The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 062 Pamela Slim

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW

Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business

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EPISODE #62: PAMELA SLIM

In this episode, Travis had an interesting conversation with Pamela Slim. Pamela is a best-selling

author, sought after speaker, business coach, and established entrepreneur. She is also currently in the

process of finishing her new book entitled Body of Work.

Travis and Pamela exchanged many wonderful ideas on how to establish a business idea especially for

those aspiring entrepreneurs, focusing more on the process of creation and getting a deeper

understanding as to why you want to establish your business. Pamela also shared her ideas on how to

overcome fear and prevent it from stopping you for pursuing your goals and objectives. That’s just

some of the valuable information that Travis and Pamela shared in this episode that entrepreneurs can

learn a lot from.

Pamela Slim – Using strategy and clarity to grow your business and income

Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins, welcome to episode number 62 of the Entrepreneur's Radio

Show. Unfortunately, my good friend and co-host, Sandra can't join us today. She's travelling for

business, so it's going to be just me, you and our wonderful guest which is Pamela Slim.

Now, Pamela is an award-winning author, speaker, and business coach who helps people navigate the

new world of business. In this episode we cover a lot of great things that Pamela feels like are

necessary in this new world to grow your business. Some of the things that come to mind is getting a

deeper understanding of the why behind what you're doing. We talked about understanding the process

of creation on a deeper level, how to quickly mobilize teams around your business to get things done

much faster, how to overcome fear, this is a common problem that a lot of people think that super

successful people don't have, which is not true. And then we also talked about the art of telling a great

story related to your business. In this day and age you've got to be able to tell the story of your

business and all of the things that lead to, really kind of the why, how you got there, and what's different

about your business. So that's the top 5 things that she recommended. And as you know the interview

goes in many different directions. We'll get a feel for her background and just a lot of other great things.

Another thing that came to mind as I was telling you this is she covered something about, and this was

a problem that I had experienced early on and maybe you did too. But being afraid to ask for help or not

wanting to feel silly or stupid, and a lot of times we wait way too long to ask someone that has been

down the path or knows the answer to give us a hand and help us keep moving. So, lots of great stuff

for growing your business.




Now one quick thing, before we get started. As you know, I like to remind you to stay with us until the

very end if you can because I like to share a little inspiration with you, and we'll also reveal who we're

going to connect you within the next episode. As always, they'll be lots of great stuff for growing your

business.

Now, one quick reminder, if you enjoy these free podcast that we create for you, we'd really appreciate

it if you'd go to DIYOB.com, which is short for DiamondsinYourBackyard.com, DIYOB.com, and then

click on the iTunes icon and post a comment and rate the show. This would help us reach, instruct, and

inspire more great entrepreneurs just like yourself with each and every guest that we bring on. So as I

told you our guest today is Pamela Slim. So without further ado, let's get into the interview and jump in.

So welcome to the show Pamela.

Pamela: Thanks for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Travis: You're welcome. I know that you're very busy. One of the things we like to do Pamela before

we get into some of the background of what you teach, is would you mind giving us the back-story of

how you got to where you're at today.

Pamela: Well yeah, I'll give you the short version because we only have an hour, right. We want to

have some other questions.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: Right now I'm an author, and writer, and a business coach and have been working in the

human side of business for about the last 25 years. So my undergraduate degree was actually in

International Development with a focus in non-formal education in Latin America, so I lived in Mexico,

and Columbia, and Brazil, and had a lot of interest in that. And then it kind of morphed into a track of

training and development, ended up being Corporate Training and Development, Barclay's Global

Investors which was the last real job that I held 17 years ago when I quit there. Then I ended up

working as a consultant for 10 years to companies. So mainly medium and large companies all

throughout the United States, so I worked a lot on the human side of business doing change

management, executive development, teaching management skills, facilitating meetings, that kind of

thing. And basically in those 10 years I found so many people who were really creative and interested

in doing something on their own but it really felt like a huge leap and very, very scary to leave the

security of corporate life to start a business.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: So that was kind of the early buzz in my ear about maybe doing something around that and

then I started in October of 2005, my blog which is Escape from Cubicle Nation, and I have been

working hands on with hundreds of people since then as a coach to actually help people transition from

http://www.diyob.com/





working in a full-time corporate job, evaluating if indeed they want to go out on their own, helping to

develop the early stage of the business idea, and getting them launched out into the market.

Travis: So now, did you go out on your own in 2005 or did you just start the blog there?

Pamela: 1996 is when I went out on my own.

Travis: Oh, okay.

Pamela: Yeah. So for 17 years I've been self-employed, but the first 10 years were as a consultant. So

that's where I was an independent consultant to companies. I work for myself but then in 2005 is where

I started to do a lot more virtual work, where I would be coaching clients from all over on, over the

phone, and then later on in Skype, and then travelling and speaking a lot more about entrepreneurship.

Travis: That's the ideal or the dream job, isn't it? Being able to--I say that because I do a lot of it also

and it's almost kind of a lifestyle business that we live. Do you feel that way? Do you feel like...?

Pamela: Yeah, I think it all depends. I think my philosophy about work is that the focus that we all want

to have is choosing something that really matches who we are and so for me personally it is a

wonderful, ideal situation because I do get lots of flexibility, I get to reach people from all over the world

and I also get to be engaged in things I care about like being a mom, and doing mixed martial arts, and

all kinds of other things that I enjoy. So I think, for me it's great, I know for somebody else it would be

horrible. And that's one of the funny things sometimes about when we talk about the world of work it's

really finding that particular kind of work that really lights you up and the kind of the work mode that

really is the best fit for you. So for people that are independent, that have a pretty high tolerance for

risk, that like to work virtually that don't need to always be around others, they can be a really, really

great fit. And then for others they love having their camaraderie and peer support, and sometimes

regular pay check of a job as an employee, and I think that's a great choice too.

