(CONTD BY RL1R)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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30Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
31Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
32Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
27Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
-NBRRL-DS12201R
Q No 47(CONTD)
DR JITENDRA SINGH (CONTD) So we are equally concerned that
there should not be anything done which cuts down or intimidates or
causes unnecessary harassment to any officer or reduces his initiative
(Ends)
28Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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30Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
31Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
32Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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31Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
32Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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33Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
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Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
34Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
35Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
36Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
37Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
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Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
38Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48
MR CHAIRMAN Now Question No 48
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir through you I would like to draw the
attention of the Government that Jagatsinghpur District of Odisha has
a large concentration of Scheduled Caste population and it has seen
rapid industrialization also Sir over the years there is a major port
there there is a major oil refinery there there are a number of
industries there The district administration has sent a proposal to set
up a Kendriya Vidyalaya there which has been long-pending I would
like to know from the hon Minister since there are a number of
Central Government offices there what she is doing about the
proposal and what action she has taken on it
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to bring to the
notice of the hon Member that on the 3rd February 2016 the district
administration has written to us stating that they do not have 10 acres
of land to set up a Kendriya Vidyalaya and hence the Kendriya
Vidyalaya Sangathan (KVS) is now communicating with them to
understand how we can facilitate this demand in the district Hence I
would Sir through you impress upon the hon Member to use his
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
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Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
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Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
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Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
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Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
39Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
good offices to engage with the district administration and in fact
help us fulfill this desire of the citizens of the district
MR CHAIRMAN Now your second question
SHRI RANJIB BISWAL Sir the Minister has given me the
responsibility I will come back to her in one monthrsquos time But I
need an assurance that she will work on that My second question is
that there are a number of seats lying vacant in the Kendriya
Vidyalayas and Navodaya Schools where the local students are not
allowed to take admission Sir I would like to request the Minister to
make a provision so that the local students are given an opportunity to
get admission or a reservation of 50 per cent is given to the local
people so that the students can get admission
MR CHAIRMAN That is not your question
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would only say to the hon
Member as I am sure every Member in this House and the other House
is aware that we have increased the quota for every hon Member of
Parliament now to at least give entrance into Kendriya Vidyalayas
But the challenge with regard to Navodaya Vidyalayas is this that the
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
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Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
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Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
40Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
students who get admitted into Navodaya Vidyalaya have to do so
through an entrance exam because we want to give preference to
students from rural India and especially those from weaker sections
of the society Hence we ensure that all the seats that are
demarcated for students in Navodaya Vidyalaya are actually 100 per
cent filled
DR KP RAMALINGAM Sir in the Ministerrsquos statement the third
paragraph says ldquoOpening of one Navodaya Vidyalaya in each district
of the country Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas (JNVs) have been
sanctioned in 576 districts located in 36 StatesUTs (except Tamil
Nadu)rdquo Why is it Why has the Government of India omitted Tamil
Nadu Can the Minister explain in detail whether the State
Government has rejected it or not accepted it or why it has happened
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir I would like to through you
