T h e A x e F i l e s - E p . 9 9 : S te v e K e r r · T h e A x e F i l e s - E p . 9 9 : S te v e K e r r R e l e a se d N o ve mb e r 2 3 , 2 0 1 6 [ 0 0 : 0 0 : 0 0 ] D A V I

The Axe Files - Ep. 99: Steve Kerr Released November 23, 2016 [00:00:00] DAVID AXELROD, "THE AXE FILE" HOST: So Steve Kerr, welcome. You know, I read a column that some columnist wrote in October saying Steve Kerr should run for president of the United States. And I was thinking about the negative ad, you know, Steve Kerr born in Lebanon -- STEVE KERR, NBA COACH: Yeah. AXELROD: -- raised among Muslims in Egypt. KERR: Yeah, yeah. AXELROD: Is he really an American? KERR: Right, right. AXELROD: And so on, but I don't think most people know about your journey and where and how you grew up. And maybe you could just talk a little bit about that. KERR: Sure, yeah. Yeah, I've been incredibly lucky in my life to live the way I have, to grow up in the family that I grew up in, as you said born in Beirut. My dad was teaching at the American University in Beirut at that time. And he was a Middle East Political Science Professor ultimately took a job at UCLA. And we moved there when I was just a year or two old. And spent most of my childhood in Los Angeles but my dad would take sabbaticals, so we spent time in France, Tunisia, three years in Egypt. And while we were living overseas we would travel as well in the summertime. So I really, you know, got my education from traveling around the world living in different cultures. And there's probably no better education than that so, brilliant fortune. AXELROD: Where would learn from? What did you learn about those countries and cultures, and what did you learn about ours? KERR: Well, it was interesting because Cairo was the biggest influence on me, because I was a junior high, high school age, and that was late '70s. Americans were beloved in Egypt. I could walk down the street in Cairo without somebody rubbing my blonde hair and smiling, and -- but we were group of Americans that were there with kids from all over the world. I went to an American school CAC was the name of the -- Cairo American College. It's in the outskirts of Cairo, in a suburb called Maadi. And I had friends from literally all over the world. The American kids were mostly oil companies, diplomats, kids or academics like my mom and dad. And -- But we met kids from everywhere we interacted with them, a lot of different languages were spoken at the school. I actually learned Arabic halfway decently. I could get around -- AXELROD: Did you? KERR: -- and, you know, we would do all kinds of incredible stuff that nobody else would have the chance to do it.

1 Ep. 99 – Steve Kerr

AXELROD: Who would -- And how much contact did you have with Egyptians when you are there? KERR: Lots, because there was a big Egyptian population at the school. And the sports teams that I played on, we would play against Egyptian schools and club teams. And -- AXELROD: You were a basketball player from -- in your early age? KERR: Yeah, I played everything growing up back then, everybody. You know, you just play whatever sport was in season. And now it's so different, you play the same sport you're around. But -- so I played some soccer, and baseball, and football, and basketball, but basketball was always my favorite. And I really fell in love with it at UCLA when my dad was a professor there. AXELROD: Not a bad spot for you. KERR: Not bad. John Wooden heyday, you know, I admire earliest memory of the UCLA game was when Bill Walton was playing there. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: It's 1972, I believe. They played -- they are number one in the country. Every game was electric sold out, every -- the student section was incredible. The band, it was -- AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: -- it was heaven. I walked in the first time and I couldn't believe, and I fell in love with it. And I'll never forget, I don't remember anything about the game, except for walking out with my dad. And UCLA had beaten Maryland. Maryland was number two in the country with John Lucas. They had Len Elmore -- AXELROD: Len Elmore. KERR: -- yup, and another guy, Tom McMillen maybe AXELROD: No, McMillen was in Columbia. KERR: Yeah, he was a Columbia, OK. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: They had another guy who played in the NBA. Anyway, UCLA fans were so spoiled they won 7 straight national titles. And I walk out in UCLA and won by like two points. And, I'm walking with my dad like the guy next to is -- says, "What is wrong with our team?" And the guy, who sit next to him says, "I don't know, we're now like we were last year!" And he starts ripping into wall, and there for doing that and I turn to my dad and said, "Dad, we won!" I don't see how (ph) the expectations are a little higher than that. AXELROD: Probably a pretty good lesson for winning 73 games and not winning the championship.


KERR: Yeah, yeah. AXELROD: And I am sure there are people who were saying the same thing. KERR: For sure, that's part of it. But those are good problems to have. AXELROD: Yeah, high-class problems. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: You know, when I was a -- student at the University of Chicago, my roommate went to Providence College. When Marvin Barnes and Ernie DiGregorio over there, and they were in the final four. And his parents had relationship with Providence, and they gave us these tickets to go to final four. [00:05:03] We hitch-hiked them from Chicago to games at the Checkered Dome and saying -- KERR: Yeah, sure. AXELROD: -- listen to this ol' Barne (ph). KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: And in that final game, Bill Walton -- that was a game where he had against, I guess, Memphis State Larry Kenon, and those guys (ph) -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: Twenty-one of 22 -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- he hit. And it was maybe the most -- I mean Michael Jordan for 13 years -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- in Chicago. That was maybe the most perfect game I've ever seen anybody play. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- he had a lot -- bunch of assists. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: His baskets were mostly jump shots and bank shots not -- KERR: He couldn't dunk. AXELROD: He couldn't dunk back then.