Travis: So how long did it take--it almost sounds like due to your connections with Barclay's that you

were able to make the transition to working for yourself easier due to the relationships there, am I

drawing a correct conclusion, is that how you made the transition so smooth 17 years ago?

Pamela: Yeah. I think initially when I first quit my job, I'd actually didn't expect that I would be working

for myself and so I was just looking for another job, and it was my former boss who had been at

Barclay's that moved over Hewlett-Packard that ended up being my first client, where I just was looking

around and I didn't really find anything I was terribly interested in, and so I just started to do some

contracting for her, we were building a worldwide management development curriculum, and it was a

big project and so I just started working independently, but it was through that experience of just

working independently, and you're right, it was really wonderful as a first gig. But after that particular

project then all the other work actually didn't come at all for Barclay's, it was really just making




connections, and meeting people, and getting more familiar with folks in Silicon Valley which it was a

real busy time of growth in the late 90's. So I just ended up going from one gig to the next, and there

were a number of us that some of whom had been working as consultants in different companies that

ended up having kind of a small band of a lot referrals back and forth to each other. So I've always

worked with a lot of collaboration but in some ways it was a totally new world, it was just working in a

very different way than I was used to as an employee.

Travis: Right. So basically no net, there's no guarantee, and for me I completely understand that and

I'm fine with it. I actually couldn't imagine going into work every day and having to do a specific set of

things, I need to be my own person. Now you and I live in that space and we're comfortable with it, and

I know you teach this. There's a lot of people that can't understand the opposite side of where you and I

come from of not having a guarantee but being able to sleep at night and have crystal clarity that not

only will I be fine but I'm going to exceed fine by ten-fold. Is that arrogance, naiveness, or--in the

beginning. Now, I associate it to skill, but in the beginning what is it?

Pamela: Yeah. I definitely think that you need to have a certain amount of faith in yourself, and I really

classify as a high tolerance for risk because it is really scary and in many ways within the instability of

the world of work right now, I've said for many years actually that we're all self-employed. Even if you're

working as an employee for a company, most companies in the US at least have at will employment

where you can be laid-off for any reason that's not performance related. And so we think that we have

more stability in other situations but that can often be dangerous. They're definitely is a reality where

when you are an employee you do get a regular pay check once every 2 weeks, direct deposited and a

consistent amount of money, and that is something that can provide at least temporary stability. So I

think for folks that are going out on their own, you do have to have a certain trust that things are going

to work out. I'm a big fan of planning, whereas myself, I do have a gigantic tolerance for risk, but I

actually really love to do new things that are unproven and have done many things in my life. Travelling

by myself in Latin America, and just really enjoy doing really different things but that's my own

personality type, and that's definitely not the personality type of many of my clients. So I'm actually

quite conservative in terms of the approach that I take when I'm working with somebody that does have

a viable business idea, and I want to underline that about 13 times. I said in my book, Escape from

Cubicle Nation that hitting your job intensely is not a business plan. So just the idea of working for

yourself is not enough. And actually you should be a bit worried if you don't really have a viable

business idea that's been tested, where you've gotten real paying customers in the market. So often

when I'm working with people we do a much more structured, slow, gradual approach where they're

working full-time during the day, they have a side hustle on the side of their day job where they're

building up their business and getting the systems, and structure, and customers. And when they're

ready to make that transition they're a little bit more secure about it, because I think a lot of people, it

puts them into a huge high stress mode, especially if they are in a partnership or they have kids, or they




have a mortgage, it can be really, really stressful but you can impinge on your ability to be flexible and

creative, which you need in order to grow your business.

Travis: Right. I interviewed the author of Mastery, and he made a great point. And so drawing a line,

kind of a parallel of what you're saying there. A lot of people I believe have this misconception that you

can just quit your job, spread your wings and fly and be incredibly successful. And that happens a lot

less than most people think unless you've been lucky enough to be conditioned. And so maybe the

conditioning is you have exemplary skills in sales and maybe you spent several years being trained in

the industry that you're going to go in, so you're already competent in a multiple of fields before you go

into that field, and basically it is a proven field. And a lot of people are not as methodical or organized in

that approach, so I completely understand where you're coming from. I coach business owners and the

most common denominator with struggling business owners is the lack of a system. They don't track

things, they don't know what is working, they don't know what's working, so on and so forth, right.

Pamela: Exactly, and there are many different personality types with some folks who are more

creatively minded. They may not initially be drawn to very specific structured program. I completely

agree with you, there are certain things which I think every single business owner needs to have

whether or not it feels really intuitive, and that is a strong financial tracking system, having the correct

business structure just so that you're safe and protected, appropriate insurance, all those things I just

wish for everybody, regardless of what their approach is to business. Some people are much more

freewheeling and creative and do well, do quite well without having a great formalized business plan.

They are like connected as you said, they have good sales skills, they respond to the market, they build

things, and I think as long as those business fundamentals are in place and they can still grow really

effectively. But you're exactly right, one of the reasons why I think it was easy for me to make a

transition into my field is it was really a lateral movement away from having a high level of confidence

and competence in my field in management consulting and training and development, executive

coaching, those kind of things so that I was doing very similar work, just in a way that was independent.

And there are definitely were some different kinds of skills, it's very different to work as an independent

consultant than it is to work as an employee, and I was 30 when I started so it's not as tremendously

young as some of our amazing young entrepreneurs are today. It seems like people are just getting

smarter and smarter in a younger and younger age.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: But still, I was still relatively young and didn't have some of the same level of experience as

some of my other peers who were independent consultants. And so there were things that I really had

to prove, but I definitely made it easier because I had that subject matter expertise. And I love the idea

of Mastery, I actually haven't read that book yet but I'm a huge, huge proponent of that and I think that's

one of the things that I really learned that I draw a lot of parallels to in the work that I've done in martial

arts for so many years is that we never would have the expectation. Most people wouldn't be stepping




into a new martial arts studio that they would immediately get promoted to black belt in the first month,

right.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: That you know when you come in, you need to start at the beginning, you did go through all of

the exercises and requisites to get to the first belt. And part of what's being built is a competence and a

technical aspect of the art but you're also building up emotional confidence, you're building up your

physical strength in order to be able to do the more difficult moves, and you're also developing the

courage in order to get into dicier and dicier situations with people, throwing fist and kicks at your head.

