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GLOBALFEMINISMS
COMPARATIVECASESTUDIESOFWOMEN’SACTIVISMANDSCHOLARSHIP
SITE:NIGERIA
TranscriptofDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi
Interviewer:RonkeOlawale
Location:Lagos,NigeriaDate:November4th,2019
UniversityofMichigan
InstituteforResearchonWomenandGender1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109-1290
Tel:(734)764-9537
E-mail:[email protected]:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem
©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2017
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Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-AfolabistudiedlawattheObafemiAwolowoUniversity,IleIfe.ShereceivedanLLMfromtheNotreDameSchoolofLawintheUSandaPhDfromtheSchoolofOrientalandAfricanStudies(SOAS)at
theUniversityofLondonwhereshespecialized inwomen’s peace and
security studies. In 2002 she established the Women
AdvocatesResearch and Documentation Center (WARDC) a not-for-profit
organization focused
onmaternalandreproductivehealthadvocacy,gender-basedviolence,andsocialjustice.SheisontheboardofWestAfricaNetworkforPeacebuilding(WANEP)andtheNigerianWomen'sTrustFund.WANEPisaregionalpeacebuildingorganizationestablishedin1998inresponsetocivilwarsinWestAfrica,whileWomen’sTrustFundwasfoundedtoaddresstheproblemofunderrepresentationofwomeningovernanceandgenderinequality,moregenerally.Dr.Akiyode-AfolabialsoteachesInternationalHumanitarianLawattheUniversityofLagos.RonkeOlawaleisaPhDCandidateinSocialWorkandAnthropologyattheUniversityofMichigan.Broadlyspeakingsheisinterestedinculture,care,andinfectiousdisease;deathanddying,andmeaning-making;kinshipandchildwelfare/wellbeing;andintergenerationalcare.Herdissertationexploresthesocialandculturalcontextinwhichthe2013-2016EbolaVirusDisease(EVD)epidemicoccurredinLiberia.
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RonkeOlawale:Okay,let’sstartnow.GoodmorningDoctor.Iwanttoappreciateyouforparticipatinginthisprojectandalsotobeginbyintroducingmyself.MynameisRonkeOlawale.I’matthefinishingpointofmyPhDattheUniversityofMichiganandI’m
studying social work andmedical anthropology, specifically working
on
howEbolaimpactedsociallifeinLiberia.Pleaselet’sstartbyyouintroducingyourselfandtellingmehowyouwouldliketobeaddressedbutonceyoumentionyournameIwouldalsolikeyoutospellitsothatthereisnomisrepresentation.Thankyou.Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi:I’mDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.I’malecturerattheUniversityofLagos,I’malsoafoundingdirectorofthewomenadvocatesresearchanddocumentationcenter.RO:Thankyou,buthowwouldyouliketobeaddressed?AA:Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.RO:Alright,thankyousomuch.Okay,sothisinterviewisstartingrightnow.TodayisMonday,
November the 4th, 2019 and I’m right herewithDr. Abiola
Akiyode-Afolabi for the Global Feminisms Project. This interview is
part of the
GlobalFeminismsProject,amulti-siteinternationalprojectsponsoredbytheUniversityofMichigan.
Our goal in undertaking these oral histories is to create and
preserveconversations with women whose scholarships and activism
has contributed towomen’s rights activism as that is broadly
conceived or with women
whosescholarshiporactivismhascontributedincriticalwaysthatareimportanttoissuesthataffectwomen.Sotodaywe’llbespendingapproximatelyonehourormoreasmuchaswecangetoraslongaswecangoonbroadtopicsaboutthisproject.Letmethankyou
for accepting toparticipate,we’ll startoutbyaskingyou to
introduceyourself,tellmeyourname,pleasedospellitbecauseIdon’twanttomisrepresentyourname,andalsohowyouwouldliketobeaddressed.Thankyou.AA:
Thank you verymuch. I’m Dr. Abiola Akiyode-Afolabi (spells it). I’m
the
foundingdirectoroftheWomenAdvocatesResearchandDocumentationcenter(WARDC)andI’malsoalecturerattheUniversityofLagos.RO:Thankyousomuch,buthowwouldyouliketobeaddressed?AA:IwouldliketobeaddressedasDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.
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RO:Thankyousomuch.Letmejuststartoutbyaskingyoutogivemeabackgroundaboutyourlife.So,asyouthinkaboutwhereyouaretoday,howyouwoulddepictthejourneythatbroughtyoutothisdesk.AA:Wellit’sreallyaverylongjourneyandjustlikethelifeofeverywomansoitcouldalsobeaverythoughtfuljourneywhereyouhavetopickuplessonsasyougrowupandlessonsdefineyourlifeandyourattitudetowhatyouseearoundyouandhelpintermsofbuildinginstinctstobeabletorespondtoissuesthatarefundamentaltoyouandalsofundamentaltootherpeoplearoundyou.IgrewupfromanaverageNigerianfamily.MyfatherwasanengineerwiththeoldnationalelectricalpowerauthoritycalledNEPAandsomeaningthatwehadtotraveltosomanyplacesbecausehewasbeingtransferredfromthenorthtothesouthsowehadablendoflivingalmostalloverthecountrybecausewehadtomovewithhimtoalltheplacesthathehadtogoto.Mymomhappenstobeatrader,someaningthatshehadtochangeherspaceofbusinesseverytimethatwehadtomove.So,alongtheline,IwasborninKwarastate1,whichisIlorin2;MymomisfromEdostate3,fromBenin4,whilemyfathercomesfromAbeokuta5inOgunstate6.ButIwasborninKwaraState,inIlorin.So,which,toalargeextent,showsthattheblendinNigeriathathasgivenmearootfromthenorthernpartofNigeria,fromthesouth-southpartofNigeriaandfromthesouthwest.Ithinkalsomylifewentinthatdirection.WewereinitiallylivinginIlorin,thenwemovedfromIlorintoOsogbo7.MyfatherthenmovedtoKaduna8andotherplaces.ButwhileweweregrowinguptherearealotofthingsIcanremember,oneofthethingswasalsothefact
thatwas at the time thatNigeriawas trying to liberate itself
fromanti-corruptionpractices.Theone I can rememberclearlywaswhen
Iwasaroundsixyearsold,whenMuritalaMuhammed9wasthePresidentofthecountryandhisfightwasseriouslyagainstanti-corruptionandIremembermyfatherusedtotellmethatasweweregrowingup,wemustknowthatwehaveadutytomakeNigeriaabetterplace.Isawhimraisingvoices
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KwaraisastateinWesternNigeria.TheYorubatribeisitsprimaryethnicgroup,buttherearesignificantpopulationsofNupe,Bariba,andFulani.(“Kwara.”Britannica.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www-britannica-com.proxy.lib.umich.edu/place/Kwara)2IlorinisthecapitalofKwaraState(Ibid.)3EdoStateisastateinNigeria,eastofLagos.Itismadeupoffourmajorethnicgroups:theBini,Esan,Owan,andEstako.(“EdoState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_State)4BeninisthecapitaloftheEdostate.(Ibid.)5AbeokutaisthecapitalandlargestcityintheOgunState.(“OgunState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogun_State)6OgunStateisastateinsouthwesternNigeria.(Ibid.)7OsogboisacityinNigeriaandthecapitaloftheOgunState(“Osogobo.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osogbo)8KadunaisthecapitalofKadunaStateinnorth-westernNigeria,ontheKadunaRiver.(“Kaduna.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaduna)9MurtalaMuhammedwasaNigerianArmyGeneralturnedHeadofStateofNigeriafrom1965untilhisassassinationin1976.(“MurtalaMuhammed.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtala_Mohammed)
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againstanti-corruptionpracticesandIthinkformethat’swhereIdrewmyhumanrightsinklingfrom,seeingwhatmyfatherwasdoingatthattime,goingtospeakoutwhereotherpeoplechosenottosayanythingwhentheyseethingsbeingdoneinaverywrongmanner.ItcouldalsobebecausehewasatIbadanPolyand10hewasaStudentUnionpresident,somaybe
that contributed tohis interests in fighting for justice.And I
think forme
that’swhereIpickedmyownlifestylefrom.Asakid,Iwasveryactive,andIwasalwaysveryinterestedinleading.IrememberthatIwasintoalotofsportingactivitiesasayounggirl.It’slikewhenyougoforanInter-HouseSportsandaparticularnamejustkeptringing:100meters,200meters,400meters,somynamejustkeptcomingup.Iwasalsointerestedinthingslikedebate,quizcompetition,soIwasoneoftheveryfewyounggirlsatthattimewhohadtheopportunitytobegintospeakaboveawhisperwhilegrowingup.So,bythetimeIgottosecondaryschool,thatcharacteristicbecamemuchmoreprominentinmylifeandIstartedaskingquestionsfrommyteachersandbeingveryinquisitiveaboutthewaythingswerehappeningaroundme.SowhenIwasinform3whichwasthe3rdyearinthesecondaryschool,wehadsomeyouthcorpswhowerepostedtotheschooltosupporttheteachersandIrealizedthatonceinawhiletheywouldtakesomegrownupgirlsinclassandtheywouldjusttakethemawayandaskustogocutgrassoutsideandallofthat.Onaparticularday,Imobilizedmyentirematestosay“No,wearenotclearaboutwhatthisisallabout,whyshouldtheybetakingabout5girlsawayeverytimewhenwehaveclassesandallofthat?”AndwhilemobilizingthemIclimbedaclassdesktryingtotalktothem,probably
Idid thatbecauseofwhat Ihaveseen inmoviesordramasbut
forwhateverreason,Iclimbedthetableandformethatwaslikeastage,andasifIhadamicrophoneinfrontofme,as
if Iwasmobilizingpeople to takeaction.So, Iwas telling
them“No,wecannottoleratethisanymore.Weneedtostopthisconduct, it
isnotrightfortheyouthcorpswhoareourteacherstokeepgoingawayeveryweekwithourclassmates,wedon’tknowwhatthey’retakingthemfor.Weneedtotelltheschool;weneedtotelltheschoolauthorities.”Ithinkinthateuphoria,thestudentswerebangingtheirdesks,everyonewassaying“yes,yes!”Asifitwasacampaign.Itbecamelikealargegroupofpeoplemakingnoise,sothentheprincipaloftheschoolsteppedintotheclassroom.Thentheyfoundme,caughtmeinaction,standingontopofthedeskandaddressingmymates.Theyaskedmeto
step down and followhim to his office. Nowwhen I got to his office,
he gaveme asuspension for misconduct. He didn’t allowme to explain
why, he didn’t allowme
toexplainwhatIwastryingtopassacross.So,IlefttogohomeandwhenIgottomyparents,my
father asked what happened and I explained to them what happened.