KERR: So he had to lay it in. I remember watching the game on TV. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: It was this, was that '72? AXELROD: '73. KERR: '73, so I was, you know, seven/eight years old, and -- but that was the reason I fell in love with basketball. I was growing up in that environment. And then my parents would send me the John Wooden basketball camp -- AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: -- in the in the summer. And just absolutely fell in love with it and what an era to grow up. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: I play as a (sportsman). AXELROD: Well, and was on this podcast and talked about stealing -- not stealing but it wouldn't tell them you can't be involved in antiwar sit-ins. Just write a letter and express yourself on this. So, he went down to the coach's office and got a sheet of paper with Wooden. It was Wooden stationary, the secretary gave it to him, and he wrote a letter calling Nixon a war criminal and asking him to resign on John Wooden stationary. He got all the other players to sign it. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: And Wooden was not amused by. But he said forget the letter, once you grow up go post in Boulevard. KERR: I remember the scene of Walton sitting on Wilshire Boulevard yelling at Chuck Young, the Chancellor of UCLA. And it was a great documentary on HBO. Probably 10 to 12 years ago, it's about the UCLA dynasty and dealt a lot with that Vietnam Era. And the protest and the dichotomy that wouldn't presented as this iconic figure, kind of cut straight out of the '50s. AXELROD: Yes. KERR: And with this incredibly virtuous way, coaching this group of players in the midst of the Vietnam War who were kind of, you know, trying to figure out how the world works. And Wooden was just an amazing figure for so many reasons. But I highly recommend that documentary. AXELROD: Well, what's extraordinary is everybody loved -- I mean his players revered him. KERR: Yeah.


AXELROD: I mean, Bill Walton was the ultimate renegade. KERR: Right. AXELROD: And he revered John Wooden until the day John Wooden die. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: So he still talks about him reverentially. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: So, I want to tackle more about politics and sports. But I just want return to your years overseas. And ask you -- I mean there two it works. One is you get an appreciation for other cultures, but you also get an appreciation for other -- how other cultures see the United States. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: And so, I guess, I'm in interested in that angle as well. What did you learn about America living overseas? KERR: Well, I saw poverty up close. I mean, we lived in a nice suburb but everywhere you went in Cairo at the time, you'd see poor people living on the streets. There was an entire community trying to remember the name of the suburb of Cairo that basically, it's called the City of the Dead because it was -- people who lived basically in the cemetery and underneath these mausoleums. And we saw this everyday and would see beggars, you know, asking for "bakshish", you know, that was a word, you know, for, you know, do you -- can I have some kind of some money, can I have something. We saw this every single day and it struck me because, you know, growing up in Pacific Palisades in Los Angeles, you know, going to UCLA Campus for basketball, I didn't see any of that. I did, you know, I was at, you know, middle-class kid growing up in a wonderful environment. So I saw poverty. A lot of people see it in our country but I never saw it in our country. I saw it there. But I also saw a totally different way of life. I saw like kids playing soccer on the street with two rocks as the goal and a bundled up rag for a ball. But I saw people, as I said from all over the world. People were so nice to us. American citizens as I said were beloved. And my parents had this really eclectic group of friends who had barbecues all the time. People from all over the world and it just -- it taught me over other cultures, it taught me about the compassion and an understanding that, you know, everybody grows up in a different environment. We all see the world differently. And so, I think it made me more compassionate. And it also made me appreciate our own country for not only the comforts of the freedom that we live in. But just for the joy that we were allowed everyday, a lot of, you know, most people don't grow up with great joy in their lives. They are just struggling to survive and that's struck me pretty hard at a young age. [00:09:59] AXELROD: Your dad went back to Lebanon to become president of the American University in Beirut and had a tragic end there. Talk about that and what happened? And how did you find out about


it? KERR: Well, he was -- AXELROD: Why he go back by the way? KERR: Well, he grew up in Lebanon. His parents were missionaries after World War I. They went to Turkey and Armenia. They helped with the Armenian orphanage and they are relief workers. And during the Turkish-Armenian Holocaust and, you know, once the war ended, they were -- they traveled, they ended up in Beirut. I think actually, I think some of the orphanages that they helped were in Lebanon, across the border. And so, they fell love with Lebanon and settled there. And they became employees of the American University, my grandfather was a chemistry professor, my grandmother was the Dean of Women. And they raise their family there. So my dad was born and raised in Beirut. Went to boarding school on the East Coast, Deerfield, and went to Princeton. And -- But went back to AUB where he met my mom. My mom was on her junior year abroad from Occidental College. That's where they met. And so, it's incredible story. But his dream job once he became a professor of UCLA, his dream job was always to go back and be the president of the American University in Beirut. So, when he finally had the opportunity. He took it despite of -- AXELROD: He was at a very dangerous time (ph). KERR: He was, yeah. And for the most part, you know, up until that time, the university had been kind of an oasis. There had been problems at the Embassy and, you know, with the any military presence. You know, there was a lot of fear at that time. But the University up until the early '80s had been pretty much left alone. But just before and as he took the job his predecessor was kidnapped. And so, you know, he had already taken the job. He didn't want to back out. He spent the first, I think, nine months or so on, the job in New York while the political circumstances quieted down. And then, he ultimately went there. And I was there with him, and my mom, and my younger brother. My younger brother was freshman in high school. So, he went to live with them. I was heading off to University of Arizona as a freshman. And so, I went to stay there for about a week and see the campus. And that would that have been in August of 1983, and he was assassinated in January of '84. So he was only on campus for, you know, four months. AXELROD: Was he worried? Was he frightened going back? KERR: He was. You know, my sister tells a story about, you know, spending a night with my dad in a hotel in New York before he went over there. And he expressed his fear to her. He didn't say much to the rest of us. And I think also we had -- AXELROD: She is older? KERR: She is older, yeah. And we had that typical sort of insulation when nothing bad has ever


