V M T 0 6 9 : K R I S SK A L E T SK I O N T E A C H I N G ...Kris+S… · Vibrant, vibrant, vibrant music teaching. Proven and practical tips, strategies and ideas for Music Teachers.

VMT069: KRIS SKALETSKI ON TEACHING PRESCHOOLERS IN GROUPS

Vibrant, vibrant, vibrant music teaching. Proven and practical tips, strategies and ideas for Music Teachers.

Nicola Cantan: You're listening to Episode 69 of the Vibrant Music Teaching Podcast. I'm

Nicola Cantan, and in this show, I'm sharing an interview with Kris Skaletski all about teaching preschoolers in group music classes.

Welcome back, beautiful teachers. As you may have heard on a previous episode or elsewhere, I have a new book out, Playful Preschool Piano Teaching. This book is all about how to teach preschoolers from a general perspective, not using one specific methodology or one specific approach but general best practices. And so, as I put together this book, I interviewed three different wonderful teachers to share their experiences to learn from them about what was working for them so that I could get as broad a perspective on teaching these young fingers and these tiny little fingers how to play the piano and all about music.

And so, as part of my preparation, I interviewed these three women. The first one was Kris Skaletski. And so, I'm sharing the interview that I did with Kris here on the show now that the book has come out and all the secrets can be revealed.

Kris Skaletski is the creator and publisher of KiddyKeys Piano and Music All-Star teaching materials. She has over 35 years of experience leading piano lesson programs and preschool music, teaching in both home and school settings in Green Bay, Wisconsin. In 2015, Kris partnered with Jennifer Eklund of Piano Pronto to co-author the Roadtrip! piano books for young beginners. She has recently released Piano Playground and Under the "C" piano books for rote learning and note learning.

A lifelong Green Bay area resident, Kris and her husband, Jack, have two grown children. An avid Green Bay Packers fan, Kris also enjoys tending her flower beds and a morning cup of coffee on her front porch.

I'm so excited to welcome Kris to the show. Okay. Welcome, Kris, and thank you so much for joining me.

Kris Skaletski: I'm very happy to be here today. Thank you for inviting me.

Nicola Cantan: Fantastic. So first, I’d love if you could tell us just a little about you. I’ve

told people about what you do at KiddyKeys, but just a bit about your background maybe and how you came to teaching, how you're up?

Kris Skaletski: I come from, probably like many teachers, a very musical background. I

was born on a very small family farm in a little town of population of 536. And I’m very fortunate that because I came from a musical family, there was a strong arts culture even in our small little farming community, so it was almost expected that you would take and participate in piano lessons.

I always wanted a horse, personally. I tell the story often that I wanted a horse. My older sister, Lynn, wanted a piano. And she won out; we got a piano and my father jokingly put it. I saw a horse outside the front door and said that, "Daddy, that was our horse." It turns out they were wise to get a piano because it took me a little while to appreciate the fact that I had piano lessons. I fought it for many, many years.

My parents met in a music event as well so I think I count by music through my genetic upbringing and as well as the externally environmental factors and I think that that was a big part of where I came from. And then eventually, it wasn't planned, somebody asked if I would teach their child piano lessons. And I thought, “Well, absolutely.” That’s something I can do and I started teaching piano. So not a very auspicious beginning to my piano teaching career but when I look back, I think that all roads were certainly leading to that point when I eventually realized that that was what the sign was telling me to do.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Absolutely. I think a lot of teachers are that way that they sort of

meander through various paths and then they arrive at teaching and realized that was where they were supposed to be.

Kris Skaletski: Sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt.

Nicola Cantan: No. Go ahead.

Kris Skaletski: All those stops along the way, I mean, I worked in retail, I worked in customer service, I worked in an accounting department, I went to college as well. But I think all of those stops along the way taught me the value of customer service, treating my piano parent clients also. They were all important; I’d give none of them up.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. That’s fantastic. So when did preschoolers fit into the equation?

Was that; was one of the first students you were asked to teach a preschooler? Or when did you arrive at teaching young students?

Kris Skaletski: Well, I am older and so back then, people always ask what age is the

ideal age for a student to begin lessons and it was second grade. It would be, at least for us locally, that was maybe 8 or 9 years old. So no, my first students weren’t preschoolers. In fact, that wasn’t even in the realm of teaching back then. I know that there were programs that existed but they didn’t exist in my world here, locally.

So my first student was a second-grader. I remember just simply telling people, “Nope. They should wait until second grade,” which is funny for me to look back, right? 35 years later, how that world has just, it went down to first grade, and then it crept down to 5-year olds, and then it crept to 4-year olds, and now we’re talking 2 and 2 ½ and 3-year olds taking lessons.

So, it’s a whole perspective of time, isn’t it, how much it changes. And as teachers, we really have to either roll along with that and understand that it exists and find a way to work with them; the primers of that world, or say, “That’s not my world and this is where I will stay because that’s not my students.” So, no, not all. Preschoolers were not taking piano lessons back when I started teaching.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. So when did you get into that area, then? When did you first start

exploring teaching young students? Or did it gradually creep down, as you were saying, the general trend went?

Kris Skaletski: So the trend in lessons crept it down, where my focus on preschool

music, which was more with a pre-piano focus than actual piano lessons because that’s really more of a KiddyKeys, let's say piano prep was when those young piano, 2, 2 ½ to 3-year olds, the younger siblings of my students and other people locally started asking for lessons for their young children. And I really couldn’t make a decision at that point. If that was really where I wanted to go, then I want to go into one-on-one preschool lessons with literally a 2 ½, a 3-year old, a 3 ½ or 4-year old, 4

½-year old. Or did I see my teaching strategy going in a different direction?