They
said,“climbingonyourdeskwaswrong,butdidyourprincipalallowyoutoexplainthereasonwhyyoudidwhatyoudid?”andIsaid“no”sohesaid“okay,inthemorningweneedtogo
10ThePolytechnic,Ibadan,isaninstitutiondedicatedtohigherlearninginIbadaninOyoState,Nigeria.Itwasfoundedin1970andaimstoprovideitsstudentswithanalternativehighereducationtouniversities–onethatemphasizestheacquisitionoftechnicalskill.(“ThePolytechnic,Ibadan.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Polytechnic,_Ibadan)
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backtohim,weneedtoexplaintohimthatthesuspensionisprobablynottheresponsetowhatyoudid.”So,Iwentback,andtheprincipalsaid,“Ohwedidn’tknowthatthatwaswhathappened.”Hethenallowedmebacktoschoolthesecondday,theythensetupapanel
of inquiry intowhat happened. Theywere able to find out that the
youth
corpsmemberswereactuallytakingtheoldergirlsinclassoutforsomesexualmisconductandallofthat.So,theypunishedtheNYSC,11andIthinktheyactuallyremovedthemfromtheschool.Andformethatreallyhelpedintermsofcreatingme,makingmeunderstandthatyoudon’thavetokeepquietwhenyouseethingswrong,thatyoucanactuallyfightforjustice
andwin. Also, that in a bid to fight for justice you have to use
the
appropriatemethod.ThemethodthatIusedcould’vejeopardizedtheintention.So,Ilearnedaboutthatatage13,butthegoodthingaboutthatwasthefactthatinaschoolwherethere’sacultureofsilence,inaway,Iwasabletousethattobreakthesilence.So,peoplealsoknowthatwhenthingshappen,theycaneithertalkaboutitandthattheprincipalwouldalsobetheretobeable
torespond to them.So, I startedgettingwithin theschool,when
therewerethingsthatwerenotgoingwell,peoplefeltconfidenttowalktomeandsay“doyounoticethis?”,youknow,asakid,becauseIalsogotthevoice--theears--oftheprincipal.So,Iwouldquicklygoandtellhim,youknow,“thetoiletshavebeeninastate”andallofthat.So,IbecamelikeasmallGaniFawehinmi12campusandbythetimeIgottothenextyear,
Ibecame the school debater just because of being able to findmy
voice. So Iwas beingrecommended to do debates for school and all of
that and I remember that we wereactuallyat that timenot
talkingonlyabout issues thatarenotreal,we’re
talkingaboutissuesofyellowjournalism;we’retalkingaboutissuesofapartheidinAfrica,we’retalkingaboutissuesofcapitalpunishment,we’retalkingaboutsexeducationinschoolsandthoseissueswerethencontemporary.Theywereissuesthatwereverystrongforayoung14yearoldtodealwith,butwewerereadingandourteacherswerehelpingus,weweregoingforthosedebatesandIrememberthatonedaythenoldOyoStatedebateandIwastheleaddebateratthatlevelandforme,havingthatexperiencegavemestrongerinterestinwantingtocontributetosociety.Leavingthesecondaryschool,Ibecameaschoolprefect,and
while being a school perfect I brought into the school a lot of
innovation and
Irememberitwaswhenwewantedtobeelected,normallywhattheydoinschoolistojustappoint,maybethebeststudentsandallofthat.Iwenttomeettheprincipalandinsistedthatinsteadweshouldhaveanelection.So,forthefirsttimewehadanelectioninthatsecondaryschool,whichwasthenOsogboGrammarSchool.So,bythetimeIgottotheuniversity,IwasalreadycutouttocontinuedoingwhatIwasdoingatthattime.So,when
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TheNationalYouthServiceCorpswassetupbytheNigeriangovernmenttoinvolveNigeriangraduatesinnationbuildinganddevelopment.(“NationalYouthServiceCorps.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Youth_Service_Corps)
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GaniFawehinmiwasaNigerianauthor,publisher,philanthropist,socialcritic,experiencedhumanandcivilrightslawyer,politician,andSeniorAdvocateofNigeria.(“GaniFawehinmi.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gani_Fawehinmi)
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Igottotheuniversity,oneofthethingsIsawonthefirstday,orthesecondday,thefirstweekIenteredObafemiAwolowoUniversity--GreatIfe,wasthattherewasastudentunionelection.
So, wewere all there, JAMB-ites13 walking around and I got to the
faculty
ofeducationandIrealizedthattheywerevoting.So,wewerewatching,justobservingtheirvotesbecausewedidn'thavetherighttovotebecausewejustcameinbyaweek.So,thenextthingwesawwassomestudentsjustcameinandtheycarriedtheballotbox,threwit,scatterediteverywhere,theyranofftheplace.Iwaslike“Whatishappeninghere?”SoI
went back to my room in annoyance because I had a great dream
picking
ObafemiAwolowoUniversitybecauseitwasoneofthebestuniversitiesatthattime,theyusedtocallitGreatIfe,soIwentbacktomyroomIpickedupmypen,asaJAMB-itehavingspentjustoneweekinschool,Iwroteanarticle“TheGreatIfethatIUsedtoKnow.”Andinthatarticle,IdepictedmydreamabouttheUniversityandcameupwiththeconclusionthatwhat
Isawwasdisappointingandthat itshouldn’tbedone inanysociety that is
ideal.Peoplehavearighttovoteandnobodyhasarighttodestructthevotingprocesses.So,Ipostedit.IthinkitwasapagedocumentandIpasteditaroundthecampusbymyself.So,peoplestartedreading
it inthemorningandtheywerewondering“Whois this?”andIwrote that I’m
a JAMB-ite. Theywere like, “Who is this JAMB-ite?Why should you
beinterestedinschoolpolitics?”So,becauseofthat,IgotalotofpeopletrytofindmeandcametomyroomtoinvitemetojoinProgressiveSchoolAssociation.IdecidedtojointhethenMarxistgroup,whichwascalledtheLiberalMilitants.TheMarxistgroupwasbasicallylookingathowtorespondtoalotofissuesoncampus.Itwasastudents’movementthathadawholelotofpeoplewho,likeFemiFalana14andallofthosewhohadpassedthroughtheprocessbefore.So,Ijoinedthem,andIstartedtalkingtothemabouthowtomaketheUniversityabetterplaceandIrememberthat,withintheperiodofIthinkayear,IbecametheSecretaryGeneralofthemovement.OneofthegoodthingsIcanrememberaboutthatmovementisthatthemovementallowsustoreadalotaboutawholelotofthingsfromtheMarxistperspectiveabout
the stateof capital, how theeconomyof the
societywillgrow,andwhycapitalismisnotsupportingthegroupsofNigeriaasacountryandthefactthatcapitalismisadoomedprocessthat’sactuallygoingtomakelifemoredifficultforthepoor.It’sgoingtoenrichthefewpeoplewhoareinapositionofpowerandthatthebestwaytoresolveissuesaroundeconomicgrowthistobringtheeconomyinthehandsofthepeople,sothatpeoplearetheonesmanagingit.AndIfoundthattheoryveryinteresting.Igotinvolvedinthattheory,andwetalkaboutitandtrytogetasmanystudentsaspossibleto
join the movement. My third year, we were supposed to run for
elections and the
13JAMB-iteisanacronymgiventostudentsseekingadmissionintoatertiary-levelinstitution.ThenamecomesfromtheJointAdmissionsandMatriculationsBoard(JAMB),whichisaNigerianentranceexaminationforfurtherhighereducation.(“JointAdmissionsandMatriculationBoard.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Admissions_and_Matriculation_Board)
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FemiFalanaisaNigerianlawyerandhumanrightsactivist.(“FemiFalana.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femi_Falana)
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movementthendecidedthatIshouldrunandIsaid“NoIwouldjustliketo-”becauseifyoumeetmeonthewayyou’renotlikelytothinkI’manactivistbecausemylookdoesnotdepictsomebodywhoisconfrontationalorwhoisanactivist.Ihadalittlebitofagentlemienandso
Iwasreallynot interested., Iwasnotcomfortablebeing in the
ideologicalbackground,ratherthanbeingthefaceofthemovement.Theysaid“No,”andIsaid“Why?”Theysaid“becausetherehasneverbeenawomanwhohasrunforthatpositionbefore,”andtheythoughtthatIhadenoughpedigreetobeabletorunforthatpositionasaPublicRelationsofficeroftheStudents’UnionbecauseatthattimethatwaslikethemouthpieceandatthatpointintimetheStudents’UnionwasthebackboneofsomeofthemovementsthatweusedtoseeinNigeriaatthattime.So,meaningthatasaPublicRelationsOfficerofObafemiAwolowoUniversity,you’llbespeakingwithalotofmedia,you’llbetheonetobethevoiceofthestudents.So,Iwasalittlebitreluctant,butthemovementrulewasthatwhenyouhavebeenaskedtodosomethingyoudon’tsayno.Itwasacollectivedecisionsoyoucanonlydowhatthemovementaskedyoutodo.So,IstartedcampaigningandIrememberthatbecauseIwasawoman,andIthinkthat’swheremyconsciousnessaboutthedifferenceofbeingamanandawomanactuallydevelopedfrom.IthoughtIhadallthecapacitytoengage,buttherewassomethingmissing.Irealizedthatpeoplewerelookingatme,
still yet, asawoman.Nowthemovementwas trying toaddress
thatpatriarchalthinkingbysayingyouputyourselfout,letusletpeopleknowthatwealsohavewomenwhohaveavoice,whoareintelligent,whocandobetterthanmeninthatposition.But,youknow,dealingwithsocietytheyreallyfoundmeverydifferent.So,IstartedwithasloganandIthinkitwasLeonTrotsky15whosaid,“Wheretraditionislacking,astrikingexamplebecomesnecessary.”So,Iputthatupinaposterthatinthiscampus,thereisatraditionthat’slacking,andthattraditionisthatyoudon’teverfindwomeninthatkindofposition.Theyonly
findwomen in theVicePresidency andTreasurer, that Iwant tobreak
thattraditionsoweneedastrikingexampleandthatI’llbetheexampletoshowthatit’snotaboutbeingaman
to takeup thatpositionand interestingly, that rosea lotof
interestamongstudents.So,therewerealotofquestions,youknowonmypostersyousee,“canawomandoit?”“WhosaysawomancanbethePRO?”and“Willyounotrunawaywhenthepolicecomewithgunsandallofthat?”“Areyousurethatyouwillnotdisappointuswhenweneedyoumost?”andallofthat,soalotofwritingsandallofthat.So,meaningthat,forme,unlikeotherpeople--theywouldprobablycampaignforlike3days,Ihavetocampaignforalongerperiod.So,Icampaigned,andIwasreallyshockedonthedaythatwenormallydoadebatebeforetheelection,sotheywouldbringallthecandidatesondebatesandtalktostudents.AsIstooduptotalk,Isawthattheentireauditoriumofabout10,000studentsstoodupinsolidaritywithmeandbythetimeIgottotherostrumtotalk,theywerejustshouting,“Youarewinning,youarewinning,youarewinning,youdon’tneedtoanswer
15LeonTrotskywasaSovietrevolutionaryandMarxisttheorist.(“LeonTrotsky.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky)
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anyquestions.”AndIstoodupthereandIthinkformethatwasamomentinmylifethatIcannotforgetwhereitshowsalotofacceptancebyyourpeersandtheschool.So,IthentriedtopersuadethecrowdtocalmdownandIsaidtothemthatIwouldliketosayafewwords.“Yes,Iagree,andIacceptthefactthattheydidn’twantmetosayanything,thattheyhaveacceptedthatIamgoingtowintheelection,butIwouldliketosayafewwords.”So,Ispoketothem,appreciatingthem,andalsopromisingthemthatIwilltryasmuchaspossiblenottodisappointthestudentswhohadgivenmethevotes.So,wewentontheelectionday,verycompetitive,interestingly.Despitethat,IthinkIwonbyelevenvotes,someaningthattherewasalotofcompetition.Afterthat,Ihadtodoalotofthingsandformethegenderquestionsalsocameindifferenttimes.Forexample,theassumptionisthatanystudentinthatposition-paststudentleadersinthatposition-thereisanexpectationthatyou’resupposedtosmoke,thatyouweresupposedtodrink.So,Igotalotofpeoplecominguptotellmethat.“Oh,theguyswhowereinthispositionbefore,theysmoke,theydrink,theydothis,theydothat,andthatyouarealsoexpectedtodothat.So,youcan’tsayno-”andItoldthemtosay,andIhadtodealwiththat,tosaythat“Ihavetobemyself,”evendespiteallthatpressure].IhadsituationswherebyIthinktherewasaparticulardaywhenaparticularsideoftheUniversitywasburning,therewasafiredisasterandwewereexpectedtogothereasleadersofthecampus.So,Ididn’tknow,Iwassleeping,andbeforeIknew
