The past really is a different country Lesley Storey PhD & Evanthia Lyons PhD SPERI, University of Surrey.

The past really is a different The past really is a different countrycountry

Lesley Storey PhD & Evanthia Lesley Storey PhD & Evanthia Lyons PhDLyons PhD

SPERI, University of SurreySPERI, University of Surrey

Methods [1]Methods [1]

Interviews lasted between 35 minutes and 1 Interviews lasted between 35 minutes and 1 hour, 15 minutes hour, 15 minutes

Audio tape-recorded and transcribed in full Audio tape-recorded and transcribed in full Analysed using Interpretative Analysed using Interpretative

Phenomenological Analysis (IPA) (Smith, Phenomenological Analysis (IPA) (Smith, 1996). 1996).

All conducted by same researcherAll conducted by same researcher

Methods [2]Methods [2]

This paper is based on a study which This paper is based on a study which consisted of an interview based around a consisted of an interview based around a sorting task. sorting task.

This was done with two groups of British This was done with two groups of British people: British-born UK citizens of African people: British-born UK citizens of African Caribbean descent and heritage and White Caribbean descent and heritage and White UK citizens. UK citizens.

Interview StudyInterview Study

All participants were asked to choose an era or All participants were asked to choose an era or event which had been critical in shaping modern event which had been critical in shaping modern Britain and to explain why they felt it had been so Britain and to explain why they felt it had been so important. important.

They were also asked to state whether they felt They were also asked to state whether they felt that this had been a positive or negative effect. that this had been a positive or negative effect.

Time lines have been constructed to show Time lines have been constructed to show graphically the events identified.graphically the events identified.

Aim of Time Line analysisAim of Time Line analysis

The time line analysis aims to address the The time line analysis aims to address the following questions: following questions:

– To what extent is the factual history shared?To what extent is the factual history shared?– To what extent are the interpretations/readings To what extent are the interpretations/readings

of history shared?of history shared?

Time Line (All participants)Time Line (All participants) Roman Invasion Roman Invasion William the Conqueror William the Conqueror Industrial Revolution Industrial Revolution Empire Empire The Victorians The Victorians Second World War Second World War Post war non-White immigration/WindrushPost war non-White immigration/Windrush 60s Black Civil Rights 60s Black Civil Rights Murder of Blair Peach Murder of Blair Peach Thatcherism Thatcherism 80s ‘race’ riots80s ‘race’ riots Murder of Stephen Lawrence Murder of Stephen Lawrence New Labour Victory New Labour Victory

Time Line Time Line (Black participants)(Black participants)

William the ConquerorWilliam the Conqueror Industrial Revolution Industrial Revolution EmpireEmpire The VictoriansThe Victorians Post WW2 non-White immigration / Windrush Post WW2 non-White immigration / Windrush 60s Black Civil Rights60s Black Civil Rights World Cup victory World Cup victory Murder of Blair PeachMurder of Blair Peach Thatcherism Thatcherism 80s ‘race’ riots 80s ‘race’ riots Murder of Stephen Lawrence Murder of Stephen Lawrence

Time Line Time Line (White Participants)(White Participants)

Roman InvasionRoman Invasion Second World War Second World War Social changes of 60s & 70sSocial changes of 60s & 70s New Labour Victory (1997)New Labour Victory (1997)

Shared past?Shared past?

Common events identified by both White and Black, similar Common events identified by both White and Black, similar eras are identified but the significance of the era is eras are identified but the significance of the era is different.different.

For the White sample we have a timeframe covering the For the White sample we have a timeframe covering the full chronological period up to the present day picking full chronological period up to the present day picking economic, political and military events. economic, political and military events.

For the Black sample, the emphasis is far more on recent For the Black sample, the emphasis is far more on recent events and specifically events which have occurred since events and specifically events which have occurred since the large-scale post-war immigration of Black people into the large-scale post-war immigration of Black people into the UK, the events are also far more personal with two the UK, the events are also far more personal with two murder victims being mentioned by name. murder victims being mentioned by name.

To what extent is the factual history To what extent is the factual history shared?shared?

