8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
1/192
1 SUPERI OR COURT OF CALI FORNI A
2 COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
3 BEFORE THE HONORABLE J UDGE ROBERT MCGUI NESS
4 DEPARTMENT 22
5
6
7 J ANE DOE, ) No. HG115588324 )
8 Pl ai nt i f f , ) ) ASSI GNED FOR ALL PURPOSES TO
9 v. ) J UDGE ROBERT McGUI NESS, ) DEPARTMENT 22
10 WATCHTOWER BI BLE AND ) TRACT SOCI ETY OF NEW )11 YORK, I NC. , a )
cor por at i on, et al . , )12 )
Def endant s. )13 )
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ )14
15 J URY TRI AL
16 J UNE 5, 2012
17 DAY 5
18
19 ATKI NSON- BAKER, I NC.COURT REPORTERS
20 ( 800) 288- 3376www. depo. com
21
22 REPORTED BY: KATHRYN LLOYD, CSR NO. 5955
23
24 J OB NO: A604D27
25
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
2/192
2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 FOR THE PLAI NTI FF:
3 FURTADO, J ASPOVI CE & SI MONS
4 BY: RI CK SI MONS, ESQ.
5 BY: KELLY KRAETSCH, ESQ.
6 22274 Mai n St r eet
7 Haywar d, CA 94541
8 Tel : 510- 582- 1080
9 Fax: 510- 582- 8254
10 Emai l : Kel l yk@f j s l aw. com11 Emai l : Ri ck@f j s l aw. com
12
13 FOR THE DEFENDANTS:
14 THE NORTH FREMONT CONGREGATI ON OF
15 J EHOVAH' S WI TNESSES
16 THE McCABE LAW FI RM
17 BY: J AMES M. McCABE, ESQ.
18 4817 Sant a Moni ca Ave, Sui t e B
19 San Di ego, CA 92107
20 Tel : 619- 224- 2848
21 Fax: 619- 224- 0089
22 Emai l : J i m@mccabel aw. net
23
24
25 ( CONTI NUED)
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
3/192
3
1 APPEARANCES ( CONTI NUED)
2 FOR THE DEFENDANT:
3 THE WATCHTOWER BI BLE AND TRACT SOCI ETY
4 OF NEW YORK, I NC.
5 J ACKSON LEWI S, LLP
6 BY: ROBERT SCHNACK, ESQ.
7 801 K St r eet , Sui t e 2300
8 Sacr ament o, CA 95814
9 Tel : ( 916) 341- 0404
10 Fax: ( 916) 341- 014111 Emai l : Schnackr @j acksonl ewi s . com
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 - - oOo- -
22
23
24
25
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
4/192
4
1 I NDEX OF EXAMI NATI ONS:
2 PAGE
3 WI TNESSES FOR THE PLAI NTI FF :
4 WI TNESS: ELI ZABETH PONTON, M. D.
5 VOI R DI RE EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 21
6 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 29
7 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SCHNACK 48
8 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 51
9
10 WI TNESSES FOR DEFENDANT, NORTH FREMONT CONGREGATI ON11 OF J EHOVAH' S WI TNESSES:
12
13 WI TNESS: BERNI CE MUNOZ
14 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 54
15 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 63
16
17 WI TNESS: SYLVI A MUNOZ
18 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 64
19 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 75
20
21 WI TNESS: PAMELA FI GUERI DO
22 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 76
23 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 88
24
25 ( CONTI NUED)
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
5/192
5
1 I NDEX OF EXAMI NATI ONS: ( CONTI NUED)
2 PAGE
3 WI TNESS: MONI CA APPLEWHI TE, Ph. D. ( by vi deot ape)
4 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 94
5 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 128
6
7 WI TNESS: ALLEN SHUSTER
8 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 145
9 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. SI MONS 176
10 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON BY: MR. McCABE 18411
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24 - - oOo- -
25
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
6/192
6
1 I NDEX OF EXHI BI TS:
2 NUMBER ADMI TTED
3 Pl ai nt i f f ' s 60, Def endant ' s 29 163
4 Pl ai nt i f f ' s 29, Def endant ' s 44 171
5 Pl ai nt i f f ' s 12, Def endant ' s 50 172
6 Pl ai nt i f f ' s 65, Def endant ' s 49 174
7 ( EXHI BI TS NOT ATTACHED)
8
9
1011
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 - - oOo- -
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
7/192
7
1 J UNE 5, 2012 8: 02 A. M.
2 PROCEEDI NGS
3 ( Wher eupon t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs
4 wer e hear d out s i de t he pr esence of j ur or s)
5 THE COURT: On t he r ecor d, Candace Cont i
6 ver sus Wat cht ower Bi bl e and Tr ac t Soc i et y, I nc . , et al .
7 Counsel , what woul d you l i ke me t o addr ess
8 t hi s mor ni ng?
9 MR. SCHNACK: I see t hat Dr . Pont on i s i n t he
10 audi ence her e t oday. I want ed t o make sur e, gi ven t he11 deposi t i on t est i mony and some ot her t hi ngs t hat have
12 happened her e dur i ng t he t r i a l t hat she not ment i on
13 Kat hy Cont i ' s abuse by an e l der , t hat she not ment i on
14 t hat Kat hy Cont i - -
15 THE COURT: Why don' t you hol d because,
16 Doc t or , I want you t o l i s t en.
17 Doct or , why don' t you come on i n and si t i n
18 t he j ur y box .
19 Why don' t you come on up. Wel come. And l et
20 me get you set t l ed.
21 THE WI TNESS: Thank you.
22 MR. SCHNACK: And, agai n, t hat t her e be no
23 ment i on i n f r ont of a j ur y of Kat hy Cont i ' s abuse by an
24 el der . And, agai n, Kat hy Cont i i s Candace Cont i ' s
25 mot her . And Kat hy Cont i ' s par ent s wer e J ehovah' s
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
8/192
8
1 Wi t nesses.
2 THE WI TNESS: I ' m j ust goi ng t o wr i t e some of
3 t hese down. Sor r y, your Honor .
4 THE COURT: Let ' s do t hat . So l et ' s go t opi c
5 number one. And, Doct or , I made - - j ust f or your
6 i nf or mat i on, I made a s er i es of r ul i ngs ef f ec t i vel y
7 det ai l i ng and put t i ng s t andar ds and l i mi t s i n ev i dence
8 on bot h s i des . So I want you t o l i s t en ver y c l ear l y as
9 t o what i s of f l i mi t s r el at i ve t o your t es t i mony.
10 F i r s t of al l , Kat hy Cont i hav i ng been abused11 by an el der i n J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.
12 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
13 MR. SCHNACK: And second t hi ng i s t hat Kat hy
14 Cont i ' s par ent s wer e J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.
15 THE WI TNESS: Okay. The gr andpar ent s f or
16 Candace.
17 MR. SCHNACK: Cor r ect .
18 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
19 MR. SCHNACK: That Kat hy Cont i was r ai s ed as
20 one of J ehovah' s Wi t nesses.
21 The onl y t hi ng t hat can be r ef er enced wi t h
22 r espect t o Kat hy Cont i i s t hat she was sexual l y abused
23 as a chi l d, per i od. Not hi ng wi t hi n t he chur ch, not hi ng
24 r ef er enc i ng t he chur ch i n t hat r egar d.
25 THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
9/192
9
1 And i n f ai r ness , Doc t or , i n t er ms of cont ext ,
2 I have al l owed Ms. Cont i t o t es t i f y about hav i ng been
3 sexual l y abused.
4 THE WI TNESS: Uh- huh.
5 Was she unabl e t o ment i oned t hat i t was a
6 J ehovah' s Wi t nes s?
7 THE COURT: Ri ght . Absol ut el y . That ' s par t
8 of my or der s.
9 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
10 THE COURT: But we don' t want any ass oci at i on11 s t uf f r el at i ve t o t hat abus e i n t he c hur c h.
12 THE WI TNESS: Thank you.
13 MR. SCHNACK: The next t opi c deal s wi t h
14 del ayed r epor t i ng or del ayed di sc l osur e or as what mi ght
15 be cal l ed Chi l d Sexual Abus e Acc ommodat i on Syndr ome.
16 One i s t hat , al t hough t he syndr ome can be ment i oned, t he
17 cr edi bi l i t y of t he per son mak i ng t he del ayed r epor t
18 cannot be ment i oned.
19 THE WI TNESS: Thi s wi l l be a l i t t l e mor e
20 c onf us i ng, I t hi nk , f or me.
21 So I can ment i on t he s yndr ome - -
22 MR. SCHNACK: Sur e.
23 THE WI TNESS: - - t he Chi l dhood Acc ommodat i on
24 Syndr ome. But t he c r edi bi l i t y, I don' t qui t e under s t and
25 what you ar e sayi ng.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
10/192
10
1 MR. SCHNACK: You t est i f i ed t hat del ayed
2 r epor t s shoul d not be di scount ed, t hat t hey shoul d not
3 be vi ewed as not bei ng cr edi bl e j ust because t hey wer e
4 del ayed. And t hat you cannot do t hat her e t oday.
5 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
6 MR. SCHNACK: Do you under s t and t he r ul i ng?
7 THE COURT: Wel l , l et ' s t al k about t hat one,
8 Doc t or , j us t f or a mi nut e.
9 So l et ' s go - - you s ee, I haven' t s een t hi s
10 depos i t i on t est i mony.11 So you say t he Doct or t est i f i ed how? As t o
12 what ?
13 MR. SCHNACK: She t est i f i ed t hat del ayed
14 r epor t s o r del ayed di sc l osur e shoul d not be di scount ed
15 and not be bel i eved si mpl y because t hey wer e del ayed.
16 And, i ndeed, she went f ur t her t o say t hat ,
17 s t at i s t i cal l y, f al s e r epor t s cons t i t ut e, I mean, 2 t o
18 8 per cent of al l r epor t s , somet hi ng al ong t hat l i ne.
19 THE WI TNESS: Al l r i ght .
20 MR. SCHNACK: And t hat get s i nt o t he
21 c r e di bi l i t y of r epor t s . We di s c us s ed t hi s wi t h r es pec t
22 t o Car l L ewi s , Mr . Si mons t r i ed t o get hi m t o br i ng i t
23 i n. We had a coupl e s i de bar s.
24 THE COURT: Your Honor , I f ul l y under st and
25 and I know t he hi st or y.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
11/192
11
1 MR. SI MONS: I woul d di sagr ee wi t h t he
2 depi c t i on of Mr . Si mons t r y i ng t o get t hat i n.
