Legislative Assembly Hansard 1930 - Queensland Parliament

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 2 OCTOBER 1930

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1338 Sea Carriage, Etc., B1'll. [ASSElVIBLY.] Days Allotted to SuJJply.

THURSDAY, 2 OCTOBER, 1930.

The SPEAKER (Hon. C. Taylor, 1r inrl.<or} took the chair at 2.30 p.m.

DAYS ALLOTTED TO SUPPLY.

:\IR. SPE<\KEI<'s lh:uxG OF 25TH Onom:R. 1929.

The SPEAKER: Hon. mcmbcrR, chuin(\ last spssion thn Conunittee of Supply did not occup~"~ the full :3ixtePn days allotted uuder Standing Order :\o. 307 in the discuR~ion of tlio Estirnatr"', and, \vhcn the day RrrlYed for rcc0iving the n"':3olutions, a clai1n 1.":as 1nad~~ by the hon. member for Bremer. ?.Ir. Cooper, that the Committee of Supply not haYing occupied the full eixtecn day' the House was ('ntitled to discuss the resolutions so long as rhne remained anv unexhwstcd davs out of the full sen:nt.•cn 'allo\\Pd for discu'ssing the Estin1atcs a.nd the re~olutionfi. I ruled aga1nf:t that contention, and believed at the time that rny ruling W<lFi perfectly sound. Ne\~('rt'helc::-s, at the end of the se<::':'iion, I in~trncted the Clerk to write to Sir Lonsdalc \Vcbstcr, the Clerk of the House of Commons, setting out the situahon that had arisen in our l'arlia­nwnt, and asking his opinion thercon. The case was very fallv st,atcd by the Clerk, and ''qually fully replied to by Sir Lonsdale \Vebstcr. I propose to h~tYe these two letters print'ed in " Hansard" for the information of hon. nwmber I wish to say that my ruling given on 25th October. 1929, is not supported by Sir Lonsdale \Vebster, and if similar circumstances arise in the future­which they arc very unlikely to do-I would, if I were in the chair, permit hon. members, if they so desired, to exhaust the full sm-en­teen davs allowed for the consideration of the Esti!nates and the re,olutions of Supply.

OPPOSITION ME~IBERS: Hear, hear!

The SPEAKER: The letters read-" Parliament House,

"Brisbane, 23rd :May, 1930. '' Sir T. Lonsdale \\' ebster, K.B.E.,

"Clerk of the House of Commons, " \V estminster,

"England. " Sir.-I am directed by Mr. Speaker

Taylor to ask whether you would be goorl enough to express au opinion on the following circum,tances :-

"Our Standing Order No. 307-' Da.'' Allotted foJ' Supplv '-copy of which l send you under separate cover, provides that 'not more than seventeen days shall bo allotted for the consideration of the Estimates for the year and the Supple­rnentary Estin1atcs for tho preYious ~ €ar.~ Of these sixteen davs aro allotted to consideration 0f the E;t'imates thondclvcs. and ono day to the report of the resolu­tiOns of Supply.

'' A ncvv Gov0rnmo11t was returned to power in May, 1929, and tho Labour Opposition failccl during last sc,sion to make full me of the sixteen day, allotted for tho dis,·ussion of Estimates for the rca',on that they '\VPro practically their O'\Yn E·~tirnate~. VVhcn, howeYer. the day arrived for the consideration of the reso­lntions reported from Committee of Sup­ply, th0 Opposition made the claim that. not havin!:\ exhausted the full sixteen davs in discussing the Estimates-as a matter

Days Allotted to Supj)y. ~2 0CTOBEH.) Questions. 133$)

of fact tht•Y onlY exhausted thirteen days -they 'werB cntltlL'd to go on discus:;;ing tlw resolutions of Supply until they had t'xha usted, not only the 1-1ixtecn days allotted for the considerarion of the Esti­matr ·-·· Gut the additional day allotted to the discussion of th0 resolutions of Sup­ply. This, as you will ob3ene, would haYe giYcn them four days for the drs­cussion of the resolutions of Supply inslcad of the one day allotted by Stand­ing Order No. 307.

"::\Jr. Speaker Ta:ylor rulf d against thi.>~, contention. and, in order to 1nake the matter perfectly clear, I fonYard also copy of ·Votes and Proceediugs,' No. 34, containing his ruling.

''"'lay I be permitted to put this view of tht~ 1natter before you': ..._.\Rsume .a very exh'eJne case. A~suuH\ that the Opj)osition allm• ed the whole of the Esti­rnatf's to go through Con1mil.tee of Sup­ply in four da) s. C\ow. in Committee of Suppl_\, spc~ch(~s are 1irnitrd to n; cnty­fiyp minutP::: 011 e·ach qu('stion. In the House thcv are limited to fortv minutes on each quPstion. \Yould it then be a reasonable interpretation of Standing Order ='<o. 307 that' the Opposition mem­bers were entirled to speak to the reso­lutions of Suppl~--with :\fr. Speaker in the ch~ir, when the1 would haYe fortv rninutc~ on each <iuestiou-for bYPlvO n1ore dayR-ruaking a total of f'ixteen­plus the one day ordinarily allotted to discussion of the resolutions with :\fr. Speaker in the chair? -

" ::\1r. Speaker would lw greatly ob)i!l'cd tD you 1f you ,yonld expre:-:~ an opu11on on the foregoing.

"I an1 " Yours faithfully.

.. (Sgd.) c. A. BER!>AYS.

"The Clerk of thP Parliament."

'' 2lld July. 1931'. ''Dear Sir.--I ha Ye reeeived V<JUr letter

<>f the 23rd l\Tay and thP coriv of ,vom· Standing Orders sent uudrr separate <:over, as well as the '·vot,c., and Procoed­ing'' of your Assembly Xo. 34.

''Your Standing Order Xo, 307 resPmbles our Standing Order Xo. 15. and its objects and proc'Cdurr, ar<' so , lilw those of our Slanding Order that our practico ht'rc n1ay well seryp a::- a. guide. The interpretatiou put upon our Standing Order is that :not 1norc than 1'v.·Pllh' dav~ are to be allotted to the business o'f Sup­ply--that is, Yotes in Committee of Sup­ply and th<> consideration by tlw House of tho~e YOt'e~ a:-~ rcportcJ. fron1 1 htc~ Committee. ancl that. if the Committee of Supply is not finished b0- ]_0 o'clock on 11lf~ nineteenth allottcc1 dn:v, the sp0cial proccdur0 of paragTaph 7 COJ:lrs into force to conclude tlw bn~inC'~~ of the C'llll­

mittcc of Snpp!~·, and t.h:•t, if all tlw repDrlf' n.ro not agTl'('d to bv 10 o'clock on the hrcnti0th dny, p8ragr~lph 3 C'niYH"S

into forcr to :-:L'curc the .. rgrf'Pnleiit of the llnusP \Yith them \Yithont further debate. There 1:-; nothing- in our practice to pn"'­n:nt day~ f'arlicr than t hP 11 ineteenth b~'i110· n-.ed for l'Pporr-; of 8upplv instead of Commiltet• of Suppl?. P:1r:~graph 6 C'llltPmp]a.u:~ the r0purt of a. vote or.t. acc<nrnt bf~ing tak( u on ~,-wh a day, and to·, a rds the Pnd of tlw financial year a da? is usually t ~,ken for the rl'poft of

those- arU1\" and navy a11cl air forco Yotc~s which IllU~t he l'tgl't;cd to bdor0 the 31st :\larch. If all the votes were agreed to iu Committee of Supply before the nine­tc•t>nth da:v. that day would be used for reports; but the >pocial procedure for <"onc·luding proceedings on reports of Sup­pl0- would not come into forco until tht• nn'llt ie-th day. l t sec"Ins to n1c. therefore. that i( i,; wrong to "''umc that the days for the business of Supply should be reduced bee a lL5C t hl' Cunuuittec of Sup­ph- cunH's to an C'!ld before the dav on w~1 ieh tliP special procedure for its t~rmi­JW t ion ·-·GlrH'~ j11to opPration. This is l~ul'lll: _out by ! hP pbr".tso con11non to your ~lHi]dl!Jp.· Ord('l' aud ours ':not being e;1dieJ· than the (lvi'enLicth) ('lovonteenthl dav.' qualifyillg- lhe 1ast of the allotted da~·~.

'· ]11 thP 'extrc1nc case' a· . .;umed bv you_ I slJ,)uld say that the Assombl'V ~.-ould lvc strictly - ntitled to fourteei1 days, for reports of Supply, but that poslt1011 b01ng. a:;;, you suggest, rathe1· absurd >lJOuld be dt alt with bv an order n·ducing tlw total HUmber of days to lw dcmt0<;J during that session to Supply a~Jc! proYid~ng t~1at the procedure pre­>cnbud b,v i'itandmg Order for the seven­teenth day should attach to the last of the ,·,·duccd nqmbcl' of davs. Last session for Ot'hcr r<'a'tlT!S, the number of dayc, fo~ ::;,~pply \vas reduced fn,am twenty to tlnrteen, the twelfth and thirteenth days lwmg substituttod for the nineteenth and twtonriet h in the Srancling Order (184 C.J. 251). I enclose a copy of this Orde{· ~nd of our Standing Order Xo. 15.

" Yours faithfullY '" J. LOXSD;;E WEBSTER,

" Clerk, House of Commons . 1

' C. A. Uernays, Esq., " C!Prk of the Parliament,

'·Parliament House, Brishane."

QCESTIONS.

Tr;xm:RERS FOR SrPPLIEs OF CoAL TO RAILWAY DEPARTMEKT.

:\Ir. COOPER (Err m rr) asked the Secretary for Railways-

. " L \Yhat' were the names of those who tendcre~l recently for the supplies of coal for raTl\o-n:v pnrposes throughout tho State?

" 2. \Yho \Yere the euccessful ten-­dPrer:-:;? "

1'1"' SECRET.\HY FOR RAILWAYS i !Ion. Gcdfre:v Morgan, J:lurilla) replied-

_" 1. ='Jew R c~lb<:nk C:oll.iery Company; \\ !utwood Colllerres, Lrmrted · Old Aber­d!"'" Colliery, Limited; Me~srs. H. G, :\obl0. Lirnite.d; Harts Abcrdarc Col­lieries. Limited; Blackheath Collierie• Limilecl. '•

'· Tlw tJucerJslaud Colliery Proprietors' Council- -

"\berdare Collieries. Limited. Br-1-mont. Extended Colliery Company, Bonme Dundee Coal Companv Limited, Messm. Hetherington and Rylance, Limited, Messrs. \<Vm. McQuccn and Company, Limited New Aberdare Colliery, Limited, Par:khead Colliery Company, Rhondda Colliery,

13+0 Questions. [ASSEl\IBLY.] Paper.

Limited, Mr. A. \Vr·ighi. Southern Cross Colliery, Glencoe Colliery Com­pany, Normanton Colliery Company, \V cs:va le Collieries. Limited, Acland Coal Company. Limited, Balgowan Col­lieries, Sugarloaf Colliery, Limited Messrs. J. \V right and Company: \Yilleroo Collicrv. and 'fannvmon•l Colliery. · ·

" Bluebell Collier,·; LowJ\elcl Colliery ; K!ondyke Collierie·. Limited; Oakleigh Colli0ry Con1pnny; :fiicssr Clark Brothers. Clarcfi0ld ColliPry; Laneficld Colli0riec; Mr. P. '1'. :\Iilligan, Federal Colliery; Aqora Collif~l'Y Con1pnn:,~; The Queensland Collicri('S Cornpany, Lirnit·-d; f-Iowanl Col1it:rics, Lirrtitf'.cl: Burgo'.,-nn Co:::tl Cornpnny, Lin1ited; :}lr. Donn1<1 L. {:l'rascr, BalmoTal Cu1lier..-; :i\lc•ssr~. rrLornas Rro\vn and Son".' Limited. Agent .. ;, The Bluff Colliery Cornpany. Limited; :'\o. 3 'Tribute J:';Ht:· (B. A.), Blair .Athol; Nt>\' ca~th) Co:Jl. Lln1ittd, Blair Athol; The Blai1· Arhol Coal and Tiu1bcr Contpany7

, Lirnitt c1; Depart~ of :vlin<'s (St- x Stat<• Coal ::\1i111'); Department of ':\Iinc. (Bow<'ll St,de Coal 2\1inf'); Bowcn Con~olidatNl Coal ::\lines. Limited; Department of :\Iincs (acting­for Tributm·s of Mount 2\Iulligan Coal Mino) ' Clydeb>1nk Collicrie". Li~<Jitecl; Honghrigg Colliery.

"2. Tenders ha Ye not ])('ell accepted.''

ARE.',S AXIl RE,;To\I.S OF PASTORAL LEASES AND I:R.'.ZTXG SELECTIOXS AT 31m· .\LR<'TJ, 1930.

J\Ir. PE.'\. Sit~ ( H, rbrrtl. for Mr. FOLEY (Lt•irhhardtl, a,kPd the Sl'<TNarv fm· Public Lam], ·

·· 1. \Yhut \Yas thp tOLuJ ;:_~re;~ n£ ;::-~::.tol'al lt•<."C'·' standin~· good on the 31st lVfarch, 1930. the total annual rent recciYcd therc­froru. nnd thP total annunl n·nt accrued on that daTP ·:

.: 2. \Yh:.tt \YH:-: thP total area of grnzinrr :--dPetion ~landing- good on the 31s~ ~Inr h. 1930. th~' .total n,nnual rent re~ < "iYed therel'rom. and the tctal amwal l'('lli aC('flH'd on that dat'e ·: ''

T!w SECHET.\HY FOR Pl'BLIC LA'\'DS (Hon.\\'. A. Dt'acon. Cunninyhum) replied-

.. L 'Thn annual rrport of the Depart· nH'llt of Publie Land~. v;hich will giv(' tlw honourablP member full statistical infonnation r0lating- to pastoral learsPs and grazing selections 1~ 110\V being printer!. a ll!l will be tabl<'d bv me next wt:ek. ~

;. 2. Se• answer to ~n. 1."

TExnrRs 1·oR H~~Pl'LY or: SLEEPER BLoCKS .\T 1-IO:\lESTE.\D SA \V)IlLL.

:\Ir. WI:'\i:'-'T.'\2\ILE'r- (QuNnton' asked the B('CTC'tary for Railways-

,, 1. I-Iov: ruanv tenders 'verc received for tlw working 'of ih0 sawmill at Home­stead?

"2. \Yhat W·'r<' the amounts tendered, n :--pcctiYt•ly?

'' 3. Does the contract include loadin'" in truck> in addition to stacking in th~ yarc1 '?

'' 4. What ·.,·as the cost of sawing, aclzin~·. and 'tacking in thA yard per 100 fm· th" thrc0 financial yc~rs ended 30th ,J tme, 1930 ''

"5. Is it a fad that· the Homestead ;..Ell c;.,ts haYn b. en lower per 100 sleepers than any mill in tlw State? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. Codfrcy :\forgan, Jiurilln) l·oplied-

" 1 to 5. The information is being obtained."

:\'rGH1'FLOW!:tc l\Irxi·;-LoAx TO KxrGHT AND PARTY.

~{r. C'I..,_~~EFL~ (Cairn:): I desire to .ask lhe Secl·l'tar.'· for Mine., whether he has an Ull"··cr to the following question which I adclrL·.;~ed to hi111 011 5th August last:-

'' 1. \\~hut an:ount of loan nlonw,· \vas adYt~llt ,,1 b~· lhe :\[ines l)cpartm~nt to 1~night. n.nd party in couno~'tion ·with tho i';ighttiower mine 111 the Chillagoo dis­trict-·:

.. 2. \Yh;:' tonna 1 ,C of ore \.Vas lPft at t:,Ta's a-<: dh' :\ightflower n1inc b· Knight <1Jtc1 ]Htrt,, '"hen the srncHers clo::wd do\vn, ;uHl was the ore regist,~rcd b: !(night and part.~-?

"3. \Yho \Vcn_' 1·egi~terc>d as o·,·ncrs or owner of the Xightflower 1nine after I\:night anJ part.v had ceased operations OH ~.uch nlilli· ';

'· 4. \Y;:. ! iw on:> left at grass at the :\igiJtfimn'l' min by Knight and party "'h,;oqucnt]:, treated by the Chillagoe smelt<•r,; ·; l i ;o, to whom were proceeds paid, <111d ' hat ':as the an1onnt of ~anw [''

Tl1e SEC'RE'L\RY FOR MI~ES (Hon. E \: Ath0rton, l.'hii/ayor) replied-

'· 1. to 4. There is no record in the depa,·tmcllt that Knight and party held an"' interest in the Nightf!ower mine in the Chillag·oo district."

LO.IX TO c\HGEX1T~l J\IIKI:XG CO!>lPAXY.

2\lr. O'KEKFE (f!airns): I desire to a'k the Sc·cn't·~ n for ~lines whether he has an answer tn tlw following _ que,tion which l addrcs"'tl to him on 5th August last:-

': \Yhat. unount of loan money 1vas adYanced by the ::\'lines Department' to the Argcnturn ~'lining Company, Limited, for the working of its group of mines, including th~~ ~ightflower ?"

The SF:CRETAH Y FOR J\II:'>!ES (Hon. K A. Athcrhn. ('hillnr;oc) replied­

" £750."

l:on:n":~a:xT ~.\T>YAxCE TO GIROFL.I MINE SYXI>IC'ITE, J\11}KGANA.

J\Ir. O'KEEFE (Cairns): I desire to ask I ho Sccretarv for ;..lines whether he has an am.wer to t.fw following question which I addrcoeod to him on 26th September last:-

'· \Yhat amount of the £2,000 loaned tu the Girof1a rnining- SYndjcatc has been rciLU'1H'd frotn valu~es 'of ore delivered by th5.t s.vndicatc at the State s1ncltera ~u

'l'bo ::ilWRETARY FOR MII\IES (Hon. E. A. Athcrtun. Chill'L(!Oe) replied­

" £67 Ss. 3d."

PAPER.

Tho following paper \vas laid on the tabln-J Ordinance undt>r " The City of Brisban>e

Act_ of 1924 "-Automatic Vending Machin~e, dated 25th September, 1930."

Babinda To?L'nship Bill. [2 OCTOBER.] Babinda Tou·nship Hill. 1341

BABINDA TOWNSHIP BILL.

I~ITIATIO~ IN CmLMITTEE.

I.Jir. lioberts, Eltst Toon·oomba, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barnos, Wynnum): I beg to move-

" That it is desirable that "" Bill be introduced to amend tho law in relation

the tenure of thee lands comprised in Babinda township, to amend 'The

IY orks Act of 1911,' and for other purposes.''

The Bill which I am about to introduce is very largely a Committee Bill. The Leader of the Opposition smiles, but he knows that it must be so in regard to a Bill of this particular nature.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: You have said that about the last three Bills you have intra· duced.

The TREASURER: Yes, and the hon. member has confirmed what I have said 'tom time to time. This Bill has to do with the Cairns and South J ohnstone Shire Cotm,'ils ill connection with the Babinda sugar works area. It is proposed in the ~ill to allow th-e owners of property embraced in that area to obtain the freehold of their land. At, presen,· there are twenty-six business ar,•as ana seventy,-three resident areas in the £ abi~da township, and for the moment they ar,, held under leasehold terms, the rent depending on whether they are used for business or hoase­hold purposes; the rent in the case of busi­ness sites being £20 per annum, and in tile case of household sites £5 per annum. Then' a!e eight business sites and two residence s1~cs not yet taken up in the area. The Bdl allows twenty years in which to convert the present leaseholds into freehold tenure.

Mr. KIRWAN: What is the idea of that?

The TREASURER : It does not follow that people will be confined to extending their payments deliberately over twenty years, but n allows them twenty years; and, if it be a_ny comfort to the hon. member, I would hke to say that there is nothing in the Bill !" compel people to convert their properties mto f_rccholds if they prefer leasehold tenure. Th~ Idea, of course, .is to assist the Cairns Shire po!mcii and the South J ohnstonc Shire Council m connection with the lands within the rmll area.

Mr. STOPFORD: Who will fix the price for the purposes of conversion?

The }:'REASUR.ER: Provision is made for the fhong of a pnce at the outset, of course hy the powers that arc handin" over th~ land. ~

Mr. \V. .FoRGAN SmrH: On present-day values?

1\lr. W. FOHGAN SMtTH (Mack11y): Thjs is anothr>r case in which the Government indicate their oa.gerness to dissipate the public estate. Land in the township of Babmda IS held under perpetual leasehold tenure. Thio is an arect which has grown as a result of the activities of the Bureau of Central Sugar Mills in the first instance; that is to say, as a result of the expenditure of State money in the building of a sugar­n1ill in tbe area. Land was taken up, some for gro~<Ying sugar-cane, and so1no as town­ship sites, for business and residential pur­poses. All the value of the laud in that area is dne to the expenditure of public funds on a sugar-mill. It is right, there­fore, that under the 1911 Act any apprecia­tion in land values which takes place from time to time shall accrue to the Crown.

Under the Bill the Minister proposes to alter the tenure of land with a view to giv­ing freeholds to the people concerned. It cannot be argued that they can put the land to any better use than that to which it is being put to-day, and therein lies the reason for our objection to the proposal. I believe in a form of land tenure which provides for the utilisation of land in the most economic way, having regard to the interests of the nation and the public well-being. The Trea­surer, however, indicates that he intends to give instruments of title which may be made the subject of speculation. That, I consider, is introducing a wrong principle. It can be shown that, if the State took for itself the unearned increment or the appreciated value of land as a result of public expenditure, the national debt could without doubt be very considHrably diminished. The building of sugar-mills and cf railways and other things which add to the value of land is done by the State. Take, for example, the Kingaroy to Tarong railway line, which was commenced .during the period of the Denham Government and opened during the first year of the Labour Ministry. The land benefited by that line was thrown open for selection prior to its construction by the then Government, despite the recommendation of the Land Commissioner then in the district ; and it was shown very clearly by the Depart­ment cf Public Lands that if, after the opening of the line, the State had taken for itself the increased value which accrued as a result of the building of the line, the railway could be a State asset free of debt to-day. In other words, the appreciated land value was greater than the cost cf the line to the State. However, under the policy of hon. members opposite that went to enrich private individuals.

