Legislative Council Hansard 1914 - Queensland Parliament

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

TUESDAY, 18 AUGUST 1914

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Adjournment. [18 AuQusx.] Mourityan, Etc., Tramways Bill. 593

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, 18 AUGUST, 1914.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN (Han. W . . !!'. Taylor) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPERS.

The following papers, laid on the table, were ordered to be printed:-

Report of the Inspector of Hospitals for tho Insane for 1913.

Regulations, of date 6th August, under th<' State Forests and National Parks _ \ct of 1906.

Regulations, of date 13th August, under the Land Act of 1910.

R<>port of the University of Queensland for 1913.

Report of the Secretary for Public In­struction for 1913.

Report of tho Official Trustee in Insol­venr-y, Brisbane, for 1913.

MOURILYAN AND GERALDTON TRAMWAYS BILL.

SECOND READING.

HoN. .\. H. BARLOW said: This is a Bill to validate two agreements made be­tween the Commissioner for Railways, the limited liability company known as the Mourilyan Syndicate, and the Johnstone Shire Council. If han. members refer to tho map they will se~ that the object of this Bill is to pgtablish cmr.munication between the valuable back country and the deep-water harbour ,at Mourilyan. The Johnstone Shire Council have agreed to sell their railway, marked in gre<'n on the map, with appur­tenances, to the Commissioner for Railways for the sum of .£34,500. They already owe the Government .£59,615, and this purchase money is to be applied in reduction of their debt. That will leave them with a debt of .£25,115, unfortunately represented by noth­ing. and they will have to pay redemption on a thirty-seven y<'ars' loan. The original loau was for fortv vears, but certain arrPar" were consolidated, • and it was co:rr.muted into a thirty-seven years' loan, the redemp­tion money amounting to .£109 per annum. That is certainly not a pleasing position, hut it is bPtter than nothing at all. The Mourilyan Syndicate have agreed to sell their assets, conclisting of about 6 miles 30 chains of railway, for £12,100. In order that the connection with the Mourilyan Har­bour may be made it will be necessary for the Governrr.ent to make a little bit of rail­way of 1 mile 69 chains, which is marked on the map in red. Considering the circum­stances of the cas<'. the Railwavs Act of 1906 -that is, the 3 per cent. deficic;ncy businPss-· will not apply. It will be rather hard to apnly that Act to a district which is already suffering a good deal as the result of a bad hargain, as I understand it. It is not in our power to alter the agreement, because it has been signed, and the business of the Council is to validate this agreement if hon. mem· hers are agreeable. I have no doubt some han. members on the other side know the place; I have never been there. The bargain

Hon. A. H. Barlow.]

594 Mourilyan and Geraldton [COUNCIL.] Tramways Bill.

is believed to be advantageous to all parties. I therefore beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

lioN. G. W. GRAY: The Minister has stat<'d that this is a bad bargain. This raii­tvay dates baDk to the opeu1ug up oi this district in 18;;2. A" I claiin to be the pioneer of the di,;tnct, l know its histor". The. :!'.'1ourilyan Company colhi .ted o£ J a.;tes Gul­lan.U, who was a retired colliery p·opri,tor of Ipswicl1; R. R Smelli!•, of the f.uuudry in Ali0o street h>re; and Ylr. ~nsh, a :,uec<.. s ,cful retired gr.aziPr, '\t'ho rnadr his 1noncy on· Charters Tov~·crs. The ",e three InPn ff, 1l in love with the district--a, many of us <lid-at fir,t sight, because undou: .tc·dh it is one of the tiggcst tropic3-l :i -:-, ts po·:·Je""-'d by thl· Government of this State. The distric: io abuut b0 1111h_" L,y v\) >~1les, a11d its valnt• has been attested by the best expat.. of tho Co:onial Sugar ltefining L:,J~:._._tLH1y, '~ ho. bdore they acquired 12,000 um·e·;, s•,nt th<:ir be· t experts Ep, who pro11ounuxl tte cliFL·ict second to no tropical ·tbtrict in th ';oriel. It wa'l an abEvlute lll'\'t-,,sity to conlH:-_t l\1ourilyan Harbour an'' };1ouril. an planta­tion by rail ~o t:nahle i}wrn to ~,·ct up their machinery. as the water in the south kanch of the Johnstor,e HivPr '',as so shal:ow that it was irnpm-siblo to {;onv0y it bv wah~L Like everybody else, they had to p'ay about £6 an acre to ckar the plantation. I kno .. it cost me £6 an ucn' to <:tar about 600 acres, and tlHl \York at 11onrilyan was about the e~me. It looks a little ,{nd··rtaking- to bu1ld a 1railway 7 nr 8 mil<.; in len!;tlt, hut l can tell hon. member" that thP contra· t \Y<U lt>t to three diif.prult railwa v cont··a< ~or·•, all of whom LHl sucr1· ·sfullv constructl•d railwa\.; in this Stat<'. The fir,'t two .,·ho undertook tlw wo•·k fai>d to ~mild tho line. The third I knew very well-;\h·. Ba."hford, who was in hi dc .. v the mo"t suc­Chsful railway contractor in QnPf'ns'a·:d. He took his navvies un there, and I rco.n"'"­ber that when I wcnt un to stnrt m. mill on(' SmKlay, th" let" Dr. O'Dohcrty 'and I walkE•d over that railwav when the wo··k of construction was in full 'swing, and in every tent all the> men were down with fever and a~UP, it '•' as the WOrst di-._tri ·t for fever and agUC' on thn coa,t. 11r. Ba,hford. after spending a greflt d1•:1l of mane~·. had to fall hack upon Chine•;e labour. Pr0viouslv-I do not kno\v whether it 11· as part of the lJar(\uin or not-al] thP. cont-.-actors had f)tnplDvPd white men. but ev2ntuallv Mr. Bashford had to give it up, and lw brot;ght dm; n Chinarrwn from C:noktown. At th .. t time there was a large numh•r of Chinese tht're, and he built the re1ilwas with tlw ~i<l of thoe.J Chinamen. n was a ~re"t object lr~>on to Sir Samuel Griffith. who 11as thcn Pre:nicr, when he went to Mourilvan and was haukd over tho line-whoch was then 4-nfinishcd-by China­mrm. I in'ibnce that to show the difficulties that the pionem:; in th<tt district ha.d to en­counter. Bd0"e this r?.ih; ac· was comp~etcd it cost the proprietors of Mourilvan plhn­tation hctwc0n £30,000 and £ !0,000. For a long tim0 th~ pr•onle of the district have been v0ry anxious for the Go,·crnment to take ov0r the line, as thPv took ovcr the linN belonging to the Johnstone Shire Council some time ago. But for the lines built bv the shire council. the district would riot b:, the prosperous place it is to-{la.v. \Vhen I C<tl! it a prosperous diRtrict, I sunpose it will turn out somcthin~>: like 15.000 tons of sugar this year, end at £10 a ton for raw sugar

[Hon. A. H_ Barl()w.

