NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 1 of 3 Fdr- 12-18-01 Bill Gertz-Washington Times Interview of Cheney 456

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V

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THE WHITE HOUSEOffice of THE VICE PRESIDENT

Internal Transcript December 18, 2001

INTERVIEW OF THE VICE PRESIDENTBY

BILL GERTZ, THE WASHINGTON TIMES

1:34 EST

Q The big story today is prisoners. Have you got --THE VICE PRESIDENT: Let's talk about what we're doing

here, first. You're doing, what, a story for immediate --like, tomorrow?Q Yes.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Okay. What are the ground rules?Q On the record, unless you have something you'd

want to share on background or otherwise.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Fair enough.Q Okay.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Fire away.Q I guess you had a meeting today, you've been

meeting regularly with the NSC. What can you tell us aboutthe initial indications from some of these prisoners? Iunderstand that there are three fairly high-ranking peoplein custody. Can you give us some inkling into what they'vebeen telling their de-briefers?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I can't.Q Nothing at all?THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, really, I have not beenbriefed or gotten filled in on the exact content of thosede-briefings.

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Q Okay. I guess more prisoners are on the way. Itlooks as though al Qaeda in Afghanistan has been broken; isthat your assessment?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it has. Clearly, we'vetaken away from them the base, their training facilities,sort of the sanctuary they enjoyed in Afghanistan from whichthey've operated for the last several years; and killed someof the leadership and driven a lot of them, obviously, intoflight or into hiding. So we've had a significant impact.I would guess that they probably don't have a lot ofnew recruits for al Qaeda. But, yes, I think we've had adevastating impact on al Qaeda in Afghanistan. But there'sstill, you know, a lot out there to do. There is still workto be done in Afghanistan. I would surely love to get ourhands on bin Laden, and we will, sooner or later. And thereare still, I'm sure, people running around the mountainsover there that we'd like to wrap up. So that effort willcontinue.But we don't know how al Qaeda is going to function andhow it will work once you sort of chop off a head, how willthose cells out around the world function and will they beable to function. My guess is they probably will, so we'vegot to go wrap them up, too.Q And what is the latest on bin Laden? Obviously,the hunt is on for him. Do you think he's in Afghanistan?There was one foreign press report that he may have actuallybeen not in Pakistan, but in Iran, actually.THE VICE PRESIDENT: I hadn't heard Iran. Best guess

is Afghanistan or Pakistan, but at this stage I can't be anymore precise than thai.Q And how is the hunt going? I mean, are westepping up efforts to go after him at this point?THE VICE PRESIDENT: We've had major efforts underwayand those continue. It shifted a little bit, of course --for a long time there the air campaign was a significantfactor. But now that the Alliance folks have pretty welloccupied the Tora Bora region and it's under our directcontrol, now we've got U.S. forces working at it as well,too.Q About a month ago you said on "60 Minutes," wecan't wrap this up unless we do get bin Laden. Is thatstill the case? Do you still feel that that's --THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think he's got tobe a prime target because he's the head of al Qaeda and

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THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, we -- I don't ordinarilyelaborate on what the President says. I think what he says,he speaks for himself.

What we have said and what I have said, as well as thePresident, our concern about Iraq is based on the fact thatthey have provided sanctuary to terrorists in the past --Abu Nidal, for example, for years worked out of Baghdad.Second, that they have had -- that they do possess weaponsof mass destruction, certainly biological and chemicalagents. Third, that they have used these in the pastagainst both the Iranians and the Kurds. And, fourth,they've clearly continued to make major efforts to acquirenew weapons of mass destruction, including possibly nuclearweapons.

Now, given all of that and given Saddam Hussein's trackrecord in the world, we obviously want to keep in mind thethreat that he may represent to the United States and to ourfriends in the region.

Q And let's shift to the ABM treaty. The withdrawaldidn't seem to create as much stir as some of the ABM treatyproponents in this country would like to think --specifically, Russia didn't mind, the Chinese reaction hasbeen muted.

