Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"

8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"

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Lets Talk Bitcoin - Episode49 DisruptivePeople

Participants:

Adam B. Levine (ABL) - Host

Amir Taaki (AT) - Guest libbitcoin developer

Elizabeth Ploshay (EP) - Guest Bitcoin Foundation Board

Member

Nathanial Castro (NC) - Guest Openalcohol.org founder

ABL: Hi, and welcome to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin for

October 11, 2013. Visit us at letstalkbitcoin.com for our daily guest

blog, all our past episodes and of course, tipping address. My

name is Adam B. Levine and today, its all about people. Amir

Taaki is a name that you should already know, but chances are

good many of you dont. Bitcoin is different things to different

people but to Amir its an actionable chance to change the worldfor betterment of mankind. Amir is a full time developer on Bitcoin

projects, and recently completed an ambitious reimplementation of

the Bitcoin protocol called libbitcoin, to be more lightweight, clean,

and modular. We end todays show with what he calls the libbitcoin

manifesto, and if youre interested in powerful perspectives its not

to be missed.

The day before the cryptocurrency conference I caught up withElizabeth Ploshay, the recently elected member of the Bitcoin

Foundation Board, We talked about the journey and her priorities,

we talk about Bitcoin in the Middle East, and where the next

generation of adopters will come from.

But first - Nathanial Castro has a dream, and hes not the only one.

He dreams of a future where we farm our fuel, and have money

backed and redeemable in it. Nathanial paints the vision and its an

appealing one, if we can only get from here to there. Anybody


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wanna come along?

Enjoy the show.

ABL: [0.1.35] So, were joined this morning by Nathanial Castro.

Nathanial, you and I have been talking about Bitcoin for the last

couple of months, but you actually have an interesting project that

goes beyond Bitcoin.

NC: [0.1.45] Yeah, so I guess how I wound up finding Bitcoin

initially is sort of a long story, it involves something thats not

exactly Bitcoin-related but actually has some parallels. Several

years back I sort of went down the rabbit hole of how the world

works, how things work, how money works, how economy works,

and came to some conclusions regarding fiat currencys, and peak

oil issues, and these kind of things, and that was that we were

totally screwed.

Going down the fuel avenue of oil, and oil economy, and these

things, I realized that energy is wealth, and the ability to control

energy is wealth, and in third world countries where they canthave lights thats poverty.

I got really depressed coming against the oil shortages, commodity

shortages, and a currency that literally cant hold water, so you

know, I just stared poking around and trying to figure things out,

trying to decide what to do, I started researching local currencies a

lot and local currency schemes for hours and this kind of stuff. I

came across a guy who wrote a book called Alcohol Can Be A

Gas his names David Blume and Id heard some interviews with

him, basically when I had come across the biofuels avenue of, you

know - and when I talk about it, I--

ABL: [0.3.19] Lets back up a second, here. Im not sure that

everybody really appreciates, because you know peak oil is a term

that gets thrown around but I think there are a few different

definitions of it. Peak oil is not to say that not - correct me if Im

wrong, here - peak oil is not to say that were out.


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NC: [0.3.34] Absolutely not.

ABL: [0.3.35] It's just that weve hit the peak of production and yet,

based on global growth, that doesnt work: the math doesnt work

any more in the same way that it used to.

NC: [0.3.45] Right, it becomes harder to get, and more expensive,

and more scarce.

ABL: [0.3.47] You think - do you think were at that point, or

approaching that point, or were past that point?

NC: [0.3.52] I dont know. You know, there are arguments both

ways. To be honest, I dont really care, and quite frankly, I dont

even care so much about the peak oil issue: I just dont like putting

gas in my car. I dont like extracting something from the ground

that spits carbon monoxide into the air. I would rather put

something thats carbon neutral and semi-locally produced at least

domestically, in my car. I dont like being forced to do anything, so

you know, I wanna use ethanol and I wanna use Bitcoin.

ABL: [0.4.21] So to a certain extent it sounds like you agree withthe government who also likes ethanol and likes to incentivize

ethanol.

NC: [0.4.35] Yes and no. Our current ethanol infrastructure is

larger scale industrial: its not necessarily what David Blume or this

book or I would necessarily advocate which is more appropriate

scale - more small farm.

ABL: [0.4.53] Can you tell me about what hes advocating?

NC: [0.4.55] Hes advocating an appropriate scale the history of

ethanol and alcohol in this country is fascinating, and to anyone, I

would encourage them to get the book or at least dig up some

David Blume lectures and understand a little bit about the history

of alcohol in this country. You know, the first car, the model T both

ran on ethanol as well as gasoline, and you could fill it up with gas

in the city and then go out to country and fill it up with ethanolwhich is alcohol, which is basically moonshine and each farm in


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the country had a still. It wasnt until prohibition that that changed

and it became illegal, but in my opinion, it should be something

that everyone understands; that you can produce fuel, that you can

run moonshine in your car right now. That was something I didnt

understand, and when I went down this road and I sort of cameacross ethanol, I saw headlines that everyone sees, that it's

energy-negative, that it takes more petrol to make ethanol than

you get energy out of it.

ABL: [0.5.55] So was that not true broadly speaking?

NC: [0.5.57] Thats not true. It's largely based off of one guy's

study: this guy David Pimentel, who was actually funded by I think

Exxon.

ABL: [0.6.07] So a little bit of a conflict?

NC: [0.6.09] Yeah, its a little bit of a conflict, and its also, you

know - his numbers are based off of things like 1940s whisky

distilleries. When it comes to the ethanol production, efficiency is

extremely important. So, when you take, like, Brazil, who largely

produces most of their fuel from sugarcane ethanol. So theres thatwhole side of it is a whole long conversation to me and I would

really defer most of that to David Blume and his book because hes

the professional and Im just the student, but its fascinating,

absolutely fascinating, and it falls in line, I think, with some of the

ideologies of cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. That is: you guys had

your chance, were gonna do it our way now, and were gonna do it

a different way, and we can do it ourselves.

