Australians at War Film Archive Alexander McNab (Sandy) - Transcript of interview Date of interview: 5th September 2003 http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/884 Tape 1 00:33 Fantastic Sandy. Could I get you to start with a brief outline of your life story? Starting from where you were born. Yep. Alright. Well, the name is Alexander Smith McNab, mainly known as Sandy McNab. I was born in Scotland in 1920 and in 1921 I was brought out by Australia by an uncle 01:00 and aunty. Shortly after that the aunty died and the uncle went back to Scotland and I was left with a young baby cousin for a couple of years while he went back and got another wife. He came back to Australia and at that time we were living in Brunswick. Shifted to Coburg, where I started school. I went to a West Coburg State School and the North West 01:30 Brunswick Moreland State School and then the Brunswick Technical School. After school I left and got a job in a bike shop for about 12 months. My guardians or uncle and aunty, they had started a cake, baker’s shop in Brunswick and so after a while I went back and worked for them. Then I went to Moonee Ponds to be apprenticed to a baker over there. 02:00 Half way through my apprenticeship my uncle died so I had to go back to the family business and help out there. Then the next year the aunty died, so I was in charge of the business then. That was about 1937. 1938 I joined the militia in the Victorian Scottish Regiment. The next year war started and they called 02:30 us up immediately. Went to camp in Portsea for a month guarding something or other. I don’t know what it was. We didn’t see anything anyhow. That was in October/November 1939. We came home for Christmas. Went back to camp in January at Mount Martha for three months. That finished in April. In May I joined the AIF [Australian Imperial Forces] 03:00 and for the next six years I was in the army. Left the army in 1945. Worked for the State Electricity Commission for about five years, ’45, about eight years, and then I left that and went share farming up at a place called Athlone near Drewen. That took us through to 1963/4. 03:30 After we our children were starting to grow up. There was nothing up in the country for them so we moved down here. I worked at General Motors for about 12 months then in a local timber yard for 11 years. Left there. Went to a plastic factory in Seaford for about another 10 or 11 years and then I retired. 04:00 Fantastic. That was in, retired in 1984. Okay. That enough? Yeah, that sounds brilliant. It doesn’t sound much when you say it quick. We’re recording now Sandy. Yeah. Can I also ask you just very briefly which theatres you served in and which units in the AIF you served with? Which unit I served with? Right from the start, well, first of all in the AIF I was 04:30 in the 2/7th Battalion Reinforcements and then they formed the…
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AustraliansatWarFilmArchive
AlexanderMcNab(Sandy)-TranscriptofinterviewDateofinterview:5thSeptember2003
http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/884
Tape1
00:33 FantasticSandy.CouldIgetyoutostartwithabriefoutlineofyourlifestory?Startingfromwhereyouwereborn.
Yep.Alright.Well,thenameisAlexanderSmithMcNab,mainlyknownasSandyMcNab.IwasborninScotlandin1920andin1921IwasbroughtoutbyAustraliabyanuncle
01:00 andaunty.ShortlyafterthattheauntydiedandtheunclewentbacktoScotlandandIwasleftwithayoungbabycousinforacoupleofyearswhilehewentbackandgotanotherwife.HecamebacktoAustraliaandatthattimewewerelivinginBrunswick.ShiftedtoCoburg,whereIstartedschool.IwenttoaWestCoburgStateSchoolandtheNorthWest
01:30 BrunswickMorelandStateSchoolandthentheBrunswickTechnicalSchool.AfterschoolIleftandgotajobinabikeshopforabout12months.Myguardiansoruncleandaunty,theyhadstartedacake,baker’sshopinBrunswickandsoafterawhileIwentbackandworkedforthem.ThenIwenttoMooneePondstobeapprenticedtoabakeroverthere.
02:00 HalfwaythroughmyapprenticeshipmyunclediedsoIhadtogobacktothefamilybusinessandhelpoutthere.Thenthenextyeartheauntydied,soIwasinchargeofthebusinessthen.Thatwasabout1937.1938IjoinedthemilitiaintheVictorianScottishRegiment.Thenextyearwarstartedandtheycalled
02:30 usupimmediately.WenttocampinPortseaforamonthguardingsomethingorother.Idon’tknowwhatitwas.Wedidn’tseeanythinganyhow.ThatwasinOctober/November1939.WecamehomeforChristmas.WentbacktocampinJanuaryatMountMarthaforthreemonths.ThatfinishedinApril.InMayIjoinedtheAIF[AustralianImperialForces]
03:00 andforthenextsixyearsIwasinthearmy.Leftthearmyin1945.WorkedfortheStateElectricityCommissionforaboutfiveyears,’45,abouteightyears,andthenIleftthatandwentsharefarmingupataplacecalledAthlonenearDrewen.Thattookusthroughto1963/4.
03:30 Afterweourchildrenwerestartingtogrowup.Therewasnothingupinthecountryforthemsowemoveddownhere.IworkedatGeneralMotorsforabout12monthstheninalocaltimberyardfor11years.Leftthere.WenttoaplasticfactoryinSeafordforaboutanother10or11yearsandthenIretired.
04:00 Fantastic.
Thatwasin,retiredin1984.
Okay.
Thatenough?
Yeah,thatsoundsbrilliant.
Itdoesn’tsoundmuchwhenyousayitquick.
We’rerecordingnowSandy.
Yeah.
CanIalsoaskyoujustverybrieflywhichtheatresyouservedinandwhichunitsintheAIFyouservedwith?
WhichunitIservedwith?Rightfromthestart,well,firstofallintheAIFIwas
04:30 inthe2/7thBattalionReinforcementsandthentheyformedthe…
Sorry,sorry,Imissedyouthere.Whichbattalionagain?
2/7th.
2/7thBattalion?
Reinforcements,yeah,atDarleynearBacchusMarsh.Thenthe8thDivisionwereformedandtheytookustoformthe2/29thBattalion.ThatwasNovember1940andwe
05:00 werethereforagesandnotgettinganywhere.SocoupleofpeoplecomearoundcallingforvolunteersforaspecialunitandIvolunteeredforthatandthatturnedouttobeNumber1IndependentCompanyandIwasinthattilltheendof1943,andthenfromthenontilltheendofthewarIwasinabakeryunit.
Which
05:30 theatresdidyouservein?
SouthwestPacificmainly.Youknow,NewIrelandandBukaandBougainville.
Right,okay.Thankyouforthat.WhatIwillstartnowisaskyousomequestionsaboutyourpre-warlife
Yep.
Yeah,beingborninScotland…
Yep.
youcametoAustraliaafterabout12monthswasit?
Yeah.Mymotherdiedgivingbirthtomeandmy
06:00 fathercouldn’tlookafterme,youknow,properlyinthosedays.Sohehadasisterwhowasmarried.Beenmarriedfor15,16yearswithnochildrenandtheyweremyuncleandauntyandtheydecidedthattheywouldlookafterme.Nowtheunclewasfairlywealthy.HehadabigbakeryinthelittletownwhereIwasborn,which
06:30 wasDunooninScotland.It’sinArgyleontheRiverClydeandhehadabigbakerytherewithaboutfiveshopsandafairbitofmoneyandsoheemployedanannytolookaftermeandafterabout12monthsforsomereasonthenhedecidedtocometoAustralia.Sohecameout1922,Ithink.I’mnot,youknow,reallysure.He
07:00 cameoutandwasreadytosettleinAustraliaandnosoonerhegotherethanhiswifegotpregnantafteraboutfiveyears,ah,15years.Unfortunatelyshediedgivingbirth.Sogavebirthtoalittlegirlandshepassedaway.SotheuncleleftuswithsomepeopleinBrunswick,someScotchpeoplethatheknew,andhecamebacktoScotlandandgotanother
07:30 wife.Thenhecameout.I’venoideahowlonghewasawaybutIimagine12,18months.HecameoutandthenhestartedtocatchuponhisbakinganditwasathingthatwassodifferenttoScotland,thehotweatherouthereandthecoldweatherinScotland,thathehadtolearntobeabakeragain.SohewasbakingupatMilduraandhewasbakingat
08:00 YarraJunction.Helearntthetradeagainandheopenedashopin1929inSydneyRoad,Brunswick,andalmostimmediatelyheopenedtheshoptheDepressionstarted.Sohewasbrokewithinacoupleofyears,anyhow,butinthemeantimeI’dbeentoschool,startedschoolattheWestCoburgStateSchool.
08:30 ThentheyopenedaschoolatNorthwestBrunswick.Iwentthere.ThenIwenttoMorelandStateSchool,whichwasnearthebakery,tillIwasabout13ah12.WenttotheBrunswickTechnicalSchoolforacoupleofyearsandIleftwhenIwas13.IgotajobattheLincolnMillsbuttheyfoundoutIwasonly13soIhadtogoback
09:00 toschoolagain,whichwasn’tvery,butIwasthere,IonlyhadtogobackforacoupleofmonthsandthenIleftschoolbutbythattimetheDepressionwasrightintothedepth.Therewasnojobsaboutandyouhadtogotoanemploymentagencyandpaythemtofindyouajob,whichtheydid.TheyfoundmeajobwithabikeshopinFitzroy.
09:30 ItwasIwaspaid10shillingsaweekandIusedtohavetocatchatramfromCoburgtothecityandanothertramfromthecitytoFitzroy,whichcostmesixpenceeachway.Itwasashillingaday.SoIwasgetting10shillingsandpayingsixshillingsaweekinfares.NotlongafterthatIboughtabikefromtheplacewhereIwasworkingandthatwasfivepoundforabike.
10:00 Sothatsavedthat.Iwasatthebikeshopforabout12monthsandthentheytookmebacktothebakehousesotheyreckonedI’dlearnthetrade.Istayedwiththeuncleforabout12,oh,sixmonthsandhegotmeanapprenticeshipoverinMooneePondsas,inHolmesRoad,asanapprenticetoafellacalledAlfDuncan.He
10:30 wasagoodteacher.Iwasthereforabouttwoyearsthentheoldunclehediedandsosent,Ihadtogo
backtothefamilybusinessandhelpthere.Twelvemonthslatermyauntydiedandsothatleftmewithmyyoungcousin,thegirl,theirdaughter.Shewasabout15.Iwas
11:00 about17andwehadabusinesstorun.SoitwaswegotabitofhelpfrompeopleandtherewaslotsofdebtsleftfromtheDepression.Sowestruggledalongtheretilaboutwell1938,IjoinedtheVictorianScottishRegimentandweusedtonightparades,that’sall.Itdidn’tinterferewiththebusinessandtheninSeptember1939thewar
11:30 brokeoutandtheVictorianScottishRegimentwascalledupstraightaway.SoIhadtoleavethebakehouseandtheygotsomeonetotakemyplaceforawhile.
Sandybeforewegoontothewar,thereareanumberofquestionsI’dliketoaskyou…
Yep.
abouttheyearsbeforethewar,forinstance,yourfamilybackground.I’minterestedtoknow
12:00 ifyouhad,wereyouruncleorfatheroranyone,theirbrothersorwhathaveyou…
Yeah.
intheFirstWorldWar?WasthereanyconnectiontheretotheFirst[World]War?
TheFirstWar?
Yes.
Yeah.MyfatherwasintheArgyleandSutherlandHighlandersintheFirstWarandhewasaPOW[PrisonerOfWar]Ithink.Thatwasastrangething.Ineverknewmymother’sfamily.TheywerefromtheotherendofScotlandandIhaveonly
12:30 justfoundthemacoupleofyearagobutmyfather,afterIleftScotlandwiththeunclehemarriedagainandhehadthreechildrenbuttherewassomemysteryaboutitbecausefromthetimeIgotouthereIneverheardfrommyfatheragainanditdidn’tworrymeyouknow,
13:00 akiddidn’tworrythen,butimmediatelymyuncleandauntydiedIgotaletterfrommefather.SoobviouslyhehadsomeoneinAustraliakeepinganeyeonmeandhewantedmetogobacktoScotlandbutno,IwastoowellsettledinAustraliathentodothatbuthemarriedandhehad,asIsaid,hehadthreeotherchildren.Inevermethim
13:30 again,actually.HediedIwentbeenbacktoScotlandtwicetomeettheotherpartsofthefamily.Ihadasister.She’stheonlyoneleft.Thereweretwobrothersorhalfbrothers.OneworkedinMalayaforabout40yearsonthetindredgesandtheotheroneworkedaroundDunoon,butI’vebeenbackandmetthembutmefatherandstep-motherhadboth
14:00 died.
Soyoureallydidn’tknowmuchaboutyourdad’sservicerecordatall?
No,no.Idon’treallyknowanythingaboutImeanIknowthathewasabakertoo.Oronmymarriagecertificatehe’satruckdriverbutIknowheworkedinthebakehousesandtheyhadcafes.HehadafishandchipshopinDunoon,but
14:30 hewasabitofagamblerandhesavedmoneyuptocomeoutandseeusIbelieveseveraltimesbutthenhegotdowntotheracetrackanddidthelot,buthedied,hewas83whenhedied,anduptilIwasabout,tilhemadecontactwithmewhenIwas17,IthoughthewantednopartofmebutI’vefoundoutafterwardsthathedidbuttherewassomething
15:00 wentonbetweentheuncleandhimthattheyjustdidn’tkeepincontact;whatitwasIdon’tknow.
HowdidtheDepressionaffectyourlife?
Hey?
HowdidtheDepressionaffectyourlife?
Oh.
Inyouryouth?
Depression,youmeanin,asayoungbloke?
Yeah.
Or,or…
TheDepression?
Oh,Depression?Didn’tmeanmuchtome.Ihada
15:30 jobandweusedtoplayfootballandcricket.IwenttochurchandtherewasagroupofusIsupposewewenttothechurch,notbecauseweweredeeplyreligiousoranything,becausetheyhadacricketteamandafootballteamandyouhadtogotochurchtogetagamebutweknockedaboutasagroup
16:00 rightuptillthewarstarted.Imeaninthewholefootballteamtherewasnoonehadacar,soeverywherewewentweusedtohavetogobypublictransport.Imeaninthewintertime,SaturdaynightwasadanceandinthesummertimeweusedtogotothepicturesupinWestBrunswick.There’dalwaysbeagroupof20or30ofus,nearlyfillatram.
16:30 IwasalittlebitseparatefromthembecauseworkinginthebakehousesweworkedallnightorearlymorningandI’dbegoinghomefromworkandthey’dbegoingtoworkandsoIneversawmuchofthemthroughtheweek,justtheweekends.IsupposetheDepressionmeantthatwedidn’thavealotofmoneybutIdon’t
17:00 reallyremembermissinganything.IwenttoschoolyouknowandIusedtoalways,wecouldn’taffordtohavetheschooljumper,sothatwasabitofaletdown.Theolduncleandtheauntytheyreallylookedaftermewell.Ineverhadanymoneytospend.TherewasneversuchathingaspocketmoneyandthatbutafterIstarted
17:30 workIusedtohavethemoneytogotothepictures,moneytoplaycricket,football.That’sallweneeded.Wealwayshadplentytoeat.Weownedourownhouse,sowealwayshadaccommodation.Noworriesaboutthatway.Idon’tthinktheoldpeoplemissedmuch
18:00 becauseheusedtodrinkabitso,heusedtodrinkalot,soheprobablycouldaffordthat.Theaunty,Idon’trememberreally,youknowit’sstrange,Ican’tremembereversittingdowntoamealwiththembutImusthavebecausethey’dbeuptheshop,I’dbeatschool.I’dcomehomeandmaybehavetolightthefireorsomething
18:30 likethat.Thenthey’dgethomeaboutseveno’clockandwe’dgotobed.Attheweekendtheuncle’dbeoffplayingbowls.Theaunty,Idon’tknowwhatshedid.We’dbeoutplaying.Soitwasn’treallyalotoffamilylife.Icouldn’tsaythat.Wedidn’tgoanywheretogetherbecause,asIsaid,theoldunclewasyouknowhewasaway,Iwassomewhereelse.
19:00 Thecousin,thedaughter,shelivesupthecountrynow,shewaswithherauntwithhermotherorstepmotheralotandtheyusedtogotodancestogetherwhenshewasoldenoughbutIdon’tremembereveranyfamilyoutings.LikegoingtothebeachoranythinglikethatwhenIwasgrowingup.Couldn’t…
Whatabout…
Soitwasn’t,
19:30 youknow,wasn’treallyafamilyatmosphereandyettheylovedmeIsupposeyoucouldsaybutitjustdidn’tworkoutthatwaythatwecouldgoplacestogether.
Becauseyouhadabakery,youwere,isitbecauseyouhadabakery…?
Ohwell,yes.
youweren’tshortoffood?Isthatoneofthereasons?
Itwasabigtie.Imeanthebakerywassevendaysaweek
20:00 because,youknowtheshopwasopensixdaysaweekandonaSundayyouhadtogodownandcleantheovensoutandmakethedoughforthenextday.Soitwasasevendayweekjobandtheoldfella,heinthefinishhehitthebottlealotandIalwayshadtotakeoveratyouknowbeforeIwasreadytotakeoverreally.Wehadtogetblokesintohelpusbakethedough.Sohefinishedup,
20:30 hedrankhimselftodeathinthefinish.Hecouldn’thavebeenvery,Ithinkhewasonlyabout57whenhediedbutasyousay,thebakerydidyouknow,itwashe’dbeworkingthereallnight.Theaunty’dgettotheshopabouteighto’clockinthemorningandshewouldn’tgethometillseveno’clockatnight.Sotheywereneverevertogetherreally.
21:00 Tellusaboutyourschool?
Schools?IcanremembertheWestCoburgSchoolwasanoldestablishedplaceandIthinkIwenttheretillaboutthefourthgrade.Itwouldbefromabout1925toabout1927/8
21:30 andthenitwasjusta,thatpartoftheareawasopenpaddocksthen.Idon’tknowwhetheryouknowitnowbutfromWestCoburgtoEssendonAerodromewasjustpaddocksbutitwasstartingtogetsettled.SoafterafewyearsatWestCoburgtheyopenedanewschoolinNorthWestBrunswick,whichwasclosertousapparently,andsowealltransferredoralotofus
22:00 transferredfromWestCoburgtotheNorthWestBrunswickSchoolandIwasthereforacoupleofyearsandwewerelivinginSaundersStreet,WestCoburg,andthentheuncledecidedthathe’dliketolivenearthebakeryupinSydneyRoad.SohemustrentedthehouseoutandrentedonenearthebakeryupinSydneyRoadandsothenIhadtotransferfromtheNorthWest
22:30 BrunswickSchooltotheMorelandSchoolandIwastherefor,oh,fifthandsixthgradesIwouldsaythere,thenwesatforourqualifyingcertificateandin1931Imusthavewentdown,1932IwenttotheBrunswickTechnicalSchool,whichwasIsupposethree,four
23:00 Ks[kilometres]away.Usedtohavetowalkthereandback.Couldn’taffordthetramsthen.ThatwasonethingtheDepressiondiddo.Iwasn’tverygoodatwoodwork,sheetmetaloranythinglikethatsoIdidn’tdoanythingstartlingatthattechnicalschool,butweplayedfootball,weplayedcricket.ItwasrightneartheBrunswick
23:30 Baths,swimmingbaths,soweusedtogetabitofswimmingin.Ididn’tmakeagreatlotoffriendsatschool.IhadtwofriendsthatIparticularlymadeandtheybothjoinedthearmywithme.Sowestucktogetherforalong,longwhile.IwasasIleftabout13,wenttotheLincolnMills
24:00 andtheyfoundoutIwasonly13sotheysentmebacktoschoolforacoupleofmonthsandIhadajobinthesciencedepartment.OnesubjectIwasgoodwasscienceandphysics,sotheyputmeintherelabellingbottlesorsomethinglikethatforabouttwomonthsandthenIwas14.SoIfinishedschoolthen.Neverhadanymoreeducation.
Youwere14when...?
Yeah,
24:30 14whenIleft.
Sotelluswhatlifewaslikeafteryouruncleandauntyhadpassedawayin1936/37?
Ahwell,therewasacoupleoffriendsofmyuncleandtheytookthedaughtertolivewiththemdownEastBrunswick.Ishouldtellyou,bythistimewewerebacklivinginSaundersStreetsowhentheybothdied
25:00 andtheygotsomeonetocomeandliverentfreeandlookaftermeatthehouse.Some,oh,therewasaseriesofpeoplecameinandout.Idon’tremembersomeofthemtobuttheydidn’tlookaftermeverywell,but,youknow,Iwas15.Icouldlookaftermeself.Afterawhilethese
25:30 peoplethatwerelookingaftermycousin,theygottheirson-in-lawanddaughter-in-lawtocomealongandliveinthehouseandlookaftermebutitwasprettylonelyI’dsaybecauseIhadnooneofanyrelativewithmebutIhadalotofgoodmatesandweusedto,youknow,Iwasbythattimeworkingbackinourownbakehouse.So
26:00 I’dbeoutallnightworkingandI’dcomehome,I’dgotobedandthepeoplethatlivedinthehouse,they’dbeawayworkingallday.SoIwasn’tgettingagreatdealofcontactwiththemeither.Weusedtovaryit;forawhilethereIwasstartingworkattwoo’clockinthemorningandIfoundoutIwasgoingtobedabout11and
26:30 sleepingin.SoweswitcheditaroundandIstarted11o’clockatnight,whichmeantiftherewasa,atthechurchwherewearetheyhadagymnasium,theyhadbadmintonclubs,theyhadboysclubs.SoIusedtogoontothoseeventsofaneveningandthengostraighttoworkafterthefinishofthemandthenI’dworkallnightandI’dmeetallmemateswhenI’mwalking
27:00 home,theywerewalkingtoworkbutitwasaprettyuneventfulsortofalife.ApleasantenoughlifeIsupposebecauseweusedtogotothepictures,weusedtogotodances.Iplayedcricketandfootballandbadminton.Therewasplentytodo.AsIsaid,therewerenocarsinthegroupatall.Everytimewewentanywhereweeitherwalkedorgoton
27:30 thetram.WeusedtogotoadanceupnearPentridgeeverySaturdaynightattheHolyTrinityChurchupthereandweusedtowalkupBullaRoadtoSydneyRoad.Catchthetramuptothedance.Catchatramback.GotoanItalianrestaurantinSydneyRoadthere,theRialto.HavesteakandeggsandsomethinglikethatonSundaynight.So
28:00 IwasprettytiredbySundaybecauseIusedtostartworkinthebakehouseattwoo’clockor11o’clockonThursdaynightortwoo’clockFridaymorningandI’dworkrightthroughFridaytillthedoughwasmadeatFridayafternoonandI’dhaveasleepforacoupleofhoursontheflourbagandgetupagain,workallnightFridaynight.Saturdaymorningmemate’dcomearoundbeforeIhadtimetosleep
28:30 andwe’dgotoMelbourne.We’dhaveamorningintown.We’dcomeout,backfromthereandplayfootballorcricket.Thenwe’dcomehomeandI’dgotoadancethatnight.Soit’dfinishup,Iwasupattwoo’clockFridaymorningandIwouldn’tgettobedtilltwoo’clockSundaymorning.SoandthenIwouldsleepthroughtillSundayafternoon.Hadtogetupandgomakethedoughagain.ItwasaprettybusyweekendIcantellyou,andI’d
29:00 betiredbutgotusedtoitafterawhile.
Didyouhaveasisteroranythinglikethat?
Hey?
Didyouhaveanysiblings?Asisterorabrother?
Ihadacousinlike,thegirlcousin.Well,Icalledhermysisterthenbecausewewerebroughtuptogether,butsheseemedtohaveherownlife.Shewaslivingdownwiththese
29:30 peopleinBrunswickthatsortofkeptaneyeonusandkeptus,youknow,soweweren’texploitedtoomuchbutshehadfriendsoutsideofourcircleandwhenIjoinedthearmyafterawhileshejoinedthearmytooandshegotmarriedandshe’smoved,livesupinNewSouthWalesnow.Iseeheroccasionally.
ShewasintheAWAS[AustralianWomen’sArmyService]?
30:00 Yeahshe,wellyeah,mywifewasintheAWASandshewas,Jeanwastoo.Sheworkedupatohtheyhadasortofasoldiers’clubinElizabethStreet.SheworkedthereforawhileinthecanteenandthenshemoveduptoAlburythattherebutwe’vealwaysbeenclose,youknow,likeabrotherandsister,andbut
30:30 duringourschooltime,lookIcouldn’teventellyouwhatschoolshewenttoaftersheleftState.IthinkshefinishedupjustdoingeighthgradeintheStatejointbutIcouldn’t;afterthatsheworkedinthebakehouse,notinthebakehousebutintheshop.Idon’tthinksheeverhadanyotherjobandIcanalwaysremember
31:00 I’dbeentalkingtomeauntythisdayandshewastalkingaboutvariousthingsandshesaidtome,“Ihaven’tmadeawill.I’llhavetomakeoneoutandleaveyousomething,”youknow.Isaid,wellitdidn’tworryme,butthatwasaboutbreakfasttime.Iwenttobedandsheusedtowakemetogetupandgoandmakethedoughaboutthreeo’clockintheafternoon.Iwokeup.Itwasfouro’clock.Ithought,“Thisisfunny,”andshehad
31:30 diabetesandshe’dhadalittleoperationonheraninfectedfinger,butanyhowIgotupandwentintothebedroomandshewasdeadinbed.Sothat,youknow,Ididn’tknowwhatthehelltodobutIgotitsortedout.CalledherdoctorandthenIhadtogoandmeetherdaughter.JeanwasshuttheshopupandshewascominghomeandImetheronthewaybutluckilyshe
32:00 waswithoneoftheneighbouringgirls,neighboursacrosstheroad,andItoldthegirlandshesaid,“Oh.”Youknow,shetookJean,mycousin,backtotheirplaceforthenight.Itwasabitofadrama.Sofromthenon,weneverlivedtogetheragainafterthat.Shelivedwiththese,well,shecalledheruncleandauntybutthey
32:30 weren’tandasIsaid,whenIwentintothearmy,theykeptthebaker’sgoingforawhilebuttheycouldn’tmanagewithoutmeandIwantedtobeasoldiermorethanabaker.Sotheyhadtosellthebusiness.
CanyoutelluswhatCoburgandBrunswickwaslikeduringthoseyears?
33:00 Atthetime?
Yeah,wellBrunswickwasamorelivelyplaceI’dsaythanCoburg.Itseemedtobetherewasmorefactoriesandthatdownthere.SydneyRoad,wellitwascabletramsupanddownSydneyRoad.TherewerethreetheatresinSydneyRoad.TherewastheoldAlhambra,wasupnearMorelandRoad,andtherewas
33:30 theEmpireTheatrewasdowntheotherendofSydneyRoadnearBrunswickRoadandwhenwewereyouths,Isuppose,theybuiltanothertheybuiltanewtheatrecalledThePaduaandit’sgonenow,that’showlongago,butitwasfancy.Youhadheatedpadstoputyourfeetonandyoucouldsmokeandthesmokeusedtogorightupand
34:00 itwasareal,you’dgohalftimethey’dhavesingersandactorsonthestage.TheoldAlhambrauptheotherend,youcouldsitinthereyoucouldseetheskythroughtheroof,theholesintheroof.Ifitrainedyoucouldn’thearwhatwasgoingon.TheEmpireTheatre,Ineverwentthere.TherewasanotheronedowninWestBrunswickcalledTheWesternTheatreandwe
34:30 usedtobeabletocatchatramalongMelvilleRoadandgotoTheWestern,soTheWesternwastheonewemostlywentto.Therewasnexttothe,aterriblelotoffactoriesinBrunswickthen.MillersRopeworkwasthebigone.PrestigeHosiery,ohtherewasseveralhosieryfactoriesdowninBrunswick,
35:00 butCoburg,ithadtheLincolnMills,thewoollenmill,andIdon’tthinktheyhaditwasjustresidential.
Hangon,yousaidtheLincolnMill?
LincolnMill.
That’sthathugechimney.
Isitstillthere?
It’sstillthere.
Yeah,well,itwastheonlybigemployerIthink.WestCoburgmoreorlessstopped;Idon’tknowwhetheryouknowMelvilleRoad,
35:30 andfromthereonitwasjustpaddockstotheEssendonAerodrome.Irememberitwasaschildrenweusedto…[SirCharles]Kingsford-Smithwouldflyinor[Bert]Hinklerorsomeoneandwe’dwalkrightacrossandoh,therewasmaybehalfadozenhouses,butyougotherenow,there’snotaspareblockbutinthesummerweusedto,youusedtohavetopay
36:00 togototheBrunswickBathssoweusedtogouptotheCoburgLakeandswim.Itwasquitegoodthen.Itwastheyhadabigdivingtowerandthat.You’dgetuponthedivingtowerandyoulookoverthewallatPentridgeandseealltheconvictsworkingintheirgarden.Thatwasabitofentertainment.
ThiswastheCoburgpool?
Yeah,inthelake.Isthelakestillthere?
Yeah,thelake’sstillthere.
Yeah,wellthat’swhereweusedtoswim,inthat.
Ohright.
Theyhad,youknow,theyhad
36:30 oneendofittheyhadallconcretestepsanditwas…
Yeah,they’restillthere.
They’restillthere?
Yeah,butthey’vegotcracksandthings.
Andtheyhadabigdivingtowerthere.
Ididn’tknowthat.
Yeah,andyouusedtogetupthereandyoucouldseeoverthefenceorifyouwalk,weusedtowalkhomesometimesweandtheconvicts’dbeoutworkinginthefrontoftheprisonandwewerefascinatedwiththeseblokes,youknow,theywerecriminalsbutIhadavery
37:00 badmatesometimes.We’dbewalkinghomefromthelake.Youknowitwas,oh,IsupposethreeorfourKsandyou’dcometothedispensaryandhe’dpinchabikefromoutthedispensaryanddinkme[ridedouble]homeandleavethebikedowntheresomewhereelsebutwegotchasedacoupleoftimessowestoppedthatbutitwas,whatIcanrememberseemedtobealong
37:30 hotsummercauseweusedtowalkeverydaytothelake.TherewasIdon’tthinktherewasanykiosktherethenbutitwasmuddywater,butwedidn’tmind.Itwas
Soitwascleanenoughtoswimin?
Ohyeah,well,Imeantherewerealotofpeopleswimmingthere.Itwasjust,youknow,itwastherewas,no,Idon’tknowwhetherthere’sanybathsinCoburgnowornot,anyswimmingpool.
Yeah,it’srightnexttothelake.
Yeah,well,therewasno,there’s
38:00 nothingtherethen.TheBrunswickpoolhadanOlympic-sizedoutdoorpoolwithcoldwaterandthenrightnextdoortheyhadanenclosed,whattheycalledtheladies’bath,anditwasabout25metresandwarm.Weusedtoswimtheretill,oh,nineo’clockatnightorsomething.You’dgodownandthey’dbeopeneduplateatnightandIcanalwaysremembergoingdownandthey’d
38:30 alwayshavethefightsontheradio,andweusedtoswimandlistentofightsbecauseatthattimetherewasafellacalledJackCarrollwhowasatopboxerandtheyusedtobringpeopleoutfromAmericatofighthimandthat.Sothatwasourentertainment.Itusedtocostusthreepencetogointothebathsandyoucouldstaythereaslongasyoulikedandonceyouwentoutyouhadpaytogetin
39:00 again,butIcanrememberweusedto,afterwork,thisiswhenwewereyouths,godownforaswimsometimesinthesummerbeforeIwenttoworkinthebakehouse.
BeinginCoburgLake,didyounoticethereareelmtreesthatwereplantedthereforsoldiersduringtheFirstWorldWar?Didyouknowaboutthat?
No.
Thosebigelmtrees.TheAvenueofHonour?
No,Ididn’tknow.No.Wherewasthat?
39:30 Atthelake,wasit?
Yeah.
No,Idon’trememberthat.
Therewasthosepathwayoftrees?
Oh.Yeahthat’dbeovertheothersideofthelakeIsuppose.Wecomefromthesouth.Weonlygottheoneside.
Ahit’snearthehill.
Isit?NoIwell,IprobablyknowbutIdon’trememberthem,no.
OhI’msurprised.Okay.