happened to you. You think that's not going to happen to me. It's not going to happen to us. And so, we had some of that I think. And my dad was beloved in the Middle East. He spoke fluent Arabic. He was a champion for, you know, the Palestinian Cause. If anything, we were a little more worried about, you know, right-wing, Israeli politics, than anything going on in Lebanon. I remember when I was about in Eight Grade, our car in Pacific Palisades was firebombed by a right-wing zealot with the Jewish Defense League. So we had an experience with -- of fear. But it just, you know, it wasn't something that caused us to say. You know, boy this is -- you know, this is really dangerous it was more like. I think, we think he will be OK. He thought he's going to be OK. Again, he grew up there, he spoke fluent Arabic -- AXELROD: Was he a target simply because he was an American? KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: And this was two years after the Marine barracks was -- KERR: I don't even think it was two years after. I think it was two months after? AXELROD: Is that right? KERR: Yeah. Yeah. I think that happened in October of 1983. AXELROD: Could be, yes. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: That could be right. KERR: And the Embassy had been bombed somewhere in that time as well. And so, all the stuff is now going on around the city. And, yeah, we were absolutely concerned but when he first took the job, we were sort of probably disillusioned. AXELROD: Was your mom over there with him? KERR: She went with him when he left, when he took over on campus for good which was August of '83. [00:15:02] So my mom, my younger brother and I all went. I stayed for about a week just to visit and then I went off to college. And that was a story in and of itself. It took me three days to get out of the country because of shelling and that was going on during the Civil War. I mean, you look back on it and you go, "My God, what the hell are we doing there?, you know. And it's -- But it's hard to explain but at the time, I think my dad felt relatively safe and insulated because of his experience there. Because of how many friends he had in the community. And because he was part of the university which, as I said, was, you know, educating thousands of prominent Arabs from all over Middle East. And so, we felt like he was somewhat safe and obviously he wasn't.


AXELROD: You got a call at school? KERR: I got this call January 18th. A friend who worked at the university named Bhahi Samonian (ph), a good Armenian name, our family has this incredible Armenian connection because of the work my grandparents did. I still have Armenian people come up to me to this day all over the country say, "Thank you for your grandparents work". It's really a source of pride for the family. But Mr. Samonian (ph) worked at the university, a good family friend. And he called me in the middle of the night. It's like 3:00 in the morning in my dorm. He gave me the news. AXELROD: And, I mean, this -- I don't mean to -- it's got to be a pain -- a very painful memory, were you surprised when you heard the news or was it? KERR: Shocked, yeah. AXELROD: There was -- so you really did expect -- you knew that he was vulnerable but you have this sense that it would be OK. KERR: I had this sense that he was going to be OK. You know, but, again, when you look back on it, the Marine barracks were bombed in October, two/three months before, I think over 300 Marines were killed. AXELROD: Right. KERR: It's devastating. The Embassy had been bombed. So, there was danger but, again, there is that sort of innocent, sort of shield of protection that we all kind of think we have until something horrible happens. And then you realize, "Oh my god", and it's too late. But it was a really difficult situation. My dad wanted to be there. It was his dream job. If he wanted to help people there, he had loved that university. And he was in heaven while he was doing his job that it only lasted a few months. AXELROD: Were your 18, 19? KERR: I was 18, a freshman. AXELROD: 18. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: And you guys -- he was -- I read somewhere that he was very much your counselor on the whole basketball thing. Where you go to school, he was like an advocate for you. KERR: Yeah, he was. I didn't have -- I only have two scholarship offers out of high school both came late in the summer at the last second. It was Arizona and Cal State Fullerton and he helped me, because Arizona is going to stop calling me and I thought they had pulled the scholarship. I didn't even know if they were going to offer one actually. AXELROD: Lute Olson, classic great college basketball coach --


KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- was the coach at the time. KERR: He became -- He was just in his first year and the program was in shambles and he had an extra scholarship. And he kind of -- he saw me playing in a summer league in L.A., late that summer, and he kind of offered me a scholarship at the last second. But there was some confusion in my dad, kind of stepped in and called everybody on both sides and, you know, wanted to get the lay of the land and he asked me where I wanted to go. And I said, "It's not even close. I want to go to Arizona." And, so he called Lute directly and said, "What's going on? Do you have a scholarship or not. We're kind of confused." And Lute said, "Oh yeah, we do." And I think Lute may have been considering somebody else. And, because I really wasn't -- honestly, I was not that good, this is not a false modesty. I was -- I kind of late bloomer. But he helped to kind of facilitated and I ended up getting the scholarship with the last second. And he came and visited me on campus in October, maybe it was early November. We were practicing and scrimmaging and stuff and he spent a couple nights to my dorm with me. And so, it was nice to at least have him there. He never saw me play game but he got to visit me on campus. AXELROD: You know, I lost my own father suddenly when I was at sophomore in college. And the thing that struck -- the thing that was hardest for me was not having an opportunity to sort of say goodbye -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- and express those things that, you know, you kinda take for granted. But I also kind of felt all of a sudden like that was a line of demarcation between being a kid -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- and growing up. KERR: Yeah, for sure. I have felt that way too. And there was -- there were lots of things that I thought about afterwards, you know? I didn't give him my hug when he left. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: You know? And he -- I remember he left my dorm room in a typically Kerr fashion. [00:20:00] He left two of his suits in my closet. When I runs in the family, I leave stuff all the time now. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: And he came 15 minutes later and that was the last time I saw him. I didn't give him a hug, you know? AXELROD: Yeah.


KERR: And it bothers me to this day. I didn't say goodbye, and I think about him all the time. Because of what's happened in my career is so far-fetched. It really is. Like I, you know, I was just hoping I could actually in the rotation at Arizona and play, you know, maybe for a couple of years and earn some playing time and to end up having this career. And not being able to share any of it with him. He would have just loved every second of it. And I would have loved sharing with him. AXELROD: I can't tell you how much I identify with that. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: You know, because I think my dad who was an immigrant would have been stunned that I ended up working -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- for president of the United States. KERR: Right, right. AXELROD: So, yeah. Those are -- it -- that -- that's the pain or not knowing your family and not knowing your kids and -- yes. KERR: Yeah, yeah. AXELROD: It's tough. I want to go from the sacred to the profane, and take a short break for word from our sponsor. KERR: OK. AXELROD: And we'll be right back with Steve Kerr. KERR: Where is the name Axelrod from? AXELROD: It -- well he was from what is now part of Ukraine. KERR: OK. AXELROD: And, you know, from the Pilgrims, they were -- he was 12 when he came over. KERR: Where was that family name back then? AXELROD: It was Axelrod. KERR: The same? AXELROD: Yeah, it was Axelrod. But he -- he will appreciate as he came to New York, and before he spoke English. He started playing baseball. Played with Hank Greenberg and ended up as an all city pitcher.