itall theguyswere insidemyhostelwhichwaswrongbecause itwasa
femalehostel.Anditwasatimewhentheladieswereouttohavetheirbathandallofthat,soIjusthadalotofpeoplescreaming.So,theyjusttookadvantageofthefactthattheyhadafemalestudentleaderinthehostelandtheyjustcameandstartedbangingonmydoor,“Youhavetocomeout,that’swhywedon’twantawoman!”So,mypointisthatforeveryaspectofmywork,mygenderwasaquestion.Andforme,itmademeunderstandthefactthattherearestrongpatriarchalnormsinthesociety.Thatevenwhenyouappeartobethebestwomanforthejob,there’salwaysaquestionaboutyourcapacitytobeabletodeliver.AndIthinkthehighestpointwaswhensomecultguysenteredthecampusandtheystartedshootingeverywhereandstudentswereafraid,andIrealizedonthatdaythatnobodyelsewasaroundexceptme.So,Ithoughttomymindthatmaybetheguysknewthattheseguyswerecomingbuttheydidn’tletmeknow.So,IwasthenlefttoconfronttheissueastheonlystudentunionleaderthatwasoncampusonthatdayandIrememberIhadto,despitethegunshotandthefactthatstudentswererunninghelter-skelter,Ihadtomovefromonehosteltoanothertotrytocalmthestudentsdown.Tosaythat“We’retryingtogetacrosstothesecuritytoaddressthematter”andIrememberthatwhenIgottotheparticularhall,whichisaveryknownhall,whichiscalledAwolowohall,themostvibranthallintheUniversity,theyfeltthatwhatIwassayingwasasignofweakness.ThatIwasnotexpectedtotellthestudentsthat,thatwhatIshouldhavebeentellingthestudentsisto
come out enmasse to fight against the cultists. Thatwas notmy
opinion because
Ithoughtthatitwouldmeanhavingalotofstudentsdiethatnightbecauseitwasalreadylikesevenintheevening.ButbythetimeIgottoAwolowoHall,thenumberofstudentsI
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metthere,anditwasobviousthattheywerewaitingformetosaythesamething,thenprobablyIwouldbemobbedandallofthat.So,bythetimeIgotthere,IrealizedthatthecrowdwasnotgoingtolistentothatsermonthatIwaspassingfromonehosteltoanother.So,Idecided,becausethatlookstomethatwaswhattheywantedfrommeandIhadnooptionthentojustsaywhattheywanted.So,IrememberIsaid“GreatestIfe,thisisnotUniversityofIbadan.GreatIfe
isnottheUniversityofBenin. It
isnotaplacewhereweallowcultismtobethecultureofthestudents.InthisUniversitytoday,wewillresisteveryattempt-”soIchangedmyvoice.So,Istartedtalkingaboutresistingtheattempt.Now,bycallingforresistance,whatitthenmeansisthatweweregoingtomarchfromtheretogoandfightandbattlewiththecultistswhowerealreadyoncampus.So,Iledthemfromthathostel,
through the den of the cultists. Of course, it became like awhole
lot of issues.Students they fought against themselves, some got
wounded, and they arrested
somestudentsthatwerecultistmembers.So,theybroughtthemtoAwolowohall,thatsamehallwheretheythinktheyhaveallthepower.So,theybroughtthemtothehall,theylockedthemup,theywerebeingmaltreatedandIwasscreamingandsaying“No,thisisnotright,we
can’t continue beating people!” and all of that. And I could see a
lot of things
thathappenedonthatdaywhichIwasnothappywith.So,theschoollateroncameinbecauseIthinkeventhen,therewasaparticularstudentwhowasrelatedtotheViceChancellor,Ithinkhissonwasoneofthosethatwasarrested.Mostofthepeoplethatwerearrestedwerealsostudents,lecturer’sstudents,andallofthat.So,itbecamelikeabigissueandlateron,theschoolhadtowadeintothematter.Butforme,intermsofremembering-becauseIknowthatlaterontherewasabigpanelsomeofthecultistswereexpelledandIhadalotofbacklash,havingledthat.ThereweretimeswhenI’dgettomyhostelandhavetomeettheheadofagoatblood,saying“Countyourdays”andallofthat.So,asayounggirl,becausethenIwasalsojustlike19or20,itgotbacktomeandIbecameafraidoncampus.Icouldnotletanybody…Ididn’thavethecapacitytotellanyonethewayIwasfeeling.I’dbewalking,I’dbelookingaroundmyself,peopleattimescomebehindmeandtellme“Wetoldyounottodoit,you’vedoneit,we’llmakesure....”So,therewerealotofthreatsaround,butbecausethesystemdidalsonotallowit,formetoshowmyfears.Sorather,Ikeptmyfearstomyself,Ilearnedhowtomovefrommyroom.Iwasonthethirdfloor,butIcouldmovefromthethirdfloor,frommy310to305.IcouldskipfrommyroomwhenIhearpeoplearoundmydoortothenextoneuntil305whereIhadafriend,thenIwouldcomebackthroughthebackdoor.Youknow,itwasquiteriskybecauseIcouldhavefelldownfromthethirdfloorandallofthat,butIlearnedtodothatasawayofsavingmyself,butIdidn’thavethecapacitytotellanybodywhatIwasfeelingandthefactthatIwasafraid,thefactthatmylifewasunderthreatandallofthat.Sothat’swhyIsaidthat’soneexperiencethatIcanremember.Thenbeforegraduating,IhadalotofthreatsfromalsolecturerswhofeltthatIwas--eventheViceChancelloratthattime--feltthatIwastooradicalandthatIthinktheyhadtonegotiatewhethertheywantedmetoremainoncampus
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ortoleave.AndIthinkthattheypickedtheoptionof“lethergosothatwecanhavesomekindofpeaceoncampus.”AndthatwashowIlefttheUniversity.RO:Wow.Interesting.Yeah,yousaidalotofthingsandIactuallyhavebeentakingnotes.
I’m justwondering,what early did you see as dynamismof gender in
thedifferentpartsofthecountrywhereyoulivedandgrewup?AA:Well,
forexample, Iknowthatalthough Igrewupaside
fromnorth-central,KwaraState.KwaraStateis,uptotoday,ahighlymultiethnicstate,whereyouhaveYoruba,youhaveHausa,andothertribes.ButthedominantpeoplethereistheYoruba,HausaandtheFulaniandIthinktheycallthem‘Gambari’inthatstate.So,meaningthattherearedifferentattitudes
to the gender issue in that state because it’s not only cultural
but it’s
alsoreligious.So,atypicalyounggirlisexpectedtohavetheveilontobeabletobeacceptedinthatsociety.Andofcourse,inthatsocietyalsoIsawwhilegrowingup,youhavealotofyounggirls,whoweremyfriends,gotmarriedearly.Therewerealotofthingsaroundthecelebrationofyoungwivesatthattime.InOsunState,16itwasquitealittlebitdifferentfromKwaraState.OsunStatewasmorecultural,butyoudidn’tseethatstrongreligiousaffiliationatthattime.AndalsoInoticedthatwhilegrowingupofcoursetherewerealsoa
lotof
issuesIknewabout,talkaroundsexualabuse,aboutrape,asearlyasmaybeaswhenIwaslikesixorseven,becausethereweretalksaboutmyfriendshavingbeenrapedbysomebodyandallofthat.So,therewerealotofthosesocialproblemshappeningatthattime.Althoughthedifferencebetweenthenandnowisthatthoseconversationswerenotconversationsthatyoucanbefreetotalkaboutinschoolorthatyourparentsfeelfreetotalkabouttoyou.Somoreorless,Ithinkforthosetwostatestherewerealotoftraditionalissues,culturalissuesthataffectthegrowthofwomenandgirls.Youcanseethateveninschool,thewayalotofmyfriendsthathadtodropbecausethen,wewerepayingforschoolfeesandallofthat,andtheirparentscannotpay.AndIthinkalsoinaclass,wehadhalfofthestudentswerestudentswhowerewiththeir
fosterparents,sotheyweremore
likehouse-girlsbecauseIwenttoapublicschool,therewerehousegirls,someofthemcamelatetoschoolandallofthat.SothoseissuesweresomeoftheissuesthatIsawgrowingup.So,you
thenseewehadmoreboys thatwerebrilliantbecause
theyhadopportunities,becausetheycometoschoolearly,theycanalsoleaveattheirowntime,butthegirlswerenot
as brilliant as boys at that time because they were not given
opportunities
toconcentrateontheirstudies,particularlythoseinpublicschoolthantheboys.RO:Doyouthinkthathaschangedovertheyears?
16
Osunisaninlandstateinsouth-westernNigeriawhosecapitalisOsogbo.ItisborderedbyKwaraStateintheNorth.(“OsunState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osun_State)
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AA:Well,ifIlookat,sittinghereasalectureroftheUniversityofLagos,thefacultyofLawinparticular,and
lookingatmystudents I thinkthere’sahighnumberofyounggirls.
Ithinkit’sevenhigherthanthenumberofboysthatIseeinclass.So,meaningthatmaybeinthesouthwestpartof
thecountrybecauseIdon’t thinkthat
isgeneral,becauseIamawarethatthedatathatiscomingfromthenortheastofNigeria,westillhaveabout70%ofwomenareilliterateinthatarea.AndIamstillawarethatchildmarriageisstillverycommoninthatarea.So,theremighthavebeensomekindoflittletiltsanditcouldalsobethatispeculiartoLaw,becauseitmightnotbethatsamewithengineeringormedicine,butIknowthatovertimetherehasbeenaslightimprovementinthenumberofgirlsinschool.RO:Okay,thankyou.So,veryquickly,Ijustneedoneortwopiecestoaddtothat.So,that’syourjourneythroughlife.Whatwouldyousayyourcentralcommitmentsinlifehavebeen?AA:Well,Ithinkmywholelifeisaboutjustice,andIthinkthat’sapriorityissuetomeandnowit’saboutmoreofgender
justicebecauseIrealizedovertimethatwomenare inaparticular position
in this society, andmaybe generally in all society,where society
isprogrammedinamanneragainstthem.There’sanexclusion,irrespectiveofwhoyouare,evenifyouareaprofessoritdoesn’treallymatter.IntheworkthatIdo,wehaveseenasituationwherebyahusbandofaprofessordied,andtheysentafaxmessagethatshe’sgoingtobetakenoverbythebrotherofthehusband.So,mypointisthatallofthethingsI’veseenisthattheinjusticeagainstwomenis
locatedwithinthepatriarchalnormandthereisaconspiracyaroundthenormtotheextentthatithasbecomeaweb.Andit’sverydifficultforwomentobeabletobreakthewebandtoseethemselvesasagroupofpeopleinasocietythatisfreefromanyformofinjustice.So,theinjusticeissohistoricalinthelivesofwomenthatthere’saneedtogatherthestormtobeabletoaddresstheproblem.So,weneedaverystrongwaveandthatisthecauseoflifeIhavetaken.Howdowebegintobuildthatwave?Andthatwaveisnotawavecanbedoneinisolation,it’snotawavethatcanbedonealone,itcannotbeinalonerway,butratherit’sawavewherewehavetobuildsolidaritywithotherwomen,withothergirlstobeabletoliberatewomenfromtheveryterriblepatriarchalnormsthathavebeendefiningtheirlives,thathavebeenpushingwomenthroughthecoursethattheyknownothingabout,buttheyjusthavetocontinuetoansweraquestionwhichtheydidn’toriginate.Andformethat’sacauseoflifethatIhavetakentoseewhatwecando.AndIdothatindifferentways.Imobilize,Ibuildsolidarity,Iinvestinnetworking,andwealsousethelawasawaybecausewehavealsorealizedinsome
places one of the easiest ways to liberate women is also to come up
with legaljurisprudencethatcanhelpinpromotingtherightsofwomen.
