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triad pairs examples - Google GroupsJoey Goldstein

Post replyMore message actions3/13/10

Other recipients:- show quoted text [email protected] wrote:> On Mar 12, 12:17 pm, Steve Knight wrote:>> There are a lot of good postings in the RMMGJ archives on Triad Pairs.>> I'm working on triad pairs now, partially to improve my ear &>> partially to improve my chops. It's fun to practice; but, it>> definitely feels like a "technical exercise" at this point more than a>> musical statement. Making actual music with this approach is still a>> long ways off for me. Can anyone recommend some recordings where a>> musician is using triad pairs in their improvisation? I've heard the>> samples from the Hal Crook "How To Improvise" book, but those are>> pretty short.>>>> Thanks,>>>> SK

>> Wes Montgomery uses them a lot. Transcribe almost any of his octave> solos over a vamp and you'll find some triad pair licks. He doesn't> always play the triad pair verbatim, but you can hear how he uses> triad pairs and sequences in thirds to organize his solos over vamps.>

Can you cite some specific examples Tom?The only time I've been aware of Wes playing any type of a triad pairidea is when he plays aug triads moving up the neck in whole steps, andI have my doubts as to whether he was thinking in terms of the pair ofaug triads vs just playing a harmonized wt scale.

I'm not saying that Wes didn't use triad pairs.Just that I've never noticed him doing that.

Whoever mentioned Kurt Rosenwinkel using them on Intuit is right on themoney I think though.Now, I have yet to lift any of those solos on Inuit but he definitelydoes a whole bunch of triad arpeggiation in his lines.Sometimes I'm not sure if he's just running through a scale, like themel min scale, or whether he's doing triad pairs.Some of his lines, and chords too, remind me of some of the sounds Iencountered when studying with Charlie Banacos.

The example that Charlie cited was McCoy's recording of Passion Dance onThe Real McCoy. I had to lift his solo as part of my lessons with CB.The main theme of the head is based on Ebmaj & Fmaj over F7sus4.So is much of his solo.

--Joey Goldsteinjoegold AT primus DOT ca

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions3/13/10

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triad pairs examples - Google Groups

Other recipients:- show quoted text -tom walls wrote:> On Mar 12, 7:11 pm, andy-uk wrote:>> over a G7 use G triad and F triad. Its up to you to make it music by>> playing thematically. This simple idea can generate many many>> combinations.>> Okay, and I've got V and VI triads over a IMaj7. What else you got?

Hmm.

Walt Weiskopf advocates that approach in his book, as I recall. But Ionly glanced it a couple of times in a music store.He use the pairs of triads to imply a key most of the time and his wholebook is based on 2 maj triads a whole step apart, as I recall. And 2 majtriads a whole step apart is seen by many as being an unambiguous way toimply a key. [I don't really see "keys" that way myself though.]

I believe he advocates superimposing that key feeling over theprevailing key for a bi-tonal effect.

Charlie's approach to triad pairs, as I understood it, was different.He seemed to pick pairs of triads whose tones were all "chord-sound" onthe chord-of-the-moment.Chord-sound is the sum of all chord tones plus any extensions that fitvertically on that chord.Eg. Chord-sound on Cmaj7 would be C E G B D F# and A.[I tend to think of D# and A# as also having a role as chord-sound onthis chord, but #9 and #13 are fairly "exotic" choices for extensions onmaj7 chords in most circles.]

So, over Cmaj7, CB would advocate using mutually exclusive pairs oftriads made up of the tones of the C lydian scale. Eg. C & D, D & Em, Em& F#dim, F#dim & G, G & Am, Am & Bm, Bm & C.

So, usually the idea is that the 2 triads used should not contain anyavoid-notes on the chord-of-the-moment.But sometimes he would violate that notion too.Eg.My first lesson on triad pairs with him involved using Eb & F on F7, andthe Eb triad contain the avoid-note Bb. But then he used Passion Danceas a way of getting me more familiar with that sound, so it became clearthat he was really talking about using these 2 triads on F7sus4 or F11,not F7 per se.

But we also did a lesson on using C & Db on a Cmaj7 or C7 chord, sothat's got 3 avoid notes in that relationship.I think ultimately, after you gain facility with these sounds they arejust available to use as interesting kaleidoscopic colours. And if yourlines are interesting enough you can often get away with superimposingthem over all sorts of stuff that shouldn't "work".

I have some pdfs I can post to my web site if anyone's interested.

One of them is a summary of all the possible ways to combine pairs ofthe regular tertian triads (i.e. maj, min, dim and aug) and givessuggestions as to what chords to use the various triad-pairs over.

The others are all basically lines I wrote as practise over standardchanges of various tunes. Most of these combine the triad pairs conceptwith the other main thing i worked on with CB which had to do with

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triad pairs examples - Google Groupssuperimposing lines based on 7th chords over some other 7th chord (eg.playing a line that outlines Cmaj7 over Fmaj7, etc.).

Let me know.

->> I'm with you on how hard it is to use these musically. One obviousthing that> escaped me completely until a sax player I play with showed me is tonot just> play the triads in a pair as 3 notes (eg CEG DF#A EGC F#AD etc) but to> instead run longer patterns that cover more than one octave. Forexample an> "ascending-descending" pattern might start> CEGce f#dAF#D Gcegc ....>> etc. then do these not linearly, eg> CGEec f#AdDF# ....>>> If you get good at this then playing in say 8th notes gives you groups

of 5,> which give you some interesting rhythmic tension. the longer wordsalso give> it less of a "playing pattern feel".>> This is just theoretical for me. I can do a little of this inpractice, but I> havent gotten this out on the bandstand.>> Paul K>>

There are obviously all sorts of permutations that one can do to thenote order of the 2 triads.

Essentially we're talking about hexatonic (6-tone) scales because thetwo triads used are not supposed to have any common tones.Charlie cautioned me against just running them as scales though. Hethought that the best thing to do was to keep finding ways to cycle backand forth from the sound of one triad to the other which might not comeout if you're just thinking in terms of the scale.Still, many of his exercises did amount to treating these tones as a6-tone scale.

His basic exercises for gaining facility with a pair of triads was asfollows:

Fmaj & Gmaj

Arpeggiate up both triads starting with root position, then 1stinversion then 2nd inversion. Then reverse.Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. PosF A C, G B D |A C F, B D G |C F A, D G B |F A C

2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. PosF A C |D G B, C F A |B D G, A C F |G B D, F A C

Ascend through the F triad and descend through the G triad.Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. PosF A C, D B G |A C F, G D B |C F A, B G D |F A C

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triad pairs examples - Google Groups 2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. PosF A C |B G D, C F A |G D B, A C F |D B G, F A C

Descend through the F triad and ascend through the G triad.Rt. Pos 1st Inv 2nd Inv Rt. PosC A F, G B D |F C A, B D G |A F C, D G B| C A F

2nd Inv 1st Inv Rt. PosC A F |D G B, A F C| B D G, F C A |G B D, B G D| C A F

The obvious rhythm to practise these patterns with is triplets, but theywork well in duple rhythms like 1/8s and 1/16s too.

Then we would do pairs of notes where each note in the pair came fromone of the two triads.

F A, G B| A C, B D| C F, D G| F AF A |D G, C F| B D, A C| G B, F AandF A, B G| A C, D B| etc. (i.e. Ascend through the 1st two notes anddescend through the next two notes.)and

A F, G B| C A, B D| etc. (i.e. Descend through the 1st two notes andascend through the next two notes.)andA F, B G| C A, D B| etc. (i.e. Descend through the 1st two notes anddescend through the next two notes.)

ThenF C, G D| A F, B G| C A, D B| F CF C |D B, C A| B G, A F| G D, F CandF C, D G| etc.andC F, G D| etc.andF C, D G| etc.

Then we'd do pairs of notes in which each of the two notes came fromboth triads.F G, G A, A B, B C, C D, D F, F GF G, D F, C D, B C, A B, G A, F GandF G, A G, A B, C B, etc.andG F, G A, B A, B C, etc.andG F, A G, B A, C B, etc.

ThenF B, G C, A D, B F, C G, D A, F Betc.andF B, C G, A D, F B, etc.andB F, G C, D A, B F, etc.andF B, C G, D A, F B, etc.

ThenF D, G F, A G, B A, C B, D C, F Detc.

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triad pairs examples - Google GroupsWe would also do other manipulations with the tones of this hexatonicscale that amounted to what he called "non-tertian-triads", i.e. triadsthat are not built in thirds.For instance...This scale is: F G A B C D FWe would take 3 tones of the scale, eg. G A B and treat it as if it wasa triad. Initial Pos is G A B. "1st Rotation" is A B G. and "2ndRotation" is B G A.We would juxtapose that triad with a triad made up of the remaining 3tones of the scale, C D F which rotates to D F C and F C D.

This makes for patterns like this:G A B, F C D| A B G, C D F| B G A, D F C| G A Betc.

And all of this stuff, as hard as it is to assimilate, is just the tipof the iceberg if you really want to explore the possibilities of thistechnique.