The TnEASURER: That is not an analogous caE~e.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: Bill after Bill has been introclncod by the present Go­vernment in tbo djroct~,cn of d:ssipating t,;w public estate and disinh0riting the futuro citizens of the St2te. Tho Tre2surcr

clear in his reply the n:nn1he:;_~ for fixation of

t 11is

Mr. 8millt.J

1342 Babinda 'l'ou·nship Bill. [ASSElVIBL Y.] Babinda 'l'ownship Bill.

'ms taken as being th • value placed upon the land by the Department of Public Lands at the timf' the lease>< were taken up. The law permits of an appc•al to thP Land Court ·with a Yicw to a rPYisioil of the value. The land in the Babinda are:c has been taken up at Ya.rious interval~ since 1911; and, as the Trea8urc·r has ]10intr•d out, a few blocks ~but very few--arc still available. Under tlw conditions attached to the tenure under which the laud was takl'n up the land i>~ .-ubject to reappra i"•ment at intervals; and I should like to know ,,-hf'ther, under this Bill. tht· c:tpital value at the time of taking ur that laud is to lw the capital value for the purposf' of this Bill. or whether new values will bP determinPd by thP Depart· mont of Public Lands subject to an appeal to the Land Court either bv the Crown or by the indiYidwtl cow·Prnc•d. The land :<hould be rt•appraised h:-, tlw Department of ,Public Lanck the authority bc,.t fitted to c·arrv out this function, and' then' should bo thf' l'ight of up]wal to tlw Land Court either by the exishng le~sce for a reduction in Yalut) or bv the Cro\Yll, if it d0sir; ~ an imrcase ill \,ahw. That would be thP Pquit, abl0 roursc to pnrsue. In any case, whn1-C'ver happens. ihe Crown should ~l''0 to it that the land is capitalised at existing Yalue; and, if the ntlue at ·which the land was taken np is con ,idered to be too high. the landholdc-r ha:-; a case for a reduction la valuf'~. 'l'he::->e arP da'.n; of ~{eprec!ated Yalues due to the pclicy of the (iovcrnrnent largely in rc•gard to wagP fixation, whcrcLy th0y have forced a n:duc·tion of wage~ upon !h<' people. thereby depreciating their Parn­mg c'tpacity. That is Jll'rfedly ob•:ious. The Babinda area exists ,.})pcau:-;e a sugar~ rr:.ill operate:5 therP-~ --

TlH• SECtU~TAB.l FOH PcBLH' l~~THCC'l'JOX: )~on a r~..• \VTong.

Mr. IV. FORG'Al'\ Si.\UTH: And b0eau<'o the farnlPr~ in t1H' vicinit~;~ gro\v ('ane. I aan 11ot wrong·. The:'P \F1uld be 110 towu­,;hip if there was no mill therP.

The SECF~ETARY FOR P1YBLTC IxsTRCCT10X: Tllerc "0uld b(' no townshiv un]P:;:'i tht•rt..' wPre C'ancgrowers thnr('.

Mr. W. FORGAK s:\IITH: If thor<' """' 110 1nill and no sugar-eanc was grown in tlH·

arC'a) then~ would hC' pra-ctica1ly no town­ship there at all.

The SEcm;T.\RY FOR Pl'BLIC l~STRUC'I!O~: That is right.

Mr. W. FORGAN S:\IlTII: Any diminu­tion in the earning capacity of ih(' farnlL'r or the worker reflects itself in the volumn of business don<' there. That is perfectly oln·ious. \Vhat I am arguing is wund-­that values should be fixed on the economic lcn•l that exists to-day. '}'hat value should bo fair to the State, and fair also to the ir,dividual. The land should be vnhwd bv i i1c Departnwnt of Public Lands. with th;, right of review b:. tlw Land Court, if de:<ircd bv eithet· the Crown or the individual l0"-SC'C'. .

Tlw Bill is one which at this juneturc l am not prep:n·ed to support. There may bP features in it that h:1Ye not been revealed up to ihc present; but 1 repeat that. the pr1ncip1c thrrt this party works upon i~ that land should be put to its be ·t use; and tl1N<: 1:-> 110 indication forthcorning fron1 tlH' '1'n~a­~urc•r or an_yonc else that this land

morn productive as tho rcsu !t of J,._ it o-oinrr to be .'"''rgued for

that n:e la~1d ~ill produce -~ higher ere)

[JI1·, .SmillL

b~.- reasou of the change in tenur-e, or_, because of a changl' in the tenure of the land on V?hich Lu::;iness premises are erected, any increased bu"iness will result to the owner of the building? The ansvver, of C'ourse, i3 in the ll<'gative. It does not affect it in anv way at all. I view the Bill with su~­IJi(··ion. · ?lnd it, can onlv be rrgarded as a continuation of the po)ic~y of the ·Governn1cnt in proceeding to dissipate the public estate.

The TREASL'HER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, 1rp111111 m) : For the information of the Leader of thP Oppo::.ition as \voll as other hon. mewbers, I desire to state that the method of a:-:se~:;;.ing the value of the business sites ''"ill be twenty times the present leasehold annual rental. The same principle wjll be adopt0d in asse::;sing tho valuo of the reside-u­tial JFa,ehold 'itPs. Either party will han• a right to appeal to the Land Court if it i:;; 1.ot sarisfied with the value determined.

:\Ir. "\Y. FORG.\::-r S'I!ITH: That is a rough­and-ready method of arriving at the value.

Tlw TREASURER : The hon. member n1ight say that everything done on this side is roug·h aml re ,dy; but that idea sf'ems to b~· :tn- ob::;P~'-'ion with hint at this juncture. Tlw propo· al i::' a concrete one based on t't!uity, and I lH1YC' not the slightest hesita­tion in expre~;:;ing the opinion that any dis­interP:-h")d re>r~Oll looking- illtO the question will say that the right thing is bring done at tlH· pt'('_,c•nt juncture.

Mt. STOPFORD (Mount M organ): I would like the Treasurer to clear up ono or two points '' hich I shall make between now and the tinw he makes his second reading Rpoech. .\, the Leader of the Opposition statPc!, the lands at Babind" were taken up 'JllH~ ;·f'a.r:; agu under the perpetual lease :-Y~tem on. I bu1ieYc, a rental of 3 per cent. on thu eapit.al Yaluc. The Crown re:::crvcd thl' rig·ht to nappraisc the rent periodically. ~\ gn•at de a! of our public rnoney has b('cn cxpnlldcd in deYeloping that district. Many piouPnr~ ha VL' gone. and other& have taken their place. There has been a big influx of Italians, and the result of the expenditure bot-h of mom·v and of labour has enhanced the va hw of the land in tbe distriet. Th" JWriod for a. rcappraisen1ent of land Yalue:-:; in the Babinda district must be near. and that should he done before any capital valu<> based on 3 per cont. rental with a twenty· yours' tPnur~: is deDidcd on. As the LcadPr ;,f the Opposition stated, that is a roul?h­and-eeadv wav of comparmg the relahvc valuPs of feeel;old and leasehold lands. The State should have the capital value of thP land assessed on the basis of returning to tlw Stato a fair measure of the unearned incretncnt.

I p;oe a dang·pr in thi;;; rneasure frmn tho point of view of the sugar industry. Every­one knows that there has been an influx into this di .trice of Italians. both as 'vorkers and u~ farrn-owner<;'. In many instances theso Italians hcvc naid inflated Yalucs for their farms.. Those 'values hav-e meant that they lm vc· had to work all sorts of hours to rneet their f,Jmmitments.

To-day we find the 'Treasurer, without an.v public (L rnand on the matter. givjng art

for 'pccnlntion to be indulged induf:try i~ ·dependent on tho

the pcoplC., not only of Qucons-cf Australia. :EYerv action that

taking- tO-day haE tho the purchasing po\~·er

Racing Regulation Bill. [2 OcTOBER.] Racing Regulation Bill. 1343

of the people; and, if that action is per­sisted in, it will not be long before the vast, arrny of <'Onsumers rise up and dmnand that action be taken to wipe aw~y what some p"opl<> regard as a false protection. The convcrsjon of the tenure fron1 perpetual l0asPhold to fre<'hold will throw open land in that district for speculative purposes; am! speculation will result in the over­capitalisation of the land, which should bo avoid,,d, particularly in an industry that is d<'pPJHient on the good will of the people' of Aw•tralia. To say that the capital value c;f land in a prugrcssivl' district like Babinda. where cnorn1cns sun1s of publie moncy ha Ye' bcPtl spent. should be based on twent\- V('Ur!:-1' a11nual rPntal at 3 per ('t'nt., an~-1 'to gin_• away the heritage of future gcneratinlls of Australians is to say ~01ncthing that to 111e sf~Dnls ·wrong. Unless 11H~ TreasurPr C'an adduro greater argnn1cnts than lw ha' do1w at thi, stage. we on this side of the Committee will have to fi£tht the n;.Pa~urc, hccau"f~ \VC cannot be a p~n·t:· to inflietilll2,' great hard-,hips on those \\·ho ha,·c to carry on the indnRtry n1erely for thl' lll'lWfit of a few per,on'. Land should not b,: a thing to l1o phyed with by any ~·jH•c·u1ator~ IYho like to con1c along.

:VIr. O'KEEFE (f.'airns) : In introducing this Bill the Treasurer stated that those people who do not wish to convert from perpetual lPaschold need not do so. I understand the Bill will give the loeal anthcrity powpr to control the land after co11version. I would like the Treasurer to idorm the CommitteP what will be the positio11 of those who do nut conYcrt.

Que~tion pnt n11d pa:::::->cd.

Th0 I-TDnsP re~um0d.

The CH.\JJUJ.IX rr·portPd that the Com­Jnittee had con1e to a re~o1ution.

Ht>.·-olu1 io11 ngTeC'd to.

[3 p.m.J

FIRRT RE.\IlJXG.

The TRE.-\SL'REH (Hon. W. H. Barnes, W.'l'"'"m) pre"'ntod the Bill, and moved-

,. Thar the Bill be now read a ftrst· tiuw."

Question put and passed_

S0cond reading of the Bill made an Order uf tlw Day for to-morrow.

RACI::'\G REGl'LATIOX BILL.

IxJTIAnox rx Co>rMITTEE.

!Jfr. I!ob(rts, Has! 1'ool('oomba, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Bames, 1F,11111111m): I beg to mo,e-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amend the law relating to rucccoursL'::' and rare meeting~. and for othP·l' purposes."

In cloi1tg thi,<-·~

:\Jr. PEASE: You arc doing· it all right.

The 'TREAS1~HER : Hon. members ar0 perfectly emTcct--ev<'ryt hing I do I do all right. Altlwugh 110t in every particular, this Bill ,-cry largely follows the recommen­dations of the Racing Commission which sat u fc,y n1onths ago as a rosult of Tcqucst:-J \vhieh IYf'rP Jllaclt' by Iwarly eyery racing

authority that racing should be looked into bv the Government. That commission did splendid work, and brought in a very full report. The Bill proposes to do away in 1931 both with proprietary and unregistered race mPtlting·s. The "'commendation of the commission Y:ill be followed verv fullv in regard to racing days. The Comn1i~sion re<:ommeudecl that there should be 104 racing· days, but I should explain that the Bill makes pro,-isiou for sixty-two days for registered ·race rnectings, as suggested by the cornn1i~~ sim~, and fift_,r-t\YO days for unregi:stered racing. That is an increa~e of ten days in the year, and thll Dill dilfprs from the com­rni:;:~ion's rrcom1ncndation in that rC'gard.

:C.lr. \V. FoRGAx Smnr: Does that appiy to 1 he whole State?

The TREASCRER: In some directiom the Act applies to the whole of the State.

:\fr. \Y. FORGAx SmTH: Who will allocate the racing days·:

The TREASGREH : The Queensland Turf {

1!ub-thc leading racing club in tho State­will allocatP the sixty-two days fo·r regis­tered nH.'cting:-:-;, but in connection with the fi.ftv-two daYs thC' TreasurE-r will haYe the all~tment. ·

At the end of the ,-par 1931 the oommis­:::ion':" rccclnrncndatior~ ,vill be reYertcd to, anc11C4 will be the number of davs on which racing 0an be held in any year· after that date. The Pxtra ten clays only apply to the ye~r 1931, and at the end of that year nnregi~terr d 'ra{'Ing vvill have pas~f'cl out altogether.

Mr. HAxr.ox: 'rh<' clavs allotted to pro­prir,tary and unregistered racing ·will go to tlll' registon'cl clubs after 1931?

The TREASPRER: Ye". ::\lr. IIAKLOX: The n~g·istered 111eeting;;; will

not be limited to sixty-two clays after 1931?

The TREASUREU: I have already told tlw Committee !"hat they will rnort to 104 days. That is a reconuncnda.tion of the Racing Commission. Ten days will haYe to be 'truck out, and the other days will then have to be reallotted. The racing davs will be allotted by the Queensland Turf Club. The 1nectings as·, igncd to certain holidays. ho11. members will be nleasPd to know. are ldt open-Easter Mo{iday, Labour Day, and similar days. Those are the only days upon which race meetings can be held. apart from the Saturdays.

I have alreadv advised as to when the other meetings ,;ill be held, and the alloca­tion of the davs will be left entirelv to tho Treasurer. AD.other very important" point is that in connection with races at courses like Kodron Park the number of horses is to be limited. It has been found that there has been some danger from having an excessive number of horses running, and the number of horses is to be limited to twelve.

l'>Ir. W. FoRGAN S:IIITH: Do you moan twelve horses in each race?

The TREASURER : Twche in each race. The hon. member apparontl.v does not know there are six races in the afternoon.

Another proYision in the Bill is that whore a racPcourse is less than 1 rnile in cireun1-fc·renco no mere t !tan tweh-e horses will be nl1o1Yed to race in anv one vvent. At the Coorparoo racecourse Onl,v trotting raceR ·will

Hon. W. H. Bar·ncs.]

1344 Racing Regulation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Racing Reg.dation Bill.

be allowed, and the horse and pony races will be discontinued.

Another provision in the Bill, which has bc8n already indicated in the prr •J, is that provision is being m ado for bookmakers to be sued and to sue for bets that arc made on the rucccoursc, but not outs:do the racc­\"'oursc. Thoro are jockeys who have to reduce t1 keep dov~'n 10 weights that arc so very le w as to brl dangerous io their health, and pr wision is m acto in the Bill that no jockey sho H be all m• ed to ride at les., than 7 stone.

Mr. vV. FORGAN S:\1I'l'H (51ackay): I list8l·.ed yery carefully to the speech of the Treaturer, and it is fitting and proper that we sl.ould do that-I am always prepared to list •n to experts on any given .subject­(laughbr)-but the information the Treasurer gave us about the control of racing may not have been thought valuable by those who haYe heard it. 'l'he hon. gentleman pointed out that he intended to follow very large!) the recommendations of the Racing Com­mission.

At the end of 1931 proprietary and unregis­tered racing· will be abolished, and there­after racing by registered bodies only will be permitted, and under th" control of the Treasurer. Apparently the idea is to give an opportunity to unregistered and pro­prietary concerns to confonn to the con­ditions laid down by registering or forming clubs, as the case may be. The point I rc·ally rose to make at this stage is whether there are any taxation proposals in the Bill. Do the Government, for instance, propose to make any alteration with regard to the control of totalisators?

The TREASURER: No.

Mr. W. FORGAN Sjy1ITH : A percentage of the investments is taken by the State at present. Is the Treasurer, for example, dealing with bookmakers' licenses and the taxation of those licenses?

The TRE.\SFRER: No.

Mr. W. FORGAN Sl\HTI-I: Is he dealing with the question of permitting betting in registered shops? I understand the Govern­ment have decided, as a mrtttor of policy, to issue licenses to betting shops under cer­tain safeguards.

The 'l'nEAS1!RER: That is not correct.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: I am merely asking for information. \Ve know that from' time to time statements have been made to that r fl'ect.

The TREASUREr: : This Bill deals with race­course"'·

~Mr. W. FORGA:"! S1HTF!: It duds only with raceLourc. '>-it is not .o. betting bill?

The TRc·\SUiER: It has only to do with bDttintr on racecourses.

~1r. \V. FORG . .t~.~.J ST\1ITII: Is there any alteration in the conditions relating to bot­ling urdcr the law as it stands at prT .ent?

The THEASCHER: No.

M.r. 'F. FORGAN Sl.\1ITH: \\ e know, of cour,r, from iho press that th,, question of b~ ttinor debts has been dealt \vith by the Govcr;1ment, and they propose to give the right to suo for the recovery of betting debts.

'l'h,; TREA-,URER: I told the Committee that that was so only in respect of bets made on a racecourse.

[Hon. W. H. Barncs.

Mr. W. FORGA?\' SMITH: Then people will ha V" power to sue for the rccovorv of debts due as the result of bets made on a. e CCl'Otnsc. I do not propose at this s~age lo deal fully with the proposal. Yen­full and rnaturc consideration will have to b~ given to the Bill when we get pA•. se· si on of it. Pcrsonnll,·, I do not know very much "bout the sphject of mcin'l', and that is the l'eason why I listened very carefully to the ::::peech of the Trca::;:nrcr. 1vho, of coursE·! can Le n:>garde:d a,", <.:_D authority on all things relating to r<::dng and racecourse::J.

T!w THEASuRER (Hon. W. H. Barnee, 1Vynnum) : I do not think I made myself quite clear on one point. The fifh·-two drt_v,; v:hich are being set apart in the Bill for unregistered racing are for that form of racing only, so long as it continues. The other days will be quite separate from them. I failed also to mention that the Bill make>• provision for wiping out the Strathpine racecourse.

Mr. STOPFORD: Do you give Tattersall's Club any definite dates?

The 'l'REASUR ER: The Bill does not allot any dates.

:!\1r. COOPER (Bremer): The Racing Com­mission recommended that forty-two days should be given to unregi&tered clubs, and at least eight of those days to the Ipswich Turf Club; and I think the commission said that that club was the only bona fide unregis­tered club racing in this State. The evidence giYen before the commission went to show tlutt the whole of i·he funds were practically expended on Government property known as Bundamba racecrmrse. I had the honour of being a member of the deputation which the Treasurer was good enough to meet, at which the trustees expressed a desire that twelve days during each year might be allotted to them instead of eight. They urged that all the profit they make is spent upon the improYemcnt of the course, and has bc8n for the last twenty-five years, and that that increase of racing dates would give them a better opportunity to contin~o to conduct racing in the efficient way m which it has hith< rto been conducted on that course I understand that the Bill does not allocate the dates to the clubs, but leaves that entirely to the Treasurr r.

I hop,' that the Treasurer will ~ivc every consideration to the recommcndatwn of the trustees ~tnd of the Ipswi<:h Amateur Turf Club and "ill grant them a quota of ~>--,,lYe da:ys out of the fifty-bvo al1otted for unrL;gis­tcrcd rac-: lDL otings.

Mr. HAXLON (ltlvica): I should iikc to know from the Treasurer whether the sixty­two da'; allotted to registered race meetings IYill jndudc race meetings held for charit­a!Jle purpC"'s. The Cuccnsland Tud Club holds ono 1neeting for charit __ ,· in C'<tch :'ear. ~ 1,d the nrou:cds arc dlstrihut( d arnong· Yariou" th.~ritablo institutions in the city. r honld iiko to knm,, from the Trca,urer '· hethr·r this dav will be counted as o!J~ of tho sixty-two i-ncntionccl, ne v;hethl~r t'n '"lditional day will be allm'.-ed.

The TREASuRER (lion. \Y. H. Barnu, 1Fynnum): Tho n1attor mcnt1oncd b, the hon. morr1ber for Ithaca \Yas not dcrtn1tely brought up when the Bill 1va 1 undf'r ron­-.,ideration; but., \vithout being quite sure of

Pi.~a"',cial Statement. [2 OCTOBER.] Financiu1 Statement. 1345

my fact,, I think that a rar0 meeting lwld for charitable purposes will have> to be ono of the cix:t··.f\yo clan allottNl. I can assm·0 the hon. ~~1crnber 'that cvcrv consideration vvill bH given to th~\ quf':,tio;l of race mclt­ings for charitable pUl'flD 0s.

In reply to the hon. Int:."mhcr for BrPmor, I have to admit that the position of the Ipswich Amateur 'Turf Club is as he states. 'The hon. member for Brerncr and the hon. member for Ipswich v. aitcd on me by way cf deputation in C'onnection ,,,ith this rnatter; and, without making any definite promisB that t·;,·clve days Viill be allotted out of the number of da:·s allotted to unre>gistered raco meetings, the matter will receive favourablt · consideration.

Mr. 1\IuLLAN · In what resp(ct, if any, doe' the Bill deal with racing outside of the Bris­bane district?

The 'TREASURER: It applies to districts outside of Brisbane only to the extent that proprietary racing throughout Queensland will have to go.

Question put and passed.

The House resumed.

The CHAIRMAN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

Resolution agreed to.

FIRST READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. \V. H. Barnes, lVynnurn) presented the Bill, and moved-

" That the Bill be now read a first time."

Que,tion put and passed.

Second reading of the Bill made an Order of the Day for to·morrow.

TRK\SURER'S FINANCIAL 'TABLES.

'The 'TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Barncs, 1Vynnum) presented the tables relating to the Treasurer's Financial Statement for the year 1930-31.

Ordered to be printed.

ESTEviATJi:S.J:\'.CHIEF, 1930·31.

The SPEAKE!t reported the receipt of a n1eso.:age fron1 His Excellency the Governor, fnn\ :uding the " E~timatos of the Probable \Yays and Means and Expenditure of the GO\"Cl'llnlC11t of Qnl r:nsland for the year ending 30th .Tun/', 1331."

Ordered to hP printed, and referred to Committee of Supply.

FI'!\"A:\CL\L STATEMENT.

CO:SIJ\iiTTEE OF SUPPLY.

(Jfr. Roherts, l"'.i'ast 'Toowoomba, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (lion. W. H. Barncs, 1Fynnum):

::Mr. Roberts,-Thc honour once again devolves upon me of laying before honour· able members a statement of the financial position, and of submitting to this House proposals for meeting the requirements of the Government for the financial year 1930· 1931.

It will be remembered that in my last Budget Statement I mentioned the many difficulties lying a head of the Government. 'The unprecedented financial depression which has recently overtaken Australia has reached such an acute stage during the last twelve months that the Queensland Govern· rnent, in common with all other Australian Governments, finds itself faced with the most critical financial problems.

I forecast that the Consolidated Revenue .Account for last vear would show a deficit of £176.142, altho;:,gh I confidently expected that this sum would be considerably reduced by economics during the year. Unfortu­nately, despite the fact that a large saving was effected, the abnormal decrease in receipts nullified any advantage gained by i hi, means. Expenditure was reduced to £314,822 belo''· the estimate, and £181,09() below the expenditure for the previous year, but receipt< fell short of my estimate by £861,865. Consequently, the transactions for the ycae resulted in a deflCit of £723,185.

