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Dr. Clotaire RapailleFounder and CEO of Archetype Discoveries
WorldwideInterviewed by Fernando Luzio
To celebrate the first birthday of our Program, we went to New
York especially to interview Dr. Rapaille, the founder, CEO and
chairman of Archetype Disco-veries Worldwide.
We have had the opportunity to work with Dr. Rapaille for two
years, breaking strategic Codes for companies in USA and
Brazil.
We are also celebrating the signature of a new agreement between
Luzio Strategy Consul-ting and Archetype Discoveries Worldwide, to
become again their affiliated firm in Brazil.
Dr. Gilbert Clotaire Rapaille is an internationally known expert
in Cultural Archetypes, Creativity and Innovation who founded the
Archetype Disco-veries Worldwide in 1976. Based in Tuxedo (NYC),
Archetype has
associated offices in Belgium, China, Turkey, England, Paris,
Mexico, Italy, India, South Korea, Southeast Asia, Russia and
Brazil.
Dr. Rapaille introduced a breakthrough concept to the corporate
world: the Culture Code, which has proved to be a powerful
methodology for more than half of the Fortune 500 companies, such
as Boeing, L 'Oreal , General Motors, AT&T, Citibank, Chrysler,
Col-gate, Fox, Kraft General Foods.
His unique approach to marketing and strategy combi-nes deep
psychoanalysis with a businessman's attention to prac-tical
concerns.
He has written more than 14 books. His last book The Culture
Code ranked 9th in the bestseller list of BusinessWeek
and has been translated into 12 languages in Korea alone, The
Culture Code has sold more than 250.000 copies. He is a very much
sought-after lecturer on Creativity, Communication and Cultural
literacy.
Dr. Rapaille's technique and work are a creative and innova-tive
extension of the work done by many great thinkers of the 20th
century, including Jung in Psychoanalysis; Laing in Psychi-atry;
Levi-Strauss and Ruth Benedict in Anthropology.
His world travels and exten-sive marketing research on products,
services and brand archetypes for corporations and governments,
have given him a fresh perspective on American and global
businesses and the interaction among the Americas,
This is not a traditional marketing
research or study. This is a different thing. What we do is
called a Discovery: we
discover something that is
there but we cannot see it.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
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Europe, the Middle East and Asia.For the past 30 years Dr.
Rapaille
has accumulated data, and developed a powerful process to
understand the golden question: WHY people do what they do?
Fernando Luzio. Dr. Rapaille, thank you very much for this
unique opportunity, and we are honored to interview you at your
home. We would like to start off this interview by asking you to
tell us briefly the story of your interesting life.
Dr. Rapaille. I started being very interested while working with
autistic children and studying the way they learn a language. Some
of them have a difficult time learning any kind of language, and I
was trying to understand what the mental process to learn a word
was; whatever the word.
I worked in Switzerland with children who were trying to learn
French, German, and Italian the three major languages. And at the
time I made a series of little discoveries on how the brain
functions. My discovery then was that each time you learn a word
there is a moment of imprint. There is a moment when you imprint
for the first time what is coffee, what is love, what is work, what
is anything. And when you imprint you create a mental reference
system that you should keep using for the rest of your life.
And while working with these children, I realized that when they
were from French, Swiss, Italian, or German origin, they were using
different languages of course but at the same time the whole
experience was different. Suddenly they were discovering a world
through the word.
And I can give you an example: the difference between the German
and the French regarding the sun and the moon very important
elements in a culture. In France, you learn that the sun is
masculine le soleil le soleil is the Sun King, fortune, it is
brilliant and powerful because in French culture man is supposed to
be like this: brilliant and dominant. The moon is feminine la lune
has a hidden power, but at night it goes up and down. When you are
a little child you learn about the sun and about the moon, but you
learn more than just the word sun and moon; you learn about all the
gender system, differences between men and women and all these
mental categories without even being aware of it.
Now, when you are German, there is a big issue, because the
opposite is true: for the German, the sun is a female sonne. And
they would say Of course,
why do you ask?It is obvious!. Woman is the one that shines, she
is warm and makes the children grow, so the sun is female. And the
moon is a man mond because German men are always into dark and deep
things, philosophy
So my discovery at the time was that we need to be careful,
because the translation of the word doesnt mean anything. If you
translate the word sun from French into German you may lose
significance because there is always a deeper and more powerful
meaning to the word.
Let me give you an example of a simple consequence of that. If
you want to sell shampoo in Germany and France, and you use the sun
as a reference, you trigger a completely different response in each
culture without being aware of it. That is what is very key
here.
I gave a conference at the University of Geneva, and one of my
students asked his father to come to my lecture, he was working for
Nestl and he said You know, what you discovered here the deep
meaning of the first imprint about the word might be very useful
for us because we want to sell instant coffee in Japan and we are
not very successful in trying to get them to switch from tea to
coffee which was obviously not the right strategy, so they made me
an offer I could not refuse and I went to Japan and discovered the
Japan Code for coffee. Then LOreal, associated with Nestl, and
started to expand around the world.
I was invited to teach in different business schools around the
world. I
published several books and that is how it went.
Fernando Luzio. Could you explain what the Culture Code is?
Dr. Rapaille. In every culture, the culture pre-organizes the
way you deal with something in that culture. My definition of
culture is: a survival kit inherited at birth in order to survive.
So, at a certain time in a certain environ-ment and geography and
so on, you need this knowledge in order to survive. It is
transmitted from one generation to the next and after a while, you
dont even question it anymore, it doesnt matter.
So the first time you learn about coffee, like for example in
Italy, its very different from the first time that you learn about
coffee in America. This is why in America you drink liters of
coffee everyday and survive, but if it was Italian brewed coffee I
would be dead at the end of the day. So there is a very strong
difference of the meaning of coffee in Italy and the meaning of
coffee in America.
There is a first imprint that is previously organized by the
culture, and when we did this work on coffee in America we
discovered that the first imprint is not TASTE, the first imprint
is the AROMA. For the American culture the smell of coffee is very
strong, it is unique and the first imprint of coffee happens when
you are two years old. The whole culture imprint is of mother
preparing breakfast in the kit- chen and the feelings evoked: I am
going to be fed, she loves me, I am home
Dr. Rapaille introduced a break-through concept to the corporate
world: the Culture Code, which has proved to be a powerful
methodology for more than half of the Fortune 500 companies.