3 THE COURT: Oh, don' t wor r y about t hat . I
4 t hi nk t hat i s j us t l awyer s bei ng l awyer s . But t he f al s e
5 r epor t i ng aspect s , I don' t t hi nk ar e ger mane t o what we
6 ar e doi ng her e. So t he t est i mony as t o what i s f al se
7 r epor t s and t he c r edi bi l i t y, t he i nf er r ed c r edi bi l i t y we
8 shoul dn' t be t al k i ng about . But t he del ay and t he
9 r easons why and what not , of cour se.
10 MR. SI MONS: Your Honor , i f I may, sor t of ,11 r es t at e t hat f or t he Doc t or .
12 What we ar e t r y i ng t o st ay away f r om i s any
13 t est i mony wher e we say, I f ound her bel i evabl e, or I
14 bel i eved her , or her t es t i mony i s cons i s t ent wi t h what
15 ot her vi ct i ms may show connect i ng Candace Cont i and t he
16 i s s ue of her c r edi bi l i t y di r ec t l y wi t h t he var i ous
17 st at i s t i cal and r esear ch i nf or mat i on t hat we have on
18 del ayed di sc l osur e.
19 THE COURT: And, Doct or , I don' t know how
20 many t i mes you have been an exper t wi t ness , but t he j ur y
21 has i t s f unct i on, you have your s wi t h t he exper t i se you
22 br i ng t o i t . And you ar e not t he j udge of t he
23 c r edi bi l i t y as pect s .
24 You know, you ar e s i t t i ng her e t o educat e t he
25 j ur y as t o t he nat ur e of t he syndr ome and t he
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
12/192
12
1 c i r cumst ances wi t hout pi npoi nt i ng i t as t o t he
2 c r edi bi l i t y of a par t i c ul ar per s on.
3 THE WI TNESS: So i f I wer e t o say del ayed
4 di scl osur e i s ver y common i n chi l dhood sexual abuse
5 v i c t i ms , woul d t hat be - -
6 THE COURT: I t hi nk t hat ' s f i ne.
7 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
8 MR. SCHNACK: Your Honor , I do di sc our age
9 what Mr . Si mons ' sai d onl y t o t he ext ent t hat i t i s not
10 nar r owed t o what he sai d. Yes, you cannot t i e Candace11 Cont i ' s r epor t s . I bel i eve her t hat s he i s c r edi bl e
12 because of t he del ayed r epor t . But t hat i ndeed del ayed
13 r epor t s ar e c r e di bl e.
14 I t i s a gener al s t at ement as wel l t hat i t ' s
15 excl uded, not t hat i t ' s del ayed r epor t i ng i s common. I
16 don' t di sagr ee wi t h. But t he f act t hat t hey ar e common
17 and t hey shoul d not be di sbel i eved goes a st ep f ur t her .
18 THE COURT: I don' t di sagr ee wi t h t hat .
19 MR. SI MONS: And nei t her do I .
20 THE COURT: No.
21 MR. SCHNACK: So t he next t opi c I have i s t he
22 whol e i s sue of chur ch di sc i pl i ne. Your Honor , t he i s sue
23 of di s f el l owshi ppi ng t hat came up, what you cal l " t he
24 wal k i ng dead" i n your r epor t .
25 Any t hi ng r el at ed t o chur ch di sc i pl i ne, ot her
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
13/192
13
1 t han J onat han Kendr i ck havi ng been r emoved as a
2 mi ni st er i a l ser vant i n t he November 11, 1993 r epor t ,
3 shoul d not be r ef er enced what soever .
4 THE WI TNESS: So r un t hi s by me agai n.
5 Mr . Kendr i ck' s was r emoved i s my
6 under st andi ng. I can say t hat , yes?
7 MR. SCHNACK: Yes .
8 THE WI TNESS: Bel i eve me, di s f e l l owshi p - - I
9 am not an exper t on t he f ai t h, s o I wi l l s t ay away f r om
10 t hat t opi c .11 MR. SCHNACK: I t doesn' t mat t er whet her you
12 ar e an exper t on i t , but t hat you shoul dn' t r ef er ence
13 t hat at al l .
14 THE COURT: Doct or , I want you t o know t hat I
15 r ul ed t hat ef f ec t i vel y di s f el l ows hi ppi ng i s a pr ot ec t e d
16 act i vi t y. You acknowl edged t o me t hat you ar e not an
17 exper t on t he pr ocess or t he nat ur e of t hat . St ay away
18 f r om t al k i ng about what happened t o Mr . Kendr i ck.
19 By t he chur ch, I have al l owed evi dence i nt o
20 t he f act t hat he had been r emoved as a mi ni st er i al
21 s er vant , but I don' t want any edi t or i al i z i ng on t hat
22 ei t her ot her t han acknowl edgment of t he f act .
23 MR. SCHNACK: And al ong wi t h t hat , no ot her
24 f or m of c hur ch di s ci pl i ne. I f t hey di dn' t di s f el l ows hi p
25 hi m, t hey shoul d have done somet hi ng el se. Not hi ng
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
14/192
14
1 al ong t hat l i ne.
2 THE COURT: That ' s not your pr obl ems, Doct or ,
3 and nor i s i t har dl y ev i dence.
4 MR. SCHNACK: The next cat egor y I have, t her e
5 wer e sever al r ef er ences bot h i n your r epor t and wi t hi n
6 your t est i mony about chi l d abuse wi t hi n t he J ehovah' s
7 Wi t nesses chur ch or gani zat i on or wor ds t o t hose ef f ec t ,
8 t hat we ask be st r i cken as wel l and not r ef er enced
9 what soever her e.
10 MR. SI MONS: I agr ee.11 THE COURT: Now, Doct or , any quest i ons as t o
12 t h a t ?
13 Agai n, we ar e f ocus i ng on t hi s par t i cul ar
14 mat t er , not ot her goi ngs- on and what not .
15 THE WI TNESS: I wi l l do my best . But j ust ,
16 i f I am over s t eppi ng, pl eas e i nt er r upt me.
17 THE COURT: Oh, I can ass ur e you counsel
18 wi l l .
19 I am havi ng t hi s l i t t l e s es s i on t o avoi d - -
20 and i f you have any quest i ons - - because what I ' m goi ng
21 t o do i s I ' m goi ng t o di r ec t you t o obey t he r ul es I ' ve
22 al r eady made cont ext ual l y so t hat we don' t have i ss ues
23 wi t h t he j ur y.
24 And i f you have any quest i ons , t he poi nt i s
25 t o ask t hem now so we can make sur e we have a cl ean
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
15/192
15
1 pr esent at i on.
2 MR. SCHNACK: And t hat ' s my concer n t oo wi t h
3 t he l as t comment , J udge, i s i f she f or ces us t o set up
4 and have anot her si de bar t hat we have t o do r epeat edl y,
5 t hat c r eat es t he pr obl em we ar e t r y i ng t o avoi d. So I
6 don' t appr ec i at e t hat you shoul d t r y. I t hi nk you
7 shoul d j us t do i t . That ' s my sugges t i on.
8 THE COURT: Wel l , gosh, I wi sh l i f e wer e
9 t hat - -
10 MR. SCHNACK: I do t oo, j udge, but we have11 had t o do a number of s i de bar s i n t hi s t r i al .
12 THE COURT: But I ' m a j udge t hat obser ves t he
13 j ur or s ' r eac t i ons and what not , and t hey under s t and i t ,
14 and I have t ol d t hem s pec i f i c al l y. So, c ouns el ,
15 under s t and t hi s , t hat I have a l ot of - - her e and I
16 t hi nk t hey get i t . I t hi nk t hey under s t and t he nat ur e
17 of t he pr ocess her e. And I t hi nk t hey ar e al l ver y much
18 on boar d under st andi ng what i s goi ng on and why.
19 But , Doc t or , I need - - we ar e goi ng t opi c t o
20 t opi c now t o ass i s t you i n t he or gani zat i on and
21 under s t andi ng so we can avoi d any pr obl ems .
22 I mean, we have al l been her e over t wo weeks
23 t o pr esent t hi s case and I have comment ed, whi ch i s r ar e
24 f or me, t hat counsel have gone t he ext r a number of
25 yar ds , i f not mi l es , t o make sur e t hat t he j ur y get s a
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
16/192
16
1 c l ean pr esent at i on of each s i de of t hei r case. So I
2 need your at t ent i on and back i ng on t hat , at l east .
3 THE WI TNESS: Wel l , I wi l l make ever y at t empt
4 t o f ol l ow t hi s . I was j us t t hi nk i ng t hat t her e mi ght be
5 somet hi ng t hat I had not t hought about or known about .
6 That ' s al l . I ' m r eal l y i nt ent on f ol l owi ng t he r ul es .
7 THE COURT: I know. And i f you have any
8 quest i ons bef or e you answer , I wi l l al l ow a br eak j us t
9 so t her e i s no mi sunder st andi ng.
10 MR. SCHNACK: Ther e was al so r ef er ence i n t he11 r epor t t hat J onat han Kendr i ck was an e l der or t hat
12 Candace was abus ed by an el der wi t hi n t he chur ch.
13 Ther e has al r eady been an i nst r uct i on t hat he
14 was not i n t hat pos i t i on ever . So t hat shoul d be
15 exci sed f r om your t est i mony compl et el y .
16 THE COURT: And f or what ever r eason, and I ' m
17 not sur e what t he r eason i s, t her e was some
18 mi sunder st andi ng, i n at l east a coupl e ar eas o f ev i dence
19 her e, t hat Mr . Kendr i ck was an el der . He never was.
20 And I don' t know - - i t i s l i ke a vi r us . You get t hat i n
21 one r epor t and t hen you f i nd i t i n t hr ee r epor t s . But I
22 woul d want you t o know t hi s, as a mat t er of f act , he was
23 not an e l der .
24 THE WI TNESS: He ser ved i n t he capaci t y as a
25 mi ni s t er i al as s i s t ant .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
17/192
17
1 THE COURT: " Ser vant " i s , I t hi nk, what you
2 cal l i t .
3 MR. SCHNACK: Yeah. You di dn' t get t he name
4 r i ght . But i t i s " mi ni s t er i al s er v ant . "
5 THE WI TNESS: A mi ni st er i al ser vant . Okay.
6 Am I al l owed t o say t hat ?
7 THE COURT: Yes .
8 THE WI TNESS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: And act ual l y, i t has been a
10 wonder f ul educat i on f or t hi s Cour t i n t er ms of t he11 s t r uct ur e. But mi ni s t e r i al s er vant , I bel i eve, i s t he
12 t i t l e.