The total utimated and actual receipts o.nd 0xpenditure for the year 1929·1930 wcr<' as follows :- ·

Estimated. ActuaL £ £ £

Receipts 16,859,735 15,997,870 Under estimate 861,865 Expenditure 17,(1:15.877 16,721,055 Saving of 314,82£

----Deficit £176,142 £723,185

----

H must not be overlooked that the con­tribution of £313.535 towards the redemp­tion of the public debt forms part of the deficit.

It will be noted that the deficit of £723.lfJ5 exceed' bv £7CD the amount disclosed in tho ae"ounts ~s published o;, the 1st July last. Thi. adjt:strncnt is renckred Ilt_Ccssary ovy·ing to the sum in question having been rc•rnittod to ihe Trea;:)ury during the n1onth of Juno for credit of Consolidated Revonuo Funcl instead of Lca,n Fund. The error 11as since been reported to the Treasury by the Auditor· G cneral, it having been discovered in the

1930-·4 0

course of the audit of the accounts of the department conccnwd. As the Auditor­GPnc'ral h ts requf'st-,d that the~ ncces·,,'J,ry adjustment be rwtdo, he will don·btlesc main· tain t.ha.t the account~:: for la,st financial yea.r 'houlcl bo -;led. l have thcrcfon: .mack t}w rorrr ._dthough I mn of opinion that t 1terc to be gained by alterinr: last year's -:.

I would liko to mention at this stage, for tloo information of honou:·able members, that. for the pur_;_l0-0 of co:npari:--:n \Yith previou~ YG'·rf', th' a:no:tnt of £1,096.235 rcccivPd from the C'o,nnonwcalth Government toward,

Hon. lV. Il. B~mu's.]

1346 Financial Statement. [ASSEMBLY.] Finrmcial Statement.

intPrPet on the public debt has been Rhown as a recP1pt, and not a~ a deduction from tbe Pxpenditure for that Rervice. At the request of the Commonwealth Treasun· this amount was deducted from the gross' interest, and 1 he net arnount only 'vas appropriated in last )'Car's cstiruatcs of expenditure. It has been dccidecl, howm·er, to r(•vc•rt to the practice of prf'vious ~-C'ar~. a11d includP the amount a::; an it 'nl nudt>r thr l10adiu~ of "Receipts."

'rhP Ilf'C'P~sarv altel'ations havt~ been n1ade in all ihP tab!(•,; relating to the receipts and expenditure on account of Consolidatc'd H.cYenuc Fuml for last yertr.

The follmYing taJ,lcs show the receipts and PXpenditnrE' under thE' n1ain lH'acls as -corn­pared \Vith tlw Budget estimat.c. Additional df'tr~i1s 1nav be a':'-cL•rtaint•d on referencl' to t 11(• Bndgc•t tables.

RECEIP'PS, 1929·1930.

Hc:td of Hcvcnue. Budget Estimatr-.

--------~----------

Amount rer eivcd from Collmlmnn_•alth Taxation Land ~~ining Railways Other receipt'

£ 1,090,23:i 4,549,000 1,478,000

48,400 7,675,000 2,013,100

Receipts. I @ver Fndcr

I Estimate. Estimate. ,--------!---·-·--!

£ £ £, 1 ,096,~35

251,582 4,297,J18 1,296,95fi 181,044

55,8()9 (), }}(j~) :ns.,9J1 7,3;)6,059

1,895,H3:l 117,267

Totals Hi,859,735 i 15,997,870 I ------~----v------~_1

n.u69 868,834 ~----"~- -----'

Under estimate £8u1,sG:; I i

£86l,.S6G

EXPENDITURE, 1929-1930.

Head of Expenditure.

Schedules . . . . Interest on the l'ublic Debt Executive and Legislative Premier and Chief Secretary Home Secretary ~Public Works . Labour and Industry Justice Treasurer Public Lands .. Agriculture and 8tock Public Instruction Mines Rail~1ays

Budget Estimate.

£ 67rl,5:29

5,181,542 36,541

Hi4,1H 1,5()4:,207

229,128 51,525

201,301 426,90~ :l:l0,3Hl l7ti,601

1,716,200 7:~,687

6,~08,220

Exp('nditurP.

£ 661,299

5,181,116 :38,331

161,2tHi 1,632,511

216,965 47,277

191,2():! 433,63+ 305,2!i:l 150,~04

1,692,52;) 64,649

5,944, lti:l

Over Estimate.

1.791)

ti.7:l0

l'ndcr T~stimatC'.

£ 14,230

42ti

~.YOB

12',i6:! 4,248

liJ.O:liJ

~.),{)(j.)

:25,791 ~:3,67:>

9,038 2G4,057

17,035,877 16,721,055 70,82--! 391,64(} -~---------y-~-------'i - -~----- ______ ..J

-under cstima tP

ll.ECEIPTS, 1929-1930.

The revenue for the vear anwunted to £15,997,870, or £861,865 ~nder the estimate. every head of revenue with the t•xception of mining receipts falling below the anticipated fi!.!u re" : our two n1ain sources of revcnue­ta~'\:ation and railways~bcing under the e"ti­mato by £251,582 and £318,941 m,pcctively. Jn fact, the unexpected diminution in these n'<:eipts was the principal cause of the deficit for the yl'ar, and it will be seen that the amount by which the total receipts were short of the ostirnate~£861.865~more than accounted for the actual deficit of £723,185.

Taxation receipts WPl'O £251.582 und-er thP Fstirnatc and £374.234 lrs,; than the total <:lnlount re{'eivcd in thC' pn:v-ions year. Income• tax produecd £2.449.560. ooing £150,440 shore of the estimate; the decrease, in thC' other sources of taxation being--land t n. £13,468. liccnsp,; £779. stamp duty £77.717, and tot.a1 isator p nd br"-ting tax £2.178.

IHun. W. H. Banvs.

£314,822 £,:3] ~.822

The prPYalling deprcs;:;lon and it~ rapid de,·clopment naturally account for tlw decline iu taxation rPceipb<, and, taking thf~Sf> cir­C'Ulllf,tances into consideration, the amount TeceiYf'd frorn this source of reYCllU<~ 1nust bt: rPgarltl'd a . ..; .satisfactory.

Land r<'venue yiPlded £181,0+4 less than the cstimatP, the receipts from selections fall­ing short bj £136.171, and those from pas­toral occupation b~, £44,873. The total arnount ·rcceiYed fron1 land reyenue is £148.602 under that of the prtwious year, this being accounted for by the abnormal cOil· clition of the wool market.

l{&Jlwav rPYelltH' fca~ thr' vrar an1onntcd to £7,356,058. whieh was £2l1,222 under tlw total for the previous y:•ar and £318,941 under th0 cstirnah'. Th1~ deelinn in tbe return from this pnhlic utility is a matll'r of ~~ravp irnportancP. Our railv:<Jys arc suffer­ing in C'ouunon wit 11 tho~o of the, atiter StatP~, atht thP L·arnin: .. :: powf•J· of tlu'": :-:;f'rYir:->s rnust

Financial Statement. [:? OcTOBElt.] Tinantial Statement.

_.ontinuc~ to be impairC'd until \Ye can ~uceePd in re:;:toring our~elvC's to a condition of nnrnml pro,;;;pf'rit~r.

ThP return rccei ved for the year on capital invested in the rrtilway' of the State is very disappointing. and amount0d to only £2 4s. 2d. pcr cent. On reference to Budget Table L ]t will bP SC()Il that this undertaking consti-1 ntr-d nn a('tual ehargP on f'Onsolidated reve­Ina_• of £1,601,411.

Other recpipts totalled £1,895,833, or £117,2&7 lc>ss rhan the estimate, thE; main ( au~f' of 1 he ;.;lwrtagc being brought about b,· the n•duction in the amount received for ir;tl'l"C··t oa loans to local Lodies and public balancc•s. which yieldc•d £1,031,038, or £95.962 <mdn the Pstimate. The receipts LUlclPr this heading wuulcl have been further ,-.,ducPd had surplus cash not been loaned to :lw C'ommonwcalth GovernmPnt. Tlw inTPTP:-It ('arnrd during the year by this means :tmount.cd i"o £58.770.

EXl'EXIliTl'RE, 1929-30.

Tlw >tllll of £16.721,055 was expended from Consolidated RPvenuP Account during thP year, a saving of £314,822 on the estimate.

From tlw foregoing table, showing the expenditure under the various heads, it will be t>CCll that :-;avings "·ere effected in nearly t'Yery departrnent, the L'xceptions being Executiv0 and Legi~latiYl\ I-Iorr1e Sccretarv's DPpartrrH'llt. and TrPa~urer. ~

Thu exces:-:. in Exe~utivc and Legislative '' practicall)· all accounted for by the additional amount of £1.521 which had to b·· provided for tlH' cost of " Hansard" and o1 her printing.

[3.30 p.m.]

In thP llorue Rt'CTf'tur.: 's Departn1ent the :·o,t oi outdoor relief amounted to £91,369 HlOTl' than tlw sun1 apvropriated. After allowiJig for ilH• Pxeess in thi~ Yote, thP rcinaiud('l' of the votPs in this departrnent "lhowl•d a ~a Ying of £23,065.

The sum of £14,782 v. as paid as subsidy to local authorities for the relief of Lmem· ployrn0nt. and this t'XPt'lHliture, which was

not provided for in thC' Ei'titnate~. rnorE> than account~ for tht• f'Xf't':3~ in the depart­ment of tlH' 'Treasurer, which amounted to £6,730.

The savings in thP otlwr departments totalle-d £391.646. the bulk of which was the rPsult of economics in the Railwe1y Depart· nwnt. \Vhore thP disburserncnts ~howcd a n·duction of £264.057 on thP amount appro· priated; but I reg-ret to say that this saving was n1ore than offset by the dirninu­tion iu tho receipts, which amounted to £318,941. I might further mention that the <"nst of this department was £256.638 less than that for the preYion~ yt~ar.

~\& proini"-'e·cl L~r IlH' when delivering rn:' la~t Budgd-. an organi"ecl and sustained effort .Wad ll1ade to rPducP cx:p0ndituro during the :n;ar, and the fig-urh which I have just quoted demonstrate that thi> effort bore yery consi-derable result'"'·

'l'h<' interest on thl' public dflbt and pa\ · n1enb nndcr gpecial appropriations--,vhich 1night be tcrnwd contractual expenditure-­amounted to £5,842,415. and represents nearly 35 pn ecnt. of the total of the expcnditun• from the Revenue Account.

A large proportion of the <'xpendituro from CDnsolidate<l rPvPnUP consists of fixed paynJcnt" on 'vhich no cnrtailrnent is po11 siblP, unless some of the Sl'rl'iePs at present rPndered bv th0 StatP arp to be eliminated m restricte'd.

The hPavy expansion in the cost of pn)· Yiding for what arf' kno,vn as soeial scrvi< ,Js, :-;u('h as charitablL' institution~, insanitv, child welfarP" t'ducatiou, etc., is a source of grave concern to thP Governtncnt. ThP cost of t hPSl' sprvicc", during the past fifteen year:-; has grovvn out cf all proportion to 1 hP 8tatc's capacity to <:arry then1- Tho charg·c on conso1idal'l'·d rPYenue la~t year arno{Intcd to £2,635.528. being au iucroas~J of £1,8\'),803, or 216 pn cent., as eom· pai'Pd \Yith tlw ,\'C.:tl' 1914-15.

ThP following tablP will sPrve to show the expansion in the outlay on thc:;c 6t~rviees for the year 1929-30, a,, eDmparPd with the year 1914-15, and the imTPase in tlw ''xpt·n· ditunl, in Ci..-.....:h case:-

Scrvkr. Expenditure

for Year 1914·1915.

Expenditure for Year

1929-1930.

Inercase : over Yt\"lr !

1914·1 915, .

Increase per ('Cnt.

ltelief of Aboriginals .. ·Charitable Institutions and Grants Health Insanity Outdoor Relief State Children Education ..

£ 22,878 41,774 16,122 91,90-l 5,870

73,539 582,63;)

£ 61,301

108,6(i8 2·1,268

221,751 123,201 209,347

1,722,522

£ 38,423 66,894

8,146 129,847 ] 17,3:34 135,808

1,139,889

163 160

50 141

1,90\l 185 19G

Unemployment Insurance (G-oY~rnn1ent grant only) ~~~~~~ -~1_6_-±_,±_6_7 __ , 164,467

Totals £834,720

This outlay reprcspnts !lParly 16 per cent. of thP total expPnditurL' frorr1 consolidated !'C'VC'llU(. or a ch:.trge of £2 16~. 7·d. per head of povulation. This <'Ollstitutcs an undue• proportion of the total C':pcnditurc of

£2,63.5,528 i £1,800,~08

the State, and it i• a hl'rtYy lmrdPn on tho taxpa:'-'·ers.

Owing to thu greatly incrL'ased C03t of these scn·icc,, it would appear that \\C lmvlJ rl'achcd a stagr- \vhen it 111ight be des.irablo

Hon. TV. H. Ban1es.;

1348 Pinctncial Statement . [AS8EMBL Y.] Financial Stat llleni.

to rovie·w tho po~.it1on fron1 the taxpa:-cr"s point of view.

Another rclnrtrkablo instance of abnormal growth can be found in comparing the cost Of salaries rrnd wah2s of th.· public service on 30th ,J mw, 1915, and 30th June, 1930. On tho forrnf'r datr, 28,121 peroons were employed by the State, and th"ir salarif's and wu,gcs amounted to £4,134,689. On tlw 30th June last the number of emplcyccs had increased to 32,992, and salaries and "\Vagc-" to £9,306.736. Of this sum, £7,677,765 for 27,486 employees was a charge on the Revenue Fund. Details arc not obtainable of the number of employees paid from Revenue, Trust, and Loan Funds, respce­tively, on 30th J uno, 1915, but the charge on revenue alone at 30th June, 1930, was greater by £3,543,076 than the total oost of all salaric< and wages fifteen years ago. This is an increase <Jf 86 per cent., although 635 fewer employees were receiving the increased sum.

TRUST FuNDS.

The Trust Funds transactions during last year, when compared with the previous year, s·how a falling-off in both receipts and expen­diture, which is mainly the effect of the disposal of the several State enterprises.

The receipts totalled £5,700,600, the prin­cipal of which were Central sugar-mills £863,853, main roads £915,633, State insur­ance £1.205,184, State coalmines £210,114, State enterprises £278,062, and unemploy­ment insurance £490,568.

The expenditure during the year amounted to £5,276,778, the largest transactions being in the Central sugar-mills £851,734, har­bour dues £179,909, main roads £670,294, State coalmines £197,376. State enterprises £200,701, State insurance office £878,904, unemployment insurance £517,780, and unem­ployment relief £35,612.

During the year sums amounting in the aggregate to £967,502 Ss. lld., representing estimated further trading lo"es on State enterprises. were w;·itten off the relative Trust Fnnds, and tranderred to Loan Fund as follows :-

Chillagoe State SmelterR Fund State Coal ~'Cines Ii'und State Ente~prises Fund

£ 8. d. 610,122 15 5

89,412 lfl 6 258,\JGG 14 0

£967,502 5 11

La•;t :year I stated it was nvident that the bulk of capital and tmding lose os, amounting to £3.458,789, would have to be written off. The capital lm.•os arc already borne by th. Loa.n Fund, but they will eventually have to be written ofi tho accounts of t ho various c'ntcrpriscs, b~forc tho.<~ account"" c~n be ciosed.

The amount of £967.502 5s. llcl. is com­prised wholly of tra.din'" Ios cs, as n·-·nrly as could b,, ascerhin0d at 30th June, 1930. after a!lo'.Ying for outstanding balances of the JHOcCc(h; of tb' salc8 of various assPt··. If thc.c outstanding ammmt3 arc not

[Hon. W. H. Ban~es.

recov-ered, further ·writings-off will be lll'c,·~; sary.

The tran;;fcr to Loan Fund of the trading­los~cs has ihlprovc.d the general position of the Trust Funds, and with the the Closer Settlement l<'tlllcl, Stock Fund, Irvinebank State Treatment 'Works Fund, and Sapphire Tradin:~ _._\ccount, tho rrru;;:t Funds may bo regarded a~ being i.n a satisfactory condition.

The balance to the ere lit of the Trust Funds on the 30th June, 1930, \:as £602,932, which is an improvement of £930,873 when compared with the debit balance of £327.941 at the end of the previous :,·car.

LOAN FUND.

I would remind the Committee that tha Au-ditor-General, in his annual report pre­sented to Parliament last year, took excnp­tion to thA manner in which the account current of the Loan Account appeared in the Treasurer's annual statement of thfll public accounts, and ho stated that, in his opinion, the balance shown at 30th June, 1929, was understated by £250,000. I explained at the time, and I now desire to repeat the explanation, that the account cur­rent was compiled with the object of show­ing the available cash balancc>., and not with the desire of concealing any transactions in connection with loan cash. The account has again been compiled on these lines, bul footnotes have been added showing the dis­posal of the total Loan Fund balance. This, I trust, will ·rcmoYc the cauce for any fur­ther objection bv tho Auditor-General.

The Auditor-General also stated in his last r~port that he was of opinion that the sum of £140,000 received from the Common­wealth Government for advance' in connec­tion with wire and wire-netting for settlers had not been shown correctly in tho Trea­surer's accounts. In explanation of the omis­sion of this sum from the public debt of ':;he State, I may say that a trust account has been established in connection with this liability. The repayments received from per­sons to whom advances have been mado are paid into this fund, and these rep&) 1 nents are utilised to meet interest and sinking fund contributions payable by the State. 'I'he a.grocmcnt with the Co1nmonwealth G oYern­mcnt provides for the payment Ly tho State of 1. sinking· fund contribution at the rate of £2 por cent. per annum for twenty­five Y~' :rs, aft<'r v:hich the liabilitJ of the State to make any further payn cnts on Hr,<:ount of interc ,t or sinl:_ing fund ceases. The' State 1\'ould have to pi'OI-ic!c these pay­monh from its own fnnds, only in tho event of hiluro on the part of borrowers tc meet, their liabilities as they fall due. In the circulnstancr-s, I think the .J .. etion in creating a trust account i., correct. The Cof:'l­D10n\vecdth doe" not inch1dc the amount in the public C:cbt of the State for the pur­}Y),, :.1 of the Financial 1-\grrcrncnt. and for this re~1son only it is drsirable to adhere to the prcsrnt practice, as unifor!nity murt be prc;<'rvod in th'"' rf'lations between th~ Commomvc1.lth and the State so far as tht' .Financial ..t\_grecmcnt is conrcrned.

Pinaneird 8tuten1enL L:l 0CTOBBJR.] Financial StatemPnt.

Ba1a-r"e at current account, ls:t July, 1920 Jteceiph during thr- year-

Repayments lJy Lf)( tl Authorities, &c. . . . . . . ltcceipt8 Hll(lf'r ,. The Tand Sal er' Proceed,· Act of 1911 " . . . . BJ~paymcmt 1J;.7 Connnonwr 1ltll Govcrnmp;nt. oi portion of temporary Ioan H_eccived on acc_.nnt of Soath Dris1Janc-K: ogle Raihra.y }1rocc-~ds of loan issucs-

Australi.:--:J± p< r cent. (dorrlc~tic is·- IC'R) .. 51 per cent. (o\ er~thc-cqunter i~ ~ues)

Le-~; Cl! a rges ..

State':-; proportion of loans issued hy Conunon\Ycalth Govcrnnlcnt­n }'''f {'ent. (to l'O\-cr Corrv-~-~sion Bxpen--es IJoan 1naturcd 15th

:1lart'll, l D:lO) . . . . . . • . . . • • d} 1K~r cr•nt. (Balance not reet·h;cd ·~t 30th June, 1 U29) ..

Pro('eells of loans rniseU Ly the Conlmon·wcalth to convert debentures and inscribed stock ~\·hic:llmatureLl during tile ycar-

Australia--6 per unt. :'Sl per ernt.

