Ukedchat Archive 07 October 2010

8/8/2019 Ukedchat Archive 07 October 2010

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username time status

taffattack 19:57

RT @CliveBuckley: RT @TheNewHead: RT @wjputt: #ukedchat Please re-tweet TeachMeet 13th Oct in Holywell http://www.teachmeet.org.uk/

#tmhhs Come & present!

dailydenouement 19:58#ukedchat RT @jamesmichie: RT @TheHeadsOffice Your views on schoolbehaviour are needed here http://bit.ly/bE7Qfd

OhLottie 19:58My first #ukedchat :) We're just starting to use APP for Numeracy. I'mhopeful, but not sure about the best way to log evidence. Post-its?!

colport 19:59

Welcome to #ukedchat - Tonight focus "Does APP work? What other

formative assessment tools do you use? Do they work?"

BryanPlumb 20:00RT @Julian3576: #ukedchat Assessment needs to be seen as integral to thelearner, not just a tick box to measure learning.

ukedchat 20:00Please remember to use the hashtag #ukedchat to have your commentsincluded within the archive

DrAshCasey 20:00

@sh1916 #ukedchat can I suggest that you contact @Sport_ed who is using

a lot of iPad apps in his teaching.

cleverfiend 20:00@OhLottie who are you assessing for? why evidence? why the obsessionwith banks of evidence? what happened to trusting judgements #ukedchat

didactylos 20:00 #ukedchat likely to lurk, not really my area this one

colport 20:00

I am hoping the discussion will go beyond APP, to demonstrate good

practices of formative assessment in all sectors #ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:01@cleverfiend Are teachers' judgements in assessment ever enough thesedays? #ukedchat

wjputt 20:01Formative assessment/assessment for learning is the key. The work of Black& William are key to this. #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:01 #ukedchat Simple answer is yes APP does work-when done properly.

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colport 20:01If we can focus on methods people use in collecting and using AssessingPupils Progress in Maths/English and other subjects? #ukedchat

Julian3576 20:02

#ukedchat Assessment is great when pupils reflect and reinforce own

understanding and great when used to inform others.

artpod 20:02APP criteria for assessing maths in y1 seems far too complex/OTT to me@colport #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:02Is it too obvious to say that any assessment should be used as anaid/enhancement of learning and not for number counting... #ukedchat

BryanPlumb 20:03

@Crosbiei @cleverfiend I think tchr opinions are essential, but as with

everything it is all about evidence, evidence, evidence. #ukedchat

cleverfiend 20:03#ukedchat I've seen schools bogged down with evidence gathering, targetsetting and sublevels. Does this improve learning? Convince me :)

03mghanem 20:03 what sorts of methods do different settings use for APP? #ukedchat

colport 20:03

APP is a focus area within our (primary) school. I am trying to use

GoogleForms/Spreadsheet to store data #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

DrAshCasey 20:03@Ideas_Factory isn't the case with all meaningful assessment? #ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:03@Ideas_Factory That sounds like discussion over. Can I go to bed now?#ukedchat

dailydenouement 20:04

I find APP quite liberating in terms of marking - enjoy transparency of

sharing AFs & then using level descriptors to give fdback #ukedchat

colport 20:04

@artpod I have found maths quite a difficult area for APP -http://bit.ly/8qORcp - currently trying Google to support collection#ukedchat

Julian3576 20:04#ukedchat Please take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-bL1jBLeHU a system I developed to use with my class.

DrAshCasey 20:04

@colport we could but that would take me out of the conversation...I will sit

back for a bit. #ukedchat

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BryanPlumb 20:06Would it take away the strain if pupils taught to link evidence to systemthemselves? ie pupil photos work and uploads to APP? #ukedchat

grahamwarren 20:06 #ukedchat you can't fatten a pig by weighing it...

Crosbiei 20:06My school has used 3 different methods of target setting in the last 3 yrs.And APP has not featured in any of them! #ukedchat

colport 20:06@DrAshCasey No, I was hoping to use this as a starter, then move towardsother subjects when people have shared these experiences #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:06

#ukedchat In maths I am trying out using photos and conversations with

chn. Have made "clumps" of APP strands that appear in each block...

KnikiDavies 20:07@ohlottie #ukedchat I'm afraid so, but it is excellent! Shows graphs of pupilprogress that parents find really helpful, whole school data..

Ideas_Factory 20:07http://www.assessment-reform-group.org/publications.html #ukedchatVery very good website/assoc and brill publications

BryanPlumb 20:07 PupilAsset is a paid for service, yes. #ukedchat

colport 20:07I am worried that my own daughter's secondary school still focus onsummative assessment procedures #ukedchat Will this always be the way?