13 MR. SCHNACK: And t he l ast t hi ng I have i s,
14 agai n, because Paul I nman was r ef er enced yest er day when
15 she shoul dn' t have been dur i ng Car o l yn Mar t i nez ' s
16 t est i mony. We don' t want any r ef er ences t o Paul I nman.
17 The name I nman s houl d not be br ought up. And I di dn' t
18 see i t i n your t es t i mony, so t hat ' s pr obabl y not an
19 i s s ue.
20 THE COURT: I t hi nk we ar e gi vi ng I nman maybe
21 a l i t t l e mor e due t han he' s wor t h.
22 But , agai n, I don' t know what t hi s pr of ess i on
23 di d i n t er ms of I nman.
24 How i s I nman i n your r epor t ?
25 MR. SCHNACK: Di d you r evi ew any deposi t i ons
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
18/192
18
1 of Paul I nman?
2 THE WI TNESS: Not t o my knowl edge.
3 MR. SCHNACK: Okay. So j ust don' t use t he
4 wor d " I nman" dur i ng your t est i mony, I t hi nk we wi l l be
5 f i ne.
6 THE COURT: I t sounds l i ke t hat i s al most a
7 gi ven.
8 MR. SI MONS: And I woul d, your Honor ,
9 di sagr ee wi t h t he Sov i et s t y l e of r emoval of Paul I nman
10 f r om hi s t or y . The f ac t t hat Car ol yn Mar t i nez was11 mar r i ed t o hi m was c er t ai nl y not , I t hi nk, i nt r us i ve i n
12 any way of t he Cour t ' s r ul i ngs .
13 THE COURT: Yeah, I di dn' t r egar d i t as a
14 make way pi eces of c i r cumst ance. I can have a l i t t l e
15 sket ch up her e t o t r y t o keep ever ybody, t he f ami l y t r ee
16 her e i n or der .
17 MR. SCHNACK: Wel l , we di sagr ee wi t h t he
18 scope of t he r ul i ng t hen.
19 But , nonet hel ess , f or our pur poses her e
20 t oday, t he wor d " I nman" shoul dn' t c r oss your l i ps ,
21 Doct or .
22 That ' s al l I have, Your Honor .
23 THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
24 And i f you want t o c hat wi t h Pl ai nt i f f ' s
25 c ouns el , agai n, I wi l l c er t ai nl y gi ve you an
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
19/192
19
1 oppor t uni t y .
2 Al l r i ght . I ' m gl ad we had t hi s s es s i on.
3 You can r evi ew your not es and r el ax . We s t ar t at 8: 30
4 and I wi l l swear you i n at t hat poi nt i n t i me.
5 And, agai n, I wi l l advi s e you t o s t ay wi t hi n
6 t he l i nes of t he r ul i ngs I have made. And I have done
7 t hi s spec i f i cal l y because of wher e we ar e i n t he t r i al
8 and ever ybody' s good f a i t h ef f or t t o compl y.
9 Al l r i ght . Anyt hi ng el s e?
10 I saw your spec i al ver di c t . I haven' t had a11 c hanc e r eal l y t o c ons i der i t .
12 MR. SI MONS: That ' s f i ne, Your Honor .
13 Wer e you abl e t o open i t ?
14 THE COURT: I can open i t and - - i t coul d
15 onl y happen i n t hi s t r i al . For some r eason, when I get
16 emai l s f r om you, t hey won' t p r i nt . Somet i mes t hey wi l l
17 pr i nt f r om you; somet i mes t hey won' t .
18 I have had my I T guy i n her e once. He' s
19 goi ng t o be back i n her e.
20 But I have been abl e t o open i t and r ead i t .
21 I ' m j us t not abl e t o pr i nt of f of i t . I ' m havi ng my
22 c l er k pr i nt of f of her s .
23 MR. SI MONS: I t hi nk I have a har d copy her e
24 wi t h me t oday s omewher e.
25 THE COURT: Wel l , you sai d you wer e goi ng t o
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
20/192
20
1 br i ng i t s o - -
2 MR. SI MONS: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: - - you know, wi t h pl ai nt i f f s '
4 l awyer s t her e' s al ways hope. So I was hopef ul you' d
5 show up wi t h i t .
6 MR. SI MONS: Yes. And I ' m wonder i ng - - I
7 di dn' t not i ce i t i n t he t op of my not es wher e i t usual l y
8 woul d be, and I ' m wonder i ng i f I wal ked out of t he door
9 wi t hout i t .
10 THE COURT: Wel l - -11 MR. SI MONS: But i n whi ch case I deci ded t o
12 br i ng i t - -
13 THE COURT: - - I am cer t ai nl y not goi ng t o
14 hol d you t o - -
15 ( Di scuss i on of f t he r ecor d)
16 MR. McCABE: You know, one t hi ng I not i ced i s
17 t hat , Your Honor , t hat i t l umps t he t wo def endant s
18 t oget her and I obj ec t t o t hat .
19 MR. SCHNACK: Ther e ar e ot her i ss ues.
20 ( Di scuss i on of f t he r ecor d)
21 ( Wher eupon t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs
22 wer e hear d i n t he pr esence of j ur or s)
23 THE COURT: Good mor ni ng, Ladi es and
24 Gent l emen of t he j ur y.
25 Mr . Si mons?
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
21/192
21
1 MR. SI MONS: Yes, your Honor .
2 The Pl ai nt i f f woul d cal l Dr . L ynn Pont on.
3
4 LYNN PONTON, M. D.
5 WAS DULY SWORN TO TEL L THE TRUTH BY THE CLERK
6 AND TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS:
7
8 THE CLERK: Woul d you pl ease s t at e your name
9 and spel l your f i r s t and l as t name f or t he recor d.
10 THE WI TNESS: Cer t ai nl y.11 L ynn, L - Y- N- N, El i s abet h, E- L - I - S- A- B- E- T- H,
12 Pont on, P- O- N- T- O- N, M. D.
13
14 VOI R DI RE EXAMI NATI ON
15 BY MR. SI MONS:
16 Q. Dr . Pont on, what i s your occupat i on?
17 A. I am a c hi l d and adol es c ent ps yc hi at r i s t and
18 a pr of essor of chi l d and adol escent psychi at r y at t he
19 Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a i n San F ranc i sco at UCSF .
20 Q. And coul d you t e l l us , pl ease, about your
21 f or mal educat i on.
22 A. Yes , I wi l l . Hopef ul l y, I wi l l r emember i t .
23 I am f r om a Fr ench Canadi an backgr ound f r om
24 Nor t her n Wi sconsi n. Went t o t he Uni ver s i t y of Wi sconsi n
25 i n Madi son, and st udi ed Engl i sh and bi ochemi st r y. Then
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
22/192
22
1 f ol l owed t hat up and went t o t he Uni ver s i t y of Wi scons i n
2 Medi cal School .
3 Af t er t hat , I compl et ed medi cal school i n
4 1978 and t hen t r ai ned i n pedi at r i cs i n New Yor k Ci t y at
5 Bel l evue and St . Vi ncent ' s Hospi t al .
6 And t hen f ol l owi ng t hat , I went t o t he
7 Uni ver s i t y of Pennsy l vani a i n Phi l adel phi a and t r ai ned
8 i n adul t ps yc hi at r y.
9 Then I came her e t o t he Uni ver si t y of
10 Cal i f or ni a i n San Fr anc i s co. I t r ai ned i n c hi l dhood11 adol es c ent ps yc hi at r y, f el l ows hi p, f or t hr ee year s .
12 And t hen I s t ayed on as f acul t y . And I have
13 been at t he Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a i n San F ranc i sco
14 si nce 1980 t eachi ng and wor ki ng.
15 I n addi t i on, I have ps yc hoanal yt i c t r ai ni ng
16 and I ' m a t r ai ned psychoanal yst at t he San F r anc i sco
17 Ps yc hoanal yt i c Cl i ni c .
18 So I do a l ot of t eachi ng, pr obabl y t he mai n
19 doct or t her e who t eaches i n t he ar ea of adol escent
20 psychi at r y . And I wor k wi t h al l t he k i ds wi t h cancer
21 and psychol ogi cal pr obl ems at Mof f et t Long. So i t i s a
22 gr eat j ob, and I get t o wor k wi t h some gr eat peopl e.
23 Q. Can you t el l us i f you ar e boar d cer t i f i ed?
24 A. Yes, Mr . Si mons.
25 I am boar d c er t i f i ed i n adul t ps yc hi at r y and
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
23/192
23
1 i n chi l d and adol escent psychi at r y . Bot h wer e obt ai ned
2 i n 1985.
3 And t hen f ol l owi ng t hat , I wor ked f or bot h
4 t he boar ds, and I have been a boar d exami ner f r om 1985
5 t o t he pr esent t i me.
6 I n my ar ea of exper t i se , chi l d and a
7 adol escent s, I ser ved on t he boar d commi t t ee and wr ot e
8 t he psychi at r y boar ds , bot h adul t and chi l d and
9 adol escent s , f or t en year s .
10 So I ' m ver y i nvol ved i n r eal l y hel pi ng young11 psychi at r i s t s l ear n about t he f i el d and hopef ul l y pass
12 t hei r t est s and go out and wor k wi t h peopl e.
13 Q. Now, what does i t mean t o be " boar d
14 cer t i f i ed" ?
15 A. A coupl e di f f er ent t hi ngs , Mr . Si mons .
16 I t i s a l engt hy pr ocess because you have t o
17 f i r s t pass t he Amer i can Medi cal Boar ds , t hr ee par t s , and
18 get your bas i c l i censur e.
19 Then, wi t hi n your subspec i al t i es , your
20 spec i a l t y ar eas, you have t o t ake bot h an or al and a
21 wr i t t en exam.
22 Unf or t unat el y, f or t he young doc t or s , i t
23 cost s a l ot of money and t i me, and we ar e t r yi ng t o l ook
24 at how t o make i t as expedi ent as possi bl e so we can
25 r eal l y educat e mor e doct or s .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
24/192
24
1 Q. And, Doct or , af t er havi ng t aken t he exam
2 your sel f , now you wor k on cr eat i ng t he exami nat i ons f or
3 t hese f ut ur e spec i al i s t s i n adul t and chi l d psychol ogy?
4 A. That ' s cor r ect . I do. I l ove wr i t i ng. You
5 k now, I s ound l i ke I ' m a ner d. But wr i t i ng i s my
6 s t r onges t s ki l l pr obabl y bec aus e I s t udi ed Engl i s h i n
7 addi t i on t o chemi st r y . And t hat ' s pr obabl y why I have
8 been abl e t o be adept i n cer t ai n ar eas.
