COMMISSIONERS PRESENT...Dr. Alan Edwards AYE Douglas Chesson AYE John (Jack) Randall AYE Michael Mann AYE Brad Turner AYE Chairman Drake continues, any opposed, like sign. Chairman

December 10, 2020

1

At a regular meeting of the Southampton County Planning Commission held in the auditorium at

Southampton High School, 23350 Southampton Parkway, Courtland, Virginia. December 10, 2020 at

7:30p.m.

COMMISSIONERS PRESENT

Michael Drake, Chairman (Newsoms District)

John (Jack) T. Randall, Vice-Chairman (Jerusalem District)

Dr. Alan Edwards (Governing Body Representative)

Douglas A. Chesson (Berlin-Ivor District)

Brad Turner (Franklin District)

J. Michael Mann (Boykins-Branchville District

COMMISSIONERS ABSENT

Keith Tennessee (Drewryville District)

Lynette Allston (At-Large)

Bill Day (Capron District)

OTHERS PRESENT

Beth Lewis, Director of Community Development (Secretary)

Shelia Baker, Administrative Assistant

OTHERS ABSENT

Richard E. Railey, Jr., County Attorney

At 7:30 p.m., Chairman Michael Drake starts the meeting and says, I’m going to ask if everyone will stand

as we recite the Pledge of Allegiance to our flag.

The Pledge of Allegiance is recited.

Chairman Drake says, I’m going to ask if everyone will remain standing and Commissioner Doug Chesson

will approach the podium and lead us in a brief invocation.

Commissioner Chesson leads the invocation.

Chairman Drake says, thank you Commissioner Chesson, everyone may be seated.

Chairman Drake says that under the circumstances, I appreciate the staff being here tonight to make

accommodations at the high school so we can distance ourselves from one another. He says we have a

pretty full agenda tonight but I think we will be able to move right through it. He says we will give

everybody a chance to speak if they would like to but just want to let you know that the decisions made

here tonight will go forward to the Board of Supervisors, our governing body, as a recommendation for or

against.

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Chairman Drake says this is a grass roots effort and now is the time to come forth, especially at these

public hearings and let your voice be heard. He says we are not going to rush, we will give you plenty of

time to speak and please be at ease that we are just regular people of the County and don’t be afraid to

come out and speak if you want to.

Chairman Drake says, that being said, I will call the meeting to order and we will start with the approval

of the minutes of our October meeting being that we did not meet in November because of the storm and

so many cancellations and I apologize for not letting Mrs. Lewis know earlier about the cancellation but

we thought the storm would pass early enough that we could be in attendance on that particular night.

He says it’s probably a good thing, Mrs. Lewis, but when I went home I had to take a detour, I could not

go my regular route to Franklin, I had to make a detour to get home so that was definitely the right call to

make. He says, I hope that was not an inconvenience to too many of you.

Chairman Drake says, back to the minutes of the October meeting, I hope everybody has the package.

Commissioner Randall says, I would like to make a motion to approve the minutes of the October meeting.

Chairman Drake says, I have a proper motion to approve the minutes as presented. Do I have a second?

Commissioner Chesson says, I’ll second.

Chairman Drake says, Mr. Chesson seconds. Is there any other discussion. [No response]. Being none,

I’ll call for the vote. All those in favor of approving the October minutes as presented, say aye.

Michael Drake AYE

Dr. Alan Edwards AYE

Douglas Chesson AYE

John (Jack) Randall AYE

Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE

Chairman Drake continues, any opposed, like sign. The minutes are approved unanimously.

Chairman Drake says also, I did not introduce Mr. Brad Turner, our newest Board member. He states, Mr.

Turner, thank you for being here tonight and I think he is excited about being part of this Board and we

appreciate him volunteering his time to come out. Chairman Drake states the he was sharing with me

earlier a little bit of his background, I think that he is a 20 year professional firefighter for Chesapeake,

lives in Sedley area and owns Southern Charm Garden Center in Franklin.

Chairman Drake says, Mr. Turner we certainly welcome you aboard and thank you for your service.

Commissioner Turner says thanks.

Chairman Drake says for our first public hearing, Mrs. Lewis, I will let you proceed with that please.

December 10, 2020

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Mrs. Lewis states just a reminder, when you want to talk, push the button on your microphone and the

green light will come on and when you are done talking, push it so it goes off. Mrs. Lewis says there are

more microphones than there are lines so some people are sharing.

Mrs. Lewis says also tonight Shelia Baker is with us, she came from Franklin with me, and she is the new

minute taker, now Nora (Atkins) doesn’t have to do both the Planning Commission and the Board of

Supervisors. Mrs. Lewis says that Shelia is the administrative assistant and permit tech in our office after

doing those jobs in Franklin for more than twenty years. And I’m very glad she came with us back home

to Southampton County.

Chairman Drake says, yes we are.

Mrs. Lewis says this first request is a zoning map amendment an application by Denise Wlodyka, owner,

for a zoning map amendment from A-1, Agriculture, to CRR, Conditional Rural Residential to create one

building lot on Unity Road, 1.033 acres out of a total parcel of 83.050 acres. She says it is a portion of Tax

Parcel 33-32 &33.

She says it is on the north side of Unity Road about 3500 feet east of its intersection with Ivor Road and

in the Capron Voting Magisterial Districts.

Mrs. Lewis says this is a typical zoning map amendment. The applicant has offered the typical proffer with

this request, it meets all the requirements of the ordinance, it’s in the agriculture, forestry, open-space

and rural residential plan designation and it does exactly what the ordinance requires it to do.

Mrs. Lewis says the sign was posted, the notices went out, the notices went out twice because this was

supposed to be heard last month and the ad was in the newspaper twice and she received no telephone

calls or inquiries at all. Mrs. Lewis says that Ms. Wlodyka is here if you have any questions.

Chairman Drake says Ms. Wlodyka, please come forward if you will ma’am.

Chairman Drake says, at this time, I will open the public hearing.

Chairman Drake says, Ms. Wlodyka, welcome tonight.

Ms. Wlodyka says thank you.

Chairman Drake says I think we have all had time to review the information so do y’all have any questions,

everybody knows where the location is at. He says if you are familiar with the fire tower, that’s the road,

right down from the fire tower.

Chairman Drake says, any questions?

Commissioner Randall says it looks like it meets the sliding scale and all the criteria has been met.

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Commissioner Chesson asks if they still have room for a couple more lots.

Mrs. Lewis says two more.

Chairman Drakes asks again, any questions for the applicant.

Ms. Wlodyka says thank you for considering it and I hope you will move forward and I appreciate it.

Commissioner Drake says thank you. He asks is there anyone else who wants to speak. He says if not, I

will close the hearing.

Commissioner Randall says I make a motion to approve.

Commissioner Edwards says, I’ll second that.

Chairman Drake says I have a motion and a proper second to approve the request or to make a favorable

recommendation to the Board for a request. He says, are we ready for the vote?

All those in favor, say aye.

Michael Drake AYE


Douglas Chesson AYE


Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE

Chairman Drake continues, any opposed, like sign.

Chairman Drake says the vote was unanimous and that will go forward to the Board for a favorable

recommendation.

He says, thank you.

Mrs. Lewis says the second request is by Adam Tuck, owner, for a zoning map amendment from A-1, to

CRR, Conditional Rural Residential District to create a building lot, the application includes approximately

4.0 acres out of the Tax Parcel 48-24C which 65.83 acres on the north side of Vicksville Road approximately

1700 feet east of its intersection with Mission Church Road, it’s in the Berlin-Ivor Voting and Magisterial

Districts.

She says that Mr. Tuck offered the typical proffer, which was sent to you in the e-mail today and a paper

copy at your place tonight. Mr. Tuck bought the original piece on the 66 acre piece of property and did

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an agricultural split and when you do an agricultural split you can’t build a house on it for ten years unless

you go through this process to create a building lot. So that is what Mr. Tuck is doing.

Mrs. Lewis says again the notice was in the newspaper and went out to abutting property owners and the

sign was posted and Mr. Tuck’s representative is here if you have any questions for him.

Commissioner Randall says in the comments, the conclusion is that it meets the sliding scale criteria so

it’s all procedurally sound.

