1 SUPERIOR COURT OF CALI FORNIA 2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO 3 - - -oOo - - - 4 In re the Matter of: 5 APRIL BERGER, 6 Petit ioner, 7 vs 8 ROBERT SAUNDERS , 9 Respondent . ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) 10 ) CASE NO. 06FL04415 DEPARTMEN T 12 1 0 \ f ? . : . \ '\ l ! 5 � ll � i \ .. ::Y U 11 REPORTER' S TRANSCRIP T OF PROCEEDINGS 12 BEFORE THE HONORABLE THOMAS M. CECIL, JUDGE THEREOF. 1 3 MAY 8, 2009 14 - - -o o o - - - 15 16 17 For the Petit ioner: APPEARANCES 18 LAW OF FICE OF RICHARD J . SOKOL 7801 Folsom Bou levard. , #106 19 Sacramento, California 95826 BY: Richard J. Sokol 20 21 For the Respondent: 22 ROBERT SAUNDERS , In Propria Persona 23 24 25 26 27 28 Reported By: - - -oOo--- ANGELA L . WESTON, CSR No . 11658 SACRAMENTO OFFICI AL COURT REPORTERS
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Richard Sokol, Sokol & Bristow LLP, divorce attorney Sacramento lawyer complete transcript of court hearing where Sokol client gave false testimony attempting to get a domestic violence
Richard Sokol, Sokol & Bristow LLP, divorce attorney Sacramento lawyer complete transcript of court hearing where Sokol client gave false testimony attempting to get a domestic violence restraining order. Sokol's client made false claims in court filings and in court testimony. As an officer of the court, Sokol had a duty to ensure his client did not make false claims in court filings or testify falsely. Judge Thomas Cecil denied Sokol's request for a domestic violence restraining order. "I don't believe [Sokol client] Dr. Berger's testimony, quite frankly. There are many things about her testimony that I find difficult to accept." Judge Cecil said. "I don't believe her version of what happened." J. Richard Sokol is a partner at the family law and divorce firm Sokol & Bristow LLP and a sworn temporary judge in Sacramento County Superior Court. According to Sokol's website: While studying for the priesthood, he taught in two high schools as a priest, and served as Chaplain of Spanish speaking people in Napa and Lake Counties. While he was attending McGeorge School of Law, he served as a Senate Fellow with the Californian State Senate, and as a Deputy Sheriff with Stanislaus County, and was the first paid legal assistant with the United States Attorney in Sacramento. Mr. Sokol was Deputy District Attorney in Sacramento from 1977 to 1993, and ran one of their Divisions and gained practical experience in Family Law as an attorney for the Department of Child Support Services. After his time there ended in 1993, Mr. Sokol opened his private practice in Family Law. He has represented clients in Family Law issues thus far in 20 of the counties of California. He has served as President of the Sacramento County Mental Health Association, and of the California State Mental Health Association, and as President of the Board of Directors of the Legal Center for Elderly and Disabled, and been a member of the Council of the Sacramento County Bar Association. Mr. Sokol has appeared on stage as the lead in a musical, raised a family and faithfully represented many hundreds of clients in all of the aspects of Family Law, which he continues to do as of this date. Mr. Sokol's preferred approach in Family Law is to resolve cases by way of agreements where possible and without unduly increasing costs to the clients but with appropriate results. For more on the systemic and institutionalized corruption in Sacramento Family Court: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com/p/temporary-judges.html Judicial Misconduct: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com/search/label/JUDICIAL%20MISCONDUCT Misconduct Targeting Indigent, Unrepresented Litigants: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com/search/label/COLOR%20OF%20LAW%20SERIES Court Employee Misconduct: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com/search/label/EMPLOYEE%20MISCONDUCT Temporary Judge Misconduct: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com/search/label/JUDGE%20PRO%20TEM Sacramento Family Court News Home Page: http://sacramentocountyfamilycourtnews.blogspot.com J. Richard Sokol is a sworn temporary judge of Sacramento County Superior Court.
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1 S UPERIOR COURT O F CALI FORN IA
2 I N AND FOR THE COUNTY O F SACRAMENTO
3 - - -oOo- - -
4 I n r e the Mat t e r o f :
5 APRIL BERGER ,
6 P e t i t ione r ,
7 vs
8 ROBERT SAUNDERS ,
9 Respondent .
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) ) )
1 0 ____________________________ )
CAS E NO . 0 6 FL0 4 4 1 5
DEPARTMENT 1 2 1
0\ f? .:.\'\ l ! 21 �ll
�i \.:.:... .. ::Y U )J
1 1 RE PORTER ' S TRANSCRI PT OF PROCEE D I NGS
1 2 BE FORE THE HONORABLE THOMAS M . CEC I L , JU DGE THEREOF .
1 3 MAY 8 , 2 0 0 9
1 4 - - - ooo- - -
1 5
1 6
1 7 For the Pet i t ione r :
AP PEARANCES
1 8 LAW OFFICE OF RICHARD J . SOKOL 7 8 0 1 Fo l s om Boul evard . , # 1 0 6
1 9 Sacrament o , C a l i forn i a 9 5 8 2 6 B Y : Rich a rd J . S o ko l
2 0
2 1 For the Respondent :
2 2 ROBERT SAUN DERS , I n P ropr i a P e r sona
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2 8 Reported By :
---oOo- - -
ANGELA L . WESTON , CSR No . 11658
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS----------�
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CHRONOLOGI CAL I NDEX
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W I TN E S S E S CALLED BY THE PET I T I ONER :
VAN BEVEREN , ELA INE:
D i r e ct e xami na t i on by Mr . S o ko l C ro s s - exami na t i on b y t h e Respondent Redi r e ct e xamination by M r . S o ko l
BERGE R , APR I L :
D i rect exami na t i on b y M r . S o ko l C ro s s - examinat i on by t h e Respondent Redi rect examinat i on by M r . S o ko l Recr o s s -examinat i on b y t he Respondent
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SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS----------�
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SACRAMENTO , CALI FORN I A
Apri l 8 , 2 0 0 9 , MORN I NG S E S S I ON
- - - ooo - - -
Proceedings i n t h e M a t t e r o f BERGER v . SAUNDERS ,
5 Case No . 0 6 FL 0 4 4 1 5 , came on regu l a r l y t h i s day before the
6 Honorable THOMAS M . CEC I L , Judge o f the Supe r i o r Court o f
7 Ca l i forni a , f o r t he County o f S a crament o , Department 1 2 1
8 thereof .
9 The Pet i t i oner , APRIL BERGER , was repr e s ented by
1 0 RI CHARD SOKOL , Att orney a t Law .
1 1 The Respondent , ROBERT SAUNDERS , wa s rep r e s ented
1 2 by h ims e l f , I n P r op r i a Per s ona .
1 3 The f o l l owing proceedings were then had, t o wit :
1 4 - - - ooo - - -
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THE COURT : Al l r i ght , t h i s i s case numb e r
0 6 FL 0 4 4 1 5. Ap r i l Berger i s pre s ent with coun s e l , Mr . S o ko l ,
and Robert S aunde r s i s here a s we l l . Let me j us t go through
a coup l e o f ba s i c s here ; back on October 1 o f ' 0 8 I s i gned a
1 9 t emporary r e s t ra ining o rder b a s ed upon the de c l a rat i on s that
2 0 were s ubmi t t ed with t he app l i ca t i on and the app l icat i on
2 1 i t s e l f , and cont r a r y to leaving i t i n t h i s Depa r tment , I
2 2 cont i nued t h e matt e r for i t s f i r s t not i ced hear ing t o
2 3 October 1 5t h , 2 0 0 8 i n Department 1 2 3 , and I undoubtedly did
2 4 that due t o the fact t hat t h i s case wa s moving f o rwa rd in
2 5 1 2 3 w i t h Judge B a l onon and had active l i t igat ion going . I t
2 6 appe a r s that s ince t hat t ime Judge Burge r - P l avan cont i nued
2 7 the r e s t r a ining o rder i n p l a ce unt i l November 1 7 th ; Judge
2 8 Burge r - P l avan cont i nued i t i n p l a ce on November 1 7 th unt i l
SACRAMENTO OFFI C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------- 1
1 January 1 2 t h o f t h i s yea r ; on Janua r y 1 2 t h it was cont inued
2 in p l ace unt i l March 9 t h b y Judge U l lman ; and on March 9 t h
3 i t was s e t f o r t r i a l today b y Judge Gary .
4 So I have the o r i ginal app l i ca t i on f o r the r e s t raining
5 orde r ; I have a s upplemental dec l a r a t i on fi led on
6 October 1 4 t h o f ' 0 8 by M r . S o ko l on beha l f o f h i s c l i en t ;
7 and I have an answer that wa s f i l ed by Mr . S aunde r s on
8 October 1 4 th o f ' 0 8 . Mr . Saunde r s , do you have the
9 supp l ementa l dec l a ra t i on t ha t was f i l e d by Mr . S o ko l ?
1 0 THE RES PONDENT : Not with me .
1 1 THE COURT : But you got i t ?
1 2 THE RES PONDENT : I b e l i eve s o .
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THE COURT : And , Mr . S o ko l , you rece ived a copy o f
t h e a n s w e r that was f i led on October 1 5t h ?
MR . SOKOL : Y e s .
THE COURT : My unde r s t anding i s that there i s a
1 7 crimi n a l cha rge pending ; Mr . S aunde r s , i s that correct ?
1 8 THE RES PONDENT : M i s demeanor , um-hmm .
1 9 THE COURT : Cr ime . Don ' t care whether i t ' s a
2 0 felon y o r mi s demeanor , i t ' s s t i l l a c r ime . And
2 1 notwi t h s t anding that charge pending , you w i s h t o go forward
2 2 toda y ; i s t hat co rrect ?
2 3 THE RES PONDENT : Abs o l ut e l y .
2 4 THE COURT : Okay .
2 5 THE RES PONDENT : The j udge had no aut h o r i t y t o do
2 6 what he d i d , Your Honor .
2 7 THE COURT : We l l , whateve r , not t h e i s s ue . The
2 8 i s sue lS you have a c r iminal charge pending . The i s sue i s
SACRAMENTO OFF I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ----------2
·-... __ _
1 that perhaps t he event s which surround t hat part i cu l a r
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crimina l cha rge may have s ome impact on thi s particular
hearing , this part i cu l a r orde r . The i s s ue that I ' m r a i s ing
i s your r ight not t o incrimi n a t e your s e l f , and I ' m h e reby
5 advi s ing you that i f in fact t e s t imony i s e l i ci t ed and you
6 t e st i fy w i t h regard t o t he event s t hat occurred on that
7 part icular dat e , those particular a spect s o f your t e s t imony
8 may come back t o haunt you in your criminal t r i a l , i f you
9 have one . S o I ' m advi s ing you o f your con s t i t ut i ona l r ight
1 0 t o rema i n s i lent a s t o those event s . That may h amper your
1 1 abi l i t y t o de fend yours e l f aga i n s t thi s part i cu l a r dome s t i c
1 2 vi o l ence r e s t r a i n ing order . Notw i t h s tanding a l l o f that ,
1 3 you w i s h t o go f o rward?
1 4 THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , Your Honor .
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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , f rom your s i de a s the
moving part y , what witne s s e s do you have ?
MR . SOKOL : I have my c l ient , Apr i l Berge r , and
the chi ldren ' s a t t o rne y , who wa s pre sent for s ome o f thi s ,
who i s pres ent in Court .
THE COURT: And , Mr . Saunde r s , your witne s s e s are
2 1 whom?
2 2 THE RES PONDENT : Rut h S aunde r s , Fa i t h Saunde r s ,
2 3 St even Saunde r s , Danny Ave l a r o r Jo s e Dan i e l Ave l a r .
2 4 THE COURT : And your s el f .
2 5 THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .
2 6 MR . SOKOL : Move to have a l l witne s s e s excluded .
2 7 THE COURT : Al l witne s s e s that are pre sent in the
28 court room a r e excluded t o the hal lway . As you are needed
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1 you w i l l be ca l l ed in b y the ba i l i f f .
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(Wh er eupon a l l potent i a l witne s s e s exited the courtroom . )
THE COURT : I ' m j us t curious , a l l the peop l e that
5 you name d , Mr . S aunde r s .
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THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .
THE COURT : The i r purp o s e i n t e s t i fying i s what ?
THE RES PONDENT : Evidence .
THE COURT : Got t o do bett e r than that o r they
10 won ' t be te s t i f ying .
1 1 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , we l l , in s ome c a s e s they
12 were actua l l y on the s cene o f s ome s ituations .
1 3 THE COURT : Wel l , l e t me be c l e a r , Mr . S o ko l i s
1 4 go ing t o be l imit ed t o the even t s and the incident s that are
1 5 l i sted i n h i s app l i ca t i on .
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THE RES PONDENT : Correct .
THE COURT : As oppo sed t o s ome vague s e r i e s o f
18 things that I don ' t know about that a ren't in t h i s document .
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THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
THE COURT : Or event s t hat t o o k p lace a ft e r t he
2 1 restraining o rder was s e rved on you , whi ch o f cou r s e can ' t
2 2 be i n the app l i ca t i on .
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THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
THE COURT : S o unl e s s t h o s e f o l ks h ave s omething
2 5 to do w i t h the incident s that are in t h i s report , I ' m not
2 6 go ing t o be hea r ing evidence about them, which will ma ke
2 7 the i r t e s t imony s omewhat unnece s s ary . But we ' l l get there
28 when we get there .
SACRAMENTO OFFI C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------- 4
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THE RES PONDENT : They are pertinent t o the
r e s t r a ining o rder and facts and actual s ituation s .
THE COURT : We l l , you can s a y t ha t a l l you want -
THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
THE COURT : - - but you s t i l l have t o convince me
when i t come s t ime to ca l l t hem .
THE RES PONDENT : O f cou r s e .
THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l .
MR . S OKOL : Ye s , Your Honor . I would l i ke t o
ma ke -- a s k f o r s ome j ud i c i a l not ice o f certain thing s , i f I
coul d .
THE COURT : And they a r e ?
