Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?

Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?

Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam? Shirin Ebadi [1] 21 March 2011 "Egyptian women are lucky in one way. They have witnessed the predicament of Iranian women andseen how the Islamic state has hijacked the Iranian revolution, changed the laws and reversedwomen’s gains. My advice to Egyptian women is “do not give way to a government that would forceyou to choose between your rights and Islam”. I believe that Iran was a lesson for the women in theentire region".

Deniz Kandiyoti: The wave of protests in the Arab world present new openings as well as uncertaintyand danger. As a defender of women’s rights who has been through revolutionary upheaval in Iran,how do you assess the possibilities and dangers?

Shirin Ebadi: I would like to concentrate on Tunisia and Egypt. There are important differencesbetween these cases. The representation of women in civil society is stronger in Tunisia. The HabibBourgiba government, although non-democratic, helped to promote secularism and changed thelaws in favour of women. As a result, the situation of women in Tunisia is more favourable than thatof other Arab countries. There are high powered women active in the public sphere. For instance,Sohair Ben Hassan, an extremely progressive and committed woman and one of the leaders of oneof the largest Human Rights organisations in Tunisia is also the head of the International Federationof Human Rights (FIDH). It is no accident that when the leader of the Islamic movement in Tunisiareturned after twenty years of exile the first thing he said was that he was neither Khomeini nor theTaliban.

Deniz Kandiyoti: What about Egypt?

Shirin Ebadi : When I was in Egypt three years ago I was astonished by the number of young womenwearing the hijab., They were saying that their parents were not respecting their national identity,that they had found their national identity. They were against the Mubarak regime. There were alsocommunist and secular movements in opposition but they were easily harassed and couldn’t carryon with their activities. But they couldn’t prevent the Islamists from organizing- you can’t close downthe mosques. As a result the non-Islamist opposition grew weaker, and the Muslim Brotherhood isnow the most powerful opposition group in Egypt. But the example of Iran is frightening to thewomen of Egypt and they do not want to share the same fate. To alleviate such fears the MuslimBrotherhood said that the Egyptian uprising was not an Islamic uprising, but one in which Muslimsand Christians have fought alongside one another. It promised to support and to participate in anon-Islamist government. Are they going to stand by their promises? Or will they change their stanceif they consolidate their power? It is too early to judge. Egyptian women are lucky in one way - theyhave witnessed the predicament of Iranian women and seen how the Islamic state has hijacked theIranian revolution, changed the laws and reversed women’s gains. Therefore they will stand up andfight for their rights. I believe that Iran was a lesson for the women in the entire region.

Deniz Kandiyoti: If you were to give a piece of advice to the women’s movement in Egypt, whatwould this advice be?

Shirin Ebadi: My most important piece of advice to Egyptian women is “do not give way to agovernment that would force you to choose between your rights and Islam”. Do not let them put youin that bind. Governments that invoke the name of ‘Islam’ in their self-definition will face people withthis dilemma and this false choice. They will say “either you are Muslim and accept our laws or youare not Muslim”. That is exactly the way the government has operated in Iran. When you face

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Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

someone who comes from a very religious family with this question, she gets a bit hesitant.Therefore, we must not reach a point when a government can accord itself the right to pose thisquestion. Getting to understand Islam well and encouraging women to learn different interpretationsof Islam is important. So when governments tell women “this is Islam’, they will be well-equipped tocounter their arguments.

Deniz Kandiyoti : Yes, but surely there are authorities who speak in the name of Islam such as the ulama. Women can get educated but will they have any authority?

Shirin Ebadi: It is quite natural that the discourse of the ulama is a paternalistic discourse, but wehave to be equipped with the same weapons to be able to prove that Islam can be somethingdifferent. They may have political power and reject women’s interpretations, but bear that in mindthat we are addressing the Muslim people. It is the Muslim population that has to be convinced thatthey can remain Muslim and have different laws and ambitions. This is the only true way tochallenge the legitimacy of the conservative ulama since they get all their power from the people’sobedience. There is also the fact that part of the ulama will take the people’s side, and they willprovide interpretations that the people accept. That is exactly what happened in Iran when very highranking ulama offered interpretations that were totally against the official government line. Peoplehave understood that the government does not have a monopoly over Islam, and that is thebeginning of people’s awakening.