bring to the attention of the hon Member that the State Government
has not accepted setting up of Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas within
the State That is the position that has been unchanged with regard to
the State till now in its communication with the Government of India
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
46Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
41Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Now Shri D Raja
SHRI D RAJA Sir I wanted to put the same question
MR CHAIRMAN All right Shrimati Jharna Das Baidya
ीमती झरना दास ब सर हर िडि टरकट म एक कनदरीय िव ालय होगा यह
सही बात ह लिकन म माननीय िमिन टर को ितरपरा क बार म बताना चाहती ह
िक वहा एक िडि टरकट म तीन कनदरीय िव ालय ह दसर िडि टरकट म एक
िव ालय ह और तीसर िडि टरकट म एक िव ालय ह वहा आठ िडि टरकटस म
स पाच िडि टरकटस म अभी तक कोई कनदरीय िव ालय नही ह जबिक वहा 31
परसट टराइबल पीपल रहत ह वहा का उदयपर िडि टरकट िजस गोमती
िडि टरकट भी कहत ह वहा क िलए सकशन भी हआ लिकन आज तक वह ए व
नही हआ ह म यह जानना चाहती ह िक वह कय ए व नही हआ और वह कब
तक चाल हो जाएगा
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir through you I would like to tell
the hon Member that it is not essential to have a Kendriya Vidyalaya in
every district Kendriya Vidyalaya can only be opened depending on
the Central employees who are stationed in that district including
Defence personnel and since it is their deployment and placement in
districts which becomes the pre-requisite to opening a Kendriya
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
46Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
42Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
Vidyalaya hence proposals from districts and States are looked upon
only in conjunction with that particular rule I would also like to
highlight the concern expressed by the hon Member especially for
children who come from the tribal community
(CONTD BY KGG1S)
-RL-KGG-SC1S1225
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI (contd) In fact Navodaya Vidyalaya
caters to a lot of children from the tribal community I am sure the
hon Member along with others in the House today would appreciate
a good news that I would like to share that Jawahar Navodaya
Vidyalaya students particularly SCST children and children from
weaker sections were particularly given help of special classes so that
they can put up their candidature in competitive examinations
especially the IIT-JEE I have just received news that children who
participated in centres in Bengaluru and Pune after this special
intervention have achieved a hundred per cent result So I would like
to congratulate those students For the first time Sir these students
from the tribal community from the weaker sections of the society
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
43Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
have complete fee waiver in the IIT system including children
irrespective of their category whose family earning is less than Rs 1
lakh a year The fees would be waived off in IITs completely thereby
we are facilitating the children who are economically challenged and
socially challenged to learn in the best technology institutions of the
country
ी अजय सचती सर म माननीय मतरी जी स जानना चाहता ह िक कया
सरकार इस साल महारा टर म कोई नय कनदरीय नवोदय िव ालय खोलन जा
रही ह
SHRIMATI SMRITI ZUBIN IRANI Sir as I said in my answer before
Kendriya Vidyalaya is only opened looking at the deployment of
Central staff including personnel from the Defence the para-military
forces also depending on the sponsoring authority which can be the
State Government Once such a proposal comes it is scrutinized duly
by the Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan With regard to Navodaya
Vidyalaya we are cognizant of the fact that there might be proposals
of the districts not only in Maharashtra but also across the country
which are currently not covered and donrsquot have a Navodaya Vidyalaya
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
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47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
44Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 48(CONTD)
The hon Finance Minister in his Budget Speech in fact has
given us the financial support to open up over 60 new Navodaya
Vidyalayas in this current year and we are hopeful that in this current
year then that gap of 60 centres will be bridged by the Government
of India
(Ends)
45Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
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Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
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Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
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Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
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Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
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Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
47Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
48Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
49Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
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Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
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Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
50Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
51Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
सखया 49
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद माननीय सभापित महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स मन