His last book The Culture Code was ranked 9th in the bestseller
list of BusinessWeek and has been translated into 12 languages in
Korea alone, It has sold more than 250.000 copies.
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and I am safe all of these words are very powerful and very
positive. But this is the American culture Code for coffee, not
Italian or German.
As a strategy we decided that Folgers should own the aroma and
forget about the taste. Let the competitors deal with the taste,
because the Culture Code for coffee in America is AROMA, so then
everything should be on code which means that the package, the
design (we injected the aroma on top of it and when you open it,
shhhshssh, the aroma comes out in your face) and all the commercial
aspects should be on code with AROMA.
I told them I never want to see the brand Folgers associated
with somebody drinking coffee no way! And they were surprised But
we are selling coffee, and I said No, you are not selling coffee,
your are selling the AROMA. Let the others sell the taste..
So this is the definition: the Culture Code is a reference
system (like mother, breakfast, home, safeness and so on) imprinted
at a very early age through the energy of the emotion that is
associated with this reference system, and the Code is what
activates it. So the Code for coffee is AROMA and AROMA activates
all the reference system.
Fernando Luzio. And could you provide us an overview of the
Archetype Discovery process itself and its difference from a
traditional marketing research?
Dr. Rapaille. Sometimes its difficult to explain that this is
not a traditional marketing research or study. This is a different
thing. What we do is called a Discovery: we dis-cover something
that is there but we cannot see it and we are not familiar with
it.
And how do we do that? We follow the 3 Brains Principle: we have
3 brains. The first one is the Cortex; the second one is the
Limbic; and the third one is the Reptilian the very old part of the
brain. And my theory is that the Reptilian always wins, it doesnt
matter what you do, if you get the reptilian, boom!
The process is done with groups of people and in three hour
sessions, where we guide them back to the very first time in their
lives that they imprinted through emotion thats what we want to
discover. First, in order to do that, we have to eliminate the
Cortex at the first hour when we let them speak. We dont care about
what they speak of, because we dont believe in what people say.
This first hour is like a purge, a washing out session and when
they finish they are happy because they think they have made a
great contribution but we dont learn anything new, theres nothing
serious in here.
The second hour is more emotional within the Limbic where the
contradictions are and also the tensions. The best way for me to
explain this world of tension is through my work around the world
about mothers and how they relate to their children, how they feed
them and so on. Around the world in China, India, Italy, France,
Germany, and Brazil mothers tells me I want my children to grow and
I dont want them to grow; I want them to be independent and I dont
want them to be independent; Oh, they are so cute when they are
little. So there is this tension and every mother can feel that:
she wants her children to grow because this is a program and at the
same time she doesnt want them to leave.
When my clients say We want our customers to love our products,
I ask them Why? Do you want your customers to love your products
and never buy them, or do you want your customers to hate your
products and always buy them?. There is not an immediate
correlation. So the key element that we want to create with the
Code that we discovered is an intense relationship, because
love-hate sometimes is very powerful and creates long-term
relationships. At this second
hour people get confused, they dont know what they are doing
anymore, and this is good.
Then at the third hour, they lie down on the floor and we
explain that we want to recreate the same mental activity that they
have when they wake up in the morning. Why? Because when you wake
up in the morning, usually for 5 to 10 minutes, the Cortex is not
there yet it usually arises late for work in the morning so there
is no control, you are still in the connection between the
Reptilian and the Limbic and you can still remember your dreams.
But if you dont write them down or recall them right away, 5 to 10
minutes later they are gone. And this is the kind of running
activity that we want to recreate at the third hour, which is very
unique.
When people are there, lying down on the floor after a moment of
relaxation, things come up in their minds and they would tell me
Oh, its amazing, something came back that I forgot for 30-40 years
ago. After that, they write down their first stories, so the
document that we get is handwritten. Then we study the structure,
the pattern in all these stories. We look at the space in-between,
if you may.Lvi-Strauss, my professor, used to say that the mother
is not a woman, a mother is a space between a woman and a child so,
no children, no mother; no mother, no children. Its the space
in-between that you have to understand.
It is very interesting this notion of structure: music is not
made of notes; music is the space between the notes. You can play
different notes in a piano with your left or right hand, or in
different instruments, but the only thing that you must respect is
the space in-between and this is what we discovered: what is the
space in-between the different elements of those stories? What is
the space in-between that creates the unconscious reference system,
the unconscious melody that people use and activate when they think
about the brand, the product, a category, a country? This is
unconscious, so you have to find a process to reveal it, you cannot
see it right away.
There is a truth, a real thing and a very important part of this
methodology: it is anonymous. I have already done a lot of work on
subjects that are very taboo. My first work with P&G (Procter
& Gamble) was on toilet paper. Imagine that you are invited to
a focus group session with 20 strangers and for 2 hours you are
going to explain how you use toilet paper! You dont get much out of
that. People would say I want it soft, on sale, thank you very
much, can I go now?. But when I was doing this work, because of the
whole process involved, what we discovered was absolutely powerful
and very emotional.P&G was amazed: We never found anything like
that! after that I made more than 30 Code Discoveries for
P&G.
Fernando Luzio. We are fascinated with all the Codes you have
already broken; however two of them are very provocative and
insightful for individuals and companies. Can you share some of
your findings on the Codes of Beauty and Luxury?
Dr. Rapaille. I am going to tell you a bit more than what you
can find in my books, because I have already done more work on that
subject.
Beauty is a very Reptilian thing. We are programmed to find
beautiful what is useful for our Reptilian brain. So even when we
go into Music, Art, Opera and Painting there is always something
there that is very Reptilian.
And I want to give you an example:womens beauty. Some research
has been done by a couple from India on what is the most beautiful
shape of a womans body every culture is interested in that! They
studied the womans body in different cultures and centuries through
sculptures and paintings they went back to the Egyptians, Greeks,
Romans, etc.
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They put electrodes in every part of the body of a group of men
and showed them some pictures of women to find out which one would
make them excited. They didnt have to speak, so if the system makes
an IHH sound, it means they were excited; and if it makes an OHH
sound, it means they were not excited.