9 Q. Tel l us a l i t t l e bi t about t he wr i t i ng t hat
10 you have done dur i ng your car eer .11 A. I have wr i t t en - - t o be a f ul l pr of es s or at
12 t he Uni ver s i t y of Cal i f or ni a. That , I have t o s ay, was
13 not easy f or a woman. I n 1989, I sued t he Uni ver s i t y of
14 Cal i f or ni a, Cl ass Ac t i on f or t he Women' s Facul t y . And I
15 won equal pay and equal advancement f or Women' s Facul t y
16 i n a c l as s s ui t .
17 I obt ai ned t enur e bef or e t hat t i me and t hen
18 had some st r uggl es wi t h t hem, as mi ght be expect ed.
19 So I am ver y ac t i ve at t he uni ver s i t y t r yi ng
20 t o wel come young f acul t y, and r eal l y f acul t y f r om al l
21 backgr ounds and hel p t hem t o become t eacher s and
22 c l i ni c i ans t her e.
23 I have wr i t t en pr obabl y about - - you know, I
24 woul d have t o l ook at t he CV because t hey change ever y
25 coupl e of t i mes , and see how i t i s l i s t ed her e - - but
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
25/192
25
1 s omewher e bet ween 125 and 150 ar t i cl es.
2 I have wr i t t en The Text book of Adol escent
3 Ps yc hi at r y. I ' m one of t he f i ve aut hor s on t hat . The
4 Handbook of Adol escent Ri sk Taki ng.
5 I have wr i t t en ot her t hi ngs . I have wr i t t en
6 some popul ar books about r i sk- t ak i ng behavi or s ,
7 sexual i t y , sexual abuse, t hat ar e wel l known, and I have
8 al s o wr i t t en f i c t i on.
9 Q. Ar e you l i censed as a doc t or i n Cal i f or ni a?
10 A. Yes, I am. I have been si nce I moved her e i n11 1980.
12 Q. And have you had speci al i zed exper i ence and
13 t r ai ni ng i n t he f i el d of chi l dhood and adol escent sexual
14 abuse?
15 A. Yes.
16 I had t he good f or t une t o have t r ai ned i n
17 pedi at r i cs i n New Yor k Ci t y when t he f i r st mandat or y
18 r epor t i ng was comi ng about . And I r emember t he f i r st
19 case t hat I had t o r epor t as an i nt er n at Bel l evue. And
20 t hr ee daught er s wer e abused by t hei r f at her . And t hey
21 sai d - - I r emember my at t endi ng sayi ng, " We have a new
22 r ul e t hat you ar e goi ng t o have t o repor t t hese cases . "
23 And i t t ook me a l l day t o wr i t e t hem up and
24 r epor t t hem. And t hat , I have t o t el l you, has
25 cont i nued over t hese 35 year s . Ther e i s a l ot of
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
26/192
26
1 r epor t i ng.
2 At UC, we r epor t about one case a week i n
3 Mof f et t Long of sexual abuse. So I have t r ai ned t he
4 younger doct or s i n how t o do t hat . I wor k wi t h t he
5 soci al wor k t eam. And I wor k ac t ual l y wi t h t he s t at e
6 agency s ome t oo.
7 Q. Now, i n your t eachi ng assi gnment , who ar e t he
8 st udent s t hat you ar e t eachi ng?
9 A. I t each young and chi l d adol escent
10 psychi at r i s t s , and t hen al so t he pedi at r i c i ans because11 t hey have t o be al er t ed about sexual abuse r epor t i ng.
12 The nur s i ng s t af f at UC, so, ps ychol ogi s t s who ar e
13 t r ai ni ng t her e and soc i al wor ker s .
14 I t i s r eal l y a wonder f ul env i r onment t o wor k
15 i n, a col l abor at i ve envi r onment of about 45 t o 50 peopl e
16 wor k i ng as a t eam t o hel p t he k i ds .
17 Q. Now, do you act ual l y see pat i ent s? You cal l
18 i t , I gues s, c l i ni cal pr act i ce.
19 I s t hat t he r i ght t er m?
20 A. I s ee pat i ent s i n t wo c ont ext s . I n t he
21 mor ni ng - - not t oday because I ' m her e - - but we have
22 wal k- ar ounds, and we wi l l see t he cases t hat ar e i n t he
23 hospi t al at UC. And I ' m t he mai n at t endi ng. And t her e
24 i s a gr oup of ot her at t endi ngs of younger doct or s . We
25 wal k ar ound wi t h t he ki ds wi t h cancer .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
27/192
27
1 One of t he boys i s dyi ng t oday who has
2 cancer . And t he t eam i s meet i ng wi t h hi m and wi t h hi s
3 f at her t o r eal l y hel p t hem ac cept t he s i t uat i on. He i s
4 ver y t r aumat i zed by i t and i s i n t he i nt ens i ve car e
5 uni t . And I wor k wi t h al l of t hose i npat i ent cases .
6 And I ' m i nvol ved i n bot h t he psychol ogi cal and some of
7 t he medi cal ar eas r el at ed t o i t .
8 I ' m qui t e knowl edgeabl e about pai n cont r ol as
9 connec t ed wi t h psychol ogi cal aspec t s o f i l l ness .
10 Then i n t he af t er noon, I see t he pat i ent s i n11 t he out pat i ent set t i ng. Usual l y about 25 t o 30 per
12 week.
13 I ' m known par t i cul ar l y f or wor k i ng wi t h young
14 peopl e, l i ke Candace Cont i , so t he age gr oup of young
15 peopl e, bot h boys and young men who have been abus ed
16 t oo.
17 Sadl y, many young men have been abused al so,
18 and i t i s not as wel l - known. You know, somet i mes t he
19 Cat hol i c pr i est abuse cases have made i t mor e f ami l i ar
20 t o peopl e, and some of t he cases wi t h coaches. And I
21 wor k wi t h t hose cases t oo.
22 And i n t he af t er noon, I see a l ot of pat i ent s
23 and I enj oy t hat . And hopef ul l y I ' m done by 7: 00 t o
24 have di nner wi t h my husband, or i f any of my ki ds ar e i n
25 t own, you know, I have di nner wi t h t hem. I t r y t o get
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
28/192
28
1 t hem t o have di nner wi t h me.
2 Q. Have you exper i enced, out si de of t he
3 Uni ver s i t y set t i ng, wi t h chi l dhood t r auma, and i n
4 par t i cul ar wi t h addr ess i ng pr ogr ams f or chi l dhood
5 t r auma?
6 A. Oh, yes . I ' m ver y ac t i ve wor ki ng wi t h t he
7 Amer i can Psychi at r i c Assoc i at i on and wi t h t he Amer i can
8 Academy of Chi l d and Adol escent Psychi at r y.
9 I was t he f oundi ng chai r i n t he ' 80s of t he
10 Di s ast er and Tr auma Commi t t ee f or t he Amer i can Academy.11 You pr obabl y appr eci at e t hi s because I got
12 t he i dea af t er t he Loma Pr i et a ear t hquake, when I
13 wat ched my own chi l dr en r eact t o t he ear t hquake and have
14 a l ot of t r aumat i c s ympt oms.
15 And t hen we or gani zed t own meet i ngs f or
16 Oakl and and San Fr anci sco and f or Mar i n f or par ent s
17 about how t o hel p your chi l dr en wi t hi n a f ew days af t er
18 t he ear t hquake. I a l so wor ked wi t h t he Oakl and F i r e.
19 And I ' m c ur r ent l y ver y i nvol ved i n t he San Br uno f i r e
20 cases.
21 So my exper t i se i s r eal l y deal i ng wi t h
22 post - t r aumat i c s t r ess d i sor der and di sast er and t r auma.
23 I t hi nk what I am most wel l - known f or i n t hat ar ea i s
24 t hat I went on nat i onal t el evi s i on and t hen went t o New
25 Yor k Ci t y af t er 2011 - - or Sept ember 11t h, and went on
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
29/192
29
1 af t er Pr es i dent Bush t o t al k about hel pi ng t he nat i on' s
2 c hi l dr en wi t h pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der .
3 So I know a l ot about t hat ar ea and
4 espec i al l y how t o hel p chi l dr en, adol escent s and adul t s
5 r educe t hei r t r auma l oad r eal l y t hr ough a l i f et i me of
6 bei ng i n a t r aumat i c event .
7 MR. SI MONS: Your Honor , I woul d of f er Dr .
8 Pont on as an exper t i n t he f i el d of psychi at r y and chi l d
9 and adol escent psychi at r y.
10 THE COURT: Any quest i ons f or Dr . Pont on?11 MR. McCABE: No, your Honor .
12 MR. SCHNACK: No.
13 THE COURT: I woul d f i nd her qual i f i ed as an
14 exper t f or t he t wo r easons s ought .
15 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON
16 BY MR. SI MONS:
17 Q. Now, Dr . Pont on, di d I ask you t o eval uat e
18 Candace Cont i ?
19 A. You di d, Mr . Si mons.
20 Q. And di d you meet wi t h her ?
21 A. I di d. I met wi t h her sever al t i mes .
22 Q. And i n addi t i on t o meet i ng wi t h her , di d you
23 r evi ew some ot her mat er i al s?
24 A. I di d.
25 I want t o f ol l ow al l t he gui del i nes her e, but
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
30/192
30
1 I r evi ewed a number of deposi t i ons and medi cal r ecor ds
2 and many document s, r ea l l y l ooki ng at t hem r el at ed t o
3 t hi s c as e.
4 Q. Di d you r evi ew Candace' s medi cal r ecor ds,
5 i nc l udi ng t he medi cal r ecor ds f r om her chi l dhood and
6 adol escent year s?
7 A. I di d.
8 Q. And di d you r evi ew t he deposi t i ons of var i ous
9 heal t h car e pr ovi der s who have t r eat ed Candace over
10 t i me?11 A. I di d, Mr . Si mons .
12 Q. When was t he f i r st i nt er v i ew t hat you had
13 wi t h Candace Cont i ?
14 A. Let me l ook at t hi s and make sur e of t hi s .
15 I t hi nk t he dat e was i ncor r ect on my
16 eval uat i on, but I saw her i n t he f al l of 2011. And I
17 bel i eve t he f i r st dat e was Sept ember 20t h, 2011.
18 Q. And when was t he l ast dat e t hat you s aw her ?
19 A. I don' t have i t . I woul d have t o check my
20 bi l l i ng r ec or ds , but I woul d s ay wi t hi n t he l as t t wo
21 mont hs I met wi t h her .
22 Q. Di d you devel op an opi ni on as t o whet her or
23 not t he chi l dhood sexual abuse Candace Cont i exper i enced
24 was a cause of har m t o her ?
