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OT Historical Books discuss 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
in the The Scriptures forums; Itpuzzles me why David went to Gath.
It is a crazy thing to do, another Philistine city perhaps but
Gath?Carrying Goliath's sword? Yet ...
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09-09-2013, 04:35 PM
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1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
It puzzles me why David went to Gath. It is a crazy thing to do,
another Philistine cityperhaps but Gath? Carrying Goliath's sword?
Yet we learn that Ahimelech sought theLord for David from Doeg the
Edomite and from Ahimelech himself. Moreover Ahimelechhad sought
the Lord on David's behalf before.
What then was the answer? If we take the actions of David to be
in obedience to Godthen he was told to go to Gath. Once there
however he was seized rather than fetedand faith gave way to fear.
In that moment David switched from offering his services tofeigning
madness. This I think is where David "failed" - his faith could not
keep pacewith God's protection.
This all seems speculative and flies in the face of most
commentators: until we readchapter 27 when David returns to
Achish's court and is well received. Moreover in theprovidence of
God David is able to fight the Philistines and pass off the
captured bootyas Hebrew in origin.
Can you refute me from the text?
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
#1
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Eoghan
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09-09-2013, 05:21 PM
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Gordon J. Keddie, "Dawn of a Kingdom" (EP) says that, "David's
flight to Philistia .....wasa failure of faith."
"The events of his escape called him to stand his ground rather
than run away. Butoppression makes many a wise man mad
(Ecclesisates 7:7). And David ran to Jonathanand then to Ahimelech,
spraying his path with lies and deceptions that were later tostain
his conscience with blood (22:22)."
Richard Tallachcommunicant member, Knox Free Church,Perth,
Scotland GB
His Name forever shall endure;last like the sun it shall:Men
shall be blessed in Him,and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps.
72:17)
#2
Puritanboard Doctor
Peairtach
09-10-2013, 02:19 AM
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I was interested in Walter Chantry's observation, "Was David not
capable of doubleentendre?" The question was which "King" he was on
a mission for? I just wonder ifDavid went to Gath in response to
the word of the Lord?
Even if David did not go in obedience to the Lord's command - he
went in chapter 27 ina manner consistent with faith.
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
#3
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Eoghan
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09-10-2013, 11:07 AM
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I take it as an interpretive maxim, that generally when we see
one of the Israelitesgoing out of the promised land (be it Abraham,
or Elimelech, or David, etc.), it is a badsign.
I do not see ch.27 as intended to be viewed in a basically
positive way, but in fact asfraught with peril. It sets David on a
course that will ultimately bring near-disaster onhim, his calling,
and Israel, as he is boxed into a situation (ch.29) from which
there is nohonorable or good move (but God delivers him, through
much fire).
Yes, in ch.27 David operates partly "consistent with his faith"
as he labors to deliverIsrael in a "masked-crusader" manner. But he
had finally left the land earlier because hisfaith faltered. Saul's
oppression had finally worn down David's divine trust; he assumedhe
must have used up "eight-lives," or "two-strikes." He thought he
couldn't surviveanother of Saul's assaults, while not forsaking his
"goodly heritage," or the people ofGod who should (eventually)
wholly trust in him.
Perhaps, due to David's disappearance entirely from the land,
and his shadow-defenseof only a Judean flank--instead of (perhaps)
finding a new shelter among the northerntribes--we witness a "lost
opportunity" for the eventual king to forge a strongerallegiance
with those northern tribes to his house. The happy union of the
whole peopleunder the reign of the house of David only lasted for
one more generation; then thenorth broke away.
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
4:12
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#4
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
09-10-2013, 07:07 PM
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#5
Puritanboard Junior
Eoghan
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
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8/3/2014 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
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I beg to differ it can be to a place of safety -
Elijah lodged with the widow of Zarapheth in SidonJacob went to
EgyptMary and Joseph lodged in Egypt
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
I take it as an interpretive maxim, that generally when we see
one of the Israelites goingout of the promised land (be it Abraham,
or Elimelech, or David, etc.), it is a bad sign.
09-10-2013, 07:23 PM
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27
Living in Israel was "fraught with peril". As chapter 27
explains Saul stopped seekingDavid when he learned he was at Gath.