And what they found was a kind of unconscious and global
structure Code for Beauty. When a womans body is straight, it
sounds OHH, meaning that nobody is excited and as a trigger, as a
message for my Reptilian brain it doesnt tell me anything. But if
the body of a woman is like an hour-glass, it sounds IHH, and all
the men get excited. Why?
First of all, we are not so dumb after all because we are
programmed to find a woman that gives us more chance for our genes
to reproduce. When a woman has a straight body, we never even try
that woman, because it means we would be wasting our time. But when
a woman has an hour-glass body, the message is Wow! She is the
woman.
And they found another very interesting thing: the key trigger
is the relationship ratio between the waist and the hips, and it
has to be 0.7. So if the ratio is 0.7, it sounds IHH around the
world! Amazing!
And more: the women who have 0.7 ratio, have more children, live
longer and have less cancer. So we are not so dumb after all! Also
very interesting, is that it is not a question of how fat you are,
because you can be very fat but still have a ratio of 0.7 and it
will sound
IHH.It is not fat, it is fat distribution, it is a matter of
where do you put your fat.
Because of this discovery we can understand fashion: why the
Egyptians invented the corset 5.000 years ago? Because the corset
was meant to tighten, to make the waist smaller and to get 0.7
ratio. Why did the French invent these dresses with big volume?
Again, to create that dimension.
So it starts making sense, it is not just by chance, random or
accident that a thing like that happens. It happens because
unconsciously we have a perception of beauty that is very key.
There are a lot more elements for the Code of Beauty
Also, Luxury varies from one culture to another. For example, in
French culture Luxury should be useless; in American culture,
nothing should be useless. So in the United States, if you have a
scarf around your neck its because you are afraid to get a cold, so
this is not Luxury. But in France, if you put a scarf on your
shoulders and you dont need it because your shoulders are not going
to get a cold , that is useless, that is the beauty of elegance. If
you need it for some reason, its not elegant. The same works with
Luxury concerning food in France: you should not eat because you
need food. You eat for pleasure. You should not drink wine because
you are thirsty if you are thirsty, drink water. Wine is for the
pleasure.
American culture is very opposite. It has to have a purpose. The
notions here are very different. By the way, there are a lot of
similarities between Luxury in
France and in China. The Chinese aristocracy and the Chinese
Emperor have a sense of Beauty and they think it is very pure, not
a mundane purpose.
What we discovered recently for several clients is that there is
a global Code for Luxury, which is very interesting. And this Code
is one very simple word that leads us to understand Luxury
worldwide and that is the beauty of this work that we do. What is
this word? HAND. The future of Luxury is going to be HAND, which is
not made in France or made in China. It is made BY HAND, bespoke.
It is not even Luxury anymore but the passion of an artist, an
craftsman (artisan) that is going to do something by hand, very
carefully and tailor made.
Herms is a very good example of a company that is very
successful worldwide and they dont even use the word Luxury! I
spoke to them recently in Paris and they said We are not really
into Luxury, we are into crafts-manship., back to almost medieval
times where we have the craftsman who loves le travail, who has to
work very hard before he became a matre, a master in his art and
craftmanship. So, things done by hand: amazing!
The new Rolls Royce, for example: all the leather inside is done
by hand and very carefully, and, sous mesure, tailor made. A very
big issue. Some brands cannot do it completely, but they can offer
an element of that. The Mini Cooper, for example: you can choose
and pick up something special just for you, you can put a British
flag on the roof, for example.
The future of Luxury is going to be HAND, which is not made in
France or made in China. It is not even Luxury anymore but the
passion of an artist, an craftsman that is going to do something by
hand, very carefully and tailor made.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
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So this is the direction of Luxury. Mass production is not going
to be Luxury, no way. Only things done by hand and unique.
Ive just bought a Herms sofa in France and they told me You have
to pay upfront and there is a 6 months de lay. You have to wai t
for 6 months..Because it takes time to create Luxury. So once in a
while I can go and see the progress of my sofa: 3 people are
working hard on it, doing it by hand, they test a piece of leather,
try another it is an art! They are artists.
In French, craftsman (artisan) and artist are almost the same
word. I like it very much because it gives a lot of value to the
talent of some people and their passion, to the dedication and
commitment they have to do a good job. So I think that mass
production is not interesting anymore. On the other hand, the price
of mass production is going down all the time, while the price of
Luxury is going up without limits. Now you have a Bugatti car that
costs 2.5 million dollars, so where is the limit? This is very
special, very unique.
Fernando Luzio . Concerning individuals, can we be discovered?
Do I have a Personal Code? Do you know your Personal Code?
Dr. Rapaille. Oh yes, of course, this is fascinating because
when I worked with children, there was a very key element: at the
beginning, when babies are together and one baby cries, the others
start to cry because they dont see the difference between one baby
and the others. Then after a certain time there is a moment in the
childs evolution when he says No for the first time, and then he
says I, I want that, I dont want that.
This first discovery of your identity is quite amazing, so if
you have different brothers and sisters, or if you are alone, all
that system at a certain time creates your identity, and at that
moment you start to have the imprint of your Code. And after that,
there is repetition and reinforcement and then your environ-ment
and your parents reinforce your ideas, which can be negative, of
course in case of neurotic people: Hey, you will never be able to
do anything, you are a bad boy!. But, if you get reinforcement into
another direction, it is very interesting, and you start to be
confident.
So it takes time to discover your Personal Code, of course, but
it is very important to understand it, and if you know your Code
you might not make a mistake in choosing your job. You will find a
job that is on code with you. Maybe you choose the best place for
you to live in the world, and all these
should help to reinforce your own Code. The big problem for many
individuals is that they get confused, they want to do this and
that also, and the result of this confusion is procrastination they
dont do anything and they dont succeed.
Napoleon knew exactly what he was, of course that it could be
dangerous sometimes (laughs), but he knew his Code and people said
You are crazy, who do you think you are?!, Well, I am the Emperor.
And when he was imprisoned in his island by the British, one of the
big, big sufferings that he had at that time was that the British
refused to call him The Emperor.
So yes, it is very important to discover and know your Code and
then start managing your life in some ways to be on code with
it.