25 A. Yes, I have, Mr . Si mons.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
31/192
31
1 Q. And what i s your opi ni on i n t hat r egar d?
2 A. I bel i eve t hat t he chi l dhood sexual abuse
3 such as Candace Cont i endur ed f or a l engt hy per i od of
4 t i me s i gni f i cant l y har med her .
5 Q. And you ment i oned ear l i er post - t r aumat i c
6 s t r ess d i sor der , PTSD.
7 What i s pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der ?
8 A. Post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der came out
9 af t er , ac t ual l y, t he war t hat t he wor l d has par t i c i pat ed
10 i n.11 We pr obabl y saw t he f i r st cases of t he Shel l
12 Shock Syndr ome, you know, af t er Wor l d War I and Wor l d
13 War I I . Even t he Spani sh Amer i can War had ear l y
14 r epor t i ngs of i t . You can see t hr oughout t i me - - or
15 human t i me - - s t or i es r ef er r i ng t o i t .
16 But begi nni ng i n t he ' 80s - - af t er ' 70s and
17 ' 80s , af t er Vi et nam, and par t i c ul ar l y at t he Uni ver s i t y
18 of Pennsyl vani a wher e I wor ked, we wor ked wi t h a l ot of
19 Vi et nam Vet s and i t came up. Real l y s t ar t ed t o see a
20 syndr ome. At f i r s t t hey at t r i but ed i t t o Agent Or ange
21 i n t he Vi et nam war . And t hen t hey r eal i zed t hat i t was
22 some sor t of anx i et y di sorder .
23 And pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der i s a
24 anxi et y di s or der . So i t i s i mpor t ant t o k eep t hat i n
25 mi nd.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
32/192
32
1 Ot her anx i et i es ar e gl obal . Ther e i s a
2 gl obal anxi et y di sor der t hat i s ver y common. Fear s .
3 Spec i f i c f ear s ar e al s o anxi et y di s or der s . But t hey ar e
4 t r aumat i c , r eal l y, event s t hat r eal l y awaken i n t he
5 body, psychol ogi cal and physi cal r esponses.
6 So wi t h pos t - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der - -
7 whi ch I somet i mes cal l i t t he Queen of Anxi et y Di sor der s
8 - - t her e i s a t r aumat i c event t hat makes t he per son f eel
9 t hat r eal l y under ver y ser i ous t hr eat or j eopar dy t hat
10 occur s i n t hat way. I t can be a f i r e, such as t hose who11 wi t nessed t he San Br uno f i r e.
12 Sexual abuse makes a chi l d f eel ver y
13 t hr eat ened i n t er ms of body i nt egr i t y. And t he DSM,
14 whi ch i s our di agnos t i c manual i n psychi at r y , t hi s r ed
15 book , i t r eal l y desc r i bes how wi t h chi l dr en, pos t - sexual
16 abuse, r eal l y makes t hem f eel t r aumat i zed and at t acked.
17 Because you can see, i t i s har d t o see, but a
18 f i r e and a s exual abus er , i f you' r e a c hi l d, ar e
19 s i mi l ar . But t hey r eal l y ar e s i mi l ar i n t er ms of some
20 of t he body' s r esponse t o i t .
21 So t her e' s a t r aumat i c event . I t r eal l y
22 di s t ur bs t he f unct i oni ng of t he young per son. And t hat
23 can be how t hey do i n school , how t hei r emot i onal st at e,
24 t hei r phys i cal r esponse.
25 And t hen t her e ar e t hr ee cat egor i es of
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
33/192
33
1 sympt oms t hat we' r e r eal l y l ook i ng at . The f i r s t one,
2 al most ever ybody knows about . The r e- exper i enci ng
3 sympt oms, whi ch ar e l i ke f l ashbacks, bad dr eams, t hat
4 you j us t can' t f or get t hi s t r auma. You can' t get i t out
5 of your mi nd and i t keeps c omi ng back.
6 And wi t h Ms. Cont i , one of t he most
7 di s t ur bi ng t hi ngs - - s he i s qui t e a wel l - r ead young
8 woman, and t he f i r s t t o r eal l y descr i be Edgar Al l an
9 Poe' s The Pi t and t he Pendul um st or y t o me.
10 But s he f eel s l i ke s he i s down i n t he pi t i n11 her dr eams and s he i s bei ng hel d down and abused. And
12 t hat r ecur r ent dr eam r eal l y r e- enac t s t he t r auma t hat
13 she has exper i enced. So t he r e- exper i enci ng sympt oms
14 ar e ver y i mpor t ant .
15 The s econd cat egor y ar e avoi dance s ympt oms .
16 You t r y t o avoi d t hi nk i ng about , f eel i ng or t al ki ng
17 about t he t r aumat i c event . And we have al l done t hat .
18 I r eal l y s t r ongl y enc our age avoi danc e, i f t her e i s a
19 t r aumat i c event i n pl ay and i t i s on t he t el ev i s i on.
20 You don' t want t o wat ch i t . You don' t want t o expos e
21 your chi l dr en t o t he t r auma of t he r epeat ed v i ewi ngs of
22 v i deos t hat ar e t r aumat i c .
23 So t hat as pec t i s r eal l y, r eal l y i mpor t ant t o
24 use s ome avoi dance.
25 But i f you avoi d i t c ompl et el y, t hen i t s t i l l
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
34/192
34
1 i s i ns i de you, as i t was wi t h Ms . Cont i . She avoi ded
2 t al ki ng about i t . Real l y hi d i t . Not f eel i ng s af e t o
3 t al k about i t . And i t r eal l y af f ec t e d her i nt er nal
4 wor l d i n a ver y i mpor t ant way and cont r i but ed, I t hi nk ,
5 t o some of her s i gni f i cant pr obl ems, you know, whi ch
6 wer e subst ances and al so depr essi on, you know, t hat wer e
7 used, I t hi nk , t o soot he her and hel p her wi t h t hi s .
8 The t hi r d cat egor y ar e physi cal sympt oms wi t h
9 post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . And t hat can be
10 hyper vi gi l ance, you ar e j umpy, you ar e wat chf ul , you ar e11 r eal l y c hec ki ng t hi ngs out . You ar e c ar ef ul l y l ooki ng
12 at ever yt hi ng because you have been t hr ough somet hi ng
13 t hat has r eal l y t aught you t o wat ch t hi ngs i n a
14 di f f er ent way.
15 So t hat ' s what t he di agnos i s i s . That i s how
16 i t i s made, t hr ough t he t hr ee cat egor i es . And t hat i s
17 r eal l y t he way we t hi nk about i t .
18 Q. Do you have an opi ni on, wi t h r easonabl e,
19 pr of ess i onal cer t a i nt y, based on your knowl edge and
20 educat i on and t r ai ni ng, and your wor k i n t hi s spec i f i c
21 case, as t o whet her or not Candace Cont i exper i enced
22 post - t r aumat i c st r ess s yndr ome as a r esul t o f her s exual
23 abuse?
24 A. I do, Mr . Si mons .
25 Q. And what i s your opi ni on?
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
35/192
35
1 A. That she has sever e chr oni c post - t r aumat i c
2 s t r es s di s or der .
3 Q. You used t he wor d " chr oni c. " What does t hat
4 r ef er t o?
5 A. Chr oni c means t hat i t ' s l as t ed l onger t han
6 s i x mont hs . And, f or her , i t has l as t ed f or y ear s .
7 Q. And i f we coul d l ook at Exhi bi t 55.
8 Now, you ment i oned t hat you had r evi ewed Ms .
9 Cont i ' s medi cal r ecor ds?
10 A. That ' s c or r ec t . I have. And I ac t ual l y11 t agged t hi s and my copy of i t . Thi s par t i cul ar r ecor d,
12 I t hi nk I have i t .
13 Q. And t hi s i s a r ecor d f r om August of 2002.
14 A. That ' s c or r ec t .
15 Q. Why i s t hi s r ec or d s i gni f i c ant t o you i n
16 f or mi ng your opi ni ons? And par t i cul ar l y wi t h r egar d t o
17 t he opi ni on you j ust expr essed about chr oni c PTSD.
18 A. Wel l , t hi s i s an ear l y di s c l os ur e of abus e.
19 I mean, i t i s r eal l y goi ng t o be, you know, year s bef or e
20 Ms. Cont i i s f or t unat e enough t o get t he t r eat ment t hat
21 she needs.
22 But i f we l ook - - l ook at t he s t ar - - t hi s i s
23 Dr . Af r uma' s r epor t . And i f you l ook mi dway down t her e,
24 t he abuse i s r epor t ed, pr esumabl y, by Candace t o hi m f or
25 age 9 t o 13. And i t i s i nt er es t i ng - - t hat ' s an
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
36/192
36
1 appr oxi mat e, you know, age. And I woul d guess t hat
2 Candace sai d t hat she had been abused f or a coupl e of
3 year s.
4 Why t hi s i s i mpor t ant i s she i s much younger
5 at t hi s poi nt i n t i me, but s he i s gi vi ng t hi s
6 di s cl os ur e. And i t r eal l y ai ds i n cr edi bi l i t y and i t i s
7 r eal l y l ook i ng at t he s t or y over t i me.
8 So i t i s i mpor t ant t hat t hat had come up and
9 she was t hi nk i ng about i t . I t i s i mpor t ant t o know, i n
10 sexual abuse, t hat i t can be di sc l osed and t hen t he11 per son get s scar ed agai n and doesn' t t al k about i t . So
12 i t has t o do, r eal l y, wi t h how s af e you f eel i n t he
13 env i r onment t al k i ng about i t .
14 So she t al ks about i t her e. She al so
15 acknowl edges , at t hi s poi nt , t hat i t began at about 9
16 year s of age when she was a ver y young chi l d. And you
17 have t o t hi nk, 9 i s ver y young. I t i s r eal l y an
18 el ement ar y st udent . And you see t hose ki ds on t he
19 pl aygr ound, pr obabl y have your own gr andki ds and ki ds,
20 and t hey ar e ver y, ver y young.
21 I t hi nk what i s i nt er es t i ng about t hi s - - and
22 I have t o say somet hi ng about our pedi at r i c gr oup, whi ch
23 I ' m par t of t oo wi t h s ome t r ai ni ng - - i t i s wr i t t en,
24 " not di s c us s ed f ur t her . "
25 And I wi l l j us t say somet hi ng about i t , not
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
37/192
37
1 s o much a comment about Candace, of t en t hey do not s ay
2 " not di scussed f ur t her " because t her e i s t he quest i on of
3 mandat or y r epor t i ng appl i cabl e at t hi s poi nt i n t i me.
4 And t hey say t hat because t hat cover s t hem i n t er ms of
5 not r epor t i ng.
