Archive through February 10, 2005 - Amarillo Design Bureau Tactics/TD Archive... · funny, use (DDDF1) or (PPD/DBF) or heck, (SgF1). Or something else silly. But really, there are

Archive through February 10, 2005

Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone: Tactics Discussion: Archive 2005: Archive

through February 10, 2005

By Ben Tilford (Hobbit) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Has anyplace or anyone collated the tactics and tips made in this or any other tactics discussions? I'm finding it difficult to go back and extract tactics relevant to any given matchup by fishing through two years worth of discussions, even using the search engine.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Marcus Geingrch (whose name I probably spelled wrong) has a really good collection of tactical articles by ship on his web site. Sadly, i don't know the URL off hand, but I'm sure someone will come and post it soon.

-Peter

By John C. Malis (Malis) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 04:42 pm: Edit

http://www.celeritycomm.net/team/marcus/misc/sfb/index.htm

By Ben Tilford (Hobbit) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Thank you!

By John C. Malis (Malis) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:35 pm: Edit

np

By Ray Belanger (Rug) on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Can anyone get me the link to the RPS guide?

Thanks

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:10 pm: Edit

There is no link to it, I never completed it or published it. All I did is collect various comments on each of the ships from several of the posters here and organized them by ship in a word document. I did this about 1 - 2 years ago, so none of it's current and it's almost like a collection of random thoughts, but I still think much of it is helpful. I'll email you the word doc. If anybody else wants it, just let me know and I'll shoot it your way.

EDIT: Apparently, I did put it up there. Just don't use the race links (fed, Rom, etc..) because they are not all working. You'll just have to scroll down to find what you're looking for. Here's the link:

http://www.celeritycomm.net/team/marcus/misc/sfb/alltactics.htm# General%20Tactical%20Discussions

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 02:09 pm: Edit

So it's been pointed out to me that flying the Orion with the Paul/Norm packages(ffg1F/hhgbb) is a bit cheesy. Since the only place I like cheese, is on my pizza.. I need at least one new option package. I'd prefer to replace the HB package, since I enjoy flying the ffg1F package a lot more than the HB package.

In general, I use the HB package against the plasma chuckers, and the ESG's. Off the top of my head, it seems like the only reasonable(but clearly lesser) replacement is the phaser boat(g1111). That doesn't feel like it matches well with the ffg1F though. I've also toyed with the idea of putting a PPD in the nose, but finding a good combination of other options to go with it has been a challenge. Suggestions anyone?

thx, Brian

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Brian. I like the HgPFb. Put 2 IVMs in the rack. Unload one of them on T1. T2 go for a R2 oblique (fusion side). Expect to lose the Drone rack and Fusion beam. T3 repair rack. T4 - another R2 pass. If you're lucky, you can suprise him with a IVM on T5. If not, at least your HB is likely still around on T6 for the finale (if needed).

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 02:55 pm: Edit

If you want to keep the ffg1f, a hellbore package of some sort is probably the best way to compliment it. The thing about the hhgbb I never liked is that it doesn't have a prayer of creating a weak shield for the HB's outside of range 4 if the opponent uses any kind of reinforcement. You gotta get close. And that's sort of the anti-thesis of having hellbores in the 1st place. That's why I use the hh11b package. I can bring 5-6 p1's to bear and have a decent chance of knocking down a forward shield. If you want to keep the gat, go hhg1b. Or to keep the ship symetrical go hhb11. I've seen (and tried) some other wacky packages involving the hb.

hgb11 - more like a phaser boat featuring a hellbore. What I don't like aboout single hb packages is that if you're using the hellbore as your feature weapon, then you really need 2 of them because even they miss from time to time. IF the hb is just a complimentary weapon, then go ahead and go with 1.

hppfb or (preferably)hpp1b - Brook flew the hppfb against my firehawk last week and won in a 9 turn slugfest. If even 1 photon hits on the opening volley, you likely get to completely down the facing shield. The drawback is that you must double an engine just to arm the torps on the 1st turn. I think the hpp1b may be better because if you've hurt your opponent, you can afford to lose a photon to damage and the wing p1 is just plain better than the fusion.

hhf1b - Bret O'Neil has been using this for years and I've seen Scott Moellmer

take a similar package. You have the option of bolting the F to create the weak shield, or launching it (real or psuedo) if you want to get into a turning duel.

Non hellbore packages:

Like you said, the g1111 is excellent but as vanilla as Clay Aiken. And it's the kind of package that you'd use to suppliment a hb package, not replace it.

pppf1 - same as the g1111 in the hb complimentary area and hit or miss against the plasma ships. Literally. And if you want full overloads on the 1st turn you may have to double both engines.

ppg1f - Another Bret O'Neil special. Ask him about it, he's been flying it for years.

The 1st tourney I ever entered saw me flying a PPD package. Man was that stupid. I got run over on turn 2 every time I played it. Now it's a given I also really sucked back then, but I believe you really need to be a manuever god to make a PPD package work. Getting the 1st ppd shot in is easy. Getting the 2nd one in is a bitch if your opponent is determined to ram himself down your throat (or up your ass, depends which way you're facing). Maybe put an f torp in the front, a p1 in 1 wing mount and a drone rack in the other? Come out at high speed turn 1, reinforce a flank shield and PPD him on the way in. Then turn off and launch the F and a drone to give him something to play with if he wants to follow you. IF you can stay away from him all of turn 2 and end it 5+ hexes away from him, you can get a couple PPD pulses in on turn 3 and then cloak out. On the other hand, if your opponent turns off on the 1st turn before you've fired the PPD for some bizarre reason, you can PPD his flank shields and have a clean getaway to set up your turn 3 PPD attack. Now that I think of it, I may give this thing a try again after Total Con. I still don't think it's a very strong package though. More like something I'll screw around with in NetKill on SFBOL.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Also ther one shot wonder ffFFg is interesting to fly. Can move very fast with lots of reinforcement. the downside is you'll probably need ot cloak after the first pass.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Brian wrote: >>So it's been pointed out to me that flying the Orion with the Paul/Norm packages(ffg1F/hhgbb) is a bit cheesy.>>

Oh, for the love of punk rock. "Cheesy"? Man. There are only so many good options for the Orion. The ffg1F is one of the good ones. But it has a lot of problems against people who realize to park at the right times.

>>Since the only place I like cheese, is on my pizza.. I need at least one new option package.>>

Well, if you want effective, use (ffgF1) or (HHg1B) or something. If you want funny, use (DDDF1) or (PPD/DBF) or heck, (SgF1). Or something else silly.

But really, there are only, like, a handfull of really useful packages.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:16 pm: Edit

I had been considering a pfbb. I just don't think a plas F and 1 drone is enough to slow down much of anyone. Having 2 drones, makes it a little more work to fly through the whole thing to get at the Orion, since it will likely be facing a total of 4 drones over 2 turns. The other piece is that I would be aiming for a T2 ppd shot, instead of T1, in hopes of maneuvering into a good position to shoot and scoot. Obviously the plasma and drones would be used to set that up.

The main problem I see with the PPD boat, is that it will probably rely on cloaking at some point. Since I wanna use it vs the Roms, I could run into the cloak limit, or even worse is the possibility of burning my engines out in a long game.

I think the PPg1F is an excellent package. The problem is that it doesn't coordinate well with the ffg1F as far as opponents. Mainly because neither package is gonna work well against the Roms(if I'm wrong here, please let me know). If I decided to drop the ffg1F, this would almost certainly be it's replacement.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:04 pm: Edit

ffg1f and PPg1f are not really Compilmentary packages. Aka you can't take both and be competive.

I don't like taking Hells vs Lyrans. Sorry I just don't. (esp since I run 1 B rack)

If I switched my PP to ff, I'd be w/o an answer to Lyrans.

Hells or Phasers Phots or Plasmas

Those are the general option choices With a little mix & match for personal preferance. (aka: 1 one over run and 1 standoff package)

I like shooting @ 2 or shooting at 5-8, hence phots and hells. My decisions are based on old metagame. (feds & andys were around way back then)

but I'm ok with them in general.

Look at the field and what your options can do against them. Are you forced to take ff vs BP? are you talking Hells vs Hydro? if so you probably have a bad mix.

The modified jackhammer rocks (PPG1f) and I really Like my HHF1B. It is a touch quirky but I like it and play it vs BP.

PPD: just don't do it. (I'd rather have an S; S,F,f,1 is playable if sucky) LIIT Orions generally don't work. Pick an attack plan and go with it.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:12 pm: Edit

deleted Duplicant Post

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:07 pm: Edit

I'd take ddGBB as a close-in package if Plas-D racks were hit on drone instead of torp.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 01:17 pm: Edit

I've already thought of the exact same thing. It would be a mean knife fighter. I wonder why D racks are hit on torp hits and not on drone hits anyways?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Marcus. So they don't pad the S torps on KDRs.

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 03:09 pm: Edit

So they don't or so they do?

By Les LeBlanc (Lessss) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 03:13 pm: Edit

D racks are hit on torp and hence protect the S torps. It used to be the rack itself got hit on drone but no more - it is hit with Torp.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Yeah - that's what I meant (posting while at work)

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Topic Orions.

You can run either PP or ff vs BP: Just it gets messy. Flying PP you are a fast Fed. Winning this generally involves "juk'n" a torp (speed 31, HET) into an Overrun.

Flying ff you are a phaser boat low on fire power, but you can force your opponent to make strange decisions to avoid the pl-F's (ranged launch or a "Juke and tractor" approach) Or you can pretend the F's are a direct fire weapon, and have a good time bolting

@5, with pretty bricks to keep the BP from bolting back. Just don't miss to often.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:08 am: Edit

D's are hit on torp...so the ISC couldnt pad the PPD with them.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Can we not refer to a doiube plasma F orion as ff something? I thought we had standardized earlier on F for the plasmas and f for the fusion beams. It makes it very difficult to figure out what the hell people are talking about when they ude the same abbreviation for both.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Jay, I always thought it was the other way around

f = F torp F = Fusion

Which way is it guys?

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 06:05 pm: Edit

I was under the same impression as Marcus.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:32 am: Edit

Just spell them out. I find the whole letter thing confusing anyway.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 01:35 pm: Edit

I tried out a PPD in the Orion the other day. I had a plas F, and 2 b racks in the wings as my other options.

The game pretty much went as I expected(vs TKR). On turn 1 we closed launching a bunch of sw's, and exchanged fire. I sanded off about half of his #1 and #2 with the PPD, phasers, a Plas F, and Het'd away.

On turn 2 my only mission was to avoid getting killed, and gain some separation. I also felt that I might be able to finish knocking down the #1. I took a few internals(bolted F's and phasers), and dealt with an EPT. I also managed to knock down the #1 and did 7 or 8 internals. This required a 2nd HET, and extremely high speed(31 almost all turn).

On turn 3 I had the PPD warmed up and chased the TKR up into the top left corner, firing it OL'd on Imp 30. We quit after impulse 2 of T4 when it was clear I was gonna strip all the weapons off him and then launch a plas F and some more drones for him to deal with.

My impression after the game was that if the Orion escapes in good condition on T2, it's gonna be very tough to beat. With the PPD hot on T3, and plasma online on T4 that's a nice 1-2 combo. I think targeting the #1 is very important, because of the maneuver problem that creates. But, if they turn off to avoid giving up the #1, then that provides a good opportunity on a rear shield with an easy escape route. I'm gonna probably give it another try, to see if these results are even some what repeatable.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Bri, IF both of us are sitting out of it on Sunday at TotalCon, I'll try a game with you and your PPD Orion. Sounds interesting!

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 09:19 am: Edit

I tried this with some success a while back...Brians assement is about right.

By Jon Berry (Laz_Longsmith) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Out of curiosity, of all the tournament ships, which is the worst one to be cornered in, and which is the best one to do the cornering? And why?

-- JonB

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Worst is AUX as there is no way out and HET doesn't work very well.

Best cornering ships are BPs due to Big Plasma

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 08:41 pm: Edit

I disagree. At least an AUX has weapons. The worst ship to be cornered in is Gorn the turn after launching HPOP. At least the Roms can cloak in that situation.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:57 pm: Edit

I think the worst ship to be cornered by is the Kzinti ir WYN Shark, because they can maintain a steady stream of abuse turn after turn.

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Weel Aux with P3s in option Mounts and empty drone racks would be 2nd worst to an Burned out Orion with empty add racks.

By Seth Iniguez (Sutehk) on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 08:22 am: Edit

I think Big Plasma is in the best position once the opponent is cornered, assuming they have enough plasma ready to capitalize on it.

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 11:04 am: Edit

You don't want to be cornered by the Archeo-Tholian. If it doesn't have to pay to

move and chase you (since you're in the corner), it's just a damage hose. The ATC can shoot it's entire energy production each turn out the #1! ( 4(HK) + 16(4xOL DISR) + 5(WC as WebFist) + 8(PH1) = it's 33 power ) An average of 61.33 pts per turn from R4.

Plus, if you're truly in the corner, it just places cast web across the tournament barrier late in the turn and you CAN'T get out until late next turn.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:11 pm: Edit

After playing a couple of LYR/TKE games with CatWhoEatsPhotons, we were discussing some alternate openings for the TKE, that might help alleviate its single-heavy-torp problem. Any thoughts on the idea of holding the R-torp, and just launching 2 real F's? You'd have to give the opponent a (hopefully bricked) range 5-8 shot on the 2/6 to make it worthwhile, but I can see 2 possible outcomes:

1. Opponent turns off to outrun the F's. TKE chases with it's R-torp turn 2 and still has the R-PPT available. 2. Opponent presses the attack and eats the F-torps for 30. TKE launches the R-torp and turns off.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:31 pm: Edit

That seems fairly reasonable to me, although turning and running from the F's doesn't require running that far, really, like 2S's do.

I'd think that the non TKE guy could reasonably run the F's out to 11 hexes by slipping some and a bit of turning out, and by using a couple P3's, take minimal damage on a flank and still be able to threaten a good OL shot of some type. If the TKE then launches the R (real or no), opponent would have to turn and run, but might have more ability to take a reasonable OL shot.

I don't think taking a R6-8 shot on the 2/6 is something even remotely bad for the TKE (especially with the armor), even if it means that its opponent outruns the F's. And if it doesn't, you can launch the R, fire pahsers through the hole, and HET out.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Peter: yeah, the opponent can start turning back in pretty quick after running out the F's, so the TKE would need to keep its speed up to stay on his tail.

As for slipping the F's out to r11, I figured the TKE would need to hold launch until about range 11-12. I haven't worked it out on the map yet, but I think this would force the opponent to turn off if he wants to draw them out to r11 (10 dmg).

And yes, a couple of points in HET would be prudent for the TKE using this opening. That leaves power for post-HET acceleration if the opponent goes banzai.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 08:03 pm: Edit

Yeah, I think it certainly has potential as a plan, but I'm not so much seeing how it is that much better than launching a psuedo R.

I mean, yeah, if they just run into the plasmas, you are better off than if you launched the psuedo, but assuming that they are unlikely to just run into the plasma, and you probably want them to turn off anyway so you can chase them in the corner, the Psuedo R seems like as reasonable a plan.

But then, I never play Romulan so what do I know :-)

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 08:18 pm: Edit

The advantage over launching a pseudo R is that you get to keep the PPT for when he eventually parks/weasels, which is where the TKE struggles IMO. Or alternately, you can use the pseudo to keep him running through turn 2, then use the real R-torp to keep him running through turn 3. By turn 4, you have the F-torps armed again. The whole time you're whittling down his rear shields with phasers. At least, that's the theory.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Seems like a reasonable theory to me, really.

I'd figure you get to range 10 or so and launch the two F's. Try and give him a #2/#6 shot (maybe by slipping) if he comes in, making sure that he can take a R6-8 but not a R5 or less without eating the plasmas. He shoots at 8 and turns off. You take sheild damage, and get to chase him into the corner pretty well.

Yeah, ok. I'd buy into it.

-Peter

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Thoughts....Depends on what your flying against... A shark might phaser/eat the two F's, blast and run. An ISC, might not care that you launch at 11-12...he's already shooting and turning off before your plasma gets there.. ETC. my $.02

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 03:57 am: Edit

Mark: the 2xF opening would be mainly for disruptor ships, specifically Lyran, LDR

and D&D. Not as useful vs Tholian or another plasma ship. (I was going to test it against Scott M's Neo the other night, but it wasn't practical)

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 08:07 am: Edit

Considering the range of the R, I wonder if not a EPT is the way to go. If the opponent tries to run it out you could get to a good position of launching the F's when he is close to the map edge.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 10:19 am: Edit

Carl,

The Enveloper is usually, like, the standard opening--I think Jude is looking at some kind of innovative alternate opening. With the 2F launch, as opposed to the Enveloped R opening, you have going for you:

A) The F's might be fake, meaning your opponent might run into them (good) or might turn and run them out, and have to worry that you still have 2F's armed.

B) If they turn and run from the F's, you can chase them into the corner and still have an R and a psuedo R. Launching either will probably draw a weasel if they are in the corner. The second one (assuming the first was a fake) will likely draw another weasel.

This all sounds pretty reasonable, but I think the big question is if the 2F's are scary enough to chase someone into the corner, as they can slip and drag them out to 11 hexes and take them for not even a down sheild.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:00 am: Edit

Carl: with an EPT R-torp, it usually goes like this IME:

Turn 1: Opponent flees EPT Turn 2: Opponent continues fleeing EPT, and eats weakened F-torps while swinging around Turn 3: Opponent zips across the map at high speed, chasing the TKE deep into the corner

With the F-torp launch, I'm thinking it could go more like this:

Turn 1: Opponent turns to outrun F's Turn 2: TKE launches PPT (or real?) R-torp and continues chasing Turn 3: hmm, turn 3 is covered if the TKE launches a PPT-R turn 2, but not if he launches a real. That could be a potential flaw in my plan.

Will have to mull this over...maybe playtest it.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 01:05 pm: Edit

Actually, maybe the idea is to just launch a single f-torp on turn 1. What you really want to happen is what happened in your game with Scott. Opponent eats f-torp at or near full strength. (Note: A Hydran, Kzinti or LDR should just eat the f-torp at r6-10 after firing 4p3's at it.)

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:16 am: Edit

Jude, yeah, but the opponent should have some shield damage from the Fs at least. Besides wouldn't use of both real and fake Fs on T:2 mean they hit with no phaser reduction? Considering the lack of a second heavy the TKE will be forced to run away some time during the game anyway. But if the opponent has lost a shield it's not that bad?

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 11:14 am: Edit

Bill: yes, a single F could work too, since an opponent determined to get range 4 will likely need to turn in (read: eat the R-torp) anyway, so the F launch doesn't need to threaten internals.

Carl: If the opponent has only lost a shield in the process of driving the TKE into a corner (and assuming he's done some shield damage in return), I'd say the TKE has surrendered the initiative. Essentially, the TKE is using F's on turn 2 to accomplish what another BP ship would use the 2nd heavy for. This means no plasma threat turn 3 for the TKE. Other BP ships can usually engage with the F's turn 3 if they want. The dual-F opening is meant to eliminate the turn 3 plasma gap, and keep the TKE on the offensive for more than 2 turns without having to spend the PPT.

BTW: I think the TKE might be able to avoid launching the PPT turn 2 if he launches the real R very late in the turn. This means spending the first part of t2 chasing the opponent, and not launching anything. I think this might be doable.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 11:44 am: Edit

Jude, the last sound worth trying. The endurance of a R in part cover up for the lack of a second torp. IF launched so that you can take advantage of it. (that is late in turn)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:46 am: Edit

So now that I have played a lot of tourney games in the Gorn (going, like, 3-1 at totalcon, currently 3-0 in Rat17, and 1-2 in WL), I'm figuring that what kills the Gorn more than anything else is drones. At this point, I'm like "Give me a Tholian 8 times over any ship with 4 drone racks!". To be agressive, you need to fly through the drones, which take up phasers that you need to actually shoot folks with. Especially when the phasers keep not killing the drones (I've played 2

games in a row where it took 7-8 phasers to kill 4 type I drones...)

Possible answers to the drone issue:

-Fly around them. Going 26 helps, but you have to deal with them eventually, and if they are spread out a couple hexes, you still have to shoot some, usually with P1's to avoid accidentally not killing them. Losing 2 or 3 P1's out of a phaser volley that you are relying on to do some internals after you chase someone into a corner is very debilitating to a strike.

-Tractor them. That gets 2 of them, but prevents you from threating an anchor, and you still probably have to shoot some anyway.

-Make them weasel. Always good. But you usually don't get to make them weasel until you have already run through their drones.

-Use your own weasel. Sometimes convinient, but gives up the initiative.

Any ideas?

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:58 am: Edit

I'm thinking a combination of "fly around/tractor/WW" might be your best bet, especially if you can arrange a 4/14 split, with the acceleration to 14 happening early in the turn.

This tactic would probably require holding enough plasma deterrent to avoid being overrun at speed 14. So, if you're doing the 4/14 on turn 3, you'll probably need to launch the 2nd S-torp very late on turn 2, to keep the enemy running for as long as possible on turn 3.

Or you could launch the PPT on turn 2, and save the 2nd S-torp for turn 3.

Edit: Of course, vs Ken's WAX package this means you'll probably have to eat the F-torp and HB, since he can easily get FP arc when you're at spd 14. However, you should have some decent reinforcement if you're only spending ~12 on movement

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 11:22 am: Edit

If I were the Gorn, I'd scoot past them, then shoot them with my rear phasers. I'm fond of Ph-1s fired as Ph-3s, especially when the target is behind me, as it saves power for later firings, is only slighly less likely to destroy a I-M drone, and is very likely to ID a IV-M as such.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 11:43 am: Edit

Richard makes a good point. If you're pursuing aggressively, the RA ph-1's aren't

likely to bear on his ship anyway, so that gives you 2 ph-1's and 2 ph-3's every turn to fire at drones, assuming you can dodge past them.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Peter. Just think of what people do when they fight your Kzinti

Even the Hydran has this problem since you usually want to save the gats for the knife-fight. Solutions, (besides those mentioned above): 1- don't arm weasels, arm SSs - that's 2 drones killed during a key turn. 2- let some hit on rear/flank shields - if 2 type IMs hit your #5, is it really that big of a deal?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Yeah, the rear phasers as P3's often works out ok, but on SFBOL, every time I fire a P3 at a drone, I roll a 5 or a 6. Every time. It's crazy.

This being said, in my game last night (and in many other games), often those back phasers result in, like, another 8 internals after turning or HETing out of a pursuit, so if they avoid shooting drones, they do much more damage to the enemy.

The Gorn game I've been liking recently is something like:

T1: Fly quickly to middle of map. Launch a couple of S's. Sometimes 2 psuedoes. Sometimes 1 and 1. Occasionally both real. Let them get a R8 shot on a flank sheild, but make them eat the torps to get a R5 or better. Likely they turn off. I pursue.

T2: Chase them into a corner. In the corner, launch an S and an F to make them continue running or have to decel. Get as close as possible and shoot them on a rear sheild (preferably the one that was scuffed by the T1 torps) and fire 6P1's and a Bolt F. Do a dozen internals. Turn or HET out, firing the last couple phasers through the hole for a few more internals. Run off while they deal with the S and F.

T3+ Run, reload, occasionally launch envelopers when convinient (usually works best if they decelled on T2), occasionally over run with 3x F torps when they don't expect it, occasionally launch standard S's when it looks like it'll work well.

So far, this basic plan works pretty well in most situations (other than, ya know, other plasma ships), but ships with lots of drones tend to make it not work so well, due to the need to shoot drones.

We keep adjusting.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Peter. Just think of what people do when they fight your Kzinti >>

Thus the irony :-)

-Peter

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Remember if you are planning to waste two ph-1 on a drone to downfire as two ph-3. Alternately fire a ph-1 two impulses prior to impact (range 2-4) and then a ph-3 the impulse prior to impact if that is enough to guarantee a kill. (Poor man's Aegis). Tournament with no armored drones is the ideal environment for this.

If you plan to use Andy Palmer's SS vs. drones look up the rules for dummy Suicide shuttles. They might be a cheaper alternative.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure that a dummy suicide won't do any damage so won't destroy an incoming drone.

However, a SS armed 1-1-1 for a 6pt warhead will take out any drone it hits (in tourney).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Doug wrote: >>Remember if you are planning to waste two ph-1 on a drone to downfire as two ph-3. Alternately fire a ph-1 two impulses prior to impact (range 2-4) and then a ph-3 the impulse prior to impact if that is enough to guarantee a kill.>>

As there are very few type IV's in tournament play, and you usually know them when you see them (i.e. you either have time to lab them or they get launched at R1 where you have to assume they are the IV's), you are generally just better off firing the P1 as a P1 at R1, as it'll autokill.

This being said, where I often get hosed is when I'm cleaning up drones behind me at some long range near the end of the turn, where I'm unlikely to need to use my phasers offensively, and I downfire P1's as P3's to save power. And then I only roll 5's and 6's. All the time. It is crazy. I gotta just suck it up and fire the P1's...

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:58 pm: Edit

Peter. In the Gorn, one of my goals is to fire 4-5 ph-1s into the shield that just

ate the T1 torp launches. Les LeBlanc taught me that trick. It would seem to fit within your plan, but I see no mention of even R8 phaser fire that early.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 01:32 pm: Edit

My plan is not to make my ph-3s kill the drones one-for-one, but this is usually

what happens But against a disruptor armed drone ship the plan is basically to anchor him. And doing so before the Scatter-pack drones arrive. When they do, after your 70-80-100 pt A-strike, (can afford to)you weasel . This plan means I just have to handle 3-4 drones/turn on the approach. This leaves me a with a few phaser to shot at my enemy. (Remember that three to four phasers is enough if you allready did internals with plasma.)

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Besides mentioning a combined plan of all that you and others mentioned already Peter (fly past, trac 1, ra phasers a few, let 1 hit, keeping FH phasers for offensive duty and/or force a weasel or play fast weasel), I do have 1 additional suggestion.

Seperate him from his drones. If you can deal with a swarm at your leisure without the drone chucker following up due to distance, its so much easier. This is easily accomplished with EPT launches ime.

Plasma is expendable in the long term, drones are not.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 03:10 pm: Edit

IMO plasma need play long game mostly vs other plasma boats. Myself I se little need for it vs disr + drone ships that lack the deterent of the 'crunch'.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 03:26 pm: Edit

But one thing is true: one can't trade even blows with disruptor ships. You will loose more phasers than he will loose drone racks. Then you die.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >Peter. In the Gorn, one of my goals is to fire 4-5 ph-1s into the shield that just ate the T1 torp launches. Les LeBlanc taught me that trick. It would seem to fit within your plan, but I see no mention of even R8 phaser fire that early. >>

It is rare that anyone just eats the torps on T1. If there are two S Torps, even if it is unlikely that they are both real, very few people are just going to plow into them. If they do and at least one of them was real, I'll do everything in my power (including using the HET I often contingiently allocate on T1 for just such an occasion) to shoot through that hole--when that happens, though, I usually just win the game outright, so not much of an issue.

Usually what happens, though, is they shoot at 8 and peel off, getting hit by the torps in the corer of the map somewhere on T2 for 5-10 damage. Which, when the plan works, is usually enough to make the T2 phaser/Bolt hit significantly damaging, as it often isn't that difficult to shoot the same sheild.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Geoff wrote: >>Seperate him from his drones. If you can deal with a swarm at your leisure without the drone chucker following up due to distance, its so much easier. This is easily accomplished with EPT launches ime.>>

Sure--if you can make him run away from his drones, you can deal with them.

Where the problem comes in, however, is when I started this whole "Make the Gorn good" effort in earnest, I was trying the whole "launch envelopers and stay out of 8" plan, and not being particularly successful. After a great deal of discussion about around "why play the Gorn instead of the Romulan", most of the answers involved playing the Gorn agressively to take advantage of all the phasers and toughness (otherwise, you might as well be a Romulan). So I started doing that, and it works pretty well. Until there are enough drones in the way to blunt my phaser strikes, and we end up back where we started--why fly the Gorn when you can fly the Romulan, who doesn't really have problems with drones?

>>Plasma is expendable in the long term, drones are not.>>

Very valid. But what I found as a Gorn playing an EPT game is that on that down turn, where you don't have an EPT to launch, the drone ship is just going to move speed 31, eat your F torps, corner you, and mug you with the drones you can't seperate them from ('cause, ya know, the ship is at range 1 :-)

-Peter

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Peter,

Quote:

why fly the Gorn when you can fly the Romulan, who doesn't really have problems with drones?

I guess that really only applies to the TKE and the Orion. The other Romulans loose to much speed, and the initiative when they cloak. Really, drone ships with scatterpack should definitely launch it when facing a TFH or TKR.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Carl wrote: >>I guess that really only applies to the TKE and the Orion.>>

Yeah, a cloak slows the ship down, but if the choice is between cloaking out and dying, it can cloak out, where the Gorn doesn't have the choice.

The point is that a Romulan has a cloak to pull its old lady's car out of a bad area--on that turn when it is cornered and going to be mugged, it can cloak, where the Gorn can't. The cloak kills drones *and* keeps it from getting mauled on reload turns. And facilitates plasma ballet much better than a not cloak, 'cause on those turns when you are down significant amounts of plasma, your enemy can't just rely on storming you at 31 and cornering you, as you can just cloak to avoid too much getting killed.

Yes, often making someone cloak works to your advantage, but not making them cloak ('cause, ya know, they don't have a cloak) and instead making them deal with 6-12 drones usually works much more to your advantage than making them cloak.

>>The other Romulans loose to much speed, and the initiative when they cloak.>>

Sure. But if the choice is between:

A) Giving up initiative by cloaking and not getting creamed.

and

B) Not giving up initiative, but getting creamed by a lot of drones and you not having significant plasma to launch.

The Romulan can make that choice. The Gorn? Not so much.

No, the Romulan can't willy-nilly cloak out to shake 4 drones off its tail. But that it has a cloak makes launching a lot of drones often a losing proposition, and that it has a cloak means it is a lot more capable of playing a long range enveloper game and consequently is less succeptible to drones (as it isn't relying on much as shooting folks with phasers to hurt them as the Gorn is, as it is pitching envelopers from outside of R8 and cloaking if it gets cornered).

Thus, Romulans are much less bothered by drones than Gorns are.

-Peter

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:18 pm: Edit

Heresy!

Against Kzinti you have to separate him from his 10 T1 drones and reduce them. You can not chanrge through all 10 of them and expect to win.

If you can get R5 on most D&D you take it and bolt (4 torps and all P1s). Zin has no teeth with 3 drone racks 3 P1s and 3 disruptors. Good Zin won't give you this chance so all you have to do is take is disruptor shot and make him run from your EPT or SS and take care of drones.

Any other D&D is very prone to anchors. If you know you will get into the right range, it's OK to eat drones on flank shields if you will anchor.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:16 am: Edit

Peter, that sums why one, in the Gorn, can't play the EPT game vs drone users. Launching an EPT as opener is ok in that match-up, but after that you have to change to another strategy. The preferable one being the anchor of course.

BTW. I still think trading a scatterpack vs forcing a TFH or TKR to cloak is favourable for the drone user. I don't cloak often, and only when I really need to. Cloaking against anything, except perhaps the Aux, it's a pain. I often think it would be better for me to just use multiple weasels and use the 18-20 pts of power for useful stuff like rearming weapons and refill batteries.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:36 am: Edit

Ralph wrote: >>Against Kzinti you have to separate him from his 10 T1 drones and reduce them. You can not chanrge through all 10 of them and expect to win.>>

You are kidding, right?

I was never talking about charging through 10 Kzinti drones. Mostly I'm just talking about attacking a ship that can launch 4 drones at you (WYN, Shark, Kzinti who has already lost SP. Heck, the Klingon over 2 turns is often a drag, really...)

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:42 am: Edit

Carl wrote: >>Peter, that sums why one, in the Gorn, can't play the EPT game vs drone users.>>

And thus my point. You can't play the EPT at range game as the Gorn vs drone ships. So you generally need to be aggressive and rely on phasers to shoot your enemy. And the drones in the way take up phasers. Which is why I said that the Romulan is less bothered by drones.

>>BTW. I still think trading a scatterpack vs forcing a TFH or TKR to cloak is favourable for the drone user.>>

Sometimes. But also, sometimes you are better off making someone who can't cloak weasel, 'cause after the weasel dies, you can shoot them effectively. The cloaked ship, not so much.

I realize that often using a cloak puts one off ones game. But trying to make out that having to cloak to shake 8 drones off the map (as opposed to shooting them or weaseling that everyone else has to do) is somehow a terrible burden that the Romulan is forced to bear is just silly.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:07 am: Edit

Another benefit of the cloak is that you can afford to whiff with an alpha-bolt. If you whiff with the Gorn, you're in big trouble.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Not silly, Peter, but a good use of drones that otherwise would just be unloaded from the SP to be used as spares. Sure, they make it possible for the drone ship to launch drones another 1-2 turns, but the game is usually over long before that. One way or another; and if the Rom was forced to cloak the edge could go to the drone ship.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Carl wrote: >Not silly, Peter, but a good use of drones that otherwise would just be unloaded from the SP to be used as spares.>

No, no. What I was calling silly was trying to somehow make out that having the cloak was a terrible burden that the Romulan was hindered by, and that having to cloak to avoid drones (or just getting smeared on a reload turn) was somehow a disadvantage of the Romulan.

Making a Romulan cloak by launching a lot of drones at it isn't silly. And sometimes even a good idea :-)

>One way or another; and if the Rom was forced to cloak the edge could go to the drone ship.>

Sure. But that the Romulan *can* cloak isn't somehow a disadvantage of the Romulan compared to the Gorn, which seemed to be the point you were making earlier.

-Peter

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 01:15 pm: Edit

No, having a cloak is not an disadvantage. EXCEPT that we pay for it by not having that massive hull, dual shuttle bay, extra

phaser Still, Romulans do okay. (But IMO thats because plasma is so darn good!!!)

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Peter,

Quote:

So you generally need to be aggressive and rely on phasers to shoot your enemy.

Not really in my experience. Just enough that you, with the plasma and phasers, do two volleys of decent damage.

Quote:

And the drones in the way take up phasers. Which is why I said that the Romulan is less bothered by drones.

What you are actually saying is that the Romulan that use the EPT ballet has less problem than a Gorn, that use a more aggressive strategy, because of the cloak. Of course, if the Roms use the same strategy as the Gorn then they have the same problem handling drones.

