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16/12/2014 WWPD ­ View topic ­ German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8065 1/7

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German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

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German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

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chaos45Sergeant

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 20125:16 pmPosts: 377Location: Bloomington, IL

German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesPulled from http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/943GMXA.pdf

605th Panzerjäger BattalionMotorized Panzerjäger Battalion HQ1 Motorized Signals Platoon3 Self Propelled Panzerjäger Companies(8 Czech 50mm guns & 6 LMGs)1 Self Propelled Panzerjäger Company(8 Russian 50mm guns & 6 LMGs)

Got a hair to do more research on the German 5cm selfpropelled panzerjagers...as its not a unit really in FoW except as a support platoon for theSS.

As Im also reading the 3rd panzer divisional history and self­propelled 5cm panzerjagers are mentioned there as well. An this shows an entireBattalion of them operating in North Africa. Seems to be a more widely available unit than currently portrayed in FoW. Finding information isdifficult though as there isnt alot of english language information on specific Panzerjager formations.

Oh an these are different from the 4.7cm PzJgr I's.....as the source lists them seperately. It appears these 5cm are mostly a field or maybe depotlevel maintenace job and not factory but still interesting.

Fri May 17, 2013 4:38 pm

thefloppy1Corporal

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 20127:26 amPosts: 161Location: San Diego, CA

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehicleswhen I was doing my reseach for the Adepticon list I used, I also say this (The Nafziger file listed here). The good thing is that BF are fairlyprogressive, if you can put together some good research, and do an army list they will look at it for a PDF.

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Fri May 17, 2013 5:21 pm

WarHighlanderTechnical Sergeant

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 201111:24 pmPosts: 1131Location: Stockton, CA

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles605th Panzerjäger Battalion was equipped with Panzerjaeger I and Dianas. I don't know what Nafziger is smoking here. Probably misinterpretedsome field reports by soldiers that weren't totally familiar with the technical details; you sometimes see that in Eastern Front reports calling Russian45mm guns 4.7cm guns, etc.

Panzerabwehr­Abteilung 605Panzerjäger­Abteilung 605 (from 1 Apr 40)Panzerjäger­Abteilung 605 (Sfl.) (from 28 Oct 40)

26 Aug 39 mobilized in WK II16 Oct 39 re­equipped with 8.8cm Flak 18 guns10 May 40 three companies (@ 4 x 8.8cm Pak)28 Oct 40 re­equipped with 4.7cm SP guns and redesignated[Niehorster: 22 Jun 41 Africa Corps][Niehorster: 28 Jun 42 Deutsches Afrika Korps with three companies of Japgpanzer Is and one company equipped with nine self­propelled 76.2mmguns and two self­propelled 75mm guns]13 Feb 43 disbanded in Africa and redesignated as Stab/ and 2./Panzerjäger­Abteilung 190May 43 destroyed in AfricaFtF: Sep I 39, Army Group North/Fourth Army, 1x 1­10 mot AT II 605FoF: May I 40, Sixth Army, 1x 1­10 mot AT II 605WitD: Feb II 41, 1x 1­10 mot AT II 605

16/12/2014 WWPD ­ View topic ­ German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8065 2/7

http://panzerjaeger­info.fuehr­online.de/html/WH2.html

They did have a pair of unusual armored halftracks that mounted a unique 7.5cm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II

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16/12/2014 WWPD ­ View topic ­ German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

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Fri May 17, 2013 11:46 pm

Iron­TomCaptain

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 20119:45 pmPosts: 2636Location: Fortress Knox

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesHmmm...looking at all those assinged motorcycles makes me wonder if these guys should have some sort of "Seek & Destroy" rule.

What are those turretless tracks in the command sections?

Sat May 18, 2013 12:48 am

WarHighlanderTechnical Sergeant

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 201111:24 pmPosts: 1131Location: Stockton, CA

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesPanzer I ammo carriers.

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16/12/2014 WWPD ­ View topic ­ German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

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Sat May 18, 2013 12:58 am

chaos45Sergeant

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 20125:16 pmPosts: 377Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesawesome info thanks for putting it up.

An that makes sense.

An as to german tank huntes getting rules like US TDs well they should...its exactly how they were used, and in general much more effectively inblunting russian armored breakthroughs. Ive already put up a list for a german tank destroyer company and in all honesty the Germans should getthe list. BF laziness is the only reason it hasnt been done. By 1943 independent TD BNs supporting armies were pretty common on the easternfront.

Hell if you look at OOBs 5cm AT guns were super common in some panzer divisions on the eastern front from mid 42 on. Some divisions like 3 percompany in addition to the regimental/divisional AT assets and fighting in style more like the North Africa lists. Also many divisions besides thespanish combined their 7.5cm/15cm inf guns into batteries have seen several divisional OOBs that has them put in 4 or 6 gun batteries instead ofjust 2 as BF allows.

I guess what doesnt make sense either becuase the writers mix things up or whatnot is in some instances they say JpPz I/4.7cm and in otherinstances in books they only talk about self­propelled 5cm antitank.