And your question about Do you know your Code?, yes, of course I
know my Code very much. I have several models in my life, and my
num-ber one model is Champollion. He was a young guy that went to
Egypt with Napoleon, and he did something that I do every day: he
looked at the hieroglyphs that had been there for 400 to 500 years
(I dont remember exactly) and nobody was able to understand what
was written there. He was the first one to be able to decode to
find the code, and then to start reading things that were there,
but nobody could see it. And that is my life: to look at a thing
that nobody can understand and decode it. And suddenly, wow,
everything makes sense.
My name is Clotaire and it is very similar to Voltaire, and
Voltaire for me is another model. What I like about him is his
ability to be a philosopher, an artist, a poet, a scientist and at
the same time a good businessman. He was a very good businessman!
So my Code is Voltaire with a little bit of Champollion and a
little bit of Alexis de Tocqueville and so on.
In a final word, my Code is FRENCH 18th CENTURY. I love
everything about the 18th century I dont like the way it ended
because the French Revolution was a disaster, it killed people for
no reason and from 1715 (at the death of Louis XIV) to 1789 that is
where you have the most fantastic people: you have Montesquieu,
Voltaire and Mozart for me the best music and I love Mozart. The
18th century is lart de vivre, elegance, style, beauty, a pleasure
of life and the main purpose of the French culture at that time I
know it is kind of superficial in a way was elegance and pleasure.
That was fantastic, so that is my century and I am sure that in a
former life I was a philosopher over there.
Fernando Luzio. Ive always seen a strong connection between
Strategy and the Culture Code.
We define Strategy as the set of choices and trade-offs a
company does in order to achieve a perception of Singularity in the
customers mind, raising its willingness to pay and creating
economic value. Today, in the business environment in any place in
the world, its not a battle of products anymore; it is a fierce
competition of business models. Thats why companies have been
developing capabilities in challenging their strategy, to what we
call Business Model Innovation. It starts with a deep understanding
of the customers concerns, aspirations and behavior. By doing so,
we can challenge the companys value proposition, also design more
convenient ways to reach customers (channels), and more
appro-priate customer relationships some of the building blocks of
the strategy.
How can we use an archetype disco-very to reveal a better
picture of customer needs and, therefore, produce powerful insights
and bring competitive advantages to the company?
Dr. Rapaille. It is crucial to understand what people really
want, but at the same time we cannot believe what they say. So
obviously we cannot just ask them about what they are not aware of.
So, any corporation today has to understand the unspoken, the
uncons-cious and the unaddressed need of the customer what do they
want that they are not even aware of ? And if you want to be ahead
of the competition you need to be the first one to discover what
they really want. And this is what we do.
Let me give you an example. You have worked with me at Boeing,
one of my clients. One day they told me We will design airplanes,
we have to compete against the European Airbus and to be ahead of
it, and we want to know what people really want in an
airplane..
So during the Archetype Discovery process we discovered that
they have no idea of what people want because they listened to
them, and when you ask people what do they want in an airplane,
they say I want leg room, good food, good entertainment, good
service, all the movies and everything and the airplane companies
say Lets do it. The Europeans believed the customers, so they built
the big Airbus (A380) where you are going to die with 800 people,
for Gods sake!
What we discovered was that this is not what they want. When
people with money travel, they always take a private jet where they
have no leg room, no food,
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no entertainment and no service and they pay 10 times more for
the private jet. Why? Because when you use a private jet what you
get is NO AIRPORT. What people really want is NO AIRPORT.
Now, think about the beauty of this discovery because everybody
is building bigger and bigger airports, but I predicted that what
people want is NO AIRPORT. Why? Because I usually say that airports
have been designed by mentally retarded engineers! I mean this is
the worst place that you want to go through! All the notion of
being able to arrive with your car next to a private jet in one
step from the car to the plane is the ideal situation. Look at the
absurdity of these corporations and airports, where they keep
adding a step: now you have to take your luggage there, then you
have to go there, then you have to go to security, then you have to
take off your shoes each time there is one more step!
That is why we designed the Boeing 787 (the Dreamliner), which
is a big success for Boeing. Its an airplane that competes with the
Airbus because, in the case of the big Airbus, if you want to go
from Paris to Detroit, you have to go to a hub you have to go to
Chicago, change planes, they lose your luggage, the plane is
delayed and all those things. The Dreamline is the opposite, we did
not suppress completely airports, but LESS AIRPORT should be the
right direction. So the Airbus only goes through hubs because it
needs lots of space.
The Dreamliner can go from anywhere to anywhere, nonstop. So
when I have to fly commercial, I say I want nonstop, and sometimes
they try to cheat me saying Its direct, No, I dont want direct, I
want nonstop!. Because they say direct, but you have to change
planes in Sao Paulo (laughs).
Now, let me tell you what is going to happen: India is very
backwards in terms of infrastructure, and they started investing a
lot of money building big airports. However, they are so big now
that they have to be away from the city. Like Denver
International Airport, which I call The Dumbest International
Airport in the World it is so far away from Denver that you have to
take a car and drive for one hour! When we know that what people
want is NO AIRPORT.
So what is technology going to do? We already have technology
for airplanes to take off without airports, so we dont need
airports. Technology is now using a technique where you can take
off from the roof of any building; it is solely for military
purposes.Second, we have the technology to make all airplanes
silent no noise. Of course, today it costs too much money and we
are not there yet; but remember that at the very beginning of the
car, you needed to have a guy with a flag and a trumpet in front of
the car to go through a village, and at that time they said Oh,
this will neverbe generalized, nobody is going to have cars
everywhere because you need a trumpet and a flag. So it is the same
reaction today with airplanes We are never going to have planes,
because it costs too much money to develop..
And third, we are now developing private jets for 1.5 million
dollars, cheaper than the Bugatti! Private jets are going to be so
cheap that they are going to be like the taxi. Taxis!
If I want to go from here to Detroit which is not too far I have
to take one hour to go from here to the airport, then I have to
arrive two hours before the flight, then usually the flight is on
average, half an hour to 45 minutes late this adds another hour
then I have a 2 hour flight, then when I arrive there I have to
wait for my luggage and then I need another hour, so thats already
9 hours! That is the time that it takes me to drive there!