A comparison with the TFH shows that off centre-line both the TFH and the Gorn got 4 p-1s and one ph-3. On the oblique the TFH got 5 ph-1s and two ph-3s. Same for the Gorn except that it has only one ph-3.

I think both ships have about equal resources to handle drones. I can't say I have heard much complaints from Roms about the drones stoping them from doing the Anchor (but I am one of the least experienced SFB Players

on SFBOL, so what do I know? ) I don't think it's because the Roms got the cloak to save them from a failed anchor attempt; From what it appears you either succced, or loose the game.

Drones also have a serious drawback: they don't stay with the launching ship like fighters can do. This means that if the drone ship want to avoid getting close to you, the drones (M speed) will automaticaly become separated from the drone ship. The drone ship can hold it's drone launches of course, but that is only to your advantage.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Carl wrote: >No, having a cloak is not an disadvantage. EXCEPT that we pay for it by not having that massive hull, dual shuttle bay, extra phaser >

Now we are getting somewhere. My point here, in the end, is that the cloak, generally speaking, is a trade up from the massive hull, dual shuttle bay, and extra phasers.

>Still, Romulans do okay. (But IMO thats because plasma is so darn good!!!)>

See, I don't think it is *plasma* that is so darn good. It is plasma *plus* a cloak that is so dard good, as having that cloak:

-Means you can hide on reload turns when you get stuck in a corner.

-Means 'cause you can hide, you can play an overall less agressive game as your opponent can't just charge and eat torps on reload turns, as you can cloak out till you reload.

-Means that drones are less of a bother, overall, 'cause you can play less agressively and can cloak when necessary.

If Plasma was so darn good, then Gorns would be winning all over the place :-)

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Carl also wrote: >Not really in my experience. Just enough that you, with the plasma and

phasers, do two volleys of decent damage.>

To do those two volleys of decent damage, with the Gorn, you really need to be pretty agressive, again, due to the lack of cloak--you need an anchor (which requires incredibly agressive play) or you need to follow up a plasma hit with a good close range phaser and bolt strike (which also requires agressive play)or you need a very sold R5 centerline bolt alpha (which also requires agressive play). 'Cause without the cloak, that turn where you don't have S-Torps is the turn where you are going to be chased down and mauled in a corner somewhere.

>What you are actually saying is that the Romulan that use the EPT ballet has less problem than a Gorn, that use a more aggressive strategy, because of the cloak.>

Correct.

> Of course, if the Roms use the same strategy as the Gorn then they have the same problem handling drones. >

The Roms don't have to use the same strategy as the Gorn, as it has a cloak. To be sucessful in a Gorn, experience and history has shown that you need to be agressive--trying to play a long range EPT game is much less successful than in a Romulan, for reasons detailed (i.e. lack of cloak to cover your arse in tight spots), but even if the Romulan does play agressively, it *still* has the cloak to make up for errors (as Jude mentioned above, if the Gorn goes for a R5 bolt Alpha and rolls poorly, the game is pretty much over. The Romulan can still make a game of it by falling back on a cloak while it reloads).

>I think both ships have about equal resources to handle drones.>

Sure. But the Romulan generally doesn't need to do the same thing--it doesn't need to rush a drone ship for a close range phaser strike or anchor, as it can play the long and patient game that the Gorn can't really afford to do.

>I can't say I have heard much complaints from Roms about the drones stoping them from doing the Anchor>

'Cause their opponent's can't really afford to put a lot of drones on the map at any given time, as the Romulan can just turn off and cloak out if it seems reasonable. If the Gorn sees 8 drones, it has to either shoot those drones or weasel. If the Romulan sees 8 drones, it can shake them with the cloak, while avoiding too much damage in return.

Using drones against a Romulan (of which I have infinite experience :-) requires parsing them out judiciously, as even in the Kzinti, it is easy to run out against the Romulan, and losing 8-10 of them to a cloak is often a losing proposition.

Against the Gorn, generally, the game is going to be over before T6 one way or the other. And making the Gorn weasel just means it is that much easier to catch him when he is on a low plasma turn.

>Drones also have a serious drawback: they don't stay with the launching ship like fighters can do. This means that if the drone ship want to avoid getting close to you, the drones (M speed) will automaticaly become separated from the drone ship.>

Sure. But again, where the problem tends to come in, at least in the Gorn, is when you have expended some resources to gain position (i.e. chased him into the corner with some plasmas) and are trying to get a good shot on his flank sheilds (or trying to get an anchor). Sure, you can turn off and run from the 4-8 drones you have to go through to get there and kill them far from his ship, but then you are giving up the positional advantage that you spent resources on, and the drone ship can get new drones on the map much faster than you can get more plasma on the map.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Peter: I don't think the Gorn's advantages (Ctr Hull, dual bays) force it to adopt a more aggressive strategy. (e.g. anchors, bolting, and close-range phaser shots)

On the contrary, I think the Gorn is better-suited to defensive games where it hangs back at moderate range - thereby minimizing the penalty for TM D - and strings out its plasma piecemeal.

I remember one game I played against Kevin Block-Schwenk's Gorn a few years ago. Most of the time he was at speed 12 with a moderate brick, lobbing EPT's, pseudos, and the occasional F-torp. Eventually, I simply had no good shields left, but I couldn't really afford to overrun, because the Gorn's durability would have prevented me from disabling it in one pass. I remember thinking afterwards that this was the ideal Gorn gameplan: launch just enough plasma to keep the enemy running, but maintain enough onboard to ensure that you'll give as good as you get, in the event of an overrun.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Sounds like Romulans that use chuck and duck with EPTs, and the cloak powered.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Yep, the difference being that whenever I managed to get range 8, the Gorn was firing phasers back. Because of his slow speed, I was able to get FA and fire standard disruptors almost every turn. However, his reinforcement made DF basically a 1:1 exchange, and the small amounts of periodic plasma damage (because you can't phaser it all) tipped the balance in his favour. He wasn't interested in cornering me with plasma; just keeping me away from his ship (and

making me spend my energy on movement instead of overloads).

Of course, this was before I became reckless and developed a palate for hot gas, so the game might be different if we played it again today.

By Michael Powers (Mtpowers) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Jude: >this was before I became reckless and developed > a palate for hot gas, so the game might be > different if we played it again today.

That sounds about right, and more in line with what those above have been saying. The various TCs seem to have been balanced around alpha strikes at range four, and that's not what a Gorn wants to do. A Gorn wants to keep the game at medium range and have a steady stream of plasma and phaser fire, to wear down the opponent in preparation for a final coup de grace alpha. (The fact that it has such all-around arcs seems to support this.) But that means you need enough plasma to keep your opponent from just saying "hey, if I eat the plasma, it won't hurt me bad enough that the Gorn will kill me with phasers." Maybe the Gorn should be based on a BCH, with three S-torps...?

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Bite your tongue.

Any 3xS-torp ship will break the tournament, unless you prohibit said ship from using EPTs. And no, not "can't use an EPT from the 3rd S-torp" - if it can EPT, EPT, and have an S+fastload on it's "Off" turn, that's enough to keep up an EPT ballet indefinitely, while holding enough firepower to severely punish the overrun.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Jude wrote: >Peter: I don't think the Gorn's advantages (Ctr Hull, dual bays) force it to adopt a more aggressive strategy. (e.g. anchors, bolting, and close-range phaser shots)>

Yeah, see, that is funny, 'cause the last time this discussion came up (started by, like, me, 3 or 4 months ago..:-) everyone who responded to my comments (Ralph, Ken Lin, Bill Albert, whoever) about how the Gorn kept getting mauled when I tried a less aggressive, Romulan-esque strategy was that the Gorn had to play like a Gorn, not like a Romulan, which meant being more agressive so as to take advanatge of its strengths (i.e. more phasers and better internals).

>On the contrary, I think the Gorn is better-suited to defensive games where it hangs back at moderate range - thereby minimizing the penalty for TM D - and strings out its plasma piecemeal.>

I have found this to be pretty much exactly not the case--the EPT game generally

results in the Gorn getting cornered on T3 and totally mangled, due to the lack of a claok. I mean, like, yeah, sometimes it works, and in some specific match ups it might even be a good idea, but in general. On the other hand, I found that when I played a more aggressive game (or at least a more agresisve opening), the Gorn did much better--take a R8 shot on a side sheild, chase them into the corner,and shoot them a lot with phasers and maybe a bolt here and there while continuing to force them into the corner or to weasel with more plasmas, and the Gorn is doing pretty well.

Where this seems to not work so much is against an opponent with 4 drone racks, though, and the opponent with 4 drone racks seems to be the ones that are best suited to run you into that corner and mug you on T3 when you try the long range game. Conundrum.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:41 pm: Edit

Jude also wrote: >Of course, this was before I became reckless and developed a palate for hot gas, so the game might be different if we played it again today. >

Yeah, see, I think this is probably correct. Assuming you were a Lyran, you outrun the first S torp, run out the second some, and be willing to run into some F's and gamble on a possible psuedo on your #2/6 to overrun him when you have ESGs and overloads. You'll both take a bunch of damage, but on the next turn, you can still fire disruptors and P1's, where he just has P1's and maybe a plasma which you likely can weasel.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:07 pm: Edit

I only have a vague memory of the previous Gorn discussions, but when I think of the Gorn using its size to advantage, I imagine stringing out plasma for 2 turns, and then saying "bring it!" on turn 3. After all, you have a potential 60 points of plasma available, and the opponent most likely has plotted high speed with few heavy weapons.

A high-risk, aggressive opening move doesn't really play into the Gorn's strengths, IMO. Failed anchor attempts, or missed bolts, will leave you worse-off than a Rom in the same situation.

Also, a high-speed pursuit makes it hard to utilize your full phaser array against drones. If you drifted around the center of the map, you would have no problem toggling offside phasers into arc for point-defense, and with 10 phasers, you should still have some to shoot the enemy with.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Regarding the turn 3 overrun: if the Gorn takes the fight to the enemy t3, he should be able to fly past him and avoid finishing the turn in FA and/or range 8 at the start of turn 4. Yes, he'll probably take some internals turn 3, but he should be able to inflict some in return. In my game vs Kevin for instance, I could have overrun him turn 3, but I would have only had 2 ESG's (minus 12 dmg for shutts) and 6 ph-1's. In return, I would have eaten 1-2 plasma F's (3 if he decided to fastload) and 6 ph-1's. Plus, he had trac/reinforcement, and I didn't. With the Gorn's size, that's not a favourable exchange for the Lyran, since I'm not even cornering him for the start of turn 4. He's simply flying past me at spd 12, waving and smiling, out of my FA.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Jude wrote: >A high-risk, aggressive opening move doesn't really play into the Gorn's strengths, IMO.>

I'm not talking about a high risk opening. Just an agresisve one. Launch 2S's on T1 and convince him to turn off. Chase him into the corner to deliver a flank shot of 6P1 and a bolt F. Launch another S and an F to keep him running into the corner and possibly weaseling. If it looks like it will work, HET out and use the rear phasers to do another 8 or so internals. Works well in a lot of situations. Except when there are a lot of drones.

>Also, a high-speed pursuit makes it hard to utilize your full phaser array against drones. If you drifted around the center of the map, you would have no problem toggling offside phasers into arc for point-defense, and with 10 phasers, you should still have some to shoot the enemy with.>

I've never had any trouble shooting down all the drones in a high speed pursuit. It is just that when you get there, most of your phasers are spent having shot up drones. And the whole concept of "the offside" phaser isn't really one that I'm seeing a lot of--I've got 8 P1's. If I'm not shooting them all at the enemy, again, I'd be better off as a Romulan. Getting 6 P1 in arc at R4 or 5 is rarely difficult when chasing someone into a corner. And it is often perfectly possible to get a 7th into arc of the same down sheild on the next impulse simply by turning, or, again, if the situation is good, HETing to get both back P1's in the same sheild. This is where the drones become a problem. Shooting them eats up the phasers. You can tractor one or two (but if you get two, your opponent suddenly becomes much less concerened about keeping the range open), which is good. You might be able to SS shuttle a couple if you have a good movement situation. 2x P3's get possibly 2 of them (but in my recent SFBOL experience, those 2 P3's tend to blow up none of them...). After that, you start losing a lot of damage potential that you need to have available.

But then, you could always avoid all of this by being a Romulan :-)

-Peter

By Brook J. Villa (Brookie) on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:57 pm: Edit

The gorn needs an upgrade already!!! How about a 3rd tractor beam? Just

throwing something out there!!! Let's discuss.

-Brook

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 05:15 am: Edit

Peter, Carl, I was not recomending playing an ept ballet. I said that seperating the ship from the drones was an alternative means to dealing with swarms, and an ept was good for this.

I would advocate an ept first turn, then chase with standards and the rearming S tube. Why use real/pseudos from 2 tubes if 1 will do?

Later epts can be made as the situation warrants, but not as part of an automatic, 2/3 turns arming ept ballet plan.

(btw peter I applaud your efforts to play in a less popular TC. Puts a different spin on the game doesn't it?)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 07:44 am: Edit

Geoff wrote: >Peter, Carl, I was not recomending playing an ept ballet. I said that seperating the ship from the drones was an alternative means to dealing with swarms, and an ept was good for this. >

Very reasonable, but still, where I am actually running into the problems is when I am chasing someone down--if I try and catch them, I likely have to run through 2 turns of drones, which is a huge drag. If they launch drones early on T1, you can seperate them and deal with them on T1 when you don't need the phasers. But if they launch late on T1, you get to run through 2 chunks of drones with 1 turn of phasers. While you could after they launch the second volley of drones, launch more plasma and turn off just to deal with the drones, you are giving up an awful lot to deal with a few drones, and you've probably been shot a bunch too.

Like when I'm flying the Kzinti vs a BP ship, I don't launch drones on T1 till it is apparent that my opponent is charging me into the corner, and usually I'll hold launch till the very end of the turn--make them shoot the T1 drones on T2, and if they keep coming, makie them shoot the T2 drones also on T2.

>I would advocate an ept first turn, then chase with standards and the rearming S tube. Why use real/pseudos from 2 tubes if 1 will do?>

I'm currently digging the power curve that comes from holding standards--you can move really fast, hold special shuttles, and *still* have power left over for contingient HET or tractors. With the T1 EPT, you have to give stuff up--only 1 shuttle, or less movement, and often no AFC on T1, leaving you without many options if things go badly for whatever reason. Although I am wondering if launching 1xS torp on T1 might work just as well as two. When you launch 2, generally, the gamble is whether none are real or one is real, but there is always the small possibility that both are real, so folks are generally unwilling just to run into them (and shooting phasers into them is kind of a gamble too). On the other hand, 1 standard S torp is likely to just result in getting shot by a couple P3's and taken on a flank sheild.

-Peter

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:44 am: Edit

Peter: I believe the opening move you described is "risky" in two ways:

1. you're relying on an F-bolt hitting to score internals. 2. you're emptying all your plasma tubes on T1-2.

With this strategy, you need to score some good damage on T2, because you're unable to fight on T3. In other words, if your T2 attack fails to slow the opponent down, then you'll be cornered on T3.

Obviously it's working for you so far (except for the drone thing), but I still think it's risky for a cloakless plasma ship to unload all its plasma on T2.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:15 am: Edit

Jude -

Peters opening is very interesting to me. He chases into a corner on turn 1, follows in on turn 2,

then, late on turn 2 (I guess 20 or so) he bolts 6p1, and an f torp hets away, and drops 50 points from the other side. If the player decides to ww the 50 points he will not be in position to on the reload turn. If he decides to charge, he will eat 50 (or at least 45) and take the first set of internals (or use his entire phaser array to shoot down the f, which will make it tough to chage on turn 3).

The Gorn may not have done internals if the bolt misses, and the opponent used his phasers on the plasma, but if that happens the Gorn can runn all of turn 3, and will have one shaky turn on turn 4 (when he can have an enveloper to hit those 2 down shields, and a fastload), before the rest of the plasma comes on line on turn 5.

Like any other approach it has risks, but I think it is worthwhile to have something like this in your arsenal. This approach is dificult to set up, and clearly does not work against a Hydran (or perhaps any ship with 2 gats). I do believe using 1 enveloper on turn 1 is better than 1 psuedo and 1 regular torp, but there is 6 extra power available if just holding a loaded S, adn that should not be discounted.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:46 am: Edit

It's been working pretty well--even against Hydrans. If you can chase somone into the corner, and them running from 2 S torps from T1 usually does a pretty good job and score some reasonable internals on T2, it works pretty well. Getting the internals usually isn't that difficult--if the first real S hits for 5-10 damage on a flank, that is often 5-10 more internals 'cause it isn't that hard to hit the same sheild (if there was no real first S, then you have an extra S to work with).

Late on T2, you have them in a corner. Launch 50 that, unless they are moving, like, 31 all turn, is pretty much certain to either hit or force a weasel. Shoot them with 6 P1 and a Bolt F. Likely do a dozen internals, possibly followed by a second volley of a few more from rear phasers if it is workable. They are now either stopping to weasel the 50, or eating it and likely taking another volley of internals. In either case, I have most of the map to run on T3, but if they stop to weasel, I'm usually pretty solid, as I don't really need to run T3--I can move, like, speed 12, stay out of OL range, and reload stuff.

When T4 rolls around, I likely have an enveloper to toss out and a fast load if the press the issue, but if they press the issue, they are eating an enveloper, likely through 2 down sheilds ('cause if they can press the issue, they probably didn't weasel the 50 on T2).

It is all pretty reasonable *except* against ships with 4 drone racks.

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 02:30 pm: Edit

What about Orions? And I hope you don't do this against Feds ;-)

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Bill: I'm not saying it's a "bad" tactic, just that it sounds better-suited to a Romulan (who can cloak after dumping all its plasma) than for a Gorn.

Peter: with this approach, I can understand why you're hesitant to speedy-weasel the drones on t3, since your plasma tubes are empty and you will get overrun. In that case, I would either opt for the dodge-around / rear phaser hose, or else try something more conservative like the KBS strategy I described earlier.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Marcus wrote: >What about Orions?

You got me. I have no idea how to fight Orions. Except, like, "don't get tractored at R2 when your whole plan revolves around not getting tractored at R2..."

:-)

> And I hope you don't do this against Feds ;-)

Works fine against Feds. I give them the R8 shot, but make them eat plasma to take a R5 shot. If they take the R8 and roll average, I do just fine. If they hit with an extra photon, it is an uphill fight, but not impossible. If they hit with 1, I'm gold. If they jackpot, I lose. But that is always a possibility in any ship.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Jude wrote: >Bill: I'm not saying it's a "bad" tactic, just that it sounds better-suited to a Romulan (who can cloak after dumping all its plasma) than for a Gorn.>

Yeah, see, the other tactics don't seem to work so well for Gorn (when was the last time you played as a Gorn and won, or were beaten by a Gorn? How did that game work?). Being agressive to take advantage of the extra phasers and better internals seems to work pretty well for the Gorn. But drones, again, are a big problem. And the ships with the 4 drone racks are also the ones that do really well against the less aggressive strategies. Thus, the conundrum.

>Peter: with this approach, I can understand why you're hesitant to speedy-weasel the drones on t3, since your plasma tubes are empty and you will get overrun.>

I think we are kind of talking past each other here. The drones aren't a problem on T3. The drones are a problem when I am chasing someone into a corner. Given the perfect situation (T1 they run from plasma, T2, I corner them, shoot them, and launch more plasma, T3 I run), I'm not worried about drones on T3 (heck, regularly, I'll not even power AFC on T3...). Depending on what is going on with my opponent, T4 might result in me weaseling after pitching out an EPT if needed to shake some drones (and avoid too much abuse).

See, again, where the significant problem with drones comes in is when you want to agressively pursue and phaser blast them. The drones can be dealt with, but they take up too much firepower. And the conundrum is that trying other strategies against such ships (i.e. 4 drone rack) tends to end with failure, as they

are the ones best suited for going 31 all turn, cornering you, and mugging you to death.

See, I have a lot of experience *against* Gorns in my Kzinti. And lemme tell you--the Gorns that peicemeal plasma, or try an EPT game? They generally die pretty handily. The ones that are super agressive arethe ones that make a game of it--sometimes they get really lucky on bolts and can win that way, sometimes I screw up and they don't have much trouble dealing with the drones (usually due to bad manuvering on my part) and they can get a mostly painless anchor. But really, I can't remember the last time I lost to a Gorn in the Kzinti (Romulans? Sure. Gorns? Never). But the ones that were close were the result of super agressive play, not EPTs or string launches.

-Peter

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Peter,

Speed is more important than anything else when dealing with medium drones. One thing you must avoid in a Gorn when facing a lot of drones, is speed 24 due to when it has breaks in relation to speed 20. 26 should be the minimum high speed when you are close to drones. I ignore most medium drones as far as my phasers/tractors are concerned. I find myself lying around with 6 (8+ if Kzinti) drones on my tail. It does restrict my movement, but my plasma in bound evens things up. Interesting thing about this is that most D&Ds will have to drop tracking in order to launch drones as anchor prevention. Making your opponent use a WW is even better way of killing his drones.

Best Kzinti opening against a Gorn is so send 10 fast drones timed to hit on T1. Obviously there is a risk of a WW, but an aggressive player will try and fail to wade through drones.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 08:48 pm: Edit

===

I wish MY Kzinti TC had 10 fast drones.

By Ray Belanger (Rug) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:21 pm: Edit

And the ability to launch them all on T1.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Ralph wrote: >Speed is more important than anything else when dealing with medium drones. One thing you must avoid in a Gorn when facing a lot of drones, is speed 24 due to when it has breaks in relation to speed 20. 26 should be the minimum high speed when you are close to drones. I ignore most medium drones as far as my phasers/tractors are concerned. I find myself lying around with 6 (8+ if Kzinti)

drones on my tail. It does restrict my movement, but my plasma in bound evens things up. Interesting thing about this is that most D&Ds will have to drop tracking in order to launch drones as anchor prevention. Making your opponent use a WW is even better way of killing his drones. >

Hmm. All very reasonable. I'm thinking I just need to be gutsier in the running around the drones, and figure that if I make them weasel, I'm home free. I just need to practice the speed 26 drone skunking.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:59 pm: Edit

I've found spd 28 to be very good for dodging spd 20 drones. There are no impulses where I miss a move, and the drones don't. Also, when Ken Lin beat me this weekend in our RAT game, he played very conservatively. A conservative Gorn was very difficult to approach safely.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 07:46 am: Edit

Biran wrote: >I've found spd 28 to be very good for dodging spd 20 drones.>

But without the ability to HET. Man. I want those 2 extra warp engines :-)

>Also, when Ken Lin beat me this weekend in our RAT game, he played very conservatively. A conservative Gorn was very difficult to approach safely.>

How did that game work? What happened? I'm figuring you were an Orion, and to this day, the only Orion game I have played in a Gorn was against you, and we know how that turned out...

-Peter

-Peter

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 07:59 am: Edit

Ah, if only they'd sanctioned the TCM instead of TCC. 2 extra warp (2 less APR) and losing a ph-1 to a pair of ph-3 helps a lot with drones.

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:46 am: Edit

Peter: to be honest, I haven't played a huge number of games with the Gorn, although I have gone through a couple of "Gorn phases" where I played it quite a bit. I didn't play as conservatively as KBS, nor as aggressively as you. However, I don't believe I've ever started a turn without having at least an F-torp available. And my Gorn W/L record is at least 50%+. Perhaps one of these days, you and I can hook up online for a Gorn/droner game.

As for the T3 weasel, I realize now that T3 isn't where your problem is (after

understanding that you're willing to corner dodge T3). See, I didn't understand this before you explained your opening tactic.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:48 am: Edit

Peter, hearing your tactic described it's easy to see why think drones is a problem. Obviously changing tactic is the way around that problem; If you have chased someone into the corner, why not go all the way? The Gorn got the neccessary protection for batteries and shuttles to make it possible. Actually firing phasers and bolting, like you described, is a tactic used in one of my first tourney games against a Klingon. I was uncertain of the risk I would take getting closer so I decided to bolt instead. (much to my opponents suprise. His 15 pt brick was placed on another shield, but he never got an opportunity to tac that into arc) (no offense) but what I mean is that maybe you need to move on in your learning of the Gorn? To dare go all the way, so to speak?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:19 am: Edit

Jude wrote: >Peter: to be honest, I haven't played a huge number of games with the Gorn, although I have gone through a couple of "Gorn phases" where I played it quite a bit. I didn't play as conservatively as KBS, nor as aggressively as you. However, I don't believe I've ever started a turn without having at least an F-torp available.>

Yeah, see, generally, T2 either results in my opponent being stopped from weaseling (which is good, as I have time to reload) or significantly damaged from getting hit by the second volley of plasma and probably still mostly in the corner, giving me all of T3 to run and reload. Assuming high agression on the part of my opponent on T3, I'll be cornered at the start of T4, but by then I usually have an enveloper to pitch out and either do serious damage to them or scare them off till the rest of my plasma comes back on line on T5.

> And my Gorn W/L record is at least 50%+. Perhaps one of these days, you and I can hook up online for a Gorn/droner game.>

That'd be fun. I'll see what my shcedule looks like.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:29 am: Edit

Carl wrote: >Peter, hearing your tactic described it's easy to see why think drones is a problem. Obviously changing tactic is the way around that problem;>

Clearly. This being said, what I was looking for originally (ya know, other than some interesting tactics discussion) was mostly what Ralph handed me--be willing to fly around the drones at 26 and leave them on the map chasing you, hoping to

either make my opponent weasel and kill the drones that way, or outrun them long enough to weasel them on T3 or T4 as necessary.

>(no offense) but what I mean is that maybe you need to move on in your learning of the Gorn? To dare go all the way, so to speak?>

Heck. An anchor is always a possibility. But a risky one, and if it fails, you tend to lose the game. So while I leave the opportunity open, I generally prefer less risk intensive plans. I generally find going for an anchor when my opponent isn't really thinking I will (like when I only have fast loads or something) tends to work much better than the T2 charge and anchor--when they see you coming full engines blazing on T1 and pushing you into the corner, on T2, they usually have tractors powered and are ready to ram the wall if you get too close.

You certainly have some viable ideas floating around here, but I notice that you always play Romulan :-)

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:32 am: Edit

Troy wrote: >Ah, if only they'd sanctioned the TCM instead of TCC. 2 extra warp (2 less APR) and losing a ph-1 to a pair of ph-3 helps a lot with drones.>

Yeah, I saw the home-brew SSD for that floating around somewhere, and while it certainly looks very potent, I suspect it is on the upper end of super optimized, as TC's go. But I would like those 4 P3's...

:-)

-Peter

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:22 am: Edit

I have never seen a discussion where the Gorn uses, EPT, TWIN f launch (cneterline) with the second S/EPT as a means to keep them from rushing.

Are 2 f's launched together enough to keep the baddies away? 40 should crack a shield and make the follow up ept(s) more efficient.

It seems to me (a lurker, not an expert) that you HAVE to pair the f's to keep them from being eaten on different shields and ignored...

By Jude Hornborg (Von_Nasty) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:29 am: Edit

Michael: I think that could work if you pursue closely and launch the F's so that they will hit in the 6-10 bracket. The trick is to centerline the opponent while maintaining an intercept course. Usually, pinning someone against the wall requires leading with your #2/6 shield.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:53 am: Edit

Peter, I got pointy ears. If I fly the Gorn someday it would only be in order to find out if my playing style is as Gornish as I suspect it to be.

Yes, the surprise anchor is the best, but when you fly a plasma ship everyone keeps in mind it is a possible tactic for you. So there is not so much surprise to it as I would like. Still, the last two ISC players I fought got anchored by me. (everyone know BP anchors ISC, right? Except Kemaris who thought I would be doing the EPT ballet

) Funny that, but since BP have so good energy curves they are likely to succeed even when the opponent expect you knocking on his door. The only time I have failed an anchor(well ok, you didn't resist my attempt) was against you. But since the game was over before my attempt it was more of a

consolation attack. IIRC I succeed in crippling you So, what experience do you have in faled anchor attempts, and what do you think caused the failures?

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Getting both F-torps in the same hex is an issue of maneuver, and while it's pretty much impossible when you're running away (target would have to be centerlined at launch), you can do it when chasing someone when they're off your 2/6 shield if you time the first launch right before a turn in the same direction.

e.g.: Target off of #2 shield, or 1/2-way between 1 and 2.

Imp X, launch RS F-torp (p1), facing your #2.

Imp X+1, you move ,turning right. p1 moves straight - into the same hex, same facing.

Imp X+1, launch LS F-torp (p2), facing your #1 or #6.

Imp X+2, p2 moves straight; p1 moves either straight or turns, depending on facing of p2 at launch.

That's doable.

If you can chase your enemy into a corner, I highly reccomend it.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Carl wrote: >The only time I have failed an anchor(well ok, you didn't resist my attempt) was against you. But since the game was over before my attempt it was more of a

consolation attack. IIRC I succeed in crippling you>

Well, ya know, with your explosion :-)

>So, what experience do you have in faled anchor attempts, and what do you think caused the failures?>

Me guessing wrong. Usually it comes from, like, being near the middle of the map and trying to figure if they are going to run or starcastle, and them doing the exact opposite of what I guess--I plot to run, they stop or I plot for stop and they run. And even failing that, someone with a good bunch in tractor I didn't expect or someone willing to hit the wall and weasel when I get to R1 to drag out the engagement, maybe over the turn break.

Granted, I don't try for total anchor that much, so I don't fail that much :-)

-Peter

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I have an excellent idea...

No, I don't do Gorns, sorry. But interesting conversation. My question is how comforatable to you feel about anchoring a Kzinti? Wouldn't that be... painful?

Peter, as a Kzinti, do you fear a Gorn anchor and what do you do about it?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Marcus wrote: >Peter, as a Kzinti, do you fear a Gorn anchor and what do you do about it?>

Not so much, but an anchor attempt is usually what actually makes the Gorn have a chance, as opposed to just getting killed.

Assuming the Gorn just flies at me whole hog to try and anchor, I'll take, like, a R4 shot on his #1 with P1's and disruptors (maybe 2 OL and 2 std) and run away, launching 4 drones late on T1. If he keeps coming, he has to fly through 4 T1 drones and then 4 T2 drones (and as much as I'd like to think the medium T1 drones are easy to fly around, they really aren't, and often the 1 hex you lose due to slipping in one direction or the other keeps you from getting to R1 to successfully tractor), which might be fast and/or type IVs. While pursuing with a mangled #1. If the Gorn gets too close, I shoot through his #1 for some internals, and try to break away.

This being said, again, I can't remember any games I have lost to a Gorn in the Kzinti in recent memory (i.e. the last 5 years or so). I have certainly lost to Romulans. But not Gorns.

-Peter

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Peter,

I haven’t lost to a Klingon in 10 years (a year ago). Then I started to brag about it. Then lost 3 in a row.

As for FF launch, might as well bolt them at R15. Fs are launched when you know your opponent will eat them at R 6 or less. First of all they are 100% real and they have practical limit of 10. Target at high speed will simply turn and slip away till they hit at R11 on a rear shield. Then he turns in and runs into you.

There are other considerations; power curve goes down when recharging FF (stays the same when charging SS), close range deterrent: 40 from Fs + 20 from a fast load nets more damage at R1 than 4OL photons.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Ralph wrote: >I haven’t lost to a Klingon in 10 years (a year ago). Then I started to brag about it. Then lost 3 in a row.>

Yeah, see, thsi difference is that the Klingon is a *good* ship...

:-)

-Peter

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 06:28 pm: Edit

I probably ran the Gorn 20-30 times last year (1/3 of my games). Lessons learned:

F-torps should never be launched to discourage pursuit because they do the exact opposite.

Your turn 1-2 objective, is to drive your opponent against the side of the map on turn 2, launch S+F so they hit for 45, and escape.

Your opponent will shoot overloads at you by turn 4-5. Make it happen on your terms.

Taking a single volley of 10-15 internals can be a fair trade for 3 down enemy

shields.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Bill wrote: >Your turn 1-2 objective, is to drive your opponent against the side of the map on turn 2, launch S+F so they hit for 45, and escape.>

Yeah, see, this is the main strategy I like to go for (excapt, ya know, against other BP. And Tholians. And, well, I have no idea how to fight Orions...), and it tends to work well. But still, the drones that get in the way are a huge drag.

-Peter

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 10:02 pm: Edit

If the sp has deployed, don't fire p1's offensively until all 6 of its drones are disposed of. Launch S+F+F to try to force a ww. Be careful you don't get tractored.

Never envelope on turn 2 if the sp deployed on turn 1. You will need the power to run away.

Otherwise, it should only take 2-3 p1 and the p3's to kill all 4 turn 1 drones, leaving you 5p1's to shoot at your opponent. Turn 2 drones can be tractored and ss'd if need be.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:28 am: Edit

You use suicide shuttles to kill drones? I had heard that a lot of shuttles were useful, just surprised to hear that this was why.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:51 am: Edit

I seldom use it as my primary way to kill drones. But each ss autokills a drone (unless it is killed itself). This tactic can be a lifesaver when short on phasers.

In the note above, I only do this against speed 32 drones I can't outrun. When fighting drone armed ships, always have a plan for dealing with their drones. ED'ing to launch a ww is seldom a plan, and most likely a futile act of desperation.

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:33 pm: Edit

I've used SSs against drones before, and sometimes charged extra SSs at 1 point per turn (6 point warhead), because they will perfectly simulate an 18-point SS and still kill a type-IV drone dead.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Except that when a six-pt SS is used to kill a drone, the warhead of the SS is known.

More appropriately, a six-pt SS perfectly simulates an 18-pt SS when it is destroyed without hitting it's target.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 05:42 pm: Edit

=== No rules here, Richard, but i don't recall the warhead being known. Could be mistaken.

By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:46 pm: Edit

(J2.152) says that if a SS is destroyed, the warhead strength is not known. However, a SS will only destroy a drone if the warhead is big enough (FD1.561). While a 6 point SS will destroy all drones in the tournament, in "full" rules SFB a drone could take as many 12 points to destroy (type-IV with 1.5 spaces of armor). OTOH, if drone is hit, the player doesn't need to announce how many points it took to destroy it (FD1.54).

Therefore, it would seem that the strength of the impacting SS must be announced, and then the drone's owner announces whether or not the drone died.

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Orions are faily simple game... Just run them over with a Gorn. You can afford internal exchange much better than an Orion.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:37 am: Edit

Oh stop gloating Ralph...

*wimpers in corner*

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 06:59 am: Edit

Mmmmmm, roadkill.