KERR: Wow. AXELROD: And got his college scholarship. KERR: In what, in Chicago or -- AXELROD: At LAU. And this was in New York. He grew up -- KERR: Oh, like Long Island. AXELROD: Yeah, he grew up in the Bronx. KERR: Black Birds? AXELROD: Yeah, that's what they are. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Claire B was both for basketball -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- and the baseball coach there. KERR: So did you grow up in Chicago or -- AXELROD: I grew up in New York. I came to Chicago to go to school. KERR: Where would you go? AXELROD: To University of Chicago which I have this institute there now. But now -- KERR: Oh great. AXELROD: -- yeah I got there, and got a job as a newspaper reporter ended up staying there so -- we all set? So, Steve, I want to -- I know I'm going back and forth between basketball and more substantive -- KERR: Sure. AXELROD: -- not -- but elements of your life or -- KERR: Yeah, yeah sure. AXELROD: -- non-basketball elements of your life. But you have see in the Middle East kind of explode -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- a reason. First of all, was it -- I read somewhere that was a forerunner of Hezbollah that was suspected in your dad's assassination?


KERR: Yeah. Yeah. Iranian ties. We actually ended up suing the Iranian government. It would have been about 2002 in Washington, D.C. They didn't, you know, nobody showed up from their side. It was more -- as my brother called that it was pretherapy. You know, we all got to get up on the stand and talk about how much it hurt us. But it was basically Hezbollah and it was the -- it was done because of -- he was the most prominent American in the city. And he was killed only because of his nationality being American. And it was ironic, because he had spent his whole life helping Arabs and helping trying to foster peace in the Middle East. You know, that was his entire area of focus. AXELROD: But that may have been in some ways also an impetus because perhaps the most dangerous -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- people who are the ones who could build bridges. KERR: Sure, it's like Yitzhak Rabin. AXELROD: Right, exactly. The same -- prior to single most -- since someone killed the Archduke Ferdinand. Probably the -- that most -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- single most meaningful assassination -- on the globe was that of Yitzhak Rabin. KERR: Right. AXELROD: And for just the same -- KERR: Yeah, for trying to foster peace. AXELROD: Exactly, exactly. You mentioned your brother. Your brother was in -- on the National Security Council -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- under the Clinton Administration. KERR: Yeah. Yeah. AXELROD: Did he go -- what led him to that career? I want to talk about all your successful siblings and ask what the heck happened to you. KERR: My mom will be thrilled. Everytime somebody asked my mom about me, she says, "Let me tell you about Steve's siblings". She's very proud of all of us. AXELROD: Yeah, well -- and deservedly. So -- did your brother did -- some of these experiences lead


your brother into an interest in National Security? KERR: Yeah, I think so. He went to University of Arizona and he end up at the Thunderbird Business School in Phoenix, and -- but he got a job. It was a, you know, low-level job in the NSC. And -- But he was right there in the situation room and he had worked with a lot of people who were, you know, right in the mix. And President Clinton wouldn't have really recognized him. [00:24:57] But I'll never forget when we played the Bullets, I was with the Bulls. It would have been I think '96. We went to Washington and President Clinton came in our locker room and he was so prepped for every meeting. He knew everything about everybody. So somebody in his prep team told him that my brother worked in the National Security Council. So he came up to my locker and he said, "Steve, your brother Andrew is doing such a fine job." My brother said, "He would have no idea who I was." But he was -- Andrew was there for I think four or five years. I may be wrong on that but it was great. Every time we'd come to town, he would take our team on a tour of the White House, back then it was so easy to walk, you just walk through one metal detector. And Toni Kukoc, who a Croatian teammate, and, yes, Chicago, one time we were standing in the Oval Office with my brother about five of us on this tour and he said, "I cannot believe this." He said, "In my home country, I couldn't even come within one block of presidential palace and here I am standing in the president's office." And was a great symbol of American freedom. AXELROD: Yeah. Yeah. And you have a sister who's active in politics in Britain? KERR: Yeah, in England. Her husband is a professor at Cambridge and she's a local politician and kind of like a city council would be here. And then, my older brother is a professor at Michigan State in agricultural economics, whatever that is. I was telling him, whatever that means. But he does a lot of work overseas, he travels everywhere. He does research on Third World agriculture in the economy and how different cultures can help make the best use of their resources. And if you ask me anything more about it I wouldn't know. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: But he does a lot of important stuff. AXELROD: You know what, it seems like and with climate change and everything that's becoming even more… KERR: That's right. AXELROD: ... significant and important area of the study. So what would you have done, you have this -- I'm Bull's season ticket holder, have been for 40 years. So I saw you hit a lot of shots and you have pretty natural three-point shot still. Are you the leader or you're one of the leaders in the history of the NBA? KERR: Yeah, in terms of the percentage and in that's -- that was kind of my game and I played a lot of great teams, I got a lot of open shots.