Mrs. Lewis says that is correct.

Chairman Drake asks if we are ready to proceed with the hearing.

Chairman Drake says, I will open the public hearing. Would any one like to come forward and speak?

Mr. Tuck comes forward and says, my name is Steve Tuck and I am Adam’s father. He says that Adam

works for the Franklin Fire and Rescue as a paramedic and he is working tonight and he asked me if I would

come and represent him and I will be glad to answer any questions.

Chairman Drake says thank you very much. We welcome you here tonight. Asks are there any questions

for Mr. Tuck.

Commissioner Mann says that it looks like meets all the criteria to me.

Commissioner Drake says, any questions. No questions. He says thank you very much.

Chairman Drake says this is a public hearing, would anyone else like to come forward and speak on this

concern. No response.

Chairman Drake says, if not, I will close the public hearing.

Chairman Drake says, I’m ready for action or any other comments.

Commissioner Edwards says I recommend we go forward with a favorable recommendation.

Commissioner Chesson says I second.

Chairman Drake says I have a motion to make a favorable recommendation for the request and I have a

proper second. Chairman Drake says is there any other discussion or any other comments. He says, if

not, we will proceed with the voting.

Chairman Drake says, all in favor of making this a favorable recommendation to the Board of Supervisors

say aye.

December 10, 2020

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Michael Drake AYE


Douglas Chesson AYE


Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE


Chairman Drake says the vote was unanimous.

He says, thank you and yields to Mrs. Lewis for the next application.

Mrs. Lewis says all these requests this evening will go to the Board of Supervisors typically at their January

meeting.

Mrs. Lewis says the third request is a request by Charles and Debi Darden, applicants, on behalf of Charles,

Debi and Michael Darden, owners, for a Conditional Use Permit to operate an event venue. She says this

is the first request since the ordinance was amended a couple years ago to permit event venues with a

Conditional Use Permit. She says this is a portion of Tax Parcel 106-19D, which totals 27.53 acres, this is

approximately 5 acres of that, it’s on the east side of Smith’s Ferry Road approximately 2300 feet south

of its intersection with Schoolhouse Road and it’s in the Franklin Magisterial District and the Newsoms

Voting District.

She says you have a very thorough application by the Dardens, they have included their business plan and

photographs and a narrative, they have provided a letter from the largest abutting property owner which

is Southampton Meadows a manufactured home park. She says they are in favor of this and they also

submitted an application with thirty some petitioners in favor of it and the Dardens and some of their

neighbors are here to speak tonight. She says again the sign was posted, the notices were mailed and the

ad was in the newspaper and I received no telephone calls. She says this is a very thorough application,

they have laid out what their responsibilities are and what the renter’s responsibilities are and oftentimes

when you have a special event, and it’s not at an event venue you need to get a permit each time. But

when you are an event venue, of course you don’t have to because that’s what your purpose is but tents

of 900 sq. ft. or larger by the Uniform Statewide Building Code will need a permit each time so if there is

a tent and the tent is larger than 900 sq. ft., somebody (and they layout that it will be the people who are

using the property) will come to our office and get a building permit and the inspectors will do an

inspection to make sure that it is anchored sufficiently, it’s not going to take off like a sail in a windstorm.

She said they have laid out very clearly who is responsible for what and they live there and somebody

from their family will be at each event from beginning to end. They will have no overnight stays at all,

maybe two day events where some of the facilities are left up overnight but they have no plans for anyone

to stay overnight ever. She says they are here if you have any questions.

Commissioner Randall says, I’ve got one procedural question Mrs. Lewis. Why was the condition put in

April thru October?

December 10, 2020

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Mrs. Lewis says that was their condition that they offered, perhaps they can answer more fully than I can.

Commissioner Randall says ok, I was just wondering if you had any insight.

Chairman Drake says, are there any other questions before we proceed.

Chairman Drake says, if not, I will open the public hearing and I’m going to ask if one or both of the Dardens

to come forth just in case if you have any questions.

He says I agree, what a thorough application and then the story that goes behind it, what they are planning

on doing, I was really impressed with the leg work that was involved to contact the neighbor and make

sure everybody was on board. He says, anyway I think you all did a good job with the prep work. He says

so first, thank you all for being here tonight and asks the Commission if they have questions.

Commissioner Randall says we had a similar application before we amended the ordinance and I guess

I’m the one here who got married the most recently and I had to go to Sussex to Clay Hill Gardens so I’ll

start off with that I’m the biggest advocate because we have nothing in this area that can compete with

Isle of Wight, Smithfield, Clay Hill Gardens which is a beautiful, beautiful place and we had a great event

there almost two years ago. He says as a similar business owner, I guess I have a concern about why

would you restrict yourself, basically the reason why I’m asking the question is because for an income,

you need to promote business more than restrict business. He says I’m big government and we need

reasonable restraints but not overly burdensome restraints, we need to promote as much business as

possible, especially with our current economic conditions. So is that a restriction that you have to have

or can we remove that so we don’t eliminate some economic opportunities for you because during that

period, someone may want to get married at this venue.

Mrs. Debi Darden states the events will be under a tent or out in the open, whatever someone chooses

to do. She says we felt that the winter months might be a little bit prohibitive to have that.

Commissioner Randall says but you could have an event during those months.

Mrs. Darden says absolutely.

Commissioner Randall says my point is removing that restriction would be beneficial, or possibly

beneficial, right.

Mrs. Darden says absolutely. She says we have talked about putting a fire pit on the property.

Commissioner Randall says if those are removed then that’s something you would consider during those

months, you would invest in that.

Mrs. Darden says absolutely.

December 10, 2020

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Commissioner Edwards says If we change the proffers, don’t we have to re-advertise again and come

back?

Mrs. Lewis says no.

Chairman Drake says no, we can just strike it.

Commissioner Edwards says I’m not so sure about that.

Chairman Darden says I’m positive.

Commissioner Edwards says since this is what was advertised in the paper.

Mrs. Lewis says the specific conditions were not advertised.

Mrs. Darden asked if that specific time frame was in the paper.

Mrs. Lewis says no.

Mrs. Darden says that was the reason for that because we felt like it wouldn’t be something that would

be utilized as much during those winter months but absolutely we would be willing to do what we need

to do if someone was interested in doing that.

Chairman Drake says, thank you for asking that question.

Mr. Charles Darden says I guess the other thing would be as we are just getting started, we want to add

restrooms down the road, a picnic pavilion, a gazebo, things like that, we figured the winter time would

be the ideal time to be tearing up ground for a septic system and putting in restrooms so that we can re-

sod or re-grass it and get ready for the spring; however, we could work around it.

Commissioner Randall says I guess my point is this, as a local business owner, the more events that you

have, the more income will be produced. He says both of you are willing to re-invest that income back

into the facility. He says that’s what jumps out at me from your application. He says, is that the case.

Mrs. Darden says yes.

Commissioner Randall says thank you.

Commissioner Edwards says If they decide to do it year round all they would have to do is just come back

to this group.

Commissioner Mann says can we do it tonight.

Mrs. Lewis says yes, we can strike that condition.

December 10, 2020

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Chairman Drake says can we vote, just striking that opening date and closing date, can we strike that from

the application.

Commissioner Randall says just like we can add a condition, which we do all the time, we’ve got to be

intellectually intuitive.

Chairman Drake says if they are willing, I think we should do it tonight.

Mrs. Lewis says if they agree to it, then yes.

Mrs. Darden says so my understanding is that it would just be an outdoor event period with no limitations

on it.

Chairman Drake says that is correct, you are just doing away with the opening date and the closing date,

it will be available year round.

Mr. Darden says but we will still be restricted to the number of events we can put in for or would that

need to be changed also.

Mrs. Lewis says that would change certainly the scope of the events so if you change to thirty events a

year that is certainly different than the information that was provided before.

Mrs. Darden says this is not a venue for having only weddings, we are considering lots of other types of

events such as birthday parties or whatever someone might want to do so some events are going to be

larger than others. She says we are restricting the number of people to two fifty because we feel that is

a comfortable number of bodies as well as associated vehicles to be on the property.

