Template as of: November 15, 2007governors.rutgers.edu/testing/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/...Excerpts from full transcript which follows: [Governor Florio] cared more about policy

Center on the American Governor, Eagleton Institute of Politics, Rutgers University http://governors.rutgers.edu/

Jamie Fox

Interview by Rick Sinding

July 17, 2015

Excerpts from full transcript which follows:

[Governor Florio] cared more about policy than anybody I've ever worked for

at any time, and I've worked for a number of people. He cared about policy

more than anything and that's what drove him every day. Some would say

that maybe he should have thought a little more politically about some things

and made the decisions that were more political. That may be, but you have

to give him credit for standing up and pushing what he believed. On the

education front, on the budget front, on social issues, there was no one

better. He was a great progressive governor of the state.

You know, the one thing that I disagree with most analysts about is that

pushing the assault weapon ban was what hurt him most politically. I happen

to disagree with that. I happen to believe that his pushing of the assault

weapon ban actually helped him almost win reelection. There are a number

who say just the opposite but I don't believe that.

Rick Sinding: Hello. I’m Rick Sinding. It's Friday, July 17th, 2015, here at the

Eagleton Institute of Politics on the campus of Rutgers University. With me today

for the Center on the American Governor is Jamie Fox, who currently serves as the

Commissioner of Transportation for Republican Governor Chris Christie, a position

he also held a decade earlier in the administration of Democratic Governor Jim

McGreevey, for whom he also served as chief of staff. And a decade before that, he

served as the deputy chief of staff in the administration of Democratic Governor Jim

Florio. And it's that administration that we'll focus on primarily today. Jamie,

welcome to Eagleton.

Jamie Fox: Good to see you, Rick. Thanks for having me.

Rick Sinding: Let's start with a little bit of your personal background.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Where'd you grow up? Where'd you go to school? What got you

interested in politics and government?

http://governors.rutgers.edu/

Jamie Fox interview (July 17, 2015) page 2 of 29


Jamie Fox: Well, I grew up in Elizabeth, New Jersey, the Elmora section of

Elizabeth, then went to Catholic schools there, and then went to Villanova for

college. And then after that I moved to Bergen County and lived there for quite a

long time. That's really where I started my professional career.

Rick Sinding: And how did you start your professional career?

Jamie Fox: I was asked to run a campaign for two women who were running in

District 40, which is a very Republican area and they asked me to run a Democratic

campaign there and it was the worst defeat by a Democrat for 30 years. That's how

I made my start in way up in District 40.

Rick Sinding: <laughs>

Jamie Fox: It's Cary Edwards, actually.

Rick Sinding: Yes.

Jamie Fox: And he and I became very good friends after that, and I was all of 22

at the time. And then I worked for a freeholder named Bennett Mazur who became

an Assemblyman, and Bob Torricelli when he ran for Congress and did that for a

number of years. And--

Rick Sinding: You were a political operative at this point.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: You were running campaigns.

Jamie Fox: Well, yes, I was always involved in campaigns. But I actually, I guess I

probably have that reputation. But I think that I've spent more time doing the day-

to-day government operations than the political day-to-day.

Rick Sinding: So with Assemblyman Mazur, for example.

Jamie Fox: Well, I was one of the three staff legislators had in those days.

Rick Sinding: Right.

Jamie Fox: But, and then I was the district director for Congressman Torricelli

when he was just elected to Congress in 1982.

Rick Sinding: That was a successful Democratic campaign--




Jamie Fox: Yes. That's correct.

Rick Sinding: -- against a Republican, so you must've come a long way from your

days in District 40.

Jamie Fox: Well, I didn’t, I was actually the driver. You know, in fact, you know, I

was the Jack of all trades. I did the driving. I did the follow-up notes and oversaw

the schedule and we won. It was not an expected win. It was a surprise win and I

worked for him for a number of years.

Rick Sinding: In New Jersey or in--

Jamie Fox: In New Jersey. Yes, at the time.

Rick Sinding: Not in Washington?

Jamie Fox: At that time it was in New Jersey, yes in Hackensack, New Jersey. And

then after about six years or so, I went to work for the state legislature and worked

for the Senate president at the time, John Russo, did that for about two years.

Rick Sinding: So that's on the partisan staff.

Jamie Fox: That is correct. Kathy Crotty was my boss. And then Senator

Lautenberg asked me to be his state director. I guess that was around 1990. So I

did that for a year. And then Jim Florio was elected governor and I was asked to

become the deputy chief of staff, which I obviously accepted.

Rick Sinding: So you weren't involved in the Florio campaign at all.

Jamie Fox: No, I was not.

Rick Sinding: But you must have known all of the cast of or many of the cast of

characters involved in that campaign from your working in the Lautenberg office.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Well, you know, between working for the state legislature,

working for a United States senator, a Congressman, you get to know the people

who are involved in politics and involved, more importantly, in government. And,

you know, that's how I met you.

Rick Sinding: Yes. <laughs>

Jamie Fox: It's like you’re generally on the Democratic side or the Republican side

and so I've been very lucky to have opportunities with different people.




Rick Sinding: Did you know Jim Florio at all before you came to work as governor

of chief of staff?

Jamie Fox: I did not know him well. I, of course, knew him by reputation. I had

met him a number of times when I worked for Congressman Torricelli. So yes, I did

know him. But no, I can't say that I knew him well.

Rick Sinding: So how did you get tapped as deputy chief of staff? Who came to

you and offered you the job?

Jamie Fox: Well, it was Steve Perskie, who was designated as the chief of staff

after Jim Florio won, and Doug Berman, who was the treasurer, approached me

about would I have an interest, and I obviously met with Governor Florio at the

time and, you know, after whatever decision-making they made, they offered me

the job as deputy chief of staff. There was only one at that time, now there are

most governments have more than one deputy chief of staff.


Jamie Fox: It was a very interesting position with a very interesting man.

Rick Sinding: When you took the job was it still transition or had he taken office at

that point?