Deniz Kandiyoti: Do you think that the women’s movement in Egypt and platforms for women’srights will be able to form broad alliances?

Shirin Ebadi : If Egyptian women see their legal rights endangered, they will definitely get together,they will unite. It was the same in Iran. At the beginning of the revolution there were some peoplewho were not even happy to talk to me. But now these same women speak articulately and with aneven more radical voice than mine! Experience shows that when women face tyranny and injustice,they will become united.

Deniz Kandiyoti: Let me act as the devil’s advocate here. There are modern constitutions in manyArab countries that accord men and women equal citizenship rights, but when you look at personalstatus laws, you see that women do not enjoy equal rights in matters of inheritance, divorce or childcustody, not to mention the issue of polygamy. It is therefore possible to argue that women arealready deprived of equal rights, and yet this has not galvanized a momentum for unity.

Shirin Ebadi: Let me correct you on this point. None of the constitutions of Islamic countries accordwomen equal rights. Because there is always a clause that states the laws are conditional uponconformity with Islam. So the constitution may have the appearance of equality in terms ofcitizenship rights but in reality the laws remain dependent upon the shar’ia and the shar'ia getsinterpreted by those in power. The main question that has always been unanswered in theconstitutions of these countries is” who defines Islam”?.

Deniz Kandiyoti: Now we are witnessing the drafting of new constitutions. As a lawyer do you thinkthat it is possible to draft constitutions that are able to address the inequality of women?

Shirin Ebadi: It all depends on the political process and how politics plays out. It goes without sayingthat constitutions should be approved by the majority of the people. Political parties have animportant role to play in this respect but the problem in countries under despotic rule for years isthat the political parties don’t have that much power and the development of politics has beentruncated in general. On the other hand, you must also bear in mind that you can’t achieve idealrights in a society in one go; it is a step-by-step process. Take what happened in Afghanistan. Theywrote a new constitution and gave women a quota in parliament. They did this to bring women out ofseclusion into the political world. But we saw that when one woman MP came out to talk aboutwomen’s rights in parliament, the other MPs forced her out. In reality, the quota for women has lostits meaning. It is possible to imagine that we can write an ideal constitution. But are we going toachieve the ideal situation with a change of law? I doubt it.

Deniz Kandiyoti: So you are basically saying that the law can only become reality when society is

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Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

sociologically ready for it.

Shirin Ebadi: Yes, naturally. Because I am a lawyer, I like to talk about the role of law, but law shouldonly be one step ahead of the culture of a society in order to bring improvement and progress. Inother words, the rule of law should serve to improve society - and for that very reason it can only beone step ahead. That is why laws that are more than one step ahead get wasted, they remain onpaper. For that reason, those rewriting laws must have excellent knowledge of their society andmake sure they do not set unattainable goals.

Deniz Kandiyoti: As a human rights lawyer I imagine you endorse the gender equality goals set out ininternational standard setting instruments. Do you believe that it is possible to close the gapbetween the rights accorded to women in universal human rights frameworks and the current legalframeworks of Muslim countries?

Shirin Ebadi: Yes, but this can only be a gradual process. Take a society like Bahrain or Libya wherepolygamy is commonplace. How can you change that law overnight and ban polygamy outright? Thefirst step is to pass a law that stresses that the Qur'an foresees this practice only when absolutejustice can be established among spouses, and justice does not only consist of money and materialsupport but also love and care. Therefore, polygamy could remain with more stringent conditionsand the woman whose husband gets another wife should have the right to get a divorce. This is notan ideal law, in fact it is a long way from being ideal. But it is the first step. These limitations cancondition society and make it more receptive to accept further changes. If they want to change thatlaw overnight, a lot of men will get married anyway and won’t record it, and the women will remainsilent. I repeat: we can write a law overnight, but what would be the fate of this law? Would it findfavour among the people? The duty of a lawyer is to know the society well that it is writing the lawfor, and at the same time bear all the human rights criteria in mind in order to steer the society inthat direction.

