Transcript
We are here to debate the veracity of a book that concerns upheavals of life,
challenges to how one thinks and believes, holding onto values, miracles
and prophesies.
The main characters are four youth who were born in a time of (Josiah’s)
reform and in their teen years captured and carried off to what is
now modern Iraq. We are discussing: The book of Daniel
I and my colleagues will be defending the view that Daniel is a trustworthy
ancient document
CS Lewis:
In this debate, I and my fellow faculty members will be
holding our esteemed guests’ views accountable to scrutiny and
the sensibilities of free thinkers.
And so… let the game be afoot!
Look! In the spirit of abracadabra and spells!
‘Daniel’ can’t even ‘spell’ there is no name or word Belteshazzar
or Abednego
in the ancient languages. The ball is in your court gentlemen.
McGonagall:
I’ll take that. Good question but then again Jews weren’t allowed to take the
names of foreign godz in their mouths
Belshazzar (without the ‘te') is a historical name both of a crown prince, not our guy,
and a high official, yes our guy. Daniel could have deliberately ‘messed up the names’ inserting letters and contracting letters
Fred Rogers:
ObedNebo (servant of Nebo) becomes Obednego Mushalim-Marduk (Babylonian form of Mishael + Marduk) —> contracts to Meshak These appear on artifacts such
as the Istanbul Prism
Belshazzar ( Bel’s treasure keeper) becomes Belte-shazzar (woman’s treasure)
obfuscating the pagan name
Fred Rogers:
Hannaniah is on a monument. In fact if you think about it for Hannaniah to set aside the name given by a king (who orders people’s deaths on a whim) and make a
monument with his Hebrew name is remarkable
It makes perfect sense the Hebrew guys would ‘mess with’ their king
given pagan names which they didn’t like.
Fred Rogers:
He who asserts must prove, sir. It does not do well to dwell on dreams
and forget to live.
McGonagall:
You can find copies references summarized in a recent book from ICR UK by Bill Cooper The
Authenticity of the Book of Daniel, Mum!
Fred Rogers:
The Istanbul Prism, a five sided clay artifact with names such as Mushallim-Marduk (Meshak) and Hanuni (Hananiah) and Ardi Nabo (Abed Nebo aka
Abednego)
Belshazzar the crown prince and son of Nebechadnezzar appears with that spelling in cuneiform and is the party prince of chapter 5
with the handwriting on the wall… probably happy with the name the god Bel’s treasure
Fred Rogers:
Ball back in you’re court, Mum!
Fred Rogers:
And I’ll run with that ball in a different direction, face it. The book is a cobbled together mishmash
You know… the stuff of Bel and the Dragon… no more
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
Pardon me if I might intercepting that ball, but as a professor of ancient literature
I have to disagree. For starters, I see a carefully constructed literary chiasm.
CS Lewis:
Or maybe chi by eye. Prove it.
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
To scratch the surface, the begin and end are to the Jews and are in Hebrew The middle is written in imperial Aramaic
and makes the switch when the magicians of the court ‘answered back in Aramaic’
CS Lewis:
Was that a magician crack?
Sybill Trelawney is the professor of Divination:
No mam, it suggests structure. There is a great deal of balance and care in the book
Daniel solves two of the kings dreams in the beginning Daniel has two of his own that are puzzling at the end
CS Lewis:
Furthermore we might say the dreams of Daniel and the dreams of the king are
similar and contrasting in a cohesive manner. It’s a very organized book.
CS Lewis:
An example of an internal consistency I see consistent with the Bible is that Daniel began his illustrious career
by doing something that saved all the wise men in Babylon from being killed
and yet twice in the book the wise men tried to kill Daniel or his friends I see that as morally consistent with
a Biblical hero showing mercy first
Jonathan Edwards:
An example of an internal consistency os contrasting sort I see consistent with the Bible is that Daniel ends
being told to seal up his words for the future
and in the future in Revelation, the book ends saying don’t seal up the words for the time is at hand,
presumably since Jesus has come.