Crosbiei 20:07@BryanPlumb But should evidence be that important? Cant we just betrusted to be honest with what we've seen? #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:08 @Crosbiei #ukedchat Is not about honesty-it's about accuracy.

colport 20:08@Ideas_Factory But you still get colleagues who huff and puff. To me, APPplaces the professional status back into teaching #ukedchat

cleverfiend 20:08APP can be useful for teaching assistants who support students' learninghttp://fcr.me.uk/dfEVgq asking the right questions #ukedchat

tj007 20:08

Haven't used APP in secondary Maths. We test regularly and rely on teacher

judgment a lot. #ukedchat

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KnikiDavies 20:09@Crosbiei #ukedchat But without evidence how do we know if one person's"uses variety of connectives" looks same as someone else's?

MrKp 20:09 @grahamwarren #ukedchat very true!

Julian3576 20:09@BryanPlumb: pupils taught to link evidence to system themselves< idealsolution, reflection rather than assessment #ukedchat

SkoorBttaM 20:09RT @grahamwarren: #ukedchat you can't fatten a pig by weighing it...- Greatpoint!!

MrKp 20:09

APP for a whole class seems a huge job - and doing it for only 6 seems silly

how do you square the circle? #ukedchat

dailydenouement 20:10#ukedchat RT @wjputt: @colport as schools adopt more AfL approaches thelearning will improve - will take time to 'lose' numbers etc..

DrAshCasey 20:10@colport @Ideas_Factory do we have a culture of 'teacher knows best' andtherefore some of our colleagues don't engage w new ideas #ukedchat

largerama 20:10

But is APP way forwrd for assessment? It is not a requirement for ICT in

2ndary now change of govt but is it best way to assess? #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:10@crosbiei #ukedchat When schools are judged by value added, and pupilsmove between schools, v important to know levels sent up are reliable

wjputt 20:10

RT @Ideas_Factory: http://www.assessment-reform-group.org/publications.html #ukedchat Very very good website/assoc andbrill publications

Ideas_Factory 20:10

@colport #ukedchat Agreed-Teachers can huff & puff all they like-they need

to have evidence to back up levels-Answers 'How do you know?'

colport 20:10@MrKp If you place a group of 'similar' pupils together, then you can judgethose who are better or not as good as the middle #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:10sampling six children doesn't seem to tally well with 'every child matters'...#ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:10

@Ideas_Factory #ukedchat Should the ability to assess accurately be more

of a focus in ITT?

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OhLottie 20:10@KnikiDavies No worries, will point the people with the money at school inits direction :) #ukedchat

dailydenouement 20:10

Shadow Cabinet speculation distracting me from #ukedchat - such a politics

geek am I!

Crosbiei 20:11@KnikiDavies #ukedchat But even if levels were sent with the child, wouldyou make your own evaluation of that child or rely on some1 elses?

duckinwales 20:11#ukedchat - sorry I'm late - what is tonight's topic? (sorry to non-teacherfollowers - may be a few educational tweets occuring)

deerwood 20:11 are we talking about APP and assessment in #ukedchat ?

Julian3576 20:11#ukedchat Every professional needs to be accountable in this day and age, just that tick boxes say nothing.

KnikiDavies 20:11@MrKp #ukedchat I do it for the whole class but only show detailedannotated evidence for 3.

OhLottie 20:11

@colport I think you might be right to worry. I have lots of secondary

teacher friends + the focus seems to be different. #ukedchat

03mghanem 20:12@Crosbiei I actually think it should, I am training at the moment and thereseems to be no clear guidance on how to do this well! #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:12@DrAshCasey @colport #ukedchat It used to be that assessment was basedon teacher say-so.It should be based on teacher know-how.APP is this

wjputt 20:12

#ukedchat Some great work from colleagues on AfL for last 2 years at

Holywell - moving learning & achievement on. #tmhhs 13-10-10 Pls come.