Deniz Kandiyoti: When you say “society” is not ready, do you actually mean men are not ready? Doyou think that many women would object to a law restricting or banning polygamy?

Shirin Ebadi: Yes, polygamy is dangerous but men like it! Let me ask you a question: where doespatriarchy come from? Does a man only learn it from his father? Has he not seen that his mother hasobeyed and that her reaction was to go and cry quietly? Unfortunately, one of the bearers ofpatriarchal cultures are women, even though they are the victims of it. I compare this tohaemophilia, a genetic illness passed from mother to son. Patriarchal culture is conveyed in thesame way from mother to son. My argument is: don’t treat human beings as victims but tell them itis their responsibility to fight this culture. When you see women only as victims, you forget theirresponsibility.

Deniz Kandiyoti: One final thought. You have been talking about the necessity for a gradual processof legal reform .But this process has been going on for a very long time now. For instance, theOttoman Civic Code proposed as long ago as the end of the 19th century made polygamy moredifficult and conditional on the approval of the first wife. Similar reforms have been going on in manyparts of the Muslim world. But Khomeini was able to reverse all these efforts overnight.

Shirin Ebadi: No, it did not take Khomeini one day to make these changes. If it had taken one day,people like me wouldn’t be here. Where would I come from? The law changed because they hadpolitical power. But society didn’t accept it. For that reason, people took their lives into their ownhands and fought against it. At the beginning we were not a very large number for two reasons. Onewas a political reason. The left and some secular parties were saying that this was no time fordiscussing these matters, that these were marginal issues that would distract us from our mainobjectives. The biggest left wing party in Iran, the Tudeh party, told women to wear the hijab. Youmay be surprised but initially hijab was not compulsory in Iran, only women who worked ingovernment bodies had to wear it, but in the street we could be unveiled. During that period, therewas a young girl who was selling the Tudeh communist party paper and she was wearing hijab.Whenever I used to pass her I used to tease her by saying ”l will buy your paper if you take off yourhijab” I teased her so much that she went and stood on another corner! But the second reason isthat there were fewer educated women compared to now, and the majority were mainly traditional

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Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

women. Gradually the traditional women came out of their homes and modernity was born on thestreets. A woman who comes out on the street cannot be suppressed. A woman who goes touniversity cannot be suppressed. When a woman works and has her own wages she cannot besuppressed. Therefore, gradually our supporters increased. Women who at the beginning were ourenemies are now more radical than I am and I am happy about it. I used to feel lonely at thebeginning of the revolution. But now I think we are the majority. The pro-Khomeini faction has neversucceeded. His culture has not been consolidated but enforced at the point of a gun.

Deniz Kandiyoti: You mention the political dangers of secular parties claiming that women’s rightsare a secondary matter and that this is not the right time to put them on the agenda, and also thepassivity of some of the traditional women in the Arab world. Do you think that in order to becomemore militant they have to go through the same process of politicisation as the women in Iran?

Shirin Ebadi: There is no need for human beings to reinvent the wheel. We can learn from oneanother. We can look at Iran and see what happened there. In this respect communication comes asa great help. It is for that very reason that dictators hate open communication.

Deniz Kandiyoti : So are you optimistic about the prospects of women’s movements and women’srights advocacy in Tunisia and Egypt?

Shirin Ebadi: Yes, I am optimistic. Although I believe that the situation in Tunisia is somewhat better Iam also optimistic about Egypt. They will eventually achieve equal rights. They have a period ofcampaigning ahead of them, this will naturally take time. But eventually it will happen.

Deniz Kandiyoti: Do you see a day when there will be demonstrations of women asking for equalrights with men coming and walking along with them?

Shirin Ebadi: Yes, certainly in Iran. I had some male clients who came to women’s demonstrations,got arrested and went to prison. The fight for women’s rights and democracy are parallel. They aretwo sides of the same coin. And women who fight for equal rights are part of the fabric ofdemocracy. Iranian men have understood that. They know that the victory of women’s rights is thebeginning of democracy.