And it was at that moment that I chose to go into more of the group format, that would be a piano prep program because I really believe strongly in developmental; the developmental needs of a child outwing their need to sit to practice and perform. And I’m not saying performing as in getting up at a recital, I’m talking more about that need to sit in a bench and have a home practice. So my steerage didn’t go into preschool one-on-one lessons, if you will. My wanted to having group classes and it was born on that local need; people coming then and asking for something like that.

And I knew that other programs existed. First of all, I believe little children could learn. The takeaway from this shouldn’t be that they aren’t capable. I always say children can’t surprise me; they can impress me. But I believe that they can and that’s why they impress me but they don’t surprise me with what they can learn. So my belief isn’t based on the thought that they can’t take piano lessons, mine is based on the fact that they've got a lot of time to practice and sit on the bench and learn songs in a specific trajectory that's geared towards them, learning piece after piece after piece.

I felt that I could give them all of the foundation and let it be very creative-based about self-expression, improvising and letting them move and explore and play while they learn to play, if you will, before they have to take the formal steps. So that’s kind of where my mind was; it was not in a formal lesson and even that has evolved. So, initially, it was group classes and as that; age has wafted down and people definitely want lessons for their 3-year old or 3 ½-year old or 4-year old, I found that we had to marry and adapt our curriculum a bit to work alongside methods that existed for those that really do want that child to be on the piano. And does that kind of mirror what you’ve seen also? Although, you’re much younger than me.

Nicola Cantan: In terms of the age moving down, yes, for sure. And preschool lessons

are still very much not the norm here, so I'm quite unusual actually for teaching students. I teach from 3 ½ basically, up. So that's actually still pretty unusual here. There are group music program but they're very much not even piano prep. The general, the more normal thing would be to do a music and movement thing, maybe, at that age.

But even after that, there's not a lot until they're 7. Like, that's still the advice that's given and that's what I would have said when I started teaching, which is quite a while ago, too. But I would have said, yeah, 7. They can start with 7. I never; just because it was standard advice that you gave, you know?

Kris Skaletski: You're right. And I think that it must have been tied to the skill of

reading; reading, reading comprehension because that's about where that measure gets in school. And many methods now; I co-authored Roadtrip! with Jennifer Eklund and we took all of that reading component out of the books. All of that is in a separate teaching guide because there is not this preconceived notion that a child has to be able to read any longer, right? I think that was; they needed to understand what the directions were on the page.

Nicola Cantan: Well, yeah. Or that they weren't capable of note reading because they

couldn't read English or their first language, and therefore, they couldn't take lessons because lessons were just reading. I don't know. I think we've come a long way since then, anyway.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah, we definitely have, and for a good reason, right? Like, why do they;

why do children receive a second language so well when they're young. Well, I think music is no different, right, and we all know that, right? I mean, that's kind of standard knowledge; it’s a language.

Nicola Cantan: Exactly. Yes, definitely. So where do you land these days on the whole

group versus private debate? Do you still think group is best but some parents want the private? Or is there an age where you say, "Okay. If they're over 4 or over 5, then private is better." Where do you land on that?

Kris Skaletski: Me, personally? I still land in a group department because I really like

the social interaction of a group. And I like mixed age groups. I like to put a 2 ½ or 3-year old with a 4 or 5-year old if the 5-year old never take lessons because I think that they can be encouraged to model what we would do in our day-to-day lives, right?

If we're looking at a group of piano teachers, we don't put all of the 30-year old teachers together, all the 35-year old teachers together; we're positive, pure, mentors for each other. And I have seen 2 ½-year olds with better fine motor skills than some 4 ½ and 5-year olds. So they develop mentally wherever they happen to be.

So my camp is still, I like them in group and I can always adapt and include rote teaching materials to expound upon to challenge them. Again, multi-age, if I have a 3-year old that's ready to learn a song, they'll get a rote piece and they can learn a song. But I can do; everything I would do in a piano lesson that they get the social structure of a group and that have it leaning towards music and movement, which I think is just at the core of any preschool class.

Nicola Cantan: Yes, for sure. So how long are your lessons then and how many kids in a

group?

Kris Skaletski: So, I haven't taught for a number of years because, at a certain point, I stopped teaching, and I always tell teachers would be asked this question. Everyone's got their sweet stop. It's like teaching piano, right? For some, a 6-year old is as young as they want to go. And I used to teach elementary school and I've had classes of 25 kindergarteners, so for me, having 10 or 12 children in a class isn’t a big deal. But I think the sweet spot is probably anywhere from, depending on the children, anywhere from four to eight because...

Nicola Cantan: That’s what I always say as well, yeah, four to eight.

Kris Skaletski: Exactly right. You can have four little rowdy gents in front of you and

that’s plenty.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah.

Kris Skaletski: Right? You know exactly what I’m talking about. And then you could have this group of six or eight that they’re just totally focused on the academics behind them and they’re just [Inaudible 00:13:02] developmentally. So I would say, maybe six to eight is my happy spot. I like to see a good amount for social interaction. I think again, that’s such a big part of; they have their whole lives to sit on a piano bench by themselves. I also like group piano lessons for that reason, I think I just like the social structure.

So, I like the groups and you just have to temper it, right? As the lessons have continued to evolve, it’s about interjecting; I’m definitely interjecting and seeing teachers interjecting more piano into those lessons. And as for time, I was a 30-minute girl. I know people like 45 minutes.

Nicola Cantan: [Crosstalk 00:13:42]

Kris Skaletski: I know that. But I like; well, first of all, part of my life was based on

scheduling. So most of my teaching was done remotely and if I was in a childcare centre or a preschool, I had to stick to a half-hour session because I had 3-year olds coming in or 4-year olds or 5-year olds. I also like them wanting more when they leave. I want it to be like, “Oh, class is over.” I'm like, “Yeah, that’s right. We’re coming back next week and this is what we’re going to do,” and that’s okay and leave them on the high notes of us wanting more and kind of simply moving to the lesson.