We personally are restricting ourselves to a large event like every other weekend to give us time to

prepare the grounds again and clean up after the previous event; however, those in-between weekends

we are hoping to have smaller events which would not require as much servicing work to be done in prep

for the next event. So yes if we were to be year round potentially there would be considerably more

events than that but I don’t know how to put a number on that.

Chairman Drake says, so Mrs. Lewis, I want to ask you and I hope you will know, if they want to change

the number is that something else that would have to come back later.

Mrs. Lewis says yes.

Chairman Drake says we could change, we could have a year round venue open instead of doing the

restrictive opening and closing.

December 10, 2020

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Mrs. Lewis says that is not a substantial change to change from eight months of the year to twelve months

of the year. She says to change from fifteen to eighteen events a year to forty events a year is a substantial

change.

Chairman Drake says so Mr. and Mrs. Darden would you like to proceed with the request tonight, we can

change tonight about being open year round, do you want to come back and modify the number of events

per year and he asks Mrs. Lewis what that would involve to modify.

Mrs. Lewis says the same process all over again and the application fee as well. She says you could do

that two years from now or five years from now.

Mrs. Darden says with this being a new venue, I would love to think that it will be so big that it will

accommodate everyone but I’m also being realistic, I know that it takes a little time to grow that so I’m

thinking that for the first year at least if not even we will probably be held to that number that we said

and then as we go forward and we see that there is a demand and interest in expanding and it looks like

we will be having more events, then we could come back.

Mrs. Lewis says by that time you may have permanent restroom facilities and so forth.

Chairman Drake says that I think what Mr. Randall is trying to convey is don’t put restrictions on yourself

if it’s not necessary. He says that’s what we normally do put restrictions on, but in this case, we would

like you to leave that one.

Mrs. Darden says I think we were approaching you with that kind of mindset that you might say that’s too

much but we are perfectly open to suggestions.

Chairman Drake says from what I perceive from what I read, you are going to open with a children’s event

and kind of close it with a children’s event, I know where you are coming from and like I said, if you want

to take that restriction off to be open year round, I think we can do that tonight.

Mrs. Darden says then we might be changing that, we might not have a quote opening and closing event,

actually we are considering maybe even expanding the children’s events to four a year so we will kind of

just spread them out throughout the year and not have them opening and closing.

Chairman Drake asks if there are any other questions.

Commissioner Chesson says yes. He says regarding the change that you are proposing on the condition,

you have obviously done some good work with your neighbors sharing with them what you plan to do, in

that sharing with the neighbors did you emphasize much or did you hear any concerns (obviously your job

is to try to sell it to get it approved) when you were communicating with your neighbors to get a favorable

response, did you have any concerns expressed to you about the twelve month event or eight month

event or the event venue.

December 10, 2020

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Mrs. Darden says she is going to let Mr. Darden address that since he is the one who went out and talked

to people and just to bring you update, we have forty-eight signatures on our petition.

Mr. Darden says after I sent Mrs. Lewis a copy of the petition I went through and talked to the trailer park

residents because East Thomas Street is right in the line of fire, approximately400 yards from where we

would have the dj or stage or whatever. He says everybody was totally in favor, I had nobody say anything,

they thought it was a great idea and were 100% behind it, even the trailer park residents said that at the

event that we had for a friend they didn’t even hear the music and it was a live band and they didn’t even

hear the music unless they stepped outside.

Chairman Drake says just to follow-up on Mr. Chesson’s concern, if it was a year round venue, you don’t

think your neighbors would have any problem, is that correct.

Mr. Darden says I actually did not totally address a specific date or specific time frame.

Chairman Drake says I think that suffices. Asks are there any other questions.

Chairman Drake says no more questions. Says thank you Mr. and Mrs. Darden, thank you for coming

tonight.

Chairman Drake says would anyone else like to come forward please.

Mrs. Lorraine Whitehead comes forward and says, good evening Southampton County Planning

Commission and Chairman Drake, I’m Lorraine Green Whitehead and I’ve been with Southampton County

Public Schools for forty-four years, full-time for thirty-nine. I continue to serve as part-time Title 1 Pre-K

Specialist and Community Liaison. I am also the Executive Director for Smart Beginnings Western

Tidewater. She says I am here tonight in support of Charles Darden’s proposed event project located on

the property adjacent to Southampton Meadows. While I don’t own property, nor live in the vicinity, the

area is of great interest to me and is close to my heart. She says, my first visit to Southampton Meadows

was 15 years ago when I began working with Southampton County Schools Preschool Programs. I would

go out there when the parents didn’t return the forms/signature sheets needed to enroll their child in

Pre-K. She says on my first visit, my secretary, Mary Hill, made me stay in the car. She says as time went

by, I continued to go out there whenever I needed to coordinate services for our families. I found it very

beneficial for our families to work with Barbara and Mack, the management. She says, I have been in

trailers out there that are hard to believe people live in, some with no electricity, no kitchen, no inside

walls only the metal, children with only the clothes on their back having just relocated out there after a

bullet came through their child’s window at their previous residence.

She says, working with the Western Tidewater Early Childhood Collaboration and Celebration Church,

gotten clothes from the Clothes Closet in Franklin, have the Food Bank distributing there, the STOP

program through a grant and in collaboration with the WTCSB, Celebration Church and the Wellness

Coalition, now has a portable medical unit to monitor health issues including Opioid recovery there and

ENVIVA has worked with us several times to provide turkeys, shoes for back to school and this year are

sponsoring Christmas in the Meadows (last year the county youth fund provided coats and Christmas

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stockings). She stated Sheriff Wyche has always worked with us to be a presence out there to promote a

positive relationship with the children.

She says when someone hears of me going into the Meadows, I am frequently asked with tones of

disbelief, “You go into the Meadows”? Aren’t you scared” or even “Are you crazy”. She says, my answer

is “my children live out there, I certainly go and I’m not going alone, but I do follow the Sheriff’s

Department’s advice and I don’t go out there at night.

She says, I support this project for two reasons, (1) there is critical need of change to the area, and change

that makes a difference, this project would help promote the beginning of a positive change in perception

of the area. (2) the most important reason that I support this project is because the Dardens are proposing

to provide a minimum of two events and probably two more for the children at Southampton Meadows.

She says we will work together with the coalition members to provide additional resources to this under-

resourced area of Southampton County. She says what I am asking for is a better life for our children in

the Meadows and I believe that this project is another step in that direction.

Chairman Drake says would anyone else like to come forward.

Peggy Darden comes forward and says, Good evening everyone. I’m Peggy Darden and if you have looked

at the pictures of the venue, my house is closest to the venue and I am here tonight to make sure that

everyone understands that I am for this 100%. She says I will be assisting Debi and Charles anyway that I

can and we have needed something like this for such a long time and having seen how the wedding turned

out at this particular piece of land, it was absolutely stunning and I just want to let everyone know I am

all for it. She says I think it is absolutely wonderful and we pray that we can move forward with it.

Chairman Drake says thank you and is there anyone else, if not, we will close the hearing.

Chairman Drake says I’m going to ask my fellow Commission members what’s their pleasure or are there

any other comments.

Commissioner Edwards says I have one question. He asks, did we change number 3 or not, which is events

take place April through October.

Chairman Drake says, we did change that to year round.

Commissioner Edwards says, I just want to be sure.

Chairman Drake says are there any other comments.

There being none, Commissioner Randall says, I make a motion that we approve the application, striking

section 3 that the events will take place April through October each year to give them the discretion to

have events anytime during the year.

Commissioner Edwards says second.

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Chairman Drake says we have a proper motion and a second for the request with the change mentioned,

he ask is there any other discussion before we vote. He says, if not, I’ll call for the vote. He says, all those

in favor, say aye

Michael Drake AYE


Douglas Chesson AYE


Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE


Chairman Drake says the vote is unanimous and that will go forward at the January meeting to the Board

of Supervisors as a favorable recommendation.

Chairman Drake says thank you all and thank you for coming tonight.

Mrs. Darden says, I hope we bring lots of revenue to Southampton County.

Chairman Drake says, yes, thank you. He says we look forward to you all opening and wish you the best

of luck and we hope it turns out good for you.

Chairman Drake says next we are down to item D which is a request initiated by the Board of Supervisors

about the road name change.

Chairman Drake says, Mrs. Lewis if you would like to proceed please.