[1 – social changes of the ’60s][1 – social changes of the ’60s] V – umm the 60s, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and all thatV – umm the 60s, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and all that I – so the sort of effect of that American change on on? And what sort of changes do you I – so the sort of effect of that American change on on? And what sort of changes do you

feel it made?feel it made? V – well, in like at school the history work that we did do was like where like the Black V – well, in like at school the history work that we did do was like where like the Black

people had to sit at the back of the bus and wasn’t given the right to go into places where people had to sit at the back of the bus and wasn’t given the right to go into places where White people were or anywhere and I think that was completely wrong because they was White people were or anywhere and I think that was completely wrong because they was all uman just skin colour that’s different that’s it, so I think I don’t even know how I would, all uman just skin colour that’s different that’s it, so I think I don’t even know how I would, how I would even respond if it was like that now, but probably be no difference if it hadn’t how I would even respond if it was like that now, but probably be no difference if it hadn’t changed but thank God for thatchanged but thank God for that

I – so in a sense you feel like you’re personally benefiting from that time period?I – so in a sense you feel like you’re personally benefiting from that time period? V – yeah I think every every Black person wouldV – yeah I think every every Black person would

vv DPR – I mean I was I was perhaps doesn’t feel like an event but the sort of late 60s 70s DPR – I mean I was I was perhaps doesn’t feel like an event but the sort of late 60s 70s

umm feel of change in society is probably something that I see as quite important, maybe umm feel of change in society is probably something that I see as quite important, maybe that’s associated with err what I said earlier about perhaps what I feel is a lessening in that’s associated with err what I said earlier about perhaps what I feel is a lessening in class, broadening in class, broadening in tolerance in some ways umm in limited ways actually but umm and tolerance in some ways umm in limited ways actually but umm and perhaps I mean you know associated with that some of the breakdowns in terms of umm perhaps I mean you know associated with that some of the breakdowns in terms of umm roles of the traditional family, increasing acceptance of umm not needing to get married, roles of the traditional family, increasing acceptance of umm not needing to get married, not needing to have the 2 children I think it’s quite an important change in societynot needing to have the 2 children I think it’s quite an important change in society

To what extent is the factual history To what extent is the factual history shared?shared?

[2 – WW2][2 – WW2] Similarly the Second World War/Immediate post-war era was mentioned by both Black Similarly the Second World War/Immediate post-war era was mentioned by both Black

and White but with different elements being identified as important.and White but with different elements being identified as important.

DPR – well I suppose the one that immediately jumps to mind is the second world war DPR – well I suppose the one that immediately jumps to mind is the second world war and the enormous effect that had on my parents’ generationand the enormous effect that had on my parents’ generation

I – mm hmmI – mm hmm DPR – umm in terms of umm… …both in terms of what they’ve said and people of their DPR – umm in terms of umm… …both in terms of what they’ve said and people of their

generation have said generation have said in terms of political change in the way umm society was thought in terms of political change in the way umm society was thought about but also a sort of a bringing together in terms of joint hardship type thingabout but also a sort of a bringing together in terms of joint hardship type thing umm…in umm…in my own personal experience umm…an event ….my own personal experience umm…an event ….

VV

CT – yeah definitely, the war itself I think that umm the influx of more immigrants, CT – yeah definitely, the war itself I think that umm the influx of more immigrants, definitely umm yeah take it back absolutely….I suppose it’s kind of hard, I sppose it’s definitely umm yeah take it back absolutely….I suppose it’s kind of hard, I sppose it’s things like that I guess…things like that I guess…

Themes (Black participants)Themes (Black participants)

Theme 1 - Race-specific events/eras with racial Theme 1 - Race-specific events/eras with racial consequences.consequences.

Theme 2 - Race neutral or generic events from which Theme 2 - Race neutral or generic events from which racial consequences or implications are drawn.racial consequences or implications are drawn.

Theme 3 - Non racially-oriented events with no Theme 3 - Non racially-oriented events with no race-specific consequences.race-specific consequences.

Theme 1 - Race-specific events/eras Theme 1 - Race-specific events/eras with racial consequences.with racial consequences.

CT – yeah, it was I CT – yeah, it was I mean it actually shows how the relationship mean it actually shows how the relationship between white and black people has changedbetween white and black people has changed, I mean it was so overtly , I mean it was so overtly racist and now it has changed and the amount of Black people who racist and now it has changed and the amount of Black people who were killed it was so explicit and up until the death of Stephen were killed it was so explicit and up until the death of Stephen Lawrence, I think it has been a watershed because I think it was, I Lawrence, I think it has been a watershed because I think it was, I think that white society’s consciousness has been raised umm and I think that white society’s consciousness has been raised umm and I think that has a lot to do with just time that the white kids these days think that has a lot to do with just time that the white kids these days because they mix more and interact more and are less parochial I because they mix more and interact more and are less parochial I think, because I know when you go further out in the country people think, because I know when you go further out in the country people are more parochial, they just don’t integrate, they just don’t have any are more parochial, they just don’t integrate, they just don’t have any understanding of the other and so people in mixed marriages and so understanding of the other and so people in mixed marriages and so on are not, it’s much more of a normal thing now at least in some parts on are not, it’s much more of a normal thing now at least in some parts of London and some parts of England so I think because of that it’s of London and some parts of England so I think because of that it’s forcing people to challenge the old way of looking at things as well so I forcing people to challenge the old way of looking at things as well so I think yeah I think the death of Stephen Lawrence I think was quite a think yeah I think the death of Stephen Lawrence I think was quite a big umm social event I think.big umm social event I think.