Not only so but as the commentators observeDavid had responsibility
for his men - 600 in number, their wives and children. Hisdecision
to move into Gath gave refuge to his men and their families. As
such it was aresponsible move.
Moreover he removed the threat to any in Israel who helped him.
Saul had already killedthe priests at Nob for helping David -
innocent of complicity. How much more wouldSaul's wrath be kindled
against anyone knowingly helping the fugitive and outlaw.
To dwell on what disaster might have befallen David in chapter
29 is speculative. Indeedone might be tempted to ask similar
questions of Jonathans presumption in climbing upto the Philistine
garrison. That could have ended badly for Jonathan - no?
Given the historical events I am inclined to observe the
providential care which God hadfor David. This finds expression in
Psalm 34 and 56 neither of which are penitential and aconfession of
sin!
David's trust in God's providential care was vindicated. His
actions saved the lives of
many in Israel who would otherwise have been held accountable
for giving succor toSaul's enemies and shows concern for the family
life of his followers. David's characteras a shepherd is still
there!
#6
Puritanboard Junior
Eoghan
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
I do not see ch.27 as intended to be viewed in a basically
positive way, but in fact asfraught with peril. It sets David on a
course that will ultimately bring near-disaster onhim, his calling,
and Israel, as he is boxed into a situation (ch.29) from which
there is nohonorable or good move (but God delivers him, through
much fire).
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Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
09-11-2013, 01:10 AM
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All of these were sent out of the land on a particular mission,
by the direction of God.We don't even have to guess about it, as if
from the results. The directions are quotedin Holy Writ.
I can add to the list begun in your post above:Jonah.Elisha,
2Ki. 8:7.Joseph, involuntarily, but as was made plain, by divine
design.
And we can add to the list of those who left voluntarily, and
had sorry experience, Those who fled Israel for the "safety" of
Egypt, Jer.42-44.
Compare with the people who were exiled--that is, sent out of
the land forchastisement:Jacob (typological), on his way to
Padan-Aram.Threats to return the people to Egypt, Hos.9:3.Assyrian
(northern) and Babylonian (southern) exiles.
#7
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
Originally Posted by Eoghan
I beg to differ it can be to a place of safety -
Elijah lodged with the widow of Zarapheth in SidonJacob went to
EgyptMary and Joseph lodged in Egypt
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
I take it as an interpretive maxim, that generally when we see
one of theIsraelites going out of the promised land (be it Abraham,
or Elimelech, orDavid, etc.), it is a bad sign.
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Enemies and wicked men who took refuge among the Gentile
nations:Hadad the Edomite and Rezon son of Eliadah,
1Ki.11:14-25.Jeroboam, 1Ki.11:40.
The evidence is overwhelming, so far as I can see it. Israel,
and individual Israelitesbelonged nowhere but in the Promised Land.
The borders of the land might be extended,but that would be at the
expense of those nations surrounding. The enemies of God'speople
would lose ground.
A person might leave the land temporarily, as for business,
diplomacy, etc., even for avery long time. But always with a return
in view. And those who were sent forth bydivine commission
evidently went out of the land by faith, with expectation that
hewould come home again. It was culturally significant that the
Israelite be buried "withhis fathers" (cf.1Ki.13:22; 14:31
etc.).
You're welcome to disagree, however I find this interpretive
maxim to be one helpfulinter-textual key underlying OT theology;
which then finds its epochal asymptotic shiftin the cross, as the
NT age reveals no more a typological geographical kingdom onearth,
but instead God sending his church en masse away from a
geopoliticalconcentration. Now the church is back in Egypt/world,
free-but-in-exile, journeying inthe wilderness.
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom
in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give usTo see ourselves as others
see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) Click to get: Board Rules
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09-11-2013, 02:14 AM
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#8
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
Originally Posted by Eoghan
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
I do not see ch.27 as intended to be viewed in a basically
positive way,but in fact as fraught with peril. It sets David on a
course that willultimately bring near-disaster on him, his calling,
and Israel, as he isboxed into a situation (ch.29) from which there
is no honorable or goodmove (but God delivers him, through much
fire).
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8/3/2014 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
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7/16
You're free do differ. It's fine with me. I'm confident in the
representatives of thehistory of interpretation with whom I
side.