Deniz Kandiyoti: Women were mobilized during the protests in the Arab streets. They were out therein Bourgiba Avenue in Tunis and Tahrir Square in Cairo. But this has happened before. Whatguarantee is there that they will not be invited back into their homes after regime change?

Shirin Ebadi: There is no guarantee. This has been the experience of Iranian women who have beenfighting for their rights for a century now. The only guarantee is the will of the people in their searchfor freedom.

SideboxesRelated stories: Promise and peril: women and the ‘Arab spring’ [2] Egypt: the two faces of liberation [3] The rightful place of gender equality within Islam [4] Egypt after Mubarak: finding truth in transition [5] A tangled web: the politics of gender in Turkey [6] Statement from the Coalition of Women's NGO's in Egypt [7] Egypt: from equality of purpose to equality on the ground [8] Musawah: there cannot be justice without equality [9] Musawah: solidarity in diversity [10]

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Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

The right to have rights: resisting fundamentalist orders [11] Gender in Afghanistan: pragmatic activism [12] Conflict and Custom in the New World Order : a conversation with Gita Sahgal [13] 'Soft law' and hard choices: a conversation with Gita Sahgal [14] Negotiating with the Taliban: the view from below [15] Having our cake and eating it: British Muslim women [16] Home truths in the Muslim family [17] Last but not least: CEDAW and family law [18] Inside the Muslim Brotherhood: "living the other side of existence" [19] Syrian Women's Rights: "the fight does not stop here" [20] It all began on March 8th: feminism and fatwas...... [21] We Moroccan women: we are not impatient, we know that it will come [22] Women's citizenship:implications of the Southern Sudan referendum [23] Pakistan: the Taliban's successful marriage of dogma and custom [24] Egypt: the transition to democracy needs women [25] Human rights, fundamentalism, power and prejudice [26] Topics: Equality $(document).ready(function () { $("div#contentgrid").removeClass('grid-8');$("div#contentgrid").addClass('grid-6'); }); About the author

Shirin Ebadi is an Iranian human rights lawyer who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2003 [27].In 1975–79 she served as president of Tehran’s city court, but was forced to resignafter the 1979 revolution. In the 1980s, she founded the Association for Children’s Rights, andwas briefly jailed for her exposure of plans to assassinate dissidents. Among her books are TheRights of the Child: a study of legal aspects of children's rights in Iran (1994), and The History andDocumentation of Human Rights in Iran (2000). Related Articles Promise and peril: women and the ‘Arab spring’ [2]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]Egypt: the two faces of liberation [3]Zainab Magdy [29]The rightful place of gender equality within Islam [4]Janine Moussa [30]Egypt after Mubarak: finding truth in transition [5]Marc Michael [31]A tangled web: the politics of gender in Turkey [6]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]Statement from the Coalition of Women's NGO's in Egypt [7]Egypt: from equality of purpose to equality on the ground [8]Margaret Owen [32]Musawah: there cannot be justice without equality [9]Cassandra Balchin [33]Musawah: solidarity in diversity [10]Cassandra Balchin [33]The right to have rights: resisting fundamentalist orders [11]Deepa Shankaran [34]Gender in Afghanistan: pragmatic activism [12]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]Conflict and Custom in the New World Order : a conversation with Gita Sahgal[13]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]'Soft law' and hard choices: a conversation with Gita Sahgal [14]Gita Sahgal [35]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]Negotiating with the Taliban: the view from below [15]Deniz Kandiyoti [28]Having our cake and eating it: British Muslim women [16]Cassandra Balchin [33]Home truths in the Muslim family [17]Cassandra Balchin [33]Last but not least: CEDAW and family law [18]Cassandra Balchin [33]Inside the Muslim Brotherhood: "living the other side of existence" [19]Jane Gabriel [36]Syrian Women's Rights: "the fight does not stop here" [20]Jane Gabriel [36]It all began on March 8th: feminism and fatwas...... [21]Jane Gabriel [36]We Moroccan women: we are not impatient, we know that it will come [22]Jane Gabriel [36]Women's citizenship:implications of the Southern Sudan referendum [23]Pilar Domingo [37]Leni Wild [38]Pakistan: the Taliban's successful marriage of dogma and custom[24]Sana Haroon [39]Egypt: the transition to democracy needs women [25]Lesley Abdela [40]Human rights, fundamentalism, power and prejudice [26]Vijay Nagaraj [41] Subjects