ABL: [0.6.52] One of the other differences and also similarities, it

seems like, is that if you have an unlimited resource that is only

geographically in some parts of the world and is certainly more

accessible in some parts of the world where it is there than others,

thats contrary to, say, something that is produced from a crop;

from a grown thing, and moonshine is not even really fuel-specific:

you can make it out of sugarcane, you can also make it out of

potatoes

NC: [0.7.20] You can make it out of a ton of different food sources.


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ABL: [0.7.23] OK, so to a certain extent, an alcohol-based fuel

system is a more decentralized system.

NC: [0.7.29] Absolutely. One aspect of it that I think is interesting:from a theoretical perspective, Im sure there are plenty of

arguments that can be made for this, and that, and what not, but

from theoretical perspective, like I said, energy is wealth, and what

alcohol is is liquid solar energy. It is basically that sunshine comes

down, combined with carbon dioxide in the photosynthesis

process, and creates carbohydrates, the yeast eat the

carbohydrates, convert it to alcohol with the carbon dioxide, and

what you have left is alcohol. -So, when you distil out the alcohol,

what you have left in your mash is everything that was already

there; the proteins, the fats, the nutrients, the minerals: the only

thing youre extracting is the alcohol, which is liquid sunshine. -So

now, if energy is wealth and alcohol is liquid sunshine, were being

rained wealth on every day, and it's just a matter of harvesting it,

and thats what farmers do and thats what youre doing when

youre using the photosynthesis process to collect that energy.

ABL: [0.8.29] -So now, I also heard this argument made aboutsolar, but it seems like this is a little bit different than solar in a

couple of ways.

NC: [0.8.37] Yeah, youre probably talking about the photovoltaic

sort of aspect of solar.

ABL: [0.8.40] Yeah, I am - yes. I mean the electric generation.

NC: [0.8.43] Yeah, that has all sorts of problems.

ABL: [0.8.46] One of the main problems it has is that the places

that you generate solar energy for photovoltaic generally isnt

where you need to use it and theres a loss over transmission, and

thats not really the case with the liquid fuel source: the fuel source

is very transportable.

NC: [0.9.01] Yeah, its fungible. They used whiskey as currencyback in the day and theres a great book: it's fiction it's called The


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Whiskey Rebellion - but its based off of historical fiction, and that

is a big plot line - is them paying their rent in whiskey and that

kinda stuff. -So whiskey as a currency and alcohol as a currency

was kind of a running theme as I was doing all this research, so

when I came across this, I said, I wanna do that. I dont have afarm. This is generally something that would appeal to someone

who maybe has a farm, but I wanted to do it anyway. -And I figured

I dont wanna work out the bugs, I don't wanna work out kinks, and

I just dove right in, and I ran into two major obstacles: capital and

you can get a permit to distil five thousand gallons for fuel

purposes for free, so free permits really easy to get, and so I

figured Okay, thats a good number, Ill shoot for that; Im gonna

try do a five thousand gallon aim, or sort of distillation set up, but

you know, thinking about it, if I wanted to scale theres a

distribution issue as well. Basically, in what David Blume proposes,

is community-supported energy, like a community-supported

agriculture you basically pay your subscription at the beginning of

the year and youre allowed a certain amount of gallons throughout

the year, and so it would be done as a collective. But you know, to

scale it up, it gets bigger and so I started kinda thinking about

well, what about several and how could you connect them and

build a network, and exchange in between them? -And I started tothink of having a currency that would be backed by this locally

produced ethanol, and so in effect, what you would do by

subscribing to [at the beginning of the year], would be essentially

purchasing these credits that would then be exchanged as a local

currency.

ABL: [0.10.59] OK, so lets say that we have one of these

communities supporting fuel, is that what you call it?

NC: [0.11.03] Community-supported energy.

ABL: [0.11.06] Energy, yes - CSE. You subscribe to that, I dont

subscribe to that, so youre saying that once you'be subscribe to

that and you have your set amount of credits for the year, you

could sell some of those to me, and I could then be able to redeem

them or also use it as a currency myself in the same way that you

do?


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NC: [0.11.23] Right, well - and the part of it is - as well - is that

you're producing fuel, but like I said, after you distil the alcohol you

have this mash left and that is a huge nutrient source, there are

many things that can be done agriculturally from that, you know:

grow mushrooms, feed it to fish, grow vegetables, and all theseother things, so it works in conjunction with the local farms; so

youre producing fuel and youre producing food and so, say if

youre building this distillation facility and you need some welding

work done. Well, the welder Im not a welder, but I can find

someone who can weld and can be paid in these credits which can

then, in turn, be redeemed to purchase fuel, or vegetables, or

mushrooms, or you know... Im a big fan of local economies and

local currencies and they add farmer value to a local economy

then the national currency would. -So this was the idea I was

coming up with, and this also, in turn, raises the capital to build the

facility.

ABL: [0.12.22] Right, its essentially, you know - its like a CSE pre-

ordering sort of...-

NC: [0.12.25] Yeah, its essentially crowd funding: its a kick-starter

on a local level for a very specific reason. -So yeah, that was mybright idea and Im like Okay, I wanna figure this out, I wanna

design this currency, I wanna because this was a problem I ran

into. I dont have the funds to do this, its kind of an obscure

business model I dont know if I can borrow the money for it, but I

wanna see it done and I wanna see it be done to be replicable and

scalable, and so I wanted Im big on design, another aspect of

this whole ideology is the concept of permaculture. I dont know if

youre familiar with permaculture...?

ABL: [0.12.58] I am - a small amount, but why dont we recap just

for the audience?

NC: [0.13.01] Well, permaculture is a method of designing

agricultural landscapes to be permanent, like a forest or

something. The way nature designs things, it doesnt design

anything with waste. You know, there are no carbon monoxide

spitting in the air.