* imagining the gator making and eating his own instead of *being* roadkill *

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:48 am: Edit

Ralph wrote: >Orions are faily simple game... Just run them over with a Gorn. You can afford internal exchange much better than an Orion. >

But, like, how do you hurt them? If you launch plasma, they HET and run away at 31. If you try and tractor them, they probably have more tractor power than you.

-Peter

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 09:21 am: Edit

I have to say, I'm nearly inspired myself to take up the Gorn now after all this discussion. Plasma has long been my favorite weapon, and the idea of 'perfecting' its use out of necessity due to not having a cloak or or the silly ppd to hide behind has its merits.

A quick analysis of the Gorn;

Plasma suite; good. Full spread of 100 in 2 S tubes and 2 f tubes. bad. walleyed arcs. Phaser suite; good. Plenty of phaser 1s. bad. Minimal ph3s, walleyed arcs. Power; average. Hull; good, should take a hit fairly well with a few extra hull and the centre hull. Other; good. Dual shuttle bay, and no particular weakness at all in areas such as control, lab, transporter, scanner, sensor, etc. bad. Turn mode D.

Overall we have a lumbering beast that can lash out in any direction, although concentrating fire will be difficult.

Can the walleyed arcs be turned into an advantage? I would tend to think at first that the ship design leads it into 1 of 2 tactics;

1)straight down the throat. 2)circle and lob.

In #1, you want to centreline forward and force them to turn off, weasel pre-emptively, or simply get anchored. Strong when it works, but prone to having your nose shot off before you get there. Over a turn break, that could be killer.

In #2, this would seem to favour the all around arcs and the 'stand off' ability of plasma. Yet with a turn mode of D and an inability to cloak, the down turns in the rearming cycle can turn out to be a real pain, if not a game loser.

Can a combination of the 2 work? Can you switch between the 2 as necesary? How does the gorn survive rearm turns on a tourney map anyhow???

So...fill in the blanks or let me know if I'm completely out to lunch as necesary.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:45 am: Edit

I've been having a good time in the Gorn now that I am playing it seriously. My recent record is, like 3-0 in RAT17 (vs a Klingon, Tholian, Romulan); 1-2 in WL (vs ISC/Klingon, WYN); 3-1 at Totalcon (vs Hydran, ISC, Klingon/Orion); I played a pick up gaime vs Estrada the other night and won vs his Klingon.

Mostly, I've been playing a very agressive game, as discussed up above. The

basic game theory is similar to what Bill Albert discussed above somewhere:

T1) Go fast with standard S's (I can move 26 hexes, hold 2 shuttles, and contingient 2 points into an HET which is often very handy). Launch a couple S's in the middle of the map. Sometimes both pseudo. Sometimes 1 and 1. Rarely both real. I was explaining the 1-1 opening to Robert the other night, and I'm still pretty happy with it--if they run away and it hits for not much damage, I've only lost 1 torp that comes back on T4, and I can usually shoot the scuffed sheild anyway. If they call BS on my torps and run into them, they lose a sheild which I can likely shoot through with a timely HET. 'Cause there are two of them, even if one is probably fake, people are usually unwilling just to eat them and when they phaser them, they usually either have to guess or shoot them both. Anyway, usually, I get shot at R8, lose my #2 or #6, maybe take a couple internals, and then chase into corner.

T2: Pursue into corner. Get the best shot I can with as many P1's and a Bolt F as I can. Launch the other S and F to make them either take 45 damage or weasel. Leave.

T3: Run away and reload. If my opponent is stopped weaseling on T2, I just reload everything, tool around at 12, and stay out of range 8. If they are coming after me, in all likelyhood, they already have 2 down sheilds and upwards of 20 internals, so I just run like crazy and avoid getting caught.

T4: Again, always depends, but if they stopped on T2, I'm just moving faster than them, staying out of R8, and lobbing envelopers. If they chased on T3, I likely stop, launch an enveloper, and weasel to avoid getting killed too much.

And so on. Works pretty well. Has trouble against a lot of drones, as discussed elsewhere.

-Peter

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Geoff,

Romulans circle and lob. Gorns attack. Plan to attack for 2 turns and run/rearm on the third. Be ready to adapt. It may be right to fight on the run/rearm turn using phasers and a fastload.

I seldom bolt. Since I fight at 5-8 I prefer launching. At 2-10, a launched f-torp does almost as much damage as 4 o/l disruptors, for a fraction of the power.

Remember, your primary offensive weapons are your p1's, NOT your plasmas.

Bill

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Bill wrote: >I seldom bolt. Since I fight at 5-8 I prefer launching. At 2-10, a launched f-torp does almost as much damage as 4 o/l disruptors, for a fraction of the power.>

I'm liking the 1 F-Bolt thrown in with 5-6 P1's at R5 when chasing someone into a corner--the other S/F is enough to make someone run/weasel, and if the bolt hits, you do reasonable internals.

In terms of main line bolting, I don't like doing so as a matter of course, but against Tholians it is usually your best option (use pseudoes to distract them, and then bolt and get lucky...) and sometimes, adapting simply becomes "Huh. My opponent has a hole facing me, a dozen internals, is running away at high speed, and I have an S to bolt in there. Hmm..." and sometimes it works out nicely.

-Peter

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 01:57 am: Edit

Peter; T1) Go fast with standard S's ...I get shot at R8, lose my #2 or #6, maybe take a couple internals, and then chase into corner.

See my concern would be somebody floating up to 8, shooting, then fast weaseling on T2. No chase into corner at all.

Bill; Romulans circle and lob. Gorns attack. Remember, your primary offensive weapons are your p1's, NOT your plasmas.

Seeing as it is very hard to bring many of those phasers to bear (5 on the oblique, 5 on forward/rear centreline) I'm not seeing the phaser armament being much stronger than the FH, who has the same forward oblique phaser 1 armament of 5.

Opening plan: why not ept? An ept S is far more likely to turn off an opponent for the 'chase into the corner' plan imo. Its obviouislly real, and hits for 60.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 06:57 am: Edit

Geoff,

A 60 degree turn can bring 2-3 more into arc. A TFH/TKR can never fire more than 5p1, a Gorn can usually fire 6-7. This is why the Gorn wants to create 2-3 down non-adjacent shields.

The opposing ship and how I feel determines whether (and which side) I envelope on turn 1. I decide during turn 1 EA whether my turn 2 launch will be an env-S or

an S+F. With a turn 2 enveloper, I seldom launch an F.

There are 2 things I don't like about using a turn 2 enveloper, it doesn't create a down shield, and it costs 6 extra power on turn 2. It may be better to use that power in movement and/or tractors.

On the other hand, having both F's means you still pose an anchor threat on turn 3. And while saving the rearm cost may not seem like much, by turn 5 the Gorn starts running out of power.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 08:36 am: Edit

Nitpicky, but the Gorn gets 6 phasers centerline (front or back), 5 on the other four "spines" and 4 anywhere else. Always, of course, discounting the ph-3s, which are useless except for padding.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Geoff wrote: >See my concern would be somebody floating up to 8, shooting, then fast weaseling on T2. No chase into corner at all.>

Unless they turn off on T1, they are getting hit by the 2 opening S's. So they are going to start T2 facing away from you (otherwise, there was likely a whole lot of crazy whamdiggery and gun-play on T1). If they try a 4-14 weasel, yeah, they'll weasel the first plasma volley, but then as soon as they bust up to 14 and are likely facing away from you, you launch another 50 points of plasma--what are they going to do at 14? Either eat the plasma for a bunch of damage or decel and weasel again. Either case is good for you.

>Seeing as it is very hard to bring many of those phasers to bear (5 on the oblique, 5 on forward/rear centreline) I'm not seeing the phaser armament being much stronger than the FH, who has the same forward oblique phaser 1 armament of 5.>

It isn't that much stronger, really. But if you plan on really using all your P1's, you can make them worth it. Chase someone into the corner, centerline them at R4 or 5, fire 6 P1 and a Bolt F. 66% of the time, you do, like, 31 damage to a rear sheild. If that sheild already took 4 or 5 damage from a run out T1 plasma, that is 10-12 internals. Next impulse, turn or HET and get another phaser or two through the hole for another handfull of internals. They can't HET back at you, 'cause there is 50 points of plasma between you.

>Opening plan: why not ept? An ept S is far more likely to turn off an opponent for the 'chase into the corner' plan imo. Its obviouislly real, and hits for 60.>

The problem with the opening enveloper is that it takes a lot of power, meaning you have less speed, so you launch from a less optimal position, don't have 2

special shuttles, and sometimes even have to turn on AFC with a battery if it becomes necessary. And a single enveloper, really, isn't necessarily going to chase someone away--someone like a Kzinti or a 4 drone Shark or a WYN can probably eat a 44 point enveloper, a 60 point enveloper, both your F's, and still catch you and kill you with phasers and drones on T3 when you have nothing armed.

The Romulan doesn't need to worry about this--if their opponent eats all their plasma and tries to corner them on T3, they catch up to a cloaked ship that hides and reloads, taking little damage in the interm. The sub-hunt/resurface phase is what makes or breaks that game, sure, but it is still a game. The Gorn just gets trapped and mugged to death when he is out of plasma, and the single T1 enveloper likely just encourages someone to charge you.

-Peter

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Bill; A 60 degree turn can bring 2-3 more into arc.

1-2 you mean. And really only 1, as the only case wherein you would be adding 2 would be in turning directly in from an oblique facing, or turning out after a rear oblique facing[assuming you maximized facing phaser fire in the first place, and that we are talking about phaser 1s, as I am]. I can't think of too many times where I would fire from that facing and want to make that turn immediately after just to fire 2 more phasers, but granted it can happen.

There are 2 things I don't like about using a turn 2 enveloper

I was referring to a turn 1 ept, in light of the often raised turn 1 double S opening everytime Gorn tc tactics are raised. Do you prefer a double S or single ept yourself?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 09:38 pm: Edit

Peter; If they try a 4-14 weasel, yeah, they'll weasel the first plasma volley, but then as soon as they bust up to 14 and are likely facing away from you, you launch another 50 points of plasma--Either eat the plasma for a bunch of damage or decel and weasel again. Either case is good for you.

But are you turning off to avoid 8? That makes it easier for them to remain facing you and fast weasel. If not, you are now looking at getting pasted twice at r8. That is my concern, trading 2 shields and some internals for 2 weasels isn't a great trade. (not saying you are, just saying that the paramaters of this discussion are kinda loose and why I think the ept is better...uses half the tubes as a double S, and nearly always forces a turnoff)

The problem with the opening enveloper is that it takes a lot of power, don't have 2 special shuttles, and sometimes even have to turn on AFC with a battery

What are you doing with all this power that is still necesary to forgo shuttles and afc???

And a single enveloper, really, isn't necessarily going to chase someone away--someone like a Kzinti or a 4 drone Shark or a WYN can probably eat a 44 point enveloper, a 60 point enveloper, both your F's, and still catch you and kill you with phasers and drones on T3 when you have nothing armed.

Again, I'm not talking about an ept ballet, just the first turn opener. Do you really think any dnd ship is going to charge a ship with 70pts online after taking a warming up from an ept?

Would you if you were the kzinti?

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Where's wralph in all this anyways??

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:36 pm: Edit

EPT opening BAD!

Anchor GOOD!

Bolt GOOD!

T1 brick GOOD!

Facing ISC BAD!

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Bonus points for conciseness!

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 12:16 am: Edit

Yeah a good DnD playe will eat the enveloper to kill you. Unless you launch it way earlier then they will run a little to rewally drop its power. If you want to open with envelopers join the darkside of plasma and play ISC.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:49 am: Edit

Please eat my turn 1 enveloper for 44. You're doing my job for me.

The turn 1-2 opponent overrun threat is the other reason I don't like to env on turn 2. With 70 plasma still onboard, I attack on turn 2. If my opponent wants to

charge thru that, bring it on.

Remember, a 4-drone opponent can't hurt you outside range 5.

Obviously Ralph and I disagree about the turn 1 enveloper. Jude has convinced me that a turn 1 dbl-S encourages your opponent to fire p3's and offside p1's (as p3's) at the torps and then eat them at range 11 on a non-facing 2 or 6 shield.

Geoff, the trick on the 60 degree turn is to bring your opposite side (ls/rs) p1's to bear. It's easier to do than you might think.

Gorn battles tend to be slugfests, not ballets. This is especially true against DnD opponents. By turn 5, neither ship has the power to go much faster than 17.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:53 am: Edit

Geoff wrote: >But are you turning off to avoid 8?>

Goodness no. I'm charging them. I set up the plasmas I launch on T1 so that they can take a R8 if they want but can't get a R5 or better without eating the plasma. I mean, like, I'd prefer them *not* to shoot me at R8, but if I want to chase them agressively into the corner, I can't turn off and avoid 8 myself. In most cases, a R8 shot isn't going to do that much damage, really (a Klingon or Lyran can do a few internals if they have 4 OL's and they all hit; a Fed is expected to do a dozen or so), and I'll probably be up a bunchof power on T2 compared to my opponent, even if I lose an engine box or two.

> That makes it easier for them to remain facing you and fast weasel.>

That is why you don't avoid R8. I launch plasmas at about 15 or so (depending on speed of closure) and turn oblique to let them shoot my #2/6 at R8, but so I can turn right after that and continue to close.

> If not, you are now looking at getting pasted twice at r8. That is my concern, trading 2 shields and some internals for 2 weasels isn't a great trade. (not saying you are, just saying that the paramaters of this discussion are kinda loose and why I think the ept is better...uses half the tubes as a double S, and nearly always forces a turnoff)>

Yeah, see, that is why you chase them. On T1, yeah, you lose a sheild, and you might take a couple internals. If they stop on T2, you still can phaser/bolt them on a flank sheild and maybe get internals on them. You can still launch 50 points of plasma at them after they speed up to 14 and make them eat 50 plasma or decel. You might lose a second sheild, but losing 2 sheilds and taking a few internals really isn't that bad of a trade if your opponent has to decel and you have blown down a sheild too. Especially 'cause if they decelled, they aren't going

to be going real fast when the second plasma volley comes on line.

>What are you doing with all this power that is still necesary to forgo shuttles and afc???>

Moving fast. Getting good board position. If you are launching an early enveloper in the Gorn, you need to be able to launch from as close to the middle of the board as possible, which means going fast early. This means moving at least, like, 24 hexes. Add in 8 for an enveloper, 4 to turn on the ship, and 2 more for the other S torp and, well, you run out of power. So you forgo AFC to arm a shuttle.

>Again, I'm not talking about an ept ballet, just the first turn opener. Do you really think any dnd ship is going to charge a ship with 70pts online after taking a warming up from an ept?>

Again, the problem with the EPT opener is bad board position and bad speed plots. With the EPT armed, you have less in movement, meaning you have to launch earlier to avoid R8 if that is what you want (and without extra power for speed and a contingient HET or rienforcement, I'd likely want to avoid 8), and your opponent has more room to run the plasma out some before coming back in to kill.

>Would you if you were the kzinti?>

Against a Gorn? I'd probably eat the enveloper at the 44 point and charge.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:59 am: Edit

Bill wrote: >Please eat my turn 1 enveloper for 44. You're doing my job for me.>

As a Kzinti, I probably will. I can't speak for most other ships, but as a Kzinti, I'll eat the 44 and run down a Gorn.

>Remember, a 4-drone opponent can't hurt you outside range 5.>

They don't need to. The Kzinti can eat the 44 enveloper, the 50 the Gorn launches, take some internals, the other F, and still get to R1 and eviscerate you.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 10:59 am: Edit

Quote:

Yeah a good DnD playe will eat the enveloper to kill you.

If more D&D players follow this advice, I'm switching back to BP. Eating a turn 1 EPT against a BP ship is bordering on suicide, IMO. Going to close range with OL's(you were planning to kill them after all), is an invitation to get anchored and fed 70 plus phasers. Not to mention you are already down 10pts on every shield. If the BP ship continues to use the EPT ballet, you may eventually have to run through one. But hopefully you'll wait til he's low on plasma to do it.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 01:23 pm: Edit

I don't think Peter and I will agree on this without playing it out. I'm not the best Gorn around, but once upon a time I was one of the better Kzinti's.

If the Gorn starts the game with one enveloper and one standard (S or G), I don't think the Kzinti can catch it on turn 2, without eating the enveloper at full strength on turn 1.

On the flip side, if I'm willing to eat an enveloper for 44, shouldn't I also be willing to eat the pair of S's for 44 less some phasers. A Kzinti can fire enough p3's so the torps get no internals even if both are real.

This puts the Gorn in worse shape for turn 2, unless both S's were fakes. Even then, once the Kzinti knows that anything launched is real, I like its chances.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Eating a 44 point EPT is far less damaging than eating double-S's for 44. 44 is only 7 points per shield; the other is a down shield and some internals.

As a Hydran, I have successfully run through a T1 44 pt EPT to mug the Gorn. Against some ships, the ballet just isn't going to cut it.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 03:05 pm: Edit

wralph; EPT opening BAD!

T1 brick GOOD!

Is it safe to assume that you dislike the ept turn 1 in favour of some brick then? Or is there some other reason? Like insane dnd players rushing you and somehow

killing you turn 2?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Bill wrote: >I'm not the best Gorn around, but once upon a time I was one of the better Kzinti's.>

Yeah, me too. It kind of makes trying the plan out fairly one sided :-)

>If the Gorn starts the game with one enveloper and one standard (S or G), I don't think the Kzinti can catch it on turn 2, without eating the enveloper at full strength on turn 1.>

You don't need to catch him on T2. You catch him on T3. I'm being slightly hyperbolic when I say "just run through everything"--it takes judicious running torps out to 11 hexes here and there, but the Kzinti is perfectly capable of eating all of the Gorn's torps (after running them out some and phasering them some), and running him into a corner by the end of T3 and mangling him.

>On the flip side, if I'm willing to eat an enveloper for 44, shouldn't I also be willing to eat the pair of S's for 44 less some phasers.>

Nah--as Andy pointed out, a 44 point enveloper is some sheild damage. 44 points of non enveloper is a down sheild and some internals, and maybe a bunch of phasers shot through the hole for a second volley of internals.

-Peter

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 07:30 pm: Edit

After 4p3 apiece, the 44 is down to 15+15. Even thru the 3/4/5 shield, that's only 1 internal once you dump the batteries. Anyone who eats the torps thru a facing shield deserves to lose.

And what are the chances that both are real? Sounds like an awful good way to commit suicide. The prospect of chasing down a toothless Gorn for the next 65+ impulses seems awful good to me.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 08:42 pm: Edit

I'm with Bill on this one. I think eating the turn 1 EPT is a bad idea. If you're not gonna get to the Gorn on turn 1 or 2, there's not a reason to not run it out even more than 11 hexes. If you can get it down to 30 minus phasers, that's reasonable. The other thing to remember is that if Kzinti runs the EPT out even to 11 hexes, it's now been seperated from it's drones, making them easy targets.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 09:36 pm: Edit

Brian wrote: >The other thing to remember is that if Kzinti runs the EPT out even to 11 hexes, it's now been seperated from it's drones, making them easy targets. >

That's the trick--not launching drones so they can be seperated. The Kzinti

doesn't need to launch the SP early vs the Gorn. You can hold your drones till you see what he is doing--if he chases you, you can launch 4+4 over the turn break, and make him deal with 8 drones if he comes in for an anchor. If he launches and turns off, you have no need to launch drones till after you decide what you are doing with the plasma on the map.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Peter,

If you run into the corner and launch 8 drones, I'm gonna peel off and kill them. Maybe I'll launch more plasma if necessary to keep you running for a bit. This is actually a great time for me to launch a pseudo, if you seem a little skittish. So for the price of one EPT, and maybe a pseudo I will kill 1/3 of your drones(not counting the SP). On turn 3, I'm still holding 70 plas, plus a fast load and you are down 8 drones. I also probably scuffed your shields a little with the EPT unless you dove all the way in. If that's the case, I probably didn't even need to launch the pseudo. This seems like a winning situation to me, either way.

Brian

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 08:28 am: Edit

People are constantly talking about

Quote:

set up the plasmas I launch on T1 so that they can take a R8 if they want but can't get a R5 or better without eating the plasma.

and

Quote:

separate the Kzinti from his drones

but for us (relative) newbies this doesn't help much. Obviously there are a nearly infinite number of possibilities for board position, but is it possible to get some specifics out there? As an example, if the hotly-debated Gorn/Kzin matchup gets played on SFBOL, can you have the program give a play-by-play and post it here?

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 09:35 am: Edit

You are NOT going to get anchored on turn 1 by a plasma player who launched a EPT. Just seeing the EPT lets you know where almost all of their power is. 4HK+2 in the other S(holding or RD)+8EPT leaves 24 + batteries on turn 1. Since batteries alone aren't enough to anchor you, movement will let you know how much they have left.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 10:33 am: Edit

Brian wrote: >If you run into the corner and launch 8 drones, I'm gonna peel off and kill them.>

Have you played this game out? What happens, generally is:

A) Gorn launches Enveloper and turns off. B) Gorn launches standards (or doesn't) and closes for potential anchor.

In either case, the Kzinti doesn't need to launch drones early. in (A), the Kzinti can get as close as possible and turn off at the last moment to run out the plasma, taking the best shot possible on a sheild somewhere. In (B) the Kzinti can do the same thing, but likely on the Gorn's #1, and likely much closer, knocking half the sheild off.

If the Gorn pursues, you launch 4 drones at the end of the turn. The Gorn, if he keeps coming, needs to deal with the 4 drones, either by shooting or tractoring (well, at least 2 of them). Once he deals with those, if he keeps coming, you launch 4 more, likely fast ones, to make him deal with those. At this point, the Gorn can launch and leave or keep going in for an anchor. If he launches and leaves, depending on what is launched and various particulars, the Kzin can either run as far as possible, phaser the plasma, and lose a sheild and take a few internals or hit the wall and weasel, at which point the game is afoot. If the Gorn goes in for the anchor, he is going to need to use a bunch of phasers on drones and be actively pursiuing with a likely damaged #1. Again, nothing is certain, but this is hisrotically how these things have gone.

This being said, I've never played against a Gorn who launched the EPT and kept closing agressively. And I have played against Gorns who have launched 2 S's, followed them agressively, and then when they got R5 centerlined on one of my flank shields, they bolted all their torps and fired whatever phasers they had left bearing, and HETed out of combat. In reality, those are the Gorns that have fared best.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 10:41 am: Edit

Troy wrote: >but for us (relative) newbies this doesn't help much. Obviously there are a

nearly infinite number of possibilities for board position, but is it possible to get some specifics out there?>

How to get plasmas out to make someone eat them to take a R5 shot:

T1: Move, like 31 till impulse 14; 16 till impulse 22; 26 till end for 26 movement. Agressively close on the middle of the map. Assuming your opponent doesn't corner dodge (which is bad for him anyway), at about impulse 13, you'll be at about 15-16 hexes. Launch a pair of S's. Maybe both fake. Maybe one real. Sometimes both real if you play the same people all the time, just to goof them up. Impulse 14, turn left just as you slow down to 16. Slip away from the plasma as it goes forward. Your opponent will likely (assuming he is being agressive) get to R8 off your #2 when the plasmas are at about R4 from his ship. If he fires, you lose a sheild, and possibly take a few internals, but nothing huge. If he doesn't and tries to keep closing, continue to slip away, so he has to eat the plasmas to get the R5 or better shot. If he eats the plasma, and one was real, he has lost a sheild. If you move the plasma cleverly (i.e. keep the plasma between you and him as best as you can), you might be able to HET and shoot through the hole. But usually, people don't just eat the plasma. But sometimes they do, so occasionally, launch both as real ones, just to keep them guessing :-)

To seperate the Kzinti from his drones--if he has a lot of drones on the map (i.e. 10 on T1 'cause he launched the SP), feel free to launch, like, 70 points of plasma or so. The Kzinti can either be manly and hope you launched psuedo S's, or be prudent and turn off to out run and/or weasel. If he outruns, you can shoot his drones at your leisure. If he weasels, the drones fall off the map for you.

-Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:08 am: Edit

An opening I've used for a turn 1 anchor in the Gorn is this:

04 for HK 08 for EPT S 01 Held G torp 22 movement (24-17-26 split) 03 Tractors

The trick is to make it look like you've mis-timed the EPT launch - you want the target to see an opportunity to get a range 5 or 6 shot and turn out from the EPT. You want to tempt him into overloading off of battery there, because if he overloads, you can probably tractor him at range 2 or 3. If you have an extra point of battery power available, upgrade the held G to a held S. Otherwise, having someone grabbed and shield ablated with the EPT, and then fed 60 isn't

much different from grabbing them and feeding them 70.

It's not an "every time" opening. It's a good opening to throw into the mix when someone has started to expect the EPT-and-lob opening.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >The trick is to make it look like you've mis-timed the EPT launch - you want the target to see an opportunity to get a range 5 or 6 shot and turn out from the EPT. You want to tempt him into overloading off of battery there, because if he overloads, you can probably tractor him at range 2 or 3.>

It looks like an interesting plan, but I can't imagine that you'd ever get range 3 of anyone--even if you keep closing behind the EPT, most folks will be going pretty fast near the end of the turn, will shoot you at R4 or 5 oblique, turn off, and spend a couple batteries to jump up to 31. On the up side, you can just centerline them, phaser and bolt them, and then when the EPT does hit, they'll take a second volley of internals.

-Peter

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Peter,

I think we are both saying the same thing. To win, the Gorn has to play aggressively. If you want to ballet, play a Romulan.

I'm willing to concede that there are many different ways for the Gorn to play aggressively. I prefer the turn 1 enveloper to the double-S launch because I prefer the tactical options presented by having both pseudo torps still on my ship for turns 4 and 5.

I don't like Ken's plan. I'd rather put those 3 energy towards shuttles or reinforcement. The only time I base an ea plot on my opponent making a mistake is when I'm already losing.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Bill wrote: >I think we are both saying the same thing. To win, the Gorn has to play aggressively. If you want to ballet, play a Romulan.>

That's what I've been saying all week :-)

>I prefer the turn 1 enveloper to the double-S launch because I prefer the tactical options presented by having both pseudo torps still on my ship for turns 4 and 5.>

Reasonable. I like not having an EPT on turn 1 'cause I like going faster and

having more discretionary power--have a couple points of contingient HET power makes T1 much easier if your opponent decides to run into the torps. That, and I tend to like launching the EPTs on T4 and 5, as I have down sheilds to exploit, so I figure I might as well use at least one of the psuedoes early. And I tend to be really bad with pseudoes late in the game...

>I don't like Ken's plan. I'd rather put those 3 energy towards shuttles or reinforcement. The only time I base an ea plot on my opponent making a mistake is when I'm already losing.>

Yeah, I don't think Ken's plan is all the hot either, myself, but mostly 'cause it is simply *way* too easy to get shot in the face at R4 but then never get to R3 for the rest of the turn. But this being said, I think it would be really funny if it worked :-)

-Peter

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:37 pm: Edit

EPT opening Good!

Anchor GOOD!

Bolt GOOD!

T1 brick BAD!*

Facing ISC GOOD!

Ok, this from the TKR Capn'

*T1 brick is good vs ISC

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Carl wrote: >*T1 brick is good vs ISC

Ya think? Really? I mean, like, yeah, I'm thinking like a Gorn, but how much of a bricak can you put up really, and still have a reasonable first turn? If you aren't moving, like, 20+ hexes, you aren't going to get a good plasma launch solution, meaning the ISC is going to likely be able to get to R8 (or R5) to fire his P1's in addition to the PPD. I'd prefer 24-26 hexes to really push him away. But even at 20 hexes, how much rienforcement can you put up? 6 or 8 points? Hardly seems that worthwhile.

-Peter

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 04:39 pm: Edit

In the Gorn I used to put up 11-12 points of reinforcement. I held G torps (even I got myself in trouble with reserve power), and disrupted his PPD be half (spread among 4 shields when I turned out). I had full psuedos available or could upgrade the torp to an S for 1 point if he turned in. Quite often the ISC turned in I launched 50 points of plasma, and he HET away.

Putting up 11 reinforcement is leaving little to other systems, but I flew it like a disruptor ships that was iron jawing. 17 to move (15 until 4, 16 until 26 then 26 split), I let the ISC come to me as I run out to the center of th board, and when we approach range 10 I would speed up to move the last 5 impulses. I then had 2 to torps, and 4 for std 17+2+4+11= 32 for leaving 6 power available for special shuttles (2 suis and charging a ww), tractor (if he got really froggy), or extra reinforcement/speed if I felt I wanted to change it up.

This does not allow the ISC to hurt you badly at range on turn 1. If the ISC comes to range 5 your phasers do similar to his. If the ISC fires the PPD at ragne 15 you are sitting pretty. If the ISC loads 2 envelopers on turn 1, run them out and try to mug him on turn 3 when he has fastloads. If the ISC only loads 1, he will come in to get a good launch for turn 2. You might have to eat this one depending on how good his pursuit is. On turn 3 you can trap him in a corner and drop plasma for him to deal with, or brick up again to get better position.

I do believe the Gorn (all BP) is at a disadvantage agains the ISC, but you can make him really work at it. If he turns in at range 10 (or 8) to get a good PPD shot you have him unless he hets, even 45 points of plasma will make a big dent, and will tend to offset the PPD if it is bricked well.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Well, in my last two ISC games I launched the A torp (standard, real), turned F and sideslipped to keep the distance a open. He can fire phasers if he eat the torp, and then he will hit fresh shields* because of my brick negating the PPD. Actually what I am doing is to keep him away while I get the board position to chase him down for the anchor. As for how strong the brick should be I think you should mainly protect the shield you need to chase him down. If the others take some splash, well that's why you got them; to absorb damage So it doesn't need to be very strong. Hk 4 G torp 1 S torp 2 move 18 13 pts remaining for whatever you like

This has worked for me,

so far...

*Most likely #2, keeping the #1 in decent condition for the chase. Unfortunately, based on my limited experience, I prefer using the #2 for the chase...

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Quote:

>I don't like Ken's plan. I'd rather put those 3 energy towards shuttles or reinforcement. The only time I base an ea plot on my opponent making a mistake is when I'm already losing.>

Yeah, I don't think Ken's plan is all the hot either, myself, but mostly 'cause it is simply *way* too easy to get shot in the face at R4 but then never get to R3 for the rest of the turn. But this being said, I think it would be really funny if it worked :-)

I managed to beat Paul Scott's Klingon with it twice in JFF games; he found it amusing as a "OK, it's something that will throw a lot of players for a loop the first time they see it..." opening.

Not saying it'll work all the time, just that it's something that masquerades nicely as a standard EPT opening and then turns into something else.

Heck. I managed to beat people with a pDB WAX because it did something they weren't expecting.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 07:48 pm: Edit

I can see this plan working against Paul because of his style, "all out attack". The reason I don't like it, is I play "maximize flexiblity".

As a rule, I don't like committing to a course of action during ea unless it is my only reasonable plan. I've always felt that this game is about preserving tactical options. The player who does the best job of this usually wins.

You've hit the nail on the head about the WAX. It wins because its opponents don't take the time to figure out what it will try to do. IMO, it's the only TC where relative skill level and rps are less important than opponent skill level.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Troy,

New players should start playing the Fed. It has a very simple plan. Overload, get close, push the candy colored red button. Even when you lose, you still get to hurt your opponent, which is good for morale. More important, you always have a chance of winning any game regardless of your opponent's skill. This is how our ftf group always trained new players.

Once you gain familiarity with the game, you are ready to try either a drone (GBS with 4 drones), or plasma (TKE) ship. You still want a ship with a simple plan. A simple plan consistently followed will give you your best chance of success.

As you gain experience, you can start flying the more flexible ships. The last ships you should try are the finesse ships, i.e. Klingon, ISC, or either Tholian.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:48 pm: Edit

So its official, I hate the Gorn. Cannot stand the plasma arcs and D turn mode!!!

After all this Gorn TCC discussion a month or so back, I reupped for SFBOL and entered rat 18 as a Gorn on a whim. I consider myself to be a very good plasma player but thats as a Rom, not a Gorn.

Game 1, kzinti T1 I mange to seperate the kzin from his first wave and sp with an ept, taking minor damage from some standards. T2 I turn into give chase, waxing the sp drones at my leisure over a turn break. I speed up after that to 26 as he waddles away at 24/20 or something. I get range 5 centrelined on his #5 after wading through another drone wave and contemplate a bolt with 2(?) remaining facing phaser 1s. This is supposedly where I want to be with the Bakija doctrine, but he's nowhere near the edge of the board yet. And I'm closing still anyways. So I decide to keep chasing, hoping to get closer. Then the kzin turns back across me for some reason, so it seems like I could get nice and close by eot for a zero energy or real anchor. I launch an f to keep him honest. This is phasered so it plinks his #5 that I've been working on. By imp 31 I'm at range 1 and have the 0 energy anchor. I fire phasers at his #4 and launch 50. I then het away to reopen the range before he can do the same and blast me next turn. T3 50 hits different shield than I want, the #3. Still 24 internals iirc. As expected, he hets and blasts me, doing 12 inside? T4 I run and circle wide as he works up to speed. I foolishly let him shoot some stds through my down #4. T5 I park and castle, having reloaded and wanting to hide my #4. He waddles in with everything loaded. At which point I discover he dropped weasels on his het/blast turn and never reloaded him. He concedes when the ept hits.

I guess the only thing I regret is launching the f T2 when I did. Seemed pointless in retrospect.

Game 2 lyran T1 I come in with my same 28/14/25 plot, to gain board centre before lobbing ept. This doesnt work out so well as the Lyran is quickly on top of me before I get back up to speed. He takes the ept and 50! (albeit on a non-facing sheild dangit) and pastes me with esgs and phasers. I fire back downing his #1 with phasers, but the kicker is my speed means I have to use reserve warp to try and avoid his suicides at range 1. Which combined with the loss of 3 batts already in direct fire means he can just tractor me and feed them to me. T2 Park, get destroyed f torp into arc for launch. He runs this out a bit and then hets back, taking it on a flank rear sheild. He closes for a hack n slash, so on 25 I phaser away his #6, leaving him with just a few single boxes on his forward half sheilding. He comes in and drops my #2 to 5. T3 We blast each other at point blank, my 5 phasers versus his 3 old and 2 phasers. I come out on top due to hot rolls and extra reinf., and feedback. I back off about 5 hexes and once he realizes I have heavy torps coming online concedes.

I liked my phaser die rolls and our willingness to slug it out in this game but thats about it. My lackadasial T1 plot is revealing several weaknesses. Not having trac or decent speed during the engagment hurt.

