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aixseneba, rogorc iracionaluri SiSi da siZulvili lesboseli, gei, biseqsuali da transgenderi adamianebis mimarT, romelic efuZneba winaswarganwyobas da emsgavseba rasizms, qsenofobias da seqsizmis.
paata sabelaSvili _ imisaTvis, rom Cveni saxelmwifo deklarirebul
rogorc Tvisobrivma da diskursiulma analizma aCvena, Seicvala negatiur
SefasebaTa konteqstic. Tuki 1999-2003 wlebSi homoseqsualobis “problemad” qcevas met-naklebad racionaluri argumentebiT cdilobdnen (mag. arsebuli homofobiuri mosazrebebis gasamyareblad media mimarTavda misTvis sasurvel eqspertebsa da specialistebs), dRes “gansxvavebuli” seqsualobis problematizaciisaTvis sakmarisad miiCneva “SeuTavsebloba/ winaaRmdegoba qarTul da marTlmadideblur tradiciebTan”.
Tu moraluri panikis xelovnurad Seqmnaze vsaubrobT, avtomaturad Cndeba kiTxva Tu vis aZlevs xels am sakiTxis garSemo arajansaRi aJiotaJis Seqmna da situaciis apokalipturad warmoCena?
negatiuri Sefasebebis TvalsazrisiT kvlevisas gamoikveTa adresantebis sami ZiriTadi jgufi:
pirveli antrepeniori, romelic homofobiuri teqstebis gavrceleba/tiraJirebas axdens, yviTeli presaa da am mxriv, misi daintereseba am TemiTa da “saSineli mtris xatis” SeqmniT advili asaxsnelia, radgan maTi tiraJi uSualod ukavSirdeba maT arsebobas.
nodar, ra tipis iracionalur SiSzea saubari, homofobiis SemTxvevaSi da aris Tu ara es iseTive problema umravlesobisTvis, rogorc umciresobisTvis.
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nodar sarjvelaZe _ rodesac homofobiaze vsaubrobT, igulisxmeba adamianebi, romlebsac gansxvavebuli swrafvani aqvT seqsualur sferoSi da igulisxmeba maTdami da maTi qmedebebisadmi damokidebuleba, romelsac vuwodebT fobias, SiSs, da iTvleba, rom is iracionaluria. albaT, unda veZioT am iracionaluri SiSis Zirebi. marTlac arsebobs Tu ara es SiSi da aqvs Tu ara mas safuZveli. safuZveli yvela SiSs aqvs. SiSi aris biologiuri reaqcia, romelic efuZneba raRac safrTxes da is am TvalsazrisiT, sruliad mizanSewonili reaqciaa. sxva ambavia, rodesac SiSi gadadis fobiaSi, anu fiqsirdeba rogorc qronikuli mdgomareoba, da adamiani gadametebulad ufrTxis raimes, es sxva sakiTxia, magram TviTon mis safuZvelSi arsebuli realobis TvalsazrisiT, SiSs Tavisi mizanSewoniloba gaaCnia.
Tu SevecdebiT literaturis mouSvelieblad SevecadoT imis gaazrebas, Tu ras SeiZleba es SiSi efuZnebodes, pirveli aris is, rom SiSis iwvevs arabunebrioba. es aris SiSi imis mimarT, rac bunebis kanonebis winaaRmdegia. adamians, romelic Tavisi swrafvebiT umravlesobas miekuTvneba, miaCnia, rom seqsualuri swrafva bunebrivia, rodesac is aris qalsa da mamakacs Soris da romlis Sedegadac ibadeba axali arseba. seqsualoba ganixileba mis im nawilTan kavSirSi, romelic momavali Taobis warmoqmnas ukavSirdeba. adamianSi, marTalia, erotizmi gamravlebis instinqtisgan gamocalkevda im TvalsazrisiT, rom damoukidebeli swrafvis funqcia SeiZina, gansxvavebiT cxovelebisgan. orsqesovan mentalitets efuZneba warmodgena imis Sesaxeb, rom Tavdapirveli arseba iyo erTsqesovani, androgini, mere gaixliCa orad, da maT Soris aris bunebrivi swrafva, raTa am swrafvis niadagze warmoiqmnas mesame arseba.
qorwineba ganxilulia, rogorc ojaxis Seqmnis winapiroba. ojaxi yovelTvis samwevriania: mSoblebi da Svili. yvelafer amas, saR azrs ewinaaRmdegeba homoseqsualoba. is upirispirdeba adamianis swrafvas bunebriobisaken. Tavisi Zirebi SeiZleba mas antikur epoqaSic hqonda, magram es problema yvelaze mkafiod wamoiWra protestantizmis periodSi, rodesac CaTvales, rom adamiani mxolod RmerTis winaSea angariSvaldebuli. kalvinistebma isic ki Tqves, rom bediswera gardauvalia, da Sesabamisad, yvelafris gakeTeba SeuZliaT, imitom, rom am SemTxvevaSi, gardauvalia maTi seqsualuri orientaciac, radgan is dakavSirebulia bediswerasTan. Tu bediswera dakavSirebulia uzenaesis nebasTan, maSin adamiani Tavisufldeba pasuxismgeblobisgan, is mxolod ganmxorcielebelia da meti araferi. naxes, rom Tu Tavisufldebi eklesiuri gansazRvrulobidan, da Tu pirdapir xar angariSvaldebuli gangebasTan, maSin gaqvs ufleba, Seni Rirseba da ufleba sakuTari ZalebiT daicva da wardge RmerTis winaSe rogorc sakuTar TavSi dafuZnebuli TviTkmari arseba. da Tu TviTkmari var, es Cems orientaciasac exeba. es xazi Seicavs Tavis dilemas, progresi kargia, adamianis uflebebi kargia, swrafva diskriminaciis moxsnisaken kargia, magram es ratomRac upirispirdeba bunebriobas. iseve rogorc teqnologiuri progresi upirispirdeba ekologiur sisufTaves da arRvevs bunebis wonasworobas.
