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V IRG IN IA M A R S T O N 90 01 31 0233PAGE 1

Q talk to Lisa?A Yeah, uh huh, Lisa Spray, (ph)

Q Lisa Spray?A Yeah.

Q And uh she had given my your your phone number and said Imight be able to talk to you.

A Y e s .

Q About uh the conversation that you had with uh..A Oh yeah that..uh did she show you the letter that I wrote

her?

Q Yeah yeah she did.A Okay.

Q Uh huh.A Well it was a I've been working with Fundamentalists

Anonymous out here and it's basically for people who have been through uh negative uh cults or religious experiences.

Q Uh huh.A And I got a call uh..uh a referral call from this woman who

apparently had been raised in the Nation of Islam, you know, Elijah Mohammed's outfit.

Q Yeah.A Uh she was a an African American and I guess probably about

fifteen years ago she well she walked out her father was a prominent minister and she had a dramatic exit, she pulled her scarf off in the mosque and uh just scandalized e v e r y o n e .

Q H u m .A And her father threatened uh to kill her if he ever saw her

a g a i n .

Q Was this here in the states?A Yeah this is in Chicago.

Q O h .A So she went out to California and uh she had been married to

another uh black American who was the grandson of Elijah Mohammed and apparently he was uh quite a you know hot shot in the organization so she took her son and left the whole

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VIRGINIA MARSTONPAGE 2

90 01 31 0233

shebang and came out here and proceeded to uh set up a pretty normal life uh and kinda put it all behind her but her son remained in contact with his father and whenever he would visit him he would you know be indoctrinated into the whole Muslin deal again. Uh at that time I don't know if you're familiar with the history of that movement but in the mid to late seventies they became more o r t h o d o x ..M u s i i m ..

..and uh the son ultimately spent I guess about three years in Saudi Arabia with his father and at that time his father kind of went off the deep end, he became really ultrafanatical and u h ..and was really doing everything uh by thebook so I guess he came back here a few months before hisfather was killed I didn't quite get that part of the storystraight but his father uh was supposed to meet supposed to debate Farraquin (ph) in Saudi Arabia, Farraquin wasvisiting uh raising funds apparently from the Saudigovernment and the day of the debate his father was reportedto have gone into almost like a drugged state but he wasn't on any medication or drugs and he was just ramblingincoherently for quite some time and then they say some say he was pushed, some say he fell off uh five story balcony.. M m m . ...to his death and the son had to go back over there and uh make the burial arrangements. His son was about seventeen by t h e n ..

Do you know when this what time of the year that we're..It was in March.

March of this year?Yeah..uh cause it was just a couple weeks after that that the woman called me and uh when he was there he met with hisformer teacher who is that uh what's his name..

Balah Philip..yeah uh and in fact a few years ago I received one his books from a former U.S. I think senator or congressman kind of loony tunes uh who felt that I was uh going to hell in a hand basket and wanted to set me straight with that but this guy had uh been denouncing Rashad for years and he said to the young boy was considerable glee uh did you hear what we got him and the kid said you know got who and he said Rashad Kalifa and at that time the boy really hadn't heard much about it. He said yeah uh we, apparently meaning you know the little Saudi clique got him finally. Now I think he uh he was digging around in his

Uh huh.

Y e a h . . . and

Balah. .

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90 01 31 0233

father's papers and came across a copy of a list that the Saudis are fond of doing that they tend to make lists of uh heretics and nonbelievers and disbelievers and anyone they really don't agree with and they do believe according to their theology that anyone uh who they consider heretics must be killed . .

..and uh Rashad was on that list and I've been told I was on some others but I'm only a woman so I doubt if they would waste their time on that.

O h .But I don't know that's..I've also received calls and letters from a lunatic in Singapore. I don't know if you've heard of him his name is Aziz Kassim.

Yeah somebody I've got in my notes somebody from Singapore and . .