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RO:Great,thankyousomuch.Sofinally,onthatsegment,whatthereforewouldyousayisyourmostsignificantachievement,professionally?AA:Wellforme,Ithinkthereareseveral.OneofthethingsthatI’vedoneasheadoftheorganizationintermsofbuildingsolidarityistosetupagrassrootsnetworkbecauseIalsorealizethatoneofthethingsthatwouldcontinuetoaffectbuildingafeministsocietyisifwedon’tconnectwiththebulkofthepeople.Sowehaveworkedandwenowhaveaboutsixty
communities acrossNigeria from the south and the northwherewehave
built afeminist paralegal system where people in communities, both
men and women,
arecommittedtoensuringthatthere’sgenderjusticeforwomenfolk,toalsoensurethatthesocietyisheldaccountableforwhateverhappenstothewomen.Secondly,we’vealsobuiltthat
same community of young girls in about 10 states, so like a total
of about
45universitiesacrossNigeria,andpolytechnics,whereweworkwithyounggirlstofindtheirvoice,alsotohaveanunderstandingoffeminism,andalsosupportandpromotefeministbehavioranddevelopafeministcommunity.Thirdly,it’sontheissueofthelegalspace.Wehavetakenupsomecasesoncitizenship.We’vealsotakenupcasesonmaternalhealthinNigeria.WeareawarethatNigeriahasoneofthehighestmaternalmortalityratesintheworld,sowehaveactuallytakenthegovernmenttocourt.Wehavetakenactionswherethegovernmenthadtoclosedownthebloodbankwhenwerealizedthatthebloodbankwascontributingtomaternaldeath.Wehadasituationwherebyhealthfacilitiesthatwerecontributingtomaternaldeathhavebeencloseddownduetoourworkintermsofholdingthegovernmentaccountable.Ofrecent,wehavealsogoneintothe“MeToo”case.WehadcontributedtothefirstclassicalcasewhereaprofessorofaUniversitywhowasaccusedofsexualharassmentwasconvicted.WehadsupportedthestudentinensuringthattheappropriateevidencewasputbeforethecourtandthatwasthefirstcaseinNigeriawherea
professorwas convicted for sexual-harassment and I think itwas for
like two yearsimprisonment. So, in terms of building themovement,we
have a very strong voice
inbuildingthewomen’smovement.Wewillnotachieveanythingasagroupofwomenifwedon’t
have a strong movement. Within the political space, there is a need
to build
amovementthatcanholdpoliticalpartiesaccountable.Thewomen’smovement,forustobeabletoaddressfivemajorissueswhichwehavefoundasourpriorityissuesinNigeria.Oneisthewomeninpolitics.IfyoulookatthenumberofwomeninpoliticsinNigeria,asofthislastyear,itisnotupto6%attheNationalAssembly.Sogenerally,there’saseriousdownturnintermsofthenumberofwomeninpolitics.So,we’vetakenthatasapriorityforcauseandthetheoryisthatifwomenparticipateindecisionmaking,it’sgoingtobeabletochangethelivesofwomenandgirlsinthecountry,thereisempiricalevidencetosupportthat.Oursecondissueistheissueofviolenceagainstwomenandgirls.Ourtheoryis
that if we do not address the issue of violence against women and
girls, the
oldconversationaboutsustainabledevelopmentgoalswillbeamirage.So,there’saneedforustocontributeinlawmakingandpolicyinterventionandinstitutionbuilding.Awareness
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andsensitizationforpeopletobeabletohaveaccesstotheinstitution,freeforsurvivorstobeabletosupporttheireducationofviolenceagainstwomenandgirlsinNigeria.Thethirdissueistheissueofwomenintheeconomy.Aswespeaktoday,womenrepresentthehighestnumberofpoorpeopleinthiscountry.Theyarepoorbecauseoftheirunpaidcarework;theyarepoorbecausesocietyhasnotseenwomeninanyareaofdevelopmentasacriticalsegment.Andifyoulookat,intherealsense,thesmall,olderwomenfarmerswhoare
thepeoplehelping in termsof food security forusasa
country.Womenrepresentabout70%of thatand that’sabulkso theycannot
talkaboutpovertyor
foodsecuritywithout…So,whenthesocietyisinthatregardandtheydonotseetherelevanceofwomenintermsoftheeconomy.Ithinkit’smadeconomicsifyouexclude50%ofyourpopulationin
termsof development. So that’s an area inwhichwe also look at. The
other area iswomeninpeaceandsecurity. IfyougototheIDPs17
inthiscountry,particularly
inthenortheast,whichisalsoanareawherewework,tomorrowI’mgoingtoAdamawaState18so
it’s a placewherewework, andwe know.We have talked and
consultedwith thewomen. The women still represent the largest
number of people in those IDP
camps,internallydisplacedpersoncamps.Ifyoulookatthehugemillionsofpeoplethathavebeensubjectedandput
intothe IDPcamps inNigeria, thereareover like
fivemillionpeopleacrossthecountry.Andifyoulookatthekindoflifethatthey’resubjectedtoforanoffencethattheyknownothingaboutasagroupofpeople.Ifwedon’taddresstheissueofconflict,lifewillnotbebetteroffforwomen.So,itiscriticalthatweaddresstheissueofpeaceandsecurity.Itiscriticalthatwhileaddressingit,theindigenousknowledgeisveryimportant.Andwhenyoutalkabout
indigenousknowledge, thewomenplayaverycriticalrole
inproducingthatindigenousknowledgeandifthegovernmentdoesnotseethatrolethatwomenplayintermsofdecisionmakingandpeaceandsecurity,thenthereisaproblem.Sothelastissueistheissueofsexualandreproductiverights,whichisveryfundamental,whichisverycritical.Therighttoawoman’sbodilyintegrityisnotacompromise.It’sarightthatshouldbegivenbecauseifyoulookatthepopulationofthecountry,ifinthelast10yearsweusedtosaythatthere’s1millionpeopleinthiscountry,buttodaythereare200million.Andthisisaresultofthefactthatwomenwhoaresupposedtomakeachoice,intermsofthepopulation,arenotgiventhatopportunitytobeabletomakethatchoice,whethertohaveanabortion,whethertohaveachild,orwhethernottohaveachild.Soifwedon’taddress
that, thepopulationwillkeepgettingbiggerbecausewomen lack
thevoicetobeabletomakeadecisionintermsoftheirsexualandreproductiverights,intermsoftheirbodilyintegrity.So,forme,thosearefiveareas,andwhichisthereasonwhywe
17
IDPisanacronymforInternallyDisplacedPersons(IDP)camps.TheUNHCRdefinesthisgroupasrefugeeswhohavenotcrossedabordertofindsafetyandremainundertheprotectionoftheirgovernment,evenifthatgovernmentisthereasonfortheirdisplacement.(“InternallyDisplacedPeople.”UNHCR.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/internally-displaced-people.html)18AdamawaisastateinnortheasternNigeria,whosecapitalandlargestcityisYola.(“AdamawaState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamawa_State)
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aremobilizingwomentohaveaconversation.There’saneedforustodiscussintermsof“What
is the Nigeria we want, as women in Nigeria?” So, there’s a
movement that
isgraduallybuildingtowardsanationalconversation.ThereisaneedforwomeninNigeriatohaveanationaldialogue,tobeabletocometogetheranddefinethekindofNigeriathatwewant.ThecurrentNigeriaandthecurrentsystemisnotinanywayfeminist,it’snotinanywayconsideratetogenderequality,andwhatithasbeendoingistofurtherstrengthentheinstitutionthatweakensthewomen’smovementandgenderjustice.RO:Thankyousomuch,youknow,you’veactuallybeguntoaddressotherquestionsthatmight’vecomeupseparately,butthenIwilljustaskthisbriefly,sohowwouldyousayyour
involvementandyourworkhavebeenshapedbyyourexperiencesovertheyears?AA:WellIbelievethat,IknowIsaidtooneofthemediathateveryonehasastorytotellaboutwhathappenswhenyou’regrowingup.IgrewupalsoinacontextoftheworkthatIdo.Mymomwasoneofthosewhosufferedsomeviolence,likeanyotherwoman,whichisacommonthinginAfricaandprobablyallovertheworld.Andittookheralongtimetofindthatvoice,soIamworkinganexperiencethatI’vegonethrough,asachildwhenIseemyparentsfightingandIrunaway,hidesomewhere,beingafraidmaybesomethingwouldhappen
to them,maybe they’ll kill themselves, andallof that. So, I
canunderstand
thetrauma,thatevenwhenyou’renotanactiveparticipantinthebattleinthehome,asachildyoucanfeelsomething.AndIgrewuptosay,“Idon’twanttoexperiencethiskindofthing.”So,meaningthatithastodowiththekindofchoicesthatImakeinmylife,andIreallywanttohelpmyfriends,Iwanttohelpotherpeopleintheworldnottoexperiencethiskindofviolencethatmymotherexperienced.Ithinkattheageof35shealreadyhadhighbloodpressure,attheageof45-47shehaddoneheartsurgerytogetastentinangioplastyandallofthat.AndIknewthatallthishappenedbecauseofsomeofthepressurethatshehadgrowingupinanabusivefamilyandrelationship.Andwesawitasachildandsoforme,I’mnotspeakingasanoutsider.I’mspeakingassomebodywhohadexperiencedit,whosawit,whoknewtheimplication.So,forme,whenyou’retellingmethat“violenceagainstwomenisahealthissue,”Iunderstoodthatverywell.Mymomis78yearsold,Itakeherhealthmuchmoreseriouslythananyotherthing,becauseIknewwhatshehasgonethrough.MyfatherislatesoIcanunderstandthehealthaspectofit.Theeconomyaspectofit,IgrewupasachildandIsawmyfatherdestroyourentireeconomy.Isawhimdrivehiscartobreakherbottlesthatshehadputtogetherinaplacethatshewantedtosell,
and I sawher rolling on the floor, crying, “whenwould I be able to
get this thingtogetheragain?”So, Iunderstoodwhentheysay
it’saneconomic issuebecause
Iknowseveralotherwomenwhogothroughthis,whohavetolosetheirwork,theirjob,becausetheyhavetocomelatetoworkbecausetheyhavebeenbeateninthemorning.Theydon'twanttoshowtheblackeyetotheirpeopleintheofficeortheyhadtogotothehospitalfor
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whathappened.SoIknowthatitcouldbeaneconomicissueandIalsoknowthatit’sapoliticalmatterbecauseIhavealsoengagedalotofpolicy,alotofpeopleinpolicyanddecisionmaking,wehaveengagedtheminabidtopassaViolenceAgainstWomenActindifferentstates.Andwehaveseentheresistancebysomeofthemennottoallowthebilltopreventviolenceagainstwomentopass,soIunderstandthatit’spolitical.Iunderstandforeverymanwhoissittingonthechairwhoviolateshiswifebecauseit’snotgeneral,notallofthemdo.Itfeelswhenyouspeakaboutwomen,youarespeakingabouthisconducttohiswifeortohisgirl,buttothegirlsandnottohisdaughterortoanywomanthatheviolates.So,Icanunderstandapoliticalnatureofviolenceagainstwomen.So,Isithere,andIspeakfromalotofexperiencethatIhaveseen.EvenasalecturerintheUniversitythatstudentsconfidein,theycometometotalktomeaboutsomeofthethingshappeningtothem,thekindofrapethattheysufferinthesystem,theviolencethattheysuffer,theharassmentthattheysuffer.So,Iamnotspeaking,andthat’swhyIsayIspeakconfidentlyasaparticipant.So,Iunderstandviolenceagainstwomen,Iunderstandtheissuearoundwomenpoliticalparticipationandthefactthatifwedon’thaveourvoicesthere,youknow,nothingwillhappen.So,myexperienceinlife,thepeopleI’veworkedwith,thethingsthatIhavedone,hasalsomademeunderstand…Ijustremembered--OneofthethingsthatIthinkwehavealsodoneinthisorganizationisalsotosupportlawmakinginNigeria,isitlawmaking,tosupportthepassageofgender-basedviolenceprohibitionlaws,Ithinkinabout3or4stateswehavepushedthatlawsuccessfullyandthelawhasbeenpassedinOgunstate,inEkitistate19,andinMaiduguri20,we’reworkingonthelawatthenationallevel--wecontributed
to thepassageof the lawand insomeotherstates that I
cannotremember,IthinkBenuestate,wehadalsoparticipatedintheprocessofensuringthatthestatepassedit.Also,mypointisthatI’mspeakingfromtheexperienceofhavinghadtonegotiate,tolobbythepolicymakerswhoaremajorlymen,tobeabletopasstheselaws.So,I’mnotinanywaydisconnectedfromwhatIstandfor.So,IstandforitbecauseIknowthatitisneeded,Iknowthatit’sapriority,andIknowthattheliberationofwomenisnotacompromise.It’snotsomethingIwanttocompromise,it’snotsomethingthatwewanttonegotiateinthiscountry.ForNigeriatobebetter,forNigeriatobeabletogetitsplaceintheworld,Nigeriamustaddressthegenderquestion.Ifwedon’t,we’llremainwhereweare.RO:Sowhateverhappenedtothegirlchild’sbillaboutgirlschildmarriage,thatwasthrownoutoftheHouseacoupleofyearsagowhenthat-washeaSenator?-marriedthelittlegirl?
19
EkitiStateisinsouth-westernNigeria.(“EkitiState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekiti_State)20MaiduguriisthecapitalandlargestcityofBornoStateinnorth-easternNigeria.(“Maiduguri.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiduguri)
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AA: I remember Iwas an activeparticipant in that process too.