And if; I personally must have got into a comfort point where I could do a song introduction, do a fine motor review, review the concept, introduce new concepts, do a gross motor activity and then we close class out. So for me, 30 minutes is a lesson time.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's interesting. I’ve certainly taught in 30 minutes and it

is doable with preschoolers but I always prefer that little bit of extra time.

Kris Skaletski: It makes sense.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. So what stuff do you need or do you advise teachers to have?

They need a piano, or maybe they need a piano or do they want multiple pianos and what other things would you have them get? Rhythm instruments; that kind of stuff?

Kris Skaletski: Sure. So one piano is all I think is necessary because they’re going to

take turns; in my particular group classes, and explore the piano. So I encourage them either to be an audience and they’re going to listen. And I do; I like to call it conversational teaching. So we got one keyboard; one child is improvising. I would say, “Johnny is using his right hand, figures number 2 and 3 and he’s playing some low sounds. Oh, those are long sounds. We may call that a half note. I think Johnny is playing forte now.” So, I like to have one keyboard because it allows for that focused activity while a child is improvising.

Now, if you have that group of rowdy gents that was mentioned earlier, they might be working on one of their activity sheets while the child is taking their turns to improvise. But again, I can conversationally teach.

So I think one keyboard or piano is a must-have. If we’re going to be a piano prep kind of program, there’s going to be a piano, right?


Kris Skaletski: I think rhythm instruments, hands down; they’re a must-have. But that’s

small, child-size, certainly indestructible ones because we want them up and moving and marching and that’s another great way to explore sound while they're playing an instrument. So I think rhythm instruments are at the top of the list. So we’ve covered instruments.

Games. Now, to me, like the last few games that a game, my first priority as a game is for teaching and for learning and fun is the wonderful byproduct of that. So I very much like teaching games because you can have fun playing, but I want to make sure we’re learning while we’re doing this. So I like games; I especially like games that get them up and moving because it does the whole two birds one stone thing. Movement is so important, so if we can have on anything that’s physical at the same time of a game, that’s a big win.

I like stories. I like children to have the visual component. I’m not sure about you, but here in the United States, it used to be called Theory of Multiple Intelligences in Multiple Learning Styles. And, oh, I know right? And you probably see residuals of that; it’s the oral learner, the visual learner, the tactile-kinesthetic learner, and those were great buzz words.

And now it’s called, more often, differentiation, and that is just applying an idea in multiple ways. So for a child that does like to something to see visually, that’s where I like a storybook. I like them to be able to see a picture that teaches them as well and then merit to words. So for that child, for their differentiation, I'd like to see a story.

I like to see a good collection of music because music is listening, right? We want them to hear high sounds, low sounds and to be exposed in different tempos. So I think good music is at the core of a good music and movement program, right? And instruments and a piano and visual things like stories; and then, manipulatives; things that they can hold, that they can move around, staffs that they draw and markers, chips that they can move on their own staves, things that allow them to explore creatively that are particular to that child themselves.

So if I give them a staff, a clock staff, a laminated staff, and I give them, like red; we call them poker chips or bingo chips or plastic notes. Giving

them the freedom; anything that gives them the freedom to create and express their own musical thoughts. And if they draw a staff first and it has 20 lines, I'd like to joke that it looks like early Gregorian chant. I always think, “Well, perhaps that child is going to be the next inventor of what becomes standard notation.” Well, you just never know, right?

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, I know.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah. And I also think, why should they think that the only music that

they can play is what, somebody buys them a straw and gives them one day. So I want them to very much feel that they are the creators; that they are the creators, that their music does to me, if you will. And any tool that I could put in front of them that allows them to explore and create to me is, whether it’s homemade or something that is purchased, to me is a critical tool.

Nicola Cantan: Absolutely. Okay, that’s great. But that’s not an expensive collection, is

it? It’s not a huge investment. They already have a piano, most teachers, but they’re teaching piano lessons, anyway. Maybe they need to pick up a few rhythm instruments and maybe a few things to move about but none of it is expensive. Most of that could be found at a Dollar Store, the chips and stuff like that.

Kris Skaletski: Definitely. It doesn’t have to be expensive. What is it? You give a child a

paper box and you they turn it into a [Crosstalk 00:19:29]

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So let's talk about the business side of things a little bit. What do you recommend in terms of the fees, especially since you're talking about group lessons? Do you have any kind of standard formula that you could share with us or any advice that you give to teachers about that?

Kris Skaletski: Sure. I typically say that for us locally in Midwest; this is a relatively

conservative part of the country, about half of the private piano lesson rate is a group rate. So just to make an easy number, if a person locally charge $10 per 30-minute lesson, they are, per child, 30-minute class rate would be $10. That seems to fall in line, not very much differently; demographically throughout the country. So about half of the private piano rate or I would assume 45-minutes to 45-minutes again would be the rate. Pretty straightforward to figure out that way.

And another thing I suggest to teachers is to find out what is locally going on. What are your dance classes charging? What is gymnastics charging? This is very different and this is more education-based, at least for our purposes at KiddyKeys, I say it shouldn’t be charged less than that, certainly. I feel it should be charged a little higher end than that but about half of the private piano lessons.

Nicola Cantan: Just to clarify there; so did you say $20 for 30-minute private and then

and $10 for. Yeah.

Kris Skaletski: For the group. Now, if somebody is doing private KiddyKeys, which teachers do, I always counsel them to charge exactly what they’re charging.

Nicola Cantan: Absolutely.

Kris Skaletski: Lesson, right?

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. It’s your time. It doesn't matter if the student is smaller. And

anyway, they're going to take more energy, so you would need at least the same fee, for sure.