Mrs. Lewis says that is correct. She says this is a request initiated by the Board of Supervisors of

Southampton County to change the name of BlackHead Sign Post Road, the aforementioned road way is

situated between Virginia Primary Route 35 which is Meherrin Road and Virginia Secondary Route 673,

Grays Shop Road and is located in the Boykins-Branchville Electoral voting district.

She says recommendations for a new name will be received this evening as well. She says this was

scheduled for last month’s public hearing, the one that got rained out, so it got forwarded to this month.

She says, I have received a total of eleven emails between the two months, you have all of them and you

have the summary. She says there were ten in favor of and one opposed to the change. She says the

suggested names are: one for Big Pumpkin Road, one suggested name was Millpond Road which is

apparently the historical name of the road and six suggestions were for Alfred Road. She says you have

copies of all the letters, they will be made part of the minutes, I asked Attorney Railey if they all had to be

read into the minutes and he said no but they will be attached to the minutes and nine of the eleven were

attached to your agenda that was on line because I received them in time. She says, I’m sure there are

people here to speak this evening but that’s all the information that I have. She says, thank you.

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Chairman Drake says thank you. He asks are there any other comments before we proceed with the

hearing. He says, if not, I will open the public hearing, if anyone would like to come forward to address

the road name change in the Newsoms area. Please come forward.

Mrs. Lewis says, Mr. Drake if you will remind people to state their name and address for the record.

Michelle Covington comes forward.

Chairman Drake states thank you being here, if you will state your name for the record.

Ms. Covington says thank you for having me. She says my name is Michelle Covington and I am a member

of Citizens for Change and I reside at 18199 Crosskeys Road in Boykins Virginia. Mrs. Covington read a

prepared statement which will be made part of the minutes.

At the end of the presentation, Chairman Drake says thank you and asks are there any questions. He says,

what a history lesson. Thank you very much.

Mrs. Lewis says Ms. Baker is the appropriate person to leave your notes with that will be very helpful.

Thank you.

Chairman Drake ask would anyone else like to come forward, the public hearing is still open.

Mr. Travis Parker comes forward and says, Good evening, my name is Travis Parker and I live at 120

Rawlsdale Road, Franklin Virginia and I am a member of Citizens for Change and prior to being raised in

Southampton County. He says this process has been long but I am proud to have been a part of it, of the

changing of Blackhead Sign Post Road and I am proud of our governing body throughout this process that

I’ve heard everyone, even though we may have had some disagreements with the ordinance, everybody

(from what I heard) was in agreement that this road name needed to be changed. He says that since we

are past the part of the ordinance, there was some disagreement but we are on the other side of that I

feel that we are all in favor that the name needs to change. He says, I stand here this evening to let you

know that I am in agreement with the name of the road becoming Alfred Road. He says along with Ms.

Covington and the many e-mails that you have received. He says I truly believe that the Alfred Road,

based on what you have just heard, Ms. Covington has given some good reasons why you this name should

be changed to Alfred Road. He says, with that said, thank you for being a part of the process and for us

to be able to right this wrong and I just ask you to recommend to the Board of Supervisors to change the

name of Blackhead Signpost Road to Alfred Road.

He says, thank you, any questions.

Chairman Drake says thank you Mr. Parker and asks is there any questions for Mr. Parker.

Commissioner Randall says I’ve got one question. He says, in our packet (and I don’t know if you have

this) but we have an e-mail from a Billy Cole. He says that he was involved in the first go round,

December 10, 2020

15

(Commissioner Randall said there is information on the back of the page provided by Mrs. Lewis) he

headed the road naming committee, I guess, back in 1988. He asks, do you have any information or

knowledge about the road naming committee that Mr. Cole headed.

Mr. Parker says no I don’t have any information about what went on prior.

Commissioner Randall says his historical was very similar to your presentation, the gentleman named

Alfred, his historical perspective was spot on to what you asked us to do. He says, I was just wondering if

he was a part of the research or we could kind of expand on his email.

Mr. Parker says I would like to ask Ms. Covington does that rings a bell with her, Ms. Covington did a lot

of our research.

Ms. Covington asks what the name was again.

Chairman Drake says his name is Billy Cole and he is identifying himself as the person who headed the

road naming committee and this occurred on or about 1988, that time frame.

Ms. Covington says I don’t have any information about Mr. Cole but if you have contact information for

him, I would love to talk with him but no I don’t have any. She says you are saying that he is saying the

same thing that we were saying.

Commissioner Randall says yes, he was giving kind of the historical, he wrote a letter to our county

administrator basically recommending the name change and I’m sure Mrs. Lewis can give you a copy of

this information and giving his name as Alfred and the name change. He says, it seems from the email, I

don’t want to speculate too much, that he was the head of some committee on the behalf of County to

rename roads and I don’t know procedural history behind that because it was so long ago, 1988, I wasn’t

a member of the Planning Commission. He says we can probably request that from Mr. Johnson but I was

just wondering if he was part.

Mr. Chesson says that committee meet in 1987.

Ms. Covington says yes I am aware that there was a committee that named roads because they used to

all be numbers but I was born in 1983 so I don’t know what that process looks like but if there is a way to

get in touch with someone who is a part of that process period, I would love to hear their opinion and talk

to them.

Chairman Drake says thank you.

Ms. Covington says thank you.

Chairman Drake says are there any questions for Mr. Parker?

There being no, Chairman Drake says thank you both for coming.

December 10, 2020

16

Mrs. Lewis says I requested and received a list of all the road names in Southampton County from GIS to

make sure that any names that were recommended weren’t already in use or almost like that. She says

there is no name like that and there is no name that is near Alfred Road, it goes from Agri Park Drive to

Alley Street. She says we have a Cabin Pond and a Cabin Point and those are at different ends of the

County but very similar names. So there isn’t anything near Alfred Road.

Chairman Drake says anyone else like to come forward, the public hearing is still open. He says, if not I

am going to close the public hearing and open the panel up for discussion.

Commissioner Randall says I would like to ask Dr. Edwards a question because this is the first one we have

had, so is the Board asking for a recommendation of whether or not for a name change number one and

then a possible change.


Commissioner Edwards says the Board is asked for a change.

Commissioner Randall says because the agenda, it’s kind of ambiguous.

Mrs. Lewis says from their minutes, they are asking for two recommendations, one whether or not to

change the name and then Mr. Johnson told me a list of three to five possible names would be all that

they would need, they don’t want you to come up with twenty names, but yes or no to change the name

and three to five or however, a handful of possible names.

Commissioner Randall says I think from a historical perspective, for me it’s a pretty easy choice. He says

it seems that the concern is that the historical context, it was a slave named Alfred, I don’t think that’s

disputed by anyone and I think that is the best evidence that’s come forth. He says I spoke with Rick

Francis about it and he’s the Turner Rebellions’ expert but I think all indicia and evidence points to that so

that would be my recommendation, that we approve the name change and recommend to the Board of

Supervisors that we change the name to Alfred Road.

Commissioner Chesson says, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Drake acknowledges Commissioner Chesson.

Commissioner Chesson says I guess I will repeat what I have shared in an email, I would recommend

looking in a different direction other than a person’s name. He says reason being is that today we see

Alfred as somebody that fought for a good cause and laid down his life, five years from now there might

be another group of people that come along saying, what was the Board of Supervisors thinking to name

this to keep us reminded of these horrible things that happened or it may come up that Alfred was a sinner

and he had 5000 great victories but one sin and we can’t have a road named after this man anymore. He

says my personal opinion is I would not be in favor of naming a road after a person and I would encourage

the Planning Commission to look to a different road name, like Barrow Road (it continues on across Route

December 10, 2020

17

35), I see that as appropriate or Millpond Road, I see that as appropriate; not after a man’s name because

the winds of change, five years from now we will probably be looking at this name change again and I just

think we need to avoid those awkward situations.

Chairman Drake says thank you for your comments, any other comments.

Commissioner Turner says yes.

Chairman Drake recognizes Mr. Turner

Commissioner Turner says I agree with everyone here, I think the road name needs to change one way or

the other so the answer to question one would be yes. He says the Board of Supervisors is looking for

let’s say a group of three names. He says Mrs. Lewis was saying Mr. Johnson was looking for.