Theonlysoldiers’thingsIcanrememberisoverbetweenCoburgandthe
40:00 EssendonAerodrometherewasonelittlepatchofhouses,whichwerewarservicehomesIthink.Weyouknowweheard,“That’sthesoldiers’houses,”butIdon’trememberanythingmuchaboutsoldierswhenIwasakid.Ithinkwhenwewereatschooltheyweretakingupcollections,penniestobuildthisshrine.Icanrememberthat,ah,
40:30 butIdon’trememberevergoingtoanAnzacDaymarchoranythinglikethatwhenIwasakid.
We’llhavetohanginthereandjustchangethetape.
Tape2
00:31 WeweretalkingaboutCoburg.
OhaboutCoburgandBrunswick.
IsitverymuchaworkingclassareaIunderstand?
Ohitwasverymuchaworkingclass,Brunswickmorethan,CoburgwasalittlebitclassierthanBrunswick,let’sputitthatway,becauseBrunswickhadallthefactories.Imean,Icanremember,
01:00 youknowMurray’sChoc,wasn’tchocolatecreamycaramels,allthissortof,theyhadaconfectionarybusiness.Thetramwayshadabigdepotthere,thecabletramsinSydneyRoad,Brunswick.Idon’tknowwhetherthat’sstillthere.Itwas,youknow,andthendownatCarltonthatwasallsortofcommercialised.Theknittingmillsandthe
01:30 hosieryfactories,theropeworks.WhereasCoburg,asIsaid,IcanonlyrememberLincolnMills,mainyouknowalotofsmallbusinessesuparoundSydneyRoadandprobablyengineeringworksbutnothingbigatall.
IhadnoideathattheLincolnMillchimneyhadbeenaroundforthatlong.
Ohitwas.
Extraordinary.
Itwasanoldestablishedplacesince19…
02:00 it’dbe19…early1934,Iwentthereanditwaswellestablishedthen.Imeantheyusedtomakeblanketsandallthissortastuff.Isitstillworking,orisitjustthechimneythere?
I’mnotsure.
Ithinkit’sshutdown.
Yeah.Thechimney’sstillthere.
Yeah,butoh,itwasalandmark.Causeevenupthatway,Baker’sRoadanduptherewasverysparsely
02:30 settledthen.Therewasn’tagreatdealofthetramsusedtorun,IthinktheystillruntoBaker’sRoadbutthatwastheelectrictramsusedtocomeupMorelandRoadandjustturnaroundandgoupSydneyRoadwhereasthecabletramsusedtocomefromthecitytoMorelandRoad.Thatwastheterminus.AnyhowImeanandtheyhadtheconductorsanddrivers.Idon’tknowwhentheystopped.Theywerestillgoing,
03:00 thecabletrams,duringthewarIthink,andabigpubonthecorner,MorelandHotel.Oh,therewaslotsoflittlegangstersaboutthatareaatthetime.
Tellusaboutthosegangsters?
Ohwell,Iusedtosellpapersonthecornerorhelpafella,kidsellpapersonthecornerofSydneyRoadandMorelandRoad
03:30 andonthatcornerwastheMorelandHotelownedbyHughieMc-,ah,HughieMulcahy,andtherewasa
fellawithaclubfootandIjustcan’trememberhisnamenowbuthewasthegangsterbossaroundthere.Usedtoalwayscomeoutwithacoupleagirlsonhisarmoutofthepub.Thepubsshutatsixo’clockandtheythrewthemout.He’dalwaysgiveustwoshillingsforapaper,whichwas
04:00 apenny,ha’penny[halfpenny]Ithinkthen,tuppence.He’dthrowyoutwobobgiveyouthe,andtherestisyoursbutIdon’tknowwhat,IthinkhewasanSP[StartingPrice]bookieifthetruthisknown,astartingpricebookmaker,whichyouknowtheyweren’tlicensedoranything.Theyjustworkedontheirownbutwethoughthewasagangstercausehehadthisclubfootandhelookedevil,
04:30 butImeanthereweregangsaboutthenbuttheywereprettyharmlessyouknow.Theyonlyfoughtbetweenthemselves.ImeaninmyyoungdaysatroundthatwayIcanonlyrememberonemurder.Well,Imeannowyougetoneaday.TherewasabankmanagershotoutatBalwynandohthatwasaterriblething,
05:00 butwenever,neverhadagreatdealofvandalismoryouknowreallybadgangsaroundtheplace.Theyweregangsofyouthsusedtogetandhaveafightandthenthepoliceman’drideuponhisbikeandgivethemabootinthebumandawaythey’dgoandgethome.
Didyoueverhearofagang
05:30 called‘TheCrutches’?
Can’trememberthem,no.TheCrunchers?
No,TheCrutches.
No,no.No.NoIcan’t.TherewasdownroundCarltoniswheremostofthegangswere.Thebadgangs,razorgangstheyhaddownthere.Wekeptclearofthem.TheyweretheBouveryStreetboystheycalledthemneartheCarltonbreweries.Ah,oh,I’veforgottenhim,
06:00 ‘Squizzy’Taylor[Melbournegangsterofthe1930s]hewasaboutatthetime.SquizzyTaylor.
YeahI’veheardaboutSquizzyTaylor.Hewasaquiteabad…
Ohhewas.
Hewasamurdererwasn’the?
Hewas,ah,hewaswellknowndownheretoocauseIthinkhehadaholidayhomedownnearthebeachbutheand,ohIcan’trememberthenameofthefella,theyshoteachotherinthefinishanyhow.
06:30 Squizzybrokeintothisfella’sroom,oh,gettin’abittooold.Ican’trememberandthefellawasexpectinghim,youknow,andtheybothshoteachotheranyhow.TherewasbulletsflyingeverywherebuthewasonlyalittlesquirtofafellabutapparentlyyouknowheranallthecriminalactivityinMelbourneatthetime.Hewasa,youknow,
07:00 IwasonlyakidatthetimebutSquizzyTaylorwasallthetalkyouknow,“GetSquizzyTaylor.”No,Ican’trememberthefellaheshot.ItwasinFitzroybecausethebikeshopIworkedatwasinFitzroyanditwasatoughplaceinthosedays.
Fitzroywasatoughplace?
Ohyes.ImeantherewasafellacalledRedMaloney.Hewasaboxerbutalso,youknow,
07:30 theywereintoallsortsacrookthingsthereandyoucouldn’twalkupthestreetthereafterdarkonyourown.SoweusedtorideourbikehomefrominthefinishfromSmithStreetCollingwoodtoWestCoburgandwenevercametoanyharmbuttherewas,likeeverythingelse,therewastales.People
08:00 toldyouaboutalltheterriblethingsthathappenedbutIneveractuallysawthemthere.
WhataboutgangsinCoburgandBrunswick?Canyoutellusaboutthem?
Notreally.ImeanIcan’trememberanybiggangsthere.Imeanwe,asIsaid,wewenttothischurchandtheywouldhavecalledusagangbutImeanwenevergotuptoanybadthingsatall.Weitwasjusta
08:30 caseofitwasabunchofboysandabunchofgirlsandtheywenteverywheretogether.Weplayedcrickettogether.WeplayedfootballtogetherandallthegirlsandboysplayedtennisonaSunday.Theywenttochurch,asIsaid,mainlybecauseofthesocialactivitiesandIsupposelookingbackonit,itdidkeepusoutoftroublebecausetheoldminister,hewasaniceoldblokeandhe,youknow,
09:00 theyusedtolookafterusandwehadenoughtodonottogetbored.Imean,oneofmemates,hehadapianolaandIdon’tknowwhetheryouknowwhatapianolais.It’sapianowithapumpandyou’dpumpthatandithadarollofthatusedtoplaymusic.Youdidn’thavetobeabletoplayit.Youpumpedthething,therollwentroundandthensomehoworotherthemechanism
09:30 playedthemusicbutweusedtogothereandhavesing-songs.Anothermatehadabilliardtable,sowe’dgofromtownandhaveagameofbilliardswithhim.Bythattimeitwaseighto’clockandwe’dgo
tothedanceandtherewasneverany,ohoccasionallyyou’dgetblokesthrowingstonesattheelectriclightglobesandbreakin’them.Thatwouldbeabouttheworstthingthatwouldhappen.
10:00 Oriftheywereextrainalivelymoodtheymightthrowstonesontheroofsofhousesandyou’drunlikemaddowntheroad.You’dbejustoutofbreathandthey’dthrowanotherstartonanotherroofsoyouhadtokeeprunning,butgraffitiwas,no,Idon’trememberanyofthatsortofstufforwell,thethingnowadaysisthattheycan
10:30 getintotrouble,jumpintoacarandthey’regone.Wecouldn’tdothat.We’dstillbeintheareaandifwe’dhavegotintoanytroubletheywouldhavefoundus.
Didyougetintotroublemuch?
Ahno,notreally.No.Thatyouknowtherewasneveranypolicemancomingknockinginthedoor,asIsaid.Outsideofsomeonemightbreakatastreetlight,ah,andthrowabrickonaroof.That’sallaboutallwedid.
11:00 SometimeonaSaturdaynightIrememberwhenthecricketseasonwason,they’dhavetotakethescoresforthedaydowntothesecretaryoftheassociation,wholiveddownBrunswick.We’dwalkallthewaydownthereandcomebackandthebigpartoftheeveningwasjuststoppingandbuyinganiceblock.Thatwasit.That’saboutallyoucouldafford.You’daboutthattimetoowhereanotherfadcomeoutwaswhatthey’dcallminiaturegolf
11:30 andweusedto,ohhereandtherethey’dhavetheselittlegolfyouknow,Idon’tknowwhatyou’dcallthemnowbuttheywerejustputtinggreensyouknowatvariousplaces.You’dpaythreepenceorsomethingforaround.Thatwasanotherentertainmentwehad,butthatwasit.Dances,pictures.
Tellusaboutthedances?
Theyweregood.
12:00 Thereweremany,many,likeeachgroup,youknowlike,thestateschoolmighthaveadance.We’dgotoWestCoburgStateSchoolandthey’dhave,eachonehadalivebandyouknow.There’dbesomeoneplayingasaxophone,someoneplayingthepianoandsomeoneplayingthedrums.That’dbeaboutthemost.They’dsupplyyouwithsupperandthen
12:30 weusedtocatchthetramuptotheHolyTrinityHallupnearBellStreetsomewhereanditwasabigturnout.Youknowitwasabighall.They’dhadabigorchestrathere.TheymighthavesevenoreightinitandIthinkweusedtopayashillingtogointoit.Itwaseighto’clock,finishat11andthenyou’dgohometobed.Imean
13:00 therewouldbe,ifyouwentroundthestreetsaftermidnight,youwouldn’tfindanybody.Nothing’dbeopenandeveryone’dbegonehometobed.Coursethepubsusedtoshutatsixo’clocksoallthedrunks’dbehomeinbedbyeightornine.Thentherewas,generallyspeakingyouwere,therewouldbeanItalianrestaurant.They’dbeopentill10or11o’clockafterthedanceandyou’dgoandhaveabitofsupper
13:30 butnightlifewasprettyscarce.Imean,Sundaystherewasnothing.WeusedtogotoMelbournesometimesyouknow.Well,itwasprettylivelybutnothingonaSunday.Nothing.Therewasnohotelsopen.Nowinebars.Therewasnodances.Youcouldgotothezoo.That’saboutallbutweusedtogoinforahaircutsometimes
14:00 onaSaturdaymorningat,theplaceisnotthereanymore,LondonStores.Theyhadabigdepartmentstoreuptop.Underneathwasthebarbershopandthere’dbeabout10chairstheregoingflatoutandwe’dhaveahaircutandthenwe’dgotoonthecornerofElizabethStreetandCollinsStreetwastheLondonHotel.We’dhavelunchthere.Threeshillingsforathree-coursemeal.
14:30 Thenwe’dheadhometoplayfootballorplaycricketorwhateverbutitwasthatwasabouttheextentofthesociallife.TherewascourseSaturdaynightwasgoodinMelbourne.ImeanyouhadTheTivoli,whichwasavarietyshow.FurtherupthestreetwasanothervarietyshowcalledTheBijou.TheyhadtheCapitolTheatre
15:00 andthey,about1933theybuilttheStateTheatreandIthinkit’scalledTheForumnow.Itwasgreat.Youcouldsitthereandyoucouldseetheskybutcomehalfpast11thepictureswereoverandeveryoneheadedhome.Therewasnohangingaroundthestreets.Thecops’dmoveyouoniftheysawanygroupsformingafterabout11o’clock.
15:30 Whatwouldthecopsdo?
Ohjusttellyoutogethome.Imeanthey’dnevereverarrestyou.They,youknow,ifthey,blokes,welltheymightgetsomeonekickin’afuss.They’drideupontheirbikeandtheoldcopperonlyhadabike.Oh,theyhadaflyingsquadthenbuttheyweren’tinterestedinyoungpeople.Theseblokes,thecoppers’djusttellyoutogethomeandifyoudidn’tgethomethey’dgiveyouabootandoffyou’dgo,but
16:00 Idon’trememberanyoneeverbeinghauleduporyoudidn’tneedto.Theysawthecoppercomeand
youwenthome.Thatwasit.Didn’targuewiththem.Theygenerallywerebigrough,toughsortablokesbutfairyouknow.Ifyouweren’tdoinganything,theywouldn’tworryyoubutiftheythoughtyouwerelookingabitsuspiciousthey’dbreakitupandsendyouhomeandtherewasnoaftermathatall.
16:30 ThenMelbournedidcomealivethereatone1934wasthecentenaryofMelbourneandohtheyhadcarnivalsandhadliketheMoomba[annualfestival]now.Rightalongtheriverbanktheyhadcarnivalseverynight.WeusedtogotothatandNewYear’s
17:00 EveusedtobedownthroughLunaPark,wasabignight.Youcouldn’tmoveinStKildaonNewYear’sEvewith,andIgotanidea,well,weneverdrank,whichwasstrangeenough.Imeanweneverthoughtofgoin’toapub.Notbecauseweweretoogood.Isupposewecouldn’tafforditbutI’vegotanideathatonNewYear’sEvethepubsinStKildastayedopenandLunaParkwasreallycrowded
17:30 inthosedays.Youcouldn’twalkupthestreetandIimaginethere’snottoomanygotoLunaParknow.We,yeah,ohnowIcometothinkofit,youknowtherewasnoone,wemighthaveabeeroccasionally.We’dgotoadanceandsometimesthey’dhavebeeronthetablebutwe,Ican’trememberevergoingtoapubwiththeseblokes,
18:00 youknow.Theyitjustwasn’tconsideredeven.We,we’dgotoadance.Wouldn’tthinkofhavin’adrinkyouknow.Didn’tneedto.Idon’tknowwhy.Imeantheycouldn’tgotoadancenowadayswithouthavin’adrinkandwewouldn’teitherbutbeerwasashillingabottle,whichisyouknowalottamoneyinthosedays.Ithink
18:30 Richmondbeerwasninepenceabottle.That’sninecents.IknowitwasnineshillingsadozenoftheRichmondbeer.
Wereyouanavidreader?
Yes.
Telluswhatyouwouldgenerallyread?
Well,I’dreadthelabelsoffjamtinsifIcouldn’tfindanythingelse,butinthosedaystherewasnopubliclibraries.
19:00 Peopleusedtosetupalibraryintheirshopandyouusedtohavetogoandpaythreepenceforabookandtakeithome.
Sorry,peopleusedtosetuplibrariesinashop?
Yeah,youknow,itwasaprivateenterprisereally.Youknowaperson,oh,evenrightuptillafterthewarinDandenongtherewasaladyusedtohavealibrary,astheycallit,andtheywereashopwithbooksallroundtheplace.You’djointhem.Ithink,Idon’tknow,Ithinkyou
19:30 mighthavehadtopayashillingtojoinandthreepenceabookandIjustdon’trememberwhenthecouncilstartedhavinglibraries.Maybetheyhad‘emallalong,Idon’tknow,butIknowweusedtoalwaysgo,Iusedtoalwaysreadcowboybooks.Youknow,murderyarns,butI’vealwayshadbooks
20:00 toreadandmadeupforthelackofeducationIsupposewithwhatI’veread,youknow.LikeImeanasIgotolderIreadotherbooksbutasakidI’dreadwellweusedtohavecomics,thosedays.Theyusedtocomeoutonceaweek.LotofcomicscamefromEngland.Therewasn’tmanyAustralian;IthinkallcamefromEngland.TigerTimandTheStartlerand
20:30 FilmFunbuttheywereallEnglishpublications.I’mprettysuretherewasn’tanyAustralianones.
Whataboutnewspapers?Didyoureadnewspapers?
Yes,yes.
Whichones?
MostlyTheSportingGlobe.ItusedtocomeoutSaturdaynightandWednesday.Saturdaynightyou’dgotothepicturesandbythetimeyougottothepictures
21:00 TheSportingGlobe’dbeonthegroundwithalltheday’sresultsandWednesdaywasmoreorlessa,youknow,afillin.They’dhaveallthestoriesaboutdifferentpeoplebutitwasn’tlikenow.Everydaythere’sracesoryouknowdifferentthingson.TherewereonlyracesonSaturdaythenmostly.SoIusedtoreadthat.
21:30 Iusedtogetthedailypapers,yes,butIdon’trememberreadingthemagreatlotuntilIgottothe20,21stage.Iwasinthearmybythen.WeusedtoreadthepaperbuttherewasinthosedaysitusedtobeTheSuninthe,andTheAgeinthemorning,
22:00 TheHeraldatnightandforashortperiodtheyhadapapercalledTheStar.Cameoutatnightbutitfellbythewayside.Ijustdon’tknowwhatIwasinterestednowcometothinkaboutreadingthepaperbutIread‘emallbutit…
Whatsortoftopicsinterestedyou?
Whether…
Canyoutelluswhattypeoftopicsinterestedyou?Likesayforinstance
Well…
Wereyouinterested
22:30 inwhatwashappeningoverseas?Thewars?
Military?I’dbeinterestedinarmiesandwarsinthosedays.Sportingthings.Oh,general,Iwasinterestedingeneralsubjects.ImeanIusedtoreadallabouttheislands,theexplorers.YouknowliketheAustralianexplorers
23:00 butwell,like,youknowIgotbooksoverthere.Myolduncle,hewasagreatreader.TheScotsman,youknow.He,I’vegotbooksthereI’vebeentryin’toread‘emforabout30yearsandhebloodygotahistoryofAustraliainthreevolumesandit’sterriblyhardtoploughthrough,butheand
23:30 healsoboughtwhattheycallTheHeraldSunBook.ItwastheworksofHenryLawsonandIreadthosethroughandthatwasallaboutthegoldfieldsandmateshipanddroversandIreadwasveryinterestedinthat.Wasn’tsointerestedinpoetrybut
24:00 theyouknowtheexploringofAustraliawasalwaysofgreatinteresttome.Thehistoryofanycountryreally.IusedtoreadalotofBritishhistorybecausemyolduncle,hehadaprettyfairsortofalibrary.Yeah.
Didyouknowaboutwhatwastakingplaceoverseas?
24:30 Not…
Canyoutelluswhatyouknew?
NotwhenIwasveryyoung.Whenitgotuptoroundaboutthe18,Iwent,ohwell,weknewthetestcricketyouknowthatsortathing.Thatwastheonlythingthatinterestedus.Weusedtolistenontheradio.UsedtolistenallnightinthosedaystothecricketinEngland.Theyusedto,peopleusedtogatherinahouseandhaveanallnightpartywhilethecricketwasonbutuntil
25:00 theystartedyouknowlikethewarinSpainandthecivilwarinSpain,Irememberreadingaboutthat.TheItalianinvasionofEthiopia.Thatsortofhithome,butoh,you’dgetlikewhenLindberg[Americanpioneeraviator]flewfromAmericatoIrelandintheplanethatattractedafair
25:30 bitofattentionbuttodayyouknowyougetalltheirlocalnewsmoreorlessfromEngland.ThatnevercameintoitasfarasIwasconcerned.Maybeyou’dgetthebighorseraces.Idon’tknow.Iwasn’tveryinterestedinhorses.SoIdon’tremember,ah,youwouldn’tIdon’tthinktherewasagreatlotinourpapersabout‘em.Imean
26:00 I’mjusttryingtothinkwhowastheprimeminister.WellIcouldn’ttellyawhowasthePrimeMinisterofEnglanduntiljustbeforethewarwhenChamberlainwas,butIcan’tremember,youknow,itwasofnoconsequenceIsupposetouswhowasprimeministerandnowadaysIsuppose,like,ImeanI’vegotaletterthereyouknowfrommyyoungnephewinScotlandandthatsortathing.Theykeepyouup
26:30 todatewiththosethings,butnottheeverydayeventsinEngland,LondonandScotland.
CanyoutelluswhatyouknewabouttheSpanishCivilWar?
About?
TheSpanishCivilWar?
Notalot.IknewthatFranco[GeneralFranciscoFranco]wasandthegovernmentwereatit.Iknewthatitwassomethingtodowiththe
27:00 communistsandthecommunistswereenlistingtogoandfightthere.Theywerenotallcommunistsbutthesocialists,whichremindsmeofyou’retalkingaboutduringtheDepression.ThecommunistsinSydneyRoadBrunswicktheyusedtoalwaysbekickingupahellofafuss.Theyusedto,IrememberoneFridaynighttheyhada
27:30 cageonwheels.Liketheyhadacagefromthezooandthesecommunists’dgetinsidethecage.They’dtowthecagedownthestreetandleaveitthereandhe’dberantingandravingandthepolicecouldn’tgetathimbecausehewasinthiscageandtheycouldn’tstopitandthatwenton,oh,formanymonths,oryearsIsuppose.Well,duringtheDepressionthecommunistswereveryvocal
28:00 aroundBrunswick.
Yes,youwerespeakingaboutthecommunists
Wellthey…
who’djumpinacage.
Well,theydidn’tmeanmuchtomebecauseyouknowwewere15to18butweknew,oh,theywerebadmenandtheywerecausingtroublesandtheyreallyyouknowitwasabreedinggroundforthemduringtheDepression.Imean,therewassomanypeopleoutofworkandtheyhadnothing
28:30 andthenafewhadthelot.Imeanwewere,oh,asfarasourfamilygoesweweren’tbadlyoffbecausewehadthebakehouse.Wealwayshadenoughtoeat.Didn’thavealottamoneyapparentlybutalottathepeopledownBrunswickandthat,youknow,theyweredesperate.Therewasnosuchthingasthedole.Theyhad
29:00 somesortof,Ithinkitwascalled‘thesustenance’,see,andtheyusedtohavetogoandworkandthey’dgive‘emticketsforfoodyouknowandthissortathing.Well,thatwasjustabreedinggroundforcommunism.
WastherealotofcommunistsinBrunswick?InCoburgarea?
Ithinkso.IthinkImeantheyseemedtobe,butIwasn’treallyinvolvedwiththem.Theydidn’tworrymebutIcanalwaysremembertheseweregettingintothecageandtheywerethey
29:30 wouldroarandrantandgocrookatthegovernment.
Whatwouldtheysay?
Ican’tremembernow,youknow.HalfofitIdidn’tseealotofit.Halfofitwashearsay,soitmaynotawentonatall,butIknowthattheyhadtheytowedthesebigironbarcagesandthepoliceweredesperate.Theycouldn’tgetintostophimbuttheyfinishedup,I
30:00 thinktheytowedthethingawayagainwiththeblokestillinside.Took‘emawayouttatheway,butthatwasrightdowntheotherendofBrunswicknearthetownhallandplacesdownDawsonStreetway,butFridaynightsmostlyIwasworkinginthebakehousesoIwasn’tinanyofthatsortofstuff.
Didyou,soweweretalkingaboutthe
30:30 SpanishCivilWar.
Yep.
YousaidthatyouknewthatsomecommunistsfromAustraliahadgone…
Idon’tknowwhetheritwasAustralia.Iknewtheywentacross,socialistsfromBritain.NowIcouldn’tsayaboutcommunistsfromAustraliabutbecausethatwasjustpriortotheSecondWorldWarstartedandsortof,welostcontactwiththemonce
31:00 Australiadeclaredwar.Itwastheendofouryouthreallybecauseyouknowwehadthisgangoffellas.WelltheywentthiswayandthatwayandIhaven’tseensomeof‘emsince.Someof‘em,notmanyof‘emalivenowbutwekeptintouchbutsomejoinedthearmy,somejoinedthenavy,somejoinedtheairforceandsomejoinednothingand
31:30 sowe,Ididn’tknowalotabouttheSpanish[Civil]Warbutweknewtherewasoneonyouknow.WeknewthatMussolini[BenitoMussolini],theItaliandictator,he’dinvadedEthiopia.WellthatwasalljustpriortotheSecondWorldWar.
NowtelluswhatyouthoughtaboutMussoliniandFranco?
Theywerebadmen.That’saboutallweknew.Wereally,
32:00 Icouldn’thavetoldyoutheirhistoryatanystage.ImeanweknewthatFrancowas,I’mnottoosurewhatsidehewasonintheSpanishWarbuthewasthenandweknewthatMussoliniwasleadingtheblackshirtsinItalyandIdon’trememberagreatlotaboutHitlertobeperfectlyhonestup
32:30 tilthewarstarted.WeknewmoreaboutMussoliniandIcan’tremembermuchaboutHitlereventhoughhemustabeeninthepaperbecausefrom1933onhewas‘Reichmeister’[Chancellor]whatevertheycallit.HewasinchargeofGermanybutIcanrememberthatChamberlain
33:00 goingacrosstohaveaconferencewithhimandcomingbackandsaying,“It’speaceinourtime,”youknow,andHitlerwasjustwaitinghischanceandIcanrememberthenightthattheydeclaredwarandMenzies[PrimeMinisterRobertMenzies],IwasmakingthedoughinthebakehouseandwehadaradiointhereandMenziescomeon
33:30 tosaythatwewereatwarandIhadafriendwhowasinthemilitiaandoh,heusedtodressupandlovedtheuniformandhecomeinandhewascryin’andhesaid,“Idon’twannagotowar.”Isaid,“Well,whatareyoudoin’inthemilitia?”Youknow.Anyhow,eventuallyhewenttowarandhegotusedtoit.
BeforewegotowardstheSecondWorldWar,canyoutellushowyousawtheSpanishCivilWar?Wasit
34:00 somethinglikedemocracyversusfascism?
Idon’trememberwhetherweworriedaboutwhatitwasabout.TherewasawaronandwewereinterestedthatwaybutIdon’tremembereveranalysing,youknow,whattheywerefightingabout.Iprobablydidknow,butIcan’tremember.
WastherealotofinformationinthenewspapersabouttheSpanishCivilWar?
Hey?
Wastherealotofinformationinthenewspapers?
Oh,Iimagineinthepapersbut
34:30 Ican’treallysaythatIknewwhattheywerefightingabout.Iknewtheywerefightingandthatinterestedmeand,asIsay,weknewtheItalianswerebeingsubduingtheEthiopians,thesepoorblackfellasthathadnothing,butIcan’trecallhavingknowledgeofwhytheywerefightingin
35:00 Spainandhalfofthetimeweweren’ttooconcernedaboutwhywewerefightin’Hitlereither.Wejust,hewastherebutitmustabeeninthepapersandIprobablyreadaboutit,butit’sgone.He…
Youhadalso
35:30 saidthatyoujoinedthemilitiain1938?Wasit1938?
Yes.
Isthatwhatyousaid?
Therewas,wellthemilitiawasalwaysthereanditwasalmostthetraditioninthosedays.Youjoinedthemilitia.Therewastheartillery,theinfantryandIhadamate,JackPeters,andIdon’tknowhowhegotontoitbuthejoined,hesaidtome,“Comeon.We’llgoandjoin
36:00 theScotties.”Well,IbeingScotch,IthoughtthatwasagoodideaandsointhosedaystheVictorianScottishwereatinSturtRoadatSouthMelbourneandwewentdown.Wejoinedupandittookawhilebecausetheywouldn’tjusttakeanybodyinthosedays.Theywerealittlebitfussy.Sowewentdownandwejoinedupanditmustabeenfairlylatein1938
36:30 andthentheygaveyouarifleandabayonetandkiltsandohallsortsofequipment.Weusedtogoonceaweekthrough(UNCLEAR)andonceayeartherewasaboutafortnight’scamp.They’dgouptoSeymourandhaveacampandthat,
37:00 butgenerallyspeakingitwasjusttheonecoupleofhourseveryweek.Ah,youwerewelltrained.Imeanitwasmostlyweapontraining.They’dhavehadoldLewis[light]machinegunsand303[LeeEnfield0.303inchcalibre]riflesandthenwhenwarwasdeclaredtherewasagreathiveofactivity.Theycalledusupandwehadtoparade.
37:30 Oh,forsomereasonorotheritwasjustbeforethattheyshiftedfromSouthMelbourneovertoRichmondfortheirdrillhall,Idon’tknowwhy,andweusedtohavetogoabitfurther.You’velosthim.He’soverreadin’mebooks.Andyouwerewelltrainedinthemilitia.Therewasnodoubtaboutthat.Wewereready
38:00 whenthewarwasdeclared.Youknowthemilitiawerereadytogobutcourseyouweren’tallowedtogooutofAustraliainmilitia.Iknowthatwe,ohI’veforgottennow,oldcolonel’sname,butwhenthewarstartedandwewentinforamonthatPortseatoguardtheheadsIthink,and
38:30 therewasabiggundownatPortNepean.Iknowtheyusedtofirethatinthereandtheyusedtositusunderneathitandfireit.“Getusedtothenoise,”theysaidandthentheofficersweremostlyoldblokes,youknow,oldFirstWarfellasandtheyweretoooldtogototheSecondWorldWar,
39:00 andwehadanoldcolonel,andtheonlywayheworkedouthecouldgettherewastotakethewholeregimentwithhim.Iftheyallvolunteeredtogo,hewouldabeenabletogotothewar,andsoheputittothembutalotof‘emdidn’twanttogotowaratall.Theyonlywantedtobeprettysoldiers.Sotheywouldn’tjoinupandthepooroldcolonel,IthinkhisnamewasCook,henevergot
39:30 tothewar,butpre-warlikeitwasverythoroughtraining.There’snodoubtthatwhenthewarstarted,asIsaid,wewerereadytogo.
Wasit,canIinterruptyouandaskyou,theVictorianScottishRegiment,generallyweremostpeopleinthereactuallyfromaScottishbackground?Isthat…?
Ithinkso.Imeanit’s,theywereallAustralians
40:00 butwewereaffiliatedwiththeGordonHighlandersinScotland.TheyusedtheGordonHighlandtartanandthesporranandwhatnot,butoh,therewasIwouldsay90percentofthemhadsomebackgroundtoScotland,yes.Theyhadthepipebandsandeverythingelse
40:30 but…
IsitwasthisyourfirstcontactwithWorldWarIveterans?
No.I’lltellyouweusedtogoSundayschoolandoneoftheSundayschoolteachers,afellacalledNormCalder,andhewasaFirstWorldWarveteranyouknowandheusedtodesperatelytryus,“Don’tgotowar,”youknow.Imeanhehad,hewasinFranceandhe
41:00 wasdesperateforusnottogotowar.Ofcourseitdidn’tmakeanydifferencetous.
Whenyousay‘desperate’,canyoutelluswhatyoumeanexactly?Whatdidhedo?
Justtriedtoconvinceusthatwarwasfutile.Itwashorrible.Asfarashewasconcerned,itdidn’tsolveanythingbuthehadsuchatimeinthetrenchesinFrance
41:30 thatitjust,youknow,andImeanalotof‘emdidcomebackbrokenmenandhewastheonlyFirstWorldWardiggerthatI’vemetbeforeIwenttothemilitia.
Whatwashisname?
NormanCalder.Helivedacrosstheroadfromuswherewelivedandalovelyfella.YouknowImeanhewasso
42:00 sincerethatweshouldn’tgoto…
Tape3
00:31 We’rerecordingnow.YeahsowhatshouldIstartwith?Okay,weleftoffwithnotwiththewarbeginning.WithyoujoiningtheVictorianScottishRegiment.
Yeah,well,asIsaid…
Tellingusaboutthat.
Youknowwewerewellfittedout,welltrained.Onceaweekwithayearly,fortnightlycamp,whichIthinkIonlywent
01:00 toaboutonebeforethewarstarted.Thenwhenwar’sdeclaredwithin,oh,twoorthreeweekswewerecalledupandweweresenttoPortsea.WecampedonthePortseagolfcourse,whichdidn’tpleasemanyoftheresidents.Weweregreatbootsoveralltheirgreensandthat,butthattrainingwasthemostof
01:30 ourofficerswereoldFirstWorldWarblokesandmostofthetrainingwasFirstWorldWarstuff.Wedugtrenchesandallovertheplaceanditwasallstaticwarfare.Nothingtowhatwereallystruck,so.