Note: All of the above patterns will work over the following chords:G7sus4, Dm7, Fmaj7, F7, B7altTry them also over Db7 when it's functioning as SubV7 in C.

Also not too bad over Bm7b5.

Jerry Bergonzi's book Hexatonics is probably the best source out therefor more information on these techniques.

-

In all these examples you seem to alternate 3 (or 2) note fragments from onetriad and the other. What about 4 or 5 or 6 etc fragment from one triadbeforeswitching to the other? is that considered not part of the concept?

Does this work best in a situation when the harmony is largely static?or asa "going outside" method over changes?

and, having shedded this with (CB pushing you, I assume) did this stick? Doyou hear enough of this to improvise comfortably with these ideas now that afew years have gone by?

> Sometimes I'm not sure if he's just running through a scale, like the> mel min scale, or whether he's doing triad pairs.

I wasn't used to the sound of triad pairs. I had thought he wasrunning a scale, too. I'm familiar with that approach. Now I can hearthat he could be thinking triad pairs.

> The example that Charlie cited was McCoy's recording of Passion Dance on> The Real McCoy. I had to lift his solo as part of my lessons with CB.

Great example. I can definitely hear the triad pairs there.

> The main theme of the head is based on Ebmaj & Fmaj over F7sus4.> So is much of his solo.

Ah, not F7, but F7sus4. That's why I don't mind the Eb triad againstthe chord. I had read that using major triads a whole step apart is agood place to start (probably from one of your previous posts, Joey--

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triad pairs examples - Google Groupsthank you), but didn't like the sound (or wasn't use to it) whenplaying F & G triads over a G7. I much prefer the sound of playing G &A over G7. I'll give the F & G another shot over a G7sus. Obviouslyit sounds great when McCoy Tyner is playing it!

SK

Steve KnightPost replyMore message actions3/13/10

Other recipients:> Check out Bergonzi's "Hexatonics" - basically, pentatonics with an> extra tone set up as triad pairs. Play along and lots of examples> ibid.>> -Danhttp://danadler.com

Thank you for the tip, Dan. I actually looked at some excerpts fromthis book last night on Bruce Saunders' website. My take on the bookwas that it looked great, but was a bit too advanced for me now. Just

working on playing two triads in up/up, up/down, down/up, down/downsequences up and across the neck is keeping me busy for now. I willprobably order the book eventually.

SK

"Joey Goldstein" schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:[email protected]...

> [email protected] wrote:>> Wes Montgomery uses them a lot. Transcribe almost any of his octave>> solos over a vamp and you'll find some triad pair licks. He doesn't>> always play the triad pair verbatim, but you can hear how he uses

>> triad pairs and sequences in thirds to organize his solos over vamps.>>>> Can you cite some specific examples Tom?> The only time I've been aware of Wes playing any type of a triad pairidea> is when he plays aug triads moving up the neck in whole steps, and I have> my doubts as to whether he was thinking in terms of the pair of augtriads> vs just playing a harmonized wt scale.>> I'm not saying that Wes didn't use triad pairs.> Just that I've never noticed him doing that.>> --> Joey Goldstein

it was one of his favourite devices. for example in the third bar of thethird chorus of four on six he plays f-triad, c-triad and bb-triad overGm7.

>> I've got a few triad pair types and patterns from within those types> that I've worked real hard on. (I'm especially fond of the triad pairs> that can be extracted from the diminished scale.)

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triad pairs examples - Google Groups>> I'm embarrassed to admit it but a lot of what I do in this regard is> basically regurgitating things I've practised, especially when I'm> trying to play fast.> But every once in a while I do put things together in a way that I have> not done before, and to me, that's what improvising is. The trick is to> not play it unless you're actually hearing it. I.e. Just knowing that it> will "work" is not really enough.> And the Catch 22 here is that you can't learn to hear this stuff unless> you work your ass off at it.>>>

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triad pairs - Google Groups

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions8/31/03

Other recipients:

- show quoted text -Max Leggett wrote:>> I'm interested in the concept of triad pairs, and have found two books> on the subject: Triad Pairs for Jazz: Practice and Application for the> Jazz Improviser by Gary Campbell, and; Intervallic Improvisation by> Weikopf. The latter has the distinct advantage of being much less> expensive. Has anyone any experience with either book?

The Weiskopff book is very similar to one exercise I did with CharlieBanacos but Weiskoff does not really run with the idea and lead you toall the implications of it.The other book I don't know but the title sounds about right.Other names for the concept, while sounding somewhat pretentious,

actually hint a bit more as to how to use the idea. "Bi-Tonal Pendulums"or "Double Mambos".It's a yin/yang kind of thing where you set up two recognizable soundsand swing back and forth between them.

Here's a link to a pdf file with a summary I made up of all the possiblemutually exclusive triad pairs using standard triads (maj, min, aug anddim).

The uses (last column on the right) in parentheses are fairly exotic.

With any triad pair the basic exercises to get the sound in your ear are:

going up from the bottom of the 1st triad alternating with the othertriad through the 3 inversions:triad 1 root pos, triad 2 root pos, triad 1 1st inv, triad 2 1st inv,triad 1 2nd inv, triad 2 2nd inv.

For F & G triads the notes would be:F A C, G B D, A C F, B D G, C F A, D G B, F

Then use the same scheme going downwards:F A C, D G B, C F A, B D G, A C F, G B D, F

Then go down each triad:C A F, D B G, F C A, G D B, A F C, B G D, CC A F, B G D, A F C, etc.

Then go up the 1st triad and down the 2nd:F A C, D B G, A C F, G D B, etc.

Then go down the 1st up the 2nd:C A F, G B D, F C A, etc.

Then try the possible combinations of 2 notes from each chord:F A, G B, A C, B D, C F, D G, F etc.A F, B G, C A, etc.F A, B G, A C, etc.A F, G B, C A, etc.

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triad pairs - Google Groupsas well asF C, G D, A F, B G, etc,etc.

Then try groups of two notes, like above but with one note from each triad:F B, G C, A D, B F, C G, D A, Fetc.orF D, G F, A G, B A, C B, D C, Fetc.

Then try using the hexatonic scale derived from the triad pair moreloosely (in this case F G A B C D F) but always trying to keep thebitonal pendulum swinging in such a way that you can still hear the twotonal centers alternating.

Practice the same patterns with the other DMs on the list. Good luckfinding fingerings! Even if you never use a single DM on a gig it'sworth practicing this stuff just to learn to overcome the fingeringobstacles on the guitar.

And those are just the tertian arrangements of the notes! We also

got into non tertian triads. These can (but don't have to) be derivedfrom the same hexatonic scales implied by the possible tertian DMs.

Eg. From the hexatonic scale formed by F and G (F G A B C D F) we mightpick any 3 notes from this scale and alternate them with the remaining 3.G A B (non tertian triad #1)C D F (non tertian triad #2)I found it helpful to try to give these triads names.I call G A B "Gs" for "G major secundal", i.e. built in seconds.I call C D F "Dm7(no5th)".

Some non tertian patterns (It's fun to say "non tertian bi-tonalpendulums" using those 2 triads:G A B, F C D, A B G, C D F, B G A, D F C, GG A B, D C F, A B G, F D C, B G A, C F D, G

etc.Try using a synth with an organ sound playing the chord that you aresuperimposing the DM onto in the background. I used to put a chair ontop of the sutain pedal.

All the patterns above built from F & G sound great over the followingchords:G7sus4, Fmaj7, Dm7, E7sus4b9, B7alt,A more exotic use is on Db7 as V7 in Gb. It's like implying G7 as atritone sub. Careful with the note C on Db7!

The unusual intervals you get from this technique, the way it opens upyour chops and your ears has been really fascinating for me. Timeconsuming, but fascinating.

The really hard part for me has been in applying these sounds to realtunes with moving changes. Being able to switch from 1 DM to the otherand voice leading them together is a total mind fuck but it can be done.

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsJoey Goldstein

I've never really understand why guys like Weiskopf and this guy useidea of the IV and V triads of the major scale as being the only 2triads worthy of extraction from that scale. If anybody out there canexplain this to me i'd appreciate it.

But....Any diatonic scale contains 7 different potential triad pairs. I.e.Pairs of triads with no common tones.In the case of the C major scale, or any of its modes, we have thefollowing pairs of triads:C & DmDm & EmEm & FF & GG & AmAm & BdimBdim & C

The way I learned to apply triad pairs on specific chords, in my lessons

with Charlie Banacos, the essential idea was to use triads whose notesdid note contain any avoid notes on the chord being played over.So on a C chord, as I in C, we would have normally note used any triadsthat contained the note F, which rules out the pair F & G.On C, as I, the normal pair to use is G & Am.

Now, sometimes it's nice to have an avoid note in there too.I.e. There is nothing that says you can't use F & G, or C & Dm, or Dm &Em, or Em & F or Am & Bdim on a C chord. But generally, if you do that,you have to be a bit more careful.