जो सवाल पछा था उसका उ र सही नही िदया गया ह इनह न बताया ह िक
सय जाच दल भारतीय पकष ारा साझा की गई सचनाओ का म याकन कर
रहा ह यह िवरोधाभास हआ ह चिक चाह पठानकोट हमला हो चाह म बई
हमला हो चाह भारतीय ससद पर हमला हो सभी म जवान शहीद होत ह
महोदय गरीब िकसान का लड़का फौज म भतीर होता ह सना म भतीर होता ह
सरकार लगातार वातार कर रही ह िफर भी इस पर कोई अकश नही लग रहा ह
और हमार दश क जवान शहीद हो रह ह दश की स पि बरबाद हो रही ह म
इनस सवाल करना चाहता ह िक पठानकोट हमल क बाद पािक तान की िवदश
नीित क मामल म कया कनदर सरकार ारा सवरदलीय बठक बलाए जान की
कोिशश की गयी ह िजसस पठानकोट पर हमला करन वाल आतकवािदय क
िखलाफ कायरवाही की जा सक मरा सीधा सवाल ह िक कया इस तरह की कोई
बठक बलायी गयी या नही बलायी गयी और कया इस सबध म कोिशश की गयी
िक दोिषय को सज़ा िमल
ी सभापित आप जवाब सन लीिजए
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह सर सरकार का काम ह अपन काम को आग
बढ़ान क िलए िकसी भी कार क तरीक को अपनाना इस काम क िलए कई
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
52Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
तरह की चीज़ को िकया गया ह आपको पता होगा िक जो Joint Investigation
Team आयी थी पहली बार ऐसा हआ ह िक ( यवधान)
ी नरश अगरवाल व पछ रह ह िक सवरदलीय बठक बलायी गयी या नही
उनका सीधा सा कव चन ह
ी सभापित जवाब सन लीिजए( यवधान)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह Joint Investigation Team आयी ह पहली
बार पािक तान स एक cooperative attitude क अदर ऐसा हआ
ह( यवधान)
MR CHAIRMAN Let the Minister continue
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीकिसह जहा तक सवरदलीय बठक का सवाल ह
सवरदलीय बठक अभी तक नही बलायी गयी ह जब उसकी जररत पड़गी उस
समय बला ली जाएगी
(1टी-जीएस पर आग)
-KGGDC-GS12301T
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर माननीय मतरी जी मर न का जवाब नही द
पाए ( यवधान)
ी सभापित आप न पिछए
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
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Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
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Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
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Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
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Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
53Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी िवश भर साद िनषाद सर म माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक
पािक तान क िवदश सिचव एजाज अहमद चौधरी और भारत क िवदश सिचव
एस जयशकर क बीच म कल हई वातार म पठानकोट हमल सबधी दोिषय पर
काररवाई करन और भिव य म पािक तान ारा सीज़फायर का उ लघन न करन
और आतकवादी घसपिठय पर रोक लगान सबधी म को वातार म शािमल
िकया गया ह जो दोन दश क सिचव की वातार हई ह कया उसम पािक तान
जो सीज़फायर का उ लघन कर रहा ह और पठानकोट हमल क म को वातार म
शािमल िकया गया ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह चयरमन सर सबस पहल तो यह प ट करना
जररी ह िक हमार फॉरन सकरटरी क बीच और पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी
क बीच म कोई औपचािरक बात नही हई ह पािक तान क फॉरन सकरटरी यहा
पर Heart of Asia conference क तहत आए थ और िश टाचार क नात
बातचीत हई ह इस िश टाचार को औपचािरक बातचीत न माना जाए
MR CHAIRMAN Shri Anand Sharma
ी नरश अगरवाल दोन क बीच म कया बातचीत हई ह ( यवधान)
आिखर इस सबध म कोई वातार तो हई होगी
ी सभापित आप बठ जाइए जब व कह रह ह िक नही हई तो बात खतम हो
गई ( यवधान)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
54Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Hon Chairman Sir the Ministers reply
actually hides more than what it conveys We know that the
relationship between India and Pakistan is complex There are
historical reasons and the two countries have to engage in talks to
reach an understanding and to build an environment where there can
be a better relationship Therefore in the background of what has
happened and the reply -- particularly I am referring to paras 3 4 and
5 of the Ministers reply -- give an impression that everything is
perfectly normal between the two countries particularly after the two
Prime Ministers have met repeatedly Therefore I would like to ask
post-Ufa which has been referred to in para 3 what was the
understanding reached which convinced us and particularly after the
two NSAs met in Bangkok on 6th December that assured the Prime
Minister of India -- I wish if he was here -- as Government claims to
make an impromptu visit sudden impromptu visit a halt on way back
to India from Kabul to Lahore to wish him on his birthday It is hard to
accept of those who are conversant with diplomacy and the conduct
for(Interruptions)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
55Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir one moment Therefore there must
have been some understanding reached that the entire establishment
of Pakistan that means the Government the Army was endorsing
the process that convinced us to believe
And related question to that Sir is since the
Minister(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN One question please
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I am confining myself purely to the
question and the reply About the JIT visit there have been
contradictory statements after the return of the JIT which included ISI
representatives I would like to know from the Government Sir
through you whether we have also sought access to interrogate
Maulana Masood Azhar our NIA team to go to Pakistan since JIT
was accepted and welcomed What is Pakistans response in this
regard Are you assured of the access to be given to interrogate and
Pakistan accepting that its radicals were involved
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
56Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir let me answer the second