AXELROD: Yes. KERR: So I was blessed playing with Michael and Scottie Pippen, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, I was blessed. And then, the best thing for me was I played for Hall of Fame coaches. You know, I played for Lute Olson, Lenny Wilkens, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Gregg Popovich and Phil Jackson who are really two incredible mentors for me along with Lute. And so, I, you know, going to John Wooden basketball, like if anybody ever wanted to coach and they want to say all right, "I want a mentoring process". You could look at my career and that would be the blueprint. I mean, it's amazing that I was able to play under all these incredible coaches. AXELROD: And, you know, you talked about -- each of them had a very distinct personality, you talked about Jackson and Popovich, you know, arguably the two -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- among, certainly among the top five coaches of all time maybe. What you learned from them? KERR: I learned perspective, life perspective. One of the things that happens when you become a professional athlete is it consumes you and it's one of the reasons you -- a lot of people make it. It's all consuming and if you're competitive and you're passionate about it then you're going to attack it and that's why you work so hard out it, that's why you make it. But then you're there and you're consumed by it. And every little detail can bother you if you're self-conscious at all. And what I learned from those guys was, you know, take the game, you know, Phil had it was like a Zen quote. It was something to the effect that you don't treat your job everyday, as if the fate of the world dependent on it but know that it really doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. And -- I wasn't eloquent enough with that statement but that was the point of what he tried to do with us was focus on what you're doing, attack it, work at it, but we're playing basketball, you know. AXELROD: Right. KERR: It's a sport. It's got to be fun. And Phil and Pop both had wonderful senses of humor. And so humor was a big part of their coaching styles. And Pop was so similar to Phil in his perspective but totally different in his approach in the way he coached. But both of them made these huge impacts on me and on my coaching style and on my life. [00:30:02] And what really connected them even though they're very different human beings was their interest in other things besides basketball. AXELROD: Yeah, right. KERR: Phil had this fascination with Native American history and spirituality, and incorporated that into his coaching. Pop has this great fascination with politics and the military. AXELROD: He was in the Air Force -- KERR: Yeah.


AXELROD: -- and he was an intelligence officer in the Air Force for five years before he turn to basketball. KERR: Exactly. And, you know, you going to Pop's office. He's got CNN on. And I'm not just saying that. AXELROD: No. Yeah. KERR: If you were there. AXELROD: A man of implacable taste. KERR: That's right. But meaning he doesn't have ESPN. AXELROD: Right. KERR: He's got, he's got politics on. AXELROD: I have to tell you just to interject that the funny thing is, when we were, when we would travel with the president when he was campaigning. He insisted that we not have any news on that. KERR: Yeah. Yeah. AXELROD: He was at ESPN on. KERR: Yeah. Sure. AXELROD: Probably for the same reason. KERR: Right. He want to get way from what consumes your life. AXELROD: Right. KERR: But I -- but that was a big thing for me to start my coaching career, to have learned that perspective of, you know, how can you teacher players that "Man, this is important to play together as a team, to sacrifice, to work and try to win". But man this doesn't mean anything. You know, go home to your family and spend time with your family, and take them out to dinner. And enjoy your kids. And so that balance, can you find that balance. And that's what I try to do as a coach. AXELROD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember from those years that Phil used to, when you guys went off on your -- what they call the circus tour because -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- the United Center was booked for the circus and you'd be gone for quite a long time. Usually the West Coast, he would give you all books to read. KERR: Yup.


AXELROD: Do you members some of the books that he gave you? KERR: Yeah. He tried to give people books based on their background. And he knew that I had gone to University of Arizona. And I had a home in Tucson at the time. And so he gave me, he gave me some Cormac McCarthy books. All the pretty horses he gave me. And he gave me some Tony Hillerman books. They were Southwest-based novels, mysteries. And -- but he -- it was really great what he did. He kind gave some different books to different people based on what he thought. AXELROD: So interesting because my -- I mean, I have, I've managed other things not camp -- not sports teams, but the ability to identify those things that are unique in people and appreciate them seems like a really important quality in a coach. And choosing the appropriate book for people certainly reflects. And now, did you read the books? KERR: Oh yeah. Yeah. AXELROD: And did your teammates? KERR: Some of them just depended. Some guys did, some guys didn't. AXELROD: I want to know what books Dennis Rodman was reading. KERR: Gosh, what did he -- what did Phil give him? I should remember those, because I remember it was a topic. We were wondering the same thing, what's Phil going to give Dennis? I can't, but I can't remember. But Phil never, you know, he didn't give us like book reports or anything. AXELROD: Yeah. You just… KERR: It's just, you know, if we read them great. If not, it was his way of showing his compassion and his care for us, and it was what made him. It's what Popovich a great coach, as he went way beyond anything about basketball. It was about his compassion and care for you as a human being. AXELROD: Yeah. And I remember I was in the pavilion, this was before you got to Bulls, the first time they won a championship. And mayor or somebody invited me to be there. And the parade wasn't anything like the Cubs parade which you see in Chicago. KERR: Yeah. Yeah. AXELROD: But it was pretty wild. And fans were reaching for the players. And Phil stood by the door as each player came in to ask if they were okay, because he was worried that they were get manhandled -- KERR: Oh yeah. AXELROD: -- by the crowd. And it struck me that what a filial role he was playing. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: You know, mentioning the Cubs and then, I don't want you to move on and ask you about Michael Jordan, playing with Michael Jordan. Newly designated Medal of Freedom Winner, I see he is


going to pick that up next week from the president. But the Cubs, as you know, a kind of epic drought hundred eight years between world championships. And Joe Maddon is the manager that came in the last two years. And what -- it strikes me that he's a lot like the personalities that you're talking about. And he said -- someone told me he never talks about winning. And I asked him about that. He said, "Yeah because winning, every wants to win, but when if you think just about winning and losing, just makes you tight." So I say, "Focus on process to do those things that, you know, you need to do. And there really the worker won't work". KERR: Right, right. AXELROD: And that – and they -- he had an extraordinarily young team that performed at a very high level. [00:35:03] And they didn't seem to feel pressure. And I think it has a lot to do with the way he managed that. KERR: Agreed. Agree. I'm huge Maddon fan. And when I saw him this summer, this past summer in San Diego it's where I live in the off-season. And my sons are huge Cubs fan, because he grew up in Chicago and I take him to Wrigley all the time. So my son is, you know, he is 24 now and, you know, he -- this was, you know, the season for every Cubs fan, right? AXELROD: Yes. KERR: The system and an incredible year. So he and I went and sat with Joe Maddon. It's one of the benefits of my job. I have access to, you know, dugouts and locker rooms. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: So I wanted to pick his brain. And it's one of the things that really attracted me to Joe is exactly what you talked about, the process over result and make the process interesting, right. He's got like pajama days for… AXELROD: Yeah, right. KERR: -- the travel in one season. And he's a little nuts, he also is. AXELROD: Yeah. He is. KERR: And Phil was a little, little crazy, you know -- AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: -- and in a good way. You make it fun. You make it interesting, take the pressure off. And maybe the best thing I learned that night when I was in that locker room was, I went across to the other locker, the Padres and I met Andy Green, really young guy, a great guy. It's what -- he asked me about Maddon. And I said, "Yeah, it was really fun talking with him."