Any 6-tone scale *is* a triad pair played as a scale.Any 7-tone scale will yield 7 triad pairs.8-tone scales will have even more.

The triad pairs that an be extracted from C mel min are:Cm & Dm [works great over Cm, Cm6 and Cm(maj7), D7sus4b9, F7, Am9b5, andB7alt]Dm & Eb+ [works great over Cm, Cm6, Cm(maj7), D7sus4b9, F7, Am9b5, andB7alt]Eb+ & F etc.F & GG & AdimAdim & Bdim (very cool sound)Bdim & Cm[Note that the guy in the video uses F and G+ as the important triads ofc mel min. But the augmented triad that's found in the mel min scale isreally built on bIII, not V. So, IMO he should be talking about Eb+ & Frather than about F & G+, but that blows the whole concept of theprimacy of the IV and V chords out the window.]

The triad pairs within C harm min are:Cm & DdimDdim & Eb+Eb+ & Fm (not Fm & G+)Fm & GG & AbAb & BdimBdim & Cm[C harm min also contains the tones of Abm with the B nat beingenharmonic to Cb. But Abm happens to share a common tone with all the

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triad pairs article - Google Groupsother triads within the C harm min scale so we can't form any triadpairs with Abm while staying within the confines of C harm min.]

Similar triad pairs exist within the harm maj scale.

Triad pairs can also be extracted from the harm min b5 scale and the melmin b5 scale, but the results will be weirder and more unwieldy in thatsome triads won't be in root position.Here's C mel min b5 (aka C octotonic diminished with Ab omitted)C D Eb F Gb A BIt yields the following pairs of adjacent triads built in step-wise thirds:C Eb Gb (Cdim) & D F A (Dm)D F A (Dm) & Eb Gb B (B/D#)Eb Gb B (B/D#) & F A C (F)Etc.Etc.

Any 7-tone scale with consecutive 1/2 steps will be even more unwieldy.

The octotonic diminished scale contains several potential triad pairs,some of which have roots that are not adjacent to each other.D E F G Ab Bb B Db

Ddim & EdimEdim & FdimFdim & Gdimetc.G & Db, Gm & Dbm, G & Dbm, Gb & DbBb & E, Bbm & Em, Bb & Em, Bbm & E[Note: All of the above D dim scale triad pairs will "work" over G7,Bb7, Db7, and E7 as well over Ddim7, Fdim7, Abdim7 and Bdim7.]

The WT scale *is* two aug triads with roots a whole step apart. Eg. G+ &A+ *is* the G WT scale.

The symmetrical augmented scale is two aug triads with roots a min 3rdapart (or a min 2nd apart depending on how you're looking at it). Eg. C+& Eb+ forms the C symmetrical augmented scale (C Eb E G G# B C).

And all that stuff above is done without invoking any non-tertian triadtypes as components of your triad pairs, like sus4 triads and majb5triads, etc.

> --> Joey Goldstein

Certainly, all the books that deal with triad pairs (Campbell/Weiskopf) or hexatonics (Bergonzi) do cover these combinations, butthey don't organize the information by scale/mode, but rather by thecombinations that need to be practiced (16 basic combinations byBergonzi's count).

The way I see it, the problem with triad pairs is not figuring outwhich ones to play over each scale/mode in an isolated fashion, butgetting them in your ears and under your fingers in such a way thatyou can hear them and access them musically at the right time(especially on guitar). So, all these authors give you exercises forthat.

Bergonzi's book goes a step further by giving you exercises forswitching pairs rapidly (the ascending and descending grids) andbacking tracks to try and play over with specific suggestions of pairs

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triad pairs article - Google Groupsto use (sometimes multiple per bar).

This stuff is HARD! I think it probably takes more than 5 years tomaster on guitar (assuming you don't practice it all day).

-Danhttp://danadler.com

Uil LoiPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

Other recipients:On Aug 3, 1:28 am, Joey Goldstein wrote:> But....> Any diatonic scale contains 7 different potential triad pairs. I.e.> Pairs of triads with no common tones.> In the case of the C major scale, or any of its modes, we have the> following pairs of triads:> C & Dm

> Dm & Em> Em & F> F & G> G & Am> Am & Bdim> Bdim & C

I've played around with the idea: for the common chord families we canfind the scales that contain them and that have no avoid notes (e.g. CLydian over Cmaj).

Of the usual nine scales (major, minor melodic, minor harmonic, majorharmonic, minor melodic b5, minor harmonic b5, whole tone, diminished,augmented) let's not consider the last three since the diminished issomehow already represented by the harmonic minor b5 and the melodic

minor b5, and since the whole tone and the augmented have six notesare are obvious hexatones.

So I'm left with 6 scales of seven notes (and their modes). If fromeach I remove the root (for no good reason other than avoiding themost obvious sound against the given chord), I'm left with six notes(that can be seen as triad pairs) that will work over the chord andcontain no avoid notes.

Here's some common chords and the resulting triads (linked to thescale modes)

Cm7 - Dm + Eb (2nd mode of Major scale) - D + Eb (4th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)

C7 (#11) - D + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor scale) - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor b5)

Cmaj - D + Em (4th mode of Major scale) - D#dim + Em (6th mode of Harmonic Major scale)

Cm7b5 - Dmin + Ebm (6th mode of Melodic Minor scale)

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triad pairs article - Google Groups - Dm + Ebm (2nd mode of Harmonic Major scale)

C7 altered 9ths and 5ths - Dbm + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor)

C7b9 (natural 5th) - Dbdim + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale) - F#m + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale) - A + Eb (2nd mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)

C7#9 (natural 5th) - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)

Mike NeerPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

Other recipients:Such a great, detailed post, JG.

The first time I'd ever heard of this kind of approach was in theEddie Harris book, The Intervallistic Concept. There is a very simplechart called Identifying Chords, which lists a large number of chordsand uses triad pairs to define them. It's still the best guide I'veseen.

BTW, if anyone is interested in purchasing the Weiskopf book and theGary Campbell book, you can have them both for $25. My copies arelike new. Send me an email.

Joey Goldstein

>> (cut)>

>>> [Note that the guy in the video uses F and G+ as the important triads of>> c mel min. But the augmented triad that's found in the mel min scale is>> really built on bIII, not V. So, IMO he should be talking about Eb+& F>> rather than about F& G+, but that blows the whole concept of the

>> primacy of the IV and V chords out the window.]>>> I can't answer any of your questions, but to the extent that oneaccepts that> F&G are the first pair to consider for C maj, then it is easy to remember> that for Cmelodic minor just change the G to a G+.

But first I've got to accept the F & G thing.The only justifications I can see for treating these two triads as beingso important to this particular scale are:1. Maj triads are the strongest sound harmonically in all of harmony(based on the overtone series), and within the diatonic scale there isonly one possible triad pair that consists of two adjacent maj triads.2. Two major chords a whole step apart, when they occur inkey-based-music, gives a very strong indication of what the tonic ofthat key might be.But IMO that's only true if the music eventually resolves to that tonic.Eg. A repeating vamp of Fmaj to Gmaj that never resolves to the note Cor to a Cmaj chord is not necessarilly in "the key of C".

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsThe guy in those videos keeps talking like the modes of the diatonicscale of which C major is a subset are all "in the key of C".To my way of thinking that's simply not true.A aeolian is by definition *not* "in C major". Its tonic is A andthere's an Am chord usually built on that tonic. If it's "in a key" atall that key is the key of A minor.E phrygian is *not* "in C major".Etc., etc.[And two min triads a whole step apart (eg, Dm & Em) give just as strongan indication of what the tonic might be (assuming the music is actuallykey-based) as two maj triads a whole step apart.Ditto for a min triad a 1/2 step below a maj triad (eg. Em & F), and adim triad a 1/2 step below a maj triad (eg. Bdim & C).]

> So it might be> unjustifiable theoretically but simpler mnemonically than F&Eb+, since the> only change is the D->D#

But if I accepted points number 1 & 2 above for the major scale and itsmodes, then I'd also have to accept them for any other scale used inkey-based-music that has two major triads a whole step apart, like themel min scale.

So by that logic F & G is just as archetypal of the mel min scale andminor keys as it is of the maj scale and major keys.

Notice how with F & G in "the key of C major" the only note missing fromthe C scale is E, the key's major mediant and the one note that trulydelineates C major from C minor.In this approach to triad pairs, why must the minor mediant be presentin minor keys when the major mediant doesn't need to be present in themajor key?It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'd be fine if they just said things like: "I like using this particulartriad pair on these chords or in these modal situations, etc."But this notion of there being some sort of primacy to F & G, out of allthen other possible triad pairs in the c maj scale, doesn't seem tenable

to me.In key-based-music, the IV and V chords are the archetypal "away fromhome" chords that are used to create harmonic movement away from thetonic and the tonic chord as well as movement back to the tonic and thetonic chord.In minor keys, the regular form of IV is IVm while the regular form of Vis V (as opposed to modal version of V which is Vm).So, in minor keys the chords that perform the same function as the IVand V chords do in major keys are IVm and V, not IVm and V+ which arehis triad picks for the harm min scale.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. There's no real logicalconsistency that can see.