And that is one of the good things when you do take your time in order to build up that kind of

competence. Then when you get to higher level belt then you're actually ready for it and you're really

prepared in all ways. You probably seen a similar experience with some of your clients, sometimes

people get a very early success and something happens, they have a great product, and it comes out

and gets written about on some big blog and they make a bunch of sales, and they think that business

is always going to be that way, and often it's not. Sometimes we don't even realize what are the factors

that contributed to our success, so that by doing that and taking time I'm much more of like the turtle

pace advocate for business, using all effective tools that you can to be as efficient as possible, but I

think there's really great joy, and it kind of eases some pressure if you don't think that you have to have

instant success.

Travis: Yeah, and something happened. Say, when you take 2 or 3 skills and you master each of those

skills, and then you combine them together. When they become 2nd nature and Robert Greene really

illustrated this grade in the book. When you master those three and their second nature, you no longer

have to really plan too far out ahead on how to use those skills, you're present for a whole another level

of performance. I'm not trying to say that you don't need a plan but it becomes more of a second nature

and you ascend to this whole new level of competence, does that make sense?

Pamela: I really think so. I definitely, based on--as I said, I haven't read the book yet but based on my

research and work with strength-based approach to working, where you really do focus on whether

your natural inherent strengths, focusing on really building up a few of those, I would totally agree. And

that's definitely been my experience personally, and it's also been my experience working with a lot of

clients. It's often where people are trying to do everything at once or approach everything at once.

Develop all their skills that were they can end up really not feeling as strong.

Travis: Right. I started business 22 years ago, you started 17 years ago, it was a very different time

then. It was a more abundant time in some levels for entry in the business I think was possibly easier at

that time. You could pick a niche that wasn't fulfilled and go into it a little more unprepared and have

some level of success. Whereas I think there's a lot of abundance now but you need to have much

more competence to make that transition, or at least make it smoothly. Do you agree with that?




Pamela: Yeah. I think that it just depends exactly as you said. Me starting in 1996 and however much

your 22 years, 5 years earlier or something, it was an amazing time in the economy, I know especially

being in the Bay area which is where I'm from, and the San Francisco Bay area, there was tremendous

growth, there were huge opportunities, and I would just say, just qualify by--it depends on the nature of

business that you were getting into.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: So certainly, not all businesses always did well and I experienced the crash in 2000 that

happened in Silicon Valley where many of my clients just completely went out of business, but I always

had a diverse base so I was also involved in some other industries, and insurance, and financial

services, and was able to get through that alright. But now, I think, the positive side is there are so

many more tools that make many people able to start a business for an extremely low amount of

money, depending upon what you're doing. Sometimes free tools are very low-cost tools that you can

use, connecting with customers all over the world. It also means that that there are so many new things

to learn and there's also much more competition within certain areas where you really need to be

differentiating yourself.

Travis: Exactly.

Pamela: So, so much of it--yes, I think it depends on the nature of the industry that you're in, what

you're trying to do, and then as what we've been talking about, how it is that you focus your plan so that

you can get a foothold into one area to begin to generate revenue which honestly is one of the hardest

pieces. I enjoyed working for a long time and just the early, early, it's almost kind of the pre-stages of

entrepreneurship when somebody just has an idea in their head and they're getting it out into the world,

getting those first customers, getting things first going is often really significant psychological and

business step. And then once you do that, and businesses can really grow and change in a lot of

different directions.

Travis: Right. One of the things that you'd mentioned earlier, and you were kind of reading my mind.

Left brain, right brain, I have my own opinions about this, and I know that as humans we're much more

complex than left brainers or right brainers, but typically, which one do you see predominantly makes

this move from being an employee to an employer?

Pamela: I actually don't see a predominance and I look at it more in terms of--I have worked with

people who are absolutely analytical, introverted software developers that ended up being very

successful and growing a business. I've worked with extremely creative artists and what we would

consider much more right brain people. To me the characteristics are not so much, either personality

characteristics or psycho-graphic characteristics. Well, psycho-graphic characteristics in that they're

people who are willing to be extremely clear with what their strengths and their weaknesses are, and




are open to ideas or focused on growing a viable business, really look at the market, really look at

serving their customers and put things in place in order to compensate for their areas of weakness, and

I think those kinds of people from all kinds of different backgrounds are much more likely to succeed.

And I think sometimes, I get asked this question a lot from press and things like that, we're looking at

what are the characteristics of a very successful entrepreneur. And where we might say kind of with the

extrovert bias that we have I think in general, and if you've read Susan Cain's book Quiet which is a

wonderful book about introverts and about many ways we have certain biases toward who we think is

more successful or more out there. We might say that the person who's extroverted, who's just out

there networking and shaking hands is the kind of person who will be a naturally successful

entrepreneur. We actually see a lot of the opposite in terms of many of our technology start-up founders

who again have very different personality characteristics. So I like to look at it on a case-by-case basis.

I've seen people from all sides of the spectrum, right, left brain, etc. be both very successful and also

not successful.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: So that's why think, we can sometimes, I always hate to say something, I think about my own

kids put a broad, base perspective on something saying, "This kind of person is only going to be good

for this thing because I think we have a lot of choices and people can kind of choose to go in to the

areas if they want to." I don't know if you found a similar thing or seen kind of similar biases sometimes

toward extroverts or toward right brain creative folks.

Travis: Yeah. Extroverts can be deceiving they're talking to everybody and they could never keep an

appointment and never get anything done also.

Pamela: That's right. As a raging extrovert my editor would totally agree with you.

Travis: So for me, I haven't read that book, I'm going to have to put it on my to-read list. I've noticed.