When I used to work for GM I went to Detroit driving because it
was better. I can stop when I want, I can take all the luggage that
I want, Im not insulted by security guys. But in the future I will
have the plane arriving in the park over here and taking me there,
and a two hour flight will be a two hour flight.
And if you want to be ahead of
the competition you need to be the first one to discover
what
they really want.And this is what
we do.
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...I dont like this word Sustainability because you dont want to
sustain, you want to improve, you want to increase, you want to
grow. The word Sustainis like using the break and stop. Zero growth
is not Reptilian, thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan and
philosophy has a hard time, because it is almost like giving up the
Reptilian.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
Customers dont calculate time the same way that airlines do they
give you the time from the departure gate to the arrival gate. No,
my time is from my home to my meeting in Detroit, that is the real
time! So what customers want? They want the time of travel to be
the real time, they dont want to lose all this time in-between and
this is what is going to be successful in the future.We can already
see, for example, the people that manufacture small private jets
making a fortune. And you are going to tell me Oh, but this is only
for a minority, a small group of people.. Yes, like cars in the
beginning of the 20th century were just for a minority
I predicted that in the future all these crazy airports that
they are building in India and China are going to be like a museum
of the past because nobody is going there, they wont need them.
What happened to horses and carriages is going to happen to
airports! Again and again, what people want is NO AIRPORT, this is
it. Big airport with more traffic jam is not the purpose!
So this is the evolution, but in order to forecast and to
predict the future we have to understand this.
Fernando Luzio. Many traditional Business Models, such as the
media, publishing, automobile, energy industries and others, are
being challenged and threatened by disrupting technologies and
other social phenomena.
In your opinion, for example, the physical book will disappear
in the coming years? How can the Archetype
Discovery process help these industries redesign their Business
Models and readapt?
Dr. Rapaille. It is very interesting because I have been
contacted by Penguin in London, we have been working together and
they want to understand the Code for books.
What is a book? Why do we need a book? I usually say that the
Reptilian always wins and a book is something that you can touch
and feel and carry, it has a weight, it has a sound when you move
it around, there is a sensitive relationship with the book. You
dont have that with an e-book, you dont have that with an iPad. So
there is a dimension in the book that you dont have in other
devices.
Besides that, we have done a lot of work on Internet and
technology and found that you lose so much time on these things! If
I take a book and go to page 190, and if you have an iPad I will
reach page 190 before you. So you have to lose time to save time.
And I dont lose time when I want to go through my book.
We have done a lot of work on Creativity.Our brain is very
sensitive to the environment, to things that are over there but we
dont pay attention conscientiously. We are influenced by this
environment. When I am in my library and I have all my books over
there, I know exactly where they are and I like to touch them, so
there is a stimulation of the mind. With depth, the reality of the
electronic world is that it is very superficial, it is quick and
fast but superficial you will never go in-depth.
Dr. Rapailles residence in Tuxedo (New York)
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Its quite interesting to see that Encyclopedia Britannica is now
on the Internet. Some people have it on the Internet but they want
to see it in book form, so the big mortal mistake is to think that
the electronic model is going to replace it.
And in terms of the Reptilian brain: you might be able to see
your children on Skype, they can speak with you, but is it going to
replace hugging them, kissing them, touching them, eating with
them? It is never going to replace that. This is it!Its very
simple.
And its quite amazing to see the evolution of Luxury right now
in different places like California and Europe, where you have
hotels where there is no electricity at all. You are not allowed to
have your cell phone or any computer, and there is no electricity,
only candles, fire in the fire-place and books. And you pay 1.000
dollars a night, just to have the privilege of not being disturbed
by pim-pom-bin-bon.Suddenly you see the need for the real
thing.
After a while you need meditation, you need time to think, you
need to have time to be with your children and to do simple things,
you need to touch people. That is why the book is going to be
handmade and by the way, I published a special anniversary edition
of my book The Culture Code it is signed, each book has a number,
and at the end there is an imprint of my hand. The symbol of
Luxury: a hand-made book!
Again, that is the evolution. We try to create pocket books that
have no value, but at the same time there is this leather-bound
book that is very beautiful. And it is more than the content alone.
I say the structure is the message, so when I like to touch the
book its already a message for me. I dont have this feeling with
things on the Internet.
But, when I want to do some research for writing my next book
its good to have access to the Internet and all the reference
system that I want, but it doesnt change the fact that I know where
my books are and that they are like friends in my life. There is a
saying in French culture and I think it works in English also: A
house without books is like a man without a soul. So I dont think
the electronic soul will replace it.
Fernando Luzio. As you have already mentioned, Sustainability is
the new moral of contemporary compa-nies. We are witnessing the
challenges many companies face in order to educate and align their
stakeholders with the desired sustainable mindset and attitudes.
How can we imprint sustainability in the corporate culture of
modern organization?
Dr. Rapaille. First of all, I dont like this word
Sustain-ability because you dont want to sustain, you want to
improve, you want to increase, you want to grow. The word Sustain
is like using the break and stop. Zero growth is not Reptilian,
thats why Sustainability in terms of slogan and philosophy has a
hard time, because it is almost like giving up the Reptilian.
On the other hand, it is ridiculous to kill your customer. If
you kill your customer there is no customer anymore. You dont want
to cheat your customer, you dont want to take advantage of them,
you dont want to take advantage of the environment, and you dont
want to kill the environment. Why? Because then, after that, it
will be you next.
So for the Reptilian mind you should create harmonious
relationships of growth, not just to sustain, but growth and
change. One thing that we know for sure is that change is not going
to change, the world is changing all the time and to me
sustainability means that you are able to anticipate the changes
and to be in harmony with the changes. I like better the word
harmony than sustain a kind of repressing. I like movement, I like
growth, I like innovation, I like progress.
So for me, what is interesting is the notion of harmony in the
long-term and reciprocal growth. The notion of reciprocity is very
Chinese. When we did the Code for China, the Chinese didnt like
Americans because Americans just use them to make a sale and the
Chinese dont. For the Chinese to respect you, you have to ask for
reciprocity.