Kris Skaletski: I agree with you 100%.

Nicola Cantan: Okay. Let’s get into the nitty-gritty of it then. Did you have a structure

for planning your lessons? Did you have a particular way you laid out your plans when you were first working on this, especially when you're getting started, and not so much planning them for other teachers, but when you were first establishing these lessons? Did you have a structure that worked for you for actually laying it out? And how much detail did you go into with the plans because teachers are always curious about the topic of lesson planning?

Kris Skaletski: Great. So when KiddyKeys first started, we had 30-minute classes, and

then we tried 40-minute classes, and then we tried 45-minute classes. There was a lot of experimentation with time, so it’s funny that you mention; we settled on 30. And the lesson plans we’re not nearly as tight as they are now, they were loosely based on my classroom teaching. We’ll say that because I had 3s and 4s in my elementary school where I was teaching. So, I knew we needed to start with a song and I knew an opening song was important and a closing song because any child likes to feel that comfort of the order of their life.


Kris Skaletski: So by keeping things; this is our opening song and this is our closing.

And I knew that there needed to be something gross motor in there somewhere and then the rest of it was derived in or came from the wanting to a teaching in the course of it. So it started by laying out the trajectory of the concepts and looked at what a typical first-year of piano lesson was and those became the order of the concepts. So starting with keyboard geography; high, low; then piano and forte.

And just like you would; most primer books start in, that’s the identical trajectory that was like, “Okay, this is [Inaudible 00:23:06] will follow.” So they were just sheets of paper that I thought it would be fun to take the children outside and listen to music, listen to the birds chirping that was music. I think I went to a hippie phase [Crosstalk 00:23:19] while it became more of the; probably took a year of experimentation to see what was always going to work and what needed to always be there.

And eventually, it became, the plans that exist now, which again, if I look at them, it looked very much like my school lesson plans were; was that the opening song and a review of what was done; I have a theory about review. And always a fine motor, always an introduction of a new concept, always a gross motor, the activity sheet that would go along that gives them that visual into reading something at home and then the closing song.

So there’s always those components; every single lesson has that. And then I always tell teachers, the development of each of them is what determines what’s going to happen and fast. Because you shouldn’t stop teaching something simply because it’s hanging around to the next item. It’s not; teaching isn’t a checklist. Teaching where they are and wanting; what that teachable moment is going to be for them. And if they are enjoying and participating in one of the activities, I would stop them just because there’s three more activities I want to get to that day; that’s not teaching; at least to me. So, they’re much tighter now, but they were very, they were very willy-nilly in the beginning to figure out what the plan should be.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. But you’ve kept those different aspects of the welcome song and I

think that's so true. It's so important to have some predictability especially since little minds and little fingers can't follow time at all in the same way we can.

Kris Skaletski: They can’t. So when they hear that opening song they know class is

starting, Ms Kris is ready to go and I need to settle myself and be ready, too. Or if they’re involved in some activity and class needs to be over, that signal of that closing song gives them that oral cue; and so much of this is an oral cue, right? That class is done, I need to put the pen down, I need to put the instrument back, Ms Kris has moved to the door, she’s singing the song, my class time is done. So, yeah. They can’t read unless they have symbols on a board or a poster board they’re following. Theirs is a sound cue; so a good cue for a beginning and an end, I think.

Even for a piano lessons, if somebody was doing a preschool piano lesson, having to always do the same thing when you start give you that oral cue when the time is wrapping up. That gives a child comfort and confidence in their day, in their schedule, in their life. And let’s face it; they’re expected to roll all the time with everything. All new; every class is new, every day is new. Sometimes I think we as adults have a harder time rolling with things than little children do.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. But they can get a bit lost and that question that I think frustrates

many teachers because, you know, when kids ask, “Oh, are we done yet?” And a lot of preschoolers will ask that and it’s not because they’re not having fun or they don't like the lesson. It's because they literally have no idea where we are in time and space.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah. We do. We tend to hear that and we think, “Oh, no.”

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. “I’m failing.”

Kris Skaletski: They just want to know. “No, we’ve got a few more activities,” or “We have

three more things.” So I didn’t think for teachers that would have a visual cue and they could literally move down the line if they wanted to. But say in a class or a lesson, they had four, three, four, five things they wanted to do, if they had a visual board that the child could physically move it down or maybe the child has some control and picks the order of things, that’s good for a child to see that either it’s something visual or something oral so that they know what’s coming.

Nicola Cantan: And that’s exactly what I have in my studio, little pictures that we set up

by cells and they can see, “Okay, the game is coming up later. I can’t wait for it,” because I could see these things are in front of it.

Kris Skaletski: They know what’s coming. Yeah, exactly.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, exactly. So many teachers, when we talk about preschool lessons, and especially, you’ll see this around Facebook groups and stuff like that; when preschool teaching comes up, many teachers will claim that they're just not ready, still, even though the trend has maybe moved down to the younger ages. But many teachers will still try and say, “I just don't think this 4-year old is ready for lessons. I don't think they can concentrate for enough time.” And I think we’ve already hinted how that's not an issue in your classes, Kris, but have you ever found the attention spans to be a problem? And if you don’t think they’re a problem, why not?

Kris Skaletski: Well, it’s probably less of a problem for me because I would have had

them in a group class and we have that. But I have had 4-year olds in piano lessons because the nature of the circumstances were that’s what the parent wanted to have. And so, I have seen children that I would say I felt were not ready for lessons. But I think every child can be given a piano lesson if you alter the format to meet what that child needs.

It doesn’t have to be; let’s just stick with the 30-minutes, if you will; it doesn’t have to be 15 minutes on the bench, 15 minutes off the bench. It doesn’t have to be any ratio of one of the other. Maybe it’s 5 minutes on the bench and it’s 25 minutes away on the bench; off the bench.