..I think you're probably not the only one who has received stuff from if it's the same guy.And there's another another one named Shaquir Khan (p h ) who lives over there but Azziz Kassim called me, I think it was Monday or Tuesday morning at like 4:00 a.m. and he w a s ..I have a very bad habit of deliberately stirring up the hornet's nest form time to time and uh trying to provoke these people but I sent him one of my latest writings and itwas a little satirical flyer so he called to question meabout that. The guy probably has quite a bit of time on his hands and uh he you know asked me all sorts of questions and I answered them quite well uh he made some reference to worshipping Rashad Kalifa of course and that was his whole beef with uh Rashad and his group you know that he claimed that everyone idolized him and uh so I set him straight on that and then I got him to talking about his uh maritalstatus and that kind of distracted him the better part ofthe conversation but he seemed to be a lot more subdued than he used to be.

Y e a h .He used to send me postcards promising to tie me to a lamppost if he ever came to the United States.

Q Sounds like the same guy that I've I've heard about before.A Yeah. I don't know uh is there..has there been any progress

or anything uh..

Q Uh not to speak of uh as far we're trying to locate an

Um hum

Yeah

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VIRGINIA MARSTON 90 01 31 0233PAGE 4

individual now uh that's why I was curious as to maybe if uh Ramon if Ramon had mentioned any anybody's name or had mentioned anything particular about uh the murder here of Kalifa that you know I could kinda decide whether it was you know this was a valid or not.

A Uh Ramon's real name is Abdur Aman (ph) but his motherrefused to call him that.

Q Uh huh.A Uh let's see..the only other things I've heard..I'm sure

you've checked with ISNA Islamic Society of North America inIndiana .

Q Um no.A Yes you have you must have.

Q N o .A Well you should.

Q Yeah b u t ..A Please do.

Q Oh yeah.A Uh what's the name of it? Islam..A Islamic Society of North America ISNA and it's in

Plainfield, Indiana I think I have their address memorized. It's at P.O. Box 38, Plainfield. It's a tiny town..yes. Box 38, 46168. One of their phone numbers is area code 317839-8157 uh there's a guy named Hassan Badbi (ph) whoprobably will be of absolutely no help..he's a weirdcharacter. Uh ____________________ that that whole outfit hasuh ____________ vehemently opposed to Rashad from thebe g i n n i n g .

Q Oh that's that was that was going to be my next question.Why would why would they help me or why would they uh..

A Well they uh..well they're not they're also not very brightand I think their main concern is setting their little record straight and uh telling you you know all of his about all of his evil so he might they might let something slip.

Q Yeah.A And I don't know they financed by for a while people were

saying that the Iranian government was funding them but I think it's pretty much Saudi Arabia. Another ooh this will be i n t e r e s t i n g ..this guy is the president, the grand poobah (ph) of this, his name is Achmad Zaki (ph)..

Q Can you spell that?A A-h-m-a-d and capital Z-a-k-i and the last name which I

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don't think he uses very much is H - a - m - m - a - d ..and his number is area code 312 598 6136.

Who pray tell is he?He's the I think president of ISNA and yeah he would probably would say something you know that Rashad was a heretic and deserved it but I don't know. Another individual who might shed some light is Steve Johnson (p h ). He used to work for ISNA years ago and he's now uh in the Episcopal priesthood but don't tell Lisa that uh and his number is area code 317 926 1323.

And he used to be uh..Yeah he used to uh actually he used to be a pretty hardcoreMuslim and uh now he's a priest if you can figure that oneo u t .Y e a h .But he was pretty he was in the thick of things as far asthe Saudi deal goes.

Um hum.And he also uh aligned himself with Rashad right before he left so he told me that you know he got calls from the gulf states right after the murder and some of the Muslims there were telling him come on over we're partying we're ce l e b r a t i n g .

Because of Rashad?Yeah and since then the Muslims that I've talked to a lot of them appear to have I don't know if they're just reluctant to say too much to me or to let on that they've heard anything but the party line is that he had an accident. Iguess he was accidently stabbed..Yeah ...and a few said that oh yeah I heard he was shot but the consensus is that they don't want to make a really big deal about it because uh it's a..I don't know, they don't wanthim to become a hero or a martyr.

Q Right a martyr of any type.A Yeah.

Q Yeah things have been pretty quiet as far as I've I've run acouple local things here trying to locate a the best suspect we have and nobody's you know said anything about him or haven't had much luck at all and I've talked to a couple of different Muslims here in different investigations and whenI mention his name they just I mean they just shut off.

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que you know I hate to sayand that and I 'm sure she ' snda just get I think that ' s> a1t the mosque have be en

A Yeah...you know they don't say nothing.Cause a lot of them consider him to be the devil incarnate.