Commissioner Edwards says changing the name is moot, that’s gone.

Commissioner Turner says yes, he says do we want to give three options to the Board of Supervisors like

Alfred Road, Millpond Road and continue Barrow Road or do we need to narrow it down to just one.

Commissioner Randall says I think we can do either, the Board is going to have all the information and

probably more.

Mrs. Lewis says they will hold a public hearing as well.

Commissioner Drake says so Mrs. Lewis, looking for direction, do you think we need to give a series of

names; would that be proper for us tonight.

Mrs. Lewis says that’s what Mr. Johnson asked.

Chairman Drake says so we are not trying to limit it to one.

Mrs. Lewis says you need two motions, change name yes or no and the second motion with name

recommendations.

Chairman Drake says, Mr. Mann I haven’t heard from you. What do you think about changing the name

of the road? He says do you have a comment.

Commissioner Mann says yes, I do, I was being polite letting Mrs. Lewis finish up. He says I would like to

ask a question, I see on the summary, you’ve got Billy Cole against that, and I’m reading his letter and I

guess I didn’t see his letter before I got here tonight and I’m trying to figure out if he is against renaming

is that what I’m gathering.

Mrs. Lewis says from my reading of the letter, he is against renaming the road because he feels it is doing

away with history that needs to be remembered.

December 10, 2020

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Commissioner Mann says that’s what I gathered, so he is against renaming it to Alfred, he wants to leave

it like it is. He says, I understand he is a big history buff.

Mrs. Lewis says her reading of it was he thinks that the historical name of Blackhead Sign Post Road honors

what happened and changing the name would sanitize and not make that history.

Commissioner Mann says I agree that we need to change the name, he said I think I voted against the last

time we were trying to do it but I wasn’t voting against the name change, I agree with changing the name,

I wanted to keep it generic. He says the history of the county is the history of the county, good, bad, ugly,

whatever but I find that there are a lot of things that people find offensive and there was one suggestion

to just put the road number back on the road sign 658 but I would rather send the Board three names and

not just funnel it down to one.

Chairman Drake says it seems like there is a consensus on the Board that we need to change the name of

the road, correct?

Commissioner Randall says I make a motion that we change the name of the road.

Chairman Drake says I have a motion that we change the name of the road, do I have a second.

Commissioner Mann say second.

Commissioner Edwards says were have already decided that, we don’t have to vote on that, that’s been

decided by the Board.

Mrs. Lewis says no.

Chairman Drake says the decision that was made was to how the procedure would be with a changed

road.

Mrs. Lewis says the ordinance that was adopted permitted the Board of Supervisors to initiate this request

but the request still had to come to this body to change the name and the second, what it should change

to.

Chairman Drake asks Commissioner Edwards if that answers his question.

Commissioner Edwards says not really, he says the fact that we have to change it, there is no argument

about that but I think what the Board wants from the Planning Commission is a name or a list of names

and so when we have our public hearing we could vote on the other two.

Chairman Drake says we have a motion and a second to that motion so I guess we are going to carry it

forward if there are no objections. He says, is there any other discussion.

December 10, 2020

19

Chairman Drake calls for the vote to change the name of the road.

He says, all those in favor, say aye

Michael Drake AYE


Douglas Chesson AYE


Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE


He says it is a unanimous vote to change the name. He says, I have heard two or three suggestions is

there any discussion.

Commissioner Mann says I have a question. Since you made this summary sheet, Mrs. Lewis, how many

of these people that made a suggestion or have written in actually live on that road.

Mrs. Lewis says I believe Ms. Adkins lives on the road who suggested Big Pumpkin Road,

Chairman Drake says Mrs. Brandi Barnes lives on the road.

Commissioner Mann says doesn’t Joseph Drake live on the road.

Chairman Drake says yes he does.

Mrs. Lewis says Ms. Toya Bynum says she is from Southampton County but she doesn’t say that she lives

on the road and Anna Carter grew up in Newsoms and maintains a home there but she doesn’t indicate

that she lives on the road but Mr. Joseph Drake lives on the road, Ms. Glass does not live on the road and

Sarah Poole does not live on the road and Mr. Sunday does not and Ms. Triplett lives in Courtland.

Commissioner Mann says Billy Cole does not live on the road.

Mrs. Lewis says no.

Chairman Drake says but Mrs. Barnes.

Mrs. Barnes, Mr. Drake, Ms. Adkins all live on the road.

Chairman Drake says does that answer your question Commissioner Mann?

Commissioner Randall so we have no name, just the route number, Alfred Road which seems to be the

consensus at least on the chart, Big Pumpkin Road had one recommendation and then Millpond Road.

December 10, 2020

20

Commissioner Edwards says that I heard before the road was changed, it was Millpond Road was the

official name of the road.

Commissioner Mann says and Barrow, which is the crossroad.

Chairman Drake says living in Newsoms, being a resident, that resident has typically been referred to as

Millpond Road

Commissioner Mann says yes, I can verify that.

Chairman Drakes says we have four suggestions for the Board of Supervisors, is there any more from this

Board.

Commissioner Mann says actually have five, the one mentioned about Barrow Road extending across.

Mrs. Lewis says so what are the suggestions, Alfred Road, Millpond Road, Barrow Road and the road

number 658.

Chairman Drake says can you do that, he says the road names were before the 9-1-1, that was the reason

the roads were named, because of the 9-1-1 emergency system back in 1987. He says, I think that’s why

we are trying to do away with the road numbers and come up with a name.

Commissioner Mann says I’m just saying somebody mentioned it, do the number and write it out, six

hundred and fifty-eight to keep it generic, the point was that if we get in to setting a precedence, we get

into changing road names in the future, you can just write out the road number and move on, every time.

He says, that was there suggestion, just use the road number and write it out.

Mrs. Lewis says, so that’s four.

Chairman Drake says do we need to vote on that.

Commissioner Randall says I make the motion to recommend the names of Alfred Road, Millpond Road,

says he doesn’t see any reason to consider Barrow Road since it is confusing and will confuse our EMS,

and quite frankly, I don’t have a very good third name so I’ll just go with Big Pumpkin Road because that

was recommended by someone who lives on the road.

He says, so I’ve already expressed how I think you should have it but I’m not going to make that part of

my motion.

Chairman Drake says we have a motion on the floor for Alfred Road, Big Pumpkin Road, and Millpond

Road, that’s the motion. He says, do I hear a second.

Commissioner Edwards says second.

December 10, 2020

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Chairman Drake says, I have a second to the motion. He says is there any other discussion or comments,

if not, I’m going to ask for the vote.

He says, all those in favor of this recommendation, say aye

Michael Drake AYE



Michael Mann AYE

Brad Turner AYE

Chairman Drake says any opposed.

Commissioner Chesson says Aye.

Chairman Drake says we have one opposed, so it carries as a recommendation to the Board at the January

meeting.

Commissioner Chesson says Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Drake recognizes Mr. Chesson.

Commissioner Chesson says please let it be noted that I didn’t vote for the change of the road name.

Chairman Drake says certainly and I understand exactly where your mindset is.

Chairman Drake says we will now go to Item 4, unfinished business, discussion of review of 2015

Comprehensive Plan per GS 15-2-2230. Discussion.

Chairman Drake says we will start with our Comprehensive Plan Update on the Agriculture chapter. He

says you know we talked about this last month and we have to continue on with the update of the

Comprehensive Plan and I know Mrs. Lewis and her comment in our package, there are several questions,

I hope you are have given some thought to those questions. He says I know it is a lot of blanks to fill in so

is there any comments as we proceed with updating the agricultural chapter, anything need changing. He

says there are a lot of reasons listed on the front page, is there anything in particular that stands out that

we need to address or changing some statistical figures and re-issuing a new Comp Plan. He says is there

any comments.

Chairman Drake says Commissioner Mann you may be able to allude to this, in some respects you might

see the number of farms decrease, I know I would say that a lot of youth are coming back to the farm and

that is very exciting for us old timers that family members and non-families of the children are coming

back looking for a career in farming and agriculture. He says that is pretty exciting because I know it’s

been several cycles of times when agriculture didn’t seem to be that exciting but I think with technological

advances, the market growing especially the export market with the container and the ships coming, it’s

December 10, 2020

22

making more demand, especially for soybeans but I know for some of the truck type farming, vegetable

growing, I think we will see more of that. He says, I do think that we do need to give our attention to this

chapter to encourage agriculture in the county, other than that, any other comments.