that is a very big thing. I may state, from my own knowledge, that the district to-clay is one of the healthiest on the Queensland coast. Had it not been for the advent of the trams, the district would never have been opened up. I had to adopt the same system on the plantation in which I was interested as managing director and a big partner. There was a network of trams right through, with the aid of ''· hich we "ere able to carry on our undertaking. To tho,;e who have not seen this harbour at Mourilyan, I may say that it is a minature of Sydnr·y Harbour, and is one of th<; beet deep-v;ater ports on tho Quc<.msland coast. There wero some. obstaclec in the shape of rocks at the en­trance, which c lw-ed a great raCt' of "\Vater in and out, hut, notwithstanding that, the medium sized steamers on the coact were able to go in <tn.J out with their c.ugo<'F. Recently tho Government have blasted these rocks awa0-, ancl. it is now one of the prettiest little poets in QtwonslancL I welcome this Bill. This is a thing which tho Govermw: nt should hav dor o long ago, ""-hen they \Vore asked to do it in the interests of the district and of sotrJo~h,nL \Vhat i,, now pro;Jo:cad is a short line to link up tho two line", which will nrable a Yorv larrre export of bananas and other peri•chable fruit to talw place from these large cent·cs. Tho area of the shire is very larg-e, and with a ·deep sea port they can g. t their produce away without lighter­ing it. I am very glad as one of the pioW'''rs-in fact, as the pioneer-of this district to co nplimGnt the Government, even at thi late hour, in taking in hand by a Bill of th's sm·t the linking up of the two lim"· \Vhon that is d·Jn<'. visitors to that ddrict will t>c able to go by one of the big bnats to the ::Wourilyan wharf. and travel by rail ovc· the district, uN1 it will be one of the most imtructive visits that one could possibly make upon the Australian coast. Th~~r' a,~n trenv,ndous profits in bananas. The men in thnt district put :r,o snckcr.' into an a0re of ground. and it hrinrrs tlwm within tv.0lve months 400 bunches of bananas. I hav~: SP0!l thm;e bt!nar,as rp~.Jising ls. 6d. a bn'lch. and during that period of twelve. znonths. whil~t the sndrers arf' gro,ving. they < an get t,.;o crops ol ncaize. It is a district with t·P'11endous r('sonr"c~. and now that the fever awl ague he.vc l0ft it, and with a rail­wav linking qp the other two P1ilways, I pre­clid a grPat futnre for the Johnstone River district. (Hear, hear!)

floN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I regret to say that I do not view the Bill in the same li'Tht '" the Hon. Mr. Gray docs. It is a ~treat pity that the Government have undertaken the responsibility for these two tramlines, and I think it would haYe bonn better if th!'v had ad anted the scheme ,.:hich • was sugg-oRt0d some thr('e or four yc:ars a.go of linking up the two tramlines, and hand­ing them over to an authority to be con­stituted in the distriet-namelv, the John­stone Shire Council-and letting them run the tramlinfls. I do not think that it is a good idea for the Government to take over a 2-ff'et gauge line at any time.

Han. G. W. GR.\Y: 2-feet 6-inch gauge.

Ho:-:r. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I think you will find the 1\iourilyan line has a gauge of 2 feet. The Johnstone Shire Council line, I am pretty sure, is a 2-feet line. No doubt the Johnstone Shire Council and the Mouril-

M ourilyan and Geraldton [18 AUGUST.] Tramways Bill. 595

yan Syndicate arc making a very good thin~~ out of it. They are gettmg the as~ets taken over at a value of £2,000 per mile·-a 2-feet gauge line-and I think that is too much.

Hon. G. W. GRAY: That is with rolling­stock?

lioN. A,. G. C. HAWTHORN: With rolling-stock an~ everything. I would very much have preferred that the Government should have carried out the scheme out­lined in 1910 for buildi,lg the North Coast Railwav line on the 3-feet 6-inch line from l\Iourilyan down to Ingham. The money was pa,•scd for that undertaking, and the whole scheme wa~ to cover about 460 miles, yet. in four y<'ars, although a large amount of that loan money has been spent, only about 90 miles of that connection has been built. Personally, I w0uld far rather have sePu that go on and that the •e tramways should not have been touched, because it ~emns that it is an intimation by the Go­vernment that they do not intend to go on with the North Coast Railway when they pay practically £59,000 for what must be very largelv a worn-out railway and rolling­stock gene;ally, seeing that they have ~een down so very many years. I would certamly have preferred to see the Government go on with the 3-fet,t 6-inch railway, and allow th<' local authorities who are most interested still to carry on tlwse tramways. I think that if they had done that, and the Trea­surm· had compelled them to levy rates suffi­f'icnt to carry it on, it would have been far better for thP Government and the people of Queensland. Now, of course, the John­stone Shiro Council will take over a respon­sibilitv of £25.000, and I suppose they will carrv · on the same old line of action that they' have done in the past.

Hon, G. W. GRAY: They have the respon­sibility at present.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: They will not meet their debts, and the only way was to have tak<m a strong hand with them, and that would have b""n done three or four years rcgo had it not been for the idea that this North Coast Railway would haYe been completed. That would have run through Mourilyan right up north and joined up Ingham with Brisbane and our North Coast Railway 1;enerally. I hope that it will turn out all right, but it R~ems to me that the peopl" who arc g tt:ng the best ont of the deal are the 1\Io·,ri'yan Sugar Svndicate and thl'• Johmtone Shioc Council, who are gf'tting rid of a V<'ry poor as~et at what I consider a very good price, indeed. (Hear, hear!)

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I do not know enough about this line either to oppose it or to speak with any confidence in favour of it; but thor<> is a principle in it which I think might be mentioned. The principle appears to be this: that there is a line in a sugar district which is apparent! v not paying, and there is a large amount due to the Governm<>nt in connection with it. ft is now desired to extend it to a port-which is a very good port, no doubt-and the Go­vernment are taking ovE'r the existing line and finrling the money to connect it with that port. If I haC! to d<>al w;th that as a business matter, I should prefer to lend the local author'ty the neressary amount of money to extend the present line to the

port. If we are going to take over a line that was originally established for . the pur­pose of carrymg sugar-cane and p_oss1b y son;l8 bananas, will similar _cases occur m _other dis­tricts? If we are gomg to be consistent, we must adopt the principle generally, and take over these lines in any district wherever people may _want us. That is_ the danger I see if we commit our,clves to this, and yet there ruu."·t bo sorno strong ro:.hon fur 1t or (·lse I do not suppose the measure would have been brought in by the Government and pac,~ed in another place. But I confess that to mo the reason does not appear to be very strong. I should be very 'ony to_ '·C.e the principle carried too far 1n other dtstrwts.

Ho:>. E. \Y. H. FO\YLEB: We have all had an opportunity of reading tlu.?se ugr~cments, and l'robably oo ,dP of us !;ave lu:d frequent opportuniti\'S of visiting tlns distnct. I '?0'',­fess a nurnLer of cliHiculties arose in rn.y nund, but ,,,ost of them have been s\\ept a·>'ay by the tv o speeches delivered in another place on 4th ~\ng-uot. No c'.ou1 t, hon. mom~ers have had an ·opportunity vf c:,rcfully re:dmg, th_o:;e bvo ;pee :.os whieh met many of the obJec­tions which ha vc been raiserl this afternoon, ard some of the objeciions havr' alca been ,, •Hept ,, wa,y by the explanation given. by. the l-Ion. i\Ir. llray. Four out of five objectwus which I v.w, ,co:,;; lu raise myself h:~vc been alrcadv met by the lucid spepche., "·lnch ha vc b(een 'made, but I would like still _to ask "'vhat has been thP pereP1~tugo. of narrnn. cl ~n th€ 1Iouril0an Railway smcc It was rmlt m 1G52, and what is tho estimated JWrcentage of earuino·s \Yithin t!1e nPxt t~/,'O or t}Hf'O years? The 1~rchase price is £12,10(!, but it cost, the Hon. Mr. Gray informs us, between £30,000 and £40,000.

Han. G. \V. GRAY: Do you mean the tram­line!