Jamie Fox: It was just, he-- no I was not involved in the transition. I was involved

just, you know, from pretty much day one. I was there the first day that after he

was sworn in. But I was not involved in the transition period.

Rick Sinding: Now Steve Perskie's primary responsibility, as I recall in the first six

months or so of the administration, was dealing with the legislature.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Because he had been a former legislator and obviously, with the

large number of programs that the Florio administration was rolling out, there was a

lot of work that needed to be done with the legislature. What was your primary

responsibility as the deputy chief of staff?

Jamie Fox: Well, I think the best way to describe it is the day-to-day operations.

Everything from overseeing the schedule to overseeing who got hired and who did

government affairs and basically filling in the hiring throughout the departments

and in the governor's office. And I did, as the weeks and months went on, I spent a

lot more time working on legislative affairs for the simple reason that I had known




many of them from my days either working in the legislature or working for an

elected member of Congress.

Rick Sinding: So let's talk about those two different responsibilities. Some of our

viewers and readers of the transcript here may not be fully aware of how complex

the job it is to fill positions in an administration and how many different influences

are coming from so many different directions, geographic, ideological, political.

How does one go about doing the balancing act that is necessary to say okay, this

person will get hired to do this job and that person gets hired to do another?

Jamie Fox: Well, I don’t think there's necessarily a formula. I think that one of the

things that I've always thought that I did fairly well is be able to determine who is a

good employee or who could be a good employee and who wasn't, and I was not

afraid to fire people if it didn't work out. I think that's one of the jobs that I have.

When you're the deputy chief of staff or the number two person, sometimes you do

those dirtier deeds, so to speak.

Rick Sinding: Dirtier deeds. Right. Including in the agencies or were those

primarily left to commissioners and--

Jamie Fox: Well cabinet members, of course, have their own. And I feel very

strongly, and still do, that cabinet members should have an opportunity to hire and

fire.

Rick Sinding: Well, I would certainly understand from your present position why

you would feel that way. <laughs>

Jamie Fox: Yes. But I think that if you're going to be responsible for anything

when there is an agency, a department of government, a governor's office, a

congressional staff, whatever it may be, if you're going to be ultimately responsible

and the head person, or one of the head people for the product, the end product,

that you should have a say as to who works for you and how that place operates if

you're going to get the blame or the credit.

Rick Sinding: Now were these positions vetted primarily by you, solely by you? Did

they go up to Steve Perskie? Did they go up to Jim Florio?

Jamie Fox: It depends. It depended on the rank. Obviously, cabinet members are

always decided by a governor, certainly with Jim Florio. Jim Florio chose his own

cabinet members and there was direct access to him by any cabinet member at any

time. He was, there's no doubt about that. But I think that he also believed in

letting cabinet members do most of their senior hiring. Now there are people who

recommend people for consideration. That happens in both government and private

sector. So yes, you have that. And you also want to make sure particularly in a




Democratic administration that you have most in Jim Florio's case and Jim

McGreevey and a couple others, you know, they said they wanted to make sure

that the government looked like New Jersey, that it was representative of what New

Jersey looked like. Meaning, they wanted to make sure that it weren't just all white

men who were running the government. That there were women and minorities and

that was a very important part of our hiring practice.

Rick Sinding: Now on your other side, which was legislative work.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Obviously, in those first six months auto insurance, assault

weapons, complete reform of the education funding formula-- And a handful of

other things probably too numerous to mention, how deeply involved did you get in

either, I wouldn’t say lobbying the legislature, but in taking the administration's

case to legislators?

Jamie Fox: Well, certainly on the assault weapons ban I was very, very involved. It

was hand-to-hand combat, so to speak.

Rick Sinding: Yes it was.

Jamie Fox: There were thousands, at one point there were thousands of NRA

activists outside and the city of Trenton has never seen a demonstration like that

before and ever since.

Rick Sinding: My recollection is some of them were inside as well.

Jamie Fox: That's correct and there were a lot of broken windows and it was an

interesting time, shall we say? And it was a divisive issue. And it took all of a

number of us, and I’m very proud of my involvement in lining up some of those

votes and making sure that after we were defeated in the midterm elections and

there was an attempt to repeal the law, which we won by one vote.

Rick Sinding: The vote of a Republican senator from Atlantic City.

Jamie Fox: That's correct. That was-- that took a lot of what we'll call hand-

holding or making sure that people in elective office knew how important the issue

was. The governor went on the road and told the public why it was important. It

was the first state in the country to have the assault weapon ban. It's a great

achievement, it is, one that he does not get enough credit for. And the other issue I

was involved with heavily was - and, you know, people forget, now we have gay

marriage and we take it for granted. There was an attempt in that administration-

there was a bill actually – to say that if you were a teacher in New Jersey and

somebody said you were gay, you could be fired. It was law.




Rick Sinding: Mm-hm.

Jamie Fox: And the governor put a bill in that said you can't do that. That if you, if

you're a teacher and you happen to be gay, you have rights and you can't be fired

because of that.

Rick Sinding: Was it specifically for teachers?

Jamie Fox: That's correct.

Rick Sinding: Or was it public employees or--

Jamie Fox: Well, the public employees, by and large it was teachers. The teachers

were, so we won that only by one vote.

Rick Sinding: There's an indication of how times have change.

Jamie Fox: And it was another time he was ahead of the time and took a

courageous position and put the weight of his office behind him, and the first in the

country to achieve that, and he doesn’t get enough credit from that advancement

as well.

Rick Sinding: How much of, I mean without betraying secrets, how much of the

negotiating on the assault weapons ban, on the gay teacher issue, how much of the

negotiations with legislators was convincing them of the right of the argument and

how much of it involved horse trading of any sort in terms of okay, you give us this

vote on this and we'll find a way of repaying you or compensating you?