Whatdidtheyteachyouintermsofinfantrytacticsatthetime?
ItwasifIrememberrightlytheywerestill
02:00 operatingintheoldfours.Usedtofourcolumnsinsteadofthreelateron.We,well,oneexerciseIrememberthebattalionwassplitinhalf.OnehalfdefendedthetownofPortseawhiletheotherhalfattackedit.MyjobwasinthePortseapub,whichwasveryhandybut
02:30 andthenyougotalotoftrenchwarfare.OurmachinegunswereoldLewisguns,whichwereFirstWorldWarweapons.Itwasjustnotmuchopenwarfare.IcanalwaysremembertheysentustothepicturesonenighttowatchafilmcalledGungaDin,[BritishinIndia,basedonRudyardKipling]simplybecause
03:00 ithadaanexampleofabattaliongoingalongandallofasuddensplittingupintosectionsinarrowheadformationandtheydiditwellonthefilmandtheysentustoseethattoseewhat’stobedone.Butwewereonlythereamonthanditwasmoreorlessalotofrecruitsgetting‘emkittedoutandgettingalittlebitofcoordinationIsupposebetweenthedifferent
03:30 sections,platoonsandcompanies.ThenwecomehometowardstheendofNovemberormaybeearlyDecember,Ijustdon’tremember,butwewerehomeforChristmasandtowardsinJanuaryweweresentagaintocampatMountMarthaandMountMarthacampwas
04:00 thestartofreallyintensetrainingasfarastheinfantrywent.Wedidmarching,drill,rifleworkandatonestagethereandIrememberitwasMarch,thefirstweekinMarch,andeverydaywas100[degrees-temperature]andtheystartedusoffonabigmanoeuvre,battalionmanoeuvrestheycalledit,rightaround
04:30 thepeninsulawewalked.MarchedtoRosebud.FromRosebudacrosstoFlindersandFlindersupandittookusaweekandtheyfinishedupwithdoingaforcednightmarchofabout20-oddmileoverthelastnight.Thatreallytoppedoffourtrainingandbythetimethatthreemonthswasup
05:00 Ifeeltherewasn’tmuchmorewecouldlearnasfarasmilitarytactics,weapons,ah,andwellwewerereallyfittoo,butasIsaid,theoldcoloneltriedtogetustojointheAIFasabattalionbuthalfofthemwouldn’tgo,sothat
05:30 foiledthat.ThenitwasinAprilthatthreemonthsfinished.Weonlyusedtoget,Ithink,adayoffeverycoupleaweeks,youknow,therewasnohomeleave.Sowewereworkingtheresevendaysaweek.Alotofthetimewasspentwithpulling
06:00 machinegunstopiecesandlearningworkingwiththeartillery.Workingwiththemortarsection.Marching.Soafterthreemonthswecamehomeagainanditfollowedtheoldroutineofparadeonceamonth.WegotbackinAprilandthenIjoinedtheAIFinMay,
06:30 youknow.Sodoyouwantmetogoonwiththat?Fromthereoryou’vegotanyquestionsabout…
I’minterestedtoknowaboutthematesyouhadformedmateyouknowthemateshipyouhadformedwiththepeoplefromtheVictorianScottishRegiment?
Ahyeah,well…
Ifyoucouldtellusmoreabout…
Yeah,Ihad,Ihadoneparticularmate,afellacalledBillFraserandthefellathatIjoinedupwith,JackyPeters.Nowhe
07:00 wasatPortseawithusbutsomehoworotherhedroppedoutofitafterthen.Idon’tthinkheeverhadanymoretodowiththemilitaryafterthatbutBillFraserandI,he’stheonlyoneIreallygotcloseto,andwhenIjoinedtheAIFhejoined,buthewenttoWestAustraliaandasfarasIknowhe’sstilloverthere.
07:30 Isawhimonceafterthewar.HecameoverbuthestartedabusinessoverthereandIthinkhe’s,ifhe’sstillalive,he’soverthere.Ilostcontactwithhim.Yes,onetheoneourcorporalintheScottishwasaverykeenandaverycleverman.HegotacorporalandwhenIjoined
08:00 thecommandostherehewas,hewasalieutenantinourcompany,ablokecalledDonRussell.HeeventuallygotacaptainandhegotkilledinNewGuinea.Sohe’donlybeabout23whenhegotkilledbuthewasaproductoftheScottish.Areal,Icouldyouknowhewaskeen.Hewasalwaysthefirstonetostartdiggin’atrenchandthat,butI
08:30 neverkeptanycontactwithanyafterthat.WhenIwenttotheAIF,itwassortoftheendofthateraasfarasIwasconcerned.Idon’tthinkevenBillFraser,Idon’tthinkIheardfromhimwhilethewarwason.Ican’tremember.Idon’tthinkIheardfromhim.JustafterthewarIhadabriefreunion
09:00 withhimbutno,unfortunatelytosay,Ididn’tmakeanyrealfriendsintheScottish.
I’malsointerestedtoknowthefriendships,wellImeantheacquaintancesyoucouldsayyou’dstruckupwiththeFirstWorldWarofficers.
Yeahwellthey
09:30 nevermingledwiththemenatall.ImeanyouknowlateronintheIndy[Independent(company)],commandos,theofficersandmenwerejustone,theyhadtobe,butthesetheofficersinthemilitiawereadifferentclassyouknow.TheysortofwereabitabovetheprivatesandIdon’tremembereveranyofthemcominghavingadrink,
10:00 havingatalk.Imeantheywerethereduringparade,onparade.Afterthattherewasnocontactwiththematall.
Didyoudislikethatclassdistinction?
No,Ididn’t.Imean,Isupposein,asIsay,mostofthesemilitiaoneswereoldFirstWorldWarmen.Well,theyweremature.Sowedidn’treallylooktojoinwiththem.ImeanourNCOs[NonCommissionedOfficers]
10:30 wereofourilk,wereourgeneration,buttherewereafewyoungofficersbuttheydidn’twanttomixwithusandIdon’trecallbeingsorrythattheydidn’tmixwithusbecausewegotonalrightwiththeotherranks.
11:00 Inthemilitiaofcoursetherewasn’tagreatdeal,youknow,therewasnosuchthingasawetcanteen[bar].Theofficers’mess,theyhadbeer.Thesergeants’mess,theyhadbeer,andtheystucktogether,buttheprivatestheyneverhadanythingatallthatway,sothatcutdownthesocialisingabitIsuppose.Ijustcan’trememberwhatwedid.Ourspare,only
11:30 diversionIcanrememberwasoneSundayIwassupposedtobeonkitchendutiesandIknewacoupleoffellasinthe,what,thetransportsection.Well,itwasallhorses.Therewasnomotors[cars]andtheyusedtotaketheofficers,whenwewalkedtheofficersusedtoridehorsesandthesetransportblokesusedtotaketheofficers’horsesforanexerciseonSunday
12:00 andtheysaidtome,“Ohcomeon.We’llgoforaride.”Well,I’dneverbeenonahorseinmelifebutIgotononeandwerodenearlyintoMorningtonandwerodebackandwhenIgotbackthesergeantmajor’swaitin’formethere,wantedtoknowwhyIwasn’tworkin’inthekitchen,andsoIwasworkin’inthekitchenforalongwhileafterthat,butIcanremember
12:30 weusedtogetSaturdayafternoonoffIthinkandweusedtosometimescomeintoMorningtonorevenintoFrankston,butthatwasasfaraswewent.AndSundays,Sundaywasvisitors’daybutIneverhadanyvisitors.Iwassoweusedtojustmuckaroundinthetentsbutnogreatrecollectionofany
13:00 sortofyouknowsportsoranythingweplayedoninourtimeoff.Idon’tknowwhatwedid.
Beforewemoveontoanythingelse,I’dliketoaskyouhowyouendedupjoiningtheAIFfromtheVictorianScottish?
Well…
Canyouwalkusthroughthatplease?
IhavetosaythatthetouchoflifeIhadwiththemilitiasuitedme
13:30 andatthetimeyouknoweveryonewas,wellnoteverybodybutagreatlottapeoplewerejoiningthearmy,AIF.IfinishedtrainingatMountMarthaandbythattimethebusiness,bakerybusinesshadbeensold.SoIhadnothingtogobacktothereandIwasmopingaboutforaboutthreeweeksand
14:00 suddenlyIjustup,andyouusedtogototheFlindersStreetStation.Theyhadaticketboxthereandtherewasasergeantinthereandyoucouldenlistthere.Imean,causeinsidetheyhadalittlegraphfivefoot,fivefootsixyouknow,tomeasureyouasyou’restandingup,andImustabeencrouchin’down‘causeIthinkhehadmeinaboutfivefootnine,butIcommittedmyselftothe
14:30 armythen.Iwentinthereandtheytookyourparticulars,I’lltellyou,andthentheyusedtosendyoutotheSturtStreetdrillhallandtherewasadoctorthere,andexamineyou,see.SothefirsttimeItried,that’swhyIjustrememberwhyIdidn’tthefirsttimeItriedtojoin,Iwentdown.IturnedupatFridaynight.In
15:00 thebakehouseI’ddevelopedvaricoseveinsandsoIgotdowntothemedicalofficeratSturtStreetandheknockedmeback.Hesaid,“Youcan’tgointhearmywiththoselegs,”andoneofmymatesoftheVictorianScottishwasanorderlyattheSturtStreetandIsaidtohim,“Oh,they’veputmeout.”Hesaid,“Well,I’lltellyouwhat,”hesaid,“waittillit’sacold,darkday,”hesaid,“andI’llput
15:30 youintoadoctorthatcan’tseetoowell.”Anyhow,Ihadtogotothehospital.Ihadacoupleofinjections,whichdidn’tdomuch,andIturnedupandIsawmemateandhesaid,“Alright,”andheputmeandIgotthroughtherenoworriesatallandsothenwehadtogoouttoCaulfieldandhaveanotherexaminationbuttheyneverlookedatmelegs,soIwasin.
16:00 Itoldyouaboutthatchapthatcameintothebakehousewhenthewarrose.Hewasinthemilitiaandhewascrying.Hedidn’twanttogo.Well,hehadjoinedtheASC[AustralianServiceCorps]andhewasadriverandhesaidtome,“GetintotheASC”hesaid,“That’llbealright.”SotheyaskeduswherewewantedtogoandIsaid,“TheASC.”SotheysentmeuptoPuckapunyalandwegotthereandthentheysaid,“Wellwhatcanyoudo?”
16:30 Isaid,“Wellnothing.”Hesaid,“Canyoudriveacar?”Isaid,“No.Can’tdriveatruck.”Isaid,“Icanshootagun.”Hesaid,“Wedon’twantthat.Wewantdrivers.”SoIwasthereforaboutthreeweeksanditwasacoldwetmuddyhole.Itwasaterribleplace.Sotheysentme,theysaid,“Well,you’reuseless”,sentmebacktoCaulfieldandfromtheretheysentustoacampatDandenong.
17:00 Well,thatwastheworstcampyou’deversee.Inthosedays,theyusedtohavepigpensalloutintheopenwithbluestonefloorsandthat’swhereweslept,inthepigpensonthisbluestoneandtherewaspeoplethathaddyingofcoughsandcoldsandwewerethere.Wehadnorifles.Noequipment.Allwehadwasbasketballsandfootballsandso
17:30 Iwastherefor,that’swhereImetLucette,there.Itwasquiteagoodcampbutnouselessasfarastrainingwent.Allyoudidwasweusedtohadsomemilitia,mostlymilitiainstructors,andtheywereprettyeasygoing.IrememberweusedtomarchfromDandenongtoHallamandthenwe’dspendtherestofthedayinthepubandthenmarchbackagainandthatwas
18:00 andthenwe’dgodowntothepark.They’dplayagameofbasketballortunnelballandmarchinground,drill.Icanalwaysrememberoncetheywerelookingforcorporals.Sotheytookustotheparkandtheyspread‘emabout200yardsaparteachandtheyhadtoroaroutordersthattheblokeatthenextonecould
18:30 hearit,“You’reacorporal”,andIdidn’thaveaveryloudvoicesoIstayedaprivate.ButthepeopleatDandenongweremarvelloustous.Theyusedto,you’dbeoutonguardandthey’dbringyouacupacoffeeat10o’clockatnightandsomeoftheoldfarmers’dslip10bobinyourpocket.Ah,theywereverysensible.
19:00 Theyleftthepubsopentillnineo’clockatnightandsoinsteadofhavin’alottablokesgettin’turfedoutatsixo’clock.Therewasneveranytroubleanyhowandtherewasapermanentmilitarypolicesergeantthereandhe’dhaveapicketof,youknow,theordinarypeople.He’dtakethemaround.Wellhe’dstartatthebottompub.He’demptythatoutandthenthepicket’dhaveacoupleof
19:30 beersthereandthenhe’dgotothenextpub,emptythatout,andthepicket,anduptothethreepubs.They’ddothatandtherewasaGreekcafécalled‘SteveDegeorges’andhe’dgive‘emsupper.Everyonewantedtobeonthepicket.They,oh,theytookusdowntoMelbourneforamarch
20:00 andthatphotoupthere’stheygiveyouabandolier,youknow,itcomeoutoftheFirstWorldWar,andarifleandwemarchedthroughthecityandassoonaswemarchedtheytookalltheriflesoffusagainandbacktoDandenong.Iwaswithabunchofaboutsixblokesandeverynightwe’dgoovertotheAlbionHotelanditwasalrightuptillacoupleadaysafterpaydaywe’dbe
20:30 broke,andtherewasafella,thepublicanwasafellacalledJimmyMcQuade,andhe’dletusputitontheslate.Sowe’dhaveacoupleofpintsandgetahalfadozenbottlesofbeerbetweenuseverynightandthenpayday,we’dcomedownandgivehimallourmoneyandwe’dstartagain,butsuddenlymidweek,oh,itmustabeeninJuly,August,theysaid,“Right,packyourbags.You’reoff,”andsowepackedourbagsandwe’remarchin’downthemainstreetand
21:00 allthepeopleareoutwavinggoodbyetousandJimmyMcQuade’suponhisbalconyofhispubandsomeonesaid,“Lookwho’sgoin’,Jimmy,”andhere’sallusblokesgoin’owin’himafortnight’swages.SowewentdownfromDandenongtoBalcombe[MorningtonPeninsula].Balcombewasajustanewbeingbuilt.Imeanitwasopendrainseverywhereand
21:30 Icanremembertherewas,youknow,ofanightweusedtogototheSalvationArmyhutbutIcan’trememberdoinganytrainingatBalcombe.Wemusthavedonesome.Weweren’tthereagreatlengthoftime.Weusedtogetleavefromthere,Iknow,becauseIusedtocomebacktoDandenongbybus,butIthinkwemusthavedonealittle
22:00 bitoftraining.WeusedtogodownforaswimdownthebeachIremember.Itwasweweren’tactuallyinanyunitasfarasIknowthen.Wewerejustafloatingsortofabunch.Weneverknewwhereweweregoing.Neverhadanybattalionallocatedtousoranythinglikethat.
22:30 AnyhowwewerethereforaboutthreemonthsandIgotabitjackofit[sickandtiredofit].Igotsickofthisinternaljust,youknow,doingdrillsandthatandIgotmeselfinthecookhouseforawhileandthatwasgood.Iusedtogetplentyofgoodtuckerandwedidn’thavetogoonparadesbuttheysuddenlymissedmeontheparades
23:00 andsoIwasbackonparadeandtheyshiftedusagainandthistimeitwastoDarley,outsideBacchusMarsh,andthatwasanothernewcamp.Wegotthereandallthedrainswereopenandtheyhadroofsonthehutsbutoh,itwascold,itwaswet.Therewasmud,andsothereIcanremember
23:30 wedidalotoftraining.WedidalotofphysicaltrainingandatthattimeBrenguns[Brenlightmachineguns]werejuststartingtocomeintothearmyandwedidalotofworkwiththeBrengunsandLewisgunsandrifletrainingandroutemarchesandthat,andthatwasinNovember1940.IknowwegotofffortheMelbourneCupbutweusedto
24:00 getnightleaveandthemilkcarriersusedtogofromBacchusMarshtotownandthey’dgiveusarideintotownandwe’drideback.SoweusedtogettoMelbournequiteoften.IrememberoncethefirstweekorsoweweretherewewenttoBacchusMarshandhadanafternoonandwewerecomingbackandsomeonefoundafullbarrelofbeeroutside
24:30 thepub.Sowerolleditallthewaybacktothecampandtheysaid,“Wellhowarewegonnaopenthis?”Andwedidn’thaveanybungsoranything.Sosomeoneknockedthetopoffitandtheyweredippin’bucketsintothetopofthethingandcartin’‘emaroundthehuts.Weneverheardanymoreaboutthatbutitwasagoodcamp.Alotofalotofgoodtrainingand
25:00 thenweusedtogetnightlytherewasaskateroller,skatingrinkdownatMelton,whichwasn’tfarandwe’dgothere.Therewasdancesinthewoolshed.Wewenttothatandaboutthattimeourlittlegroup,wehadalittleScotchmancalledScottyM(UNCLEAR),hewasIrishorScotch,I’mnotsure,buthewasagreatsingeranddancer.Wehadafellathatcouldplaythepiano
25:30 andtherestofusmuckedabout.Soweformedaconcertpartyandweputaconcertonforthetroops,whichwasverysuccessfulbecausethislittleScotchbloke,ohhecoulddance,hecouldsing,hecoulddoanything.HedidmostoftheentertainingandthatconcertpartystayedwithusfromwewereatDarleyto,
26:00 oh,inDecembersometime.SoweputacoupleofconcertsonthereandIthinktheythoughtweweretooclosetoMelbourne.Weweregettin’awaytoooften.Sothe8thDivisionwasformingandwewereallocatedtothe2/29thBattalionandtheywere
26:30 shiftedtoBonegillaandthatwasitmustabeeninlateNovemberorearlyDecemberin1940.Anentirelydifferentatmosphereupthere.Itwashot.Itwasdry.Itwasdustyandwewerecampedonthe
banksoftheHumeWeirbuttheyreallywhippedusintoagoodshapethere.Wedidalotof
27:00 routemarching,alotofphysicaltraining,alotofweaponryyouknowwiththenewmachinegun,theBren.Vickersguns.Grenadethrowing.Allaspectsofinfantrytrainingandthenweusedtogoswimminginthedam.Itwas
27:30 coldbutitwasgood.Therewasn’tmuch,occasionallyyou’dgetintoAlbury.Therewasn’tmuchweekendleaveandthatandthenitcameuptoChristmasin1940andwegot,Ithinkitwassixdays,sevendaysleave.Sothewholecampshutdownandweallheaded
28:00 offforsixorsevendays.IwentwithacoupleofmatesofoneblokelivesupthecountryandhelivedupataplacecalledLeitchville,whichisupnearCohuna.SoIwentwithhimbecauseLucette,I’dmetherandweweremoreorlessengagedIsupposeandherbrother-in-lawwasastationmasterinthispoliceforce.SoshewasupthereandIwentupthereandwespent
28:30 thesix,sevendays.
ShewasintheAWASwasn’tshe?Yourwife?
Oh,shewasn’tintheAWAS,thatwas;theydidn’tstarttill1942.No,Lucettewas,Idon’tknowhowoldwouldshebe,she’donlybeabout18then.Iwas20butitwasagoodleaveand
29:00 therewasalotof‘emwentupthereandwewentandweusedtogetontheselittlerattlers[trains],taketheordinarytrain,steamtrain,toBendigoandthentheyhadtheselittlebeetles[singlecarriagetrains]theycalledthemflyingallthelittle,they’dstopataplaceandeveryone’dgetoff,gooverthepub.Haveabeerandtheblokebeetle[driver]couldn’tgoandhe’dcomebackbut…
Wereyoulookingforwardtogoingoverseas?
Yep.Yeahwe,
29:30 well,andthatwasoneofthebugbears[complaints],becausewejustdidn’tlooklikegettingoverseas.Imeanwewerethere,wecamebackfromleaveandstartedyouknowandstartedtrainingagainandafteracoupleamonthswehadanothershiftandtheytookustoBathurstandthatwasagoodcamp.Itwasagoodhardcamp.Itwasgetstartingtogettowards
30:00 theendofsummeranditwasacoldplacebutweyouknowwe’dbeentrainingfor12monthsandtherewasn’tmuchmoretheycouldshowusandtheystartedtosay,“Well,you’renotintheAIF,we’reintheIAF,InAustraliaForever,”anditlookedasthoughwewere,becausetheywereholdingbacktroops.TheymustaknownsomethingabouttheJapanesecominginandtheyweretryingtoholdbacktroopstodefend
30:30 Australiabecausetheywereallleavingandsowespent,wegotupthereinJanuaryandwewerestillthereinAprilandwewereyouknowwe’dfullytrained,fullyfitandveryboredandsoonedaythisfellainkilts,heappearedonthescene.
31:00 Wewerealllookingathimandanoticewentupontheroutineordersboardthatanyoneinterestedinjoiningaspecialunit,‘hush-hush’unit[secretunit]theycalledit,toreporttotheirsectionleaderandhewouldlettheoldcolonelknowandhe’dgiveyouaninterview.Well,thisScotchblokewasablokecalledFreddy,CaptainFreddySpencer-Chapman
31:30 andhewasaBritishcommandoanditturnedoutthatin1940thingsweren’tgoingtoowellinEngland.Theyweregettin’knockedabout.TheyhadDunkirkandtherewasaLordLovat.HehadestatesupinScotland.Sohegatheredafewruffiansashecalledthem,tookthemuptohis
32:00 estateandtrainedthemandthenstartedlittleraidsacrossthecoast,youknow,acrosstheChannel[EnglishChannel],StNazaire,Norwayanditwasstartin’toworrytheGermansabit.Sosomeonetheresaid,“Well,thesebloodyAustraliansareallabitmad.Weoughttogooutthereandtrainsomeofthem,”andsotherewasacolonelcalledM…ohitdon’tmatteranyhow,andtwo
32:30 captains,FreddySpencer-Chapman.Nowhewas,he’dclimbedMount…orhetriedtoclimbMountEverestandhe’dbeenanexplorer.Hewasthefieldcraftinstructor,teachyoutogoby…‘MadMike’Calvert[laterChinditsinBurma]wasanothercaptain.HewastheRoyalEngineersandhewastheexplosiveexpertandtheyhadacoupleofwarrantofficers.Stafford,Staffordwasaweaponsexpertandanotheronewasthesignals.Sothey
33:00 headedofftoAustralia.Nevertoldanyonetheywerecomingandwhentheygotthere,theAustralianarmydidn’twanttoknowanythingaboutit,didn’twantthematallbuttheypersistedandtheyfinishedfinallytheygottoBobMenziesandheleantonsomebodyandtheysaid,“Wellyoucanform,youknow,somecompanies,”andsotheysplitupandthat’showwemetFreddySpencer-Chapmanand
33:30 wehadaninterviewyouknowandthentheysaid,“Canyoustreetfight?Canyousailaboat?Canyouflyanaeroplane?Canyouguidebythestars,”andIsaid,“No,no,no.”Forgotallaboutit,youknow.Anyhowabout,oh,aboutamonthlaterIwasoutonbivouacactually.Usedtogooutonsleepin’outinthepaddockandablokecome,
34:00 despatchridercomeoutandsaid,“You’vegottohurrybacktocamp.You’removingintwohours.”Isaid,“Where?”Hesaid,“Wedon’tknowbutyou’removing.You’vegoneintothathush-hushunit,”see.Soitwasgreatandtherewasquiteafewofthe2/29thBattalion.2/30thBattalionwasNewSouth[Wales],2/29thVictorian,2/30thwasaNewSouthWales
34:30 battalionthatwasalsoinBathurstandthe2/26thwasaQueenslandbattalionandtheymadeupmostoftheFirstIndependentCompany.Theofficers,therewasquiteafewofficersandwhathadhappenedwastheNCOsandtheofficershadbeennotifiedbeforeusandthey’dgonetoWilson’sPromontorytodoa
35:00 [cadrecourse]andtheyhadsixweekstheresotheycouldinstructusandyouknowwhattodo.Sowestilldidn’tknowanywhatitwas.WegotonthetrainwenttoSydney,youknow,wentdowntoMelbourne,hadanightinMelbourneatCaulfieldandthenwecaughtthisoldrattlertoFoster.Stilldidn’tknowwhatitwasthatandtheyonlyhadonetruckI
35:30 thinkbecauseweallhadtostayinFosterandthisonetruckshuttledusoutthereandonthewayout,atYanakiewepassedanairfieldandsothatwasit,paratroops,andsoweeventuallyallgottoTidalRiverandtheyparadedandtoldusandnowafterabouttwoorthreedaystheytolduswhatwe
36:00 weregoingto,wewereindependentcompany.Well,nooneknewwhatthatwas.Sotheysaid,“Youcanpulloutnowifyoulike.You’llbethoughtnonetheworseof,butifyougopasthereyou’rein.”Sowe’dfoundoutthenthatwhatitwasandwhytheypickedWilson’s
36:30 Promontory.It’sisolated.It’srugged.ItwasmoreorlesslikethecoastsofEuropebecauseitturnedouttheyweretrainingustogotothebigraidatDieppe,andWilson’sPromontoryis,youknow,it’slikethat.It’sgotanarrowneck,whichisonlyhalfamilewideandtheyhadguardseveryfewyardsacrossandnoonecouldgetontothemand
37:00 theykeptaprettyclosewatchfromupinthehillstoseetherewasnothingcomingbyseabecausewebelievedtherewasalotoffifthcolumnistscomingdowntowonderwhatwasgoingon.
Canyoutelluswhatfifthcolumnistsare?
Yeah,they’respies.Youknow,Imean,‘quislings’[collaborator,traitor]theycalledtheminEurope.Theywereciviliansthatwereplantedortheymightabeenlocalsyouknow
37:30 thatwasrecruitedandtheyusedtogoroundwiththeirearsandeyesopenandpickupanyinformationanddespatchitoverseas.Howtheydidit,theyhadtheirownwirelessbutthisinfantryitwascalledNumber7InfantryTrainingCentre.Nowtherewasanumber1,2,3,
38:00 4,5buttherewasno6andthisMikeCalvert,theexplosiveexpert,hewasabitcunning.HefiguredifwecallitNumber7,thefifthcolumnistswon’tbeabletofindNumber6andthey’llbelookingforit,andtherewasnoNumber6.Soheandtheytookusdownthereandwewereisolatedthenanditwasintensive,reallyintensive
38:30 training.Wehadalotofweaponsthatweren’t,whatwouldIsay,commonplaceinAustraliaandwehadtheTommygun[sub-machinegun]withthefirstlotofTommygunsthathadcometoAustralia.Wehad45Coltautomatics[.45Coltpistols],whichwetrainedwithandtheywerenogoodinthejunglecausetheygottoomuchmechanicalworkingsusedtogetcorroded,andtheyhad
39:00 plastichighexplosive.Well,itwasjustanewexplosive.Ithinktherewasonly20tonsintheworldatthetimemadeeveryyear.Wegotthat.Wehadstickytankgrenades.Oh,somehorribleweapons,youknow,theygiveusgarrottes:pieceofpianowirewithatoggleoneachend.Theyreckonedit’dtakeabloke’sheadoff.Inevertrieditbut,orknives.
39:30 Theyeventaughtbowsandarrowsbecausetheyweresilentandontopofthatitwasfiveo’clockupandthere,Idon’tifyou’vebeentotheTidalRiver,there’sMountOberon.Well,wehadtorunupanddownthatbeforebreakfastandtheygiveyouadoseofrumtochargeyouup.Itwasatthesametime,
40:00 therewasacompanyofNewZealanders,commandoscameoverandtrainingandtheyusedenemybothways.Imean,you’dbesittin’downtoyourmealandthey’dcomeinandthey’dpourinthedoorandinthroughthewindows.It’dbeonanditwasreallyserious.Therewerebrokennosesandbrokenarmsandwristsandtheyused
40:30 togetstuckintoitandthenextnightwe’dgooverandraidthemandthenonenighttheyhadacombinednightexercisewiththemoutinthebushorusinthebush,Iforgetwhich,andtheycomeouttotryandfindusandtheysetthatasanexercisebutitturnedafailureinthefinishbecausethewordgotaroundiftheyweretakenprisonerstheytook‘em
41:00 backtothewetcanteenwherethebeerwas.Ofcourseeveryonewasgettin’caughtthentogetback,sothatdidn’treallywork.
Tape4
00:33 Okayperhaps
Yeah.
Sandy,canyoutellmenowI’minterested,canyoutellmealittlebitmoreaboutyourcommandotrainingatWilson’sProm[Promontory]?
Yes.WellasIsaid,alotoftheequipmentwasnew;wehadtoreallystarttrainingagain.Forinstance,theyhadstickytankgrenadesandtheywerealikeabigglassball
01:00 withahandleonitandtheyhadabigsheetofsheetofcastiron,andweusedtohavetogoupandyou’djabthegrenadeontothatanditwouldadhere.Whenitletgothemechanismstartedandit’dblowagreatholeinit.Thatwasonething.Wehadtodoaterriblelotof,well,forinstancemapping.Wehadto
01:30 dowhattheycall‘panoramasketches’.You’dgetuponahillandyou’dsketchtheoutlineofthecoastorwhereveryou’relookingatandIrememberoncewehadtoclimbupMountLatrobe,whichwaslongday’sclimb.Wewentuptheretodoapanoramasketchandwegotupthetopandthecloudswentout.Sowedidn’tseeanythingandIthinkwewentupaboutthreedaysbeforewegotathing.This
02:00 Spencer-Chapmanwasfantasticonthehills.He’dbeupwithusandhe’dbeupthehillanddownagainandshoweredanddressedbeforewecouldgetdownandheexpectedustokeepupwithhim.Under-,wedidanunderwaterdemolition.Wedidalotofthatwithsticksofgeligniteandtheyfoundthatthebestway
02:30 towaterproofitwastouseacondom.Putthegeligniteinthereandsealitoffanddropitinthething.Wewouldhavetoswiminthecoldwater,supposedtobesilently,whereyoucouldheareveryonegaspingwiththecoldfromabout100metresaway.Thenacoupleofweeklongtreksoutaroundthepromontoryandcomingback,justtogetusedtotrekkingwith,wehad
03:00 packs,sleepingbagsandthatwhichhadbeenusedonEverestexpeditionsbuttheywerequitegood.Weusedtogoout,wepracticallylivedinthescrubandacoupleofourfellashadabrightideaoneday.
03:30 BoththeNewZealandershadarationtruckandwehadoneandcomingfromFostertoTidalRiveratonestageyou’dcomeupasteephill,whichusedtodropitrightdownintothelowgear.Soacoupleofourfellashadthebrightideathatthey’dhijacktheNewZealandtruckwhenitwascomingupnearthepeak.Sotheywaitedtillitcomealong.Theycouldhearitgrindingupthehill.Theysprangoutwithfixedbayonets
04:00 andthatandpulledhimupandweremakingthedrivergetoutsotheycouldgetintruckanddriveitintothescrubsomewherebutthey’dforgottenthatthedriverhadacoupleamatesinthebackathetruck.Hejumpedouttathetruck,thedriver,andwasconfrontingourtwofellasandhistwomatesgotoutofthebackwithalottabigturnipsandattackedourblokeswiththatandtheysoonlosttheideaofpinchin’thetruckbutthatwasthesortathingwasencouraged.