question first So far as we are concerned our High Commissioner
conveyed formally to Pakistan Foreign Ministry that the terms of
reference for the visit are broadly agreed to with the proviso that they
would be on the basis of reciprocity and agreed and followed in
accordance with the extant legal provisions This has been very
clearly conveyed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan that
subsequently what has come in newspapers we are not concerned
with So far as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan is
concerned it has not denied the reciprocity issue
(Followed by TDB1U)
TDB-ASC1U1235
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection
MR CHAIRMAN No Please please Listen to the Minister
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH The second point is as far as we are
concerned the JIT has gone back It has been conveyed to the
Foreign Secretary when he unofficially on a courtesy call met our
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
74Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
75Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
76Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
57Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
Foreign Secretary that they have to look into our NIA visiting Pakistan
Now he has to go back and take a formal view and convey it to us
SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD Was NIA under discussion
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Just a second
MR CHAIRMAN Please listen
GENERAL (RETD) VK SINGH Sir as regards the first question
which the hon Member has asked at Ufa centrality of terrorism
emanating from Pakistan or from areas being controlled by Pakistan
was stressed And it was an assurance that was given by the Prime
Minister of Pakistan to our Prime Minister that led to what the hon
Member brought out (Interruptions) I am quite sure after
Pakistans terror attack in Pathankot there is a considerable stress
that has been caused which after the NSAs have met on the
centrality of terrorism being the main issue JIT was permitted based
on what I said earlier
MR CHAIRMAN Thank you Now Shri Sharad Yadav
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir it is not a correct answer
MR CHAIRMAN If it is not correct you know the process
58Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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Q No 49(CONTD)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir the NSAs met before the attack
(Interruptions) I asked what understanding was there which
assured the Prime Minister that the entire establishment was
endorsing the process
MR CHAIRMAN Sharma Saheb please (Interruptions)
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He met him in an impromptu visit Sir I
asked a question and this is the House You are a new Member you
will understand the rules Sir what I have asked is that the NIA visit
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN If the answer is factually incorrect you are free to
raise it through appropriate procedures
SHRI ANAND SHARMA He has not answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN This is only a supplementary question
SHRI ANAND SHARMA Sir I seek your protection He has not
answered my question
MR CHAIRMAN If it is incorrect write to the Minister Sharadji
ी शरद यादव सभापित जी यह जो सवाल ह इसक उ र क िलए कई तरह
स सवाल पछ गए ह जो औपचािरक या अनौपचािरक वातार होती ह म िव तार
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Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
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Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
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USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
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Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
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Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
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Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
59Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
स नही कहना चाहता म कवल इतना ही कहना चाहता ह िक िसयािचन म
हमार दश क सकड़ जवान मार जात ह वह इतना बरा इलाका ह िक वहा बहत
ही खराब एनवायरनरमट रहता ह वहा पर पािक तान क लोग की भी ऐसी ही
हालत ह चिक िहनद तान क लोग की वहा खराब हालत रहती ह तो इसिलए
म आपक माधयम स सरकार स कहना चाहता ह िक जब भी कभी पािक तान क
साथ िसयािचन पर िकसी तरह की चचार हो तो पािक तान क साथ बात करक
कया उस जोन को िकसी तरह स ी िकया जा सकता ह या नही िकया जा
सकता ह वहा पर हमार दश क तथा पािक तान क सकड़ जवान मरत ह
इसिलए इस म पर दोन दश को बराबर बातचीत क िलए तयार रखना
चािहए यह म आपक माधयम स कहना चाहता ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर माननीय सद य न जो सझाव िदया ह
शीघर ही इसक ऊपर िवचार िकया जाएगा और इसम स जो अचछी चीज
िनकलकर आ रही ह उनको लाग करन की च टा की जाएगी
ी शरद यादव म यह सवाल पछ रहा ह िक िसयािचन म जो सकड़ की सखया
म इधर भी जवान मार जात ह और उधर भी जवान मार जात ह तो जब भी
िहनद तान और पािक तान की अगली वातार होगी कया उस एजड म यह मामला
रहगा या नही रहगा
ी सभापित इनह न आपस कहा तो ह िक इस पर िवचार करग
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
65Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
67Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
69Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
71Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
72Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
73Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
60Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 49(CONTD)
ी माजीद ममन महोदय माननीय मतरी जी स JIT की visit क सबध म मरा