London-

£

350,000 191,220

541,220 2,"1-04

& per cent- 12,--!03,734

13,050,334

£

1,441,620 H,l27

750,000 73,24G

~ess ('hargf'~ 540,962 ··---~- l:J,±OU,37~

0' 'The Cormnonn·ealth Bank Agreement natijicrrtion and State Advancs.<; Act of

19:20-Loan fron1 Commonwullth Savings Hank on account of inerease iu

dC'pt1~itors' balances 1.0141000

·~;btru-:-;enteuts lluriug the year--Expenditure as. per Budget Table B;> . . . . . . f>pbentures and inscrilJed Rtock converted during the year " rpJw Commonu·ealth Hank _._·1areement Ratification and State Ad1•ances

Act of 1920 "-On aec6unt of redemption of deposit, receipt

Temporary loans to the Comnwrnvealth Government <.;tmnp dl!ty on loans raisc<l in J. .. ondon . . . . . . . . "1'ransfPr tu TTU81J _Funds on account of adjustments between Trust

Working Account and Loan Ar:count of the Agricultural Bank Transfer to Trust Hunds on account of the follo\Ying­

Chillagoe State Dmeltcrs Fund .. ~ioun£ ~iulligan State Coal Mine :Fund

tll9,li:l

~~~:m

:2,811,967 13,900,,l3~

2~0,000 1,600,000

3,-!51

1,97 2

Otatc Entcrprhics I•'und - --------·---- 907 ,i>O~

PorUon of rcpayinr-uts rccciYcd during th.,. yt·a.r transferred to Consoli-dated Revenue and applied towards t,[p payment of tlinking; Fund contributions in terms nf" 'I'he Comn-wnu.'alth and States Financial

1349

£ 4,691,051

17,243,868

2l,\J34,919

Agreement Ratification Act of 19~7" 100,000 --~--- 19,67i>,226

Credit balance at current ac--:ou nt at 30th June, 1930 £2,259,693

Tlw l,rtbncl' to thl' credit of the cunent . vccnn,t of the Loan Fund on 1st ,July, 1929,

,., £4.691.052. Sums received during the Y(•ar froru ""hl' Yariou~ sources amounted in tLL' aggregate to £17,243.863. the principal ltc•IH~ lwin:r repayn1f'nts b~~ local authorities~ <·tc.. £1.4 ';1,620. Jll'Oc<•<·ds of domestic and IYPr-thL·-conntef i,:;;~ups £53[,756, loan fron1

( 'ontllJ<)!lWP-llth SaYing:- Bank under the pro­,·i::-iun~ of tlw SaYing~ Bank rrransfor

£.1.014.000: proceeds of loans Connuonwealth GoYernn1ent

for conY('r.,,iou of d<1 benturcs and stock .£13,409.372. and repa~·ment of £750,000, pr::,·­l io11 of arnouut nn tetnporar~.- loan to that. ( :u\·c·l'JJlil~>f,t.

'j'}p (''".[H !Hlij ·Irc' on \vork., and other scr­''''"' totallt•d £2 811.967. which was £543 540 ] •. ...,. 1lt~1Il th0 arnount 3-ppropriated ~nd :£:436.460, Jc.s.s tlun that of the previous vcar. Tht· ruin it ern~ of expenditure wore ~con1-f;l'i~f·d of raihvays £757,368, adYances for '·\ orkL·r~· thYelling:-:: and \VOrket~~' homn~ £559.971. loans to local authorities and J,upitol £371,858, ad,·anc"" to borrowers

Ly the Agricultural Bank £240,204, a.nd :\iain Hoads Commission £356,967. Expendi­turo in praetieally every appropriation was curtailed. onlv work' of the utmost urgency and itnportan~co being undertaken.

The other disbursements from Loan Fund duriiJ[; the year amounted to £16,863,259, tlw principal items being debentures and ir ·cribed stock converted £13,950,334, rcdcmp· tion of rhe deposic receipt held by the Commonwealth Saving-~ Bank £240,000, tern· porarv loans advanced to the Commonwealth Cove;nment £1,600,000, del>it balances of ( _ l'h-tin State f'ntcrprisc~ transferred frorn Trust Funds £967.502.

The tocal credit baianc,, of the Loan Fund on 30th Juuc. 1930. was £3,493.927, disposOO.

follows:-

Crcclit balanre at eurrent af'eount On extended deposit .. On temporary loan to Commom.vcalth

Government

2,2fi9,69:l 13'l,234

1,100,000.

£3,493,927

J!on. W. I!. Ba,rncs.]

]35(1 Financial Stalcment. [ASSEMBLY.] Pinancial Statement.

:\I 'cTCRl"G LOA"S.

Sto<:k amountmg to £3,781,700 matured in London on the 1st JulY, 1930. This stock ; u.rricd interest at the rate of 3~ per cent.

mmum, and £3,682,400 was issued under provi~ions of " The Government Loan of 1890, ' and £99,300 under '' The

,~gricultnral LanJs Purchase Ads, 1894 to HOl." The loan for the first-mentioned ~nnou11t wa:-; raised dnring the years 1891 ;.rJd 1893 for public works, and the latter ;. rnonnt reprC'sPnted debentures issued in tho · ''" r 1902 for the purchase of Mount RuS3ell }>:.tatc. which were subsequently converted nJto i!lscribcd stock.

1\e,;'otiations for the i:-'~ue of a loan to LJ('et the maturing siock v,·crc initiatt1 J b:v lhe Loan Council in April, 1930. It was

first proposed to float a Commonwealth but after a great eked of correspond·

(u<'P. b~- cablegrarn, with the financial lch-iserg in London, tht' Loan Council decided that the wisest course would be to issuP the loan in the name of Queensland. The status c~f Australian ~tocks on the London market at. the timP did Hot indicate that ('Yen a e01wcrsiou loan would meet with a good rccpptiou. aud taking all the circumstances ·into consideration it wa, thought that the prospects of s.uecPSS were in favour of a Queensland i~suf'. Finally. arrangement~ 'n'rc completed for a Qu('ensland loan bear­mg interest at the rate of 5~ per cent. per annum. and being repayable on the 1st July, 1936, tlw Govcrnnwnt having- the optiou of redemption at par, in whole or in part, on or after 1st July, 1934. on giving three months' notice. The price of issue was £97 per cent., and holders of the maturing stock who converted into the new loan received a cash paympnt of £3 per cent.

The rate of interest was not agreed to without considerable protest, but efforts to

Gross public debt at 30th June, 1929 Add-

Loans raised . . . . . . . . Advances from Conunonwealth under-

obtain a reduction were unaYailing. I-Iavi11g in view the low price at v. hich Australian ~rocks were quoted in London at the time. and the prices to which those stocks ha vo subsequently fallen, also what is, after all, a very important factor-that is. the terms which underwriters are prepared to offer­it must be admitted that the arrangement· for this fiotatio11 wc1·e n s fa 1·ourable <ts could he expected.

Cash applications amounting to £1.046.000 were received, and convcr~ioa applicati~n1s amounted to £1.692,000, the total bcmg £2,738,000, leaving· £1,043.700. PquiYaknt to 28 per cent., to be prondcd by the Lmder­wrlters. In tlw or1iuion of those in a po~i­tion to jud~CC', thi~ rc:-:ult 1~ con::;:;idPn'd dt1S­

factor0•. The increase in thn ratt of interc3t front

3~ to 5~ per cenl. will add £75.634 tu the annual charge on account of this portjon of the public debt.

With the cxceptwn of he loan of £3,731,700. our loans fallrng due this financial :vcar arc local issues,· anrl they an1ount 1 o the cornparati ve]y small sum of £381.400. including redemption of instalmc•IJt stock and £240.000 payabk lo the Commonwealth Savings Bank iu rcdui'l ion of the fixed deposit receipt held ·by that bank. £22.400. \\~hich was rcdef'mabk on the 1st Julv. 1930, was converted, and the J\'atiottal Debt C'om­mi•.oion has becll requested to meet the balance of these obligations from the Sink­ing Fund. I havf' not includPd in the fore· going a sum of £2,900,820 redeemable on the 31st January, 1936, which ihc Gm·ernment has the option of redeeming at an~· time on or after the 31st January, 1931.

PUBLIC DEBT,

The gross public debt wa~ reduced during the year by £713.070 as follows:-

£ £ 11 ~.862,049

South Brisbane-K:;ogle-Grafton Railway Art ~iigratinn Agreement !Adjustment of Advance i9~8· Hi29)

1,557,434

73,241\ 76

·------ 1,(i30,736

114,492,805 Less-

Redecme<l from cash . . . . . . . . , 240,000 Redeemed by Xational Debt Commission out of Sinking Fund . . . . 343,187 Debt cancellrd by Comnwnwealth, on account of transferred properties, in

terms of the l<'inancial AgremnPnt 1,500,639 ~,:34:3,826

(~ross puhlir debt at :30th .Tune, 19:30 (;ross public debt, :lOth .June, 1929

DcrTeasr

On<' of the factors contributing to the reduction of the debt during the year was the cancellation, in pursuance of th(' Finan­cial Agreement, of our liability to the Gom­monwcalt.h Government to the extent of £1,560,639, being the value of the trans­ferred properties. The cancelled debt carried interest at the rate of 5 per centum per annum, and the State's liabilitv cea>c,d on 1st July, 1929. ·

As r;gainst the gross public debt of £112,148.979, tlw a~cumula Led sinking fund, on the 30th June !J.st umounted to £815.004. of which £813,661 was held on account of the two American loans, and £1,343 was

[Hon. W. H. Barnrs.

SI U.148,979 £112,/l(j2,0t9

±:71:3,070

uninv<'sted c1sh held by the ~arional Debt Comn1ission.

\Vc did not participate in the pwoeeds of an,y public loan i8',Uf'd by the Cornmornvcalth for the purpose of rni~lng- rnoney for oxpcll­diturc on l"rorks.

The only other public i"uc by the Corn· nlonwPalth during th(' year in which we participated "·as for tlw ,·onversion of the ""m of £10.637.360, bearing- interc•st at 6 per cent .per annum. which matur<'d on 15th March, 1930. Queenslalld's proportion of tlw loan as £1.008,710, of ,,-hich £140.010 was ,·cdeemt•d b.v the National Debt Com­mission out of sinking funds, and the balance,

Financial State m< nt. L~ Oc;roBEIL] Financial Statement. 1351

£868.700, was conYertPd into a new loan bear­ino· lntPrest at the rate of 6 per C'Ollt. per an"num, aml redeemable on 15th :Ylarch. 1937. Holders of Queensland Gm·ernmcnt dcbL•n­tnres amounting to £633.200. whichm<et.u;·ct! on the 1st J\1arch, 1930, were gtYen th.<• option of convertiug their holdings into tins ( ~ornmonwealth issue. and dcbC'nture& to rlw amount of £504,300 were convertc•d, till' balance, £128.900, being· rPdeemed by 1 he ="ational Debt Commis,ion.

£1 014 000 "dS recciYecl from the Common­\Yt•al;h Savings Bauk during tlH• Y<'fll'. in tPriH:-3 of the Saving,-.; Bank Trall~fer AgTPf'

HH'lli. This stock carrie~ intl'l't'~t at thl' ratl' df 5 per cpnt. per ar.1num.

£541,220 yyas rPceived by way of invPst­ntPllts in ovcr-the-eountel' and donH'""ttc i•'U<'S of which £350.000 was 't!hscrilwd by 1 hP I{l;;;ul·ance Cornmission0r.

The expenditure of £73,246 ou tho Kyogle railwa v account~ fo~· part of tbe fl('W dr>ht inenrr(~cl.

Sc-curitic s to the Yalm• of £543.187 were purchased h! the :\ational Debt Connnission :tnd cancellc•d.

A- I have ah·cad: stated, £240,000 wa' paid off the depo,it rPccipt held b>' the Common­vn?alt.h Savings Bank, this payrncnt lH'ing mPt. from cash jn the Loan Fund.

EXPF.XDITt:HE oF LoAx Fnms. .'vieetings of the Loan Council were lll'ld

on the 6th August, 11th ;'\jon•mbPr. and 9th December, 1929, and on the· 7th February. l~th February, and lOth June. 1930. The princ-ipal subject of discussion at all these medings was, needless to state. tlw nnpos­sibility of obtaining sufficient nPw loan money to enable the Commonwealth and the States to continue their works programmes. Tlu• London market has been closed to Australia since January, 1929, and it would Ita Ye bPen quit<' futile to attempt to raise money in Australia to the same extent as we have bePll borrowing in London dm·ing the last ten years. The Loan Council was, consequPntly, compelled to reduce loan expenditm·e. The ]oan prograrnmc for last year, which \va~ decided upon at the meeting held in May. 1929, and which was a considerable reduc-­tion on the 1928-1929 expenditurc-. was still hll'ther reduced at the mf'cting held in August, 1929. At the meeting of the 7th February, 1930. further drastic reductions were ag-reed upon. bringing the total do\\ n to approximatelv half the average expendi­ture of rPecnt \·cars. on the und('rstanding· that a further ;.f'Cluction would haY<' \o l•r• nlade in thP t'YPnt, of jt;;:. bcillg found imrlossiblc to raise the amount.

'l'h<' Queccsland Governmf'nt has been ad (~rscly <'l~itici~f'd for ('Urtailing loan expen­diture. Although I admit KC had funds in hand sufficient io C'nablc n~ to spt'JH-l at a gr0ater rat0 than we did last ,v<'ar, and arc still doing, those cri! ics who a re prepared to give the snbjPct fair a.nd unbia~sPd con~idcra-1 ion mn:'t admit that Qur{!n~land is bound to abide bv the r0solutions of the Lo.n1 rouncil. 1 f is not trup to ~a v that tLn Loan Couneil f'xerc1sf'S no contrOl OY('r ·u: Rurp1ur. funds a State 1nav 'have in }wnd. The Financial ,\gt'<'Pl1lcnt clistindly provide, that any mor!C'vs oht.•.ined lv: a Stat0 in exce of ih 'rcquire.mf'nt.s for one rear shall bo deemed to be moneYe rPeeived hv the State on aceount of the following :vea;.. I assert unlw,itatingly, therdore, that although we

ha(l loan fund~ in hand in exces~ of our rcquiren1cnts fo1· la:-;t ,:·car, we could not haYLl l'X pendPd tho~c funds without co1nmitting a hrcach of tlH' Financial .:\greernPnt. Apan; ham this phasp of the subject I maintam that it would be sheer follv to launch ·J·.lt nn an Pxpancling programn1~ of loan cxp'2n­(liiiirP just IlO\Y. ]i.,cw people ~ecn1 to rpali.'iH

thP ('Xtrenw graYliy of the situation, ar!d thP impo~~ibility of obtaining loan fund.-: (•\sl'\'\·hcre than fron1 our O\Yn internal 1'1'--oun·P~. The Queensland (;oyernnwnt has (lPcided. YPr_\- wisely I Jnaintain, to cons·-~rn::: 011r aYaihdJie funds, in order to permit of .a IJ'odera1P rate of pxpcndlturc for the longC'st pos,ihk periocl. The wisdom of this policy ('<Uinot IH' questioned. and n1cnlln-:rs of tho Jll'l'\·iou~ UoYernn1cnt, \vho take exception to tl11~ pre.s('nt UoYernn1ent's action in this rt•.spevt. might be reminded that their own PrPrnier and Treasurer, in his Budget Speech del i n'r<'cl on the 25th October, 1927, stated tlwt be wa:-. con,·inccd that tho~e who knew 1 lw t ru<> position of affaies would agree , .• 1d1 him \\'lwn he 'aid that, if the Austraii:m States did not Yoluntaril~· adopt a policy uf rl'~triding loan expenditure, it would bL~ forer•d upon them in the near future.

).lr. Knn.~.r.\K: He vras a Yoice crying 1n thP wilderneso.

Tlw TREASL)RER: It is perfectly certain thai loan expcnditurP will haYe to be more and more restricted .

I.,Jueensland has not participated :n thu JHOc~Pth of a public loan flotation ~inc·t) .January. 1929. I do not, of course, includ•' t hr· Londou conversions in J ulv, 1929. a"cl .July. 1930. which did not provide arry ne"· ""L exr·ept for redemption purposes. \Vhcn en• pre~cnt. resources arc exhausted w0 will line! ourselves in the unenviable positio,, or the other States. unless in the rnuantim: there is a material improvement in the finan­t·>al prospects. 'Phere can be no denying thai, " verv considerable curtailment must be made in th~e co;:travagant rato of loan expenditurn of reC'ent years. T'his is be,ing- forced on Anstrali;c bv the refusal of the over.oens market to ,:ontinue to lend us money. So far as QueL•nsland is concerned. it appea." to n1e that our expenditure in future rnust hP re,tricted to the amount of the repot_"·nnnts tn the Loan Fund. and any new money we mnv be able to obtain under the Sa.vmg.e Bailk .\g-reement. and to raise by what arc known ih dornpstic issues~that is, inve.;;...__ nH'nt~ of the Insurance Comn1iRsiont>r· s rr '<'rves, Public Curator's Fund. etc.

lt has been c!Pcidecl bv tho Loan Council 1 hat tht• loan PXpPnditu~e of the Common­WL'alth and the Stat0s during the current """ r .shall hP rps\.rictecl to the sum of £15.000.000. \YhPn it is remembered that the aYt'ragf' PXpcndltun' for the ten years ended ~Ot h .J un". 1929, amounted to about £40.000.000, ii will surely bo admitted that the p-ravjt:v of the Rituation cannot· be over­'tatud. This reduction, large though it may b·•, is ilnpcrahYP. rrlw fflf't is that it is not practicable to rai::-e thr rnoney, ·and it rPm aiL, to b0 seen v;;hrthPr Pvcn the com­pa;atin•lv <·mall mm of £15.000,000 can be obtained.· It will haYP to he raised in .-\ustra1ia. nnd the- n -~onrcrs of local inves­tors will be strain0cl by the extremely large (~onunonwr;alth apd State mal'uritiPs to be ml't this vrar. FnrthermorP. it must not bP <>Ycrlookp(] that the < ffect of loan' raised 1oc.alh- is not the samp as in the case of new mouoy introduced from abroad. VVe have

Hon. W. H. Bw·nes.]

1352 [ASSE:\fBL Y.] P'inanc·ial Statement.

boP;1 livi11g- to such an extent on n1onev borrowed OYer::coas, that disastrous n:"~sult~s must t•nsuo when the cupply fails.

The sum of £1.fi88,00J, .,·hich has been a11otted for cxpL·nditure by Queensland this :y0ar, includes repayniCut to the Loan Fund

to amount ro £1.000,000. It should necc;sar;~· to participate in the pro·

cl..'eds of u public lc.1n flotation, a3 n1oney in kmd. togcth~r with repayments which I :nti .. ipato wili be made to the Loan Fund ..:-\ccou11t, f:'honlrl bP suf-Iiclt•llt"· to meet require­ment uni il th,• 30th J un" next.

r4 p.rn.]

Tr~;}IPO:r: \!iY I~o.n;:-:; TO THE Uo::-.uroN\VEAL'rn Go v~RNo1E='i1'.

~\ g-reat of advf~l':-:t• crlticis.tn has been i1·curr<•d by ('ovC'nmwnt for lending sur-plus cash to the Commonwealth Government. and it has bt~en stated thnt this c>ash should hr1YP be1Jll expf' 1ld!.!d on additior1J.1 loan "vorks.

1 han• already <'xplained that the amount 1vhich ma;· he ('"'\:fH'rl<led frorn Loan Funds is rk•t('rrninPd in :lCCDrdanc(' with the provisions of the Financial AgTPmnont. .\part' from that aspPct of thP ease. l would state that it is the Government's fixed intention to con· :,('tve .a\ ailablP funds. 1t eannot be denied rhat the futnrc prospect•; of obtaining new loan money are extremely doubtful, and for thB l'{ a~on alone the utn1o;;t care rnust be exercised a~ regards thP rnann0r in \'vhich eash in hand is expended. Another and bv far the most important aspect is the fact that we cannot afford to continue to add to our p~1blic debt. The interf'st on the existing debt w a tremendous burden, and we will not be <'apabl(' of 1neeting any additional int<'rP .. t liability until the• whoh•.of Australia is in a rnt1Ch rnore prosp0rous condition.

A:-> regards te1nporars loa.ns to the Corn­rnnrnynalth._ ! _"'.vould sa~ that no new policy hns bC'Pn nntrat0d hy th~~ present GoYurn­TH•'nt. Tentporar~v loan;; vvPre advanced io \-ictoria and South ~-\.u~tralia as far back as thf' vear 1913. rrhe pr.aetice of lending t'o ~he Commo~nvealth Gon,rnnH'':t was adopted 1n 1926. '\\hen J a"um&d ofhce the sum of £250.000 was on loa" to 1 hat Government ou account of South Au"tralia. This loan was due for repayment on tlw 31st lVIav 1930. but: the date of rcpaynwnt has bcei1 0Xtend1•d from _time to tinw to 5th J anuar)·. 1931. In add1bon. a further >mm of £500.000 was advanc:Pd on account of South Australia on the 19th .July. 1929 .. thP original date of repayment hping 31st Df'cemher, 1929. various PxtPn.•non.s io 5th .Jann:,ry, 1931. haYing Rin<'(' lw('n g-ra11t0d. ,

On thr' 17th Oetolwr. 1929, £250.000 was nd_vaneed on account of '"Virtoria, extensions hPmg grantc•d to 31st :\fa rch and 31st October 1930. .

£250,000 was advancl'd on 11th December 1929. and £500.000 on 18th December. 1929: on account of New South \'\ales. Both the'!• advances w<•re repaid on the 30th April 1930. '

£100,000 ''""' advanec•l Oil tlw 20th Mav. 1930, on a6JOUnt of vVP>tern Australia whi,;h was repaid on the 11th .Julv, 1930. ·

The outstanding advancps. an• £250.000 "" account of Y ictoria, rep a' ab le on 31st Octo· ber. 1930, and £750,000 on account of South A nstralia. repayable on the 5th J anuarv 1931. ..

T ought to explain that thcsp amounts h"ve been loaned to the Commonwealth. and not to those States.

[Hon. ·w. H. Barnes.

Prior to Decem bcr, 1929, these tNnporary loans earned intPre3t at the rate of 4~ per cent. per annum, but si11ce then tho rate has been increased to 5~ per cent. As tho nornina1 cost of new rnoney raised by the State during the last three years has not exceeded 5~ per cent., lending this money at 54 per cont. is a profitable investment.

I rnay add that it \Vas arranged during .J uno of this year to allow the Commonwealth Government to havo the use of our surplus cash in London. at cail. It had been the practice for very many ye.rs to lend this rnoney to tho 111arket for varying short perioJs, at the ruling IT11l'kot ratLs for accommodation of this nature. The Com­!llUllWCalth Governrnont 'vill pay Bank of England rate plus ~ per cont. Tho rnonoy i3 at pre..;;ent earning 3~ per cent. per annum, wllich js bf'tLr than we received for loans to the market, as the rate for those loans flnrtuates from day to day, and fell as low as 2 pE'r cc11t. in J. UllC'.

On:nSEAS Ex rH \NGE.

lt is well known that it has become (•XtrP!llC]v uifJieult to remit funds from Australi,;: to London. The tremendous falling-off in the volume and value of Aus· tralia's exports ckpleted our trade balance overseas to such an extent that the Com­monwealth Government and the banks were compelled to take special action to moot tlw situation. Although Queensland had local funds a; ailablo to meet our interest commit· nwuts in London and New York, wo \Verc finding it increasingly difficult to arrange for their tram·•fer. However. a schen1e \vhich canw into operation on the lst September has lwPn agreed to between the Loan Coun· t·il anrl tlw banks, whPrcby the latt.-·r agree 10 mobili"' their Pxchange resources and makP aYailable sufficient London funds to meet national liabilitiPs in rC'JWCt of interest a.nd limitf'd sen·ic0s. The Governments will. of course. have to provide the necessary funds in Australia, and pay current rates of Pxchangl' on telegraphic transfer basis, less one-eighth of 1 per cent. This will prove a cost.!)' method of remitting, but. in the <'ircumstances, the security afforded by the sclwmp out\n,ighs the cost to some extent. 1 n past years the proceeds of loans raised in London were utilised to meet interest commitments. and the actual transfer of funds was thus obviated. and the cost of <'X<'hange was a negligible item in con~e­(jlWncc. \Vhile the present scheme is in OlH'ration. our annual charp:e- for this servict~ will he in the yicinity of £200,000.

SO!.DrER SETTLEMENT LJABILITY.

Last vcar I stated that the proposal made to the States bv the Commonwealth Govern­mPnt. as the O~ltcomc of Mr. Justice Pike's report on soldier settlement. was disappoint. ing. Thi.s opinion was shared by other States. The matter formed the subject of corrf'spondencP \Yith the Commonwealth Go­Yernment until Jnne of this vear. when. at :t mPding of the Loan C:oundl held in Can· ben·a during that month. the whole matter was discussed with the Prime Minister. an<! a final settlement \Yas agreed upon; th<' tf'rtll~ of which arc .as follo,v:;:::-

1. That the basis suggested by Mr .. ,Justice Pike-viz., that the Common· wealth and States share equally in the losces-be accepted, and that to giv0 pffeet to this decision the Commonwealth assume responsibility as at 30th June,

Financial Statement. r2 OCTOBER.] Financial Statement. 1353

1927, for a furth~r amount of £2,447,000 of the soldim· settl~mont loans owing by the States.