meore SiSi imiT aixsneba, rom adamians aqvs miswrafeba, rom daefuZnos Tavis Zirs. es Ziri xSirad aris ara mxolod biologiuri, aramed igulisxmeba tradiciebic, im TvalsazrisiT, rom es aris istoriuli memkvidreoba da istoriulad aris ganpirobebuli da ara, vTqvaT, genetikurad. istoriuli ganipirobebulobis TvalsazrisiT, adamians aqvs midrekileba, SeinarCunos da daicvas tradiciebi. yvelaferi is, ras amas upirispirdeba, iwvevs SiSs. Tu Cemi istoriuli tradicia dairRva, miCndeba SiSi, rom raRac memuqreba. es SiSi istoriuli mdgradobis dakargvas ukavSirdeba.
mesame axsna SeiZleba iyos is, rom arc erTi socialuri jgufi ar aris mSvidobiani. yvelas aqvs Tavisi agresiuli muxti. sicocxle, rogorc ki warmoiSoba,
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iltvis eqspansiisaken, yovelTvis cdilobs gafarToebas da sivrcis amovsebas. nebismieri socialuri jgufi cdilobs Tavi ganavrcos. es swrafva axasiaTebs ara marto umravlesobas, aramed umciresobasac. mas zemoqmedebis Tavisi resursebi gaaCnia. umciresobis misia aris cvlilebis gamowveva. swored amis meoxebiT cdilobs umciresoba Tavis damkvidrebas. erTi mxriv aris cvlilebis gamowveva, meore mxriv TviTsegregacia, anu sakuTar TavSi Caketva da dapirispireba imiT, rom is ar aris iseTi, rogoric sxvaa. is Tavisi gansxvavebulobiT imkvidrebs sakuTar Tavs. Tu amas seqsualur planSi gadavitanT, da gaviTvaliswinebT imas, rom seqsi yovelTvis dakavSirebulia agresiulobasTan, gansakuTrebiT mamakacuri seqsi (nevrologiuradac, seqsualobis centri Tavis tvinSi axlos mdebareobs agresiulobis centrTan), gaupatiurebis, rogorc fenomenis arsebobac, metyvelebs imaze, rom agresiis muxti Cveulebriv seqsualobasac Tan axlavs. homoseqsualobasac axasiaTebs Tavisi agresiuloba. imitom, rom SeuZlebelia, moipovo partniori, Tu vinme ar acdune. seqsualuri partniori unda gaiCino. SeTavazebis dros, iseve rogorc mamakacsa da qals Soris flirtis dros xdeba SeTavazeba, cduneba, ayolieba, igivea aqac. es qmnis imis safuZvels, rom adamianebs eSiniaT homoseqsualTa mxridan agresiisa. miT umetes, Tu homoseqsualuri aqti cixeebSi an garkveul situaciebSi, dasjis saSualebad iTvleba.
nino danelia _ iqneb, ufro gamokveToT gansxvaveba homoseqsualur da
heteroseqsualur seqss Soris im TvalsazrisiT, rom SiSs mamakacis mier qalis gaupatiurebac iwvevs.
nodar sarjvelaZe _ gansxvaveba SeiZleba is iyos, rom seqsualuri
urTierTobebisadmi SiSi ufro qalisTvis aris damaxasiaTebeli, misi bunebidan modis. mamakaci, piriqiT, dakavSirebulia ara SiSTan, aramed SetevasTan. Seteva mamakacis seqsis nawilia. qali Tavisi bunebiT ufro TavdacviTia. mamakacs aqvs kastraciis SiSi; qalSi aris pretenzia, moipovos falosi. es aris gankacebis tendencia. qali dakavSirebulia SiSTan iracionalurad. man racionalurad icis, rom seqsSi araferi saSiSi ar aris, magram bavSvobidan esmis, rom es mtkivneulia da uyalibdeba iracionaluri SiSi. arsebobs virgoqorwinebis, – anu qalwulebrivi qorwinebis – uamravi faqti, rodesac qali wlebis ganmavlobaSi inarCunebs qalwulobas. magram es aris qalebisTvis damaxasiaTebeli SiSi. mamakaci ki, Tu mas utevs meore mamakaci, iZulebulia aRmoCndes qalis situaciaSi, risi survilic mas ar aqvs. amitom, mas uCndeba bunebrivi SiSi homoseqsualebis mimarT. am SiSs efuZneba siZulvili.
amis garda, aris sazogadoebis rRvevis SiSic. arsebobs SesaniSnavi wigni, `samasTa komiteti~, sadac naCvenebia msoflioSi mimdinare procesebis marTva elitaruli mmarTvelebis mier. albaT, gsmeniaT aldo moros skandaluri mkvlelobis Sesaxeb, 70-iani wlebis bolos. aldo moro1 gaxldaT italiis premier-ministri. is moitaces da awames. gamoZiebis Semdeg aRmoCnda, rom am ambavSi CarTulebi iyvnen “samasTa komitetis” wevrebi, romlebsac surdaT italiaSi SeemsubuqebinaT vatikanis zegavlena. maT davaleba hqondaT micemuli aldo morosTvis, rom aucileblad gaetarebina kanoni kontracepciisa da abortebis legalizaciisa da homoseqsualobis mfarvelobis Sesaxeb. aldo moro amis winaaRmdegi iyo da rogorc am wignSia moTxrobili, es gaxda misi mokvlis mizezi. anu, ara marto politikosebi iyeneben am Temas rogorc iaraRs, mowinaaRmdegis diskrimiaciisTvis, aramed piriqiTac xdeba,
1 23.09.1916-09.05.1978; qristian-demokrati politikosi 60-70-iani wlebis italiaSi, romelic “wiTel brigadebis” mier gatacebul da moklul iqna.