And he said, "You know, what I love about Maddon? He plays music in the clubhouse win or lose." AXELROD: Right. KERR: And he said most owners would walk into that locker room after a loss in hear music and go "Why are they listening to music? They just lost they should be angry?" There's kind of this unwritten rule in sports, that if you lose you have to be this disbanded. AXELROD: Mournful. KERR: Yes, mournful. And most managers, most coaches. And I should say most, but a lot of them coach out of fear. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: Because it's an incredible job, and it pays really well. And -- but if you -- you can lose it so quickly. People get fired, you know, less than a year in if things don't go well. So a lot of coaches coach out of fear, Phil never did. Maddon does not coach out of fear. AXELROD: No. KERR: He doesn't care if the owner walks in and their playing music out after lost, because he knows it's good for the players especially in baseball. A great team is going to lose 70 games, right. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: You go 92 and 70 and won the division. Well that's 70 times when you've lost, but Andy Green was marveling it, the fact that Maddon just didn't care about always sort of norms and, you know, sort of expected behavior. And so, everyday as you said it was not about the results. It was about the process. They played music and have fun and joke around. They do this pajama parties on the road. He bring in like zoo animals to the clubhouse before game. AXELROD: Yeah, right. KERR: And he is basically -- AXELROD: Yeah. He had a magician at a 5 game losing streak. And he brought a magician into the clubhouse to entertainment the team before the next game which they won. KERR: Which they won. Phil used to burn incense in our locker room after a two game losing streak. We got to get the evil spirits out of the locker room. That stuff is great, you know, it just keeps it entertaining and loose and it focuses on the process. And everybody, no matter what job they do I think they're going to do better with it if they're enjoying the process, you know. AXELROD: Yeah. I want to ask you about Michael Jordan. I -- when I have Bill Walton on the podcast, I try to get him to answer this question. But he didn't really -- I don't think he absorbed the question, because it seems so kind of hard to fathom to him. Because I said, how do people there -- all you guys in the NBA while you -- there so many talented, physically talented people. It seems to me that the people


who separate out in every sport are the people who react differently to pressure. And who are able to elevate their game when the pressure ratchets up. And Jordan, you know, used to say, "Well the game slows down for me". What is it about, the really special players and you've got some of them on your team, Curry and others. KERR: Yeah. Yeah. AXELROD: What is it about really special athletes that allow them to -- KERR: To perform under pressure. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: Yes, and not everybody does. And I was a player who felt the pressure early in my career and tightened up. And then sort of figured it out later in my career and loosened up. And realize you really do have to say, "Screw it, just, you know, go out play and go for it and whatever happens, happens." But I was pretty self-conscious as a young player. Some guys have never felt that way. They're -- like Steph Curry has never been self-conscious about a shot in his life. And it's a wonderful -- AXELROD: That's inherent, by the way. KERR: Yes. And it's a wonderful quality. AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: And one that you have to learn quickly as his coach, because he's going to take some lousy shots. AXELROD: But the percentages are on your side? KERR: Yeah. They are. And so, you live with the lousy shots, understanding that it's part of who he is. It's part of what makes him who is. He is fearless. [00:40:00] And what's great about that is that, you know, he didn't worry about repercussions, you know. Michael never worried about what people are going to say after the fact. But there a lot of players, like I said myself included early in my career, who were thinking about the repercussions and didn't want to be the goat, and didn't want to screw up for the team and for the fans. And that's actually a conversation that a fascinating conversation I had with Pete Carroll, Seahawks coach, about. And we both are huge fans of the book, "The Inner Game Of Tennis", which deals with this exact topic, your body and your mind and that's what every athlete needs to do at the highest level, is integrate your body and your mind so that you use the knowledge that your brain has with the natural instinct that your body has. It's a hard thing to may come together. But there are some athletes like Steph who just do it naturally. Michael just did naturally. It's hard to explain.


AXELROD: I remember the one game playoff game in the finals in Utah where he stole the ball from Karl Malone at the end of the game. And he talk about afterwards and he had thought all through. He said, I know they are going to go to him. I could come up on the blind side. And it's, you know, and I will tell you as a Bulls fan, I always, we always thought we had a chance to win when he was on the court because he would not let them let you guys lose. That he was so willful about winning about, about just like dominating the game that he would find a way. KERR: We knew we were going to win because of him because, you know, and he wasn't always the easiest teammate. You know, he ... AXELROD: Hard up. KERR: He was hard on everybody. He made every practice hard. He talked trash to everybody. His theory was if you can't take the pressure from me in a practice, you're not going to be able to take the pressure of Game Seven of the NBA Finals. So wasn't always fun, but everyone of us knew how dominant he was, and how good he was, and we've -- we knew we were going to win every time out there on, you know, especially in the playoffs. We just knew it was the ultimate comfort level. He was so dominant physically but also emotionally on the floor. I think teams and players all over the league. AXELROD: Have you seen any player -- I know LeBron James was obviously a big factor in what happened. But with you guys last year but is there any player who approaches Jordan in your -- KERR: I think LeBron comes close physically, others as physical dominance with LeBron that's just palpable on the floor. You could feel his presence. Kobe skill-wise was similar, he'd hit these impossible shots. AXELROD: And mindset-wise, he was a pretty -- KERR: And mindset -- AXELROD: -- hard minded guy. KERR: -- ruthless. And from what I understand similar teammate in terms of maybe wasn't easy but he had great faith in him. To me Michael sort of a combination of -- Kobe and LeBron, he had the skill set and the physical dominance. And, you know, he was undefeated in the Finals. He never lost in the Finals 6-0. But, you know, I can't speak for '60s and early '70s. AXELROD: No, I'm just talking about in your experience. KERR: Yeah, my experience. He is the greatest of all time. AXELROD: Just take another quick break, and then I want to come back to politics for a minute. KERR: Sure.