Jamie Fox: You know, I get asked that--

Rick Sinding: And by repay and compensate I mean, I don’t mean financially. I

mean--

Jamie Fox: Correct. I understand what you mean.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: And I get asked that question a lot and I must say, there are more

people in this business for the right reasons than people realize. The vast majority

of people in the legislature and whom we’re talking about will vote the "correct

way", because it's the right thing to do, whether it's on education, whether it's on

protecting teachers from being fired or quality education-- whatever it may be,

there's more of that. Now, having said that <laughs> there are always people who

have their political concerns that anybody who's a successful politician has to worry

about. When your name's on the ballot it's very easy for somebody like me to go to




them and say, you have to vote this way because it's the right thing to do because

my name's not on the ballot. So--

Rick Sinding: And you're not the one who's going to lose the NRA money for your

re-election campaign.

Jamie Fox: You're not the one who has to stand there in November and potentially

lose. So I think you have to understand where they're coming from and what their

concerns are and help them get there. I need to I understand you're worried about

this. And this is why I think you should vote and why it's not going to hurt you

politically or we will be there to help you when the time comes if you stand up for

us for the right things we'll be-- we'll stand up for you in a campaign. They're a

number of those conversations that take place.


Jamie Fox: I remember on a couple of issues I remember sitting across from a

legislator saying, "This is important for X,Y, and Z reasons". And sometimes you do

it because you have a relationship with them. Sometimes you do it because they

get their road paved in their districts.


Jamie Fox: You know, there's, there are different ways to get the 41 and 21 votes.

Rick Sinding: Right. Now it was already fairly obvious even in the earliest days of

the Florio administration that Jim Florio was making a calculated risk, if you will, of

spending his political capital early. Of going after some issue were, I mean certainly

auto insurance reform would not be considered especially controversial issue.

Jamie Fox: Mm-hm.

Rick Sinding: But as well, weapons definitely was the, Quality Education Act was

what you just described, which I'd completely forgotten, the teacher issue, and, of

course the raising of taxes to fund both the structural deficit that was inherited and

then the deficit that bloomed for the following year. And it became fairly obvious

fairly early on that many of these in particular, the tax issue, were exceedingly

unpopular.

Jamie Fox: Yes, they were. And there was, I believe, a decision made early on,

let's get some of the tougher decisions out of the way, such as the tax increase.

Because we know we’re going to need the revenue, so let's in the beginning of a

four-year term, let's get that behind us.




Rick Sinding: And in fact, as I understand it, there were differences of opinion

between the Senate and the Assembly as to whether as to how quickly or slowly to

undertake that.

Jamie Fox: Yes. There were disagreements, as there usually is between the

Senate and the House and their leadership as to how to proceed. A lot of it has to

do with sometimes the Assembly may be up and the Senate's not.


Jamie Fox: And all kinds of human reasons and political reasons. Though, yes,

there was a decision to do it early on. And then if we needed to go to the public and

make the case as to why we did it, we would have three and a half years, give or

take, to do that.

Rick Sinding: Were you involved in this set of strategic decisions?

Jamie Fox: Well, the decision to do that was made by the governor and the chief

of staff and I probably was not as involved. I was probably involved more in the

implementation of it.


Jamie Fox: At that point I was the newest one in the administration having not

worked in the campaign. So, the first month or so the decisions on strategy were

made by others.

Rick Sinding: Thereafter did you begin to say more?

Jamie Fox: Yes. I was one of the few people that actually stayed the entire four

years, for whatever reason. So yes, I think over time I'd like to believe that the

governor became more comfortable with me and my advice.

Rick Sinding: Now Steve Perskie left fairly quickly. I think after months, seven

months when he was appointed as the Chair of the Casino Control Commission.

Jamie Fox: Correct. Or no, he was at bench, wasn't he? Was it to the bench?

Rick Sinding: I don’t recall.

Jamie Fox: Right.

Rick Sinding: We'll have to look that up…

NOTE: Steven Perskie was an Atlantic County Superior Court Judge from

1982-1989 and again from 2001-2010. He left the bench to serve as




Governor Florio’s transition coordinator and Chief of Staff for part of 1989-

1990. He then served as Chairman of the Casino Control Commission from

1990-1994 after which he was VP and General Counsel for Players

International from 1994-1996, and in private law practice from 1996-2001.

Rick Sinding: How did you and Joe Salema work together compared to how you

and Steve had worked together?

Jamie Fox: It was very different. … I think, probably the first month of his arrival

there probably, to be honest, was a bit of an adjustment period. And after that, we

became very good friends and allies and we worked very well together.

Rick Sinding: Did you take on more of the responsibilities of working with the

legislature at that point? Or was that now shared in a different, among different set

of people?

Jamie Fox: Well, I mean obviously the chief of staff was, and the chief counsel are

always the lead with regard to the legislature. But, I did more and more as the days

and weeks and months went on. And the legislators would come to me often if they

needed something or wanted the governor to come to their district or whatever it is

on a day-to-day business they would come to me.

Rick Sinding: My recollection is at that point there weren't too many legislators

who wanted the governor to go to their district.

<Laughter>

Jamie Fox: Well, that happens sometimes.

Rick Sinding: I mean I imagine that much of the time following this whole series of

initiatives, and then following the outcry over taxes from let's say September,

October of 1990, right up until the midterm election in November of '91, most of

the administration was placed on the defensive.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: And there were a lot of very, very scared and it turns out for pretty

good reasons legislators who were looking for any possible way that they could

either distance themselves from the governor or at least try to explain to their

constituents why they had voted the way they did. How much handholding,

cajoling, political advising did you have to do along those lines with legislators for

that year?

Jamie Fox: A lot. A lot. Well, first, you did a lot of handholding where you have a

lot of discussions over how you feel their pain. You have discussions as to why




certain votes or why this is best for the state long-term. That's why I'll repeat what

I said when we opened that there are lot, vast majority of these folks are in this

business for the right reasons. So even though they know there could be political

danger or moves in, they still have to look themselves in the mirror and know they

did the right thing for the people they represent.