daviT arabiZe, ganaTlebis erovnuli kavSiri _ b-n paatas naTqvams minda
davubrunde. am Temis dekriminalizacia moxda 1992 wlis 11 agvistos aralegitimuri, ukanono, e.w. saxelmwifo sabWos mier. am sabWos eduard SevardnaZe Tavmjdomareobda. prezidiumis wevrebi iyvnen Tengiz sigua, jaba ioseliani da Tengiz kitovani. amazea saubari saxelmwifo sabWos uwyebanis me-2 tomSi. sainteresoa is, rom ori sakiTxi ganixileboda: saxelmwifo sabWos kontigentis Seyvana afxazeTSi da aRniSnuli statiis gauqmeba saqarTvelos sisxlis samarTlis kodeqsSi.
nino danelia _ Tqven ambobT, rom am Temis dekriminalizacia ar unda
momxdariyo? daviT arabiZe _ me mxolod imis Tqma minda, rom organom, romelic ar
warmoadgenda saqarTvelos respublikis mosaxleobis mier demokratiulad arCeul organos, miiRo es gadawyvetileba.
ana Tvauri, studenti _ xom ar SeiZleba homofobiis gamomwvevi mizezi iyos
arainformirebuloba an araswori informirebuloba am sakiTxze? Temur qoriZe, iuristi _ saqarTvelos realobaSi, rodesac adamianebs
SesaZloa, Sexeba ar hqondeT homoseqsualur garemosTan, maTi SiSi riT SeiZleba iyos gamowveuli? es mxolod sazogadoebisgan gariyvis SiSia Tu kidev sxva mizezebi aqvs mis warmoSobas?
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nodar sarjvelaZe _ rac Seexeba arainformirebulobas, homofobia Tavisi arsiT iracionaluri SiSia. amitom ramdeni informaciac ar unda miiRos adamianma, es SiSi ki ar moexsneba, piriqiT, gauZlierdeba. informaciam am SiSs SeiZleba axali argumentebic ki gauCinos. Cven gvgonia, rom informacia yovlisSemZlea, magram sinamdvileSi ase ar aris. adamianis cxovrebaSi aranaklebi Ziri aqvs emocias. xandaxan mopovebuli codna emsaxureba im emociuri mdgomareobis ganmtkicebas, rac mas ukve aqvs.
rac Seexeba Tqvens SekiTxvas imis Sesaxeb, Tu piradad ar icnoben maT, ratom aqvT winaswar maT mimarT SiSi, aqac igive faqtori moqmedebs. Tu mas iracionaluri SiSi aqvs, miaCnia, rom homoseqsualTan kontaqtSi Sesvlis SemTxvevaSi, viRacis mier daiZraxeba. es SiSi erTdroulad aris individualuric da socialuric.
nino danelia _ umravlesobis tiraniaze SeiZleba laparaki? nodar sarjvelaZe _ Tu aviRebT umravlesobis da umciresobis funqcias
sazogadoebaSi, vnaxavT, rom umravlesobas aqvs normalizaciis, normebis SemuSavebis da maTi dacvis funqcia. amitom mas aqvs SiSi, rom mis mier an misi winaprebis mier SemuSavebuli normebi ar dairRves. amitom is yovelmxriv Seecdeba moarul azrs, saSualo adamisnis azrs gauwios angariSi. imitom rom saSualo adamiani warmomadgenelia im azrisa, rac normativi unda iyos sazogadoebaSi. aqedan gamomdinare, mas eSinia `TeTr yvavad~ ar gamoCndes, ar gamoCndes iseTad, romelic ,,Cveniani~ ar aris.
nino danelia _ Tu SeiZleba sakiTxis ase dasma, rom saqarTvelos
mosaxleobis umravlesoba icavs raRac normebs, maTi gadasinjva, eWvqveS dayeneba da axleburad gaazreba ki iyos qveynis Semdgomi ganviTarebis sawindari?
paata sabelaSvili _ am kiTxvaze eka gipasuxebT, me 1992 wels saxelmwifo
sabWos dadgenilebas gamovexmaurebi. es dadgenileba ver Secvlida sisxlis samarTlis kodeqss. es iuridiulad gamoricxulia. moxda de faqto moratoriumis daweseba am muxliT adamianebis gasamarTlebaze. 1992 wlis Semdeg homoseqsualuri kavSiris gamo aravin dauWeriaT, magram dekriminalizacia moxda 2000 wlis 1 ivniss, rodesac evrosabWos moTxovniT ZalaSi Sevida sisxlis samarTlis axali kodeqsi. rac Seexeba moratoriumis periods, kriminalizacia Tavis rols mainc TamaSobda, imitom, rom uSiSroebis samsaxurebi da a.S amas SantaJisTvis iyenebdnen.
nino danelia _ rodesac sazogadoebis umravlesobisa da umciresobis
urTierTobaze vsaubrobT, maxsendeba xolme vaJa-fSavela da Temi da pirovnebis damokidebulebis sakiTxi. aris Tu ara msgavsi problema Cvens SemTxvevaSi?
eka aRdgomelaSvili _ albaT aris msgavsebac da gansxvavebac. homofobiis
Temas davubrundebi. Zalian didi xnis ganmavlobaSi eZebdnen termins, romelsac unda aRewera es damokidebuleba seqsualuri umciresobebis mimarT. iyo terminebi `seqsualuri winaswarganwyoba~, `heteroseqsizmi~, magram sabolood `homofobiaze~ SeCerdnen. homofobia ufro individualur doneze ganixileboda, Tumca ki, dRes ra datvirTviTac ixmareba es termini, es ar aris fobia wminda fsiqologiuri TvalsazrisiT. xSir SemTxvevaSi es aris sakmaod gaazrebuli damokidebuleba sazogadoebis erTi nawilisa sazogadoebis meore nawilis mimarT. fobia SeiZleba
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mJRavndebodes individualur, da koleqtiur donezec da amis uamravi magaliTi gvaqvs.