एक सवाल ह िक िजस तरह स पठानकोट म आतकवाद की वारदात हई ह तो
ज़ािहर ह िक हमार दश म हमार कानन क मतािबक भी इस पर investigation
हआ और evidence collect िकया गया मरा सवाल यह ह िक यहा स JIT जो
भी evidence collect करक ल गई ह उसम और हमार evidence collect
करन म िकतनी similarity या िकतना difference ह दसरी बात यह ह िक JIT
जो evidence collect करक ल गई कया हमन उसका परा record रखा ह या
नही तािक व वहा जाकर उस बदलकर िकसी गलत बयानी स काम न ल
हमारी सरकार न कया इस बात का धयान रखा ह िक JIT को िदया गया
evidence हमार पास record म रह और हमार investigation और उनक
investigation म कही कोई मतभद या कोई फकर ह
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह सर म पहल तो माननीय सद य को यह
बताना चाहगा िक उनकी JIT और हमार NIA क बीच म बहत ोफशनल तरीक
स डॉयलॉग हआ ह हर चीज उस तरीक स की गई ह जस हम करत ह
(1WLP पर जारी)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
61Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
USY-LP1W1240
Q No 49(CONTD)
जनरल (सवािनव ) वीक िसह (करमागत) उनकी इकवायरी का तरीका और
हमारी इकवायरी का तरीका तकरीबन एक जसा ह एक माननीय सद य न जो
शका ज़ािहर की ह उस सबध म म उनह बताना चाहगा िक उस शका का कोई
तथय नही ह जो िरकॉडसर हमार पास ह वही िरकॉडसर उनह िदए गए उसकी
कॉपी हमार पास ह और इसम कोई िवरोधाभास नही ह
(समा त)
62Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
64Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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66Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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68Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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70Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
63Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
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Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
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PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
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Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
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Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
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Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
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Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
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Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
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QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
77Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
78Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
79Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
80Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
QNo 50
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 50 questioner not present Shri
Satish Chandra Misra
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा सभापित जी यह सवाल दिलत टडटस श ड
का ट टडटस स सबिधत ह उनस कसनडर ह आपन उनको ी-मिटरक और
पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दन स सबिधत सवाल का जवाब िदया ह श ड
का ट क जो ी-मिटरक छातर ह जो िक 9th स लकर 10 th 11 th तक क टडटस
ह उसक बाद पो ट- मिटरक टडटस ह िजनका सवाल िकया गया था आपन
अपन उस सवाल क जवाब म जो एक िल ट दी ह उस िल ट म कहा ह िक हम
टटस को इतना रपया दत ह और हमन िदया ह आपन कीम का िजकर नही
िकया लिकन आपन एमाउट का िजकर िकया आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ का िजकर
िकया म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स पछना चाहता ह िक जब आप
इस सवाल का जवाब द रह थ तो कया आपक िवभाग न उ र दश जो िक
दश का सबस बड़ा दश ह उसक बार म आपस कहा िक आपको कोई जवाब
नही दना ह या आपको जवाब िदया नही या आप सदन को जवाब नही दना
चाहत ह म यह पछना चाहता ह कय िक आप जरा सवाल का जवाब दख ल
इनह न उ र दश क बार म जो िफगर दी ह वह 000 दी ह आपन यह 000
figure 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 और 2015-16 इन साल क िलए
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की िफगर ज़ीरो दी ह आपन बिनिफिशयरीज़ क िलए जो
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
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Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
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105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
81Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
एमाउट िरलीज़ िकया ह वह भी ज़ीरो िदया ह म पछना चाहता ह िक कया
आपकी जो कीम ह उसम दिलत - यह सवाल जो उनकी पढ़ाई स सबिधत
ह उन टडटस स सबिधत ह उ र दश क य जो दिलत टडटस ह कया
आपका उनक ित यही म ह आप यह प ट कर िक उ र दश की सरकार
की न आपको कोई िल ट नही दी यिद ऐसा ह तो आप उस सरकार का खलासा
कीिजए उसकी बात किहए लिकन आप सदन क सामन इस सवाल का सही
जवाब दीिजए कय िक आपका जवाब सामन रखा हआ ह और 000 की िफगर द
रहा ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत आदरणीय सभापित जी माननीय िम ा जी स म
िनवदन करना चाहगा िक SC टडटस को जो पो ट-मिटरक कॉलरिशप दत
ह हमन उसकी रािश क और बिनिफिशयरीज़ क भी आकड़ िदए ह
( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा आपन उसको 20 ितशत घटा िदया ह आप यह भी
मान लीिजए िक 20 ितशत घटाया ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत घटाया नही ह इस साल बढ़ा िदया ह उ र दश म
SC टडटस की ी-मिटरक म जरर 000 िफगर आ रही ह लिकन उसका
मख कारण यह ह िक वहा स न तो माग आई ह न ही आकड़ आए ह जब हम
पहल धनरािश आविटत करत ह तो उसका यिटलाइजशन सिरटिफकट
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
82Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
बिनिफिशयरीज़ की सखया सिहत होता था िफर व माग करत ह और हम दत
ह ( यवधान)
ी सतीश चनदर िम ा उपसभापित जी इनका आनसर िकलयर नही ह इसका
मतलब कदर सरकार मान रही ह िक उ र दश म श ड का ट म एक भी
बिनिफिशयरी इस लायक नही ह िजसक िलए आपन मान िलया ह िक उस कोई