Now, what I try to do is when I interact with people, and I go to a lot of conferences. I try not to lead

anyone any direction because I want to try to see things unfold as naturally as possible. And I noticed

or I observed that the majority of people in business seem to be right brain, and with some left brain

skills. Now I've seen highly successful right brainers that have developed left brain skills, and the more

they've developed those left brain skills, normally the more successful financially they are in their

businesses. Another common problem that I see is right brainers will hire other right brainers within

their business and there's no organized left brainer, centric-type person that's in the middle of things,

bringing everything together and making sure everything gets done. And so either you develop that skill

or you hire that skill and you overcome that problem. And for years I used to think that I needed to

develop those skills and then I finally come to the conclusion, "Heck just hire them. Hire people that are

better than me, let them do the stuff that I don't want to do." And I believe part of the reason why the

majority of business owners borrowing specialty things like their software development or there's left

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brainer type businesses that left brains will come out of just due to industry, right. In my experience

right brainers seem to be much more willing to place themselves in a risky situation.

Pamela: Yeah. And I guess part of the issue is just how exactly that we define what's a right brainer

versus left brainer because obviously we all have both sides, it's just right kind of--and there are

different ways that we can look to the orientation we can look at our Myers-Briggs profile, or cognitive

index from the Colby and again I think it depends if we're kind of saying in general people who might be

more creatively oriented, who were drawn to kind of arts and culture, creative problem solving, as

oppose to those who are more analytical. But I think for me sometimes we can make it too simplistic of

a designation which can leave one group feeling kind of erroneously left out. And again, so much

depends on the planning, and the grit, and the desire, and the passion level of an entrepreneur for

really bringing an idea out there into the world and making a business of it. And I've really seen folks on

both sides that have been really successful.

Travis: I really agree with you on it. The grit, the tenacity, the undying desire, all of those things plays a

critical role. And again, that's why, I know human beings are much more complex than to put them in a

left brain, right brain. And I think the thought process is only useful when trying to figure out who should

be in what position because I think if you try to put someone that is--I see a lot of people try to put a

great salesman in a management position that requires high organizational skills, and while they're fun-

loving and great to be around, that is a form o torture for them, and they're never going to excel at that

and a lot of them don't want to say anything about it. And so I think that's probably the more safe

compartment to put that in rather than telling left brainers don't even try it. It's a mindset and I guess if

you get too attached to it, it becomes limiting. So I understand where you're coming from there. Let's

move on to the next thing. Let me ask you, what do you feel like are the--are you more focused on

people making the transition from being an employee to an employer, is that your main focus?

Pamela: It has been, and so it definitely has been in the last 8 years or so with Escape from Cubicle

Nation, I'm working on a new book, just finishing it actually in the next few days called Body of Work.

And that's really a much bigger picture look at the new world of work and the skills that I think we need

in order to be successful. So I'm shifting a little bit in terms of the nature of work that I'm doing. As I said

earlier I started my independent career working with companies and some and really helping them to

go through different stages of growth. So I found there was kind of a natural change and interest in the

market as I had been working with a lot of very early stage entrepreneurs. They were also those folks

who had been successful, they gotten through that and they had grown their business and were at

another particular transition in stage of growth of really wanting to go to the next level. And then I say,

"Wait a minute. I know you're kind of the Escape from Cubicle Nation lady but do you also help with

folks in this new direction?" So it's been kind of fun to watch how the market is generally emerged and

I'm beginning to do more of that kind of work, of actually helping people go to a next stage of

development. And then in general what's just the most interest to me is actually the entire world of work




and really working with folks to help understand what kind of work life do they want to have, what work

mode makes the most sense for them. And I think at this stage personally, it's not so much doing

hands-on, 1-on-1, coaching, or consulting anymore but more working in partnership with companies

that are doing it or giving talks on the topic. I think I'm just really interested right now at looking at what's

happening in the new world of work and all the different opportunities. So I'll always have my heart in

entrepreneurship and will continue to do work in that area. I also feel like a breath of fresh air coming in,

as I'm able to talk about certain things that I haven't in about 8 years because I've just been focused on

the entrepreneurial market.

Travis: So alliteration of that new world of work sounds to me like you're speaking to the corporate, is

that right?

Pamela: It's everybody. To me the new world of work is an economy that I believe--history will tell but

we'll never be as stable as it was for you and I early on when we started. That economy we knew that

was more stable, more predictable, where people stayed in one organization for a really long time, I

don't think that's going to happen. I think businesses also change and pivot in turn so rapidly because

so much innovation comes to be new technology completely obliterates a whole segment of businesses

sometimes, based on innovation and technical development. So, when I see the new world of work I

mean the entire the entire world of work, how it is that we all interface with each other. Universities,

non-profits, for profit corporations, small, medium, and large businesses. And I think that's the

interesting thing is that now if we think about that as an individuals in the context of what we want to do

my premise for my new book is that it's really the purpose of our lives in order to create a body of work

that we're very proud of personally. So it addresses issues that are great significance to us, that we

help to solve problems, that we care passionately about solving, that we have our own definition of

success that really matches the kind of life that we want to have, the pace of life, how we engage we

want to be as parents and our community, etc. And that's where I think the opportunities are because

many people will go in-between all kinds of different work modes. Maybe not you and I, it'd be hard to

imagine personally ever going back to work as an employee.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: But who knows, right, you never know, maybe the perfect scenario will come up sometime

where it would make sense if those kinds of conditions in that work mode would allow me to be building

something that's very significant for my own body of work. So I actually see it a lot broader and I think

that we have a lot more in common with each other. Sometimes in the entrepreneurial world we'd like to

be very Star Wars, right, light and dark side of the force. It's the light side of the force or these great

people who are entrepreneurs who have total freedom and flexibility all the time and just sit on the

beach and drink Mai Tai's versus people who were in corporations and we know that's just simply not

the truth, right? There's beautiful things and each of those different work modes and I think that the key

is really finding out what is the right situation for you at different stages of your life.