Jamie Fox: But, you know, the worst time I guess politically I ever felt was that

election night midterm where the Democratic legislators were virtually wiped out.

That was a bad night.

Rick Sinding: And made your job for the next years a completely different job.

Jamie Fox: Yes. I mean obviously we were weakened politically because we lost a

lot of our allies in the legislature. And we had to go out to the public and …we were

on the defensive for little bit. But this is the business of ups and downs. Sometimes

you're on the defensive, sometimes defensive, sometimes you're on the offense and

you never know from day-to-day where you're going to be.

Rick Sinding: And you mentioned earlier that in your work at the 48th District

your candidates had gotten trounced by Cary Edwards later became a friend.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Were there other Republicans with whom you have developed a

relationship that you ended up being able to take advantage of in the second two

years of the Florio administration?

Jamie Fox: Well, I wouldn't say take advantage of. I wouldn't put it in those

words.

Rick Sinding: Okay. I think perhaps that's a little--

Jamie Fox: But no this is still a business of personal relationships regardless of

party. And if you return a phone call to a senator who's a Democrat or Republican,

a return phone call is a return phone call. You know, that's when I tell people who

are coming up in government and they say, "What's the best advice you have"? I

say, "Return peoples’ phone calls". One, it shows respect and two, you build a

relationship with them. So I actually believe that I would not have my present job if

I didn't have relationships on the Republican side. If there's one thing that has

changed over the last couple decades it is that there is more partisanship and party

gets in the way sometimes.




Rick Sinding: There was a significant amount of partisanship, at least publicly, in

the last two years of the Florio administration. The Republican legislature was

asserting itself in a lot of different ways. And yet Governor Florio himself and some

other people who have been involved in the administration actually, as well as some

Republicans, have talked about how there were actually a significant number of

sometimes back channel, sometimes more public relationships that developed

during that time that actually led to some reasonably good public policy. And in fact,

Governor Florio himself talks a lot about how despite heated rhetoric of the

Assembly Speaker Chuck Haytaian and the two of them were actually able to talk to

each other and work out some compromises over that period.

Jamie Fox: Anybody who's successful, anybody who can, who wants to get

something passed to the legislature, regardless of who controls it, Democrat or

Republican, has to have those type of relationship, whether they're back channel.

You can't take this personally. You know, if somebody's going to hit you politically

over an issue it doesn't mean you cannot have dinner with them at night or have a

discussion as to how we move forward.


Jamie Fox: And Governor Florio was very good at not taking things personally. He

did not, he was beaten up a lot, New Jersey politics. We did something that turned

out to be, when you think about what he accomplished in those four years and he

didn't, he was unsuccessful in getting reelected, but I think when you look back he

was the last governor who left a surplus.


Jamie Fox: Certainly the finances of the state were far better off than any time

since. And I think a lot of people now in retrospect will look-- both parties are

looking back and saying that he did a lot more for the state than he ever got credit

for at the time.

Rick Sinding: During that four year period did you develop a personal relationship

with the governor that perhaps gave you an insight into how his mind worked, what

interested him, how, what motivated him both politically and personally?

Jamie Fox: Yes. If you work for someone for four years and such, in an office,

close proximity, I'd like to believe that we built a nice relationship then and still

have it today. I have great respect for him. He cared more about policy than

anybody I've ever worked for at any time, and I've worked for a number of people.

He cared about policy more than anything and that's what drove him every day.

Some would say that maybe he should have thought little more politically about

some things and made the decisions that were more political. That may be, but you




have to give them credit for standing up and pushing what he believed. But on the

education front, on the budget front, on social issues, there was no one better. He

was a great progressive governor of the state.

Rick Sinding: Do you think in retrospect that there are some things he could have

or should have done differently that would've made a difference in the outcome of

his reelection?

Jamie Fox: Well, you know, we all you can look back on any election, he lost, don't

forget, he only lost by 25,000 votes. So when you lose by 25,000 votes there's a lot

of would've, should've, could'ves. You know, the one thing that I disagree with

most analysts is that pushing the assault weapon ban was what hurt him most

politically. I happen to disagree with that. I happen to believe that his pushing of

the assault weapon ban actually helped him almost win reelection. I mean there are

a number who say just the opposite but I don't believe that.

Rick Sinding: Well, their argument, and if I could encapsulate it here, is that it was

the NRA that surreptitiously funded the groundswell of opposition that subsequently

became Hands across New Jersey and the whole anti-Florio movement.

Jamie Fox: That is true. That is true. But our numbers increased when we got

close to and during that reelection period. If you remember in the September,

October period he actually picked up considerable support, when Christie Whitman

said that she was for a repeal of the assault weapon ban. Her numbers fell and his

increased. I wish that issue had come up in the last 10 days rather than three

weeks out, but, you know, I've always felt that that was opposite of what most

people believed.

Rick Sinding: Were you involved in the campaign for, the reelection campaign or

were you still in the government?

Jamie Fox: No. I stayed in the government, in the governor's office.

Rick Sinding: Tell us a little about transition from the Florio administration to the

Whitman administration.

Jamie Fox: Well, you know, losing is not fun at all. Having done both, having been

involved in campaigns or on the staff where your candidate won and my candidate

lost, winning is better, for sure. You find out who your friends are and he found out

who his friends were and I found out who my friends were and… it's part of the

system. You have to help the team that won, the person that won, you have to

work with them to make sure it's a smooth transition. And that's what he wanted.

He wanted to make sure that no one could criticize us for being anything but

cooperative.





Jamie Fox: Now, but it's never, it's not fun to lose.

Rick Sinding: One of the people who ran Christie Whitman's transition - in fact I

think she was the chair of Christie Whitman's transition - was a person who was one

of your predecessors as the Commissioner of Transportation, Hazel Gluck.

Jamie Fox: Right.