MR . SOKOL : Fi r s t o f a l l , the court orde r i s s ued
by Judge Bal onon on 9 - 2 4 o f ' 0 8 for Mr . S aunde r s t o have a
comp l ete p s ychol ogi c a l eva lua t i on . S econd o f a l l , t h e
mot i on f i l e d by Mr . S aunder s on 4 - 2 2 for a h e a r i ng on
5 - 1 8 - 0 9 in whi ch he refuses to undergo p s ycho l ogi c a l
eva l uat i on b e c a u s e i t i s a p s eudo s c i ence , de s p i t e seve r a l
orde r s . T h i rd , t he court order i s sued b y Judge B a l onon on
9 - 2 4 - 0 8 t hat M r . Saunde r s have l eve l -three s upe rvi sed v i s i t s
o n l y w i t h the two chi ldren , two t ime s a wee k , f o u r hou r s a t
a t ime . And l a s t l y , t h e findings a n d o rders o f Judge Gary
i s s ued on 3 - 9 - 0 9 that Mr . Saunde r s was in direct contempt ,
that he i s unstable at present , that further vi s i t s w i t h the
chi ldren woul d be det r imenta l t o them, t hat h e refused the
court o rder t o l eave the court , t ha t h e a s s au l t e d the
ba i l i f f i n open court and wa s a r re s t ed and s ent to j a i l .
THE RES PONDENT : Obj ect ion , Your Hono r . Much o f
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------- 5
·,....._..,·
1 Mr . - - what Mr . Sokol s a i d i s facts not in evidence , and
2 s ome o f what c ame out o f that f i rs t dat e , S ept ember 2 4 t h ,
3 2 0 0 8 , c ame f rom a previous incident in the o f f i c e o f -- Law
4 O f f i c e o f E l a ine Van Beveren , who phys i ca l l y a s s au l t ed one
5 o f my daught e r s and mys e l f , and attempted t o a s sault my
6 other daughte r , and t he next day we went to Court and s he
7 she l ied . And Judge B a l onon , without loo king at any
8 evidence , and violat ing Canon 3 0 ( 2 ) , went ahead and j us t
9 b e l i eved what she s a i d , rather t han ca l l for an
10 inve s t i ga t i on or look into t he mat t e r any furthe r .
1 1 THE COURT : The reque s t for j udici a l not i ce i s
1 2 t a ken unde r s ubmi s s ion unt i l I can det ermine whether it ' s
1 3 relevant . The obj ect ion s are noted , mos t o f which a r e not
1 4 proper obj ect ions t o a reque s t for j ud i c i a l not i ce . I know
1 5 that they a r e not i n evidence , that i s why he i s a s king for
1 6 j udi c i a l not i c e o f court document s .
1 7 Mr . S o ko l , who i s your f i r s t witne s s ?
1 8 MR . SOKOL : E laine Van Beveren , t he ch i l dren ' s
1 9 attorne y .
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THE
THE
THE
THE
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COURT :
WITNESS :
COURT :
W I TNES S :
CLERK :
We l come .
I ' ve never been up here , Your Honor .
I t ' s about t ime .
Right .
Would you p l e a s e rai s e your r i ght
2 5 hand . Do you s o l emnl y state t hat t he t e s t imony you are
2 6 about t o g i ve in the cause now pending be fore t h i s Court
2 7 sha l l b e the t ruth , the who l e t ruth , and nothing but the
2 8 t rut h ?
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------- 6
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record .
THE W I TNESS : I do .
THE CLERK : P l e a s e state your ful l name for t he
THE W I TNESS : E la ine Van Beveren .
THE COURT : Mr . Sokol , your witne s s .
ELAINE VAN BEVEREN ,
cal led a s a witne s s on behal f o f the Pet i t i one r , a f t e r f i r s t
being dul y sworn , t e s t i f ied a s f o l l ow s :
D I RECT EXAMINAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :
Q . Ms . Van Beveren , are you an attorney l i ce n s ed t o
pract ice l aw i n t he State o f Ca l i forni a ?
A . Ye s , I am .
Q . Were you appointed a s the attorney for the two chi l dren
in the matt e r be fore the Court r i ght now ?
A . Ye s , I was .
Q . And were you p re s ent w i t h the chi l dren on
Sept embe r 2 3 r d , ' 0 8 , the evening before the 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 hearing
concerning the r e s t raining order against Mr . Saunder s ?
A . Ye s , I was .
Q . Did anything occur at t hat meet ing with the c h i l dren ?
A . Y e s . Dur ing that meeting I was meet ing w i t h the t wo
chi l dren and t he father in order t o d i s c u s s s ome o f t h e i r
preferences a s regard t o t he i r s chedu l e and ext ra cur r i cu l a r
activit ie s , a n d f a t h e r became very agitated, I t h i n k with
some o f my que s t ion s about - - about the act ivi t i e s the
children want ed t o parti cipate in and my sugge s t ion that
perhaps he could share in those activit i e s , and he s t ood up
at the confe rence table in my o f f i ce and started pounding
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ----------- 7
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the table , ye l l ing that mother i s a l i a r . Th i s was i n f ront
of the two chi ldren . They were loo king a t me w i th huge eye s
3 and very anxious about - - ne i t h e r o f them moved and they
4 were c l e a r l y gett ing ups e t j us t b y t he - - j us t b y the t one
5 in the room .
6 And I l eaned out the door to my conference room and a s ked my
7 s t a f f t o ca l l mother to come and p i c k the g i r l s up . I don ' t
8 know whether o r not M r . Saunde r s could hear me , he w a s
9 seated on the oppo s i t e s ide o f the conference t a b l e . And he
1 0 started moving around on the other s ide o f the conference
1 1 t able , both g i r l s were moving a round on the other s i de o f
1 2 the conf e rence table . One was seated next t o him, the other
1 3 was s tanding a t a d i f f e rent s ide o f the tabl e . And h e
1 4 started t o l eave the conference room, and I was at t h e
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doorway o f the conference room going out t o my recept i on
a rea , and he s hoved me back against the doo rj amb . I reached
out t o try to hold onto one of t he g i r l ' s a rms , and he
1 8 turned a round and came a t me again and s hoved me aga i n , and
1 9 my s t a f f a t t empted to intervene . She came runn i ng around
2 0 from he r de s k t o t r y to a s s i s t , and he s hoved h e r awa y . And
21 I f i na l l y j us t let h im go w i t h the g i r l s because I could see
2 2 that they were be coming ext r eme l y ups e t . I w a s a fr a i d for
2 3 h im t o drive w i t h t he g i r l s because o f how agitated he wa s ,
24 and I was re a l l y concerned about him driving away with them
2 5 i n the ca r .
2 6 I did f o l low t hem out t o the ca r , and I l eaned i n the
2 7 p a s s enger s i de o f t he car and t o ld t he g i r l s i t was f ine ,
2 8 eve rything was f ine , and that they wou l d be o ka y , and a s ked
SACRAMENTO OFFIC IAL COURT RE PORTERS ---------- 8
1 i f the y were all r ight going with the i r dad , and the y s a i d
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they were . And I s a i d o ka y , and , you know , eve r ythi n g i s
o kay , you know , everyone will b e fine , and I l e t them go .
My sta f f had called 9 1 1 . The pol i ce came - - I b e l i eve it
5 wa s a s he r i f f ' s o f f i ce r , I ' m not sure wh i ch a gency a r rived
6 r i ght a fter M r . S aunde r s had le ft, and reported to them what
7 had h appened . He a s ked i f I wanted to f ile any charges and
8 I s a i d no , that I think he wa s j u st trying to move me out of
9 the way . I don ' t thi n k he would have attac ked me
1 0 nece s s a r ily but for h i s des i r e to get out o f my o f f i ce , take
1 1 the g i r l s with h im and move me out o f the way . Becau s e I
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wa s a s I ' m sure he perceived , in the way , and I wa s
trying to keep - - I was trying to hold onto one o f the g i r l s
s o he couldn ' t ta ke them . S o I did - -
Q . Did you a s k h im not to ta ke the children?
A . I don ' t recall i f I s a i d don ' t ta ke the children . I t
1 7 wa s e xtreme l y - - it w a s e xtremely e xplo s ive at that time . I
1 8 was fearfu l for them and I - - I was j u st try i ng to r each out
1 9 and h o l d on . One o f the g i rls wa s already too far p a s sed
2 0 me , and that ' s - - I didn ' t want to get i nto a phys i c a l mat ch
2 1 o f pulling on the s e g i rls , s o I let - - s o I didn ' t try to
2 2 deta i n them o r hang onto them, and he l e ft with them . I
2 3 don ' t reca l l i f I tol d h im that I didn ' t want him to ta ke
2 4 the g i rl s .
2 5
2 6
Q .
A .
Did you ca l l Dr . Berger?
I c a lled a fter the fact . My sta f f called . I niti a l l y
2 7 w e wanted t o l et h e r know what h a d happened because I wanted
28 to be s ure , number one , that the girl s got b a c k to he r
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1 s a fe l y . They were due t o be r eturned t o her that evening ,
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and s o I wanted t o ma ke sure that i n fact t he g i r l s did get
exchanged l a t e r that evening , and they did get exchanged
later that evening . And I a l so wanted h e r t o know what had
occurred because I a s s umed the g i r l s wou ld be upset .
Q . And t h i s wa s on t he evening before the hea r ing on 9 - 2 4
of ' 0 8 ?
A . Correct .
Q . Were you pre s ent in court at the hearing on 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 ?
A .
Q .
Ye s , I wa s .
Wa s M r . S aunde r s pre s ent a t that he aring?
A . Ye s , he w a s .
Q . F i r s t o f a l l , a t the evening before did M r . S aunde r s
appear t o you t o b e out o f cont ro l ?
A . Abs o l ut el y .
THE RES PONDENT : Obj ect i on , Your Honor .
THE COURT : Why ?
THE RES PONDENT : E s sent i a l l y t hat woul d be s omeone
1 9 ma king a j udgment . What de f i n e s out o f cont r o l ? M s . Van
2 0 Beve r e n
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THE COURT : That i s fine .
THE RES PONDENT : and M r . S o kol - -
T H E COURT : S u s t a ined . You want to reph r a s e the
2 4 que s t i o n , Mr . S o ko l ?
2 5 MR . SOKOL :
2 6 Q . You did answer ye s , could you t e l l u s what you mean by
2 7 that ?
2 8 A . H e was shouting and hitting the tab l e with his f i s t .
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He was s hout ing very l oudl y , she i s a l i a r , your mot h e r i s a
l i a r . He was s a ying i t i n a l oud enough vo i c e that I wa s
becoming f r i ght ened for the g i r l s . I was not yet anxi ous
for mys e l f . I t didn ' t occur t o me that he woul d s hove me .
When he pus hed me into the door j amb I wa s surp r i sed at how
6 very s t rong he i s . He h a s a great deal o f s t rength i n h i s
7 a rms , and I w a s s tunned and very surpr i s ed at how
8 thre a t en i ng that s i tuat ion got s o qui c k l y . I w a s - - we were
9 t a l king p e a c e ful l y , and then suddenly he s t ood up and was
10 appearing t o b e very unable t o cont rol h i s ange r .
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Q . At the hearing the next day when you were present and
Mr . S aunde r s was pre s ent , did the j udge t ha t day ent e r
r e s t r a i n i ng orde r s against h im in your p r e s ence ?
A . I do not - -
Q . Did he o rde r
A . I do not recal l .
1 7 Q . Let me reph r a s e i t .
18 A . Okay .
19 Q . Did h e ente r o rder s concerning the chi ldren ?
20 A . Y e s , he did . I had - - I had reque s t ed i n t he cour t room
2 1 at that t ime t h a t t he o rders I had been going t o reque s t be
2 2 modi f ie d such that there be s ome orders i n p l a ce regarding
2 3 supervi s e d v i s i t s , which I had not been int ending t o
24 reque s t . I ' m - - I need t o s a y for t he Court I am because
25 I ' m not a l l owed o r requi red t o t e s t i fy a s t o my r o l e a s
2 6 mino r s ' coun s e l , I ' m uncomfortable w i t h going beyond t h e
2 7 bounda r i e s o f what I should be t e s t i fying t o , other t han the
28 inci dents that I witn e s s e d that would r e l ate to t h i s
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restra ining orde r . I --
Q . We l l , l e t me rephra s e t hat t hen . Were you pres ent when
the j udge o rdered that t here be no contact between
Mr . S aunde r s and the chi ldren , other than superv i s ed
cont a ct ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Were you made aware that immedia t e l y a f t e r the hearing
he went t o t h e s chool and t r i ed t o cont act the chi ldren ?
A . Ye s , I wa s t o l d t ha t , and I a l s o - - my s t a f f con f i rme d
that with the s choo l .
Q . Okay . We re you p re s ent i n t he court on 3 -9- 09 when
Mr . S aunde r s was invo lved i n an a l t e rcat i on i n court ?
A . Ye s , I wa s .
Q . How was h e behaving a s you obs e rved him?
A . Very s imi l a r l y t o t he way he behaved in my o f f i c e on
Septembe r 2 3 rd . I t w a s that s ame e s c a l at i on o f volume o f
h i s voice , a n d h i s a n g e r a n d a g i t at ion seemed t o b e j us t
increas ing very qui c k l y , whi ch i s what I witne s s ed i n my
o f f i c e in S ept ember , and I wa s at t hat point not s urpri s ed
at what occurred because e s s ent ia l ly that s ame behavior had
occurred directed a t me .
Q . Wa s he found i n di rect cont empt b y the j udge ?
A . Ye s , he was .
Q . Did he follow the j udge ' s order s at that t ime t o l eave ?
A . No , not at a l l .
Q . Did he a s sault the bai l i ff - -
A . Ye s , he did .
Q . -- that was attempting to handcuff him? Was he
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a r r e s t e d ?
A . Ye s , he was .
Q . Do you be l i eve t hat he s hould undergo a comp l e t e
psychol o g i c a l examinat i on b e f o r e he i s a l l owed anyt hi ng
othe r than s upervi sed - - any contact with the chi ldren?
are w e ?
T H E COURT : That i s r ea l l y not why we are here ,
THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Hono r , I was
about t o state that .
MR . SOKOL : That i s fine .
THE RES PONDENT : Appreciate that .
THE COURT : Anyt h ing e l s e , Mr . S o ko l ?
MR . SOKOL : Nothing , Your Honor .
THE COURT : M r . S aunde r s , do you have any
que s t ions of M s . Van Beveren?