R i g h t .Uh I feel sorry for you working with them though because I think that any kind of law enforcement officers would be their natural enemy.

Yeah that's well even at the i this Lisa's been real supportive and that given us everything she can..I kinda Just it uh some of the other people reluctant to say a whole lot..Y e a h ...and I guess maybe I can understand that.I was delighted to hear Lisa you know that was the first time she ever mentioned anything about the investigation or who did it or anything when she asked me to send her that i n f o r ma tion.

Yeah w e ..Finally normal emotion.

Do you do you know what the name Balal (ph) means?Oh yes yeah that's a very significant name, Balal was uh a black slave who was freed by one of Prophet Mohammed's companions close companions and he became the first uh prayer caller basically. The call him a wazeen (p h ) that's the one who does the formal public call to prayer and he supposed had a beautiful voice and the term Balalian is used in the American black American community just to signify a black American Muslim and some of them have almost elevatedit to the status of a new race you know they instead ofsaying they're black they say they're Balalian.

I s e e .So it's pretty you know I've never even seen Balal Phillips I didn't even bother to ask what race he was but I would assume that he would be black.

Q Yeah. You would know if interpret what it would mean I mean like Anthony you know is my name my name is really I go byTony. Would it be like could it be interpreted in thatrespect as far as a different name?

A Oh a nickname or..Q Right.A Well it's it's hard to say because number one when you're

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90 01 31 0233

dealing if you're dealing with an American Muslim you could have a thousand alias, you know, from his given name and any other names he stuck in there but I've noticed a lot of middle eastern Muslims have like they this guy Achmad Zaki is a good example, I never even knew that his real last name was H a m m a d ..

..but he just goes by Zaki, he uses that as his last name cause they don't have a real concept of a surname so they could use I know another person for instance named Ahmed Sherif (p h ) and I've never once heard him called Ahmed it's always Sherif. Then there's something called Acuna (ph) which Balal Phillips uses. He also calls himself Agu Amina (p h ) and Agu is father of..just as Om (p h ) is mother of so they will call themselves father of their firstborn child.. Um hum...which in his case is rather peculiar because generally they don't use that when the firstborn is a girl but..

Well the suspect's name that you know if you can call him a suspect it's our best lead to date is an individual who we really haven't..I have a photo of him uh but he's been going by the name of Ben Phillips.Ben Phillips.

Yeah which is kind of you know, Balal Phillips, Ben Phillips, I was wondering whether there might be..Ben well Ben is the son of, the son of Philip so yeah..ooh.

Ben means son of?Yeah. Just like the Hebrew but Arabic it's more it's either B-i-n or the I think the correct Arabic is Ibin I-b-n but they usually pronounce it Bin.

Well he goes by Benjamin Phillips or by the name of Ben P h i l l i p s .I'm going to see I used to publish an Islamic literarymagaz i n e . .Uh huh.In another life tine..uh and I have a mailing list of two or three hundred names..Y e a h ...and _______________________.

Q Well see there's a..you know we have a problem with the real name I don't think this is the guy's real name uh the samedate of birth was used by another individual in Texas with aTexas ID card and that person is also black and the

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information that he provided in order to obtain a social security card in in Texas was fictitious and..going by the pictures of the ID card in Texas and the pictures of the Arizona driver's license on our Ben Phillips they don't they're not the same person in my opinion. There's a definite weight difference, they're both black Americans and they're using the same date of births so you know it's almost like they're working in conjunction with each other uh although I'm sure that one or both of them knows something about this.W o w ...and we haven't been able to you know to track them down other than probably to the you know the best location we have now as far as the states would have been you know a tie in with Texas uh and uh..other things come into play uh social security numbers and stuff like that are very suspicious too. You mentioned the fact that uh this Islamic Society of America..Um hum...uh that's in Plainview where did you say..Plainfield, Indiana.