Game 3 Shark B/add T1 Same opening plot. I screwed myself with ept movement as he tried to cross my T, and had to give him the option of turning up for an oblique or take it. He turns up, I turn into intercept, and my ept lags behind. We're in old range at this point and I really should've ducked behind his FA, especially with no brick or tractors, but I bullishly come in on straight intercept, hoping for a turn break or 0 energy anchor. He hammers me hard at r.2 with 2olds, 2 stds, 6 p1 and 5 p3 for something like 74! Demoralized, I get as close as I can and launch the destroyed f. The D turn mode means I am unable to keep the other 50 in arc without exposing my down #1. I curse the clumsy ship as its arcs and TM makes life difficult for me. T2 He wisely runs with just enough to resist an anchor attempt from r.2 considering I am down to 30 power. I forgo the anchor and had circled at speed 8 with everything loaded, hoping he would park and weasel with 2 torps in flight. He doesnt, I concede a losing game with my little one needing a bath.

I'm just about ready to turn in my Gorn comission papers guys...I know there are many mistakes I made (ept opening isnt looking so good now, not with the aggresive moves I was making anyways) and I'm quite rusty in general, but man I hate that ship! If only it had a B turn mode or something....

Anyways, hope you enjoyed reading my Gorn calamities at least.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Looks pretty reasonable to me--you waxed a Kzinti, which is really hard for a Gorn to fight; a Lyran, which isn't that difficult for a Gorn to fight in theory (although Jude's Lyran has killed, what, 3 Gorns and is in the middle of his fight with a 4th in RAT17?), and you lost to a Shark, which is full of drones, making the Gorn's life very difficult. Nothing to be ashamed of :-)

What was your general opening plot?

-Peter

By Paul Stovell (Pauls) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 04:29 am: Edit

Geoff,

Nice reports on the Gorn.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:03 am: Edit

If you don't object to my observation, it sounds like piecemealing the plasmas may have played a role in each one of these battles and piecemealing against the Kzinti or Blackshark in particular seems to be a serious problem because of their big drone loadouts and strong knife fighting capabilities.

On the other hand though, it sounds like you started out with pretty workable positioning against the Black Shark; when he crosses your T, he doesn't get a very optimal shot unless he commits by turning in and if he turns out to run, the pursuit angles are very clean. Maybe just hold onto those plasmas (70) until he commits to a more defensive posture? It seems to me that no matter how dangerous plasma on the board is, it never is quite as scary as plasma in the tubes, because now it's a known quantity with verifiable behavioral patterns and with very maleable damage-taking options for the target and part of the art of plasma launch is finding a balance between the two in launch decisions.

When you fly against BP, do you not often find that some of the pressure has been taken off of you once the plasma is deployed (barring a 100-point anchor, of course)? Now instead of worrying about getting clobbered in some corner, you can get to work with addressing the plasma on the map and if the plasma boat is lingering in the area behind its stream of plasma, agressive tactical players may take the opportunity to jump on it, which is bad news if you're banking on them being more reasonable and a real shame when they get away with it.

I think from a psychological perspective BP is most fun when used to exert pressure from a flexible position (which of course tends to work better with a Firehawk, because of arcs and turnmode, but maybe it's applicable with the Gorn

as well). I think the first thing to do in BP on Turn 1 is to find a way to cow your opponent into a defensive posture, then relentlessly hound him with lots of plasma artillery in the tubes. Anchors aren't necessarily the primary option here, but you're right there to keep the heat on him and pressure him into bad decisions and collect on them if he falters. You may arrive at certain decision points where a favorable launch is possible, but then you have to ask yourself if it is worth it from a strategic perspective, or will the results only be temporary, if immediate tactical gratification? If the latter is the case, and your strategic position will remain intact with the former, then there's no reason to pull the trigger, especially when it involves F launches on the open map. Plasma ships as a whole are very strategic ships, I think, and trying to fly them too tactically with the mindset of a disruptor captain will inevitably lead to trouble.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:55 am: Edit

[Geof's WBS fight] On the key impulse of plasma movement, I would have been content to fire 4 standards and turn off, had he gone for the more defensive movement (allowing me the hex of separation if I accepted running for the corner). Instead he chose the more aggressive move (which would hit me immediately if I turned off for the corner, but which allowed me to turn in and close). Given that I moved every impulse at that point and knowing he'd have to run through 6 drones and 2 SS if he tried to run me down, it wasn't a bad option. He had the chance at one point to slip out of my FA during that late turn approach - I figured that he wouldn't based upon his aggressive plasma movement.

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Looks like you were able to beat two unranked opponents and got embarrassed by #39 (out of 61) ranked player. From your game descriptions you should lose 10 out of 9 games against any top 15 players (gorn vs reasonable ship). If you are allowing the T, and with your speed plot you do, you should not use an EPT, a brick is much better even if it is on a wrong shield.

You are right, had over Gorn keys and all the PPTs you were holding on to

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:43 am: Edit

With the "Crossing the T" topic, this brings up another interesting area for me: how exactly does a plasma boat want to approach its opponent and how does the plasma boat want its opponent to approach it? Obviously the plasma boat's approach will vary based upon hull type, but I believe that there is a fairly universal hierarchy of approaches the plasma opponent can use.

I see three basic ways in which any ship can approach another:

1) Centerline charge 2) Cross the T 3) Shieldline charge

Now from a plasma boat's perspective, I would rank the approaches like so (from most to least favorable): 1 or 2 (depending upon hull type), 3

From the plasma opponent's perspective, I would rank them this way: 3, 2, 1

The centerline charge is the biggest loser for the plasma opponent, because it provides the optimal plasma launch (right down the snout), which means greatest closure rate on the plasma and most difficult escapability (two turns or an HET are required). If the plasma boat is crossing the T, this also means a very low closure rate on the plasma boat. If you elect to turn off, you will have to decide fairly early to do so. If you are head to head on the plasma boat, the direction will not be cruicially important, but if he is crossing your T, you have a big decision to make: 1) turn away from him, completely breaking off the battle pass, with no follow up shot and some possible harassment in the far corner the next turn, or 2) turn and parallel his course, possibly slipping in for a closer shot and generally showing a more aggressive posture, but at the cost of getting pinned badly in the near corner with no good options. I believe the best option here is #1, because it recognizes the approach as a wash and allows you to have a relatively clean break, but it tends to gall aggressive anti-plasma players from what I've seen, who prefer the parallel course with its more immediate rewards and reprisals.

Crossing the T on a plasma boat is another problematic approach, due to the difficulty of getting a good shot without mutating the pass into a close-in centerline charge. Also, if the plasma boat is showing a big ole brick on its #1, you will be hard pressed to sniff out another shield. This, coupled with a general inability to control the range effectively before losing FA means unsatisfying results. You will have immediate escapability from plasma in a way you would not with the centerline charge, but your turn out will result in very clean pursuit angles for the plasma boat and possibly serious trouble next turn.

This leaves the shieldline approach, which I believe to be the way in which one should always attempt to approach BP. If, at a range of ten hexes, you can strive to be sitting on the 1/2 or 1/6 shieldline going exactly opposite directions, you will be able to exert maximum pressure on the plasma ship, matching rate on the ship with closure rate on the plasma and having clean escapability with a simple turn out. This will put a lot of pressure on the plasma boat to blink first, so to speak, and turn out, at which point his plasma launch has been wasted, because you are now free to turn out and run unmolested and you may also have a nice shot on his rear shields. If he does not turn out, then you get a nice shot on his forward flank shield which, due to the pursuit angles this approach sets up, will be his primary chase shield. Also, this approach makes the application of bricks very tough, because of the flexibility in shield targetting this approach allows.

So I guess that's my observations on maneuver and approach in the BP equation. If I'm flying BP, I would strive for either the reinforced centerline approach (usually in a Gorn, but sometimes in a TFH), or crossing the T (TFH). As a BP player, my goal is to compel my opponent to turn off first with minimal expenditure of resources in the form of plasma and damage), so that I can pursue and continue to exert pressure. As a BP opponent, my goal is to force the plasma boat to turn off to avoid damage first, if possible and, if not possible, to degrade his pursuit angles as much as possible without over-committing. On turn one, the plasma boat is going to have the initiative and it will occupy the center of the map if it really wants it, but I believe its initiative can be blunted one of the keys to this sort of a matchup is how the plasmas are launched: are they launched on the plasma boat's terms offensively, or are they defensive launches on your terms? If the plasma opponent can achieve its goals, it can break down the ballet and degrade the plasma boat's map position over a period of three to four turns. If the plasma boat gets its way, then the battle will probably go badly for the opponent in a prolonged and slow death by EPT, or a much quicker death by anchor.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 03:16 pm: Edit

What was your general opening plot?

28/14/25 something like that, EPT and housekeeping. Next to nothing else. I wasn't going to weasel and I think once I had a single suicide armed. No brick, no tractors. I think game 1 I held a G torp in the off S tube, but otherwise it was just speed and plasma.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 03:31 pm: Edit

By John Schneider;

If you don't object to my observation, it sounds like piecemealing the plasmas may have played a role in each one of these battles and piecemealing against the Kzinti or Blackshark in particular seems to be a serious problem because of their big drone loadouts and strong knife fighting capabilities.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, but in any case I don't think it ever was a problem. Launches of 40-60 is not piecemealing imo, and the only time I every launched anything smaller than that was typically when I had to (destroyed f). The one time I did launch a single f voluntarily, I have already pointed out as a questionable launch.

Maybe just hold onto those plasmas (70) until he commits to a more defensive posture?

You hold onto 70 until he commits period, and I did that. Poor maneuver and a plot that didn't really match my aggressive posture is where I failed.

When you fly against BP, do you not often find that some of the pressure has been taken off of you once the plasma is deployed (barring a 100-point anchor, of course)?

Of course. Unless of course you were trying to get out of a sticky spot where plasma launch would make your life hell at that particular time.

I think from a psychological perspective BP is most fun when used to exert pressure from a flexible position (which of course tends to work better with a Firehawk, because of arcs and turnmode, but maybe it's applicable with the Gorn as well).

See this is just it, I miss the FH greatly. I need to find a good reason to fly the Gorn, and frankly it isn't offering me one yet.

Other than the challenge I suppose.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Ralph, I think I know what I was doing wrong, but humour me. All my problems were likely with my T1 EA. I dont see any major errors anywhere else. Yes?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Geoff. With an EPT opening I would have made the more defensive plasma movement (i.e., give me the corner). Launching an EPT is going for at least a ballet opening. You take 4 stnd disr on a shield and take and hold the center of the map. The Gorn probably works better with a standards opening (the common double S or SF) instead of an EPT one as it fits better with the aggressive posture the Gorn needs to take.

With a T1 EPT, you an either launch a second one to dig your opponent in the corner, going for the long ballet game, which the Gorn is capable of (LS/RS F-torps and all-around phasers compensate for turn mode) or use T2 to charge in with 70 against an opponent with less room to run. Granted, you only have a fast F on T3 but, hopefully, its enough by then.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

I guess you could say that I gambled on you not turning into 70 pts of plasma. Which worked out for you better than I thought (due in part to my EA not being flexible for it).

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 06:07 pm: Edit

I have to agree that the gorn sucks. My evidence? I'm a reasonably competent player, and I've managed to go something like 13 years flying that P.O.S. without obtaining a single ace card :P

Still flying it though...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Geoff wrote: >28/14/25 something like that, EPT and housekeeping. Next to nothing else. I wasn't going to weasel and I think once I had a single suicide armed. No brick, no tractors. I think game 1 I held a G torp in the off S tube, but otherwise it was just speed and plasma. >

Reasonable. I used to do that, but then I decided that I really like the ship much better with the power curve that comes from holding standards. I like having 26 in movement, a couple held shuttles, and then a couple more points for contingient HET or tractors or something. I think my current plot is something like 31 till 16; 17 till 25, 24 till end (I might have to move back the 31 if the math doesn't add up). You can charge like crazy, slow down some when you launch some S's, and then speed up for the end of the turn. 26 might be better for the end of the turn, but your opponent is usually out moving you anyway at that point (as they are usually 26+),and often the better turn mode helps.

In terms of torps, your opponent usually turns and runs from a pair of S's, or even one S if running into it means taking it for 30 on a sheild that you reasonably will be able to shoot soon, and the extra speed allows you to be extra agressive.

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 03:45 am: Edit

Daniel Bitseff said:

"I have to agree that the gorn sucks. My evidence? I'm a reasonably competent player, and I've managed to go something like 13 years flying that P.O.S. without obtaining a single ace card :P"

Yes, but one does not have to be an Ace to be good, and one also does not always have to be terribly good to be an Ace, unfortunately. Obviously it is an indicator of ability, but hardly the final word of SFB have/have not status.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:22 am: Edit

And for those who don't remember, Cadet_Stimpy got the unofficial nickname of "Hatslayer" after progressing through:

Tom Carroll Bill Schoeller Paul Scott

in his first three rounds of an SFBOL RAT.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:19 pm: Edit

I don't remember Hatslayer, but I heard Cadet "Fleet Captains Taste Like Chicken"

Stimpy several times.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:58 pm: Edit

What is the school when fighting Orions in the Romulan (TKR)? I have meet two Orions this year and went 50/50 in those fights, but don't think I

will be saved by failed Hets very often

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 03:05 pm: Edit

I think a good starting point for the TKR is to embrace a few things TKR captains traditionally shun: the cloaking device and aggressive play. The TKR EPT ballet sans cloak is an ideal way to get clobbered when flying against a grossly-overpowered destroyer-sized guided missile that can jam a bunch of fusions up your #4 in less than a turn from almost anywhere on the map.

Besides those generalities, if he has a short-ranged high crunch package, he probably won't be a warp crack baby, so you may have some anchor opportunities (although that's risky and potentially playing into his strength) and he'll definitely want to close on you (which goes without say), so you can frustrate him with an EPT game, IF you're willing to use the cloak. If not, his frustration will probably come to a resounding end suddenly and dramatically sometime around turn 3 or 4. It's also worth remembering that he too can cloak effectively with this kind of a package, so a turn 1 EPT might be worth at least some second thoughts. I'd be surprised to see an Orion take a package like this against a Romulan though, but if one ever does, it would probably be against a TKR, because of their abhorrence of the cloak and knack for frittering away their plasmas in passive EPT games.

If he has a heavy package, the cloak is not as much of a game breaker, but constant pressure with a full tank of plasmas may be. If you can get behind him and stay there, using phasers judiciously to chew up his rear shields and maintaining terrible HET angles for him (ie, you're not specifically trying to cut him off like a normal plasma pursuit, but rather just stay directly behind him), he may have little choice but to keep the warp juices flowing into the veins, and any attempt at a direct confrontation could be catastrophic for him. Here it's a important to use your plasmas EXTREMELY sparingly, because chewing away on those rear shields is going to force a head-on collision eventually and it would be a shame if you were not fully prepared.

In both of these descriptions, I think the theme is to be the keeper of the options and to continue to dole out plenty of bad ones on which the Orion can impale himself each turn. Just never assume a lack of audacity on his part (which seems to be a recurring lapse for dancing TKR captains, enerally speaking), and make sure you are prepared for any amount of aggression he can heap upon you.

And one final note about the cloak: if you do cloak out, a good method of maneuver is the "Cloak Overrun" (as opposed to the Underrun), which involves simply turning away from him and allowing him to run you over back to front. If he wants to shoot, he gets your #4, then flies past you. If you elect to come out of cloak at that point, you will get a nice range 5 shot on his #4, unless he HETs and runs back over you again (minus the weapons he'd already fired). Of course if your batts are charged, this will be a big loser for him too. It's another example of doling out "opportunities" for him that suck and only help further to dig his grave.

Well anyway, I hope that might provide some different insights, for what it's worth. It's been a while since I've gotten to talk so much Romulan shop

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Tnx John. Funny thing is I suspect I have been too aggressive in my games! I rip down shields, but fail to make that a game winning edge, mostly because I TOO have lost shields.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Carl,

I agree with your comment (about your aggressiveness). You like being the hunter too much. To consistently succeed when fighting Orions, you need to learn to be the prey.

Bill

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 02:00 am: Edit

Well my initial reaction was that the TKR is the perfect Orion fighter, because its standoffish ballet tendencies allow it to hold its value quite nicely (usually), which means a good trade-in deal just before EA for a shiny new Firehawk. That didn't seem too constructive, though, so I didn't say it.

If you like flying your ship aggressively, however, why not fly the Firehawk? It truly is the big cat of the Romulan collection; it's stealthy, quick, aggressive and overpowering. So long as its prey continues to stare at it, it'll remain frustratingly off in the bushes, but if you run from it, you just excite its predatory instincts and the chase is on.

Okay, enough of the cat analogy, which surely offended no less than three races. I do see a common denominator over this extended discussion string though: the Firehawk. Your Gorn giving you problems? Fly the Firehawk. TKR getting munched when it tailgates? Fly the Firehawk! Heck, for that matter, just got a really cool TKE off of eBay? For god's sake, leave it in the garage where it belongs and fly the Firehawk!

The Firehawk is obviously not the final word in BP, and the other ships have their strengths as well, but if you like to fly an angry and unhappy ship that suffers severe bouts of roadrage, the Firehawk is tailor-made for you, IMO.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 05:29 am: Edit

Heh, I don't know about that. The combination of my aggressive instinct and ship

have surprised people now and then I suspect my problem fighting the Orion wouldn't go away just because I switch ship (I actually switched to the TKR from the TFH!). Maybe Bill got something; maybe I should try a consistent EPT ballet (IOW 'dance' till I win).

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 06:37 am: Edit

Also, considering the 128 imp limit to cloaking (in cloak vs cloak) and the Orions great maneuverability, I am not comfortable with the idea of using the cloak. But the cloak overrun is an interesting idea. It's definitely thinking outside the box.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 06:37 am: Edit

Also, considering the 128 imp limit to cloaking (in cloak vs cloak) and the Orions great maneuverability, I am not comfortable with the idea of using the cloak. But the cloak overrun is an interesting idea. It's definitely thinking outside the box.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:49 am: Edit

I didn't think the 128-impulse limit applied for Romulan-Orion fights, but even if it does, it definitely does not invalidate the cloak as a means of defense.

I think it is worth it get comfortable with the cloak, if you want to ballet an Orion, because there will be times when you simply can't run away from him. I know that it is never desirable to sacrifice speed and initiative, as the anti-cloak argument goes, but if you are a position where the cloak might be an option, chances are you already lost the initiative and losing speed due to cloak should always be preferable to losing it due to catastrophic damage.

The Orion is obviously fast and maneuverable, but do you think he's going to want to slow down sufficiently and sacrifice HETs to stay on top of you while you're moving along under cloak at speed 10 or less? If he does, he's probably playing into your hands, especially if you held onto your Fs.

I guess a potentially useful early indicator of whether or not you should consider the cloak is where you launch your second EPT in relation to where you launched your first one. If your launch position has degraded away from the center of the map, then he is probably responding to your launches aggressively, he is prompting defensive launches through pre-launch maneuver, or you are just

launching too passively, so you can probably anticipate trouble the following turn and speed likely won't help.

The "Overrun" was actually conceived more with the Fed in mind: if he really wants to sub hunt with phasers, this separates his photons from his phasers and provides guaranteed range 5 retaliation and regained initiative for the Romulan. If he alphas your #4, he's probably in really serious trouble, and if he declines to shoot altogether, then you're still behind him and can maneuver for surfacing position. I think it would be useful against an Orion as well, though.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 08:49 am: Edit

I think I fell victim to that "cloaked overrun" thing myself in my EW replacement game vs a TKE; I had trouble getting to range 0, and then when he uncloaked I didn't notice my

hurt #5 was facing him

As for using the cloak against the Orion, you are right that it is an escape maneuver. Problem is most of the time I have cloaked for that reason I have regretted it. So therefore the question is wether or not it is possible to get out of cloak against the orion without taking so much damage I loose.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:08 am: Edit

Well if you don't like to use the cloak defensively, try using it offensively

Turn 1: Speed 16 on 1, begin cloaking, hold Ss as Gs Speed 13 on 7, for yo-yo effect

Head towards him under cloak and try to end the turn about 4-5 hexes away. On turn 2, recharge the one batt you had to use turn 1 (the TFH doesn't need to do

this ), plot speed 26 (till 6), 19, 9, 4 at 8-impulse intervals thereafter. This plot will give you movement for the entire decloak period, with an exponential drop thereafter. Throw 2 into HET (so you can upgrade your Gs) and everything else into tractors. This strategy kills through sheer shock value alone, because the uninitiated don't see it coming and they get tagged. In the case of the Orion, you may catch him putzing along undoubled, peroccupied with how he's going to damage you and he may assume that you wouldn't dare come out of cloak next to him (it gives him a dose of his own audacity).

I guarantee this is a deadly little trick and you will anchor good players and feed them 100 on turn 2, although skilled players who have seen it before will learn how to avoid it, so it is relegated to gadget play status (although a potent gadget play) and not a bread and butter-type of a strategy.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:28 am: Edit

John wrote: >I guarantee this is a deadly little trick and you will anchor good players and feed them 100 on turn 2>

I'm not seeing how you get inside of R4 on anyone with this. T1, you are moving, what, 14 hexes? That lets your opponent pick whatever range they want from you on T1 (likely greater than 4), and the second turn move plot isn't going to let you catch anyone, especially after they see T2 start with you uncloaking at speed 26, at which point they shoot you with the best shot they have and leave. And maybe hit you in the face with a bunch of drones that you can't shoot down :-)

I mean, like, sure, it *might* work if someone runs right up to you, but even if you end T1 at R1, your opponent is probably moving fast enough to be out of tractor range by the time you have your AFC up, and has probably messed you up something fierce already.

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:08 pm: Edit

The thing with this play is that people walk up to it unsuspecting, so the range is not an issue. I have anchored litterally dozens of people with this maneuver, because its effectiveness comes mostly from surprise; people never imagine that such a thing would work, so they approach thinking that they have the Romulan pinned under cloak and a possible turn 2 anchor bid never crosses their mind. As a result, they may ease a little off of the speed and not bother with any tractor power. When the speed 26 decloak starts, they have 6 impulses to avoid dying and for the unwary it probably won't matter, because they probably put the final nail in the coffin in EA.

I think a big part of its advantage is psychological; people just assume maybe subconsciously that a cloaked Romulan is a slow, cowering target who's not a threat to anyone and they focus upon the task of rooting him out from under cloak, in between irritated glances at their watch and gestures towards the judge.

I know of no other recommendation for this strategy other than the words of Ardak Kumerian, which appear on the cover of every tournament rules set: "the only valid test is comat; the only valid result is victory." Perhaps a bit pompous and mis-guided, but applicable in this case as it has been battle-tested a lot and people routinely behave exactly as you assume they would not; they walk right into it obliviously. The obvious response would be "yeah, but what kind of morons were these opponents?" The answer is, every walk of SFB life from fodder to Ace.

Now all that being said, I'm not trying to suggest that this is some new unbeatable strategy, because it's not; in fact it's not really new at all and it's

certainly not unbeatable, but it is a great trick for the Romulan to have in his repertoire, just so long as he never tries to elevate it beyond the status of trick play. That's all I can really say for this can of worms I seem to have opened up

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Carl,

IMO, your biggest mistake in our game was bolting your torps on turn 2. That prompted an almost immediate HET(had to wait a couple imp for 8 imp delay from HET #1) with a r2 strike on your nearly down shield. Those plasmas were much more useful in the tubes than they were firing at an undamaged rear shield. If you had launched them, at least I wouldn't have had a free run at your hurt shield, even if they were never gonna hit me.

Brian

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 06:14 pm: Edit

John, the problem with the turn 2 uncloak and anchor is that anyone worth their salt should have figured out that if they end close to the Rom at EOT turn 1, he's going to try this. What *else* does a Rom that cloaks on turn 1 have up his sleeve?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:24 pm: Edit

John wrote: >The thing with this play is that people walk up to it unsuspecting, so the range is not an issue.>

I'm not seeing that so much. I mean, like, yeah, it is certainly possible, but it doesn't strike me as that likely. T1, you aren't even taking the center of the map (only moving 12-13 hexes total). Your opponent, seeing you cloaked and slow, is going to get to range, like, 4 or 5. If they have disruptors, they'll shoot you at R5 for some free damage ('cause R5 is the same as R15 to disruptors). If they don't have disruptors, they'll hold fire and still likely stay out of R3. So you end T1 at, like, R4 or 5. T2 starts, your opponent is probably going fast and has some heavy weapons armed. If you are both moving 26+ early, you will fly over each other, and your opponent will get to take a R0 or 1 (+cloak shift) shot against you before your AFC comes up, and probably get out to R3 before you get AFC up (at which point even 5 batteries can probably stop the tractor). If you HET to stay close, you likely get hit in the face by a bunch of seeking weapons right before you get AFC up (as you can't weasel, due to high speed and HET, and you can't shoot weapons till impulse 6). Or, conversely, they'll just shoot you at R4 and turn off, running away, as you rapidly declerate, they get room to run and weasel as needed.

> I have anchored litterally dozens of people with this maneuver, because its effectiveness comes mostly from surprise; people never imagine that such a thing would work, so they approach thinking that they have the Romulan pinned under cloak and a possible turn 2 anchor bid never crosses their mind.>

I mean, like, I suppose it is possible, but if I saw my Romulan opponent cloak and move slowly on T1, I'd end the turn at, like, R4 or 5 on the oblique with my turn mode satisfied (which is really easy to do if my opponent is only moving 12-13 hexes on T1). If they stay cloaked, I overrun them for a phaser at R0 shot, knowing that the Romulan has 15+ power in cloak. If they uncloak on impulse 1 (most likely situation), I avoid R3 as best I can. If I have seeking weapons, I make the Romulan eat (or decel/weasel) them before he can shoot them if he is moving faster than speed 4. If I have heavy weapons armed (likely, as I probably didn't use any batteries or phasers on T1), I shoot at R4 and turn off, running and throwing things in the way.

>When the speed 26 decloak starts, they have 6 impulses to avoid dying and for the unwary it probably won't matter, because they probably put the final nail in the coffin in EA.>

Or, like, they have 6 impulses to overrun you, feed you a bunch of seeking weapons that you can't do anything about, and shoot you at close range and get out to R3+ before your AFC comes up (at which point their 5 batteries and 2 allocated tracotor power breaks any tractor attempt).

>I think a big part of its advantage is psychological; people just assume maybe subconsciously that a cloaked Romulan is a slow, cowering target who's not a threat to anyone and they focus upon the task of rooting him out from under cloak, in between irritated glances at their watch and gestures towards the judge.>

You start T2 under cloak. I'd never assume that my opponent is going to stay cloaked--if you keep the cloak powered on T2, you are neither fast enough or tractor possible enough to be threatening--I can just overrun you and phaser you at R0 and lose nothing in return. If you don't power the cloak on T2, which is what I am assuming you are going to do, T2 is just like it would be if you didn't cloak on T1, except there isn't already plasma on the map and I have an advantageous map position.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 08:42 pm: Edit

I have to agree with Peter on this one. I can't see anyone falling for it. What else is a cloaked Rom going to do on T2?

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 02:16 am: Edit

Well I don't know what to say about it other than, like many unorthodox strategies, it is much more effective on the map than on the discussion board, and that's probably where I should have left it.

Peter, I think you look at it from the perspective of a Kzinti captain, who should never have the sadistic pleasure of a Romulan trying o do this to him, because it would be suicide. Against other ships, notably the ISC, it has proven effective on the map. If I had to fly against an ISC in an important game, would I use this strategy? I honestly don't know, definitely a game-time decision. I certainly would only do it if I anticipated success, and certainly not just so I could show it off.

A great time to use might be Saturday Patrol at Origins, for example. The TFH is not really famous for its Saturday Patrol performances, due to the potentially long battles it can encounter, and this can result in a very quick kill, as I've said. So, like most strategies, external forces will play a role in whether or when they are used and while I felt it was worth it (at the time) to mention this strategy as a workable piece of TFH arsenal, given the right conditions, I would not recommend it as doctrine, which is a stance I've clearly stated since the first post. Definitely something that should be kept away from those who slavishly turn to "the Book" like an Eighteen-Century Admiral to "Fighting Instructions" for guidance in all of their decisions. It's simply another application of the flexibility of what is IMO the most flexible ship in the tournament.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 03:08 am: Edit

There are three things about unorthdox tactics:

1) They are usually "Stupid" and will only work if the enemy lets them work...Which happenes with surprising frequency.

2) They're usually fatal to the one trying to use them, if #1 doesn't apply.

3) They never work twice the same way. When was the last time you heard of the "Trojan Horse" working? (Starts humming a medly of songs from, "Monty Python and the Holy Grail")

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:19 pm: Edit

John wrote: >Well I don't know what to say about it other than, like many unorthodox strategies, it is much more effective on the map than on the discussion board, and that's probably where I should have left it.>

Meh. This is a tactics discussion forum, so we might as well discuss tactics :-)

In the grand scheme, I mean, yeah, I can see it working once and a while if your opponent kind of falls right into it, but for the most part, it looks like one of those crazy yet gutsy plans that will fail 90% of the time, but when it works, it really

works.

>Peter, I think you look at it from the perspective of a Kzinti captain, who should never have the sadistic pleasure of a Romulan trying o do this to him, because it would be suicide. Against other ships, notably the ISC, it has proven effective on the map.>

Might work out against the ISC (i.e. cloaking on T1), 'cause it keeps them from firing the PPD on T1 and hoses them if they accientally arm envelopers (Gorn maybe too, but again, only if they arm an enveloper on T1), but also gives them a lot more seperation on T2. Against drone/disruptor ships, it isn't going to do so hot. Lyrans will just overrun you on T1. Might work vs Hydrans nicely. Feds will be psyched, 'cause they get to shoot you at R4 without eating plasma, HET, and run away.

I think cloaking on T1 as the Romulan is sketchy in most situations as it gives up the initiative too much--you let your opponent have too much map and you don't threaten them on T1 at all--if you are cloaked, you can't launch plasma, so your opponent can take any range he wants. The Orion often does well cloaking on T1 to avoid drone launches and stuff, but the Orion isn't necessarily stapled to plasma tactics that require map position.

Really, I think the only situations where a Romulan might benefit from cloaking on T1 is against someone who has armed an enveloper (or, ya know, 2 OL Hellbores) and maybe the ISC.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Peter. Won't work against the Hydran as you'll just uncloak with 2 Sting-2 fighters right on top of you. I can honestly say that in tournament play I have *NEVER* had an opponent cloak against my Hydran and win the game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Oh, yeah, that. Stingers. Yeah. Good point. Cloaking vs a Hydran with fighters is never a good idea. So scratch the it is good against a Hydran idea. Unless he OL's both HB's in EA :-)

-Peter

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Against Hydran stingers you need to be at least 1 hex away from them when you decide to cloak out. If you move (away from them) every impulse in the fade in period, you will make the range to the stingers 3, and that shot is not devestating.

If the fighters are dead cloaking against the Hydran can be good, but the HB is an

excellent sub hunting weapons.

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:17 pm: Edit

I don't think it will work against an ISC player unless it snags a turn 1 enveloper.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Well, the thought is that the ISC generally wants to PPD you on T1 and then keep you away with plasmas while you reload. If the Romulan is cloaked on T1, no PPD on T1 (and if he does have an enveloper, that much the better) and no plasma launch on 1--basically, the game starts much closer (bad for the ISC) and with the ISC off its PPD cycle.

I don't know if it is a great idea or anything, but I think cloaking on T1 will be good against the ISC if it is going to be good against anyone.

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 03:56 am: Edit

I will say that the underrun has proven very effective against a wide range of ISC players, and the anchor rate is quite high for reasons cited by Peter: the game starts in close with no ill PPD effects. In this case, map position in relation to the corners is irrelevant; if the ISC is sitting squarely in the center of the map, he is still going to get anchored.

What does matter is map position in relation to the TFH. Ideally the ISC will want to position himself behind the TFH at the start of each turn, flying away and even better if he can position himself somewhere off the centerline. This forces an HET into the attack for the TFH, and not a very clean one if the ISC is off-center, so escapability is high and the ISC's plasma arcs will still come into play. The PPD of course will not, but being overly concerned with finding a good PPD shot when the TFH comes out is probably one of the leading causes of ISC death against the underrun.

I believe that if the ISC takes care of his maneuver in a manner described above, the success rate of this strategy can be reduced almost to zero. Where the ISC goes terribly wrong is by getting close, thinking his plasmas will be a deterrent to uncloaking and trying to find a way to keep tat PPD pointed at the Romulan. The cloak underrun is not a PPD fight and if the ISC acknowledges this, keeps his speed up and maintains escapable angles, he should win the fight.

I think that every Romulan should try the underrun as a great exercise in cloaking and uncloaking offensively but, and I will reiterate my stance from the beginning, it is not the ultimate Romulan strategy against anyone.

Underrun opponents:

Fed: this will turn into a blood bath. Better make sure you force a bigtime commit

from him and hope you outshoot him. Romulan usually wins an exchange of 50-70 internals with a Fed, due to the nature of weapons (plasmas dominate photons in a game of criples). Not a good choice for the underrun. I've underrun one of these before, but not in the context of a deliberate turn one strategy.

ISC: prime choice. His turn mode gives you maneuver preference, his crunch power is minimal and his major weapon is nullified. I've underrun lots of these.

Hydran: ick. Would never try to underrun one of these.

Lyran: this is an interesting one. The underrun can work against a greedy Lyran, but the strategy revolves around bait and switch: you offer him an enticing ESG ram and setup a chase over the turn break, which will become an anchor. As you come screaming out of cloak and he chases, shuttles are deployed to mitigate the ram, followed by an HET directly back into him with lots of anchor. It can succeed, but the only reason to do it would be to show off and claim bragging rights, which is never a good basis for strategy outside of JFF FTF matches. I have underrun one of these.

Tholians: yuck. Why would I ever try to underrun one of these???

Kzinti: ouch. Never even thought of trying this.

Klingon: doable, but risky. Too many other effective mainstream options here. I've underrun one of these.

Seltorian: very anchorable, although I'd prefer to give him the opportunity to waste his power on long-range shots, then punish him for it. Only Seltorians that hold their fire for up-close and personal shots scare me in the TFH. I've underrun one of these.

BP: even if you fleece em out of an EPT, they have too much crunch power to make this worthwhile, as well as potential counter cloaks to make it meaningless. Never tried.