Sustainability, in the long-term, means that I take care of you
and you take care of me. This is reciprocity and it is very much
part of Confuciuss approach: we should take care of each other
because it is an inter-relationship; we need each other, so why do
I want to win if you lose? It is not just win-win, it is more, it
is permanent growth, and this should be the same concerning the
environment and the Planet.
And what is very important today is what we call
anthropocentrism: for the first time humans are changing the Planet
and we are not paying attention to this fact.
As Buckminster Fuller said, The Planet Earth is a spaceship that
has no pilot. I think that more than just protecting the Planet, we
need a pilot; we need someone that can say This the way we want
this Planet to grow and this is how we are going to do that..
Fernando Luzio. Strategy is closely related to human behavior,
because in order to support the strategy execution, people must
change the way they usually work. At the same time that people want
change, they resist to change. Why? Do you believe that people can
really change? How can the Archetype Discovery process help
companies with Change Management?
Dr. Rapaille. This is a very fascinating subject. My first
reaction is: yes, people can change.But it is very difficult; it is
sometimes a lot easier to get somebody else. The joke is Dont
change people, change people which means get somebody else because
it is lots faster.
Why is it so difficult to change? Because usually we want people
to change when its too late already and by the time we arrive at
the decision that we want change, we are already too late.
Going back to my experience with learning to speak and learning
languages I speak English with an accent because I learned English
too late. Yet, my son Dorian speaks French, English and Spanish
with no accent because he learned these three languages before he
was five. So when you learn something at a very early age it is
imprinted in your mind and it is very difficult to change.
My taste for cheese is a very French. Ive tried American cheese,
but I am not going to change and I dont want to change because I
like French cheese. There are some elements that you feel comfort
with; there is a zone in everybodys mind and unconscious where we
are comfortable with and we dont want to change that.
So changing individuals is possible but it is very difficult.
What you can do is to find tensions in everybody. There are always
tensions in us: we love and hate, there are things that we like and
things that we dont like, and we can move on this axis, we can be a
little bit more of this or a little bit more of that. For example,
I was born in France and I have many imprints coming from the
French culture, but during the war I had my first imprint of
Americans: their tanks and the German running away. Immediately I
imprinted that all Americans are winners, are the strong guys and I
wanted to be one of them. After that I went to see Gary Cooper,
John Wayne, Burt Lancaster, and all the American movies and I
identified with them. So I have some imprints on both sides French
and American.
Now, do I want to change? Well, if I want to change in the sense
that I want to work harder, I go to my American side;
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if I want to enjoy more luxury and pleasure, I go to my French
side. So I am not really changing, I am moving into an axis that I
have.
And one way to make people change is to discover these axes that
they have in their Code and help them to move more in one way or
another. So you dont change the axis, you dont imprint anymore
because it is too late when you are 30, 40. What you can do is to
discover these axes and the directions that you might want to
follow; discover the elements that are already there, make them
conscious and push yourself in the direction that you want. Then,
of course you will do it. But if someone tries to impose something
from outside, you will not move.
And corporations, can they change? Yes, they can change faster
than government and politicians because there is a vote everyday:
you either sell or you dont sell your product. And a successful way
to make people change in a corporation is what I call short
feedback: they should know immediately the results of their
actions. The problem is that we delay the feedback and the reward
try to train a horse by giving it feedback once a year: you are
never going to train the horse; you need to do it right away.
I worked for MBNA Credit Card and I told them that when people
are trying to sell, they should have a goal, for example: we want
to sell 200.000 new Credit Cards today for the whole group. Then
the numbers should be posted on a sing on top, showing how much we
did today 185.000, 190.000 so then, they could see it immediately
and get the results.
When you give employees a bonus at the end of the year, they
have no immediate incentive. So I think that technology today makes
it possible for people to really have a short feedback and adjust
their behavior according to what they are doing right or wrong by
seeing it right away. We dont use that technology, we use
bureaucracy, we delay, so everything is wrong.
Another example: 100.000 people die every year in America
because of malpractices and mistakes in hospitals! Twice more than
during the Vietnam War! How can we change that? Well, there is no
signal showing what physicians are doing. There is no measure and
no feedback about the way they dispose all the waste; about the way
that they go from one patient to another without washing their
hands. So if you start putting signals each time a physician washes
his hands, they will be able to see by a visual curve that they
have improved. How many people put waste in the right box? They
would visualize and they would want to do better tomorrow. People
want to do good. To show them they are doing better today than
yesterday is a reward. It is simple. But if you dont show them,
they dont know, so how can they change?
Fernando Luzio. You have broken the Code of many different
cultures. What is your perception about the strengths and
weaknesses of Brazilian culture and how do they affect the
competitiveness in our way of doing business in a global world?
Dr. Rapaille. The clich is Brazil is the country of the future
and it has been the country of the future for what, 100 years? It
seems that the future is never arriving (laughs), but I think it is
arriving.
I went to Brazil for the first time in 1969 to study the Indians
in Xingu (I was part of the Museu do ndio) and since then, I have
been watching the evolut ion of your country. My perception is that
the potential is absolutely incredible.
The key element for a culture to be successful in the future is
whether they will have a contribution to make to the Planet. Thats
i t : what is your contribution?
Like it or not, the only thing that the French culture can bring
to the rest of the world is Luxury. This is the only thing they can
do: Cartier, Van Cleef, Champagne.
What can Brazilians bring to the world? A feminine culture, the
womans
side and the notion of mulher guerreira (warrior woman), which
means that I am going to work hard every day to improve the life
condition of my family; I know that life is difficult, I know that
I dont have all the money that I need, but I dont give up, I work a
little bit more every day. So this persistence combined with a
certain realism and optimism at the same time; paired with this
consistency of hard work, in improving, this is something very
strong.
I am completely convinced that global leaders in the future are
going to be women and we need to start thinking like a woman. I am
doing some work right now on high education around the world and in
most of the business schools there are no classes on how to think
like a woman. Big mistake! Why? Because we only think like a man
and we dont understand that women think differently. What is the
big difference? This is how men make a definition: not this, cut it
off; not this, cut it off. Eliminate, eliminate and that is it.Now
we have a definition. That is hard data; we have done work around
the world to find out about this.
