立法會 Legislative Council LC Paper No. FC206/11-12 (These minutes have been seen by the Administration) Ref : CB1/F/1/2 Finance Committee of the Legislative Council Minutes of the 32 nd meeting held in Conference Room 1 of the Legislative Council Complex on Friday, 22 June 2012, at 6:35 pm Members present: Hon Emily LAU Wai-hing, JP (Chairman) Prof Hon Patrick LAU Sau-shing, SBS, JP (Deputy Chairman) Hon Albert HO Chun-yan Ir Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, SBS, S.B.St.J., JP Hon LEE Cheuk-yan Hon Fred LI Wah-ming, SBS, JP Dr Hon Margaret NG Hon James TO Kun-sun Hon CHEUNG Man-kwong Hon CHAN Kam-lam, SBS, JP Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, GBS, JP Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong, GBS Hon WONG Yung-kan, SBS, JP Hon LAU Kong-wah, JP Hon LAU Wong-fat, GBM, GBS, JP Hon Miriam LAU Kin-yee, GBS, JP Hon TAM Yiu-chung, GBS, JP Hon Abraham SHEK Lai-him, SBS, JP Hon LI Fung-ying, SBS, JP Hon Tommy CHEUNG Yu-yan, SBS, JP Hon Audrey EU Yuet-mee, SC, JP Hon Vincent FANG Kang, SBS, JP Hon LEE Wing-tat
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Legislative Council€¦ · Mr IP Wai-ming Mr IP Kwok-him Mrs Regina IP LAU Suk-yee Dr PAN Pey-chyou Mr Paul TSE Wai-chun Dr Samson TAM Wai-ho (30 members) The Chairman declared that
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立法會 Legislative Council
LC Paper No. FC206/11-12 (These minutes have been seen by the Administration)
Ref : CB1/F/1/2
Finance Committee of the Legislative Council
Minutes of the 32nd meeting held in Conference Room 1 of the Legislative Council Complex
on Friday, 22 June 2012, at 6:35 pm
Members present: Hon Emily LAU Wai-hing, JP (Chairman) Prof Hon Patrick LAU Sau-shing, SBS, JP (Deputy Chairman) Hon Albert HO Chun-yan Ir Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai, SBS, S.B.St.J., JP Hon LEE Cheuk-yan Hon Fred LI Wah-ming, SBS, JP Dr Hon Margaret NG Hon James TO Kun-sun Hon CHEUNG Man-kwong Hon CHAN Kam-lam, SBS, JP Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, GBS, JP Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong, GBS Hon WONG Yung-kan, SBS, JP Hon LAU Kong-wah, JP Hon LAU Wong-fat, GBM, GBS, JP Hon Miriam LAU Kin-yee, GBS, JP Hon TAM Yiu-chung, GBS, JP Hon Abraham SHEK Lai-him, SBS, JP Hon LI Fung-ying, SBS, JP Hon Tommy CHEUNG Yu-yan, SBS, JP Hon Audrey EU Yuet-mee, SC, JP Hon Vincent FANG Kang, SBS, JP Hon LEE Wing-tat
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Dr Hon Joseph LEE Kok-long, SBS, JP Hon Jeffrey LAM Kin-fung, GBS, JP Hon Andrew LEUNG Kwan-yuen, GBS, JP Hon CHEUNG Hok-ming, GBS, JP Hon WONG Ting-kwong, BBS, JP Hon KAM Nai-wai, MH Hon Cyd HO Sau-lan Hon Starry LEE Wai-king, JP Hon CHAN Hak-kan Hon Paul CHAN Mo-po, MH, JP Hon CHAN Kin-por, JP Dr Hon Priscilla LEUNG Mei-fun, JP Hon CHEUNG Kwok-che Hon WONG Sing-chi Hon WONG Kwok-kin, BBS Hon IP Wai-ming, MH Hon IP Kwok-him, GBS, JP Hon Mrs Regina IP LAU Suk-yee, GBS, JP Dr Hon PAN Pey-chyou Hon Paul TSE Wai-chun, JP Dr Hon Samson TAM Wai-ho, JP Hon Alan LEONG Kah-kit, SC Hon Tanya CHAN Hon Albert CHAN Wai-yip Hon WONG Yuk-man Members absent: Dr Hon David LI Kwok-po, GBM, GBS, JP Hon LEUNG Yiu-chung Hon Andrew CHENG Kar-foo Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting, GBS, JP Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee, SBS, JP Hon WONG Kwok-hing, MH Hon Ronny TONG Ka-wah, SC Hon CHIM Pui-chung Dr Hon LAM Tai-fai, BBS, JP Dr Hon LEUNG Ka-lau Hon LEUNG Kwok-hung