Theme 2 - Race neutral or generic events Theme 2 - Race neutral or generic events from which racial consequences or from which racial consequences or

implications are drawnimplications are drawn II – ok, and thinking about sort of Britain now in the early – ok, and thinking about sort of Britain now in the early

part of the 21st century, if you had to pick either a time part of the 21st century, if you had to pick either a time period or a particular event from the past that’s been sort of period or a particular event from the past that’s been sort of absolutely you know pivotal in making Britain what it is absolutely you know pivotal in making Britain what it is now, which would you pick?now, which would you pick?

EDED - … - …industrial revolutionindustrial revolution II –mm hmm why would you pick that one? –mm hmm why would you pick that one? EDED - ….the period leading up to it is when the institutions - ….the period leading up to it is when the institutions

came into being, banks, insurance, the came into being, banks, insurance, the slave trade,slave trade, institutions have developed forging a sort of a can-do institutions have developed forging a sort of a can-do mentality, umm we rule the world type attitude and it laid it mentality, umm we rule the world type attitude and it laid it laid the foundations for the institutions that are still running laid the foundations for the institutions that are still running and still umm still running the show now, so yeah that and still umm still running the show now, so yeah that would be the sort of thing, that would be the era.would be the sort of thing, that would be the era.

Theme 3 - Non racially-oriented events Theme 3 - Non racially-oriented events with no race-specific consequenceswith no race-specific consequences

II – ok, and umm you talked a bit about things that have – ok, and umm you talked a bit about things that have gone on in the past, if you had to pick from history or even gone on in the past, if you had to pick from history or even more recent events one either an event or a period of time more recent events one either an event or a period of time that you feel has been critical in making Britain the country that you feel has been critical in making Britain the country it is now, which would you choose?it is now, which would you choose?

SHSH - .. - ..umm the industrial revolutionumm the industrial revolution because although all of because although all of the you know many other periods could you know deal with the you know many other periods could you know deal with things that evoke more emotion, umm the very fact that we things that evoke more emotion, umm the very fact that we got division of labour, 9 to 5 working days umm and all the got division of labour, 9 to 5 working days umm and all the toasters in our kitchen all this sort of stuff all sprang from toasters in our kitchen all this sort of stuff all sprang from there and there and that’s what people deal with on a daily basisthat’s what people deal with on a daily basis, so , so however mundane it is, that’s probably it.however mundane it is, that’s probably it.

Themes (White participants)Themes (White participants)

Theme 1 - Theme 1 - maintaining group boundaries maintaining group boundaries and in-group positive esteemand in-group positive esteem

Theme 2 – no relationship between sub-Theme 2 – no relationship between sub-groups and pivotal eventsgroups and pivotal events

Theme 3 - Theme 3 - concept of threat.concept of threat.

Theme 1 - Theme 1 - maintaining group maintaining group boundaries and in-group positive boundaries and in-group positive

esteemesteem KF – oh Lord I should come up with something really intellectual like KF – oh Lord I should come up with something really intellectual like

well I think it was the 1834 Poor Law amendment act (laughing), well well I think it was the 1834 Poor Law amendment act (laughing), well failing that one umm oh I don’t know World War 2, I should think failing that one umm oh I don’t know World War 2, I should think possibly because there are enough people around who remember that possibly because there are enough people around who remember that to have it affect on how the world is now.to have it affect on how the world is now.

I – right and when you think of how that’s sort of had an effect on how I – right and when you think of how that’s sort of had an effect on how things are now, is it because those people are still around or is it things are now, is it because those people are still around or is it because or particular changes?because or particular changes?