I think it’s finding the happy medium of what that child needs that sometimes has very little to do with playing at the piano. So if it’s; and I hope that makes sense. What I’m saying is, in essence, they could be having, what to us, maybe as teachers, would be more of a music and movement class with some applied piano time. I think it’s changing the perception of what it’s supposed to look like, so I would never say “NO,” to a parent. If they insisted, “No, I need a one-on-one piano lesson for my 4-year old,” I would probably discourage lessons for him because I think they belong in KiddyKeys.

So if I’m believing that, if I believe they belong in a group, I think I would have to stick with that. If somebody else wants to take a 3 and a 3 ½-year old, and they can and they should. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t know how to teach a 3 ½-year old; no, I just would prefer them to be in a social group. So, I think that it comes down to tailoring and adjusting our adult perception, and with adult perception and the child’s [Inaudible 00:29:41], right?


Kris Skaletski: And just because the parent has asked for a piano lesson doesn’t mean it needs to match what our lessons might look like with an 8 or a 7 or a 6-year old; it’s not going to. And anybody that tries to do that, you know, I see them and they’re like, “Oh, it didn’t go well. It was horrible. They were all over the place.” They’re being a child. And the changes in what has to happen with the child, the changes in what has to happen with our perception in reality in teaching a child.

Nicola Cantan: So, so true. It’s just a case of, yes, transplanting a 3 or 4-year old into a

9-year old lesson and going, “They can’t concentrate.”

Kris Skaletski: Yeah.

Nicola Cantan: Well, of course, they can’t concentrate. They’re not in the right environment. So, yes.

Kris Skaletski: When I see teachers do that, I always say, “Did they shake their wiggles

up?” Because little ones need to. And if you can’t get them moving, then, they’re not going to sit in the bench. They can’t; they’re just not developmentally capable of it. Get them up every three minutes and shake out their wiggles. Turn on some music. You get the benefit of an aerobics class yourself as part of the lesson in piano, right?

Nicola Cantan: So true.

Kris Skaletski: We have to teach these lessons.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Have you ever had students, Kris, in your

classes who wouldn’t follow your directions or wouldn't copy what you were doing, in particular? Because this is something where I’ve had particular students who; and I get them through this, eventually, but they're not interested in mimicking. Does that make sense? So they’re not interested in copying and that makes the rest of what you're doing so hard to teach a rote song, to teach them to sing something, to teach them to do an activity. If they're not interested in copying what you just did, it can be very hard.

Kris Skaletski: Oh, very hard. I have had plenty of those children. I think that actually,

one of the; I think classroom management even applies to piano lessons and that’s not a skill that we often see in pedagogy classes or even in a

piano lesson training. It’s still about classroom management. It’s about managing that child who doesn’t want to listen or who’s head is somewhere else.

I’ve seen plenty of them and my take on that is having good guidelines in place from the beginning that are: we keep our hands to ourselves, we won’t touch another person with our instruments or giving them our seat on the floor, whether it’s a large coloured dot or a carpet square so they understand where home base is. But as long as they are not hurting someone else, distracting someone else, if they need to be distracted, I don’t assume they’re not learning because they may not be doing what I'm doing.

Case in point. Bingo. Playing music bingo with little kids. Piano bingo, right?


Kris Skaletski: So the red chips are in the middle of the table and all the children have

their playing card and these nice, big symbols that I hold up. But invariably, there is a child that is taking the most beautiful red chips and they make the tower and they will build a beautiful tower on their bingo board. Now, I am holding up these cute, little pictures and I’m teaching and I’m talking, “Oh, this is a ball bouncing high, high sounds,” and they build a beautiful tower and, “Oh, Ms Kris, look at my tower,” and I celebrate the tower. Maybe they’re going to be an engineer one day. But invariably, they come back the next week and they have learned because they were listening to everything that I was saying.

So I don’t gauge that not copying back as not learning, they just maybe processing it differently than what it looks like the child next to them is processing. Or they could be on the red chip and they fill up every square on their bingo card and “Oh, Miss Kris it’s done.” “Fantastic, can you take them off and do it again?” “Yeah.” The whole idea; a master being sassy; I would call it sassy; damaging something, interrupting someone else’s learning and I’m okay with them not doing either copying or maybe…

Nicola Cantan: Doing exactly what’s prescribed.

Kris Skaletski: Exactly. Exactly what's prescribed. If it looks like they’re not paying

attention, I’m okay with that. I don’t need their attention, I just need them to be not bothering those around them because I assume that those are

turned on and they’re doing what they need to do to participate in that class.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, to be engaged.

Kris Skaletski: Beat, need to call it beat. But if they want to; that they just can’t wait to

get to the marching; that’s their thing. You know what? Their benefit in being that good listener and waiting or just not bothering the child is that I will let them be the leader first, then, because they would have done a good job at that point. So I know teachers use stickers, none of them ever have to do that. I think I would resort to it if I had to.

But yeah, haven’t we all have those children that when they walk out the door and all I can think, “Oh my gosh, I haven’t taught them anything in 30 minutes," right? "I taught them nothing. What would the parents think?” But then they come back next week and they learned. So again, that’s an adult perception, right?

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, I know it is totally the adult perception. Speaking of the parents

though, have you ever had a parent who was pushing for more progress than what’s happening or had some expectation of what they were going to be doing that wasn't happening? Or do you have a way of laying that out from the start so that they don't get the wrong idea?