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Public officers attending: Mr Stanley YING, JP Permanent Secretary for Financial
Services and the Treasury (Treasury) Ms Esther LEUNG, JP Deputy Secretary for Financial
Services and the Treasury (Treasury) 1Ms Elsie YUEN Principal Executive Officer (General),
Financial Services and the Treasury Bureau (The Treasury Branch)
Mr Raymond C Y TAM, JP
Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs
Mr Joshua C K LAW, JP Permanent Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs
Mr Gordon C T LEUNG, JP Deputy Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs (1)
Mr Freely K CHENG Principal Assistant Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs (3)
Mr Ivanhoe CHANG Administrative Assistant to Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs
Mrs Fanny C F LAW FAN, GBS, JP Head of the Chief Executive-elect's Office
Ms Alice Y LAU, JP Secretary-General of the Chief Executive-elect's Office
Mr Raymond H C WONG, JP Permanent Secretary for the Civil Service
Mrs Ingrid P Y YEUNG HO, JP Deputy Secretary for the Civil Service (1)Mr Johann C Y WONG Deputy Commissioner for Innovation
and Technology Miss Rosanna LAW, JP Deputy Commissioner for Tourism Ms Rebecca PUN, JP Deputy Secretary for Transport and
Housing (Transport) 2 Ms Grace K Y LUI, JP Deputy Secretary for Development
(Works) 1 Mrs Avia LAI Deputy Secretary for Home Affairs (3) Clerk in attendance: Mr Andy LAU Assistant Secretary General 1 Staff in attendance: Mr Jimmy MA Legal Adviser
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Mr Timothy TSO Assistant Legal Adviser 2 Ms Anita SIT Chief Council Secretary (1)5 Mr Derek LO Chief Council Secretary (1)6 Mr Anthony CHU Senior Council Secretary (A)2 Mr Daniel SIN Senior Council Secretary (1)7 Ms Queenie LAM Senior Legislative Assistant (1)2 Mr Frankie WOO Senior Legislative Assistant (1)3 Ms Christy YAU Legislative Assistant (1)8 ________________________________________________________________ Item No. 1 - FCR(2012-13)43 RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE ESTABLISHMENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON 11 JUNE 2012 Item No. 2 - FCR(2012-13)44 NEW HEAD "GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : CULTURE BUREAU" NEW HEAD "GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : COMMERCE AND INDUSTRIES BUREAU
(MARITIME, AVIATION, LOGISTICS AND TOURISM BRANCH)"
HEAD 152 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT BUREAU (COMMERCE, INDUSTRY AND TOURISM BRANCH)
HEAD 55 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT BUREAU (COMMUNICATIONS AND TECHNOLOGY BRANCH)
HEAD 138 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : DEVELOPMENT BUREAU (PLANNING AND
LANDS BRANCH) HEAD 159 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : DEVELOPMENT BUREAU (WORKS
BRANCH) HEAD 53 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : HOME AFFAIRS BUREAU HEAD 142 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : OFFICES OF THE CHIEF SECRETARY
FOR ADMINISTRATION AND THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
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HEAD 96 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : OVERSEAS ECONOMIC AND TRADE
OFFICES HEAD 158 – GOVERNMENT SECRETARIAT : TRANSPORT AND HOUSING BUREAU