Ho". E. W. H. FOIYLES: The :Mourilyan Syndicate Tramline, which is 6!, miles long. This is tlw smaller line belonging to the :!Uour'lvan Svndi· .1tc, ,,-hich •Yas laid rlo·qn in 1882~ and "which is being sold for £12,}-00. It ,., as aslced if that included the rollmg-­stock but if you look at the agree·nent you will 'find it does not include the rolling-­stock.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: That goes to the Liverpool Creek line.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes. it goes to the other tram. It certainlY does include the v.harf. That has cost <,ome morh J . . u;d perhaps ,.e can lParn what ha• been sv'nt on the wharf and what it has been p•tt down for as a'1 a•·set to-dav. At all evenh, we must reali~c that aft0r thirt-,-two years a 2-feet tramline which has been in pretty eonstant use will not be worth much at the present time. As aga.i11st that, Wfl have t!_lo expert V~ 1 lll:ttion by the Rai!Hav Dernrtment, and £12.100, as I uuder·ctand ·fro1n- the specche,, in anorlwr place, was the value put npon it, not by the :\louril­yan ~ynclic~to, but l>;1' the Hai'" ty D<'l' •n­ment: so that, us far es the Raih; ay Dep.trt­ment- is c~1nCC'rtH'cl. tlwy are qnite &.~~i:-fi(ld to vet this 6b miles of railway for £12.100. I made inqniriPs about the ordinnry ('n<.;t of a 2-feet gaurre line, and I find that :f1,200 a rni]e is r0rra.rded us a very lib<'ral amount to give, and I learnt aftnr-.mnls that it depenrlPcl upon the nature of the countrv. The countn· in this di ;triet for mnny mi.les in flood tinie is from 2 fpet to 20 fret nndE'r wat<'r, and the reason why the l'i'orth Coast Railwu;~; is not built is simply hecau•c after two "urvoys by

Hon. E. W. H. Fowle~~.l

5!)6 Mourilyan and Geraldton [COUNCIL.] 1'ramways Bill.

the l~,:cilway Departm,mt they were uwd le to find a :;uitable route for the ra"il way that would bo freP from flood.

Hon. B. :FAH1·:Y: Not without making a very long clPtou.r.

lioN. E. W. lL FU\'.LJ;;S: ='-iot ,,ithout ~laking a v~·t~Y. long deLJ_ur io ft1~· range 111 the V\ e~lt. lh1s. prupo,-·<11 1s a vt'rY P>~cellPnt. temporary expedient ior the district." l do not. think ior one 1110nH nt that ·,, e ean fhut: odt the people of lnnisfail and ~llouri;Yau liarbour frorn havn1g coHn~_~l:;tion v,ith the ".0\orth Co.a:·:~ Railway, but 1 beliuve c:v.c at ihc prc"··<mt HlOITlLHt the COllll•_,_,tion of tlw~e h·,·o 1 u;i\', ,. , h

by that 14 1nile ol 1inL' '\ill nH:dn (>J~ ·-ideraL"i<• conv<>nie.tce to the di-co"·ict" The £l2.1GO pai,i to the i\louril;. ,J_n D:,·n-lic:-JtP do'f"c· uol: ''_:_t( L' ii,to the ,,tatter at a 11; that i:; tho Haib :tY Depart­nwnt's price. \·T·ith ret~urcl to the ct( ;: liiJl' of 21~ miles, the rmsm1, I take it, fot· thi" being taken uvL~r by :he UovulnnwHt is tha.t the 8hire of J9h;1_:.~tun<~ :i,c; n~all_y ~:~ l'BY~'li.1g under a debt ot ;_;bJ,OOO to the Govcr_tntten;.. an~ ~-,Lr;liot DIL -;t t~H~ _i~ltcr, ·L and ::_·~:d<'Inpt.i.on~ ana rt L the Y;l t thin~ for th0 CoVL'l'Uiu-'ll.._, to stc) in and Ld\.e i· over. .\.l: 1'-rcw th·J.t. ~me ~~l~ire coall·'ils have got a l1army k11U· l\: o_r I~wJune-. public utilities pay. Th._c: Cairn~ !1ne~ i. bt>hCVP, i3 r• ~-ing,. and the ... \yr lino Hi I{HYl.l_l~ a.t thn rJn ~· 1 'Ilt tuue_. UllU the local anLHJl'ltH ., <Jo not ·.':aL.t tho t~O\TJ'ilUl{'l to take these !me, oYer.

Hon. C. :F. XIELSON: The Government h :ve already tuken those lii>cs over.

H_o:;;. Jc. W. II. FOWLES: This line is not payn1~~;, t!nd the. r~·ason why it it~ not paying ''! h<•c""u ·"

1 tho !me runs right along8ide the

nv_cr, a:1d ~0.000 bunches of banantJc" have been goiilf; a1.-:·ay by~\', at;~ cve.ry .week at <1 freight ?f ld. P'-~ ht~ncn. lnat I·~ £42 u ''1\'L .. "'k, \-.;luch 1s .over ,;t;2,CDO a ynar, and that has been g<:m~; on fo~ th~ last ten years in connection with th0 chlp[lm~ companies. The railway

cannot nompcte against th:c,t, and [4 p.m.] th9 tra.do wJ:;ich otJght to go to

. th1s rmlway 1s really going to the en>all. shiJY' that run up and down the river. If thts lnw of 1 mile 69 chains is built be­twPer~ tho :shire. lin?s and the :1\Iourilyan Syndtc"1tc hrw, 1t Will take all the maize, sugar, and b~n:mas down to the deep-water port of ::Wourilyan. I li·arn from the Har­bour' and Hiv<'ro D"partmont that the port has now a depth of 26 feet-which is an ex­cellent donth for a Northern port-"·and a channd 170 _feet wide, so that ships of 2"000 tons 0211 eas!l"v enter the harbour and berth at the very wharf which the Government is now taking over. The onl:v difficultv which seems to rc·main is whether the Johnstone Shire Coun<eil will be able to bear the burden of the .£25.000 that is still owing. I seo that tho agTe>nm(~nt runf! " In partial cxtino-uishrnent of the debt." 'l'~at is a very ~lasti'c phrase. The sh1re counCil aro to rec·mve credit for .£3~,500 of a debt of .£59,000, IE:.wing .£25,000 owmg.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Ye3, but their liabilih will be less, because it is over a shorter period"

Ho~. E. W. H. FOWLES: That is ''o. It comes to about .£5 per cent. per annum for interest and redemption. Thev mav be able to meet the liability on a debt of .£25,000 when it would be absolutely hope]cqs for them to continue pavment of intere;;t a;,d redemp­tion on .£59.000. The agreement has been

[Han. E. W. H. Fowles.

signed by tho Treasurer, who we may be sure~ with his advi:;ers in another place, will take very good care that he is not going to give more than the line is worth. As a matter of fact, the shire line works out at .£1,622 per milo, and the Mourilyan Syndicate line works out at .£1,861 per mile.

Hon. A. A. DAVEY : It would not cost that to build them now.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not at the present time. Stilt the money has been sunk in them.

Hon. A. G. C. l{A WTHORN : What about the thirty years' depreciation?

Ho~. E. \Y. II. FOWLES: Certainly, ther0 is thirty years' depreciation to be" allowed for, but there are pro,,pocts of ex­cPllent trade over all those lines if this small eonn0C'tion of lirll' of lc <s than 2 miles is mLclP between the two systems. I would like to a k ''"hethH any e<lt.im.:tte hos been made of the probable e;ornings during the next thro<' years, and what is the Yalue as an a .. ,,et of the "harf at Mourilyan Harbour?

