7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 1/32 News US World Sports Comment Culture Business Money Environment Science Travel Tech Media Life & style Data Search Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates • 295 people on board plane that crashed in eastern Ukraine • Bodies and wreckage found near town of Grabovo • Uncertainty over who has capability to shoot down flight • Ukrainian, Russian and rebel leaders deny involvement Tweet 2,440 82 Email Harriet Salem (@HarrietSalem) is in Grabovo for the Guardian. 2m ago Emergency workers at the site of a Malaysia Airlines crash in the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters World news Ukraine · Russia · Malaysia · Asia Pacific · Europe More minute by minutes More blogposts More news More on this story Missile destroys Malaysia Airlines plane and kills 295 people Pro-Russia rebels are blamed as airliner is downed over Ukraine, close to Russian border Malaysia Airlines MH17 was flying just 1,000ft above restricted airspace Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes in east Ukraine Malaysia Airlines plane may have been shot down by Buk missile Malaysia: 'We're not ready to accept this so soon after MH370 tragedy' Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes over Ukraine - video A history of aircraft that have been shot down Ukraine claims fighter plane shot down by Russian missile On the Guardian today Why I'd like to be ... Val Kilmer in Tombstone News World news Ukraine Sign into the Guardian using your Facebook account LIVE Share 4317 Alan Yuhas Follow @alanyuhas Follow @GuardianUS theguardian.com, Thursday 17 July 2014 16.30 EDT Jump to comments (1451) Film Sort by: Latest first Oldest first Auto update: On Off LIVE Edition: UK US AU Sign in Beta
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
Show 12 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:26pm
ParticularCrab
BBC already reporting crash site to be much nearer to the Russian boarder thanFlightradar24 picture shows.
17 July 2014 5:25pm
54
Spaldy ParticularCrab
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
Alex Weber Alex Weber
Sorry 21,000 not 25,000. Same principles apply. Any weapon that canshoot down a plane at 21,000 is not a shoulder MANPAD, but the sametype of weapon that can target at 33,000.
17 July 2014 6:07pm
18
bbano Alex Weber
they claimed to have captured BUK missiles in June.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:47pm
Correct & one group of humanity had the weapons (& inclination) to shootdown an airliner clearly crossing from Ukraine airspace into Russianairspace & flying at around 10,000 meters - & clearly not landing anywherenear where it was shoot down.
userid DoesNotComputer
Humanity is sloppy
Especially in cases when cynically making pretexts to continue wars. Abstracting of booing it's clear that shooting down a civil plane is beneficial toAnti Terrorist Operation by Kiev but not to the rebels. Think twice world is more complex than seems.
Anyway this is a great tragedy, and EU and US must insist on ceasefireinstead of pushing Kiev to action.
17 July 2014 6:39pm
37
Alex Weber userid
The rebels said they shot down a military plane at the same time this plane
17 July 2014 6:48pm
43
9 PEOPLE, 11 COMMENTS
Show 8 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:08pm
ClaphamWolves
Shocking stuff.
17 July 2014 5:25pm
100
Vatslav Rente ClaphamWolves
July 8 State Air Service of Ukraine has banned flights over the Donbas. Whyinternational airline flight allowed into the war zone? Who needed this tragedy? Kiev and Washington?
17 July 2014 6:11pm
91
Dmitry Naumenko Vatslav Rente
See above.
Dan Milmo in London reports that it has been normal practice for airlines tofly over conflict zones since the Ukraine conflict began. He interviewed apilot for a major European airline:
"We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air conflict, but we flewover Iraq and Afghanistan when the British and US armed forces weredelpoyed there, because only one side was using military jets."
Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones where groups might be inpossession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot said: "There will be weaponsbased on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in theair. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."
17 July 2014 6:17pm
28
PotholeKid Vatslav Rente
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17 July 2014 6:39pm
19 PEOPLE, 25 COMMENTS
Doug Salzmann
Why was a passenger plane flying through airspace that has been the scene, fordays, of aerial bombardment of the DPR resistance and local civilians, and of returnfire by the resistance that has already downed multiple Ukrainian military aircraft?