04:30 Itwastheyweretheenemyandweweretheenemybutwedidyouknowalotofalotofthetimeoutatnightsleepingoutovernightorsleepinginthebush.GodownovertheSaddletoSealers’Coveandsleepthereandblowfishupandyouknowliveofftheland.Itwasanationalparkandinthosedaystherewere
05:00 deerdownthere.Wellnoonewasallowedtotouchthedeerbuttheysentusoutonathreeorfour-daytour,trip,exerciseandtheywouldn’tgiveusanyrations.Theygiveusfiveliveroundseach.Sothedeerusedtosuffer.Weusedtoshootandamateremindedmetheotherday,someofthecityblokesdidn’tknowadeerfromacowandthey’dshootthecowtoo,
05:30 becausetherewasafewofthefarmersusedtoputtheircowsdowntherebutweonlyhadsixweekstrainingbutitwasterriblyintenseandwhenwefinishedwewereright,butjustbeforethefinishtheydecidedwe’dhadenoughandtheygaveusaweekendoff,SaturdaynightofforSaturdayafternoonandsotheyarrangedtoplayafootballmatchagainst
06:00 theFosterfootballclubandtherewereVictoriansandNewSouthWelshmenandQueenslandersandtheteam,ourteam,consistedmostlyofrugbyplayers.TheFostercrowdneverknewwhathit‘em.Theyhadbrokennoses,brokenribsbutwefinishedupquitefriendlyandwehadanightatthepubandtheKiwis[NewZealanders]weretheretoo,andonethingI’mevertorememberis
06:30 therewasaboutahalfadozenMaoris[indigenousNewZealanders]gotuponthepublican’sbilliardtableanddidahaka[Maoriwardance]intheirbootsandhewasn’tverypleasedwiththatbutonceagainthelocalconstabularywereveryunderstanding.Theyhadadance.Theyleftthepubopentillthedancefinishedsotherewerenodrunksaroundthestreetandwehadtocatchthebushomeabout11o’clockandoncetherewas
07:00 theofficerwascounting.Hewas,“One,two,three,four,”onedowninthegutter,“five,six,seven.”Sobuttheygotback.Aftersixweeks,theygaveussevendaysfinalleaveandmyfriendthe2IC[SecondinCommand],oldLexFraser,heoftenremindsmethatwhenhehadtheleavepassesbutwhenit’stimetogotheyhadn’tsuppliedhim
07:30 withanyrailwayvoucherstoget,sohesaidhejustsentusallonthewaywithnovouchersandhesaid,“Irelyonyoutogethomeunderyourownsteamandcomeback,”buttherailwaysnevermissedanythingmuch,butweweretherewasthreeorfourofusandinoursectionwehadafellacalledDickEllam.Dick,don’tknowhowhegotthere,hecouldn’tsee10feetinfrontofhimandhestutteredbuthewasalovelybloke,butanyhowwewereall
08:00 cometoFlindersStreetStationandwewerewalkingthroughandfirstonewentwalkedbacktheticketcollectorandthenextonewentpastthecollector,noticketsandoldDickwasalwayslast.Hestumbledaboutandhecomeandtheblokeandhecouldn’tfindtheopeningtogothroughandheeventuallyfounditandtheblokesaid,youknow,“Noticket?Wheredoyouthinkyou’regoing?”OldDicksaid,“OhI,I,I,I’mgoingtotheb-b-bloodywar.Areyoucomin?”andoff
08:30 hewent.Soweeventuallyallgotbackfromleaveandthenweweretoldweweregoingoverseas.Itwasaboutthe12thofJulyIthink,no,beaboutthe10thinFoster.SowehadtocatchtheoldtraintoMelbourne,trainuptoSydneyandthenweallboardedtheZealandia.
09:00 Oh,trooptransport,about7,000ton,anoldtrampsteamerandweheadedoffonthe12thofJuly.WestoppedinBrisbane.Itwasabitofashambles.We’dbeenissuedwithanewcolourpatch,whichwasagreendoublediamond.Nobodyknewwhatitwasandtheneveryonewasqueryingusaboutit.Anywayweallgotintotownandtheyallgotintothepub,havin’a
09:30 fewbeersandoneofourfriends,StickyWills,disappeared.Afterawhilehecomebackandhesaid,“Doyouwannagoforatourofthetown?”“Wellyeah.”Sowefourorfiveofussprungup.OldStickyhadpinchedahorseandcart,alorry,downthestreetfromthebreweryandhetookusaroundthetowninthisandlookedup,oneofourblokeswasstalkin’thepolicemanonpointduty.Anyhowtheyall
10:00 gotback,wegotbackontotheboatanditwassupposedtobeverysecretbuttheyhadamilitiaunitonthereandabout200,well,C[Civil]ConstructionCorps,civilians.SoweheadedoffupthroughtheSamaraiStraits[easterntipofNewGuinea]anduppastNewBritain.Nowatthatstageweweresupposedtostayat
10:30 NewBritain.The2/22ndbattalionwereatRabaulplussomeaeroplanesandartilleryandweweresupposedtoworkwiththemthere,whichwouldhavebeenidealbecauseNewBritain’sverymountainousandwewouldhaveprobablybeenabletodothesamejobasthe2ndCompanyandthe4thCompanydidatTimor,butwegotabouthalfwayupNewBritainandthearmyheadquarterssentnews,“Don’ttakethemtoRabaul.Takethem
11:00 toKaviengonNewIreland,”whichwasanotherdayaway.Wellthatwasalright,butNewIrelandwasaplace,itwasimpossibleforustodefend.ItwasalittlenarrowstripupthereandtheJaps[Japanese]onlyhadtolandontwobeachesandtheycutusoff.Ifwegotintothebushitwasallscrub,ahswamp.Nowhere,therewasnonativegardenstoliveoffbutthatwasinthefuture.Anyhowwe
11:30 gottoKavieng.Therewasnooneknewwewerecoming.Therewasnoaccommodationreadybutthetownpeoplewereprettycooperativeandtherewasafewbighousesempty.Sotheybilletedusinthefewhousesandthenwestartedtrainingagain.Weusedtothey’dstartaboutnineo’clockandthey’dhaveroute
12:00 marchesandthey’dhave,youknow,pullingBrengundowntillweweresickofthesightofit.Itwasallveryboring.Nighttimetheyhadawetcanteenandweusedtohavevarioussortofturtleracesorhorseraces.ThatwasalrightbuteventuallyIgotsickofthiseternalmarchingupanddownandformingfours.Soourofficer,Jack
12:30 Mackie,wantedabatman.SoIthought,“Thisisalright.”Thebatman,heusedtopayhimapoundaweekandifyouwentdowntothecanteentobuysoaportoothpasteoranything,youboughtthesameforyourselfonhisbill.Sothatwasgood.Ontopofthat,whatwasbest,youdidn’thavetodoanyduties.Afteryoufinishedyourduties,youwerefreetogo.SoIstartedoffonthisand
13:00 oldJackusedtotakeoursectionoutandhe’dmarch‘emoffdownthegroundintothejunglesomewhereandhe’dbecomin’backandMcNab’dbesittin’inSangSang’spubhavingabeerandhe’dlookatmeandhe’dmarchthesectionoffbackdowntotheheadquartersquicklyandgoinandhavealookandhisbedwasmade,hisshoeswereshined,hisshortsandeverythingwerenicely
13:30 done.Sohe,“Oh.”Anyhowanothertimehe’dcomehomeandI’dbeoutplayin’golfandhe’drushbackanditwasalldoneandthatwentonformanyweeksanditwasagoodthingformebecauseI’dfoundalittleblackboytodoalltheworkandIwaspayin’himsixbobamonthandJackwaspayin’mefourpoundamonth.SoIwasmakin’aprofitandthisyoungblokeheusedtodoallthework.I’dgodownanddotheshoppingandcallinandhavea
14:00 beerandoldJack,anyhow,eventuallyhecaughtme.Sohesackedmeandhekepttheblackboyon,butanotherthing,whenIusedtogoplayinggolf,I’dalsotakemelittleblackfellawithmeforacaddyandI’dhitaballinthescrubandhe’dgoinandhe’dcomeoutwithaboutsixandIwasmakin’aprofitongolfballs.AnyhowpooroldJack,hewokeupinthefinishandhesackedmeandfromthenonIwasonpermanent
14:30 guarddutyandGodknowswhat,butwefinishedupgoodmates,JackandI.Hediedacoupleayears
agobuthewasalwaysgood,butheneverletmeforgetabouthisbatman,Icantellyathat.Sotomakethings,thearmyhadtoldus,andtheymustbeenexpectingthatwhentheenemycame,iftheycameinanynumbers,whichtheywould,
15:00 thattheywouldnothelpus.We’dhavetogetoutthebestwaywecouldandtheytoldusthat.Theytoldthe2/22nd,[atRabaul]theythrew…andthe2/21stwasatAmbon,the2/40thinTimor,andtheythrewthemalltothewolves,youknow,theyjusthadnohope.Sotheytoldus,youknow,“Whenthetimecomes,you’lljusthavetodothebestyoucan.”Soandtomake
15:30 thethingsworseagaintheystartedsplittingusupandwherevertherewasanairstrip,theyputoneofoursectionstheretoguardittostoptheJapsusingitforaslongaspossibleandwhentheyhadtogetout,toblowitup,andthatwas,wehadanairstripatManus,thatwasupontheAdmiraltyIslands,andNumber4Sectionwasthere.TheydetachedfivemendownNewIrelandabitfromKaviengtoNamatanai
16:00 andtheyhadalittleairstripthere.Oursection,Number3,wasatBukaPassage[BukaIsland,northofBougainville],wheretherewasanaerodrome.Number1SectionwenttoTulagi[SolomonIslands].Welltheydidn’thaveanaerodrometherebuttheyhadtwosquadronsofflyingboatsandabigairforcewirelessstationandairforcestaffandyouknowmaintenancemen,theywerethere,
16:30 andthenfurtherdownatVila[Vanuatu]weputasectionthereandhadtheheadquartersofourplatoonwasdowntherebutwhytheyput‘emthereIdon’tknowbecausetherewastheywererightoutofdangerbutanyhowcamethetimewewentacrosstoBuka.Thentheysplitthemupalloverthewhole
17:00 thingbutafterweleft,ourotherfellasstartedpreparingdefences,sotheymusthaveknown.TheyweredigginggunpitsandthebeautyofitwasthateveryweekorsoaJapaneseshipwouldcomein.Ofcoursethenweweren’tatwarwiththeJapanese.Sailors’dgetoff.TheywentallroundKaviengtakingphotosofourblokesdiggingpits.Gettingreadyfor,youknow,defence,andsowhenthe
17:30 bombdidgooff,theyknewwhereeverypitwasandtherewasnothingourfellascoulddo.Theyknewtheyweredoingit,asIsaid,butthey’reneutrals.We’renotallowedtotouchthem.Sothatwasalright.SowewentacrosstoBukaandIcouldtellallthestoriesofBuka,Bougainville,Icanfirst-hand,butfromtheothersectionsIjusthadtorelyon
18:00 someofthesurvivorstotellmewhathappened.SoI’mnotsoaccurateinthatlightbutitwasOctoberyouknow,stillnowar.WarwasthousandsofmilesawayfromusanditwaslikeabigholidayatBukaPassage,anidyllicplaceandweusedtojustpokeabout.Welltherewasn’tmuchwecoulddoreally.Wehadgunpitsaroundtheaerodromeandthatwasit.
18:30 Sowefraternisedwiththeplanters,hadpartiesandoccasionallyourlieut[lieutenant]wasabitwary.WesentatusBukaIslandisonly80…aboutahalfamilefromBougainvilleiswhattheycallBukaPassage.There’saterriblecurrentflowsthroughtherebutweusedtogoovertoBougainvilleandgetdownupinthehillsandmakeafew
19:00 foodstoresthere.Notmuch,wedidn’thavemuch,andthatwentonandtheneventuallyonDecemberthe7th,Icanalwaysremember,therewasanoldarmycolonellivedinatBukaPassage.Heandhiswifelivedthere,causeonhispensionhecouldlivelikealordyouknow,servants,andhe’dcomerunningupthetrackandhe’djustheardonthewirelessthatJapanhadenteredthewar.
19:30 Sofromthenon,wewereyouknowonawaralert.Wehadourengineerssetboobytrapsallroundtheaerodromeandweusedtopatrolthatatnight.WehadalookoutuponaplacecalledMountHagen,ahHanahanandthere’dbesomeonetherewatchingdownovertheseaandeveryhour
20:00 throughthenightthey’dsignalwithanAldislampandoursignallerswereinthemiddleoftheairstripandtheywouldgetasignal.Iftheysawasignaleverythingwasokay.Iftherewasnosignal,there’dbeabitofaworry.Soonenighttherewasnosignalforabouttwohoursandourcorporal,ablokecalledDonMcLean,whowasveryarmymindedandverycorrect.Sohehadto,
20:30 wellIsupposeit’dtakehimaboutanhourtoclimbthehillandsee,andtheblokewassoundasleep.Sotherewasterriblegoin’on’sthenbutanyhowhegotoverthat,buttheyhadalltheseboobytrapssetuparoundthedromeandweweresittingthereonenightandoneoftheboobytrapswentoffandtheofficersentacorporalandmetofindoutwhowasdoingit.Couldn’tfind
21:00 anythingandthenvirtuallyanyhowwefoundabitofadog.Adogwhowasgoingthroughandhe’dhitthetrip.Anothernightabigcrabdidandanothernightweheardgunfireandwetoredowntothepassage.ItwasablokecalledBillWilding,acaptainoftheMacdhui[BurnsPhilpmotorship],aboat.They’dgivenhimagunandsohewaspracticingashewentthroughthething,butthingswereprettyquiet
21:30 fromtheearlypartandthenJapaneseplanesstartedtoarrive.TheywerewhattheycallaSerial43,abigfour-engineplane,andtheywereupthathigh.Weonlyhadriflesand303,youknow,lightmachineguns,andwecouldn’tgetanywherenearthem.Sotheyusedtojustcirclearoundand
22:00 haveagoodlookwhatwasgoingon.Oncetheycametoolowandwegotintothem.Theynevercame
downagainbutfromthenfromthereIthinkIshouldsortofcomedownsectionbysectionbecauseitwasatManustheywerelikeus,theyhadalittlewelltheyhadtomakethedromethere.Thenativesthoughttheyweremadbecausewhen
22:30 theyfirstwenttheretheyemployedhundredsofnativesrollinglogsupanddowntheground,flatteningthethingandtheynosoonerfinisheditthanacoupleaplaneslandedbutthenextthingtheywereblowingitallupagain.SothenativesreckonedtheywereallcrazybuttheplanesfromNewGuinea,someof‘emusedtostopandrefuelat
23:00 ManusontheirwaytoTruk,whichwastheislandabitfurtheron,andthere’sacoupleaplaneslandedandtheboysweretalkingtothecrews.Hesaid,“Ohweseeyou’re,”youknow,“weseeyoublokesflyin’aroundhere.”Hesaid,“Youhaven’tseenusflyin’aroundhere”hesaid,“It’sthefirsttimeanyone’sbeen.”ItwastheJapsflyin’aroundandhavin’agoodlook.Sotheywereallready
23:30 andaboutthe21stofJanuarytheygotattackedandtheyhadabigwirelessmastthereforanAWA[AmalgamatedWirelessofAustralia]civilianstationandtheplaneswouldcomeinandtheywerebombingaway.Ourblokesshotoneplanedownandtheywerestartin’togoawayandthecivilianradiooperatorrushedinandgotonhisradioandstartedreportingthethingandtheplanesheardhimandthey
24:00 comebackagainandtheybombeditandhekeptonreportingthethingwhiletheywerestillaboutandourofficerhadtotellhimtogetofftheairandstayofftheair,whichtheydidveryreluctantly.Soeventuallytheywentawayandtheywereleftalone,buttheyknewaninvasionwasimminent.Sotheygotupintothehillsandtheymadebase
24:30 campandsetoutoutpostsandtheyweresettledinnicelyandthenaboutinMarchtheJapslandedandtheylandedwithafairsizeforceanditwasonly25ofourblokes,sotheydidacoupleofraids,justpokingaround,youknow,keepin’outoftheway,seewhat’sdoing.Onenight,onedaytheywereoutandtheJapscameafterthemandtheJapsgot‘eminacornerinthefinish
25:00 andtheyreckonthattherewasalittleJapaneseofficerinchargeofthecrowdchasing‘emandhehadwhiteglovesandthat,andtheywerethatconfident,theysatdownandhadasmokewhiletheywerewaitin’andwhiletheydidthatincomeastormanditrainedandourblokesjustfadedawayinthestorm.TheJapslost‘em.Sotheywaitedawhilelonger.Theirofficerwasincapacitated.Hehadbadlegs
25:30 andhe,theysaid,welltheyhadacoupleaboatshiddeninthemangroves.Theysaid,“Well,webettermaketracksnowcausewecan’tdomuchmorehere,”andtheJapswereawaretheywerethereandwereafterthemandtherewasnoadvantageinstopping.SotheoldAllanPalmer,thelieut,hewantedthemtoleavehiminachairwithamachinegunandacoupleofgrenadesandhe’dholdtheenemyback.Theysaid,
26:00 youknow,“Rubbish,”thatyoudon’tleave,wellyouwere,weweresupposedtoleaveanyonewoundedanddon’tlet‘emhold‘em,buttheytookhimtheycarriedhimdowntothecoast.TheygottheboatsfromManusandthentheycutabout,ohitwasabout300milesdowntoBogadjim[northcoastofNewGuinea,southofMadang]inQueensland.Theylandedthereandmadetheir
26:30 wayfromBogadjimupover300milesthroughthemountainstoMountHagen[WesternHighlandsofNewGuinea].Fromtheretheywaitedforawhile,gotaplanetoThursdayIslandandthenwerehome.SotheyneverlostanyoneandsothatgetsdowntoKavieng.Theywere,youknow,makingallsortsofplansthere,theheadquarters.Therewassupposedtobeabout140blokestherebutI’mnottoosureofthenumbersbutthey’dbeen
27:00 thereandtheplanesusedtocomeinandontheirwaytobomb[intheCarolineIslands]andonedayonewenttolandinthewaterjustoffKaviengandhewentstraighttothebottom.Soour2ICwashandy.Heswamoutandtriedtogetdowntogetthecrewoutbuttheycouldn’tget‘em.Sotheylostthatplanebutanyhowtheywereattackedonthe21sttoo.Ahaboutsixo’clockinthemornin’hetells
27:30 methefirealarmwent,whichwasasiren,whichwasanairraidthing,andtheyhadaboutsixtyplanesover‘emandthentheygave‘emyouknowarealdoingover.Theybombedeverythinginsightbutexceptthedrome.Theyneverusedtobombthedromecausetheywantedtouse‘em.Soourblokesfoughtback,foughtbackwell.Theyshotdownsevenplanes
28:00 andtheywerewithlightmachineguns.Sothatwasprettygoodandontopofthat,Imusttellya,wehadacquiredaschooner,theIndunaStar.Wellhowitcameaboutthearmysaidtoour,amateamine,JackBurns,alieutandhewasthefinanceman,andthearmysaidtohimyouknow,“Anythingyouwantjustbuyit.”Meaningyouknowcoconutsorvegetablesandthat.Jackwentoutandboughtaschooner
28:30 for10,000pound.Nearlybrokethearmybutitwasagoodthingforusinthefinishbecausewhenwewereshiftingsectionsabouttheyusedthatandthiswastobeusedinanevacuation.Sotheyhadmadearrangements,theyexpectedtheplanesandtheytoldthecrewontheIndunaStarsoonastheseraidsstarttogetoutintothechannelsandheaddowntotheislandsandgetcover,
29:00 whichtheydid,buttheynevergottothecoverbecausesixplanespeeledoffandtooktothem.WelltheyhadabouthalfadozenofourfellasonitandtheyhadaBrengunontheroofofthewheelhouse,whichwasterriblyexposed.SotherewasasignalmancalledMunrowasworkinginaBrenandhis
numbertwomanwasGeorgeAndersonandtheystartedofffiringandtheotherblokeshadtheirrifles
29:30 going.Anyhow,Munrogothitinthespine.HefelldownandAndersontookoverandtheyshothimthroughthearmandhechanged,keptonfiring,changedarmsandtheycomebackandtheyopenedhimupacrossthetopandthatwasit.Hefelldown.AblokecalledLexNoonan,hegotshotthroughbothlegsbutanyhowtheyranagroundthenandthentheplanesleft‘emalone.So
30:00 LexFrasercomeoutandsawthemandtheyevacuated.MunrowasthespinewoundandAndersonwasyouknowprettywellgone.Theytookhimandtheotherswenttothehospitalandthatwasontheeveningofthe21st.Sotheycouldseebythenumberofplanesthatithadcomeoffanaircraftcarrieranditwas
30:30 certainlygonnabeaninvasion.Soifthey’dastayedinKavieng,therewasnowaytheycoulddefenditandnowaytheycouldgetoutoncetheJapslanded.SotheCO[CommandingOfficer]tookmostofthecompanydowntoaplacecalledKaut.Itwasintheswamps.Heleftasectionattheaerodrometo
31:00 defenditandblowitupandhelefttheengineerofficerandaboutfourengineersandadriverintowntodestroythewharves,thecoppershedsandthatandtherestheadedoffroundthescrub.WelltherewasafellacalledPeterJackDixon,theengineerofficer,andthey’dbeenupforacoupleadaysyouknowwithallthisfightingandthatandtheywentroundandtheysetchargesatall
31:30 theplacesandDixonsaidyouknow,“We’llgoandhaveasleepandwe’llgetupatfouro’clockinthemorningandsetthesechargesoffandthenwe’llgetaway,”buttheonlytroublewas,theJapslandedatthreeo’clockandDixon’sbuggeredasleepandtheycouldn’twakehim,buttheJapssoonwokehimupandtheycapturedthoseandthat’soneoftheblokesonthefrontofthebookisthere.Sotheywerecaptured.
32:00 OurCOhappenedtobeinoneofthehouses,oneofthecivilianones.He’dsentthetroopsawayandstayedbacktoseethingswererightandhewasinBurnsPhilphouseorsomewherewiththisother,I’veforgottenhisname,aplanter,andtheplanterheardthenoisesandhegotupandtheybothgotupandheputthefrontlightonandhecouldseeJapsoldiersinthefrontgarden.Sohewhippedthe
32:30 lightoffandhimandtheCOwentoutthebackandhehadthestaffcarunderthere.Itnevereverwouldstartanditstartedfirstupandhedroveoff.HewentrightthroughtheJapsandtheyneverstoppedhimandheheadedouttothedrome[aerodrome]andJackBurnswastheofficerinchargethere.SohesaidtoJack,“Blowthedromeandgetgoing,”andtherewasalotof
33:00 petroltobeblownuptoo.SoJackblewthedromeupandthenheblewthepetrolupandbeforethatwasalldonetheJapshadarrived,butintheirusualformtheyusedtojustcomeinablock,youknow,andthey’dcomeontothedromeandJackwastherewiththeVickersgunandacoupleofBrensandTommygunsandhesaiditwaslikedaylight.Theywerejustwalkingonthedrome
33:30 andin,notspreadoutoranything.Sotheykilledabout300andthenthatwasthelotthathadlandedatKavieng.AnotherlotlandedoveronthewestcoastatthebeachandtheywerecomingintoKaviengbutJack’ssectionmanagedtoslipthroughthemandthelastJackheardwasthesetwolotsofJapswerefightin’eachotherinthedark.Sotheygotawaythere
34:00 andtheyhadtomaketheirway,ohacoupleadaysdownthroughtheswampwithrowboatsandwhatnot,andthemottointhecompanywasthatanyinjured,youknow,hadtobeleftbehindandsothetwobadlyinjuredblokes,theyweretakentoaplacecalledLemoncott.TherewasaRomanCatholicmissionthereandsisters[nuns]andtheyleftthemtherewiththesistersandtheywerelooked
34:30 after.LexNoonan,hewasshotinbothlegsyouknowandhekeptwalking.Theymadehimacoupleofpairofcrutchesoutoftreesanyhowandhegotdown.SotheyallgotawaydowntoKaut.NowtherewasalotofciviliansandtheywereinonecampandourblokeswereintheotherandtheEndunaStarhadgotoffthegroundandbeensaileddowntothebayjust
35:00 nearby.Sothecivilianswereabitfunny.Abitfunnytheseislanderblokesandtheywouldn’tjoinourfellas,butourengineersgotontotheEndunaStar,whichhadbeenbadlyholed.Theyfixeditup.Ithadbeendownunderthewaterandtheenginewasunderwaterandtheycleaneditupandgotitallgoing.Ittook‘emaboutaweekandtheywentback
35:30 andsawthecivilianfellasandtoldthem,“We’regoing,”becausethey’dheardthatthe2/22ndBattalionatRabaulwasstillfightingandsaid,“Wellwecan’tfighthere.Wewon’tlastanytimeatall.We’llgodownandhelpthem,”andofferedtheciviliansaberthontheboattogodownwiththem,buttheywouldn’tcomebecausetheysaidthatiftheywerecaughtonanarmyboatthey’dbetreatedasspies,
36:00 butwhentheygotbacktoAustraliatheysaidthatourblokesdeserted‘em,whichwasnottrue,butthat’sdoesn’tmatter.SotheygottheEndunaStargoing.Theyhadboobytrapsset.Sillybuggerswiththeseboobytraps,setaroundthecampsonoonecouldgetin,andonedaytheysawsomenativescomingthroughandbeingabitsuspiciousyouknow,
36:30 andtheyrealisedthatthesewerenativesfromKaviengwho’dbeensentoutbytheJapstotryandfindoutwherewewereandsooneoftheengineers,BertcalledBertwhistle,startedtochase‘emandthey
takeoffandheranstraightintohisownboobytrapandkilledhimself.Sotheythought,“Well,bestwegetgoing.”SotheygotontotheEndunaStarandtheyonlysailedbynight
37:00 andtheymadetheirwaydownthecoasttilltheywerealmostoppositeRabaulandtheycalledin,itwasgettingtowardsdaylight,andtheypulledintoacreekandcoveredtheboatupandthentheytriedtomakecontactwiththesixblokesovertheothersideoftheislandbuttheycouldn’tcontact‘em.Couldn’twaitforthemsotheymetupwithaplanterandhetoldthemthatthe2/22ndweren’tfighting.They’d
37:30 gone,youknow,they’dbeenoverrun.SotheyheadedoffandtheywereheadinginourdirectionatBougainvilleatBukaand,asItoldyou,themaingovernmentheadquartersonBougainvillewastheplacecalledKieta,andtherewasadistrictofficerandradiooperatorsanddoctorsoryouknowassistantdoctorsallovertheplacedownthere
38:00 andabigJapaneseflyingboatlandedandthesefellaspanickedandtheyburntthewirelessstationandtheyjumpedintotheirboatandweregettingreadytomakeoffandtheflyingboattookoffandwentawayagainbuttheypanicked,reallydidpanic,andheadedoffandtheygottoAustraliaandtheytoldtheauthoritiesthatBougainvillewasoccupied
38:30 andsofromthenon,likeourheadquarterstheycontactedMoresbyandsay,“We’reevacuating,”andtheytoldthemtheauthoritiestoldourcompany,“Don’tgotoBougainville,it’soccupied,”whichitwasn’tatthatstage,andhadthey’dcometheywouldagotsafelydown.So
39:00 theyweremakingtheirwaytoWoodlarkIslandandFaeroetohopefullytoNewGuineaandtheyweregoingprettywellandsuddenlytheyspiedaplane.Wellsomeoftheexpertstellmetheyshouldhaveimmediatelystoppedtheirengineandjustfloatedbecauseitwouldn’tshowanywakeatthebackfromthefella,buttheyneverdid.LexFraserputeveryonebelowdeck,exceptthenatives.Itwasanativecrew.Heputonhispyjamasoverhis
39:30 uniformandclimbedthemastandwaswavingtheremakin’outhewasaplanterandthenextthing,thisplanewascirclingabove.Itopenedthedoorsanddroppedthreebombsandonemissedtheboat,theotheronehititandkilledaboutthreeandwoundedalotandLexcouldn’tunderstandthat,buthelookedbehindhimandourCO’sstandingbehindhiminfulluniformwithallhis
40:00 decorationsandwhatnotandtheJapssawthat.SotheJapsthendropped‘emamessagetosay…
Yes,yes.We’redowntothelastminutes.Sojust…
Anddropped‘emamessagesaying,“GotoRabaulso-and-sobearing”,youknow,andthenheopenedhisbombdoorsandhestillhadthreebombsleft.Sotheysaid,“Well,thebestthingwecoulddoisdothat.”Theycamedownand
40:30 theinjuredweregettin’there.Wehadadoctorandhewasdownstairsfixin’uptheinjured.Oneblokehadhislegjusthangingoffandsoforthandtheythoughtiftheycouldjuststalluntildarktheymightgetawaybutbeforedarkcomeadestroyerturnedup.Ithadbeencalledupbythethingandsotheyweregone.Therewasnohopethenforthem.Itwasthenavyandtheywerequite
41:00 goodtoourblokes.Theyhookedonandtoweditin.Theytookthewoundedoverandontotheir,oneblokediedandtheygavehimafuneral,theJaptookourofficersoffandtookthemdowntothewardroomandtreated‘emtodrinksandteaandthat.ItwasanoldBritishcruiserordestroyerorwhatitwas.Sotheythen.
Wellperhapsweshouldjustpausethere,becausewe’re
41:30 gonnaruntotheendofthetape.
Tape5
00:31 Okay
You’reright?
We’llgetgoingagain.
Yeah.WelltheyweretakentoRabaul,whichwasmadeintoabigprisoner-of-warcamp,‘causetherewasthe2/22nd,I’llhavetotellyouaboutthemlater,therewasalotofthemthere.Theairforcehadallgotawaymostly.Alotofthecivilians,thesocietywomenwerebeingraped.Youcouldhear‘emallgoingon,
01:00 buttheyseparatedtheofficersfromthemen,whichwastheirwont,becausetheythinkiftheythoughttheydothatthemenwouldn’thaveenoughbrainstodoanythingandsotheywerethereforaboutsixmonthsworkingintheoraroundtheplacefortheJaps.Ourcompanysergeantmajor,ablokecalledHarvey,hewasaverygoodmechanicandtheyhadhimworkingatthe
01:30 campontheenginesandthatforcarsandtrucksandenginesintheengineshopandafterawhileourplanesstartedtocomebackupbombingRabaulandofcoursetheJapshadallchargedout.Ourblokesweren’tallowedtogetinpitsoranything.Theyhadtotakethebruntofit.TheJaps’dgoandHarveywouldrunaroundandsetallthemachinesgoing
02:00 flatoutwithnooilin‘emandwreck‘emall.Oneofourofficers,JackBurns,he’sstillabout,theycaughthimlaughingwhentheJapsweregettin’bombedandtheygavehimaterribledoingoverandIdon’tthinkhe’severreallyrecoveredbuttheygenerallyspeakingIthinktheywereprettywelltreatedthere,
02:30 especiallywhenthenavy,thenavyweregood.Thearmyweren’tsogoodbutI’vegotacopyofaletter,andit’stheonlyoneI’veseen,thatoneofourblokesgotoutofthePOWcampandhewrotetohismotherandhewashesaid,youknow,he’saPOW,“andwe’rebeingtreatedwellandI’llseeyousoon.”WellthatwasinFebruary‘42andtheyneverheardanymoretillaboutNovember‘45andtheytold‘emtheywerealldead.
03:00 Soafteraboutsixmonths,theydecidedtosendthemtoJapanorIthinktheotherranks,corporalsandprivates,weregoingtoaplacecalledHainaninChina.Nowthere’sbeenmany,manyrumourssincethewar,andI’vehearditfromplanters,fromRomanCatholicbishops,
03:30 thatourmenweremarchedontothisboatthedaybeforetheboatwentoutandcamebackwithout‘embutthere’snoproof.Imean,they’venevereverfoundanybodiesbutI’veheardthatstory.Therumoursstillpersistandthere’snoonealivethatIknowofcouldsaytheysawanyonemarchontothatboat,butwe’veonlygottatakethatasthetruth.Soalltheothersthesefellas
04:00 wentontotheboat.TherewasIthink1,073soldiers,acoupleahundredcivilians,andtheysetoffandtheywereoffLuzonIsland,thePhilippineswhentheU.S.submarineSturgeonsighted‘emaboutmidnighton1stofJulyandhefollowed‘emforawhileandtheJapanesewouldnotdowhat
04:30 theyweresupposedtodo,whichwasaprisoner-of-warshipwouldbefullylit,markedwitharedcross,soyouknowandtheneveryonerespectedthat.TheJaps’ideawas,iftheydon’tmarkthat,theenemywon’tknowwhetherthereareprisonersofwaronitornotandthereforetheywouldn’tfireatit,buttheydon’tknowtheYanks[Americans].TheYanksfiredateverything.SotheysanktheMontevideo
05:00 Maruitwasandtherewerenosurvivorsfarasweknow,exceptsomeoftheJaps.Theygotintotheboat.TheywentontothePhilippinessomewhere,Ijustdon’tknowwhatitwas.Theguerrillastherecaughtalotof‘em,killedalotof‘embuttwoorthreegotbacktoManilaandjustaswesaythat,aboutamonthagoIgotaletter
05:30 fromabloke.Ohdear,because…doesthatmatter?
