- \ Our next speaker is of thqhrysler Motor performancafrom -an OEM ---- G p o r a t h who will Frank received his bachelor of science and chemistry from Michigan Technological University out in Michigan. He received his master's in management from Central Michigan University. His career experience includes fifteen years with the Ford Motor Company in various material engineering positions. Including over eight years with engine coolant responsibility. He spent five years with American Motors in the fuels and lubricants departments, again responsible for coolant performance requirements. He is now with Chrysler Motors in the fuels and lubricants group and again responsible for coolant p&fonnance requirements. Frank is a member of ASTM Committee D15 on engine coolants, Committee D2 on petroleum products and he is the chairman of the engine coolant subcommittee.
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Recycling of Engine Coolant - Pollution Prevention …infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/30/29047.pdflubricants departments, again responsible for coolant performance requirements. He is now
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Transcript
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Our next speaker is of thqhrysler Motor
performancafrom -an OEM ----
G p o r a t h who will
Frank received his bachelor of science and chemistry from
Michigan Technological University out in Michigan. He received
his master's in management from Central Michigan University.
His career experience includes fifteen years with the Ford
Motor Company in various material engineering positions.
Including over eight years with engine coolant responsibility.
He spent five years with American Motors in the fuels and
lubricants departments, again responsible for coolant
performance requirements.
He is now with Chrysler Motors in the fuels and lubricants
group and again responsible for coolant p&fonnance
requirements.
Frank is a member of ASTM Committee D15 on engine
coolants, Committee D2 on petroleum products and he is the
chairman of the engine coolant subcommittee.
-. With that I would like to present Frank Duffy.
“We provide them with this information in the owner’s
manual: Selection of coolant - use only a high quality ethylene glycol base antifreeze coolant with a silicate
inhibitor, such as Mopar, Prestone 11, Peak, or antifreeze
containing the aluguard 340-2 inhibitor system. Failure to use
proper antifreeze could cause radiator plugging and engine
overheating.
alone, or alcohol based antifreeze products.
Do not mix antifreeze brands or use plain water
It has been recognized from the start that some sort of
general corrosion protection is needed. So, we have the
corrosion test in glassware, the simulated service test, which
basically screen out coolants that are not suitable for further
evaluation. Just Dassina a alassware tesi doesn‘t mean that it
will Drovi.de the Drotection to the enaine and the coolinq
svstem that we need.
The subject of this meeting is the recycling of engine
coolant.
for the conservation of resources.
well. Merelv removinq the susDended matter from the liauid bv
filtration and addina a suDplementa1 additive that may not be
balanced to the formulation beins recvcled. will not
necessarily provide the formulation needed to Drotect all
aspects of a modern coolina system. Also, the dissolved
solids, are not removed by filtration. If they were it would
be very easy to get rid of the l ab . Replacing the coolant at
Recycling of engine coolant presents an opportunity
acetates, formates and everythins else we see in a coolant that
were orisinally put into the coolant or that have senerated in
the lif e of the,cooiant. These salts do not iust disaDDear.
A s an example, a balanced level of nitrite in the truck
coolant that seems effective in preventing cavitation, in wet
sleeve liners, but allow the concentration of nitrite to get a
little t o o high say through coolant recycling, or more nitrite
..
a d d i t i o n w i t h o u t f irst removing t h e n i t r i t e t h a t w a s present i n
t h e f irst place, t h e n you can s a y goodbye t o a l l t h e so lde r i n
t h e r a d i a t o r s .
E x c e s s i v e t o t a l s o l i d s c a u s e s c a l i n g i n t h e e n g i n e ,
d e t e r i o r a t i o n and a b r a s i o n of t h e water pump s e a l s and u p s e t o f
t h e i o n i c s t r e n g t h o r e lectr ical b a l a n c e of t h e c o o l a n t t h a t is
e s s e n t i a l t o its per formance , t h a t is t h e d r i v i n g force of t h e
c h e m i s t r y , t h a t is supposed t o occur between metals i n t h e
c o o l i n g sys t em and t h e v a r i o u s c o r r o s i o n i n h i b i t o r s t h a t are
p r e s e n t .