Travis: Yeah. I've grown bitter about corporate because there was a time when I grew my business to

that corporate mentality and level, and it's a lot of non-direct speak, it's having meetings to create more

meetings, and just a whole lot of not getting things done when being a true entrepreneur and

entrepreneur-ism is getting things done, being effective, making a difference, making an impact, and

based on my own biased experience I became very jaded when I was caught up in the corporate world

and that's kind of the dark side in the Star Wars aspect of that that you're talking about, right.

Pamela: That's right, Darth Vader in your conference room. You're so right, there are components--I'm

kind of an eternal optimist so I know it's a bit annoying, it's probably the life coach in me but I'd say yes,

absolutely there are systemic things when you get an organization to a certain size. The way that we've

learned how to manage that is often getting more and more convoluted, getting people farther and

farther away from the kind of work that they want to do. And so I think that the opportunity is--there are

some companies that are really looking for different ways to work. The off decided example but I've

been on their campus a couple of times as Google where you look at many ways in which they were

trying to structure their work life can include some components that are leveraging kind of the benefits

of being entrepreneurial and encouraging people to be working on side projects and having a lot of

creative, warm, cool spaces where people can be thinking and talking collaboratively. So you're right,

and it's why personally for me that kind of work mode is not satisfying because I love the very direct

impact. I can talk to somebody today, do a coaching call, next month I can see specifically that they got

results that have a direct impact in terms of their income and ability to take care of their family or maybe

they get featured in the press. It's just really wonderful to see that direct impact. So for me personally,

that's not really where I choose to work. But I've really learned and I'm always really curious about the

way that we talk about things that sometimes it can be just a clear either or and within that there are

some companies I think that are doing really interesting things that are really--can be a great place to

work for certain people at a given stage of their life.

Travis: Yeah, great qualifier. I've been on the Google campus and off through there and it's a great

place for 20 something’s, and a very cool place to be. Although, I couldn't imagine working in that

environment now at 47.

Pamela: Exactly, I know, I would be exhausted. And it's funny too, there's so many services are now

brought on campus but it's basically so that folks can be there all the time. They have laundry services,

meal everywhere, and it's a bit of the Hotel California that you can go in but you can never leave.

Travis: Right.

Pamela: But at a different stage. I'm the same, I'm 46 and so with kids and everything, I couldn't

imagine being somewhere where they require as much work as required, I'd like to have the flexibility.

Travis: Yeah.




Pamela: But I did when I was in my 20's and I was at Barclay's Global Investors, I loved it, I was

actually an extremely happy employee, I really did. I learned so much in the time that I was there being

around really, really smart people that I would never trade that kind of experience.

Travis: And now I don't know if it's an age thing but I would rather have silence and I'd like to read and

be able to white board out problems and think things down on a much deeper level, and then analyze

whether I'm right or wrong, and I'm turning into this geeky person that I never figured I would have been

when I was 20 years old. Have you gone in that direction as you've gotten older?

Pamela: Yeah. I notice from my own creative process, I work from home for many years and then

actually when I book came out in 2009, my kids were still pretty little. My daughter was about a year old

and my son about 3 and a half. And so even though I always had babysitter that was there taking care

of the kids when I was working, it just became much more difficult in order to concentrate because I'd

hear them and then they knew I was upstairs and they'd sneak up. One time when my book came out,

the first two weeks I did 52 radio interviews in the period of 2 weeks and so you can imagine when I

was on the radio with something in the interview and all of a sudden I would have this cute little kid kind

of stuck to my leg, crawling up in my lap wanting to talk to me. So I eventually got an off-site office

which I've been in the last few years that works really well, and I do notice exactly what you're saying

that when I want to get in the creative zone I really like to have more quiet and focus and not to be

around tons of people. So the kinds of activities that I do when I'm writing I'd like to have a lot of just

quiet. But when I'm doing other things, when I'm generating ideas, because I am such a raging

extrovert I get very stimulated being around lots of people so if I spend too much time by myself, that's

when I head down out on the road and get my fill of people and sharing ideas and then come back to

my little cave and write them up.

Travis: I resemble that, I understand exactly what you're talking about. So what's the subtitle to your

book? It says...

Pamela: We haven't said it yet.

Travis: Okay.

Pamela: So yes, we're playing around with a bunch of different ideas but it's something about kind of

finding success and happiness in the new world of work so it's definitely the bigger premise of the world

of work.

Travis: And so do you subscribe to the mindset for the book that the title speaks to the head and the

subtitle speaks to the heart?

Pamela: Oh, I hadn't heard that before. No, I hadn't thought about it, I like that.




Travis: Yeah, because we analyze a title will catch my attention and a subtitle will close the deal for

me, right. Because it covers things from a different angle, it gives me a synopsis of the book to a certain

extent with 20 characters, right.

Pamela: Exactly. That's kind of the curse because for Escape from Cubicle Nation: From Corporate

Prisoner to Thriving Entrepreneur, it was one of those titles that kind of came to me very organically

and was the title of my blog before my book. So it's worked so well for me than a bit of a curse to come

up with a next one because it's like, "Man, I just wanted to hit me in the center of my forehead

randomly." But we don't have a lot of time left so I keep asking for it, I keep looking to the sky and then

we're working on it, hopefully you'll like the subtitle when we finalize it.

Travis: Run it past me.

Pamela: That's right.

Travis: Okay, so let's do the top 5 things that you feel like people should be focusing on and maybe the

top 5 things that you feel like people tend to get wrong.