We’llpauseforamoment.
Afellacontactedtosaytheyfoundasurvivorofthecrew.Well,hetoldthestoryandthey’reinvestigatingit.Ican’tbelieveit.Hesaidyouknow,“Wegotonverywellwiththeprisoners-of-war.Theyusedtocomeuponthedeckandwe’dhaveasing-song.”Ithought,“Yeah,”buthesaidtheyweresupposed
06:00 tomeetsomedestroyersfromJapantoescort‘emintoChinaandwhentheygottotherendezvousplacetherewasnoonethere.ThetwovesselsthathadescortedthemfromRabaulhadtogoback.SotheyturnedaroundandleftandtheMontevideoMaruwasonitsownanditgotsank,orgotsunk.
06:30 Anyhowthissurvivorreporting,hesaid,becauseanyratehesaid,andtheyhadalotofwoodonthedeck,logsofwood,usedtocookthericefortheprisonersandhesaidtherewerealotofprisoners.Theygotintothelifeboat,thecrew.AlotoftheprisonerswerefloatingaroundsingingAuldLangSyne,hesaid.Hesaid,“andwegave‘emourlifejackets.”
07:00 WellImean,they’renotlikelytodothat.Hesaid,“Andtheygotaway,”andthenhesaid,“AfterwardstheescortsfromJapanturnedupandtookthesefellastoJapan.”Wellnowthere’sneverbeenanyreportofitatall.Butthatwasthestorythatguybutthatwastheendofourcompany,thebulkof‘emanyhow,buttheofficers,theywent
07:30 acrossonanotherboatandtheygotthroughtoJapanandtheyweretherefortherestofthewar,anyhowinJapan.IthinktheyfinishedupworkinginthecoalminesbuttheywereIdon’tthinktreatedtoobadlybuttheycamebackanduntiltheycomebackwehadnoideawhathappenedtoourblokesatall.Therewas,Imeanthemothersandloversand
08:00 wiveshadbeenwriting.Everymonththeywereallowedoneletteramonthforthewholewartotheseblokesandafterthewarfinished,theygottheletterscomebackinapilethisnotopened,nevergetit.Sotheywerefinished.TheofficersweregoneandImightaswelltellyouthestoryaboutRabaulitselfcausewehadacoupleablokes
08:30 there.Therewasthe2/22ndBattalion.Therewasanairforceofabout12Wirraways[lighttraining/fighteraircraft].Therewasartillerythereandanti-aircraftgunsandtherewasthesamethingonthe21st.Theygotattacked.Theyhadaboutahundredplanesover‘emanditgive‘ematerriblepastinganditknockedtheanti-aircraftgunsout.
09:00 Theairforce,welltheyonlyhadoldWirraways,whichweremoreorlessonlytrainingplanes,andJohnLaruewastheOC[OfficerCommanding],theCOoftheairforceandhehadafella,his2ICIthink,whospokeLatinandhesentdowntoairforceheadquarters,inLatin,the
09:30 ohwhatdoyoucallthoseRomangladiators’farewell,whichwastosay,“Wewhoareabouttodie,saluteyou,”andtheydidn’tdie.TheygotshotoutoftheskyasfastastheywentupbutIdon’tthinktherewastoomanyof‘emkilled.Theygotparachuteddownbuttheydidafantasticjob,theairforce.Theyhadacoupleofbombersandsotheyevacuatedalltheirmenyouknow.Itwasnousestayin’there.On
10:00 themorningofthe23rdofJanuary,theirdefenceswereready.Theywereexpectingathing.Incometwoaircraftcarriers,aboutsevencruisersanddestroyersandseventransportsand15,000troopslanded.Welltherewasonly1,000fightingmen.Theykilled3,000Japaneseonthere‘causeonceagaintheJapslandedand
10:30 marchedupthe,youknow,justinfullview.Theygotmoweddownbuttherewasnohopeandtheofficersgaveastrangeorder,the“everymanforhimself.”Welltheyjustwanderedoff,theblokes,youknow.Theyknewtheyhadtogetdowntheisland,downsouthanditwasaterribleroute.TheyhadtogoovertheBainingMountains
11:00 andtheyhadno,youknow,theyhadnorations.Theyhadneverbeenoutinthebusharoundabout.Theydidn’tknowthebushbuttheystaggeredalong.Alotof‘emgaveup,satdownandjustwaitedfortheJapstopick‘emup.Alotof‘emtriedbutwehadtwomen,therewasWallyHookandMickMorrell.NowWallywas40.Old,oldmanyouknowasfaraswewereconcerned,andWallyhadhadsome,Ithink,
11:30 stomachtroubleandMickMorrellhadulcersalloverhislegandsoourdoctoratKavienghadsentthemtothehospitalinRabaulandtheretheyweretoldtheywerenotfitfortropicaldutyandtheywerebeingdischargedandsentdowntoAustraliabuttheJapscomebeforetheboatcome.SoWallyandMick,theywereoutofthehospital.Theymade‘emselvesusefularoundtheplace.They,
12:00 Iknowhetoldmethattheyspentallnightburningrecordsandrushedapinchedute[utility]andwentdowntotown,pickedupanythingthatwasanyusestillinthetown,comeback.Thenthesistersweremovedtoanotherhospitalat,outnearKokopoandtheytookthewoundedoutthereandMickandWallywereontheirown.No,youknow,noofficersoranyone
12:30 tookanynoticeof‘em.Sotheydecidedthey’dmaketheirownwayandtheystruggledoverthemountainsandtheythought,“Wellthisisnogood,thesemountains.”Sotheymadetheirwaytothecoastandtheysortoffiguredit’dbeontheflatground,whichitwas.Itwaseasier.SotheygottoaplacecalledToll[Plantation]andtherewasabout140,150
13:00 somethinglikethat2/22ndblokessittin’theredespondent,nofood,andMickandWallydecidedtostopwith‘em.Anyhowtheywokeupinthemorning,early,andWallysaid,“LookMick,Idon’tlikethesmellofthisplace.We’llgetgoing,”andMicksaid,“WelllookWal,melegsaretoocrook.Ithinkyou’dbettergowithoutmeandyoumakeyourwaydown.”
13:30 SooldWalsaid,“WelllookMick,ifI’vegottabloodywellcarryya,I’llgetyoubacktoAustralia.”Sotheygotupandtheyhelpedeachotherandtheywentdowntothebeachanditwasniceeasygoingalongthesand.AllofasuddenaJapboatappearedandopenedfireon‘emandtheywereneververygoodshotsanyhowbuttheyneverhit‘emandMickandthemwentintothebushandmadetheirwayoffbutthatboatlanded
14:00 andcapturedallthis130-1402/22ndblokes,tied‘emupinlooselotsofthreesandtook‘emintothebushandkilledthelot.Bayoneted‘em,shot‘em.Someof‘emsurvived.Oneblokehad11bayonetwoundsandhejustlaythereandmadeouthewasdead.Hegotawaybuttherestof‘emkilled.WellthenoldWalgoingtomadetheirwaydowntheislandslowlyandsurely.Hepassed
14:30 theCOofthe,sawalottaredribbonsandhethought,“Ohhere’stheJapscomin’hereagain,”butitwastheCOofthe2/22nd.Hewasgoin’backtogivehimselfupbecausehethoughtthathemightbeabletohelphismenthatweregettingcaught.SoIthinkWalandMickwereabout11weeksontheroadandtheyeventuallygotdowntoaplacewhereacoupleofofficershadtaken
15:00 chargeanddonesomethingaboutit.TheyformedthecampbecausetherewasagovernmentdistrictofficercalledMcCarthyandhe’dbeengoingaroundtryingtoget‘emalltogotothesouthcoastwherehewastryingtoarrangeboatstocomeacross,youknow,littleboats,anyboatatall,comeacrosslikeDunkirkfromNewGuinea.SooldWallyandthem,ohhewasacunningoldbuggeroldWally,he
15:30 andtheygottothiscamp.Therewasn’tmuchfoodbutyouknowitwassomethingbuttherewasacivilianblokethatknewsomethingaboutgardening.SotheofficersgothimtogobackinthescrubabitandstartagardenbecauseagardengrowsinaboutthreeweeksthereandoldWallysaid,“ComeonMick,this’lldous.”Sotheywentandhelpedtheblokeinthegarden.Well,hereckonedfortherestofthetime,
16:00 theyhadfoodbecauseitwasgrowin’itthereandtheycaughtabitofwater.Anyhowtheywereabout12mileawayandtheygotsomebodygotword,“Yougottabethere.We’regoin’offtonight,”and
McCarthyhadgotalotofpeopledownandthere’dbeenabravelittleboatloadofsignallersandanofficercomeoverfromNewGuinea,foundoutwheretheywere,sentasignalbackandacoupleadayslater,
16:30 thebiggovernmentshipcalledthe,IthinkitwastheLoravado,hecomeinandtook‘emalloff.WelloldWalandthentheygotoff,theywentrightaroundtoPortMoresbyandtheygotoffoneboatontotheMacdhuiandittook‘emhome.IdunnowhathappenedtoMickduringtherestofthewarbutoldWally,hewasasergeantandhewasinpromotions.Hewasonalottathebillboards,shakin’hands
17:00 withciviliansandbuyingbondsandtwodaysafterthewarfinished,hegotrunoverandkilled.Sohedidn’tmakeitbutthatwaswhat’shappenedtothebulkofthethingandthey’redownunderthesea.TheothersixblokesonKaviengwasSamRogerswasthecorporalandthesefiveotherblokes,andthey’resittin’thereandthey’reseein’planesgoover.They’reseein’shipsgodownandthey’retryingtomakecontactwiththe
17:30 headquarters.Wellourheadquartershaddestroyedtheirradiobecauseitwastooheavy.Theycouldn’tcarryitandsotheyhadnoradioatallandoldSam’stryingtomakecontactwiththemandhehadacouple,SnowyEdwardsandLoftyMoran,Snowywasalwayswantin’afightandLoftywasverycautious,andheput‘eminatruckandsaid,“Goupandseewhatyoucanfindout,”yousee.Wellofcoursethey’redriving
18:00 furthernorthandnorthandnorthandthey’regettingno,oldLoftyissayin’,“Weshouldturnbacknow.”Snow,“Ohjust‘roundthecorner.I’ll,”andtheyweredamnnearbacktoKaviengbeforesomeonesaid,“No.Thecompany’sevacuated.TheJapsarejustuptheroad.”SobacktheycomedowntoNamatanaiveryquickly.Sotherewastwocoastwatchers,goodblokes,theJapsgot‘emandkilled‘emafterwardsandSamsaid,“Well,
18:30 we’llcomeandhelpyoublokes,”andthecoastwatchersaid,“It’snogoodcomin’withus.Therewon’tbeenoughfoodforus,letaloneyou.”Sothat’swhathopedidourcompanyhave?Theycouldn’tfeedsixandhesaid,“No.”SotheycontactedPortMoresbyandPortMoresbysaid,“Welldon’tgotoBuka‘causeit’soccupied,”whichisyouknowthesameoldtale,“makeyourwaydowntoDonRussell.”Hewasthelieutincharge
19:00 ofthecrowddownTulagiwayandsotheysaid,“Alright.Howwegonnagetthere,”andthey’repokin’aboutandtherewasanoldNewGuineaAirlaunchthere,whichaChinamanhadboughtbuthe’dtakenouttheinjectorsandallthatandhidden‘emallinthebush,see,andhewouldn’tgive‘emtoourblokes.Sotheyhadtostandoverhimwithgunsandtheygottheinjectorsandabitafuelandtheyheadedoffandtherewasour
19:30 sixblokes.Ithinktherewasthefiveorsixciviliansandoneof‘emwasaGermanandhewasthesailor.Heknewhowtosail,see,andtheycouldn’tleavehissidebecausetheyreckonedhe’dturnaroundandgobackiftheydidn’twatchthecompassallthetimebutheturnedouttobealrightandtheyhadaweekofthemostmountainousseas,terrificseasyoucouldgetthere,andstormsand
20:00 eventuallytheysurvivedthatandtheygotdownintotheRussellIslandsandroundthearoundintheSolomonsandtheythoughtthey’dmakethemselvesuseful.SotheystartedcallinginattheplantationsanddestroyinganyequipmentwasaboutandoldLoftytoldme,hesaidtheygottoonethereandtherewasabigboilerandtheythought,“Ohthisisalright,”andsotheyputachargeinsideit
20:30 andunbeknowntotheother,Loftyputthelidbackonanditwent‘bang’andthelidwentupabout500yardandtheysaidtheywerestandin’therewonderin’whenthehellitwasgonnacomedownanditcomedownsafelyandoldLoftysaid,“Well,noonetoldmenottodoit.”SotheypickedupafewmoreciviliansandwentdowntoTulagiandtheretheyjoinedDonRussell’sNumber1Section.
21:00 TheyjustgotthereintimeforthecivilianstocatchtheMarinda,whichwasaninterstateship,andtheywentaway.WellthenfromthenonatTulagiortwolittleislands,TanambogoandGavutu,wheretheairforcestuffwas,theygotbombedeverydayforthreemonths.Theygotaterribleplastering.Welltheymanagedtoshootoneplanedown‘cause
21:30 theyneverdidanythingforawhileandtheplaneswereuphighandtheyneveropeneduponthem.Theywaitedandonedaytheycomeinlowandtheylet‘emhavethelot.Theyshotonedownandtheywereyouknowquitehappy,well,notquitehappybuttheyspentmostofthedayinslittrencheswithbombscomin’around‘emand…
ExcusemeSandy.Ihopeyoudon’tmindmeinterruptingyou.Iknowthismightbeabitdifficult,seein’asyouhavewritten
22:00 thebookon…
Yeah.
thewholecompany…
Yeah.
butforthepurposesofthearchiveifyoucouldjustlimitittoyourownexperiencesandjusttellusyourownpointofviewofwhatwashappeningtoyouatthatpoint?
WellIcandothat,yeah.
Yeah?That’dbegreat.
Well,we’llgobacktooursectiononBougainville.Dowe?
Yeah.
That’sright.WellIcantellyouverybrieflywhathappenedtotheseblokesanyhow.Theystayedaboutthreemonths.TheJapsturned
22:30 up.TheyhadacoupleofblokeswiththemandtheywenttoVilaandatVilatheblokestherehadbeentrainingtheYankstocomebacktheotherwayandeventuallytheyallgotonthe[HMAS]ManooraandbacktoAustralia,butoursectiononBougainvilleandBuka,wewerequitereadyforwhathappenedandtheyneverattackedusonthe21stofJanuarylikethe
23:00 others.Onthe23rdofJanuarytherewasaboutnineplanesturnedupandwehadtheaerodromeloadedwithexplosivefordemolitionsandwewas,whenourheadquarterswentoffaironthe21standtheysentamessage,“We’regoingofftheair.We’reevacuating.
23:30 TakeyourordersfromRabaul.”Ofcourse,theywentofftheairatthesametime.Sooursignallersaredesperatelytryingtogetsomeinformationfromsomewhere.Therewasnoneatall.Soontheeveningofthe20th,notthe22ndJackMackie,thelieut,hesaid,“Welltheymustbecoming,”andwewereonBuka.It’sonlyasmallisland,40-oddmilelongandbitwider.Nowater.
24:00 Hesaid,“Wecouldn’tsurvivehere,sowe’llmoveacrossfirstthinginthemorningtoBougainville.”Soabouthalfpastthreewestartedandthisterrificcurrentwasgoingthrough.Yougetinacanoeandbeforeyougotacrossthehalfmileyouwerethreemilesdowntheotherway.Sohalfofus,wellmostofusgotacross.Therewashalfadozenblokesleftonthe
24:30 drometofighttheplanesoff,whichtheyshotonedownwhentheycame,andblowthedromeup.Wellitwastheywereallsetwithfuses,youknow,andyouhadtolight‘emandawayyougobutthetroublethey’dallgotwetandthennothin’lights.SotheyhadtosawthethingoffandlightitabitfurtherdownandallthetimetheretheJapsweren’tbombingit
25:00 buttheywerestrafingandourblokes’drunoutandtrytolightthethingandoverthey’dcomebutinanyevent,eventuallytheygotblewitupandtheycameover.BukaPassageatthattime,welluptilthen,hadbeenahalfwaystopforsomeoftheCatalinas[PatrolBomberY(PBY)amphibiousflyingboat]downatTulagiandtheyusedtocomein,weneversawthem,they’dstopataplacecalledSorakenandtheyhadfuelthere
25:30 andtheyhadadumpIthinkof500-pound,200-,500-and50-poundbombstheyhadwithusonthedrome.Soourengineer,oldBillDalby,oldBillwasthatotherone,about40butoh,andhecouldfixanythingyouknow.Isawhimfixabloke’sfalseteeththerewithapenknifeandapairawireclippersandthat,butthat,he
26:00 setthechargeandwehadtimepencilsandIthinkhesetitforaboutfourhours.Togivehimtimetogetacrosstheothersideandwe’resittin’overthere.Fourhourswentpast,fivehourswentpastandnothinghappenedandwesaidtoBill,“You’vegottagobackandhavealook.”Anyhowandthenthenextdaytheystillhadn’tgoneoff,Idunnowhy,andoldBillwentoverandthe
26:30 bosssaid,“Wellbuggerthat.We’renotgonnahaveanymoreofthesetimepencils.”Sotheyhadtotakeallthese250-poundbombs.Roll‘emdownthetrack,overthepierandtoss‘emintothewater,whichtheydidwiththe500of‘em,andsometimelaterwecamebackandhere’soneofthenatives.He’sgotoneofthebombsouttryingtoknockthefrontofftogetthechargeoutsidetoblowfish.Sowelefthimtoitbuthenever,theynever,I
27:00 neverheardanybang.SothatwasthatoldJackMackie,hefigured,“Rightyouknowlooktheseplanesareoffanaircraftcarrier.Theymustbecomingtooccupy.”Soweallmadeourwayacross.Wentdownabout20milesdownBougainvilleandthenweheadedupthehills,whichweretobeour
27:30 saviourfromnowon,thehills,butitwasafunnyturn-outbecauseeveryonehaddifferentpriorities.I’dgrabbedfourpacketsof,fourcartonsofArdathcigarettesouttathething.Thatwasimportant.OldBillDalbyhadabloodyalarmclockhangin’offhimandall,everyonehadtheirownideas.Sousyoungblokes,weheadedoffdownthething.Therewasnotanativeinsightforacarrieryouknow.Afterthebombing,theyjustdisappeared.So
28:00 wewerecarryingoutpacksandtheyoungblokesweleftthesetherewaswehadaboutfourfellaswithus,orfive,about40youknow,andyou’dthink,“Whataretheydoin’there?”Anyratewe’dheadoffatagreatclip[rapidly]downtheoldandwe’dhavetostopeveryhourforablow.Theoldfellas’dcomeploddin’down.Theyneverstoppedalldayandattheendofthedaytheywerestillthere.Sowegotbackupintothehills.Wedidn’tknowwhatwasgoingon.Wecouldn’t
28:30 contactanyone,sowedidn’tknowwhetherAustraliawasthereornot.Sowegotback,wentittookus…weweren’tusedtothehills.IttookusadaytogettoRugen,aplacecalledRugen.Itwasonly1,000feetupbutweallgatheredthere.Eventuallytheyallstraggledin.Therewasafewplantationpeople
stilltherebuttheywerestayingonthecoastontheirplantations
29:00 withthehopethattheJapanese’dlet‘emkeepoperating.AsIsaid,youknow,Isaidthey’refunny,causealotof‘em,youknowittakesaboutIthinkitwassevenyearsorsomethingforaplantationtostartpayinganything,andalotof‘emwerestillwaitin’forittopay.SowegotupinthehillsandnoJapscame.Therewas,youknow,wehad
29:30 thiscoupleof,thedistrictofficer,hewasacoastwatcherandhewasbloodyuselessbuthestartedgiving,he’dhearthataJappartyofJapanesewerecomingahsoandso.Soyouknowtheywerelandinginboatsandthemostwecouldputtogetherwasaboutfourmenforapatrolyouknow.Thesefourblokeswouldheadoffandyou’drunintothree
30:00 hundredJaps.Soanywayafterawhilewegotsickofthat.Wesaid,“Ohnowe,”youknow,“we’lldoourownspying,”andsowhilethingswerequietJackMackie,Bougainvilleis140milelong.It’safairlybigisland.SoheputacrowddownattherightatthesouthatBuin,onecrowdatKietaandoneatNumaNuma,oneattheBuka
30:30 PassageandstilloneonBukaitself,whichcoveredthewholearea,youknow,tokeepaneyeoneverythingandthoseblokesfamiliarisedthemselves.TherestofuswereupintheheadquartersinthehillsandwespreadoutandlearntallthetracksandsofromthattherewasaperiodoftheJapsjustturnupandgoout
31:00 andthecrowduprightupthetopofBuka,theywokeuponemorningandthere’saplacecalledKuraor,ohit’sahavenanyhow,LemankoaBayorsomethinglikethatandasfarasweknewitwouldonlytakesmallboatsandtheygotupinthemornin’andthesetwobigcruisersareinthere,“Howthey’dgetthere?”Thenwewokeup,
31:30 formany,manyyearsthere’dbeenalotofJapaneseontheisland,someworkingontheplantationsandalotof‘emdoingtrochusshellingaroundthebeach.Well,theywerejustmappingthewholeseaboard.Theseblokescomein.Ourfellashadaradiowiththem.TherewasaRomanCatholicpreacherandaplantercalledPercyGoodinthevicinity.PercyGood
32:00 wasanoldradiomanandhadhadatele-radioforthecoastwatching.Wellourblokes,he’s70-odd,youknow,bitold,ourblokestookhistele-radiooffhimandtookitoffintothebushtomakeanobservationpostbutunfortunatelytheyleftalotofsparepartsandthataboutthatoldPercytookwithhim.Anyhow,theygotupandthesetwo
32:30 cruiserswerethereandtheywatchedafewboatloadsofJapscomingashoreandgoingintotheplantationandtheyjustkeptouttasightandthenextmorningtheywentdowntoseeandthey’dbeenprettywelltreated,thetwoblokesthere.They,FatherO’Sullivan[hemeansHennessy],he’dbeenwarned
33:00 nottoleavetheplace,nottocontactanyoneandPercyGood,theycomeinandtheysawallhisbitsandpieces.Theysaidtohim,“Where’syourradio?”Hesaid,“Thesoldierstookit.”“Wherearethey?”“Oh,Idon’tknow.They’regone,”youknow.Theysaid,“Wellyou’reonparoletoo.Don’tcontactanyone.Don’tmakeanymoveatall.Justsitthereandwe’llbeback.”Soourblokessawallthis
33:30 andtheygotonto,well,theygotonthetele-radiototheblokeatBukaPassage,thedistrictofficerbloke,andtheytoldhimthattheJapshadlandedandthat,see,sohesentthemessagetoAustralia.Wellnow,insteadofkeepingittothemself,theyputitovertheABC[AustralianBroadcastingCorporation]thattheJapanesehadvisitedKessaandtheJapspickedthisstoryup,thismessage
34:00 up,“Hello,someone’sbeenspotted,sothatblokedowntherethathadtheradiomusthaveputthisthrough.”SotheycamebackandtheytookFatherHennessyawayandtheyshotPercyGood.Bashedhimupandshothim,andsothatsortofthrewthingsoutonBukaandthentheywentawayagain.Therewasnooneabout,soour
34:30 bossandacoupleofourblokeswentroundtoseewhathappenedtoPercyGood.Theydughimup.Hewasonlyveryshallow,he’dbe,theygavehimadecentburialandthentheysenttwoofourblokeswiththetele-radio,stillonBukabutinabitmoresecureplace.SoJackhadthewholeislandcovered.We
35:00 spentallourtimegoingoutonpatrolsfindingthe,meetingthenatives,findingthejointandwehadamedicalsergeantwithusandafewsupplies,butanyhow,about,hewasabitofadogthismedicalbloke,andJack,wewererunningshortofsuppliesyouknow.Twenty-sixblokesandwe’refeedingthecivilians
35:30 andtherealotofthosethereandtheywereeatingintoitandoursuppliesweregettinglow.Sothearmywouldn’tfeedusbutJackMackiegotintouchwiththeVilacrowd.Theyweresafe.Theyhadandtheysaid,“Yes.We’llsendup,we’llgetholdofanoldschoonerandacoupleofourblokeswill…”Ithinkitwascoupleofthousandmiles,andthey’dcomeupandthissetthe
36:00 medicalsergeantblokethinking.Anyhow,he,thelieutandme,sincethebatmanthing,oldJackwouldn’tletmeoutofhissight.Heusedtotakemeeverywherewithhim.Sowewereheadingdowntheislandtovisittheseoutpostsandhalfwaydowntheislandthesergeantgota,ohyouknow,terriblepain,andhediagnosedhimselfwithappendicitisandso
36:30 wegotdowntowheretherewasaradioandtheysaid,“Yes,we’llevacuatehim.”Welltheydidn’twaitfortheschoonertocomeup.TheysentaflyingboatupfromTulagiandpickedhimupandtookhimoff.Sowewere,andthearmyneverreplacedhim.Sofortherestofthetimewehadnomedicineandnobloketoworkit.They’dhadalookaroundandIwasabaker.Theysaid,“Well,youcanbedoctor.”So
37:00 theonlywaywecould,funny,I’dhavetogoaroundiftheblokeshadcutsorbruisesorulcersI’dfindanativewithsomethinglikeitandI’dpracticeonhimandohGoditwasfunny,andthenativewillnevergetbetterifyougivehimthebesthealerintheworldanditdoesn’thurtorthebestcoughmixtureintheworldthatdoesn’ttasteawful,theywon’tgetbetter,andthewaytheyusedtocuretheirulcers,you’dfill‘emupwithCondy’scrystals[PotassiumPermanganate–antiseptic/antifungalagent]
37:30 andthey’drollonthegroundandkickupaterriblefussbuteventuallyit’dturnitintoaburnandyoucouldtreattheburn.SoIusedtohavetoputDettol[antiseptic]onourblokesandthatwasbadenoughbutanyhowthatdoesn’t,butthat’showwewent.Sothisfella…
Whydoyousaythatwasthatthenativeswouldonlygetbetterifithurtalot?
Yeahifitwasapleasanttheywouldn’t
38:00 getbetter.Ohtheywerepretty,they’reprettytough.Imean,Iwasoneday,wesawtherewastwolittlekiddiesplayingandtheyhadawatermelonandabigbushknifeandtheotherbigblokegothimtoholditwhileheknockedthemelonandafterheknockedofftwofingersandIbounditupyouknowbestwayIcould.Thekidnevercriedyouknow.Anyhow,sowehadtogoandvisitallthe
38:30 things.WellwedidandwehadwehadanotherschoonercalledtheMalagunaandJackMackieandIusedtotravelaroundinthisgreatthing.Itwaslikebein’lordsofthesea.SowewentdownrightdownthecoasttoBuin.Atthesouthcoastatabout18mileoutiswhattheycalltheShortlandIslands,fiveorsixandthatandthe
39:00 Catalinasaid,“We’llmeetyouoverthere,”andtherewasaFather,FatherSullivan.FatherHennessywasatBukathatwasgottakenaway.FatherSullivanwasanAustralianfatherandheknewthewater.Sohesaidhe’dtakeusover.Soweheadedoffaboutthreeo’clockinthemorningbuttheysaidtheblokeontheCatalinahadlanded,landedtherethenightbeforeandtherewasaJap,
39:30 didwhattheycalledthemilkrun.Heusedtocomedownbetweensixandnineo’clockandwewereworriedaboutthisCatalinasittin’onthewater.SowegotoverthereearlyandthelieutenantfromTulagi,DonRussell,hewasonthethingandwebundledoldArthurLaytonontoitandawayhewentandweneversawhimagain,whichwasn’tveryunhappyaboutthatand
40:00 sothenwewereontheShortlandIslandsandourboat,schoonerhadbeentoTulagiandwasmakinghiswayup.Sowesaid,“Wellwemightaswellstophereforacoupleadaysandmeethim.”Onthewaydown,therewasaGermanonBougainville,aGermanplanter,andhe’dbeen,well,he’dbeengoodandbadinaway.Whenall
40:30 thegovernmentofficialsclearedofffromKeita,thenativesstartedlootingandhecomeinandhestoppedthatbuthealsotoldthenatives,“Don’ttakeanynoticeofthesoldiers.WaitformenfromJapan,”andsowedecidedthisold,ohI’veforgottenhisnamenow…
Howdidyoufindoutaboutthat?
Ohthenativestoldthepoliceboystoldus,andso
41:00 wewentandhehadahalf-castewife.Wewentandgrabbedhimandhiswifeandtook‘emdownwithustoFaisiintheShortlandsandwewerewaitin’thereandwewerejust,itwasonlyasmallisland.Wewereonlypokin’aroundandtherewasafellacalledBernieSwansonandI,weweremuckingaroundonthewharfandSwansonsaid,“Havealook”andthere’sabigschoonercominginandallwecouldseewasriflespokin’over
41:30 theside.Sowehadnowheretogo.Wegotbehindacoupleofcopperthingsandwethought,“Wellthere’sonlytwoofusandthere’sabout40oftheseblokes.It’sgonnabefunny.”Anyhow,theboatpulledupatthewharf.AllofasuddentheUnionJack[Englishflag]flutteredoutanditwasthefellasfromdownaplacecalledSegi,downtheisland,andtherewasafellacalledKennedy,adistrictofficer,andhewasmagnificent.HehadhispoliceboysandhestayedonthatlittleislanddownthereallthroughtheJapanese
42:00 andtheyusedtosendpatrolsout
Tape6
00:31 TheyturnedupaboutonMarchthe16th.They’dhadaprettyrougholdtimein(UNCLEAR).TherewastwoofourmenandtwoNewHebrideans.
You’rereferringtonatives?
No.
NewHebrideans?
No,no,whitemenandwehadthesetwoGermaninterneesandacoupleofplanters
01:00 togoback,sotheygotontheboat.Wehadabitofapartyandtheysailedoffonaboutmidnightandsowetransferredallthesuppliesontoourlittleschoonerandweheadedoffthen.PulledupatBuinandunloadedsomeofthestores.ThenextstopwasKietaandthatwasjustrecovering
01:30 fromthelootingbythenativesandtherewasaChinesestorekeepertherecalledWongYuandhehadalottastuffhewantedtobecarriedupintothehills.Soweroundedupalotofnativecarriersforhimandhegot‘emtocarryup
02:00 thestuffandwhenhegot‘emupthetopheusedtopay‘emashillingorsomethingandhe’dopenhisstorewhenhe’dcomedownagainandsell‘emalltherubbishhewasn’tcarryingandgethismoneyback.Sohegotallhisstuffcarriedupfornothing.Sowelefthimthere.WecalledupatNumaNumaandwhilewewereatNumaNumawhere’sthereapartyof
02:30 fourthere,weunloadedthestoresandthenwegotawirelessradiotosaythatthefourmenonBukahadbeenchasedandchasedoutandsothey’dcomedowntotheBukaPassageandtwoof‘emhadgoneuptoanotherhideoutonBukawiththeradio.SoJackMackie,theofficer,decidedthatheandIhadbettergetuptherequickandseewhat’sgoingon.
03:00 Soweleftourschoonerandtookasmalllaunchthatwashangin’aboutsomewhereandwegotbackuptotheBukaPassageandlateatnightwemadeourwaytoaplacecalledScotland,whereourtwomenweretherewiththeradioandwestoppedwiththemforacoupleadays
03:30 andtheywerealright.JackMackielookedaroundandattheplace.TherewasnoJaps.Sohehadabrightidea.Hesaid,“We’llcircletheislandandcallinallthevillagesandtellthepeoplethattheJapshavegone.We’vefrightened‘em.Wechased‘emaway.We’renotfrightenedofthem.”SowegotoeveryvillageandJack…
Nowwhichislandwasthis?