dailydenouement 20:12So many competing initiatives & requests for data reporting at 2ndary thinksome teachers see it as an imposition #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:12@mrkp #ukedchat Assessing the 3 focus chn shows I know what I'm doingand can be trusted when they look at results I give for other 30

colport 20:12

@DrAshCasey @Ideas_Factory You have to back up your judgment with

evidence, via observations, work etc. #ukedchat

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BryanPlumb 20:12@largerama It's a hell of a lot better than purely relying on exams :o)#ukedchat

sellyeve 20:12

every assessment approach has pros and cons - you need to have more than

one method in the toolkit #ukedchat

largerama 20:13 @BryanPlumb but is it better than NC levels #ukedchat

colport 20:13I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, under the newgovernment #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:13 @colport it's not foolproof - but then nothing is! #ukedchat

flyingstartmag 20:13Wanted to #ukedchat from @flyingstartedu 2nite, but thu is bad night 4 me2 sit @ computer. Hopefully i'll have great guest review 2 post :)

deerwood 20:13Okay, I'll go watch Eastenders or something more life affirming #ukedchatLOL

NSRiazat 20:13

RT @dailydenouement: #ukedchat RT @wjputt: @colport as schools adoptmore AfL approaches the learning will improve - will take time to 'lose'

numbers etc..

DrAshCasey 20:13Used a grt approach in recent work called 'teaching experiments' where youtry to understand the students' construction of an idea #ukedchat

colport 20:13@duckinwales @deerwood Does APP work? What other formativeassessment tools do you use? Do they work? #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:13

@Crosbiei #ukedchat point is tht value added uses levels sent up.If chld

comes to me with 3B I have to make 2 SLs regardless of what i think

OhLottie 20:13Intrigued that most find APP harder with num. than lit. We're justintroducing it in num. + my feeling was that it'd be easier! #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:14@Ideas_Factory @colport it may be 'a way' but I am sceptical of anythingthat is branded as 'the way' the world was flat afterall #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:14

@OhLottie #ukedchat EG: probability doesn't appear with other data

handling targets, appears somewhere in multiplying or something...

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SkoorBttaM 20:14Anyone you still doing APP and half termly/termly 'tests'? Doesn't thisdefeat the object?!? #ukedchat

Julian3576 20:14

#ukedchat Assessment should not just data points, but show learning taking

place as it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGvTELAz_k

KnikiDavies 20:14@OhLottie #ukedchat It's easier in that it's more clearcut, harder in thatthere are millions of descriptors seemingly randomly arranged!

Crosbiei 20:14@03mghanem #ukedchat I completely agree. I have only been teaching afew yrs and have had a v steep learning curve on assessment.

NSRiazat 20:14

@DrAshCasey Agree - definitely linked to culture and the 'way we do things'.

#ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:15RT @colport: I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, underthe new government #ukedchat

cleverfiend 20:15#ukedchat I find it frustrating that we use APP throughout science thenreport on level descriptors not APP at the end of each KS. Bit daft!

OhLottie 20:15

@Crosbiei @KnikiDavies Surely you start with the levels chn come with but

can disagree with them after your own assessment? #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:15@thingwallpri #ukedchat We do termly formal assessments in writing andmark the piece using APP grid. V. good for setting next target

colport 20:15@sellyeve Summative assessments are not foolproof either. With thesethings, there needs to be careful moderation & consideration #ukedchat

MrG_ICT 20:15

#ukedchat When do you assess? When taught? Can they do it two weeks

later?

sellyeve 20:15@largerama every assessment system routes back (or should do) to NClevels #ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:15@KnikiDavies #ukedchat But do u always agree that they were a 3B whenthey came up? We have a real prob with that from KS1 to KS2

sellyeve 20:16

@colport agreed - but then you can't look at any data in isolation...

#ukedchat

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KnikiDavies 20:19@iteachyear4 #ukedchat Yes reading is tough I find. Esp as each level in eachAF is only 1 or 2 sentences yet covers so much!

DrAshCasey 20:19

@Ideas_Factory @colport I don't buy that. I used cooperative learning for

peer/peer assessment and my observations to gd effect #ukedchat

colport 20:19@Ideas_Factory @DrAshCasey It is hard to think about something to replaceAPP which does not verge towards summarive #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:19@KnikiDavies #ukedchat How can the LA 'come-up' with levels without linksto raiseonline etc?

Julian3576 20:19

RT @colport: @MrKp as a teacher, I know where all my pupils are< but do

all parents, other teachers and the pupils them selves? #ukedchat

cleverfiend 20:19Some secondary sci depts are starting to equate APP with AfL - an activitythat happens once a half term/topic -that's bad surely? #ukedchat

largerama 20:19@sellyeve i know that but is the app a more accurate/efficient/easier routeto assessing the levels #ukedchat and is it here to stay?