Jonathan Edwards:
I could go on an on… but another act consistent with a gracious providence is that the attacks against Daniel and his friends resulted in protections for those who
worshipped the God of Abraham
and so this would be consistent with how God’s character and his covenant love.
Jonathan Edwards:
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds But really… the lions den… get on with that!
Albus Dumbledore:
Thank you for bringing that up, sir Belshazzar was a historical person (aka Daniel)
and is in the records. There is a list of officials thrown to lions and killed
by them Daniel is not on the list
Jonathan Edwards:
Isn’t that odd.
Jonathan Edwards:
Pish posh ! The fiery furnace? Even wands burn in the fire.
Albus Dumbledore:
Thank you again for bringing that up The Babylonians did throw blasphemers
into a fiery furnace making the claim fit the historical setting quite well.
Jonathan Edwards:
The king going mad then un-mad? Really?
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
Once again pardon me for interrupting,the Jews were in captivity 70 years as foretold by Jeremiah. The King being exiled and
restored after 7 seasons (winter and summer being their season, possibly 3.5 years would be a wonderful object lesson
to the Jews of a future restoration.
CS Lewis:
Fanciful thought? any proof?
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
As a matter of record the King had a time of about 4 years if
madness
CS Lewis:
And if I may jump in, one would expect a king to brag of his military
conquests and yet the Bible says he bragged on what he built and that is what the archeological
records show.
Jonathan Edwards:
And if I may also jump in, the King’s prayer honoring the God of Heaven above all other godz appears to be consistent with a palace
inscription according to Langhorn’s Konogsinschriften
Fred Rogers:
Let’s reign this in a bit. The handwriting in the wall?
preposterous except maybe in Harry Potter’s school
McGonagall:
Good question and a philosopher once said Daniel’s faith endured despite going to ‘Harry Potter’s school’
Fred Rogers:
The opponents did in fact damn up the river going into Babylon and took the
city over in one night as the Bible claims during a drunken party. We didn’t see
the handwriting ‘appear’ on the wall but what we do see ‘appears’ true.
Fred Rogers:
And if I may interject, the Bible shows allot of examples of bad judgement during parties where alcohol was abused: Herod’s party where his daughter danced,
here, the King who divorced his wife Vashti …
Jonathan Edwards:
But really. How about a meaningful prophesy. Something surpassing ‘neither can live while the other
survives’ if you please?
Sybill Trelawney is the professor of Divination:
I’ll take that one, the prince of princes, the Messiah, shall be cut off and sin will be done away with, prophesy sealed up
and righteousness ushered in
They tasted Jesus at the cross that ‘He saved others but He cannot save Himself’
and that was true. In order to save others He had to die but He also rose.
CS Lewis:
I’ve had enough You are all dead
CS Lewis, Mr Rogers, Jonathan Edwards !! Begone!
McGonagall:
Daniel was promised there would be a resurrection of the righteous and and unrighteous
You may call me Mr Rogers, but most people don't know I was a Presbyterian minister as well. And yes
dead but in a sense I live.
Fred Rogers:
I said begone! Why are you still here?
McGonagall:
Daniel was promised he would go to his rest and so shall we.
Though dead we still live. So in a sense we are still here.
CS Lewis:
Does’t look like our guests are quite ready to go. Of course, Of course, it goes without saying that
we all believe in higher powers. We’ve all got both light and dark inside us
what matters is the part we choose to act on that’s who we really are.
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
As did the King of Babylon He believed in all manner of higher powers
including himself he named the Hebrew youths
after his godz
In fact after Daniel interpreted the Kings first dream The King was grateful and fell
down on the ground before Daniel and offered intense and sacrifice to Daniel
CS Lewis:
Wonderful! We all have and appreciated our higher powers
Some of us even teach others to have their own higher powers
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody:
It looked like the king worshipped God … alas not.
But yes, wonderful. The king would have quite a wonderful and
humbling journey to the real God King’s dream slides please !!