6 So I t hi nk t hat t hat ' s why t hat i s wr i t t en i n
7 t hat par t i cul ar way, but i t suppor t s Candace' s l at er
8 di s cl os ur e.
9 MR. SCHNACK: Your Honor , can we have a s i de
10 bar , pl ease?11 THE COURT: Sur e.
12 ( Si debar Di scuss i on)
13 BY MR. SI MONS:
14 Q. Let ' s l ook at t he second page of t he Dr .
15 Af r uma' s heal t h f or m, August 2002.
16 Now, ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h t he st andar d
17 medi cal r ecor dkeepi ng t echni ques?
18 A. I have t o say t hat we j ust went t o Apex t oday
19 at UC. And not bei ng t her e, I am mi ss i ng bei ng or i ent ed
20 on i t . And s o i t i s c hangi ng. But I r ead a l ot of
21 medi cal r ecor ds ever y day. Yeah.
22 Q. I s t her e a s t andar d des i gnat i on f or t he " OAP"
23 t hat we see i n t he mi ddl e?
24 A. Yes . I t i s ac t ual l y " SOAP" . They ar e c al l ed
25 " SOAP not es. " Subj ect i ve Obj ect i ve Ass essment and Pl an
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
38/192
38
1 i s what t hey mean. I t i s our s t andar d f or mat t i ng f or
2 not es. Not ever ybody uses i t . And i t has become
3 r eal l y - - we ar e goi ng t o t he box syst em wi t h Apex al l
4 over t he count r y . I t s t ar t s t oday at UCSF . And we
5 check boxes. And we ar e usi ng a new f or mat . So SOAP i s
6 pr obabl y goi ng t o go by t he ways i de. So i t i s
7 chal l engi ng.
8 But what i s i mpor t ant her e i s , i f you l ook at
9 t he assessment par t t her e, t hese ar e t he doct or s '
10 di agnoses and post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sorder , depr ess i on11 and i nsomni a. And t hen t he r ecommendat i on under t he
12 pl an i s r eal l y encour aged t o di scuss wi t h t he counse l or ,
13 ps yc hi at r i s t , c ons i der c ogni t i ve t her apy as par t of t he
14 t r eat ment pl an.
15 And I t hi nk t hat ' s - - what cogni t i ve t her apy
16 i s , c ogni t i ve t her apy i s a t her apy t hat t ar get s
17 t hought s. And cogni t i ve t her apy was devel oped by Aar on
18 Beck at t he Uni ver s i t y of Pennsy l vani a. And i t r eal l y
19 i s us ef ul i n r ec ur r ent t hought s f r om pos t - t r aumat i c
20 s t r es s di s or der i n hel pi ng t he i ndi vi dual t o c ope wi t h
21 t hem.
22 You gener al l y need i t , al ong wi t h a l ot of
23 ot her t r eat ment i n somebody who has a chr oni c case l i ke
24 t he one wi t h Ms. Cont i .
25 Q. I s t hi s r ec or d t he f i r s t s ugges t i on i n any of
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
39/192
39
1 Ms. Cont i ' s medi cal r ecor ds about a poss i bl e
2 pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der t hat exi s t ed pr i or t o
3 your eval uat i on of her ?
4 A. I t i s t he f i r s t one, Mr . Si mons , t hat I have
5 s een. You know, we don' t al ways have ever y medi cal
6 r ecor d.
7 I t hi nk t her e i s one mor e poi nt I woul d l i ke
8 t o make of f of i t , as I put on my gl asses her e, I can
9 r eal l y s ee bet t er - - and t hi s doc t or al s o s aw, and i t
10 s ays - - i t ment i oned how t he dr ugs c an be used t o numb11 t he exper i ences.
12 So Ms. Cont i ' s use of subst ances coul d have
13 been used t o numb her sympt oms of post - t r aumat i c s t r ess
14 di s or der . And t he doc t or v er y ni c el y s ai d t hat i t i s
15 best t o have a pr oper di agnosi s and t r eat ment pl an.
16 So I t hi nk what t he doct or was t r y i ng t o do
17 was r edi r ect her e and set her on a pr oper cour se. Of
18 cour se, she i s a ver y young gi r l when she comes i n f or
19 t hi s .
20 Thank you.
21 Q. Now, wi t h r egar d t o t he chr oni c par t of PTSD,
22 does PTSD t hat has exi st ed i n a chr oni c st at e of mor e
23 t han s i x mont hs have mor e di f f i cul t y bei ng subj ec t ed t o
24 t r eat ment t han ot her f or ms of PTSD t hat may be acut er or
25 of s hor t er dur at i on?
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
40/192
40
1 A. That ' s cor r ec t , Mr . Si mons .
2 Ther e i s a coupl e of t hi ngs we l ook at . What
3 makes a case r equi r e l onger per i ods of t r eat ment ? One
4 i s t he chr oni c i t y, r eal l y how l ong i t has been t her e.
5 The ot her ar e what we wi l l cal l " co- mor bi d
6 di agnoses , " t he ot her pr obl ems t hat go al ong wi t h i t .
7 I n Ms . Cont i ' s case , t he depr ess i on t hat goes
8 al ong wi t h i t makes i t har der t o t r eat , and t he hi s t or y
9 of subst ances makes i t har der t o t r eat t oo.
10 So t hose t hi ngs r eal l y mean t hat you have t o11 s pend mor e t i me, you have t o have a much mor e of a
12 t al k i ng r el at i onshi p wi t h t he young per son.
13 For exampl e, af t er t he San Br uno f i r e , we
14 wor ked i n sever a l of t he school s i n t he San Br uno ar ea
15 t o t ar get pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der i n t he f i r s t
16 f our weeks af t er t he f i r e. And we had some success wi t h
17 t h a t .
18 But t hat ' s ver y ear l y i nt er vent i on, you know.
19 And i f you have a s i t uat i on t hat i s ex i s t i ng much
20 l onger , i t i s r eal l y much har der t o wor k wi t h.
21 Q. You ment i oned t he dr ug use.
22 F i r s t of al l , you ar e awar e of Candace
23 Cont i ' s sust ai ned hi s t or y of subst ance abuse?
24 A. I am. I don' t know how much of t hat we ar e
25 t o t al k about . I want t o f ol l ow al l t he r ul es her e, Mr .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
41/192
41
1 Si mons , t hough.
2 Q. Do you have an opi ni on as t o whet her or not
3 her year s of subst ance abuse ar e caused i n subst ant i al
4 por t i on f r om t he sexual abuse she exper i enced as a
5 chi l d?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. What i s your opi ni on?
8 A. As Dr . Af r uma s ai d her e, I t hi nk i t i s ver y
9 l i kel y t hat Candace was usi ng t hese dr ugs t o numb her
10 s ympt oms . I t hi nk s he had ver y s t r ong s ympt oms of 11 pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s di s or der . And I t hi nk t hos e
12 dr ugs - - many of t he dr ugs t hat peopl e se l l on t he
13 st r eet ar e ant i depr essant s . You know, t hey ar e not what
14 we buy or use and t hey ar e not what we wi s h f or peopl e
15 because t hey ar e badl y made and have l ot s of si de
16 ef f ec t s , and t hey r ui n peopl e' s l i ves . But t hey ar e
17 ant i depr essant s .
18 Q. Now, do you have f ami l i ar i t y wi t h t he var i ous
19 s t udi es a nd st at i s t i c al i nf or mat i on conc er ni ng genet i c
20 f act or s i n subst ance abuse?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And based on your i nf or mat i on wor ki ng on t hi s
23 case and your pr of essi onal knowl edge, do you have an
24 opi ni on as t o whet her or not i t woul d be mor e l i kel y
25 t han not t hat Candace Cont i woul d have been i n sust ai ned
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
42/192
42
1 subst ance abuse absent t he chi l d sex abuse?
2 A. I don' t know how I can say t hi s and st ay
3 wi t hi n t he r ul es , but I wi l l t r y.
4 I bel i eve s he s uf f er ed ver y s i gni f i c ant
5 sexual abuse at an ear l y age. Ni ne i s ver y ear l y . You
6 know, i t i s not j us t f ondl i ng. I don' t k now i f t he
7 det ai l s of t he di sc l osur es have been gi ven. And i t went
8 on f or a s i gni f i cant per i od of t i me, and t her e wer e
9 mul t i pl e epi sodes . So al l of t hat makes i t ver y
10 s i gni f i cant .11 Wi t h r espect t o your quest i on about genet i cs
12 and subst ance abuse, i f a f ami l y member was usi ng
13 subst ances and, you know, genet i cal l y car r i ed t hat
14 pr edi sposi t i on, you know, how woul d t hat af f ect
15 Ms. Cont i ?
16 Ther e ar e s t udi es t hat i ndi cat e t hat t her e
17 ar e hi gher r at es i n chi l dr en of subst ance abuser s t hat
18 ar e goi ng t o use subst ances t oo.
19 But t her e ar e - - al s o, t he vas t maj or i t y of
20 chi l dr en of subst ance abuser s do not use subst ances.
21 You know, and many of us know t hi s , becaus e we have
22 par ent s who mi ght dr i nk, and we i nst ead deci de we ar e
23 never goi ng t o do t hat and we ar e goi ng t o st ay away
24 f r om i t , and, you know, t hi ngs l i ke t hat .
25 So I t hi nk t hat i s t he maj or i t y of peopl e.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
43/192
43
1 So j ust because your par ent s had a genet i c pr opensi t y ,
2 you know, t o use and car r y t hat genet i c l oadi ng, doesn' t
3 mean t hat you ar e necess ar i l y goi ng t o become a user .
4 Q. Di d you do a t r auma ass ess ment of Candace
5 Cont i ?
6 A. I di d. I wi l l l ook f or t hat r i ght her e.
7 Q. And whi l e you ar e l ooki ng, can you t e l l us
8 what a t r auma ass ess ment i s ?
9 A. We ar e t r y i ng - - much i n t he l ast f ew year s,
10 we have t r i ed t o nor mal i ze t he t est i ng t hat we ar e11 doi ng. And we ar e espec i al l y t r y i ng t o do i t wi t h t he
12 bi g cases , so we can get val i di t y on our t es t i ng
13 mechani sms f or post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . So t hi s
14 i s t he pos t - t r aumat i c st r es s chec kl i s t , t he
15 c i v i l i an var i ant . And i n t er ms of her s ympt oms, you
16 know, I wi l l go t hr ough t hem so t hat you have some i dea
17 about t hem.