(TRANSPORT BRANCH) HEAD 62 – HOUSING DEPARTMENT HEAD 74 – INFORMATION SERVICES DEPARTMENT The Committee continued discussion on items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44 on the funding proposals related to the proposed re-organization of the Government Secretariat. The Chairman advised that the meeting would adjourn at around 8:35 pm and the third FC meeting would start at around 9:00 pm. She said that as the House Committee had resumed after the first Finance Committee (FC) meeting, the second and third FC meetings were slightly deferred, but she assured members that the third meeting would be adjourned not later than 11:00 pm. 2. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan moved a motion under paragraph 39 of the FC Procedure to adjourn the discussion of agenda items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44. The Chairman said that as specified in paragraph 39 of the FC Procedure, each member could only speak once and for not more than three minutes on the motion, unless the Committee decided otherwise on the speaking time. Mr Albert CHAN, Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr CHAN Kam-lam and Dr Margaret NG expressed views on the speaking time arrangement for each member. The Chairman concluded that the FC Procedure and the established practice should be followed. 3. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr KAM Nai-wai, Dr Margaret NG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Mr Albert CHAN, Ms Audrey EU and Mr IP Kwok-him spoke on the motion. Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs (SCMA) responded on the motion. Mr LEE Cheuk-yan gave his concluding remarks. 4. The Chairman put Mr LEE Cheuk-yan's motion to vote. At the request of members, she ordered a division. The Chairman announced that 16 members voted for the motion and 30 members voted against it. The individual results were as follows – For:
Mr Albert HO Chun-yan Mr LEE Cheuk-yan Mr Fred LI Wah-ming Dr Margaret NG Mr James TO Kun-sun Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong
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Ms Audrey EU Yuet-mee Mr LEE Wing-tat Dr Joseph LEE Kok-long Mr Ronny TONG Ka-wah Mr KAM Nai-wai Ms Cyd HO Sau-lan Mr Alan LEONG Kah-kit Miss Tanya CHAN Mr Albert CHAN Wai-yip Mr WONG Yuk-man (16 members)
Against:
Ir Dr Raymond HO Chung-tai Mr CHAN Kam-lam Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun
Dr Philip WONG Yu-hong
Mr WONG Yung-kan Mr LAU Kong-wah Mr LAU Wong-fat Ms Miriam LAU Kin-yee Mr TAM Yiu-chung Mr Abraham SHEK Lai-him Ms LI Fung-ying Mr Tommy CHEUNG Yu-yan Mr Vincent FANG Kang Mr WONG Kwok-hing Mr Jeffrey LAM Kin-fung Mr Andrew LEUNG Kwan-yuen Mr CHEUNG Hok-ming Mr WONG Ting-kwong Prof Patrick LAU Sau-shing Ms Starry LEE Wai-king Mr CHAN Hak-kan Mr CHAN Kin-por Dr Priscilla LEUNG Mei-fun Mr WONG Kwok-kin Mr IP Wai-ming Mr IP Kwok-him Mrs Regina IP LAU Suk-yee Dr PAN Pey-chyou Mr Paul TSE Wai-chun Dr Samson TAM Wai-ho (30 members)
The Chairman declared that Mr LEE Cheuk-yan's motion was negatived. The Committee would continue to discuss the items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44. 