Show 22 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:53pm
PaperEater Doug Salzmann
Victim blaming much?
17 July 2014 5:34pm
162
Clayton Brooks PaperEater
seems more like an observation to me, but i suppose everything is open tointerpretation these days.
17 July 2014 5:39pm
89
Alex Weber Doug Salzmann
Because warplanes don't fly at anywhere near 33,000 feet, except for
17 July 2014 5:39pm
154
5 PEOPLE, 6 COMMENTS
Show 3 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:21pm
Menotti
Christ on a bike.
17 July 2014 5:27pm
29
HansVonDerHeyde Menotti
I'm sorry for the relatives of the passengers.But , how can you fly an airplane in a zone where jets do bombardmentsand get shot down. Didn't the Pilot knew of the Deadly conflict going on?!?!Why didn't the Control Towers told him ?!?!
17 July 2014 7:01pm
17
Adrian Eff Menotti
Strap back and fish eggs
17 July 2014 7:03pm
1
DrCJ Menotti
Yes indeed. What kind of knob routes an aircraft over a war-zone inhabited
17 July 2014 8:14pm
4
15 PEOPLE, 20 COMMENTS
CharlesII
Maybe comments shouldn't be on here?
17 July 2014 5:27pm
157
Menotti CharlesII
Quite; news agencies and governments have no idea what's happening.Opening this up to the PutinBots with their 8 bajillion recommends and theAnti-American rabble only adds to the net amount of disdain for humanitythis story can generate.
17 July 2014 5:31pm
277
Spacedone CharlesII
I was going to disagree and then I read Beanfield85's idiocy.
Show 17 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:39pm
ColdPenguin Menotti
Opening this up to the PutinBots
17 July 2014 5:34pm
58
Euronymous
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17 July 2014 5:28pm
Beanfield85
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17 July 2014 5:28pm
helpmejebus
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17 July 2014 5:29pm
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
Trudi Goater
If nothing else brings them to their senses then this should surely!!! An immediatecease fire should be called at once and all this crap must stop
17 July 2014 5:29pm
64
Ishowerdaily Trudi Goater
You'd hope so wouldn't you? Unfortunately, for me, it feels the closest toWW3 since 1984.
I don't despair of humanity - just the fools, crooks and charlatans we allowto lead us into inhumanity.
17 July 2014 5:45pm
101
Peter Mundy Ishowerdaily
Couldn't agree more, mate. Couldn't agree more.
17 July 2014 7:07pm
11
helpmejebus
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17 July 2014 5:30pm
16 PEOPLE, 21 COMMENTS
ColdPenguin
It is interesting to see how the Telegraph are reporting this with lots of pictures ofRussian missiles and bellicose statements from a variety of their journalists who, likeeveryone at present know nothing.
It gives an insight into how a regional event was blown up into WW1 by interestedparties in 1914.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:19pm
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17 July 2014 5:34pm
harrowperson Trader SeerStrategy
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17 July 2014 5:49pm
Aleksandr Romanovich Podgaets Trader SeerStrategy
Let's hope it will a wake up call for both gangs, finally sit down and talk.
17 July 2014 6:04pm
8
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
Trudi Goater
If this doesn't bring these idiots to their senses nothing will! An immediate cease fireshould be declared straight away! These morons need to stop now RIP poor people
17 July 2014 5:32pm
49
pagon007 Trudi Goater
Ukraine's defense minister said that the past truce was "tactical move toregroup the army" .. After such words and actions during the truce, therebels will hardly believe Kiev
17 July 2014 8:25pm
6
Capleton Trudi Goater
Come on,Identical Planes,of the same Airline within a few months ?Immediately assumed to have been shot down ?Anyone travelling to Dubai crosses here,and the Iran/Iraq border.Buckle up.