बिनिफट िदया जाए य लाख की सखया म ह जबिक पहल करोड़ की सखया म
थ लिकन आपन कह िदया ह िक यह िफगर ज़ीरो हो गई ह यिद उ र दश न
आपको आकड़ नही िदए तो कया आपका यह दाियतव नही बनता था िक आप
उनस यह पछ और कह िक ( यवधान) कया य बिनिफिशयरीज़ ज़ीरो हो गए
ह और अब उनकी िरकवायरमट नही रह गई ह
ी थावर चनद गहलोत िडमाड ही नही आई तो हम कया कर
ी सभापित ीमती सरोिजनी ह म
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म सभापित जी म आपक माधयम स माननीय मतरी जी स
पछना चाहती ह िक सरकार जो भी कॉलरिशप SCST और OBC टडटस क
िलए दती ह वह सही समय पर टडटस को नही िमलती ह इसक कारण गरीब
टडटस को बहत ॉ ल स का सामना करना पड़ता ह व सही समय पर टडी
लोन भी नही चका पा रह ह इसीिलए हमार ओिडशा क माननीय मखय मतरी जी
न 25116 को मतरी जी को एक िच ी िलखी थी िक 2014-15 की 12117 करोड़
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
83Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
की कदरीय सहायता अभी तक िरलीज़ नही हई ह
(1XAKG पर जारी)
-USYPK-AKG1X1245
ीमती सरोिजनी ह म (करमागत) सभापित महोदय म माननीय मतरी जी स
यह जानना चाहती ह िक सरकार कब तक यह फड release करगी तािक
एससीएसटी बचच को scholarship ठीक समय पर िमल सक
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर हमारा यास रहता ह िक scholarship छातर को
सही समय पर िमल पर हम यह scholarship राजय सरकार क माधयम स दत
ह जस ही नया िव ीय वषर ार भ होता ह हम जो national allocation
decided ह उसक िहसाब स पहली िक त जारी कर दत ह बाद म जब दसरी
िक त क िलए उनकी िडमाड आती ह और जो िपछली धनरािश उनक पास
उपल ध रहती ह व उसका उपयोिगता माण-पतर साथ म लगा कर दत ह तो
हम दसरी िक त release करत ह माननीय सद य महोदया न िजस तारीख क
पतर का उ लख िकया ह म उसको िदखवाऊगा और वहा scholarship दन की
यव था करन का काम करगा
डा दीप कमार बालमच सभापित महोदय म आपक माधयम स मतरी जी स
कहना चाहता ह िक Annexure IV म इनह न दशारया ह िक ओबीसी क िलए जो
pre-matric scholarship ह वह िकन-िकन टटस म िकतनी-िकतनी दी गई
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
84Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 50(CONTD)
ह हम झारखड की बात कर तो अभी जसा हमार साथी न कहा झारखड म
2013-14 म यह सखया ज़ीरो ह आिखर इसका कया कारण ह इसक पहल
उनह न utilization certificate and proposal क बार म कहा ह मगर इस
सखया क ज़ीरो रहन का आिखर कया कारण ह िक झारखड म 2013-14 म कोई
भी पसा नही िदया गया
ी थावर चनद गहलोत सर सभी राजय क िलए एक ही कारण ह िक अगर
वहा स िडमाड नही आती ह तो हम उनको पसा नही दत ह वहा स िडमाड
नही आई ह
ी म चनद ग ता इसका मतलब ह ( यवधान)
ी सभापित बठ जाइए बठ जाइए ( यवधान) यह आपका सवाल नही
ह ( यवधान)
SHRI V HANUMANTHA RAO Sir it is a serious issue
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN It is not your question (Interruptions) Question
51
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
85Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
86Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
87Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
88Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
89Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
90Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
91Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
92Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
93Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51
MR CHAIRMAN Questioner absent Any supplementaries
SHRI ANANDA BHASKAR RAPOLU Respected Chairman Sir the
Skill India and Stand-up India are in the campaign mode There is
every necessity for the Industrial Training Institutes to enhance the
skills of pre-matric and post-matric students We are having paucity
of the Industrial Training Institutes across the nation But it is visible
that several Government as well as private Industrial Training Institutes
are getting closed down The policy and the programme towards
maintenance and sustenance of ITIs have to be updated not only by
the Union Government but also by the State Government With its
own campaign mode the Central Government may be focussing on
that But are they taking on board State Governments to ensure up-
to-date and modern curriculum and also to sustain interests of the
students in ITIs so that ITIs are not closed down across the nation
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir the hon Member has mixed up
two issues He has talked about ITIs which is training in the formal
sector As far as hard skills are concerned there are 13000
institutions About 2500 are located in the Government sector
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
94Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
States and the Centre together and about 10000 are there in the
private sector What he is referring to is about shutting down of
training institutions I would like to bring it on the record of the House
that under AICTE there are about 1800000 seats in the engineering
colleges In the engineering colleges across the country about 85
lakh seats are vacant So those are the engineering colleges which
are shutting down and excess of capacity has been created That is
why most of these engineering colleges are shutting down and we
have received the information that almost 200 engineering colleges
have been shut So that is a matter of grave concern When we
come back to the ITIs it is a formal system set up for training
students 10th dropouts or 10th pass people we have a whole
ecosystem and we have about 13000 ITIs What he is talking today
is very important because at some point of time we have missed a
policy framework We started opening ITIs in this country in 1969
Today there are about 13000 institutions
(Contd by PB1Y)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
95Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
PB-SCH1Y1250
QNO51 (CONTD)
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (CONTD) And today 2500 blocks in