2. That a ~ondition of such acceptance be the "Ltisfactory completion of the ·' •ttlement of the soldier settlrrs now on the land, particularly in rt opect to the provif;1on of homo nlaintonance areas.

3. That. in order to coYcr lossPs to be incurHx1 in providing hoti.lO maintenance area~. the further lo· on that account be bkcn as £300.000. and that £150.000 be a-dded to the Commonwealth's share of the loss, makiw,, say, £2.600.000: the r0maining £150.000 to be allocated to the States affected on the basis of the number of soldier settlers now on the land. This dause applies to Kew South \Va)os (outside irrigatiO;l areas), Vic­tona, Que:nsland, and Tasmania.

Decided obj action was taken to the pro· posal made by the Commonwealth in August, 1929, to charge the States, after 31st Decem­ber, 1930, with half the liability in excees of 5 per cPnt. per annum for interest payable on the Commonwealth loans from which the monov due bY the States to the Common­wealth for soidier settlem0nt was provided. The Prime Minister agreed that the original arrangement made in October, 1925, should stand-that is, that the States will pav to the Commonwealth after 31st D0cember, i930. a flat rate of 5 per cont. per annum on tlw loans for which the States arc then liable to the Commonwealth.

Under the rearrangement Queensland'g liability to the Commom.-ealth Gov01·nment has been reduced hy £137.233 to £2,088,350 as from the 1st July, 1927. The annual inter0st saving on the reduction amount., to £8,630. An adjustment has bctm made bv the Commonwealth as regards the interest for the year 1929-1930, but no action ha,; yet been bken with re>pect to the years 1927-1928 Rnd 1928-1929, advice having been received from the Commonwealth Treasun last March that the adjustment for thes0 years would be considered later.

Th0 reduction in the liabilitv to tlw Corn· monwealth has not Yet b''<'n ,;·ritten off our public debt. Appar.<'ntlv it is the intention of the Commomw .11th Government to com· plcte the matter when the tUTaniTement has bc0!1 f'n:.hodi~d in a formal agr~~n1ent and ratified by the FcdDral and State Parlia· 111e11t~.

Sati,fadion can Le felt that this very long out~tandiJJf! controYersy ha::: at last hcf'n settlPd. But it cannot ])(' overlooked that. in vit'W of the fact that wldier r('patriation i> JWculiarlc· a Commonwealth liahlity, tlw States w0r0 justified in cxpcctinv to rerPiYP :more lih0ral trc~atn10nt than that accorded bv !he Commonwealth.

FEDEit,\L GRA:\1"'1' POR RELIEF OF lT~E~IPLOYl\lEXT.

At the Loccn Council meeting held in Can­lwrra on the lOth June, the Connnornvealtl, 'frr.ctsnrcr announced that the Commonwealth Gov<"rtlnlPnt ',\as prPparerl to Jntd;;:c' a grant of £1.000.000 to th0 State,; tcH' ards the relief of disiTE:'S arl ,inp; frorn unen1plovtncnt anrl that it wa'' inlcnrled to dio;trilmtc 'the a1;10unt on a population basis. In view, howPvcr. of the fact that unemplo:nrwnt was so much more acute in South Australia than in the other States, it was mutuRlly agreed that that State 'hould receive more than its share -on a population basis.

'l'hc sum of £130,000 was apportioned to Queensland. Ko conditions as to the manner in "hi eh the money was to he expended were imposed at !,he time, and the Commom. caith Troaou·rer stated that the Federal Govern­ment did not propose to interfere as regards tiH' expenditure of the grant.

\.dvi<:o subsequently received from the Prime on thQ 5th ,Tuly that it wa,s propo ed that the, grant should be disbursed b:· tho State Guvernrucnts solely as an aug­tncntation of CXlknditurc which would o·rdi~ m1!'ily hJ.-o bN•n incurred by them, and that the v;orks undcnn.kt n as a r-t'suJt of the grant >.:ould be additional to tho ·e <rhich would, apart from tile have been carried out. ~rhn Prin1P aho asked to be fur-ui,;hed \Yith-

(a) '!'he pc.rtieular works which it is propo.:-:cd v-ould Le~ und :rlakL n ;

(b) Tho C·timatcd cost of such works; ic) The lor olity and nature of each of

rho undertaking-~: (d) Tlw cstimatccl amounts which, m

rt'spect of r~ach undertaking, v.-ould be inyo]vcd-

(i.) In payment of salaries and wager-:.. and

(ii.) In mcet:ng other charge.< (material, etc.);

The numb<'!' of unemployed which it est.imatPd would benefit from the proposal;

(!) Any other feature which would be of intcre,,t to the Commonwealth.

The Prime }linister also added that his GoH'rnment as ·Umed that all labour engaged as a result of tlw grant would be employed under eonditions determined in accordance ·with the terms of industrial ft\Yards applying to the same class of la hour in the particular clist rich; concerned.

lt was pointt•d out to the Prime Minister that a sPrious difficulty might be created by tho condition that men engaged on relief war ks undPr the grant were to be paid a ward rates, and he was adYised that ;n :-:t:'YI).ral of the GoYPrnment departn1cnts, par· ticularly the railway.;, owing to slackneso and the desi·re nut to dismiss any of the ~urplus ('lllplo:yec.s, a system of pooling work had he'll instituted, with the result that per· mancnt employees affected by this system Vd.'re receivin~; cousldera,b1y less than the basir ·wag-e; furthPrrriorc, if men engaged on relief works were !,laid at least the basic 'i\ago it would hl' manifestly unfair to the perma­nent ernployecs who receive less.

'.rl"· matter was hrought up for discussion at the Loan C-luncil meeting on the 5th Aug-u~t. when the Prirne i\'Iinlster, who \vas then the chairman. asked tho States to agree to a rPdurtion o£ the grant. and also to a rednction of the FNleral aid roads gro.nt, in order that the Federal Gov<'rnment might divert the moncv to assist the South Aus­tralian GovC"rnm.cnt. to balance its revenue BF.dgct for tlw current year. A definite deci· 'ion WfP< not arrived at until the ConfcroncB of Premiers i.~ Aug1Yt, -when it was agreed that Queensland wou,d relinqnish the whole of 1 he sum of £130,000 \ hi eh wo w<>rf' to have received undPr the original propo:;zJ. It 'vas conRiderc'd advi8able to do this in prefProneo to agreeing to an abrogation of the Fi'dC'ral aid •roads agr·cernent by waiving cur ri£;ht to portion of tlw grant under that agrecrnent. rrht: ~UD1~ \Vhich the Prirne

Hon. TV. H. Barn."s.]

1354 Financial Statement. [ASSK\IBLY.] Financial Statement.

Minister desired to withhold from that gnwt and the unmnployrnent xclicf grant an1ounted in the aggregate to approximately the sum to be rocoh·ed from the latter grant.

BA:-.:KING AGREEMENTS.

Clause 8 of the agreement of the 1st April, 1920, between the Government and the Com­monwealth Bank of ~\ustr"lia rcado as follows:-

" T·ransfers to and fro1n London on Lehal£ of the Government shall be effected ln· the· bank at the best rates available i 1:orn tin1o to time, but not in any ra'", ~ exceeding five shillings (5s.) per centum below the L uk', CHrrent rate of the dav to the public." ·

l interpreted this elause as committing the bank to transf0r funds as and when required by the Gowm1rnont. The govcrnor of the bank advi,ed me that this interprcta­' ion, if eorrect, would place upon the bank an obligation >Yhich it might conceivably be impossible to fulJil, and that under the cir­<·umstanccs his board thought it desirable that 1 hey should gi,-c notice of the tormination of the agreC'ment..

On the 1st ApriL 1930, the Governor of tht bank gaYe me formal notification that the b.mk desired to terminate the agreement. upon the expiration of twelve months from that date. The Governor stated, however, that it was not the bank's desire to termi­nate friendly relations, and that they were willing and anxious to continue the existing arrangements with thP Go,-ernment in all except the question o[ transfers to places outside Australia

I had several interviews with the Governor. when passing through Sydney to attend meet­ings of the Loan Council, and pointed out to him that becB.use th<, -bank might not be in a position w fu!f;[ the provisions of one clause only it wn •1 most undesirable that the whole agrecwoO>nt should be terminated. I, thereforP, su.;·gested that he should submit an amendPd clausP to be substituted for the clause in question. I received a letter from him on i.he lOth August, stating that the bank would wii'hdraw its letter giving notice of the wrntine.Lion of the agreement, subject to the Government approving that the clause in quesLor, hc amended to read as follows:-

" Transfers to and from London on behalf of the Government shall be effected llv the bank at the bank·s clis­c.retion hfnnng regard to its reSOlHCf'R

and commitments, at the best rates avail­able from time to time.''

decided to accept the amendment sub­mitted by the imnk. and tho. Governor was advised to that effoct on the 29th August. A formal n::recment embodying the amend­ment has been prepared and submitted to the bank for signature.

The scheme for the mobilisation of over­seas exchange, which has boen agr 'ed to between the Loan C\Jm,cil and the banb, v.~ill as.s.if't the C01nn1onwen lt.h Bank as regards the transfer of funds for the Queens­land Governn1ent.

The Bank of England advised the AgPnt­Gencral on the 13th ~1ay, 1930. that. as tlw r<'cult of the inaugurat.ion in J u 1~·. 1929, of the new systc•m for the co-ordination of Australian borrowings, it. \Vas underst0od that the . agreement concluded between the

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

bank and the Government in :}1areh. 1915. had automatically lapsed. The corrcspond­{'llCe is C'ontaincd in an appendix to the forty-sixth report on the creation, inscrip­tion, and issue of stock, which has bcPn ]aid on the table.

The new system for the co-ordination of Australian borrowings mentioned by the bank is that provided for in the Financial _.Agreement. lJnder that agreemt-~nt no StatP may issue a loan overseas without the unanimous consent of the mcmuers of the Loan Council. It will be rcmemborod that th<· Queensland loan of £12,703,734, which matured on the 1st July, 1929, was <'on­Yerted into Conunornvea.lth stock, and it VV<J'­

anticipatcd that all future Australian Sta t<' loans would be similarly dealt with, and that only under very exceptional eircum­E>htnces \vould loans bo i~sued oversea8 b:y a State. It was certainly not contemplated that a loan would be issued by Queensland as soon as April, 1930. I have already detailed the circumstances relating to thi' loan.

It is assumed that the Bank of England will continue to pay interest and to perform other services with respect to Queensland stock still inscribed in the bank's registers. The Agent-General has been requested to have this matter settled.

I might mention that the transfer to thP Commonwealth Bank of the loans which matured. in London, on the 1st July, 1929. and 1st July, 1930, respectively. should resulr in a reduction jn the annual rr1 anagen1ent charges of those loans, as, under the a -range­ment between that bank and the Common­wealth Government. those charges are not calculated on a fixed commission per million. as in the case of the Bank of England but on the basi~ of actual cost. The Com­monwealth Bank has agreed that the last conversion loan, although issued in the nam<" of Queensland, shall be regarded as a Com­monwealth loan for the purposes of this charge.

SuGAR.

As the sugar industry is such an important factor in Australia's industrial welfare, I consider it worthy of mention.

The quantity of 1929 season's raw sugar purchased during the year was 522,548 tons (actual weight). of which 197,074 ton' of bagged sugar were exported. The proportion of the Qu<~ensland output requir()d for usP in Australia was 61.605 per cent., the exports amounting to 38.395 per cent. of th<' production in terms of 94 net titre. Owing t.o a fall in the world's value of sugar, t.he price paid for the exported sugar wa' the lo"T .,.t vet dcdar!'d-namelv. £9 17s. per ton 94 net· titre. The average pric·e for the Qnccnsland output was £20 5,_ lOd. pm ton 94 net titre, a decrease of 12s. ld. per ton on the return for the previous season.

The absence of industrial trouble' enabled the shipowners responsible for the carriag<• of raw sugar, both to ~\ustralian refineries and overseas. to derive the full benefit of the arrangemento made by them for the ''xpeditiou' removal of the sugar throughout i he SF ason: the result was that the mills did not find jt ncc~~~ary to resort to ~toring, l'Xcept to a very limited c•xt.cnt., and the ports were clcn.rcd of sugar much sooner after the termination of crushing than usual.

The new refinery established at Cott<>sloe, Western Australia, by the Colonial Sugar

Financial StatnnCJ t. l:.' 0CTOBEH.j Finrmcird Statement. l35fi

Refini11g C'on1pany, Lin1itcd. (·onuueneed operations during the year. So far as sup­plies of refined sugar arc couccrnrd, t hi~ refinery should place the consumers in that State in a n1orc s.ecnre position than thr OCCl1picd in the past o"-ing to dislocations in sea transport.

The charges for the freighting, n :lniug. and distributing the season's production were the same as those \Yhich applied to 1l1e previous season.

It is interesting to note thar the a!llOllllt JHtid last year as rebate to mrrnufacturers of frui~ prorl.ucts for con~Ulll)H iou 111 ... Aus­tralia \\as £197.000. an iucrea<e of on•r £30,000 on the· similar rebate for the pre­nous year.

Including the :\'ew South \Yalc•s output. t hP production of ra.\Y ,;ugar for the 1930 t'"iL'ason is cst1rnaiccl, on Jn·p,,Pnt aclvicQ~. at 510,000 tons. of \Yhich apprn:imatel· 170,000 : ons -will require to he expor~Pd. (hYing- to the very lo•;; priC"f'"l ruling for .sugar ovc·rscas lL was docrned adYisablc. whe·11 i~:-~ning the proelamal ion acquiring the (~llf'L'll:-.land !'.Ugar production for the 1930 '"a"on. to rednCL' t h" base pric0 for the cxp8rtabiL· mq1lus to £7 14s. per ton 94 net titre.

One of tllC' members of a dPputation from the Sugar Federation of the British Empire, which waited upon the ChanC'c'11or of thP Exclwquc·r sorne n1onths ago. in dealing v\·ith the low prif'es nO\V }H'f'vailing for ~ugar. ;;tated that the w-e a !led world sugar market wa~ at present only a. '" rc~idual" market for the dumped surpluses of countries which subsidise thPir Pxport"" by nlPans of n.. coll­surnption tax on sugar con~un1ed by their cwn people.

FIKAKC!At~ POSITIOK.

presunw c·very member of this Com­mittee has carefully perused Sir Otto =xicmeyer's report to th<> conference of Pre­Jnier:3 and Treasurers, which ,at in :Wlcl­bourne from the 18th to the 21st August. The 1 <'port is lucid in the extreme, and n<leds JJO explanation by me. It coJJtains abun­dant matter for reflection, a.nd its contents cannot be too closely studied, not only by tnernbers of all the _._-\ustralian G-overnnlents, but al·o bY the \YhoiP commercial and i!ldu.,tria l community. It clearly sets out the C'au~es of our pn~s~C>nt fina,ncial ch_"pr(~ssion, and contains rnost cxrcll0nt aJy]cc" as regard~ the steps which should b!' taken to improve the JlOoition. Sir Otto Xiemevcr hae set nut the faf't:-:: in a rno~t imprt'~~ivP n1annf'J'. and is cqtw!h- imprcosin> in r!Paling- with t,lw nPc-cs~ar~T reinNlia.l 1110asure~.'--' Ili:-; PXtJO,;ition of the ca.<0 ldt no doubt in the 1ni'nch of th~' PrPmier:-. and 'l'rca~urers a . ...; to the dcmand for action. ThP JT"lolntions pa:-:<sed b\· the conferPncc· ar<' <'Onc]usivc C'Vi{lc-u 't-o i·hat effect. Thc>lr irnno:rtnlH'(' justifit'S tl1r>ir quotation. T1w: Lare a_:: foJlo\\ s:

1. '· That t lit• ~<'Y<'l'a l (;oYernnH·nb rPp~'<'~cntt'·d at this eonf1·rc'IJCC declare thPir flx<'d detf'rm i11ution to ba.ianc<~ their r< "''(•ctin• Budgets for tht' fln<-lncial Year 1930-31. and to- maintain a similar ha !an ,_·c•d BlHlg·pt in fnhll'P Years. This !1uJg-ct t4nilibri nn1 "-ill be· rnainLaincd on ~-lch n basi" a:) : . .: cou~i:·dt•nt \\-ith thn rcp<r'tnC'llt. or convPr::;ion in ~-\ustralia of <'xi· ing internal rlcht n1ntnring- in the n0x:t ft•\v .~ ~'ar~. JTu;-thPr, if during any fina11cial vrar there are indications of a. failurC' of revenue to n1cct expenditure~ . mmediatc steP"• will b~ ta.kcn during the

Year to !'llSUr<' that the Bnrlgct ehal! iw lance

2. "'That the Loan Council raise no further loans overseas until after exist­ing ov(~rseas short-t< nu indebtedness has been cornpietoly dealt with, this decision ro apply to -overseas borrowing by large publi< authorities. in controlling tho operati0n of which the State Treasurer (·once-.·nod will act in agrcerncnt with his colleague"' on the Loan- Council.

3. " That it ~s rl:'soh-cd bv thf' several Governnwllts. a~ regards , such publie­"":ork:-, as it may bo po~sible to finance by loans raised in thv int0rnal 1narket. i l1at approYal will not be giYen to tho l!ndcrtakinr.; of anY l1C\V works which dl'C not rPproductiYC in the sense of yielding to thr~ Tr0a.-mry t:oncerned withiu t reasonable period a 1·evenue at !Past equal to the SNYice of tlw debt (intf~rPst and sinking fund).

.f. ·'That in order to secure the rcgula1· .-:.crvict~ of the pnbllc debt fron1 revcnuP ,;tpps will he taken to provide that all interest payments sh>Jll bP made to a •J>ecial account in tlw Commomvea.lth Bank. to b(• U"Pd :'.Oll1 1y for the payn1ent of interest.

5. "That tlw Commonwealth and State Tr<>asurers will publish monthly in Aus­tralia m1d OH>rseas a brief summary on unifo-nn lines, sho\ving- their Budget reY<>nu<> and f'xpenditure, the position of their short-term debt. and the state of the Loan Account, such statement to be drawn up aft0r a uniform model to be agreed upon."

I might sav that the Prime ~Iinister of the Commom,:ealth. Mr. flcullin. was one of i hGse \vho endorsed and signed the neccss~r.v document, as did also Messrs. !logan and H1ll. thP Premiers of Victoria and South Aus­tralia, respeetindy.

To carry out the poliey embodied in these resolutions will be a most difficult under­t:cking. Only by the closest analys_is can their full import and all that they mvolve bt' realised. B:;· these resolutions, the several Uoyernrnents, in effec:t. undertake to revolu­iionise our whole system of natieilal financ_e. r:rhis is going to proYe a sttlpendou~ task In the present depressed condition of om· r<>,ources. It ic onr dntv. and will bo to ou1· benefit, to abide by. the underta.king, and every effort must be made ro that encl.

I shall later on dud fully with the first resolution, and with th0 ~tcps takPn and t" be taken to balance the Budget for th<' current year.

T'h0 ~econd n•.;;:olution reft'~'·"" to thr short­term Treac;urv hills float ell in Lond n. This ;, the sum of .£36.000.000 rcfPnPd to in Sir ( 'tto Kicn1C' ;pr'::.-: ~tatc'nlcnt a-.; pral'tica lly at ('all )n London. 1Tappi!y lYe '>H'l'C not un?Pr th(: lH'CP~~it." <Jf participating in thP ~otatlo.n o£ t.]H_'.SC bill:o;, so \VP arc conrPrnPd In thPlr

or cott\~ersion, only as the suere--:-s of the opNations will affect of Australia a-; a whole. It

h' noted that the decision embodied i1: tlri rL·~ 1lut-ion ay1plics to local au1horiti.cs, ,;;uch a-; the Brisbane Cit.v Council. whtch havu , dcptctl the prad,i('0 of borrowing

The tl1ird rpsolution impose·'· limits on the aYenues of expenditure of Loan Funds, by restricting such cxponcliture to reproductive works .

Hon. TV. JI. Barncs,]

13'51) Financial Statement. [ASSE::VIBLY.] F inanrial Statement.

The intention of the fourth resolution is to {·Y~:'.l1l'C dw pa:, rnw1t ?f interest f:orn r.evcnue, and the fifth r8solutwn has for rts object the di~scrnination, rnontb by month, of informa~ tion in <1 form which will enable intt'rested pnrtic; to 3.f :cr·tain whether the 1-ind~ct {'qnilibriurrl re>ferrcd to in the first resolutwn i·;0 Leing n1aint~.lned.

1 ,),all now rcfc'r again to the fust re,,oJn. tion

That the annual Budget should be balanced is a fniHlaincutJJ principle in goyernm·?nt .. .d flnance and it is not a matter for con~ ;;rultlla,tion that, haYint; ignored this prin· ci1d(' tht• tHt:".t, \Ye' are no'· eornrJl'lleJ to

it Ly a fonnal rc;-;olutiou.

The mere' balancing of the Budget will not. in' it~clf, soh'e _Au;;::tl'alia's presc11t dif!1 culti\'~. \Yt- cannot: aYoicl tht ohllg·at1cu.;. in1po:-:ed by a very large f'xtcrnal debt, anU

mn~t not ~hirk tho task of carnin~ ~uffi-inconle to pay the heavy annua11~~lbilit~'

for imon' t and ~inking fund on that debt. ThP ~ouree frorn whjch thi.., incon1c rr1ust b~' f'arrwd is the protit dPrivod fron1 Ll'aJir::~· with othPr countl'iP~. As IVO urc YJot in ~ position to sell manuhctured goods to ,,n,. appreciable extent, 'VP rnu~t rely (JD ihr ::'ale of our p1·imary products to earn suHl­cient profit to meet not onlv our debt liabili­tiP.', but also to pay for 'imports. If om· prc5cnt method" of conducting businc,, with thp 'Yorld do not leave the nece~sarv n1argin of proflt to meet these liabilities.' as wi'll a~ cosh of (~OVf'i'Tiill(~nt. and, in addition. what mig·ht be tNmed living expenses, tlw only course to follow is to rcorgani,e thosP methods. It can be taken for granted that the peopl<' from whom we hav0 borrowed wilt t<xpect us to honour our obligations to thcrn, and there can be no question that we ' ii I uot do ~o. antl that thcrP is no inclirwtion or {'\~f'n .a suggestion on our part to do othe1'­wrsc. f fer! "ll'C that no political party i<1 f.)ncensland will ever adYocatp the' repndid­tJon of our publie dPbt. and I am sah.f\cd that OUl" liabilities in thi~ ('Onnf'ction wi:l ahvays b(' nwt.

r4.30 p.m.l

. It must b,, admitted that the present situa.-1Ion dP1nanils a drastic reorganisation of dlll'

methods .. This can be accomplished only iJ;. l'O·operatJon between the several GoYern­rnents and C\rf r:v seetion of the coinmunih·. In ord(~r to balan('c budgPts. Govornnwnt~ will hayc to impose additional taxrrtion :w.i rnnkP C"fHlsidt~rablc rPductions in evcrv itr'lH d administrative expenditure. Then: is no rl.:nyin,tr that the imposition of atldiriona I tax.a.tion and a curtailment of goYf'rnnH'f'td! ~"CYY1ecs. con1ing togPther in a tin1c of ·1c·j-,rc . ..;­:'ion like the present, arc calculated to 'do a grPat dca,l of harm unless each nwmbcr of the cornn1unity i~ prepar0d to share in a rca,.onable distribution· of tho burden. The owner~ of capital invef3tcd in jndnstry, primary production. and other .aYPnncc of iEvestment will ha n· to be content with "''lTI<.lller profit~. un6J. \Vf~ l'f'~ain a IDOtO fH'O~­]JC rons conditlon, and the individual ,dto Parn:s his living front personal e-':crtion, irre­spective of his occupation, must be preparrd t0 accept }()s;.; for his service. This \Vill. no doubt. entail a cutti11g down of all fornB nf llllllCC('Sf!ary CXtW·nditUn\ whieh, although perhaps distasteful, should not prove very difficult.

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