Yet, women make definitions by inclusion: this is it also; and
this is it also; and this is it also And what is very difficult for
men to accept is that it never finishes, it is never done. You can
keep adding and adding.
Brazil is a very feminine culture and we can learn about this
inclusive dimension. I remember I had a feijoada with you one day,
and one thing that I learned about feijoada is that you can
The key element for a culture to be successful in the future is
whether they will have a contribution to make to the Planet. (...)
What can Brazilians bring to the world? A feminine culture, the
womans side and the notion of mulher guerreira (warrior woman).
I am completely convinced that global leaders in the future are
going to be women and we need to start thinking like a woman.
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
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always add some water if there are more people coming and they
are always welcome. It is not exclusive, it is inclusive. The same
is true concerning peoples race. I remember this beautiful woman:
she was part Japanese, part African, part Swiss, she had all this
mix and wow, the result was fantastic!
Right now in Europe there is a very big danger: we see racism
and fascism coming back. This is not part of the Brazilian mindset;
it is more inclusive, more open. I think it is fine that you have a
woman leader, and even Lula was more feminine.
So that is one of the things that I find very good in the
Brazilian culture; this inclusiveness is the contribution that
Brazil can bring to the world.
Fernando Luzio. You mentioned your worry about the Europe. As an
Archetypologist, how can Americans and Europeans explore the power
of their Culture Codes in order to overcome the crisis and
turnaround?
Dr. Rapaille. The crisis that we have today is a result of the
dominance of the Cortex. Americans have been very good for many
years and centuries because we are not too Cortex. The clich is
that America has a bias for action, so lets do it you dont know
what you are going to do, but you do it.
Europeans are the opposite, they want to think, to organize, so
the result is more laws, regulation, slowing down the process. And
the problem with the new administration of Obama in America is that
they are very much European in the way of thinking, so they create
more laws, more regulations, they slow down the process, they want
to create a big government. They should look at France where 65% of
the budget is the government. Everybody is leaving there, nobody
wants to create anymore.
France has a deficit of 100 billion Euros, when the German make
200 billion surpluses. What is the big difference between the two?
Well, the French dudes dont want to work; they want the state to
take care of everything. The idea to put Germans and Greeks in same
box is absurd. It is never going to work; it is like trying to give
the same rules to giraffes and elephants. No way!
So Europeans have to understand and accept that these cultures
are different and before they become one big culture which is going
to take centuries they have to move to another structure, a
structure which respects cultural differences. The British
understand that very well, they always felt that they were
different. They still have the pound, not the euro.
And for me a good example is Switzerland. Switzerland is a great
country, they are very successful. They have 4 official languages
and every subculture is respected. So you can create something like
that, of course it is possible.
The problem with America is more serious, because it is not an
issue between Republicans and Democrats. The problem is the
politicians and not if they are Democrats or Republicans. The big
government that we have was created by Republicans. The crazy
politicians, in order to be reelected have to spend, spend, spend
and so on. So that is a big issue and if it keeps going like that
we are going to become like France. We have already one of the
biggest deficits in the world and we are going to have more
regulations.
So what Americans and Europeans should do? They should try to
copy countries that are successful, what we call best practices in
government. We do that in manufacturing, why dont we do that in
governments?
And the number one example for me is Singapore. I wrote an
article and said: Monsieur Hollande (the new French President)
should work as an interne in Singapore to learn from these guys
over there.. Singapores model is unique and
very successful. They have 2% unemployment, Spain has 25%! So
obviously, Spain should learn something from them.
Why are they so successful? Because it has Reptilian principles.
First of all they have no gas, no oil, no land, no natural
resources, they have nothing. They are not like those spoiled
little Arabian countries which live on royalties. They have
nothing. So what was the first thing they did? In 1965, when
Malaysia rejected Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, the leader at that time
said Ok guys, we have no choice. We have to be better than the
others because we have no resources, we are poor, we have to be the
best..
And what is the first thing we need to do? Clean: that is a
Reptilian priority. Mothers know that you have to be clean, the
food has to be clean, the children. So we want the house to be
clean, the street to be clean, we want the food to be clean, you
need to be clean, your clothes have to be clean. Clean, clean and
that creates a mindset, a first imprint about discipline, demand
and exigencies. The first thing that Lee Kuan Yew imprinted in
peoples minds he did not have to write it down. It is duties and
one of the biggest polemics in American culture is that criminals
have more rights than victims.
Then the second one was: you have to work hard. This is very
Chinese, a Confucius dimension that you have to work and you have
to learn. Learn, learn, learn, and never stop learning. And then
there is this notion of respect: respect your family, respect your
father.
Right now there is more average income in Singapore, something
like 70.000 dollars a year. They have more millionaires over there
than anywhere else in the world. With 5 million people and they
make 55 billion surplus between import and export 1/4 of what
Germans do with 80 million people. Can you imagine that?
There is no corruption, and do you know why? Because all civil
servants make an average of 1 million dollars a year. So, when you
are a Director of an Agency you dont need more money, you already
have 1 million dollars! So it is amazing. And because they pay
civil servants very well they have the best people wanting to
become civil servants, again it is a virtuous cycle.
And it is a very safe place. I have been there many times and
women can walk safely at night in the street. There is no graffiti
because you go to jail.
Ive done work in Singapore very much and when Ive asked young
people in Singapore: Would they live somewhere else? They said: No.
Id rather be in Singapore, it is a lot better here. So young people
love it, they appre-ciate the structure, the security, the safety,
transportation is almost free, the subway is very nice and
beautiful and safe.
My next book is called The Global Code and The Global Mind and I
say that these global leaders should look at the best practices
around the world. And even if I criticize the French all the time,
French medicine is a lot better than American medicine, on
average.
They get better results twice as much, for 1/3 of the price per
person than they do in America. America is in an estate of waste,
an incredible waste. So they should learn again: what are the
French doing better than Americans in terms of medicine?
Fernando Luzio. You know about my passion for Japan, and for me
something very provocative is what the country has been facing.
The Japanese economy experienced a huge expansion after the
Second World War, up until the 90s, leading some technology
innovations and some of the modern management practices, such as
the Lean Manufacturing from Toyota, Total Quality Management, Just
in Time, and others.
