Thucydides July 11, 2008 Lecture. “International Relations” What is “international relations” about? –Distinctions between insiders and outsiders –Relationships.

Thucydides

July 11, 2008 Lecture

“International Relations”

• What is “international relations” about?– Distinctions between insiders and outsiders– Relationships between insiders and outsiders

(as a group or individually)

Why start with Thucydides?

Athens – A Naval Power

Sparta – a Land Power

The Peloponnesian War

• Lasted from 431BC to 404BC

• The Athenians eventually lost

• But the whole Greek world was more or less ruined

• Thucydides thinks he can draw general lessons from the war

The history as a general reflection

– But if he who desires to have before his eyes a true picture of the events which have happened, and of the like events which may be expected to happen hereafter in the order of human things, shall pronounce what I have written to be useful, then I shall be satisfied. My history is an everlasting possession, not a prize composition which is heard and forgotten. (1.22)

“Realism”

• Thucydides is often said to be the “father” of the realist school of international relations

• What do we mean by “realism”?– The view that in “international” relations

(relations across the insiders/outsiders divide) morality is generally impotent, and considerations of interest and power rule

• Is “realism” realistic?

Is Thucydides a realist?

– The real though unavowed cause [of the war] I believe to have been the growth of the Athenian power, which terrified the Lacedaemonians and forced them into war (1.23)

The “causes” of the war

• What is the alternative to Thucydides’ assertion that “the real cause” of the war was the growth of Athenian power?

• If Thucydides is right, can we say who is to “blame” for the war?

Pericles’s Funeral Oration

The hubris of Athens

• And we shall assuredly not be without witnesses; there are mighty monuments of our power which will make us the wonder of this and of succeeding ages; we shall not need the praises of Homer … For we have compelled every land and every sea to open a path for our daring, and have everywhere planted eternal memorials of our good and bad deeds. (2.41, Jowett trans., modified)

The Athenian ideal

• Is the ideal Pericles describes attractive?

• What is the point of political life for Pericles?– Immortal fame

The Plague

The Athenian empire

The empire as a tyranny

• For what you hold is, to speak somewhat plainly, a tyranny; to take it perhaps was wrong, but to let it go is unsafe (Pericles in a later speech, 2.65)

Justice and Interest: The Mytilenian Debate

What is the relationship between interest and justice?

• Cleon: Justice and interest go together: the Mytilenians must be punished

• Diodotus: Our interests require mercy, regardless of justice

• The Athenians’ conscience: To use collective punishment is cruel and unjust; we do not feel up to it, even if our interests dictate it

Is “realism” realistic?

The Melian Dialogue

The Melian Dialogue

• We both alike know that into the discussion of human affairs the question of justice only enters where there is equal power to enforce it, and that the powerful exact what they can, and the weak grant what they must. (5.89)

Athenian arguments

• The danger of losing face: they cannot allow a small island to be free for fear of revolts among their own subjects (5.91)

• It is in the interests of the Melians to yield (5.91)

• Hope is not a plan (5.103)

• There is no dishonor in yielding to a great city like Athens (5.111.2-5)

Melian responses

• Just treatment is the best guarantee of an empire – the Athenians may be on the losin side one day

• Athens will create more enemies by enslaving the Melians

• The outcome of war is always dubious

The Outcome

• In the end, the Melians prefer to defend themselves and attempt to preserve their liberty, and after some initially successful resistance, are ultimately crushed.

The Sicilian Disaster

Is “realism” realistic?

• Does justice matter?