Buka.
Buka?
Yeah.It’sonlyasmallisland.Wecouldwalk…
Whatyearwasthis?
04:00 Whatyear?
Yes.
This’dbeMarch‘42.
Okay.
AndsoJackwasgivin’agreatspeechineachvillagehowwebravesoldiershadchasedtheJapsaway.WestoppedataRomanCatholicmissionhalfwayround.Thenextmornin’wegotupandweheardabitofbombingandthat.Wedidn’ttakeanynoticebecausetherewasalwayssomebombshadbeendroppedsomewhere
04:30 andweheadedoffdowntheothervillagesgivin’ourlectureandwegotdownneartheBukaPassageandChinatownandapoliceboycometrottingup.HesaidtheJapshadcomein,shelledtheplaceandlandedthatdayandhesaidtherewasabigpartyof‘emcomin’upthetrackjustbehindhim.Sowehadtoturnaroundandgohellforleatherupthetrack,throughallthesevillages
05:00 thatwe’dtoldwe’dfrightenedtheJapsawayfromandtheywere,youknow,weweren’tfrightenedoftheJapsandwewasflyin’throughthe,itwasraininglikemad.OurfootstepswereclearlyimprintedandtheJapswerefollowingus.Anyhow,wegotbacktotheRomanCatholicmissionandtheFathersaid,“Well,”itwasprettylate,“stopheretonight.I’vegotgoodboysout.Theywon’t,they’llwarnusiftheJapsarecoming,”
05:30 andsowesleptthenight.GotupthenextmorningandohearlyandheadedoffbacktoourtwomenwitharadiodownatScotlandandtheyhadn’theardanything.They’djustheardabitofbombingandthatandtheirradiowentbadandtheydiagnosedthatavalveorsomethingwasbadandwedidn’thavethesparesthere.SowesentapoliceboybackovertoBougainville
06:00 togetthepartandbringitbacktousandhewentfromustoBougainville,gotthepart,broughtitback,gaveittousandthenwentandgavehimselfuptotheJapsbecausehe’ddonesomesillylittlethingandhewasfrightenedhe’dgetpunishedforit.Well,thatmeantthattheJapsknewwherewewere.Sowemovedoutofthemissionhouseandintothebushandweweregettingwehada
06:30 bigwarcanoeorderedtotakeuswithourradioandeverythingbacktoBougainvilleandthenatthat
nightthemonsoonarrivedanditflattened,itblew,itsmashedourcanoeuponthebeachandwecouldn’tmove.Wecouldn’tgetout.TheJapsknewwherewewerebutitwastooroughforthemtocomeandgetusandsowesatthereforaboutfourorfivedaysandthenthe
07:00 monsooneasedandinsteadofgoingawayfromtheJapswedecidedtogotothem,causetheywereatBukaPassageontheaerodromeandwewentbacktoaplacecalledNovanek,whichisjustacrosstheothersideorontheothersideoftheriver.ItwasfairlylateintheafternoonandtherewasaFijianminister
07:30 whowasamissionary,blokecalledUsiahSatutuandhewasinchargeofallthechurchintheareaandhecaughtupwithusandhesaid,“Wellalright.CometoNovanek.We’llhideyouthereandI’llgetaboat.”SowewereabouthalfamileawayfromtheJapssittingupinthenativehutsandtheyfeduswithWASDOUBLEQUOTECHOOKs[chicken]andGodknowswhatandwehad
08:00 togetacrossthepassage.Welltheywereona,JapswereonalittleislandinthemiddleofthepassagecalledSohanoandthey’dsetupsearchlightsandgunsandatnighttimetheyhadthesearchlightsgoingbecausetheysaidanyboatstryingtogetfromBukatoBougainvillewillbefiredon,youknow.Sothat’stostopus.Soitwasabout,nightfallsveryquickly,andwewentoutinthetwilight.Youknow
08:30 itwasfairlydusky,itwasn’tdark,andwejumpedinwehadthiscanoeanditwasandaswewerepaddlingacrossthestraitwecouldseethetorchesoftheJapscomingdowntowherethesearchlightswere.Itellyouwhat,thoseboatswentquickafterthat.WegotacrosstoBougainville.Transferredintoabigwarcanoecalledthe‘monscanoe’andtheyhadabout20paddlersandtheytookusdown
09:00 about30miledownthetowhereUziahtheFijianmissionarylivedandwegotthereaboutthreeo’clockinthemorning.Tiredout,worn,wet,notucker.Sohetookusintohishouse.Hiswifegaveus-shehadnoclothes-shehadlap-laps[clothwrap]ofthenatives.Wellshegiveuscleanlap-lapsandwesleptdownthere.Hadagoodbreakfast.NextdaywasEasterSundaywherewehadtogotochurchandhearUziah
09:30 preachhissermonandinthemeantimeourfellas,youknowthemainbodyof‘emwereupinthehills.Theythoughtwe’dbeencapturedandkilled‘causetheyhadn’theardfromusforthreeorfourdays.SoweleftUziahonthewestcoastofBougainvilleandourteamwereoverontheeastcoast,whichmeantwehadtogooveramountainrangewithvolcanoes
10:00 andabout10,000feetandwecouldn’tfindawayoverandwecouldn’tfindanynativeswillingtotakeus.EachdaywehadtogofurtheruptheislandtowardstheJapsand,“No.No.Nowayover.”EventuallywewerealmostintotheircampandJackMackie,theofficer,hesaid,“Thisisnogood.”Sohetookhis,nextvillagewecometo,hetookhisrevolveroutandheldthe
10:30 villagechiefupwithitandsureenoughtheyhadaway.Sotheytookusovertherange.Wewalkednightanddaybecause,youknow,itwassodangerous.Wegotthereandabouttwodayslaterwegottoouroldcampandthere’snoonethere.They’veallgoneandJackMackiewaspokin’aroundandhefoundhistrunkinthe
11:00 bushandwhathappenedwasthat,thingsstartedtogetabithotandthecorporalincharge,DonMcLean,hefiguredthatbettertogetfurtherbackinthehillsbecauseRugenwasprettyexposed.SowelandedthereandJackMackieandoneotherfellahewentbackupthehillsandheleftmeandthesignaller,calledSnowSly,downatRugentomakecontactandlet‘emknowweweresafeand
11:30 back.Well,sowestayedthereacoupleadays.Wehadtheradiosetup,madecontactwitheveryone,let‘emknow.ThentheJapsstartedpokin’aroundinanaeroplane.SowhethertheysawtheantennaornotIdon’tknowbutwestayedthereforthreeorfourdaysandthenwewentbackandjoinedthegeneral
12:00 pieceandwefoundoutthatthelieutandIhad,webothkeptdiariesandthiscorporalhewasveryregimentaland,“You’renotallowedtokeepdiaries,”andsoheburnt‘em.ItwasveryfrustratingbutJackandI,andI’veoftenI’velookedatmydiaries,lookedathisandIcouldn’trealisethefirstfourmonthswereidentical
12:30 butIremembernow,wesatdowntogetherandwentoverwhathadhappenedandrewrotethediariesuptillthattime.Sowegotbackinthehillsandthenwestartedtogetreportsthatalltheoutpostshadbeenchased.TheonesdownatBuinthatwasnearFaisitheywereverylucky.Theystayedinahouse,whichtheyshouldn’thavedone,
13:00 wenttobedandtheygotupandtheJapswereoverabouteightontheseislandsabout20mileaway.Theyknewtheywerethere.Anyhow,theygotupataboutsixo’clockinthemorningandtheysetthebatterychargergoingtochargethebatteryfortheradio.Ittheydidn’thearanythingandthentheyshuttheradiooffandtheyheardmotorsandtheylookeddownthetrackacoupleahundredyards
13:30 awayandtheJapsarelanding.Sotheyhadtosmashtheirradio,headforthebushandtheystayedforawhileandtheycouldseetheJapswerepermanent.Youknow,theyweremakingpermanentsotheymadetheirwayoverthroughthebushandupthespineoftheisland,whichisverymountainous,andtheymadecontactwithacrowdoffour
14:00 othermenwhowereataplacecalledKeita,abouthalfwayuptheisland,andatthattimethe
coastwatcherssaidtheywantedsomeonedownthereinBuinbecausethatwasavitalpartofit.Theyhadabigharbourthereandtheywantedtokeepawatch.Sotheysaidoneoftheciviliancoastwatcherswasgoingbackandcouldtwoofourmengowith‘em.SoJackallottedthe
14:30 corporalsignallerandanotherone,JackWigley,andSlimOttan,togobackwiththisandthentheypickedupthefourmenthatwereatKeitaandthey’dbeenchased.Twohadbeenoutonpatrolandtwohadbeenleftthereandtheyweretalking,youknow,throughthenightandtheirhutwasabouthalfwayupahillandtheyhadnativesontopofahillinan
15:00 O-Pip[OP,ObservationPost]andforsomereasonorotherthesetwoblokesdecidedtogoandcheckonthenativesandsotheywentupthehill,foundthenativesasleep,butatthattimelightswentoneverywhere.TheJapshadlandeddownbelowandluckilytheychargedtothehouse.Theygotsomeofourgear,ourmen’spacksandthat,but
15:30 allthemenweresafe.Sotheythenbandedtogetherandstartedtomaketheirwaybackupthehilltothroughthehillstous.ThesamethinghappenedatNumaNuma,whichisfurtherupthecoast.TheywokeuptoseeaJapboatoutsidebutitwasveryhardtogetintherebecauseofthereefsaroundtheplace.
16:00 Sotheyhadtimetogettheirradioandgetbacktoahideoutthey’dpreparedinthehillsabovetheplantation.TheJapslandedandourfellasthenonceagaintookofftothebushandstartedtomaketheirwaybacktoheadquartersupinthehills.Therestofuswereprettytired,prettysick.Nofood.Youknowtherewasnofood,no
16:30 medicineandwewereupaboutataplacecalledMutahi,whichisabout6,000feet.It’scoldatnight.Youhadtohavealotofblanketsbutthebosswantedtobringthemalltogetherandnotknowanyoneknowwherewewere.SoitwastheSevenDayAdventistChurchandmissionandtheheadboywasfantastic.Sohetookus
17:00 intothebush.Hehadhisvillageknockupacoupleof,theyonlytookhalfadaytobuildahut,coupleahutsandwestayedinthereandhesealedofftheentranceandwithinaboutthreeweeksyoucouldn’ttelltherewasapathinatall.Sowesatthereuntilallthedifferentpartiescameinandthebosswashappythen.Hehad‘emallunderhiscontrol
17:30 againandthatmeant,outsidethetwofellasdownatBuinwithPaulMasonthecoastwatcher,hehadallhismenintheoneplaceagainandsofromthenonwestartedpatrols.Patrolledallthevillages,allthepaths.Metallthenatives.Makeourselves,youknow,wealwaystreatednativeswithagreatlotofrespect.Nevertouchedtheirwomen.Ifwegotanythingfromthemwepaid
18:00 andthat’swheretheJaps,theyusedtojustrape,takewhatevertheywantedingoods.Neverpayanything.
Howdidyoucommunicatewiththenatives?
How?
Howdidyoucommunicatewiththem?
OhwelearnedPidgin[PapuaNewGuineaPidgin].
CanyouspeakPidgin?
Yeah.
Still?
Ohyeah.YouknowI’mabitslownowbut…
Canyou…
WhenIhear‘emtalkingonthething,youknow,Idon’tgetalotofit.Ohyeahwe,it’snothardtolearn.Imean…
Canyousayanythingforthecamera?
18:30 Pidgin?Likethestandardsortofthingyou’dsaytothenatives?
Yeah.Icantellyoutheysawacrosscutsaw,andtheyknewwhatanaxewas,is“akis”andtheysay,“Imolsemlongbratabilongakis.Yupusimigo,yupulimicam,”[Literally:“Itisthesameas(thebrotherof)theaxe.Whenyoupushhim,hegoes,whenyoupullhim,hecomes”]andthatwasasaw.“Bratabilongakis”is“we’recuttingwood”and“Yupusimyugo,yu
19:00 pullimicam,”that’sasaw.Butyouknowweweren’tperfectbutwecouldmakeourselfunderstoodandasIsaid,wetreated‘emwithgreatyouknow,theywerenicereally,lovelypeople.Wetreated‘emwithalottarespectandwhilewewereinthedistricttheywereterriblyloyaltous.Youcouldn’tblametheoneswheretheJapswere.Youknow,Imean,Japswere
19:30 brutal.Imeaniftheydidn’tdowhattheyweretold,theJapswouldkill,burntheirvillagesand
everything.SotheywentovertotheJapsandweunderstoodthat,toacertainextent.SoeventuallyJackgotallthecrowdtogetherandwestayedtogetherforalongwhile.Weusedtogooutonthecoast,ontheplantationstherewerequiteafew
20:00 herdsofcattle,Herefordcattleandthat,andweusedtoearlyinthepiecewecouldgodownandknockoffabeast.We’dtakenativeswithusandwe’dbutcheritandthey’dcartwhatwewantedandweletthemhavetherestbutastimewentonandtheJapanesestartedtheycomedownthecoastandontopofthatthecattlebecamewary.They
20:30 knewtheysawusandsoitusedtotakealotlongerandattimesthereIthinkwe’dgetdowntothejointandwefirstshotwehadtobequickbecausemoreoftenthannotwewereatoneendoftheplantationandtheJapswereattheother.Well,thenativescouldhackabeastupandtheywouldbegone.Therewouldn’tbeahairleftinabout10minutes.Sowegotthose,thiswas
21:00 Marchthe30ththeJapslanded.Soweforthenextfewmonthswejust-itgotabitboringattimes-wewerejustsittingabout.Maybeeverynowandthenyou’dgoonapatrol,goandvisitavillage.Justkeepthereyouknowbutgenerallyspeaking,therewasnothingdoing.Wedidn’tknowanythingaboutthewaruntil
21:30 therewasthiscoastwatcher,hearrangedsuppliestocomeforhimselfandtheysentaplaneupforhim.WenevergotmuchofitbutIthinktherewasaparachuteforusanditgotcaughtonthetailofhisplaneonthewayoutandhetriedtoshootitaway.Hedideverythingbuthefinisheduphesailedbackto,flewbacktoAustraliawithit.Things,weweregetting
22:00 slowlygettingsicker.Wehadnomedicine,noQuinine[antimalarialdrug].Everyonewasormostpeoplewerestartingtosufferfrommalaria.Hungry.Onefella,wehadKeithWalterwasoneoftheelderlyonesandhegotdysenteryandtherewasnowayIcouldtreatdysentery.Ididn’tknowwhatitwaseven.SowewereabitworriedaboutKeithbutatthesametime,
22:30 thisdistrictofficerwhowasabitofanutandhehadaset…
WasthatMasonbyanychance?
Hey?
Mason?
No,no.Thisis
OrRead?
Read.Read.Hewasabitofamongrelinmyopinion.ImeanalotofpeoplelikedhimbutIdidn’tbuttherewasanAustrianplantertherecalledFredUrbanandhewasgoodtousyouknow.Weusedto
23:00 callinandhe’dgiveyouafeedandthatbutJackReaddecidedthat,hewasamenace,hereckonedtheAustrian-German,hemustbeaspyandsohesentwordbacktohisheadquarters,ablokecalled[LieutenantCommanderEric]Feldt,andthereplycome,“Youcarryoutanyactionyoulike.Therewillbenoinquest.”Sowesaid,“Thisisfunny.”Soheorders
23:30 ourofficertosendsomemenandarrestthisFredUrbanandbringhimbackforacourtmartial.Soour,thisblokewasanavylieutenantoverourblokes,althoughhedidn’tknowathingabout,heneverevenjoined,hejustgotmade.Sohesaid,“Yeah,wellbringhimup,”
24:00 andsoJackMackiesentCorporalDonMcLeanandafewblokesofftopickupFredUrbanandbringhimuptobetriedasatraitor,aspy.TheywerehalfwaybackandtheyranintoanotheroneofourpartiescomingbackwithafellacalledKeithWalteronastretcher,whohaddysentery,andFredUrbanluckilyenoughhadsomemedical
24:30 knowledge.Soourblokessaid,“Welllook,howaboutlookingafterKeith?”Hesaid,“Yes.”Sotheysentwordtosaythat,“Fredwon’tbecomin’upforhistrial.”We,andhestayedwithKeithandI’vegotthemedicalreportshemadeeverynowandthenandhecuredhimofthisthingbutweknewhewasn’taspy,youknow.Imeanitwasridiculous.Hereheissavingourlifeandthisotherblokewantin’to,
25:00 youknow,bringhimupandexecutehim.Soeventuallyhedidgetbackthereandtheyhadabitofatrialandtheyputhimonparole.HewasallowedtogotohisplantationbutnottomakeanycontactwiththeJaps,whichhedid.SohecuredKeithandtimewasmarchingon.Wewere,wehad,Japswerestartingtospreadoutdownthecoast
25:30 andwecouldgetdownthereandhavealook,youknow,butwecouldn’tsettleourselvesdowntherebutwhilewewereinthehillstheywereveryreluctant.Firstthingwedidwaswesetupadefence.WehadaVickersgun,that’samediummachinegun,andwehadaBrengun,twoBrengunsandacoupleaTommygunsandifanyonehadacomeupthehillsafterusthey’dabeeninalottatrouble.So
26:00 asIsaid,wekeptonspreadingoutlearningthecountry,assuringthenativesandourbosscomeonabrilliantidea.Inthevillagelifetheyhavewhattheycallgaramuts[nativedrums].They’rebighollowlogs.Theythump‘emwithathinglikeadrumandtheyusedtoplaythesegaramutsforgettingupin
themorning,goingtochurch,comingback
26:30 forlunch.Theywerealwaysplayingit.Sothebosswhenwewentintoadistricthewouldgoaroundandseeallthechiefsandsay,“Well,”whatyoucalltambu[pidginfor“taboo”,forbidden]thegaramuts,“Don’t,notallowedtoplaythegaramutsunlessaJapaneseisinthevicinity.”Fromthenon,ifweheardagaramut,weknewtheJapswerecoming.Theyhadnohopeofcatchingus.Sothatwentonfortherestofourtime.Itwasthebestearlywarningsystemyoucould
27:00 doandthere’sonlyonenightwegotcaughtout.WewasabitworriedbuttheJaps’dnevertravelatnight.Youcouldn’tseeandthenextmorningwestoodtoaboutoneo’clockbutthenextmorningwefoundoutthatthey’dlandedonabarge,offalandingbargedownonthecoastandthenativeshadheard‘emandwasbanginghisdrumandthey’dgotbackon
27:30 andgoneawayagain.Soweweregraduallygettingsickerandsickerandhungrierandhungrierandourbootswerewearingout.Ourclotheshadallgonebutwestillkeptgoing,andonAugustthe7th’42,Iwaswiththeofficer.Wewereprowlingaroundinthescrubdownneartheb(UNCLEAR)seeingwhatwasgoingonandanativepoliceboycaught
28:00 upwithuswithanotetosaythattheAmericanshadlandedonGuadalcanal[SolomonIslands]OhGodwethoughtweweremade.Thought,“They’llbeherenextweek,”andthiswasAugust.Sowegotbacktoheadquartersprettyquickandplaneswerestartingtocomeoverheadalldaynearlyforthestart.ItwastheJapsheadingtowardsGuadalcanal.
28:30 Soonaswesawthem,we’dmakeacountandthenwe’dsend,welloriginallywehadtosendamessagetoPortMoresby.TheysentittoBrisbaneorsomewhereandthenthey’dsendittoHawaiiandHawaiiwouldcomebacktoGuadalcanal.Itmighttakeabout10minutes,quarterofanhourbutshortlywemadedirectcontacttoGuadalcanal
29:00 andwecouldgivethemtwohourswarningoftheplanescoming.SotheYanksandthenourothertwomenatthebottomofBougainville,140mileaway,they’dbeanotherhalfhourorsoaway.They’dreportin.ThentherewasacouplemoreatKennedyItoldyouabout.TheyweredownonthechainofislandsandtheygotareportabouteveryhalfhourandIthinkaboutanhourbefore
29:30 theywerereadyorhalfanhourbeforetheyweredueatGuadalcanal,theAmericansjustgetintotheirMustangsandMarauders[fighteraircraft]andclimbupto30,000feetandbesittingtherewaitingfor‘em.AssoonastheJapsarrivedthey’djustdivedownon‘emandwelistenedtothemontheradioontheirbandandyoucouldhear‘em,“Justlikeshootingfliesdown,”theyweresayingandtheyshotdownhundredsaplanesandthen
30:00 atthesametimewesawalotoftransportshipsouttoseaandwiththeescortandtheyweremakingtheirwaywithreinforcementstoGuadalcanal.Ithinktherewereabout21shipsalltoldandtheysankabout17of‘em.Theywereandtheyhadplentyofwarningandsothatwenton
30:30 fromthenonandfromthenon,theystartedtofeedus.Sothey,youknow,everyfullmoontheCatalinaswouldleaveTownsville.Oneplanewouldhaveourstoresonandthey’dhaveanothercoupleaplaneswiththemandtheywouldgoandbombBukaPassageandkeeptheirheadsdownwhiletheplanedroppedthestorestous.Itwasratherfunnybecausewewereverynaïveabout,didn’tknow
31:00 anythingaboutdroppingstoresandtheysaid,“Well,getintoaclearinginthejungle.Giveusanapproximatemapcoordinationsowecanfinditandlightfourfires.”Wellintheearlypieces,weusedtodoaperfectjob.We’dbuildlittlestockadesandfill‘emupwithcopra,driedcoconut,andlightthatanditwasaterrificfireandwe’dalsobeabletogodownonthebeach
31:30 anditwaseasyforthem.Itwasflatcountry.Itwaseasyforus.Itwasprettyopencountryandthey’dcomeoverohgenerallybetweenmidnightandthreeo’clockinthemorningandfirsttime,youknow,wedidn’tknow,westandingoutthereinbetweenallthefireslookingup,waitingfortheparachutestocomebutthetroublewas,
32:00 theyhadlotsofboots,bagsofflour,bagsofsugarandallthatstuff.They’dputhalfabaginafullbagandwhenithitthegrounditwouldn’tburstandwe’restandinghereandwecouldseetheplanecirclingyouknow,“Oh,it’sgreat.”Thenextminutetherewasbagsofbootsandbagsofflourlandingallroundus.Sowehadtoheadforthebushquick.Thenafterthey’ddonethat,theydropped
32:30 theirchutes.Sowewokeupandthatinthefinish.Youknow,wealwayswaittilitwasover.TheydroppedIthinkabout13packagestousandthebestpackagewasapackageofmailbecausewehadn’thadanymailforninemonths.Anyhow,itwasinthebushandsosomeofit
33:00 wentawayfromtheclearingabitandwecouldn’tfinditandtherewastwoorthreepackages,whichisalottastuff,andsoweneverfounditforthreeorfourdaysandwesuddenlywokeupandwegotthepoliceboystoquestionthenativestherethatweretherecarryingforusandwhathadhappenedwas,they’dfounditinthebushandtherewastinsofstuffyouknowandeverything.Sotheytookitbacktotheir
33:30 villageandburieditandnevertoldusaboutit,butthepoliceboysfoundoutaboutitandsowehadtoholdacourtandgetalltheguiltypersonsandpunish‘em.Wellthebiggestpunishmentwas,inallthese
villagesthere’sagovernment-appointedofficial,liketheheadofthevillagewasthe‘kukarai’andthen‘luluai’wasthesecondincommandandthentheyhadadoctorboyandateacherboyandtheyallhad
34:00 littlepeakcapswithdifferentcolouredribbonsaround‘emfordifferentjobs.Sowetooktheirhatsoff‘emandwefined‘em30shillingsandtold‘emnottodoitagainbutthisoneblokeneverturnedup.Hewentbush.Sowesaidsendthebushthegaramutsgoandtellhimtocomeinotherwisewe’dburnhishousebuthenevercomein,sowehadtocarryoutthethreatandwe
34:30 wentinandburnedhishousebutweneverhad…youknow,theytookallthesepeopleandput‘eminsideafencewhilewewerehavin’thetrialandneverletanyoneoutandtheyneverhadfood.Therewascryin’kids.Itwasterriblebutwehadtodoitandweneverhadanymoretrouble.
Wellwhydidyouhavetodoit?
Wellifwe’dalet‘emgetaway,they’dhavestolenthelotthenexttime.Youknowthatwasourfoodand
35:00 itwasnotonlyfood,theydroppeduspetrolandthingsforthechargersandbitsfortheradioand,asIsaid,themail.Wellifwe,youknow,hadn’tastopped‘emandtheyaccepttheirpunishment.Therewasnodoubtthey’dhaverealisedthey’dtheydeserveditandtheynever,youknowwethought,“Ohgee,theymightturnagainstusnow,”buttheynever.Not
35:30 tilneartheend.
Whatdoyoumean“nottilneartheend”?
Til,well,inthefinishandI’mgettingabitaheadofmeself.
No,that’sokay.Youcanspeakaboutit.It’salright.No,youcanstilltalkaboutitbecausewecan…
Yeahwell.
Getbacktotheoriginalstory.
Inthefinish,theJapswerestartingtopresshard.Theywereevenstartin’topressus.They’dchasedus.Imeanweusedtogodowntothebeachand
36:00 getoursupplies.Well,theywokeup.Thefullmoon,suppliesandtheywouldhavepatrolsout.Sowehadtogo,welloncewewentfurtherdowntheisland,youknow,wherethere’snoneofusandnoneofthembutitwastoofartogetthesuppliesback.Sowehadtobackintothehillsanditwasadangerousjob.Sowe
36:30 didthoughtthatthenativesmightturnagainstusbuttheyneverandtowardstheendtheJapanesestartedtogettothem,“Ifyoudon’ttelluswherethesoldiersarewe’llburnyourvillage.We’llknocktheheadofftheheadman,”whichtheydiddoacoupleofplaces.SoitwasitgotabitdesperatethenbutwewellitwasAugust.
37:00 RightuptillChristmaswewerequitesafe,youknow,Imeanwedidalotofdamageinthattime.
HowdidtheJapanesecommunicatewiththenatives?
Well,asItoldyouearlier,therewasalotofJapaneseworkingontheplantationsandtherewasyouhaveafellacalledtherecruiterandheusedtogoupintothehills,thisisinpeacetime,and
37:30 collectnativestoworkontheplantations.WelltherewasafellacalledTashira,aJapanese,andhewastherecruiterandconsequentlyhekneweverylittletrackaroundtheplacefromgoingthereandwhentheJapanesearrived,hecameinwiththemasanintelligenceofficerandhegatheredabouthimalotofnativesfromdownwheretheywere.
38:00 Whattheycallthe‘blackdogs’andhegaveusabitofaroughtimeforawhilebutthenativeswherewewerestayedloyaltousuntilitgottoomuch.Imeantheywereburningtheirvillagesandrapingtheirwomenandkillingtheirleaders,youknow,youcouldn’tblamethemforturningagainstus,causewehadnothingtoshow‘em
38:30 untiltheplanesstartedturningup.Alright?Wegotsomeleft?
Yeah.
Andsoforthenextfewmonthswekeptpatrolling,keptaneyeontheJaps.Kept,Imeanforsomereasonorothertheynevertriedtotaketheplanesawayfromus.Theykeptbringing‘emoverandwekeptreportingandtheykeptgettingshotdown.Atthesame
39:00 time,ourtwofellasdownatBuin,theyhadseenthebigfleetgettingreadyfortheCoralSeabattleandgavewarningthatthatwascomingdown.SoIcanremember,youknowitwasfunny.Iwasononenighttheysaidtome,ohtheysentmeandanotherfelladowntogetsomebeef.Itwasacoupleatimesreallyandthistimewegotdownthere.
39:30 Welefthomeyouknowearlyinthemorning.Itwasalongwaydowntothecoastandwesleptdownonthecoast.Thenatives,wewouldn’tsleepinthehutsbecausethenatives,theJaps’dhearaboutitandpunish‘em.Sowesleptoutintheopen.Gotupaboutsixo’clockinthemorningandofcoursethesecowsbythenthey’dbeenusedtousandtheytookoffandwechased‘emandwechased‘em.Itwasaboutthreeorfouro’clockintheafternoonbeforewecaught
40:00 one.Shotone.Thenativesbutcheredhimup.Wetookthehindlegandmaybethefilletsorwhatnotandtheystrappedthemandstartedtocarry‘emupandtherestofitthey’dtaketotheirvillagetopayforthecarryingandsotherewasafellacalled,itwastheMcDonaldwithmeandhewaswirylittleblokebuthewastired.We’dbeen
40:30 goin’fortwodays,nofoodandrunningyouknowandsoIsaidtohim,“Well,”therewasashortcut,“youtaketheshortcut,”butI’dhavetogowiththebeefcausetheotherway’swhereyoupickedupthecarriers.Theycarryitfromonevillagetothenextvillageandthenchangecarriers.SoitwasgettinglateandIwashurryingalongandIgotlostbecauseallthesetracks,yougotno
41:00 idea,andItookthewrongtrackandI’mwalkin’alongit.Ididn’trealiseIwaslosttillIstruckablokeinagarden.ThisfellaandIspoketohimand,“Oh,”youknow,“yeah.I’monthewrongtrack.”SoIlearntfromhimwheretogobutbythattimeitwasgettinglateandIwashurryingtryingtogethomebeforedarkandIsupposeIwasaboutthreeorfourmileawayfromhomeanddarknesscameandyou’vegotnoidea.Whendarknesscomesit’sjustnohope.Ihadaboxofmatches
41:30 andyouknowIcouldn’t,I’dlightamatchorahandfulamatchesandthey’dburnout.SoIcouldn’tkeepwalkinginthedarkbecausetherewascliffseithersideofme.SoIjustlaydownontheground.Iwastired.Iwashungry.IwasdispiritedandsoandthenitstartedtorainandI’mlyin’inthistrackandIcouldhearthepigssnufflin’intheundergrowthandthey’deatyouiftheywerehungryenough.
42:00 Youbet…
Tape7
00:32 Backin,thepigsareclosin’inonme,whichwastrue,andIwas,youknow,Iwashungry.Ihadn’thadafeedfortwodays.Iwastired,I’dbeenrunning,andsoIlayonthetrackandIsaid,“Well.”It’sallIcoulddo.Icouldn’tseetogoanywhere.Itstartedtorain.
Canyoujusttakemebackalittlebitandexplainwhat’shappeninghere?
Yeah.WellI
01:00 Justbacktrackalittlebitandseeifyoucanexplainittome.
Well,twoofuswentdowntogetthemeat,killedthebeastafterabouteighthours’run.Mematewastired.Isaidtohim,“Shorttrackhome,”youknow,there’sashortcut.Nonatives.SoIhadtogo‘roundwiththebeefaroundthelongwaytopick,youcouldpickupacarrieratthatvillage.They’dcarrytothenextvillage,changecarrierstothenextvillage.SoIsaid,“Well,I’llgowiththat,”
01:30 andIgotmeselflostandIgotbehindscheduleandIgotcaughtoutaboutthree,fourmileoutofthevillagewherewewereinthedarkandsoyoujustcan’tmoveanditwassteepfallseitherside.SoIjustlaydown.Ithink,“WelltherewasnothingIcando.I’llhavetowaitforthemorning.”IlaydownanditstartedtorainandIstartedtelling,
02:00 yougetthewildpigsandtheyarewild.They’lleatyou,youknow,andIcouldhear‘emsnufflingaroundinthebushes.Ithought,“God.”AnyhowIwasjustgotdowntoaboutthelowestebbwhenIsawalightcomingdownthetrack.Itwastwomatesofmine,ColFrancisandablokecalledBernieSwanson,andMcDonald,theotherbloke,hadtakentheshortcuthome.He’dgothomeandtold‘em.Hesaid,“Well,Sandymustbeonthetracksomewhere,”and
02:30 I’dgotaheadofthebeefcarriers,causetheycarryonalotyouknow.Imeantheygottamakealottanoiseandalottadiscussionbeforetheydoanything.SoIleft‘emandIsaid,“Well,”youknow,“I’llgoahead.Youbringthebeefupafterwards,”whichtheydid,butoldColandBerniethey’dsaid,“Well,we’dbettergodownthetrackandsee,”andtheybroughtahurricanelampandtheybroughtdown,ohitwasfunnybecauseI’dgot
03:00 chafedinmecheeksofmebehind.Iwassweatin’andsoIcouldn’twalkandIsaid,“Well,I’llwalk.”SoIfinishedup,Itookmestrides[pants]offandIwalkedwithnostridesandthey’regoingthroughthevillageandIcouldhearallthevillagewomentitteringandlaughingatmeandI’mgoingthroughthevillage.AnyhowIgotbacktothehutsandIthought,“Ohwell,I’llhavesomethingtoeat,”andtherewasn’taskerrick[trace]ofanythingtoeat.Nothingtoeat.Noteatodrink.