Shark: ouch. Never tried.

Aux: cloak is great against this guy, but not the underrun. Never tried.

Jindarian: I only mention this one, because it is ready-made for an underrun, were it to be sanctioned. I anchored one of these.

So I will advocate the underrun as an alternative, because I think people are selling it short and for that reason only, but I would never try to move it into the realm of official Romulan doctrine. I think that it is at best second-best in almost any matchup (and sometimes not even that), but in an environment where

alternatives are demanded, it should be remembered.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 04:59 am: Edit

There is one ship that might be able to under-run a Hydran. The TKE, drop the T-bomb, set for "Size-Class 6", then loop back and run through it yourself. If the Stingers want to hit it, it kills them and the TKE can have a brick up to cover the damage. If they break off then he can uncloak.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 05:20 am: Edit

That's an interesting idea about the t-bomb and the Hydran, although if his fighters are on the board, the t-bomb will not be enough to keep them off of you if you don't manage to kill them with your initial drop. If not, I would imagine that you would probably cripple the Hydran shortly before he makes you a real Romulan. The good news is that glory was had by all

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 08:09 am: Edit

Stephen. And why exactly would the Stingers fly within detection range of a known T-bomb?

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 11:41 am: Edit

I think his point is that they won't. Which will provide that precious extra hex or two needed to uncloak without exploding.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:29 am: Edit

Brian: Bingo!

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:06 am: Edit

But that's really only a temporary reprieve if you drive the fighters off like that. Then, assuming you connect on the anchor (and the more you're willing to slow down, of course, the better your chances), you have to make the ugly decision about firing your phasers. If the Hydran has cycled hellbores (very likely, unless he overloaded in EA on turn 1 for some reason), you probably have no choice, because his return fire is going to clean out your phasers. If he has fired hellbores, you might be able to save your remaining phasers for the fighters, but you probably won't be able to get both of them, and you'll almost certainly be down your remaining tractor (the one that didn't anchor the Hydran). If you have a big slowdown, they will almost certainly catch you this turn, since the whole pass is unfolding very early in an underrun setting.

Also, the fighters are only part of the problem here, the hellbores being the other huge part, and in fact the decisive part. Say on impulse 7 you land your anchor and launch everything, then dump your phasers into him in direct fire (you can't hold onto them for a follow-up post plasma). He reciprocates with 3xstd fusion, 1xOL (batts), 5xph-1, 2xph-G, 1xstd HB, 1xOL HB (batts). That's, maybe 84 points from the non-HB DF (44 non-armor internals). Bye bye tractor #1. Then

another 27 or so internals from the hellbores (I don't have the charts handy). Bye bye tractor #2. Your phaser alpha does about 33 damage, maybe, for 3 internals. Next impulse, the newly-liberated Hydran sideslips and takes the 90 points on a flank shield for 60 in. He's crippled, but still serviceable and his fighters are completely unmanageable at this point, assuming he didn't detonate you outright.

So maybe try this stunt against a Hydran who's known for routinely overloading both hellbores on turn 1 (I personally know of no such creature), but if the hellbores are still alive, there's no hope of coming out of such a collision alive, much less ahead, as far as I can see. So, if the hellbores are silent, you can land an anchor and give a little better than you get, even without phasers, and still have phasers left to deal with the fighters, but I think trying this against a Hydran is crossing the threshold from bold to suicidal and it takes a lot of creative script-writing for me to setup a situation in my head in which it could pay-off early on. Later in the battle could be a whole different story, but in the ugly and arbitrary world of all-other-factors-being-equal, this should be lopsided in the Hydran's favor.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:42 am: Edit

Didn't say it was a good idea, just that if there was a ship that might be able to get away with an under-run it's the TKE, because of the combination of Cloak/T-Bomb/R-Torp/Power Curve.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:52 am: Edit

Fair enough, the TKE does have a pretty nice power curve for anchors and that's a creative use of the t-bomb.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:24 am: Edit

The TKE (nor any ship) should try to tractor a Hydran centerline forward. Off the #2/#6, the damage is significantly reduced (-2 Fus, 1 Ph-G) so the 2nd tractor hit is much less likely. Nonetheless, the plasma won't kill the TLM while the fighters WILL kill the TKE (R0 through down shield).

Also keep in mind that the Hydran will likely have 2 SS prepared. Personally, I'd launch both and just eat the plasma (shooting down a launched shuttle) knowing my fighters will finish the job.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:45 am: Edit

I guess I'm confused about why the TKE wouldn't just drop the tractor after landing the plasma, and wander away to prevent the fighters from getting a point black shot. Also keep in mind the possibility of a r2 tractor. The hydran requires a lot of power to turn on it's weapons. And, if the TKE does a good job of positioning itself, it could force the Hydran to HET to get a shot. Making it much easier to get a r2 tractor, or possibly eliminating the need for one altogether.

I think that I'd stay under turn 2, to obtain a better position. Juking the fighters,

for a turn 2 anchor seems unlikely to me. This also has the advantage of possibly convincing the Hydran to shoot me while I'm under. That will make a turn 3 anchor much easier.

Just for the record, I'm not really advocating this as a "winning" strategy, but just fleshing out the possibilities. Just dismissing it as "not possible" is a sure way to eat crow some day.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 11:09 am: Edit

Brian said:

Just for the record, I'm not really advocating this as a "winning" strategy, but just fleshing out the possibilities. Just dismissing it as "not possible" is a sure way to eat crow some day.

Well said! I think the problem with deploying the t-bomb complicates the whole positioning, making a Hydran centerline more likely and a TKE HET, rather than a Hydran HET the most likely. If you take the t-bomb out of the equation, a big reason for flying the TKE, rather than the TFH is lost, although the TKE can at least hold its breath longer in a multi-turn cloak if it wants to work for better position.

Stiff-arming the Hydran with a range 2 tractor is always ideal, but then you run the risk of jeopardizing your anchor possibilities altogether. The TKE would obviously drop the tractor and try to get out of Dodge after the plasma volley, but it won't be going too far if it sold out for the anchor in EA, which would probably be necessary if it's angling for any kind of a range 2 tractor/HET combo. And if the Hydran did what Hydrans do to ships that don't yield the right of way, you probably won't have much left to fend off the fighters, this turn or next. I guess that's my biggest concern is that too much punishment will happen at the hands of the ship and the fighters will just come along to brain you where you lie afterwards.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:11 pm: Edit

I've had very good luck with charging to range 2 from a Hydran and anchoring it in the TKE.

I have, or so I've been told, the shortest win in RAT history, after gutting Sheehy's Hydran on impulse 20 of turn 1.

Your four phaser 1s are there ONLY to kill Stingers. Really.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:25 am: Edit

And don't forget the TKE's six batteries, applying that extra bit of 'Ump' at the right moment is really nice.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:48 am: Edit

Ken

How much can you get into a range 2 turn 1 anchor? Against my bog standard Hydran, I just don't see it happening. But then I PLAN to go in on BP on turn 1 (I don't always DO it, but I plan for it).

By the by, you HAVE to hold the Hydran till the Plasma hits. Any competent Hydran will have 2 WWs warm, by turn 2 he might have 3 (2 would be plenty for a KE though). A quick turn and slip and your anchor goes for nothing.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:00 am: Edit

It's not a tactic for general use, just for those special occasions when you're up against somebody either not prepared for it, or as a "Surprise Gambit" to try and catch you opponent off-guard (Something that won't happen if it's a standard opening).

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:04 am: Edit

I'm not sure if one turn 1 anchor is a very solid indicator of a strategy's success, or for that matter, if the success is even indicative of the strategy employed. Not to take anything away from a 20-impulse anchor, which is of course glorious, but Hydrans are probably more prone to dying at the hands of BP on Turn 1 than possibly any other ship in the game (caveat: this is not to say that it is a likely event).

The Hydran as a ship really likes to get close and he has the hardware to make it pay off and the plasma boat, as Ken demonstrated, has the firepower to make him sorry, if things go wrong. In the case of TKEs and TFHs with their forward-facing arcs, you have an ugly scenario where neither side wants to turn off and if the Hydran is a bad player, is overly-reckless, or even a good player who simply makes a small miscalculation, the results can be catastrophic. The Romulan certainly has many opportunities to blow it as well in such a heightened tactical environment, but turn 1 anchors are always a collaborative effort and not insulated to individual Romulan strategies.

I think anyone who goes into a game with the intention of running a Romulan over on turn 1, should go back to the drawing board (probably some time shortly after impulse 20), because you're just diving whole-heartedly into your opponenent's strength. It's like an unexpected visitation from ISC Nirvana. Charging a Romulan on turn 1 with the intention of extracting all kinds of material and positional resources from him and roughing him up a little in the process, and running him over if he really insists is quite different, but charging up those fusions and going into seeking weapon mode from the get-go doesn't make sense to me.

By Stephen J. Schrader (Wyvern) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:51 am: Edit

"The problem with playing chicken..."

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:33 am: Edit

Actually, I like playing chicken with the FH. Usually the Rom has folded up by the middle of turn two...But thats with a Shark...

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Wow, you like playing dangerous games! How much plasma would you be willing to eat for the opportunity to force the TFH under? I don't deny that the Shark is a tough customer for the TFH, but it's not a slamdunk and turn 2 is usually the plasma player's ball, should he wish to run with it. But then again I suppose that assumes no rousing games of plasma goalie on turn 1... Okay, I'll dispense with

the sports analogies now

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Quote:

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:24 am Also keep in mind that the Hydran will likely have 2 SS prepared.

Quote:

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:48 am Any competent Hydran will have 2 WWs warm, by turn 2 he might have 3.

I guess there must be a corrolary to that "Hydrans never miss in the Tactics Discussion Thread" that states "Hydrans always have the right type of special shuttle prepared, and always in sufficient quantities."

By Frank DeMaris (Kemaris) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Richard: You mean you have to decide ahead of time? You don't just put two

points into shuttles and decide what they were when you need them?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Richard. You can always have a WW ready for 2.1 if he launches 80-100 at range 10. I just strongly dislike 10+ turn games so chose to limit my ability to protract the engagement (i.e. if you have weasels, you might be inclined to use them, which will tend to add 2 turns to the game for each used).

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Turn 2 Impulse 1, you can have two SS ( if you held `em on turn 1, thanks to WS-III ) you can power up two WWs over turns 1&2 for 1 each. Assmuming you've got 4 shuttles and started on WS-III.

The real trouble is that you're putting four points of power on turn 2 into something other than movement which will tend to be picked up by an enemy who recalculates your EA, so he'll steer clear from effective SS ranges until he knows that you're either not holding `em, have launched them poorly in frustration or spent so much power holding `em that the enemy has spent more than it'll gain from their use. It doesn't help much to hold SS if persistant R8 sniping crushes your shuttlebay.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Conversely two held SS and two PSS can make quite an effective "coup de grace" weapon as it's very unexpected.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:58 pm: Edit

MJC - If the Rommie steers clear of the Hydran on the 1st 2 turns, then that

entire anchor thingee will be avoided

I like to engage Hydrans from ranges 4-5 in plasma ships. Any further out and they can make your heavy torps hit for minimal damage. Any closer and you MUST succeed in that anchor. If anything goes wrong and you find yourself centerlined at ranges 0-2, you are dead, dead, dead.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 07:59 am: Edit

MJC.

1. In the tournament zone, you are always as WSIII

2. Few ships in the tourney can hide power as well as the Hydran

3. Its a fixed map, so if the Hydran WANTS to close, there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:17 am: Edit

Yeah, I had slipped into thinking on a floating map.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:44 am: Edit

Force him under??? hehe...no, just kill him right there.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Hey, thanks for all playing the "Mister Obvious" Game.

The discussion was a turn ONE anchor attempt. One person posted that the Hydran would have 2xSS, another posted that it'd have 2xWW.

And in answer to the "You HAVE to hold him until the plasma hits" comment...

That turns out not to be the case.

You have to hold him until your plasma is guaranteed to hit. When launching from range 2, that is often a single impulse.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:38 pm: Edit

55 (90-35) will hurt, but won't kill anyone. Even if it worked, I doubt if the TKE would survive to rearm a torp.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Quote:

55 (90-35) will hurt, but won't kill anyone. Even if it worked, I doubt if the TKE would survive to rearm a torp.

this sorta depends on if the Stingers are already deployed or not, and if they can be avoided or not. If the Stingers aren't deployed.. this is clearly game over for the Hydran. I'm not sure why you are saying 90-35, but assume you meant batts. If so, I sorta doubt you have batts left since you are tractored. In any case, 55 ints followed by 4p1's and 2-3p3's at r2 will make the Hydran combat ineffective vs a cloaker. If the Stingers have been deployed and well positioned such that they have to be shot, then this is a bit more dicey for the TKE. I think that outcome will depend on whether or not the TKE can still pay to cloak and rearm. It's probably unnecessary to actually move, so it only needs to have about 20 or so power left. Assuming the Stingers don't get a good r2 shot, this seems fairly likely to me.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:32 pm: Edit

55 Internals on a Hydran (remember, the phaser-1s are to kill the stingers) mean game over vs. the TKE if the Stingers are no longer a threat (remember: those Ph-1s are to kill the stingers.

The TKE can cloak two turns, and while a HB can hurt you when you're cloaked, it can't hurt you enough when the TLM has only one left.

When the big torp comes out 3 turns later, the hydran can't stop the pain.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 04:34 pm: Edit

My wins with this:

Game 1: Stingers weren't out. Hydran tractored at range 2 on the spine. 71 internals went through the #2 shield, which had gotten 2 phaser 3s and a phaser 1 into it. Over the next three impulses, I fired phaser 1s into the down shield, for about 14 more in. Hydran was down to one fusion beam, one non-bearing phaser G, and about 4 power. Both Stingers died in the hangars at about 60 internals in.

The Hydran did fire 5 phaser 1s, a phaser G, one fusion, and a pair of standard hellbores into me. I took a volley of 8 and a volley of 17 from the 'bore.

Game 2: Hydran was shoving his fighters forward in a tractor beam, dropped tractor on them at range 8. The fighters were trying to do a range 4/range 2 jump. When they sped up, I fired 2 phaser 1s at each of them. One died, the other crippled.

Hydran turned in to me 2 impulses after speeding up to speed 26 (on 23) I applied tractor to strength 3 at range 2. He broke free, and I was reasonably certain I'd burned off his contingent HET. He fired at me at range 2, off centerline. Fed into my 4 point brick, he did light internals, no overloads due to fighting off tractor.

I launched plasmas on impulse 25 at range 2.

He didn't HET; plasmas hit him on impulse 27 on a rear shield for 90, I fired 4 phaser 3s into his shield at range 3 while turning off, doing a handful of internals (didn't kill the second 'bore, but he was down to the offside phaser-G again, and not enough power to move and chew gum) Either way, Hydran ate 65-70+, I ate ~20 after armor. I win that exchange.

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Ken:

What if the Hydran had the sense to bring even 1 weasel to the 2nd party. I wouldn't drag the fighters in like that, but if you keep the angle enough to stop and pop, he'd have been golden.

as for the 1st

Anyone who plays pop-tart with the stingers early deserves this sort of thing. Where the heck was his power? He didn't even have 2 fusions ready?

I have never understood the reluctance of Hydrans to use weasels, (I for one use them quite frequently). If you're going in there you NEED that weasel(s) (you can win after a range 1 damage swap, but not range 2).

Also there's nothing wrong with showing plasma your #1 shield, you NEED a fufilled turn mode in close, failing that, get movement priority.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Richard. I have defeated a TKE in such a situation. With 6 shuttle boxes, it is very possible for a shuttle or two to survive the volley. Keep in mind too, that the TKE will be hurt at that range and greatly slowed under cloak - this makes the sub-hunting easier, even for a crippled TLM - that gats will survive, afterall.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:50 pm: Edit

It should also be noted that it would be highly unusual for a TLM to lose its fighters after 60 internals. On a single massive volley, it takes an average of 79 internals to finish off the shuttle bay. On multiple volleys, the average is even higher.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:24 pm: Edit

If the Hydran get's anchored at r2 with the Stinger's in the launch tubes, it really doesn't matter if they get blown up or not. The Hydran is toast, imo. It's either gonna take 60 followed by 25 in phasers, or if it phasers the plasma down, it's not gonna do significant internals to the TKE. Either scenario ends poorly for the Hydran.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:39 am: Edit

Drew: In the case of item 2, because he broke off from the tractor attempt, I suspect he assumed the 90 points were all fakes to draw out the weasel.

They weren't. He gambled, and lost.

Both players in question were Aces in the Hydran. Not saying that they'd underestimate the situation again, but neither one of them had the concept "Geeze, he could anchor me..." in their mental lexicon.

This is something I see a lot in Hydrans. They are so convinced of the overwhelming force of their range 2 or less firepower that they simply didn't prepare for it.

I get similar results when flying the ISC with an "inside out" opening. The first time someone sees it, they usually go "What the hell?" Followed by "Oh, crap..."

I've also used an EPT to set up a turn 1 anchor in the Gorn. It didn't work due to

oddities of the movement chart.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:27 am: Edit

I will note that I have *never* been anchored with my Fighters still in the bay - they are only good as my 8th shield when they're in the air (CHULL being the 7th shield).

I will also note that I would be more cautious vs a Gorn or TFH - its an extra 10 points of plasma and they have sufficient phasers to handle the fighters AND do extra internals to the ship.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:31 am: Edit

How do you use an EPT to setup a turn 1 anchor? If you are going to bring any tractor power to the fight, you pretty much need to rely upon the other guy to do all the work closing in. If this is the case, you would need to present a seriously enticing target to lure him in, and nearly fully-loaded Gorns on turn 1 just don't fit that description, no matter how you costume them, in my opinion. Limping away at slow speed may excite the predatory instincts in some people, but that's iffy and it would require an HET to get back into position for any kind of an anchor.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:30 am: Edit

I think that Ken hit it on the nose. Too many Hydran's think that they "own" r2 and in. Personally I've found myself fairly vulnerable at r2 in the Hydran. Most other TC's have a very similar damage output at r2, and some have more(ie. Big Plasma). Another thing to keep in mind is that plasma typically presents a mizia opportunity. That is the Hydrans' worst enemy.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:54 am: Edit

John - I armed an EPT S, held a G (9 points in weapons), plotted a 17-31 movement plot (SC up was around 22)- 22 in movement, 2 in tractors, 4 in HK, and 1 point extra for special shuttle on turn 1.

While I spent 4 on HK, I did come in with AFC off. This WILL convince the person that you're facing that he's fighting against an EPT ballet, not an anchor.

I carefully "mistimed" the EPT launch, such that the target could duck in to range 4 with an alpha strike and HET out. They aren't going to kill my batteries. (Clearly, you don't do this against the Fed!)

They run in, HET, run out - their HET costs them reserve power, my speed change hits at about the same time. I bring up AFC and kick in the burners. Get to range 3 or 2. In particular, if they're used to the idea that they're facing an EPT ballet, and they know they have to HET, most disruptor ships won't have full overloads, so the alpha is survivable.

2 allocated, plus 4 batteries is a strength 3 beam, which is more than most

people have contingently allocated against an EPT balleteer. Last point goes to upgrading the held G to an S if needed, or gets used to upgrade the speed plot to ensure range 3.

The only reason it didn't work is that our pseudo-speeds were complementary (17 for me, 13 for him) and moved on alternating impulses for the last quarter of the turn, and the target managed to stay at range 2 from the torps through the turn break. All I really needed to do was eDec and the torps would've hit - which my opponent pointed out to me at the turn break.

Is it a guaranteed opening? Nope. It was fun to try, and it's probably worth considering in your arsenal of opening moves in big plasma.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:25 pm: Edit

I ate ~20 after armor. I win that exchange.

Shhh Ken! You're gonna get the TKE to lose 5 armour in the next tourney

revision!

I get similar results when flying the ISC with an "inside out" opening.

Eh?

Too many Hydran's think that they "own" r2 and in. Personally I've found myself fairly vulnerable at r2 in the Hydran. Most other TC's have a very similar damage output at r2, and some have more(ie. Big Plasma).

Indeed. I zero energy anchored Larrey Ramey's TLM several years back at end of

turn 1 in a RAT. He wasn't pleased.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Inside-out opening:

Don't fire PPD. Launch EPT when the target is at about range 7-8. Continue closing.

Assuming the target turns off from the EPT, look at impulse chart, and fire phasers and overloaded PPD from battery power.

It concentrates your PPD damage onto one (rear) shield; if you get close enough (range 5), the phasers will likely do internals.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:11 pm: Edit

Ken, what are you doing to make them turn off? An EPT isn't enough against most opponents.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:19 am: Edit

it is if they are chickens and there are 2x20 pointers flying around also. might be a little hard to set up. But 80 flying would make most people turn off.

something like this.

Ra 10-11 env from the off side. Slip out. Ra 5-7 on the hex row G&F.

Turn in to follow torps.

By Mark Russman (Cannich) on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 03:02 am: Edit

Brett,

Just a thought:

He turns in, takes a couple of hits from the ppd, blasts you (taking the first torp), and turns/hets away. You probable lose one or more pulses, and the rest hit rear shields. If he is moving fast, the remaining torps chase in vain. He has shield damage, you have internals, and are down at least two launched torps, and your PPD. If you chase him, you have phasers and 20 points at a time to hurt him (I assume you used the Enveloper from C, and the standerd plas from B/D)...not good against D&D. If you turn off, he 'takes care of your plasma' and comes back.

Depends on your opponent, the positions of the plasma when it hits (etc), and a laundry list of factors, but its not a 100% chance of success ... IMO

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >This WILL convince the person that you're facing that he's fighting against an EPT ballet, not an anchor.>

Yeah, not really so much. Most people who know how the game works will say "Huh, his AFC is off. Either he is playing an EPT game and saving power, or trying to convince me of this when it isn't actually the case...", and then play like they would anyway, and aren't surprised when the AFC gets activated at R10 or so.

That, and/or you forget to announce the coming up of AFC when you need to, and find yourself at R4 with no AFC...

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:59 pm: Edit

As an ISC, I'll take that trade-off any day. The D&D (or whatever flavor we're talking about here) just dropped one of my shields and did internals, but to do so he ate an EPT, burned his HET, got slugged by the PPD, even if it's spread across different shields, and probably took a healthy dose of phasers from the ISC as well. On top of all that, he's down batts (HET) and phaser capacitor, and he still has to run out or weasel any plasma on the board, so it's not like he's going to be able to do anything useful while the ISC reloads. The ISC has no reason to run him down, and can just hang out and wait for him to try to close again, minus a huge swath of shielding.

The term "just shield damage" is long overdue to be added to the list of SFB famous last words, I think, and the ISC illustrates the dangers of this fallacy more graphically than anyone else.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 12:35 am: Edit

Mark:

If someone decides to eat a 40 point EPT rather than two 6 point PPD pulses, I'm generally happy to oblige them - especially when I've got 40 more points of plasma available if he wants to do the knife fight early.

After all, I'm trading 1 point of facing shield damage (2 4 point elements swapped for 7 points of EPT damage) for an additional 30 odd 'round the ship.

You aren't getting to range 3 without eating that EPT.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 01:02 am: Edit

I can see why Ken's tactic would be effective.

You go into the battle against the ISC thinking that you are going to try to get in close but that he will do everything to keep you away, and expect to maneuver and dance around plasma at range for a while, hoping to get a good position before the PPD eats your shields. When the ISC lets you close, it throws you off your game plan. Now you're committed, but there's a 40-pointer coming your way, which can be followed up with another 20+20 (or 40+20) in plasma, plus phasers and maybe shuttles, if you press the issue. If you turn off, you take the PPD on the weaker, unreinforced rear shields. If you don't, you drive through a lot of plasma and arrive at the ISC's doorstep at a point when you probably weren't prepared for the knife fight.

Like all tactics, however, it comes down to what you allocated for versus what your opponent allocated for. If you really allocated for the knife fight, you could take the 40 around without much trouble, take the other plasmas on non-facing shields, and put 50 internals (depending on which ship you have) on the ISC in exchange for 3 down shields. That game ends for the ISC the followng turn.

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 08:45 pm: Edit

I assume you will not use this agaist a BP ship that really means to anchor you

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 09:19 pm: Edit

A Hydran would just overrun you and kill you, thankful for the lack of PPD damage.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 02:19 am: Edit

Ralph: Against BP, I don't use this opening. Ballet plus PPD is just fine, thanks.

Andy: Of course the Hydran is invincible. I've read the Tactics thread long enough to know that truism. Also, hellbores never miss, the seventh shield makes it invulnerable (except to lucky die rolls of 3 on the DAC) and the Stingers do 35 points each on average at range 1.

On the other hand, I'd probably open up with the PPD at range 8 versus a Hydran and just use slips and turns to get 4-5 pulses in. He's still going to eat a PPD, 40 points of EPT damage and at least one 20 point torp.

Being willing to E-Dec and WW is part of this strategy as well; among the tricks used is killing Stingers with phasers before they become a threat.

And, as I recall, hellbores never miss, Stingers do 37 points of damage each at range 0, and the center hull makes the Hydran EEENVEEEENCIBLE.

Have I missed anything?

By Andrew Dederer (Drewster) on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 06:21 am: Edit

Well, STOPPING in front of the Hydran is low on my list of good ideas.

It's just that any tactic that says "after my opponent turns off" with the ISC is pretty problematic especially against the Hydran.

90% of messing up the ISC is disrupting his timing, getting into range 8 at the edge of his arcs, spending most of you time closing to the point "in front" of his position. Etc. Also since the closing in on turn 1 is typically very late in the turn, popping him at range 4-5 and speedy weasling comes in.

Actually I wouldn't expect to catch an ISC on turn 1 (though one enveloper isn't going to stop me, and I'll probably get stinger gats into some torp before they die). I'd settle for 1-2 rather dinged shields and some all-round scratches. In exchange, I should get one rear shield down (range 4-5 shot) and probably a handful of internals. Turn 2 probably involves weasling the last 1-2 torps and getting the fusions warm. From this point on, I'd be willing to fight at range for a

couple turns (yes, hellbores do miss, but can you COUNT on that?) The ISC has real issues doing much more than PPD damage out past range 5 and the power issues generally show about turn 3.

Beating the ISC in any ship is rarely a matter of wading through everything (unless he doesn't get it out in time). The trick is getting him to use the weapons to prevent the overrun then turning it into a battle at range 4-8 for a turn or two. The real time to overun the ISC comes a bit later, when he has maybe 2 torps, preferably when he isn't castling (though certain ships ignore the castle better than others)..

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:13 am: Edit

It's just that any tactic that says "after my opponent turns off" with the ISC is pretty problematic especially against the Hydran.

I'd extend this caveat to any tactic, in any ship, against any opponent.

OTOH, if your tactic does not have a plan for "if my opponent turns off", then you likewise have problems.

By Greg Reckenwald (Gkhan) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 03:07 pm: Edit

What are some of the more popular/effective Orion mount packages? I'm fairly new, but haven't played with or against an Orion yet. I'm thinking about trying it out on my next go, but was wondering what some effective mount packages were. What packages are good against what ships and, more importantly, not know ing who your opponent might be, what is a general 'default' pacakage?

Thanks, Greg

By Gary Bear (Gunner) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 03:32 pm: Edit

If you have access to the Tournament Book (Module T-2000) there are excellent tactical primers for all ships including Option Mounts for the Orion.

11g11 & HgH1B are the ones I see most often.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Orion packages generally break down into two main groups, "high power" and "low power." High power packages are used when you need to do a lot of direct-fire damage in a short time and can afford to burn your engines up because the game won't go very many turns. This generally means photons and (more often) hellbores. Low power packages are used either for longer games or for where you want more power available for cloaking, tractor or reinforcement. This means phasers or plasma-F, usually. Two of the forward mounts will be the chosen weapon and the third is usually a gatling phaser.

The choice of wing mounts depends entirely on what you have chosen for your

forward mounts. Normally you will take one phaser-1 because it is more useful, overall, than either a drone rack or a fusion beam. If you have a weapon hit on drone, you take a drone rack, if you have a weapon hit on torp, then you take a fusion beam. The second wing mount is only to absorb drone or torp hits so you don't have to score them on your primary weapon. Occasionally you might even fire it, but that's just gravy. Orions with a drone rack do get the two type-IV drones of any other drone using ship.

Because the primary weapons for Orions consist of hellbores, photons, plasma-F and phasers, most Orion packages are: HHg1B, PPg1f, FFg1f and 11g11. Of those, the hellbore and plasma packages are probably the overall best (photons miss and phasers are not that useful against enough opponents)

There is no such thing as a general package. The Orion is only viable because you have two packages. If you are planning to take the Orion, write your packages down somewhere before your opponent picks his ship to ensure maximum fairness, then decide which one you are going to use after he has picked his ship.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Greg wrote: >>What are some of the more popular/effective Orion mount packages? I'm fairly new, but haven't played with or against an Orion yet.>>

General Orion advice: Win quickly. General anti Orion advice: Drag out the game as long as possible. Realize that you'll never be able to out manuver him, and so a lot of the time, stopping and TACing is your best option.

>>I'm thinking about trying it out on my next go, but was wondering what some effective mount packages were.>>

The more popular ones:

-"Generic Hellbore Package": 2 Hellbores up front, a Gatling up front, and either a drone rack in each wing or a drone in one wing and a phaser in the other (the drone pads the Hellbore and sucks up some phasers). This is generally the package voted "most likely to show up" in any give game against an Orion. Good at medium ranges due to the HBs. Good up close due to the gatling. Good once a sheild is down due to the HBs.

-"Phaser Boat": One Gatling up front ('cause you can only have 1 Gatling...), the rest of the options are Phaser 1s. Good 'cause it doesn't really need to power its weapons, and so it always has a 20+ points of rienforcement up. Very good in close, ok at medium ranges.

-"The Orion That Won At Origins" Package: 2 Plasma F's up front, 1 Gatling up

front, a Fusion in one wing (pads the Plasma Fs), and a Phaser 1 in the other wing. Kind of more complicated/tricky to win with than the other ones, but very effective overall. Has trouble against folks who understand the first point I brought up (i.e. know when you need to stop and TAC).

The are lots of other wacky packages, but the three above are generally considered the "good" ones. Other semi-common packages include some kind of Photon assembly, like (Photon/Photon/Gatling/Fusion/P1) or something. You'll notice that most packages include Gatlings. Which is pretty much all you need to know about the Orion :-)

>>What packages are good against what ships and, more importantly, not know ing who your opponent might be, what is a general 'default' pacakage?>>

Most packages can do well in most situations. In tournament play, you get to have 2 packages to choose from, so you can pick a "main" package, figure out what it has trouble against, and then pick a secondary package that covers the holes of the first package.

This being said, if you are just going into a blind game, the Hellbore package is probably your best option.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 04:17 pm: Edit

If you want to take a chance, go for HPgBf - when it works, its a good 4 turn win (i.e., go for T2 and T4 range 2 alphas) Note: definately less common and a more risky package than those mentioned above; don't take against someone with a HB or PPD.

By Greg Reckenwald (Gkhan) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Thanks for all the input. Before posting this question I had done a keyword search on orions and options and read most, if not all, the hits I found in the tournament archives. (I was a little slow here at work) That being said, I learned a lot about the Orions in general and some of the different packages that players like to choose, but nothing that answered my questions specifically.

Again, thanks...all your info is very much appreciated.

GregR

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Is it generally a good idea to take a phaser-boat into a plasma fight? Obviously you can tear down any plasma torpedoes unlucky enough to cross your arcs, but then you've got nothing to hit your opponent with. What is good against BP?

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 11:35 pm: Edit

If you're not playing Tournery then remember your weapons are race specific.

Hellbores are a natural for taking down freighter shields, beleive it not. So are EPT-S and EPT-G.

Taking down freighters is mostly a question of getting BPs aboard. Don't overlook slowing him down and ramming BP filled Admins into his shuttlebay to beef up your "Boarding rate".

Orions have the ability to run the "power hog" weapons like the hellbore and the Photon when doubling the engines...although you loose the stealth bonus when you do and your cloak cost skyrockets.

If you don't want to go for engine doubling then opt for low powered weapons like drone racks (did someone say ECM drone plus stealth equals something!?!), phaser-Gs and phaser-1s. Plasma Fs are a fav' because of the holding costs.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 12:10 am: Edit

MJC, Since this is the Tournament Tactics section, it should be plain that option mounts question refers to the tournament environment. Stephen

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 01:53 am: Edit

Oops.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 07:53 am: Edit

Troy wrote: >What is good against BP?

I'd say the Hellbore package. 2HB, Gat, P1, Drn. Well, that is pretty much good against anyone, but certainly better against BP than, like, a Phaser boat.

You have good mid range damage--even at R5-8, if you shoot with the phaser side and have OLed HB's (i.e. you engage early on a turn when you knew you could get R8 without eating much plasma), you have a reasonable chance of dropping a sheild. Once that shield is down, you can snipe at range, whittling away through the down sheild, or you can go for an overrun when they are low on plasma. The gatling helps against plasma and does a lot close up. The drone rack sucks up phasers from the BP ship and might accidentally score a type IV hit in an overrun situation.

-Peter

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 09:46 am: Edit

What Peter Said. Take the Hells vs BP.

The phaser boat can work, but you have to "Juke" alot of torps to get it to work. Juke = not phaser Plasmas down but maneuver around them. (ususally requires a HET or opponent cooperation/mistakes) and take phaser shots at ra 5.

With the Hells you are happy with ra 8, and if you can get a good ra 2-4 shot (because your BP opponent made a mistake) it is usually game.

One caveat: The Hell boat takes Doubling to power the Hells. So it is on a clock. anything beyond 9 turns can get UGLY. I've flown the Orion vs Rom fight 14+ turns many times. All a Rommie has to do to make the game take that long is use a bit of specific reinforcement to keep the shields balanced. And WELL timed envelopers to keep the Orion from overruning it.

Just parking and launching will not keep the Orion away.

Example: Parked Rom vs Orion Begining of turn. The Rom has both F's hot and 1 enveloper in the tubes ra ~10-14, to Orion. (easy to set up if the Rom is parking) Approach the Rom. He has to launch the Env so it intercepts you in the 5-7 range bracket. If he doesn't, you take your RA 4 shot and wander off.

I have seen chuck and weasel many times. Launch the Drone (to kill the weasel), and slip/turn away till the Weasel is dead. Then HET back around the Env and shoot for a RA 4 battle pass. If you have to slip out and delay the pass by 5 imps to weaken F launches that is fine.