CS Lewis:
Dream 1
Head of Gold Feet of clay
Babylon is golden the kingdoms to follow
will be lesser a rock will shatter all
and fill the earth with a lasting kingdom
The King doesn’t take the dream to heart
Builds a stature All Gold
Forgets the part about the rock and everyone should pray to me, setting aside the rock that is the ultimate kingdom
Worship me or perish! A heart respectful but not in
love with God
Note: the statue is in the plain of Shiner Shiner being the named location of the
attempted construction of the tower of Babel
Dream 2 But a hard heart can be softened
The King cut down to a stump
The king, the golden head, humbled for 7 seasons
The king in a mini exile from his kingdom portending the restoration of Israel at the end of 70 years
And a proclamation by the king after being restored and the center thought of the book
The book is organized like a stairway (or two) up to the middle then down
CS Lewis:
Hebrew (to Israel) A Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream Hebrew
Aramaic (to the world) B God’s servants rescued from fiery furnace
C Nebuchadnezzar judged (another dream) D Nebuchadnezzar’s proclamation
C Belshazzar judged (handwriting on wall) B God’s servant rescued from lions den
Hebrew (to Israel) A Daniel Dreams ( ending and since it’s a long ending maybe a second step all Hebrew) E Details on post-Babylonian kingdoms (persecution) F God’s people restored (preservation and victory) E More details on post-Babylonian kingdoms (persecution)
Perhaps like so….
The king did not worship God by merely being relieved or momentarily enthused
or tipping his hat to God on occasion or even a pretentious claim no matter how true
or by making laws honoring Daniel’s God.
CS Lewis:
Enough! Enough! Daniel was made up centuries later by the Maccabees
as a propaganda device to stir people up to fight
Rubeus Hagrid:
There are only three borrow words from greek in the whole book. That is more consistent with
the book written at the claimed time than during the Maccabean time. We would expect many scads of words
if that were the case.
CS Lewis:
Nor does it make military sense to make up a book and try to pass it off as scripture the same year
to devout Jews They wouldn’t buy it.
Fred Rogers:
And pardon me for repeating myself… how would a person many centuries later know the
king bragged not about military conquests but architectural. They would likely guess wrong because smart money would say the king would
brag of wars fought.
Jonathan Edwards:
The book references a sexagesimal mathematical system which would place it 6th century
and centuries prior to Maccabees
Yes… let’s move on… So, are you starting to see the handwriting on the wall?
It spells Jesus all over Daniel
CS Lewis:
Excuse me? Jesus?
How, pray tell is Jesus in the book?
Slughorn:
He is the rock in the king’s dream who will have the final kingdom
Fred Rogers:
He is the fourth man in the fiery furnace walking with his friends.
Jonathan Edwards:
He is the son of man coming with the clouds to be worshiped and served by all peoples of the earth
CS Lewis:
The prince of princes is the Messiah who will put an end to sin by his death, preserve his servant by his life
and make them suitable for worship of God in spirit and truth,
whether you or me
Fred Rogers:
We could go on…. as in Psalm 8 he is the one who will set the world right. Though the kingdoms be beastly and running amuck, he will make the
world a peaceable kingdom
Jonathan Edwards:
Hmm Psalm 8?….Speaking of time… that might make for a discussion another time
thank you sirs for visiting us and whether Daniel went to a school like Harry Potters is a matter of debate as well.
Albus Dumbledore:
It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand
up to our friends
Now alas we must bid you farewell.
Albus Dumbledore:
And on your way ….
Albus Dumbledore:
What’s happening?
Albus Dumbledore:
Albus Dumbledore:
poof! Dumbledore fades away.
I’m afraid dear sirs and madams, we are more real than you.
While you are clever works of fiction we are the ‘poema’ work of God
Is is us who bid you adieu.
Jonathan Edwards:
In the book of Daniel, our guy bested the wizards of Babylon. Whether we
did the same will be left to the audience. Adieu.
Jonathan Edwards:
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