Pamela: Yeah. I think, some of the core components, and this is really for people that are in business

or for people that are working for somebody else. I think one of things that's always really important to

remember is why it is that we're doing what we're doing and I call it your roots. So what's that deeper

meaning and purpose behind your work. It's very, very easy to get caught up in the busy-ness of just

getting things done especially if you have a company and you just focus on revenue and lose sight

sometimes in terms of why it is that you're doing something and how is it connected to the bigger

picture about what you want to create in your lifetime. Your own body of work, I think that's very, very

important. So why is it you're doing what you're doing? I think we also really need to focus a lot more on

understanding and executing the process of creation. Everything about what we do in our ability to

become successful is our ability to create things to bring things out in the world. So products, and

books, and books, and programs, and whatever it is that we're selling when we're in business. And

even when you're inside the company it's being able to really move an initiative forward, amid

sometimes as you're saying really difficult circumstances like 25 different people that have to approve

what it is that you're doing, right? So I think all of us need to get much more aware and better at the act

of creation. Looking for creative ideas, looking for smart ways to do things, looking for ways to kind of

speed up and enhance our own creative process, that we don't get stuck with a bunch of ideas in our

head. The third thing is our ability to really quickly mobilize very diverse and interesting teams of people

around us and a lot of these can be informal peer networks, but people that can help us to get things

done. Because as we were talking about earlier we each have our own strengths weaknesses, I know

very clearly what mine are, I know for example that I am not the strongest implementer. So I can have

an idea a minute but I need people around me that can help to lay down structure in order to implement

things. I am not totally enamored by finance and legal issues but I love to have them done and taken




care of so I need to have folks who are really strong in those areas around me. And then also I could

have blind sides for how I look at business. As an example one of my friends ------ who writes I will

teach you to be rich is one of these really wonderful, young, brilliant minds who's a multi-millionaire,

runs a very successful business teaching people about personal finance and entrepreneurship and

career kind of stuff, and he has just has such an analytical mind when it comes to how it is that he looks

at the market. So whenever I have the ability to talk about business with him I always walk away with a

really, really important perspective. So we need to be able to identify who are people around us who

really have a strong, strong perspective that's going to help us to get things done. I think the other thing

is our ability to manage our own emotions, our fears, our limiting thoughts. I've never known anybody,

including super rich and famous people who can totally overcome fear and doubt. I think it's a skill that

you're going to understand yourself, you can come up with some really positive mental models, if you

get stuck in a corner you can talk yourself out of it or you know the right person to call to help you think

through it, but I think that's a really important skill. And then finally when I think that's really, really

important for everybody is your ability to tell great stories. And that is, first the story that you tell yourself

about why it is that you actually want to be doing something, why are you capable, why should anybody

pay attention, and the second story is how do you really tell it in a compelling way to the market. So this

is everything from getting your first customers to telling a good story on a sales page for selling a

product, to presenting in front of people and telling a compelling story when you're trying to get the

engaged in whatever it is that you want to influence them on.

Travis: Wow, that's good stuff for me. Now this was not planned so you're really good.

Pamela: Well, it happens to be related to the new book I'm writing so may have a lot of it top of mind I

would say.

Travis: Genius. I got to tell you something that is; to one of the points that you made there and it's a

little embarrassing that it was a turning point for me. So I'd live the majority of my life believing that

bravery was the absence of fear. And about 41 I become aware, I was at an event and it struck me and

someone was illustrating it. And they said, "Bravery is the ability to move forward in the presence of

fear." And that was so poignant for me and I'm pretty knowledgeable on quite a few things but that hit

me like a ton of bricks, because I lived the majority of my life and had to come up from a very tough,

rough background and so deal with things through aggression as a young man. And so that's a great

point that you made learning how to deal with those issues because everybody has some elements of

self-doubt that try to get in your way.

Pamela: Exactly. And it's a positive sign, it's part of how it is that we keep ourselves safe, it's part of

what makes us naturally human, is to have that full range of emotion and in some ways somebody who

has absolutely zero fear, I kind of worry about those folks sometimes.

Travis: Yeah.




Pamela: And it's different than having a highly-tuned understanding about the things that make you

afraid and really good ways in which you can kind of manage that and work with it, I call it surfing the

fear where it's like a big wave may come up but you can develop a certain capacity for dealing with it.

But I totally agree with you. It's not stomping through it or thinking all of a sudden you work up this big

courage, you feel no fear at all and then you move forward. I feel the most courageous, right after I've

completely shaken and quaked in my boots and walked through a totally scary situation where I'm

doing something new and challenging after I do it is often where I feel that real courage and pride that

comes up.

Travis: I agree with you.

Pamela: But I think we tend to think that we need to feel that before and that's what keeps us stuck and

we never do anything because we're like, "Yeah, I'm not courageous yet so maybe next week."

Travis: Right. I'm not going to do it today because I'm not feeling courageous.


Travis: It's like sitting in front of the fire place insisting that you get some heat before you put any logs

in there; it just doesn't work that way, right.

Pamela: It's a great metaphor, that's exactly right.

Travis: And so I agree with you. I feel the most alive after I've walked through my fears and I get to the

other side and I am just exhilarated. I go through this normal conversation of "Why did you let that

bother you so long, why didn't you..." all of those things. And then you learn to just hit them, moving a

little faster and not letting them hold you up as they did before.

Pamela: Exactly.

Travis: So if we took the reverse of that, if we tried to look at some of the common things, mistakes that

people make. Would it be the reverse of these things that you said or would it be something else, these

suggestions that you would give?

Pamela: Yeah. In some ways I think it's the reverse, a lot of times I think when I see people get the

most stuck when they are stuck in their head and they're afraid to ask for any help, or they think they

have to figure everything out themselves. And that just tends to be something that creates a really,

really negative downward spiral, it's like everything starts to feed into itself. You get more anxious

because you realize that you don't have all the answers but you think you should. So tell yourself a

horrible story about it, you feel worse and worse, and you start to just sink into that kind of despair and

inaction. And so I really think to a great extent, it's that. And the other thing is it's very powerful, and I've

realized this as I'm writing my book, and I realized it's probably what I love the most about the work that




I do is just that everything really comes to light when you are creating things. And even if many writing

coaches or people who deal with anything creative will tell you--my dad's a photographer and he talks

this all the time. When you're creating things, a lot of what you create is not going to be the best quality.