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 11:24 am: Edit

I've had success with the jackhammer (PPg1f) against BP. This configuration is very flexible and can fight effectively at ranges 8, 5, and 4.

rng - tactic vs BP 8 - 1 photon or all p1's 5 - 1 photon and all p1's or just all p1's 4 - 1-2 photons and all p1's

The big trick is to always have a credible overrun available if your opponent launches/bolts too much plasma. This ship i a very effective hack and slasher attack a range 0-2.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 06:16 pm: Edit

The problem with the phaser package against BP is that it lacks crunch and it's not scary at all. As a Romulan there is literally nothing the phaser Orion can do to

compel me to launch. I may throw out a torpedo for him to play with on his aproach, but maybe I won't. I certainly won't feel compelled to throw anything out to interecpt him in 5+ range brackets, and I would never use an EPT early on against this package - I want low-cost direct massive crunch and playing a standoff game would not at all interest me. I'd prepare a nice brick for him and forcing him onto my brick shield is really the only reason why I would even bother to launch at that point (well, that and the added benefit of keeping the pursuit angles clean and giving him an excuse to show off his HET prowess).

Once he turns off, he'd better do a LOT more than "just wander off" because I'll be hitched to his #4 like a big ole trailer and I'll be perfectly happy to sit there holding all of my plasmas and gnawing on his #4 until he's forced to do something really reckless.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to beat BP in the phaser Orion, but I think it has serious disadvantages, especially if the BP doesn't squander his load and maintains an agressive posture. I would stick with a heavier HB-type package against Romulans and either an HB package or a close range high crunch package (fusions, Fs and PhG) against Gorns.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 08:57 pm: Edit

When is the phaser-boat a good idea, then?

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 09:11 pm: Edit

It's effective where you'd ordinarily want a low power package, but plasma is not effective. Andromedan (back when that mattered), WAX, Hydran, BP.

Really the issue is, you have a high power package and a low power package. For your low power package, the question is whether you want phasers or plasma. Plasma is going to be better against Kzinti, Fed, and Lyran, which traditionally give the Orion trouble. Phasers will be better against BP (which can be tackled with hellbores), and Hydrans (which I would rather not face packing hellbores).

I don't agree that the phaser package is totally ineffective against BP. Granted it doesn't have the crunch power of hellbores or photons, but it's a low power package; it's not supposed to. Launched plasma isn't going to help that much against a plasma ship, and if you bolt the F's you are giving up effectiveness vs. phasers. If you are not launching then the Orion will come into R5, shoot phasers at you, ruin a shield and scamper off (or not, depending on when in the turn it is, and how stubborn you are about not launching). If you bolt then you are on the defensive for the next two turns, if you launch he will turn off, run out the plasma, and come back with you down a shield. You will probably end up shooting reinforcement (since he has nothing else to spend his power on) and not cracking a shield in return, certainly if you don't bolt, probably even if you do.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 08:10 am: Edit

Troy wrote:

>>When is the phaser-boat a good idea, then?>>

Most of the time, really. I mean, like, if the Orion is going to be effective, it is likely going to be effective in spite of the options, not 'cause of them. Yeah, like, different packages have different strengths and weaknesses, but Orions win and lose on their doubled engines and manuverability far more than what their particular weapons are.

What makes the Orion win more than anything (i.e. more than any particular weapon suite) is getting in one of those situations where you get a range zero overrun after getting shot on your rienforcement and taking zero internals. The phaser boat is probably better at that than most other Orions (due to having, like, 30 points of rienforcmeent up most of the time). Yeah, against plasma, this is less likely to work, but at some point, there is going to be an opportunity where your opponent is low on plasma, not cloaked, and you can HET into them, overrun them, take few if any internals, and blow a big hole in them.

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 01:34 pm: Edit

The lack of crunch power is exactly what kills the phaser boat against BP. The Orion can do a lot of things and the phaser package will give it an excess of power to play with, but one thing it most emphatically will not do against my plasma boat is take a casual range 5 shot, then scamper off unmolested. I will follow him relentlessly and deny him any useful offensive HETs while chewing up his rear shields with phasers and maintaining a hefty load of plasmas with which to greet him, should he choose to show off his HET prowess.

I would never bolt unless it was end of turn in a Romulan (followed by an immediate cloak) on a weak shield that's already proven to be lacking a brick, but otherwise that would just flush my overall strategic plan against the phaser boat down the toilet for only a possible immediate tactical bong hit. In all likelihood, I'd just continue to muscle him around the map and dare him to stop running and turn and fight.

Inevitably the latent problem with this package against BP is that it has no sustainable way to protect its #4 shield and once that drops, it gets to choose between a quick heroic death, or a slow and miserable one. The outcome of the battle rests with the BP's decisions and that's always a sign of a bad matchup; does he use his plasmas tactically in situational launches, or does he hold them and force the Orion to play the entire game defensively? If he doesn't squander his launches, the relative weights of the two ships will tell. BP is a highly strategic group of ships and this matchup, I believe, demonstrates how BP can dominate if it adheres to strategic discipline in the face of the lethally toxic tactical cravings that the feisty phaser boat can present. Impatience in this case just leads to frustration and wrongful death lawsuits for the BP.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 01:47 pm: Edit

it's gonna be really hard to chase with no #1 shield...

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 02:08 pm: Edit

John wrote: >>I will follow him relentlessly and deny him any useful offensive HETs while chewing up his rear shields with phasers and maintaining a hefty load of plasmas with which to greet him, should he choose to show off his HET prowess.>>

You certainly have an argument, but if you are keeping your plasmas on board (i.e. holding them and forcing the Orion to play defensively), how are you preventing the Orion from coming to range 2, blasting your #1 sheild for, what, 50 some odd damage (7 P1's plus 5-7 P3's) and HETing the heck out of there, leaving you the fantastic choice of bolting on possibly a heavily reinforced sheild or chasing the Orion with no #1 sheild (and some internals to boot). The phaser boat can pretty easily have speed 31, an HET, 20 rienforcement, and still ~5 power in tractors to foil most R2 tractor attempts.

The trick with the Orion is that as he comes in at you and gets to R2, you have to gamble--is his 20 point brick on the facing 30 box sheild? Is he going to shoot at 2 and HET out giving you a different rienforced sheild?

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 02:09 pm: Edit

"it's gonna be really hard to chase with no #1 shield..."

Yeah, hopefully the phaser boat won't forget to bring a buddy along with him that has the crunch power to do it

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 02:30 pm: Edit

Certainly a good point, Peter, I will deploy plasmas to turn him off initially. The problem for him is to become offensive again after his initial turn-off.

I guess the biggest problem I have is the assumption that the Orion can simply come on in, shoot, then run away, and repeat the process each turn like he's fighting a starbase or something and totally dictating the battle pass.

My argument is that the phaser Orion will have the opportunity for exactly one reasonably clean battle pass in this matchup (on Turn 1). After that, barring dazzling success, he's going to have to make some serious sacrifices to become offensive again. It's not difficult, even with speed plots of 20 and 26, to prevent the Orion from breaking off and if his only way of getting back into the fight is an HET, that's a problem; either he's HET-ing directly back into the BP, which means death by incineration, or he's doing an oblique HET which will either completely deny FA, or allow only a passing glance at a relatively weak range. If he were

toting a heavier package, say photons or hellbores, this would be an entirely different story.

Another way the Romulan in particular can blunt the phaser boat's initial pass is just to cloak out on Turn 1. The TFH can do this and still keep up a reasonable speed, as of course can the TKE. That creates a whole series of power-plotting dilemmas for the Orion (which may well be its biggest charm) and he just doesn't have an easy way to keep the Romulan pinned under and he definitely won't be an effective sub hunter either, if he wants to play that game.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 04:21 pm: Edit

John wrote: >>I guess the biggest problem I have is the assumption that the Orion can simply come on in, shoot, then run away, and repeat the process each turn like he's fighting a starbase or something and totally dictating the battle pass.>>

Oh, sure--like, the Orion certainly can't do that. But unless you are launching plasmas to keep him worrying, zigging, and dodging, he can shoot your #1 with pretty much impunity. Heck, even at R5, you have a tough guessing situation--is he going to shoot or get closer. If he shoots at 5, 7 P1's will knock most of a sheild off. If he then turns off and you chase/shoot his #4, you aren't getting anywhere if his #4 is reinforced (a lot of what makes an Orion successful is knowing/gambling on which sheild to rienforce)--you have traded most of a sheild for not much except maybe a positional advantage which you may or may not be able to capitalize on.

-Peter

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 02:02 pm: Edit

If I preserve my #1 reasonably though (and a non-EPT plasma boat can also throw up a nice Turn 1 brick), my overall strategy at that point is to continue to dictate the flow of the battle and maintain the initiative; I'm really not terribly interested in "capitalizing" in the traditional sense, unless he asks for it, but I will keep myself prepared in the event that he does. I'll be happy to allow the forces of inertial erosion to play out over a series of turns in a sort of sustained aggression. As long as I remain behind him, I will win the shield wars against this ship and he will be the one who needs to worry about capitalization. It's just my job to make such prospects grim.

If he wants to protect his #4 through engine doubling, that's okay with me; I'll just keep plugging away at it and he can continue to take warp hits defensively. Obviously tagging along behind any Orion is a dangerous proposition and he will be looking for an opening, so the most important thing is to deny any useful openings by firing my phasers late in the turn, holding as much plasma as

possible, keeping my speed 20+ and staying as close to his #4 centerline as possible, basically maintaining a chase angle, rather than a pursuit angle (I know that may be anathema for plasma captains who are often so enamored with the concept of "the corner"). This last is important though because it ensures that he will have to HET very aggressively to get back into the fight if he wants to break the cycle.

If the #4 drops, individual 30 point launches will become a huge problem, because he either has to eat them on a rear flank facing shield, run away and expose his #4 to phasers or do something really drastic.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 02:19 pm: Edit

John wrote: >>If I preserve my #1 reasonably though (and a non-EPT plasma boat can also throw up a nice Turn 1 brick), my overall strategy at that point is to continue to dictate the flow of the battle and maintain the initiative;>>

Reasonable, but I guess I'm still not seeing how this sort of plan goes--what are you doing with plasma (ya know, other than holding it)? Again, if you don't have plasma on the board (or even if you do have plasma on the board and the Orion manages to slip around them at 31, which occasionally happens), he is going to come into R2 and blast down your #1, and even a 10 point brick isn't going to save a sheild from 7P1 and 5-7P3 at R2 (again, assuming phaser boat).

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 10:41 pm: Edit

I just don't see how it's possible to hang on the #4 of an Orion for any significant amount of time. You mention speed 20+. IMO, that's not gonna cut it. The Orion is gonna go speed 31 all turn, and if you don't it's gonna get turned around and blast you again. I certainly don't think the phaser boat is an optimal package against BP, but your plan isn't gonna be nearly as easy to execute as you are trying to imply. On top of that, if you do successfully hang in behind him, it'll just stop and cloak. I'd say you'll have at most 1 turn of tail-gating before the Orion either evades or goes under. In either case, it can easily have a brick big enough to absorb most of your phasers, if not all.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 02:18 pm: Edit

I think we really need to differentiate between strategy and tactics here.

Strategy: your overall battleplan. That is, how you plan to engage your opponent. Strategies, being broad and general themes must necessarily be flexible and subject to change during the course of a game.

Tactics: the ideas you generate to deal with specific short-term situations within a given battle.

I'm describing a strategy when I talk about aggressively pursuing the Orion phaser boat, because I believe it is an effective way to deal with this particular ship on a general level. I have not provided much in the way of tactical particulars, but tactical particulars are what I keep hearing in response to my posts, so I think that we are not on the same page from the get-go.

You can defeat any strategy handily on paper when you start throwing tactical particulars at it: "I'll just run away at speed 31 and then re-engage," for instance. Of course you will, and on a turn where that's likely, my own tactics will probably reflect a speed plot with that in mind in an attempt to prevent you from doing it. If you execute your tactics better than I do, then my strategy will suffer, so it is my duty to inflict my strategy upon you through strong and strategically coherent tactical decisions. An example of a strategically coherent tactical decision is to hold my launch when I have you pinned in a corner. Such a launch may result in a small and immediate tactical victory for me, but may ruin my overall strategic planning, for that immediate gratification. Such a launch may seem like the obvious choice, but it would be strategically incoherent in that case.

On the other hand, being a slave to one's strategy is not good either if, say, I can guarantee a 100-point connection, but I pass it up in favor of maintaining the status quo (see Falkenhayn at Verdun for a great example of this rigid and dogmatic mindset).

So anyway, this is obviously a bit of a departure from the specific phaser boat discussion, but I always have the feeling that strategic ideas tend to get shot down fairly quickly on this board, because of the ease in doing so tactically, which seems to miss the whole point to me. Maybe that's my fault for proposing

strategies on the Tactics Discussion forum

By Bill Albert (Lazyoldbear) on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Then let's address your ideas on a strategic level. Your plan is based on maneuvering with a ship which is faster and has a better turn mode than you. This plays to the Orion's strength. I'm always skeptical of any plan which challenges my opponent to do what it does best.

Lets take it down to a simpler level. The Orion has 2:FA-L, 2:FA-R, 1:LS, AND 1:RS phaser-1. It is higly likely that 4-6 of these will be shooting you every turn. In response, you will fire 4-6 phaser-1's. The Orion will have more power available for reinforcement.

I would expect, that its rear shields will take less damage than your forward shields because of this reinforcement advantage. On the other hand, it will also be losing 1 warp on turns 1, 2, 5, and every turn after 8.

The major flaws in your plan are that you can expect to run out of forward shields

before it runs out of rear shields and that this will happen long before turn 8. I'm not saying that you can't pull it off. But I think you are optimizing the Orion's chances.

A better idea might be to move slower (14-17 with occasional spurts to 26) and launch 1 real plasma S near the end of every other turn.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 07:36 pm: Edit

From the Rommies POV, vs Phaser Orion.

Stall stall stall. ~turn 11 your Orion opponent will start to run out of engines.

If you try to chase him down (unless there is a favorable noticeable difference in player skill) you will not catch him and you will have 0 reinf to his 12-24. You will find yourself in a Ra: 2 battle pass with no plasma in flight. Launching while chasing, is not efficent. Hmm he Just HET'd on to the Hex row crossing my T. Doh.

If you manage to corner him, he can cloak out.

Instead of trying to chase the most maneuverable ship in the game. Make him come to you. Play the center of the board, with Mid speed, mid range launches (enveloper or not, personal preference. I prefer Env, can't just take it on the brick to see if it is real.) and a bit of reinf. Maybe some tractors, if he is the greedy type.

You need some speed to keep him from turning off from a plasma and coming back the same turn and mugging you. (or cloak, 4 turns total, I've been in fights where either the Rom or the Orion has ran out of cloak time.)

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 07:49 pm: Edit

note: this fight is mostly academic. (phaser vs BP)

very few people play the phaser boat anymore. With the Andy gone it has (almost exclusivly) been replased by dbl plsama-f's.

Which changes the chase dynamic just a wee bit.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:55 am: Edit

John wrote: >>I'm describing a strategy when I talk about aggressively pursuing the Orion phaser boat, because I believe it is an effective way to deal with this particular ship on a general level. I have not provided much in the way of tactical particulars, but tactical particulars are what I keep hearing in response to my posts, so I think that we are not on the same page from the get-go.>>

The problem here is that while you are describing a strategy (hold plasmas and stay on the back sheilds of the Orion, phasering them down), it is one that falls apart in the face of the tactics involved.

I can come up with all sorts of good strategies for all sorts of match ups that work just fine as long as my opponent's tactics don't mess with mine--for instance, in a Gorn vs Kzinti match up, my strategy is "go fast, anchor him, and feed him 100 points of plasma". Which seems like a perfectly reasonable plan in a strategic sense ("If I can tractor him and land 100 points of plasma, I'll certainly win!"), but in a tactical sense, it is much, much harder than it seems on paper.

The Romulan/Orion plan, as presented, seems resonable, but in a tactical sense, I don't think it goes anywhere, especially as the overall strategy (stay on his rear sheilds and fire phasers) is unenlightened by how you plan to use plasmas to accomplish this. It is certainly possible that there is a way to use plasmas to make this work, but without a description, I'm not seeing it.

What i am seeing is the same thing that Brian and Bill are seeing--a Romulan with less discresionary power and a worse turn mode trying to play a game of manuver against the most manuverable, fastest ship in the game. And if the game is stay inside R5 at speed 31 all turn on the Orion's back sheilds, the Orion can likely fire just as many phasers backwards as the Romulan can fire forward, and while the Romulan is moving speed 31 or whatever, it has limited to no rienforcement, where the Orion has the option of having a lot of rienforcement for a significant amount of time.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 11:14 am: Edit

John also wrote: >>but I always have the feeling that strategic ideas tend to get shot down fairly quickly on this board, because of the ease in doing so tactically, which seems to miss the whole point to me.>>

See, the strategies presented need to hold up to scruitny, otherwise they likely aren't such good strategies.

This is a forum for the discussion of strategy and tactics. Generally, people propose ideas, and they get disected and picked apart, as that is how you figure out if such an idea is a good one. If the strategy/tactic *can* hold up to a room full of people picking at the flaws in its introduction, it might end up to be a good strategy or tactic.

Returning to my example above (Gorn wants to anchor and blast Kzinti with 100 pointsof plasma) is a stratgegy that doesn't necessarily hold up to scruitiny (too

many drones in the way and when you get there). There might be tactics that make the plan work out well, but on initial examination, this strategy isn't a real good one. But maybe after folks pick at it for a while, I could figure out how tomake it work.

On the other hand, just throwing a strategy out there and then when it is scrutinized, not defending the strategy with the tactics that make it work, just indicates a likely faulty strategy.

-Peter

By Michael W. Sweet (Mwsweet) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:44 am: Edit

The two greatest strengths of the Orion phaser boat have not been mentioned yet. They are 1) flexability, and 2) its ability to mizia is unsurpassed. When combined with the inate abilities of all Orions of manuverability and the best cloaking ability, it is still a very potent opponent. It became a popular package with many players, but very, very few put in the effort to truly understand all its intricacies. Due to the mizia ability plus manuverability it has the capacity to beat any other ship in only one battle pass. This is very tricky to pull off, but can be done against any ship. There is no tactical template for this, it depends upon the doctrinal flexability of its captain, and especially his ability to detect and capitalize on opponent errors.

If a plasma boat does not launch torps, it is handing the game on a silver platter to the Orion. A good phaser boat captain ALWAYS has power in tractors, and the plasma boats do not have enough direct firepower in one direction to get through a moderate brick. The Orion has no reason to leave range 2-5 unless you launch plasma, so you have just wasted a great deal of power on movement for no effect. There are ways that big plasma can beat the phaser boat, but chasing him without launching plasma is not one of them.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Another problem for BP against the Orion phaser-boat (or any other Orion for that matter). The Orion can HET twice with no fear of breakdown, and then only breaks down on a 6. It can also HET at 31. In the proposed BP scenario, even if you can stay on the #4 shield, the Orion can HET into you, blast you at close range, and HET again if you decide to launch lots of plasma at it. Thus, the Orion will get at least two significant shots, probably at your #1, if you hold plasma. If the second one is on your hurt shield (which is easily possible if he HETs when you don't move), you will most likely die.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Ted wrote: >>In the proposed BP scenario, even if you can stay on the #4 shield, the Orion can HET into you, blast you at close range, and HET again if you decide to launch lots of plasma at it.>>

While I'm with you in theory here, keep in mind the delay between consecutive HETs--if the Orion HETs into you, he can't HET for another, what, 8 impulses, meaning you know exactly where he is going and exactly when the 100 points of plasma launched from range 2 is going to hit him.

Thie being said, an Orion HETing into an advantageous R2 oblique/away shot on a pre chewed #1 to land 3 P1 and 5 P3 at R2 and escape unharmed isn't out of the question.

-Peter

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 08:14 pm: Edit

Right, Orion clearly can win win exchange at R2. I estimate damage output to be 55 (7P1s and 7P3s). Gorn would do around 70, TFH 61, TKR 65. Despite 6-15 points of damage difference, you can assume that O will have brick big enough to at least even things up. Additionaly BP ship will be without heavy weapons for a few turns.

In other words it is a great idea to get to R2 with a BP ship, especialyy close to EOT, then cloak following turn.

Peter, I tried to anchor Kzintis on T1 few times and learned that it can be done easily agianst a inexperienced player, or someone who blunders well. I still feel that Gorn is superior to Kzinti, by a very thin margin.

By Bret O'Neal (Fiverdown) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 08:58 pm: Edit

Ralph are you Bolting?

iic: Not to be a spoil sport. But taking the Orion in to RA 2, against a fully loaded opponent, with a full facing shield is usually not the best of options. (there are exceptions)

Once they have shot some of their load (~50%), and/or have a 1/2 strength shield. Then it is worth it.

Dance for a few turns to get the fire decision you want. Either in using up their load or in just chewing up their front shields.

Pointing a clean shield +15 point brick at a 1/2 strength shield RA 2 that is gold.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 01:30 am: Edit

Sorry about the silence, I've been out of town for a week. Glad to see that my

last post generated a flurry of responses

"Then let's address your ideas on a strategic level. Your plan is based on maneuvering with a ship which is faster and has a better turn mode than you. This plays to the Orion's strength. I'm always skeptical of any plan which challenges my opponent to do what it does best."

I would argue that flying a passive, speed 14-17 Romulan that chucks out plasmas just to keep the phaserboat away is a more sure way of playing into his strengths than pursuing him and I would argue, furthermore, that you are yielding up maneuver even moreso. He can charge you with lots of reinforcement and extract a grievous toll of defensive launches just so you can earn the right to keep him away from you and he'll hit you hard, or he'll simply run away and come back later at a more opportune time. There is nothing here to prevent him from using his speed quite effectively in head-on, offset charges that extract resources from you and set him up with nice FA shots. Since you are not playing much of a speed game, his escapability will be a tacitly agreed upon default. If you ramp up to chase him, then you're stepping into a sort of no-man's land that starts to suggest a pursuit strategy and poses the question "at which point do you take your foot off the gas?"

Pursuing the Orion does not necessarily mean playing his game; it just means denying him easy opportunities at neutral battle passes, while forcing him to defend his rear shields and worry about possible anchor bids. He won't win a shield war if the bulk of his phasers spend most of their time out of arc and his general maneuver tends to be away from you (which seriously complicates range brackets). Yes the Orion can out-turn the TFH, but he will only really excel at this at slower, plasma-vulnerable speeds and he will be far more elusive when he is approaching head-on in a fresh battle pass, rather than being trailed. Plasmas in moderation will play a role in shepherding him here as well. I think that people take it for granted in the tournament that the more maneuverable ship can arrange easy battle passes against an unwilling opponent and my strategy seeks to deny a complete break from which he can regroup.

The most glaring disparity in this matchup is not manuever, it's weapons crunch. His maneuver advantage is mitiagted by defensive posture and plasma issues. The question I look to resolve is how might I put my vastly superior crunch to good use? If I allow him to play a battlepass-style game, his maneuver will mitigate my plasmas as well, but in a pursuit game, he will find this much more difficult, due to the extremely tight angles with which he will need to work and the probability of an HET to go offensive. There's no question he's fast and he can even juke plasmas in the corner with his HETs. If he wants to play his maneuver trump against me though, I'll insist that we also compare crunch power sizes.

Playing a passive launch game will be unfulfilling, most likely, since he will not require much in the way of dangerous maneuver trumps and your plasma comes out in small globs from neutral positions with little or no follow-up, so he can put his maneuver to good use through fast hit-and-run style attacks and you will

eventually cloak or get punished. Why would you even want to play a stand-off game against such a ship? This is not the Fed we're talking about.

The bottom line for me is that assymetries in ship design do not necessarily demand a complete and utter yielding to the other ship's advantages. I'm not going to concede to the Orion that he's "the maneuver ship" in this matchup and let him run all over me; I'm going to make him demonstrate it under some form of duress and in the process, I will do my best to ensure that relative crunch also has its day in court.

And just as an aside:

"A good phaser boat captain ALWAYS has power in tractors"

The "a good XXXX captain" argument is a bit over-used and not very compelling (sorry to bring it up, but this one pops up a lot). Definitely not ALWAYS the case with phaser boats and, dare I say, "a good plasma captain" would be remiss in not making that good phaser boat captain prove it when the cards are down. Good captains run out of power and must make sacrifices just like the rest of us

(at least the ones that are good for legitimate reasons ). If there's any one generalization I could say about "a good captain", it's that he simply doesn't take things for granted and make assumptions based upon the generally agreed upon norm (e.g. I won't bother slapping a tractor on that Orion, because he's good and surely he'll have some negative tractor to go with those two HETs he just flipped in front of me).

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 09:22 am: Edit

>"Another problem for BP against the Orion phaser-boat (or any other Orion for that matter). The Orion can HET twice with no fear of breakdown, and then only breaks down on a 6. It can also HET at 31. In the proposed BP scenario, even if you can stay on the #4 shield, the Orion can HET into you, blast you at close range, and HET again if you decide to launch lots of plasma at it."

Actually this is the Orion's problem. If he HETs directly into a loaded BP, he will die horribly if said HET happens inside, say, 8 hexes (give or take, depending upon the specifics). Outside of that, he may have the opportunity to HET his way out of jail, but then he's just double HET'd for marginal gain (some sort of an outside phaser exchange). This of course assumes the BP just pulls the trigger and turns off to avoid a direct confrontation. Sure, additional HETs after that are likely to succeed, but that hardly makes the maneuver any less wasteful and gratuitous HETs do kill Orions.

>"If a plasma boat does not launch torps, it is handing the game on a silver platter to the Orion."

If that Orion just fearlessly HET'd into my non-plasma-launching BP, the silver platter will contain well-done Orion.

>"The Orion has no reason to leave range 2-5 unless you launch plasma, so you have just wasted a great deal of power on movement for no effect. There are ways that big plasma can beat the phaser boat, but chasing him without launching plasma is not one of them."

The Orion won't enter range 2-5 without an HET if I'm pursuing him. And when I say hold plasmas, I'm not suggesting plasma constipation here, just an avoidance of steady launching patterns on the open map. Hoarding the plasmas is the point, but not to suicidal levels. Anytime a BP plays a pursuit style game, it has to be extremely judicious about when and where it launches, or it will end up dead. The fact that the phaser boat has laughable crunchpower outside of range way-too-close-against-a-loaded-BP makes a pursuit strategy a safer bet than against, say, an LDR or an AT.

>"Returning to my example above (Gorn wants to anchor and blast Kzinti with 100 points of plasma) is a stratgegy that doesn't necessarily hold up to scruitiny (too many drones in the way and when you get there). There might be tactics that make the plan work out well, but on initial examination, this strategy isn't a real good one."

I have to go with Johnny Unitas on this one: take what the defense gives you. If a Kzinti plays a passive opening against my Gorn, I'm gonna come after him with a bloodlust and I'm going to try to tag him with a big anchor. The Kzinti is an extremely difficult ship for the Gorn and I'll take any opening to finish the fight quickly that I can get. I would avoid EPTs entirely.

If the Kzinti doesn't open passively, then sorry Johnny, I'm gonna bide my time and still look for an anchor opening or, failing that, an opportunity to park that thing with a decel and mass weasel-off of deployed drones. The Kzinti is just far too dangerous to dance with in a Gorn (Romulan, yes, Gorn no way). The anchor is inherently risky, but the traditional strength-through-defense Gorn alternative in this matchup is even worse, I think.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 11:16 am: Edit

John, there are still a couple of basic flaws in your strategy.

1. The Orion will do more shield damage to the Rom, than vice versa. The Orion will fire between 4 and 6 p1's each turn. The Rom can only return 4 p1's, unless it wants to go to the oblique(at which point the Orion just turns off and gets behind you). At high speed, the Rom will have little or no reinforcement, compared to a medium to large amount of reinforcement on the Orion. All of this adds up to the Rom's front shields being gone long before the Orion's rears.

2. The Orion will evade if it wants to after 1 turn. There is very little the BP ship can do to prevent this. The Orion may have to cloak to do this, but it also may not. A small maneuver error(or bad guess on speed plot) by the Rom is probably all that is needed for the Orion to escape without resorting to cloak. Since you are not launching plasma, the only result of a small maneuver error by the Orion, is that it doesn't evade this turn, and may need to cloak. Large maneuver errors could be game ending, but that is true of pretty much any matchup regardless of strategy.

3. Launching plasma at any ship running away at spd 31 is pretty much a waste of plasma. Because you are taking a pursuit angle to stay behind the Orion, there's not much chance of landing plasma. Unless you can land plasma, you are going to lose a shield attrition battle.

You've made several valid statements about why other strategies may not work. At the same time, I have not seen anything that makes me think this strategy will work. Holding a large amount of plasma, will certainly make it difficult for the Orion to HET back into you. But if you don't do something to force the Orion's hand, it'll be happy to just keep running away while shooting you.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 05:57 pm: Edit

What Brian said, unlss you can get the Pirate boxed into a corner. Then your game plan will have a much better chance of success. The range 4-5 alpha of the phaser boat is laughable, but it's a dependable 23-28 damage (assuming 7 p1's from an oblique shot) every turn. That adds up quickly.

By John Schneider (Franziskaner) on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 02:36 am: Edit

The range 4-5 alpha is a problem if it is happening in a head-on, off-set pass, because the Orion can exert a lot of positional pressure on the TFH and get a nice shot in (or at the very least, force a turn-off and defensive plasma launch while still getting a modest shot on the #3/#5). He then has maximum escapability from any launched plasma and definitely from the TFH whether it turned off or not (turn off is gravy), due to the steep oblique angles at which he has approached. Then I have, as Marcus noted, 23-28 points of damage on my #2 or #6, he took a lesser hit on a likely brick, or maybe on a rear a bracket out and my primary pursuit shield (due to the angles) is the forward flank shield he just shot up. If I let him run away, he just resets next turn or maybe the turn after and repeats the whole drill. Soon I'm reduced to a chuck and duck strategy to keep him running, but chuck and duck against this guy is just a delaying action; it will accomplish nothing unless the Orion serves you up a major assist.

So, with that in mind, I see two possible alternatives:

1) Chuck and duck from the get-go. That will be 7-10 turns of peaceful cohabitation, followed by an adjudication against the TFH.

2) Play a more aggressive pursuit strategy. This is really just a heading for a variety of attack strategies the Romulan can employ.

The most drastic of these is, of course, the all-out anchor bid. As an opening strategy, this is clearly a terrible idea against an Orion, but there may come individual turns when it is waranted (later in the game, you have map position on him and you contingency allocate some tractor in case he doesn't double, for instance).

Another attack strategy would involve running him up against the map edge and launching on him. This is really the purest form of pursuit, because you are heading him off at the pass, so to speak, rather than just chasing him. The problem with this approach is that he has easy escapability via the 180 HET if you overplay your pursuit. He also gets a nice parting shot on you. If you can trap him in a corner though, this one could pay off.

Finally there is the chase attack strategy, which is the one I've been a proponent of. There are two flavors of this one: aggressive chase and lag chase. Aggressive chase is a speed 26-31 glued-to-the-#4. I agree with Brian and company that this is problematic for the TFH, because it requires too much investment in movement in what will be a losing battle in both movement and phaser-exchanges. This strategy will eventually have to morph into one of the other strategies I mentioned above, I think, because it is not sustainable.

My preference is the lag attack, which involves about 23 hexes of movement per turn, with the tendency to chase, rather than pursue. The phaser exchanges can be regulated and the chase position prevents an easy turn in for an oblique FA shot, while also cutting off useful HET angles (directly back into the TFH I do not count as anything like useful). It's really no skin off my back as a TFH captain to throw 23 points into movement per turn, provided I'm managing my batteries responsibly and not discharging my F's onto the open map. I can continue to exert positional pressure on the Orion with 23 movement, although the range will fluctuate. It will never fluctuate sufficiently so that he can break off completely and turn around at his leisure. If he makes a move to turn in, I'll chuck out a 30-pointer to keep him honest. A key here is to preserve my pseudoes past turn 1, because that will make this game much more effective. As mentioned above though, I will not launch any F's; those are for retribution, close-in fighting and bad HET ideas. I will carefully manage my S launches as well. I will not launch them for the sake of maintaining good launch turn-around, but I will put them on the board if I feel the situation demands it.

Okay, with that said, I know this is where we diverge; you see uneven range 4-5 phaser shots each turn, I see a mounting strategic inertia in the Romulan's favor through steady positional pressure, collateral damage in the form of RA/FA phaser exchanges (which is preferable to FA/FA exhanges), plasma, burnt warp and burnt HETs. I don't believe that I am going to convince anyone to buy into this

strategy at this point and as others have noted, it's become somewhat hypothetical, because it is unlikely to see this Orion package floating around much these days.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 11:24 am: Edit

John, While your plan sounds reasonable on paper, it won't work very well on the map. It is in many respects similar to the battle between plasma and the old G1G1 Aux. If the plasma ship holds it's torps the game devolves into a circling match, where the plasma ships front shield is degraded over the course of a few turns to where it has to break off the circle to get a new shield in arc. This allows the Orion to set for a battle pass the next turn. If the plasma ship launches torps they get run out ot phasered down (depending on the number launched and board position) then the plasma ship will be overrun at close range or the circle will start again (again depending on the number of torps held in reserve). Because the phaser boat is a low power package it is on a longer time clock with regards to engine doubling than high power packages. It can easily get away with only doubling one engine a turn while circling. You will run out of viable front shields before he will run out of engines. Also, what do you do if the Orion cloaks out for a turn and underruns you? Do you HET to get back on his rear? If you do he will stay under cloak and underrun you again; if not you won't seee the rear of the Orion again without another battle pass unless you launch some torps, which will also serve to slow you down some. If you are on SFBOL I and others would be happy to play this out with you to try to show you what we mean. Stephen

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 12:11 am: Edit

So. SFBOL RAT19 opened and the Jindarian TC is available as a choice. I did not realize the Jindarian was sanctioned now - I knew SPP was planning to revise it at Origins, but didn't know it was going to be sanctioned as a result.

Never having played (or played against) the Jindarian, I wonder what the appropriate tactics are. It's a really weird duck.

* Only 30 power. Even for a 2/3 mover, that's very bad. On top of that, the railguns require warp power. * I have no idea what the actual rules for the MRGs are. I have the new F1, but I heard that the rules printed in it are not the actual railgun rules? * Bad phasers. Only 6P1+2P3, and the same wally-eyed arcs as the railguns. * 22 balanced hull and six shuttles is very good. But two of the shuttles are prospecting shuttles, which cannot be used as WWs and cannot be prepared as SS shuttles under WS-3 (they could be armed during the scenario).