Indiana and uh as I recall the uh I'd have to check my notes but I'm almost positive that the social security numbers used by the Ben Phillips here he used two of them, two different ones, and both of those come from the Indiana a r e a .Oh oh that figures...you know so things are kind of going along in that way a lot of things are being tied in but we still haven't got to the point where you know we know where this Ben Phillips isright now we don't know uh you know if in fact he is youknow out of the country or uh we can't really locate him in the country so far. We've got you know things out there, feelers, being sent out there and the F.B.I. is you know doing their part of you know the the work that I can't do there can't do out there so..Well definitely ISNA is I mean in my book from the beginninguh when I heard _______________ and I used to joke about this..Um hum...about the death threats and you know who's going to get itwhen and we always said that they were too incompetent toeven you know hold a picnic much less kill someone but a few years ago I guess it was 87 I had a publishing contract with American Trust Publications and which is ISNA publishing house and my book was it had already gone to print and it was about to bound and the publisher had got wind of the fact that I had written for Rashad's newsletter and he

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called me and insisted that I write a letter of denunciationand he had to publish it and you know he said I could not belinked with Rashad and you know I told him no I'm sorryyou've been very kind to me and uh I I will not do that andwe went around and around for the better part of a month and ultimately he I guess just dumped the whole thing. They could be I've heard rumors that they were bootlegging the book because I can't see that he would knowingly uh lose fifteen thousand dollars but uh they you know hated him enough to make that much of a stink about it and oh if it is an American this Ben Phillips that would just make me so sick because it was it was always the Saudis and that whole Wahabi (ph) sect organization that was really after Rashad and wasted so much ink in denouncing him and all that and it would be just like them to get an American to do the dirty work .

Q Well see I'm not so sure that it is an American uh you know there's there's differences of opinion as to what accent this guy had in fact you know one witness says that you knowhe seemed to be able to change his accents time to time uhthe fact that he didn't have a social security card to begin with and being the age that he is that was suspicious to the to the gal at the social security office where he applied.

A Yeah.

Q And the birth certificate that he used to to apply for thesocial security card was you know I believe out of Michiganand it was a fictitious you know birth certificate. So youknow the info you know when I got this information the other day from Lisa you know in my mind it wouldn't be unreasonable to to think that you know this individual because I had heard talk prior to this that uh one of the phone calls I received which I couldn't verify cause the guy didn't leave his name or anything you know indicated that Ben Phillips had been sent over you know from another he didn't say what country had been sent from a didn't even say Ben Phillips he said that the individual who killed Rashad had been sent from another country and has since left and gone back and been rewarded by the king of his country.

A O h .

Q So you know I'm you know there's..A Too much.Q ..yeah, exactly. You know you hear so much and and I'm just

trying to verify as much as I I can you know to see whether you know for instance you know I was particularly interestedin whether Ramon had mentioned any like anything specific

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that I could say Balal mentioned to him that I might you know look in the investigation and say yeah well that's trueyou know he this did happen and and in that way get a..

A No all I . .<3 • •_____________ •A ..all I can recall was he talked about uh the theological

differences that they had and you know..Q Urn hum.A ..Balal said that uh it was just you know he was just a

heretic and uh he had I guess he had been Ramon's Koranic studies teacher you know like that..

Q Urn hum.A ..Arabic and what have you so he had always rather looked up

to him. He was a bright kid. I think they had already granted him a scholarship to their university there.

Q Veah.A And that was when I think his he kind of snapped and

realized that you know his father had just died and here this guy was uh going on about another human being who was killed a n d ..

Q Sure.A ..what kind of snake pit was this but he did mention that

it's very strange his step mother over there..what did he say her name was..she was a black American too and I think he said her name was Kathy or Debbie or something distinctly American but she apparently was kind of the stereotypical evil step mother and before his father died I guess for the last twelve hours of his life she tape recorded his conversations and his little monologues cause he kind of went off at the end..

Q Hum.A ..and he said he had those and he just sounded so

disoriented and so..it just didn't nothing fit with the official Saudi explanation and of course they couldn't do an autopsy cause that's forbidden.

Q Yeah I've run into that problem before here.A Oh gosh. The last I heard they were in Hawaii and his

mother said they were going to go to Australia and Hawaii her new husband's family is in Australia and she was very concerned because her husband is Caucasian and since she has such close ties to what's his name Farraquin (p h ) and the Nation of Islam people they don't look took kindly up interracial marriages and she had received a call from Farraquin's daughter in law right after her ex husband's death. She was rather taken aback by that.

o oVIRGINIA MARSTON 90 01 31 0233PAGE 11

Q Well do you know they it's not like they're going to becoining back that you know of.