YOU have created a c o n d i t i o n , w h e r e i n c o r r o s i o n c a n p r o c e e d
w i t h o u t effect ive b l o c k i n g c h e m i s t r y even though t h e r e a r e
I f you r e t a r d o r p r e v e n t t h e i r a b i l i t y t o i n t e r a c t ,
i n h i b i t o r s t h e r e . It
Mr. Dick Hercamp, consultant with the Fleet Guard
Corporations. He will present performance requirements for
heavy duty truck coolants. Dick received his bachelor's of
science in chemical engineering from Predue in 1957. He
graduated with distinction. He received his master's of
science in engineering from Predue in 1969, and after 21 1/2
years of service with Cummins Engines, he retired in November
1, 1987. Dick is recognized throughout North America as an
expert in coolants, lubricants and sealing materials for
internal combustion engines.
Manufacturer's Cooling Subcommittee, he has been a leader in
developing coolants fo r heavy duty engines. He is a registered
professional engineer.
Honorary Engineering Fraternity, the Society of Automotive
Engineers and the American Society f o r Testing and Materials.
He has authored and co-authored many technical papers in the
areas of coolants, lubricants, non-metallic materials f o r heavy
duty diesel engines. I'd like to present Dick Hercamp.
As chairman of the Engine
Dick is a member d'f Phi Beta Phi
"And finallv, do not trv to extend the use of the sDent
coolant bevond the encrine manufacturers recommendation, and
here E.M.A. also says u v e a r s max, by either on board or off
board filtratinq and F.C.A. addition."
Mr. Roy Beal of Amalgamated Technology. Roy is going to
present the subject of ASTM coolant specifications. Roy got
h i s bachelor's degree in metallurgy at the University of
Sheffield in England. He worked at G K N , a large engineering
company in automotive components. He immigrated to the U.S. in
1968, and worked for the Illinois Institute of Technology
Research Institute. There he became assistant director in the
metals division, and following that he formed his own company,
Amalgamated Technologies in 1981. He is the president of the
company and has been involved with automotive radiators and
coolants for the past 20 years. At his laboratory, he carries
out major development programs and testing work. Roy has been
chairman of ASTM Engine Coolant Committee D15 for the past 4
years.
Soldering Committee. He has authored many papers and books on
metal technology. I'd like to present Roy Beal.
He is also Chairman of the American Welding Institute
"Right now, just to show that there are currently more
than 20 ASTM standards available.
The Engine Coolant Committee has several subcommittees
that cover physical and chemical requirements of coolants and
also cover the applications and performance side of the
material. These range from the glassware test, that people
have extensively covered in looking at recycling and the
glassware test is a really important screening test. In the
form of screening tests, it's an important part of the road
toward good coolant. It is not of itself the end of the road.
S O , at first cut try at looking at how good a product is or how
good your doing in developing something, the glassware test is
very valuable. However, it should never be considered a total
acceptance criterion.
The engine coolant committee in more kecent years, g o t
involved with the transport deposition problem, which was
talked about, which caused some consternation confirmation,
which is now being resolved, this has resulted in the ASTM test
called the Hot Surface Test D4340, which is another part of the
arsenal, no one talked this morning about this particular test
at all, I'm referring to the recycling group. I don't know
whether they subjected recycled Droducts to this Darticular
test, but if they haven't it's imDortant they do so because it
is a very imDortant way to define whether YOU are qoincr to qet
heavv aluminum corrosion or whether your Droduct has a chance
of livina in that svstem without literally dissolvins the
enqine.