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ABL: [0.13.18] Well, I mean - let's dig into that a little bit. I live in a

forest, right, so there are lots of trees in the forest. The trees have

leaves, the leaves fall to the ground. Some people would

characterize the leaves falling to the ground as waste because

they are no longer being used by the tree, so how does that tie inwith permaculture?

NC: [0.13.35] Oh well, the leaves break down into soil, which in

turn feeds the plants. I mean, everything in the Amazon forest-

ABL: [0.13.42] So were talking about the cycle of things?

NC: [0.13.43] The cycle of things, yeah, and the stacking of

functions. [I] probably couldnt give the best examples right now,

but there [is] the concept of things serving multiple purposes.

ABL: [0.13.52] So its almost like a systems-based approach to the

growth cycle, as opposed to the monoculture that, a lot of times,

you see used.

NC: [0.14.01] Exactly.

ABL: [0.14.02] Right, so instead of them being one type of thing

like fields of wheat - instead you have various things that are all

synergistically interact with each other?

NC: [0.14.11] Right, polyculture, annuals, perennials all working

together. I mean, its an observational design system, yeah. I

recommend anyone also to look into permaculture as an

alternative to our current monoculture nightmare. You know, like I

said, the fuel food and our currency issues were these glaring

problems in society in my opinion, and you know, monoculture,

and peak oil, and fiat currency.

ABL: [0.14.39] So, just again real quick - I dont mean to keep you,

but were covering a lot of concept here and I wanna make sure

that were keeping people with us. Why is a monoculture bad in

agriculture?

NC: [0.14.49] Several reasons: one of them is monoculture


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basically opens up to pest problems. You know, if a potato bug

sees a field of potatoes, its just open season. [In] polyculture, you

have several different types of crops, its not as easy pickings for

one insect to come in.

ABL: [0.15.13] One type of insect can come in and infest the entire

thing as opposed to only being able to affect a smaller portion of

it?

NC: [0.15.19] Right, and you see certain aberrations starting to

arise with, you know - youve got Monsanto and the round up stuff

and occasionally you see some I dont know if this entirely true

actually, but you see resistances to certain pesticides.

ABL: [0.15.36] Well, you do see evolutionary trades evolve over

time. It makes sense, you know.

NC: [0.15.41] So that, as well as a lot of the ammonia-based

fertilizers, which are petroleum-based fertilizers, so if peak oil is an

issue, thats an issue. So yeah, the monocultural agriculture

process versus a permaculture polycultural process are polar

opposites.

ABL: [0.15.59] Right. OK, I got you there, great. We can get back

to the story.

NC: [0.16.04] OK, so permaculture also incorporates theres a

permaculture economic model which is looking at economics from

a local scale, and I like to say stacking functions from a currency

perspective, so designing this local currency that would fund the

building of the facility as well as add value to the community, you

know - serves multiple purposes in my opinion. -So from a

permaculture perspective, thats kind of how I was looking at it. -So

I have a bit of a technical background and I know software and

hardware but I didnt want to get into this and have to man these

servers and deal with basically a centralized system that I would

have to babysit and maintain and all these things. Im a musician,

and I remember coming across Napster for the first time andsaying you know, the music industry is really gonna get hit with


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this one, and seeing it all unfold and understanding really the

power of decentralization and that you cant shut it down. -And so,

I was looking for a decentralized open source digital currency, you

know, I figured someone had to be... There were several things

that I had found already: other software projects, other digitalcurrency concepts that people were playing around with, and I

figured someone had to be working on some kind of open source,

decentralized version, and so thats what I googled and thats how

I found Bitcoin. -And it was early stages, but because I had done

so much research on local currencies and alternative currencies, it

just blew me away. -So I kinda lost myself in the Bitcoin thing for a

while because Bitcoin is so huge, and prior to finding Bitcoin, trying

to design a currency that would add and give value to us was prior

to Bitcoin. -So when I discovered Bitcoin, then it was all post-

Bitcoin: Bitcoin solved all these problems without having to back it

with ethanol: it's inherently valuable as it is, so that was just

fascinating. It was fascinating but it didnt solve the problem that I

was trying to solve, which was issuing a currency that would be

backed that would be centralized. -So I kinda set that project

aside; the whole ethanol thing - and I chipped away at it and what

not, but it wasnt until the conference, the San Jose conference,

where I kinda realized that with the colored coins, and Ripple, andOpen Transactions, I bumped into a fellow traveller there and the

Color Coins actually facilitates that was more to the extent I was

looking for. It solves the problem that I was looking for, and prior to

going to the conference, I didnt really understand Ripple. I wasnt

sure what they were trying to accomplish, what was going on, but

after I talked to the guys, I realized thats exactly what theyre

doing - is making a way to issue a currency that would be backed

by - I think they call it Gateways, but its essentially a trusted

third party. -So youve got Color Coins, which are a decentralized

asset-backed currency that kind of lives on the blockchain, and

youve got Ripple, which is a more centralized version, and then

youve got Open Transactions, which is a federated version, but

youve got these different attempts at solving this problem. -So I

decided to pick it back up and at least work on the designing of

that aspect of it, you know, its a large complicated project.

ABL: [0.19.43] Okay, so does that bring us up to the present?


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NC: [0.19.45] That brings us up to the present.

ABL: [0.19.47] Okay, so whats next?

NC: [0.19.49] Well, that I dont know. To be honest, there are a fewthings that I was kinda waiting for to come through. David Blume

has his distillation company and so he has clients that are

purchasing distillation facilities from him, you know, possibly

proposing some of these ideas to him, and theres also this

enzyme Im trying to get a hold of to make it easier and less

expensive: it combines the fermentation with the scarification

process. Thats another thing - and also, Im not a programmer, so

when it comes to actually making some of the Color Coin stuff

work, I kinda just have to wait for it to evolve.