A She said that she would call me when they did, they weren'tplanning on staying over there for good but I would have expected them to be back by now but I haven't heard from them.

Q I just wondered if if uh the boy would be willing Ramonwould be willing to to just talk to me and you knowmaybe..you know whatever you've given me here.

A I do have a number. Would would you have to tell them thatI gave it to you? Cause I don't want them to..

Q No well I wouldn't have to I can just refuse but..they youknow they might want an explanation..you know if it's going to cause any problems for you that's find.

A And this Fundamental Anonymous is supposed to beconfidential.

Q Yeah.A ..Not very good if they _________________________ and supposedly

they were going to close their apartment here any way but ifI do hear from them I'll ask.

Q Yeah if you could just you know just I don't all you knowall all I'm looking forward to is trying to verify certainthings and he might not be able to provide me any more thanyou know than what you recall here in the letter but you know it's a possibility that he might you know he maybe he remembers something that Balal told him a particular thingthen I can look at my reports and say yeah that's that'strue so the chances of it happening..

A Description.

Q Yeah, right.A I've got one person who might be well it couldn't hurt.

He's in Chicago let me give you his number. It's area code 312 783 1506 and his you could just call him Doctor Shabaz(ph) uh his first name ______________ ..

Q C-h-a..A s-h-a-b-a-z-z.

Q Okay.A And he was uh a colleague and friend of Rashad's. He's been

involved in this whole thing forever. Uh he's very open minded and he's defended me numerous times and I've been in touch with him quite a bit since this murder and he's..he has his finger on the pulse of the community pretty much. He mentioned that you know A m a n Mohammed, the

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Elijah Mohammed's son and heir who became totally under_____________ ..now he's on the payroll of the Saudis. He madea statement in a speech about two or three months before Rashad was killed that yes anyone who makes the claims that Rashad does should be killed and he's considered like one ofthe most prominent ______________ figures..so it might nothurt to talk to him.

Q Okay. Do you think it would be this..INSA..A Oh it's not..it's..Q It's INSA right?A IS. .I SNA.Q ISNA.A Yes.

Q Okay uh do you think it would really be I mean do you thinkthey would talk to me about..

A Oh yes well..I don't know they could..they could take acouple of approaches. One could be..their party line which is just denouncing him and telling you uh how evil he was and how he deserved to die, another could be we know nothing. .

Q Yeah.A ..are you allowed to lie? Could you say that you were..Q (laugh)A ..a reporter doing an article?Q Um not really.A You could say you're interested in converting to Islam.

Q I'm sure they would make me right away.A (laugh) Actually well you don't know, these people

get..some of them are are pretty slow and a lot of them also have seen some pretty flaky characters so be prepared for anything.

Q Well that's another thing about the Ben Phillips at themosque apparently he pretended to be somebody who was just recently interested and according to the the members he seemed to pick up a lot of things real quick you know.

A Oh really? At the mosque in Tucson?Q Right yeah it was suspicious to a lot of the people I guess

or to some of the people certainly that for being a you know new that he I guess there's certain things as far as praying and stuff like this that..

A Yeah.Q ..wouldn't be known to the general public certainly somebody

who is just a student at this point..and of course you know this didn't wasn't realized until you know until later in in

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reflection of the death and everything ao there's you know this is our best lead so far and and we're just trying to figure out where where this Phillips..

SIDE A OF TAPE ENDS, SIDE B

A ...you want to gag sometimes.

Q Or did you used to be?A Yeah I was uh I'm..I committed the ultimate ain I was a

really heavy duty fundamentalist puritanical buffoon for about seven years.

Q Uh huh.A And I made fashion statements with sheets and the whole bit

uh you know I'm like a typical WASP upper middle class whiteAmerican it was weird..

Q Yeah.A ..bizarre and then I uh started to I became really prominent

in Islamic publishing and literary circles and you know we used to call ourselves especially Steve Johnson and I we called ourselves white meat the token..

q (laugh)A ..American and they'd parade us out.Q Yeah.A ..show us off and then I started doing some research and I

found that a lot of the uh the teachings I based much of my faith were indeed fabricated so I ultimately after a couple of years of study on that I made the break and I stopped wearing the veil and decided just to follow Koran alone and that's when I got hooked up with Rashad and then uh he________________ I might as well of confessed to eating deadbabies or something..