But it's like if you don't write that first really terrible draft or if you don't take the first 75 horrible pictures

in order to get the really good one then there's no way that you're ever going to be producing things that

you feel really good about. And there is something really to be said about just producing, getting in that

state, and a lot of ---- stuck in their head for so long. So one of the very first things we do is to just say,

"Okay. What's that one tangible stuff that you can make that will be something real?" If it's writing one

email, or going and giving one talk, or putting up a very basic webpage just in order to gets your

business rolling.

Travis: I couldn't agree with you more. For me I'm listening to a book and this is a--I love audio books

because I can multi-task and consume a book. And it's the 5 Elements of Effective Thinking. And it's a

really brilliant book and the guy talks about--he described something and it was what turned the light on

for me and my early 20's. And so he's teaching a class and he has this girl, the student in the class.

He's teaching math and she's there for the credits and she's definitely not interested in the class. And

he asked her to explain infinity, and he said, "I'll tell you in advance that you will not be able to answer

the question so that I can remove the pressure." Just tell me what you feel like the answer to that is."

And so she gave her answer and he illustrated what she said on the board. And he said, "First of all,

exactly as I said, you are incorrect. However, when you look at this problem, what part of the problem

do you know that is not accurate now that I have it on the board?" And so she looked at it, and after

talking through it she realized one piece was wrong, and then they basically repeated that process 8

times and on the 8th time she dialled into the answer. And I had something similar to that happen to me

in my life at a very young age, and it turned a light on to me, and that told me that if I took an idea out

and put it on paper, white board or whatever. And if I really, really wanted to know the answer, I could

refine it, figure it out, put it down, refine it, figure out what's wrong and fix it. It basically told me that I

could have the key to anything that I really wanted that was important to me in my life. Has it hit you like

that or have you had something similar like that to where all of these opened up and it was kind of what

I consider a place in my life where I learned the art of learning, if that make sense.

Pamela: How wonderful, I love that, I love, love, love that analogy and I think--I don't remember a

moment necessarily but I think about it very, very much in my experience of doing martial arts where I

did Capoeira which is the Afro-Brazilian martial arts for 11 years, and then I've done mixed martial arts

for about the last 4 and a half years. And it does feel like a continual learning process, but sometimes

it's full of great frustration of not being able to do a particular movement or being really scared about

doing certain things, being afraid of sparring with certain people because I know they are really fast, or

really strong or things like that, but by really staying in there and practicing and trusting the person that

I'm being taught by is where I can really see that progress. And I think that in general, from martial arts

is always been a really important lesson for me to see. I wrote a post once about my daughter Angela




Rose who's 5 and we start school really early here in Arizona because it's so hot we have to end the

year early before the summer starts but we start in about mid-August and I actually think it was like

August 8. So she started kindergarten and there are these monkey bars that were on her kindergarten

playground. And every day I always drop her off at school and everyday she's hang on to the very first

wrung, and just hang on it until she dropped off, and she's had have a big smile on her face, she'd get

off, she'd go to the back of the line because there was always more kids and then she'd try it again.

And so she did this every day, she just hung on that one wrung every day until October 23rd, and on

October 23rd she got up there, she looked at me and she crossed the entire thing. My jaw just totally

dropped, it was so exciting. But what struck me about that process is that she was just willing to hang in

there and what she was doing is developing confidence, calluses on her hand, developing strength in

order to do it. But I just thought it was a really good metaphor that sometimes we don't see the progress

that we're making, and it seems like you are just doing the same old thing. But if you're conscious about

it and like she had it, I thought which was a great attitude, she did not get frustrated, she was actually

quite happy about it. Then when you're ready to go you're really going to be flying across the monkey

bars. Now she goes forwards, backwards, skips bars, she's is great.

Travis: Yeah. It's a wonderful story because you see your child evolving like that. But what's interesting

is that's how skill sets evolve, that's how you evolve. And that's why I think it's so important to share

these stories with our listeners because a lot of times it's easy to feel like, "Well, this guy is so much

smarter. They have things that I don't have." Well a lot of successful entrepreneurs didn't have anything

but tenacity, and so sometimes the answer is 20 stories deep of you thinking, mapping it out, figuring

what you're getting wrong, what you're getting right. And so I just love the illustration of that. I find

writing does the same exact thing, and I'm sure, based on the amount of writing that you've done, that

you've founded as well. Writing gives you a new level of competence and awareness on a topic. I've

wrote on a topic that I've probably generated $50 million doing, so if I've generated that much revenue

doing it you would think that I would know everything there is to know about doing it, right? And when I

wrote on it, my mind was completely blown at the new level of awareness. You can hang me by my

toes and I knew it frontwards, backwards, sideways, any direction. A new level of competence that I

had never knew was there on that topic. So writing drives that deep, deep into the levels of your mind,

have you experienced that with your writing?

Pamela: Absolutely, yes. I totally agree. I often say I don't really know what I think until I write it down.

Travis: Yeah, right.

Pamela: And it's very true, that often is the way that the process happens and I think that's one of the

neat things today about having things like blogs that, I know when I first started I didn't even know what

one was but it was a chance just to test ideas, share things, get it out there, and if you're doing

reflection and doing different drafts and starting to put things together it is surprising and it is wonderful




how we do have a certain perspective that we're not aware of as we're walking through the day. So I

think that's a great example, I love that.

Travis: Yeah. So now my first draft is horrible. I don't correct any spelling, I just blaze through it

because I want to try to get as much of the full, original idea down because I know that, depending on

where it's going, it may get edited 300 times.

Pamela: Exactly.

Travis: Depending on what it is. Hey listen, we're running short on time, let's transition to the lightning

round. I've got 3 questions and I've sent those to you so that you could prepare because they're not so

easy to answer.

Pamela: You assume I prepared but I'll try to make it up on the spot.