God had promised David the throne. The only way Saul could have
his life would be ifGod were not true to his word. Ergo, David's
self-counsel ("David said in his heart, 'Ishall perish someday by
the hand of Saul," 1Ki.27:1) was deceitful above all things.There
were other options besides running for the border. David does not
"inquire of theLord" on this occasion, as he had done in times
past.
And if (as I am) one is predisposed to at least question the
wisdom of such a move ontheological grounds, then the disturbing
fallout of this choice can easily appear to beevidence of it's
innate folly. So no, I cannot agree that remaining inside Israel's
borderscarried anything like the same degree of PERIL as leaving
did.
Premature judgment in praise of moving David's men and their
families to Ziklag, 27:6,should be tempered by the grievous results
that are reported in 30:1. That peril is whatDID in fact overtake
all those vulnerable people precisely BECAUSE they were in such
aplace. If it was improper for David to move himself and all his
men and their chattels outof Israel, then David was culpable before
God (though not men) for any harm thathappened to them.
Speculating about whether such a captivity or similar would have
taken place also insidethe land is true special pleading. Pointing
at Nob doesn't justify David's self-counsel andhis decision; nor
does pointing at some "good" come about, when we likewise do
notknow if that good was less than what might have been
accomplished had he stayed.Those are pragmatic judgments, not
theological or ethical ones.
And even if one possessed the divine-awareness of what should
happen withoutintervention, one should always do as God has
revealed (i.e. remain in the land), not aswe think things will work
out best. We might as well speculate that God could havemade David
king months or years earlier than he did, if he had remained, by
removingSaul sooner. Perhaps David's departure left Saul to reign,
and the people suffer him, forthat much longer (all in God's
providence).
Simple fact: in 1Sam.29 I'm not speculating at all about what
David is "really" thinkingwhen he promises to assist the
Philistines against Israel. We don't know, and the textleaves all
of that in a bewildering fog of uncertainty. Would David take this
moment tostrike at Saul? Would he do as Achish's fellow princes
feared, and strike the Philistines
Living in Israel was "fraught with peril". As chapter 27
explains Saul stopped seekingDavid when he learned he was at Gath.
Not only so but as the commentators observeDavid had responsibility
for his men - 600 in number, their wives and children. Hisdecision
to move into Gath gave refuge to his men and their families. As
such it was aresponsible move.
Moreover he removed the threat to any in Israel who helped him.
Saul had already killedthe priests at Nob for helping David -
innocent of complicity. How much more wouldSaul's wrath be kindled
against anyone knowingly helping the fugitive and outlaw.
To dwell on what disaster might have befallen David in chapter
29 is speculative. Indeedone might be tempted to ask similar
questions of Jonathans presumption in climbing upto the Philistine
garrison. That could have ended badly for Jonathan - no?
Given the historical events I am inclined to observe the
providential care which God hadfor David. This finds expression in
Psalm 34 and 56 neither of which are penitential anda confession of
sin!
David's trust in God's providential care was vindicated. His
actions saved the lives ofmany in Israel who would otherwise have
been held accountable for giving succor toSaul's enemies and shows
concern for the family life of his followers. David's characteras a
shepherd is still there!
-
8/3/2014 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
http://www.puritanboard.com/f40/1-samuel-21-god-sends-david-gath-80394/
8/16
from behind? Any course David might follow would jeopardize some
holy thing or person.That is the point of the text, and he is only
extricated from the scene by God's movingAchish to reluctantly side
with his peers against his (presumed) lieutenant.
But the fire of David's ordeal is only just then begun, as he
and his men return to theburned-out ruins of Ziklag, ch.30. You
can't persuade me that with the stench of smokein his nostrils, and
stomach-churning loss, and fear for his own life at the hands of
hisown men, that David isn't seriously questioning his
non-divinely-directed move to thisforeign-soil outpost. Only now
does he "inquire of the Lord," v8. Since 27:1, it's been allhuman
wisdom, and spending his spiritual capital.
But of course, David is never out of God's providential care. I
don't need Pss. 34 (afterhis first flight) and 56 (in light of
events of his second) to offer any explicit confessionof sin, in
order to validate my contention. God does, in fact, bring
sufficient good out ofthis situation, showing how he is able to use
even those acts of his servants that aremixed with errors small and
great. He make deliverances. He brings the man after hisown heart
to the throne, after trying him sore.