Iwas a coordinator
ofgenderandconstitutionalreformnetworkinNigeria.AnditwasatapointwhenthereformoftheconstitutionwasgoingonandoneoftheareasthatwearetryingtopushforwastheareaofaddressingSection29.4,subsectionBof4BoftheNigerian1999Constitution.So,we’re
trying to push for the amendment because in a way the law defines
the age
ofmajorityas18andgoesfurthertosaythatanywomanwhoismarriedisdeemedtobeanadult.Nowwhilethatlawwastalkinginthecontextofcitizenshipandregistration,butinaway,
itcanalsoaffirmthe lackofuniformity inwhatwecalledtheageofmajority
inNigeriabysayingthatanywomanwhoismarried,especiallyinacountrywhereyouknowthattherearealotof
instanceswherenine-year-old,ten,seven-year-oldgirlsarebeingmarriedoff.Nigeriaisoneofthecountrieswhereearlychildmarriageisveryprevalent.Tonowhavesomething
in theconstitutionthatsayswhereachild
ismarried,whereawomanismarried,whatthathasdoneistousemarriagetodeterminetheageofmajority.Andso,wetried,welobbied,gotalotofsenatorsonoursidethenwewerebeingledbySenatorAl-HassanwholateronbecametheMinisterofWomen’sAffairsyearsback.AndIrememberwithFIDA21,HauwaShekarau22whowasthenthePresidentofFIDA,wehadworkedovernightwiththethenSenatorAl-HassantoworkoutsomethingthatwouldbepushedforwardtotheSenateonthatday.So,wewereactuallyrightthereatthegallerywhenthewholethinghappened.Soshehadagreedtopush,butbythetimeshegottotheHouse,itwasadifferentstoryandwealsosawrighttherewhere,thefactthatshedidn’thave
the capacity to,becauseof thepressure she lost the capacity
tohelpus to
lobbyeffectively,tobeabletopushbecausethevoicesofthemenwerehigherthanhers.Andthatraisesthequestionofevenwhenwomenreallywanttomakechangehappen,ifthereareveryfew,itmightalsobecomeagreatchallenge.RO:So,numbermatters.AA:So,thenumberalsomatters.So,itwasthenumberthatdidn’thelp,sowhatthenumberdidwastokillthedrivebySenatorAl-Hassan.Onthatday,shecouldnotsayanything,shehadtositthereandallowSenatorYerimatoleadtheconversationontheneedforwhytheyshouldretainthat.Andsothatwaswherewemissedthatopportunity,butyouseeweparticipatedintheChildRightsActwhichwaspassedin2003andhasbeendomesticatedinabout26statesinNigeria.TheChildRightsActalsospeakstotheissueofthedefinitionofwhoisachildandordinarilyshouldaffecttheissueoftherightofthechildandshould
21
FIDAistheacronymfortheSpanishorganization“FederaciónInternacionaldeAbogadas.”ThegrouphasbeenreplicatedinNigeriaunderthename“InternationalFederationofWomenLawyers.”(“InternationalFederationofWomenLawyers(FIDA)Nigeria.”Devex.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.devex.com/organizations/international-federation-of-women-lawyers-fida-nigeria-112900)22HauwaShekarauisalawyer,women’srightsactivist,SRHRspecialist,andhumanrightsactivistbasedinAbuja,Nigeria.(“HauwaShekarau.”Twitter.AccessedMay21,2020.https://twitter.com/hauwashekarau?lang=en)
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beable to address the issueof childmarriage.But, unfortunately
about24
stateshavesignedontothatlaw,the10statesthathavenotsignedontothatlawarethestatesthatarereallythosetopstateswhoarereallyviolatingtherightofthechild.Andthey’reinthenortheasternpartofthecountry,inthenortheast,thenorthwest,andsomeoftheminthenorthcentral.So,it’sunfortunatethatthosearetheplaceswherechildmarriageisveryprevalent,
but they are theoneswhohad refused, basedon religion, basedon
culture,basedontraditiontoallowtheiryoungchildrentogrow.AndthosearethestatesthatIthinkthatweneedtodomoreworktoensurethatweliberatethegirlchildandthat’swhyyouseetheinsurgencygoesintoChibok23andcarriesallthegirlsandthegirlscamebackwithabout50-60%ofthem,oftheoneswhocameback,hadtoberepairedbecausetheywere
violated, theywere sexually abused. And that’s why the state has a
role to
playbecausesomeofthethingsthatthestateacceptsduringpeacetimecanhaveaveryhugeimplicationinwartime.Ifyouallowpeopletomarrykidsat8,9,10yearsold,inwartimepeoplewillseeitasnormalandtheywilljustdowhattheyaredoinginpeacetime.Thisisempirical,
it’sevidencethatweseeinallthewarplacesfromSierraLeonetoLiberiatowhereweareinNigeria.RO:
I imagine, I can’t imagine how these things happen and continually
getperpetuated without questioning. So, I just wonder how, your
engagements
forinstance,mighthaveimpactedyourfeministacademicworkoractivism?AA:Well,inalotofways.BeforeIjoinedacademia,Ihadbeenwritingalotanditwaseveninteresting,onthedayIwentformyinterview,thatthepeoplewhowereinterviewingsaidtomethattheyhadreadalotofmybooks,particularlyonwomen’srightsandwhathaveyou.Soforme,comingintothissystem,Iknowalotofpeoplehadaskedme,“DoyouwanttobeaConstitutionallawyeroryouwanttobeGenderandtheLaw?”andIsaid“Itdoesn’tmakemea
lesserperson, the fact that you specialize in tax lawandyou think
tax is
astronger…isahardlawandyouthinkgenderis-”andIsaidtome,“Genderisaharderlawthaneventhetaxlaw.”Sowhatthishashelpedmetodoisalsotofurtherstrengthenmywork,mostofthewritingsthatIdo,theyareeitheronwomeninpoliticalparticipation,decisionmaking,climatechangeasitrelatestogender,theissueofconflict,howdoesitrelatewithgender?Howdoesitintersectwiththeissueofclimate,migration,trafficking,andallofthat?So,joiningthisareahadhelpedmetobeabletoconnectthoseissuesthatIwouldprobablyhavetakenalonewhereI’vecreatedaveryintersectionforwhyweneedtodomoreworktoensurethatthereisgenderjusticeinthesociety.SoIteachGenderandtheLaw,andit’soneofthecoursesthatItrytoencourageasmanystudentsaspossibletoattend,todo,becauseIfeelthatoneofthethingsthatweneedtodoistotreatissuesof
23
ChibokisalocalgovernmentareaofBornoState.(“ChibokSchoolgirlsKidnapping.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping)
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genderequalityfromschoolsothatpeoplewhoarepassingthroughtheUniversitysowearenothearingaboutgenderequalityorwomen’srightsforthefirsttimewhenyouareapolicymaker,butyouhavehadtheopportunityofdiscussingitinclass,youhavehadtheopportunityofresearchinginthatarea.So,Ialsoteachthemhumanrightslawandoneoftheareasofhumanrightslaw,whichseemstohavealotofstudentswantingtodoit,sowehavegender,women’srights,rightsofwomenasoneofthetopicsinthecurriculum.So,meaningthatwealsohavetheopportunityofspeakingtomorestudentsinthatregard.So,
I think,byand large, thishashelped inmywritingsand I’vedonea lot in
termsofensuring that the conversation on gender equality is put on
the table, particularly
inNigeria.AndI’malsoamemberoftheGlobalAlliance,FeministAllianceforRights,whichisbeingcoordinatedby
theCenter forWomenandLaw inUniversity inNewJersey,
inRutgersUniversity.So,IalsobelongtotheAfricanFeministForumandalsotheNigerianFeministForum,andIalsoconveneinoneofthemostvibrantfeministplatformsinNigeriawherewehaveallfeministscollectivelycomeintoit.Fromthatplatform,we’vedonealotofthingsintermsofaddressingtheissueandwehavenotonlyfeministswithin,butwehave
feminists in diaspora. And what we have used that to do is to put
together
thecollectivevoicesofwomenwhobelieveinafeministworldtotrytointervene,andwehaveintervened
in several issues to the extent that because of the work we do the
PunchNewspaperhadtopulldowntheireditorialbecausewewroteaprotesttosaywhatyouhave
put forward in Punch Newspaper is discriminatory. As we speak the
GuardianNewspaperispullingdownaneditorialtheywroteabouttheBBCdocumentaryandtheirownanalysisofwhattheBBCdidn’tdorightandwherewenoticedthattheiranalysisisnotinfavorofgenderequalityorwomenwhohavebeenharassedbytheirlecturers,wewrotetothemandthey’reaskingus-
theydidarejoinder-andthey’reaskingus foraconversation. So, we’ve
had situations where we jointly address issues of women
inpolitics.AwomanhadrunforSpeakershipoftheHouse,wehadgivenherthroughthatplatformthesolidaritythatshedesires.Recently,aboutninewomenhadbeenappointedtobecomecommissionersinKwaraState,whichwasthefirsttimewe’rehaving56%ofthe
nominees of any government in this country to bewomen and therewas
a lot
ofbacklash,sowestoodforthewomen,weworkedwiththemallthroughtheir…RO:Campaign?AA:No,no,withtheirinterviewswiththeHouseofAssembly.Andtoday,thosewomenwillbethefirstsetof56%womennomineesthatwehaveeverhadinthecountry.So,wehadalsogivensupporttothehe-for-sheGovernorwhohadnominatedthewomen.So,byandlarge,
it has been like a collective voice and it’s the same group that is
convening thenational conversation to define the lives of women in
Nigeria. We intend to have a
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communique24onthethirdday,andsubmitthatcommuniquetotheHouseofAssembly,NationalAssemblyonwhattheNigerianwomenwant,soforus,inaway,it’smoreoflesslikewomencallingforarevolutionthatwillbetterthelivesofwomen,thatwillliberatethelivesofwomen.We’retiredoflamentations,we’retiredofpromisesthatareneverkeptbythegovernmentoftheday,we’retiredofthelivesofwomen,thedeathsofwomenforoffencesthattheydon’tcommit,andwedon’twanttopretendasifwearenotfeelingthisfromthem.Wewanttoconfrontthegovernmentaboutit,wewanttoinsistthattherightsofwomenmustbeproperlyprotectedinthiscountryandthat’swhywethinkthatthatconversation
is important. So,we’reworking towardsanational
conversationandalsobuildingawomen’smovementinthiscountry.Goodenough,theUNwomenarealsofallingin
line in that regardwith the spotlight initiative that has been
launched globally.