> As to why F&G, I can only imagine that since they fit OK on a II-V inCmaj,

Except for the C chord.I believe that these guys are advocating using F & G on the C chord too.

> and so they might be useful as a first foray into using triad pairspatterns> to create some tension with this kind of structure over a V chord.

Dm & Em fit even more snuggly on a II-V in C (except for the C chord).Page 5

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsWhy not crown them King?

But this guy and Weiskopf aren't just using F & G on a II-V in C.They're advocating using that triad pair on any of the "modes of the Cmajor sale" and by extension on any progression or chord that's diatonicto the key of C.Now, there's no real reason not to do that, as long as you're aware ofany min 2nds or b9s that occur between the notes in the triads and thenotes in the chords you're playing over.But to my sway of thinking, by not also looking at the other triad pairswithin that scale, you're missing the bigger picture.

For example:On an A aeolian vamp, like the A sections of Sea Journey, I might use F& G - but I'd be careful how I use the note F because it tends to clasha bit with the underlying harmony if not treated sensitively and/orresolved musically.But if I use G & Am instead, I don't have to deal with that.

Now, I'm not saying that the only logical way to use triad pairs is topick triads that don't have any avoid notes on the chord that you'replaying over, but that's a pretty strong strategy overall in my

experience, especially when you're getting started with this stuff.

I like to try to remain cognisant that most of the useful triad pairsare simply just like the regular 7-note scales (maj, mel min, harm min,harm maj) with one note omitted. If there's a potential avoid note on agiven chord I'll often choose that as the note to leave out.

The triad pairs that exist within the dim scale can likewise be seen asjust omitting 2 notes of an 8-note scale.

> Paul K

> -Dan> http://danadler.com

Charlie had favourite triad pairs for the various possible chord typestoo. Often he would pick triads that had a chromatic note in the keylike using Am & Bm on Cmaj7 as Imaj7.

As I recall, without consulting my notes:On a vanilla G7 or G7sus4 he like F & G.

On Cmaj7 he liked Am & Bm. This brings in the lydian #4 sound which maysound odd sometimes when Cmaj7 is functioning as Imaj7.He also liked C & Db over Cmaj7 in some instances - so there's your useof avoid notes right there. This sounds more at home on Cmaj7 as bVImaj7in E minor. Comes from E harm min.

On Dm7 he liked Em & F.

On G7b9 he like G & Db, from the dim scale, or any of the other triadpairs in the dim scale.

On G7sus4b9 he liked Gm & Ab+ (from F mel min).

Etc.

--Page 6

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsJoey Goldsteinjoegold AT primus DOT ca

Paul KPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

Other recipients:Joey Goldstein wrote:> On 8/2/2010 9:58 PM, Paul K wrote:>> Joey Goldstein wrote:>>>>> As to why F&G, I can only imagine that since they fit OK on a II-V inCmaj,>> Except for the C chord.> I believe that these guys are advocating using F & G on the C chord too.

I agree that that will be weak, although sometimes I feel that on a sax youcan get away with more than you can on guitar or piano.

>>> and so they might be useful as a first foray into using triad pairspatterns>> to create some tension with this kind of structure over a V chord.>> Dm & Em fit even more snuggly on a II-V in C (except for the C chord).> Why not crown them King?

Sure. Then C melodic minor would correspond to Dm and Eb+, mnemonicallyspeaking.

I have no idea why they do this. As a novice with this stuff, I take thepoint of view that I'll get more into my playing by working on a fewspecificpairs rather than trying to internalize the huge number of possibilities atonce. Perhaps their experience lead them to advocate this as the place tostart. Advocating F on a Cmaj chord is going to be problematic, butpresumablyanyone looking at this approach is already aware of that.

Or maybe they distingish between exercises and their application, and theyaren't advocatingF&G when actually improvising on C. Like others said upstream, the obviousfirst place to use F&G is Fmaj.

--Paul K

http://www.youtube.com/TopologyPaul http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk http://php.indiana.edu/~pkirk/

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

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triad pairs article - Google Groups

Other recipients:On 8/3/2010 11:21 AM, Uil Loi wrote:> On Aug 3, 1:28 am, Joey Goldstein wrote:>> But....>> Any diatonic scale contains 7 different potential triad pairs. I.e.>> Pairs of triads with no common tones.>> In the case of the C major scale, or any of its modes, we have the>> following pairs of triads:>> C& Dm>> Dm& Em>> Em& F>> F& G>> G& Am>> Am& Bdim>> Bdim& C

>> I've played around with the idea: for the common chord families we can> find the scales that contain them and that have no avoid notes (e.g. C> Lydian over Cmaj).>

> Of the usual nine scales (major, minor melodic, minor harmonic, major> harmonic, minor melodic b5, minor harmonic b5, whole tone, diminished,> augmented) let's not consider the last three since the diminished is> somehow already represented by the harmonic minor b5 and the melodic> minor b5, and since the whole tone and the augmented have six notes> are are obvious hexatones.

If it was me doing this i'd leave out mel min b5 and harm min b5 becausethey're both represented withing the dim scale and because the dim scaleis several times more common than either of these two scales.

> So I'm left with 6 scales of seven notes (and their modes). If from> each I remove the root (for no good reason other than avoiding the> most obvious sound against the given chord), I'm left with six notes> (that can be seen as triad pairs) that will work over the chord and

> contain no avoid notes.>> Here's some common chords and the resulting triads (linked to the> scale modes)>> Cm7> - Dm + Eb (2nd mode of Major scale)> - D + Eb (4th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)

If I were doing this, assuming that I actually understand what it isthat you're trying to do, I'd approach it like this:Chord sound (CS is the sum of all chord tones and available extensionson any given chord) on min7 chords consists of1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13and in some more exotic circles the #11 as well.On Cm7 that's C D Eb F (F#) G A Bb.So the triad pairs to use on Cm7 that contain no avoid notes will be:Cm & Dm, Dm & Eb, Eb & F, F & Gm, Gm & Adim, Adim & Bbas well as the more exoticCdim & Dm, Ebdim & F, Gm7(no5th)/F & F#dim, F#dim & Gm, Bb & Cdim.

> C7 (#11)> - D + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor scale)> - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor b5)

Chord sound on C7#11 is C Db D Eb E F# G A Bb.Page 8

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsChord sound on C9#11 is C D E F# G A BbConstruct your triad pairs from these pitch collections.

> Cmaj> - D + Em (4th mode of Major scale)> - D#dim + Em (6th mode of Harmonic Major scale)

CS on Cmaj7 is C D (D#) E F# G A (A#) B [Exotic extensions are inparentheses.]

> Cm7b5> - Dmin + Ebm (6th mode of Melodic Minor scale)> - Dm + Ebm (2nd mode of Harmonic Major scale)

CS on Cm7b5 is C D Eb F Gb Ab (A) Bb

> C7 altered 9ths and 5ths> - Dbm + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor)

The entire altered dominant scale is CS on an alt dom chord.So on C7alt CS is C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb

> C7b9 (natural 5th)> - Dbdim + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)> - F#m + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)> - A + Eb (2nd mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)

CS on C7b9 is C Db Eb E F# G Ab A Bb

> C7#9 (natural 5th)> - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)

CS on C7#9 is the same as i is on C7b9, but the maj 9th can also beincluded if you're careful with it.

Ultimately, the more you work with triad pairs the less important it is

to remain cognisant all the time of the more familiar 7-note or 8-notescale from which you are deriving the triads.You really start seeing them as being two 3-note chords that you happento be superimposing over whatever the prevailing harmony happens to be.Outside of working out the fingerings and getting the sounds in yourear, the mental discipline of keeping track of the inter-relations ofall 3 chords is the challenge.

Charlie always cautioned me against visualizing triad pairs as 6-notescales. He wanted me to think of them and to hear them as what he called"bi-tonal pendulums", i.e. two clearly delineated tonal centres (i.e.chords) swinging back and forth.But sometimes just thinking of them as 6-note scales is cool too.