OhLottie 20:19

I like this idea a lot! RT @colport I am trying to use

GoogleForms/Spreadsheet to store data #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

largerama 20:20

RT @colport: @gideonwilliams I think e-portfolios have a lot of scope insecondary schools especially. Keep an eye on www.myebooklearning.com#ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:20#ukedchat I know that most of the people I with really really don't like APPas they see it as pointless paperwork.

colport 20:20

@OhLottie Thanks. I had a brain wave on a train from Glasgow. It's free, and

always accessible for me to add #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

Ideas_Factory 20:20 @cleverfiend #ukedchat Doesn't AfL happen every lesson?!

gideonwilliams 20:20APP with target setting could be real buy in for students - must betransparent and valued #ukedchat

OhLottie 20:20

@KnikiDavies Are you talking about end of KS1 levels? I was talking about

levels from previous teacher, whatever the year group #ukedchat

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KnikiDavies 20:21@OhLottie #ukedchat I tend 2 assume that the previous teacher in my schlwas right in their judgement as we have rigorous moderation process

DrAshCasey 20:21

@colport @Ideas_Factory when did assessment become purely objective?

We are people and teachers and need to be subjective #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:21@largerama I suspect that with the withdrawal of funding it may be on itsway out - it was a bit of a hard sell to begin with... #ukedchat

OhLottie 20:21

True! RT @Ideas_Factory Reception has been doing this for years-assessment based on careful observation & recording of pupil work#ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:21

@DrAshCasey @colport #ukedchat But that's obs of pupils in grps not as

indiv-that's the difference

MrKp 20:21@colport #ukedchat I agree but with my management head on I don't wantto force people to do something that has massive workload cont...

colport 20:21@artpod Agreed, which is why I am always looking to make the processeasier for me #ukedchat

Grevster73 20:22

@cleverfiend APP can be used formatively or summatively - it's not what

they do, it's the way that they do it! #ukedchat

cleverfiend 20:22@Ideas_Factory AfL should happen all the time - but when APP self assessment tasks are termly AfL tasks confusion reigns for some #ukedchat

colport 20:22@Julian3576 If communication channels are open and accessible. We needto open the school doors a little more? #ukedchat

colport 20:23

@MrKp Absolutely, which is why I try to use technology to help me

streamline the process http://bit.ly/8qORcp #ukedchat

Laura_987 20:23@KnikiDavies But surely if you're using it to inform your future planning, it'snot pointless? #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:23@DrAshCasey @colport Ahh #ukedchat conundrum-how can we assesspupils in everything? Good point weakness in objective driven APP

Julian3576 20:23

@Ideas_Factory: #ukedchat panel of emminent experts< Why so little hands

on finding out in APP which early scientific fascination is based?

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gideonwilliams 20:23 Got to move away from fixed summative assessments #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:23

@Ideas_Factory @colport one of the key elements of cooperative leanring

is individual accountability i.e. children as individuals #ukedchat

iteachyear4 20:23@KnikiDavies Exactly - and open to so much interpretation! Allowing chntime to just talk about books is useful though #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:23#ukedchat I think a problem is that levels etc are so high stakes. If not somuch rode on them I think APP etc could be lots more useful.

Ideas_Factory 20:24

@cleverfiend #ukedchat Can't see why-APP is objective driven assessment.

AfL is helping learning not a record of what's learnt

colport 20:24@DrAshCasey @Ideas_Factory Assessment became objective with the NatCurr, I'm afraid. We need to be subjective as teachers tho #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:24RT @Grevster73: @DrAshCasey I like 'fuzzy assessment' #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:24

@Laura_987 #ukedchat I don't think it is pointless at all, I like it, but is hard

to convince others of that!

Grevster73 20:24 @DrAshCasey I like 'fuzzy assessment' #ukedchat

colport 20:25@KnikiDavies Absolutely. Too many school managers (and parents, it mustbe said) rely on summative assessment scores #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:25

@Julian3576 #ukedchat Agreed-that's the thing about science APP no

investigation

Grevster73 20:25@KnikiDavies #ukedchat day-to-day assessment through APP does not haveto be highstakes

duckinwales 20:25RT @KnikiDavies @OhLottie never assume - I used to assume exam paperswere checked before publishing! (sorry keep missing out #ukedchat)

Julian3576 20:25

RT @colport: @Julian3576 We need to open the school doors a little

more?< can only be a good thing #ukedchat

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03mghanem 20:26@Laura_987i agree,but do think that it can seem pointless when th onlything that really matters in the scheme of things are grades#ukedchat

colport 20:26

@dan_bowen I don't fear APP, It's just huge in Primary Maths. I am trying to

streamline and make the process easier for all #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:26@Grevster73 it shouldn't be a choice between teaching and assessingeither! #ukedchat

dan_bowen 20:26@colport @duckinwales @deerwood #ukedchat honestly, APP is easy androbust and the best way to identify level..no other way.