So,Nigeriaissupportingaprocesswherebuildingbecomesverycritical.Ithinkallovertheworldwe
have realized that if there are no alliances bywomen across
country,
intra-country,willnotbeabletoachieveasocietythatisfreefromanyformofdiscriminationagainstwomen.SoNigerianwomenarealsomovinginthatregard,wehaveaveryvibrantgroup
of women in Nigeria Association who understand the issue. We have
vibrantindividualswhoarecommittedtoensuringthatwomen'sissuesareatthefrontburnerofthethingsthatwedointhecountry.So,whatwethenneedtodoistobringallthesevoicestogetherasonevoice.WehaveahugehistoryofAbaWomen25riots,wehaveahugehistoryofwhatMadamTinubu26didontaxissue,wehaveahugehistoryofthePelewuras27,we
24Acommuniqueisanofficialannouncementorstatement,usuallyonemadetothemedia.(“Communique.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communiqu%C3%A9)
25
TheAbaWomen’sRiots,alsoknownastheWomen’sWar,wasaperiodofunrestinBritishNigeriainNovemberof1929.Itwascausedbyacombinationoffactors:theprotestagainsttheWarrantChiefs,theintroductionofnewtaxes,andincreasinglylowerpricesofagriculturalproducts.ThewomenriotedforanendofthewarrantchiefsystemandanappointmentofindigenousleadersasclanheadsasopposedtoBritishfigureheads.TherevoltresultedintheresignationofseveralWarrantChiefsandtheappointmentofwomentoserveonNativeCourts.Perhapsmostsignificantly,theriotsarewidelyregardedasthestartoftheemergenceofpan-Africananti-colonialnationalism.(“Women’sWar.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_War)26MadamTinubu,bornEfunporoyeOsuntinubuOlumosa,wasapoliticallysignificantfigureinNigerianhistoryduetoherroleasapowerfularistocrat,businesstycoon,andslavetraderinNigeria–bothbeforeandaftercolonialism.Shewasshrewd,ambitious,widelyrespected,andheldenormouseconomicpoweracrossWesternAfrica.Shewasbornin1805anddiedin1887.(Foster,Hannah.“MadamEfunroyeTinubu(CA.1805-1887).”BlackPast.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/tinubu-madam-efunroye-ca-1805-1887/)27AlimotuPelewurawasaChiefandNigeriantraderwholedtheMarketWomen’sAssociation,anadvocacygroupformarketwomen.ShewasalsooneofHerbertMacaulay’smostvitalpoliticalallies.Forcontext,MacaulaywasamalepoliticianwidelyconsideringthefounderofNigeriannationalism.Shewasbornin1865anddiedin1951.(“AlimotuPelewura.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimotu_Pelewura)
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have a huge history of Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti.28 Sowe are
not--Hajia Sawaba,29
theQueenAminas--,soitisnotnew,womenorganizingisapartofthehistoryofNigeria.Soitisnot
anew thingand that’swhywehavea strongMarketWomenAssociation, if
anymarketwomenassociationsaysthataparticulargovernorwillnotbecomeagovernoritissomethingthatthey]cando.Sothatwethenwanttodoistostrengthenthosegroupingsacrossthecountrytobeabletonegotiatefortherightsofwomen.SothatwemovedfromlamentationandbeggingtoassertingandaffirmingourpresenceaswomeninNigeria,ourpresenceaswomenwhocanshifttheculturebecauseIthinkoneofthegreatestthingsthatwecandoistoachievethecultureshiftfromwherewearetowherewewanttobeasagroupofwomeninNigeria.Andthere’salotofworkgoingoninthatregardandIthinktheworkiseasybecausethere’salotoforganizingaround.Recently,IthinkawomanpassedoninMaiduguriandthiswasawomanwhothoughtthatherhusbandwaswronglyaccusedofbeingpartoftheinsurgency.Andtherewereaboutlike1500peoplethatwerewronglypickedforthatandwhatshedidwastobuildamovementofwomentoinsistandtofight,tosaysomeofourchildrendon’tknowanythingaboutit,theywerejustbeingarrestedbysoldiers
for offences that theydidn’t- somypoint is that the spirit and
conviction
andcommitmentofNigerianwomentoorganizeisreallyverystrong.WehavetheUmuAdainthesoutheast,it’sagroupingofwomenthathasbeentherefromtimeimmemorial.Sowhatwe’regoingtodoisexploreallthesegroupingsandassociationstoformaformidableforceofNigerianwomentobeabletodefinethekindofelectionsthatwehave,whowewanttobeinthatelection,tofindthekindofcountrythatwewant,whowewanttoruleustohaveabetterNigeriathatweprayandhopefor.RO:Wonderful.Andthatwilljusttakeusstraightintothenextquestion,youstartedto
talkaboutclimatechange,what is thatconnectionbetween
feminism,women,andclimatechange?AA:Well,climatechangeisdefiningtheworld,meaningthatit’salsodefiningourgeneralexistencebecausewearealreadyexperiencingalotofchangesintemperaturesandalotofchangesinthesociety,whichisattributedtotheoldconversationaboutcarbonandallofthat.Now,foruswomen,becauseourlivelihoodsalsodependonoursurroundingandourenvironment.Alotofwomeninruralcommunitiesusethefirewoodforfoodthattheymake
and of course the trees are no longer there because of climate
change and alsobecause the societyhad takenover
theplaceswherewewere supposed tohave trees,
28ChiefFunmilayoRansome-KutiwasaNigerianeducator,politicalcampaigner,women’srightsactivist,andaristocrat.ShewasalsothefirstfemalestudenttoattendAbeokutaGrammarSchool.Shewasbornin1900anddiedin1978.(“FunmilayoRansome-Kuti.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funmilayo_Ransome-Kuti)29GamboSawabawasaNigerianwomen’srightsactivist,politician,philanthropist,andelectedleaderofthenationalwomen’swingoftheNorthernElementProgressiveUnion.Shewasbornin1933anddiedin2001.(“GamboSawaba.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambo_Sawaba)
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greens grow,becauseof thebadmanagement in the societybecause the
system isnotforward looking to be able to know that we need to
preserve the greens for
bettersustainability.Now,withinallthis,womenarecaughtinit,someuninformedaboutwhattodo,buttheyarequitepowerfulinchanging,inaddressingandmitigatingtheeffectofclimatechange.Butunfortunately,thesocietyisnottargetingthisgroupofpeopletobeabletoaddresstheimpactofclimatechange.IfyoulookatNigeriafromtheSahel,30theLakeChadconversationaboutwaterandallofthat.Inalltheseconversations,womenhaveaverycriticalroletoplayandthat’salsowhatleadstoconversationsaroundmigrationsomepeoplehavetomovefromaplacetoanotherinsearchoffood,insearchoflivelihood,insureofevenfarmlandthathasbeentakenoverfromthem.Andso,thereisaconnectionbetween
the conversation about women’s rights, gender equality, climate
change,migration,conflict,sothere’sanintersectionthatconnectsallthisconversationtogether.Andthatifwedon’taddresstheclimate,ifwedon’tlookattheroleofthedecisionsthatwomencanmakewithclimate,ifwedon’tprioritizeit,there’sapossibilitythatwewillnotbeabletoaddresstheeffectofclimate.Ifwomenconstitutethebulkofpeoplewhomanagelifeloadandtheydon’thaveinformationaboutwhattodowiththeclimate,whenthere’srain,whattodowiththeclimate,toaddresserosion,andallofthat.Ironically,fromthestudiesthatwehavehad,wealsoknowthatindigenousknowledgeofwomencanbeveryusefulinmitigatingtheeffectsofclimatechange.Andifwefailtotapintothatknowledgeofwomen,wemightnotbeabletoaddresstheproblemandtheeffectofclimatechangeparticularlyinthecommunities.RO:Thankyou,Ithinkit’sgettingclearernow.So,nextquestionI’djustlikeyoutospeaktothisrelationshipbetweenfeministscholarshipandactivism.AA:Well,feministscholarshipforme,it’salsoaformofactivisminthesensethatfeministacademics
have actually defined the conversations and the boundaries in
feministdiscussions.Whatfeministscholarshipdoesistoprovidethepowerandthetheoreticalbaseuponwhichfeminismisviewed.Whatitdoestofuelfeministactivisminamannerthat
you draw your strength from, the writings of others to be able to
define
yourinterventionasanactivist.So,therearefeministscholarswhoalsoderive,forexampleifIwritefromtheworkIdo,someaningthatIwritefrom…RO:Legalperspectives?AA:Legalperspectives,socialperspectives.Meaningthat,Iamnotafeministscholarwhositsthereanddoestheories.Iwritenotasatourist,butalso,it’sacombinationofactivism,
30
TheSahelisanecoclimaticandbiogeographiczoneoftransitionbetweentheSaharatotheNorthandtheSudanianSavannatotheSouth.ItstretchesalongthecentrallatitudesofNorthAfricafromtheAtlanticOceantotheRedSea.(“Sahel.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahel)
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andwehaveseenquiteanumberoffeministscholarshipwritingfromthatangle,fromnotwhatwethink,butfromwhatwehaveactedandwhatwehaveseen.Tosaythisishow-andIthinkthatthat’swhatweneedtobuildmoreon,becausebeforeit’salwaysbeenthescholarsareon
this sideand theactivistson theother side. So, the
connectionofbothfeminist scholarship and activismwould give us a
good blend so thatwe are not
onlyspeakingtheory,wearealsospeakingreality.Becausewhattheactivistswouldbringinistheactivism,
so there’s aneed for connection. Soeven if theactivist
isnotwriting, it’simportant for the scholars to study the activists
and see how that impacts on
thescholarship.Ihopethat’s...RO:So,Ithinkit’sjustaboutthethingsthatoureyeshaveseenandourhandshavehandled,wehaveROandAA:experiencedit.AA:So,itgivesamorepotentreadingtopeoplethatarecomingbehindwhoarereadingyourwork.Irememberthatthewritingsoftheinitialfeministsintheearlyworldwerebasedalsoontheirexperiencesofmaybeareportthattheyhaveseenonaparticularissue.Andthat’swhyyouhavepeoplelikeHilaryCharlesworth,31RebeccaCook,32andawholelotofthem.Andalsoofcoursefromthisside,andthat’swhyitwaseasywhenthetheoriesfrom
theWesternworldwere not sounding like theAfrican contexts, then
theAfricanfeministshadcometosay“No,youarenotspeakingforus.”Sothat’swhytheexperienceandtheactivismisimportanttobeabletoviewthecontextbecauseyes,thebackground,theideologyisclearabouttheissuesofmarginalizationandexclusionofwomen,butthecontext
could be different, how exclusion and marginalization would
manifest in
theUnitedStatesofAmericawouldbedifferentfromhowitwouldmanifestintheDRC,theCongo
or other places, and thatwaswhy therewere conversations
aboutwhether theWestern conversation about feminism suits well. And
so that’s why there
aredevelopmentsaroundtheWesternfeminismandtheAfricanfeminism,butIthinkthattheideology
is still remained the same, the contextmight be different, but
thewritings of
31
HilaryCharlesworthisanAustralianfeministinternationallawscholarwithover6,950citations.(“HilaryCharlesworth.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Charlesworth)32RebeccaCookisaCanadianinternationalhumanrightslawyerwithaspecificfocusinthehumanrightsofwomen.(“RebeccaCook.”UniversityofTorontoFacultyofLaw.AccessedMay21,2020)https://www.law.utoronto.ca/faculty-staff/full-time-faculty/rebecca-cook)
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peoplelikeSaraLongwe,33peoplelikeOyewunmiOyeronke,34BolanleAwe,35youcanstillsee
that there’s no fundamental difference in terms of the background
ideologicalconversation, let’s take for example, Rebecca
Cookwriting on sexual and reproductiverights and Bolanle
Awe’swriting on sexual and reproductive rights. Both of them
stillagreedonthesameissues,butthecontextsmightbedifferent,aparticularcontextmighthaveacceptedconversationsaroundabortion,whiletheothercontexthasnotacceptedconversations
on abortion, based on tradition, religion, and what have you, but
theunderliningprinciplesremain. I think thatbothsideshavebeenable
to learn
fromoneanother,andthatcanalsobeseeninsomeoftheregionalinstrumentsthatcameout.Forexample,whentheCEDAW36cameout,theAfricanssaid“Well,therearealltheissuesthattheCEDAWdidn’ttalkabout,theCEDAWdidn’ttalkaboutviolenceagainstwomen,whichisveryfundamentaltoAfricans,theCEDAWforgottotalkabouttheissueofwidows’rights,whichisfundamentalthoughtheCEDAWtalkedaboutruralwomen,butitdidn’ttalkaboutwidows’rights,whichisfundamentaltotheAfricanpeople.”TheCEDAWdidnottalkaboutdesertedwomen,whichisaseriousissueinAfricabecausealotofpeopleareabandoned,buttheAfricanProtocol37tookitintocognizanceallthoseissuesthattheCEDAWdidnottalk
about. And it becomes a stronger document than the CEDAW. But the
underlyingprincipleofboththeCEDAWandtheAfricanProtocolstillremainsthesame.RO:
I thinkyouactuallybegan to talk aboutmynextquestion,which is really
tounderstandAfricanfeminism.WhatisAfricanfeminism?AA:Well,Africanfeminismisakindof
feminismthat looksatwomen’smarginalizationand exclusion and
discriminations that women suffer from the context of Africa,
thatbelievesthatthepatriarchalnormsinAfricacouldbestrongerthanthenormsinanyother
33
SaraLongweisaZambianconsultantongenderanddevelopmentanddescribesherselfasaradicalfeministactivist.SheservedasthechairmanofFEMNET,alsoknownastheAfricanWomen’sDevelopmentandCommunicationNetwork,from1997to2003.FEMNETworkstoaidNGOsthatcontributetoAfricangenderdevelopment.SheisalsotheauthoroftheLongweFrameworkforGenderAnalysis.(“SaraHlupekileLongwe.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Hlupekile_Longwe)34OyeronkeOyewunmiisaNigeriangenderscholarandSociologyprofessor.Herliteraryworkcentersaroundtheintersectionbetweenpostcolonialism,gender,andnon-Westerncultures.(“OyeronkeOyewumi.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyeronke_Oyewumi)35BolanleAweisaNigerianoralhistoryprofessor.(“BolanleAwe.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolanle_Awe).SeealsoherinterviewwiththeGlobalFeminismsProject.36CEDAWistheCommitteeontheEliminationofDiscriminationAgainstWomen.(“OutcomeofCEDAWReviewofNigeria:MoreActionNeededtoImplementtheWPSAgenda.”Women’sInternationalLeagueforPeaceandFreedom.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.wilpf.org/outcome-of-cedaw-review-of-nigeria-greater-action-needed-to-implement-the-wps-agenda/)37TheAfricanProtocol,alsoknownastheMaputoProtocol,isaninternationalhumanrightscampaignestablishedbytheAfricanUnionin2003thatwentintoeffectin2005.Itguaranteescomprehensiverightstowomen,includingtherighttovote,socialandpoliticalequalitywithmen,increasedbodilyautonomy,andmarkedanendtofemalegenitalmutilation.(“MaputoProtocol.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maputo_Protocol)
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place.Andsofeministlearningandthinkingmustrespondtothatendemicnatureofthepatriarchalnorm.Andbecausethepatriarchalnormhasmanifestedindifferentways.SoAfricanfeminismistakingthiscontextascriticaltoaddressingtheproblemofwomenandgirlsinAfrica.RO:
Do you see any, because youmentioned the word ideology, do you see
anyideological differences between western feminism perceptions and
Africanfeminismperspectives?AA:Ithinkittermsofideology,Ithinktheunderliningfactorismarginalization,exclusion,discrimination.