--Joey Goldsteinjoegold AT primus DOT ca

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsOther recipients:- show quoted text -On 8/3/2010 12:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:> On 8/3/2010 11:21 AM, Uil Loi wrote:>> On Aug 3, 1:28 am, Joey Goldstein wrote:>>> But....>>> Any diatonic scale contains 7 different potential triad pairs. I.e.>>> Pairs of triads with no common tones.>>> In the case of the C major scale, or any of its modes, we have the>>> following pairs of triads:>>> C& Dm>>> Dm& Em>>> Em& F>>> F& G>>> G& Am>>> Am& Bdim>>> Bdim& C>>>> I've played around with the idea: for the common chord families we can>> find the scales that contain them and that have no avoid notes (e.g. C>> Lydian over Cmaj).>>

>> Of the usual nine scales (major, minor melodic, minor harmonic, major>> harmonic, minor melodic b5, minor harmonic b5, whole tone, diminished,>> augmented) let's not consider the last three since the diminished is>> somehow already represented by the harmonic minor b5 and the melodic>> minor b5, and since the whole tone and the augmented have six notes>> are are obvious hexatones.>> If it was me doing this i'd leave out mel min b5 and harm min b5 because> they're both represented withing the dim scale and because the dim scale> is several times more common than either of these two scales.>>> So I'm left with 6 scales of seven notes (and their modes). If from>> each I remove the root (for no good reason other than avoiding the>> most obvious sound against the given chord), I'm left with six notes>> (that can be seen as triad pairs) that will work over the chord and

>> contain no avoid notes.>>>> Here's some common chords and the resulting triads (linked to the>> scale modes)>>>> Cm7>> - Dm + Eb (2nd mode of Major scale)>> - D + Eb (4th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)>> If I were doing this, assuming that I actually understand what it is> that you're trying to do, I'd approach it like this:> Chord sound (CS is the sum of all chord tones and available extensions> on any given chord) on min7 chords consists of> 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13> and in some more exotic circles the #11 as well.> On Cm7 that's C D Eb F (F#) G A Bb.> So the triad pairs to use on Cm7 that contain no avoid notes will be:> Cm & Dm, Dm & Eb, Eb & F, F & Gm, Gm & Adim, Adim & Bb> as well as the more exotic> Cdim & Dm, Ebdim & F, Gm7(no5th)/F & F#dim, F#dim & Gm, Bb & Cdim.

Sorry. Although Cdim & Dm is cool too, and is representative of triadswith non adjacent step-wise tones, what I should have typed there isCdim & Gm7no3rd/D.Also, Ebdim & F is wrong because there's a common tone. Should have beenEbdim & Gm7no5th/F.

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triad pairs article - Google Groups

Here's a few other triad pairs (utilizing the exotic F#) withnon-adjacent tones and/or non-adjacent roots that can be derived fromthis pitch collection:Cdim & Dm, Gm7no3rd/D & Ebm, Ebdim & Fsus2, Gm7no5th/F & D/F#, F#dim &Eb/G, Adim & Bb+.Dm & Ebm, Ebm & Fsus2, Fsus2 & D/F#, D/F# & Eb/G, F/A & Bb+, Bb+ & Cm.

There may be a few others that I've missed.There may also be some more mistakes that I've missed.

- show quoted text -

>> C7 (#11)>> - D + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor scale)>> - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor b5)>> Chord sound on C7#11 is C Db D Eb E F# G A Bb.> Chord sound on C9#11 is C D E F# G A Bb> Construct your triad pairs from these pitch collections.>>

>> Cmaj>> - D + Em (4th mode of Major scale)>> - D#dim + Em (6th mode of Harmonic Major scale)>> CS on Cmaj7 is C D (D#) E F# G A (A#) B [Exotic extensions are in> parentheses.]>>> Cm7b5>> - Dmin + Ebm (6th mode of Melodic Minor scale)>> - Dm + Ebm (2nd mode of Harmonic Major scale)>> CS on Cm7b5 is C D Eb F Gb Ab (A) Bb>>> C7 altered 9ths and 5ths>> - Dbm + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor)

>> The entire altered dominant scale is CS on an alt dom chord.> So on C7alt CS is C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb>>> C7b9 (natural 5th)>> - Dbdim + Ebm (7th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)>> - F#m + Edim (4th mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)>> - A + Eb (2nd mode of Melodic Minor b5 scale)>> CS on C7b9 is C Db Eb E F# G Ab A Bb>>> C7#9 (natural 5th)>> - D#dim + Edim (6th mode of Harmonic Minor scale)>> CS on C7#9 is the same as i is on C7b9, but the maj 9th can also be> included if you're careful with it.>> Ultimately, the more you work with triad pairs the less important it is> to remain cognisant all the time of the more familiar 7-note or 8-note> scale from which you are deriving the triads.> You really start seeing them as being two 3-note chords that you happen> to be superimposing over whatever the prevailing harmony happens to be.> Outside of working out the fingerings and getting the sounds in your> ear, the mental discipline of keeping track of the inter-relations of> all 3 chords is the challenge.>

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triad pairs article - Google Groups> Charlie always cautioned me against visualizing triad pairs as 6-note> scales. He wanted me to think of them and to hear them as what he called> "bi-tonal pendulums", i.e. two clearly delineated tonal centres (i.e.> chords) swinging back and forth.> But sometimes just thinking of them as 6-note scales is cool too.>

Uil LoiPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

Other recipients:I've done some tests by hand, but it's very easy to make mistakes, soI've improved my page at http://bit.ly/cbcxee

now it shows all the modes, finding out what triads are contained inthem, and what triad pairs are completely distinct (do not contain thesame notes).

The enharmonic notation of the triads is wrong (always uses flat), butit's ok.

It considers only normal triads (maj, min, dim, aug), but others(sus2, sus4, ...) are very easy to add.

Diminished scales generate *lots* of possible triad pairs.

Uil LoiPost replyMore message actions8/3/10

Other recipients:- show quoted text -

On Aug 3, 7:05 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:> > If I were doing this, assuming that I actually understand what it is> > that you're trying to do, I'd approach it like this:> > Chord sound (CS is the sum of all chord tones and available extensions> > on any given chord) on min7 chords consists of> > 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13> > and in some more exotic circles the #11 as well.> > On Cm7 that's C D Eb F (F#) G A Bb.> > So the triad pairs to use on Cm7 that contain no avoid notes will be:> > Cm & Dm, Dm & Eb, Eb & F, F & Gm, Gm & Adim, Adim & Bb> > as well as the more exotic> > Cdim & Dm, Ebdim & F, Gm7(no5th)/F & F#dim, F#dim & Gm, Bb & Cdim.>> Sorry. Although Cdim & Dm is cool too, and is representative of triads> with non adjacent step-wise tones, what I should have typed there is> Cdim & Gm7no3rd/D.> Also, Ebdim & F is wrong because there's a common tone. Should have been> Ebdim & Gm7no5th/F.>> Here's a few other triad pairs (utilizing the exotic F#) with> non-adjacent tones and/or non-adjacent roots that can be derived from> this pitch collection:> Cdim & Dm, Gm7no3rd/D & Ebm, Ebdim & Fsus2, Gm7no5th/F & D/F#, F#dim &> Eb/G, Adim & Bb+.> Dm & Ebm, Ebm & Fsus2, Fsus2 & D/F#, D/F# & Eb/G, F/A & Bb+, Bb+ & Cm.>

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triad pairs article - Google Groups> There may be a few others that I've missed.> There may also be some more mistakes that I've missed.

for Cm, for the Dorian mode (C D Eb F G A Bb) I get the followingtriads

Csus2, Cm, A, Csus4, F, Dm, B , Dsus4, Gm, B sus4, E

the combinations that do not share any common note are

Csus2 & B sus4, Cm & Dm, Cm & B , A & B , A & Gm, F & Gm, F & E , Dm & E , Dsus4 & B sus4

If you want the F# you might get it from the 4th mode of the HarmonicMinor (C D Eb F# G A Bb), whose triads are

Csus2, C, Cm, A, G , D, B +, Dsus4, Gm, E , E m, E

and whose triad pairs are

Csus2 & E , Csus2 & E m, C & Dsus4, C & Gm, Cm & D, Cm & B +, A & B +, A & Gm, G & Gm, G & E , D & E , Dsus4 & E m, Gm & E

Uil LoiPost replyMore message actions8/4/10

Other recipients:Just to complete the list

On Aug 3, 1:28 am, Joey Goldstein wrote:> The triad pairs within C harm min are:> Cm & Ddim> Ddim & Eb+> Eb+ & Fm (not Fm & G+)> Fm & G

> G & Ab> Ab & Bdim> Bdim & Cm

> [C harm min also contains the tones of Abm with the B nat being> enharmonic to Cb. But Abm happens to share a common tone with all the> other triads within the C harm min scale so we can't form any triad> pairs with Abm while staying within the confines of C harm min.]

I think you missed a couple (or I missed the reason why you omittedthem)

Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,A m,

Possible Pairs:Cm & DCm & BCm & F (missing)

Cm & A (missing)D & E +

E + & FmFm & G

G & AA & B

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triad pairs article - Google Groups> Similar triad pairs exist within the harm maj scale.

Triads for C Harmonic Major: C, D, Em, Fm, G, C+, B, F, A , E,

Pairs:C & DC & BC & F

C & A D & EmEm & FmFm & GG & C+C+ & B

> Triad pairs can also be extracted from the harm min b5 scale and the mel> min b5 scale, but the results will be weirder and more unwieldy in that> some triads won't be in root position.> Here's C mel min b5 (aka C octotonic diminished with Ab omitted)> C D Eb F Gb A B> It yields the following pairs of adjacent triads built in step-wisethirds:

> C Eb Gb (Cdim) & D F A (Dm)> D F A (Dm) & Eb Gb B (B/D#)> Eb Gb B (B/D#) & F A C (F)> Etc.> Etc.