HaN. W. V. BRO\VN: I have not studied the details of this measure at all, but I would ju,t like to point out to han. members that, so far a~ our infonnaf ion t'xtend~. the on1y rort ii.t for intr,r-,ta'U"' i:·ade bet\veen CJjrn; and C\trd11 Pll is J'\Iourilyan Harbour. and it is verv df'·iruble th:,t th·' Hailwav J)rpa~>'hnmlt should c~nli-.rol any rn l~'\vuy ruri­nilH~ tu that harbour. lt W\'u1d novf'l' do to have two lint'.; of n:dhvay running there. rr}H'rt\ V, -'\'' VPry great. fl}fl-icu}ty in building the l\Iourilvan line. and \Yn n1u-t not com­pare its <'<iet with" th•e cost of building a ~:irnilar line i:n f'lear. opc,n ("_,untry at the pn ,,_,nt time. Th" difliculti<'' of con·.trudion ''','?re Pl~orn1ou,, and if thP Government -,.-ant0d to n1a1:0 any irnproYPIDC'Ht;:) in the d1:~tr1ct or a.11v exton::.:ion into the irtorior th0v wou]cl ni'ecl to u"' thi lim'. I think aleci that if th,, tn,ffic which ha:; been g-oing do"\. n the .T ohnstone River for a great n1any year,.. is divPrtcd to :\Tourilyan Harbour­and I have no doubt that will happen when thi~ connection is completed--it will be a very p1yablc propositimL I do not think we ~~.ro runn1ng any risk in sanctioning the com­pletion vf this agreement.

HoN. U. F. NIELSON: The only quc;,tion we have to comicler i'; wh,,+hcr the Govern· InPUt have clone a right thing in coming to the a ,si .tance of the landowners in the dis­trict in connE'ction with thf'ir indebtedness to the GoYornmPnt. Thi3 is a verv 1 ich di,triet, and there is ab~oluteh- no 'rea·JOJ1 ''"hy the ratcpayPrs of the Innisfail distriat e.houlcl not be rcquir0d to meet their obliga· tions to the Govcrmn('nt tho same as t lw ratepa~·ers in any dher district. I have bPen through this district. Land that is valt1ed commereially for sale at £30 an acre is valued for rating purposes at .£3 per acre, with a very low rate at that. It simp!y amounts tn this-that th0 Government are coming to tho relief of ratepavE'rs who have rdm'-,•d to value their lands and rate them­solve" decently and honestly for the purpose of meeting their oblig-2>tions. But that is not a new matter. Li,t•, of local auth0rities have been read out in this Chamber before Pow which are in arrears to the Government, and this was the wor<t example in all Queen•land. So far as the value of tho line goes, it is a. few years since I saw it, and

Mourilyan, Etc., Tramways Bill. [18 AuGUST.] Bowen Harbou1· Board Bill. 597

no doubt that is a matter for the experts who valu d the line, but it is due to hon. nwinbt,r:-: to give th0m information regarding tho value of tlw l\lourilyan Tramwav as die­tinguished from the vahic of the wharf. The <'lass of tramway that the J\Iourilyan Syndi. cate own can bP built anywhere in QuGc:L'· land for about £80() to £1,0:'') per mile, and b0 built well and substant-ially at that price. If hon. members will read tho report of the Commissioner fc.1· Railwavs, thcv "ill lind that wo have had 3-ff'<>t 6-inch linc3 tabled th0 a.vorago cost of \vhich was not rnorc than £2.000 per mil<'. Now, a 3-feet 6-inch line will cost probable·· at th0 very least., from one­third to on0-half more than 2-f""et lim•. In thL· first plac<'. thn slPP]'l<'rs e<rP lom•·er and 1norP are rPqnired pPl' 1nile. and. in th0 sPcond ph•<P. the weight- of rail will bP doublPrl. All through our district .,, e havP railway"; built on the 2-fppt p;aug-r•. I know of OllP plantntion Oll \Vhi<'h t,lu're Hl'C 40 InilC'-i built on tint ,.-,,u;m, ami, iriClu-·ling bridges, cutting~'· and f.\' crythir._f{ (\Ise. thPy have not cost mor,. than .£800 per mil<', and I may Inf'ntion t.hat tlH'r<~ n.rf' nu1nerou~ bridge;, in­c-ludPd in the work. Vl'ithin tlw laf't- eouplP of yp_-:rs thP 'Vno11garra ShirP Courwi} ha\ borrowr d £35.000 from t.hf' Gov<'rmm nt for thr- pnrp1: ~ of cnn~truf'ti:n;:-:' n linn whi<'h th<~ GovPriUllf'nt. tl onld not hi1ild. I b:·lievf' it is just about paying. although it has only recently berm opened. It is built on th" Gov0rnn10:lt gauge of 3 fp., t 6 in<'lH'"', ·with 42,~-lb. rails. and evf'r~.· thing up to nov~·rn­nH·nt ~pPr>ifi('ation::-. 'rhr- <·on:;;trurtion of that liw• rlirl not amount to wore than £2.300 per mile.

Hon. A .. \. D.\YEY: That was ch:ared land.

HoN. C. It'. ::\IELSO;'\;: 'l'h"r<' was not mtwh clearing.

Hrm. \V. V. BllOW)T: Bnt vou han• not a rainfall of 120 in~hcs a v<'ar. ·That makes all the differenc0. ·

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: I am quite aware of that, but the country at Innisfail, and partif'ularly at l\Iouril '• an, is rnad1• to meet a rainfall of 120 inche~ in the vear. lf vou had rainfall of 120 indws i;1 tlw Isis' or th0 \Voonr;:-arra districts, where thP subsoil is hard. overythir.;; would bP wa;;hed a"ay; but up tlwre the sub ... oil is sandv and the rain praetic,t!ly goc'< throug-h. Y ~u cannot eomparc tho two di,;triets in that respeet. ! an; perf cctly satisfit>d that a big present IS bemg ;na_d{• to the ratepayers of Innisfail. r::erha;ps It I" the bebt way out of the present srtnatwn, and the cheap<' .. t way in tho long \un ; but

0 the. <'OJ?-Struction. of tho connecting

Imk of 1;, mile IS not gomg to compel tho traffic that now goeR down th<' Johnston<' .River to go to Mourilyan by rail.

Hon. W. V. BROWN: I think it will.

Hox. C. F. NIRLSON: I am satisfied thai it will not. It is imnossible to carry material by r::i! in ~:omp~tition with water cnrriago. There arl' tunes m the vear when the China­men on the J ohnstono 'River can him their punts, or sampans, from InniPb .. il to :VIourilyan. Steflmors go up the riYer. I have gone up in one mvsolf. If the railwav officials art·. Bdisfiod that they are gc•tting a good bugam, the next question is that raised by the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn-whether it is a good thing for the GoY<'rnment to acquire any 2-fc·et gaug<:; line·. of railway at all, as a matter of pohey, and a-: a precedent for

-nther locul authorities who have entered into

engagprnpnts and want to slip out of thorn. If that is con,idered advisable, thPn it may be a very good thing to let thie Bill pas·,, hecausP WP mav at some future date have local authorities which have undertaken cer­tain liabilities for the construcUon of r P:-tain works ·which arE' not payin~ a11d \Yhich .are not work.:>d well, wanting to lmvP those works taken oYer bv the Government. The tramlinPs to Avr ,;nd Nel,(jn whieh have been takPn ovc1: bv the Govcrnn1ent f'annot bP com par< d "·ith thiF, because they arc both 3-fe"t 6-inch linr '· built on exactly the ·a-me :-:5 'jh:>n1 a.; the State raihvays.

lion. "\. G. C. H.\V.'Tl!ORX: And thc•v will both iorm part of the North Coast Ra1lway.