KnikiDavies 20:26@Grevster73 #ukedchat But if it is going to replace SATS then it will be

DrAshCasey 20:26@Grevster73 objectivity is a myth. It's the atlantis of assessment (in thiscase). fuzzy will always be there even when uninvited #ukedchat

Laura_987 20:26@KnikiDavies Sorry didn't mean to include you in the hard to convincebunch. Glad you like it :) #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:27

@Laura_987 Hee! Yes I think it is really useful. #ukedchat How do you get

others to see it as useful not just another hoop?

duckinwales 20:27@colport @KnikiDavies oh so true #ukedchat - so easy to fall into the trap of teaching to exams - esp with time/management pressures.

Julian3576 20:27@Ideas_Factory: #ukedchat The thing about science APP no investigation crazy but true

Julian3576 21:00@cleverfiend: @sellyeve < classic quote 'but if everyone could understand,then where does that leave the teaching profession' #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 21:00 Have enjoyed my first eve here, thanks all! #ukedchat

Grevster73 21:00@DeputyHeadDunn #ukedchat there needs to be a culture change inschools

ukedchat 21:00It's 9:00 - Another #ukedchat draws to an end. The archive process will startat 9.15. Thank you for your contributions.

SkoorBttaM 21:00

RT @colport: I know @janwebb21 is developing an IPhone app to support

APP - will be even better with new iPod Touches with cameras :-) #ukedchat

damoward 21:01

RT @duckinwales: Last few mins of #ukedchat, so going to squeeze in ablatant plug 4 #tmhhs - this Wed in Holywell all welcomehttp://www.teachmeet.org.uk/

ukedchat 21:01The #ukedchat blog (summaries of previous sessions) athttp://ukedchat.wordpress.com/

josepicardo 21:01

RT @mberry AfL: the L is so, so much more important than the A #ukedchat

[will definitely quote you on that Miles!]

sellyeve 21:01 @iteachyear4 thanks! #ukedchat

DanielHugill 21:02#ukedchat Thanks all! Great stuff to think about!. APP will hopefully hangaround long enough for us to try use!

ukedchat 21:02

The #ukedchat Facebook page is at http://on.fb.me/9k7Z1u - Click 'Like' to

receive updates

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Crosbiei 21:02@sellyeve I agree. But isnt it currently just more paperwork for teachers tocomplete? #ukedchat

andreacarr1 21:02

RT @Ideas_Factory:#ukedchat APP maths is easy-working out level is pain-

try @andreacarr1 i-progress > free for a term if that helps anyone.

sellyeve 21:02thanks everyone - good chat. Many thanks to colport for moderating too!#ukedchat

dailydenouement 21:02Really looking fwd to archive -some great ideas/links tonight. Thanks folksfor being ace professionals! Always useful & inspiring #ukedchat

sellyeve 21:03 @Crosbiei sure is paperwork! #ukedchat

colport 21:05@TomSale Ah, but the iPad version is 1.79 - I'd have to buy all staff iPads ;-) #ukedchat

Julian3576 21:05RT @DanielHugill: #ukedchat APP will hopefully hang around long enoughfor us to use!< and develop into something useful before all change!

mberry 21:06

@Grevster73 I'd need to check the sources, but don't these indicate that

better A can/does improve L (as measured by A) #ukedchat

Arakwai 21:06@DanielHugill But wheels are so much better when reinvented ;-)#ukedchat

raff31 21:08@colport sorry that I missed #ukedchat Got stuck with footy and pumpingup 3 child pram tyres...harder than it sounds!

mberry 21:08

@spookingdorf @dan_bowen TfL or tFL? Make mine a student Oyster card.

#ukedchat

ukedchat 21:12 The #ukedchat archive process has started.

rebecca_rutt 21:12

RT @ChrisPadden: We made an assessment framework for the Welsh: APPfor Wales :) http://bit.ly/WelshAPP Used by 10% of Welsh schools at lastcount #ukedchat

Orlama 21:14

#ukedchat I think if U find APP useful then use it It will not stp external

assessment but cn help in informing wht U do nxt w/ yr children

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AntLak 21:20@primarypete_ I just started using evernote on the iPad and my othercomputers and am loving it. Nice to have it all all the time #ukedchat

scholaforis 21:23

#ukedchat Help! Any of you in SLT/Govs in Federations? Looking at LA

systems/support which is good/barrier to fed develoment. DM pls. Ta

Ukedchat Archive 07 October 2010

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