03:30 Ijustsatdownandcried.Ithought,“Gee.”AnyhowIwenttobedandtheylandedwiththemeataboutthreeo’clockinthemorningbutIneverheard,butthatwasmyworstnight,Ithink,therebecausethere’sjusteverythingwentwrong,youknow,andanyhowwegotoveritbuttheoldnativestheywere
funny.Theyweregood.Youcouldleave‘emontheir
04:00 own.They’dbringitupyouknowbutohGodtheymadeanoiseandtheyusedtolight‘bon-bons’aswecalled‘em.Itwasapalmleaffortwoof‘emandthey’dcarryallnightbutthatwasaboutohIsupposeinAugust.No,it’dbeinSeptemberIsuppose.TheYanks,youknow,wewerestill…
Whichyearwasthis?
‘42.
Still‘42?
See,theYankslanded.Itmighthaveevenbeenlater.TheylandedonAugust7th,
04:30 ‘42.That’srighttoo.ToldSergei[interviewer].Theystartedtofeedusthenandtheyusedtodropsomegoodsuppliesandtheairforceblokeswereterrific,youknow,mustsayabout‘emtheyusedtoleaveTownsvilleandthey’dbeintheairforover30hours.They’dcomeuprightoveryouknowJapterritory,nothin’butJapplanes,andthey’dcomeupoverusandtheyusedtosignal,
05:00 “Goodluck,”’andthey’dturnaround.We’dthink,“Youluckybuggersyou’regoinghome,”buttheyweren’t.TheyweregoingfromBougainvilleacrosstoNewBritaintodropsuppliesovertherethengohomeanditwas,ohGod,theynever,youknow,wonder.Theyweren’tallshotdownandthey’dalwaysputacoupleabottlesawhiskeyorrumorsomethingtooforustohaveadrinkwithanddropuscigarettes.YouknowIthought,“Godthey’redoingenoughasitwas,”andtwo…
TheAmericans?
05:30 No,yeah,ahAustralians.Australianagents,Catalinas.OhtheYankswerealrightasfarasthatwentbutweneversawthem.Thoughwesaw,Iwaswalkingoneday,thatwasoneofmygreatestthings.IwasdownatinthejungleonmyowngoingsomewhereorcomingfromsomewhereandIcomeacrossthepacketorthepaperoffapacketofWrigley’schewinggum.
06:00 It’dbeoneoftheFlyingFortresses[AmericanB-17bombers]werecomingupandbombingBukaandgoingbackandtheymusthavedroppeditoutsomewhereorother.Itlandedonthebloodypath.Ithought,“God.It’sthebestthingI’veeverseen,”andbutwekept,inallthistimefromJanuary,wehadn’tgotamailout.People,Lucetteandthem,didn’tknowwherewewereor,and
06:30 IthinksometimeinSeptembertheyweretoldtheycouldwritetousandwewereatthemomentsafe,sothatwassomething,butwecouldn’tgetanymailoutandsowe,youknow,wewiththesuppliesstartingtocomein,itbuggedusupabitandwegotthemail,thoughitwasfunnybecausethefirstthingthey’ddowhentheylookedforisthemailbagandthey’dopenitupandbuggertherest.They’dopen,readtheir
07:00 mailrighttherewheretheygotit.Soeventually,theYankswereinrealtroubledownbelow.Theywerejusthangingonbytheskinoftheirteethbutwekepttheirnoseinfrontbecausetheycould,theywereshootingalltheseplanesdown.Theycouldn’tgetanyreinforcementsdownbecausetheYanksknewtheywerecoming.Wetold‘emandsotheywerequitechuffed
07:30 youknow.Theyeventuallysentword,youknow,howmuchtheyappreciatedusandtheywantedtogiveeveryoneadecorationbutourgovernmentsaid,“Well,it’sright,too,”saidit’dcheapenthedecorationstoomuchiftheygiveeveryoneone,sotheygaveusfoursilverstars.Thatwenttothebossandthreesignallersbutthatwasalrightbutwekeptbattlingon
08:00 thereandthingsweregettingworseandworseasfarasourhealthgoes.
Whatwasyourmoralelikeorthemoraleamongstthemen?
Good.Good.Itreallyyouknowconsideringthesituation.Wehadtheseoldblokeswithusandtheywerefantastic.Theysteadiedusyoungblokeswe,youknow,wewerealloverthebloodyplace.Didn’tknowwhatweweredoin’buttheseyoungblokestheoldblokesyouusedtolaughbecausewe’dbesitting
08:30 inthevillageandyou’dhaveteayouknow.Particularlywhentheystarteddropping,youknow,wehadabittoeatorevenbeforewealwayshadvegetablesofsomesort.Sweetpotatoorsomethingandthenafterteayou’dseealltheoldblokes.They’dgetoverinacornerandthey’dbediscussingthesituation.Theywouldn’ttalktousaboutit,sotheykeptupthemorale.Our
09:00 moralewas,youknow,not…weweren’tbubblingoverwithlaughterbutIcan’tremembereverthinkfeelinghopeless.Youknowwealwaysbelieved,andfornoreason,believedthatwe’dgethomebecausewereallyshouldn’thavegonehomereally.IfithadbeenAustraliantroopsintheplaceandtheJapanesetroopsandwe’dbeenJaps,we’dhavesacrificedsomethingtoget‘emoutbuttheJapswouldn’tcomein
09:30 afterus.SobutwekeptIwasjustthinking,we,youknow,themountainsgoupto10,000feetandthere’sMountBalbiandMountBaganathere,volcanoes,anditwashostilecountryyouknowandwegotupsixfurtheryoucouldn’tseeabloodything.Youknowwecouldheartheplanesgoin’overbutyoucouldn’tsee‘emforcloudbutweusedtopatrol.Ifairlywellrememberone
10:00 nightoronedayBernieSwansonandIwereupinthehillspokingabout.Wealwaysyouknowjusttoseewhat’sdoingorifthere’sanewtrackorsomethingandupthatfartheyhadn’tseenmanywhitemenbutwetreated‘emwithalottarespectandtheyknewitandtheyalwaystreateduswellandyou’dcometoavillageandinpeacetimetheywenttowhattheycalla‘housekiap’[governmentguesthouse]Akiap
10:30 wasthegovernmentheadandtheyhadahousethere,becausethepatrolofficerscomethrough,they’dstopinthathouseandyouknowawayfromthevillage.Sotheyusedtoletususethehousekiapandthey’dgenerallybringusafeed.Itwouldgenerallybeabitasweetpotato,taro,maybesomebananas.Youknowtherewasn’tmuch.They’dgiveyouwhattheyhad.Anyhow,thisnightBernieandIgotthereandtheoldchiefcomesout
11:00 withtwoplatesofbeautifulchickenstew.Geez,youknowwehadn’thadanythinglikethatforyears.Soweweresittingtherewhoppingthatintoourselfandweusedto,it’safunnythingyoukeepthinkingnow,weusedtosmokelikemadbecausethenativesusedtogrowabitoftobaccoanditwasprettyroughbuttheymadewhattheycalled‘Buintwist’[nativetwistorblacktwisttobacco]andwe’dupwecouldmakeacigaroutofit.We’d,
11:30 youknow,putabitofstickingtapearoundtheend.Weweresittin’backafterthischickenfeedhavingasmokeandIsaidtoBernie,“Ican’tseeanyWASDOUBLEQUOTECHOOKsaroundhere.Hemustakilledthelastoneforus,”see,andIsaid,anyhowhecomebackforthedirtyplatesandthat,andIsaidyouknow,“What’snamesinthisfella?IsitWASDOUBLEQUOTECHOOK?”Isaidyouknow.“Ohno,no,no”hesaid,“Pussycat.”BloodycatandI’deatenit.Bernieheadedoffforthe…
12:00 Isaid,“Well,itwasalright.”Ohthepooroldbugger.Becausetheplanterscouldn’tkeepacat.Thenativeswouldknockitoffallthetime.Ilaughedbutanyhowyouknowthatsortof,thosesortofthingshappenedallthetime.Imean,withPidgin,there’sthings,ImeanIrememberourdoctor,hethoughthewasprettygoodyouknowandhewantedabike
12:30 andhewenttotheChineseshop,see,andhesaidhewanteda‘push-push’andtheoldChinamanlookedathim,chasedhimouttathebloodyshopcausehehadacoupleanicedaughtersand‘pushpush’washavingsex.Heshouldasaida‘wheelie-wheel’.Anyhow,poorolddoc.Hereckoned,oh,therewassomefunnythingsthenbuttheChinesewere…
CanyoutellmesomeoftheotherPidgintermsorphrasesyoulearnt?
13:00 Ohlavatory’sthe‘housepakpak’.‘Susu’ismilk.Whatdotheycallit?‘Cockarau’wasachicken,‘kio’wasegg.WeorIusedtobeyouknowweusedtobeabletospeaklikeanythingbutyouforgetitandI
13:30 listensometimesyouseeonthetellie[television]youknow.Ican’tunderstandabloodywordtheysay‘causetheytalktooquickformenowbutwealwayscouldgetitandI’vegotavery,verygreatsoftspotforthenativesinBougainville,youknow,andthey’vebeenintroubleenoughlatelywiththeBougainvilleRevolutionaryArmy.I’vegotphotosthereofthegeneralandallbecauseafterIwrotethebooktheygotin,
14:00 therewasablokecalledMosesHavini,hewasoneoftheBukachiefsbuthespendsallhistimeatUnitedNationsnow.He’smarriedtoMarilyn,whowasanAustraliangirl,andshegotintouchwithme.Shesaidshe’ssopleased,becausethey’vebeentryingforyearstoconvincetheUnitedNations,ourgovernment,thattheyhadnotbeenpro-Japan,allpro-Japanese.Wellmybookcomeoutandyouknowwe’vegotnothingbutpraiseforthe
14:30 nativesanditpleasedthemsomuchandI,Imean,I’mstillkeepcontactwiththemandIwrotetohertheotherdaytoget,oracoupleaweeksagonow,totryandgettheinsidestoryofwhat’sgoingonnowandhaven’thadareply,butIsaidyouknowtheytalkaboutdowntheSolomons[SolomonIslands],they’rewilddownthere.Isaid,“They’llneverget‘emiftheydon’t
15:00 want‘emtoget‘em.”Imean,theycouldn’tcatchusandwewerewhite,youknow.Soanyhowbutwekeptpatrollingandwekeptsendingtheserepliesbackbuttherewasalot,oh,notalot,butafewmissionaries,sisters,fathers,afewChinese.TheChinesewereterrific.They’reneveranytrouble.Therewasafewplanterswhowerealwaysgrizzling[complaining].
15:30 Imean,theywantedtostayontheirplantationstokeep‘emgoing,eventhoughtheJaps,they’dtradewiththeJaps,butaftertheykilledPercyGoodalltheplanterstooktothehillsanddemandedwefeed‘emandwedothis,andsomeof‘emwerealrightbutourbossusedtoalwaysgive‘emhalfoursuppliesandweusedtohavetogoonhalf,andthere’safewathemaboutandthesistersandtherewasaFatherLobell,
16:00 who’sAmerican,FrenchCanadian,I’mnotsure.Buthewasverygoodtous.Hehadabitofmedicalknowledgeandifwegotintotoomuchstrife,we’dgethim.Imeanwedidn’tlikehimtocomenearusbecausethey’dgetblamed,youknow,butacoupleatimeswehadtocallonhimandhe’dcomeandhelpedus,andtherewasFatherSullivanandafewofthemandsohewasFatherLobell.
16:30 Ohno,BishopWadesorry,therewasabishopthere,TomWade,andhewasworriedabouthisflock.Theywouldn’tleavethenativesbuttherewasthenursingsistersandmissionarysistersandtheywereinterribledangerwiththeJapsabout.Someof‘emhadbeenkilleddownthereandrapeddownfurtherandsohewastryingtoget‘emoutanditbythistimeitwaswellintoDecember
17:00 andsoJackRead,thecoastwatcher,hetried.Theywouldn’ttakeanynotice.SoBishopWadesaid,“CanIgetonthephone,ontheradioandtalkdirecttoGuadalcanal,”whichisonly400mileawayandsohegotonthereandhegotontoGeneralPatchor[Admiral]Nimitzorsomeoneandhesaid,youknow,“IamanAmerican.These
17:30 areAmericanwomenuphere.Wewanttoget‘emout,”andsowithinacoupleadaystheanswercomethat,“There’llbeasubmarinecallinginwithinafewdays.”ItwasroundChristmas,roundNewYear’sEve.AnyhowtheyturnedupNewYear’sEveandwehadgatheredallthesepeople,got‘emindowntothebeachandtheywerefantastic,the
18:00 submarineservice.We’djustlightacoupleafiresandthey’d,youknow,onacompassbearingandtheycouldbringintheirsubintoalittlebay.Thisfirstone,hewascoming,itcomeupandtherewasaJapshipinthebay.Well,theyhadtogodownandsitthereandthatwasonNewYear’sEveandtheymustabeencelebratingbecausedownonthe
18:30 coastandwehadallthesistersthere,mostofthefathers.Therewasonemissingandsomeoftheplantersandtherewastwoplanters,theywerenotwell,youknow,shewasabitchtoherhusbandandshewasawayupthetracksomewhere,stillcomingsee.Sotheysenttwoofourblokesbacktohurrythemupbecausethesub[submarine]wasdueinandshecomedownandshehadbloodychestsofstuff
19:00 shewantedtotakehome,see,andherhusbandwasthereandtheysaid,“Welllook,thesisters,thatandthemenwillhavetomissout,orsomeof‘em,”youknow,“becausethere’snoroom,”andsoaboutmidnightwecouldhearafaintcalling,“Waaaay,”inthebloodydistanceseeandsomeonesaid,“That’scomingoutfromnearthereef,”buttheygotacoupleoflakatois
19:30 theywerecalled,canoes,andtheywentoutandthesetwoYanksontherubberboatwerestuckonthereefandthey’dbeenintothebloodybrandyandtheywereasfullasboots.Readwentoutandtheywouldn’tmovetillhewentandhadadrinkwith‘emandsotheycameinandtheygotthenursesandthat,thesisters,andallthewomen,theythought,andtheygothalfwayoutandhere’sblokethisClaude,
20:00 ohI’veforgottenhisnamenow,don’tmatter.ThisClaus,he’ssittinginthemiddleofthebloodyboatwithhiswifewithallherbloodychestsyouknow.Sotheytookthemoutandtheycomeoutandtheytookallthewomen,allthemen.Theymusthavebeenbloodybulgingatthesidesandsotheyleftus.Theysentussometobaccoandsomedrinkandbatteriesforourwirelessanditwasgood.ThatwasonNewYear’sEveandwegot
20:30 upinthemorning,youknow,wellwestayedonthebeachandcleanedupsotherewouldn’tbeanything.Sotheygotawayandtheytookmail.Weknewthe,theysaid,youknow,“Giveusaletter,”andwejustwrotelettersandputtheaddressonthebackofthepaperandthesisterswenttoNewZealandI’ve,andtheyput‘eminenvelopesandsent‘embackbuttheykeptin
21:00 touch.Itwasoneofthesisters,I’veforgottennow,shewrotetomequiteafewtimesduringthebookbutthey’realldeadnowandFatherLobell,Ithinkhe’sdead,butitwasquiteanexperienceItellyaandsowewerethenunburdened.Itwasaterrificstrainoffusyouknow.Wethoughtweworriedabout‘emallthetimeandwestillhadtheChinese.Thepoorold
21:30 Chinese.Theynevergotofftillabloodylongwhileafterwardsandtherewasoneplanterleft,blokecalledBobStewart.HefinishedupinAngau[AustraliaandNewGuineaAdministrativeUnit].Oh,heledanarmyofhisownonBougainvilleinthefinish.Wecameback.Sowegotridofthat,wasinDecember,NewYear’sEve.Well,westillhadtheGuadalcanalwas
22:00 notsecureduntilabouttheFebruaryIthink,February,andsoafterthatyouknowwewerealmostredundant.Weweresick.Weweretired.WewerebloodyfedupandsoafterawhileandJackMackiejustsaidtotheboss,“Sendamessageoutadvisingthatwe
22:30 beevacuated,”becausetheplaneswerecomingupeachday,reconnaissanceplanes.Theysaweverythingwasgoingon.Ashesaid,thehalfofthesectionwerejustrotten.Nohopeatall.Ifwehadtosurvive,we’dhavetogoupinthehills.Wewouldbenogood.Itwasgettingdifficulttogetsuppliestous.
23:00 Thenativeswerestartingtogetrestless.Imean,they’djustputupwithitforalongwhile.TheJapswerereallyleaningon‘em.Hesaid,“Well,theonlyobject,”hesaid,“istoevacuateeveryone.”Hesays,“Thejob’sdone,”butReadandMason;theywereapairaratbags,really.Masontoldliesaboutus.Hereckonedwedesertedhimandthat,butit’sinthebook,weneverdidthat,andthey
23:30 hadreadsomewhere,itwasdownGuadalcanal,ablokemetandwalkeddownthebeachandmettheYanksastheylandedandReadwantedtodothatbutRead,allthetimewewerethere,hehadusbetweenhimandtheJaps.Theyhadtogetthroughustogettohim.Hewasquitesafe.Sono,hesaidandtoaddinsulttoinjury,hewasafriend,
24:00 agreatfriendoftheheadofthecoastwatchers,CommanderFeldt,andsohemustasaidsomethingtoFeldtthatweweren’tcooperatingwithhim,whichwewouldn’t,becausehehadnoidea,youknow.We
said,“Whataboutcasualties?”Hewastryingtoarrangeraidsyouknow,“Whatcasualties?”Youknow.Allthis.He’sgotnoidea.Sowewouldn’ttakeanynoticeofhimordowhathewanted.SohetoldFeldtthat
24:30 it’sbettertogivehimanewlottablokes.Sothenextthingweknowisthatwe’renotbeingevacuated,we’rebeingreplacedandtheymadeReadinchargeofthesection,causehewasanavylieutenantoverourlieutenantsohecalledameetingandallthetimeIwasthereIonlysawReadtwice.Youknowhenevercamedownsohecomedown
25:00 andhecalledthemeetingandtoldushewasinchargeandwhathewasgonnadoandsomeofourblokes,youknow,oldtoughhardoldbastards,theygotupandsaid,“Well,MrRead.We’regoinghome.”“Theonlyplaceyoublokesaregoing,”hesaid,“isonpatrol.”Hesaid,“I’mgettingnewguns,newwirelesses,newthatandyou’llbegoingonpatrol.”“Andareyoucomingwithus,MrRead?”“Ohno,I’llhavetostaybehindon
25:30 theradio.”Sotheysaid,“Well,youcangotobuggery,we’renotgoing”,see,andofcourseheheadedoffandyouknowwehadsometoughblokeswithusthough.Theywouldn’ttakeanynonsensefromthisratbag.Sohegotontheblower[radio]thenanddidn’tsayto,hesaidwewereincompetent.Masonsaidperhapshecouldmakegoodsoldiersoutofus,youknow,allthissortarubbish.Sotheysentthemessagedownthatweshouldbe
26:00 replacedandsoithappened.Imeanwewouldhavebeen,halfofuswerealright,wewouldhavebeenpreparedtostaythereforalittlewhilelongerbecausethesenewblokeshadnohope.Theycouldn’tspeakthelanguage.Theydidn’tknowthenatives.Theydidn’tknowthecountryandtheywerejustsheermurdertosend‘em.Soanyhow,halfoursixwentoutattheendofMarch
26:30 and11ofusstayedbehindand11ofthesenewblokescameinandwestayedwith‘emtogive‘emsomehope,youknow.Itwasfunnybecausetheycomeinaboutmidnightandourblokeswentoutandtheycomeinandtherewasyoujustimaginestandingonthe,youknow,400milebehindtheenemyline,“NowwhatthebloodyhellamIgonnado?”andallofasuddenour
27:00 nativeswerelitallthesebloodytorches,youknow,bonfiresandthereweretheycouldseeyouformilesbutwehadtodoit.Wecouldn’tstayonthebeach.Ifwe’dabeenonthebeachinthemorningwe’dabeengoneandtheseblokessaid,“OhGod.”Youshouldaseen‘emgo.Theywentupthehillstwiceasfastaswedid.Sowetook‘emupandtheywas,Idon’tknow,theywereallsergeants.Thatwasthebiggesttroublewith‘em.Theyallwantedtobein
27:30 chargebuttheywere,we,I’mstill,youknow,westillhavereunionswiththefewthatareleftbuttheyweregoodblokesbutthepoorbuggershadnoideawhatwasgoingonandwegotupoffthebeachabityouknowandwestoppedatavillageandtheysaid,“WherearetheJaps?”andwesaid,“Downthenextvillage.”“Oh,God!”Andtheywereupataboutfouro’clockandon,Imean,theJapswouldn’tmoveatnight.Wegotupatdaylightandwe’dgoandwe’dbesafe.
28:00 Sowetook‘emin.Weshowed‘em,youknow,theyweregoodsoldiers,theysortofbelittled,took‘emout,youknow,“Imighttaketwooutthisway,”andsomeoneshowed‘emtheislands.Talkedtothenativesabout‘embutthenativeswerestartingtoget,youknow,fedupwithitIsupposeandwhentheysawusgoing,
28:30 theysaid,“Wellwhat’sgoingon?”Youknow,“Themastersaregoing.’”Sowetriedtoconvince‘emtheseblokeswerealrightbuttheseblokescouldn’ttalkto‘em.Sowestayedamonthwith‘emandwesaid,“Well,we’dbettershowyouwhatwedowithadrop.”Youknow,supplydropfortheplane.That’salright.Sowearrangedthatbutbythattimewe
29:00 werewaybackupinthehills.We’d,youknow,wehadtoget‘causeassoonasthefullmooncomeouttheJapswereonthemove.Theyknewsupplieswerecomingandtheyknewtheyweregonnagetbombed.Sowehadtogetwaybackinthehillsandwetook,therewasaboutthreeofourblokes,Iwasn’tthere,aboutthreeofourblokesandthreeoftheirswentuptogetthesesuppliesandabout
29:30 12o’clockatnight,youcouldhear‘emcoming.Theycamein.Theycameinandtheydidarun,turnedtotheleftandcomearound.Comeinagain.Droppedthesupplies.Turnedtotheleftandcomearound.Comeinthenexttimeandtheyneverdroppedsuppliesandtheyturnedrightandwentstraightintoamountainandthepilot,theco-pilotandtheengineergotkilledstraightoutandourblokescouldn’tfind‘eminthedark.
30:00 Anyhow,theywaitedtilldaylightandtheyfound‘em,andtherewassixmoreandtheyhadbrokenlegsandohGod,youknow,allsortsofinjuries.Deepcutsandtheyweresittin’inpoolsofpetrolyouknowandfrightenedtobloodywellmove.Soluckilythenewblokesbroughtinamedicalsergeantwith‘emandhewasgood,ablokecalledLuckyLatimer,whowasoriginallyinourcompany,andhegottheseblokes
30:30 andhegot‘emallmobilebutthatwastodayandweweresupposedtocatchthesubmarinethenextdayortwodayslaterandwesaid,“Wellwe’llgetthesewounded,”couldn’tgetthedeadoutoftheplane,wejusthadtoleave‘em,“Get‘emdowntothebeachandtake‘emhomewithusonthething,”and…
Doyouhaveanyideaofwhatcausedtheplane…?
Hey?
Doyouhaveanyideawhatcausedtheplanecrash?
31:00 Why?
Nojustoneofthose,theseblokesdon’tknow.Youknowtherewashejustturnedthewrongway.Whethertheydidn’tknow,whetherthepilotandco-pilothadswitchedoverorwhyhegotabitflummoxed[confused]whentheynevergotthestuffout.Hejustturnedand“bang,”straightyouknow.
Sothepilotandco-pilotweredead?
Itjust,dunno,andwellthey’realldeadnow,allthe,wellI’vebeen
31:30 talkingtooneof‘em.Hesaid,“Wedon’tknowwhathappened,”andtheydon’tknowwhyhediditbutanyhowtheycouldn’t,therewastwoofourblokes,BillDalbyandColFrancis,andtheytookthebedsbunksoutofthejointandmadestretchersoutof‘em.Tooktheweaponsoutoftheplanetouseandthentheystartedtocarry‘emdownthehill,themountains.Theywereupabout8-10,000
32:00 feetanditstartedtorain.Theywent,youknow,anditrainedandrainedandrainedandtheywereuptotheirhocks[ankles]inmudandtheyjustcouldn’tget‘emdowntherebutcouldn’tget‘emacrosstheriver.Sothenewscomethrough,“Leave‘emthere.We’llgetaplaneinfor‘emlaterandyoutwoblokesaregottagetdowntothebeach,”andsotheycamedownand
32:30 weweregettin’ready.ThatwastheendofAprilandtheother13ofus,Ithinkitwas,gotontheplaneorweretogetonthesubmarineandcomehomebutitwasabitofatrialtoobecausewehadtogotoanewspottobepickedup.TheJapshadwokeuptowewerepicking‘emupataplacecalledTeopandwewenttoTeopasino,toanotherplace,and
33:00 thisReadwasthereandhewouldn’tlightbigfiresandhehadlittlefiresthereandweweresittingthereandthey’resupposedtobegoingatnineo’clock.Teno’clocknothingwashappening.Eleveno’clocknothingwashappeningandIwaswalkingupanddownthebeachwithafellacalledBennyWhite,andBennysaid,“Buggerthis,”andhewentovertothefires.Hegave‘emakickandputmorestuffon‘emandupcomethesubmarine.Itjustcouldn’tsee.Itwassittingoutinthebay.So
33:30 wegoton,wentout,thenewblokescomeinandwetookthecanoesoutagainandgotontheplane,onthesubandtherottenbuggers,itwasverysadreallybecauseournatives,youknow,weallhadanativegenerallyhelpyou.He’dcarryyourstuffandthat,andthisoneofminewasblokeaminewascrying
34:00 causeweweregoingandnowondertheyturned.Theysaid,“Whyareyougoing?”youknow,“Isit,isthewarlost?”andwetriedtotell‘em,“Well,we’llbeback,”buthegavemeabeautifulwalkingstickcarvedinebonyandIstuckitinmepackandwegotontheboatonthejointandpassedyourpacksdownThey’regoneindownandthenscrambleddownyourself.BythetimeIgottothebottom,thestickwasgoneandIsearchedthatbloodysubmarinefromoneendtothe
34:30 other,couldn’tfindit,butitwasanexperienceonitsownthesubmarine,Icantellyou.Wegotandweweresittingthereyouknow,“Aren’ttheyevergonnamove?”Itwasaboutoneo’clockinthemorningandwe’dbeenonsincemidnight.Isaid,“Whenarewegettinggoing?”Hesaid,“We’vebeengoingforanhour.”Youcouldn’ttellhowitmoves,youknow,underneathandso
35:00 you’dgotothetoiletandtherewas17differentactionsyouhadtodowhenyouwenttothetoilet.
It’salright.Keepgoing.
Youhadtoyouknowyouturnedthiswheelandpushedthatleverandstampedonthatpedalandpulledthisandifyoudidn’tdoeverythingrightit’dblowbackuponyou,see,andwedidn’tcare.Weusedtogoandgetasailorandsay,“Comeandworkthisbloodything,”youknow,
35:30 butwehadoldFatherSullivan,averystraight-lacedoldpriest.Hewouldn’ttellanyoneyouknowandhe’dcomeoutcoveredinit.He’stryingtodoithimselfbutsowegotonasubanditwasabigcrackinitandIsaidtooneofthesailors,“Whathappenedhere?”Hesaid,“Ohwegothitwithadepthchargeonthewayup.”Isaid,“God,Ihopeit’snot,”itwas,youknowitwas,“Whoooo,”agreatbigcrack
36:00 andsotheyandweyouusedtogodownandtherewasaplacecalledtheslot,whichwasn’tverydeep,andwehadtogodownthroughthatindaylightbutwegotthroughthereandthatnextnightwetransferredfromthesubmarinetoasubchaserandwepulledupyouknowinthemiddleofthisdarknightinanoceanandthissubmarinechaser,they’rewoodenboats,
36:30 andIhadoneathesailorssaying,“Comeon.Hurryup,”hesaid,“we’regettingsomethingontheradarandwedon’tknowwhatitis.”Jesus.Wemadeaswiftchange.SowegotonthissubchaserandGoditwaslikegettingonaracingcar.Whenitgotgoing,itwasflyingalongandtheygaveusBullDurham’stobaccoandoh,theylookedafterus.Hadagoodfeed.Itwaswastedon,youknow,weweregettingsickasfastaswewereeating‘causewehadn’teatenforacoupleofyears.
37:00 Thenwewentdownabitfurther,gotnearGuadalcanal,andtheytransferredusfromthesubchasertoalandingbargethenontothegroundandwethought,“Ohwell.Nearlyout.”Youknow,thisisthefrontlinewiththeYanksandthefirstthingtheydidwastheygaveusthecottonsheets,youknowastretcher
andsheetsandtookusupandwehadnicetents
37:30 andtheysaid,“Wellit’schowtimenowfellas.”Wewentdownandtheyhadicecreamandabottleabeer,andthisisallthefrontlineyouknow,andtheywereandwedidn’tgivethemesstentyou’regoin’alongandIgottotheendofthelineandIhadsausagesandpotatoesandonionsandicecreamandjellyandpearsallintheoneplate.They’djustmixitallup,“Ohitallgoesdowntheoneway.”
38:00 Soweweretherefor,andourboss,well,wegotalotofattentionbecausehewasalieutenantwithtwopipsandtheythoughthewasatwo-stargeneralandhe,weusedtoget,theyhadpicturesonthefrontlineeverynight.We’dgotothepicturesandthetwostargeneralwouldgetusfrontlineseatsandwegotupthenextmorning.Weheard“bang”andthere’sagunupinthemountainsanditfiresaroundrightintothemiddleoftheHendersonAirfield
38:30 andtheyjustrushedoutandtheyfilledtheholeupandtheywentandnextdaythesamethingagain.Wesaid,“What’sgoingon?”Theysaid,“Ohthere’sagunupinthehillsthere.”Wesaid,“Whydon’tyougethim?”“Oh,”theysaid,“he’snotdoingmuchdamage.Wejustfillitin,”andthatwentonfor,IknowIheardinthefinishthatasectionofNewZealanderswhoweretheretheywentupandrooted‘emoutinnotimebuttheYankswerequitehappytolethimkeepblowing
39:00 thebloodydromeup,andwewere,Ifinishedupinhospitalthere.Ihadbadlegs.IthinkIgothitwithastingingnettleorapoisonnettleonthewaydownandmyheelallgotulceratedandIwentthereandIwashavingagreatoldbludgeinthehospitalandoldJackMackiesaid,“Comeon.Hurryuporyou’llmisstheplanetoAustralia.”So,“God.”Igot
39:30 outtahospital.Wegotontoaplane.WeflewtoNewCaledoniaandthatwasaturn.Wegothalf,theairportwashalfwayabout40kmsoutofthetownandwewasinatiptrucksomehoworother.AllstandinginthebackofthatandwegotnearthetownandtheMPs[MilitaryPolice]pulledusup,pulledtheirgunsonusandtoldustogetoutandreckonedwewerealotoffifthcolumn
40:00 spiesorsomething.Anyway,ourblokesjumpedoutandprotestedandtheysaid,“Ohwell,”andtheysentusdowntowhattheycallthe‘shipwrecksurvivors’camp’andthat’sacampwheretheblokegetsshipwreckedandtheyput‘eminthiscamptilltheygetanothershipandtheycan’tgetout,see,andwelandedinthere.Wesaid,“No,”theblokesaid,“Don’tgetanyleaveoutofhere.”Wewantedtogoandhavealookaroundthetownbut
40:30 wehadafellawithuscalledLouisJohnson.He’sFrenchandhecamefromNewCaledoniaandhismotherandfatherownedfarmsupinthehills.TheyownedtheFordAgency.Theyownedthegeneralstoreandsoourlieutsaid,“Look,Louishasbeen,”youknow,“he’sbeenmissingfor18months.Hispeopledon’tevenknowthathe’salive,”hesaid,“He’shere.”“Ohalright.Hecango
41:00 homebuthe’sgottabebackhereatnineo’clockinthemorning.”SoawayLouiswent.Hecomebackatnineo’clockinthemorningalright.Hehadhisunclewithhim,whowastheBritishconsulandhegotstuckinto‘em.Thenextminutetheygaveusaleavepasseach,“Ohjustcomeandgoasyoulike,”andwedid.