Given the high arming costs of the MRGs, their usefulness for defending against seeking weapons in "hailgun" mode, the crazy-arcs, and the lack of power, is

there any option other than to waddle out to mid-map and park?

Thoughts on RPS? I can't make up my mind on this one, but I have some ideas. It would seem that plasma would be trouble (it can't run plasma out, and it will run out of hailgun ammo before the plasma ship runs out of plasma; and if it fires all its railguns, it can be anchored). I would think that the considerable long range firepower would give problems to Feds, Hydrans and other up-close ships, but move precedence would seem to alleviate this somewhat. D&D ships would probably be a wash, they lack the crunch power to really hurt the ship and their seeking weapons would be ineffective against all the drone-killing options the ship has. But, if they can get to knife fighting range and get in some good mizia hits, once the railguns are damaged, the ship will not be able to stand up in a knife fight.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 01:00 am: Edit

Using the old SSD since I have no idea what changes SPP made (if any).

D&D ships can murder it. It has a highly accurate weapon. But it takes 2T to arm. And if it's arming all 4 it has a max speed of 25 hexes. And it can't be doing anything else. (Including powering AFC.)

The Disr can be fired as the range closes and over the turn break used in OL mode to crack open a shield and use phaser fire to do minor internals.

Once a shield is down you have taken effectively half of his firepower out of consideration. Since it will be almost impossible for him to bring those particular MRG's back into action w/o giving up a down shield. (#2,3,5,6) are actually better hits IMO.

Most 2T arming weapons can be concentrated onto a single arc. Allowing for concentration of firepower. The Jindy can't even possibly do this. But considering a R10 shot can do 10-40 damage (1-4MRG's) you don't want more concentrated firepower.

If it wants to arm it has to slow down. If it wants to get away it will be running dry on firepower and can be caught next turn.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:32 am: Edit

Ken, There were no changes.

Paul franz

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 02:23 pm: Edit

I put this in the RAT19 discussion, but it seems more appropriate here, so.....

I've looked at the Jindarian and considered its tactical implications. I don't think

it's really viable as a tourney ship. Its arcs are too limiting to get any kind of real crunch power. Although it can chew the heck out of seekers, it does so at the expense of delivering damage to the enemy. Also, BP and D&D ships will just close and launch and/or anchor at point blank range.

Given the MRG combat table, no one (not even the ISC) will want to fight at medium ranges with the Jindarian ship. Instead, everyone will want to get to point blank range, where (despite having a good hull) it will die horribly because it has a CW hull. The Fed, Lyran, and Seltorian will be particularly good at this.

It is also underpowered, having only 30 total power (4 less than the other war cruiser hulls). With 24 warp engines, it must use 8 to re-arm all of its MRGs, limiting its maximum speed to 25 without HET. If it does not use its MRGs, or fires some every other turn, then it cannot deal enough damage to stop an opponent from closing.

Given its speed deficiencies and its lack of crunch, and given the fact that it WILL be cornered on turn 2 on a fixed map, I don't think the Jindarian will fare well at all.

Note that the Archeo and the LDR both can deal with the cornering problem. The LDR has massive close-in firepower, which can be used to discourage an overrun by a cruiser if timed properly. The Archeo has its webs and a 10 point phaser capacitor to mess with and discourage cruisers. The Jindarian has no way to prevent a charging cruiser from getting close and killing it.

Fixing this problem is harder. To fix the speed and power problem it needs 4 additional warp power in the form of additional AWR. This will give it total power roughly equivalent to the other war cruiser hulls and allow it to potentially move 30 while arming its heavy weapons (something that all of the other war cruiser hulls can do). To fix the crunch problem it either needs (1) better arcs on the MRGs or (2) more phaser-1s. Better arcs seems to be contrary to the MRG concept, so it seems that more phasers should be the way to go. I would give it two more 360 ph-1's (total of 4) to give it a 9 point capacitor, instead of the 7 point capacitor it has now.

That being said, I think will fly it just for the heck of it. Besides, more playtest results will be useful to prove my points.

And now for the inevitable argument......

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 02:26 pm: Edit

I don't think parking in the middle of the map will help you that much. You give up your initiative *and* you make a point-blank knife fight a virtual certainty. You

will have a hard time in a knife fight because you cannot concentrate your firepower, whereas the enemy can concentrate his.

IMO, this ship must move, and move fast, or die. Given the power problems this ships has, it can't even move fast while rearming all of its MRGs.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:00 pm: Edit

Playtest Report at Origins

Jindarian vs. Vudar

T1 - We both charged each other. I turned in to approach on a centerline angle. He moved reasonable slow (16) to fully charge the heavies. I fired rfr MRG and hit #1 shield for 10. I turned off, but slipped in at every oppourtunity. I reached range 5 and was still on his #1 shield (He could have avoided this by slipping out). I fired 2 MRG's and 4 P1's. I hit with both and did about 10 in hitting a IPG and a hvy. Next impulse I het away and fired 1 MRG for 12 (no phasers but got the IPG,a and a heavy). He fired the wad at me and did a few internals (only 1 p3).

T2 I turned in in warm pursuit. He needed to recharge the 2 IPG's and our phaser suites were comporable. He turned back in and we exchanged fire at range 1 on impulse 32. Both shields were dropped, but negligable internals were scored. I launched a shuttle at him.

I only had my 3 MRG's available (I kept one off line until lat ein the turn when I started loading it with batteries - this ship is power poor!), and he was on my rs (down a MRG). He was tacking, and i moved in a 16-8-4 split. I fired a single MRG as a mizia and took out a 3rd heavy while both of his FX heavies did some internals to me (1 P3, and maybe 1 more p1). His phasers were not enough to take out a ls shield (untouched - he had taken out my 2+3). I turned into his hex and launched all 6 shuttles. He luanched 4 as defense platforms. My last 2 shuttles both moved on impulse 11 (lanched on impulses 8+10 from the same hex after he used all his labs and most of his phasers on me and other shuttles. They hit for 36 and my MRG's and few phasers got him to conceed.

End notes. The ship is very power poor if it needs to recharge phasers and MRG's (not to mention batteries) on the same turn. I think I charged all 5 batts, 6 into phasers, 6 into MRG's and 4 for std's, and 2 for suis on turn 2. This left about 7 for movement (speed 10?). This was not a good closing strategy and was only really usable because my opponent had a 2 turn arming weapon. Against a disruptor or plasma ship a completely different plan is required. A plasma ship will not allow the Jindo to stay at that low speed. A disruptor ship would turn in and mug it. On turn 1 most of the time the Jindo will not be able to het away, or it will power starve on turn 2.

On turn 3 I had a huge advantage with 2 extra shuttles )prospecting. This put a huge drain on the Vudars already meager seeking weapon defense, since I had killed both IPG's on turn 1. I think the Vudar needs to protect its #1 shield on turn 1 (much like the Fed). No ship should allow the Vudar to get its same shield hit by 3 (or 4 with a het) MRG's.

By Piotr Orbis Proszynski (Orbis) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 08:05 pm: Edit

No ship should allow the Vudar [Jindo] to get its same shield hit by 3 (or 4 with a het) MRG's.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:57 pm: Edit

The Vudar should use the IPG when the Jindo hits r10. In most cases, he should use one point at a time, forcing the Jindo to accept the -1 shift or hold fire, either getting closer than he wants or turning unfired railguns out of arc. If it looks like the Jindo is planning to duck in and out of that range bracket, firing multiple guns on one impulse, then throw 2 or 3 points in.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 08:55 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>The Vudar should use the IPG when the Jindo hits r10. In most cases, he should use one point at a time, forcing the Jindo to accept the -1 shift or hold fire, either getting closer than he wants or turning unfired railguns out of arc.>>

The status of the jamming mode for the IPG in the tournament game is yet to be determined. I'm pretty certain that the playtest game above was assuming no jamming mode at all, which is why the Vudar didn't use the jamming mode :-)

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 11:29 am: Edit

The Vudar TC without jamming is a bit weak. Certainly weaker than the Lyran. With TC jamming, it might be a bit strong.

A single IPG with full capabilities would probably have the best balance.

By Rob Estrada (Daredevil) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 03:33 am: Edit

Latest RAT

I signed up for ..... (gulp) The Jindo

need some rules help and advice 1. I expect to be roasted in round 1 lol

2. Arming rules for Medium Rail guns--- How do they work? Warp engery yikes! hehe

3. What are prospecting shuttles? 6 shuttles WOW!

4. This ship looks really foolish, but I'm so bored of tournament battles --- I'm flying it anyway

5. Omega sector *** totally rules *** flying a 700 pt fleet battle this Sunday..... Vari vs Trobin battle w/ a friend in Tacoma

Rob in Seattle

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 03:52 am: Edit

1) Not necessarily, you might get a bye. I'm not sure you can beat ANY ship with the Jindo.

2) MRG arms/holds in exactly the same way as a standard load photon torpedo. There is not, that I can find, any restriction on using reserve warp power for the first turn of arming. 2a) Tables for offensive mode are in the SFBOL weapons chart. Also has defensive fire mode. Defensive mode is pretty neat. Decide at time of firing which mode to use. Defensive fire continues for 8 impulses, max range 4, hits all targets (including friendlies) in the firing arc. Defensive fire works as an ADD vs. drones (hitting on 1-2), similar to an ADD vs. shuttles (hits 1-3, scores 2D6 damage), and also does 1D6 points of warhead reduction to a plasma torpedo. Note, the 1D6 is actual warhead reduction, not "phaser damage points," and always hits.

3) Prospecting shuttles are in J2 and F1. Otherwise: * Speed 6/damage 6, 360 P3, same as an admin shuttle. * Has two prospecting charges. Can fire one of these per turn. Prospecting charge has maximum range of 1, FA arc, to-hit odds depend on the target's speed. * Cannot be used as WW. Can be used as SS, but cannot begin the scenario armed in this way.

4) Jindarian combines the speed of the ISC (if it were slower), the firepower of the Andromedan (if it had less firepower), and the toughness of the LDR (if the LDR were more fragile). The only advantage to the ship is that it has excellent firepower outside range 8... which, of course, happens rarely in the tournament.

5) ... OK.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 04:46 am: Edit

hmm.. looks to me like range 5 is the sweet spot. Firing just 1 side of the ship is roughly equivalent to the entire output of a D&D ship. If you can HET to get the same shield with the other side, you're looking at doing about 18-30 internals. That's the same as a r4 alpha from the FED. You'd better have some room to run though. Might be better to just knock down a shield, and run. Then do the same

thing next turn with the other side. If you hit the #1 on your first shot, you may be able to avoid getting cornered. I'd think that if you can get through turn 2, you'll be in good shape.

The ship still seems a bit weak to me, but I think that it can still do some harm. If I had to guess, it's gonna need a couple more phasers to balance out.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 08:41 am: Edit

Andy wrote: >>The Vudar TC without jamming is a bit weak. Certainly weaker than the Lyran. With TC jamming, it might be a bit strong.

A single IPG with full capabilities would probably have the best balance. >>

I dunno--years and years ago, we were flying the TC in playtest with normal IPG's, it was kind of crazy--you get to R5, where the Vudar weapons jump to useful and everyone else is still not that useful, blast them, and then turn off hiding under a significant IPG shift for the rest of the turn. Wast that hard to arrange, and genrally was pretty devestating.

It seems likely that there is some level of IPG jamming that is viable for thetournament ship, but it'll take a lot of tweaking to geti it right, I'd suspect.

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 09:56 am: Edit

Quote:

If you can HET to get the same shield with the other side, you're looking at doing about 18-30 internals. That's the same as a r4 alpha from the FED.

Something like that. Compared to the Fed: * Range 4 isn't usually much harder to arrange than range 5, and the Fed doesn't have to HET to do it. Plus, the Jindarian will only ever have power to HET on turn 1. Advantage Fed. * The Fed has no risk of having the opponent turn and take half your damage on another shield. Advantage Fed. * The Fed is MUCH tougher and has better phasers. Advantage Fed. * Part of the Fed's strength is that it has a strong overrun threat, that he can come to R0 or R1 and blow you up in one shot. The Jindarian has no such threat. Jindarian damage hardly improves at all inside of R5. Big crunch helps in the knife fight too. Huge advantage Fed.

* Plasma ships can deny R8 effectively, but can't deny R10, and the railgun is serviceable even outside that range. Plus, there's no plasma-eating mode for the photon. Big advantage Jindarian. * The Jindarian has several effective fighting shields, but conversely, losing ANY shield on the ship significantly reduces the potential firepower. On the positive side, a railgun behind a damaged shield is still fairly useful in defensive mode. I'd call this a wash. * The Fed has to decide whether to overload or arm standards. The Jindarian has to decide whether to arm one half of his ship or both. However, the Fed (having armed standards) can upgrade to OL at any time. If the Jindarian leaves half his ship empty, he's got to live with it for a while. Advantage Fed. * Railguns are much more efficient than photons, but the Jindarian has much less power. Wash. * TM C vs. TM D. But the Jindarian is too slow to take advantage of it. Wash.

Add it all up and the Fed (which is hardly the strongest ship in the tournament as it is) comes out significantly ahead.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 03:31 pm: Edit

I think the Fed looks much nicer on the SSD as well. Advantage Fed.

;)

By Timothy Mervyn Linden (Timlinden) on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 04:11 pm: Edit

I played the Jindarian at Origins Saturday Patrol for at least two years. It was lots of fun, and did reasonably well. Of course, at that time the MRG's fired every turn for 2 warp power. Brr..

With MRG's firing every other turn, the ship seems to me quite unsurvivable. I would agree it would then need proper power outputs, and perhaps a few more phasers (2 more 360 ph-3?)

I would have to look up my records, but I am sure I had an overall winning record. I beat all three Lyrans I faced - they were all good, fun games.

The basic strategy I used was to spiral in and towards the left hand corner, to fire 3 MRG's turn one, sandpapering whatever shields I could. Then turn two I would always do a two MRG's, HET, two more, and do so to maximize the number of impulses before an overrun happened. I might actually fire Ph-1's this turn, if close enough and on a down shield. Otherwise, late turn 2, get to whatever corner, launch 6 shuttle phaser platforms, and tac/kill the opponent. Hopefully.

This of course would not work at all with two turn MRG's. But if the ship had the power to run and gun, like the other CW tourney ships, perhaps.

Tim.

By Richard K. Glover (Fahrenheit) on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:58 pm: Edit

The Jinarian with every-turn MRGs was unworkable. Making them two-turn weapons made it unplayable.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 05:34 pm: Edit

I still want an astroid based ship for them.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Ahmad,

Here is my take on an asteroid TC. JTCL

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Ken, is there any particular reason why the #1 and #4 armor belts are 44 boxes, while the rest are 36?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Grr I managed to chop off one row of armor boxes w/o noticing it. Then I cloned the goof. All Armor Belts 44 in strength.

SSD Fixed.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 04:31 am: Edit

Kludge, you just made my day.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 11:44 am: Edit

Glad to be a help. Like it shows on the SSD it's Unsanctioned. It uses the new J. rules.

It can take a huge amount of pounding. With all the padding between cargo C Hull and works.

It has a limited defensive ability to phaser down incoming seeking weapons. At best it can get 6 phasers to bear on a single target. But it has no defensive phasers as such.

The warp power was to give it a valid run ability while allowing fast ships and seeking weapons a good chance to catch it.

Maybe curtailing the C Hull Cargo and Works by -2 each would be best. But w/o playtesting I thought I'd leave the padding pretty much intact.

The armor was chosen as a mostly halfway point that would look good between a CL and CA.

I made a couple more minor changes today. Fixing the lack of probe ammo and marking the shuttle tracks. I also cut the amount of non admin even further with this change. To limit the heavy WW useage.

I'm tempted to up the batts by 1 but I think I'll leave it alone for now.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 03:41 pm: Edit

If you are looking for comments about it, I'd be worried because it's so slow. It's going to get eaten by just about anyone and needs to be able to take significant poundings (especially without the effective ability to HET). I'd almost wonder if a completely unchanged CA wouldn't be the way to go because it's always going to be in these long, brutal attrition battles with just about any other race. Its armor is eqivalent to a clock on the ship. It's been too long since I've owned F1. Do either the Works or Fab give it any kind of self-repair capacity?

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 07:34 pm: Edit

Prospecting shuttles can't be used as WWs anyway, but 10 shuttles would be just too many ph-3s to let anyone have. It wouldn't need weasels with that many ph-

3s

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 10:40 am: Edit

A max speed of 28 isn't that slow. On a single map, the enemy will be caught.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 12:19 pm: Edit

William I modified it after the first posting. It has 4/4 Admin/Prospecting.

Here are my thoughts on the movement limit.

A MC 2/3 pretty much dictated what the max speed would be. Asteroid ships simply DON'T have the Tactical speed of other ships, if you want to keep even a remote amount of racial flavor.

So that means a warp movement has to come out at 21 24 27.

21 is simply to slow to even be considered. It could never run out any plasma. So the ship would have to sit n spin. Even a stern chase of medium speed drones could catch it without perfect maneuvering.

24 is fast enough to help run out plasma a bit, but would still encourage the sit n spin. Since there would be no way to HET and run plasma out.

27 is fast enough to run plasma out to a good extent and get around medium speed drones with careful maneuvering. And it makes a good balance of engines that look good on the SSD.

30 with all of the potential seeking weapon defense the ship is capable of would simply make it to immune to seeking weapons for my comfort. It MIGHT be needed. But playtesting would have to show it.

Of course add +1 to all those with Imp.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 11:38 am: Edit

Yaa! New tactics discussion!

So, like, what is a good, solid strategy for the Gorn to fight the Archeo Tholian? I'm currently under the impresison that it is a 6-4 or 7-3 match up in favor of the Tholian, requiring (assuming good play on the part of both players) the Gorn to get significantly lucky to reliably win. But I could be wrong.

I played a fantastic game vs Bear (Alistair) yesterday where we both were crippled by impulse 8 of T2, but due to bad dac results for me (his cripling damage hit 6 phasers and both F torps--mine hit 3 P3s, a snare, and some disruptors, leaving him with 8P1, a P3, a disruptor, a snare and the WC), he was much better off than me, till he made an error and let me shoot a weak sheild to even things up, but then made up for it later by rolling insane damage through a down sheild at R8 with 4 P1s (14...), and even then, it took till T10 for the game to end.

My game looked like:

T1: Go fast, get to the middle of the map. I launched a single real S torp that he had to eat (or web) to get to R8. I figured he wouldn't web the one torp, and he'd probably phaser/eat it, figuring it might be fake, which gives me a free down sheild. In this particular instance, if it was fake, I would have won the game on T2, but there is no way to know that was going to happen. And launching the real one, I got to cycle one sooner, assuming we don't cripple eachother on T2. Anyway, he eats it for about 16 on his #3, casts a web, and we close. At R2, #6 to #6, right before the web solidifes, we blast each other--I hit with 5 P1, a P3, an S and an F bolt. He hits with 7P1 and a couple of disruptors. He has a bit more rienforcement and I had taken a standard disruptor hit there earlier in the turn, so I take 17 in and he takes about 15. But his 17 hits 2P1 and a P3 where my 15 hit a disruptor and a snare. The turn ends with the web between us, but baring an HET, I get to shoot 3 more P1s at R5 through his down sheild on impulse 2.

T2: Impulse 2, he HETs to avoid me killing him. Me then realizing that he is moving speed 10 where I'm 24, nothing significant can shoot till impulse 5 on either of us, I still have an F torp armed, and he probably doesn't have maximum energy in his weapons, I HET into him. I get to range 1 when he doesn't move the next impulse. Sadly, he speed changes to a speed which does move the next impulse. I launch the F torp, but still, no weapons cycle till the next impulse. The next impulse, he slips so our down sheilds face each other. I HET the F torp so it

will hit the next impluse and we shoot each other--me with only 3P1s (the other 3 in arc were blown off), him with all his bearing phasers, many of which are downloaded as P3s, a couple standard disruptors, and the web fist. He misses with the fist and does slightly below average damage with the phasers, and I take another 45 or so internals, while I do about 15 to him. The next impulse, my F hits for 20 more in, evening things up some, but still, I hit no P1s or the remaining snare. I'm solidly in the behind at this point, but I fire my remaining P1s at his #3 (which my first S torp hit), knocking it down to 3 boxes.

T3 (? might have been 4). We wheel around some and he shoots me, knocking a sheild to 3 or 4 boxes, and then he makes a bad move, and lets me shoot 3 P1s through his #3 at R4 or 5 for 10 internals, evening things up (as I hit 4P1s and the second snare), if not putting me in the lead.

T4-7. We kind of chase each other around, trying to get on a down sheild with phasers, me launching the occasional psuedo or real torp to suck up his WC as I chase him to the other map side, hoping to corner him. At some point, I let him see my down #6 at R8, figuring if he does average or less damage with the 4P1s he has to shoot, I'll still be ok. Sadly for me, he does about 14 (13?) damage by rolling really well, and totally tools me, leaving me with 3 P1s, 2 Storps, and 10 total power, and him with 4P1 and the caster still.

Eventually, I catch him against the wall, start hitting him with my plasmas, but on different sheilds. I do a few more internals, finally blow off his caster, but it is too late to save me, as the turn before I can hit him with an enveloping torp, he gets a R1 shot on my down sheild with his phasers, not quite blowing me up.

So I certainly got lucky early (both bolts hit, his phasers rolled down some and then he let me hit a bad sheild when he probably didn't need to), but he got lucky later, and he kept the caster most of the game, which means dead Gorn.

Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out a good anti-Tholian plan :-)

Any ideas?

-Peter

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:06 pm: Edit

I think that by bolting a plasma ship is playing into the hands of the Tholian. I'd like to see some discusion on how to use seekers more effectively. But I can't contribute much to that as I have very little experience fighting Tholians.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:23 pm: Edit

It IS possible to hit a Tholian with launched plasma. Which, of course, you did. To do it you either have to sell the torp as fake, get him to spend his web, launch from close range so the web does not solidify in time, or otherwise make it so he can't just float around and web all your torps. With two snares, the caster on the ATC lasts a long time (you need 3 volleys of at least 15 internals each to even have a 50/50 chance of getting it), but the ship is very vulnerable to power hits, not being long on power to start with and needing a lot of power to do all the stuff he needs to do.

Realistically, the Tholian's nature takes away the plasma ballet, but you still can anchor, bolt, or play the long-forgotten "standard game." Against a plasma ship, it's not a good idea for the Tholian to "play spider." He's got to use the web defensively (or fist, which is NOT what the ATC wants to be doing) because otherwise the risk of getting hit with plasma is just too high.

Since the Tholian's primary armament is phasers, you're doing pretty well if you exchange equal phaser fire, but make him sacrifice something other than the web to deal with your plasmas, or of course if you hit with them. On the downside, the Tholian phaser armament has a lot of kick to it, better than yours, and with better arcs. But the Gorn is a bigger ship and can take more damage (although the ATC takes non-crippling damage very well).

I'm not sure I like bolting on the opening exchange because you just aren't going to do enough damage. Even if you centerline at R5 or are able to turn to bring new weapons in arc, you'll only average about 32 points of damage with your bolts, every three turns. If you don't kill him (and you won't with that kind of damage, even with phasers) you will have a hard time dealing with him for the reload period. However, once you have worn him down a little bit, bolting makes for a good kill shot. Cloaking Romulans can bolt & cloak but you don't get to do that.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Interesting. I don't like bolting on the intial exchange either, but the the options are:

A) Keep the range open and get shot on a flank sheild, which is probably a better trade for the Tholian.

B) Close the range and swap your phasers for his phasers and disruptors, which again, is a better trade for the Tholian.

C) Close the range, bolt, and hope you get lucky.

Like, if you could crash the web and hit the launched plasma (like, ya know, Photons), that'd be great. But you can't. So a great deal of the time, launched plasma is either:

-Small amounts, that the Tholian can outrun or phaser/eat on a flank at his discression, leaving you low on plasma if he closes.

-Large amounts, which he webs, again, leaving you low on plasma in in not such a good spot.

Sure, if you can get a R1 anchor after holding your torps all game, you win, but getting that R1 anchor is *really* difficult, and you get tooled in the meantime by phasers and whatever.

Huh. Still thinking.

-Peter

By James McCubbin (Novahawk) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 04:26 pm: Edit

What happens if you do consistant small amounts like one plasma every 10 impulses while you chase him at full speed?

Turn 1 choose speed 30 holding S-torps as normal.

When you get to range 8 launch an F-torp Turn to get the other F-Torp into arc. Launch it on 13.

Wait 10 more impulses, launch A S-torp. (real or fake)

Wait 10 more impulses, launch B S-torp. (Real or fake)

Wait 10 more impulses, launch B S-torp (real or fake)

Not sure what position you would be in at that point. Pehaps it's been tried and someone can let me know?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 05:03 pm: Edit

If you go fast the torps will be in your own hex. What would be the point of that?

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 05:06 pm: Edit

I am thinking about going medium speed T:1 with a brick, and have a standard torp (real or fake) on the table. Perhaps a late speed change to put you in good chase position if he eats the torps to get a good shot at you? In any case I am for keeping the F for potential close combat use.

By James McCubbin (Novahawk) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Plasmas have a much better turn rate than you do, so as a result of manuevers, they won't be in your hex even if you are moving fast.

By Bill Schoeller (Bigbadbill) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I would assume if you launch an f torp at range 8 and turn off, your opponent will eat it for 14 (prob firing 4 p3 at it), get a range 4-5 OL shot on a rear shield, and outrun the 2nd f torp.

This will leave the plasma ship with 24 from phasers *(eat the shield), and 16-24 from disruptors (2 or 3 hit), and possibly a web fist. Taking 20 internals in exchange for 15 shield damage and the Gorn phasers (15?) on a seperate (?) shield is not a good trade. The Tholian still has the caster on board, and you now have a 60 point anchor for the next 2 turns. This assumes the

I prefer a range 12 30 point launch and slip out. This enables the plasma ship to turn in if the Tholian turns out, and launch up to 50 string launched if the Tholian turns in without using the WC.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 06:31 pm: Edit

James wrote: >>What happens if you do consistant small amounts like one plasma every 10 impulses while you chase him at full speed?>>

Eventually you get enough plasma on the board for him to launch a web, fly through it, and catch your plasma in the web while you have to turn off to avoid ramming the web wall.

I think Bill has the right idea (well, clearly, as that is pretty much what I did :-), and if you can keep up a game of giving him the choice between eating plasma, turning off, or webbing the plasmas while keeping the range open (i.e. above 5), you might be able to get enough of a leg up to go in for a close phaser strike.

-Peter

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Plasma vs. Tholian is a different battle than vs. Klingon or Kzinti for TWO reasons. First, you have to consider the DEFENSIVE impact of the web on the plasmas. Secondly, you have to consider that the Tholian does NOT have a seeking weapon suite to absorb YOUR phasers.

It's important to consider that the Tholian power curve is a major concern for HIM. It takes a LOT of power to rearm that phaser suite AND overload disruptors. The plasma ship (comparitively), has all kinds of extra power. The Tholian HAS to spend lots of power to inflict damage, the plasma ship relatively little.

So, while the web complicates tactics, it does not and CANNOT completely erradicate them. The error the plasma player makes (and I used to make this error) is in thinking the web can do EVERYTHING all at once. While the Tholian has many options with the web - it can only do so much at any given point. That said - how do you adjust tactics.

1) Use plasmas to EITHER encourage or discourage the Tholian to use web defensively. A single S or F by itself is little deterent, and won't likely induce a cast web. But an S/F combo (where the S is a fake) "might" be used to INDUCE the Tholian to empty his web caster to drain his capacitors and create holes of opportunity for the other 80.

2) The power edge for the plasma ship can be put toward speed in order to thwart Tholian attempts to reach OL range. Outside of R8, Tholian firepower is easily manageable. And whereas the Tholian has options for his web, the plasma boat has options for his power - where you can opt for the brick instead of speed - or a combo of the two.

3) It's an error to think of plasmas as only close-range weapons. You do NOT have to close to overload range to get damage from your heavies. Lob an S from R12 and turn away. Prevent R8, and see whether he drains his caster cap to snag a single torp, or does HE turn away?

4) The extra power you have can allow you to contingently plot HET energy. If you turn and slip (and a web appears in front of you), use the opportunity to HET toward the enemy end start lobbing plasma he either has to eat - or has to run from.

5) Consider the utility of the "Chuck & Duck" - launching plasma followed by a weasel (during a knife fight). Does he fire thru the 2-shift, divert phasers to the weasel (while you spin a fresh shield toward him), etc., etc., etc.

There are actually lots of options against the Tholian. MY prefered approach is to think of your plasma torps as a disruptor suite. Brick on turn 1, and plan on lobbing torps 1 at a time at the Tholian, while you dance outside his OL range. When a torp gets close enough where it's guaranteed damage, THEN lob another one.

Your F torp, after phasers, may do only 6 points of damage (the same as 2 regular disruptors hitting). Of course, you get the bonus of draining his phaser cap AND doing the shield ding.

An S-torp, from 11-15 does 22, often better than R8 OL disruptors.

Depending on timing, and movement, you can allow the Tholian to chew on your rear shields, while his forward flanks are getting chipped away, as HE tries to get close. But he cannot pay for the speed to get close AND OL those weapons and recharge those capacitors at the same time. That means a hack & slash attack is likely. That's where the Chuck & Duck can work wonders.

Of course, if you can avoid a major confrontation for 3 turns, then the power of

EPTs can increase dramatically, as his capacitors sap his power curve when you start deploying your second set of torps, (or get him to waste web on your PPTs).

Basically, don't trap yourself into ONLY thinking about the 100 pointz o plazma. Consider the utility of your phaser suite when employed solely for offensive purposes. Open your mind to other possibilities.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 10:14 am: Edit

But an S/F combo (where the S is a fake) "might" be used to INDUCE the Tholian to empty his web caster to drain his capacitors and create holes of opportunity for the other 80. Obviously the EPT would be good for this.

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 10:17 am: Edit

Good thinking, Sandy. I saved it for the day I meet one on SFBOL.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 10:23 am: Edit

CMC. S/F is better than EPT because the EPT is always real.

By David Beeson (Monster) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:48 pm: Edit

When I play archeo-tholian, the only people that scare me are patient people.

I want you to think you have to kill me quick or suffer web nightmares for the rest of your lives.

Sandy ain't kidding about the power curve. If i am forced to fire the web defensively every turn (and assuming i am firing phasers... just phasers), i am sucking wind by turn 3, and by turn 4, parking is looking like a nice option (p.s. it almost never really is)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Yeah, all logic dictates that if you simply try and outlast the Tholian, you should be ok--given a Gorn vs Archeo match up, lobbing a single real torp from about R12 and slipping/turning out so he has to either:

A) Run B) Web C) Eat

The plasma seems reasonable. If he eats it (assuming at, like, 30-phasers), you get a weak sheild, and then keep the range open. Popular consensus says that any time the Tholain throws up a web to fight behind/through, your best option is simply to turn off and come back next turn when he is behind 5 power and try again.

If you can trade roughly equal sheild damage while keeping the range open, and

at some point the Tholian really starts sucking wind, you might then be able to crush him.

-Peter

By Sandy Hemenway (Firemane) on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Righto Carl,

If your aim is to induce the defensive web, then an EPT can do the trick as well (or sometimes better) than the S/F. Unless you're a TKE, then the S/F must always include at least one real torp. Like many options - it's a trade-off.

My best game ever against a Tholian was flying an ISC (not quite as plasma-dependant, but with similar problems). The game went as follows:

T1) Web is thrown to induce me to start my PPD at R16 (or risk not getting it fired at all on T1). So, he bounces most of my PPD, then I turn and lob a rear F at end of T1.

T2) With Tholian dead rear (and about to run thru F-torp #1, I lob the other rear F-torp (range is somewhere around 10-12ish). I then speed change (to 17), turn and immediately slip - thus rolling out the red carpet for a "catch me" web. Tholian RSVPs with 3-hex web I "cannot" avoid.

I HET toward the Tholian before the 2nd F-torp arrives. Thru clever moving he takes on F-torp on a rear flank shield, and the other on a reinforced forward flank (after some phasering).

The reinforcement tells me there aren't any OLs this turn, so I charge in, launching staggered G-torps, which begin 2-hexes apart, but end up 1-hex apart by the end of the turn.

Impulse 32 of T1, I Centerline on the Tholian #2 shield. I'm at R3. I have regular G-torps at R2 and R1 (both are real, though he can't be thinking I'd make BOTH real). Yes, this means I'll have ZERO plasma in the tubes on T3, and I'll be starting T3 at R3 with only a PPD for heavy weapons. We exchange impulse 32 hacks. He takes about 13 ints (loses a snare), while he can't punch me because his phasers got dumped into the F-torps.

T3) I TAC - he starts at speed 25 or so. Lead G-torp hits, and takes out his web caster, (the one he was planning to use to throw web and run thru to avoid the trailing torp). I also destroys his batteries. I tractor him. Due to his speed, he cannot HET or TAC, and the psuedo-speed will NOT move on impulse 2. The 2nd G-torp goes thru the down shield.

He fires his alpha and breeches my shield for 10 ints. At this point, though my

heavies are empty (except a 3-pulse PPD), I'm ahead on internals about 52 to 10. Some shuttle wars ensue, though phasers cycle which prevent anything from getting thru for either party.

My follow up phaser-alpha takes down another screen, but does only 1 int. Finally, late in turn (I'm going -4 at this point), I release the tractor, and move to R4 and fire the PPD on impulse 32. Game over.

=====

The achilles for the Tholian is the power curve, followed closely by the lack of seeking weapons. In many respects it is a Fed with Disruptors. While every weapon is single turn arming, the reality of the Tholian is that he can only afford to fire every other turn (or half his weapons per turn - take your pick).

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 01:00 pm: Edit

Sandy, yeah I read your description of that battle a few years ago. Funny things can happen when flying plasma ships. This spring I fought a neo. I was chasing him, friing phasers and launcing a single torp now and then. When he stopped (T:4?), gasping for breath, I got close for a phaser strike. Luckily he got no overloads so the exchange of fire was about equal. After I moved past him I turned and showed my only torp left, an F, he promptly conceded! But since the only shield left was his #1 (!) I figure it would have been quite futile to continue. I could have been crippled and still win using EPTs. Chasing worked against that NEO, but not so well vs a Archeo later.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 10:33 am: Edit

I was asked for my thoughts on Lyran tactics vs the Field yesterday - writing something up, will post later tonight.