Efl'o1·~ bv Govcrnnu~nts towards reha.bili­trt inP' ;-\ust;·a1ia in tlw world's rnurkets must prm·;, indiective unless supporter! by .the { rnrununitv as a whol~ Financial lDStltU­

t~io~:..~ pr.iYal0 enterprise, and individual of the comrnunin· 1nnsr. c2ch a .. cc,:~pt

of dw n'i'JlOlJo;ibiiitY. Cb< aper and l~c,1tt'I' ln.C't110cl,., of proJuction, tran.;port. nwrketing, Pte., lllllSL be C'Yoh-cd if our pl·inull·:· produce is to OYl:r:c·as. 1t. is obYious ouly- but

' price::; for our ru-ncdY is to diminish the cost

]ncrt'a"'e the. YOlunlC of produetion to a that -,·ill return u~ a fair Ulargiu of profit a~ 1 h~.~ 1.':0!.:Id'~ btt~-ing pricl'.

:tl factor in produc·tion i::J the c·o t of accnnnnoclation. There is no doubt

tlwt th·, IGonev raised n~cf'nt.ly Ly the Corn­lnon\\ .. l'ollth Uo:,Trnnlent for jts own purpc r:J, <:UHJ on hPIIalf of thn State:-;, i:-:. costing far 1-oo 111UC'h. rrhc COSt tO SPil1i-gon~r!lillClltat bodies, ~uch a~ city councils and ~.\ atcr .and ~ '\\'erage boa.rd~. ls blgher still, although

loan~ can·}-- GoYPrnnu~nt guarantee~. powtn·ful flnaucial institutjous, \Yh?H'}

coni ··ibu.t ion~ provitlP :;uch a largl~ proportJor; uf Ur' loans raised in Anstralia, Hhouln , urPly bt' prcprtred to do_ their part. in thL'

n'con::;truchon whiCh 1~ ~o p~sent1a.J. \ l·r, lw:n· ~) It n1ight not _he _con?idered llJJt"{'a:-<mtah)P t0 c~xpect the~c' lllt-itltut.Ions to rnuke a yo]untar.v niove in thi:: dir(ction by intl1nating- their wlllingnes:t to accept a. n·clucPd rah~ of intcre:'.t for futur0 loans Tili~ \\ ouid l"l'~nlt in an all-round reduct-ion. }..1cnev l'<Jnnot PXI1Cct to bf' innauiH' front the• cffed' of the change \\·hich must take plac1~ in Au:'tralia .. ~~: .. it i~ t~0 tnost powrr­fnl of the l'Olllmochtws. I thmk thos<' who i'XPl'l'l'3c' ~uch a large l1lf'1:1:3llH' {)f control OYPr

i· ~lHLtld lead tlw wav in rPdncing cost.,:;. :\o. ~C'hPrnr for re·..,torir{g- prosperit;· will be f'ffectlYt~ thar does not embrace eYcry factor. rraxation i~ a large itC'lll in the cost of pro­duction. Tf this burden is to he re!ie,;cd to an:.- apprt>ciablr- C'Xtf'nt. nll other charges on lJidu,.;;try must participate i11 a concerted dfort towards that end.

~\not'h('r .and a ypr,v important service \\'hich fmaucial inshtutinns rnight undertake in a lllUC'h g-r··a.trr 1nea:-:urc th1tn is done at pr<'SCJJt iR thP H'ttling- of people on the land. 1 Hear. be a,.') The co!Olplaint is often heard that there ;, p!Pnty of mo~<P:V for thc con· ~truction of nc•w bullding; in tlw c·itlPs. whilst mm'P'<" for land :-;L'ttlPinf'nt is well-nigh unob­tainaLlP. It cannot be denied that cxpendi­tur~' Dn ('ity: imprOYf'm0nb~ i.~ bcndici.a1 to a.. large <Jil.d iHJflOrt<:!nt ~Pdion of wage-oarr:ers1

but 'vh011 unemployment is such a serious p1oblf'lll a . ..; lt i~ at Present. any n1D11ey which ;, diYC<'tPd to tlw settlement of the land must tPnd to r li('VP dis1-rp:o::s cau~ed by unemploy­HH'lll, .and nntsi :-;qrf'l~· benefit thP indiYidual, b.v p1·o~:idi1~~· hi111 ,,;iL'h occupation. Land :-·•tt1(~lJH'n1 i . ..; l!Ot f'xcln:-:iYel}- a governn1C'Htal function. 'urd I think financial circles might we'll gjn• consideration to this n1attPr 'vith a. ,.;('''" to nlakiJJg· it an aYcnuc for thC' invest'­,·l;0nt of .a. lar/'~~r proportion of thl·ir available fund~. (1-I~::ar, lwar !j Cornplai11t:-; are 1nadc th~· .. t !Pndjll!:!.' instltniion-.: .an• not aRsi:.;ting in this direeti;'" as they Rhould. It may be duo :1) oL~rsi;.j11. J "·i:-h to draw their attention to it, and I tm't that they ma': find it pos­Niblr to a5sist to a grpater extPnt than they ha;·e bePn doiu;;. (Hear, hear!)

FiE:Jncial Statement.

ESTIMATES, 1930-1931. REVENUE.

The E~tirna tcs of r<:venue and expenditure for the current year haYe been prepared wit~ scrUpulous care. and no effort ha::; hccn sparezt to effect ~avi!~g,-; \YhPrC'VL'r possible. The dt'tPnninatioa of the Governruent to balance thn Budget ha:-<. juevitabl:,, result( cl in very ~ D\"Cl'U pruning in all dcpai·t'rnents.

The conbnucd decline in receipts makes i't irnpcrarln.! to curtail expenditure io a. degree nnprcc_-dC'ntC'd ln recent years. ./dtcr allow­in~; for the saving effected by the Salaries Act, it was f<nllld that there wac·. still a very large disr-rcpanry betwcPn probable receipts aud PXpC'nditurP. A further revision of ex­penditure wa•·•, therefore, unavoidable, and the appropriations for all services had to be reduced accordingly. The result of this will be that man·: irPms like endowments and grants to ho~pitals, charitable, educational, and benevolent institutions, and expenditure b-7 the GoYcrnrr1cnt on services of a si1nilar nUture, and in rnany other directions, will haye to be curtailed in keeping with econo­mics which arc being enforced in all State activities. The institutions I have mentioned should not object to sharing in the general retrenchment. which will have to be borne by the whole community.

The only way t'o comply with the resolu­tions adopted at the conference of Premiers held last \ugust, regarding the balancing of the Budget, is to keep expenditure ·within receipts. In a time like the present, when widespread depression has disorganised thu financial resources of taxpayers, it· will be most difficult to regulate expenditure to income. Under normal conditions there is a reasonable prospect of revenue anticipations being realisr'd The existing situation in this regard is problematical in the extreme.

RECEIPTS.

I anticipate that revenue from prPsent resources will be as follows :-

Amount from Commonwealth Taxation-

Income tax Land tax .. Licenses ..

~,~Y~1r-.~~~~?v and b·c·t~ ting tax ..

Land revenue }lining reecipts lLdhvnys .. Other receipts

£2,150,000 520,000 155,000

1,000,000

90,000

£1,096,235

:{,915,000 1 245 000

' 41:500 7,350,196 1,S70,.~00

£15,524,231

This sum is £474,339 less than was actually recnived Ja,t year. It must not be forgotten that receipts last year , . .-cl'<' £723.185 short of tho sum required to balance the Budget. Ta:mtion is expected to fall oft to the extent of £332.418. 1nainlv in incmno 1 -"Lx, the rcdl'.-'liou in whic.h will, probable-, be £2)9.5('], bnd tax and stamp duty account­ing for 1.,36,532 and £47,283. respectively. Land revenue is <;,timated to vicld £51.8~6 less. u ~

The sum of £196.000 is included in railway rC'ct:ipt:;:;, bt~ing the revenue estimated to be derived fro1n r:::tihvav rcfrcshnL:nt-roorns. RcvC'nue from this soUrce was not included in railway receipt::; 1a~t y0ar. It. is expected that dt(: ordjnary railwav 0arningv, wiH be dirninishc'd b:v about £196,000, tho net re·nlt being that the total recr•ipts this year will be, approximately, the same as last year.

F;, ancial Statn,wnt. 1357

Ex:PE~DITTTTIE.

::\[y r-~tlm:tto of cxp_ncliturc 1s ,'S follov,:-:. :­

£ Schedules . _ .. Interest on the public deht l'~Xeclltive and 1A~gjslnt.ive llrernicr and Cbicf 1:5ecretary Home ~erretary . . . . Department of Public \VnrkK .. Department of J,abour and lndustr:: Department of .Justice 'l'he Treasurer . . . . Department of Public I,ands .. DC]lartrnent of Agriculture and Stock Department of Public Instruction Department of }lines Department of Railways

702,879 5,:28(1,702

35,97~ 129,101

l,:l94,:lG7 147,097 198,37D lll8,±72 536,7tl!J 246,201 137,057

1,555,472 65 32G

5,644:150

Total £] 6,247,963

This sum is £665,000 loss than the actual disbu rsernent la' t year, allowing for the expenditure of £192,000 on railway refresh­ment-rooms, which w>Ls defrayed from Trust Fund. but· is now included in Revenue appro. priation.

The principal items for which additional provision is necessary are-

Interest and Sinking Fund contribu-tions . . . . . .

Department of the Treasurer £133.000 £103,000

~\.!though the public debt was reduced last year by £713,070, as I have already ex· plained, the interest charge on £1,560,639, liability taken over by the Commonwealth GoYernment on account of transferred pro­perties, is not reflected in this year's pro­vision, as, up to 30th June, 1929, this charge was included in the State's appropriation for interest on the public debt, although the Commonwealth actually paid the charge, the payment being treated in our accounts as a receipt. The capital debt was not actually taken over from the State until 1st July, 1929. No saving in interest is, consequently, ~'hO\V!l in eornparison \vith la~t ye.ar ~o far .a.s thjs itrm is ronc~~rncfl. Increas:_"'~d pro­vision of £105,000 has been made for interest required to meet an additional liability of £75,634 on the loan converted on 1st July, 1930, and on new debt.

The provision for ordinary services of the Department of the Treasurer is reduced by £63,000, but, owing to the present exces­sive cost of transferring money to London, which is likely to continue for a considerable time, it is necessary to pro:vide for the additional sum of £166,000 to meet thrs charge.

The administration of outdoor relief hav­ing been transferred from thc Homo s~cro­tar:v's Department to the Department of Labour and Industry, provision for the cost of this service is included in the appropria­tion for the latter department.

'l'he amount required for railways is £502,000 h'.'' than the expenditure for last yc~ar, including exrcnditurc on railway r'r freshrrwnt-rooms, which was defrayed from Trust Funds) as previously 1nohtioned.

\\'hoer tlw drdt F>timates of cxnenditure IYCY0 tir~t prcrarPd in .July. all salnrics and ~.Yngcs wc·C' ir~rlPdcd at the h1ghrst r.ates pny­ohlc ur:dcr aYY:rds of 1!10 Court of Industrial .Ar')itrntlon then in force. As tin1e would net permit of n1a kill[( the '.[Iterations rf'quirc-d to sho\v thP indiYidual saJarirs a!:d ,~,·ages at tllf' r<'·durPd rat~s in accordance with tho Sa1rries l\ct and th0 court's decision •.vith re~Jvcct to t11c bnsjc ·wag-e, the ~J.lar.T,~ or wage of an employee is still shown in the Eotimatcs

Hon. W. H. BaJ'ILs.j

1358 Financial Statement, [ ARSEl\IBL Y.] Financial Statrm.·nt.

at thP highest rate payable under awards. For example. on the 1st July the basic wag<' was £4 5s. pPr week or £221 per annum: a:s frorn 1st August the baRic wage was reduced bY the court to £4 per week or £208 per anrmr;r; a" from tlw 15th September thP ~.ervicc ba~ic wage has been reduce-d by th,-. Salaries Act to £3 16s. 6d. per "eek or, approximatPly, £199 per annum, but £4 per \veek, or £208 per annum_ will be paid in the <-asc of married employees. Thus, notwith-6tanding the provision in the Estimates, it must b" clearly understood that the present ~er,-ico basic "''vag·p is not £4 5s. per week or £221 per annum.

Sumrning up the position as regards revenue appropriations. the reduction of £665,000 is arrived at a~ follows:-

ltcduction:;:. in sabriPs. and wagC's, and economjes generally £966,000

Less-Increase in intetest and

Sinking Fund t·ontribu-tions . . . 1;}5,000

Additional 1)rovision for exchange £166,000

'l'Rl'ST Fuxns.

301,000

£665,000

'rlw total pxpenditure from t'lw various Tnt't Fund,; laiit year amounted to £5,276,778; the' (•,;tirnatecl requirem<:nts £or t lw currmrt vcur are £5,694,958, an Ihcreasl' of £418,180,' which is more than accounted for bv the appropriation for the fund created nude;: the Income CC nemployment Re lid) Tax ~"-et. 1t is anticipated that the expendi­ture from this fund will amount to £800,000.

t)iate insurance Uisb~rsen1ent'::; amounted td £878.904 la,;t year, whereas. owing to the c·xpansion of busincs,;, it is estimated that £1.012,823 will be required this year.

On account of the disposal of most of the State r>nt:erprises. the requirements for this account amount to only £25,190, as compared with the sum of £200.701 pxpende·d last year. or a "rving of £175.511.

It is Pxper-ted that i_)H~ Pstirnah)d increase of £418.180 in the expenditure from Trust Funds \Yill bP m<'l· b\ r<'ceipto.

LOAX Fl'ND.

1 do not intend to refer at any length to ihe amoLmt allotted to this State for loan rcquircrnents for the current year, as the mrt'ter ha,; already been very fully dealt wit.h by me.

The amount of £2.048.000 appropriatc'C! for the current year includes £50,000 for Kyogle­:-louth Brisbane Rail" av and £10,000 for the .agricultural snrvcy of' QueenslaJ1d. These amounts will be provided by the Common­wealth GovNnment. the latter being an "Jyance under the 'Migration Agreement. and theY 'lt'e not included in the sum of £1.92~.000 which has been allocated bv the Loan Council to meet the• State's ord'inarv programme of loan expPnditurc. The total amount is £763,967 less than thP expenditure of £2.811.967 last year.

OnP item inclnclc!d in the appropriation for the Hailway DopartrnPnt desen-es special mPntion. and that is the wm of £85.000 rcquirecl to meet tlw proportion payable by Qncensland of the c )st of the contract sc•ction <>f the South Hriebane-Kyogl<'> Railway. This represents the loss sustained by Queensland as a result of the late Government's action

[Hon. lL lJ, Barnes.

in contracting for thp construction of a cer-1 a in :->ection of that ·raihva~·.

G!'(•at difficulty was experienced in appor­tioning the• sum finally allocated by the Loan ( 'ouncil, as thi~ ;yas a considerable reduction on tlw atuount JHCYjonsly agreed upon. ..._.'\_ progranHllL' of expenditur.e on publiC' works and other services financed from Loan Funds had been arranged on the assumption that thP ~um of £2,620,000 original!~' allocated to l~ueensland \VOuld be available. When this wa·· .,-educed to £1.938,000 it im'olved the rcca:"tiHg of the ",~,hole prograrnn1e.

BcDGET POSITION, 1930-1931.

::\ohvithstanding the eanH•,t, efforts which ha vc• been made to curtail the cost of services defra0-pd from rcYenuc. I regret that it has not bePn posi'ible to reduce the amount required to a sum within the total of the prospoctiYe incornc. I t"stirr1ate that reyenuc­will be less than expenditure b) the sum of £723.732 .

Although no relaxation will be allowed in tlw efl'ort to effect further economies during­the year, it ·will be necessary to take step:-\ to augment revenue, in order to provide for the anticipated deficit. It is, therefore, pro­posed to n1ect the shortag·e-

(a) By adjusting and inereasing the incon1t) tax :

(b) By adjusting and inc,rpa:;;ing th~ succ('ssion duty;

(c) By increasing tlw stamp duty on betting tid:d-s.

As regards income tax, the statutory exemption will be reduced from £250 to £150. but th0 allmvanccs for wife and children will lw increased. Tho rates of tax payable on hio·hpr incon1c~ and ou th.P incorncs of com­pa~Jics and banb "ill also be increased. The additional taxation necessary to produce the required amount will be spread as oquitabl}' as possible over the whoho taxable field.

The increased ~ucceEsion duty will be levied 011 <'states over the value of £2,500. and the JnaxinlUill rates payablf' on large -<:~state,~ will be raised. The Pxcn1ption of a trust created for the J>a!'nwnt of c-nccession duty will be \Ylihdra\Yll.

The stamp dut_v of 1d. and 3d. on betting tickets will lw raised to 3d. and 1s. r<'spcc­ti,-ely.

'l'hesP increases will be designe-d to produce thu following revenue;-

Increased income tax Increased succession duty Increased stamp duty on

betting tickets

£ 600,000

85,000

42,000

£727,000

This additional ·rPvenuP, if rf'alised, will be thP rncans of convPrting the estirnatf'd doficiL into a surphH of £3,268.

R<"mlutions will be ·intrO'dtt.ccd in the Committee of \Vavs and :Means, a' soon as possible, containing details oLthcso proposals.

It would not be rio·ht for me to bring this Budget address to a" close without admitting that there are grave fmancial problems to he dealt with, and that we are passing thror:gh particularly difficult times. I do not thmk it is an exaggeration to say that the SituatiOn is more difficult than at any perwd of th<' State's historv, .and these conditions have a Y{'J'y :;:,prious [;ea ring upon our people genP­rally. Their cfl'ects are being experienced

Financial Statement.

bv llL'arlv all cla.-;se., of the eornruunitv. 'i1ht~l'P ar~·, very fevv cxceptiouf;. Surely nO\Y

i ... dw tilllP to ruake an atternpt to exarnine the causr's ! J\:o g·ood will be gained by fail­ing to do so. I will Hlf'ntion a fe\v of what I beli PYC to be thP c a usr",

.:Ylanv citizene have failed to realise the con­:;eqnt'llt~ '~ of extraYaganf'P-personal extravag~ ance-and the difficulties likely to ensue as the result of purc!m,ing on crediL Financial loss an~· erubarrassnH~lti~ arc bejng ::;uffcrpd by Inany rn consC'qucnce.

\Ye haYC also, in connection with State aft"airs

1 in onr anxiPty to get rnoney spent.

()verlookcd the fact that our efforts havP often gont• in tllt' direction of advocat,ing UJHlertakiJJgc. which have not paid, and which arc unlikPly to pa,\. r:ro all who are nE!'·O­eiatPd with pulJlic life this should convcv a :>.dutarv le--~ol1. and even: rnombcr of thl~ l'arliar;,"nt ihoulcl remen1bPr that interest has to be paid on money spent on public _.orks. and that the clay has gone by vvhcn IllOllPY can bo uasi]v borrowed to meet interest_ \V,, nlllst ali agr<'c that this class

·of l'XfJl'IHlitmP should not be adyocatC'cl l>:; pnblic tllCIL (li0ar. hPar !)

I have no objPdion whatpver to borrow­iug Ior public workc. provided the works eau retu1~n interest. and redemption paynu~·nt;;;, but I have v-ery strong objection to borrow­ing if such is not likely to be the case. It io, -after all. a good thing to know that in «ccordaw·p with the resolutions adopted' by the Commonwealth and the States, the spend­ing of borroYvcd money on unproductivP works "ill not be permisf'ible in the future,

Our financial troubles to-dav, at least in part, arc due to the fact that we have to find iuterc::;t and :?jnking fund::; upon n1oney that has bee11 obt.tined for undertakings which will nev-er pay, and for undertaking,; which Iran, been disposed of by tlw prc•;ent Gov-ern­ment lH~(·au8e they w·ere unprofitable. Tlw disposal of the latter undort akings does not. howe\'Of. relieve n~ of our financial liability.

f fepJ Surf!' that W8 shall eJTICrgc from QUI'

tH't':-JCnt trouble::;. ::\leanwhile \V(' haYe to suffer, and nuutv least ablcc to do so will he called upon to share in the suffering. l iirmly bclie.-e, however, that the cxpcrien .. ,• will bP good for !Joth Governments and people. I bPlie,-e we arc o\-crlooking thP nPed for concentrating our cnergie::. on intportant matters, and have given too n1uch attention to matters of minor -concern, which have not been for the general good.

There is a call for all to use brains and muscle in a reao;onable way for the dcvolop­ment of this great country, There is also a call for all Plasse' of thP community to unite in earrH'3t endeavour to -work together to improve things, Surely the clay of setting dass against class has. gonP by! (IIear, 1H ar !)

I do not wish to conclude without stressing tire importanpc of balancing onr accounts. I admit that in endeavouring to do so T· ha,·e had to adopt. methods which will moan self-denial and loss to many in our State, and which will meet with very severe •-riticism, but T honestly belie,-c that; having tackkd the business which is compulson-, it will ultimately he found that doing so lws been to our best int(•rcst,,

A' a people we should remember that ill(•rc is !ltuch to be thankfnl for. ProvidPncc has re.cent1y g-iven UR good seas.onfl, which ut 1 his time will he YNY hdpful. Producer' :.uL· lK·iug rPV\'arclcd vviih abundant returns

Sea Carriage, Etc., Bill. 1359

for their effort' in the shape of bountiful crop···. any 1nay our pastoralists and graziers a !so H'cUre good returns and satisfac.tory rewlts for their labours.

I wish to strike a note of hopefulness. \Ye have· a \\onderfui country, vVill it not pay at this time to think of how it has grown, and of the wonderful progress it has made, also to remember that we have over­come difficulties in the past? It will profit us to remember what some of our early pioneers did, and thP hardships they wont through, Our duty is to talk- our country up-(Hear, !war !)-it is worth it, and not to do anvthing to belittle it. We must give of oUr best and by so doing help to ,peel! the day to better things, (Hear, h0ar !)

I rnoye-'· That there be granted to His

::Yiajeo,i.v, for the service of the year 1930-1931 the sum uot exceeding £300 to deh~v the salarv of rhe Aidc-dc.Carnp to His Excellency the Goyernor.''

The House resumed, The CHAIR~!AN reported progress. l~esumption of Committee made an Order

of thl' Day for to-morrow.

SEA CARRIAUE OF GOODS (STATE) BILL.

REs D!PT! ox OF CO:llMITTEE.

{J/r, liobats, ],'ast Tool!'oomba, in the chair.)

" Thr ,-.,'ch•-tlulc---llltlts relating to bill,, of 1rttling"~

lttll•,tion stat.ed-''On page ~. lines 16 to 18, Article IV.,

c1ansl~ 2, omit the \vords-'(a) "\et. neglect, or default of the

master, mariner. pilot. or the ser­vants of the carriN in the navigation or in t.he 1nanagoment of the ship.' ''

(_\/ r. l'mu',, amendment).

:\lr. BRASSIKGTO:'\ (Balrmnc): At the adjournrncnt la;;;t night--

'l'hc TREASURER (Hon. W. H. Da.rn()s, 11' mnum): I beg to move-

" That the question be now put." Qu<•stion put and passed,

The CHAIR:YIA:\ : The question now lS­

,, That the words proposed to ba omitted stand part et the schedule.

i\lr, \V. FoRGAN Sl\llTH: 1\lr. Roberts, you have not put the other question-" That the question be now put!'

The CHAIR MAl\": Yes: it has been pul and passed_

l\Ir_ VII, FOI!GAN S)IITH: 2\io, Mr_ Roberts, (iOVERxl\IENT MEl\IBERS: You were asleep!

The CHAIRMAJ';': Order ~ The question has boon put and passed.

1\lr. W. FORGA:'< SMITH (Jfaclcay): I can ass1n·o you, Mr_ Roborts, that I did not h1 .1r you pnt the question. UOVERN~IENT ME~IBERS: The question waa

put,

::\Ir. \V. FORGAX SMITH: I prote9t most strongl:v agJ.inst the rushing tactics you .are adopting,

The• CrLHW\1A0:: I put the question, 1!r. HA·-Lox: You did not give anyow\

a!l "Jlportunit•- of hearing it,

ll-f1·. Srnith.]

1360 Sea Car. iage, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Children'8 Cou>·ts, Etc., Bill.

The CHAIRMA:\ : Order ! The question IlO\.Y lS-

"That the v. ords proposed to be omitt<cd :-land part of the schedule"

[5 p.m.]

Question-" That the v.·orcls proposed to be omitted from clans" 2 of .\rticle IV. of

'tho schedule l'trl'w's amendmtnt) stand part of schedule "-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 35. l\1r. _\therton ,\! t. King

Barnes, G. P. J\Trs. Longman Barw~_., W. I-I. .:i1r. lVlaxwE.il Blackley ~'loore Brand l\tlorga!l Butler l\i1nmo Carter Peterson Clayton Plunkett CosteUo RuB•ell, H. M. D•.o.con Russell, W. A. lJufiy Sizer Edwards Swayne Fry T~m= Grimstone Tozer Hill Walker, H. F. Jamieson Walker, J. E. Kenny Wienholt Kerr Tellers: Mr. Kenny and Mr. Nimmo.

NOES, 23. Mr. Bedford Mr. Jones, A.