Hox. C. F. NIELSON: T<;xactlv. I a.m told that tlwm -,,ere an,- amount of ~atep,tyms in thoso two di,t.rids not at all anxious that the UoYci~nnH"Ilt should take o~.~pr thP lint'<, b<~hlUSfJ. th0y \YC'l"2 paying concerns. I an1 not going to ofif'r a.n;- opposition to th0 J?,[]! or to pit my r:~snal ob'<'rvatio:l of the line againn otw profc•s··iomd ill'll""tion of offici"l' of the Railwa.y l)ppart.nent. I sitEp:y hop<' th 't the dC'part 1;;J{l.nt ~:ill hf• ah~P tn m:dG' thi.;;. n iHtV­ing <:onc.)•rn) a.nd to gPt tradn tn thP ru il\v~y \\ hPrP th<' shire C•lUIH'il have failc-l. I am satisfied that thP port of Mourilyan nncl th<' town of J nni Jail requirP to be conneetr·d by rail. ancl I lwliev<' also that aft0r the Rcil­wtY 1J(_•pc.n·~·llll'llt ta.l ... (• ('ha:;:gP of ihP linP they will ~ome dav convNt it into a 3-fPct 6-inch line. to connc•d with othpr rnihvav SV''<i.c•:n · fn th<' meantime I am satisiiPd th,•v. •·cill run it be~-tPr and on <1 bc~ttPr connnC"l:C'iul ba:~is than tlw shirP ('Ouncil has don<'. (Hr'•tr. !war!)

Hox. A. H. BARLOW (in roply): I have bean vcr:> much interet-led in list0ning to the debate, and b0forP wo con,idcr tho Bill in Committee I will endeavour to got th-- infor­nlation that. hon. n1e1nbers want. I beFeve thrrt wlwn we started in (~U<'PIJFland with thP 3-foet 6-inch gaug-e--vdH~n we \vent in for lcnsrtb rathc1· than brc<adth---wP were told that it was a gimcrack railway that was of no us••. I hav0 read somewherp Jatr•ly that the possibilitic'< of the 2-fcet gauge have been verv much oxtPncled. and I lwlif'YP t.his rail­way wia bo a v<~lu:~bl,, ac"Jt.

llon. G. \Y. Grrn: NParly all tho railwaYti in India arc built on the 2-foot gaurro. '

Quf'stion--That the Rill be now rnad a ond tim<o---put and pa·'.scd.

The commitcal of th0 Bill was made an Order of t.hc l>a~- for the nPxt- sitting of the Council.

BOWI<;~ HARBOUR BOARD BILL.

SECOND READING.

Hox. A. H. BARLOW: This is a Bill to <i<•fin0 the limits of a harbour for Bowen and to constitutP a harbour board. The limits or the harbour are defined geographically in dause 3. The harbour board district is the area for the time being within the boun­daric:; of the town of BowPn, the shiros oi Proserpine and Wangaratta, a.nd division 1 of the shire of Ayr. ':'.!core is power to in­crease the number of elected mnmbers from five to seven. Claus<' 3, subclause (4-), pro­vide:5-

" The harbour board shall consist of seven n1mnbers.

Han. A. H. BarloU'.]

i98 Bowen Ha1·bour (COUNCIL.] Boa1·d Bill.

"Two of such members shall be ap­pointed b.Y the Governor in Council.

'' Five of such members shall be elected by the ratepayers of tho harbour board district.

"Subject to this Act, e~tch member shall hold office for three years."

Then paragraph (b) provides-" At the first and at every subsequent

elect:on, the whole number of the elected merr.bors of the board shall be elected, and at the conclusion of every election after the frrst all the late elected mem­bere of the hoard shall go out of office, unless they or any of them are re­elected."

I do not see myself whv, if members of the Central Legislature all go out of office at the same time. the members of town councils or shire councils should not all go out of office, and have one general election, eo as to sw<.'ep away all grievances and start afresh. That is a verv good provision, so far as I can judge·. Then paragraph (c) provides-

" No ratepayer shall be entitled to give more than three votes at an:v elec­tion of members of the board for a'n area or such division comprised within the harbour board district."

Th~n the Harbour Dues Act of 1892, and various other Harbour Actn, are to :apply until there is a gazetting of by-laws iixing and authorising the levying of harbour dueq. There is £26,200, at 4 per cent., to tho debit of tho harbour in the Treasury books, which is to be transferred to the harbour board account and to be deemed to be a loan ad­vanced b:>· the Treasnrer on the 1st da.y of January, 1915, for thirty-six years, at 4 per cent. That is to say, the debit balance in the Treasurer's books against the harbour is to be put upon the shoulders of the harbour board. Then there is a limitation as t<:> bor­rowing from the Treasurer, which amount is not to exceed a sum equal to eighteen times the :tvcrage annual income of the board, ex· elusiVe of loans. Then certain sections of the Lr>eal Authorities Act are quoted, which refer to notice of polls for loans. There is power to enforce payment of arrears, and the board may have an overdraft: but during the first year it shall not exceed a limit to be fixed by the Minister, and thereafter no overd!·aft qhall at any one time, or under any cJrcumsbnces, c>xceE'd one-fourth of the total income of the board, exclusive of loans, for tho previous yf''lr. These provisions are almost common to all Harbour Board Acts. Thf'n there comes an important provision which r<''Prvcs to the Crown the foreshore rights. \Vo had a long drscus,ion in a pre­vious soR,ion on the right of the Crown to the land between hi~h and lo•" water marks. It h made perfectly C'!ear that this land is not to ln voett>d in the board. The board may cause lenqes to be issued of wharfage land, Vf'>tod in them. and wharfage lands are exempt<:'d from rating. Regulations rr.av be mad0, and the board may accrpt the 'sur­render of a lease and grant it to a npw !0ssee. They may purchase land for provid­mg wharves, sheds. and othPr conveniences. Th0v are allowed to carrv on towag-e busineqs. Then there is tbc us;1al clause with reg.ard • 1 n dangerous and offensive goods, whwh. rf they ar.e not removed after notic", may be destroyed. That is the whole of the

[H on. A. H. Barlow.

Bill, which is an ordinary Harbour Board Bill for the harbour district of Bowen. I move that tlw Bill be road a second time.

HoN. A. G. C. IIA WTHORN: This is a. .. Bill we ca.n all support. I think the prin­ciple outlined in it is a very good one. It puts tho respomibility for any harbour works on the people who are going to pay the dues ;md to carry out the whole of tho works. The Bill is brought in on pretty much the same lines as the Cairns Harbour Board Act of 1905, which was very well considered, and which made now departures in many cases from the older form of Harbour Board Acts. introducPd before that. Several of the prin­ciples of the Bill are good, particularly the one that all the members should go out of office -at once. In the old days it was thout;ht that it was a good thing to have continuity of office, and that, therefore, the members· should go out in relays, a certain number one year. a certain number next year, and so on; but I think that idea is practically ex­ploded now, and it is just as well to give th0 ratepayers an opportunity, if they want it, to have entirely new blood after an election.

Han. P. J. LEAHY: Would it not be a good thing for the Senate also?