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Shirin Ebadi: who defines Islam?Published on openDemocracy (https://www.opendemocracy.net)

Equality [42]

50.50 Gender Politics Religion [43]

Women and the Arab Spring [44]

Arab Region: The Dignity of Women [45]

Pathways of Women's Empowerment [46]

women's movements [47]

women's human rights [48]

women and power [49]

patriarchy [50]

gender justice [51]

gender [52]

fundamentalisms [53]

bodily autonomy [54]

50.50 newsletter [55]

Related Articles Promise and peril: women and the ‘Arab spring’ [2]

Deniz Kandiyoti [28] Egypt: the two faces of liberation [3]

Zainab Magdy [29] The rightful place of gender equality within Islam [4]

Janine Moussa [30]

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[3] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/zainab-magdy/egypt-two-faces-of-liberation[4]https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/janine-moussa/rightful-place-of-gender-equality-within-islam[5] https://www.opendemocracy.net/opensecurity/marc-michael/egypt-after-mubarak-finding-truth-in-transition[6] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deniz-kandiyoti/tangled-web-politics-of-gender-in-turkey[7] https://www.opendemocracy.net/statement-from-coalition-of-womens-ngos-in-egypt[8] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/margaret-owen/egypt-from-equality-of-purpose-to-equality-on-ground[9] https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/email/musawah-there-cannot-be-justice-without-equality[10] https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/musawah-solidarity-in-diversity[11] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deepa-shankaran/right-to-have-rights-resisting-fundamentalist-orders[12]https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deniz-kandiyoti/gender-in-afghanistan-pragmatic-activism[13] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deniz-kandiyoti/conflict-and-custom-in-new-world-order-conversation-with-gita-sahgal[14] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deniz-kandiyoti-gita-sahgal/soft-law-and-hard-choices-conversation-with-gita-sahgal[15] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/deniz-kandiyoti/negotiating-with-taliban-view-from-below[16] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/cassandra-balchin/having-our-cake-and-eating-it-british-muslim-women[17]https://www.opendemocracy.net/article/home-truths-the-demand-for-equality-in-the-muslim-family[18]https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/cassandra-balchin/last-but-not-least-cedaw-and-family-law[19] https://www.opendemocracy.net/audio/5050/afaf_el_sayyed[20] https://www.opendemocracy.net/audio/syrian-womens-rights-the-fight-does-not-stop-here[21]https://www.opendemocracy.net/audio/jane-gabriel/feminism-and-fatwas-it-all-began-on-march-8th[22] https://www.opendemocracy.net/audio/jane-gabriel/we-moroccan-women-we-are-not-impatient-we-know-that-it-will-come[23] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/leni-wild-pilar-domingo/womens-citizenshipimplications-of-southern-sudan-referendum[24] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/sana-haroon/pakistan-talibans-successful-marriage-of-dogma-and-custom[25] https://www.opendemocracy.net/lesley-abdela/egypt-transition-to-democracy-needs-women[26] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/vijay-nagaraj/human-rights-fundamentalism-power-and-prejudice[27] http://www.nobel.se/peace/laureates/2003/index.html[28] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/deniz-kandiyoti[29] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/zainab-magdy[30] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/janine-moussa[31] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/marc-michael[32] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/margaret-owen[33] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/cassandra-balchin[34] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/deepa-shankaran[35] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/gita-sahgal[36] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/jane-gabriel[37] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/pilar-domingo[38] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/leni-wild[39] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/sana-haroon[40] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/lesley-abdela[41] https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/vijay-nagaraj[42] https://www.opendemocracy.net/topics/equality[43] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/5050-gender-politics-religion[44] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/women-and-arab-spring[45] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/arab-region-dignity-of-women[46] https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/pathways-of-women%27s-empowerment

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