THE RES PONDENT : I do a s k that h e r ent i re
t e s t imony be thrown out , she h a s comp l e t e l y p e rjured he r s e l f
and my witne s s e s wi l l share s ome o f what s h e s a i d .
four witne s s e s i n t he courtroom - -
I have
THE COURT : I ' m sorry , you are g iving a spe ech .
Do you have any que s t i on s ?
THE RES PONDENT : Y e s , i n fact I do .
CRO S S -EXAM I NAT I ON BY MR . SAUNDERS :
Q . Ms . Van Beveren , do you reca l l that when we were having
a conve r s a t ion at the table that I men t i oned the fact about
the import ance o f the g i r l s ' r e l i g i ou s educat ion and
upbringing and the fact t hat it was being given short
shrift?
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MR . SOKOL : Can we have a t ime l i ne ?
THE COURT : I bel ieve we are t a l king about
S eptemb e r 2 3 rd .
THE RES PONDENT : Ye s , t han k you , I ' m s or r y .
Q . S ept ember 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8 i n the meet ing i n your o f f i ce .
And I r e ca l l that you didn ' t l i ke my l ine o f que s t i oning and
you a t t empted to end the mee t i n g within t he f i r s t f ive
minut e s .
MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on , there i s no que s t i on .
THE RES PONDENT : I ' m get t ing to the que s t ion .
Q . And I was t he one that went ahead and s a i d I don ' t
t h i n k that there needs t o be any - - you know , we may not
agree on everything , but t ha t doe s n ' t mean that we c an ' t
cont i nue on i n our mee t i ng ; do you reca l l me s aying that ?
A . Not those exact words , but I reca l l the gen e r a l drift
o f that . I t w a s not exact l y a s you ' ve j ust s t at ed .
Q . Okay . Do you reca l l me s a ying , when you s a i d about the
g i r l s - - about the g i r l s p l aying soccer and that you s a i d to
me that you ' d l i ke to see me attend that , and I s a i d I would
be g l ad to do that i f o n l y t he i r mother would t e l l me where
they are p l aying soccer because I have no knowl edge a t a l l
about t ha t ?
A . I r e ca l l you saying that you would be happy t o attend
s ome of t he i r soccer game s .
Q . Um-hmm . And do you reca l l me a l s o stat ing that you
neve r got back to my forme r attorne y , T om Pena , and mys e l f
rega rding a n agreement - - wel l , ba s i ca l l y a p ropo s a l you
made at a Jul y 5 t h , 20 0 - - - I c an ' t reca l l the exact dat e ,
SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 4
1 but Jul y 2 0 0 8 confe rence , five -way conference , w ith
2 Mr . S o ko l , Apr i l Berge r , T om Pena , you and mys e l f , where you
3 o f fered an opp or t un ity for me t o switch my -- at t ha t t ime I
4 had Monday and - - excuse me , Tuesda y and Wedne sday
5 supe rvi sed vi s its w i t h my chi ldren , and you o f f e red f o r me
6 to switch my Tue s days t o Mondays t o accommodat e the g i r l s
7 attending Hebrew s chool , which t he y were s i gned up for and
8 had attended for many yea r s , and that in o rder - - and i f s o ,
9 then they could p l a y soccer on Tue s days or do s ometh ing e l s e
1 0 on Tuesda y to accommodate that , and you wou l d never - - and
1 1 the que s t ion I have i s do you recal l never getting b a c k to
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Mr . Pena and mys e l f regarding t ha t propo s a l ?
A . No , I a lways g ot back to Mr . Pena . And t hat i sn ' t the
way the conver s ation went .
Q . Um-hmm .
A . Onl y p a rtia l l y .
Q . Okay .
A . You made a lot o f statemen t s i n that one s entence .
Q . O ka y . We l l , Mr . Pena - - by t he way , Mr . Pena to l d me
that he never rece ived - -
MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on , h e a r s a y .
THE COURT : S u s t a ined .
2 3 THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
2 4 THE COURT : Do you have a que s t i o n ?
2 5 THE RES PONDENT :
2 6 Q. Let ' s s e e , e s sent ia l l y s o do you reca l l what you s a i d
2 7 t o me when I mentioned t o you that I wa s mo re t han
2 8 w i l l ing - - which I had s a i d a l s o in Ju l y at the Jul y 5th
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meet i ng - - that I was more than w i l l ing , and I r e i t e rated
that point i n our meet ing on Septembe r 2 3 rd i n your o f f i ce ,
I woul d be mor e t han w i l l ing t o , again , swi t ch my Tue sdays
t o Monday s so the g i r l s could go t o Hebrew s chool becau s e
t h e y had expre s s e d a de s i re t o d o i t a n d they had always
l oved going and t he y had f r i ends and they had not s e en t he i r
f r i ends f o r a wh i le ; do you reca l l me s t a t i ng that ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Do you reca l l at s ome po int during our conve r s a t i on
wher e we ba s i c a l l y had a verbal d i s agreement and - - do you
reca l l that ?
1 2 A . On which occa s i o n ? I don ' t know what you are r e f e r r ing
1 3 t o .
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Q . We l l , de f in i ng s ever a l d i f f e rent t h i ng s , seve r a l
di f fe rent p o i n t s you r a i sed .
s i de - -
I mean , wa s o n t h e opp o s i t e
T H E COURT : I ' m s o r ry , l et ' s back up . I be l i eve
Ms. Van Beve ren wanted you to c l a r i f y are you s t i l l t a l king
about S eptembe r 2 3 rd .
THE RES PONDENT : Ye s . I ' l l de f i n i t e l y l e t you
know f o r sure when my l ine o f que s t i oning get s to s omething
e l se . Thank you for c l a r i fying t ha t , Your Honor .
Q . Do you r e ca l l that we had s everal d i s a greemen t s about
2 4 s ome o f t he i s sue s that came up ? I mean , we we r e p r e t t y
2 5 much on oppo s it e ends ; do you r e ca l l t ha t ?
2 6 A . Actua l l y I t hought we were do ing ve ry we l l . Aft e r the
2 7 init i a l object i on that I made a t the very beginning , which
2 8 you re f erenced - - kind o f lumped with s ome oth e r things that
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 6
1 I don ' t agree with , I thought we were actua l l y doing qui te
2
3
we l l at di s cus s ing those i s sue s .
Q . And do you reca l l a t whi ch point , o r what s tatement
4 perhaps w a s made , that our di sagreement got t o what you ca l l
5 more he a t - - - the event s gett i ng mor e he ated?
6 MR . SOKOL : I ' m not s ure I unde r s t and the
7 ques t i on , Your Hono r .
8 THE RES PONDENT : I n othe r words , she s a i d t hat I
9 got out o f cont r o l , I banged on t he t ab l e , I --
1 0 THE COURT : Are you a s king h e r i n h e r opinion what
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t r iggered your be coming out o f cont ro l ?
THE RES PONDENT: We l l , I wasn ' t out o f cont r o l .
THE COURT : S o why don ' t
THE RES PONDENT : I n other words , she perce ived to
be me changing my pattern o f behavior i n that me et ing .
THE WITNE S S : I reca l l we were t a l king about
1 7 Hebrew s choo l , and you were t e l l ing me how behind the
1 8 chi l dren were , and we - - I a s ked you about the p o s s i b i l i t y
1 9 o f you home scho o l i ng t hem t o s ome ext ent because the days
2 0 were not wor king out because o f the con f l ict w i t h socce r ,
2 1 the soccer t e am they were on , and we were d i s cu s s ing that ,
2 2 and the s ta t emen t s that you s t a rt ed ma king about Ms . Berger
2 3 being a l i a r r e a l l y didn ' t f l ow f rom t he conve r s at i on we
2 4 w e r e having . W e w e r e d i s c u s s ing Hebrew s chool and what
2 5 po s s ib l e opt i o n s there would be . I f they could not change
2 6 days unt i l a t l e a s t a ft e r soccer s e a s on , what other opt i ons
2 7 there were , and you t o o k me comp l e t e l y b y s u rp r i s e b y
2 8 s t anding up and s t a rt ing t o shout that she i s a l i ar , and
SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS --------- 1 7
1 that did not f o l l ow for me w i th the di s cus s ion we were
2
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having . But i t was r eg arding Hebrew s chool and t h e s ch edul e
s o t h e y wouldn ' t g e t any further behind .
4 Q . Do you reca l l that I had s ent you an e -ma i l and a l s o
5 that I wa s - - di s cus sed about having been s t opped by the
6 execut ive di rector o f t he Hebrew re l ig i ous s chool and one o f
7 the teach e r s who stated that the g i r l s were behind and t hat
8 they were having - - and they we re having prob l ems and they
9 loo ked l o s t and they were con fused and they couldn ' t
1 0 pa rt i cipate at t h e s ame leve l a s the other chi l dren who had
1 1 been there eve r y wee k , and i n the f i r s t t hree wee ks o f
1 2 s chool they had a l ready mi s s e d at l e a s t ha l f the i r c l a s s e s ?
1 3 MR . SOKOL : Obj e c t i o n , compound que s t i on .
1 4 THE RES PONDENT : I can s imp l i fy i t .
1 5 THE COURT : Ove rrul e d . You can answer the
1 6 que s t ion .
1 7 THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .
1 8 THE W I TNES S : I don ' t rememb e r eve r y s ingle
1 9 statement that you j ust made , but absolut e l y the gene r a l
2 0 the general conclus ion t hat you are s a ying , ye s , I do reca l l
2 1 you ma king that statement to me i n gener a l , not word f o r
2 2 word .
2 3 THE RES PONDENT :
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2 8
Q . O ka y.
A . And a t that point we a l s o we re t a l king about the fact
that , unfortunate l y , they have one parent who is Jewi sh and
one p arent who i s not and that that doe s create the need fo r
s ome compromi s e , whi ch i s di f f i cult .
SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 1 8
1 Q . Do you reca l l that t he o f fer that you made at the
2 five -way mee t i ng in Jul y s up e r s eded Apr i l Berger enr o l l ing
3 the g i r l s in s occer s chool; do you recal l that ?
4 A . No , I don ' t have the power t o ma ke a p ropo s a l o r t o l a y
5 down a s chedu l e that h a s to be f o l l owed. I do reca l l u s
6 d i s cu s s ing your reque st f o r a change i n days and d i s cu s s ing
7 the fact that that should be con s i dered and eve r yone ne eded
8 t o s e e what they could work out . I do reca l l the
9 discu s s i o n , but I don ' t have the powe r t o ma ke agreements
1 0 and ma ke things j us t change . That i s not my r o l e a s mi nors '
1 1 coun s e l .
1 2 Q . We l l , I would l i ke i t j udi c i a l l y noted f o r the r e co rd
1 3 that you did ma ke a p ropos a l , and nothing was de cided . I
1 4 b e l i eve you did state , t hough , that you woul d have t o t a l k
1 5 t o Apr i l and ma ke sure t hat t h i s works out f o r eve r ybody
1 6 unl e s s --
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A . Apr i l was p r e s ent . I ' m s orry .
THE COURT : I t ' s not a proper s ub j ect f o r j udicial
not i ce . I gue s s I ' m a l i t t l e concerned a s t o the impact or
the import o f this l ine o f que s t i oning . I ' m not sure what
t h i s h a s to do with why we a re here . I mea n , a r e you
t e l l i ng me it ' s your p o s i t ion t hat h e r behavior warranted
your behavi o r ?
THE RES PONDENT : No . I don ' t be l i eve that my
2 5 behav i o r wa s out o f contro l , f i r s t o f a l l .
2 6 THE COURT : We l l , why don ' t we get t o that inst ead
2 7 o f a l l the anc i l lary i s sues .
28 THE RESPONDENT: I ' m jus t trying to ma ke s ome
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point s here f i r s t t o ma ke sure i n that way , but I ' l l be glad
to cut t o t he cha s e .
Q . Ms . Van Beveren , do you remember when - - when we were
at the meet ing do you r emember your behavior e xc a l a t ing? Do
you remember your demeanor changing? Do you remember you
ra i s ing your voice a t me ?
A . F i r s t o f a l l , I ' m not sure i f we were b a c k t o the Jul y
me eting o r t h e S ept ember mee t ing .
Q . Excu s e me , l et me c l a r i f y that . Septemb e r 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8
i n your off i ce .
A . I remember becoming f e a r fu l o f what was going t o happen
next .
Q . When we a r e having a me r e d i s cus s i on?
A . Not
Q . How could you be fearful o f a di s cu s s i on ? And we had a
ve rb a l d i s a gr eement - -
A . I wa s n ' t f e a r ful at that t ime .
Q . - - you know .
A . I wa s n ' t fea r ful unt i l you s tarted s hout ing and
pounding the t ab l e .
Q . I have a que s t ion for you , which hand did I use t o
pound t he tabl e ?
A . I have n o i dea .
Q . Rea l l y ? I n t e r e s t ing . And how hard did I pound the -
supp o s e d l y did I pound t he t ab l e ?
A . Loud - - hard enough t ha t t he crayon s , the r o l l -up
crayons t hat were on the t ab l e that the g i r l s had been
co l o r ing with , were jumping a round, and hard enough that
SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------2 0
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1 both g i r l s were s t a ring at me and l oo king very f e a r f u l o f
2 what wa s g o i ng t o happen , and hard enough that I w a s
3 becoming fea r fu l and opened t he doo r t o the con f erence room
4 to t e l l my s t a f f that I needed he r t o ca l l - - the g i r l s were
5 to be returned t o M s . Berger that evening a ft e r our mee t i n g ,
6 and I c a l led - - a s ked my s t a f f t o ca l l he r .
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Q. Let ' s s e e , a s I reco l l e ct what happened w a s tha t -
MR . SOKOL : Obj ect i on , i rr e l evant .
THE RES PONDENT : Okay . I can only a s k que s t i ons ?
THE COURT : For now .
1 1 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y , that i s fine , and t hen when
1 2 I am my own witne s s I can do whatever l a t e r , o ka y . Thank
1 3 you , for c l a r i f i ca t i on regarding tha t , Your Hono r .
1 4 Q . Do you remember me s aying t o the g i r l s - - you s a id at
1 5 some point the meet ing i s ove r , and I s a i d , f ine , o ka y ,
1 6 g i rl s , l et ' s l eave , and you s a i d to me - - do you r e ca l l
1 7 saying t o me I ' m t e l l ing the j udge about you tomor row?