the country across the country since last 67 years do not have a
single training institute Now this is a very major concern And there
are districts in this country -- I can give examples -- which have a lot
of ITIs One district has 200 ITIs Now if you look at Palamu in
Jharkhand it has one ITI -- whether it is private or Government we
can come to that later -- but in the city of Jaipur there are 200 ITIs
So there is something which went wrong Now what we are trying to
do is -- the Government has got a policy now and we have provided a
Budget -- we are trying to bring all these uncovered blocks in this
country under a PPP model The cost of a primary stage ITI would be
around Rs 35 crores or Rs 4 crores and to make it faster we are
funding through the National Skill Development Corporation We are
giving the money some grant and a very soft loan so that the people
from the industry can come up Today the partnership of the industry
is very important जो लोग उ ोग जगत स जड़ हए ह व बार-बार कहत ह
िक हम trained manpower चािहए तो trained manpower ोवाइड करन क
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
96Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
िलए हम लोग न इड टरी को जोड़कर दश भर म इसी तरह क इ टी टस की
थापना करन का ताव बनाया ह और अब हम इस ताव को किबनट म ल
जाकर पािरत करग जो formal skilling का वरप ह उसम हमन बहत बड़
रप स apprenticeship म भी सधार िकया ह जहा तक dropouts का सवाल
ह जो लोग आठवी या नौवी पास होत ह उनम आप जो skilled work force की
बात कर रह ह we are taking them under the Pradhan Mantri Kaushal
Vikas Yojana which is short-term skilling So a structured long-term
skilling which happens in industry will go in the NCBT and then there
is structured short-term skilling which was of course an initiative of
the previous Government also However the structure was different
We are redefining it and setting up model skill centres across the
country So on the one side the informal skills will go in the skill
development centres and the formal skills will go in the ITIs or the
equivalent of that
SHRI RANGASAYEE RAMAKRISHNA Sir the conventional pattern
has been to have an ITI The boys are trained in certain conventional
trades and skills and then they go into the job market and they lose
there Why dont you ask the FICCI ASSOCHAM and such
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
97Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
organizations and corporate sector to train people for their own
particular skill requirements and take them straightway into the jobs I
think these newer methods will have to be adopted rather than
opening more and more ITIs which then throw people in the job
market
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a very pertinent question
अभी िजतन भी आईटीआई म िशकषण होत ह उनम लगभग 250 Trades ह
and out of those 250 trades there are only 10 or 12 trades which all
these institutes want to run because these are institutes which are
basically notified in public sector undertakings that if you do your ITI
from there you will get a Government job which include Fitter
Computer Operator Programme Assistant Electrician Mechanical
Welder etc They are 12 of that So most of these ITIs only run
these 10-12 trades and they do not run most of the courses which are
creating employment
On the question of industry partnership Sir the biggest industry
partnership world over -- and every country in the world has it which
possibly we have missed -- is through apprenticeship Industry gets
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
98Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
apprentices which we should also have and it is where the training
takes place For example China has about three crore
apprenticeships So most of the people who pass out from such
institutes go to the industry and train themselves irrespective of the
fact whether they get absorbed in that industry or they move out of
that industry Even Japan has about a crore We in India between
my Ministry and the HRD Ministry -- because there are two verticals
one is being looked after by the HRD Ministry and the other is being
looked after by the Ministry of Skill Development -- we only do about
three lakhs So this number is very insignificant But Sir if you
remember the 20 Point Programme of Mrs Gandhi when she had said
that we will reform the Apprenticeship Act we did that change in
2014 and it took thirty years We have removed all the shackles which
were there in the Apprenticeship Act which included imprisonment
trade-wise etc So today even if you look at the public sector
undertakings -- and this is for the consumption of Members of
Parliament -- at least in the Government where we have the public
sectors undertakings out of 50 lakh jobs which are existing in the
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
99Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
public sector with the reform policy we can have apprenticeship
between two-and-a-half per cent and upper cap of ten per cent So
around good 50000 individuals graduates post-graduates under-
graduates or those who come from the ITIs can go to the public
sector So far the public sectors ratio is miniscule Even if I have to
look at the big petroleum sector there is a big possibility The Ministry
of Mines has about 620 apprentices while its capacity is around 40000
and out of that two-and-a-half to ten per cent would be around
5000
(Contd by 1zSKC)
SKC1Z1255
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY (contd) So there is a great policy of
pushing apprenticeship and this is in the public sector Similarly if we
are able to partner the private sector the whole ecosystem of skills