b-nma nodarma brZana, rom homofobiis gamovlenis erT-erTi mizezi SeiZleba iyos adamianis survili, warmoCindes sxvaze ufro aRmatebulad. es SeiZleba iyos romelime socialuri jgufisadmi mikuTvnebulobis damtkiceba, magaliTad, binZurad ixumros im mizniT, rom garSemomyofTa mowoneba daimsaxuros.
rac Seexeba koleqtiur fobias, amaze did gavlenas axdens konkretuli qveynis tradiciebi, ideologia da religia. erT-erTi faqtori namdvilad aris seqsualuri ganaTleba, romlis donec CvenTan Zalian dabalia. es gaxlavT seqsualuri SfoTvis xarisxi kulturaSi. rodesac qveyanaSi zogadad seqsualobaa tabuirebuli da represirebuli, da Cven swored aseTi kultura gvaqvs. aseT SemTxvevaSi, Zalian Znelia, adamianma, romelic ver iRebs sakuTar seqsualobas, miiRos adamiani, romelsac aqvs homoseqsualuri orientacia.
momxseneblebis saubridan gamoikveTa, rom es yvelaferi dasavleTidan modis. batonma axsena, rom protestantuli mimdinareobidan, Tumca gacilebiT ufro Rrma fesvebi aqvs, Tundac antikur saberZneTSi, elinur kulturaSi. yvelaferi es emsaxureba adamianis xrwnas, rameTu dasavleTis politikaa adamianis gaxrwna da garyvna. garyvnili adamiani advilad samarTavia.
ai, SexedeT axla: Semdeg aqvs pretenzia adamians, rom sazRvris dacvis samsaxurSi ar ayeneben. sakuTari kacoba ver dagicvia da qveynis dacva vin unda mogandos? madloba RmerTs, rom ar gandoben amas da rom kidev arian aseTi Rirseuli adamianebi SerCenilebi am qveyanaSi.
ratom eCxireba yelSi yvela uzneo da eris mter organizacias `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSiri~? maT Soris fond `inkluzivs~, `21-e saukunes~, hainrih biolis fonds da sakmarisia me mgoni.
nino danelia _ didi madloba. _ Tqven ra poziciaSi brZandebiT? nino danelia _ me var poziciaSi, romelic moderacias uwevs dRevandel
diskusias. _ pasuxi rom gagvceT, SeiZleba? nino danelia _ ara, ar vapireb pasuxis gacemas. Tu SeiZleba, gvacadeT
diskusiis gagrZeleba. Tqven icodiT ra aris diskusiis Tema, da SegeZloT ar mobrZanebuliyaviT.
paata sabelaSvili _ mogaxsenebT Tqvens SekiTxvaze pasuxs. es iyo sandro
kakabaZe...
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_ me kiTxva q-n ekas davusvi. Tu SeiZleba, Seuracxyofad ar miiRoT. me TqvenTvis ar momimarTavs.
paata sabelaSvili _ CvenTvis ar aqvs mniSvneloba. Tu gindaT pasuxi miiRoT
SekiTxvaze, miiRebT, Tu ar gindaT, ar miiRebT. Tu gainteresebT, getyviT. 2006 wlis noemberSi gavida siuJeti `kurier-postskriptumSi~, romelic am
gadacemis Jurnalistma sandro kakabaZem moamzada. is ideaSi amzadebda siuJets Cvens mier gamocemul Jurnal `me~-ze, da komentarisTvis mivida `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSirTan~. rac mTavaria, respodenti meore mxridan Zalian daibna, imitom, rom ar icoda am Jurnalis arsebobis Sesaxeb. amitom, Jurnalistma, komentari rom Caewera, saubari waiyvana iqiT, Tu ra azris iqneboda respodenti, Tuki saqarTveloSi gaimarTeboda gei-praidi. manac Zalian mosalodnelad upasuxa, rom winaaRmdegi iqneboda. aq Cven `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSiris~ pozicias ki ar vakritikebdiT, Jurnalistebis damokidebulebaze vsaubrobT. am Jurnalistma miakiTxa `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSirs~, romelmac arc ki icoda am Jurnalis Sesaxeb da sakuTari nebiT gamosZala negatiuri pozicia sruliad ganyenebuli movlenis, gei-praidis Sesaxeb. Cven sxva rames vgulisxmobdiT, magram Tqven SeiZleba sxvanairad miiReT, radgan am organizaciis wevrebi xarT.
daviT gabunia _ b-n nodaris argumentebidan gamomdinare, gamovitane daskvna,
rom homofobiis arsebobis gamamarTlebeli ramdenime safuZveli arsebobs. erT-erT magaliTad dasaxelebuli iyo Zaladoba, gamovlenili mamakacsa da mamakacs Soris. ratomRac araferi ar xorcieldeba am tradiciuli institutebis mier Tundac, ojaxuri Zaladobis winaaRmdeg. Tu ar vcdebi, mxolod patrulis SemoRebis Semdeg gaxda SesaZlebeli ojaxuri Zaladobis SemTxvevaSi daereka cols an qmars. arc bavSvebze ganxorcielebul ZaladobasTan dakavSirebiT gamoiTqmeba protesti.
me mgonia, rom arainformirebulobis bralia is, rom seqsualuri orientaciis mqone adamianebs tragizmis kuTxiT, saSiS pirovnebebad aRiqvams qarTuli sazogadoeba.