How do you see the U.S. withdrawal from the ABM treatyright now? Your reaction to that. And what about how thatwill affect our missile defense programs?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it was exactly the rightstep to take. I think it has been -- I think it hasoccurred the way it has because that's what the Presidentdecided to do. And he did a masterful job, in my mind, ofmanaging the process of working with our allies who had someconcerns; working with the Russians, where he's developed,obviously, a very strong relationship with President Putin;with the Chinese and all the players involved.

You know, nine or 10 months ago the cry wasunilateralism; that somehow we were moving here in a waythat went against that grain or was going to be opposed bythe civilized world. And, of course, what we've seen is itwas really all about leadership. And the President steppedout, he had a good, solid strategy he's executed, I thinkvery well. And so we find ourselves now here taking a majorstep towards being able to defend the United States againsta significant threat -- a step that eluded all of hispredecessors. So I think it's a major achievement for hisadministration.

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And that fact that there has not been a loud reactionto it demonstrates the skill with which the whole enterprisewas undertaken.Q Will this result in a different approach tomissile defense?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think what it will do is it willallow us to have a very robust research and developmentprogram. Instead of having every possible test fly-speckedby the attorneys to see whether or not it was in complianceor violated the ABM treaty, we can sit down and say, look,here's the problem, how do we solve it, how do we marshalour technological capabilities to deal with this.And I think what we'll find is that when we unleash ourcreative types, that we'll be able to come up with effectivedefenses against ballistic missiles.Q And possibly even some space-based things, like

the space-based laser?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I wouldn't want to speculate onthe particular form. Maybe Rumsfeld would be a bettersource for you on that.Q The other issue that has come up, on Sunday,Leader Daschle was asked about hearings on the intelligencefailure. He said that they're looking at having thesehearings in January and that the key there would be to lookat what happened and to see how to prevent this in thefuture.In particular, one of our intelligence agencies wasformed with a specific mandate to prevent a Pearl Harborattack. And I think we've kind of had that. Can youaddress that issue with the understanding --THE VICE PRESIDENT: What agency are you talking about?Q Well, the CIA was formed. And do we need to lookclosely at this? I know that there may be other priorities,but obviously the Congress is going to take a look at this.What's your view about whether or not we could have had somewarning on this and whether or not this could have been

prevented? September llth, that is.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I guess a couple of points.I think there may be lessons learned from reviewing what weknew and how we collected and analyzed information leadingup to 9/11. I don't, in principle, have any quarrel withthe notion of careful, analytical and balanced look at howthe intelligence community performed prior to 9/11.

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I would emphasize, I guess, that I think we need toavoid recriminations and a witch hunt here. The fact of thematter is we're in the midst of a major conflict, in termsof the war on terrorism. And our intelligence agencies --both foreign and domestic -- have a major role to play indefending us against further attacks and in helping usprosecute the war.And if an inquiry as to the events of 9/11 were to getout of hand and become some kind of a political witch hunt,that would be extraordinarily unfortunate, because it wouldclearly inhibit the ability of the agencies to do the jobthat they're going to have to do here and now and in the

future for us.So it needs to be positive and constructive, not aneffort to tear down some agencies or to malign thereputations of individuals who are doing a superb job rightnow in the war on terrorism.Q Now, on the issue of -- just to follow that up alittle bit. But that really doesn't -- I mean, don't youthink we need to fix the problem so that we don't get thiskind of strategic surprise again? Or is that impossible todo?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I guess the question is what yourexpectations are with respect to our ability to be able todefend against an attack. And my view is that you cannot --probably cannot construct a perfect defense. You do all youcan, in terms of trying to penetrate the organizations ofthe terrorist, in terms of trying to harden the target here

at home.But the ultimate defense here, the only thing thatguarantees your security is to destroy your enemy. So ourcapacity to avoid future attacks is partly a function ofgood intelligence. But it's also going to be very muchrelated to how successful we are at going out and destroyingthe terrorist organization. A good offense is the bestdefense here.So I think we need to have the right kind ofexpectations about what can be achieved on defense. Youknow, if you're 99 percent successful, that's pretty good inmost businesses. But if you're up against a terrorist andthey're going to launch a major strike and get through onepercent of the time, that's unacceptable. As I say, theonly real option here is not to expect -- not to haveunrealistic expectations about what you can do on defense,but rather to go out and eliminate the terrorists,themselves.