Bow Jones, A. J. Brassington Kir\van Bruce Mullan Conroy O'KeMe Cooper Pease Dash Smith Dunlop Stopford Foley ·wellington HJ.nlon Wilson Hanson Winstanley Hynes

Tellers: Mr. Dunlop and Mr. A .• Tones

PAIRS. AYBS. NOES.

Mr. Warren Mr. Barber KPl-..o Pollock Daniel Bulcock Annand Collins

Resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. STOPFORD (Mount 1vlorgan): I should like the Treasurer to explain what paragraph (q) of dause 2 in Article IV. means. The paragraph reads-

" Any other cause arising ,Yithout the aciurd fault or privity of the carrier, or withont the fault or nq .. dPct of agents or of the cu !Tier, bur-doH proof shall be on claiming tho beneftt of thls cxcopi1on to hnw that neither the actual fault or privit~, of the carrier nor Hw fault or ncg]er·t of the agents or servants of the carrier contribnted to the loss or damage."

That nlR:'-~ nlCfUl an_;"thing, and it 1nay mPan nothing. Perhaps the hon. member for Toombu1, who appears to be r~ally in charge of the Bill, mig-ht explain it. Clause 2 of Article IV. provides-

" Neither the carrier nor the ship shall be r·· oponsible for loss or damage arising or resulting from-

(c) Pt•rils, dan,-crs. and ac·~idents of the sea or other navigable waters;

(d) Act of God; (e) Act of war; (f) Act of public enemies;"

[.!lr. /i,:upfonl.

and so on. I would be glad to spare the Treasurer, but 1 like to hear him speak.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. II. Darnco, 1Vynn,urn): 'rho hon. n1en1bcr is such a genial mernbc1~ that it is ahvays a pleasure to give hin1 anv infonnation. I 'vant to say that paragn{ph (q) just mean> what it says. (Lnm;hter.) lf the hon. member uses the intelligence which I !mm: he has, he will immediately sec its meanin~;. In ttddition to that, it is part and parcel of Act'· through. out the world dealing with the ~:.trne matter.

Mr. STOPFORD: That is as clear as mud. Mr. KmwAx: That explanation ought to

appear in " Ga.llcrv Notes" to-morrow. Question-" That the schedule, as read, be

the 'Checlulc of the Dill "-put; and the Corn· mittec divided:-

Mr.

Mr.

AYES, 33. Atherton Barnes, G. P. Barnes, vV. H. Blackley Brand Butler Carter Clayton Coste!lo Deacon Duffy Edwards Fry Grimstone Hill .Jamieson Kenny

:Oir. Kerr ,. King

Mrs. Lnngman 1\Ir. :\Iaxwell

::\Too re Morgan Nimmo Peterson PlunkPtt Russe!l, H. M. Russell, W. A .. Swayne Tedman Tozer Walker, H. F. Wienholt

Tellers: :Oir. Carter and Mr. Duffy

NOES_, 22. Bedford ::Vlr. J ones, A. Bow Jou. ·,A. J. Bra~sington Kirwan Bruce Mullan Conroy O'Keefe Dar:ih Pea. e llunlop Smith Ji'oley Stopford Hanlon '\V~llington HanRon \\.,.ilson Hynes , Vlinstanley

Tellers: Mr. Hanson and ~ir. O'Keefe.

PAIRS. AY1i.:S. NOES.

:Mr. Warren Keho Daniel An nand

Mr. Barber Polloel< Ilulcock Collins

Resolved in the affirmative.

The I-I ouse resumed. The CJ11dlDL\N reported the Bill without

an1cndnv .. mt. Third l'cading of the Dill made an Order

of the Day for to-morrow.

CHILDRE:\'S COURTS ACT AMEND· 1m:-n BILL.

SECOJ';D READ!:-lG.

The H011E SECRETARY (Hon .. r. C. Potrrson, ~\ orn~an!J'.If): In nlo\·ing the sceond r< •dircg of thio Bill I do uot think l need add a.:1:ythin~ to what I sa1ci al! a prc~nous stage. Thr~ object of the rn~ lSUro 1S _to n·wo\ c f:'O!n thl; precincts of police courts LhildrLl "rho are charged offenc~3 and triL'rt under the Children's Courts Act. I lHt\·c already explained "·by it is ~Jc.jru.ble t.o rorno\·o children frotn the envnonrnont of the police court··, and I need not ::~dd to what I then s,ci.,.J.

Ohildrrn's Courts Act [2 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. l:Hil

The Bill makes provision for the appoint­ment by the Governor in Council of any public officer as a special magistrate; and in ihis connection-I do not make any secret of the intention of the Government-it is proposed to appoint Colonel Ferguson, the Director of State Children, to take charge of the children's courts in Brisbane.

l\Ir. vVELLING'fON : He is inclined to be harsh. ·

The H02\1E SECRETARY: \Vo all know that any person in a position of responsi­bility will have that charge made against him, because he has to face facts as they are, and not as he would like them to be.

:'Ir. HANLO:'>i: \Vill he retain his present jlo,•ition as Director of State Children?

The HOME SEGHJ<:TARY: Yes. It is only occasiona!ly that his services will be required as magistrate. At the present time a great d<•.1l of the time of the Director of the State Children Department is taken up in attending the children's court. The proposed children's court will not be a court in the severe sense of the term, but it will be a place where children will bo able to give their evidence free from anv influence that might in any way tend to' injure or blunt their tender susceptibilities. :The environment will be evervthin"' that is con­ducive to the correct upb;·ingit~g of the chil­dren having regard to all the circumstances.

Mr. STOPFORD: I quite agree that a changed enYironment is a step in the right direction.

Mr. W. FORGAN s~nTH: You will ha Ye to be careful that the complainant is not also tho presiding magistrate.

The HOME SECRETARY: I shall deal with that point. Provision is made in the Dill for the appointment of justices of the peace. Gentlemen, for instance, like 1\lr. Ncv1tt who have a knowledge of matters appertaining to this subject would be well fitted to preside over these matters.

Mr. STOPFORD: And l\Ir. Porter, the Registrar-General.

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes. We could call them in when the necessity atose. If we find that the scheme does not work satisfactorily and that it operates unfairlv towards the children, the GoYernmcnt will not hesitate for a moment to remcd, the position. I think it will be readily a'gn>ed that the proposal will be in the intereds and for the benefit of the children.

The proposal >Yill apply particularlv to Brisbane, but provision is made for· the appointment o£ special ma<Sistrates froi:n tho public service in other pettv sessions districts. If a mag·istrate is to be -selected. Fay, for Rockhampton. IY arwick. or TownsYille. it is only natural that the GoYernor in Council will 'elect a man fitted for the position. I do not argn" for a moment that evcrv justicf> of the peace is competent to pre>ido o_ver a court; the-y are competent to attest srgnaturcs and that sort of thing.

Mr. \VELLIXGTON : Jus tiers of the peace are recommended for appointment by membecs of Parliament.

The HOME SECRETARY: That is so, and they perform a public service and do their work very '"ell; hut every justice of the peacc is not qualified to preside over a judicial tribunal. Therefore, the Govern-

1930-4 p

ment will be careful to see that the persons selected to preside oyer these tribunals are mon qualified by temperament to adjudicate upon these delicate matters.

Mr. W. FoRGAX SJ\IITH: It will be a ques­tion of Jccuring men temperamentally fitted for the work.

The HOME SECRETARY: That is so. Dealing with children is quite a different matter from dealing with adults. \Ve must select men who are temperamentally fitted­men who understand children and appreciate their ways and finer feelings. I am sure that the proposal will be of benefit to the children, and will not "ubjcct them to the harsh surrounding;; to which they have been , ubjected in the past. I do not blame any­body for what has happened in the past; but. as tirne rolls on, ·we introduce now la,vs or amend oxiJting la\\~."' as experience dictate'. The hon. member for Bulimba and repre­solltat1vcc, of 'WOJnen's organi• ations have repeatedly waihd upon me requesting that this changc bo made.

Mr. vV. li'ORGAN SJ\I~TH: You might con­sider a proposal to allow women to preside over these courts in special circumstances.

The HOME SECRETARY: That might receive con~ideration. There is no reason '·' hy women trained to some extent in law and specially qualified for the position should not be allowed to preside. Generally speak­ing, Colonel Ferguson has a thorough know­ledge of the law relating to his department, and no matter what we may think of him in other respects we have to admit that he is fair--

Mr. W. FoRGAN SJ\liTH: He doe'- his job.

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes, and he does it well. Power is taken to establish these courts in other parts of Queensland. In other parts of the State, up to the present time, children haYe been brought into contact with the harsh and uninviting atmosphere of police courts in the same way as in Bris­bane.

I also mentioned the grca t saving of t'ime that will be effect0d to police magistrates. Thrir work is somewhat congested in Bris­bane, and they devote a considerable amount o£ time to hearing charge,, sometimes of a somewhat lengthy nature, against children in the children's court. At the same time l.awycrs, litigants, and witnesses have busi­f!G~:J with the police L~lagistr.atcs in the courts of summary jt!ris·dietion. Children's court3 can only commit chil<ircn to a reformatory or an approved home·. Courts of this descrip­tion cannot commit children to gaol. The age limit is a bar to their doing so.

l\fr. \V. FORGAX SJ\IITH: What is the age lin1it?

The HO:'dE SECRETARY: Seventeen ,-ears. Therefore. hon. members have no need tn fear that children will be harshlv dealt wit·h by being sent to· gaol, because ,;o such provision exists under this Bill or under the principal Act. They become adults at a certain a.gc, and then can be sent to trial in the ordinary eoursc. This change of venue for the hr .cring of charges against children will remo,-e them from an undesirable Pnvi­romncnt. Through the absence of the true homo environment, and by association with La<i companions, innocent children are very often led off the path and got into trouble. We propose that children coming within the pun-iew of courts of this kind will be

Hon. J. G. Petcrson.]

1362 Children's Courts Act [ ASSEJ\IBL Y.] Amendmc·nt Bill.

removed from the pr0sent sordid surround­ings of the police courts, and, instead of coming into contact with surroundings that maY be harsh in character, they will experi­ence that sympathy and understanding which will be helpful to them in their future. To mv mind it will bc a welcome relief to p~~rcnts and guardians as well as to the children tlwmsch-cs to remoYe them from the present surrounding~, o£ the nolice court, where, unfortunately, certain classes of people congregate. I haYe outlined the three prin­cipal features of the Bill, v;hich is a very short ono and should commend itself to hon. iHC111bcrs.

l\lr. HA:-:LO~: Will it be possible to provide acconunoib_tion .away frorn the police courts in all petty sessions districts?

The HO:\rE SECRETARY: This Bill pro­vides that all cases against children in Bris­bane shall be heard at the director's office i" vViiliam ·tree!.

l\Ir. IIANLO~: I me an iu the petty sessions disrricts outside the metropolitan area?

The HOME SECRETARY: Similar pro­..-ision is being made in respect o£ those di~tricts. The object is to remoye the chil­dren from tho environment of the police court. I have n1uch pleasure in rnoving~

"That the B:ll be now read a second tin1e. ~'

:\lr. STOPFORD (JI oun t Jf organ) : I am sure that everv hon. member on rhis side of the House rNilise'; that the Bill is a simple OJJC, and a stop in the right direction. It rr.cans that we are carrying a step further the policy enunciated in 1907 by Mr. Kid,ton, who first constituted com·is for children. The only objection-if I may tPrm it an objection ~to tho Bill is the fact that it makes pro­vision for the Director of the State Children Department to be appointed a magistrate to hear these cases. l have alreaclv stated that I have the highest admiration· for Colonel Ferguson in his job as Diredor of State Children; but tho mere fact that he is tem­peramental:y fitt0d to occupy the position of Director to my mincl places him at a dis­advantage in judging the child afterwards. I was for seYen v<>ars associated >vith the work of Colonel ·Fuguson, and also with many other officers in his department. I wa' for wme time the occupant of ibe office of Home Sc,Tetary, which brought me into dose contact with the department, and I know how delicate a matter it is to decide matters in relation to children.

Tho Ho~IE SE RETARY: The Bill provideq that the Director or a justice of the peace may be appointed a magistrate of the chil­dren's court.

::\Ir. STOPFORD : The Minister might Ineet mr wishes very simply. The Director and his officers come into contact with manv p.arents >d10 should not have charge ~f children. In my experience youngsters haYe been sent to a reformatory who should not haYG gone there at all. Every hon. member who knows what the barracks svstem is knows that boys of twelve or fourteen years of age should neYer be committed to such an insti­tution if there is any possible means of avoiding it.

I haYe knm>"n of cases-and Colonel Ferguson will also know them-where bovs havo been sent tn reforrnatorics for ypJ·v trivial offences. I know that in some case~c the extent of the crime was such that. if the boy should justly have gone to a refor-

fHan. J. C. Peterson.

matory, then in my y<Juth I should hayo boen hanged. (Laughter.) There are cases where jnr}jcious handling is nece~~;ary. A corn­plaint may be made to the State Children Department that a child is being neglected, aud the department makes the fullest pos­sible inquiries. If the department has already decided that the child should go to a refonnatory, \vhy the farce of having a trial? It seems rather ludicrous that the department should take all action in con­nc·r·tion ,,·ith the complaint and then sit in judgn1cnt on the decision arrivcU at. I kl.iO\Y that a reprirrtand is given in 90 per tent. of the cases. with good effects. I can Yi~ualise cases of ccmplaints bC'illg made throubh naggiz1g neighbours or lying rela­tives; it is quite possibk for a ca.so to b0 .' framed up." After all, the inspector' in I he dcpe.rtnH,nt do not· possess all tlw intel­ligence in th~ \Vorld, or they would possibly h:,ve better JObs than thev ha.-e. The in­epecior submits a report, and the Diredor, \Yho kllO\i\'S nothing of the cir.;umstances, O.K.'s it. and submits it to the police, who, i 11 turn, bring the child before the court. Tlwn the pers-on who has O.K.'d the report to the po!icP will sit in judgment on the r(·atter. I do not for one n101nent suggest 1 hat Colonel Fcrguson would do those things.

The liO:IIE SECRETARY: \Yould vour objt'C· tion be met by haYing a just'ice of the peace?

Mr. STOPFORD: In probably 70 twe cent. of the cas('S that come before tlw de­partment the parents arc not worth a snap c: the fingers. and it would qe a good thing L:r the childrPn to be takc1 a\\av from their control. At the same time, hem-ever, some provision ~hould be rnade for ra:3f'S in ,~,hich the parent -or guardian is dissatisfwd with the departmental decision. If the parent or guardian thinks that the method under which the c,-id<'nce has b0"n collected i.~ wrong, tlwn he or she should have a right to ask that an independent person--a pPrson not in anv wav connected \Vith the State Children be1lal:b11cnt-shonld consic1or the case. It is not right that the dtwl offices of prosecutor and judge should be held by one pc:·son. I kno\v frorn rny ovYn exprri­('llC0 that the dqoartmental officers will gi,-e a fair deal in 99 per cent. of cases, but I also- know that once a man gives a decision ic is vcrv difficult fr·r him to retract if he finds that he is wrong.

You, 1\Ir. Speaker, ar" on'' of the very few m.0n wh0 ~an do it, and I admired yery rmch the attitndo which you adopted to-day in relation to a matter of procpdure which arose last year. 1 sugg,,st that the J-Iome Secretarv should consider the adYisability of p;-o,:iding that, where a parent or ~uardian desire,,, it, a person ab-,olutely independent of the State Children Depart­ment should try tho case. I do not want to move an ame~dmcnt; I would rather that thP Bill went through with our ble -sing; rmd I ask the l\1inistPr to meet us in thQ direction I have indicated.

[5.30 p.m.] I think the Bill is a step in thP right

-direction and it is one that we can all appland. I know it is the desire of every member to try to evolve some means of pre· Yenting boys being sent to a reformatory, because anyone who knows the horrors of any barrack system-the very environment leads to evil practices-would rather allow boys who may have an evil effect on their

Children's Courts Act [2 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1363

immediate surroundings to remain outside the four walls of these reformatories and other places. That is why we haYc advauced far enough to-day to institute the sy .tom of foster-n1othcrs, whereby we give children a home life and remove them from temptations to come under the influence of those dreaded ,-ices that beset both sexes, no matter whether sr,grcgated or not in any ha rrack system that you n1ay in;;titute. Cases rnay arise where an officer of the State Children Department may commit himself to a report, and then use his po3ition to the detrin1ent of the child rather than go back on his word; and for that reason the parent or guardian should have an .opportunitv of applying to have any ca;;e heard by a t1olice n;_agistratc

::\Ir. FRY (Kuril11a): I want to congratu­late the _Mi_nister on introducing this Bill, bccau-G rt rs gomg to take children away from tlrc envrronment of police and criminal courts. It is also going to remove them fr~mr the regalia of courts to a place which wrll partake more of the nature of a place of equity than a court of law. vVhen dealrng with children one must be guided Yery largeh- by circumstancfs which cannot Le prcscriLed in written words. One must try to find what is in the mind of the child· what is the intention of the child· and what in' pi res the child in anything th~t he doe<. V cr·y often a spi1·itcd child is punished mvn~g. to the fact that the person who admmrstcrs the punishment does not under­stand the child. Children are often spoiled hoc a use they are not understood. It is to be hoped that, as a result of this amendment to the Act, children will be studied not from the standpoint of orthodoxv but' from the standpoint of temperament:' Environ­ment frequently influences the character of a chrld; and it migh~ be necessary for the magrstrat:' or person m charge of the case to prescnbe a change of em·ironment.

I am plcaced that the Bill hits been broucrht forward, but I think some outs1de autho1::'itv should be made available in order to try some of these cases. I have the highest regard for the officer- m charge of the State Children Department. He is a man of the highest mtegnty_, ~nd. one who would not knowinglv do an ll1JUStJcc to. anybody, and in tha't regard I have nothmg more to sav: but I do ~ay that ~he inspectors of the dcj1artment through ~a~'Ing been associated ,vith a case: !""Y bo JUst a little biassed-not wilfullv lmt because of the associations-and for th~t reason some authority should bo available. It mrl)ht. he, a woman justice of the peace. I am mclmcn l<; think that women arc more capable of gettm,- to know the child mind than men are. It is a natural qualitv of wo~en to understand children, and in their earw days they follow d1ffc :ont avenues of thought,. they have ideas of their own, and have thou· own outlook on life which tlwy trv to follow. Unless we can get into th!'s onnronment and sphere of thought >ve can­not understand the child, and punishment maY be aclmrmstered to a child because it is not understood. I take it that the whole object of this Bill is to deal with children on the kindergarten method-to look upon them as tender plants who arc being tended in therr early ycar:s to make them g·row strong, not only physrcally but morallv. If this court is ;1 ble to exercise its jur1sdiction in such a way as not to brand these children as criminals· or wrongdoers, but to exert an

encourag-ing influence upon them, the Bill IYill jushfv itself, and the .Minister will have a memorial for all time which will never be taken from him.

l\Ir. BRUCE ([( ennedy) : The necessitv for this department is one of the blots on' our civil!sation. I think it is well for political parnes gcnerall::;~ to investigate the social caLtscs which make the State Children Dcpartrnent necessary. EYerv year \VO have hundreds of thousands of chil(hcn brou,ht up under normal conditions in .Austra1ic~ and who n1ake average good citizens, whilst a certain scd;on come under the Stotc Children Departrnents; anJ there is certainly ~on1e reason why thee are different to the hun­clr·eds of thousands of othPr children. Such quc;.;:tions as poverty drink shun surround­ing,-. and conditions' undoubtedlv contribute towar-ds the nee< ssitY for the establishment of Rtatc Children Departments. The intention of the present Bill is an cxcc'lent one. I think every hon. member will support it, because it takes a>Yav these children from the surroundings of the police court. We know that our police oftlcers are in the habit of dealing with adult criminu ls of all g·rades of crin1inality, and tho enyironn1ent of the court is entirely unsuitable for children in any case; and the M;nister is doing so·ne­thrng to adYancc the interests of the children in cre:-tting thE' courts he suggest~. Colonel Fcrguson is the director oi' this dcpartrnent, and I hrtYe always found him to be an excr>l­lent officer, but i: think that the proposal to ha" 2 a n1agi!'.tratc to sit on t.h0se rases is an cxc<'llPnt one, particularly when the J\Tinister 1nention,,, ).,lr. Ncvitt, vYhmn I happen to know personally, and \Yho. I think. is a rnan of the right temperament for a position of this kind. Cnfortunately, Mr. );eyitt is RO scri­ouslv ill that it is doubtful >Yhctlrer Iris ser­vices will Le available for quite a tirn0. I \YOuld sugge~t that men and vrorncn appointed to these positions should be those >vho have rca·rcd families of their mvn, so that th0Y

'Ot!id know something of the trouble, anc] trials associated with rc·aring childrml. I hope that the Minister will consider the ques­tion of appointing magistrates of that kind.

The HO}fE SECRETARY: The Bill gives power to do that.

Mr. BRCCE: It ,,-ill be an improvement, b( causa Colonel :Fcrguson has qui to enough to do in his prPent occupation, and if he has to act in a dual capacity it will involv" an addition to his duties.