ABL: [0.20.29] -So when youre talking about Color Coins, could

this be implemented through an alternative cryptocurrency?

NC: [0.20.36] Like an alternative blockchain?

ABL: [0.20.38] Yeah like an alternative blockchain.

NC: [0.20.39] Initially, I thought about that when I first -- thats why

I was looking for an open source version, because I was possibly

going to use it and design it. Im not the biggest fan of alternative

blockchains simply because of the hashrate issue.

ABL: [0.20.56] So the hashrate, though, is tied to issuings,

basically. Its tied to issuings, it's tied to security - there are a few

other things that it's tied to, but it seems like what you are talking

about is almost like your proof-of-work can only be done by a

certain type of person with a certain type of asset; property,

essentially - who is able and has the equipment or at least part of

that process to make it. -So to a certain extent, its almost like the

issuings doesnt come from the blockchain, it comes from real life,

and then needs to be translated into the blockchain.

NC: [0.21.26] Right, yeah, exactly.

ABL: [0.21.28] Then theres like a redemption mechanism that you


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have to develop where they can trade on their own, but at some

point, at any point, somebody can take one or many of these and

redeem them for the actual fuel.

NC: [0.21.41] And thats where youre right in that sense thatsecurity is not as paramount because its hard to make it: youre

dealing with a third party, its kinda hard to fraud the system.

Essentiall,y if youre using Color Coins and it's like if you have a

coupon or a credit card, anyone can see your credit card number -

if they want to steal from you, they can. I mean, you can leave the

private key exposed... I dont know - I havent quite figured out

exactly how to do it or how to propose it.

ABL: [0.22.12] So youre still definitely thinking this one out?

NC: [0.22.14] Yeah, Im still thinking it out, which is why Ive stayed

really quiet about this - because I havent quite figured it out.

ABL: [0.22.21] I think its a really interesting idea. I think that it

actually sounds pretty actionable too but you know what I mean,

thats fairly plausible we hear about all coin concepts and different

Color Coin concepts occasionally.

NC: [0.22.31] Yeah, well, in this, its definitely a bit of a departure

from the Bitcoin world which is very blockchain focused, you know,

or Bitcoin focused.

ABL: [0.22.40] Well, weve been talking about this global-local

thing that cryptocurrencies enable. Bitcoin certainly is something,

but Bitcoin ,for the purposes youre talking about, focuses more on

local because it's all about developing and enabling relationships

between producers and consumers, and the ability to trade is

really almost secondary to that because the only relationship is

between the producer and the consumer. It just depends on who

the consumers winds up being... you trade who that is.

NC: [0.23.05] Exactly. One of the issues I was trying to solve is

possibly expanding this local network so this is great if you want to

drive around your local city, but what if you wanna drive acrosscountry? Ideally, you could have a network and an IPhone app that


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would link you up to local ethanol producers that would be willing

to participate in this network, so Im still thinking it through.

ABL: [0.23.27] Well, Nathaniel, thats a really interesting idea we

look forward to hearing how it develops. Are you looking for help atthis point? Is there a way people can contact you?

NC: [0.23.34] Yeah, openalcohol.org is the website Ive been

sitting on for a while, [email protected] be a way to get

hold of me. And yeah - any ideas, thoughts, help... Im actually just

kinda happy to get this out of my head and out...

ABL: [0.23.53] So are you intending to do this as an open source

project?

NC: [0.23.55] Absolutely, open source and open model. Ideally, I

wanted to kind of take the concept, and do it, and prove that it

could work, at least... even the production of the ethanol, and run

the numbers. and do it as an open business model. and I implore

anyone to get the book and take a look at it - it's fascinating.

ABL: [0.24.17] What was the name again?

NC: [0.24.18] Alcohol Can Be A Gas by David Blume. -Because

he proposes an open business model thats solid, its a solid

ABL: [0.24.30] Well, something is valuable that youre talking about

- its a lot easier to say that than it is about intangible...

NC: [0.24.35] Yeah, and it provides employment, and values local

economies, and all these things that seem to be a problem.

ABL: [0.24.43] Sustainability, absolutely. Okay, great. Well, thank

you for stopping by today, Nathaniel. Im glad we had a chance to

do this.

NC: [0.24.50] Yeah, you too.
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]


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ABL: [0.25.55] Right now, were joined by Elizabeth Ploshay, who

recently won the first elected board seat on the Bitcoin Foundation

on an individual board, so Elizabeth, thank you very much for

joining us today.

EP: [0.26.06] Thanks, Adam. Its a privilege to get to speak to you

guys today. Yeah, so Im really excited, first of all, to serve on the

Bitcoin Foundation board. I see that theres a lot of potential forjust growth of the Bitcoin community and Ive been privileged to

serve with Bitcoin Magazine. Its a joy to be involved in the Bitcoin

community.

ABL: [0.26.22] We just ended what was a much more contentious

election than I really thought it would be, and the candidates that

were running were absolutely incredible as far their credentials

were concerned. What do you credit your victory to?
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]


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EP: [0.26.35] You know, one of the main things about this election:

[it] showed all the wonderful candidates who are involved and how

many ideas there are, and I guess I was able to get some support

by being available to a lot of the different members of the

community and getting ideas for it and having some organizationto my platform and I really look forward to working with the other

candidates who ran. It was a very close win but they had tons of

wonderful ideas, ideas regarding regulations, specifically

international outreach; I see that this is an opportunity for the

Bitcoin community to come together so we can all work together

and Im really looking forward to working with the other candidates.

ABL: [0.27.09] Where do you see the education movement going

now, because it seems like the problem that we had six month ago

- education was much more of a problem: there are better

examples, now. What do you think is important to move to next?