Kris Skaletski: Well, you lay it out from the start. But like many parents, they miss;

sometimes, they miss that message and we all have those parents. I’m guilty of missing messages myself so I'm trying to be better about that, yes. And then, I remind them of what we discussed and I always try to assist their concerns because if they really feel that, Johnny again; it’s always Johnny; if they feel that Johnny would benefit from more piano time, I could integrate that. I can give Johnny a little rote piece and then I will follow up with the parents and say, "This is what I've given Johnny to work on," and invariably, if nothing happens within at home but they feel that I’ve challenged Johnny in the class, I put the ball in their court then to continue balancing the ball in between.

And then, that becomes; I’ve satisfied their need that they feel Johnny is capable, I can work that around. Because that usually comes down to piano; either they want them to have more little time or I can give Johnny a very basic little piece of a whole song based on C and Johnny’s supposed to practice at home. So yeah, I give them that, we work on it, and then I drop the ball on the parents' lap and say, “Can you

gather something you can practice with Johnny at home during the week?” And they’re satisfied with that.

Nicola Cantan: So apart from to appease parents, do you ever assign pieces for

practice at home? Or do you avoid the topic of practice at this level?

Kris Skaletski: For Kiddeykeys purposes, or straight KiddyKeys classes, we won’t talk about practice.


Kris Skaletski: Now, I’ll go personally. There are teachers that include those students in

their recitals. And sorry; little shameless plug here; so I wrote Piano Playground recently [Crosstalk 00:36:46], but because we’re talking about so much. But because teachers were; because as time has gone on, they've spent a couple of years since they taught Kiddeykeys, that line has continued to click pretty down again and now they want them playing in their recital, they want to see them doing something, so Piano Playground was born completely of that need for really good rote pieces that we could move those children into and have them have recital pieces because that line continues to shade a little bit, doesn’t it?

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. No, for sure. I think, with the parents, I haven’t found that their

expectations, at least where I am, are that high for what their child is going to do. I think it's normally the teacher who expects it and feels that the parent is expecting something that they’re maybe not. So sometimes, we just need to look at ourselves. But yes, I haven’t checked that Piano Playground but I have used the Roadtrip! books for this very reason because they’re fantastic and the duets are great for recitals.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah, thank you. And I think it’s what each teacher; it doesn’t have to be

Piano Playground, it doesn’t have to be Roadtrip!. There are; it can be just going into a new store and printing out some little basic song on C and D and having them do that. I think there are ways that we can amp that up and I think you're exactly right, sometimes, we as teachers do it to ourselves. It’s like the child that sees a song, and we'll use Roadtrip! as example. There are several songs included that are in G flat major. We don’t need to explain to a child that that’s G flat major.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, exactly. Don’t open the can of worms, like that’s not necessary.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah, they’re just going to use these black keys, “Yeah, okay. No

problem.” We tend to over-explain and we want to over-explain and we

justify almost to their parents and they’re not looking for that and children are certainly not looking for over-explanations; they don’t even know the explanation exists.

So sometimes, I would say to teachers, “It’s okay to expect what you want to happen but to be prepared to accept the goodness that’s there instead of looking for deeper and more and knowing that you can accommodate." There's lots of little children playing in recitals and they steal the show, don’t they?

Nicola Cantan: They do, no matter what they play. They could play a single C and they

would win the whole day. I mean, they can get away with anything.

Kris Skaletski: When I was teaching elementary school, I had the kindergarteners and every year, we put on this wonderful spring program and I worked on that program so many hours. And one; are you young enough or old enough to remember the Macarena Dance?

Nicola Cantan: Everyone still knows the Macarena; don’t worry.

Kris Skaletski: So I had the kindergarteners and there was one little kindergartener

that, due to circumstances out of his control, he just; he missed school. But he; well, when he was there, he was one of those that didn't listen. And when they got on the stage and the music came on and they started to do the Macarena; these cute little kindergarteners. But who would everybody notice? The little ham who hadn’t been practicing and he was all over the place with his Macarena and everyone focused on him.

And it was in that moment that I realized that teachers tend to work really hard on their expectations on ourselves. We expect perfection, and while I think we should, you know what? In that moment, I realized that, you know what? He was having a great time, the audience was having a good time, the parents were watching their own children and I was the one who needed to alter my perception of what those parents behind me wanted to see.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Yeah, I know. We put so much pressure on ourselves. You’re totally

right. And yes, we would never put that kind of pressure on someone else, on one of our students; we would never expect this perfection. But yet, for our own teaching, we expect it.

Kris Skaletski: I don't know about you, but during my piano recitals my toes will be curled in my shoes.

Nicola Cantan: Oh, yeah.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah, right?

Nicola Cantan: I always say that I get far more nervous than most of the kids do.

Kris Skaletski: Exactly. Maybe it’s because we want so much for them and maybe more

than anything else, it's not perfection for a bad reason. We just want them to do their best.


Kris Skaletski: That’s okay.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah, I know. We just want to provide a good experience from them but

sometimes, yes, we need to sit back, let them do their own Macarena in their own style.

Kris Skaletski: I can still, up to this day; I can picture him.

Nicola Cantan: That's fantastic. Yeah. Awesome. So after KiddyKeys, is there a certain

age where students graduate from KiddyKeys-style teaching and would you delay reading up until that; or not delay reading; it’s not the right way to say it; but would you wait to do proper “reading” up until that point?

Kris Skaletski: Well, actually, we include reading in KiddyKeys.

Nicola Cantan: Okay.

Kris Skaletski: So they learn up G and then treble C D E F G. So we don’t delay it, in the

first year they learn about the treble clef, the bass clef and middle C; so treble G, bass up and middle C. I don’t believe in shying away from teaching them. Again, I think they can learn the language and if they can understand the geography of the piano, they can find those things.

Well, we don’t get into reading in terms of, “Here’s a piece of music. Now, I want you to decode it and read it.” I’m more inclined to go on a rote department and we've learned about C; this is where I use with a song

on C. So KiddyKeys is generally with 2 and 1/2 to 4 or 5, and sometimes 6-year olds that just are a piano lesson experience is not who they are yet. I think that by the time they’re 4 and 5, they can start moving now with; especially with the materials that are available, right? And the books that I would have used growing up. I think I've used John Thompson.