1 8 A . I don ' t r emember , but I mos t l i ke l y woul d have s a i d
1 9 that . Ab s o l ut e l y .
2 0 Q . You mos t l i ke l y would have s a i d that ?
2 1 A . Y e s . I ' m sure I woul d have t o l d you that I ' m going to
2 2 t e l l the j udge .
2 3 Q . Do you r emember tha t I s a i d that I ' m going to t e l l the
2 4 j udge about you ?
2 5 A . Something t o that e f fect , not tho s e words .
2 6 Q . O ka y . And then do you remember me saying t o the g i rls
2 7 a s we got up and I - - do you remember me pushing my cha i r
2 8 ba c k and pushing my - - against the t ab l e to be ab l e t o push
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back s o that I could get up f r om the t ab l e because I wa s a l l
t h e w a y under t h e t ab l e e s sent ia l l y ; d o you r emember me
doing t ha t ?
A . You had a l ready s t ood up and were pounding the t ab l e at
s ome point . I don ' t remembe r exa ct l y when you pushed your
cha i r b a c k .
THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , can I obj ect t o --
when I ' m a s king a l ine of que s t i oning ?
THE W I TNES S : That i s my r e c o l l e ct i o n .
THE COURT : Sur e , and I ' l l i gnore i t .
THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . We l l , o ka y , fine , but I
t ot a l l y obj ect .
THE COURT : There i s not h i ng t o obj ect t o .
THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
THE COURT : You know , people t e s t i f y a l l the t ime .
THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
THE COURT : You don ' t l i ke t h e i r t e s t imony , put on
your t e s t imony when i t ' s your turn .
THE RES PONDENT : No p roblem . Thank you , Your
Hono r .
Q . Let ' s s e e , do you r e ca l l me t e l l i ng my daugh t e r s , o ka y ,
g i r l s , l et ' s go ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Could you t e l l in your own words what happened next
immediat e l y when - - a ft e r I t o l d the g i r l s that we ' re
l e aving , l e t ' s g o , we a r e leaving?
A . I wa l ked t o the ent r yway o f t he conference room t o
where m y s e c r e t a ry wa s s eated at the recept ion t abl e , and
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------2 2
1 you s t a rted t o come a round the conf e rence table with one
2
3
g i r l , I be l i eve , in f ront and one behind you , I ' m not
exact l y s ure where they were p l aced , and a s you approached
4 me , you s hoved me aga i n s t the doo r j amb o f my confe rence room
5 o f fice . There i s a wooden divider between the recep t i on
6 de s k that i s i n the ent r y of my o f f i ce next t o the
7 conference room opening , I wa s shoved part l y against the
8 doorj amb and p a r t l y against that . You wa l ked out , I reached
9 out for one o f the g i r l ' s a rms and did in fact have aho l d o f
1 0 one o f the g i r l ' s a rms a t that point , and you t urned a round
1 1 and pushed me again and s t a r t ed h i t t ing at me with both
1 2 arms , and I do remember that .
1 3 Q . The s uppos e d incident that happened when you were
1 4 bloc king my e x i t from the o f f i c e - - f rom the o f f i ce
1 5 conference room that I s uppo s ed l y pushed you , which hand did
1 6 I use t o supposedly push you?
1 7 A . You used both hands . You were h i t t i ng me with both
1 8 hands , and you u s ed your body a s we l l t o shove me out o f the
1 9 way . When you t u rned a round the s e cond t ime , I wa s more in
2 0 front o f the wooden partit ion wal l than i n the doo r jamb , and
2 1 you pus hed me again , and you then pushed my s ecret a r y a s
2 2 we l l .
2 3 Q . And the cane I u s e a s an a s s i s t ance devi ce , that I
2 4 a lways keep down o n the ground s o I c a n s tand erect , where
2 5 wa s that at the t ime when I was pushing you w i t h both hands ?
2 6 A . I have no i dea .
2 7
2 8
Q .
A .
I woul dn ' t think so .
I was t rying to reach f o r your daugh t e r
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------2 3
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MR . SOKOL : I wonde r i f we can have none of t he s e
s i de comment s by Mr .
THE COURT : We l l
THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .
THE COURT : Mr . S aunde rs s e ems to thin k that h i s
chuc k l i ng a n d h i s smi rking a n d hi s s ide comment s a r e
bene f i c i a l to h i s c a s e .
THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .
THE COURT : Let me a s sure you they a r e not .
THE RES PONDENT : Sor r y , Your Honor .
Q . M s . Van Beveren , when you s a i d t hat I c ame out s ide and
pushed you a s e cond t ime or pushed you out s i de your off ice a
1 3 s e cond t ime , and , a ga i n , a s I u s e my crane a s an a s s i s t ance
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device and I need that to s t and sol i dl y , whe r e was my cane
at the t ime when I s upposedl y wa s pushing you with both
hands ?
A . Fi r s t of a l l , I didn ' t s a y i t was out s ide my o f f i ce , so
I ' m not sure how to respond to that .
Q . O ka y .
A . That i sn ' t what I s a i d . I s a id out s ide the con fe rence
2 1 room .
2 2 Q . So out s ide the conference room . And whe r e wa s I
2 3 facing? Wa s I f a cing to you or against you ?
2 4 A . You were wa l king away f rom me and you t u rned and came
2 5 at me , and I have no idea wher e your cane was .
2 6 Q . Did I s a y anything to you be fore I s uppos edl y c ame at
2 7 you ?
2 8 A . You were spea king , I don ' t reca l l what exa c t l y you
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s a i d .
Q . And where w e re my daugh t e r s at the t ime that I was
speaking a t you ?
A . One of them wa s i n f ront of you going out the door to
the office , the other one i n i t i a l l y wa s between u s .
Q . Do you reca l l tha t - - what I did a ft e r I wa s spea king
at you ? Do you reca l l me turning a round and having my back
to you ?
A. I do , and t a king the g i r l s out with you , and I a l lowed
them to l eave . I didn ' t t ry to stop you .
Q . Do you r e ca l l me having my b a c k turned towa rd you , my
cane on my - - in my l e ft hand , p l anted f i rmly to the g round ,
and you l unged a ft e r my daugh t e r Laura and pushed me
mult ip l e t ime s , and when I b loc ked - - and a s I blocked your
path so t ha t you coul dn ' t get at he r ?
A . There a re s o many que s t i on s , I have no idea how to
answer ye s or no to t ha t .
Q . Ve r y s imp l y , do you rec a l l me having my b a c k turned
towa rd you w i t h my cane f i rml y p l anted on the g round?
A . I don ' t h ave any idea wher e your cane wa s .
Q . Do you reca l l me having my back towards you ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Do you reca l l lunging a ft e r Laura , and me b locking you
from doing that ?
A . Ye s .
Q . Do you r e ca l l whe re Jul i a , my daughter Ju l i a , was at
the t ime ?
A . One of the chi ldren - - and I ' m going to s a y now - - at
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the t ime in S ept ember I knew for sure whi ch was Laura and
whi ch was Jul i a . I ' m going t o s a y r i ght now I ' m he s it ant t o
s a y that o n the chance - - they are twins and the y l o o k a
great dea l a l i ke . They are ident i ca l twin s , I be l i eve .
And I b e l i eve that I reached for Laura - - actua l l y , I ' m not
sure i f I reached for Laura o r Jul i a . One o f the g i r l s was
in f ront o f you furthe r away f rom me , my s e cretary actua l l y
reached f o r that chi l d , I reached f o r the o n e between u s ,
and you turned a round , pushed me awa y , that i s when you
pushed me away the s e cond t ime , and then you t urned and l e ft
with the g i rl s . I s topped t rying t o reach for e i the r chi l d .
I then fo l l owed you out s ide a ft e r you had got ten f a r enough
ahead o f me that you woul dn ' t f e e l that I was t r yi ng to
i nt e r f e re , and I went and t a l ked t o the g i r l s through the
pas senger s i de o f the car . I opened the pa s s enger door and
t a l ked to them i n the back s e at .
Q . Do you re ca l l my daught e r , Laur a , a f t e r my back wa s
turned t o you and you w e re pushing me t o t r y t o get t o he r
when you lunged a ft e r her , do you r e ca l l he r s a y ing , why are
you being so mean , why are you being so mean to my daddy , we
don ' t want you a s our a t to rney anymore ?
A . No , the y did not s a y tha t , n o r did I push you .
Q . O ka y . Then how were you able t o t r y t o get p a s sed me
to get to Laura when you lunged t owards her i f I was
blocking your way ?
A . One o f the g i r l s wa s s t i l l between the two o f u s , I
reached out with my hand and he l d onto her hand and a rm ,
lower a rm , and l e t g o o f he r when you pushed me away .
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Q .
A .
Q .
With my bac k turned toward you ?
No .
Wh ich hand did I u s e behind me ?
A . I ' ve e xp l a ined t h i s . You pushed p a s sed me i n i t i a l l y to
go out of the con ference room door . I reached for one of
the g i r l s , you t u rned to me a s e cond t ime and s hoved me
aga i n s t t he divider between my reception i s t des k , we were
out s i de t he conf erence room door at that point but s t i l l
ins ide my o f f i ce door , and I l e t go o f h e r a rm when you
shoved me the s e cond t ime , and then you l e f t with the g i r l s ,
and your b a c k wa s to me when you l e ft with the g i r l s .
Q . Do you reca l l that i t wa s Jul i a who wa s a t t empt i ng to
come out of the confe rence room because s he had gone back
there becau s e she - - obviou s l y she was a f raid of what was
going on and you pushing h e r fathe r , and that you grabbed
1 6 he r by the a rm a n d you w e r e twi s t ing h e r a rm a s she was
1 7 t rying t o get away f rom you ?
1 8 MR . SOKOL : Compound que s t i on and - -
1 9 THE COURT : Ove r r u l ed . You can answer the
2 0 que s t ion .
2 1 THE W I TNES S : I woul d neve r have twi s t ed e i ther of
2 2 t hos e chi ldren ' s a rms . I did t r y t o hold onto one o f t hem
2 3 so that you coul d not t a ke t hem f rom my o f f i c e . I wa s very
2 4 f r ightened for t h e i r s a f e t y and the y were very f r i ghtened .
2 5 THE RES PONDENT :
2 6 Q . Let ' s s ee , do you reca l l a ft e r I wa s abl e to get the - -
2 7 my daught e r s away f rom you and out your con fe rence room that
28 you ran a fter us as we were heading to t he car and t hen you
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threatened me ? Do you reca l l what you s a i d ?
A . I wa l ked s o s l ow l y and ca lml y f rom my o f f ice out t o
your c a r w i t h t h e int ent o f ma king s u r e t h e g i r l s ' f e a r
woul d decre a s e a n d acting ve r y c a lm a n d t e l l i ng them
ever ything wou ld be f ine and a s ked i f they were o ka y to go
with you . They s a i d ye s , and I s a i d o ka y , you ' l l be f ine ,
I ' l l t a l k t o you late r , and it wa s very very c a lm . I did
not run out of my o f f i c e . I t - - you were wa l king away from
my o f f i ce t owa rd the car , I don ' t even know that you could
have seen what I wa s do ing , but I wa s wa l king very s l owly
and c a lml y .
Q . I f ind i t intere s t ing t hat -�
MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct i on .
THE COURT : Have a que s t ion?
THE RES PON DENT : Okay, o ka y , sure .
Q . I f my daught e r s were runni ng to my car and I wa s
wa l king very f a s t a s fast a s I c o u l d out o f your o f f i ce
and I wa s wa l king very f a s t t o get away f rom the s i t uat i on
and you , how cou l d you catch up t o u s ? I f you were wa l king
c a lml y and t rying t o ma ke sure that eve r ything was c a lm , et
ceter a , e t cetera , how were you abl e to do that , because we
had a b i t o f a l e ad upon you , a nd the daugh t e r - - and my
daught e r s , who p l a y socce r , run very qui c k l y ?
A . Fi r s t o f a l l , your daugh t e r s we ren ' t runni n g , but ,
s e condl y , they were s e a t ed i n t he back seat o f the c a r by
the t ime I got t o t he p a s s enger door and opened it .
Q . Do you reca l l sa ying s omething -- t hreat ening me in
f ront o f my daugh t e r s r i ght n e a r my car before you we got
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to the ca r ?
A . No .
Q . Okay . You don ' t reca l l s a ying that you are going to
lose your v i s i t a t ion with your daughte r s ?
A . No .
Q . Saying that in f ront of them? Okay . Do you r e ca l l
w i l d l y opening the c a r door and s t i c king your head in and
ha l f your body and s aying, g i r l s , do you f e e l s a fe , do you
feel s a fe with your fathe r , do you feel s a fe enough to drive
with your fathe r ? Do you reca l l those words ?
A . Ab solut e l y not , and I didn ' t s t i c k hal f my body i n ,
but , ye s , I opened the p a s senge r door , a s I ' ve a l ready
t e st i f i ed , I l eaned i nto the c a r and a s ked them if they were
okay to drive with you , and they said ye s , and I told t hem
eve rything wou l d be f ine . And I rema ined c a lm and they both
answe red me and I c losed t he door and b a c ked away so you
could drive of f .
Q . My que s t ion actua l l y wa s do you r emember w i l d l y opening
the car door ?
A . No .
MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct ion , i t ' s a con fu s ing que s t ion .
THE COURT : Appa rent l y not , s he answered i t .
THE W ITNE S S : No .
THE RES PONDENT :
Q . Let ' s see , going back a few s e conds -- a coup l e of
minut e s , do you remembe r t e l l ing your s e cretary to c a l l
t h e - - t o c a l l t h e g i r l s ' mot h e r ?
A. Yes .
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28
Q . And then a s we were l eaving do you remember ca l l ing
your - - t e l l in g your s e cretary to cal l 9 1 1 ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Be fore you s t ated t hat you had c a l l e d the - - I pounded
the tabl e , I j umped up , you wal ked out of the -- tow a rds the
out s i de -- heading towa rds the out s ide your confe rence room ,
you told your s e cretary to c a l l t he g i r l s ' mot he r ?
A . Y e s .