Q Yeah.A ..uh they were just appalled and after a couple of years of

that I just drifted out of the community. Now I'mofficially label-less you know I'm just me.

Q Urn hum.A ..but it's been something because _______________ is punishable

by death and I received numerous death threat and all sortsof good stuff. Uh I was naive enough to assume that theF.B.I. would be my night in shining armor to rescue me.

Q Yeah.A I called them and they said oh we don't worry about

individuals so.but this book by uh I have it in front of me, it's called The Koran's Numerical Miracle, Hoax and Heresy by Abdul Amina Balal Phillips and it's published by A1

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90 01 31 0233

Fookhan Publications and it's just a..it's..how many pages..sixty eight pages of denunciation of Rashad and everything he taught and it's, you know, just from character assassination to uh theological differences and then I have an inscription by Robert Crane (p h ) who used to work for Nixon, he was a I think a senator or congressman from Virginia and he wrote..he sent this to me cause he was worried about my soul and he says, "Here perhaps Brother Balal goes to extremes in the harshness of his critique but we should be aware of what he says I have worked with him while in Riad (ph) the past few months and have great respect for his scholarly competence as well as for his commitment and submission to Allah. Regardless of how some people may misuse the Hadid Insuna (ph) the traditions of Mohammed we should always remember that Allah chose to reveal the Koran through the messenger Mohammed rather than on golden tablets" bla bla bla and there's something about Rashad here uh..it's interesting. This guy apparently went a little bit bonkers so..and this was published in 1987 by..would you like the..phone number of the publisher in Saudi Arabia? Would that help?

No. I can probably find it here someplace.Cause I've got it uh..it's El Fookhan in Riad..telephone 401 4671. Who knows..

What's the name Hoax..The Koran's Numerical Miracle, Hoax and Heresy.

Because one of the..this is a big scandal in the Muslim community, I mean we really we were all so pure and moral that we uh had to create our own little melodramas and dirt. The recipient of the King Faisal award for I don't know, for propagation of the faith, I guess about ten years before he received it he was working with Rashad and supporting him in his computer research so when when he won that award they had to quickly denounce Rashad and say that you know he really didn't mean to say any of the good things that he had about him.

Okay.

Yeah.I don't know. I don't envy you on this

case.

Q Yeah well I've got a hundred and fifty thousand suspectsbasically.

A Yeah.

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Q When the..A No you've got one billion..really.

Q Well yeah, exactly.A Almost.

Q And unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot at the crimescene as far as evidence that direct evidence that we can place anybody there by at best we got a circumstantial case..not even that really yet until we find out more about this Ben Phillips.

A Was there a was there evidence of much of struggle or..

Q Not really not much of a struggle, it was confined to just ashort amount you know a small amount of space.

A God.

Q Do you ever get to Tucson?A Well I was going to uh go to their conference.

Q Oh that's yeah that's..A On Labor Day.

Q Right she said that.A And that's and they have an interesting set up I guess we'll

all meet at the mosque and then drive to the hotel, they won't tell us where it is.

Q Yeah for security type..A Yeah.Q ..reasons.A It' s kind of exciting..yeah I don't know and ironically I'm

sure you've heard this before most of the great martyrs ofIslam who had some power or another wound up stabbed in themosque and for them to have chosen that mode of death..

Q No I wasn't familiar I wasn't ware of that.A Yeah all of the the first first leaders of the Muslim

commu nity after Mohammed they were stabbed in the mosque.<3 Hum.A That'

knows kind of it's not the mark of martyrdom pretty close.

but it's you

Q Well what how long are you going to be in town?A Uh I '11 be there I get there Friday and be there through

Sunda y maybe Monday. But I'd love to talk to yo u .

Q Yeah. What time Friday?

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A I'm not sure if I'm going to be flying or driving yet butyou know I could I think it starts at one supposed to meetat the mosque there.

Q At one o'clock Friday?A Yeah so if I could get in a little earlier I could meet you

beforehand.

Q Yeah that would be great. That would probably bethe..unfortunately we can't work on those days.

A Oh really?

Yeah.Then why don't I call you when I get into town. Maybe I'lltry and come in the night before.