Chairman Drake says anything you want to add or change other than things coming out of the substance.

Chairman Drake says Mrs. Lewis do you want to elaborate on that further, address any concerns that you

have. He says I thought you did a good job on the questions you provided for us, is there anything specific

other than just re-writing.

Mrs. Lewis says no and says she has put together a draft of an energy chapter which we would have to

decide exactly where it goes, whether it would be part of the agriculture where it doesn’t really fit,

perhaps the economic development chapter or the land use chapter but it is a part of the plan that I will

send out to you that specifically addresses renewable energy generation.

Chairman Drake says in the comments that she is relating to, I think that would be huge. It says re-newable

energy, it’s making so much of the headlines today and I’m sure everybody is reading about it and keeping

up with the expected target dates to relinquish some of the fossil fuel, he says that is the administration

we have now, ten years from now, that might change and there will be more emphasis put on it in those

and the target date may happen a little quicker than expected. He says I agree, I think the energy

expansion, the renewal probably needs to come under its own heading that would be very helpful. He

says, I know I said before there is a certain contrast between when you go back to land use, I don’t see

where the re-newable energy and the agriculture needs to be in the same chapter, I think it should be

separated and then we can deal with it in separate ways. He says, I think that would be more helpful,

that’s just my opinion, from my perspective, that’s the direction to proceed.

Chairman Drake says, any other comments so far as the agriculture chapter, then we will look at a

renewable energy system chapter, which will be something new to us.

Chairman Drake says any other comments. He says, if not, the Supervisors has asked us to of course,

review the solar ordinance. He says, Mrs. Lewis, again you did a good job of bringing out some of the

comments we have had in the October meeting so far as the concerns of the development of the solar.

He says I know it was like you had gone over the ordinance and some you had highlighted, some you had

darkened, some of the wording had been changed. He says I know we had talked about not infringing to

close on municipalities, the townships of the county, we did not list Franklin, he said that was one of the

concerns.

Mrs. Lewis says right, the changes that the Planning Commission mentioned were distance from

incorporated towns and my question was do you to include not just the incorporated towns in

Southampton County but Franklin and I couldn’t tell you how far the City of Emporia is from its nearest

point to Southampton County so I don’t know if you want to include all incorporated places or just the six

incorporated towns of Southampton County. She also says I don’t know if there may be incorporated

places over the border in North Carolina that are closer.

December 10, 2020

23

Commissioner Mann says I think Severn.

Commissioner Drake says it that a mile from you.

Commissioner Mann says I think it’s within a mile if I’m not mistaken.

Mrs. Lewis says so do you want to say all incorporated places.

Commissioner Mann says if I’m looking at this right, you did not include Franklin on this, is that right.

Mrs. Lewis says no, I only included the six incorporated towns.

Commissioner Mann says don’t you feel like we need to include Franklin?

Chairman Drake says if you do Franklin, would you do the other localities as well or just pick and choose.

He says when I think about Franklin, is what we are seeing developed around the city border, that’s where

some of our industrial development and residential as well is happening so to me it kind of stands to

reason but that’s just my thought.

Commissioner Chesson says I personally feel that a mile is a little bit far.

Chairman Drake says are there any other comments, I know we were challenged with this early in the year

Mrs. Lewis says back in the old days before the pandemic, in January.

Chairman Drake says it’s almost been a year, they are looking at some of the concerns we had along the

way, and do we want them to take action?

Mrs. Lewis says this is like a check in for the Board of Supervisors so they can see what the Planning

Commission is thinking and they can see if they are thinking the same thing. She says they well may want

to have a workshop with the Planning Commission so you all can talk about this together. She says maybe

the Planning Commission has gone off on a way that the Board of Supervisors isn’t considering at all so

any changes of course would go through the typical process with a public hearing before this Board and a

public hearing before the Board of Supervisors but this is like a check-in so the Planning Commission can

see if you are capturing what the Board of Supervisors was thinking when they directed you to look at it.

Commissioner Mann says you asked a question about do we want to include Franklin and adjoining areas

in Isle of Wight or across the state line but I was also looking at the A-2 zoned areas so the A-2 areas match

up with pretty much the six locations as far as the one mile buffer for towns except the area around

Franklin, he says we have A-2 around Franklin but it’s not showing in this one mile area. He says if we

include the City of Franklin and adjoining communities that would change the look of this one mile buffer

for towns a little bit different, right.


December 10, 2020

24

Commissioner Mann says it would be nice to see what that would look like, I’ll be honest with you and I

may have asked this question before but the utility project that is in the Boykins-Branchville area, exactly

what did they have to pay for their bond fee, what was eventually settled on, what did they do with the

County.

Mrs. Lewis says they put up a bond of two hundred fifty thousand dollars for the whole project.

Commissioner Mann says if I recall that was fourteen hundred acres.


Commissioner Randall says I know I’m beating a dead horse again but when we talk about bonding for

solar, you just don’t know and if we don’t know, again I think our recommendation should be repeal of

the solar ordinance. He says every article that I read seems objective, the McGuire-Woods article written

by Brennan King (and I know Brennan) last page talks about a note on the siting agreement and special

exception legislation. He says we went to this workshop at the IP building and was told what the General

Assembly was going to do, well we know what the General Assembly simply has done and they are giving

avenues for the Planning Commission and the Board of Supervisors to give them additional, I guess, means

when they want to approve solar. He says so why in the world, if they are giving us additional means with

Special Use or Conditional Use permit to put very restrictive means on it, why in the world would we do

an ordinance. He says it doesn’t make any sense to me from a legal perspective and Brennan is laying out

that requiring cash payments and this windfall that the General Assembly is pushing is the voluntary cash

proffer system is unprecedented but it is allowable by law and it has not really been subjected to judicial

scrutiny but there is no identifiable road map for localities and solar developers to move forward under

the new legislation. He says so if we don’t have a road map, we are going to write a specific ordinance,

that doesn’t make any sense. He says I think it is malfeasance, I think it is gross negligence and I am not

going to support it, and we can talk about bonds, we have beat that horse and I get it, it’s smart what you

are thinking about but it is never going to be an answer. He says we are never going to know, we are

going to ask rhetorical questions and we are going to beat ourselves up but ultimately there is no idea

what it’s going to take in thirty years, it’s going to be a lot but the more I read about solar, the more that

I’m for repeal and you look historically, the majority of the counties in Virginia do not have a solar

ordinance.

Commissioner Randall says I understand the analysis when solar was so new, now solar has been here for

a while, we don’t have to have a solar ordinance, we don’t, we can just use the Conditional Use Permit

process to be restrictive on a case-by-case bases, we can still do that. He says, Dr. Edwards, is the Board

considering that option. He says I asked Mr. Railey this and I did not get a good answer. He says why are

we doing it, are we just doing it because there was a seminar that said the localities need to step it up and

do this.

Commissioner Randall says a viable smart option for the locality, the citizens in a public forum to vet solar

panels because we know the situation we have now, 1400 acres which isn’t the best situation and I think

we have to be proactive, the repeal of the current ordinance and just use the special use permit, the

December 10, 2020

25

process works. He says so many things in Southampton County that we can spend our time on than talking

about bonds for solar panels and cleaning them up a hundred years from now. He says, aren’t there other

problems, do we really need to go on and on and on, can’t we talk about other things. He says, I guess

I’m frustrated but it doesn’t make sense to me. He says this article is a great article and I hope everyone

has read it and it says yes, this is great but this isn’t great and there are so many unanswered question.

He says I guess I’m just going to say this every time this is on the agenda, I’ll just say repeal.

Commissioner Chesson says, Jack can I ask you a question.

Commissioner Randall says yes.

Commissioner Chesson says the only thought that came to my mind in this is the term arbitrary and

capricious.

Commissioner Randall says what is arbitrary and capricious.

Commissioner Chesson says if we have an application, let’s say there is no ordinance, and we came up

with a condition, it’s a twenty acre site that they want to put up and we decide to put on a condition that

it will be a three million dollar bond that I think would probably be considered arbitrary and capricious.