EP: [0.27.20] Well, Im very privileged, actually, to now serve on

the education committee on the Bitcoin Foundation, and I see that,

right now, we just need better organization of our resources and

weve got various new sites. We have different forms and whatnot,

but it's absolutely key that we get the word out more and also bemore in-tuned to the individuals who dont yet know about Bitcoin

but who are warmer audiences, so I dont think from a more limited

government type of perspectives, but also other groups of people

around the world: women in particular, who need to learn about

how Bitcoin applies to their lives, so I think its going to be moving

Bitcoin away from just a currency, that say, software developers

use, to something that even women who run household finances

can use.

ABL: [0.28.02] Whats required to make that happen?

EP: [0.28.05] We just need more resources out there, so

specifically with the Bitcoin Foundation, I hope to help it become

more of an information aggregate, so have a better listing of

resources and even simple how-to guides. Sometimes, people just

want this consolidated in to a few bullet points - just how it applies

to their life.


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ABL: [0.28.25] So use-cases, right? Thats what were talking

about? Were talking about the need for there to be use-cases

where I, as a woman, would then look at this and say oh, yes, this

applies to my life. So I mean, is thatIm trying to figure out what

this is - is that educational materials? Is that better wallet tools thatare more usable?

EP: [0.28.44] Educational materials and also organization of those

materials. Also, people having opportunity to share how they coin

and how they pack their life, so for example, there are a lot more

women getting involved. Theres a woman in a Bitcoin group that

started up on the west coast here in the United States. Theres

also even, for example, someone in the Bitcoin Wife and she has a

daily blog where she puts out information about how she, as a wife

and a mother, is using Bitcoin, and so more people in the

community are speaking out. -And then also have how-to guides

that are more comprehensive as well, in terms of wallet

development, and also Bitcoin business, and then taking it to the

next level in terms of regulation and policy.

ABL: [0.29.26] -So, before you got into the Bitcoin space, you were

involved in middle east policy?

EP: [0.29.30] Yes.

ABL: [0.29.31] And thats an area thats important to you? Thats a

passionate area for you?

EP: [0.29.33] Yes.

ABL: [0.29.34] -So weve had a conversation before and youve

told me Bitcoin has a real impact on that type of culture, too,

almost even more so than in other places. Why is that?

EP: [0.29.45] Well, Bitcoin opens up the door for freedom of

speech and individual rights around the world, and in a lot of these

countries, unfortunately, government has a very constricting place

in terms of finances. For example, right now, Bitcoin is growing in

Iran and the Iranian Rial are sinking in value due to inflation, andBitcoin provides a way out. Bitcoin, again, is a catalyst towards


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that more privacy, decentralized type of movement, as well in other

places, too, Bitcoin is just growing tremendously in Israel: were

seeing there are a lot of technological development in these areas

and Bitcoin, again, is, Id say, a slap in the face to a lot of regimes

that are repressive. -And its also a gateway, too, for variouscountries that are, unfortunately, again, having inflated currency

and also subject to sanctions.

ABL: [0.30.33] One of the major platforms that you ran on was this

idea of internationalizing the Bitcoin Foundation structure, right?

-And yet you are an American citizen which seems to be a bit of a

contradiction for some voters out there.

EP: [0.30.50] Right.

ABL: [0.30.51] So do you think that that matters at all? I mean,

clearly, you dont think that that matters, but tell me, how do we do

this? How do we take this structure that started off as a very US-

centric organization and that looks like its continuing along that

way, at least as far as how its interfacing with regulators and rule-

makers, its not going over to Europe and doing that. -So whats

the path forward for internationalization?

EP: [0.31.13] Well, I see that there are tons of phenomenal Bitcoin

leaders around the world, and several of the candidates who ran

really spear-headed movements within their country, and I really

do feel like its important that we continue to develop Bitcoin

Foundation chapters in various countries. The process has already

been started and I look forward to being more involved with that

after our first board meeting in October. You know what, just

having these leaders provide reports back to the Foundation on

how Bitcoin specifically grows in their country - Im just amazed at

all the different conferences that are taking place. Weve got

several coming up in Canada in October, then weve got India in

December, and Argentina in December, and just various

conferences around the world, and thats another important way to

hook in members and those societies, and get them connected

personally to Bitcoin. -So I see that, again, the foundation yes, it

is, geographically, [unintelligible] based in the United States, but atthe same time, the international membership is just growing, and


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we need to be able to have leaders in those countries

strengthened with tools, and even another component is the

educational component in getting resources translated into various

languages, whether its Chinese, or Spanish, or you name it.

Theres the strengthened leaders there providing tools andresources and educational material, and also thinking about

various conferences in those countries.

ABL: [0.32.35] Do these wind up being autonomous individual

units or do they wind up being chapters?

EP: [0.32.41] You know, I dont know, yet, the full direction of the

Foundation, and I look forward to learning more, but I would say

more so chapters. Obviously, there already are autonomous units

and anything, from Bitcoin meetup groups to larger, you know -

theres a Bitcoin embassy in Canada, for example, but its cool to

have the model which I proposed in my platform of organizing

centralization so each chapter being unique but also kind of

connected to a core ideology involving Bitcoin.

ABL: [0.33.14] Right, but ideology doesnt necessarily implyI

guess the question that Im asking is more along the lines of is theUS foundation the most important: is it the center?

EP: [0.33.26] Well I

ABL: [0.33.28] What rules the center? Are the ideals the center?

EP: [0.33.32] Well, its hard to say because its a work in progress

and the US foundation was just founded a little over a year ago, so

I would say that this is an opportunity for us to try and see what

model works best. Right now, Foundation chapters are developing

around the world and it will be interesting to see how that all

evolves, and obviously, the standards for one foundation chapter,

say, in India, might be very different to one in Germany or the UK. I

mean, we just have to see what works best because, at the end of

the day, we all have the same goal to strengthen Bitcoin and get

the word out, and so thats the most important thing instead of

getting caught up in the rules and regulations of all of it.