I – so it’s continuity?I – so it’s continuity? KF – yes, because those people are still around and they all remember KF – yes, because those people are still around and they all remember

itit, it accounts for my view that Germany’s violent when it isn’t at all , it accounts for my view that Germany’s violent when it isn’t at all (laughing(laughing) umm and I don’t know and I think an approach to situations ) umm and I don’t know and I think an approach to situations sort of that sort of feeling that the world could suddenly become sort of that sort of feeling that the world could suddenly become undone if you’re not carefulundone if you’re not careful

Theme 2 – no relationship between Theme 2 – no relationship between sub-groups and pivotal eventssub-groups and pivotal events

Whites tended not to identify pivotal events Whites tended not to identify pivotal events relating to sectional interests of their own relating to sectional interests of their own sub-groups eg class, gender, sexual sub-groups eg class, gender, sexual orientation despite making references to the orientation despite making references to the importance of these affiliations elsewhere in importance of these affiliations elsewhere in the interviews.the interviews.

Theme 3 - Theme 3 - concept of threat. concept of threat.

This was a recognition that the race of the interviewer This was a recognition that the race of the interviewer may have prompted a defensive response in participants. may have prompted a defensive response in participants. In contrast to the Black participants. In contrast to the Black participants.

The White interviewees tended to have a more positive The White interviewees tended to have a more positive representation of Britain and Britishness. representation of Britain and Britishness.

They assigned negative characteristics to the British past They assigned negative characteristics to the British past and emphasised positive changes over time using a and emphasised positive changes over time using a discourse of progress. discourse of progress.

They also made external attributions for negative They also made external attributions for negative qualities or behaviours either through linguistic form or by qualities or behaviours either through linguistic form or by associating negative behaviours with people unlike associating negative behaviours with people unlike themselves.themselves.

Does it matter?Does it matter?

In December 2003, the UK Black poet Benjamin Zephaniah refused an In December 2003, the UK Black poet Benjamin Zephaniah refused an OBE from the Queen because of his perception of the honour’s links OBE from the Queen because of his perception of the honour’s links with colonialism and slavery. with colonialism and slavery.

Upon receipt of the letter informing him of the Award, Mr. Benjamin Upon receipt of the letter informing him of the Award, Mr. Benjamin Zephaniah wrote: Zephaniah wrote: “Me? I thought, OBE me? Up yours, I thought. I get “Me? I thought, OBE me? Up yours, I thought. I get angry when I hear that word "empire"; it reminds me of slavery, it angry when I hear that word "empire"; it reminds me of slavery, it reminds of thousands of years of brutality, it reminds me of how my reminds of thousands of years of brutality, it reminds me of how my foremothers were raped and my forefathers brutalised. It is because of foremothers were raped and my forefathers brutalised. It is because of this concept of empire that my British education led me to believe that this concept of empire that my British education led me to believe that the history of black people started with slavery and that we were born the history of black people started with slavery and that we were born slaves, and should therefore be grateful that we were given freedom by slaves, and should therefore be grateful that we were given freedom by our caring white masters ...”our caring white masters ...”

Other possible explanationsOther possible explanations

A clash between his Rastafarian religious values A clash between his Rastafarian religious values and the acceptance of a secular honour and the acceptance of a secular honour

An anti-monarchist personal stanceAn anti-monarchist personal stance

Against his political or moral codeAgainst his political or moral code

Only for toilet cleanersOnly for toilet cleaners

Theoretical implicationsTheoretical implications

Difficult to look at issues such as alienation Difficult to look at issues such as alienation only in the present tenseonly in the present tense

Issues of identity benefit from a social Issues of identity benefit from a social memory perspectivememory perspective

Past has different resonances for different Past has different resonances for different groupsgroups

Without engagement with the meaning of Without engagement with the meaning of the past opportunities for dialogue are the past opportunities for dialogue are limited.limited.

Conclusion [1]Conclusion [1]

Difficult question for some intervieweesDifficult question for some interviewees Requires a degree of historical knowledge Requires a degree of historical knowledge

but historical inaccuracy is not a problembut historical inaccuracy is not a problem Requires some degree of articulacy in Requires some degree of articulacy in

participantsparticipants Needs larger scale study with matched Needs larger scale study with matched

participantsparticipants

Conclusion [2]Conclusion [2]

Pivotal event question generates data not Pivotal event question generates data not otherwise accessibleotherwise accessible

Qualitative analysis of this type of data Qualitative analysis of this type of data raises new issuesraises new issues

New type of data for social memory theoriesNew type of data for social memory theories Would benefit from larger-scale study in its Would benefit from larger-scale study in its

own rightown right

Thank YouThank You