Think of the solution as an electrolyte. It is salts in a
5 0 / 5 0 ethylene, glycol water solution. What happens from our
schoolboy physics days, ok lets make a batch of salt, we create
an electrolyte. If we put more salt in the solution, you can
get an even better electrolyte. Put more salt on that, and its
going to get better yet.
system, really is to have the minimum amount of salts in there
to do the maximum amount of protection. Anybody in the
corrosion business knows this very well.
in addina and addina and addincr, and Mr. Hercamp made the
comment this morning about adding salts over a period of time.
So, the best way to protect the
S o there is a danqer
S O , good engine coolant manufacture requires a lot of work both
physical and metallurgical in understanding of electro
chemistry, corrosion and understanding that we want a minimum
of salts in there.
There is a big danger and that danger has to be recognized
by them and the potential users. Coolant cannot last forever.
Dale McKenzie made the comment this mornins what happens when
you brinu it back aaain and aaain. you can see where YOU can
set into trouble. So in closing, the thing to say is that ASTM
as an organization has a wide number of standards that you can
utilize. Do your homework and be careful and we'll all drive
very well. Thank you.tt
our next speaker owned and operated a general repair
service station for four years. This next point he asked me to
recite, I hope, I think he's just kidding, but 1'11 go through
with it, Steve taught high school and college classes for t e n
years, developed brain damage and entered the world of
publishing. He doesn't look damaged to me, I think he's
putting us on. He currently works as managing editor of
Radiator ReDorter and contributing editor to two other long-
time publications concerning automotive fleets. He is also
currently an ASTM Committee D15 member on coolant, a member of
the Vehicular Heat Exchange and Heat Transfer Systems, SAE
Committee. I'd like to present Steve Basil.
O u r n e x t s p e a k e r owned and o p e r a t e d a g e n e r a l repa. i r
se rv ice s t a t i o n f o r f o u r y e a r s .
r e c i t e , I h o p e , I t h i n k h e ' s j u s t k i d d i n g , b u t 1/11 go t h r o u g h
w i t h i t , s t e v e t a u g h t h i g h s c h o o l and c o l l e g e c l a s s e s for t e n
y e a r s , d e v e l o p e d b r a i n damage and e n t e r e d t h e world o f
p u b l i s h i n g . He d o e s n ' t l o o k damaged t o me, I t h i n k h e ' s
p u t t i n g u s o n . H e c u r r e n t l y works a s managing e d i t o r o f
R a d i a t o r Reporter a n d c o n t r i b u t i n g e d i t o r t o two o t h e r l o n g -
t i m e p u b l i c a t i o n s c o n c e r n i n g a u t o m o t i v e f l e e t s .
c u r r e n t l y a n ASTM Committee D 1 5 member on c o o l a n t , a member o f
T h i s n e x t p o i n t h e a s k e d me t o
He is a l s o
t h e V e h i c u l a r Heat Exchange a n d Heat T r a n s f e r Sys t ems , SAE
c o m m i t t e e . I ' d l i k e t o p r e s e n t S t e v e B a s i l .
p+rQe r r F i r s t o p t i o n , i n terms of y o u r s h o p , is r e c y c l i n g i n y o u r
<hop. Now, we've tes ted t h r e e r e c y c l i n g g y s t e m s t o da t e . W e c z
have gone o n - s i t e collected s a m p l e s , t a l k e d t o t h e d e v e l o p e r s ,
s e n t t h o s e coo lan t s a m p l e s s e n t t o i n d e p e n d e n t l a b o r a t o r i e s \ - across t h e Un i t ed S t a t e s and a l l t h e resul ts i n d i c a t e t h a t none
of t h e s e r e c y c l e r s work a t this time. I d o b e l i e v e , however a t
- - -----
- t h i s time, if you d e c i d e t o go a h e a d and ge t t h e r e c y c l i n g
machine , t h a t you k e e p t h e manufac tu re r s claims, w a r r a n t i e s ,
etc. s o t h a t if a n y t h i n g does come b a c k , you c a n p l a y t h e same
games t h a t i n s u r a n c e compan ies are now p l a y i n g w i t h t h e i r
c l i en t s . I n s u r a n c e compan ies when t h e f e d e r a l government f i r s t
came o u t , i n s t e a d o f f i n i n g t h e i n s u r a n c e compan ies c l ients for
p o l l u t i n g , t h e i n s u r a n c e compan ies w e n t t o b a t f o r t h e i r
c l i e n t s . The i n s u r a n c e compan ies a r e f i n d i n g o u t t h a t t h e y
/
have to pay f o r what their clients do. If what their clients do
is illegal. so guess who the insurance companies line up with
now, the environmentalists.