19/30

ABL: [0.34.10] Stepping away from the Foundation and your role

there for a second, weve just seen the demise of Silk Road, it

seems like, and this had a kind of pronounced impact on the

Bitcoin market, although it seems to have been very brief. Im

wondering: I have a sense that if this had happened a year ago,this would have been a much bigger deal as far as both the price

but also in terms of the perception of Bitcoin, and Ive been a little

surprised at how little of an impact it seems to have had even

though this is arguably one of the original and largest markets that

accepted Bitcoin. It did a lot of volume, too. What do you think is

happening here?

EP: [0.34.52] Well, I think that Bitcoin is more and more becoming

a legitimate currency. I mean, its a force to be reckoned with if you

think about it, you know there are so many businesses now

accepting and using Bitcoin for legal activities and Bitcoin is still

strong despite the close-down of Silk Road, and again, I mean, it

just shows also excess government regulation. Bitcoin has come

out the top again and, yeah, a year ago, not as many businesses

were using Bitcoin, Bitcoin wasnt in the news as much, the value

of Bitcoin wasnt as high as it is today, but you can tell if something

is strong if it continues to take hits, and I just see this as anotheropportunity for governments around the world to listen, and wake

up, and see that people want to put their finances and invest their

time and money into something that is stronger than most fiat

currencies.

ABL: [0.35.43] I actually wanted to ask you about that. So you

know, we talk a lot about regulation and one of the questions we

dont talk about a lot is what would good regulation look like? What

would a beneficial outcome, but a realisticnot like they say that

theyre going to completely ignore it and you dont have to pay tax

on it. I dont really think that thats in the cards, but I mean is there

a good regulatory outcome?

EP: [0.36.06] Well, I would just say clarity is necessary at this

point. Sitting here in the United States, we really dont have clarity

much on tax law. We just need a better idea of what to expect. A

lot of businesses, especially, are gonna be hit hard if they dontknow specifically how to operate, also the government in particular


20/30


21/30

of process forward on the Bitcoin Foundation board, just to be

thinking about the future because people need to understand their

children, for example, have a financial future, and the best financial

future is invested in Bitcoin.

ABL: [0.38.34] Most of the time, when we talk to people in the

space, they're actually not the college age, or if they are college-

aged, they tend to be in like masters programs, but theyre

generally older than twenty-five. Its kinda rare to find somebody

under twenty-five these days who is seriously out doing the Bitcoin

space. -So you think that the younger generation, like eighteen to

like twenty-three demographic, thats the thing.

EP: [0.38.53] Well, I definitely think so and thereve already been

various meetups on college campuses. I mean, the meetup system

is really neat on getting people to come together with these similar

ideas and there are various groups on campus that are already

taking to this, for example, Students For Liberty, Im excited to

meet with some Students For Liberty and representatives here at

the cryptocurrency conference, and just kinda talk with them,

strategize, and get a climate for what its like on college campuses,

but certainly, there are a lot of different movements - anything fromvarious political groups at the college level which translates into

the national level, its just an opportunity for people to kind of find

their niche and then move forward, and you know, see how it can

impact a future career as well as get them connected to movers

and shakers in the community.

ABL: [0.39.35] -So are we talking about specificall people w!o arealrea" pre"ispose" to t!is sort of t!inking# Because again$ ou

talk about Stu"ents %or Libert: t!at&s a group t!at un"erstan" t!eproble' wit! 'one an" t!erefore t!e can appreciate t!e better'one$ but t!at&s t!e t!ing t!at ( alwas run into w!en ( talk topeople w!o are too oung: t!e "on&t !a)e t!e e*perience wit! t!ecurrent sste' to un"erstan" w! it sucks.

EP: [0.39.57] Right, well, there are a different political-type of

groups on campuses and I think its just that showing individuals

how Bitcoin applies to their life, so providing them with resourcesand, honestly, a lot of movements are started by finding people


22/30

who are leaders in the community, regardless of if theyre involved

in Bitcoin or not, and getting them latched in and helping teach

them how it applies to their life, and helping them then evangelize

to their peers about it.

ABL: [0.40.24] -So they get viral?

EP: [0.40.25] Yeah, it does get viral really fast, especially when

you start learning about Bitcoin and all the benefits.

ABL: [0.40.32] Well, Elizabeth, thank you very much. Were gonna

go enjoy this party at the BitPay office and its great to have you

again on Lets Talk Bitcoin.

EP: [0.40.38] Okay, thanks, Adam.

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everybody. Seansoutpost.com

AT: [0.41.39] As humans, we share little in common, but that little

we do share is a deep core of our being. We search for purpose,

we are curious, and we thrive on new information. Our self-


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awareness, rationality, and sapience are the high level features

that make up a person. They are our capacity for good or evil. As

people, we need to ask ourselves whether we act with purpose,

intent, and ambition. Ask how we are defining ourselves and what

other values that our lives are promoting. Are you taking concretesteps now to achieve your objective? Its important we ask

ourselves these questions and decide which end of the spectrum

between liberty and security we fixate on: a safe life of luxury in

comfort closed in by four walls, or a life of a freedom; freedom to

make love, play loud music, create art, wrestle naked, and raise

confident kids that think?