By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Let me help you out there, Ken.

Fed - Pray for crap dice on his part and don't get your ESG's shot off.

Klingon - Don't get your ESG's shot off.

Roms - Go for the radius 1 ESG ram on a cloaked vessel instead of radius 0 and don't get your ESG's shot off.

Kzinti - For the love of God don't get your ESG's shot off.

Gorn - Don't get your ESG's shot off.

Tholians - Fly fast and don't... You may be able to win this one without an ESG or 2. Nah, don't get em shot off...

Orion - Park, weasel, and don't get your ESG's shot off.

Hydran - Keep radius 0 ESG's up on turns where he'll have his hellbores up. Don't let the fighters get to range 2 or less. That would be dumb and you'll just get your ESG's shot off.

WYN Aux - A very tough fight for you, but it helps if you don't get your ESG's shot off.

WYN Shark - Don't get stuck in a knife fight where you'll get your ESG's shot off.

ISC - Conceed instantly and move on to the next opponent. This match up blows and it will save you some time to just throw it. If you're stupid enough to play it out, you'll get your ESG's shot off.

Andro - If you're matched up against one of these, then the tourney is not sanctioned so it won't bother you much when you get your ESG's shot off.

Selt - His Heavy weapons suck so badly that you may actually get a range 3 ram before he shoots your ESG's off.

LDR - Shoot his ESG's off before he shoots yours off.

I hope that helps.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Heh, well Marcus' version is going to be more concise than mine. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts on how the Lyran does against everbody else:

Lyran Tactics vs The Field

Lyran vs BP I’d rate the RPS 5/5, maybe slight edge to plasma. The Gorn is the toughest of the bunch at 4/6 because of all the phasers. I usually approach semi-oblique to draw the 1st torp (usually EPT) as soon as possible, 16/31 with ~8-10 points of disruptor energy (your choice). Turn 2 usually 26, 14/26, or 26/14/26 (depending on if there is an EPT chasing you) to preserve HET opportunities. Usually trac or HET instead of disruptors on T2. Try to use ESG announcements or activations to draw plasma. Usually hold 2 WWs, so that when you eventually corner the BP at the start of a turn you can go 9/4 with OLs (it is sometimes worth eating 1 EPT to get to this position). Don’t need to ram to win.

Lyran vs ISC I used to think this matchup was an automatic win for the ISC, but that was before Jude showed me the Banzai attack (via demonstration on my copper,

haha). RPS 5/5 or maybe even slight edge to Lyran. 16/31 with 3 OLs on turn 1, eating the PPD (hopefully a couple of splashes on the side before you turn in to show your #1) and G torps for a turn 1 ram. The ISC will have a hard time escaping because of the need to keep the PPD in FA arc, which will usually mean either: 1. ISC HETs away after the PPD has fired, allowing R4-5 OL+Mizia on rear shields of ISC, or 2. ESG ram (with, as Marcus points out, your 1 remaining ESG, heh). You can also feint this attack by going 16/31 reinforcing the PPD and outrunning the 1st EPT.

Lyran vs D&D RPS 5/5 (or even 4/6) vs Klingon and Zinti, 4/6 vs Shark, 6/4 vs Neo. I find the drone matchups to be very difficult – the problem is after 1st exchange the D&D is usually in better shape phaser-wise than you are. In addition, your remaining ESG is now empty, while your opponent still has 3 drone racks. Because of this the Lyran must do more internals on the 1st pass, otherwise the Lyran is losing!! Klingon and Kzinti I find a bit easier because they are more fragile, and you can really pound their impulse and batts from range 4. Shark is a tough cookie, with great hull and tons of P3 protection.

The Lyran can try to show the brick at R8 late turn 1, then overrun on turn 2 while the opponent’s weapons are cycling (Vince clobbered my Klingon once with this tactic). Or, 16/31 with 3 OLs, aiming for R4 on T1 (experienced D&D players may deny this, or they may allow it on purpose with an Iron Jaw or with OLs of their own).

More typically, corner-dodge on T1 and end ~r20. 16/31, 16/26, or 14/26 on T2, aiming for R4 overload shot perfect oblique latter half of turn 2. Range 4 is the only range you have any real advantage against these ships, so make it count! After oblique shot, you turn off – if D&D turns in to pursue you will get offside P1 mizia through his down.

The Neo is less problematic because no drones, awkward P1 array, and fragile hull structure.

Lyran vs Aux This is probably your worst opponent, RPS 4/6 or even 3/7. However, Jude seems to think the matchup is ok, so maybe I just don’t know to fly it. I’m assuming LIIT (if no Gat or HB on the Aux then things got much easier for the Lyran). I think the idea is get behind Aux and stay there. Ask Jude for more details, I always find anything with a Gat, HB, and drones to be tough for the Lyran. One thing I do know is critical is that the Lyran should engage at the *end* of turns. Firing early in the turn will get you overrun, anchored, and killed.

Lyran vs Orion RPS 5/5, but do not underestimate the Orion. Many people think PPP1f or PPg1f is best against Lyran, but I think HHgBB can also be extremely effective. With the

HBs to neutralize the ESGs, the Lyran can easily find himself having to deal with 4 drones, Orion overrun with phasers, and Orion shuttles. Be prepared to Tac and WW, and when you do, try not to fire too early in the turn!

Lyran vs ATC RPS 5/5 or 6/4. Do not show R8 on turn 1 - I firmly believe this for any ship facing an ATC, not just Lyran. Turn 1 is pretty much the only turn ATC can really afford OLs, so don’t give him R8! Board position is meaningless because of the caster, so go ahead and corner-dodge. End turn 1 close (~R15), and if he has to recharge the caster, that’s even better. Turn 2 chase at moderate speed with OLs (speed is useless against the ATC unless you’re an Orion). Don’t get phasered at close range from behind the web (this is easy or hard depending on who the ATC captain is). Do not approach an ATC stuck in a W-shaped web – circle and wait for the web to go down. Be aware of opportunities to crash the web, if it will give you a R5 or better OL shot.

Lyran vs Fed RPS 5/5. I like 16/31 with 3 OLs. At speed 31 you can try to arrange a 5-to-3 jump (Jude described this in detail years ago on the BBS). If the Fed is skilled he can prevent this, but it means he will be at R4 off-perfect oblique, or R5 perfect oblique (this is probably best option for Fed actually). If at R4 off-perfect oblique, the Lyran has a couple of choices: 1. Exchange at R4 with 4 OLs, or 2. wait for Fed to HET and fire on his rears with 3 OLs+Mizia (I like this one better actually). If Fed hits with 0-1 phots from R4, Lyran wins. 4 phots, Fed wins. 3 phots, it’s still a game but Fed is winning. 2 phots, it’s still a game but Lyran is winning. Even matchup overall.

Lyran vs LDR Don’t fire late in the turn and get overrun.

Lyran vs Seltorian Don’t fire late in the turn and get overrun.

Lyran vs Hydran RPS 6/4, but this one is actually a lot closer than people think it is, maybe even 5/5. A skilled Hydran will offer the ftrs to prevent range 4, and attempt to make the encounter happen *early* on turn 2. Like all disruptor ships, the Lyran wants the 1st pass to happen *late* in the turn when he has his speed. It might be worth it to let the ftrs have R3 if it will mean a R4 OL shot on the Hydran ship.

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Marcus: How do your tactics account for the fact that the Lyran always loses an

ESG on the first point of internal damage?

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Sheap: that's only true in the Proposed Ship Changes thread.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 11:36 pm: Edit

Lets all remeber that Tactics thread HB's never miss. So ESG shielding is to the good.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 09:13 am: Edit

In the Lyran vs ATC matchup, what does corner dodging really gain you? Unless you do something to force a web cast, the ATC starts turn 2 with the same ability for overloads that it had on turn 1, only with you along the wall and much closer. I agree that you don't really want to give range 8, but you'll need to at least threaten in order to draw web. I don't think you can really do that well with a corner dodge.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 11:16 am: Edit

On turn 1 the ATC can plot slow-fast (usually 15/28) with overloads. Why? Because the opponent is starting 33 hexes away, and the ATC knows the engagement will not happen until the end of the turn. If the Lyran corner-dodges on turn 1, the difference between turn 1 and turn 2 is that the ships are starting at ~r12 instead of r33. The ATC cannot plot slow-fast with overloads again, because there is nothing preventing the Lyran from sprinting out to threaten range 4. In order to prevent range 4, the ATC must do 1 of the following:

1. plot high speed and turn off (power drain, and Lyran is now behind the ATC) 2. cast web late on turn 1 (power drain) 3. cast web early on turn 2 (webcaster used very early in turn)

All 3 are good for the Lyran.

Incidentally, this is the same reason the Hydran often corner-dodges against D&D. Many people think the purpose is to arm the fusions, but that is only half the story. The other purpose is to start turn 2 at ~r12, thereby preventing the D&D ship from plotting slow-fast with overloads. In some matches (especially involving disruptor ships), “when during the turn” is sometimes more important than “where on the map”.

By Ben Moldovan (Shadow1) on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 11:39 pm: Edit

I used to think the Zinti would do pretty well against the Lyran, but having seen and played the match, the Lyran doesn't actually have THAT much trouble with the drones, barring good Kzinti dice and bad DAC rolls. 2 ESG's, and a few phasers, maybe a tractor, and BAM, kiss most of your drones goodbye. Beyond that, the Lyran's weapons suite is better. How do you Zintis deal with that?

I'm thinking the conventional T1 SP launch is actually a pretty bad idea. Granted, the Lyran has to expend resources to deal with the drones, but early in the game his power curve is the best it's going to be. He can handle it. Maybe it's better to save the SP for later.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 12:37 am: Edit

Ben wrote: >>I used to think the Zinti would do pretty well against the Lyran, but having seen and played the match, the Lyran doesn't actually have THAT much trouble with the drones, barring good Kzinti dice and bad DAC rolls.>>

He doesn't have troube with the drones, but if the Lyran uses ESGs on the first 10 drones, and then phasers on the next 4 drones, the game is then the Lyran's disruptors vs the Kzinti's disruptors and phasers. And the next turn, it is the Kzinti's disruptors, phasers, and 3 drone racks vs the Lyran's disruptors and fewer phasers.

It certainly isn't a walkover for the Kzinti, and the Kzinti can lose, but I'd still give it 6-4 for the Kzinti.

>> 2 ESG's, and a few phasers, maybe a tractor, and BAM, kiss most of your drones goodbye.>>

After 2 ESGs, a few phasers, and a tractor, the Lyran doesn't have anything left to shoot the Kzinti with.

2 ESGs kill the first 10 drones. The Lyran still has to then deal with the 4 drones launched, of which 3 are potentially type IVs.

>> Beyond that, the Lyran's weapons suite is better. How do you Zintis deal with that?>>

Go fast. Arm overloads. Launch 10 drones on T1 and don't engage till turn 2. If they Lyran stops and weasels, there is a game, and the Kzinti needs to use the speed advantage to win that. If they Lyran runs around the edge of the map, the Kzinti likely does internals before the Lyran comes about to fight.

-Peter

By William T Wilson (Sheap) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 02:17 am: Edit

I'm of the opinion that the Lyran should weasel the first 10 drones, if indeed that is how the Kzinti approaches. The ESGs and phasers necessary to kill the drones will leave the Lyran unable to deal with the Kzinti ship. Use a WW on the first drone wave, and then use the ESGs to deter the Kzinti from overrunning and anchoring you after you have weaseled. The Kzinti's range-4 direct fire damage is not that hot, especially compared to the Lyran; if you can keep him out there

most of the game (or make him pay to get closer), you are doing OK.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 09:02 am: Edit

I agree with Peter. You need to force the Lyran to exchange firepower for drone defense. The trick is *where* your ship is relative to the drone wave. If you are too far away from your drone wave, then the Lyran will destroy the drone wave, turn off, and have an opportunity to reload and recycle his weapons. This is bad for the Zin.

Instead, you need to be roughly 4-5 hexes behind your own drone wave. Whereas the Lyran can hit you at r6-8 and turn off before dealing with your drones, you can take this strike on a side shield with perhaps only a few internals. Even if the Lyran uses his UIM you will take about 36 points. A small brick can prevent internals. Be sure to blast him with your own strikes. If you are closer than 5 hexes then the Lyran gets his optimum range 4 shot, so don't be closer than 4 hexes behind your drone wave.

Then, turn into the Lyran to bring the good shield up and pursue at speed 20. Whereas the Lyran can run, he can't run forever because powering his weapons takes too much energy. If he goes really fast (like speed 30) to try to run around the edge and outrun the drones, then you are shooting him without him shooting back.

If he uses ESGs and phasers on your drone wave, then you are ahead. Close in and blast away.

If he stops and weasels, then you are close enough behind the drone wave that you will be on top of him quickly where you can get a range 0 shot. Like Peter said, you want this to happen on T2 so that your drone racks have recycled. If he weasels, then you will have your 3 bubbas (and possibly 1 standard) to launch at r1 timed to hit on the following impulse. Doing this denies ID and tractors, so that he is forced to spend a significant fraction of his firepower on your drones, whereas you get to use all of your firepower on him.

If he parks and turns on his ESGS, close and blast.

There is another school of thought that says you should follow your drone wave in. I think you will take *too* much damage in this case, so I disfavor this approach.

Overall, I would give the Zin 6-4 against the Lyran - unless you blow the drone wave. Then it's 4-6 or even 3-7.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 10:06 am: Edit

William wrote: >>I'm of the opinion that the Lyran should weasel the first 10 drones, if indeed

that is how the Kzinti approaches.>>

I'm of the same opinion. But as I'm usually the Kzinti, I'm perfectly happy for the Lyrans to believe otherwise :-)

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Ted wrote: >>I agree with Peter. You need to force the Lyran to exchange firepower for drone defense. The trick is *where* your ship is relative to the drone wave. If you are too far away from your drone wave, then the Lyran will destroy the drone wave, turn off, and have an opportunity to reload and recycle his weapons. This is bad for the Zin.>>

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of the Kzinti T1 corner dodge in this match up--get 10 drones on the map in two groups about 4 hexes apart, with you about 2 or 3 hexes behind the back group of drones, and ending the turn at R8 or 9 if you can pull it off.

If he ESGs the drones, that is fine, as you want his ESG to be spent on your first 10 drones. If he weasels the first 10 drones, at least you get to compromise his AFC activation by spreading the first 10 out like that.

>>Instead, you need to be roughly 4-5 hexes behind your own drone wave. Whereas the Lyran can hit you at r6-8 and turn off before dealing with your drones, you can take this strike on a side shield with perhaps only a few internals.>>

The Kzinti is usually perfectly happy with the Lyran shooting at 6-8 and turning off, for my money--if he is running, he won't do much damage due to less power in overloads; if he has full overloads, you might take a few internals (through your #2 or #6, of course) and you'll probably end up at R4 or closer on a flank sheild anyway, due to likely having more power in movement (I'm of the school of arming 3 OLs and going 4 points faster, 'cause you might lose the 4th disruptor anyway to damage, and if you don't, you can always use batteries)--the Lyran has more power, but he needs to have OLs to do damage, probably has some shuttles armed, and probably has a couple points in tractor, giving the Kzinti a not insignificant power edge in this situation.

>>If he uses ESGs and phasers on your drone wave, then you are ahead. Close in and blast away.>>

The general exchange where the tactics for this match up starts is the Lyran trading ESG for the first 10 drones, and then having to use most of his phasers to shoot down the next 4 fast heavy drones. When the ships shoot each other, the

Kzinti has OLs and phasers; the Lyran just has OLs. The Kzinti wins. Where the Lyran has to make this game work is by avoiding that particular exchange.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 04:27 pm: Edit

"The Lyran should weasel the first 10 drones." Disagree strongly, this is a horrible idea for the Lyran. Weaseling gives up the initiative, and allows the Kzinti to even up the direct firepower by closing to knifefight range. In addition, it is *very* hard to get the ESGs up after the WW is destroyed, since an ESG announcement immediately voids the WW, leaving the Lyran vulnerable to fast drone launch from the Kzin.

"the Lyran can hit you at r6-8 and turn off..." How is this even relevant? This is the same as saying "if the Lyran plays like a dum**ss the Kzinti really has the advantage." Well obviously.

The Lyran needs to get a R4 OL strike and avoid being anchored, and then it is an even game. Otherwise, the Lyran hasn't used the few advantages he has, and should be mauled by the Zin.

As for the 1st pass, playing the Lyran is all about timing, and if he lets the Zin start the turn at R9 then the Lyran made a mistake.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>"The Lyran should weasel the first 10 drones." Disagree strongly, this is a horrible idea for the Lyran.>>

I don't know what to tell you. The Lyrans that I have lost to, in, like, 12 years of competetive play have either weaseled the first 10 drones, or killed me 'cause I made a really stupid mistake (like, say, forgetting that drone launch comes before the ESGs going up when I am at R3 from a Lyran the impulse that the ESGs go up...). The Lyrans that have ESGed/shot down my drones? I pretty much killed them all.

>>Weaseling gives up the initiative, and allows the Kzinti to even up the direct firepower by closing to knifefight range.>>

True. But killing the 10 drones with your ESGs is more likely to get you killed that tne weasel is.

>>"the Lyran can hit you at r6-8 and turn off..." How is this even relevant?>>

It is relevant 'cause it is an option, and one that people might look at as a reasonable plan. I'm here pointing out that it isn't.

>>The Lyran needs to get a R4 OL strike and avoid being anchored, and then it is an even game. Otherwise, the Lyran hasn't used the few advantages he has, and should be mauled by the Zin.>>

Yep. Although I don't think the R4 OL strike is actually all that useful either.

The Kzinti is going to have more power somewhere--the Lyran probably has 16 in disruptors (maybe some of that batteries); a few points in shuttles, and probably a few points in tractors. The Kzinti (well, the way I play a Kzinti, which isn't real concerned about anrchoring, which tends to give me a not insignificant power edge in most games) has power in speed and 3 OLds. If I get shot at R4, I take some internals (losing an unloaded disruptor, a drone rack that has launched a drone, and a few P3s that aren't going to be in arc when I shoot the Lyran anyway), and then get to R2 on the flank of a Lyran who is trying to avoid getting anchored, shoot, and do just as many, if not more internals. Trading equal internals with the Kzinti is a really bad trade for the Lyran.

>>As for the 1st pass, playing the Lyran is all about timing, and if he lets the Zin start the turn at R9 then the Lyran made a mistake.>>

I'm not quite sure how the Lyran can avoid it other than by turning off, and starting the turn at, like, R20 (which might be the best option, but might also result in barfing overloads into space). If the Lyran has overloads on T1 (maybe two and two? I dunno) and a few shuttles armed, the Lyran isn't getting all that far on T1. The Kzinti can probably, with a corner dodge and turn in late, end the turn at either R9 or R8 with the Lyran facing a rienforced sheild. If the Lyran shoots everything on impulse 32 into the rienforced sheild, he is starting T2 down a bunch of power, unable to shoot before impulse 8, and probably didn't even do any internals.

I'd never claim that the Kzinti is unbeatable for the Lyran. But it is certainly a game that favors the Kzinti, and the best option the Lyran has is to deal with the 10 drones the Kzinti launches on T1 in some way other than the ESGs.

-Peter

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 04:51 pm: Edit

When I've played the Kzinti, I've always been happy to see my opponent weasel. Once they are stopped, I control the range, which means that I'll get a shot at my optimal range/time. There may not be another ship in the game as good at punishing parkers as the Kzinti.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:03 pm: Edit

"and then get to R2 on the flank of a Lyran..."

Sounds like some mighty cooperative Lyrans you've been playing there, Peter. Not all Lyrans are going to let you get to R2 on the 1st pass.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>Sounds like some mighty cooperative Lyrans you've been playing there, Peter. >>

Hardly. Most of them don't try firing at R4 and turning off, hoping to avoid R2. 'Cause it is a difficult thing to do.

>>Not all Lyrans are going to let you get to R2 on the 1st pass.>>

What are they going to do to avoid it?

Assuming the Lyran shoots at R4, even on a perfect oblique with a satisfied turn mode, if the Lyran has 16 in disruptors, say, 2 in shuttles and 2 in tractors (and most of the time, the Lyran has more in one of these) where the Kzinti has 12 in disruptors and maybe 1 in a SS, the Kzinti is ahead about 5 power. Which means that the Kzinti is going to gain those two hexes eventually.

The Lyran *can* avoid R2 either by firing at farther than R4, or by not overloading a few disruptors, either of which works ok for the Kzinti in the long run.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Brian wrote: >>When I've played the Kzinti, I've always been happy to see my opponent weasel. Once they are stopped, I control the range, which means that I'll get a shot at my optimal range/time. There may not be another ship in the game as good at punishing parkers as the Kzinti.>>

Sure. But for the Lyran in particular, dealing with 14 drones on a single turn (which is what the Lyran needs to do, unless it decides to run around at high speed without disruptors armed, and that has its own problems), or over two turns if the ESGs are killing 10 of those drones, is going to get it killed. Weaseling them might not get it killed.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:21 pm: Edit

"What are they going to do to avoid it?" Oblique attack.

Especially if Lyran starts the turn at ~R20, the engagement will happen late on turn 2, and even if the Lyran *doesn't* get a perfect oblique, the Zin will not have

very much of the turn left to close to R2. (This is why a Lyran that ended the turn at R9 made a mistake).

Willing to play it out online in a Lyran-Kzinti challenge? Say, set of 6 games? I do think the Zin is slightly advantaged, but for the sake of this argument I'll concede a little bit and say the Lyran can win at least 3.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>Especially if Lyran starts the turn at ~R20, the engagement will happen late on turn 2, and even if the Lyran *doesn't* get a perfect oblique, the Zin will not have very much of the turn left to close to R2. (This is why a Lyran that ended the turn at R9 made a mistake).>>

Sure--if the Lyran doesn't close on T1, and can engage late on T2, the Lyran is ahead of the game, but this doesn't happen all that often--maybe the reason that Lyrans are viewed as so sketchy is 'cause folks *still* don't know how to fly them.

>>Willing to play it out online in a Lyran-Kzinti challenge? Say, set of 6 games?>>

Sadly, I have enough trouble getting in, like, my 1 or 2 scheduled tournament games a month. But maybe when I get bombed out of RAT19 in my Gorn, I'll see if we can get at least one in.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 05:38 pm: Edit

Cool, I look forward to crossing swords with you Peter. Never had the opportunity to play you, and have always wanted to.

Cheers, Ken

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 01:08 am: Edit

Well, Ken, as another Kzinti fan I'd also be happy to take you up on the challenge. Plus, it will get me some nice bragging rights to say that I defeated a fleet captain

in his own ship.

Then again, I don't think like Peter seems to think that the Lyran is that disadvantaged against the Zin. The Lyran has a better phaser suite, a 1 time UIM that can be telling at r4, and two more points in absolute power. Overall, I'd give the matchup a 6/4 in favor of the Zin, (assuming you don't blow the drone wave) but that's just me. I wouldn't argue too hard with someone that wanted to give it

a 5/5, though it is definitely not a 4/6 for the Zin.

This whole discussion got started on the question of "how to deal with the Lyran when flying the Zin." It seems that everyone is in agreement with that much, at

least, from the above posts.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 01:04 pm: Edit

Yeah, I think we are all pretty much in agreement on the RPS. I think the biggest point being debated was what the Lyran should be doing (whether to weasel the 1st 10 drones or not). It doesn't seem like this is a question that would be answered by doing a challenge anyhow, so playing it out would be essentially just for fun, rather than to prove any sort of RPS.

Would love to do this matchup with you Ted, I'll keep an eye out for you online.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Ken wrote: >>Yeah, I think we are all pretty much in agreement on the RPS. I think the biggest point being debated was what the Lyran should be doing (whether to weasel the 1st 10 drones or not). It doesn't seem like this is a question that would be answered by doing a challenge anyhow, so playing it out would be essentially just for fun, rather than to prove any sort of RPS.>>

Pretty much. I suspect that, yeah, the big question is "How *should* the Lyran play this fight?" Again, I have played against an awful lot of Lyrans in, like, 10 years of Origins, and killed most of them, including some multi ace "name" players, in my Kzinti.

The only game I can remember losing was to Jude a few years back, and while nothing is certain, it is likely what killed me more than anything was the aformentioned situation where I forgot the sequence of play--I was at R3 from Jude the impulse his ESGs were going up. Forgetting that drones launch *before* the ESGs go up, I neglected to launch drones, hoping to see the radius of the ESG first. But then the ESGs went up in my hex, I took them full in the face (minus 1 hastily launched shuttle), and it all went down hill from there.

Of most of the others, the game plans generally tended towards:

A) Use ESGs to eat first 10 drones. We get close on T2, swap alphas, Kzinti has significant advantage due to all of the Lyrans phasers being needed to kill 4 fast drones launched at close range. I usually win.

B) Use ESGs to eat first 10 drones. Fire OLs at 8 and turn off. Run around the map for a few turns reloading while Kzinti chases and takes down flank sheilds. Eventually, Lyran takes internals, loses an ESG, and the game degenerates into

game (A) above. I usually win.

C) Lyran weasels first 10 drones. He shoots some, I shoot some, I turn off and come back when he is moving speed 10. Game eventually degenerates into game (A) above. Kind of a toss up.

It is certainly possible that there is a better way for the Lyran to play this. The plan you have more or less proposed (end T1 at about R20, engage on T2 near the end of the turn at R4) seems like a good one, but a difficult one to set up (especially if the Kzinti is agressive on T1, charging in with OLs, which isn't that unlikely in a grand sense).

-Peter

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 08:46 am: Edit

Coming in out of the woodwork....here's some comments from the twilight zone...

Brian had commented that "There may not be another ship in the game as good at punishing parkers as the Kzinti. " I think the Hydran can argue his case there as well.

I don't have the exact quote, but Ken commented that the Hydran might corner dodge against D&D turn 1. I can't speak for all Hydrans, but I'd certainly never do that. I'm trying to corner them on turn 2 and crush them, so I come out to the middle and basically come right at them while attempting to preserve my #1. (That about sums up my strategy against about everyone, now that I think about it, other than Orions)

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 09:29 am: Edit

Tim wrote: >>I don't have the exact quote, but Ken commented that the Hydran might corner dodge against D&D turn 1. I can't speak for all Hydrans, but I'd certainly never do that. I'm trying to corner them on turn 2 and crush them, so I come out to the middle and basically come right at them while attempting to preserve my #1.>>

Well, ya know, unless you are star castling :-)

In reference to Brian's comment, yeah, the Kzinti is good at punishing folks for weaseling, but I don't think the best time to do that is the turn that they weasel. Take the best shot you can and leave (if you can get a sucker shot at 8 and turn off to 9 the next impulse so they don't get to return fire, all the better), and come back when they try to accelerate.

The turn that they stop, you have lost most of your drones; you have 16+ energy in movement where they have, like, 4; they are TACing so they pick which (rienforced) sheild gets shot; you aren't going to tractor them 'cause they have more power in tractors.

So unless you plotted *knowing* they were going to weasel (which is risky in case they don't), you are likely going to get hosed when you over run the stopped opponent. Shoot what you can, turn off, and come back later.

-Peter

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 09:54 am: Edit

Hey Tim! You back?

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 10:11 am: Edit

Well, I am going to stay out of any topic that doesn't actually deal with the game, but yeah.

Am debating the Council, but don't think I can make it, since I have a Vegas trip this month.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Welcome back Tim! It would be great to see you at Council.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Quote:

In reference to Brian's comment, yeah, the Kzinti is good at punishing folks for weaseling, but I don't think the best time to do that is the turn that they weasel. Take the best shot you can and leave (if you can get a sucker shot at 8 and turn off to 9 the next impulse so they don't get to return fire, all the better), and come back when they try to accelerate.

I agree with you, when they are parked the entire turn. An unplanned weasel, is a different story, and should be attacked immediately, ending the turn at r1 if possible(against most opponents).

By Ralph Wiazowski (Ralph) on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:03 am: Edit

*Sounds like some mighty cooperative Lyrans you've been playing there, Peter. Not all Lyrans are going to let you get to R2 on the 1st pass. *

"Lyrans" with plasma, say around 100 points...

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:12 am: Edit

In my experience what kills Lyrans most is the judges mistaking the ESG rules.

By Dave Steele (Blackknight) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Hmm, Lyran vs Kzinti... I'm not (not,not,not) a great Lyran player, but has anybody tried going fast on the attack run, slip around the drones (I'm obviously assuming speed 20 drones) and then overrunning the Kzinti with ESG's? Not sure if you could get the ESG's up to make this work. Might have to ahve the drones inside the ESG, which runs counter to docterine, but what the heck.

There are several obvious counters, the easiest being the Kzinti firing then turning tail and running like a scalded cat until he can get some more drones out. After the overrun (Lyran) runs until beginning to Tx then weasels with the 4/14 split to minimize his downtime. A good ESG ram+disrupters+phasers should do enough internals to break a drone and a disrupter. Now you only deal with 3 fasts the next turn.

Just brainstorming, feel free to rip it apart.

Blackknight

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 12:16 am: Edit

Try it and see what happens! >8)

CatWhoEatsPhotons

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 10:19 am: Edit

Peter and I played a few years ago at Origins and it wasn't much of a game.

I dont remember the details, but I manuevered poorly and ended up quite dead.

I agree with Ken on his stratagy, The Lyran needs to make the first pass r4 oblique, and make the first engagement come out in his favor

And while I think that using the early usually will get you killed, but there is nothing sweeter than an ESG ram on the last impulse of an ED decel period.

Gregg

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 05:36 pm: Edit

BK: You don't want to deal with 10 drones at the same time as a kzinti cruiser, and even speed 20 drones can force your movement. ESG ram and weasel is going to be nigh impossible against a sober kzinti.

In general I like to flatten the SP with an ESG and 2 p3s on turn one. Outrun the kzinti on turn two since he is keeping pace with his first turn's rack drones. Turn 3 the ESGs have cooled and you have options for how to deal with the kzinti.

By Dave Steele (Blackknight) on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Quote:

ESG ram and weasel is going to be nigh impossible against a sober kzinti

So make sure he isn't sober... hehehe. Ya, I wasn't sure if that one could be pulled off, but it is fun to think about. The more I turned it over in my head though, the less likely I figured it would be. I think you could probably slip around the drones, but they would provide terrain that the Kat could dodge behind to keep you from getting too close with the ESG's.

BlackKnight

By Norman Cruz (Cruiser) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 02:38 am: Edit

Hey guys. Its been quite some time since my last post (2+ years) but was just thinking about the game recently and went message board browsing and couldn’t resist commenting on this topic. Coming from someone who has never lost to a

Lyran in this matchup (or so that is how I like to remember it ), I believe the Lyran is heavily advantaged.

It may seem easy for the Kzin to dictate when engagement will occur simply by corner dodging on T1. I’ve arranged an early Turn 2 pass many times in the past. However, I think it is much easier for the Lyran to arrange a range 4 pass either mid to late Turn 2 than it is for the Kzinti to arrange a pass early in Turn 2.

The main reason for this are the drones. The Kzinti’s movement is dictated by where its drones are. It must stay near its drones. For that reason, the Lyran will always know generally where the Kzinti will be and can plan ahead. As described by Paul Scott some years ago, once the Kzinti puts out the pack, it is “on the clock”. If the Kzinti tries to delay or hasten (more likely hasten) engagement, the drones wont be where they need to be when engagement occurs. If the Kzinti runs past the drones to try to get an earlier Turn 2 engagement, it will get rammed (which I believe we all agree is not a good thing for the Kzin). For that reason, the Lyran, if it plans Turn 1 well, should be able to arrange a range 4 OL shot late enough during Turn 2 to avoid the Kzinti from closing to range 2 that

turn. Assuming both players play mistake free, the Kzinti cannot get its way on the first pass simply because it’s movement is so restricted by its drones.

So then, starting with the assumption that the Lyran gets its range 4 UIM shot without reaching range 2 in the same turn, the Kzinti should be significantly behind at this point. Not just because of the loss of a disruptor and drone (which are nice), but the loss of power plus the loss of a front shield really hurt (with more likely than not a down #5 shield for the Lyran). If 4 OLs hit, I think its over. Thats way too many internals to take without dishing back something significant in return. If 3 OLs hit, its closer, but still the big edge goes to the Lyran in my opinion.

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 10:41 am: Edit

Norm!!

By Carl-Magnus Carlsson (Thereplicant) on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Hm, the situation above seems to assume the drones on the table are medium ones. But if the Kzin want to "hasten" the engagement, wouldn't he want rack launced fast drones on the table? Would this make a difference?

By Norman Cruz (Cruiser) on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:27 am: Edit

Good question Carl. I was just assuming a six pack of medium drones since most like to keep he 8 fasties in the tubes. I have not given that situation enough thought from the Lyran perspective, but you are right that the Kzin can now go fast. Of course, the downsides are (1) the Lyran knows the Kzin must go fast to stay with the drones (and the Kzin will certainly want to stay with them), (2) the Kzin no longer has the ability to launch 2 sets of fasties from the tubes (knowledge of this allows the Lyran in certain situations to do things it never would otherwise do), (3) going fast on T2 is not necessarily an advantage (as you have less power in the disruptors) and (4) tough for the Kzin to time when to launch the pack (launching too early, for example, could force the Kzinti to get to range 8 or closer on T1). The opposite problem occurs in that once the pack is launched, the Kzin will not be able to delay engagement. However, as I said, I haven’t fully thought this one out but it sounds like it could be a viable strategy. Anything that can disrupt the Lyran from getting a range 4 shot without getting hit back with a range 2 shot in the same turn is a good strategy, and maybe putting 6 fasties in the pack can do this by allowing the Kzinti to charge with speed on T2.

Something else to think about – maybe letting the Lyran get a range 6-8 shot on T1 is also the way to go to avoid burying yourself in the far corner and also avoiding the range 4 exchange. Of course, the downside is that you will be chasing with a down front shield. There are always downsides.

By Norman Cruz (Cruiser) on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 10:27 am: Edit

Hey Ken. Congrats on the Hat!

By Ken Lin (Old_School) on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Thanks bud. Are you coming back? Hoping to see you back on SFBOL...

By Jay Paulson (Etjake) on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 11:02 pm: Edit

Also launching fast drones early may cause a Lyran player to plot a midturn weasel or plot a rnage 15 disrupter shot folowed by running for a starcastle next tur.