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Nowadays, the country has been facing trouble in overcoming the
disturbing creativity and innovation blackout, adapting the
business model of their large companies, and losing space for their
Asiatic neighbors. Even Toyota has recently experienced a traumatic
recall that questioned their legacy as the Quality icon.
The Japanese movie industry lost space in the recent years for
the up and coming Korean and Chineses films.
How can we help Japanese companies to readapt and turnaround in
order to recover their relevant role in the global scenario?
Dr. Rapaille. That is why Japan needs Brazil, because the
Japanese Code is almost your opposite.
Ive been studying in Japan since 1964 when I went to Japan for
the first time. I had a company there for a while and have done a
lot of work in Japan. Japanese culture is fascinating, it is one of
the most interesting cultures for me to study and decode. But on
the other hand, their very culture presents a problem to the
Japanese.
And what is the problem? The Koreans that have been in Japan for
three generations are still Korean, there is no integration.
Japanese Japanaise, it is not like the feijoada where you mix
things. The Japanese mind is about the purity of the blade, the
high density of the laser, thats why they are so good when it comes
to quality, and intensity they are intense. That is what they want.
For long time they have been better than everybody else because of
that. Absolutely! But at a certain time this
high-density is just so selfish and so self-centered, that they
forget about the rest of the planet.
So, Japanese companies have to face different challenges today.
As you know Korea has been occupied by the Japanese for more than
30 years. They were forced to think Japanese, to speak Japanese, to
have Japanese names, and then, when in 1945 the Japanese left,
Koreans went back to being Korean. But they have integrated all the
good things such as quality and density. They are fantastic; they
are Italian and Japanese at the same time. They have the passion
and the excitement of the Italian and they have the intensity of
the Japanese. The Japanese are not Italian at all; they have never
integrated the Italian dimension.
So, Japanese companies are still imperialistic in their minds.
They want to impose Japan. They cant mix with the other cultures.
So, I see a better future for Brazil than for Japan,
unfortunately.
Then, aging population is another big issue. They have a healthy
lifestyle in Japan so they live forever, they never die, but you
have to feed them one way or another, so you have this work force
in Japan that is shrinking and the aging population growing.
There are a lot of similarities between Japan and Germany: same
unconscious structure. When the Japanese needed to have a
bureaucracy, they copied the German. Today they have the car
industry in common. They were good soldiers, imperialistic
soldiers; they were
allies during the war, so there are a lot of similarities.
But the German managed to stay German and reinvent themselves.
So the Japanese again should look at the Germans and copy the model
being used over there, on how the Germans are doing, on how come
they are successful there, because this is not off code with Japan.
Both love the systemic approach, so that is how the Japanese can
grow.
Fernando Luzio. Something that I find very interesting is that
always at the beginning of an Archetype Discovery process you start
by asking your client If I had all the answers, what would your
questions be?.
Now I really would like to know If I had all the answers, what
would your questions be? What are the intriguing questions in your
mind nowadays?
Dr. Rapaille. If you had all the answers, I think my number one
question would be Where is the global leader that could be the
pilot for this Planet?.
And he or she cannot be a politician maybe a king/queen
philosopher, a wizard, a high priest, something like that. But
there is a need for another Archetype to come and to guide. Because
right now, we are moving in so many different directions, in part
destroying the Planet, which is bad.So, that will be my dream, to
discover this structure, beyond politics, beyond economy, beyond
major corporations. Who will be the best pilot?
My next book is called The Global Code and The Global Mind and I
say that these global leaders should look at the best practices
around the world. (...) French medicine is a lot better than
American medicine, on average. They get better results twice as
much, for 1/3 of the price per person than they do in America.
America is in an estate of waste, an incredible waste. So they
should learn again: what are the French doing better than Americans
in terms of medicine?
Dr. Clotaire Rapaille
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Fernando Luzio. To close this unforgettable interview, if you
wouldwrite a letter to our children about your key learning and
recommen-dations on how to be a better individual and professional,
what would be your core legacy?
Dr. Rapaille. My mother was a very special woman and she always
told me one simple message that I would like to transmit to my 2
sons.
I was kind of crazy when I was young I am still crazy today, but
a different crazy: one day while I was playing music, I said I want
to become a musician; another day I would be painting, and I would
say I want to become a painter; I wanted to cure children; I want
to become a doctor, and my mother always told me Whatever you
decide to do, you are going to succeed..
For me that was one of the best messages anybody could tell me,
specially my mother, because I thought Wow! Maybe she is right,
maybe I am going to do that and I am going to succeed..
So I would like my children to have this self-confidence. Dont
try to do what I want you to do.Dont try to be what I want you to
be. Dont want to become what anybody else wants you to be, but do
whatever you want to do and you are going to succeed. I think that
the wrong idea is to say Oh, I want my son to be a doctor or an
engine-er..Forget it! Let them do whatever they want to do.
So, this is the best legacy that you can give your children
Whatever you are going to do, you are going to be successful in,
just trust yourself and do the best you can.
Fernando Luzio. Your Archetype Discovery legacy is fascinating
and very on code with the historical moment that we are
experiencing: globalization, when the world must learn to
recognize, respect and learn how to deal with the differences.
Your company has helped to educate large organizations around
the world on how to understand and value the differences and to use
them in their favor, not against them.
And all of us, from Luzio Strategy Consulting are deeply honored
and proud of being part of the ADWs fami-ly and sharing its
mission. Dr. Rapaille, thank you very much for your interview.
Dr. Rapaille. It was my pleasure, thank you.
NOVOS INTRPRETES PROGRAM
Created and Directed by: Fernando Luzio and Ren
GuedesInterviewer: Fernando Luzio
Editorial Supervision: Patrcia Luzio
Edited and Photographed by: Robson Crociati and Henrique
PintoProduction: Luzio Strategy Consulting
LUZIO STRATEGY CONSULTING
Website: www.luzio.com.br /E-mail: [email protected]
Tel: +55 (11) 3045-5651Rua Afonso Braz, 473 - cj. 43Vila Nova
Conceio - So Paulo - SP 04511-011 Brazil
Dr. Rapaille on the left; Fernando Luzio on the right
The video and audio of this inter-view are available on our
website www.luzio.com.br and iTunes Store
A PDF of this interview is also available in Portuguese
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