In criticizing the world we are born into, it is easy to point the finger

at this or that politician or resign problems to circumstance, and

with the perceived lack of power, to concede the situation is

unfixable and utterly broken, but if we want to know who to blame

we need only to look into a mirror: we support the situation. It is

people, not rulers, who create the world of today. Some of us

conclude that the situation is just a normal state of affairs, is simply

human nature, as if there was one human nature, and disregarding

that we all evolve and grow as people in different directions during

our lives. Think of the values we are taught as children, how weare taught to behave as civic citizens, the phrases we are taught

by our parents, teachers, and friends. The system is not just the

state and corporations, it is a machine encompassing all spheres

of life. You might hear, for example, respect for authority figures is

a sign of maturity, men with good jobs dress smart and

respectably, work hard for a good job and a good life, retire young,

dont talk to strangers, life is about money, money makes the world

go 'round. I was told all of these sentences in my life, that learning

to accept authority is an inevitable part of growing up, that my

character is defined by how I look, not how I act, that my single

purpose is to be a work slave, to avoid interactions with random

unknowns outside my circle and the responsibly starts and stops

with myself. All of them are bad values. We are not born with these

values: they are hardwired into us from a young age. Luckily,

knowledge feeds the unlearning process, and the Internet is an

unlearning tool. Have you ever questioned the fifteen years of our

precious childhood from kindergarten to high school? We attendthe prison with fixed schedules and dinner at an allocated time,


24/30

were forced to wear uniforms. If you want to speak, you need to

raise your hand. If you need the toilet, you must ask permission,

and the lessons amount to little more than drilling information with

the given promise of honors and qualifications. The reward for

faithfully jumping through all these hoops for fifteen years is aworthless piece of paper that isnt even required for a job at

McDonalds, and the workers still need training. Our children arent

taught how to cook a healthy meal, grow a garden, or even a

rudimentary concept of how to organize or lead groups of people,

without even a glimmer of understanding on how to resolve conflict

without violence: all the principles of logic and how to question an

ideology. Kids are taught how to sit at a desk and listen obediently

as the world is packaged into neat little boxes. School is little more

than a training camp for salute drones designed to format young

minds for a life of subservience, too stupid question the system

itself or the authority of those running it. We are not born with bad

values: they are wired into us from a young age. Lets talk about

good values: responsibility is about filling your needs to have a

dignified existence and then expanding that circle to the people

around you, to help bring up and out the potential of other free

people. Together, we can thrive: community and collective action

is absolutely essential if we want to rise up. The system thrives byseparating people into isolated pockets who get their information

from TV and their culture from corporations. United together, we

are stronger.Perez Inumaru.Independence and autonomy is the ability to act. If we always

need third parties and central organization to resolve disputes,

solve our problems, and co-ordinate us, then we are doomed as a

species. Central authorities are always a magnificent corruption

and that will never change. Learn to be self-reliant and make

things happen. Understanding is not an easy skill to develop but it

is very powerful. Being able to get into peoples minds to listen and

to be able to meet their needs is leadership. A leader serves and

inspires people into action, whereas a ruler uses coercion. For all

their grandeur and force, rulers cannot harness the real potential of

people: nobody thinks under duress. We need assertive individuals

who stand unyielding for what they believe in: if you know

something is right, then fight for your vision, it will happen. Thesystem feeds off passivity and giving consent to its exclusive hold


25/30

of force feeds the machine. Lastly, lets approach the world as

artists and bring creativity to our work. The world is diverse,

colorful and vibrant - humans are not meant to live in little boxes

and great concrete jungles. Live art and be creative. Your work is

art. Good art makes people think and feel. The role of good peopleis the vanguard of tomorrow. Plato said the penalty good men pay

for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

Its an old story: David versus Goliath, Starfleet rebels versus

Galactic death star, anarchist revolutionaries versus the fascists

both sides have existed for centuries and the struggle continues.

However, in recent decades, with the unique political situation, the

Internet, and a dawning awareness amongst people the balance of

power is shifting in our favor this time around. Humans can look to

a future less dominated by the command hierarchies of the past

and more by thriving market places of knowledge and merit, I

remember an amateur blue webpage in the summer of twenty ten

describing a peer to peer currency that cannot be controlled by

governments or central banks. Extremely skeptical, I dived into the

cold and discovered an idea which burnt itself in my memory: my

mind latched on to Bitcoin. I realized this unknown project is the

future of money. Bitcoin is a tool of resistance gifted to us by

Satoshi. That idea has escaped and that idea of cryptocurrencywill not be stopped: Bitcoin or some other cryptocurrency will

succeed. Bitcoin is about direct trade from peer to peer, the purest

value transfer possible between two or more people; a direct and

personal interaction over digital infrastructure. Welcome to the

future of the black market: real values, real people and

uncorrupted markets. The Internet is a tool of freedom and self-

determination, meddling in its mechanics is destructive. Whenever

a website is blocked, a protocol is corrupted at some low level, or

undesirable traffic shaping occurs, these seismic ripples of

censorship and destruction lead to degradation of the network. The

Internet is fundamental to society and must be protected at all

costs. Bitcoin is no different and must be kept pure. There are real

risks to Bitcoin: the protocol is not fixed, is not an axiomatic system

established by Satoshi - its been constantly changing and rapidly

evolving, and the pace is accelerating. Risks are more subtle and

probable than a government demanding changes to the

fundamental Bitcoin protocol. The chilling effect of self-censorship... we dont even need to touch the protocol as Bitcoin


26/30

grows. The inevitable specialization is kicking in as the blockchain

is moving towards specialized surfaces and the future of full

Bitcoin nodes on the server, not personal computers.

We have to wake up, adapt, and work with the reality rather thanpersisting in self-denial. If development is too centralized with a

small core infrastructure, then businesses will put real pressure to

have features that destroy the integrity of the Bitcoin network. The

excuse will be to protect themselves from liability, self-censorship,

and what they demand does not have to be protocol changes: they

will demand features in the software they use, software which

remains compatible with the network but works against the

interests of individuals, small businesses, and the black market.