Triads for C Melodic Minor b5: C, Dm, B, F, Bm, A, B, E , G , D,

Pairs:C & DmC & BDm & BB & FF & BmBm & A

A & BB & E B & G

Triads Harmonic Minor b5: C, D, B, Fm, Bm, A , B, F, A , A m,

Pairs:C & DC & BC & F

C & A D & BB & FmFm & Bm

Bm & AA & B

> Any 7-tone scale with consecutive 1/2 steps will be even more unwieldy.>> The octotonic diminished scale contains several potential triad pairs,> some of which have roots that are not adjacent to each other.> D E F G Ab Bb B Db> Ddim & Edim> Edim & Fdim> Fdim & Gdim> etc.

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triad pairs article - Google Groups> G & Db, Gm & Dbm, G & Dbm, Gb & Db> Bb & E, Bbm & Em, Bb & Em, Bbm & E

> [Note: All of the above D dim scale triad pairs will "work" over G7,> Bb7, Db7, and E7 as well over Ddim7, Fdim7, Abdim7 and Bdim7.]

Triads for C diminished: C, D, E , F, G , A , A, B, Fm, D, A m, F, Bm, A , Dm, B,

Pairs (!lots of possibilities! we have the obvious 4x4=16 diminishedcouples + 20 others):C & DC & F

C & A C & BC & Dm

D & E D & G

D & AD & B

E & F E & A

E & BE & Fm

F & G F & AF & D

G & A G & B G & A mA & AA & F

A & BA & Bm

B & AFm & DFm & Bm

Fm & BD & A mD & A

A m & FA m & Dm

F & BmF & B

Bm & AA & Dm

Dm & B

>

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions8/4/10

Other recipients:On 8/4/2010 5:14 AM, Uil Loi wrote:> Just to complete the list>> On Aug 3, 1:28 am, Joey Goldstein wrote:

>> The triad pairs within C harm min are:Page 15

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triad pairs article - Google Groups>> Cm& Ddim>> Ddim& Eb+>> Eb+& Fm (not Fm& G+)>> Fm& G>> G& Ab>> Ab& Bdim>> Bdim& Cm

>> [C harm min also contains the tones of Abm with the B nat being>> enharmonic to Cb. But Abm happens to share a common tone with all the>> other triads within the C harm min scale so we can't form any triad>> pairs with Abm while staying within the confines of C harm min.]>> I think you missed a couple (or I missed the reason why you omitted> them)>

> Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,> A m,

>> Possible Pairs:> Cm& D> Cm& B

> Cm& F (missing)> Cm& A (missing)> D& E +

> E +& Fm> Fm& G

> G& A> A & B

Yes, I left out Fdim and Abdim from the original list of tertian triadsconstructed in *scale-wise* thirds.I also forgot about these possible triads when listing the more exoticpossibilities within this scale.Note:G & Abdim have a common tone.Cm & Fdim happen to form the same hexatonic scale as Eb+ & Fm.

Cm & Abdim forms the same hexatonic scale as G & Ab.One of Charlie's techniques involved taking a hexatonic scale andarranging the notes into various combinations of 3 notes vs the 3 notes.Eg. F & G can be arranged as follows:F A C vs G B DF A D vs G B CF B C vs G C Detc., etc.

>> Similar triad pairs exist within the harm maj scale.>

> Triads for C Harmonic Major: C, D, Em, Fm, G, C+, B, F, A , E,>> Pairs:> C& D> C& B> C& F

> C& A > D& Em> Em& Fm> Fm& G> G& C+> C+& B

Right. But the tertian triad built on Ab is Ab+ not Abdim.Page 16

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triad pairs article - Google GroupsAbdim also exists within this scale but only enharmonically speaking.So, it's not really C+ & Bdim. It's Ab+ & Bdim, technically speaking.

C & Fdim is a non adjacent arrangement of the tones of Em & Fm.Etc.

>> Triad pairs can also be extracted from the harm min b5 scale and the mel>> min b5 scale, but the results will be weirder and more unwieldy in that>> some triads won't be in root position.>> Here's C mel min b5 (aka C octotonic diminished with Ab omitted)>> C D Eb F Gb A B>> It yields the following pairs of adjacent triads built in step-wisethirds:>> C Eb Gb (Cdim)& D F A (Dm)>> D F A (Dm)& Eb Gb B (B/D#)>> Eb Gb B (B/D#)& F A C (F)>> Etc.>> Etc.>

> Triads for C Melodic Minor b5: C, Dm, B, F, Bm, A, B, E , G , D,>> Pairs:

> C& Dm> C& B> Dm& B> B& F> F& Bm> Bm& A> A& B

> B& E > B& G

> > Triads Harmonic Minor b5: C, D, B, Fm, Bm, A , B, F, A , A m,

>> Pairs:> C& D> C& B

> C& F> C& A > D& B> B& Fm> Fm& Bm

> Bm& A> A & B

>>> Any 7-tone scale with consecutive 1/2 steps will be even more unwieldy.>>>> The octotonic diminished scale contains several potential triad pairs,>> some of which have roots that are not adjacent to each other.>> D E F G Ab Bb B Db>> Ddim& Edim>> Edim& Fdim>> Fdim& Gdim>> etc.>> G& Db, Gm& Dbm, G& Dbm, Gb& Db>> Bb& E, Bbm& Em, Bb& Em, Bbm& E

>> [Note: All of the above D dim scale triad pairs will "work" over G7,>> Bb7, Db7, and E7 as well over Ddim7, Fdim7, Abdim7 and Bdim7.]>

> Triads for C diminished: C, D, E , F, G , A , A, B, Fm, D, > A m, F, Bm, A , Dm, B,

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triad pairs article - Google Groups>> Pairs (!lots of possibilities! we have the obvious 4x4=16 diminished> couples + 20 others):> C& D> C& F

> C& A > C& B> C& Dm

> D& E > D& G

> D& A> D& B

> E & F > E & A > E & B> E & Fm

> F& G > F& A> F& D

> G & A > G & B > G & A m

> A & A> A & F

> A& B> A& Bm

> B& A> Fm& D> Fm& Bm> Fm& B

> D& A m> D& A

> A m& F> A m& Dm

> F& Bm> F& B

> Bm& A

> A & Dm> Dm& B

>

--Joey Goldsteinjoegold AT primus DOT ca

andy-uk .Post replyMore message actions8/5/10

Other recipients:

>> Oh jeez, here I thought you guys were discussing the further antics of> rival Chinese Mafia gangs.>

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triad pairs article - Google Groups.................................................................................

and dyad starring bruce willis...

Uil LoiPost replyMore message actions8/5/10

Other recipients:On Aug 4, 7:29 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:> On 8/4/2010 5:14 AM, Uil Loi wrote:

> > Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,> > A m,

>> > Possible Pairs:> > Cm& D> > Cm& B> > Cm& F (missing)

> > Cm& A (missing)> > D& E +

> > E +& Fm

> > Fm& G> > G& A

> > A & B>> Yes, I left out Fdim and Abdim from the original list of tertian triads> constructed in *scale-wise* thirds.

Do you think it really matters if we use triards not built scale-wise?I think the ambiguity between augmented seconds and minor thirds inharmonic scales makes even more triads available

> I also forgot about these possible triads when listing the more exotic> possibilities within this scale.> Note:> G & Abdim have a common tone.

I don't see that in my list

> Cm & Fdim happen to form the same hexatonic scale as Eb+ & Fm.> Cm & Abdim forms the same hexatonic scale as G & Ab.

yes, but even if the set of notes is the same, the sequence derivedfrom those triads is different.

> One of Charlie's techniques involved taking a hexatonic scale and> arranging the notes into various combinations of 3 notes vs the 3 notes.> Eg. F & G can be arranged as follows:> F A C vs G B D> F A D vs G B C> F B C vs G C D> etc., etc.>

auch. yes, endless possibilities.this stuff is new to me, and I've been trying to get some music out ofit, but it just sounds like an exercise so far.

When I started playing with the bergonzi patterns, they very quicklybegan to be musical (changing note durations, skipping notes,superimposing rythmic patterns), but this stuff seems to be a lotharder. Can you make them sound musical? Any idea how?

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triad pairs article - Google Groups

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions8/6/10

Other recipients:On 8/5/2010 2:48 AM, Uil Loi wrote:> On Aug 4, 7:29 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:>> On 8/4/2010 5:14 AM, Uil Loi wrote:

>>> Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,>>> A m,

>>>>> Possible Pairs:>>> Cm& D>>> Cm& B>>> Cm& F (missing)

>>> Cm& A (missing)>>> D& E +

>>> E +& Fm>>> Fm& G

>>> G& A

>>> A & B>>>> Yes, I left out Fdim and Abdim from the original list of tertian triads>> constructed in *scale-wise* thirds.>> Do you think it really matters if we use triards not built scale-wise?> I think the ambiguity between augmented seconds and minor thirds in> harmonic scales makes even more triads available>>> I also forgot about these possible triads when listing the more exotic>> possibilities within this scale.>> Note:>> G& Abdim have a common tone.