Tape8
00:31 Pickingupwhereweleftoff,youwereintheshipwreckcamp?
Yeah.WellLouieturnedupwiththeBritishConsulandthatsettledallourproblems.WespentabitatimearoundNewCaledonia.Louienaturallystayedtherewithhispeopleandhetookusaroundthetown.ItwastheharbourwasfullofAmericannavyshipsandm(UNCLEAR)NewZealandblokesand
01:00 wehadflownfromGuadalcanaltoNewCaledoniainaDC3[DouglasDC3transportaircraft]anditwasanoldthing.Wegotinandtheyjusthadbucketseatsdowneachsideandtheseatswereallfullofwater.Itwasleaking,see.Anyhowthatwasalright.Wegotthereandwewentouttotheairporttomakeourfinaltriphomeanditwasthesameplane,thesamecrew,
01:30 andsomeonesaidto‘em,“Ibetyou’reabitsurprisedtobegoingtoAustralia.”Hesaid,“Weareinthis.”Soitwasn’ttoo…butwegotback.Now,it’dbeintoMayIsuppose,earlyMay,causeIandwelandedatIpswich.WewenttoBrisbaneandtheywouldonlypayus20dollars,20poundeach.Theysaid,“You’re,”youknow,“you’llget
02:00 robbedorsomething.”Sotheyonlypaidus20poundeachandfromtherewesplitupso,youknow,Imean,wehadinoursection,wehadQueenslanders,NewSouthWales,Victoriaandtwo,no,oneWesternAustralianinoursectionandsotheyallwenteverywhichway.Fromthenon,someof‘emIneversawagain.
02:30 TheysplitusupandtheVictorianswe,IsupposeforthefirstweekweallmetdownatthePortPhillippuborwehad,youknow,thenIgotmarried.BennyWhitegotmarriedontheFriday,IgotmarriedontheSaturdayandtheyallwenthome.ImeanHaywoodandIneversaw,ohwell,I
03:00 gotIfinishedup,theygaveussevenweeks’leave,whichyouknowpeopledidn’tbelieve,butwehadthat.Weusedthatupandwewentback.WemetatBrisbaneShowgrounds,someof‘em.Someof‘emwerestillinhospital.Alotwenttohospital.Someneverturnedupfromanywhereatall.Ouroldengineerbloke,BillDalby,
03:30 helivedatKyogle,whichwasacoupleofhoursbytrainIsuppose.SohetookallofusthathadturnedoutdownforaweekendatKyogle.ThentheysentustoCanungraandwithinthreeweekswewereeitherinaconvalescentcamporhospital,howitnearlykilledus.IgotmadeBclass-
04:00 notfitfortropicalserviceanymore.Alotof‘emwenttoaplacecalledTallebudgeranearBeen-,ohnotnearBeenleigh,somewherenearthere,andjoinedthecoastwatchers,whichisMSpecial[Unit].Iwasinthe-thatwasinAugust-IwasintheconvalescentcamptillJanuaryandIwasstillgettingnobetter,soIgottransferredtoa
04:30 bakeryinBrisbane,FirstAustralianBakeryIthink,andwewereintheValleyinBrisbanethereforfiveorsixmonthsIsupposeprobablyandthenIgottransferredtoVictoria.
CanIaskyou,howdidyoufinditwhenyoufirstcamehome?Whatwasyourreaction
Couldn’t…
tobeinghome?
Couldn’tstandtobeawayfrommematesandLucettewilltellyouittookawhile.Wewentonourhoneymoonwithsomeofmemates.
05:00 WenttohisplaceatHaywood.Itjust,weweresocloseanditstayedtilltheydiedyouknow.Imean,I’mtheonlyoneinMelbournenowthatmarches,evenofthewholecompany,outofthewhole300there’snoneleft,butmymatesinthesection,itwasjustsopainfulnottobewith‘emreally.
05:30 Didyoufinditdifficulttoadjusttocivilianlife?
Ohyeah.Yeah.ImeanIwasstilljumpingoutofbedofanightyouknow.Jumpingallovertheplace,yeah.Icouldn’tsettledown,butthenIhad,thatwasIwentbackinsayJuly‘43anditwas
06:00 September,October‘45beforeyouknow,Ihadabouttwoyearshomeinnormalcircumstances.Didsettledownalotbutatthestart,youjustcouldn’tsettledownwithoutseein’thosefamiliarfacesaboutyouknow.You’dbetheysortagrewwithyaand…
Soyouthinkitwasseparationfromyourmatesmorethananything
Yeah.
06:30 Thatyoufoundit…?
Yeah,that’swhatIfound.Ididn’tmissthelifestyle,notonebit,andImeanyouknowthestarvationandthatsortofthing,butwe’d,there’sstillthree,fourofusleftatthejointyouknowandit’swekeepintouchandhavewelltheyhaven’thadareunionforacoupleayearsnow.They’regettin’toooldbutwestillwrite
07:00 andwe,anditstartedwhenwewhentheFirstWarfinished,thatwastheseparation.Imeanyouneverkeptintouchthenbecauseyouweremarried.Youhadayoungfamilyandit’s,itsortofdidn’tget,butthencome1984,yourfamily’sgone,andwestartedhavingreunionsagainandIthinkthefirstonewehad
07:30 about10ofthesectionthereandsincethenit’sjustdroppeddownandnowthere’sonlyfourofusandoneofthem’snottoogood,so.
Doyoutalkaboutthewar?Whenyougettogetherdoyoustill
Oh.
talkaboutthewar?
notthetoughtimes.Youtalkaboutthefunnytimesyouknowandseealotof‘emthatwentback,theyhadatoughtimeagain.Imeansomeofthemwentback
08:00 tobutno,wetalkjustfunnytimesnowwhenyougetyouknowandtheyarefunny.Alotofmateswhowerethegreatestmatesyoucouldeverhave,butofthewholecompanythere’sonlyaboutnot20leftouttathewhole300orso,andthatit’s…
Didyou…?
AndwhenIwrotethisbookitjustaboutbrokemyheart.ImeanIgotletters
08:30 backfromasisterorawifeorsomething.We,andI,acoupleaweeksago,peoplerangmeup.Ohthey’dgotholdofthebookontheInternetand,“Myunclewasinthe,”youknow,“wedon’tknowwhathappenedtohim,”andIaskedhisnameandasithappened,hewasagoodfriendamine.Oh,well,agoodfriend,weusedtodrinkwithhimeverynight.Hewasintheofficersand
09:00 hewentdownwiththemontheVideo[MontevideoMaru].Well,60yearslatertheyknowhe’sdead,buttheydon’tknowhoworwhy.Theythoughthewasshotonthebeach.Well,hewasoneoftheonesontheVideoMaruandthat’shappened,wellthebookcomeoutin1998and,notonlythat,I’vehadhalfthe[UnitedStates]MarineCorpsringingmeup,ahnotringing,writingtomebecause
09:30 somehowwhenIwaswritingthebookIgotintouchwithamarinecaptain,aYankeemarinelike,andhewaswritingabookandhehadthingsallballsed[messed]upandIhelpedhimalotandthenhe…
Whenyousay,“allballsedup,”what,hewasupsetor…?
Hey?
Whatdoyoumeanhehadthings‘allballsedup’?
Ohwell,hedidn’tknowmuchaboutus,youknow,andyethewastryingtowriteinhisbookaboutusandso
10:00 hegotintouchwithpeoplethatdidn’tknowandtheytoldhim.Sohe’swrittenabook,buthealsojoinedmeupintheirGuadalcanalVeteransAssociation,youknow,andtheyhaveamagazineandsooneof‘emwaswritingaboutinthenavyhewasandwiththemarinehewasanavyblokeandhewastalkingaboutgoingoutandsinking12
10:30 shipsandIthoughtandIlookedupthedateanditwasthe12shipsthatweseengoingdownthatwasreportedandIwrotetothemagazineandintroducedmyselfandtoldhimaboutitandyou,oh,thelettersI’vegotinisfunny.Onenavyblokewroteandhesaid,“Yousavedmylife.”I’vegotthebookthere,hesentmeabookaboutour(UNCLEAR),whichisalllieswrittenbysomeoneelse.Hesaid
11:00 theywereunloadingmarinesatNewGeorgia,hesaid,“Andallofasuddenwegottheordertopullouttosea,”hesaid,“andthen60Japplanesturnedup.”Hesaid,“AndI’vespent60yearswonderinghowthehelltheyknewtheywerecoming.”Hesaid,“Iknownow,”andit’sbeengoodthatway.I’vegota…
Haveyoutalkedaboutthewarwithyourfamily?
No,notreally.No.
Didtheyask?
No.
11:30 No,theyknowIwas,youknow,knockedaboutabitandknew,theyknewallmematesandthat,butno.Well,mysonwasinVietnam[War].Henevertalkedaboutittomeeither.Hejust,it’sjustoneofthosethings.Hewentawayandcomebackachangedman,youknow.Hewantedtogoandwhenhecomebackhewishedhehadn’tagone,butno,I’ve,until,youknow,theyreadthebookandtheysaid,“Ididn’tknowthat,”youknow,
12:00 butyoudon’t.Ithinkyouwouldfindthatuniversally,wouldn’tyou?Mostpeopledon’ttalkaboutit.
Mostofthem,yeah.
Yeah.Imean,whenI’mtalking,I’vegotamarineblokeandI’msurehetalkstohisfamilyallthetime.Allhetalksaboutisandhewritesmeletters,I’llgetonetodayandonetomorrow,see,wheneverhefeelslikeit.AllhetalksaboutisChloe[iconicnudepaintinghangingintheupstairsbar]andYoungandJackson’s[hotelinMelbourne]andI
12:30 wenttoYoungandJackson’sandtalkedtothemanageryouknow,andhegavemeahatandaphotoofChloeandIsentittothisbloke,butwesavedthem,many,manylivesandmany,manyplanes.Theylostsomeandtheylostsomelivesbut…
DidChloemeanmuchtoyou?
Well,it’sanicon.Imean
13:00 AnzacDaywealwayshaveareunion.WegototheEdenontheParkand…
Sorry,I’llpauseforamoment.
Alright,we’rerollingagain.
Andweusedtoalwaysgohaveabeer.
DidyougoandseeChloebeforethewar?
No,onthewayback.
Okay.
AfterLucettewouldgotothereunionandwe’dtakeherinandintroducehertoChloe,thentakeherouttodinner,buyherapieatFlindersStreetStation,butwealwaysusedtogobutthelastcouple
13:30 ayears,wellit’sstartingtofall.Wemarch,andasIsay,there’splentyofothercommandosmarchingbutI’mtheonlyNumber1CompanyblokethatmarchesandIsupposeitdoesmeansomethingtous.Iknowitmeansthatit’saniconbutthere’snodoubtaboutit.TheseYanks,theyknowit.They’vewrittenabookcalledMelbourne’sMarines,youknow,andit’sonsaletheytellme,but
14:00 alotof‘emwouldn’thavecomedownhome,Imean,youneverknowwiththemarinesbecauselike,becausewecomehomeandwewerearoundtownyouknowandwehadour,nooneknewwherewecomefrombutwewereplayin’upafairbitandIsawaYanktherewitha‘Number1Marines’and‘Number1Guadalcanal’andhewasinthe
14:30 pub.Sowegottalkingtohim,“Oh,”Isaid,“we,youknow,we’vejustleftGuadalcanal.Whenwereyouthere?”“Oh,”hesaid,“I’mgoing.”Hehadn’tevenbeenthereandhewaswearingthings,youknow.So,buttheywere,therewasGeneralPatch,Nimitz,Gormley,oh,awholeheapoftheirheadmen,real,theythankedusandsentus
15:00 congratulationsandwhenweleftbutI,you’retalkingaboutsupplies.Imusttellyouonefinalstory.Whentheystoppingustellingus,starteddroppingsuppliesandweusedtogetboots.Thefirstlotaboots,therewashundredsofthem,thebiggestwasnineandItook10,soIhadnoboots.Theydroppedshirtsandsuppliesandthatandtobacco
15:30 andeverymangottwoouncesoftobaccopermonth,whichyouknowwasnotmuch.Anyhow,whenwegothomewewerethe,like,well,Imean,theonlylotthathadbeensuppliedbyairatthattime,butpartoftheveryfewthathadbeenandtheywerewonderinghowitwasandtheheadoftheservicecorpsandgeneralthis-and-that,theytookusinandtheystartedquestioningusaboutthesuppliesand,“Whatdidyouthinkof
16:00 ‘em?”WellweusedtogetsomeYankeething,whattheycallafour-be-four.It’sakerosenetinandit’dhaveeverythinginit.Cigarettes,abooktoread,youknow,but,andIthought,“Ohwell,bugger‘em.”SoIsaidtohim,“Well,weappreciatedthetobacco.”Isaid,“Itwas,”youknow,Isaid,“buttwoouncesamonth’sabitlight,”andhelookedatme.Hesaid,“We’vebeensendingapoundperman
16:30 permontheversince,”andsomerottenbuggerbackinthestoresknewthisandhereligiouslyleftustwoounceseach,nevertookthelot,andkept,youknow,14ounces26timeseverymonth.Hemustamadeafortunewiththattobaccocauseyoucouldn’tbuyit.Everymonth,andIlaughedwhenhesaid,“Weweresendingyouapoundamonth.”Idon’tknowwhethertheyevercaughthim.
Howlongafterthewardidyou
17:00 smokefor?
Tillaboutfiveyearago.Yeah.IwasneveraheavysmokerthoughwhenIcomeback,IfinishedupIsupposethelast10yearsyouknow,andIsmokedaboutthreeadayandthenIsuddenlythought,“Well,thisiscrazy,”youknow.AlthoughIstillgettheurge.I’dlikeacigarettebut…
Didyousmokebeforethewar?
Yes.Yes.Notmuch.Notmuchand
17:30 Ididn’tdrinkbeforethewareithermuch,butIstillhavea,youknowwhatImean,but…
Didyoudrinkalotafterthewar?
Foralongwhile,yes.Yes.Particularlyeveninthelastcoupleayearsinthearmy,youknow,wewerealwaysinBrisbane.IwasatMurchisonEast.IwasatSeymour.NowIdrankafairbitthenbut
18:00 I,youknow,it,ifwegototheEdenontheParknowforareunionandwemarchandwe’refinishedanddownatthereunionat11o’clockinthemorning,andweusedtohaveafreeandwestayfrom11tillthreeandthebeerisallsupplied.Well,youknow,theysay,“Youcandrinkasmuchasyoulike.”There’sbottlesawineandthere’sthree
18:30 course[meals].Well,iftheydidthat20yearago,we’dhavedranktheplaceoutofhouseandhome,butnowyouleaveandthere’s,youknow,halfthewine’sstillonthetablenottouchedandwe’reluckytodrinkthreeglassesofbeeradaynowandthere’dbe200blokesinthatroomandtherewouldn’tbeasmokeramong‘em.Theremightbeoneortwobuttheydon’tsmokein,it’sjustamazing.
Yeahwehaven’tstruckanyveteranssofarthatsmokestill.
Theydon’t,
19:00 theydon’tsmoke.Youhaven’tstruckany,yeah.
No.
No,andImeanwewereencouragedtosmoke.Theyusedtodropthisfour-by-four.Ithadcigarettesinitandtheydroppedus,youknow,the,wellapoundatobaccoamonthwouldatakensomesmoking,butIfeelthatitwasnecessaryreally.Imean,itusedtosteadyusdownandcalmusdown,there’snodoubtaboutthat,butitjustitdidn’tdousany
19:30 othergoodbutandthentheyusedtodropthis,they’ddroptwobottlesawhiskeyandtwobottlesofrumandtwobottlesofginortwo,yeah,you’dhaveoneofthoseandyou’dbehalfsilly.Medicinalpurposes,theyreckoneditwasfor,but…
Doyoulookbackonthosetimesnow?Doyouthinkthey’rethestrongest
20:00 memoriesthatyouhave?
Yes,Ithinkso.Idon’tregretanyof‘emeitheryouknow.Imeanthey’reallgoodmemoriesasfarasnotenjoyable,allof‘em,butit’sallpositivememoriestome.Iwasjustthinkingyou’retalkingaboutthesuppliesbecausetheyusedtoalsosupplyuswithapoundasugaramontheachandwehad,everyonewouldgettheirtinandfillitbutyouneverusedthat.Youusedthat
20:30 forgambling.WeplayedcardsofanightandInevereverhadanysugar.Somebuggerusedtowineveryweekyousee,but…
Arethereothermemoriesthatdisturbyou?
Ohwhathappenedtomymatesonthatboat,Ican’timaginewhatitwaslike,youknow,trappeddown,lockeddownandontopofthat,it’snotlikethecommandofthe2/29thBattalion,whoI
21:00 hadsomeveryclosefriendsandtheygotcaughtinMalayaandtheygotchoppedtopiecesyouknow,andtheonesthatweren’tkilledwerekilledontheBurmarailway.Thatupsetsme.IwasjustsayingtoLucettelastnight,itmustbeyoublokescoming,youknow.IdreamtaboutthreeofmyBougainvillematesjust,andthathappensforallthetime,
21:30 forI’malwaysgettin’chased.Ithasn’tbeensobadlatelybutIusedtobegettingdifferentlocationsandI’dalwayslookupandthere’dalwaysbeateamofJapsaftermeandtheynevercaughtme,butohGoditusedto,youknow,LucettewilltellyouInearlyjumpouttabedwithjumpingandhopping.
Wellyoumentionedandyourdescriptionofitwasbeingthrown
22:00 tothewolvesandreallyyouwerecutoff,youwerealonemostofthetimefendingforyourselves.
Yeah.
Wasthatisthatyourstrongestfeelingofbeingontherunandbeing
Look.
cutloose?
Youknow,Iwas20-21andsoyoungandsillyIdidn’treallyworryaboutituntilIgothome.Ican’trememberever,althoughIgotaletterfrommematetheotherdayandhe’ssaying,“Icanremembersitting
22:30 onthepieratNumaNumaandlookingtoAustraliaandwondering,‘WillIevergetthere?’.”WellIcan’tremembereverhavingdoubtthatI’dgethomeandImeanIshouldhavehad,becauseitwasalmostimpossibletoimagineusstayingthere,neverlostaman.Weshouldhavefiredafewshotsinangerbutnottoomanybecausewewereorderedtonotmakecontact,
23:00 becausethey’dheardaboutifwestartedmakinganuisanceofourself,we’dhavebeen,theseblokesthatrelievedus,theyonlylastedthreemonths.Halfofthemgotbeheadedandthat,butweweretoldthejobweweredoingwastooimportantto,youknow,sortofputitatriskbywell,wedidgolookingfortroubleforawhilebutitwasjustnotworthit.Imeantherewas
23:30 nowaywecoulddoanydamagetothemwithoutgettingalotofdamageourselfanditwouldhavespoiltthewholethingbecausewejustkeptouttatheirway.Acoupleatimesthey,youknow,iftheychaseduswejustslipupthecoupleofthousandfeetandtheywouldn’tcomeyouknow.Iftheyhadhavecome,wewereready,therewasnodoubtaboutthat,but…
Sodoyoufeelthatthetraining
24:00 yougotinAustraliawasadequate?
Wellno,becausetheytrainedustogotoEuropetodohit,runhard,youknow,hardtacticsallthetime,althoughFreddieSpencer-Chapmansaid,“Youmightbeputonyourown,havingtolivealoneonanislandsomewhere,”butourtrainingwasallassault.Youknow,like,Imean,whattheyintendedusforwastheDieppe
24:30 Raidandwewereasacompanyyoucouldgoinandyouhadeverything.Youcouldcausealotofdamageandprobablygetoutrelativelylightly,butinsteadofthattheysplitusupallovertheSouthPacificandwewerejustlostsoulsreally.Itwas-theydidn’tcare.Andthey,youknow,whenwedidmakecontacttheysaid,“Well,
25:00 stopthereanddoasmuchdamageasyoucan.”Well,there’snotmuchdamagewecoulddowith26blokesagainst50,000.Sowestoppedtherebutwe,youknow,andI’mgladwedidstoptherebecauseit
wasasignificantpartofthatwar.WellI’venodoubtweshortenedthatwarupthereandsavedthesemarinesbecauseiftheseplanes,
25:30 they’dlike,there’dbe100,150planesgoingdownatatime.Ifthey’dagotoverthemarines,andtheywerereallystrugglingeventhentohold(UNCLEAR)footbecausetheJapwasafanatic,youknow.Imeanthere’snodoubtaboutthat,hewasagoodsoldier,abrutalsoldier,andtheygave‘embuggeryoninGuadalcanal.TheYanksjustmanagedtoholdonlongenoughandinthefinish,ussupplying
26:00 theadvicethatreinforcementswerecomingandthenbeingabletochopitoff,that’swhatfinishedtheJap.Hecouldn’tgetanyreinforcementsorsupplies,andinthefinishwesawthemcomingbacktoGuadalcanalyouknow.Theyhadnoweapons.Theyhadnoyouknowwecouldhavegoneinandslaughteredhundredsof‘embecausetheyhadnodefenceandtheywerestarvingandtheystayed
26:30 wellafterweleft,youknow,anditwasstillalotoffightingdoneonBougainvillewiththeAustralianArmy.
Well,whatwasyouropinionoftheJapanesesoldiers?Asyouwerefightingthemfromthebeginning,youmaynothaveheardaboutthe…
Atrocities?
The,yeah,theprisoner-of-warcamps.
No.
Butthenlateryouwouldhaveheardsomerumoursandstories.
Ah.
Didyouropinionchange?
No,
27:00 wedidn’tgetanynewsatallexcept,Imean,Igotnewsthatthe2/29thBattalionhadbeendecimated.Somewerekilled,someofyourmates,buttherewasnoreportsofwhatwenton.Imean,wedidn’tevenknowourownmenwerePOWsbutthesoldiers,youknow,theywerebrutal,therewasnodoubtwe,youknow,wesaw
27:30 theresultsof‘embeingthereandyetwe’veseenthemissionariestoldusaboutyoungboyssittingonthebeachcrying,wanting’togohome.
Didyourespectthemasfighters?
Ohyeah.Yeah.Youhadto.Imeantheynevergaveup.
Sandy,
28:00 I’dliketoaskyouafewquestionsaboutyourcombatexperienceswiththeJapanese.
Yep.
You’vetoldusafewstoriesofwhattookplacebutI’dliketoaskyouaboutactualencounters.LikeoneononeencounterswiththeJapanesesoldiersinbattle.
Neverhadit.
Youneverhadit?
Neverhadit.No,that’swhatIcan’tunderstand,thattheydidn’tcomeandgetusbecause
28:30 theyknewourname,theyknewwherewewere.TheysentusinvitationtocomeforChristmasdinnerbuttheywouldn’tcomeintothehillsandgetus.Wewerejustforbiddentogoandmakecontactwiththemthatway.We,youknow,wewentoutafewtimesonfightingpatrolsanddidn’tmakecontactandinthelatterpartwewereabsolutelytoldtokeepouttatheway,but
29:00 ifthey’dawantedtofindus,theyknewwherewewere,butno,weneverhadaone-on-onebutyeahtheyweregoodsoldiers,there’snodoubtaboutthat.Imean…
Canyoutellusifyou’veencounteredanyexamplesofcowardice?
Onourpart?
Inyourservice?
Ourpart?
Yes.
Well,
29:30 I’vegotmedoubtsaboutourmedicalsergeantthatdiagnosedhimself,whentheyfirstattackedusI
happenedtobewithhimandhewasamenaceyouknow.Imeantheystarteddroppingbombsall‘roundusandIstartedgettingnervousandIlit,wantedtolightacigarette,youknowandhecarriedon,“They’llseethecigarette.”Itwasinbroaddaylight,
30:00 youknow,andinahole,andIthrewmepackoutandonthepackwasawhitemosquitonet.Ohandheperformedthere.Hesaidthey’dseethat,“They’llcomeandgetusagain,”andsohewasagoodmedicalmanbutIthinkwewerewellridofhimreally.HewasacowardIthinkandtomakethingsworse,wegothome,
30:30 hewasalieutenantinstructinginjunglewarfare.He’dneverseenany,butno,asfarasmymateswent,theyweregreat.They,youknow,youneverhadaworryiftheywereatyourback.Theywerealljustordinary,nothingspecialabout‘em,andourofficerwasthegreatestofofficersbuthewasan
31:00 electrician,apprentice,whenhejoinedthearmy.Therewasafewfarmers.
Sandy,whataboutthetermLMF,‘lackofmoralfibre’,haveyouheardofthatterm?
No.Idon’tknowwhatyoumean.
You’veneverheardofit?
No.No.Lackofmoralfibre?No.No,theyusedtosayhehadayellowstreakornoguts,butI’veheardofthatone.That’sa
31:30 modernterm,isn’tit?
WellapparentlyalotofpeopleinWorldWarIIusedtouseit,sotheservicemen…
Hey?
someservicemenusedtousethatterm.
Ahno,thattheythatwasit,ayellowstreakorgutlessor…
Soyellowstreak?
Yeah.Uptheback.Thatwasasmuchanyone,butohno,wellI’veheardofoneblokeweknewbut
32:00 hewasfrightened,buthewasn’tacowardifyoucanunderstandwhatImean.Hejustwasterrifiedwhentheystarteddroppingbombsanditwasn’thisfault.
Doyouthinkeveryonewasterrified?
Hey?
Doyouthinkeveryonewasterrified?
Ohwellyeah,Ithinkiftheyweren’tfrightenedthey’retellinglies,becauseIwas,everyonewasfrightenedbutsomeonecould,youknow,youcouldcontrolitoryoudon’t
32:30 ignoreit,butImetblokesthathadnofearandtheywereamenacebecauseyouknowthey’dgoanywhere,anything.Withacoupleofthem,youknowtheywantedtowintheVictoriaCrossandtheytookblokesintosituationsinothercompaniesthatwereverydangerousandunnecessary.Sotheywereabitofamenacebut
33:00 Idon’tknowofanycowards.I’vetalkedtoyoutalkedtoWorleyBaldwin.WellhisOC,BernieCallum,andIspoketohim,youknow,andhesaidhe’dseenmanycasesdeservingofaVictoriaCrossbutinthecommandostherewasneveranyoneofhighofficethat
33:30 couldrecommendyouforthat.SothebesttheycouldeverdowasaDCM[DistinguishedConductMedal]but…
Doyouknowofanyexamplesofpeoplegoingtroppo[crazy]?
I’mtryingtothink.Noneofourblokeswent,oh,except,youknow,Imean,wewereabitqueerandthecoastwatchersaidwewerealltroppo,butweweren’t.Ahno,Ican’t,not
34:00 anyoneIcomeincontactwith.Ourblokesallcamehome,theyweresick.Theywerewearybuttheyhadtheirsensesabout‘em.I’mjusttryingtothinkofanyoneinthecompany.Imeanwehadoneblokeblewhishandoffcausehejumpedinaholewithadetonatorinhishandandafewmeningitisandthingslikethatbutno,nonewith
34:30 ‘battlestrain’,asyouwouldsay.
Whatabouthaveyouseeanyactsofdesertion?
Well,getbacktoourmedicalsergeantagain.Thatwasonebutnotinthefaceoftheenemy.No,I’vehearditasItellyouthislittleblokethatwasterrifiedbuthewasinanothersection
35:00 butheused,theywerebombedeveryday,andheusedtogetinacanoeearlyandgoouttoadesertedislandandstoptherealldayandtheythoughtnomoreofhim.Hewasoutoftheroadbutno,ourblokeswereprettystaunch.Youknowiftherewasanydangertheyweretherewithyou.They’dneverleaveyoubutasIsaid,youknowwhenIwaslostinthe
35:30 middleofthenighttheycomeoutandfoundmebuttheycouldhaveeasilysaid,“Ohwell,buggerhim.Leavehimtheretillthemorning”,causeIwouldabeenstillthere.YouknowwehadblokesasIwastellin’you,whentheywereattackingourairfieldwehadblokesstandinguptherewhentherewasbulletsallflyin’aroundandlightingthefusestoblowtheplaceup.
36:00 Theyneverflinched.
Whataboutactsofheroism?
Well…
Youmusthaveseenmanyofthem.
Wewereneverreallyinapositiontoseetherecausewedidn’tfronttheenemyandImean,ifyouknowit’swhenthey’redroppingbombsandthat,well,there’snot,youknow,youcan’tdomuchaboutit.There’s
36:30 plentyofblokeswe,youknowIremembermyself,therewasanattack.They’dattackedusafewtimesbeforethebigoneandtherewasthisplanecomingatme,youknow,andIwasfiringtheBrengunandafterawhilehewentawayandIthought,theytaughtustochangethebarrelsoftheBrengunwhenitwashot.SoIstartedtochangethebarrelandhecomebackandI,God,Icouldn’tget
37:00 theotheronein.Nousebein’ahero.Icouldn’t,youknow,mehandswouldn’tcoordinatewithmebraintogetthenewbarrelbackontostartfiringagainbutIthinkI’ddoitallagain.
Youwould?
Yeah,IthinkIwould,especiallywiththematesIhad.Theywere,
37:30 thebosswehad,theofficer,hewasfantastic.Wehadacoupleofcorporals.Onewasgoodandtheotheronewasgood,toogood,and…
CanIaskyouifthewarwasthebestperiodofyourlife?
Afterthewar?
No,duringthewarasfarasexperiencewasconcerned
Oh
Justlifeexperience?
Well,Ithinkasfarasalearningcurveit’dhavetobeonBougainville.Imean,youknowI’vehadplentyofgoodtimes
38:00 inthe(UNCLEAR)butthat’sthatdoesn’tcount,butasfarassatisfaction,yeah,Iwasverysatisfiedwithouroccupationthereandtheresultswegot.Itwas,youknow,Imeanitwaswellworthwhilewhenyoucansitupthereandseetheresultsofwhatyou’redoing,thatit’sdoingsomegood,youknow.Youcansee,
38:30 wecouldsee150planesgodown,sixcomeback.Sothatgivesyoualotofsatisfaction,andweusedtolike,ofanight,whenwewouldgetoursuppliesdropped,wewereupinthehills,wecouldlookdownovertheBukaPassageandseethebombersbombingBukaPassageandthatwasgreatandtheninatthefinishitgotthatwaythat
39:00 theFortresseswerecomingupinthedaytimeandwecouldwatchitandthatwassatisfying.
Unfortunatelywe’rerunningoutoftime.
Yeah.
Isthereanythingelsethatyou’dliketosaythatyou’venevertoldanyoneelsefortherecord,forthehistoricalrecord?
Idon’tthinkso.IthinkI’vecoveredit,prettywellallthatIwouldliketosayexceptthat,asIsaid,itwas,Ifeltitwasanhonourtobeabletobethere
39:30 andtakeapartinthatandhavesuchgreatmatesandstillhave‘em.Well,I’vegotmemoriesofmostof‘emnowandI’dliketothankyoublokesforcomingdownandtakingit.
That’sokay.
It’sbeenmyfear,that’swhyIwrotethebook,thatourcompanywasdisappearingwithoutanytraceatall.Therewasnorecordofit.
40:00 Imean,ifyougototherecords,theysay,“Ohwe’vegotnorecordsoftheNumber1Company,”anditwas,youknow,itwasafearaminethatwe’dalldisappear,soIwrotethebookandthat’sfairenoughandnowyoufellashaveputthatinthearchivesandthat’sgreat,reallygreat.
Noworries.Well,thankyouverymuchanditwasagreatpleasuretointerviewyou.
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