Q . Now you j us t s t ated that - - you answered that you
cal led t hem a f t e r . So which i s i t , did you c a l l t hem be fore
we l e ft the confe rence room or a f t e r t he con f e r ence room?
A . I t e s t i f i ed at the beginning that be fore you began to
l eave the con fe rence room I l eaned out my con fe rence room
door and a s ked my secretary to ca l l M s . Berge r . I n a low
voice . I don ' t know i f you even heard me i s what I s a i d .
Q . I heard - -
A . A f t e r you w e r e t rying to l eave m y o f f i ce w i t h t h e gi r l s
i n that a g i t at ed s t at e , she was a s king s hou l d I ca l l the
pol i ce , s hould I ca l l 9 1 1 . S he had a l ready c a l led 9 1 1 , and
I s a i d , ye s , ca l l 9 1 1 . She had a l r eady done it because s he
was t hen f r i ghtened a s wel l .
Q . Do you reca l l my daugh t e r Jul ia s aying anyt h i ng to you
be fore she l e ft your of f i ce ?
A . I don ' t reca l l spec i f i ca l l y what e ither g i r l s a i d at
that point . I was tot a l ly focu sed on you and what I was
doing and what you were doing .
Q . The next day i n Judge Balonon ' s court do you r e ca l l --
do you reca l l t h e s t a t ement t ha t you made a n d you s a i d - -
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS ---------- 3 0
1 you didn ' t deny that you l unged a f t e r my daugh t e r Jul i a
2 excu s e me , l e t me phrase t ha t a s a que s t ion . Do you
3 remember in t he court room the next day not denyi ng when I
4 made s t a t emen t s of what you did and your behavior and
5 your - - your - - you phy s i ca l l y a s sault ing one of my
6 daughters and a t t empt ing to a s s au l t my other daught e r and
7 phys i c a l l y a s s au l t i ng me ? Do you r emember not denying that
8 you your behavior towards my daughte r s ?
9 A . I absol ut e l y denied that charact e r i zat ion of my
1 0 behavior . Absolute l y denied t hat . Didn ' t occur .
1 1
1 2
Q .
A .
Do you remember you s a ying onl y that he pushed me ?
Wha t do you mean by onl y s aying he pushed me ? I did
1 3 s a y you pushed me .
1 4 Q . Ri ght . How many t ime s that day did you - - on September
15 2 4 th did you say t ha t I pus hed you ; do you r e ca l l ?
1 6 A . I have no i dea how many t ime s I was a s ked . I have no
1 7 idea .
1 8 Q . We l l , I can r e f r e s h your memory , you s t ated that once .
1 9 Let ' s s e e , a l so on that dat e do you reca l l a s king that my
2 0 daughte r s - - a s ked Judge Balonon that my daught e r s h ave to
2 1 go to therap y because of t he i r fathe r s t re s sed t hem out ?
2 2 A . The chi ldren were s upposed to be in coun s e l l ing with
2 3 Penny Hancoc k . I recal l stat ing that I f e l t the g i r l s
2 4 needed to s e e the i r couns e lor a ft e r wha t they ob s e rved .
2 5 That had t o b e f r ight ening for them .
26 Q . And why had they not been in - - i f they were s upposed
2 7 to be i n coun s e l l ing with Penny Hancoc k , why were they not
2 8 in coun s e l l i ng with Penny Hancoc k ?
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MR . S OKOL : Obj ection , cal l s for conj e cture .
THE COURT : More important l y i t ' s not r e l evant to
these p roceedi ng s .
THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
Q . Do you r e ca l l a s king Judge Ba lonon t ha t Penny
Hancock -- when my daugh t e r s di d see Penny Hancoc k , that
Penny Hancoc k not be a l lowed to be s ubpoenaed a t a l l ?
A . Ms . Hancoc k agreed to be a therap i s t for the g i r l s on
the condit ion that s h e be a l lowed to be t he i r con f ident i a l
therap i s t a n d not be s ubpoenaed . That i s p a r t of the order
appoint ing her a t her reque s t , and eve ryone agreed to t hat .
Q . Wel l , not everyone ; I didn ' t . What was your fear of
or concern of not having Penny Hancock be s ubpoenaed , i n
l ight of the f a c t of - - that t h e r e was a n a l l egation by a
parent of a chi l d , who a t that t ime had j oint l e g a l cus tody ,
of a n a s s a u l t on a c h i l d ? What wou ld have been - - what was
your f e a r of not having Penny Hancoc k be subpoenaed to be - -
A . I had no fea r , i t wasn ' t my reque s t .
Q . Um-hmm .
A . I t was Ms . Hancoc k ' s reque st so that she coul d mai n t a i n
a con f i dent i a l r e l a t ion ship with her two pat i ent s .
Q . And what happens in l ight of a s i tuation that occurred
i n your o f f i ce t hat i n -- when my daughters wou l d mee t with
Penny Hancoc k and i n the - - at the in-t a ke s e s s ion t hat they
woul d t e l l h e r spec i f i c a l l y what - - they woul d t e l l h e r
about t he i n c i dent that occurred with you a n d then what
happens regarding her not be i ng abl e to be subpoenaed?
MR . SOKOL : Obj e ct ion , "what happen s " ca l l s for
SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 2
1 conj ecture .
2 THE COURT : We l l , i t ' s rea l l y not r e l e vant to t h i s
3 proceeding . I ' m not quite sure - - I mean , i f you have a
4 prob l em with the condi t ions of Ms . Hancoc k ' s appointment ,
5 then f i l e a mot ion .
6 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm . We l l , Mr . Sokol i s
7 t rying to s uppre s s my abi l i t y to f i l e mot ion s . That w i l l
8 have to be t a ken up in another s i tuat ion .
9 THE COURT : I - - okay .
1 0 THE RES PONDENT : I onl y f i l e d one to date .
1 1
1 2
1 3 Q .
THE COURT : Anyway , not an i s sue for me toda y .
THE RES PONDENT : Oka y .
Did my daugh t e r s ever t e l l you that they phoned me
1 4 a ft e r that dat e twice and my daugh t e r s told me - - both my
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daught e r s told me that they spoke to Penny Hancoc k ?
A . I can ' t t e s t i fy a s to what thos e g i r l s have told me ,
I ' m t h e i r a t torne y .
Q . Okay . We l l , I ' l l get to t hat l a t e r when I get to
t e st i fy . Let ' s see , do you a l so recal l inc ident s where I
b rought to l ig ht s i tuat ion s that my daught e r s were i n where
I voi ced my concern of things t hat they had s a i d , and one
where t h e y one of m y daugh t e r s was phys i c a l l y a s s aulted
by a c h i l d i n t h e i r s chool at Apr i l Berger ' s home , and I wa s
ve ry conce rned about i t and I was rea l l y di smayed by Ap r i l
not addre s s i ng t h e i s sue and blowing i t o f f a s i f it wa s
me re l y a matt e r of - - you know , it wa s no b i g dea l ? Do you
remembe r me doing t ha t and do you r emember I sent you an
e-ma i l about tha t ?
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 3
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THE COURT : Let ' s b a c k up .
THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
THE COURT : We are h e re on a dome s t i c v i o l ence
4 r e s t r a i n i ng orde r .
5 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
6 THE COURT : Ms . Van Beveren i s not a l i s ted
7 protected p a r t y , nor coul d she be .
8 THE RES PONDENT : Ri ght .
9
1 0 partie s .
1 1
1 2
THE COURT : The chi l dren are l i sted a s protected
THE RES PONDENT : Um-hmm .
THE COURT : She h a s t e s t i fied ' a s t o h e r ve r s i on of
1 3 the event s that occurred that day . You obvious l y have your
1 4 own ver s i on that you a r e going t o t e s t i f y t o .
1 5
1 6
THE RES PONDENT : Ye s .
THE COURT : I ' m not qui t e sure why M s . Van Beve ren
1 7 needs t o be here any l onge r .
1 8 THE RES PONDENT : We l l
1 9 THE COURT : We are not going t o be l it igat ing
2 0 he r - - the value that she adds to t h i s c a s e o r the det r iment
2 1 that she adds t o t h i s case by being minors ' coun s e l . We are
2 2 not going t o b e l it igat ing any e f fort on your part t o r emove
2 3 he r . We are not l i t igat ing the par ame t e r s o f Penny
2 4 Hancoc k ' s couns e l l ing o f your chi ldren . We are not dea l ing
2 5 with cus t ody o rde r s whi ch are a l ready i n pl ace . Why are
2 6 we - - why don ' t we move on ?
2 7 THE RES PONDENT : We l l , Your Honor , the r e a s on why
2 8 I ' m c on t i nu i n g my l i ne o f que s t i on i n g i s b e c a u s e o f t he f a c t
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 4
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1 that I have evidence that goes t o there being supp re s s i on o f
2
3
evidence and a cove rup on Sept ember 2 4 th at the h e a r i ng with
Judge B a l onon that would spe a k t o the t ruth o f what actually
4 occurred that day i n h e r o f f i ce . S o I j ust want ed t o ma ke
5 sure that i t - - t hat i t ' s stated i n h e r l ine o f que s t ioning
6 so that I can - - I didn ' t know f o r sure who - - other than
7 he r a s king f o r Penny Hanco c k t o be - - not t o be a l l owed to
8 be s ubpoenaed
9 THE COURT : Excu s e me , that wasn ' t her t e s t imony .
1 0
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THE RES PONDENT : Right . Right .
THE COURT : Wel l , don ' t s a y r i ght , that was n ' t her
1 2 t e s t imony .
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THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
THE COURT : Her t e s t imony wa s that Penny Hanco c k
a g r e e d t o be t he therap i s t
THE RES PONDENT : Right .
THE COURT : - - on t he condit i on that she not be
1 8 subpoenaed .
1 9 THE RES PONDENT : Um-hrnrn .
2 0 THE COURT : That i s d i f f erent than s a ying that
2 1 minor s ' coun s e l a s ked that that be a condit ion .
2 2 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . O ka y , fine . Thank you ,
2 3 Your Hono r , f o r c l a r i fying t hat . Now I do have one
2 4 que s t i on , i t ' s p robab l y my l a st .
2 5 Q . Ms . Van Beve r e n , wa s I contacted at a l l , g i ven the fact
2 6 that I wa s - - s t i l l had j oint l e g a l cust ody , and a s you s a i d
2 7 befo r e , y o u wanted Penny t he g i r l s t o g o into t he r ap y
2 8 with Penny Hancock pr1or t o S eptembe r 2 4 t h , did you contact
SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 3 5
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me regarding that o r do you reca l l Apr i l Berger cont act ing
me a t a l l as far as my i nput into t hat , g iven the fact that
I - - a s a having j oint l e g a l custody I had a r i ght t o be
cont acted and con s u l t ed in choo s ing who my daugh t e r s could
and wou ld s e e ? Do you reca l l me be i ng contacted at a l l or
my attorney Tom Pena at that t ime being cont acted?
THE W I TNES S : Do you want me to a n swer that ? I
feel that i s part o f - - I don ' t see any h a rm i n what I woul d
s a y , b u t i t ' s part o f m y role a s minor s ' coun s e l .
THE COURT : You know , I don ' t know anyth i ng about
t h i s c a s e . Answer the que s t i on i f you woul d .
THE W I TNE S S : I know that the cho i c e o f coun s e l
w a s d i s c u s s e d w i t h t he attorneys for b o t h p a r t i e s .
THE RES PONDENT :
Q . R i ght .
A . And Mr . Pena would be abl e to ver i fy that .
Q . Um-hmm .
A . As t o t h e f i n a l s e l ection o f Penny Hanco c k , I know that
I de f i n i t e l y woul d have s upported h e r s e l e c t i on a s mino r s '
coun s e l - - o r a s a therapist for the chi l dren i n my r o l e as
minor s ' couns e l . My rea soning for who wa s p i c ked and who
wasn ' t by the j udge , I h ave -- I did not have cont r o l ove r
t hat . You ' d h ave t o a s k the two att orneys , your a t t o rney
and M s . Berger ' s attorney , what obj e ct ions o r s upport they
had i n s e l e c t i ng Ms . Hancoc k . Al l I did wa s di s cu s s the
mat t e r with M s . Hancock t o see if she would be w i l l ing t o do
i t , and she w a s w i l l i ng unde r the p arame t e r s that I h ave
stated a l ready , and an orde r w a s dra ft e d to meet those
SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 3 6
1 guide l i ne s that s he reque s t e d . And - -
2 THE COURT : Period .
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THE RES PONDENT : O ka y .
THE W ITNES S : I don ' t know what e l s e I can s a y .
THE RES PONDENT : You answered the que s t i on . Thank
6 you . I gue s s I have no more que s t ions for Ms . Van Beveren .
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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l .
MR . SOKOL : No que s t i on s . I have one .
THE COURT : What ?
MR . S OKOL : One .
REDI RECT EXAM I NAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :
Q . At s ome point you were reaching for the g i r l s ; had you
c a l l e d -- or a s ked the secretary to ca l l the kids ' mother at
that t ime ?
A .
Q .
P r i o r t o that , ye s .
And why were you reaching for t hem?
1 7 A . So t hat he couldn ' t t a ke t hem f rom my o f f i c e . I wanted
1 8 to keep t hem there for mother t o p i c k up at my o f f i ce .
1 9
2 0
Q .
A .
2 1 wa s .
Why did you want that ?
Because I w a s a fr a i d o f h im driving them a s up s e t a s he
2 2 Q . Thank you .
2 3 MR . SOKOL : I have no other que st ions .
2 4 THE COURT : I have one que s t i on . Were the
2 5 daught e r s brought t o your o f f i ce by the i r fathe r ?
2 6 THE W I TNE S S : Y e s .
2 7 THE COURT : Wa s the p l an at t he out s e t for the
2 8 father to t a ke them when he l e f t ?
SACRAMENTO O FF I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 3 7
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THE W ITNES S : Y e s .
THE COURT : And then l a t e r that n ight there was
3 going t o be an exchange ?
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THE W ITNES S : Correct .
THE COURT : O ka y , thanks . I unde r s t and the
6 l ands cape . You are excus ed .
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1 4 way .
THE W I TNES S : Thank you , Your Honor .
THE COURT : Let ' s t a ke a b re a k for t en mi nute s .
THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .
THE W ITNES S : Am I free to l eave , Your Hono r ?