17 July 2014 9:08pm
GhostWiper
Tragic. Hopefully nothing sinister has happened but it’s a sad old world whenbecause of the airline and the place it crashed we immediately assume the worst.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
19
mike65ie
Just what we need - a blog full of "bots" from both sides posting propaganda.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
47
8 PEOPLE, 9 COMMENTS
Martynas Sv
Nor Ukrainians nor separatists didnt have a weapon to get down this plane in thataltitude, so it must be russian work.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
15
edwardrice Martynas Sv
Why would Russia shot down a passenger jet. Did Russia think it was ahigh level bomber about to attack? Please explain.
Show 6 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:56pm
Menotti edwardrice
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17 July 2014 6:02pm
lexnex Martynas Sv
Why would Russia do it? It would not benefit neither politically, nor
17 July 2014 6:04pm
17
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
FieldingGray
I suppose it's too much to hope that the tin foil hat brigade won't muddy the waterswith their usual ridiculous talk of False Flag ops?
Yeah, I always was a naive optimist....
17 July 2014 5:33pm
39
Adkult FieldingGray
Yeah, well, sorry, you should always keep your options open. Dumb nottoo. Neither the east or west are angels. Just remember the Reichstag firein 1933. Seems some people never learn their lessons. It's one of the oldesttricks in the book.
17 July 2014 7:32pm
9
Capleton FieldingGray
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17 July 2014 9:10pm
12 PEOPLE, 13 COMMENTS
Show 10 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:10pm
Miamijim
If Russia shot this plane down there will be hell to pay.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
27
bobble07 Miamijim
Well not hard to see your line of thinking
But if Ukraine shot it down then it there will still be hell to pay for Russiaright..?
17 July 2014 5:36pm
107
Menotti Miamijim
Respectfully I disagree. There should be hell to pay, but there won't; 300lives are nowt to those who think in terms of geopolitics.
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 6:03pm
PaperEater
Before people jump to conclusions and kick off world war 3 let's hope that no actionsare taken before all the facts are known. It really could have been a crash with nooutside interference.
17 July 2014 5:34pm
48
NotWithoutMyMonkey PaperEater
Agreed. Let's give the families of those lost time to grief and the relevantimpartial bodies to determine the cause.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
13
NotWithoutMyMonkey NotWithoutMyMonkey
grieve, not grief.
If impartial bodies are involved in determining the cause then the truth willcome to light soon enough. Either way, were this civilian plane shot down byeither side (or a third party) this constitutes a serious escalation of thesetension with unimaginable ramifications.
17 July 2014 5:46pm
5
SingaporeSlim PaperEater
But unlikely as planes don't go down in cruise very often
17 July 2014 5:58pm
4
deezer
Jesus. RIP.
17 July 2014 5:34pm
16
2 PEOPLE, 2 COMMENTS
Jamesread
Trigger-happy morons (from whichever side).
17 July 2014 5:35pm
13
MuadDibFremen Jamesread
Agreed, RIP.
17 July 2014 7:24pm
ovacik777
DON'T JUMP THE GUN, GET FACTS,?????
17 July 2014 5:35pm
19
10 PEOPLE, 10 COMMENTS
Nolens
Reports say flight MH17 was brought down by an anti aircraft missile, most probablyby Russian backed rebels. If this is the case, it will cause a very, very serious crisisbetween the West and Russia. I hope a full transparant investigation will be launchedthat will not be blocked by the Russians. My sincere condolences to all those whohave lost loved ones in this tragedy.
17 July 2014 5:36pm
95
umut gezer Nolens
it is in Ukraine territory, so if there is any bias report on crash it will come
Show 7 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:55pm
it is in Ukraine territory, so if there is any bias report on crash it will comeonly from Americans.
SamDecker umut gezer
You lot keep saying it's not Ukraine territory but NovoRussia. You can't haveit both ways. Make up your minds.
17 July 2014 5:48pm
64
scipio16 umut gezer
irony?
17 July 2014 5:54pm
5
MalenkyMuk
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17 July 2014 5:37pm
12 PEOPLE, 14 COMMENTS
Show 11 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:35pm
Awaba
Is history repeating itself? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
"Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007) was a scheduledKorean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1,1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor nearMoneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the East Sea. The interceptor's pilot wasMajor Gennadi Osipovich. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, includingLawrence McDonald, representative from Georgia in the United States House ofRepresentatives. The aircraft was en route from Anchorage to Seoul when it flewthrough prohibited Soviet airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissancemission.