mainteresebs, ratom iTvleba Tundac am organizaciis mier gasarTobi RonisZiebis, “helovinis” darbeva gamarTlebulad, da ori xelCakidebuli geis seirnoba TbilisSi Zaladobis aqtad? (xmauri darbazSi)
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nodar sarjvelaZe _ Cemi daniSnuleba dRes is iyo, rom homofobiis arsze mesaubra. me marto Zaladobaze ar milaparakia.
nino danelia _ Tu SeiZleba, mivceT b-n nodars pasuxis gacemis saSualeba.
darbazs vTxov, mSvidad iyos, imitom rom yvelas eZleva kiTxvis dasmis saSualeba. Zalian gTxovT, nu moviqceviT provokaciulad da davelodoT kiTxvaze pasuxs. gmadlobT.
nodar sarjvelaZe _ gainteresebT? me Sevecade mesaubra homofobiaze, anu am
fobiis arsze da CamovTvale bunebriobis dakargvis SiSi, sazogadoebis rRvevis SiSi, garda Zaladobisa. Zaladoba erT-erTi maTgani iyo. rac Seexeba Zaladobis formebis proporciebs da imas, rogori reagireba movaxdinoT, es sakiTxis sxva mxarea. geTanxmebiT, rom ojaxuri Zaladobac problematuria da bavSvebze Zaladobac. magram Cemi mizani ar yofila specialurad Zaladobaze saubari.
daviT gabunia _ Tqven ojaxis institutis darRvevazec isaubreT da TqviT,
rom aman SesaZloa demografiul problemamde migviyvanos. me mgoni, ufro met problemas qmnis ojaxuri Zaladoba ojaxebSi, vidre gei-qorwinebis Sedegad bavSvis ayvana.
_ ra Temebis provocirebas axdenT? Svili _ kata an ZaRli, ara? nodar sarjvelaZe _ aq kontrargumenti ra SeiZleba iyos? daviT gabunia _ SesaZloa demografiuli problemis gadawyvetis kerac iyos
_ visze vZaladobT, biseqsualebze, homoseqsualebze Tu lesboselebze? nino danelia _ mapatieT me rom geubnebiT, Tqven Tavad unda xvdebodeT, rom
marTlmadidebloba pirvel rigSi aris moTmineba. aq arian adamianebi, visac undaT am Temaze debatebis mosmena.
paata sabelaSvili _ am organizaciis aqtivistebi xSirad isaxaven miznad
CaSalon da Sewyviton is sazogadoebrivi diskursi, romelsac Cven vikavebT. Cven ar vimyofebiT Tqveni organizaciis warmomadgenlobaSi. Cven vimyofebiT sxva organizaciis warmomadgenlobaSi, romelmac dagviTmo sajaro sivrce. Tqveni arCevania, isurvebT Tu ara am `uzneobaSi~ monawileobas.
nino danelia _ SegiZliaT ar miiRoT monawileoba da datovoT darbazi.
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paata sabelaSvili _ Tqveni piradi arCevania, SegiZliaT iyoT, an Tu gindaT, mibrZandiT. Zalian vTxovT yvelas, diskusiaSi ar Sevidnen am organizaciis aqtivistebTan, vinaidan es swored imisTvis aris gamiznuli, rom Cven rac SeiZleba naklebi salaparako dro mogveces.
giorgi lasuraSvili, `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSiri~ _ mainteresebs, am
adamianebTan erTad ratom ar moiwvieT samedicino muSaki, romelic auxsnida am adamianebs, ra dadebiTi mxare aqvs, Tu aqvs am problemas, da ra _ uaryofiTi, rogorc sulierad, ise xorcielad, rogorc fsiqologiurad, ise adamianuri fizikuri problemis mxriv.
b-nma nodarma Zalian kargad Camoayaliba, kmayofili var, is, rom aq aris winaaRmdegoba bunebriobasa da arabunebriobas Soris da daaskvna, rom es yvelaferi urtyams kacobriobis fesvebs, anu, iwvevs kacobriobis gadagvarebas. aqdan gamomdinare Cndeba SekiTxvebi. pirveli: rodesac vsaubrobT imaze, rom es saqarTveloSi ar unda iyos, rom amas giSlian, rom eklesia sawolSi giwvebaT..
paata sabelaSvili _ es metafora iyo da gageba sWirdeba. giorgi lasuraSvili _ amisTvis saTanadod unda CamoayaliboT. eklesia ar
aris Tqveni xelwamosakravi da Tu koreqtulobisken sxvas mouwodebT, pirvel rigSi Tavad unda iyoT koreqtulebi. es gaiTvaliswineT, meored aseTi Secdoma ar dauSvaT.
Tqven xelovnurad qmniT am problemas, rom damcirebulad igrZnoT Tavi. sinamdvileSi Tqveni `mamebi~ dasavleTidan xels giwyoben rom wamowioT win es mavne da bodiSs vixdi, uzneo orientacia da tradiciuli azrovnebis adamianebi, romlebic Seadgenen mosaxleobis umravlesobas, da am tradiciebiT modis Cveni qveyana, saukunea, am tradiciebs CvenTvis problema arasodes ar Seuqmnia. b-nma nodarmac brZana, ori sxvadasxva pirovnebis urTierTmizidviT xdeba gamravleba. da saukuneebis dasawyisSi homoseqsualebi rom yofiliyvnen, riTi gamravldebodnen?
nino danelia _ didi madloba. giorgi lasuraSvili _ q-ns minda davusva SekiTxva. me gamaRizianes da
gamanerviules aq Sekrebilma pirebma. Tqven, qalbatono, rodesac sxvis oxvraze laparakobT, da sxvisgan ar mogwonT SeniSvnebi, ratom moixseniebT ase `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSirs~, rom visac ar moswons Tqveni orientacia, garbian `marTlmadidebel mSobelTa kavSirSi~? citirebas vaxden Tqveni sityvebis. ra SuaSia gaqceva? adamiani, romelsac awuxebs Tavisi tradiciebi, awuxebs im adamianis sve-bedi, romelic acda gzas, daRupvisken midis da sxvasac ubiZgebs daRupvisken, es aris uzneobis da gadagvarebis gza, rogorc b-nma nodarmac Tqva. Tqveni SefasebiT ki, Tu vinmem ar dagicvaT, is aris radikali, fanatikosi da a.S. didi madloba.