keep those claims, and if the customer does comes back to you,
SO I would suggest to you that you
- _/-
ycI I Y I ~ C O r J t h a t y o u pretend your insurance company and you go with your
customer to court and be his witness.
I'd like to ask Frank Duffy to make a comment, and I'd
like to ask the gentlembn from Ford Motor Company, the
materials engineer. Are there standards that you have that you
require the coolant to be replaced? we' We have standards f o r @F coolant t o be replaced at regular intervals, 36,000 miles/two
years. '7
)'The standards we have for engine coolant are designed for
two purposes . One, original fill, and two, for our own in-
house brands. They happen to be the same :tandard. You get OE
quality if you buy Mopar and from my introduction, you know I
worked for Ford, you buy Motorcraft y o u q h 9 r - something that < --
meets the Ford standard. In terms of what goes in, basically, - - --_-__ - - - - _ we are willing to live with something that meets all the
requirements of ASTM D3306. This includes t h e pump cavitation
test, this includes the hot surface test, in addition t o the
- -. _.- - - - -- --- - --- -- ___ . -. . _-__..
other data we saw today, I don't have the stuff memorized, I'd
have to look it up, I think there are a couple of other
performance prospects to this standard. If it meets that, then ,
f l - . (
its acceptable.
now with engine oil.
on engine oil which says if the oil meets the accepted industry
W h n ou get into the same issue of recycling
And we have an official published policy )i.
s t a n d a r d s , which a t t h i s t i m e is A P I C a t e g o r y S G , t h e n it is
a c c e p t a b l e .
how do d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t e a c h b a t c h o f r e c y c l e d m a t e r i n
&onforming t o t h e s t a n d a r d s L e s p e c i a l l y i f your g o i n g d o i t on
a v e h i c l e by v e h i c l e b a s i s . T h i s g e t s t o be a major question.
Can t h e s u p p l i e r of t h e new i n h i b i t o r p a c k a g e g u a r a n t e e i t ' s
You h a v e t o l i v e w i t h
The i s s u e g e t s t o be , w i t h e n g i n e o i l o r c o o l a n t , - ---_ . - _.
/ - -- - - -_-- - -
- . _- - - - - _ _
- --- - --- --
t o meet t h e s t a n d a r d s , o r w h a t .
t h e f ac t t h a t most t h e c o o l a n t s o u t there are b e i n g f o r m u l a t e d
t o ~ 3 3 0 6 , o r bet ter , most of it is f o r m u l a t e d t o c o n f o r m t o t h e
s t a t e r e q u i r e m e n t s , which were a d o p t e d D3306. So w e h a v e t o
l i v e w i t h t h a t f a c t .
work ing t o .