>

> I don't see that in my listSorry. My bad.

>> Cm& Fdim happen to form the same hexatonic scale as Eb+& Fm.>> Cm& Abdim forms the same hexatonic scale as G& Ab.

>> yes, but even if the set of notes is the same, the sequence derived> from those triads is different.>>> One of Charlie's techniques involved taking a hexatonic scale and>> arranging the notes into various combinations of 3 notes vs the 3 notes.>> Eg. F& G can be arranged as follows:

>> F A C vs G B D>> F A D vs G B C>> F B C vs G C D>> etc., etc.>>>> auch. yes, endless possibilities.> this stuff is new to me, and I've been trying to get some music out of> it, but it just sounds like an exercise so far.>

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triad pairs article - Google Groups> When I started playing with the bergonzi patterns, they very quickly> began to be musical (changing note durations, skipping notes,> superimposing rythmic patterns), but this stuff seems to be a lot> harder. Can you make them sound musical? Any idea how?

Practice them until you can hear them.Then play what you hear.Many of the patterns that you get with these techniques don't reallysound like obvious patterns to your listeners.In order to break up the monotony of an obvious intevalic pattern trybreaking up the rhythms.The guy whose videos started this thread off had some good ideas too.

--Joey Goldsteinjoegold AT primus DOT ca

Dan AdlerPost reply

More message actions8/8/10

Other recipients:- show quoted text -On Aug 5, 7:53 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:> On 8/5/2010 2:48 AM, Uil Loi wrote:>>>>>> > On Aug 4, 7:29 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:> >> On 8/4/2010 5:14 AM, Uil Loi wrote:

> >>> Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,

> >>> A m,>> >>> Possible Pairs:> >>> Cm& D> >>> Cm& B> >>> Cm& F (missing)

> >>> Cm& A (missing)> >>> D& E +

> >>> E +& Fm> >>> Fm& G

> >>> G& A> >>> A & B

>> >> Yes, I left out Fdim and Abdim from the original list of tertian triads> >> constructed in *scale-wise* thirds.>> > Do you think it really matters if we use triards not built scale-wise?> > I think the ambiguity between augmented seconds and minor thirds in> > harmonic scales makes even more triads available>> >> I also forgot about these possible triads when listing the more exotic> >> possibilities within this scale.> >> Note:> >> G& Abdim have a common tone.>> > I don't see that in my list

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triad pairs article - Google Groups>> Sorry. My bad.>>>>>> >> Cm& Fdim happen to form the same hexatonic scale as Eb+& Fm.> >> Cm& Abdim forms the same hexatonic scale as G& Ab.>> > yes, but even if the set of notes is the same, the sequence derived> > from those triads is different.>> >> One of Charlie's techniques involved taking a hexatonic scale and> >> arranging the notes into various combinations of 3 notes vs the 3notes.> >> Eg. F& G can be arranged as follows:> >> F A C vs G B D> >> F A D vs G B C> >> F B C vs G C D> >> etc., etc.>

> > auch. yes, endless possibilities.> > this stuff is new to me, and I've been trying to get some music out of> > it, but it just sounds like an exercise so far.>> > When I started playing with the bergonzi patterns, they very quickly> > began to be musical (changing note durations, skipping notes,> > superimposing rythmic patterns), but this stuff seems to be a lot> > harder. Can you make them sound musical? Any idea how?>> Practice them until you can hear them.> Then play what you hear.> Many of the patterns that you get with these techniques don't really> sound like obvious patterns to your listeners.> In order to break up the monotony of an obvious intevalic pattern try> breaking up the rhythms.

> The guy whose videos started this thread off had some good ideas too.>> --> Joey Goldstein> > > joegold AT primus DOT ca

I found that I still had this on my website:http://danadler.com/misc/MccoySoulEyes.gifwhich I posted a few years ago as one of the first examples thatcaught my ear of triad pairs (triples in this case). This is fromMccoy Tyner's solo on "soul eyes" with Coltrane, and he is playingover the Bb alt. Looking back, I notated it weirdly, but Mccoy's ideais still pretty clear. Hard to believe he came up with this on thespot...

Enjoy,-Danhttp://danadler.com

james seaberryPost replyMore message actions

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triad pairs article - Google Groups8/9/10

Other recipients:- show quoted text -On Aug 8, 3:59 pm, Dan Adler wrote:> On Aug 5, 7:53 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:>>>> > On 8/5/2010 2:48 AM, Uil Loi wrote:>> > > On Aug 4, 7:29 pm, Joey Goldstein wrote:> > >> On 8/4/2010 5:14 AM, Uil Loi wrote:

> > >>> Triads for C Harmonic Minor: Cm, D, E +, Fm, G, A , B, F, A ,> > >>> A m,

>> > >>> Possible Pairs:> > >>> Cm& D> > >>> Cm& B> > >>> Cm& F (missing)

> > >>> Cm& A (missing)> > >>> D& E +

> > >>> E +& Fm> > >>> Fm& G

> > >>> G& A> > >>> A & B

>> > >> Yes, I left out Fdim and Abdim from the original list of tertiantriads> > >> constructed in *scale-wise* thirds.>> > > Do you think it really matters if we use triards not built scale-wise?> > > I think the ambiguity between augmented seconds and minor thirds in> > > harmonic scales makes even more triads available>> > >> I also forgot about these possible triads when listing the moreexotic

> > >> possibilities within this scale.> > >> Note:> > >> G& Abdim have a common tone.>> > > I don't see that in my list>> > Sorry. My bad.>> > >> Cm& Fdim happen to form the same hexatonic scale as Eb+& Fm.> > >> Cm& Abdim forms the same hexatonic scale as G& Ab.>> > > yes, but even if the set of notes is the same, the sequence derived> > > from those triads is different.>> > >> One of Charlie's techniques involved taking a hexatonic scale and> > >> arranging the notes into various combinations of 3 notes vs the 3notes.> > >> Eg. F& G can be arranged as follows:> > >> F A C vs G B D> > >> F A D vs G B C> > >> F B C vs G C D> > >> etc., etc.>> > > auch. yes, endless possibilities.> > > this stuff is new to me, and I've been trying to get some music out of> > > it, but it just sounds like an exercise so far.

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triad pairs article - Google Groups>> > > When I started playing with the bergonzi patterns, they very quickly> > > began to be musical (changing note durations, skipping notes,> > > superimposing rythmic patterns), but this stuff seems to be a lot> > > harder. Can you make them sound musical? Any idea how?>> > Practice them until you can hear them.> > Then play what you hear.> > Many of the patterns that you get with these techniques don't really> > sound like obvious patterns to your listeners.> > In order to break up the monotony of an obvious intevalic pattern try> > breaking up the rhythms.> > The guy whose videos started this thread off had some good ideas too.>

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google GroupsJoey Goldstein has posted here from time to time about usingtriad pairs, and he has some examples on his website iirc.

The main idea in the Campbell "Triad Pairs" book is workingwith 6-note pitch collections built out of adjacent triads in thescale of the moment, e.g. in C major the Fmaj and Gmaj triads.Depending on the scale, the triad roots might be a semitone,a whole tone or a tritone apart. If I get it right, the idea is thatany such six-note collection can be used over any chordwhose scale contains the two adjacent triads. So the Fmaj&Gmajgroup can be used over any chord for which you might play outof the C maj scale, but also (since the same triad pair occurs in Cmel min) any chord over which you might play out of C mel minor,so the pitch collection [ F G A B C D ] applies (page 11) to :

Cmi(Maj7)CMaj7Dsus(b2)Dmi7EbMaj7(#5)Esus(b2)F7(#11)

Fmaj7(#11)G7(b13)Gsus11Amin7b5Ami(b6)Bmin7b5B7alt

So one simple application of this Fmaj&Gmaj pitch collection might be tosolo over vi-ii-V-I in C.

As mentioned in my earlier post, the bulk of the book is practice exercisesto get the various triad pairs under your fingers and into your ears.

I have only just started working through it, so it's a bit early to say how

useful this is going to be ...Paul Craven

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions4/29/02

Other recipients:

Paul Craven wrote:>> If I get it right, the idea is that> any such six-note collection can be used over any chord> whose scale contains the two adjacent triads.

That's one way it can be used.

What i usually concentrate on are the relationships where the tones inthe hexatonic scale are all chord sound on the chord of the moment (i.e.chord tones or trenions but not inharmonics).So generally I would confine my use of the F & G triad pair/scale tochords like:

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google GroupsG7sus4, Fmaj7, Dm7, Cm6, E7sus4b9, F7, B7alt

If the sound of one or two inharmonics (aka avoid notes) on a chord doesnot bother you then you might try this triad pair on any number of otherchords. The following are not too far out:G7, Cmaj7, Em7, Am7, Bm7b5

I sometimes use it to hint at the trione sub relationship between Dm7 G7and Ab7 Db7. I.e. I might use it on Db7.