paata sabelaSvili _ am problemis xelovnurobas xazi esmeva darbazSi,
ramdenad xelovnurad aris igi warmodgenili Cvens sazogadoebaSi. rac Seexeba imas, rom aqamde amas saqarTveloSi problema arasodes ar Seuqmnia, da es dasavleTidan Semovida, aris tyuili. TviTon saeklesio teqstebSic dasturdeba..
ufleba, Tavisi protesti da Sexeduleba daafiqsiros, maT Soris, eklesias, marTlmadidebel eklesiasac. axlaxans obama gamovida indianas universitetSi da amas saprotesto manifestaciebi mohyva. amerika, – albaT, yvelaze religiuri qveyana, – axerxebs dabalansebas. erTi mxriv, konservatoruli pozicia aqvs protestantul eklesiebs, baptistebs, evangelur eklesiebs, magram iq ar aris diskriminacia. yovel SemTxvevaSi, am filmSi, `harvi milqSi~2 es ar Cans, garda religiuri umravlesobis damokidebulebisa.
Tqven rom axseneT manifestacia, romelic ramdenime wlis win unda gamarTuliyo da aRar gaimarTa, da romelSic yvela umciresobas unda mieRo monawileoba, gamodis, rom demokratizacia damokidebulia TviTon sazogadoebis gaJRenTilobasTan religiur-nacionaluri ideologiiT. am mxriv, gamodis, rom ruseTi ufro demokratiuli qveyanaa. 2006 wlidan iq es msvlelobebi imarTeba, masSi cnobili adamianebi, momRerlebic monawileoben; marTalia cemen, magram vin cems maT? religiur-eqstremistuli jgufebi, faSistebi da bolo periodSi daiwyes komunistebmac, policiamac, magram yovel SemTxvevaSi, imarTeba. aq es mcdeloba gancxadda da Semdeg ukan daixies. mainteresebs, es ratom moxda, ra SiSi gaCnda. me vfiqrob, rom es umciresobebis, ginda religiuris da eTnikuris Sekreba ki ar unda yofiliyo, aramed, es unda yofiliyo manifestacia adamianis uflebebisaTvis. SeiZleba marto am Temaze, homoseqsualTa diskriminaciis winaaRmdeg, da unda moewviaT yvela adamiani, visac amis survili eqneboda, orientaciis da kanis feris miuxedavad. Tu iqneba aseTi manifestacia, me miviReb masSi monawileobas.
_ es yvelaferi wamovida protestantizmidan, anu RmerTisgan gandgomidan.
kaci, romelic RmerTs uRalatebs, is yvelaferze wamsvlelia. nino danelia _ modiT, Cven nu visaubrebT imaze, vin vis uRalata. nuravis nu
ganvsjiT. es Zalian didi mkrexelobaa. batonebo, Zalian gTxovT... _ ai, Tqveni organizebuli Sexvedra da Tqveni mowveuli stumrebi. _ Cven, rogorc rigiTi damswreebi, mogiwodebT am Sexvedris organizatorebs,
rom es uzneo adamianebi gaaZevoT Sexvedridan, biseqsualebi, TavianTi vai-advokatebiT.
2 saubaria amerikeli reJisoris gas van sentis filmis – “milqis” (“Milk”) – Sesaxeb, romelic gviCvenebs amerikeli politokosis da gei aqtivistis harvi milqis (22.05.1930-27.11.1978) cxovrebis ambavs.
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nino danelia _ Zalian gTxovT, datoveT darbazi. Tu ar mogwonT, monawileobas nu miiRebT, nu gaxdebiT uzneobis nawili da datoveT darbazi.
nino leJava _ dabrZzandiT Tqven adgilebze, an datoveT darbazi. es aris
hainrih biolis fondi, sadac Tqven mosulebi xarT diskusiiTvis. zogi adamiani umciresobaSia, zogi _ umravlesobaSi. ra tipis umciresobaa, es
CemTvis ar aris mniSvnelovani. me am fonds warmovadgen aq imisTvis, rom yvela adamians hqondes azris gamoTqmis Tavisufleba.
gTxovT, daicaviT simSvide. ase moqceva ar SeiZleba. Tu aq mobrZandiT diskusiisTvis da sxva miznebi ar gamoZravebT, gTxovT, dabrZandeT da rogorc Tqvenma kolegebma da megobrebmac ukve ramdenjerme mogiwodes, daicaviT simSvide. aseve vTxov b-n vasil kobaxiZes, daicaviT simSvide. ramdenime axalgazrdam, romelsac sxva azri gaaCnda, datova darbazi – imitom, rom agresiuli iyo. yvelas davatovebinebT darbazs, vinc ase moiqceva.
Tu Tqven es diskusia ar mogwonT da uzneobad migaCniaT, es Tqveni Tavisufali arCevania, SegiZliaT gabrZandeT aqedan. Tqven aravis ar uuZulebixarT, aravis piradad aq ar mouwvevixarT, da Tu aq mobrZandiT, unda daicvaT garkveuli wesebi. SevTanxmdiT. gmadlobT.