T h a t ' s t h e o n l y s t a n d a r d t h a t w e a re 11
I ' d l i k e D r . McKensie t o comment on t h a t f rom t h e
s t a n d p o i n t of a f t e r m a r k e t a n t i f r e e z e , what a r e h i s s t a n d a r d s .
our s tandards a re ASTM, I s u p p o s e we're t a l k i n g a b o u t SAE
a s w e l l as a l l of t h e e n g i n e m a n u f a c t u r e r s a n d car company's
s t a n d a r d s . I t h i n k i t ' s i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h i s piece of r e c y c l e
equipment n o t o n l y t h e e q u i p m e n t , n o t o n l y the c h e m i c a l s y o u r -
p u t t i n g i n , w i l l r e p e a t e d l y r e l i a b l y a n d r e p r o d u c t i v e l y meet -_ -- ~ --
the D3306 a n t i f r e e z e standards, regardless of t h e c r u d t h a t is
coming o u t of t h e v e h i c l e y o u ' r e g o i n g t o t r e a t .
i d e a l c a s e , where y o u ' r e t a k i n g t h e c a r 10 ,000 miles. When I
read p a t e n t s by one of t h e s e r e c y c l e r s t h a t s a y s t h e f o l l o w i n g :
r -- Not some - .-c
c u t t h e l i n e on t h e r a d i a t o r h o s e a n d p u t a tee i n it. Have
you e v e r t r i e d t o f i n d t h e r a d i a t o r h o s e on one of t h o s e
J a p a n e s e cars o r t h e Grand A m ' s , y o u ' l l n e v e r even f i n d t h e
h o s e s . o.K., b u t a f t e r you g e t t h e h o s e s , i t s a y s # 2 , you p u t
a flush in. And you r e c y c l e t h i s for 1 0 m i n u t e s o r u n t i l t h e
t h e r m o s t a t o p e n s . N o w you pump t h i s o u t i n t o my r e se rvo i r and
f i l t e r it a n d I add t h e i n h i b i t o r t o i t . Notice t h e f l u s h is i n
there , 0.K. And I add t h e i n h i b i t o r t o i t and I f i l t e r it and
p u t it b a c k i n t h e e n g i n e , and by God, t h a t ' s a s good as new.
I A u e s t i o n t h a t , a n d I q u e s t i o n tha- would r e p r o d u c i b l y
b e a D3306 a n t i f r e e z e r e g a r d l e s s of what you s t a r t e d w i t h .
I 7.
L ' -- --.-- - ._
\ c- -- ----__
One l a s t q u e s t i o n t h e gen t l eman i n the green s h i r t , ' ! -
i
p l e a s e .
? 'One l a s t q u e s t i o n and I ' l l make it a simple q u e s t i o n of
everybody i n t h e p a n e l . From t h e i n f o r m a t i o n we 've heard today
o n t h e t h r e e r e c y c l i n g mach ines , I would l i k e e v e r y b o d y o n t h e
p a n e l i n a s i m p l e y e s o r no a n s w e r .
t h a t t h e r e c y c l i n g of t h e a n t i f r e e z e w i t h a n y of - these t h r e e Q- . --. -. p r o d u c t s t h a t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t e d a t t h e c o n f e r e n c e t o d a y do
t h e y fee l t h a t t h e y will meet t h e ASTM S t a n d a r d of t h e new
a n t i f r e e z e t h a t is requ i r ed by t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r s .
t h e y meet t h e s tandards o f t h e OE m a n u f a c t u r e r s .
D o they honestly b e l i e v e -- . - _ _ ----
-.---
- _ -. - -- -
--- - Do the) ; f e e l
J u s t a y e s o r - _- --- - . -- ____.
n o o n e b y o n e r i g h t down t h e p a n e l . Gent lemen, a r e you going
t o a c c e p t t h e c h a l l e n g e . I '
Answer :
S t e v e Bas i l : "From t h e tests t h a t I hau.e r e c e i v e d so f a r .
The t es t ind ica t e s t h a t t h e mach ine ry d o e s n o t
work.
F rank Duffy: "From t h e da t a I h a v e seeE, n~ f don't b e l i e v e
t h e y work.
Dale McKensie: "Same answer f o r m e . "
R i c h a r d I'For heavy d u t y , t h e answer is no . I c a n ' t Hercamp:
Roy Beal:
speak for t h e automobile.Ii
"1 h a v e a g e t o u T c l a u s e , a s a t e s t h o u s e I ' d be