5. Ms Cyd HO, Mr KAM Nai-wai, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr James TO, Dr Margaret NG, Mr CHEUNG Man-kwong, Mr KAM Nai-wai, Mr Albert HO and Miss Tanya CHAN continued to speak on the how the date of FC's approval of the items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44 might affect the effective date of the proposed resolution on the transfer of statutory power associated with the re-organization of the Government Secretariat, and the related legal issues. At the Chairman's invitation, Legal Adviser gave his views on the related legal issues. Head of the Chief Executive-elect's Office, SCMA and Permanent Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury (Treasury) responded to members' views and questions. 6. Mr LAU Kong-wah suggested that members' speaking time should be further shortened from three minutes to two minutes as members were no
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longer focusing on the main agenda items. The Chairman reiterated that she had no authority to restrain members from asking questions, but she acknowledged some members had spoken many times already. She would consider shortening the speaking time after a few more rounds of questions. 7. In response to Mr LAU Kong-wah's enquiry, the Chairman said that a member might propose to move motions under paragraph 37A of the FC Procedure without notice in order to express views on an agenda item. The written form of motions received from members so far might not represent all the motions FC had to deal with for the two items under deliberation. 8. Dr Margaret NG and Mr Albert CHAN spoke on items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44. Head of the Chief Executive-elect's Office and SCMA responded to members' views and questions. 9. The Chairman ordered that the speaking time for each member would be shortened from three minutes to two minutes, including the Administration's response. She urged members to put their questions concisely. Mr James TO, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mrs Sophie LEUNG, Mr WONG Ting-kwong and Mr WONG Yuk-man expressed views on the Chairman's decision. The Chairman upheld her decision. 10. Mr James TO, Mr WONG Sing-chi, Ms Cyd HO and Mr Albert CHAN spoke on items FCR(2012-13)43 and FCR(2012-13)44. SCMA and Deputy Secretary for Constitutional and Mainland Affairs (1) responded to members' views and questions. 11. The meeting was adjourned at 8:34 pm. (Verbatim transcript of the proceedings of this meeting is at the
Appendix.) Legislative Council Secretariat 3 October 2012
陳淑莊議員:可不可以 . . . . . . 主席:你盡快做吧。 陳淑莊議員:可不可以承諾? 主席:你再排隊。涂謹申議員。 涂謹申議員:我問的就是剛剛在桌上的 6月 22日有一個問責官員的守則 . . . . . . 黃成智議員: . . . . . .英文那一份 . . . . . . 涂謹申議員: . . . . . .英文那一份,OK,是否沒有中文的?主席。 黃成智議員: . . . . . .沒有 . . . . . . 涂謹申議員:沒有,OK。 主席:是的,對,你請說。 涂謹申議員:我就用英文吧。就 7.1、 7.4和 7.5,或者我先問 7.4和7.5,我看見 7.4是說如果有問責官員收到告票,或者那些叫 letter before action,即是說我可能會告你那些。但是它裏面就是說"arising out of his employment or official duties"即一定要與他的職務有關,換句話說譬如,他家庭爭產,但可能影響到政府的名
聲,是不需要的,如果我這樣看。OK,但是 7.5就很有趣, 7.5就說如果他牽涉在任何的刑事程序,但是就 "whether arising out of his employment or official duties or otherwise"那就是說一個就有"whether",就刑事,即係可能同 . . . . . .他只是 involve而已 . . . . . .他沒有說被人控告, "involve"其實頗闊的。OK,為甚麼一個會這樣,一個就不需要呢?有沒有特別的,是否有特別的考慮,參考過甚麼
操守 "Code for Officials under the Political Appointment System",不知為甚麼,有沒有中文,這份文件? 主席:還沒有,是吧? 陳偉業議員:沒有。 主席:第幾段? 陳偉業議員:主席,我是針對其實之前那些跟進的問題,是涉及
到這個 1.3(2)那部分,這裏說明政治委任的那些應該是 "uphold the rule of law"。即遵守法律,以及要捍衛尊嚴,即 public office的尊嚴。你看 1.3涉及到幾方面的事情,就是一連串基本的原則,你去到後面,剛才都提到 7那部份, 7.3至 7.8,即涉及到法律程序,這些法律程序裏面所包括的事情,基本上有不少是涉及這個,剛才
有部分涉及到刑事其他各方面。
但是,關於剛才我所說的 1.3(2)那部分,特別關於那個即"protect the integrity of public office",即如果他有違反這部分如何處理呢?我看這些文件是沒有涉及在內,為甚麼要提這東西呢?
因為現在最大的問題就是梁振英傷害了 梁振英現在的行為明顯是傷害了這一個 "the integrity of public office",說謊話,及僭建問題。