Cven xSirad gadavdivarT aseT radikalur, ara saWiro pirad Seuracxyofaze. da mTavari sakiTxi, romelsac sWirdeba argumentirebuli diskusia, gvisxlteba xelidan. mogveciT saSualeba, am Temaze mSvidad vimsjeloT. Tqven bevrjer mogeciT sityva, moqmedebis saSualebac mogecaT, amitom Zalian gTxovT, axla nu SeecdebiT diskusiis CaSlas. Tu uzneobad migaCniaT da ar gindaT, SegiZliaT datovoT darbazi.
daviT arabiZe _ me SemTxveviT ar vaxsene 1992 wlis 11 agvisto. Tu
vsaubrobT demokratiaze, maSin unda vifiqroT, rom am qveyanaSi aris eri, romelsac gaaCnia Tavis faseulobaTa sistema, anu ideologia. is, rasac Tqven gvTavazobT, ideologiaa. rasakvirvelia, dRes SeiZleba mas ar gvTavazobT foladis xmliT. magram ra gansxvavebaa im qmedebaSi, romelic jalaledinma Caidina, rodesac cdilobda garkveuli ideologia xmliT moexvia CvenTvis, da Tqvens qmedebaSi.
dRes Tqveni ideologia Tavs maxvevs imas, rom Turme ojaxi aris daxuruli saaqcio sazogadoeba, romelic iqmneba mxolod erToblivi qonebis samarTavad. es, rasakvirvelia, warmoSobs Cvengan winaaRmdegobis gawevis survils. miuxedavad imisa, rom Cveni organizacia saero da profkavSiruli tipis organizaciaa, minda icodeT, rom CvenTvis legitimurad arsebuli saSualebebiT ideologiuri barikadis im mxares davdgebiT, romlis Tanaxmadac Tqveni qmedeba aRiqmeba rogorc murvan yrus da jalaledinis qmedeba. minda, TqvenTvis naTeli iyos, rom es ar aris mxolod politikuri radikalebis da eqstremistebis pozicia. es aris im adamianebis pozicia, romlebic dganan im RirebulebaTa sistemaze, romelsac mravalsaukunovani pozicia gaaCnia.
Tqven ikiTxeT, ratom ar unda imsaxuron SeiaraRebul ZalebSi am orientaciis adamianebma. magaliad, satanko ekipaJSi aris tradiciuli orientaciis adamiani da aris ori aratradiciuli orientaciis adamiani. am adamianebma sabrZolo operaciis
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Sesrulebis dros mterze unda ifiqron Tu imaze, rom SeiZleba seqsualuri interesis sagani gaxdes?
organizaciaSi Tu gyavT qali TanamSromlebi? samsaxureobrivi movaleobis Sesrulebis dros seqsualuri devna Tu ,,домогание'' dauSvebelia nebismieri sqesis adamianebs Soris. ratom fiqrobT, Tu ori adamiani erTad zis tankSi, es aucileblad ase unda damTavrdes?
aseT pirobebSi diskusiaSi monawileobas azri ara aqvs. ver gavagrZeleb ase saubars.
nodar sarjvelaZe _ es isev im bunebrivi SiSis gamoxatulebaa, rac aqvT
adamianebs. paata sabelaSvili _ ratom amarTlebT amas b-no nodar? nodar sarjvelaZe _ me arafers ar vamarTleb, ubralod, vambob, rom SiSs
orientacia? Tu maincdamainc, heteroseqsuali var. _ Tqven ara marto heteroseqsuali, uzrdeli heteroseqsuali yofilxarT. (darbazSi xangrgZlivi ayalmayalis Semdeg “marTlmadidebel mSobelTa
kavSiris” wevrebs daatovebines Senoba.)
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nino danelia _ Cven am aTemaze saubrisas gvindoda kontrargumentebis mosmena da ara am Zaladobis momswre vyofiliyaviT. did bodiSs gixdiT momxdarisTvis, aqve didi madlobac minda gadagixadoT imisTvis, rom gamoiCineT simSvide da dapirispireba kidev ufro radikalur formebSi ar gadaizarda.
paata sabelaSvili _ b-n nodaris moxsenebas minda Sevxebodi. Cven ar mogveca
imis saSualeba, rom Cveni diskusia gadagvetana adamianis uflebebis dacvis WrilSi. minda aRvniSno, rom Cven mxolod qorwinebaze vsaubrobdiT da ara ojaxze. Cveni organizacia ar moiTxovs saqarTveloSi erTsqesiani qorwinebis dakanonebas am etapze. ubralod, me gangimartavT, ras emyareba xolme aseTi qorwinebis moTxovna. ratom ar gvesmis es moTxovna? imitom rom Cven jer heteronormatiul konteqstSic ar gvaqvs qorwineba srulebiT gacnobierebuli, Tavisi uflebrivi meqanizmebiT da SedegebiT.
im SemTxvevaSi, rodesac qal da mamakac partniorebs aqvT saxelmwifosgan miRebuli ufleba, daaregistriron TavianTi partnioroba da amiT moipovon is uflebebi, rac dauregistrireblad ar eqnebodaT, da rodesac erTi sqesis partniorebsac surT daaregistriron TavianTi uflebebi igive kanoniT, da maT amis alternatiuli saSualeba ar eZlevaT, amas diskriminacia hqvia. adamiani ar SeiZleba iyos nawilobriv Tanaswori. Tanasworoba aris absoluturi kategoria da ver iqnebi ufro metad an naklebad Tanaswori.
da davamateb, homoseqsualoba ar aris daavadeba, es gadawyvetili ambavia, mogvwons Tu ara, es Cvenze ar aris damokidebuli. Cven ar vambobT iseT rames, rac ukve gadawyvetili ar aris da razec ar aris msoflios civilizebuli nawili SeTanxmebuli. amis miRma Cven ar gavdivarT. Cveni muSaobis principi aris adamianis uflebebi. yvelaze mniSvnelovani faseulobaa adamianis uflebaTa kanonis uzenaesoba.