Commissioner Randall says I think if it is unreal and that it would shock the conscience but I don’t think

that we have ever done that. He says I think with the conditional use, just like we did with the event

venue, as long as we are consistent, as long as we are objective and as long as we are rationale and

reasonable, we can approve it or disapprove it. He says it still gives us the option without a specific

ordinance because with technology, say we approve an ordinance in six months, the ordinance will be

obsolete in twenty-four months. He says I think we limit our decision-making ability with an ordinance in

every circumstance.

Chairman Drake says now we have an ordinance, we just felt like there was a need to modify it.

Commissioner Randall says I think the request was recommendations because the Board thought that it

needed to be modified or changed in some way. He says certainly my position, and may be the minority

position which is fine, is to repeal it and not have it. He says I think I’ve given my basics for it, that it

restricts more than it helps because I thought the initial analysis was that the current ordinance was, and

Mr. Mann hit on that and he brought up some great points but then I start thinking economically we just

can’t get answers to a facility that has been cleaned up. He says you can’t get that cost of the hazardous

materials and it’s so open-ended and speculative, we’ve got to speculate too much. He says and at some

point, the point could repeal it at any time that is an option. He says, I’m just one vote with the group, I

just think the way the General Assembly is acting, it is acting much differently now than our workshop

two or three years ago. He says I think we kind of got ahead ourselves and I’ve spoken about solar panels

and I’ve put on record that I’ve voted for the first one and then I said that was a mistake on my part

because it was not a windfall, it was held out as a windfall and it was not a windfall for the County, in my

subjective view and I think ultimately we are here to safeguard the community regardless of what our

opinion is and I think procedurally there is no better mechanism than repeal to do that because it gives

December 10, 2020

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us the most decision-making capabilities to approve it or to disprove it. He says it gives us that sliding

scale, it gives us that discretion that Brennan King talks about. He says all the General Assembly did was

add cash payment to the proffer system so certainly in a Conditional Use Permit we could add what the

General Assembly has given us, well if you want it, this is what we need for X,Y,Z instead of having the

solar ordinance where they are compliant with the solar ordinance and we don’t have that overall

discretion that we have had tonight on the event venue. He says so I just don’t think it is smart to do that

and I think things have changed from the Board, I think we are meeting our mandate and going on and

on, I really think that is an option that we should consider to recommend to the Board and ultimately they

are going to decide.

Chairman Drake says I like that you said options. He says can we present to the Board a couple of different

ideas Mrs. Lewis.


Chairman Drake says we could come up with some of these points of interest, one being to do away with

the ordinance, that is an option, maybe we could have the workshop and all of us get together we could

iron out the differences and give the reasons why we supported the various options and let that be one

of the options. He says personally, if we retain the ordinance, which I know we worked really hard on,

which Jack, not to be disagreeable but I’m being disagreeable, I think we need the ordinance myself, I

think we need those protective guidelines in place, to go in blindsided, I feel like we might come back to

haunt us because you might put yourself in a position to use an application where they use an application

of denial or approval as a precedence and the next one come in, like I say, it could come back to haunt us,

but that’s just my opinion. He says I would like to go back to that October meeting, I think that is when

we touched on three different issues, I think one was about the prime farm land, one was the distance

from the town and the A-2 zoning and no salvage value.

Commissioner Randall says I just want to point out though statistically, I was probably there four months

ago where you were, yes maybe we need it but statically once the ordinance is approved, that’s for all the

facilities, statically by far and it jumps hundreds of percent so I’m just looking at what the proof is in the

pudding, I don’t think it is going to have that effect because it hasn’t historically in Virginia, it’s had the

opposite effect of what you are saying what you are worried about.

Commissioner Mann says you just said the majority of counties in Virginia do not have an ordinance and

statistically where there is an ordinance, there is more solar panels.

Commissioner Randall says absolutely, from the approval of the ordinance and then the applications,

flooded.

Chairman Drake says because they figure out how to meet the guidelines, is that what you are saying,

they figure out the criteria and they do it.

Commissioner Randall says yes.

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Commissioner Mann says I’m looking at the history of what we ran into in North Carolina, there were a

lot of facilities that went in and they approved them and had no ordinance and they were learning on the

go and a lot of these facilities got approved with no decommissioning plan, zero. He says we know a lot

about solar panels and still have a lot to learn but let me say this Board changes for some reason

everybody has replaced them, the knowledge we have acquired over time and the people that take our

spot may be ten times smarter than we are or learning on the go and I think with the facility we have now,

they have a chance to have salvage value, correct.

Mrs. Lewis say correct.

Commissioner Mann says so we have a facility that can do salvage value, they did a two hundred fifty

thousand dollar bond, that is one hundred seventy-eight dollars an acre, now this Planning Commission

suggested something totally different and our Board of Supervisors in their wisdom decided to change

that. He says now I know personally, it was within a week or two weeks prior to them approving that

application, I had a Board of Supervisor member tell me they didn’t know enough about it to vote on it

and yet they voted to approve and at one hundred seventy-eight dollars and acre, it doesn’t take anybody

with an advanced math degree to realize that you can’t do anything with that and I had somebody at state

level, they didn’t even understand it and the guy that I was talking to was from the Division of Minerals,

Mines and Energy and that title should have classed him as an expert and I was shocked at some of the

statement he made and when I told him about the contracts that were coming out, his comment was,

now Mr. Mann are you sure this is a reputable company and I said it is the same one that your boss man

shook hands with last fall and when I made that statement, the guy shut down and gave me ten words or

less answers after that and he even went so far as to tell me that even if the solar facilities went bankrupt,

we had that land rezoned at a higher tax rate and I asked him, who’s going to pay the taxes if it goes

bankrupt, that land will just be sitting there at a high tax rate and nobody is paying the bill. He says I was

shocked and amazed at just how blindsided he was by the industry and he is in Richmond and that was

his full-time job and I wasn’t talking to the guy that sweeps the floor either. He says I had an engineer tell

me that it would be a minimum of ten to thirteen thousand dollars an acre to clean it up but I couldn’t get

him to put it on paper, he didn’t want to, it was a hot topic in Richmond, he figured if he put it on paper

and it hit the news, he would probably lose his job but unofficially he would tell me that and that was

more in line with what I was thinking so I agree with you we were told that in our ordinance that we had

we were requesting before we did this, we were requesting a Conditional Use Permit and somebody

looked at that and said that was good planning for the future but this facility we have got passed and what

we recommended as a Planning Commission was about 80-90% ignored and what the Board was

promised, I don’t know but we see in hindsight that they did not follow our recommendations and it’s

going to cost the County. He says I would like to write an ordinance that still leave us a little room for a

Conditional Use Permit that allow us to make more up-to-date decisions when we look at applications

because you are right, six months from now, all this technology will change, eighteen months from now

we may be obsolete on everything, the cost of dismantling a facility may be lower or ten times higher and

I want to tie our fee to a certain worth but I also would like to have some minimums, to say this is what I

have learned, this is what our neighbors have run into and this is what we expect as a minimum but it still

may be more restrictions and how we can accomplish that legally, I don’t know. He says here we are in

a discussion talking about solar panels on the highway, to me, energy in forty years will be very important

but food in forty years is going to be more important so we are the Planning Commission and we have got

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to look forty years down the road but I don’t want to tie our hands either. He says, it scares me to write

an ordinance, to be honest.

Commissioner Randall says it is a good point you are making of the balancing act of discretion and stability,

I guess that’s the best word, because what happened in Carolina had a lot of politics involved and it’s hard

to control politics but I just don’t see a way, either we have an ordinance that spells it out or we have

discretion and I guess I’m weighing the discretion is much more important than the ordinance because

we just can’t get there, if they don’t have the answers in Richmond, we are not going to have them and I

guess I’m getting frustrated because I want to find the answers for the Board, but I’ve come to the

conclusion personally that we are never going to find them because you can talk to three different groups

and get three different answers and there is politics for economics in play here so were are going to get

that talking out of the left side of the mouth so I guess I’m saying that I really would not like to go through

with the process and I would like to repeal it and I agree with your point, I agree with Mr. Mann’s point

and I guess I have evolved from four months ago and I guess I have sat here and listened very closely and

I have done a lot of research on it and I guess I’m just going with the statistics of what has happened in

other localities and I just don’t think it is a good thing for Southampton County under any circumstances,

and we put in a lot of time with the ordinance that we recommended to the Board of Supervisors and Mr.