Rick Sinding: With whom I assume you had a working relationship.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Still do. I would hope so. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Just to transition into this next phase of your life, had you had a

particular interest in transportation issues? Had you been particularly involved in

transportation issues when you were in the governor's office?

Jamie Fox: No. Actually not. I mean I always had an interest only because I think

anybody who works for an elected official or works in government in New Jersey

has some knowledge of transportation, particularly if you worked for him when he

was in the northern part of the state. So yes, I always had I guess an intellectual

curiosity about it. When you work for the elected official you sort of become

knowledgeable on a number of things. And, of course, Frank Lautenberg was very

involved in transportation issues. But there was no, I mean not in school or college

or anything like that, I just sort of became interested in it. And to this day I still find

it the most interesting job I ever had being in the department.

Rick Sinding: Both times.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Tell us what you did after Florio.

Jamie Fox: Well, I went to Washington. At that time, Bob Torricelli asked me to go

to Washington to be his chief of staff, which I did. He was a Congressman at the

time, obviously. And then a couple years later, Bill Bradley announced that he was

not seeking reelection and Torricelli decided to run and he was successful.

Rick Sinding: And you worked in that campaign or--

Jamie Fox: Well, I stayed in the government.

Rick Sinding: You stayed as chief of staff.

Jamie Fox: I stayed as chief of staff, but I was…




Rick Sinding: I understand that there's a distinction there.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Obviously but I stayed in the government. But I was obviously

involved. I would say in that.

Rick Sinding: And then became his chief of staff as senator?

Jamie Fox: And then, yes, that's correct.

Rick Sinding: That's must have been interesting having worked for Senator

Lautenberg and now working for Senator Torricelli.

Jamie Fox: Well, they got along at that time.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

<Laughter>

Jamie Fox: They got along then. But, yes, going to the Senate was very different.

You know, working in the Senate, is very different than working in the House for

the simple reason there were fewer of them.

Rick Sinding: And you're not running every two years, you're running every six.

Jamie Fox: Not running every two years. There's only 100--

Rick Sinding: Yes. But you're still raising money all the time.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Well, I wasn’t involved in that. Thank God. But, yes, the Senate is

an interesting place. Very interesting and I enjoyed my time there.

Rick Sinding: And he tapped you to be the director, executive director of the

Democratic Senate Campaign Committee when he took that responsibility on.

Jamie Fox: Yes. He was named by the Democratic leadership of the Senate to run

what was known as the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which

oversaw all the Senate races across the country. That was the year that we, when I

say we, meaning the Democratic-- Democrats took control of the Senate, Hillary

Clinton won, Debbie Stabenow in Michigan. It was a very successful year.

Rick Sinding: How long did you stay with Torricelli?

Jamie Fox: I left right after the 2000, after the DSCC. After that I went out and

started my own little business in Washington. I opened up a Washington office of a

lobbying firm, Princeton Public Affairs. So I did that. And then this person named




Jim McGreevey was elected governor and I was living in Washington and he offered

me the job as Commissioner of Transportation, which was totally unexpected.

Rick Sinding: I was going to say, did that come to you out of the blue?

Jamie Fox: Yes. It certainly came out of <laughs>--

Rick Sinding: You must've known McGreevey from his time in the legislature.

Jamie Fox: Well, I did know him from both actually know him for a number of

years because obviously, he was in the legislature, he was an elected official, he

was a staffer actually before that in the legislature. So yes, of course, I, you know,

I knew him. We all, you know, we traveled in the so-called same circles in terms of,

you know, those of us who were involved in government or politics. So yes, I knew

him.

Rick Sinding: So out of the clear blue sky he asked you to be Transportation

commissioner.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Mm-hm. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Well, you have to come to that job with a very, very interesting set

of challenges.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Well, when I went to that job there were a couple of crises. I was

lucky enough to have a young man named Eric Shuffler who worked with me in Bob

Torricelli's office who I brought as my chief of staff to the department who's the

brains in the operation. And we inherited a E-ZPass that didn't work.


Jamie Fox: And people forget those days. When I was named, we had an E-ZPass

system that had just been installed and it didn't work, number one. And number

two, people were getting notices of violations every week when they didn't have a

violation.


Jamie Fox: And we were in debt of $300 million. So and we had to deal with that.

Which we did. And I think if you look at the E-ZPass system now it works because

of the reforms that we put in. We fired the incumbent company, brought in a new

company, fixed the notice problem, and then we went after DMV.

Rick Sinding: Was that part of the department at that time?




Jamie Fox: Yes. It was part of the department and no one thought it was possible

to reform and--

Rick Sinding: I thought Cary Edwards had reformed that 20 years earlier.

Jamie Fox: Carey was, in fact he was the first one to attempt it, but it would still

had some very serious problems with regards to computers and so forth.

Rick Sinding: At that point it had been part of the Department of Law and Public

Safety, I think when he was the attorney general, right?

Jamie Fox: Yes. And then it was moved over to transportation.

Rick Sinding: Oh okay.

Jamie Fox: So when I got there in fact, I asked Cary Edwards at that point if he

would come in and be the chair of the commission that came up with

recommendations as to what we do.

Rick Sinding: Yes. And he did that.

Jamie Fox: Yes. He did. So, you know, at 22-year I was running a campaign

against him and then when you're a whatever I was.

Rick Sinding: <laughs>

Jamie Fox: Yes. So he was a great man as well. Anyway, he came in and we

fought for these reforms and we passed it and we got the computers up and

running and we built new buildings.

Rick Sinding: Is that why you changed it into a commission? Was that part of

that?

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: A commission - We made it independent because one of the problems

was the money that they were getting from fees and licenses and so forth was

being diverted to the general fund… So that money was being diverted so they

never got to reinvest in upgrading of what they needed to invest, which was

computers or the buildings themselves and people were spending three hours in a

building than a Third World country.

Rick Sinding: Well, there was also a dynamometer testing for emissions that was

taking like five minutes per car or something like that.