Sorena gabunia, xelovnebaTmcodne, hainrih biolis fondis stipendianti _
Tqven isaubreT homofobiis gare faqtorebze. me erT sakiTxze minda yuradReba gavamaxvilo. bolo periodSi Sexeba mqonda am TemasTan, Tu rogor aRiqvams Tbilisis gei sazogadoeba Signidan homofobias. aris aseTi gamoTqma, Tu ginda gaigo, vin aris yvelaze didi homoseqsuali, daakvirdi, vin akeTebs yvelaze xmamaRal homofobiur gancxadebebs.
homoseqsualebisgan gamigia, rom maT homofobia saerTod ar awuxebT. maTgan isic gamigia, rom eTanxmebian aseT ganwyobas. imitom, rom aRizianebT maneruli geebi, adamianebi, romlebic Tavian qamin-auTs am formiT akeTeben, yvelafriT, CacmiTac da verbaluradac afiqsireben TavianT seqsualur orientacias. da maT aseT manerul adamianebTan ufro meti konfliqti aqvT, vidre homofobiurad ganwyobil adamianebTan. Cemi azriT, es tradiciuli patriarqaluri fesvebidan mowyvetis SiSia.
is, rom homoseqsuali mamakaci aucileblad maneruli unda iyos, gavrcelebuli stereotipia, rac simarTles ar Seesabameba. sinamdvileSi, maTi umetesoba aris Caketili mamakacuri, mkveTrad maskulinuri sazogadoeba. ase rom, es gavrcelebuli stereotipia.
paata sabelaSvili _ maneruli geebis qamin-auTi maTi arCevani ar aris. amitom
xdeba am stereotipis gaZliereba, rom maincdamainc maneruli unda iyos gei. sxvadasxva qveyanaSi Catarebuli kvlevebis mixedviT, geebis mxolod 10-dan 15%-mdea maneruli. igive SeiZleba iTqvas heteropopulaciazec, ubralod, Zalian bevri heteroseqsuali vici, romelic gei hgoniaT, mxolod imitom, rom maskulinobis maTi aRqma ar Seesabameba mis TviTgamoxatvas.
ina inariZe, qalTa iniciativebis mxardamWeri jgufi _ didi madloba imisTvis,
rom gagrZelda diskusia. SekiTxva maqvs b-n nodarTan: Tqven TqviT, rom bunebrivia, rom ar unda iCagrebodnen adamianebi, magram es unda gavigoT. mainteresebs, igive gansazRvreba exeba Tu ara, magaliTad, erovnuli umciresobis warmomadgenlebs? gamosavali ra SeiZleba iyos?
erTgvari gatacebaa demokratiuli institutebis, romelic eyrdnoba raRac sabazo daSvebas. am sabazo daSvebis mixedviT, Tu aris umciresoba, is aucileblad iCagreba, mas Cagravs umravlesoba. es iseTive winaswarganwyobaa, rogorc, magaliTad, rasizmi. gansakuTrebiT xSirad aseTi damokidebuleba aqvT saerTaSoriso organizaciebs. sinamdvileSi, es yovelTvis ase ar aris. piriqiT, xandaxan umciresoba sakmaod agresiulia da utevs umravlesobas. rogorc wesi, umciresoba axdens revoluciebs. umciresoba yovelTvis ar aris daCagruli. piriqiT, xandaxan umciresoba aris mCagvreli. Tumca, diskriminaciebi, rogorc eTnikuri, ise seqsualuri, arsebobs. magram eseni absoluturad gansxvavebuli Temebia. magaliTad, segregacia arsebobs eTnikuri umciresobis dros, magram ar arsebobs seqsualuri umciresobis dros. ginaxavT Tqven mxolod homoseqsualebiT dasaxlebuli teritoria?
eka aRdgomelaSvili _ arsebobs, getoebi. getoebi gadataniTi mniSvnelobiT. nodar sarjvelaZe _ yovel SemTxvevaSi, es erTeuli SemTxvevebia. me imis Tqma
minda, rom gaigiveba eTnikuri umciresobis Tematikisa da problemebisa, seqsualuri umciresobis sakiTxebTan me arasworad mimaCnia. maT mxolod is akavSirebT, rom umciresobani arian. diskriminaciis wesebi da meqanizmebic sxvadasxvaa da mizezebic. imaSi geTanxmebiT, rom rodesac adamianis uflebebis dacviTi RonisZiebebi tardeba, iq unda iyos situaciis gaTanabreba.
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paata sabelaSvili _ adamianis uflebebis dacva an daucveloba aris erTi konkretuli faqti da ara aqvs mniSvneloba, romel umciresobas miekuTvneba adamiani. am niadagze Tu irRveva misi ufleba, es aris aRmosafxvreli, amazea laparaki.
nodar sarjvelaZe _ Zalian mniSvnelovania identobis problema; is, Tu
konkretuli adamiani vis miakuTvnebs sakuTar Tavs. TviToeuli CvenTagani mravali identurobis matareblebi varT. es aris profesiuli, nacionaluri, subkulturuli da sxva identobebi. problema is aris, roca adamians ukrZalaven identobis qonas, roca misi identoba aris ara aRiarebis, aramed raRac iseTi, rac ar unda iqnas aRiarebuli. es aerTianebs umciresobebs, Torem sxva mxriv, gansxvavebuli Tematikaa.
paata sabelaSvili _ absoluturad geTanxmebiT. Cemi seqsualuri identoba ar
unda daiyvanebodes masis SiSebze da viRacis problemebze. nodar sarjvelaZe _ bunebrivia, umravlesobam unda gaigos da scnos
umciresobis identobis ufleba, magram seqsualurma umciresobamac unda gaigos im SiSis safuZveli, rac adamians SeiZleba hqondes mis mimarT. me gamarTlebaze ar vlaparakob.
nino danelia _ didi madloba. kidev erTxel gibodiSebT im emociuri