18 She has r epeat ed di st ur bi ng memor i es, as I
19 ment i oned t he dr eam of The Pi t and Pendul um, you know,
20 and bei ng hel d down. That i s one of t he most di st ur bi ng
21 t hi ngs f or her . She has a l ot o f t r i gger i ng wi t h
22 phys i cal r eac t i ons , whi ch i s hear t poundi ng, t r oubl e
23 br eat hi ng or sweat i ng.
24 You know, one of t he ways you can f i nd out i f
25 somebody has had t r auma i s i f t hey ar e t aken i n f or
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
44/192
44
1 pani c at t acks t o t he emer gency r oom, you have a f ami l y
2 member at home t hat has had an exper i ence l i ke t hat ,
3 of t en t hat i s l i nked i nt o t hat . So t hat i s a key, I
4 t hi nk , t o keep i n mi nd.
5 And she had a l ot of physi cal sympt oms t hat
6 wer e r epor t ed t o var i ous docs.
7 Then l oss of i nt er es t i n t hi ngs t hat she used
8 t o enj oy i s ver y , ver y i mpor t ant .
9 What i s a l so not ewor t hy about adol escent s i n
10 t hi s , i n pos t - t r aumat i c s t r es s , i s t hey f eel as i f t hei r11 l i f e i s goi ng t o be cut shor t i f t hey have exper i enced a
12 t r aumat i c event . And she has t hat f eel i ng t hat she wi l l
13 di e young. J ust because she exper i enced somet hi ng so
14 bad so ear l y , she i s conv i nced t hat t hi s i s goi ng t o
15 happen t o her .
16 That , wi t h adol escent s and chi l dr en who have
17 had t r auma, i s i nc r edi bl y c har ac t e r i s t i c of i t . So t hat
18 i s a maj or pr obl em.
19 Then ot her t hi ngs , she i s super al er t and she
20 f eel s j umpy.
21 So t hose ar e t he t hi ngs t hat showed up on
22 t hi s scor i ng mechani sm.
23 Q. Over t he t i me t hat you have s een Candace
24 Cont i , have you seen s i gni f i cant i mpr ovement i n her
25 over al l c ondi t i on?
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
45/192
45
1 And f i r s t of al l , l et me s t ar t out , you ar e
2 awar e she' s been i n t r eat ment ?
3 A. I am awar e of t hat , Mr . Si mons . I s t r ongl y
4 suppor t ed t hat .
5 Q. And have you seen i mpr ovement f r om t he f i r st
6 t i me you saw her t o t he l ast t i me you saw her ?
7 A. Ver y much so.
8 Q. And i s t hat i mpr ovement a s i gni f i cant
9 f i ndi ng?
10 A. Yes . Bec aus e i t r eal l y i ndi c at es - - I t hi nk11 when t he abuse i s di sc l osed and a per son i s abl e t o t al k
12 about i t and r eal l y f i gur e out how i t made t hem f eel and
13 r es pond as a c hi l d, i t i s ver y hel pf ul .
14 And knowi ng t hat she has r esponded so wel l ,
15 now t hat t he abuse st or y has come out , i s r eal l y ver y
16 i mpor t ant i n t hi s case.
17 Q. What i s your pr ognosi s f or her ?
18 A. Wi t h t r eat ment - - and she wi l l r equi r e a l ot
19 of t r eat ment - - I bel i eve she has a f ai r t o good
20 pr ognos i s .
21 They say you never r eal l y r ecover f r om
22 chr oni c sever e post - t r aumat i c s t r ess di sor der . Meani ng
23 t hat i f a t r aumat i c event happens l at er i n your l i f e, i t
24 r e- t r i gger s i t .
25 But you get wonder f ul copi ng s t r at egi es f r om
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
46/192
46
1 t her apy, and r eal l y t he s ens e t hat your r es i l i enc y i s
2 i ncr eased and you can mast er t hi s.
3 As I sai d i n my r epor t , I am r ecommendi ng t wo
4 year s of i nt ens i ve, t hr ee t i mes per week, t her apy f or
5 her and f ol l owed by s i x year s o f i ndi v i dual t r eat ment of
6 one t i me per week.
7 I t hi nk t he t ot al amount , f i nanc i al l y, was
8 about $160, 000 f or t hat i n t oday' s wor l d i n money.
9 Q. Do you have an opi ni on as t o whet her or not
10 Candace Cont i exhi bi t s o r suf f er s f r om any ot her11 ps yc hi at r i c i l l nes s or di agnos i s of s i gni f i c anc e t hat
12 woul d af f ect any of t he mat t er s we have t al ked about so
13 f ar i n your opi ni ons ?
14 A. Yes. I a l r eady ment i oned t he depr ess i on.
15 And she meet s - - s he was di agnosed as depr ess ed her e by
16 Dr . Af r uma year s bef or e.
17 The t ype of depr ess i on t hat I di agnosed her
18 wi t h i s dyst hymi a. And t hat i s a depr essed mood t hat i s
19 r eal l y ongoi ng, chr oni c and over a per i od of t i me. I t
20 cont r ast s wi t h maj or depr ess i ve di sor der , whi ch you have
21 pr obabl y hear d about .
22 Bot h need t r eat ment . Dyst hymi a i s mor e
23 common when somebody has had depr es s i on. They may have
24 had a maj or depr ess i ve di sor der , as she di d, pr obabl y at
25 t he t i me of t he abuse and f el t l i ke har mi ng her sel f , di d
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
47/192
47
1 some sel f - mut i l at i on and cut t i ng, whi ch i s ver y
2 char act er i s t i c of young gi r l s who have been sexual l y
3 abused. But t hen i t evol ves i nt o a chr oni c depr essed
4 s t at e, whi c h i s what t hi s di d.
5 I n addi t i on, as you know, Mr . Si mons, t he
6 subst ance abuse di sor der s ar e psychi at r i c di agnoses t oo.
7 Q. What about par anoi a or ot her s i mi l ar t ypes of
8 di agnoses? Does she have any evi dence t hat she exhi bi t s
9 i n her r ecor ds o r i n your i nt er vi ews wi t h her of t hose
10 t ypes of di agnoses?11 A. I t i s i mpor t ant t o s ay, I t hi nk, what
12 par anoi a i s .
13 She does not , f i r s t of al l , and her t hi nki ng
14 i s ver y c l ear . I am ver y i mpr es s ed wi t h her abi l i t y t o
15 r ead, use her mi nd, use t her apy. That i s r eal l y comi ng
16 t o l i ght . And I wi s h her wel l i n her c ar eer wi t h
17 ani mal s. Ani mal s need t r eat ment t oo. They ar e not my
18 f avor i t e. I ' m not an ani mal per s on. But t hey r eal l y
19 need hel p and she l oves t hem.
20 And so I t hi nk t hat t hat ' s ver y i mpor t ant .
21 So she has got a pat h of pur sui t , and i s r eal l y i nt ent
22 upon t hat . And t hat i s r eal l y ver y i mpor t ant .
23 MR. SI MONS: Thank you.
24 I have no f ur t her quest i ons .
25
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
48/192
48
1 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON
2 BY MR. SCHNACK:
3 Q. You t est i f i ed t hat Candace exper i enced what
4 you cal l a l engt hy per i od of abuse; i s t hat cor r ec t ,
5 ma' am?
6 A. Yes . I f you coul d pl ease cal l me " doc t or . "
7 I know i t i s a l ot t o as k, but i t i s my t i t l e and
8 f unct i on her e and I wor ked har d f or i t .
9 Q. I ' m not s ur e t hat I di dn' t addr es s you as
10 doct or .11 A. You addr essed me as, " ma' am. " But t hat ' s
12 okay.
13 Q. Okay. Ther e i s no mal i ce i nt ended t her e.
14 A. Thank you ver y much. Thank you f or doi ng
15 t h a t .
16 THE COURT: Al l r i ght , Mr . Schnack.
17 MR. SCHNACK: Thank you, your Honor .
18 BY MR. SCHNACK:
19 Q. I n your r epor t , you wr ot e t hat Candace t o l d
20 you t hat she had been abused, quot e, mor e t han t wi ce per
21 mont h, and of t en i t happened f our t o s i x t i mes per
22 mont h, c l ose quot e, by Mr . Kendr i ck.
23 Do you r ecal l t hat ?
24 A. Yes. I have got my r epor t her e, and I knew
25 you wer e goi ng t o quest i on me on t hat .
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
49/192
49
1 Q. Ma' am - - I ' m s or r y, Doct or , i f you coul d j us t
2 answer t he quest i ons wi t hout t he s i del i nes , I woul d
3 appr ec i at e t hat .
4 A. Okay. Can you pl ease r epeat t hat ?
5 Q. Cer t ai nl y.
6 Do you r ecal l wr i t i ng i n your r epor t t hat
7 Candace r epor t ed t o you t hat f or t hr ee year s s he had
8 been abused, quot e, mor e t han t wi ce per mont h and of t en
9 t hey happened si x t i mes per mont h, c l ose quot e, by
10 J onat han Kendr i ck?11 A. I have i t her e. I don' t r ecal l wr i t i ng i t ,
12 but i t i s i n f r ont of me and I wr ot e i t .
13 Q. And t hen f ur t her down i n t hat same par agr aph,
14 you, quot e, i n summar y, Candace' s sequence of abuse by
15 J onat han t ook pl ac e over t hr ee year s and i nvol ved
16 hundr eds of epi sodes of sexual abuse, c l ose quot e.
17 Di d I r ead t hat c or r ec t l y?
18 A. Yes . Thi s i s i n my par t of t he r epor t ,
19 descr i pt i on of t he event s as r epor t ed by Candace Cont i .
20 So i t was what she t ol d me dur i ng t hat f i r st
21 i nt er vi ew.
22 Q. And - - okay. Let ' s t ur n now t o your
23 deposi t i on. You char ged $800 an hour f or t hat
24 depos i t i on; i s t hat c or r ec t ?
25 A. The r at es ar e set by t he Uni ver s i t y of
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
50/192
50
1 Cal i f or ni a, whi ch I am a f acul t y member o f . And t hen
2 t hey go i nt o my uni ver si t y compensat i on pl an whi ch pays
3 f or my s t af f .
4 Q. I s t hat a yes or a no?
5 A. I di d char ge t hat . They char ged t hat , yes .
6 Q. And how much ar e you char gi ng Mr . Si mons f or
7 appear i ng her e t oday?
8 A. I t hi nk t he r at e mi ght be $900 f or cour t
9 t est i mony.