THE COURT : As f a r a s I ' m conce rned .
MR . SOKOL : Y e s .
THE COURT : Let ' s ma ke it f i fteen minut e s , by the
1 5 ( Whe r eupon a b r e a k was t a ken in t he proceedings . )
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THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , who would you l i ke t o cal l ?
MR . SOKOL : Dr . Apr i l Berge r .
THE COURT : Come on up .
THE CLERK : P l e a s e r a i s e your r ight hand . Do you
2 0 s o l emnl y s t a t e the t e s t imony you are about t o give i n the
2 1 cause now pending be fore thi s Court sha l l be the t ruth , the
2 2 whol e t ruth , and nothing but the truth?
2 3
2 4
THE W ITNES S : I do .
THE C LERK : P l e a s e be s e a t ed and s t a t e your f u l l
2 5 name for the r e c o rd .
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2 8
THE W I TNE S S : Apr i l Ann Berge r .
THE COURT : Thank you . Mr . S o ko l .
MR . SOKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .
SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 8
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APRI L BERGE R ,
c a l l e d a s a w i tn e s s on beha l f o f t h e Pet i t i one r , a ft e r f i r s t
being dul y sworn , t e s t i f i e d a s fol l ows :
D I RECT EXAMI NAT I ON BY MR . SOKOL :
5 Q . Dr . Berge r , you f i l ed the r e s t ra i n i ng o rder i n t h i s
6 case ?
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A .
Q .
Ye s , I did .
Why did you do s o ?
A . I wa s a l a rmed b y the behavior - - e s ca l at i on o f behavior
o f my chi ldren ' s fathe r in the attorney ' s o f f i ce , and I was
a fr a i d for my and t he i r s a fet y .
THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , can I a s k a que s t i on , the
que s t ion that h a s been s ort of i n the ba c k of my mind s ince
the moment I reviewed t hi s ; I s igned t h i s on October 1 s t , I
s i gned i t because I wa s a l a rmed a t the s i tuat i on involving
the chi ldren b a s ed upon the a l l egat ions and the a l l eged
1 7 conduct vi s -a - v i s minor s ' couns e l . You have cu s t ody orde r s
1 8 in pl ace , a s I unde r s t and i t you have supe rvi s ed vi s i t a t i on
1 9 in p l a ce , why i s there a need f o r a r e s t raining orde r ?
2 0 MR . S OKOL : Wel l , becaus e the custody orde r s wi l l
2 1 prevent h a rm t o t he chi l dren , but my c l i e nt - - hope ful l y
2 2 my c l ient does need r e s t ra i n i ng o rder s becau s e o f t h e
2 3 viol ent behavi o r o f M r .
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beca u s e
T H E COURT : O f what ?
MR . S OKOL : Of Mr . S a under s .
THE COURT : Wel l , i t bet t e r be against h e r
T H E RES PONDENT : I - -
SACRAMENTO O F F I C IAL COURT REPORTERS ---------3 9
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THE COURT : -- you know , E l a i ne Van Beve ren i s not
going to be a protected p a rt y .
MR . S OKOL : I unde r s t and .
THE COURT : The kids are a l r e ady protected . So I
j u st want t o ma ke sure we are a l l on t he s ame page here .
MR . SOKOL : Ye s .
THE COURT : Okay .
MR . SOKOL :
9 Q . Dr . Berge r , in t h i s matt e r we re you orde red t o go to
1 0 anger management with Jac k Love and with Mr . S aunde r s ?
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1 8
A . Ye s , we were .
THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Hono r , that i s
inaccurat e . I t wasn ' t i t wa s coup l e s coun s e l l ing , not
anger management .
THE COURT : Mr . S aunde r s , when i t ' s your t u rn t o
a s k que s t ions you c a n correct h e r in t hat f a s h i on .
THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .
apologi z e . I ' m new t o t hi s , I ' m not sure o f a l l the
1 9 procedure s . I appreciate your di rect ion .
2 0 MR . S OKOL :
2 1 Q . What , i f anything , happened at those - - that mee t i ng
2 2 with Mr . Love ?
2 3 A . I n our s e s s i on s w i t h Jac k Love , Bob wa s - - Robe rt
2 4 Saunder s wa s cont inua l l y verba l l y aggre s s ive , j umped at
I
2 5 acro s s the cha i r s between us , pointed finge r s , enough t ime s
2 6 where M r . Love a s ked him t o s top s ever a l t ime s . He r e fused
2 7 to s t op , he kept lunging , poi nt ing , cur s i ng me t o the point
2 8 where Jac k Love ended the s e s s ions , told me t o go to my car
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT RE PORTERS --------- 4 0
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and leave and that Robert wa s t o s t a y in the room unt i l I
was s a fe l y i n my c a r and gone . And he ended the s e s s ions
a ft e r that because he t hought t hat -- I a s sume t hat they
were not fruit ful because o f the con t i nued aggr e s s ion and
ye l l ing a t me .
Q . O ka y . And did he s a y go t o your ca r ?
A . H e s a i d g o t o your car . I want you t o s t a y here , I
want you t o go t o your c a r and l eave .
Q . Did he keep Mr . S aunder s there ?
A . He kept him there i n h i s o f fi ce unt i l I was gone and --
Q . And why i f you know , why did h e keep h im there and
let you l eave ?
A . I a s sume because he feared for my s a fe t y t o u s l eaving
both t o the par king lot a t the s ame t ime . B y t h i s t ime I
wa s sha king and crying and a l a rmed b y the
Q . Why were you sha king and c rying a t t ha t t ime ?
A . Because he was j umping out o f h i s cha i r , cursing me ,
s aying things were a l l my faul t , j abbing h i s finger a t the
a i r a t me , i n the o f f i c e of Jac k Love .
Q . We re you s ub s e quent l y r e f e rred t o Karen Harold?
A . Ye s , we were concerned [ s i c ] t o Karen Harol d .
Q . B y whom?
A . B y the Court , I be l ieve unde r E la ine Van Beveren ' s
sugge s t ion .
Q . I s she a con f l ict coach ?
A . Con f l ict coaching .
Q . What , i f anything , happened the r e ?
A . During those s e s s ions M r . S aunder s cont inued t o
SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 4 1
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�
verba l l y berate me and ye l l a t me , point h i s finger at me ,
j ab , s a y that things were a l l my fault . She would nume rous
t ime s t e l l h im t o s top , that wa s n ' t fruit ful for con f l i ct
management . S he woul d , on ever y s e s s ion , h ave h im s t a y in
the room and h ave me go t o my car f i r s t , or at l e a s t she
woul d s omet ime s fol low -- she woul d ma ke sure I got i n my
car and l e f t f i r s t during those s e s s i on s .
Q . Did you become f e a r fu l when he wa s shout ing and ye l l ing
at you ?
A . Y e s , because o f the degree o f h i s behavior s e emed t o
be come mo re b i z ar r e a n d more aggr e s s ive .
Q . At s ome point did you - - you own a home , do you not ?
A . Ye s , I do .
Q . And M r . S aunde r s l i ved with you a t t ha t home ; i s t hat
correct ?
A . Ye s , he did .
Q . At s ome point did you a s k h im t o l eave ?
A . I a s ked h im t o l eave ; h e refused t o do s o . There wa s
a - -
T H E COURT : Excuse me , Couns e l , c a n w e at s ome
point get to s ome decade s , yea r s , month s or s omething? I
have no idea when Jac k Love wa s invo lved , I have no i de a
when Karen H a r o l d w a s involve d , and I have n o idea when
these people l ived togethe r o r what she is about t o t e s t i fy
to .
MR . S OKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .
Q . The anger management with Jac k Love wa s done when?
A . I bel ieve i t was previous t o the S eptembe r date .
SACRAMENTO OFFIC I AL COURT REPORTERS ---------4 2
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Q .
A .
Q .
A .
Septembe r o f ' 0 8 ?
Ye s , it w a s previous t o that by seve r a l months .
Okay . And Karen --
Karen Harol d . We were s e e i ng h e r during a f t e r Jac k
5 Love , t hen we were refe r red t o Karen Harold . S o we s aw he r
6 probabl y - - I ' m not sure o f t he exact dat e s , but , you know ,
7 Jul y , Augu s t , Septembe r , becau s e on one o f those i n c i dent s
8 Ka ren Harold was s ending repor t s on how our s e s s ions were
9 going for the court , and a ft e r the S ep t embe r 2 3 rd inc ident
1 0 i n E l ai ne ' s o f fi ce Robert l e ft a vo i ce ma i l on Karen
1 1 Harol d ' s t e l ephone l ine t hat she t ra n s c r ibed and made
1 2 ava i l ab l e f o r the court , I be l i eve i t ' s i n the document s ,
1 3 that Robe rt s a id t o t he e f fe c t that he had been s crewed by
1 4 the court , that E l a ine had a t t a c ked him and h i s chi l dren and
1 5 i t a l l j u st went to h e c k i n a handbas ket and i t wa s a l l
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E l a i ne ' s faul t .
Q . So t h i s i nvolvement with M s . Harold wa s s omewh e r e
a round S eptembe r - - Jul y to S eptember o f ' 0 8 ?
A . Ye s .
Q . And when the l a t e s t thing I was a s k i ng about , when you
a s ked M r . S aunde r s to l eave your hous e , when wa s tha t ?
A . I a s ked h im t o l eave my house i n Jun e o f ' 0 6 , a round
that t ime , a ft e r we had been t hrough three ma r r i age
coun s e l o r s . The l a s t of whom, Barba ra Goldbe rg , sugge sted
to me for my s a fe t y that I s hould end the re l a t i onship , that
there was no -- be in my and t he chi ldren ' s b e s t i n t e re s t .
I a s ked Robert t o l eave on my own ; he r e fused t o do s o . I
remember one inc ident a r ound t hat t ime i n Jun e / Ju l y o f ' 0 6 I
SACRAMENTO O F F I C I AL COURT REPORTERS --------- 4 3
1 wa s i n my kitche n , Bob was at the r e f r i gerat o r , the g i r l s
2 were i n a very back bedroom, and I s a i d , you know , i t
3 doe s n ' t h ave t o be thi s way , j us t p l e a s e l eave . He refused
4 t o do s o , became real l y ve rb a l l y aggre s s ive . He s l ammed the
5 r e f r i ge r a t o r door and l unged at me , and I b e l i eve he would
6 have h i t me , except for my daught e r Jul i a came f rom the back
7 o f the bedroom on her s coot e r and s a i d , daddy , daddy , don ' t
8 ye l l at mom, s t op s creaming a t my mothe r , don ' t h i t my
9 mothe r , s omething t o those e ffect .
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Q . Did he swear a t you at that t ime ?
THE COURT : Jus t s o we are c l e a r , the incident she
i s t e s t i f ying t o i s not in t h e app l i ca t i on , s o I ' m not going
to con s ide r i t .
THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .
THE W I TNE S S : I t h i n k i t i s .
THE COURT : No , page 2 o f 2 , DV- 1 0 1 , s t a r t s o f f
with "When I t o l d Robert t h a t there wa s a court order
requ i r i ng h im t o l e ave , " and I woul d sugge s t that what you
are t a l king about preda t e s a court orde r .
THE W I TNES S : Okay .
MR . S OKOL :
Q . At some point did you t e l l Mr . Saunde r s that you had
obta ined a court order for h im t o l eave ?
A . Ye s , I d i d , and those were s e rved on him . They s t ayed
2 5 on our porch for a numb e r o f days wher e he wal ked ove r them .
2 6 On Jul y 1 s t I l e f t with the chi ldren and c a l led the
2 7 she r i f f ' s department because there wa s an evi ct i on not i ce
2 8 for him and he w a s re fus ing t o l e ave . The she r i f f came , my
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have t o w i t ne s s t h i s . My mom c a l led a l o c k smith t o change
the l o c ks , and Bob re fused to l eave unt i l the s h er i f f told
h im he had t o l e ave . He got two or three bags o f h i s
belongings and l e ft and t h e l o c ks were changed . He t o l d my
mothe r he woul d b r e a k i n and he cursed her .
THE COURT : Okay, t h i s - - t h i s i s hears a y . I
mean , i f you want t o c l ean i t up , fine , but j us t s o we are
clea r , I ' m going to i gnore anything that is not admi s s ible .
Q .
MR . S OKOL : Thank you , Your Hono r .
THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .
MR . SOKOL :
Aft e r that - - s o he did not l eave volunt a r i l y ?
A . He did not l eave vo l unt a ri l y . The sheri f f ' s department
enforced the evict ion not ice and he l e ft --
Q . Than k you .
A . -- with the sher i f f .
Q . S i nce that t ime h a s he been abus ive ve rba l l y o r
phys i c a l l y w i t h you ?
A . I n the court -orde red anger management s e s s ions with
Jac k Love and with Karen Harold .
Q . O ka y . Did he come t o your wor k a t any t ime ?
A . Previous t o me - - a round the t ime that he was evicted,
Jul y , he came to my office and screamed and ye l l ed and
banged on f i l e cabine t s in f ront o f my co -wor ke r s .
THE COURT : I don ' t b e l i eve that i s i n t h e
2 7 appl i ca t i on .
2 8 THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .
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MR . SOKOL : I t h i n k that - -
T H E W I TNE S S : I t ' s i n the court r ecord , t hough ,
t hat I have witne s s s ta t ement s .
THE COURT : I don ' t care . I t cou l d be a po l i ce
report , i t could be a convict ion .
MR . SOKOL : I s the - -
THE COURT : Ju st s o we are c l e a r , a DV app l i ca t i on
i s f r amed b y the app l icat ion , p l u s whatever events occurred
a ft e r i t wa s s e rved -- or actua l l y what ever event s occurred
a f t e r it was f i l e d .
MR . SOKOL : O ka y .
THE COURT : So that - - I mean , that i s only f a i r
to Mr . S aunde r s .
Hono r .
MR . SOKOL : I have no prob l em with that , Your
THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Hono r .
MR . SOKOL :
Q . The rea s on I ' m a s king t h e s e que s t ions i s my que s t i on t o
Dr . Berger i s i s that behavio r cons i st ent w i t h what h a s been
t e s t i f i ed t o s o far f rom his point of view?
A . Ye s , h i s behavio r .