!-IoN. A. G. C. I-I A WTHORN: That is for i he Federal Parliament to determine. It would depend upon which side of politits we W<'r<' on. I have no doubt that the " Outs'' consider tho pre-;ont "'.Ystmn a good one, as far as tho Senate is concerned. Under the Bill, the ratepayers will also have an oppor­tunity, through the provisions ol the Local Authoritie,, Act, of saying whether they will have a loan or not. Thev will have an npportunity of opposing it. if they deRil'e to <.~o so. The basis of this Bill is entirely dif­ferent from that of the ot-her Bill which we Ita ve been discussing this ufternoon. Thi,, puts upon the members of the local authori­ties the responsibility for carrying out tho work; the other Bill, on the other hand, reli<'ved tho local authoriticc> of their respon­sibilities. It seems rather a strange thing that such utterly inconsistent principles should be brought in in one day, but I lool< upon this Bill as a really good measure. They have a splendid harbour at Bowen, and tlwy are not s;rddled with too much responsi­bility in taking over the liability of £26.200, which is the indchtedn<>s of the harbour to­the Crown at the' present time. I am sure that, with the poss;bilities there are before tho district of Bm' Nl, they ought to be able to constitute a harbour there that will bP. s<o~ond to none in Australia.

lfoN. VIL Y. 'BRO\VN: I think that th" machinery cluuses of thi,, Bill arf' quite in order, and I am strre that hon. members will pass it a' ii- stam!R. ThPro is just one littl<.' point I -,,·ant to draw tlw atte-ntion of thr· Government io. and that is the dc'-cription of the harbour in clau'r 3. which srrms to­me to be defoc'·ive. I think if the Govern­ment will refer the matter to the Eng-ineer for Harbours and River,i, he will be ablo to supply them with a better dP"Cri[ltion than the one given, which reads-

" rrhp ar'~a comprised within a. line commencing at Cape Edgecumbe, and proceeding thence to Cape Gloucpeter: thence by the mainland to the point of

Printers a;nd [18 AUGUST.] Newspapers Bill. 599

corrunenceinent, includino- all rivers, 'reeks. and navignble wat~rs within that area."

Capo Glouc<•ster i"' an island, and it will be necessary to insert some addition<tl wor.ds here. so as to make the de.ocri;Jtion clearer.

Hon. A. H. BARLOW: I will c,ee to that.

Qucstion-Th<tt iho Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

The <'ommittal of the Bill \yas made an Orcler of the Day for the next sitting of the Council

PRINTERS AND NEWSPAPERS BILL.

RESUMPTION uF COMMITTEE.

(lion. '1'. M. Hall in tiLe chair.)

On clause 13-" Printers or publishers of newspapers to enter into recognisances and sureties."

Ho~. A. H. BARLOW said he did not pro­pose to close the Committee stage of this Bill to-clay, because there were <L good manv things to be considered, and ho should be glad to know from han. members "hat clauses they "-i,hed to have re.,ommitted. Thev might try and make ,.ome progreBs with the Bill. This clause de:tlt >vith the question of sureties. He would like to •av .. with yerv great respect to han. members, that h-;, thought they were proccedino- on wrona- lines. This Bill was not intended" for resp';.ctable papers lik<c the" Gourier." the "Daily Mail," and the '· Toowoomha Chronicle," a.nd such papers as those; hut by the amendments they were introducing. and from the trend of the d{Jbatc, he thought they were openmg the door to a great evil-what he might term gutter literature. Unless there were reason­ab1c• restrictions impol'ed, then' would be a serious increase of that class of literature in the futuno, and a great difficulty in followino· it up and inflicting punishmrmt. He did not care what was said about himself. but every­body was not quite so thick-skinned as he w11s after many yPars of political life. He thought they wr re going on wrong lines, and taking away one safegu<trd after another.

RoN. P J. LEAHY said he had listened with a great real of attention to the remarks of the han. gentleman in charge of the Bill.

It must be understood at the outset [4.30 p.m.] that they were not doing any-

thing at all in the way of im­posing penalties for the publication of blas­phemous or seditious libels. The publication of blasphemous and seditious libel~ was an offence under the existing law. All that hB asked the Committee to do was to neo-ative the clause, which would render recogni~ances unnece"sary in the case of newspapers. If he thought the deletion of the clause would have the effect which the lion. Mr. Barlow antici­pated. he certainly would not be in favour of omitting it. He was no more anxious that low-ciass newspapers should be permitted to indulge in sedition and blasphemy than t]J.e han. gentleman. The clause was prac­tiCally a re-enactment of the existing law, but he did not believe that in the past it had . prevented low-class papers publishing- matter of a seditious or blasphemous character. On the few occasions when such papers had been brought under his notice, he had seen things

tliat would come under either of those head­ing,;, and no attempt had been made to put the law in motion, and that law cer­tainly had not prpvented the publication of seditious and bla,;phcnnous libels. The law was not effective in the case of low-class papers, and it certainly was not needed in the ca<e of decent papers. To his mind, the clause wa3 unm C<"-sary, and he did not think that anv of the evils which the Hon. Mr. Barlow 'thought would result would follow if they negatived thB clause. It might have suited thP conditions of the times a hundred years ago. but they should look at matters as they were, and he was certain that 95 per cent. of tho newspapers carrying on busine&s in QnPPnsland at the present tiffie were re­spectable, and that such a clause was not nece,•·mr0· with respect to them, and he had already shown that the existing law, which was similar to the clause under discussion, had not prevenwd low-class papers publish­ing seditiouq and blasphemous libels. For punishing such things the ordinary law was quite sufficient. He hoped the han. gentle­man would give way with regard to the clause.

RoN. T. J. O'SHEA was quite in accord with what the Hon. Mr. Leahy said with regard to the clause. It seemed to him that its only object was to give a sort of quasi spcurity that proprietors, printers, and Pl;lb· li,,herH of newspapers would not pubhsh matter of a seditious or blasnhemous nature. It would be noticed that sedition had become fashionable latelv, but he did not think tha.t imposing the burden on newspaper proprie­tors, m·inters. and publishers of finding sure­ti(''< f,hat the published matter would be noither ,, .. ,litious nor blasphemous would pre­vent sedition or blasphemv in the slightest degree. Already they had· an;ple legisl"!t~on to punish people who were gmlty of sed1tion or blasnhemv, if the authoritiPs saw fit to take procePdings against such offenders. The inclusion of such a clause seemed unneces­sarih- to hamper the administration of the Act · and to place an unnecessary burden upon the proprietors, printers. and pub­lishers of newspapers, and the measure would not be in the least impaired if the clause w<'re deleted.

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: In many respects the Bill was a long way out of touch with modern ideas. It was simply a rehash of the lee;islation of a cPntury ago, when news­papers were lookf,d upon as an instrument of evil-disposed persons. Probably such a provision as was contained in th:~t clause was put in. not for the purpose of preventing blasphPmv and Pt·dition, but in order to dis­courage the ec:tablishment of newspapers at all. At one neriod in their history (WPry ob'•tacle was r;laced in tlw wa,v of printing. and subsequently every obstacle wa.•: rlaced in the wav of preventing the estabhshmg of newspan2l;s_ In thosP days the education of the a-encral nub lie was not encourag-:-rl. To-d ~y ~ot onlY 'was education encourag-ed but it was corr.pulsorv. and it was p-enerallv recognised that. not 'elemPntary school erhH'lt;on lmt tee ,,,]-v.rqu('nt l-,ro'hdening· of knowledo-e. was obtained not onlv from books but perhaps in a grr·:tter deo:ree from newspapers. and, thPrPfore. anvthing which tPnded to restrict thn multinlicitv of nnvspapors or the estab­lishing of nPwspapers was not un to date. In everv little town in Queensla,nd they saw some little news-sheet established. Such papers werP doing good in thPir own little district, and the clause wa* calculated to

Hon. C. F. Nielson.]