The possible malicious scenarios are endless: stuff like peer to

peer blacklists to create a legitimate walled garden, or tracking

technologies like large databases of IP addresses to triangulate

where transactions came from. At the other end of the spectrum is

putting development effort into diversifying the ecosystem to

protect against censorship, and proxy relay nodes anonymizing

mixing, tweaksm and other technologies. Thats where developers

who believe in Bitcoin should devote time to. Corporations are

powerful enough. To developers: serve your community. Adiversified Bitcoin of many wallets and implementations is a strong

and pure Bitcoin. To protect the integrity of the network, we need

to eliminate single points of failure, an inbred Bitcoin with the same

software code everywhere shares the same weaknesses and its

susceptible to the same attacks. A single pathogen can wipe out a

genetically homogenous population and centralize software is

vulnerable to the dictates of whoever controls development of that

software code on any dictates pressured on to them. The

implications of a diversified Bitcoin is a Bitcoin difficult to control. It

also sets the protocol in stone, as nobody has sole power over the

standard. Consensus from many parties is the way forward. The

proper way to develop a standard is by having many different

competing parties that require mutual interest and agreement to

pass through changes. History is rife with abuse, like when Internet

Explorer dominated the browser market and constantly broke the

web standard by introducing proprietary extensions. Their motive

was to swallow the market and lock users into Internet Explorer:the result was a broken web. A monopoly likes to dominate the


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market, shut out competitors, and erect high barriers for entry. A

diversified ecosystem protects against feature creep or bloat of the

standard. Extra features go beyond the basic function of Bitcoin

and so can result in over-complication rather than simple design.

Viewed over a longer time period, extra or unnecessary featuresseem to creep into the system beyond the initial goals and a small

code of fifteen thousand lines set by Satoshi. The result will be a

Bitcoin that becomes increasingly difficult to understand or

implement, with that huge initial investment of resources, time, and

people. No single person will fully understand Bitcoin anymore,

and development monopolies will be further enforced. Linux is the

most secure operating system because of its diversity: there is no

single one exploit that is universal across all versions of Linux.

Bitcoin must evolve in the same way to become a resilient and

tough system able to serve global audience. A massive standard is

difficult to re-implement. Satoshi Nakamoto gifted us a small

focused and pure Bitcoin. There is no need for compromise. Let's

push for our complete vision. Bitcoin is here, we have the initiative,

and we make our stand now. We have the power and now is the

time, not later - now. Within a century of the printing press being

invented, wars, social strife, and revolutions erupted across

Europe. Old kings, revered religious leaders, and tyrannical rulerswere removed from power. People could now read what was

written in their bibles. Mass printing of the bible was subversive

and what was written in their bibles is not what they were being

fed. In the face of hard evidence, people dispelled old notions of

what their religion was saying.

Our economy will change. Bitcoin will rise as fundamental

technology seeking approval from the halls of Washington and

consent from the status quo is mere pandering as lapdogs at the

feet of the system. Why would you willingly give your power away?

Are you stupid?

Some people make the argument that throwing Bitcoin under the

bus and corrupting the core of this technology is needed to help

businesses which specialize in the exchange of failing government

fiat paper money with Bitcoins. Are we willing to sacrifice the purity

of this tool for a few short-term gains that primarily benefit UScorporations? Do they serve the need of Bitcoin? Others even go


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further, arguing that we need the masses, that being a majority

protects people from assaults: typical herd mentality - and that

regulation, and the measures to implement them are a typical

process of acceptance. I have news for you: majorities have been

slaughtered like pigs all throughout history. Being pragmatic iscode speak for obedience and cowardice. Bitcoin is the future: act

like you believe it, act to prevent corruption of the system, act to

prevent Bitcoin been courted in any way. We must preserve the

principles of Satoshi Nakamoto. We have the power and the

initiative. You know the truth of the world: stop supporting your

own enemies. We dont need them. They need us! You are the

one empowering them. Withdraw your consent; withdraw your

support. Dont accept their terms or try to win a game where they

set the rules. Dont try to win your rulers favor. Dont bother to beg

for welfare or good treatment. Worst of all: dont help them hunt

down your neighbor. [Its] time we stick our flag in the ground and

make our stand.

Wired reported in September that the Bitcoin Foundation is joining

a taskforce to combat child pornography. Our taskforce will offer

balanced, effective solutions for policy makers, law enforcements,

regulators, and the public. The task force, which launched inAugust, is not solely focused child exploitation: the report detailed

how criminal and terrorist organizations have turned to digital

currency to reap profits from drug trafficking, prostitution, and a

dissemination of child abuse images.

One day master told slave, do this small thing and everything is

fine. Keep up the good work. The slave was happy because not

much was asked, so he started to create something really cool.

The master walked in a week later and said, do this as well. Theslave was shocked, but master, we had an agreement: you said I

only had to do this. Master responded, I changed my mind. You

need to do this as well. The slave reluctantly agreed. At least it

wasnt that bad. Over time, the master, more and more, increased

his demands on the slave. By now, the slave had created

something totally wonderful and was dependant on it, but the

master controlled his work and owned him.

The task of an activist is not to negotiate systems of power with as


29/30

much personal integrity as possible, its to dismantle those

systems.

The road is long and real work is needed: less talk and more

action. There are too few people in this world working onworthwhile things for the people, but even though the work load is

immense and daunting, there are concrete steps to achieve the

global objective. Truth happens. We will succeed. Dont wait

around for others to take action. We must dive head-first, without

regard for consequences, and beak the inertia of passivity. When

enough people do this, real change will occur. Fight for what you

believe in. If you believe and uphold a truth, then all your energy

should be devoted to your objectives. Any time you are accepting

compromise you are acting against your objective. None of us are

pure; we are all flawed and imperfect, but as good people, we

must strive for uncomplicated directness in our actions. Our

actions must be transparent in motive and pure in reasoning.

The power is within us. It always has been.

ABL: : Thanks for listening to episode 49 of Lets Talk Bitcoin.Content for todays show was provided by Nathaniel Castro,

Elizabeth Ploshay, and Amir Taaki. Additional editing was provided

by Mathew Zipkin, on-location engineering by Krystal Levine, and

music was provided by Jared Rubens. If you cant get enough

original thought and discussion, read our daily blog at

letstalbitcoin.com, set up for our weekly newsletter at

theweeklybitcoin.com. To get in touch send an email directly at

[email protected] or visit letstalkbitcoin.com/talk to bedirected to our listeners sub Reddit.

See you next time.

--- Music fades out ---


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Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 49, "Disruptive People"

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