Q . Have the chi ldren been s ub j ected to ye l l i ng by Mr .
with threats and anger d i s p l a yed in the i r pre s ence b y
Mr . S aunde r s ?
MR . SAUNDERS : Obj e ct ion , Your Hono r , he i s
l eading t he witnes s .
THE COURT : Susta ined .
MR . S OKOL :
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Q . Have the chi ldren been p r e sent when Mr . S aunde r s did
any yel l i ng o r s creaming ?
A . Ye s , they have .
Q . Now , were you - - you heard t e s t imony o f t he chi l dren ' s
attorney here ; on 9 - 2 3 - 0 8 , the day before the hear ing , did
you receive a ca l l from the chi ldren ' s attorney?
A . I had nume rous me s s ages on my ce l l phone .
Q . From?
A . From her of fice , E l a ine Van Beveren .
Q . Were you fearful , based on those me s s a ge s , for t he
chi l dren ?
A . Ye s , I wa s , but by t he t ime I rece ived t hem , the i r
pate rna l g randmother had del ivered t hem back t o me about a
ha l f hour l a t e .
Q . And why a r e the children l i s ted a s p rotected p e r sons in
the r e s t raining orde r ?
A . I a s ked for them to be l i s ted a s we l l because
immediat e l y after Judge Ba l onon ' s s upervi sed l eve l -t hree
vis i t s , Bob l e ft from the Court , went to the s choo l , and was
t a l king with the chi ldren about what happened . I had been
there a t the s ame t ime i n Chri s t i e Va l e [ phone t i c ] , t he
principa l ' s o f f i c e , g iving h e r the new court orde r s , and she
didn ' t rea l i ze he was there a l ready t a l king with the
chi ldren when she a s ked them t o come into her o f f i ce .
Q . When wa s t h i s ?
A . T h i s w a s on Jul y - - S ep t embe r 2 4 t h , ' 0 8 .
Q . And thi s i s a ft e r t he o rde r s were made that he -
A . The s ame
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Q . - - the supervi sed - -
A . That s ame - - immedi a t e l y a ft e r l eaving court , t hat
a fte rnoon at s chool .
Q . Wa s Mr . S aunde r s pre sent in court when the j udge
o rde red no contact , other than -- other than s upervi sed
cont a ct with t h e chi ldren?
A . He was .
THE COURT : Coul d I get s ome c l a r i f i ca t i o n f rom
you , Mr . S o ko l , was Mr . S aunder s repre s ented at t hat t ime ?
MR . SOKOL : I don ' t hone s t l y rememb e r . I be l i eve
he had an a t t o rney . He has had , I t h i n k , four now , s o I
can ' t r emember .
THE COURT : Okay, we l l - -
MR . S OKOL : He mu st have had an a t t o rney .
THE W I TNE S S : I bel ieve - -
T H E RES PONDENT : Y o u r Hono r , I wa s n o t repre s ented
by coun s e l . My couns e l , Tom Pena , had s ub s t ituted out , I
b e l i eve , that morning o r t he evening before .
THE COURT : Let me j us t - -
THE RES PONDENT :
record regarding that .
I can get s ome paperwo r k for the
you .
THE COURT : Pro p e r p e r the minute o rde r . Thank
MR . SOKOL : Thank you , Your Honor .
Q . Was there a point a ft e r t h i s 9 - 2 4 - 0 8 hearing that
Mr . S aunde r s a t t empted t o contact the chi ldren ?
A . That very a ft e rnoon on our home answering ma chine there
wa s a me s s age , on S eptembe r 2 4 t h o f ' 0 8 , from Robert t o the
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you know the phone numbe r s .
que s t ion
produced
kind o f
T H E RES PONDENT : Obj ect i on , Your Honor .
THE W I TNE S S : I immediat e l y
THE RES PONDENT : Hearsay evi dence . I - - I
why Mr . S o ko l and M s . - - and M s . Berger have
phone records t hat would a l lege to - -
THE COURT : Let ' s b a c k up . The purpo s e o f
t e s t imony i s not for t h e t ruth o f what she i s
not
t h i s
t e st i fy ing t o , i t ' s for the impact , i f any , on h e r own state
1 1 of mind . Give me one s e cond becaus e I t h i n k i t wi l l help i f
1 2 I read t h i s incredib l y long order here . Ho l d on a s e cond .
1 3 I j us t want ed t o ma ke a point , the o rde r s o f
1 4 S ept embe r 2 4 t h , not t o c r i t i c i ze a c o l l eague , which means
1 5 I ' m not c r i t i c i z i ng a c o l league , do not p revent Mr . S aunde rs
1 6 from cont a c t i n g h i s chi l dren , by phone a t l e a s t . B y
1 7 imp l i ca t i on they certainly prevent h im from phys i c a l l y being
1 8 with h i s chi ldren , but unl e s s s omebody can point out t o me
1 9 where on t h i s three-page handwritten order there i s a
2 0 proh i b i t i on against h im phoning them , e -ma i l ing them ,
2 1 t ext i ng t hem - - I obvious l y unde r s t and how t h e s e department s
2 2 work and I do under st and t he l imitat ions of l aw and mot ion
2 3 hearings and t he d i f f i cu l t y o f t rying t o w r i t e out orde r s ,
2 4 but t he DVRO w a s not i n place on Septembe r 2 5 th o r 2 6t h or
2 5 what ever dat e we are at now . I t was n ' t i n p l a c e unt i l
2 6 October 1 . S o I j u st wanted t o point that out .
2 7
2 8
THE RES PON DENT : Thank you , Your Honor .
MR . SOKOL : I ' m t a l king about t he court order
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i s sued by Judge Ba l onon on 9 - 2 4 , Your Honor . That i s what
we h ave been t a l king about .
THE COURT : That i s what I j us t read . Show me
where i t s a y s t here i s no contact a l lowed .
MR . S OKOL : Where i t says s o l e l e g a l and s o l e
phys i ca l cus t ody to moth e r .
THE COURT : Where doe s that s a y he can ' t t a l k to
h i s chi ldren on the phone? All I ' m saying i s if that had
been the de s i r e , s omebody s hould have r a i s e d i t at the t ime .
MR . SOKOL : O ka y .
Q . Were you in court on March 9 t h when Mr . S aunde r s wa s
present w i t h Judge Matt Gary ?
A . Ye s , I wa s .
Q . And what - - did you obs e rve the behavi o r o f
Mr . S aunder s a t t ha t t ime ?
A . Ye s , I d i d .
THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Honor , I ' m t rying
to wonde r why that they are con s t ant l y b ringing that up . I t
s ounds l i ke t h e y are on a f i shing e xpedi t i on t o - - what doe s
that have t o do w i t h the r e s t r a in ing order which was f i led
by Apr i l Berger because she s omehow said - - she made
a l l egat ion s that she f e a red f o r h e r s a fe t y and we l l -being ,
et cetera , e t cetera ? What doe s that have to do w i t h court ,
I had no cont act w i th h e r ?
THE COURT : Mr . S o ko l , would you l i ke to re spond?
MR . SOKOL : Ye s , Your Hono r . The behavi o r - - the
que s t i on that - - that was a p re l iminary que s t i o n , the
fo l low-up que stion was did you obs e rve his behavior at that
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t ime and wa s t ha t the behavi o r about whi ch you comp l a ined in
your re s t ra i ni ng o rde r ?
THE W I TNE S S : Yes .
MR . SOKOL :
Q . We re you pre sent when the Court o rdered that he go
though a ps ych o l o g i c a l t e s t ing , complete ps ycho l og i c a l
t e s t ing ?
A . Ye s . Y e s , I was .
Q . Do you know whether o r not that h a s occurred?
A . To my knowl edge i t ' s not occurred s ince i t wa s o rdered .
Q . Are you a fr a id o f M r . S a unde r s before he gets
psych i a t r i c t reatment ?
A . Y e s . T h i s i s not the p e r s on I met ten ye a r s ago .
Q . Are you a fr a id f o r your chi l dren ?
A . I ' m a f r a i d for my chi ldren a s wel l .
Q . Have you - - ha s Mr . Saunder s attempted t o a l i enate the
children from you ?
A . Ye s , he h a s .
Q . I n what way?
A . I n nume rous ways . He h a s t o l d them i n Van Beve ren ' s
o f fi ce , a s s he j ust t e s t i f i e d , that the i r mother i s a l i a r .
Penny Hanco c k h a s t o l d me that he h a s a s ked t hem t o ca l l him
after t he r e s t ra ining orde r , he has t o l d them t o t a ke not e s
on me .
THE RES PONDENT : Obj e c t i on , Your Hono r , hea r s a y
evidence . Whe re are the fact s ?
THE COURT : Fi r s t o f a l l , the obj e c t i on i s
s u s t a i ned , but i t ' s s u s t ained p r ima r i l y becaus e it ' s not
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THE RES PONDENT : Thank you , Your Honor .
MR . SOKOL :
Q . Are you reque s t ing that t h e s e t emporary r e s t ra i n ing
orde r s be come pe rmanent r e s t r a ining orde r s ?
A . I am .
Q . Prot ect ing you , t he chi l dren , f rom -- your s e l f , your
home , your o f f i ce , the s choo l and the l e a rning cent e r ?
A . I am .
Q .
A .
What i s the l earning cent e r ?
The l e a rning cent e r i s a math and tutoring p l ace t hat
1 2 the g i r l s were r e ce iving math tutoring a t .
1 3 MR . S OKOL : Thank you . I have no further
1 4 que s t ions .
1 5 THE COURT : Ju st t o b e c l e a r , a t s ome point a l ong
1 6 the road here s omebody s hould h ave modi f i ed t h i s r e s t ra ining
1 7 orde r , even i n i t s t emporary s t at e , t o a l low b r i e f and
1 8 peace ful conta ct for court-ordered vi s i t at i on . So
1 9 theoret i c a l l y - - anyway , I ' m j us t pointing that out . I t ' s
2 0 neve r been done . I t should h ave been done a l ong t ime ago .
2 1 THE RES PONDENT : Than k you , Your Honor .
2 2 MR . SOKOL : I t ' s been reupped seve r a l t ime s and
2 3 it ' s - -
2 4 THE COURT : We l l , you know - -
2 5 MR . SOKOL : I know what the Court i s s a ying , but
2 6 the orders app e a r to s a y t hat t here should be no contact , by
2 7 imp l i ca t i on .
2 8 THE COURT : Yeah . You know , i t ' s a common
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1 prob l em .
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THE COURT : Obvi ou s l y I ' m pre s uming that
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MR . SOKOL : Supe rvi s e d . Now none , but
THE RES PONDENT : S i nce S ept ember 2 4 th .
THE W I TNES S : There - - a s o f March 3 rd there i s no
conta ct w i t h t he i r fathe r at a l l .
THE RES PONDENT : March 9 t h .
THE WITNE S S : March 9 t h , excuse me .
THE RES PONDENT : Judge Gary ordered - - h e ended my
1 2 supervi sed v i s i t a t ion without me r i t and j us t i f i cat ion .
1 3 THE COURT : O ka y . S i r , your witne s s .
1 4 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .
1 5 Fi r s t , l e t me s a y I obj ect t o Apr i l ' s t e s t imony . She h a s
1 6 commi tted mul t ip l e count s of p e r j ury . And rega rding h e r
1 7 hears a y evidence , I have no abi l i t y t o que s t ion the people
1 8 Apr i l a l l eged I mi sbehaved i n front o f , Jac k Love , who we
1 9 s aw i n l a t e Spring 2 0 0 8 , I be l i eve i t wa s two v i s i t s with
2 0 him, and I ' l l que s t ion h e r about that , and then a l s o Karen
2 1 Haro l d , the s umme r o f 2 0 0 8 . I a s k that h e r t e s t imony
2 2 regarding Jac k Love and Karen Harold be thrown out .
2 3 THE COURT : The obj ect i on i s over ru l ed . To the
2 4 extent that there ' s hea r s a y , i t ' s admi s s ib l e a s t o h e r state
2 5 o f mi nd , not t o the t ruth of the mat te r . As to what she
2 6 pe r s ona l l y witne s s e d , you can c r o s s -examine h e r .
2 7 THE RES PONDENT : O ka y . Thank you , Your Honor .
2 8 CRO S S -EXAM I NAT I ON BY THE RES PON DENT :
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Q . Apr i l , do you reca l l that in Jac k Love ' s o f f i ce when --
do you reca l l Jac k Love stat ing t hat often - - the f i r s t t ime
we were there , t hat often i t ' s di f f i cu l t regarding when
c a s e s a re going on for thi s p roce s s t o wor k ? When there are
active c a s e s going on usua l l y h e - - do you reca l l what he
said about t ha t ?
A . I r emember a conve r s at i on , s omething t o the e f fect that
t h i s is a cont ent i ous case and t hat i t w i l l make it
d i f f i cu l t for us t o get progre s s , but , you know , I ' m here to
h e lp you and -- s omething a l ong those l i ne s . I don ' t
rememb e r h i s exact s t a t ement .
Q . You a l l e g e that there w a s one t ime , the s econd t ime we
were there , that I j umped up , I -- you know , did whateve r ,
that there was t h reat ening behavior t owa rds you , whatever
you a l l e ge ; do you reca l l what - - exact l y what Jac k Love did
1 6 at that moment , i f anything?
17 A . He wa rned you seve r a l t ime s t o s t op your agg r e s s ive
1 8 ye l l ing , f inger-pointing behavi o r , t o s t op . You refused to
1 9 do that , s o he s a i d I ' m ending thi s s e s s i on , the s e s s ion i s
2 0 ove r . Apr i l , I want you t o go t o your c a r . Robert , you
2 1 stay here . I ' m ending our s e s s i on . And that i s when I l e f t
2 2 and you s t a yed i n the o ff i ce .
2 3 Q . So your t e s t imony i s t ha t what he s a id w a s that he
2 4 ordered me t o s t a y there and for you t o l e ave f i r s t ; i s that
2 5 what you are s t a t ing?
2 6 A . He did t e l l me t o g o f i r st and for you t o s t a y there ,
2 7 that i s my r e co l l e c t i on .
2 8 Q . Okay . I t wasn ' t that he gave - - do you reca l l h im
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giving u s a choice a s t o who coul d leave f i r s t a ft e r he
ended - - de c ided t o end the s e s s i on because he f e l t that we
3 would not ma ke progre s s given t he f a ct t hat we were i n
4 l i t i ga t i on , an ongo ing l it iga t ion? Do you reca l l that he
5 gave us a choi ce a s t o who woul d l eave f i r s t and s t ated that
6 i t doe s n ' t mat te r , e i th e r way ?