GOO Printers and [COUNCIL.] N c.u:spapers Bill.

·hamper the establishment of newspapN~ in such case-<£~. As a rule CJ, newspaper Inan came along from somewhere else, and being· a stranger and not very' affluent, and his plant in all probability not being worth .£300, he might have great difficulty in find­ing the sureties required. In a city likco Bri·bane and in other citie' in the Statl'. there would be no difficulty, becam0 there would be plenty of assets at the back of thB people who de,ired to establish papers, and, as a rule, tho,e people would be well known. If there \Voro no other means of punishi11~· persons who indulged in blasphemy or print• d seditious matter, there noight be some good rea'm for a clause of this nature; but there was ample provision in the f'oJe for punish­ing persons who published blasphemous cr seditious libl'h, and the clause was not re­quired for the purpose of preventing the publication of such things. He did not think it was a p;ood thing to do anything that would tend to throw obstacles in the way of eotablishing newspapers in brnall centres. The past historx of Queensland should be some g-uide a'· to the ncch,itv for Slwh a clau9e. He did not think that tfl'3re had been 1any prosecutions for ,c .. dition or blasphemy in the State, and he did not know that it had ever been necessary to call on any sureties. For the rea"ons he had !':ivPn, he thou!':ht the clause should be eliminated.

HoN. F. 'l'. BREXTNALL could not quit<> understand the argum0nt that the dause would prevent anybody with sufficient capital and entPrpri"'c from starti119" a 1H'\V:3paper. and he could not sec that t.hat was thP object of the clause. It was open to anybody to :-;tart a rwwspapt-:r >O long- as the ll('C'essarv legal pr0C"Jutlons wore taken, and it wl{~ open to anylJndy to ('Urry on n n(•wspapf'l' so long as it complied with all thp require­ments nf thP "tatutP The argument that thf' Hon. Mr. :\'i0hon had used with respect to the dis('c~urag·en1011t of the establishment of small nmv•.-papPrs in tlw countrv diotricts did not s<wm to him to hav<' niuch fore<'. ThPrP ''!'"\ . ., no intPutjon on thE' part of any hon. member to discourage the disF~mina .. tion of. propPr 11ews. Th0y oimply required that the m'ws shrm]d be e!Pan. wholc8ome, reverent, and iust. and that it did net trnns­gre's the law· rplating to se<!ition or blas­phemy. Thnt was all that was rc'quired bv the Bill. 'l'ht•re waR a V('l'V broad line of demarPation b<>tw<'''ll the publieation of in· formation of a t"eful and practintl nature and that was in th" int<'rPRts of thl' com­munity, and publishing the kind of matter prohibited by that dam<'. He took it thai thP clau'o was intendPd to prPnmt the publi­cation of matter v.:hich eould not possibly hPnPfit the eornmumty. As to how it would work out he eould not say. He quite agreed with the hon. gentleman thm far-that the· st,rtutory proYisions alr<'adv in PXi"tcncP against t.lw publication of ·opinions. senti­m<'nts, or doctrines of the narticular kind referred to in thP clause had not prevented the publication of such matter. It was not an uncommon thing. unfortunatelv. in some papPrs published nowadt!vs to ~sl'e senti­ffi<'!lts PxpressPd and sath-c's publislwd to whiPh th~ wm·d. '• sedition" would apply; and CKwaswna!Jy m a ecrtain das~ of paper• thPy found bl a,plwmous expresc.ions. Thev wantPd to define blasphemv clearlv and deflnitely. so as to know how' far they could go. H" took it that thP particular denial of thP SuprPme DPity, or the investiture of that DPity with attributes that were not good, not

[Hon. C. F. Nielson.

rightc>ous, and not tnt<'~ won!<! be blaeph"my. D1d not such t<'aehing a·- that sornd1mes appPar in the nowspapc'rs of the day 'I

Hon. ( ' .. F. ~IELSOX: Do you nwa11 that the authoritic,; wi11k at this thing~

HoN. 1<'. T. BRE~TNALL: He was going back to the point to which he rdc:T('(l pro_tty "tronp-ly in his •,peach on the second n;tdmg of the Bill--that it wa•" of no use "·hateYcr pu,tcting p1·ohihitions aga~n·, ~, tid~ ~li.-~luyalty, \,..,_,,djtion. or bla;-.phr:.rny unl(H"'• t.lwre as. '-'OllH)bodv il'1 th<' <'O!llnluui\ ,. \vho wvuld Pnforcc iht" la v:. ·

Ho11. P. ,J. LE\l!Y: \\'lwt is 1lw "'""'! of a p!·o,·i;-:;io.!._~ that i;-; not enfor .. ed:

Hox. F. T. BREJ'\TN.\LL: That was what lw said. If he "::re quite certain that the propr•l' aut?m·i~ies would Sfo'" that .an pnaetmcnt of th; b11d. ,vhetlwr 111 an exrst­inp- statui:<' o,· in this BilL would punish as thev df·.•el'V<'d to be punished either one oJic:nce or the other, thl'n he would say· most heartily and cordially by all means pass such lr gislation; but the misfortune was that. ,, !though this kind of prohibition had been in existe11ce for vears. it had not prevented the publication of seditious or' b!J.sphemous matter; and until they were quito sur?. that th0 pro]wr action would bo tal«•n h:e d1d not see the force of multiplying prohibitions in ~tatutc after ,tatute. -~,-as it seditious, lor c•xamplc, for a HeY:"paper. whether it was a small country priut or a large city paper, to a<IYocatP tho ,,-iping out of tht> Throne and pservt.hin<r that was {he. basi~ of our eon· t,itutiOnal ~-xistr::nce, and r;~,,olving our­snlves into a republic? He took it that it was sedition, and yet it was published nearly every week.

Hon. P. .J. Ln.mY: And this does not stop it. Ho~. F. T. BRKNTSALL: It sh,Juld be

,topped, ami if h<' thought that the enact­mPnt of a elau,;e' like this wnuld ]cad to more vigilance with rng-ard to thC' suppression of ~u<'h teaching-., U;:, that in the ne\Yspapers ?£ this f)tate, for which alone. they wero lc;grs­lating he would yote for Jt mo--t heartily; but h~ was not quite r,nre whdl1C'r it would have' that eff,•ct. The Hon. Mr. Niel>on had arr;uecl that a provision of this ch~ra~ter in t-he Bill would hamper the pubhcatwn of JJ..-.wspapprs; but he did not think that it would. It was not intendE'd to hamper t.he puhlir"tion nf JHlwspapcn:s; it was m:ly _m­tPnded to preycnt, if pos"blc, the pubhcatwn in nPwspapers of improper language rcfer­rin!l' Pither to the Supreme Deity or to the Constitution of the country. He would vote for the omission of the clause if he felt that it would be no more enfore•ed than similar proviRions were being enforced . '!t the pr~­s,.nt time with rC'gard to obscemt1es of var!­ons kinds. which <~ppcared not in P.ubhc papers so much as m other forms of htera­turc'. He' had as g-rl'at an abhorrence and rPpugnance to the public,.tion in newspapers of sedition and blasphemy as anvono could have, and IH' wanted to make sure that the prohibition of that sort of thing would be enforPed should it become law; but they had to take a good dPal of that for granted. Their experience in other direction' had bee.n to takp a !!"Ood dfcal for granted, :>nd thmr hopes and intentions had not been realised, and therefore he was in a dilemma with rcrrard to a clause like this. But, as he was st:ongly against the publication of either sedition or blasphemy in any of the paper$

Printers and Newspapers Bill. [18 AUGUST.] Special Adjournment. 601

which C3.me into our families and were road by our children and the inmates of our homes, his vote must go in favour of making this prohibition.