After all, David doesn't achieve the throne because he's never
been sinful or foolish.Like all the other OT heroes, David is
exalted in spite of his many flaws and failures. He'sgreat because
God makes him great.
Blessings,
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom
in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give usTo see ourselves as others
see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) Click to get: Board Rules
-- Signature Requirements-- Suggestions? -- Sermons
09-11-2013, 02:49 AM
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27
There is a freedom we are given to act without divine
revelation. This is the case todayas it has been in the past
(charismatics aside). The choices we make are not on thewhole
sinful missing God's perfect will. I take it as an established
principle that God is asmuch in charge of providence as He is of
the miraculous. By exercising ourselves inaccord with God's
revealed will we grow and demonstrate what motivates us.
David had regard to those who followed him and sought respite
from Saul's fury for themas much as for him. The death of the
priests at Nob were on his conscience and heavoided making any
Israelite complicit with him. In both these regards his character
isexemplary. We are armchair quarterbacks who sit in judgement
without ever having thatexperience of being fugitive from the
authorities.
Post Holocaust I think we can better judge the ethics of lying
in extremis. My proposalis that David did not sin by leaving
Israel, fleeing is not a sign of guilt (in most states).Did Joseph
not flee Potiphars wife? David was not forbidden to enter
Philistine territory,indeed such intelligence as he gathered would
serve him well in later years. His duty
#9
Puritanboard Junior
Eoghan
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was to survive Saul's wrath to succeed him, in so doing he was
prudent in seekingsanctuary with the one power which would not
extradite him.
We fail to remember that the Spirit of God was with David. What
this meant in practicewe might speculate on but it is a factor.
David wrote Psalms which are Messianic in theirpredictions. He was
prophetic!
Yes David gave way to fear and abandoned his plan of speaking up
for himself and thosewho were with him. At the moment when he was
seized his plan changed and in thatmoment he gave way to fear,
forsaking faith. I would suggest that all othercondemnation of
David is speculative with armchair quarterbacks piling on in a
scrum(UK rugby term, ruck in US?).
Give David a break! He wrote amazing Psalms at this point in his
life and was far from abacksliden wreck making shipwreck of his
faith as some, nay most, speculate.
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
09-11-2013, 01:27 PM
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As I have already argued, I think David is acting against the
revealed will of God, whichis one aspect of his sore trial. He must
be corrected before he is elevated. Whom theLord loves, he
chastens.
I also would argue that we have to take into account the
difference in the epochs, nowand then. We cannot map 1-to-1 all the
freedoms we enjoy now onto the Moses-law-bound Israelites laboring
under pedagogical discipline. Our relative "freedom ofmovement" is
not transferable to an Israelite like Elimelech, who takes his
family toMoab (all very reasonable, right? famine in Bethlehem and
all that), and loses both hislife and his inheritance. It takes a
literal resurrection-type miracle of life-from-the-dead
#10
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
Originally Posted by Eoghan
There is a freedom we are given to act without divine
revelation. This is the case todayas it has been in the past
(charismatics aside). The choices we make are not on thewhole
sinful missing God's perfect will. I take it as an established
principle that God is asmuch in charge of providence as He is of
the miraculous. By exercising ourselves inaccord with God's
revealed will we grow and demonstrate what motivates us.
-
8/3/2014 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
http://www.puritanboard.com/f40/1-samuel-21-god-sends-david-gath-80394/
10/16
to bring that inheritance back to life through the persons of
Ruth and Boaz. Anotherinstance of Providence overcoming human
failure. And it results in David's birtheventually.
To which, I have to add that there are even greater constraints
laid upon those whomGod has chosen to be special types, and are
public persons, who do not act only forthemselves but as
mediatorial agents in relation to God's people considered as
theChurch. These kinds of people (like David) are so far from
having radical freedom; butwe even recognize that today's
men-of-state and royals (and other celebrities) are"imprisoned" in
their powerful roles--which make their frequent "acting out" the
moregauche.
The silence of the text in regard to David's not inquiring of
the Lord respecting hismove, and the pains the text takes to tell
us that David only took counsel with his ownheart, are potent
indicators of the error of his choice, the weakness of his faith at
thistime. It is not that any of us owe David a break. He is for us
a beautiful example of thevicissitudes of our own temperamental
faith, and how God does not let someone likeDavid go, and in fact
sets him up on high.