Also one of the US intelligence briefings from WW2 has a remark about converted 5cm halftracks being used by german forces but that theyseemed to be converted and not normal production. Odd that for something only used on the Eastern front the US would have them in an intelupdate.

The more Ive looked into this it seems like at least on a small scale other german units took to the idea of mounting the 5cm on a mobile mountbesides the SS. There is even a picture out there for a soviet T­26 hull converted with a 5cm gun on it in german use.

I would also like to comment that perhaps the tungstun AP rounds for the 5cm should have a higher AT value in late­ EW and some if not allprofiles for MW. As the rounds were more readily available in the early period. An well since the allies are getting all the higher AT values based onlimited rounds maybe the germans should get some love lol. As those rounds in the short range should be AT 11+ by how BF has rated theweapons most tests give them over 110mm of pen and in some instances as high as 130mm, at least an upgrade to AT 10 would be nice and fairconsidered that those rounds were more readily avail in the earlier time periods.

Hell panthers in 45 would have 1­2 special rounds on board on the russian front in case they faced heavies. At least thats whats been stated insome books by crew members.

Sat May 18, 2013 5:10 am

Huey11Private

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 201311:26 amPosts: 29

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesHi Mr Chaos45...

Don't believe everything you read!Neither the Czechs nor the Russians produced 50mm guns!A 2 minute Google of 605 Panzerjager Battalion gives:3 Kompanies at 9 x Panzerjager 1 and1 Kompany at 9 x Diana (Quoted as 75mm but actually 7.62cm ex­Russian A/T guns)...so easily 8 at combat strength.

And as for German TD rules, don't you think Stormtrooper moves do that better?H

Sat May 18, 2013 9:12 am

WarHighlanderTechnical Sergeant

Joined: Sun Oct 02, 201111:24 pmPosts: 1131Location: Stockton, CA

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

chaos45 wrote:

The more Ive looked into this it seems like at least on a small scale other german units took to the idea of mounting the 5cm on a mobilemount besides the SS. There is even a picture out there for a soviet T­26 hull converted with a 5cm gun on it in german use.

I did a Google search and found a Sd Kfz 251/C that allegedly mounted a 5cm PaK38 in Tunisia:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deckarudo/6136470796/

There is also a Sd Kfz 250 Neu in a Serbian museum to mount a 5cm PaK38. Not sure if that was done by the Germans, partisans, or postwar.

16/12/2014 WWPD ­ View topic ­ German Self­proplled 5cm vehicles

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A number of model kits seem to show this configuration.

As for the T­26, I think you're referring to the few that were converted to mount 7.5cm PaK97/38s.

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Sat May 18, 2013 4:54 pm

SotahulluStaff Sergeant

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 20127:29 pmPosts: 514

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesWell, i don't remeber correctly but germans often referred 47mm as 5cm and 76.2mm as 7.5cm.

But yes, most german officially produced tank destroyers/hunters had 7.5cm gun but in field there was plenty of self­made conversions mountingfrom 37mm to 75mm. These of course are quite rare to find in official organisation as there was very few of these conversions. And it's extremelyhard to find combat records for these vehicles!

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Sat May 18, 2013 5:23 pm

chaos45Sergeant

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 20125:16 pmPosts: 377Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesTD rules/stormtrooperI would disagree to stormtrooper being better...US TD rules give you in effect a free additional ambush. Much more powerful as the enemy doenstknow the exact location of your tank destroyers until they deploy, and for the most part it can be really hard to even effect the TDs before theyambush. Not to mention if you defend in a mission with ambush you now have 2 ambushes....that is a massive advantage.

Have seen many lucky airstrikes/artillery hits destroy german marders before they can have a real effect. US TDs dont have to worry about thatbeing effectively invisible until they deploy and then they get full RoF.

Many times the Marders will need to be hidden outside LOS, then move into LOS to fire then hope they can stormtrooper away to avoid beingwiped out. Yes if the scenario gives you an ambush the marders are usually great in the role, but you might have that in what on average 25% ofmissions. Esp after the roll­offs for attacker/defender when 2 similar companies meet. An even then with how highly mobile forces in LW are youmight want any towed AT guns as the ambush so they stay relavent to the battle at all, and arent just avoided or destroyed in turn 2.

Just my 2cents on the subject.

Sat May 18, 2013 7:05 pm

chaos45Sergeant

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 20125:16 pmPosts: 377Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: German Self­proplled 5cm vehiclesback on the 5cm self­propelled, maybe when BF gets back to MW need to add the option to upgrade the 5cm AT units for a point cost or allowupgrading of a gun/vehicle in certain units to a 5cm AT gun.

an yes the T26 with the 75mm is the pic I was talking about, is more pictures of it or like models out there tho.

What got me on the topic was reading the Armored Bears books on the 3rd Panzer division. Is also interesting that they pretty much had severaladditional battalions permanently attached to the division for all intense and purpose for barbarossa. Extra Flak BN/extra self­propelled AT BN andextra artillery assets. Even had he grossdeutchland regiment attached for the final operation Typhoon attacks. Although by the time of the retreatthe authors point out that the division and the GD regiment esp were completely fought out, and had very little fighting power left.

Sat May 18, 2013 7:16 pm

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