AXELROD: You were very outspoken after this last election. And very passionate about your concerns about Donald Trump campaign he ran what the implications are. Why did you decide to speak out? KERR: Because I was asked. You know, it's funny, I get people all the time say, "You know, stick to sports, you know," you know, not to my face but I'll read it, you know, maybe on Twitter or whatever. People will, you know, I'll just here maybe my family was, hurry up, so and so was saying you should stick to sport. Well, people ask us, why shouldn't I answer, right? I have this forum, it's – if there's something important to speak on then I think we should speak on it. In this case, I felt it was important to address not the politics of the election but the nature of the cycle of the election cycle. It's the first time in my life the election was not about policy or even like personality. It was about anger, it was about fear. And I was disgusted. I don't care what side of the political spectrum, your people vote for all kinds of reasons, right? [00:45:00] You vote for your pocketbook. You vote for abortion rights or gay marriage, or you vote for certain social policies were maybe foreign-policy may be worried about this or that, and that's what it's should be about. You should vote based on policy. But this election had nothing to do with policy. It had to do with hatred and fear, and we had a candidate who stirred that up. And I thought it was horrible president for a country. AXELROD: You -- we had this discussion earlier about your experience as a kid. There was an element of Islamophobia that appeal the notion of banning Muslims and so. How much did your upbringing, your experience inform your feelings about that, because you seem very personally offended. KERR: Yeah. It definitely influenced me because I did grow up in the Middle East for many years, and made a lot of friends in Egypt, and I've got lots of friends now, American friends, who are from Lebanon, from anywhere in the Middle East. I go to the wonderful Middle Eastern restaurant, Portland, every time we go there. And I've got these amazing friends who cook me my Lebanese food, and we hang out in their Lebanese origin or Americans. These are the people who Donald Trump is talking about in terms of, you know, internment camps like I shouldn't say that yet because I'll know if Trump is actually mentioned it. It's being talked about in the circles but the only reason it's being talked about is because of the nature of the political process that we've just been through. So it's personally offensive. It goes against everything. AXELROD: Have you heard from some of your friends? KERR: Yeah, I have. AXELROD: Are they fearful? KERR: I think people are genuinely fearful, you know. And I heard immediately like within days of the election, and I think we all have heard stories of hate crimes, you know, whether it is language or, you know, acts of hatred. That it seems to me that have been sort of justified by this process we've been


through. If the president of the country can make remarks that are hateful and offensive than it sort of rubbers tamps it for a lot of people, and that's scary. AXELROD: What about among the players that you lead, has there been a reaction to election? KERR: Yeah. We talk the next day after the election as a team. And I remember, I just ask the players how do you feel and Steph said, "Weird, I feel weird." I think that's how we all felt. It was weird. And as I said, may not, you know, politics. It's the quorum, right? It's a level of respect and dignity that should go along with this process, that should set an example for everybody in this country. And there was none of that and instead we've sort of incited this sphere in this hatredness. And it's scary because there's a lot of talk about what's next whether it's, you know, suppressing freedom of speech with the media, or internment camps for Muslims. I mean it's ... AXELROD: Yes, in fairness, that was -- a guy was in the Trump camp, as you pointed out, he hasn't accepted (ph) that. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: You mentioned that people say, "We'll stick to sports. Don't talk." Obviously, you're very fluent and thoughtful on a lot of things and you have experiences that inform your point of view but -- so what should the role of people in sports be or celebrities generally in this discourse and how much of people care? KERR: Yeah. Well, it's a good question. And that's -- that's a common topic these days with, you know, Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem and -- AXELROD: Which you've been supportive. KERR: Yeah, I supported them because it's freedom of speech. And he's, you know, I think he made his message more clear as he went forward. He made clear that he wasn't trying to offend the military, that he was talking about equal rights. And I think that's important to -- if you're going to speak out, you should know something about the issues. But this is an interesting time, we're living and everybody has a voice, you know. Same people are telling me to stick to sports, they're tweeting, you know, their own political comments in there, you know, writing stuff on Facebook posts. And so we all have a voice now and which is kind of -- which is, you know, on one the hand it's good, everyone should have a voice but it gets a little scary when everybody's got their own opinion and sometimes these -- sometimes people are -- Well, there's no filters -- there's no filters and there's no fact checking. [00:50:07] AXELROD: Yeah. KERR: And that's, I guess, that's all different topic but it is an important one and I think -- AXELROD: But that's speak to the fact that we're not -- we don't really have a unified discussion where we're discussing one set of facts about which you may have an opinion. KERR: Sure.