hard skills and all the great training that we are talking about can
happen This can happen only through industry-association which
the Government is trying to build up
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
100Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
DR KARAN SINGH Mr Chairman the Minister has given some
useful information regarding this matter But I would like to make the
point that with the massive unemployment in this country a great
lacuna is the lack of intermediate training institutes between schools
and the ITIs Now will the Government make a massive effort in
coordination with the Ministry of Human Resource Development and
the public sector to really exponentially increase the number of
training institutes and apprentices The unemployment backlog is
growing and we are not going to be able to catch up unless that is
done Will this be a priority with the Government
SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDDY Sir this is a policy lacuna or the
mindset of the people Pardon me for putting this in the House It is a
very harsh statement Education had a distinct bias towards skill
because in the entire education system skill has been there but all of
us who have become big or important in the system though
educated are not skilled individuals So the bias of education against
skill has been in perpetuity Even when we went to the ITIs after doing
10th or 12th we cannot seek admission equivalence is not there But
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
101Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
now Smritiji has agreed and she has given a formula through the
National Open Schools For the last 67 years for all those students
who did their ITIs there was no lateral or a vertical climb as far as
opening up of further venues is concerned I am happy that for the
first time in Indian history the Ministry of HRD has integrated itself with
the Ministry of Skill Development and now these boys who are doing
their ITIs would move towards open education and they can aspire
Sir in India we do not have a lsquoProfessor of Weldingrsquo we do not
have a lsquoProfessor of Plumbingrsquo which is there across the world So
this is the difference that the aspirational aspect has been kept in
mind I have talked to the Prime Minister about it and for the first
time even students passing out from ITIs would have a grand function
and a grand convocation where they would wear robes and they
would come out and say we are also a part of the industry workforce
As far as the schooling system is concerned a mistake has been
committed That is because every skilling across the world should
have taken place in the schools Unfortunately this never became
aspirational There is an integration process We are trying to build up
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
102Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 51(CONTD)
a credit framework from 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th onwards and this
process has to begin It has to be integrated but the schools are still
not ready We are very positive about it We are trying to convince
them This workforce is actually what we are talking about The Prime
Ministerrsquos initiative to make India the worldrsquos workforce is an effort
which we are trying to do I think the process that Dr Karan Singh has
talked about has been initiated Though delayed we would achieve it
That is for sure
(Ends)
MR CHAIRMAN Question No 52 (Interruptions)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
103Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
104Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
105Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
106Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
107Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
Q No 52
PROF M V RAJEEV GOWDA Sir this question was about non-
officers being removed and the Ministerrsquos reply says that they are
reviewed and removed at the age of 50 and 55 Sir that is absolutely
too late in anyonersquos career Will the Minister commit to changing this
procedure to ensure that maybe at the age of 40 or 45 the
appropriate officers who are deemed non-performers are removed
from service and maybe the bottom five per cent of non-performers
are removed on an annual basis so as to ensure efficiency in
governance
DR JITENDRA SINGH Sir the hon Memberrsquos concern to ensure
efficiency in administration is well taken He has referred to the age
criterion which is one of the various other criteria and parameters
meant for this purpose For example we have the Fundamental Rules
56(j) which provides for premature retirement I shall not call it
lsquocompulsory retirementrsquo because that falls in another category Then
we have dismissals and deemed resignations We also have certain
other penalties based on the nature and the situation Broadly
speaking this assessment is made on the basis of two criteria (a)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
Uncorrected Not for Publication-28042016
108
Q No 52(CONTD)
performance and (b) the record of service Apart from that if there
are any specific allegations depending upon that an inquiry is
conducted and an appropriate penalty is also instituted sometimes
regardless of age So it is not necessary that this would happen only
at the age of 50 or so But having listened to what he says this will
be kept in mind
PROF MV RAJEEV GOWDA Sir the Government talked about
rotating officers working in sensitive and non-sensitive posts
(Interruptions)
MR CHAIRMAN I am afraid Question Hour is over
(Interruptions)
(Ends)
Related Documents