7 MR . SOKOL : The que s t ion conta i ns an awful lot o f
8 s i de i nnuendo s . I wonde r i f h e cou l d s impl y a s k the
9 que s t ion .
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1 1 Q .
THE RES PONDENT : Sure .
Do you reca l l that what Dr . Love actua l l y did was o f f e r
1 2 u s a choice a s t o who could l eave f i r s t and i t didn ' t mat t e r
1 3 who , e i t h e r one o f u s , i t ' s up to u s ?
1 4 A . I don ' t r emember him exact l y g iving us a choice . I
1 5 know h e l o o ked a t me and s a i d , go t o your c a r , and t o l d you
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t o s t a y there .
Q . What wa s s t ated i n the mee t i n g with Dr . Love ?
A . What wa s s t ated?
Q . Yeah , what were t he kinds of things that were d i s cu s s ed
in t h e mee t ing w i th Dr . Love ?
A . He was t r ying t o get u s t o - - you know , I gue s s be - -
get a l ong and b e able t o di s cu s s and co-parent our c h i l dren
e f fe c t i ve l y without r a i s ing our voi ce s , accus ing each other ,
and point ing f inge r s , and that wa s t he purpo s e o f our v i s i t .
That was a f t e r you had been court o rdered t o see Ron Brown ,
an anger management therap i s t , and he ended t ho s e v i s i t s ,
and then the court ordered Jac k Love . S o he was our s e cond ,
and Ka ren Love w a s our t h i rd anger management .
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THE COURT : Karen Harold?
THE W I TNE S S : Karen Haro l d , excus e me , w a s our
t h i rd court ordered -- I gue s s she ca l l s her s e l f a con f l i ct
coach .
THE RES PONDENT :
6 Q . R i ght , conf l i ct coaching . Ri ght , that i s what she
7 does . You t e s t i f ie d that there was a me s sage I l e f t on
8 Ka ren Harold ' s machine , voice machine , and that I made
9 negat ive comment s about the Court and that I s t a te d about
1 0 having the - - our daugh t e r s and mys e l f being a s s aulted by
1 1 we l l , a t t empt e d a s sault on one o f my daught e r s , but a s s ault
1 2 on mys e l f and one o f our daughte r s , b y M s . Van Beve ren the
1 3 n i ght before ; do you remember what e l s e I s a i d i n that
14 statement , why I couldn ' t ma ke it t o the mee t i n g that n i ght ?
1 5 A . I have a copy o f h e r report r i ght there on my de s k that
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you can read exact l y what s he t ranscribed your voice
me s s age , if you woul d l i ke . You l e f t t he me s s age on her
ma chine .
Q . Um-hmm .
A . And I have a copy on the de s k there o f h e r - -
THE COURT : The que s t ion wa s do you r e ca l l the
reason why he couldn ' t ma ke t he meet ing .
THE RES PONDENT : That i s r i ght . Thank you , Your
Hono r , for c l a r i fying that .
THE W I TNE S S : I don ' t reca l l the rea s on he
couldn ' t ma ke the meet ing . The g i s t o f i t wa s that he wa s
comp l a i ning that E l a i ne Van Beveren a t t a c ked h im and that he
had b ee n , quote , unquote , s c rewed i n court that day .
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THE RES PONDENT :
Q . Do you r e ca l l me stat ing a t a l l that the r e a s on why I
couldn ' t attend i t wa s that I was inj ured a s a r e s u l t of
E l a ine Van Beveren ' s a s sault on my person and that is why I
couldn ' t ma ke - -
A . I t h i n k there i s s omething in t here , t he fact that you
had been -- that it was the other -- you were a l leging the
other way a round , t ha t E laine a t t a c ked you , that you had
been s c rewed in court , and --
Q . That wasn ' t the que s t ion , though .
A . What w a s your que st ion?
Q . My que s t i on wa s do you reca l l that in the t ra n s c r ipt
from the phone c a l l t hat I s t ated -- do you reca l l that I
stated that I couldn ' t ma ke i t - - I woul dn ' t be ab l e t o
attend the s e s s ion t h a t n i ght with Karen H a r o l d a s a result
of being inj ured a s a result o f E la i ne Van Beve ren a t t a c king
me and having i n j u r i e s s u s t a ined from that a t t a c k ?
A . I b e l ieve there i s s omething t o that e f fect .
Q . O ka y , than k you . You a l s o stated t hat we went t o - -
t h e l a s t therap i s t w e saw wa s Barbara Goldber g , and you
ment i oned about t ha t ; do you know t hat Barbara Gol dberg
do you reca l l o r do you know that B a rbara Goldberg was cited
by the Behavioral S c i ence Board and fined for unprofe s s ional
and une t h i c a l behavior a s a r e s u l t o f the comp l a in t
que s t ion .
MR . S OKOL : Ob j e ction , i rr e l evant .
THE COURT : Overruled . You can answer the
THE W ITNE SS : Barbara Goldberg wa s t he t h i rd
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1 ma rri age and f ami l y coun s e lo r we have gone t o a s a coup l e ,
2 and I b e l i eve what you are r e ferring t o i s a - - she wrote a
3 character refe rence for me that I wa s a good mot h e r for the
4 court , and you obj ected becaus e s he had said that your
5 name , and you didn ' t l i ke j us t that your name was i n the
6 report , a nd that you made a comp l aint t o the t he rapy board
7 on that .
8 THE RES PONDENT :
9 Q . Do you r e ca l l that I comp l a ined about anything e l s e
1 0 regarding my comp la i nt about Barbar a Goldberg , bes ide s the
1 1 fact that she violated the e t h i c s o f h e r profe s s ion?
12 A . I ' m not sure what you a s ked me .
1 3 Q . We l l , do you know t hat there wa s anyth ing e l s e s t ated
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i n my compl a i nt about Barbara Goldb e r g ?
A . I never s aw your comp l a i nt about Barba r a Goldbe r g .
Q . Do you reca l l in any o f the court records i n
1 7 de c l a ra t ions that I made whe r e I stated s omething about
1 8 f i l ing a comp l aint against B a rbara Goldberg and that I
1 9 stated a l s o about how I felt that s h e wa s one - s i ded i n
2 0 h e r - - we l l , actua l l y , do you know what h e r a t t i tude wa s
2 1 t owards me ver s u s you ? Do you r e ca l l any t ime reading about
2 2 that i n any dec l a r a t i on s t ha t I wrot e ?
2 3 A . I don ' t reca l l any dec l arat i on s . I know you had i s sue
2 4 with a l l three therap i s t s that we saw . I t h i n k you l i ked
2 5 the second one a l i t t l e better t han t he f i r s t and the t h i rd
2 6 one , becaus e the s econd one was a man , I forget h i s name ,
2 7 the f i r s t one wa s a woma n , and Barbara Go ldbe rg wa s a woman .
2 8 THE RES PONDENT : I ' m t rying t o f i gure out how to
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1 phra s e a que s t ion , becaus e I f e e l t hat she i s s t a t ing
2 that - - and I a s k Your Honor how t o do t hat . She i s s t at ing
3 a s i f that because the p e r son , the s e cond one , t he
4 t herap i s t , was a man , that I l i ked h im bett e r t han the
5 othe r s , a s i f t hat i s r e l evant . I mean , the fact of h i s
6 gende r me ant nothing to me .
7 MR . SOKOL : I ' m not sure what the que s t i on i s ,
8 Your Hono r .
9 THE RES PONDENT : I ' m not sure what t o think
1 0 beca u s e how - - I ' m concerned becau s e she being a woman who
1 1 f i led wha t I b e l i eve
1 2 THE COURT : I gue s s you coul d j u s t a s k h e r the
1 3 que s t i on .
1 4 THE RES PONDENT : Okay . Yeah , o ka y , thank you .
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Q . Why do you feel t hat I you know , what you s a i d i s
that I l i ked t h e s e cond one the s e cond therap i s t better
than the first o r t he third; why do you f e e l I l i ked the
second therap i s t bett e r ?
A . Because you t o l d me you d i d yea r s ago , t h a t you
l i ked -- you thought we made s ome progre s s with t hat
therapi st .
Q . Okay . Good answe r , thank you . Do you know o f
s i tuat ions o r t ime s whe r e Jul i a and Laur a , our daught e r s ,
phoned me t o t e l l me about - - a ft e r S ep t embe r 2 4 th that they
phoned me and -- to t e l l me about certain s i t ua t ions that
were going on , t o l d me about what they d i s cus s e d with Penny
Hancock and things of t hat s o rt ? Becaus e you s t at ed that I
c a l l e d , s o I ' m j ust t rying t o ver i fy the fact t hat whether
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or not you know that they phoned me ?
A . Penny Hancoc k t o l d me - - t ol d me that the g i r l s t o ld
her that they had continued t o ca l l you and they were t o
4 t a ke not e s on my behavi or , and that
5 Q . Real l y ? S o what you are s t a t ing i s that I c a l l e d them?
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Q .
A .
I don ' t know who
Should have pul l ed t he phone records .
I --
9 Q . That wasn ' t my que s t ion . My que s t i on wa s do you have
1 0 know l edge o f the g i r l s ca l l ing me a ft e r - - you know , a f t e r
1 1 Septembe r 2 4 t h , o r actua l l y the - - and a ft e r the r e s t r a ining
1 2 order was i n p l ace ?
1 3 A . Penn y Hanco c k h a s t o l d me i n t he s e s s ions w i t h t he
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g i r l s that t h e y h ave continued to cont act you .
who phoned who .
Q . O ka y .
I don ' t know
A . Did I witne s s t hem ma king a phone c a l l , n o . Did I s hut
my phone o f f and get a cel l phone and l e ave it in my pocket
so that behavi or couldn ' t happen a ft e r t he 3 0 t h , ye s .
Q . Another que s t i on i s do you have knowledge o f the g i rl s ,
2 1 Ju l i a and Laur a , our daughte r s , t e l l ing Penny Hanc o c k the
2 2 t ruth about what occurred i n E laine Van Beveren ' s o f f i c e on
2 3 September 2 3 rd , 2 0 0 8 ?
2 4 A . As E l a i ne h a s s t a t e d , t he g i r l s go into her o f f i ce
2 5 without me . I w a i t in t he w a i t i ng room . Maybe the l a s t
2 6 s o I don ' t know what they have t o l d he r , j u s t what Penny has
2 7 t o ld me they h ave s a i d a s far a s - - s o I don ' t know what
2 8 their di s cu s s i on s w i t h Penny Hancoc k a re .
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Q . And a r e you aware o f a phone ca l l I made t o Penny
Hancoc k s t a t ing t o -- on a me s s age I l e ft he r , s t a t ing t hat
the g i r l s c a l led me and t o ld me t ha t they had t o l d h e r that
4 I wa s - - that Jul ia was a s s au l t ed by - - Jul i a w a s a t t ac ked
5 by E laine Van Beveren and I was att a c ked by - - and she
6 pushed daddy and then t ried t o grab Laura , and t h e y t o l d
7 Penny Hanco c k that , and are you awa re o f that at a l l ,
8 beca u s e I know the g i r l s are ve ry hone s t ?
9 MR . SOKOL : There i s an awful lot o f t e s t imony
1 0 going o n here .
1 1 THE WITNE S S : I know you cont acted Penny Hancock
1 2 a ft e r t he r e s t r a i ning o rde r h a s been i n e f fect , maybe a
1 3 month o r two b e f o re , because she ca l led me , she ca l l ed
1 4 E l aine Van Beveren , and s he c a l led Richard S o ko l ' s o f f i ce
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too , and your att orney a t the t ime , who I b e l i eve wa s
Mr . Bowman .
Q .
A .
THE RES PONDENT :
Y e s .
To - - becau s e she - - Penny Hancock was a l a rmed t ha t you
2 0 we re not to h ave contact with h e r o f fi ce and you had done
2 1 s o , and you had s a i d that your attorney Bowman had t o l d you
2 2 t o do that . And I know Mr . B owman s ince s ent a l e t t e r to
2 3 Ms . Van Beve ren and M r . S o ko l s t a t ing that you - - that he
2 4 didn ' t t e l l you t o ca l l , because he wa s awa re o f the orders
2 5 where no one - - you were not t o contact her i n the p revious
2 6 court o rde r s . S o , yeah , I know you cal led h e r a ft e r you
2 7 were not to .
2 8 THE RES PONDENT : Your Hono r , I ' m t r ying t o f i gure
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out where i t s a y s i n any court orde r s that I ' m not a l l owed
to h ave any cont act with M s . Hanco c k , and j u s t
T H E COURT : Not my i s sue .
THE RES PONDENT : - - ma ke a s t a t ement .
THE COURT : Not an i s sue toda y , s o don ' t worry
about i t .
THE RES PONDENT : Okay .
THE COURT : And by that I ' m not t e l l ing you feel
free t o contact M s . Hanco c k .
THE RES PONDENT : No , I unde r s t and . I have no
purp o s e to do i t . I mean , you know , I re l i sh the fact t hat
my daught e r s a re having t he rapy because they de f i n i t e l y need
it as a r e s u l t of what t he s i tuat ion has been .
Q . S o b a s i c a l l y who t o l d you that - - becau s e I know i t was
stated i n Court b y Mr . S o ko l , I t h i n k e i ther on March 9 t h or
prior to that , that I threatened Ms . Hancoc k and wha t eve r ,
and that I made s ome a l l egat i on s o r whatever . I mean , who
t o ld you that or did you hear the me s s age , the t ap e me s s age ,
or the e l ectronic me s s age , that I l e ft on M s . Hancoc k ' s - -
A . Penny c a l led me direct l y .
Q . Um-hmm .
A . I a l s o heard from Richard S o ko l ' s o f f i ce t hat you had
contacted her .
Q . Could i t have been me r e l y that I l e ft a me s s a ge to let
her know that what happene d , that the g i r l s had ca l led me
and t o l d me that they t o l d - - when we met with Penny Hancock
we told her what happened and Penny Hancock s t ated s omething
that I don ' t unde r s tand why t h i s is going on , i t s ounds l i ke