Travis: Well, I know you're good so you pull those five right off the top of your head so I was pretty

impressed with that. Okay, so the first question is, what's one of your favourite tools or pieces of

technology that you've recently discovered if any that you'd recommend to other business owners and

why?

Pamela: Yeah, one that I love that I'm actually writing my new book with is called Scrivener and it is a

tool for writing, you can use it for eBooks, I suppose you could even use it for something like blog post

or books. But it is to me so far superior to something like Microsoft Word that I was using. I still use

Word for other things, there's nothing wrong with it, but Scribner allows you to have a very visual

interface for how it is that you're organizing your ideas for chapters and then you could break things

down into small, little sections and just move them all around between chapters, kind of change things

real quickly, and then it will export into a variety of different formats. So into PDF format, or Word, and I

am a total convert so I love it. For anybody who likes to write, you should check it out.

Travis: Scrivener?

Pamela: Scrivener, yeah.

Travis: Cool. Okay. What book or program made an impact on you related to business that you'd

recommend and why?

Pamela: I love a lot of books, one that I'm really enjoying right now is Quiet by Susan Cain, and I

mentioned before. Really understanding more the world of introverts and I just think it's an amazingly

well done book. It did extremely well last year; it won just about every award that was to be done. But

as somebody who is naturally extroverted, I have my brother is highly introverted, I have many clients

that are highly introverted and I find it's just a really, really useful thing to dig in and question my own

assumptions about how we're wired, what's successful and what's not and how can I really structure my

http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php



http://amzn.to/15I9FfH




life and my business to be very friendly to a huge portion of the population who is not really wired the

same way that I am.

Travis: Right. Okay. What famous quote would best summarize your belief or your attitude in

business?

Pamela: You know, the one that I'm actually working on right now, I have a lot of favourite quotes from

other authors but really why I'm focusing on for the new book is about having a full colourful contact life.

And what I mean by that is, and really making sure that in whatever it is that we're doing, that we're

really fully engaged, that we feel the full range of emotions, that we look at the broad spectrum of the

complexity of life, and I find that when you live a kind of life that really is opening yourself up and

bringing your very best, and it's just a much, much more higher quality life, much more enjoyable. And it

also means that you can create really great things.

Travis: So this question kind of aligns with that and maybe it's that statement within itself but what do

you aspire to or dream of, personally or professionally.

Pamela: Yeah, I think my aspiration is really about creating and it is about creating a body of work,

things that are super useful to people who I care about serving. I really aspire to be an extremely

connected and active parent. I'm excited by my kids getting older and now they're 5 and 8 and I really

want to just be educated and aware and tuned in to what it is that they're doing so that I can be the very

best parent that I can be. And be the same way as a community member, I really like to be an active

member of my community, get to know people, get to create really positive impact around me. So I

think the higher level is just--I don't exactly know what it is that I will be creating 10 years from now but I

just been super happy with the kinds of people that I've been able to work with and the kind of

contribution that I have made thus far and I hope that I stay really active and engaged in doing that.

Maybe growing the company a little bit more now that my kids are a little bit bigger. I also feel like I'm

ready to take some steps to maybe grow, have a few more employees, maybe do work with some

bigger clients, and be little bit more active than I have been when my kids were really little.

Travis: Right. Kids are full time job, right.


Travis: So, how do people connect with you?

Pamela: The best you can find me at EscapeFromCubicleNation.com and on Twitter, I'm @pamslim,

and then on Facebook page is facebook.com/pamslim.

Travis: Okay, great. I'm going to post those notes in our show notes section. Can you hangout for just

a minute?

http://www.escapefromcubiclenation.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pamslim




Pamela: Sure.

Travis: Alright. I'll go ahead and start wrapping things up. I want to thank you for spending the time with

us, we could talk for a few more hours on multiple of directions, you've been a brilliant guest and your

perspectives really shine some lights on several different directions if people can think about just the

entrepreneurial spirit no matter where they're at in their journey, whether they're already there or

wanting to make that transition. So I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Pamela: Thanks for having me; it's been a lot of fun on my side too.

Travis: Yeah, you bet. So listen, I want to remind you guys that you can find all the links to the books

and the resources mentioned in the show in the show notes section. Just go to DIYOB.com, so that's

short for Diamonds in Your Own Backyard, DIYOB.com. And also while you're there enter your name

and we'll send you the 2013 Business Owner's Guide to a Profitable Million Dollar Business. It's a

candid behind-the-scenes look at what you need to know to grow your business to incredible levels of

success. What we'll tell you in the guide is critical to your success and no one's really talking about

many of these issues for a variety of reasons. So in the guide we'll cover the 6 most common

misconceptions that cost most business owners a fortune in this economy, the 5 skills that will

determine the success of your business over the next 18 months, and lots more great information for

taking your business to the next level. Before we close the show I like to remind you that that little voice

that we had talked about that's constantly nagging you, trying to question you, trying to make you

question yourself and your mission, trying to talk you out of your dreams, we all have it. It's common.

Keep going. No matter where you're at as an entrepreneur or what size your business is, you're an

inspiration to those around you to go after their dreams too, so keep it up. Our quote for today comes

from Jim Rohn, and the quote reads, "Either you run the day, or the day runs you."

In the next episode we're going to connect you with the brilliant Andy Drish. Andy is a professional

speaker, direct response copywriter, and bad ass business coach, his words not mine. His purpose is

to unleash the genius already living inside of you. So as always, there's lots of great stuff for growing

your business in the next episode.

This is Travis Lane Jenkins signing off for now. To your incredible success... Pamela, can you sing, do

you want to sing a song?

Pamela: I am not going to sing because I care about the ears of your listeners but thanks for asking.

End of Interview

Travis: Oh, that's too kind of you, thank you very much. Take care guys.






How We Can Help You

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Travis Lane Jenkins

Business Mentor-Turn Around Specialist

Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show

“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your Business"

http://www.rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com/biz-accelerator

http://theentrepreneursradioshow.com/

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 062 Pamela Slim

Small Business & Entrepreneurship

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