If you're just playing "out" you use the interseting intervallicpatterns it can generate anywhere for their own sake.

There is a page at my web site called Technical Exercises and I threshout this idea pretty thoroughly with lots of .pdf exercises and evensome composed lines over standard tunes. The lines aren't real good butyou should get the point. I just posted a new file called SummaryDMs.pdfwhich lists all the possible regular (maj, min, dim aug) triad pairs,the scale they create, some scales that they are subsets of and wherethey occur within those scales.

I think you will find that in order to get any mileage out of this

appraoch a serious commitment is involved. This stuff doesn't come easybut I think the rewards, technical dexterity and intervallic awarenessand freedom, are worth it. I've been working on Cdim & Db+ for weeks now.

>>>

NazodesuPost replyMore message actions4/30/02

Other recipients:In article , thomas wrote:

> Triad pairs can be used to generate melodic material for improvisation,> and to develop facility, but taken too far that sort of exercise can> lead to mechanical-sounding solos.

As can almost anything when taken too far.

> What triad pairs are really useful for is harmonizing melodies> and getting new chordal sounds.

This is the direction I've been working in. Not so much the pairsthing, though I understand the principles. I'm trying to get somehandistic ease with triads in general, and the when the time comes, tobe able to easily play a G triad or Em, say, against a CMaj9 chordduring a harmonized improv or comping situation. Primarily the later.

> Works better with piano or band,> where you can have a simple voicing in the left hand, thickening the> melody with triad pairs in the RH. That kind of thing is mostly unplayable> on guitar, but you can still use the pairs to thicken a melody even on> guitar.

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google Groups

Right--you can be one of the pairs.

Dan Adler

Nazo,

I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonictriads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facilitywith this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but thekey is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organizedapproach can get you there but it's a far slower path.

A good example is to take a progression like ||:C | Eb | D | Db :||and just keep the diatonic triads moving in the same direction as youcross chord boundry.

I find the book mentioned above is not useful except for the ideaitself which can be explained in two minutes. The challenge is gettingyour mind and fingers to do it fast enough which is best accomplishedby the "just do it" principle.

-Danhttp://danadler.comhttp://danadler.iuma.com

NazodesuPost replyMore message actions4/30/02

Other recipients:In article , Dan Adler wrote:

> I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic

> triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility> with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the> key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized> approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.

Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions, then 35R and 5R3.The I do the classic exercises with these, starting each on such stepsas 123, 234, 345, 456 and 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6 etc. That kind of stuff. Ofcouse this doesn't really actualize their usage as upper partials, andthough I have the understanding I'm not using them this way, unless I'mactually playing.

I did that condensation of Van Eps, and am working with it very littlebut am starting to turn my attention back to it. In this case it'sstrictly for triad with the moving top line. I play R35 and then movethe 5 to 6 and 7. That stort of stuff.

Sure is fun. Makes me feel so empowered.

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions4/30/02

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google Groups

Nazodesu wrote:>> In article , Dan Adler> wrote:>> > I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic> > triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility> > with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the> > key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized> > approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.>> Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"> diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions,

I hope you're trying them across the fretboard too and not just asposition exercises. The thing about triads is that unlike 7th chordsthey can all be played as three note close voicings and can always bevisualized on 3 consecutive strings. This makes them very much easier to"see" across the fretboard, conceptually speaking, than they are inposition. Plus the consistent string groupings makes for consistentpicking patterns like sweeping.

I find it pretty easy to quickly play a sequence of the inversions ofthe triad pair F & G across the 2nd, 32rd and 4th strings as chords.F A C, G B D, A C F, B D G, C F A, D G B, F A CThere should be no reason why I can't arpeggiate these structures as Ipass through them at the same rate. This type of thing is a lot harderconceptually and physically in any single position (which is one goodreason to practice it in position too!).

The same "horizontal" (across the fretboard, that is) scheme can beapplied to the triads derived from any scale, minus the inversions ofcourse, and using any group of 3 consecutive strings.

F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A CF A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C

F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab CF Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C

This works well with spread triads too. Although the 2 outer strings areconsistent the inner voice might switch from string to string.E C G, F D A, G E B, A F C, etc.

> then 35R and 5R3.> The I do the classic exercises with these, starting each on such steps> as 123, 234, 345, 456 and 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6 etc. That kind of stuff. Of> couse this doesn't really actualize their usage as upper partials, and> though I have the understanding I'm not using them this way, unless I'm> actually playing.>> I did that condensation of Van Eps, and am working with it very little> but am starting to turn my attention back to it. In this case it's> strictly for triad with the moving top line. I play R35 and then move> the 5 to 6 and 7. That stort of stuff.>> Sure is fun. Makes me feel so empowered.

--

Joey GoldsteinGuitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/TeacherHome Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google GroupsEmail:

thomasPost replyMore message actions4/30/02

Other recipients:Nazodesu wrote in messagenews:...>> > Works better with piano or band,> > where you can have a simple voicing in the left hand, thickening the> > melody with triad pairs in the RH. That kind of thing is mostlyunplayable> > on guitar, but you can still use the pairs to thicken a melody even on> > guitar.>> Right--you can be one of the pairs.

That's not exactly what I meant. A pianist's LH (or, say, the trombonesection in a big band) can play a two-note voicing containing the

3rd and 7th under every melody note. If you have a 3-man trombonesection, they might play a 3-note shell voicing. The voicing never changesuntil the chord changes--it just echoes the melodic rhythm. Meanwhile, thepianist's RH (or the trumpet section in the big band) harmonizes themelody by playing whichever one of the two triads you're using thatfits under that melody note. If you have a 4-man trumpet section, the1st and 4th chairs play the melody an octave apart, while the2nd and 3rd chairs play the two other notes in the triad.

This approach gets a huge ensemble sound. It is more contemporary-sounding than having the trumpets harmonize the melody with a4-note block voicing, and sounds even bigger.

On guitar, you can harmonize melodies using the triad pairs, butyou lack the fingers left over to play something more fundamental

underneath.Jack A. Zucker

Post replyMore message actions4/30/02

Other recipients:Joey Goldstein wrote in message>> F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C> F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C> F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C> F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C

I'm not quite sure I follow this chart. Is each line independent ?

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions4/30/02

Other recipients:

- show quoted text -"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google Groups>> Joey Goldstein wrote in message> >> > F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C> > F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C> > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C> > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C>> I'm not quite sure I follow this chart. Is each line independent ?

Yes.#1 is just the C major scale in triads, staring on F major.#2 is the C jazz minor scale in triads, staring on F major.#3 is the C harm minor scale in triads, staring on F minor.#4 is the C harm major scale in triads, staring on F minor.

I started on F chords because the sequences lay out nicely on strings 4,3 and 2. But this should obviously be practiced on any group of 3strings, with any scale (septatonic preferred) starting on any degree,in all 3 inversions.

The arps can be played as follows:

up triad one, up triad two, etc.down triad one, down triad two, etc.up 1, dwn 2, etc.dwn 1, up 2, etc.or any other way you want.

--Joey GoldsteinGuitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/TeacherHome Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.comEmail:

Joey GoldsteinPost replyMore message actions

4/30/02Other recipients:

Joey Goldstein wrote:>> "Jack A. Zucker" wrote:> >> > Joey Goldstein wrote in message> > >> > > F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C> > > F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C> > > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C> > > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C> >> > I'm not quite sure I follow this chart. Is each line independent ?>> Yes.> #1 is just the C major scale in triads, staring on F major.> #2 is the C jazz minor scale in triads, staring on F major.> #3 is the C harm minor scale in triads, staring on F minor.> #4 is the C harm major scale in triads, staring on F minor.>> I started on F chords because the sequences lay out nicely on strings 4,> 3 and 2. But this should obviously be practiced on any group of 3> strings, with any scale (septatonic preferred) starting on any degree,

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triad pairs - Gary Campbell - Google Groups> in all 3 inversions.>> The arps can be played as follows:> up triad one, up triad two, etc.> down triad one, down triad two, etc.> up 1, dwn 2, etc.> dwn 1, up 2, etc.> or any other way you want.

The basic exercises are posted on the Technical Exercises page at my website, in the file called Triads.pdf, but they all start on a triad withroot C and no fingerings are suggested. Just click on that link.

http://members.tripod.com/joey_goldstein/TechEx/techex.htm

--Joey GoldsteinGuitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/TeacherHome Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.comEmail:

NazodesuPost replyMore message actions5/1/02

Other recipients:In article , Joey Goldstein wrote:

> > > I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic> > > triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility> > > with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the> > > key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized> > > approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.> >

> > Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"> > diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions,>> I hope you're trying them across the fretboard too and not just as> position exercises. The thing about triads is that unlike 7th chords> they can all be played as three note close voicings and can always be> visualized on 3 consecutive strings. This makes them very much easier to> "see" across the fretboard, conceptually speaking, than they are in> position. Plus the consistent string groupings makes