Indeed, look at Ps.56! Consider how powerful that statement of
faith is, when (as Ibelieve, and have preached it thus) it comes
forth out of the whole context of the mini-exile into Philistia,
and the fearful prospect of the battle with Saul, and Ziklag.
Ps.56gives voice to the man who has suddenly been confronted with
the fact that he is (bywhatever course) brought into a place of
utter helplessness, from which he now realizeshe can only be helped
by the Greatest Power. So much the stronger, for it beinguttered by
David "in a far country" when he "came to himself" (Lk.15:17).
I am not offended if we disagree on this. Php.3:15, "...if in
anything you thinkotherwise, God will reveal that also to you," or
if needful to me.
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom
in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give usTo see ourselves as others
see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) Click to get: Board Rules
-- Signature Requirements-- Suggestions? -- Sermons
09-11-2013, 07:46 PM
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#11
They're stalling and plotting against me
py3ak
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1 Samuel 22:5 should settle the issue of whether David was
supposed to stay in theland or not.
Ruben: AdministratorF.P.C.Indianapolis
...diffidence is found the inseparable associate of
understanding. -Samuel Johnson
Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?
Teologa en Mexico The Howling Wilderness
09-11-2013, 11:02 PM
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Thanks, Ruben, I appreciate the reference. I had thought about
David's safe-keeping hisparents for a while in Moab, but did not go
back and read the passage.
I agree, the sense of the prophetic Word is that while David may
have a dispensation tohideaway his parents for a season among
distant relatives (still a functional exile), HEon the other hand
has no such authorization.
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
4:12
When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom
in mind:
Oh, that God the gift would give usTo see ourselves as others
see us. --Robert Burns, 1786 (modernized) Click to get: Board Rules
-- Signature Requirements-- Suggestions? -- Sermons
#12
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
09-12-2013, 03:05 AM
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#13
Puritanboard Junior
Eoghan
Originally Posted by py3ak
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It does ... ...in the context of chapter 22. It also implies
that David was "free" tochoose prior to that. When the prophet was
told to marry a prostitute (referenceneeded) from the marketplace
it countermanded his freedom to choose a wife prior tothat word of
God.
We are not Charismatics who do not get out of bed until we have
(claim) directrevelation from God. We have general principles and
the rest is up to us for the mostpart.
I somehow think that the land of Israel is like those dog
collars which are tied into aboundary wire. As someone approaches
the boundary they receive a mild electric shock.Not so. When David
settled his family in Moab that was "outside" Israel but he went
onto add it to Israel later.Now tell me was David disobedient in
visiting part of Israel-to-be?
There are many things where we are free to act until we receive
direct revelation -which is pretty infrequent these days. Ruth was
not Jewish, Nineveh was Persian(?) andMelchizedek was... ...well we
don't know; but he was not Jewish.
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
1 Samuel 22:5 should settle the issue of whether David was
supposed to stay in the landor not.
09-12-2013, 03:09 AM
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27
#14
Puritanboard Junior
Eoghan
Originally Posted by Eoghan
It puzzles me why David went to Gath. It is a crazy thing to do,
another Philistine cityperhaps but Gath? Carrying Goliath's sword?
Yet we learn that Ahimelech sought theLord for David from Doeg the
Edomite and from Ahimelech himself. Moreover Ahimelechhad sought
the Lord on David's behalf before.
What then was the answer? If we take the actions of David to be
in obedience to Godthen he was told to go to Gath. Once there
however he was seized rather than feted andfaith gave way to fear.
In that moment David switched from offering his services tofeigning
madness. This I think is where David "failed" - his faith could not
keep pace withGod's protection.
This all seems speculative and flies in the face of most
commentators: until we readchapter 27 when David returns to
Achish's court and is well received. Moreover in theprovidence of
God David is able to fight the Philistines and pass off the
captured booty asHebrew in origin.
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8/3/2014 1 Samuel 21 God sends David to Gath?
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emphasis added
Eoghanattending Wick Baptist ChurchScotland
specialist subject: Creationist Genetics (Bottleneck effect of
the Ark)interests: holiness (practical theology)member of Biblical
Creation Society (available as a guest speaker in the far north
ofScotland)
Can you refute me from the text? Not from the general consensus,
quotationsof the opinions of men or your personal opinion based on
1 and 2 Kings.