Jamie Fox: It was broken. It had not been invested in, it had not been paid. It

inched to it was one of those areas of government that every single person deals

with.

Rick Sinding: And there had been a scandal involving the--

Jamie Fox: Parsons.

Rick Sinding: Yes. Right. That contract in the previous administration.

Jamie Fox: Yes. Yes. So between the E-ZPass not working and the DMV not

working, you know, we had our hands full. And both were fixed. And, you know, Jim

McGreevey came to me and said, you know, "Do what you have to do to fix it". And

he gave me full support and we passed a couple of bills in the legislature which

were tough to do and we merged the Turnpike and the Parkway, which were

separate bureaucracies and we turned-- rolled them into one. So that was a very

challenging, exciting time.

Rick Sinding: And then you became his chief of staff.

Jamie Fox: Yes. after a year I was-- he asked me--

Rick Sinding: You did all that in a year?

Jamie Fox: Yes. When you look back on that. I sure I had more energy, I think.

Yes, we did that it in a year.

Rick Sinding: And how did you then get tacked to come over to the governor's

office?

Jamie Fox: I'm still trying to figure that out.

Rick Sinding: <laughs> And I don't recall the circumstances. Whom did you

succeed?

Jamie Fox: Oh well, you know, Gary Taffet decided to leave.

Rick Sinding: Right. Okay.

Jamie Fox: He was the chief of staff.


Jamie Fox: He decided to leave and the governor asked me to move over and

become chief of staff. And you can't say no to those things.




Rick Sinding: No. I understand that from a couple of people who have been in

similar situations. All right. So you're there for the abrupt departure.

Jamie Fox: <laughs> Yes. Another chapter in my life.

Rick Sinding: That must've been a fascinating time.

Jamie Fox: Yes. I guess that's a good word to use. No-- <laughs> yes it was.

Rick Sinding: Yes. And I don't want to probe on--

Jamie Fox: No. You won't be. You can probe.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: Other people have. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: All right.

Jamie Fox: <laughs>

Rick Sinding: At what point did you become aware of the fact that he was going to

resign?

Jamie Fox: Oh.

Rick Sinding: You thought I was going to ask a different question, but no.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

<Laughter>

Jamie Fox: I was prepared for the other one. The-- when did I knew he was going

to resign? Two days before.

Rick Sinding: Oh. Okay.

Jamie Fox: Up until that point, I think we all believed that he could survive.

Potentially survive.

Rick Sinding: Potentially survive.

Jamie Fox: So we're looking at dif-- yes. And what was most difficult about it was

that I couldn't talk to anybody about it. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Of course.




Jamie Fox: It was one of those things that I knew for a month before that there

was a potential problem--

Rick Sinding: That this particular situation was going to create a problem

Jamie Fox: -- still a problem. Yes. Correct.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: I assume you knew substantially before that that--

Jamie Fox: No.

Rick Sinding: That--

Jamie Fox: No.

Rick Sinding: -- that there was a potential for such a problem?

Jamie Fox: No. I did not.

Rick Sinding: Oh.

Jamie Fox: No. I did not.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: No.

Rick Sinding: His abrupt departure, which resulted in Dick Codey, the Senate

president becoming the governor, acting governor, I think they called it at that

time. Where did you fit into this? How long did you stay on as either chief of staff or

in some other capacity?

Jamie Fox: Well, I stayed on until the very end, until Governor McGreevey left, so

that was November. I mean the big decision at the time was, he made the

announcement in August. But he didn't officially leave office until sometime in

November.


Jamie Fox: People ask why that long. Well, it's, he had a life that he had to

rearrange.

Rick Sinding: Right. Right.




Jamie Fox: Finding a place to live was one of them.

Rick Sinding: That's right, because he's one of the few governors who actually

lived in Drumthwacket.

Jamie Fox: Correct. So it was not one of those situations where you could

announce something on a Thursday in August and be moved out by Saturday. I

mean he had a family situation he had to deal with, with a child so, he wanted to

wrap some things up. But there was also some personal things as to - he had to

make arrangements, so to speak, on certain personal issues.

Rick Sinding: You must have then started working with Dick Cody's people to ease

some kind of a transition that was going on then.

Jamie Fox: Yes. There was a lot of-- yes, yes, of course, early on. But there was a

lot of disagreement in the party - in the certain corners of the party - that wanted

him to leave immediately. Because if he, Jim McGreevey, because if that had

happened, there would had been a special election that November.


Jamie Fox: And if he left in November obviously, then Governor Codey would

served the remainder of his term. So that was there was quite a disagreement as to

how he should proceed.

Rick Sinding: But the fact that he did choose to stay until November.

Jamie Fox: Senator Corzine at the time was pushing him very hard to leave

immediately.

Rick Sinding: So that Senator Corzine could run in the special election in

November.

Jamie Fox: That is correct. Yes. That was a very contentious time.

Rick Sinding: Were you involved in the discussions and negotiations over this or--

Jamie Fox: There were no--

Rick Sinding: -- were there any negotiations?

Jamie Fox: There were no negotiations.

Rick Sinding: Okay. Understood. All right.




Jamie Fox: I said there were differences of opinion, but there were no

negotiations. One night I was sitting in the office and--

Rick Sinding: And that was not negotiating.

Jamie Fox: That's correct.

Rick Sinding: Dick Codey becomes governor in that November.

Jamie Fox: Uh-huh.

Rick Sinding: And you left.

Jamie Fox: Yes. I went to the Port Authority.

Rick Sinding: Now there's another area that's been in the news lately. We could

probably spend another hour or so talking about the Port Authority aspect. You

were the deputy executive director.

Jamie Fox: Deputy Executive Director. And I, you know, yes. I was, yes.

Rick Sinding: Much of the discussion about the Port Authority has been how it has

morphed over the last, I don't know, 15, 20 years from a true bi-state agency to

being an agency in which there is a New York group and a New Jersey group and

they are constantly vying for power and influence and money?