Nicola Cantan: Me, too.

Kris Skaletski: Used these little fingers to play.


Kris Skaletski: [Inaudible 00:42:57] to use with a 4-year old and a 5-year old. There’s

enough options now that are written with them. So I still see, I like to see a child begin at 4 or 5, but I can see the benefits of getting them on the piano more at like, say 4 or 5. I don't want to rush them into that. They've got their life to do piano lessons. We want them to do it for their life, right?

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. And we want to take the time to build that fantastic foundation of

this really enjoyable, lasting experience, whatever that is for them, so that they do continue to play for the rest of their life.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah. Exactly. Or, you know what? I think it should come down to when

their fine motor skills are ready. Because if they aren’t able to manage; we're always working their good handshake and finger numbers and fine motor skills. But if they’re not ready to be there yet, I’d like to see them; their lessons be less about that and more suitable foundation so that when they do get ready for that, the language is nothing to them, they understand the language.

Children can learn anything. We're going to explain 8-notes to a 4-year old [Inaudible 00:44:04] I can explain 8-notes to a child. [Crosstalk 00:44:09] The language isn’t the problem with that, it's to where they are physically, right? It’s where; are their hands ready, can they use those fingers? And If we're going to put on the lessons, we better be prepared then to adapt and focus may be on finger 2 and 3 if that’s where; if that song still indicated to use 1 2 3 4 5, it’s okay to not play what’s on the page. You shouldn’t. Just their right hand; and you need to adapt that lesson to the child.

Nicola Cantan: Yes. And is that what you're doing when you are teaching them rote songs and things, do you just let the child choose which finger they’re using? Like, whichever one they naturally go for it; they use that one? Or do you tell them to use finger 2 or?

Kris Skaletski: I will initially ask them to try using a fingering that’s indicated but if that

is not a fingering they can use, or I may even say to them, “What finger would you choose?” I try both ways. “This is written for finger 2 of your right and your left hand. Let’s try it like that. Now, which finger would you choose to use?” Because I think children should get a choice. They’re more comfortable with that. “Okay. Now, you chose that one. Now, let’s try finger 5 of your right and your left hand,” because a person is looking to try those things.

But yeah, I would give them some latitude, I would give them the balance. “This is what’s indicated, let’s try that. Does it work? Let’s adapt and do with those.”

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Fantastic. I’d love if you could tell us a bit about how you see the

role of singing in your lessons because you've mentioned the opening song and the closing song. And I'm wondering, first of all, are you singing all of the time, throughout the whole lesson, or is it in bits and pieces? And are the kids singing along with you when you're doing that?

Kris Skaletski: Bits and pieces. Songs, like games, are for learning; fun is the byproduct

and the children are singing along. So all of the songs; at least for KiddyKeys purposes; are rhyming and they are largely piggyback. So piggyback is thinking Twinkle, Twinkle Star and changing...

Nicola Cantan: A rhyme; okay.

Kris Skaletski: So, on many familiar songs that have music-based verses. So they’re

instrumented, but they’re meant to further the learning. So we do have the opening song and then some of the finger plays are done in song, and then the concept. So every; when we did high and low that has a song that goes with them.

So, I like them vocalizing, I like them hearing; that’s a great way to discover pitch. They’re not going to silly sing on pitch but they can; it’s good for working on their inner beat. So we use songs to further the lessons for teaching and then to go along with, too.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Okay. So you’ve answered my question about pitch because a lot of teachers will fret a little bit when a student of whatever age is not singing, is not finding pitch. And my solution is always basically, just keep singing; that's the solution. You just keep doing it.

Kris Skaletski: Yeah, that’s like developmental, right? They’re not going to necessarily

sing on pitch. I think that’s an unrealistic expectation. Some of them will, some of them won’t, some of them may never. Are they singing along and having a good time? The rhythm of the song? If that’s the case, you’re taking away their knowledge of the rhythm, right? Feeling it; maybe not necessarily the notation of it but certainly feeling it. So yeah, I don’t get hung up on pitch at all.


Kris Skaletski: I’m singing along and I will sing on pitch but I’m no professional singer

myself.

Nicola Cantan: Nor am I. Yeah. And what about a kid who is just incredibly shy and will not make a peep when you're singing? Do you ask them to sing, encourage them in some way or do you just let them at it?

Kris Skaletski: Let them be.


Kris Skaletski: I think that they are where they need to be and they’re doing what they

need to do. And I would never force or I certainly encourage everyone to sing together but if the child isn’t singing, then that’s what they need to do and that’s how they need to take in a lesson.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Absolutely. Same as building the tower with the tokens, right? It’s

the same thing. That’s their way of taking it in; let them at it.

Kris Skaletski: That’s right. Exactly.

Nicola Cantan: For sure. Okay, fantastic. I would love it if you could talk us through maybe briefly what a first lesson might look like in KiddyKeys? Like, how would it actually start and some of the activities that you would do in the lesson just to give people a sense of what it actually feels like and looks like in practice?

Kris Skaletski: Sure. So the first lesson, there’s a lot of introduction because it’s all new to a child, right? They haven’t been in the class, they don’t know that this is the beginning, this is the end. So I always would start by teaching them the action to the KiddyKeys song and then we would sing it together. And part of that is clapping and singing because we’re always working on keeping a steady beat and it gives them something to do at the end with their bodies. So we would start with that.