HoN. E. W. I-I. l<'OWLJ~S: 'The argument before them was that the present law was rrot carried into effect, and thert'.'ore they should swee;' it a'rttY; but surely there was another argument besides thnt! If it was a good law, o.nd not <'ttrried int•O effPd, the remedy was not to sweep tho good la\v .away, but to enforce it. ''l'he only question was as to whether this dauso would hamper thE' publi8ution of newspapers.

lion. P. J. LEAHY: Th·.··ro is not tho tilit.;httst chance of baYing it enforced.

lioN. E. W. H. l<'OWLI~S: There only ncnded t.o be one or two profiecutions, and the eoll>t.'ic·lt:P of the co1nrnunitY v.ould bo so quid;.1~llt>1, ~'·"per'iully ;,vhc•n th-e at·nor'~1here

as C'!eetr:,·al at it we-; at tlw pre.-ent time with loyalty. that he bdioved a prose­cajon for sedition ·would mr3t with tho ap) .roval of our 600.000 ppopk.

Hon.· 1' .• J. LEIHY: Rut you vm prosecute thc>m just tlw oanw under the old law.

lioN. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: Yos, th<'y could pnc,,ecute tlwm under tho Criminal Code. Tho. 1 broug-ht him to another clifficulty. HE' 'was going to support the cx.elusion of this cla.uso, het::'1U'"·~ it 1ni~:rht f>CCnl unduly to hara,,l nnw,pap'"": but, on the other hand, if they swPpt away th" clause·, he did not know vl!wtlwr tlwrP wa· :my "'··ction of the Crin1ir .. <d Cotl(~ \Vhieh \vould deal ·with ordi­nary b1--:t"phmny in a net<,_papor. The sQcticnl of the l'ode tho,i rl1•alt with blasphemy "·as 374, and that section said that it vas lJ.wful to publish fuir report of ·any jm!:cial pro· ceedings, rn·ovid<'•l that the matter wac; not blasphemous or obscene.

Hon. 1' .• J. O'SHEA: ('lausp 13 does not con­,titute an offenc<'.

HoN. K \Y. H. FOWLES: If it. did not .()onstitute an offence, then there wa~ no neNI t<:> bother a.bout it at all. The only thing (Lbout clause 13 ·was ·vdu.--thor they \VPrc going to incrc<~so tho opportunity for blasphmny, or to let tho gate be shut as far as po•,sible at the prPsent time. The only question was whether a man who wished to ,,nrt a news­paper, .i·!L:c, at Innisfail or Rarcaldine, wouhl [,e really seriously hampered in finding suretie' to the extent of £300. llu thought £300 was put th<-rc because, in section 330 of the, Criminal Code, the fn,c for dnfamation wt.s placed at £300. Thi;•, <JJ all p,enb, would ,.;ivP the GovPrnment a lever, if they likPd t-o use it against any newspaper which was recklessly indulging in hl:nphcmy or Hcdition. The qtu stion of what constituted ,edition was Vflry well settlP<t in section 45 of the Criminal Code, where it was laid down that, if there was ·any discu;,,,ion in good faith upon the question as to wholhor we ~hould have a monard1y or a republic, for instance, newspapPu wen' quite. free to dis­cuss it in tl10 ful!Pst and most unreserv"d manner. It was lawful for any person to poi,lt out in good faith any error or def,,,;t in thP Com-titution of tho Govmnment of the United Kingdom. If they wanted to criticise their own Government, thev could ·do so to their heart's content, as lortg as they could g'E!t any newspaper to publish it; so that, as

far as sedition was concerned, newspapers were perfectly frp~ to discuss. in good faith anv alteration in our Constitution. But there diti not se-enl to ho 4:lllY vrotection against bla,phcmy nn<ler the Criminal Code,, m;l'.'ss tho blasphemy arooe from .a report of J udrmal proce,:diPv,s. They knew that blnsphPmy ":"s "Escu"3cd in n.Pv-·;spapC'rs Yery often. qutte a:.~art from judicial proceE-dings. Imtead of altogci:lur omirting the clausc-wh_i~h would leavo a gap in (1Ur ft~1nt('J ':T1ucl1 Y\'ould make th0m quite ineons;'b nt v:rth the Acts in th~ otltel" StatP'i of Australia and G:cat Rri+otiu- -lw \\ould al:no~t mggcst addmc:, aftf'r "bl,rdp1H'n1ouR or seditious !ibi)," the "\\ ord ~ •· and the evi,r1PDC(\ in any ·dtvor~P p_ro­c,,e-ding-s." Th0y ftll kne'''. thilt a "~crta1n lnnd of litn :1ture lived upon dryorce reports.

lion. P .• J. LriHY: I should 1;:· _ve:y glad to support !hat if you ''· ould put rt m m sonw oth!)'r place.

lim:. E \Y. H. FOWLES: Tlw difl_iculty \Yas that the only otlLr plac~ would be rr; ~ha Crimirul Cvd<'. The reason fo~ _tho a~drtwn wa·i' this: Tht•y v;c'·e ~ll f:mrhar wrth th_e we\l-knmYn argmnt nt that 1t "a.s tho pubh­eitv of divorrt' }n·oee\'Jhng·J tho.t wa!' really th~; cl-eansing pO\\Or of the <'C?nu.:lunit~·· . .j\.s a matLn· of fact. all that wlup of Pl!-bhcrty could be 60\'Ul'C'd if l)Orll'ic.sio:l \Vf'rC giVCll to print the nanw,; of thP _Pa rtws .. the <'m;nsel, the summing up of the judgP, th'' verdwt of the inn. and thP ordc·r of the court; but the P'YiclcncL~ 1night be Pxch1 dPd.

An 1 foNOLCllABU: :\Ir~··lBEH: Omit all the filthy details.

Ho·•. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: Exactly, and give th<e re&t of it. _He took it that the com­rnunit.y was irnprf;\ring every year, a.I;d tl;at. it would rather ltve on the prazza than hve

in the o-uttor. He be:ieved that [5 p.m.) thP co,';nnunity was _v-ifoh:<Il to

live on the sunn,- s1de of the road as mn<'h as it poo"ibly could, and not on the evil-smelling side.

Hox. A. H. IlAB.LOW moved that the clause be postponed .

Hm~. P. J. LEAHY did not object t<? tho postponcnwnt of the clause, but he pomted out that he had a. considerable number of anwndmcnts that hinged upon the clause. If they wore going to postpone th_e clause, the best thing to do would be t<:> adjourn the debate.

HoN. A. H. BARLOW: If hon. members wishPd other cla.uses recommitted. he would move tho recommittal of the Bill for the purpose of fm·thor considering thoo;e clauses.

Qu(•stion put and pas8ed.

Tho Council rbumcd. The Ac•rrxo CHAIR­MAK reported pro\frcss, and the Com~it_tce obtai11ed leave to sit again at the next srttmg of tho Council.

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT.

HaN. A. H. BARLO\V: I beg to move that the Council, at its rising, adjourn until TuE's­day next.

Qup,,tion put and passed.

The Council adjourned at three minutes past 5 o'clock.

Hon. A. II. Barlow.]