10 Q. And i s i t f a i r t o say you have char ged 25 or11 $30, 000 or mor e f or t he eval uat i on of t hi s case?
12 A. Not at al l . I t hi nk you s aw t he bi l l i ng.
13 And I wi l l get i t f or you, and I c an t el l you.
14 Q. How many hour s have you put i nt o i t ?
15 A. I wi l l f i nd i t . I want t o make s ur e.
16 I t hi nk , i f you r emember f r om my depos i t i on,
17 t hat t he bi l l i ng was r emar k abl y l ow i n t hi s c as e, par t l y
18 bec aus e I ' m ver y - - I ' m a s peed r eader , and i t i s
19 r el at i vel y qui c k. So l et me l ook at t hi s .
20 And I t hi nk - -
21 Q. Wi t h al l due r espect , we di dn' t di scuss your
22 bi l l i ngs i n your depos i t i on.
23 But go ahead and r espond.
24 A. I br ought t hem t her e f or di scuss i on and was
25 not asked about t hem.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
51/192
51
1 But I t hi nk, appr oxi mat el y, t he t ot al
2 bi l l i ngs her e ar e wel l under $8, 000. And t hat ' s up
3 unt i l t he t i me of t he depos i t i on. I woul d guess t hat
4 s i nce t hat t i me, pr obabl y , you know, i n pr epar at i on, you
5 depo- ed me i n one hour , s o t hat was $800.
6 I pr obabl y - -
7 Q. But I pai d t hat . Cor r ec t ?
8 A. Yes. But I got t hat money. So you di d pay
9 me.
10 Thank you f or doi ng t hat . I put i t i n my11 comp pl an.
12 But I t hi nk pr obabl y t he t ot al on t hi s i s
13 much cl oser t o t wel ve t o $15, 000 f or bei ng mor e t han a
14 year at wor k on t he case.
15 MR. SCHNACK: Okay. No f ur t her quest i ons .
16 THE COURT: Mr . McCabe?
17 MR. SI MONS: No, t hank you, your Honor .
18 THE COURT: Mr . Si mons?
19 MR. SI MONS: Yes. I have one quest i on.
20
21 REDI RECT EXAMI NATI ON
22 BY MR. SI MONS:
23 Q. Doct or , di d I under st and you cor r ec t l y t hat
24 t he money t hat you char ge and r ecei ve act ual l y goes
25 t hr ough t he Regent s and i nt o your depar t ment , and not t o
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
52/192
52
1 you per sonal l y?
2 A. Ri ght . I t goes i nt o a s har ed uni ver s i t y
3 compensat i on pl an and pays f or a per cent age of our
4 sal ar y and i s used - - I have t wo ass i s t ant s . And
5 es pec i al l y, s i nc e I ' m s wi t c hi ng t o t he Apex, we al l have
6 t o t r a i n, and t hey hel p me a l ot . They ar e younger .
7 Q. So t hat does not go t o you per sonal l y?
8 A. Does not go t o me per sonal l y, no.
9 MR. SI MONS: That ' s al l I have.
10 MR. SCHNACK: Not hi ng f ur t her .11 THE COURT: Doct or , t hank you ver y much f or
12 your t i me. You ar e now excused.
13 ( Wher eupon, t he f ol l owi ng pr oceedi ngs
14 wer e hear d out s i de t he pr esence of j ur or s)
15 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . P l ease have a seat .
16 The j ur y i s out s i de of t he cour t r oom.
17 MR. SCHNACK: Yes , your Honor . We want ed t o
18 move f or a di r ect ed ver di ct on t he puni t i ve damages
19 c l ai ms , t he l as t cause of ac t i on al l eged i n The
20 Wat cht ower Bi bl e and Tr ac t Soc i et y ' s Compl ai nt , t her e i s
21 no evi dence of mal i ce of pr essur e and t hought , or much
22 l ess c l ear and convi nc i ng evi dence of t hat , and we ask
23 t hat t hat be s t r i c ken f r om t he c as e at t hi s poi nt .
24 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Mot i on f or Di r ec t ed
25 Ver di c t not ed as t o i t s t i mel i ness and c i r cumst ance.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
53/192
53
1 I wi l l r eser ve i t unt i l t omor r ow f or ar gument
2 and i n br i ef i ng and what anybody want s t o do. Because I
3 expect we wi l l conc l ude f ai r l y ear l y t omor r ow. And I
4 wi l l dec i de t he mot i on at t hat t i me, af t er due
5 cons i der at i on of any t hi ng f ur t her and al l ev i dence.
6 Al l r i ght . Let ' s t ake a br eak unt i l t went y
7 t o 10 and we cont i nue t o go f or war d.
8 ( Br eak t aken)
9 THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Mr . McCabe, your
10 f i r s t wi t nes s.11 MR. McCABE: Def ense woul d cal l Ms. Ber ni ce
12 Munoz t o t he st and, your Honor .
13 THE COURT: Wel come, Ms . Munoz .
14 P l ease st and and r ai se your r i ght hand.
15
16 BERNI CE MUNOZ
17 WAS DULY SWORN TO TEL L THE TRUTH BY THE CLERK
18 AND TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 THE CLERK: Woul d you pl ease s t at e your name
21 and spel l your f i r s t and l as t name f or t he recor d.
22 THE WI TNESS: Ber ni ce Munoz, B- E- R- N- I - C- E,
23 and l ast name Munoz i s M- U- N- O- Z.
24 THE COURT: Woul d you pl ease move t he chai r
25 f or war d so t hat you ar e mor e comf or t abl e, a l i t t l e mor e
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
54/192
54
1 f or war d. And t hen i s t hat comf or t abl e f or you?
2 THE WI TNESS: I t hi nk so.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4
5 DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON
6 BY MR. McCABE:
7 Q. Coul d you t e l l us wher e you l i ve?
8 A. F r e mont , Cal i f or ni a.
9 Q. And ar e you mar r i ed?
10 A. Yes, I am.11 Q. What i s your hus band' s name?
12 A. Dani el Munoz.
13 Q. How many chi l dr en do you have?
14 A. Four sons.
15 Q. Do you have any gr andchi l dr en?
16 A. Yes , I do.
17 Q. How many?
18 A. Twel ve.
19 Q. Wow, congr at ul at i ons.
20 Do you have gr eat gr andchi l dr en?
21 A. El even.
22 Q. Okay. And ar e you one of J ehovah' s
23 Wi t nesses?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. When di d you become bapt i zed as one of
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
55/192
55
1 J ehovah' s Wi t nes ses?
2 A. I n J une of 1987.
3 Q. And wer e you ass oci at ed at t he t i me of your
4 bapt i sm wi t h t he Nor t h Fr emont Congr egat i on of J ehovah' s
5 Wi t nesses?
6 A. Yes , I was .
7 Q. Ar e you s t i l l as s oc i at ed wi t h t hat
8 congr egat i on?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Di d you at t end meet i ngs at t hat congr egat i on11 i n 1993 t hr ough 1997?
12 A. Yes , I di d.
13 Q. I ' m goi ng t o show you what has been
14 pr evi ousl y mar ked as Def ense Exhi bi t Number 132, and ask
15 you i f you r ecogni ze t hi s phot ogr aph.
16 Do you r ecogni ze t hat ?
17 A. Yes , I do.
18 Q. Can you see i t wel l enough?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What i s t hi s?
21 A. I t i s t he ent r yway of t he Ki ngdom Hal l of
22 J ehovah' s Wi t nes ses .
23 Q. Okay. I s t hat t he Ki ngdom Hal l t hat you
24 at t end, t he ent r yway?
25 A. Yes.
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
56/192
56
1 Q. The next s l i de.
2 Do you r ecogni ze t hi s one?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What i s i t ?
5 A. I t i s t he bac k s i de of t he Ki ngdom Hal l .
6 Q. Okay. I t l ooks l i ke t her e i s doubl e door
7 t her e.
8 I s t hat what you see?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And i s t hat t he ent r yway t o t he Ki ngdom Hal l ?11 A. Yes , i t i s .
12 Q. And i s t hat wher e most f ol ks come i nt o t he
13 meet i ng and ent er i n t hr ough t hat door ?
14 A. Yes, uh- huh.
15 Q. And do t hey al so exi t out t hat door ?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. The next phot ogr aph I woul d l i ke t o
18 show you i s anot her pi c t ur e.
19 Do you r ecogni ze any of t he peopl e i n t hat
20 pi c t ur e?
21 A. Yes , I do.
22 Q. Okay. Do you r ecogni ze t he i nt er i or , what
23 t hat r oom i s ?
24 A. Yes , i t i s t he Ki ngdom Hal l .
25 Q. Okay. And t hi s l ook s l i ke an audi t or i um wi t h
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
57/192
57
1 a - - l ooks l i ke an ai s l e goi ng down her e.
2 I s t her e one or mor e ai s l es separ at i ng t hat
3 ar e t hese seat s?
4 A. Ther e i s t wo ai s l es .
5 Q. Okay. So one down t hi s si de?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And t hen one down t he ot her s i de wher e t he
8 mai n gr oup of peopl e ar e pi ct ur ed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know how many s eat s ar e on each s i de11 of t he ai s l es ?
12 A. Maybe 25.
13 Q. On t he s i des or i n t he mi ddl e?
14 A. On t he s i de ai s l es?
15 Q. Yes , on t he s i des .
16 A. Maybe l i ke ar ound 30.
17 Q. Okay. How many peopl e can be s eat ed i n t hi s
18 audi t or i um, i f you know?
19 A. Somet i mes maybe over 200.
20 Q. Okay. For a nor mal meet i ng cur r ent l y, what
21 i s your at t endance l i ke?
22 A. Maybe about a 180.
23 Q. How about back i n t he 1990s? ' 94, ' 95, ' 96?
24 A. I t was pr et t y much t he same.
25 Q. Okay. I t ' s a mi x of adul t s , c hi l dr en,
8/20/2019 Watchtower: Jury Trial Day 5, Candace Conti v. Watchtower
58/192
58
1 younger , ol der peopl e, f ami l i es?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you r emember back i n t he mi d- 1990s a
4 f ami l y i n t he congr egat i on known as t he Cont i f ami l y?
5 A. Yes , I do.
6 Q. Do you r emember who made up t hat f ami l y?
7 A. The f at her , t he mot her and a c hi l d. A l i t t l e
8 gi r l .
9 Q. Do you r emember what t he l i t t l e gi r l ' s name
10 was ?11 A. I bel i eve i t was Candace.
12 Q. Okay. Do you r emember what s he l ooked l i ke?
13 A. Yeah. She was whi t e and she had r eddi sh
14 br own hai r .
15 Q. Do you r emember what t he f at her and mot her ' s
16 names wer e?
17 A. I ' m s or r y .
18 Q. Fat her and mot her ' s name, do you r emember
19 what t hey wer e?
20 A. Neal Cont i and t he mot her , I bel i eve, was
21 Kat hy Cont i .
22 