Jamie Fox: Well, I don't agree at all with the scenario that has been presented in

the press that are along those lines.

Rick Sinding: You mean that it was never a true bi-state agency or it never

evolved into?

Jamie Fox: Well, it was a bi-state agency.

Rick Sinding: Okay.

Jamie Fox: And it still is a bi-state agency. My biggest concern is that the building

says the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. My biggest concern is that it's

becoming more, more and more of the Port Authority of New York. I do not agree. I

think we have to be very careful about some of these "reforms", that are being

proposed. I don't agree with the elimination of deputy executive director, who was

a New Jersey person. And I don't agree with the fact that we've given up the

chairmanship, the Port Authority. People forget that in 1975-ish, Brendan Byrne

insisted that the PATH be taken over, which was going bankrupt by the Port

Authority, in return for New York getting the World Trade Center Towers built.

People forget that. That is a political, you want to call that politics? It's politics. New




Jersey has a PATH system today because we exerted our influence. What I'm

concerned about one is that we are giving that influence up and we are not going to

get there for our fair share of that agency's resources. We're still waiting for our

PATH extension. We are still waiting for a bus terminal, which is like a third world

country to be rehabilitated. You know, we're still waiting for New York Airport

Terminal A to be rehabilitated. So I am concerned about it. And particularly in my

job now, very concerned.

Rick Sinding: Have you expressed those concerns to your fellow Democrat John

Degnan?

Jamie Fox: I have expressed my opinion on the subject to anybody who will listen.

Rick Sinding: <laughs> What--

Jamie Fox: And I'm sometime-- I'm-- it's been a tough road on, to make this

argument. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Well, it's--

Jamie Fox: It will be proven correct one day.

Rick Sinding: It's difficult to be opposed to reforms of the Port Authority at this

particular point in time.

Jamie Fox: That's correct. That's why I said "reform".

Rick Sinding: I understand.

Jamie Fox: I gave a speech in Atlantic City the other day and I said, "Let's not

make sure that any "reforms" of the Port Authority doesn’t mean that we as a state

roll over and play dead.

Rick Sinding: Did you consider that your primary responsibility as deputy

executive director, was to represent New Jersey's interest?

Jamie Fox: Well, when I was there, you know, Tony Coscia was Chairman of the

Port Authority and now is the chairman of Amtrak, a great intellectual, a great

mind, you know, and a great leader. And quite frankly, we got along very well with

New York. Doesn't mean we didn’t have disagreements, but you could close the

door and work them out. Don’t forget, we rebuilt Ground Zero when we were there.

That - the last time I looked - is in New York. And every vote was unanimous with

regard to the money that we needed, and $15 billion, in case people lost count, that

we put in and that represents New Jersey and certainly I, as deputy director,

supported that.




Rick Sinding: About the same thing that it would've cost to do the ARC tunnel.

Jamie Fox: Yes. But, you know, you can have--

Rick Sinding: Just coincidentally.

Jamie Fox: You can have your disagreements over, how much was spent there,

but no one else was stepping forward in this country to rebuild Ground Zero. It sort

of fell for whatever reason to the Port Authority to do that, because it had been

their land.

Rick Sinding: Exactly.

Jamie Fox: Right. But, you know, it's-- they stepped in and they rebuilt it. It took

a number of years, but where would we be today if it weren't for the Port Authority

doing it? But the point is I guess what I'm trying to stress here is that even though

it was in New York, even though it was 15,000 lower Manhattan, we all supported

it. And we did, we were team players, we did the right thing. I think we all got

along. I think that there it's a question of where the resources go and how hard our

representatives are going to fight for those resources in a professional way.

Because there may have been some mistakes made by certain people in certain

offices there, it doesn't meet you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Aren't you

glad you opened up the subject?

Rick Sinding: I am.

Jamie Fox: <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Actually, I am very glad.

<Laughter>

Rick Sinding: I think the Port Authority's a fascinating area to study.

Jamie Fox: Yes. It runs our airports. Tunnels. Bridges. You think of what they have

done over their lifetime and what they’re capable of doing, one of the few entities

that actually have the resources potentially to do great things.

Rick Sinding: To actually build infrastructure. Which nobody else is doing.

Jamie Fox: Yes. As I said, I'll go back to Brendan Byrne, you know, like he had the

same tension existed with Mario Cuomo and Brendan Byrne.





Jamie Fox: They were professionals. They were of the same party. But they knew

they had to protect their states’ interests. And they did. And they have

disagreements. I think Tommy Byrne, his son, will tell you about the time they were

walking down the St. Patrick's Day Parade in New York City and they're all waving

to the crowd and smiling and, you know, in between that they were fighting over

Port Authority issues. You know it's part of government.

Rick Sinding: Part of the Brendan Byrne Archive for the Center on the American

Governor has gone extensively into the issue of the relationship between Brendan

and [and Governor Tom Kean] Mario Cuomo and it is a fascinating issue.

Jamie Fox: Listen, we're in this close geographical area. New York and New Jersey,

our economies are so intertwined, our transportation systems are intertwined, it's

inevitable that there's going to be pushing and pulling and fighting over priorities.

That's not necessarily unhealthy. But I don't want to be--

Rick Sinding: Yes.

Jamie Fox: I want to be in the game. <laughs>

Rick Sinding: Understood. Understood. All right. After you got out of the game of

the Port Authority--

Jamie Fox: Yes. I started my own business.

Rick Sinding: -- started your own business.

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: Which was consulting?

Jamie Fox: Yes.

Rick Sinding: In the transportation field.

Jamie Fox: Well we started with somehow we’d been involved with professionally -

George Warrington, who was the head of the New Jersey Transit. I brought him up

from Amtrak. He was running Amtrak and when I became DOT commissioner the

first time, I asked George to run New Jersey Transit. So after a while we all decided

that we had done our thing in government and we were not getting any younger

and we wanted to try something different, so we started , the three of us started a

firm. And unfortunately, you know, George died within five, six months of

pancreatic cancer. So it was-- and it was, yes, so Eric [Shuffler] and I did that until

eight months ago. <laughs>




Rick Sinding: Was the call that you got to come back to the Department of

Transportation as out of the blue or even further out of the blue than the one you

got from McGreevey?