The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident, but later admitted theshootdown, claiming that the aircraft was on a spy mission."
17 July 2014 5:37pm
26
umut gezer Awaba
are you forgetting Iranian plane shot down by the US?
17 July 2014 5:39pm
103
Zain Tariq umut gezer
Absolutely correct! 290 deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
17 July 2014 5:44pm
39
Alexander Pankov Awaba
What about this event? When Ukrainians shot down a Russian plane??? Or
17 July 2014 5:50pm
33
Lee Richard
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Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:49pm
1Essex
Whenever I've flown on international flights that cross over areas of the globe wherefighting is taking place I've never been concerned as I always imagined that 33,000feet would be high enough to avoid things like this.
Frightening that this is apparently incorrect, and it seems like more careful routing offlights is required.
17 July 2014 5:37pm
53
healey 1Essex
I always imagined that 33,000 feet would be high enough to avoidthings like this.
Not a chance. There's a reason why the old SR-71 Blackbird cruised atMach 3 at an altitude of 85,000ft.
17 July 2014 5:55pm
12
rh123 healey
Yep. The necessary lack of air resistance to do Mach 3?
17 July 2014 6:19pm
12
healey rh123
Well yes, but it did both to avoid interception, whereas the U2 did not.
17 July 2014 6:42pm
4 PEOPLE, 4 COMMENTS
365days
Now where have I...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
17 July 2014 5:38pm
18
rockyrex 365days
I remember the Korean airliner incident. In the UK that evening, the BBCnews opened with the BBC Evesham picture.
This suggests that TV was about to switch to the Emergency BroadcastingService which (in the event of nuclear war) would have taken over allbroadcasting from the BBC bunker at Wood Norton near Evesham.
Within seconds it went back to the normal picture, with a rattled newsreaderreporting the story.
Things were very close that day.
17 July 2014 5:46pm
15
kgbgb 365days
Now where have I... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
Now where have I...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
17 July 2014 6:28pm
8
hertsred 365days
You only have to go back to 2001 when the Ukrainian military shot down aRussian airliner with 78 people on board, claimed it was an accident.
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
Voltaire21
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
lexnex
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
GuyCybershy
"The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity"
How often have we heard this phrase recently?
17 July 2014 5:39pm
22
5 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:51pm
totis
What a tragedy. The worst thing is that both sides will blame each other, thesmoking gun will never be found, and the families of the deceased will never knowwho committed this dreadful crime.
17 July 2014 5:40pm
17
bootboys totis
What a tragedy. The worst thing is that both sides will blameeach other, the smoking gun will never be found, and the familiesof the deceased will never know who committed this dreadfulcrime.
If indeed a crime was committed. You seem to know already so perhapsyou can tell us what happened to that other Malaysian Airlines jet?
17 July 2014 6:16pm
7
hamatik bootboys
No he/she just doesn't exist on a higher plane of consciousness to the restof us, as you do yourself.
17 July 2014 6:30pm
4
PeteCW totis
The families of the deceased will very soon know that their loved ones were
17 July 2014 8:27pm
3
Simon100
Tragedy! Those poor people on the plane and their families.
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17 July 2014 5:41pm
JonCymru
What's really needed now is cool heads, considering the calibre of politicians anddiplomats on this planet right now, I won't hold my breath.
17 July 2014 5:41pm
32
djkbrown2001
This is shocking! Let's hope these idiots will now come around to their senses andhave an immediate and permanent seize fire. To many illnesses and naturaldisasters can kill us ,so let's not add to it by killing each other.
17 July 2014 5:41pm
4
alcove
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17 July 2014 5:41pm
3 PEOPLE, 4 COMMENTS
martyjar
295 civilians – from that height. This looks certain to be an absolutely massivetragedy, with unthinkable death levels. RIP.