And if those are the three keyswords that runs to affirm the
feministideology,
Ireallydon’tseeanydifferencebetweenwhataRebeccaCookwouldsayandwhatIwouldsay,orwhatRadhikaCoomaraswamy38willsayorwhatIwillsay.ButIthinkwhat
will be different is the context within which I would say it. There
are a lot
ofmanifestationsofdiscriminationinAfricathatmightbedifferentfromwhathappensinthewesternworld.Therearealotofmanifestationsofexclusionthatwhenyoudescribeittoawesternfeminist,mightthink“Ohwe'vepassedthatlevel.”So,thecontextsaredifferentandtherearesomethattheywillsay,andwewillsay,“Areyouguysstilldealingwiththat?”So,mypointisthatthedangerofthatdichotomyishavinga“weandthem.”Anda“weandthem”wouldlikelynotbeideologicalbutitwouldbecontextual.RO:Sonext,wheredoyouseethepointthatyourworkintersectswiththewomen'smovement?Forinstance,maybeyouwanttolookatyourworkinthiscountryandthenglobally?AA:
For example, I was recently appointed to the Global Feminist
Movement as
therepresentativeofAfricaandwehadameetinginAddis,about2weeksago,andwhenIspoke,Inoticedthatoneofthemsaid“Oh,youwereverydeepinyourconversation.”AndI
thought inmymind that probablywhat Iwas talking about --wewere
talking aboutwomen inconflictsettings--andIwastalkingabout the
issuesofmigrationandclimatechangeasIsaidearlierandtheywerefindingthatconnectionquiteinteresting,itwasaconnectionthatwasnotmadeinitiallywhentherewereconversationsaboutsexualandreproductiverights,buttheconnectionIaroseasaresultofourworkinAfrica.So,thereare
areas that, for example, areas of conflictwhere theAfrican
feministsmight have
abroaderknowledgebecausetheyfeelit,becausetheycanseeitandtheycanunderstanddifferentmanifestations
of it than theWestern feminists. But there’s always a place
ofconvergence,sofromtheworkIdo,fillinginthatinformationbecomesverycriticaland
38
RadhikaCoomaraswamyisaSriLankanlawyer,diplomat,andhumanrightsadvocatewhoservedastheSpecialRepresentativeforChildrenandArmedConflictintheUnitedNations.(“RadhikaCoomaraswamy.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhika_Coomaraswamy)
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veryimportant.We’regoingfortheICPD2539verysoonandsowhatwe’retryingtodoisconvenea
global conversationbetweenAfrican,Asian, theAmericans, and
thewesternworldtoseewhatlessonswecanlearnandIthinkthat’swhatweneedtodomoresothatwecanunderstandhowourworkconnects,theinterconnectivityoftheworkthatwedohere
and the learnings thatwe canget to strengthen the ideology
tounderstandmoreaboutthedifferentshadesoffeminismthatweareseeingastimegoeson.RO:
And thenmaybe one of the last questions, what has been, for
instance,
theprogressionofthefeministmovementinNigeriainthelast3-4decades?AA:Well,Ithinkalothasbeendonebythewomen’smovementinthelast3-4years.Oneof
the successeshasbeen thepassageof
theViolenceAgainstPersonsProhibitionAct,which was the first time in
2015 when the government of Nigeria signed a law
thatprohibitsviolenceagainstwomenandgirlsinthecountry.TherehasalsobeentheNationalGenderPolicy,40whichwassignedontoin2007,butbecameobsoletein2015.Wehavealsobeenabletocomeupwiththesexoffendersregister,whichwasnotthere,whereyoupeoplecanbegintodouble-checkwhentheywanttoemploypeoplewhethertheperson’snamehadappearedashavingcommittedanysexualoffencesbefore.Therehasalsobeenalotintermsofwomeninterveningaroundelectorallaw,theINEC41in2015hadsignedon
to a genderpolicywhich is supportingwomenparticipationwithin INEC
itself.
Thewomen’smovementhasalsoworkedtoensurethatinstitutionsnowhavegenderpolicy.Therehasbeenalotofcollaborationandalliancebuildingbetweenwomen’smovementandtheprivatesectortotheextentthattherearealotofactivitiesthattheprivatesectorsarenowputtinginplacethatarerespondingtoissuesaroundgenderequality.Therehasalsobeenalotofchangeintermsofmediawritingswithrespecttogenderequalityissues,I’m
aware that theEFCC42 has a genderpolicy likewise so someof the
anti-corruptionagencieshavealsohadoneformofgenderpolicyortheother.Mostschoolsnow,unlikein
39
TheICDP+25istheInternationalConferenceonPopulationandDevelopment.Themostrecentconferencefocusedonsexualandreproductivehealthandrightsforwomenandgirlsglobally.(“InternationalConferenceonPopulationandDevelopment(ICPD+25).”WorldHealthOrganization.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.who.int/news-room/events/detail/2019/11/12/default-calendar/international-conference-on-population-and-development-(icpd-25))40Nigeria’sNationalGenderPolicyaimedtoenddiscrimination,ensurefundamentalhumanrightstoallpeopleregardlessofgenderandcircumstance,andprotectthehealth,socio-economic,andpoliticalwell-beingofallcitizens.(“NationalGenderPolicy.”NCAA.AccessedMay20,2020.http://www.aacoalition.org/national_policy_women.htm)41INECistheIndependentNationalElectoralCommissioninNigeriaandwasformedastheelectoralbodythatoverseeselections.(“IndependentNationalElectoralCommission.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_National_Electoral_Commission)42TheEFCCistheEconomicandFinancialCrimesCommission,aNigerianlawenforcementagencywhosedutiesincludeinvestigatingfinancialcrimesandcorruption.(“EconomicandFinancialCrimesCommission.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_Financial_Crimes_Commission)
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27
5yearsago,nowhavethesexualharassmentpolicies,someofthemnowhadcreatedtheCenterforGenderStudies,whichwedidn’tusetohaveinthiscountrybefore.So,byandlarge,alotofprogresshasbeenmade.Andifyoulookatbetweenlike1999whenNigeriaenteredintothiscivilianspaceandnow,there’sbeenquiteanumberoflaws,particularlyatthestatelevels,maybeveryfewatthenational,butatthestatelevelstherehasbeenawholelotofnewlaws.Inmylastcount,therewereabout35differentlawsthathavebeenpassedatonetimeortheother.So,itlookslikelawmakinghasbecomeoneoftheavenuesthatNigeriaasacountryisusingtoaddressgenderequality.Nowwhatwethenneedtoworkmoreonishowtomakethoselawseffectivesothatitcanreallydefineandchangethelivesofwomen.RO:Okay,Ithinkthat’saverygreatevaluationofhowthingshavebeeninthelastfew
decades, but then what would be your evaluation of the development
offeminismingeneralinNigeria?AA:Well, I
thinkoneofthechallengesthatwe’rehavingasacountryisthatIthinkthefeministgroupingthatwehaveisnotveryeffective.WehaveaNigerianFeministForum,but
the Forum has not been very effective and I think it’s due to lack
of properunderstanding also by the groupwho is the Secretariat of
the Forum, becausewe
areaccusedthatwecannotachieveafeministcommunitywhenwedon’topenthedoorsoffeminismtoallowasmanypeopleaspossibletobeabletoenter,learningtheideologies.Theremustbesomeminimumstandard,butwecannotclosethedoorsofideology.Peopleread,evenbecomingfeministsbyreadingandunderstandingandthinkingthat“OhIthinkthisisanideathatIwanttobepartof.”Youcanalsobecomeafeministideologue43bywhatyoudo
and someonenoticingwhat youdo and saying that youneed to be part of
thefeministmovementandallofthat.So,Ithinkwehavedone,awholelotofyearsback,“weandthem”wehadinvestedtoomuchtimeinsaying“thisisagroupofwomen’srights”“thisisagroupoffeminists.”So,Ithinkthere’saneedforustoclosethatgap.Wecannotachievea
feministworld ifwedon’t get asmanypeopleaspossible
tounderstand,wecannotbespeakingtoourselves.Ifwecontinuespeakingtoourselves,wewillnothaveafeministcommunity.A‘community’isacommunitywhoisreadytoconfrontpeoplewiththeideologiesandwinthepeopleover.Themorefeministsweget,thelikelihoodofhavinga
feministsociety, the likelihoodofhavingpeople in
leadershipwhobelieve in
feministideology.So,Ithinktheproblemthatwearehavingisacountryisthatwedon’twanttoopenupfeminismtoothers.Webelievethatsomepeopleknowaboutthisandwealsodon’twanttotoleratepeople‘sweaknessesinunderstanding.Letmegiveanexampleof
43
Anideologueisastrongadvocateofaspecificideology(“Ideologue.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideologue)
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28
what I’m trying to say. The feminist platform has had
conversations on, for
example,LGBTQ.Andyougetalotofpeoplecometosay,“Weshouldnotbediscussingthat,Idon’tthinkit’safeministdiscussion.”Nowforme,IwillnotshutdownsuchapersonbutratherIwill
put an argument on “Whydo you thinkwe shouldnot discuss it?”
andproffer
agreaterargumentonwhyweshoulddiscussit.IfIamabletoconvincethepersonIhavewononemorevoteforthefeministmovementbutifI’mnotabletotoleratethepersonthat
I have lost maybe a potential feminist. So, the argument has always
been thateverybody must be at the same level and I feel that you
cannot subject your
ownconsciousnesstotheconsciousnessofotherpeople.Theprocessoffeminismisaprocessoflearning,nobodywasbornafeminist,peoplegrewuptolearnfeminism.So,wemustopenuptoallowpeopletolearnandunlearnfeminism.Sothat’smyownideology,soIwillnotcondemnanybodywhoclaimstobeafeministbutwhoisnotclearabouttheideology,butrather
Iwouldsay“doyouwant toreadabookonthatsubjectmatter
thatwearediscussing?Maybewhenyoureadit,wecancomebackforfurtherdiscussion,”butIwillnotsay“Becauseyoudidn’tmeetmeatmypointofknowledge,thatmakesyoualesserperson.”