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Q Okay. A couple more questions to finish up here.We reported last week that the American Taliban, JohnWalker, had provided some indication that there might beadditional attacks. He even told his de-briefers that itcould involve BW attack. Can you confirm that? And are yougetting good information from people that we've had, likeWalker?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We, clearly, are getting someinformation from these folks. But the question of how goodit is and whether or not it's anything other than sort ofcampfire gossip from low-level al Qaeda members is hard tosay at this point. I think you have to ask the questionwhat, why would Walker and someone in his position have in-depth information about the plans of Osama bin Laden if, infact, their operations are as tightly held as 9/11 was --would not ordinarily expect somebody in Walker's position tohave advance knowledge of what was going on there. You'vegot to look at it -- I think, take it with a grain of salt.Q Any idea what's going to happen to him, as far as

prosecution or --THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't.Q And I noticed that the Attorney General decidednot to go ahead with a military tribunal for this Moussaoui

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The President decided that. ThePresident makes those decisions.

Q Okay. All right. And was there thought given toputting him before a military tribunal,.and why wasn't it --why wasn't it done?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the Presidentdecided as he indicated when we put together the tribunalwe made it clear that the President was the only one whocould move somebody out of the normal, sort of, criminaljustice system over to be handled by a military tribunal.The decision here, clearly, was to not move Moussaouiover to the military tribunal but, rather, to handle himthrough the criminal justice system. And I think that'sprimarily based on an assessment of the case againstMoussaoui. And I think can be handled through the normalcriminal justice system without compromising sources ormethods and intelligence and that there's a good, strong

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Q And how about some of these al Qaeda that we'verecently captured? Any decisions yet on whether to use thetribunals for them?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Not that I'm aware of. Clearly,there are some perspective candidates there. But, again,the President has got to make those calls. He's the onlyone who can decide if somebody goes before a militarytribunal.

Q Okay. Last question is for my friend, BillSammon. He wanted to see if you had any view on the EugeneScalia nomination and whether this might be some type ofDemocratic retribution for the elections, his father's votein the disputed election last year?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm reluctant to impugn themotives of my colleagues in the Senate. (Laughter.)

But the fact of the matter is that Mr. Scalia is anenormously talented and capable attorney. He'd make a greatSolicitor of the Labor Department. It looks like he has amajority of the Senate behind him. So you have to ask thequestion, if that's the case, why won't the DemocraticLeader allow the matter to come to the floor for a vote?And what's his motive for holding him out? And I have notheard any credible explanation, at this point, from SenatorDaschle as to why he continues to block Mr. Scalia'sconfirmation.

I've got to run, Bill.Q Okay. One quick one. Would there be possible

interim appointments here?THE VICE PRESIDENT: I really can't give you anything

on that. That would be speculation. But I don't think thePresident has made any of those decisions yet.

Q Okay. I appreciate your time.THE VICE PRESIDENT: One other thing, off the record,

at this point. I appreciated your cooperation the other dayon that story that you guys decided to hold for now.

Q Okay.THE VICE PRESIDENT: Some of these things I've

watched you over the years, and you obviously drive us nutsfrom time to time because you get great sources. Butoccasionally, obviously, it creates a huge problem and thisis one of those where it was very helpful and statesmanlikeof you guys to withhold.

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Q Okay. I hope you keep an eye on those things.(Laughter.)THE VICE PRESIDENT: I will.

Q Thank you.END 1:55 P.M.

EST

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NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 1 of 3 Fdr- 12-18-01 Bill Gertz-Washington Times Interview of Cheney 456

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