Oh that would be even that would be great yeah.Yeah and oh you'll when you see me I'll be the least likelyto have ever accepted Islam.(laugh)You'll be shocked. I look about as Muslim as Madonna.(laugh)

Well if between now and then you you know you come up with anything or you know find anything interesting as far asliterature that might..I will cause I'm totally obsessed with this thing__________________ it's just oh God my blood ran cold. He wassuch a dear man and regardless of his views or his methods or anything.

Well see you know that's what confusing to me and probably because I'm not of Muslim faith but..you know..the people can be so gentle it appears to me that you know even you know the way they talk and everything and their demeanor is real gentle but yet on the other hand..it's almost like it's condoned if somebody disagrees that you know to go to these lengths t o ..Yeah...to destroy him and although the people themselves you know haven't haven't done anything it's almost like they feel compassion that this was deserved.Yeah...you know I'm really having problems you know with that.Oh it's hard for me you know I was in that mind set for a while and at that time I would have at least intellectually understood that but since I've been out for a couple of years when I hear it now I'm just shocked..

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Q Yeah.A ..this is regardless of whether or not he was a messenger or

you know ordained by God or anything it's a human being.Q Right exactly let him say what he wants to.A And I mean if you would have known him he was very sincere

and very gentle, just a sweet little cuddly guy who uh really didn't want to hurt anyone. I just foundsomething..have you seen a pamphlet entitled "Who Killed This Believer?"

Q Yeah yeah I've seen that yeah I've got a copy of it.A Now that guy he's Cult Awareness Network ironically had

called me about him a few months before Rashad's murder and there was a distraught mother who's daughter was in thatsect wanting to know how to get her out but he is runningquite a mind control group up there but he's in the blackcommunity and if anyone would know..Urn hum...he might have some interesting dirt. Do you have his number?No I don't.I've got it right here on the flyer. Area code 718 452 9329 .

What's his name?Just listen to this..Asyad El Aman Isa El Hadi El Mafabi.(Ph)

Okay yeah I remember that..common spelling.What would you call him for short?Yeah.Uhh. .A s y .Call him why don't you call him oh this will make you feel good, call him Madi. (p h )Mudi?M-a-h-d-i..and maybe be sure and stress that you're calling about the Rashad Kalifa case and tell him you have a suspect then he might not get quite as paranoid. I hope you can find something and I've even gone to a psychic to see if he would shed any light on it and there is nothing really..a blue sedan actually a blue Cadillac he came up with and someone with a raspy voice.

Are you familiar with a lot of the faces?No that's part of the problem because I did most of my work through the mail.

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Q Yeah.A And being a woman I wasn't allowed to interact with too many

people..I was allowed but not that much. As far as Rashad's group goes I was only with him twice and that was both times were out here.

Q O h .A Physically although we corresponded and spoke on the phone..Q Um hum.A ..regularly and you know I knew Lisa and Cat is still there

and Lydia..a few other people. I met his brother and his daughter not his son.

Q Okay well I'll let you go.A Well thank you and uh I'll definitely give you a call when I

get into town.

Sounds good. Maybe the ... maybe..The 31st.31st is when it starts right?Let me double check.The 31st is a Friday August 31st.Yeah that's what uh..she was saying 31st through the 1st or 2nd..yes. Okay Twelve Noon August the 31st to 1:00 p.m. September 2nd so I would imagine the best time to be I'll get in touch with you Thursday night.

Okay.And this is a good number to reach you at?

Yeah..let me..what did you dial, 4487..791-4487?Yeah 4487.

Okay we've got another extension is 4469.Okay.

And what time do yo u . .I would imagine oh might be around seven or eight.

Okay. Well I could make it you know I could work late I canchange my hours. Why don't I give you a call like on thewould you know by the 29th?Uh yes I should.

Okay I can maybe call you the 28th 29th and verify..Okay...what time then I'll just change the hours.Great..I'll be looking forward to it.

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Q Okay.A Thank you so much and good luck.

Okay thanks Virginia.Take care.

Okay you too.Bye bye.

Q Bye bye.

INTERVIEWED BYD E T .^ANTHONY MILLER

TRANSCRIBED BYJLA N22101June 6, 1997/1300 HOURS

s?//s&t ** rp^/'V/A.

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