No the relevant scriptures here are chapter 21, Psalm 34(?) and
56(?) and ofcourse the New Testament references to the incident
09-12-2013, 08:58 AM
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I'm always glad to lend any small support to your own
stimulating reflections, Bruce.
Ruben: AdministratorF.P.C.Indianapolis
...diffidence is found the inseparable associate of
understanding. -Samuel Johnson
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#15
They're stalling and plotting against me
py3ak
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
Thanks, Ruben, I appreciate the reference. I had thought about
David's safe-keeping hisparents for a while in Moab, but did not go
back and read the passage.
I agree, the sense of the prophetic Word is that while David may
have a dispensation tohideaway his parents for a season among
distant relatives (still a functional exile), HE onthe other hand
has no such authorization.
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09-12-2013, 12:30 PM
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It isn't clear to me just what you're demanding. All the
discussion set forth so far iswholly reliant on Scripture. What
"opinions of men" have been introduced into thethread? You yourself
don't stick to ch.21 and Pss.34 & 56, but appeal to
1Sam.22(Ahimelech) & ch.27 (David's second excursion to Gath)
as validating your assessmentof David's whole series of moves that
leads him to Gath in ch.21. Why is it OK for you topass the bounds
you set, but not others? Scripture does not SAY that God
commandedDavid to go to Gath, but it's an important conclusion that
YOU have arrived at based onyour macro-assessment of many textual,
contextual, and broadly biblical factors.
You may be saying that you're willing to entertain some kind of
explicit statement fromwithin so many verses of the incident (a
narrow context-window), or from ONLY textsoutside it that YOU deem
relevant, that could overturn your interpretive conclusions.That's
your prerogative, but it also more-or-less indicates that you've
defined the issueso as to control (if you can) for possible
refutation. 1Sam.22 is quite arguably close-context to ch.21, those
divisions being human convention. The narrative is not a stringof
separate pearls.
I think you recognize that your read of David's actions runs
counter to one well-definedbody of interpretation (I don't even
know if I'll call it a "general consensus"). That's fine.I myself
have dared to challenge "received opinion" on numerous points and
passages."Let each be fully convinced in his own mind," Rom.14:5.
That's where you should leaveit. Then you wait, and see if others
see what you see in the text and support it,adopting your critique
of the inadequacies of other views.
It's poor form to ask for input, and then ignore--not silently,
but with petulantreassertion--or dismiss as acontextual, the
biblical argumentation given by the otherside; and worse, to accuse
those who disagree, and have argued to another end, ofabandoning
all fidelity to the text. To be biblically accurate is necessarily
to agree withyou?
In case you hadn't noticed, you have brought to an OT text your
own "interpretive
#16
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
Contra_Mundum
Originally Posted by Eoghan
emphasis added
Originally Posted by Eoghan
Can you refute me from the text? Not from the general
consensus,quotations of the opinions of men or your personal
opinion basedon 1 and 2 Kings.
No the relevant scriptures here are chapter 21, Psalm 34(?)
and56(?) and of course the New Testament references to
theincident
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maxim," namely that behaviors falling within acceptable norms
for NT believers (as youreckon it) are the standard for judging the
actions of OT characters. That'sdemonstrably false, in my
estimation, because OT behavior was not constrained merelyby
timeless universal morality, but also by significant positive
regulation peculiar to theOld Covenant era.
Then too, there is the selective nature of the holy-record.
These stories are notespecially exemplaristic, i.e. for describing
activity that is either moral or immoral,faithful or unfaithful
human action; as if they were Aesop's Fables, but for Jews
andChristians. Rather, the main purpose of the record is
Christological. Thus, I seek toevaluate David's moves, behaviors,
thoughts, and words throughout his career in termsof how well he
typifies Christ. And conversely, how his stumblings expose him as
stilljust an imperfect man (though God greatly exalted him) like
the rest of us, in need ofthe Son of David who should redeem both
him and all of us.
Peace.
Rev. Bruce G. BuchananChainOLakes Presbyterian Church,
CentralLake, MI
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the DestroyerActs 2:36 - 1
Cor. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - Hebrews 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - James
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