AXELROD: If you fax or sort of fungible, kind of makes the whole thing much more difficult, facts took a beating in the soul ... KERR: It did. And it because then, it becomes propaganda, and that's where it get scary when there's propaganda involved rather than facts and genuine discourse. There's a bad historical preference -- precedent for that obviously. AXELROD: Now, your coaching in the Bay Area. KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: So you're probably to the right of 70 percent of the people come to your -- KERR: That's right. AXELROD: -- games. But did you get blow back from what you said. KERR: I had -- sure, I had lots of e-mails in my inbox, mostly positive, many negative, stick to sports or thank you for speaking out. And again, people are interested in my opinion. I didn't offer this up. I was -- I've been asked many times during press conferences as well, so people are interested and so I don't hesitate to speak. And I'm not the authority on any of this but what I do feel strongly about is a level of respect that she that has to exist between candidates, but also between people. I've got lots of -- I'm on I'm a Democrat. I've got lots of friends who are Republicans. We have really great healthy conversations. There's a respect level. That's how it should be. Again, you know, people voting on policy, absolutely. But the nature, the tenor of the selection was ugly and nasty and it's scary in terms of what direction that's going to take especially because we don't -- we really don't know what Trump's presidency is going to look like because he didn't really spell it out, other than possible deportation and putting Hillary in jail which I'm pretty sure he's not going to do that, but he said he would. AXELROD: Right, the rolling back of the Health Care Act and few others. KERR: Yeah. Yeah. So we don't really know. AXELROD: But you're right, and I think that's part of the anxiety is -- KERR: Yeah. AXELROD: -- for this. And, you know, we're beginning to see some appointments but that's a story still in the making. What's next for you? How long do you see yourself, "I don't want to create all kinds of jitters in the Bay Area?" But, I mean, do you see yourself doing this work for many, many years? Or do yourself during other stuff? KERR: No, I love coaching. It's -- I feel like it's what I was meant to do. You know, I come from a family --


AXELROD: You'd never coach before, before you've got this -- KERR: No, no. I was in management with the Phoenix Suns for three years, but did a lot of TV. I did eight years of television commentary. AXELROD: And great at it. KERR: Thank you. It was great for me as a father and husband, be able to be at home a lot more. Once my kids got to college age, that's when I decided to go into coaching because we were done raising our kids and I could go off and do what I really wanted. And coaching is always been in the back of my mind. But I love it and I'm incredibly blessed, I coached this group of guys. You know, my very first job in coaching is with Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala and not Kevin Durant. And, you know, working with Bob Myers, an incredible ownership group for a team that has amazing fan based, sellout every game. So I haven't seen the dark side of the NBA as a coach. And frankly, not really much as a player either. I've lived this wonderful ride on this great team. So -- but I love coaching and it's something I'd like to do for a long time. AXELROD: Well, you bring a great voice to all of this, not just sports but I'm glad that you speak out. And you're right, I mean the whole premise of this podcast is that we have to have more conversation and less shaking fist across a jagged divide. KERR: That's right. Can I mention one other thing? AXELROD: Yes. KERR: Along those lines, I read -- I've been doing a lot of reading since the election. And I read -- the best piece I read was a guy named David Long on a website called "Cracked" which I didn't know anything about. But somebody sent it to me. And if you're listening to this, you should read it. He's a guy who grew up in rural Illinois and he basically explained why -- what happened just happened. AXELROD: Yes. KERR: He moved to the city became a writer. He said he became Hillary supporter. But he said, growing up if he hadn't left his talent, he for sure would have voted for Trump. And he explained all the reasons why, and he made so much sense. [00:55:00] AXELROD: Yes. KERR: And it explained the divide that exists in our country and it made me realize, "Yeah, I'm living a totally different -- there so many people -- AXELROD: No, this is know this is a huge, huge issue because we live and we've sorted ourselves in such a way -- KERR: Yeah, yeah.


AXELROD: -- that we don't hear each other, right? And I haven't have a house in the rural Michigan and my neighbors all had Trumps signs on their, in their front yards, not lawn but yards. And they are good people, good neighbors, hard-working people, wonderful people. But they feel like they've been discarded. KERR: They have. AXELROD: They have dismissed and disrespected. KERR: Disrespected. And then, the other thing is that, they feel as though the establishment has just sort of changed everything in the establishment, in this particular election was represented by the Democrats minority, and Trump exploited it -- AXELROD: And Trump exploited that in incredibly clever and diabolical in some ways. KERR: Yes, but he's right. In fact, you know, I thought the most poignant moment of the election was when he admitted that he hadn't paid his taxes because there's a loophole. He said, "Of course, I didn't pay tax -- there's a loophole that I used. AXELROD: Right. KERR: I thought that was so important because what really matters is not whether Hillary is in office or whether Trumps is in office. What matters is, can we actually fix the system? Can we get rid of campaign finance and can we get rid of, you know, tax loopholes for corporations? Can we actually do something to generate jobs for this country? And I don't know if the answer is yes. That's what scary, I think we may be so far down that path and can we actually -- because the history of the world is that the people who have money influence the politics? AXELROD: Well, I think beyond that, we live in these revolutionary times when technologies -- you can't replace an NBA player with a machine, but there are a lot of jobs that can be replaced and are being replaced. And that's only going to accelerate and more, more people are going to find themselves in the position of having had a good job and not being able to find something to replace it. This is the biggest challenge that we face and we gotta to -- if we don't address it in a serious way and frankly, this campaign should have been all about that. KERR: Yeah, it should have. But it makes no difference who's in office when it comes to technological advancement. I mean, it's only a matter time before automatic cars and trucks. And so, what happens to the trucking industry, right? AXELROD: Exactly. KERR: And I don't know how many tens of thousands of jobs are in the trucking industry. AXELROD: Three million people drive for a living in this. KERR: Wow, all right. So --


AXELROD: What happens to them in this -- KERR: What happens to them and does it matter who wins the presidential election because you can't suppress -- AXELROD: What does matter is, do we have a strategy, do we think is front and center to say where are these people going in our economy -- KERR: Yeah, where are they going to work? AXELROD: -- how we create opportunity for them because as you know, it's not just a matter of a paycheck it's because we can give people money. KERR: Right. AXELROD: It's a matter of dignity, self-worth, how people define themselves. KERR: That's right, that's right. AXELROD: So these are big weighty issues. And if we don't get it right, then this kind of right-wing populism is going to take route. If Trump won, you see in Europe. KERR: Yeah, that's right. AXELROD: And we'll see more of it. So there a lot of -- KERR: It's scary. AXELROD: -- a lot of issues to -- so maybe should run for president. KERR: Gregg Popovich for president, I would vote for him. I really would. AXELROD: Steve Kerr, it's great to be with you. Thank you. KERR: All right, thanks to you. AXELROD: OK.


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