Mann is right, it was cut up maybe 20%, it wasn’t a lot that was kept, so I just think that as fiduciaries, we

need to be definitive, you know what my position is and I wish I had the answers because usually we kind

of come together with something fairly reasonable but if we don’t know what reasonable is, how can we

be reasonable, so I guess that I’m just holding out that it’s going to have to be a case-by-case until the

technology either slows down or we get more definitive clean-up cost and bonding and it’s just such a hot

topic, I just don’t want to risk an ordinance that I’ve contributed to and then thirty years Southampton

County looks like a different place, and I’m not trying to be dramatic but I think that’s what we risk by

approving something that we don’t know much about so I’d rather just repeal it and be able to go home

and say we are going to look at each one at a time.

Chairman Drake ask Commissioner Chesson if he has a comment.

Mr. Chesson did not have a comment.

Chairman Drake ask Commissioner Edwards if he has a comment.

Commissioner Edwards says the only thing I can say is I see both side of it, we are trying to make rules on

something and we don’t know what the game is, we haven’t been there before and we are trying to look

down the pipe thirty-forty years and see what to do and it’s impossible for us to do that, we just don’t

have the ability to do that so I would consider getting rid of the ordinance, if I thought that a Conditional

Use Permit would protect us, that’s what we are all worried about, this stuff scares us to death. He says,

I don’t want to be next to one, I don’t want to see the whole farm area covered up with them that scares

me, it’s just a matter of what would protect us the best, a Conditional Use Permit or do we need an

ordinance, I can see problems with both of them.

Commissioner Chesson says Mr. Chairman, do we have, if the ordinance is repealed, can we have a

document out here to give an applicant and call it guidelines, to give an applicant some idea on where we

December 10, 2020

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were thinking and what the conditions might land so that they wouldn’t be totally blindsided when they

came in, I guess I feel for Mrs. Lewis, she has to convey, try to help the applicant navigate the process and

if she had some document that she could pull out and say I don’t know what your conditions will be but

this is a document that gives some guidelines.

Chairman Drake says I agree, I agree totally and I guess an ordinance will kind of address that but a

Conditional Use Permit may be different from application to application, so Mrs. Lewis do you have a

comment on that question.

Mrs. Lewis says you either have an ordinance or you don’t. So if you don’t have an ordinance, you don’t

have a handbook either, so it seems to me mechanically, if the County doesn’t have an ordinance, when

an applicant calls and asks what the guidelines are, the guidelines are you have to be in the M-1 zoning

designation with a Conditional Use Permit. So the applicant submits an application and it is a notebook

that is six inches thick and I say I need ten of those because each Planning Commission member is going

to get one and then I will deliver to you a six inch notebook and then you as a group will have to come up

with some sort of recommendation and I can’t imagine how long that might take. She says there are lots

of ways to look at it and not having an ordinance certainly gives the County all sorts of discretion, on the

other hand, how long do you think it would take to get through one application. It’s not predictable,

developers of all types, whether they are solar developers or shopping center developers or neighborhood

developers, they want predictability. So bring in ten six inch notebooks and say, well you know, maybe a

year or two from now, this will get to the Board of Supervisors. She says on the other hand when you do

have regulations, there is some predictability and they age out, they are not good forever, so maybe one

of the bigger sticking points is decommissioning and that’s what you feel you don’t know much about and

so maybe the decommissioning chapter is a lot more give and take but it seems to me that both the

potential solar developers and this Board would like a starting point, the starting point may be you need

to be in this zoning district with a Conditional Use Permit and maybe that’s all the starting point is, but

maybe the starting point is a certain percentage of, since we are in an agricultural community, protecting

agriculture and forestry land that is most productive, maybe you don’t have a thirty page ordinance,

maybe you just have some set in stone guidelines, you can’t use more than a certain percent of prime

farm land and farm land of statewide importance. That’s non-negotiable, you not getting pass that one,

maybe you have a maximum size so you don’t have someone come in like the one in Spotsylvania County

that is 5000 acres, something huge, maybe it is much more pared down and bare bones than it is now it

seems to me that it would be unwielding and pretty close to impossible to ever get through and

application with no starting point, that’s just me.

Commissioner Mann says right now our office does say M-1 with a Conditional Use Permit, correct.


Commissioner Mann says Jack does that leave the opening there that we can add more conditions, even

if we have an ordinance.

Commissioner Randall says I don’t have it in front of me but what about A-1

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Mrs. Lewis says it is not permitted in A-1 now.

Chairman Drake says it has to be zoned.

Commissioner Randall says I’ve asked Mr. Railey this question several times so I’m not the county attorney

so I can’t speak on the county attorney’s behalf but I think there are significant problems with the current

ordinance from a constitutional basis and eliminating A-1 completely so I really don’t want to speak to

that from a legal opinion I think there is some limited restrictions that is available, but you are getting

yourself in trouble because it’s an ordinance and then the question becomes what you can and can not

do with a Conditional Use Permit with an ordinance, I don’t want to give a legal opinion because it is not

my bailiwick , that is what Mr. Railey does and he does a good job at it and keeps the County out of trouble

but I don’t believe individually that it gives us much discretion at all because of the ordinance, I think you

have to do one or the other.

Commissioner Mann say if we don’t allow it in A-1 and only allow it in M-1 with a Conditional Use Permit

and they want to go in A-1, they have to rezone that area first, correct.

Commissioner Randall says yes, as it is currently written.

Commissioner Mann says that is one area right there that the Board has to either approve or disapprove

a rezoning, correct, so if you are trying to rezone M-1 out the middle of A-1 all the way around it, you have

a leg to stand on legally, it’s something that I was under the impression of and I didn’t sit down and read

this ordinance before I came tonight but as we talk I remember that we had this big issue of keeping M-1

with a Conditional Use Permit and not allow in A-1 and A-2 and I think we had a Board of Supervisor that

all of a sudden, some of them said, you got a point, let’s do that and that’s the safety net I thought but

I’m literally trying to see where you are coming from and I’m staying open minded but on a legal side I

don’t see how if we decide not to rezone something, how does that get us trouble with legal, I thought

that’s what the Planning Commission could do, we are not going to rezone, it’s not M-1 does not fit this

area so we are not going to rezone.

Commissioner Randall says we are getting mixed up now because we are talking about apples and

oranges, are we talking about the current or our recommended.

Commissioner Mann says currently it is, it has to be in an M-1 with a Conditional Use Permit, right.

Mrs. Lewis says that’s correct.

Commissioner Mann says so if somebody comes in and wants to put it in an A-1 or A-2, they have to get

it rezoned first and then if we rezone it they have to have a Conditional Use Permit so if we decide that

we are not rezoning from A-1 to M-1, everything comes to a halt.

Chairman Drake says or does it, is that right.

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Commissioner Randall says I don’t want to speak, we can talk after the meeting if you like. I understand

where you are going to say that we have all this great discretion but I don’t feel that way, I don’t feel that

we do, especially if there are constitutional issues, I’m trying to project.

Commissioner Mann says I thought at the previous meeting, and we were talking about it, I thought we

were trying to identify areas that we weren’t going to look to favorably but then identify areas that would

be looked at favorably. Is that not correct.

Commissioner Randall asks Mrs. Lewis if we have the current ordinance in our materials, I’m looking for it

desperately and can’t find it.

Commissioner Turner says he has question. He says I’ve done a little research from the previous minutes

but what Mr. Mann was saying about the A-1 to M-1 with the Conditional Use Permit which basically tags

along to Mr. Randall is saying, these restrictions that we were given in our packet with the one mile radius

in the A-2, that’s basically more restrictions on where they are allowed than where they are not allowed.

So if they come in as A-

COMMISSIONERS PRESENT...Dr. Alan Edwards AYE Douglas Chesson AYE John (Jack) Randall AYE Michael Mann AYE Brad Turner AYE Chairman Drake continues, any opposed, like sign. Chairman

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