Certainly the evidence on what has happened seems to be pointing in one direction,but there’ll now be a huge amount of international scrutiny on the case, and weshould hear more in coming days.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
14
Vladimir Makarenko martyjar
What evidence? You know something nobody else does?
17 July 2014 7:06pm
7
PeteCW Vladimir Makarenko
Vladimir - next time your 'supervisor' goes for a cigarette break or to get thelatest orders from the Kremlin, look up from your screen and take a quickpeek at the real world. (Don't get caught though.)
The Russian separatists did this - by mistake I grant you - but they shot thisplane down because they thought it was a Ukrainian jet. They have the anti-aircraft capability either smuggled from Russia or taken from the Ukrainianmilitary.
17 July 2014 8:42pm
6
PeteCW martyjar
295 civilians – from that height. This looks certain to be an absolutelymassive tragedy, with unthinkable death levels. RIP.
I think the unthinkable death levels might be around 295 people. At aguess.
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:57pm
Guardian - get the bloody comments off this article/news feed - have you nosympathy for the victims here.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
Jamesread RedsInTheBed
Do you want to shut down Twitter as well?
17 July 2014 5:48pm
76
necronancy RedsInTheBed
I think you are confusing sympathy with censorship here. The only mercifulthing is that the poor victims would not have suffered, unlike their families,but this is a major geo-political event and you want to shut everyone up. Ishan't wish you good luck with that.
17 July 2014 6:53pm
83
JezD RedsInTheBed
Out of "sympathy" for the victims should I not discuss this with my wife? Or
17 July 2014 7:35pm
35
2 PEOPLE, 2 COMMENTS
Kookaroo
This is a tragedy. It will also open fresh wounds for the families of the still missingflight MH370 and, it is worth reflecting, that hundreds of new families will be in agonyand grief tonight.
It would be advisable to either close the comments on this story or at least moderateto avoid adding to their anguish as they search for news. It is far too early tospeculate, and doing so will only acerbate an already dreadful situation.
'roo
17 July 2014 5:43pm
22
nomoregoodids Kookaroo
Kookaroo the pro-censorship chicken.
17 July 2014 8:34pm
1
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Zain Tariq
A similar incident happened in 1983 when one fighter jet of the Soviet union shotdown a South Korean passenger plane and this was during the Cold War.
It took years to finish the investigation and a lot of speculation. I need quick answersto this incident
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:29pm
Zain Tariq SamDecker
Oh we got a badass here!
17 July 2014 7:46pm
2
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:45pm
SamDecker
Wow, nothing is officially known yet but the Kremlin lot are already out in force,spinning away, as if they sense they're side has done something indefensible andthey need to shift the blame pronto.
17 July 2014 5:43pm
45
orangeproximity SamDecker
It is interesting how a plane goes missing over Ukraine and the Russiansare to blame... Is there some time when the Russians are not to blame?Talk about spinning away mate...
17 July 2014 6:00pm
53
hamatik SamDecker
Both sides are probably panicking hoping it wasn't their allies' actions thatbrought the plane down.
Could have been terrorists or engine failure or anything. Would be a hugecoincidence, but you never know.
If anyone's got shares in Malaysia Airlines, I'd pretty much write them off.
17 July 2014 6:06pm
9
SamDecker orangeproximity
I've blamed no one for the crash - just the relentless, knee-jerk propaganda.
17 July 2014 6:09pm
5
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:50pm
JustDeFacts
why was a civilian passenger plane routed directly across a disputed war zone whereaircraft get shot down?
17 July 2014 5:43pm
33
scottie123 JustDeFacts
Planes fly over conflict zones all the time. Unless there is a no-fly-zoneabove 8000m then the commercial flights continue, I flew over Afghanistanon the same Amsterdam-KL route during the war there.
17 July 2014 6:00pm
16
SingaporeSlim JustDeFacts
Because its a well established corridor. There are plenty of flights using itright this minute, have a look at Flight Radar 24. I personally flew it lastweek and will be going across it again in 4 days time unless the routing ischanged, which I hope to Christ it will be
17 July 2014 6:02pm
13
JustDeFacts scottie123
civilian planes fly over war zones where planes get shot down with missiles