And as a means of ice breaking, we would have each child introduce themselves because we want them to feel comfortable, getting to know our names. Our names are important, our names are important to us, our names are important, so we want to acknowledge their name. And then we would move always into something fine motor-based so we would do a couple of finger-based that are fun. I’d like to do things that are ice breakers that get them moving and something with maybe a surprise action that they can laugh and release because they may be a little bit nervous, which some are nervous the first time.

I like to start writing with either a composer; my composer of choice is to teach them about Mozart. And so, we talk about singing earlier; we put the Mozart song to a Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star. “Listen close and we will start. Mozart standing, give a yah.” I like school concepts where we spell his name, “M-O-Z-A-R-T, Mozart shared music with me. Listen close and we will start. Mozart standing, give a yah. M-O-Z-A-R-T Mozart. Mozart, Mozart.” There you go.

Nicola Cantan: Very cute.

Kris Skaletski: So we haven’t touched on this. A big part; focus of what we do is not just

music but school skills and life skills. So if I would teach and introduce them to Mozart, I want to teach them how to spell his name and we have a visual tool for doing that. See, that’s my lesson. That’s what I’m going to do. We’re talking about Mozart. I want to read the story about Mozart that introduces them to Mozart and his sister Nannerl, and his terrier dog, Bimperl, and a little bit about their life to bring Mozart to life for them.

If I’ve done; instead of lesson on high and low, we’re going to get the piano out at that time with the keyboard and I would have them come up after I explain it to them or show them and have them each improvise a piece on high and low sounds. Same thing, if I’ve done Mozart, I would have them come up and improvise a piece and create a piece like

Mozart did when he was writing songs and when he was their age; if he was 4 years old, and children love that.

Then I get up; always up and moving. If they have a lot of wiggles at that first class, we’ll move my kids way up to the front. If you can’t pick a wiggle, if they got to wiggle, you got to wiggle. And then, there’s no point; teachers telling me like, “They’re all over the place.” I just want to say, “Just get them up and get them moving.” So they would wiggle and then we always have an activity sheet that we do for Mozart; it’s to find the letter M O Z A R T in a little letter search.

For high and low, we want them to see an image on the concept of high so they’re getting that spatial connection. They also have a song that they do that teaches them reaching high and reaching low; so we have that very kinesthetic activity. And then, usually class is over and we have our little closing song that goes in there.

So depending on; every single concept has, I will always have a story I read. Every single concept has a song that we’re going to do and then that’s always the meet that’s in. The subsequent lessons are always review after the opening song. So we always review and review maybe one little thing; the high and low song or about Mozart’s spelling his name. And each week, we go back because, here’s my theory of review; if you don’t mind.

Nicola Cantan: Oh, yeah.

Kris Skaletski: Review leads to comfort and confidence. Comfort and confidence lead

to competence. Competence is the goal. It’s okay to review and review and review as long as we need to, to reach that end stage of competence.

Nicola Cantan: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. I have one

final question and that; I want you to imagine a teacher who is already teaching piano but they're just diving into maybe teaching three to five girls; they’ve never taught anyone below age 6 or 7 before. What tips would you give them and are there any mistakes; the common mistakes maybe that you think they could avoid?

Kris Skaletski: My tip number one is that it’s okay to be silly and they should be a little

silly. We have to be a bit of an entertainer. That would be number one. That would be; don’t be afraid to be silly, make faces, make funny

sounds, use puppets; use whatever it takes to engage the child in the lesson.

Have a plan, have a backup plan and then be prepared to deviate from that plan. If the teachable moment gets you stuck somewhere else or if they’re not into something after 30 seconds, that it’s okay to abandon ship.

That whole idea of the adult perception; that “perfect imperfection.” It is not going to look perfect. Accept that and you will relieve yourself off much of the stress of teaching little children. They just want to learn, they just want to hang out, they either want to have fun or they want to play while they’re learning to play. For them, to function in a class that you’re okay with that perfect imperfection that’s coming.

Those are mistakes I made. I thought it should; there’s nothing like being agreeing first year teacher and thinking things are going to go on certain way.

Nicola Cantan: They’re not.

Kris Skaletski: They’re going to school in a hurry that that is not; that’s not what’s

happening. Who’s really in charge? Yeah, you find that in a hurry, right? I think that it’s important to look at each child as an individual and measure success only for that child. It’s dangerous to compare them all to each other or assume that developmentally, there’s a line across the board that’s based on H, it doesn’t exist.

And each child deserves to be seen for who they are and where they are. So I think that’s really important. But be okay with; let them wiggle, let them get up and move, plan to roll things and try not to see them through the eyes of the adults; see them through the eyes of a child.

Nicola Cantan: Wonderful. That’s such fantastic advice and thank you so much again

for joining me for this interview. I know tons of teachers will get a lot out of it. Tell us where they can find about KiddyKeys and more about you, Kris?

Kris Skaletski: Sure. We have a website, www.kiddykeys.com; that’s k-i-d-d-y-k-e-y-s, and

they can reach me through the website or they’re free to send me an email certainly; [email protected]. And I’m also on Facebook, so you’re welcome to find me and I’d be happy to answer any questions. And

http://www.kiddykeys.com/

certainly, I think we all do better when we’re supportive of each other, so happy for them to reach out and be happy to connect with them.

Nicola Cantan: Thank you, Kris. I’ll chat to you soon.

I so hope you enjoy that interview with Kris today. We have two more interview shows on the way over the next two weeks with Carina Busch from Germany and Lyndel Kennedy from Australia. I’ll see you back here next week for another episode of the Vibrant Music Teaching Podcast.

If you'd like to grab my new book, you can pick it up by going to playfulpreschoolpiano.com and clicking on whichever link suits you for where to purchase it.

V M T 0 6 9 : K R I S SK A L E T SK I O N T E A C H I N G ...Kris+S… · Vibrant, vibrant, vibrant music teaching. Proven and practical tips, strategies and ideas for Music Teachers.

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