Jamie Fox: Well, yes, it was yes, I'd say--

Rick Sinding: I would think it was a shocker.

Jamie Fox: Well, Governor Christie and I had a mutual friend who I had been

having dinner with and said, you know, I wouldn't mind doing this. I always loved

that job and went somehow one thing led to another.

Rick Sinding: Wow. That's how it happened?

Jamie Fox: <laughs> Yes.

Rick Sinding: By virtue of the fact that this friend mentioned that you might be

interested in that position--

Jamie Fox: Yes. I think, well, he mentioned it to the governor, he expressed

interest and then we met.

Rick Sinding: How much dealing, how many dealings or how well did you know

him before this occurred?

Jamie Fox: Well, I knew him, but obviously he was somebody of the opposite

party. Certainly, I didn't know him that well. I mean I knew him, but I didn't know

him as well as other people.

Rick Sinding: He is not particularly popular among Democrats.

Jamie Fox: And at the moment he's having some problems in general with his

popularity in his state, but he's particularly not popular among Democrats.

Rick Sinding: Did you feel in any way that you are betraying your political

upbringing by taking this job?

Jamie Fox: No. One, I was very honored that anybody would ask me to come back

and do the job, which is a job that I love. But, you know, Transportation, it's not a

Democrat or Republican issue.

Rick Sinding: But there are some issues in Transportation that clearly have

become partisan.




Jamie Fox: Yes. Or I don't know if they've become partisan as much as there have

been some disagreements on how to proceed on a number of things, but I don't

think it's necessarily partisan issues.

Rick Sinding: We can agree to disagree about that.

Jamie Fox: <laughs> Yes.

Rick Sinding: How has it been work--

Jamie Fox: Oh, it's great. I feel very free to express my opinion, give my view on

issues, whether they're accepted or not is something you face in any organization.

So I have no complaints whatsoever with regard to the professionalism he shown to

me and the openness and very much so.

Rick Sinding: Why do you think he appointed you?

Jamie Fox: I wouldn't get into-- you'd like to think that maybe he thinks you could

do a better job. But beyond that I don't know.

Rick Sinding: You may or may not want to include the current governor in this last

series of questions, the assessments of the different governors that you've worked

for. I'm interested not necessarily in how Jim Florio rates compared to McGreevey

or Christie, but more what were the differences or distinctions in terms of style, of

governing style, management style, policy style. How would you characterize those

differences?

Jamie Fox: Well, I don't think there's any disagreement that Jim McGreevey is

more of a people person. He loves-- loved campaigning, loved being on the road,

loved being with people. He was more of a people person than Jim Florio. Jim Florio

was much more liked spending more time in the office on issues and though, you

could have those discussions, that was important, much more important to him

than stylistic points. They were very different people, personality-wise.

Rick Sinding: How about in terms of relationships with the cabinet and legislators?

And again, the same distinction in terms of personality?

Jamie Fox: Yes. There's a different dynamic in terms of their personalities. Jim

Florio, I would describe as much more businesslike in his relationship with

legislators or political leaders and business leaders who are very much discussing

the issues and the give and take and very, quite, I don’t want to use the word

serious, but yes, well, serious and that's what he liked. He could spend all day

talking substance and issues. He probably liked less of the backslapping that

sometimes comes with politics, probably that was probably his least favorite thing

to do.




Rick Sinding: I think he'd probably agree with you.

Jamie Fox: Well, I'm sure that he would. In fact, I've heard him say that. And Jim

McGreevey, bright as he is, he liked to go out and he spend more time out on the

road than Jim Florio did.

Rick Sinding: Now when you were working for Toricelli, you were working for a

senator. When you were working for these other two, you were working for

governors, so maybe there's, maybe that's an apples and oranges comparison.

Jamie Fox: Well, governor's a harder job. A governor is a much harder job. You

never know when you wake in the morning what problems you may have, what

crisis you may have. I mean, you know, the times when we had the blackout all

through Manhattan and Northern New Jersey in rush hour and we had to get people

home. … Senators don’t generally deal with that.

Rick Sinding: Your description of your year as transportation commissioner in the

McGreevey administration sounds very much like a crisis of the day that needs to

be dealt with.

Jamie Fox: Yes. It's a very difficult job. First of all, you know it's, you know, the

most powerful governor in the country with regard to constitutional powers. Which

means that everything falls on you, you know, from judges, etc. And, every day you

wake up there's a potential crisis or a problem or a budget to balance. It's a great

job with great stress.

Rick Sinding: You're described in a Wikipedia entry as a politician and political

operative.

Jamie Fox: <laughs>

Rick Sinding: But you’ve never run for public office.

Jamie Fox: Never.

Rick Sinding: Would you?

Jamie Fox: Never.

Rick Sinding: Okay. Final question. And you may actually have already answered

this. In fact, I think you did when you summarized what you were proudest of in

the Florio administration. But what do you think Jim Florio's legacy as governor will

be?




Jamie Fox: Well, there's no doubt in my mind that history will be very kind to

him… I'll wrap up as I said earlier on, he was the last governor to leave a surplus.

He made tough decisions that were not necessarily politically popular. Whether it

was raising taxes because we needed to fund education or he cleaned up the

environment, he invested in making sure that we had the clean water, you find a lot

of different things that history will be very kind to him about him… He was the

easiest man … that I ever worked for. As long as you did your job and that's all he

cared, that's all he wanted, just show up, do your job. And he was grateful. And I

thoroughly enjoyed my time. And I am very glad that I got an opportunity to work

for him.


Template as of: November 15, 2007governors.rutgers.edu/testing/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/...Excerpts from full transcript which follows: [Governor Florio] cared more about policy

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