Feminism should also allow people tomake choices on areas they
think
theybelieveinwhilewetryasmuchaspossibletoconvincethemonthoseotherareasthatwethinkarenon-negotiable
inconversationsof
feminism.People’sbeliefandconversationcanbeinfluencedbyawholelotofthings,whattheysee,whattheyhear,wherethey’recomingfrom,wheretheylive,andasfeministswemustrecognizethat.Thatwomenarenot
homogeneous that we also are different and that is why we see
people speak ofdifferent strands of feminism. What that means in
particular is that there’s really
nogeneralagreement.Peoplehaveadifferentopinion,butweallhavethosethreeunderliningideologicalunderstandings.So,Iwouldaskifyousayyouareafeminist,Iwillaskyouwhatisyourunderstandingofdiscriminationagainstwomen,what
isyourunderstandingofmarginalization and exclusion ofwomen, do you
think abortion excludes the rights
ofwomen?Sothat’sthekindofconversationIwanttohavewithyouandIwouldratherbeinterestedmoreinbringingyoutooursidethaninlosingyoutotheothersidebecauseIthinkwereallyhaveawholelotofpeopleontheothersidethatwhatweneedtodoistobringthemtothisside.Orelse,itwouldjustbehavingafeministconversationwilljustbe:Oh,wewon’tbeabletogetwomenindecisionmakingonthebasisofnotbeingabletogetthemtoagreeonthetheory.NowifyoulookatSouthAfrica,forexample,SouthAfricanParliamentisoneoftheparliamentsthatpeoplecallafeministparliament,butstillyet,theyarenotallfeminists.Butwhydotheycallthemafeministparliament?Someofthemmightnotevencall
themselvesa feminist. It isbecauseof thekindofdecision that
thewomen in that parliament has been able to make in terms of
addressing
exclusion,marginalization,anddiscrimination.So,mypointisthatinacountrylikeNigeriahowdowegettothatlevelifwehavealotofassumptionsandbiasesandweexcludewomentohavea
feelandanunderstandingof the
ideology.Wearenotopeningupconversation,
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29
callingasymposiumanddirectingthesymposium44tobeabletogetsomebodytosay“Oh,todayIrealizethatthisisthewaythisconversationismade.”Thenforustokeepshuttingpeopleoutbecausetheyarenotwellgroundedwiththeideology.SoIbelongtothatschoolofthought,thatifyourideologyisgood,ifyourideologyisconvincing,throwitoutthere,let
it be debated and if you debate and your conversation won the
debate, it
furtheraffirmedthefactthatyourideologyisclearandiscorrect.RO:Thankyou.Ihopeyouwillpermitmetoaskmorequestions,thisshouldhavebeenthelastquestion,butthenanotheronecameupsoIwillasktheonethatcameupwithinyourresponse.So,religionisabigthing
inNigeriaandtherearemorewomen participants, both in the twomajor
religions, Islam and Christianity.
So,wouldyousaythatreligionhashelpedthecauseoffeminism,gender,participationinNigeria?AA:
In Nigeria, religion has not helped feminism at all, rather it has
drawn back theideology. But women within religion, we have the
feminist Muslimah who are
mostlywomenwhoarefeministsandwhattheytrytodoistoreadtheKoraninamannerthatchangestheopinionforfeministconversation.IknowthatorganizationslikeWRAPA45hasdonea
lot inthatregard.BAOBAB46 forwomen’shumanrightshasdoneawhole
lotofconversationonhowKoran reflects feminist principles. In
theChristianworld too, theCatholics for example. I have a lot of
feminist sisters who have also tried asmuch
aspossibletoreadtheBibleinamannerthatwouldespousefeministprinciples.Butstillyetthatseemstobelikeamajorareaandwhatwetrytoalsotellfeministswhoarewithinthosereligionsistoensurethatwealsohaveagoodunderstandingofthereligionandreaditinamannerthatcanbettersuitfeministdiscourse.ButinNigeriathereligionhasbeenamajorconversationandhasconstitutedmajorbacklashforfeminists.IrememberthattherewasadaythatIwasonairtospeakaboutabortionandbeforeIgotback,IstartedgettingcallsfromCatholicsandallthattosay“Whatdoyouthinkyouaretalkingabout?Isthiswhatyourfeminismisallabout?”andallofthat,soit’samajorissue.Irememberthattherewasanewspaperarticlethatpickedmeupandsaid.onthefrontpage,thatIsaid,“Ibelieve
inabortion”and theyputmynameon it.And Iwasgoing to the church in
the
44
Asymposiumisasocialgatheringinwhichideasarefreelyexchanged(“Symposium.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symposium)45WRAPAistheWomen’sRightsAdvancementandProtectionAlternativebasedinAbuja,Nigeria.Itisafemale-focusedNGOwhosemissionitistoactualizethelegalrightsofwomeninpublicandprivatespaces.ItwasrecentlyawardedaMacArthurAwardforCreative&EffectiveIntuitionsforitsanti-corruptionefforts.(“Women’sRightsAdvancementandProtectionAlternative.”MacArthurFoundation.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.macfound.org/grantees/885/)46BAOBABisanorganizationheadedbyfemalelawyersandlegalactivistswhosespecialtyliesinNigerianIslamiclaw.(“MuslimWomen’sRightsinNorthernNigeria.”WilsonCenter.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/publication/Muslim%20Women%27s%20Rights%20Northern%20Nigeria%20-%20FINAL.pdf)
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morningandIfoundalltheeldersinthechurchwerewaitingformetoaskmewhetherIreallysaidthatandwhenIwasreadytodoarejoinder.IsaidtothemthatIwasn’tgoingtodoarejoinder.Isaideverythingthatwasquoted,thattheyshouldgoandreadthefulldocumenttounderstandthecontextthatthatwassaid,butIwillnotdoarejoinder.Ifyoudon’twantmetoenterthechurch,fortunatelytherewasanotherchurchnext-door.I’llbewillingtogotochurchnext-door,whatwasimportantformewastobeable]tocometochurchforthatmorning.So,mypointisthatreligionisamajorthing.Alotoffeministssitin
the church and they get very annoyed and the religion is also very,
Christianity
forexampleandMuslimreligion,westillhaveveryfewwomenwhostandattherostrum,whotalkaboutsomeoftheseissuesso,youstillgettohearthisoldconversation.Buttherehasbeenalotofdiscussions,conversations.Thereisasidebysidemovementthatisbringingmenwhoareinreligiouscircleswithwomentotalkaboutsomeoftheseissuesaroundthereligion.Andgradually,wearealsogettingsomepastorswhoarechangingandwhoarealsoleadingfeministconversations.RO:Okay,great.So,thiswillbereallythefinal,finalquestion,maybeitmighthavealittlepart.ButIwillaskyouabigquestion,youstartedalready,evenfromtheoutset,totalkaboutconnectionsoftheworkonfeminism,activism,andgenderissuesinNigeria
andat the global level.Howdid these connections comeabout and
then,whatdotheymeanforyourwork?Andthen,haveyoubeenabletomakeasenseoutofthedifferencesandsimilaritiesinthekindsofissuesraisedonapproachestakenbyactivists,scholars,andorganizationsinresolvingtheissues?AA:Well,thereareissuesthatcomeupintheworkwedo,forexamplewehavelostliketwograntsbecauseofourstandonsexualandreflectiverights.Andunfortunately,thosegrants
are very huge grants that help to pay about 50% of the salaries of
staff of
theorganization.WhereweareaccusedofworkingwiththeCenterforReproductiveRights,whichisnotanaccusation,wedo.Whichtheyfeelareontheextremewithissuesofsexualreproductiverightsandwewereaskedtowritealettertodenounceouraffiliationwithorganizationsworking
inreproductiverightswhichsherefused.So,wehad to lose thegrants. The
global gag rule47 affected us as an organization. Some of the
groups
thatsupportedreproductiverightshavechangedtocorruptionandanticorruptionandawholelot
of other things. So, we look at what's the effect of that to the
future of the
wholeconversationofwomen’srights.It’slikeleavingtheissuebecauseIdon’tknowwhatelseIcan
speakaboutwomen’s rights ifwedon’t speakabout their sexual and
reproductiverightsbecauseit’sonemajoractual
lifethingforwomen,therighttobeabletomakea
47
TheGlobalGagRule,alsoknownastheMexicoCitypolicy,isaUnitedStatesgovernmentpolicythatblocksU.S.federalfundingforNGOsthatadvocateforthedecriminalizationofabortionortheexpansionofabortionservicesorprovideabortioncounselingorreferrals.(“MexicoCityPolicy.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_policy)
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choiceoftheirbodilyintegrity.Soinourworkwehadtoloseourfundersbecauseofourstand,
but because we are committed to what we are doing, we believe that
beingconsistentaboutourwork,andbeingknownforwhatwedo,andwhatwestandfor,it’scritical
to any other thing. So that iswhy Iwould agree that yes, thiswhole
thing
hasaffectedtheworkwedo,andIcanalsoimagineintheworkthatalotofpeopledo.Forexample,
theglobal gag rulehas affectedmoreorganizations, has
stifledorganizations’abilitytobeabletogetsupportfromtheUSandfromdonoragenciesthatworkwiththem.AndbyimplicationmeaningthatwomeninUganda,womeninNigeriawhoaccessgroupslikeMarieStopes48…MarieStopeswascloseddownhere,itwascloseddowninNigeriaandUgandaandsomeotherplaces.Sowhatitmeansisthatiftheytakesuchstepsthatwillhaveaffectwomenwhousedtohaveaccesstoabortion,thatmeanstheywon’tbeabletohaveanyonetogoto,anywheretogotoandbyimplication,morewomenwilldiebecausetheywouldhavetogotothosewhoarenotwelltrainedtodotheabortionandallthat.SoformeIthinkthatitshowsthatthesociety,becauseifthatishappeningnow,itshowsthatthesocietyisnotmovingintherightprogressiontosupporttherightsofwomenandthat’swhy
it’s important thatweneed tobuild amovement and there shouldbe
somemorealliancebuildingtobeabletoaddressthisglobally.Thebiggerorganizationsshouldbereadytosupportthesmallerorganizations.Therewillcontinuetobemoreorganizationsupportinthewomenbecausewehavesuchahugepopulationandourissueshavenotbeenaddressedenoughbytheexistingorganization.So,there’saneedforyoungpeople,astheyarealsogrowingupfasterthansomeofuswiththetechnologyandawholelotofotherthings.So,theymightactuallyhavemoreopportunitytodothethingsthatwedidn’tdotogetacrosstoasmanypeopleaspossible,morethanwecan.So,meaningthatthereisa
need for that intergenerational discussion, feminist discussion so
thatwehavemorepeople,webuildmorepeoplethatwillcontinuewiththeagendasothattheycanachievetheiragendafasterthanwecanimagine.RO:So,whatIhearyousayisthatyoufindsolidarityintheworkthatyoudoandother
organizations on the global context. So, the fact that this clamp
down onfunding is happeninghere, youalsohave
connectionswithorganizations
abroadthatmightbeexperiencingthesame.AA:Yes,sotheglobalgagruleisnotonly,theclampdownisnotonlyagainstus,wealsoknowthatthereareseveralorganizations,particularlythoseorganizationswhoworkoncorewomen’sbodilyintegrityissueswhodefinesissueofsexualandreproductiverights,who
thinks that women should have right to abortion, who canvass for
the issue ofwomen’s bodily integrity. So the clamp down is global,
itmight be feltmore in Africa
48MarieStopeswasaBritishauthor,paleobotanistandardentsupportofeugenicsandwomen’srights.Sheisknownforherworkonbirthcontrolaccess.(“MarieStopes.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Stopes)
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becausewehaveveryfewfundsandveryfewsupportersbutwhatIthinkalsoneedstobedoneisalsothatthebiggerorganizationshouldlendsupporttothesmallorganizationsastheyexperiencetheclampdown.AndIthinkIamnotseeingenoughofthat,itlookslikeeverybody’sscamperingtogettheirownsupportsowhereasmallerorganizationinAfrica,wheretheylosetheirfundinginthatregard,findingaplacethenmightbecomelikeabigproblem.So,meaningthatcouldintimidateothersandthatcouldshutdownthevoicesofothers.Forusitwasdifficult,butIthinkwearepushingthroughwithnewinnovationsandwithnewfundingcoming.Whiletheysayno,wealsoseetheUNsupportinitiativesayingyestoissuesofsexualreproductiverights.Wearealsoseeingotherorganizationssayingyes,liketheFordFoundation,49toissuesofsexualandreproductiverights.Sowhatwedois
also look and shop around to those who can support our belief,
rather than uscompromising our beliefs because we know if we
compromise it’s going to affect
themajorityofwomeninNigeria,inAfrica,andwehaveaneffectontheglobalmovementforsolidarityandliberationofwomenfromthehandsofgenderinequalityandinjusticethatwehavesufferedalltheyears.RO:Alright,sofinal,finalnow,thingsthatIhaven’taskedthatyoujustwanttospeakabout?Finalnotes.AA:Well,IthinkthatalliancebuildingisimportantforthefeministmovementtogrowandIthinkalsothattheremustbeminimumstandardsofdefiningwhowewanttobringtothefold,
butwemust alsobeveryopen todebates.Thatmightbeuncomfortable tous,
toconfrontationsthatwedon’texpectfromsomeangles,butwemustjustbeconsistentandcommittedandIthinkwithinashortperiodoftimetherealityoflifewouldmakepeopletounderstandthatfeministsolidarityisimportant,it’skeyandit’sasolutiontotheglobalproblem.RO:Allright,thankyousomuch!AA:You’rewelcome.
49TheFordFoundationisanAmericanprivatefoundationwhosemissionistoadvancethestateofhumanrightsandwelfare.(“FordFoundation.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Foundation)