:,It-s. LONGMAN (IJulimba): It is refresh­ing to note that hon. n1cn1bers on both sides arc in agreement in their support of this Bill. h <'rnbodie- a reform that we have long l'eeded in the State of Queensland. In \Y cstern Australia for the last twenty years thev have had children's courts run on the uo~t up-to-date lines; and those who have experience of the work of the children's courts knm\ what a splendid influence they can have on the lives of children. We do not look upon the delinquencies of children a· crimes, for we realise that delinquent children are not criminals. Thi:y may be potential criminals if they are not looked after and helped aud their instincts and cDcrgy directed into other ways.

I am very pleased indeed that the Govern­ment have decided to introduce this Bill and tc appoint special magistrates to deal with children's cases. Necessarily much of the success of the innovation depends on the

JJlrs. Longnwn,]

1364 Children's Courts Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

magistnctcs who will be appointed. Several hon. members have suggested that the majority of the children who will come before the e magi-trates will be State children. I do not think this is so ; many of them are fine types, and many of our good citizens haYc been State children. No doubt, many other children will be brought before the children's courts. I think that the Director of State Children is really an admirable officer for appointment as special magistrate under this Dill. I haYe had experience of his work, and I realisCJ that he has a knowledge of child psychology which is so essential to ,uccess in handling children. Of couroe, as a rule, women are able to bring up children better than men, but there are men who are equally a, capable of training and directing children a3 women; and I think from what I know of Colonel Ferguson that he has a very fair idea of the child mind. It would be yerv useful to haYe v.·omen justir0s of tho peace acting in an adYisory capacity; bqt I would not like to '" v thnt the solo fact t·hat women arc justices proves that they are euitable to be magistrates of children's conrts. Su('h n n~agif:trate n1ust have some knowledge of child psychology and know how to deal with children; and the verv fact that vvomcn are mothers would not o"f itself qualify them to deal with children, although naturally it would help. The mrrgist:-ato of the children's court in Sydney, :Mr. Fmcham, has done exccll0nt work there ~or ~cYcral years, and won1en's organisations m Syclney and women from other parts of the world ho have visited his court have eroken Ycr: highly of him as a magistrate. That confirr.ns the view that much depends on the magistrate. and that it is a question of the person and not of the sex; and so long as the magiFtratc is somebodv v:ho has a thorou10·h knowledge . of child psychology and rcahses that he 1s dealino- not with criminals but with children whoc need guid­ance and help 1t does not matter so yery much. '

In this connection it v:ould seem de~ irablc: to have a s;~·stem of probation officers who would follow np children who had been through the ch!ldren's courts. Thilt is done ill other parts of the v;.rodd, and has proved to be an excellent system. The~ keep in touch vnth the ch1lclren v:ho have been in the courts. folJow them throuo-h their lives and help them if their home life i. not wr~ mitable and the children ar~ not getting the care that t·hey should be gethng. This system has bc0n in OpPration in \Yest<:.rn Aus't:Talla and in EnglaEcl, and I hope that it will be inaugurat0d in Que-ensland in tlH:- near future. \Yonwn police would be fitted to caiT' ant this work. I am delighted the Home Secretar:· has introduced this Bill to~ day, ae I f<'cl sure that it is ono that will brc of inestimable value not onlv to the children of (;lueensland at the present time but also to the future citizens of our State.'

i\lr. DASH (Jhmd£ng7mrrrz); Thr• action of the Home Sccrdary in introdueing this Bill is a >top in the right direction and o:1e that will b appreciated by the 1;cople or Quecns]anrl. :\Iany children are brought before the court because of the action of ~~1cir parent_~. , vvho, in giving an CXl)lana­tion of a chLd s conduct. may sa,,- that thcv have no control over tho child. A chil;l may walk into a Chinaman's >hop, take a bag of poanute. a bag of lollies. or a water~ melon. and is brought before the cuurt. In a weak moment a parent may say that he

[Jlrs. Longman.

has no control oYer the child, and the child is sent to a reformatory. A letter is immedi. ately written by the parent to a member of Parliament, asking that lK wait upon the Home Secretary to explain the whole case, which was not done when the child was before the court. I am satisfied that, if more care were taken when a child is brought before the court, it would be returned to its parents and would be better looked after in the futuro. I realise that the department must be careful that lads sent to a reformatory have sincerely repented of their action before being permitted to return home; and the department must be satisfied that stricter control will be exercised for the future. I am sure that a little judicious handling at the time of arrest would ob,-iate a lot of trouble in after life. \Ye have only an inspector of State children at 'fownsville; but I am sure that the police magistrate will be able to preside over all cases affectir ;r children in that city. Cases of crirr1e by children occur now and again, but there is not yerv much crime committed by youngsters in 'I'ownwille. The depart· rnent is housed in a nc\v building situated in Stanley and Flinders streets, and no doubt the court could be held there. I should like to know from the Home Secretary whethu it is the intention of the Govern· ment to exclude the public from the chil~ ,Jren's court. At the present time the public haYe access to the court where the children are being dealt with.

The HOME SECRETARY; You arc not right there.

l\lr. D),SH; Crowds congregate on the balcony in the hope of being able to listen b the evidence. Th2 public should not be allowed accc,s to this court;

The Ho:IIE SECRETARY; That will be safe· guarded again:;t.

Nir. I))1.SH; I am very glad to kno.w that. I know the Home Secretary is \'cry sym· pathetic towa,·ds children and v-er;·: solicitous of their welfare. The· Bill is a move in the nght directicn. and it is to be ho,>ed that, a; a result of its passage, fewer children will b:3 sent to reformatories.

Dr. KERWIN (Me1thyr); In conjunction with other hon. members, I congratulate the Home Sccretar: upon bringing forward Fuch a hurnane measure. Everyone deplores the fact that youngst"l's of tender years have to be brought into the vicinity of a police court. There is something in what the hon. member for ?daunt Morgan has stated, and I am rather inclined to agree vv-ith what he said. I am not altogether in faYour of the Director of the State Children Department being the judge. I do not ques· tion in any way the humdne instincts or wisdom of the director ; but, when the officers of his department are VCi'J often the persons vvho make the complaints, it would be wise in such cases to I ea ve tho door open EO that someone else could sit in judgment. I am mre that the Minister will takr note of the wishes of hon. members on both sides of the House on this matter.

In every case where children are brouP,"ht up the last place they should be sent to is the reformatory. I do not hesitate to cay that I haYe a horror of the rcformrttorv, no matier how well it may be conducted. The authorities might have the very best of intent.iL)llS, nevcrtheles.,, there is an atinos­pherc about a reformatory which leaves an imprint on the inmate' who later on v. ill

Children's Courts Act [2 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1365

grow into adult life and never lose it. Some children might improve, but I think the majority of them will leave the reforma­tory and go out into life with instincts they did not posse,,s when they were committed to it. Every effort should be made, there­fore, to place children under some other control than that of a reformatory.

If such institutions are necessary, they should be conducted on scientific lines. Thcv should not be looked on as prisons, or, as the hon. member for Mount Morgan said, as barracks. Scientific men should be placed in charge in order to study the mentality of the children. Some unfortnna te children have criminal instincts inherent in them. They cannot help it. Others do not possess those instincts; they have much better instincts; but, if they are allowed to come into contact continually with those children who have criminal instincts, it will be found that good children will never alter the chil­dren with criminal instincts, and that very often the children detrimentally affected arc the good children. There should be some scientific authority in charge of the children who would keep the two classes separate.

There is nothing else I wish to say except to say how pleased I am to support the Bill, and how very gratifying it is to know that it is endorsed by even hon. member.

Mr. HY:'\IES (Townsvillc): I desire to express my approval of the introduction of this Bill. Every hon. member is conscious of the great benefit which will accrue to the children concerned by reason of their removal from the sordid environment of the court. I agree with those hon. members who have expressed the opinion that the Director of the State Children Department will not be a suitable person to preside over the chil­dren's court. I admit that he is probably as humane as most men are, but '"e should have a special magistrate appointed to pre­side over this court. I certainlv would be opposed to any of the existing police magis­trat~s acting in that capacity. A police magistrate, no matter how humane he may be, eventuallv becomes callous to a certain extent in the discharge of his duties. It has always been a puzzle to me why a police magistrate should inflict such very severe sentences on juvenile offenders. A child charged with petty thieving, for which an adult would be sentenced probably to four­teen days' imprisonment with hard labour, is verv often sentenced to five vcars' incar­ceration in a reformatory. These are matters that should engage the attention of the Home Secretary.

I know the argument can be advanced that it is often necessary to take the child away from the home environment : but a more suitable place than a reformatory could be found in which to place the child. There are many humane people who would be prepared to assume the custody and responsi­bility of rearing juYcnilo offenders. Just as under oqr present system we ha Vf' foster­mothers looking after children, so the rear­ing of these juvenile offenders could be undertaken~and would willingly be nnder­tnken~by many good-hcarted people in the communit,v, I ag-ree with the hon. mem· bcr for Merthyr that there is no worse <'nvironment in which to place a child than that of a nublic reformatory. where the child mu t inevib blv come into contact with chil­dren of subno;·ma] mentality and frequently of criminal instincb, The Minister would

do well to apply himself to a solution of these questions.

This Bill is undoubtedly a step in the right direction and I agree with other speakers that, in' the interests of the child, it is essential that he should be .removed from the sordid environment of a criminal court. I would emphasise the necessity for investigat­ing the pos,ibility of securing suitable types of constables to make any inquiries which are necessary in connection with juvenile off~n­dus. Cases have come under my notice where the conduct of certain police officers v,ho have carried out investigations in con­nection with juvenile offenders has created a bad impression with the public generally. There is a suggestion afoot to appoint women police, and probablv they would be the most suitable people to carry out those investiga­tions; but in any case t'here are suitable men available in the police force to whom could be delegated the work of inquiry in these cases. On many occasions I have received complaints from parents as to the offensive nature of the questions which were directed to them when inquiries were made in con­nection 1vith children who were alleged to be neglected.

I support the Bill, and I feel sure that the Minister will see the necessity of going still further in order to give juvenile offenders a better chance of returning to the straight and narrow path and becoming good citizens than they haYe at present.

[7 p.m.]

:vlr. :\IULLAN (Flinders) : In common with othel' hon. member", I give this Bill my biec,sing, and I also desire to deal with one aspect that has not so far been l'efe!'red to by any hon. member. It is just as well that I should remove what might be an erroneous impression~that by transferring cc!'tain powers from the police magistl'ates to the Dil'ector the Bill is casting a reflec­tion on them. I do not think the Ministe!' intended that.

Tho Ho:uE SECRETARY : It is done in the interests of the children.

::\fr. MULLAX: Police magistrates have ahva·,-s dealt with children', cases in a most lwm~ne and sympathetic fashion. In the •dwle of my ten year's administration of the Department of Justice I never once had parents coming to me to, complain of the harshness of a police magistr;;Je towards their children.

It is juet as well that we should be seized of the facL that, whilst the Minister pro­posr;s to take children in Brisbane to the State Children Department to be dealt with, the practice that hitherto obtained was not that the children went into the police c<Jurt. The imnrr,ssion mav obtain that thev are tried in· the courts, 'but such is not theo case. Special time's are allotted and a special place for the hearing of cases against children. It is generally the police magis­trate's room, and into that room arc allo\Yed only the police m'lgistrate, parents, the com­plainant, the child of course, and perhaps some representative of a charitable organisa­tion; so that the cases are conducted strictly in private

I have unboun3ed faith in the capacity of the Director of State Children, 1vho ought by now to understand child psychology as well Rs most men. At the same time I see

llir. Jivllan.]

1366 Children's Courts, Etc., Bill. [ASSElVIBLY.] Holidays Acts, Etc., Bill.

nothing wrong with a police magistrate deal­ing 'vith these ca.;;es. The police n'lagistratE:> has b~en a great success in the past; and, whilst I agree with the Minister that we should take these children as far away as possible from the mrdid and unsavoury utmosphcrc of the police court and its pre­cincts, there can be no objection to the poiice magistrate. He can just as readily an cl .as easily preside over the,-c casos in some other building as in the police court. ~Whilst I have no special objection to the Director of the State Children Department taking on the job, the present man will not ah\ ays bo th< Director.

The Ho>JE SECRETARY : W o are not bound to have him.

Mr. MCLLAN: I admit the word "mav" is thoro. Still, the Minister said the di!:oc­tor would carry out this work. I wish him luck of the job, and I know he will do it well; but I have such unbounded faith in the police magistrates, with whom I was associated for so long that without anv rclb;tion on the Dircct~r, I think the police mag1st,ratcs, taking· them by and large, understand human ps:-·chology better than he does. It is '"ark of which thev have had practic~~l experience; and I believe in cases of this kind they \Yould do at least as well.

Thoro is one point which the Minister should particularly note. Sometimes-not in a11 cases-charges arc preferred again~t children at the instigation of the State Ch11dren Department itself, as was pointed out bv the hon. m<)mber for ]}fount lYloro·an this a'fternoon. 'Where ~a charge is p;efcr~·ed by the State Children Department against a ch1ld. or .• 1:ramst a parent for neglect of the ch1kl. 1t would be most inadvisable for an . office1~ of the department to be adjudi­catmg officer; and I hope that the Minister in his discretion, will avoid the possibilit~· of that happening. I do not think the poin't rcqnucs stre~s1ng; tlu~ po3sibliities are so obvious that the Minister secs them· and I hope that where a case is preferr~d bv the State Children Department itself he wili not pcrn;it either the Director or any of the other ofhcors of the department to preside as ma,,istrate in that particular case. Of mmsc, the Bill is not hard and fast in this regard, and gives the Minister ample power to safeguard against that contingency.

The hon. member for J\!Ierthyr referred to the baneful effects of r~formatory life upon the children, and I ent1rely agree with his remarks. The Act which this Bill is amend­ing provides that, even if a charge is proved against a child, the police ma"'istrate or other officer adjudicating may n~t convict. It is a very de·irable provision to have in the original Act, and it shows the wisdom of those who passed that measure in 1907. But there is not the slightest doubt that where it can be avoided it is not advisable to commit a child to a reformatory, because, although the child may require reformation in my opinion the worst possible place t~ send him to get it is the alleged reformatory.

Imagine sending a healthy bo~· into a hospital for infectious diseases! Is it reason­able to expect that that boy, unless he is inocula tee! against those diseases, will not be contaminated? Of course he will· and the same thing applies to reformatory life. Very often subnormal boys-boys who are, perhaps. s0xual perverts-arc to be found in refo_rmatorics. Is it right that, for some trivJa! offence, a boy should ha vc the mis-

[Jlr. J!ullan.

fortune to be condemned to contamination from such boys?

The Hmm SECRETARY: \Vhat would you do with that boy-let him off?

Mr. MULLAN: No. Unless the offence is a very serious one and unless his parents arc very bad parents indeed, he would be better in their charge. I admit that some parents are incapable of looking after their chilclron; but parents ha\'O to be very bad parents indeed not to give them better training than they will get in the barrack life of the reformatory. I know that this matter is not provided for in the Bill, but the discussion may bear fruit. I hope that the men who will adjudicate in the children's courts will hesitate to commit to reforma­tories unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. Otherwise I have no adverse comment to make on the Bill, and I congratulate the Mini·ter on making a slight step forward in the reformation of the wayward children of the State.

Question-" That the Bill be now read a second time "-put and passed.

Consideration of the Bill in Committee made an Order of tho Day for to-morrow

HOLIDAYS ACT A:\lE?\Dl\lEXT BILL. Co:.r:\IIT'fill:E.

(Jir. Robrrts, East Toowoombu, in the clvzir.)

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 agreed to.

Mr. DASH (.1Iundingburra): I understood the :Minister, when moving the second read­ing of the Bill, to say that it was more a temporary than a permanent measure, and that, because of depression amongst other things, it was thought advisable to reduce the number of holidavs. In order to limit its operation to twoive months I beg to move the following amendment :-

" Insert the following new cl a use to follow clause 3:-

" 4. The arnondment,, made to the principal Act by this Act shall cease to apply and have effect from the fir,t dav of Januarv, one thousand nine hundred and th.irty-two; and to the intent that on and from such date the provisions of the principal Act shall apply and be in force, without the amendments as prescribed by this Aot."

I hope the :\iinister will accept the amend­ment. which prm·idcs that the Bi!l shall remain in operation for tho ~ame p(~riod of time that the public scrYants will, according to the Order in Council. be e':clmled from the operations of the Industrial Court.

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. ,J. C. Pctcrson, X ormrmby) : I exceedingly regret that I <:annat accept the amendment. for the reason that wo cannot fot·etell events for the next twelve months.

Mr. MVLLAN: The GoYernment could intro­duce another Bill to continue the operations of this Bill in the same way as the supor land tax is continued in operation by n1cans of a Bill annually inh·oduccd into Parliament.

'rhe HO:\IE SECRETARY: That is a different proposition altogether. It may be possible to fall in with the wishes of hon. rr;embPrs opposite in twelve months or two years' tin1e. l-Ion. members opposlto knov~ perfectly well that it gives a Minisbr no

Holidays Acts [2 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1367

[Jloasure to introduce a Bill to take away ·what might appear to be privileges, but stern necessitv demands that in .these times of depres,ion this action must be t'ken. The people are caller! upon to make sacrifices, and after all this Bill onlv means that the da vs mentioned shall not be overtime days. 'It must be borne in mind that holidays on Saints' days and other days are granted for a specific purpose, but in the majority of cas0s thev are not honoured bv those who enjoy those holidays in the manner for which they were granted.

:\Ir. PE.\SE: That does not matter.

The HOME SECRETARY: It doGs matter. "The holidays arc granted for a specific pur­rose. Tho unemplo,·cr! arc really called upon to pay for the holidays that are enjoyed by those in employment.

Mr. Bnc:cE: How do you figure that out?

The HOME SECRETARY: Th0so holi­day~ are a charg·o on industry to-day, and until we c~n right the affairs of the State I do not think it is fair that a section of the community should enjoy holidays that are not enjoyed by other sections of the corn­muniiy. If the financial clouds lift, it may be possible to restore these privileges that are now taken away for the time br;ing.

:Mr. PEASE (H crbcrt) : I am sorr,· that the Minister does not see his wav clear to accept the new clause, which has been moved consequent upon his remarks at an earlier shgE' of the Bill, that it was only a tcm­porarv mea sure. It has already been pointed out that the Government could follow the practice adopted in connection with the imposition of super land tax, and introduce anotlwr Bill next vear to continue the opera­tions of this Dill if circumstances demand it. The idea behind the amendment is that Par­liarncnt-shon1d f'xcrciRC' Rome control in con­nection with these and other m'1ttcrs. I would remind the Ministe'r that throughout the world to-da v thoro is a move to condemn Parliaments and to hold them up to ridicule. and the actions of the Government have ccrtainh· not tended to counteract that tcn­dpncy .. There is a gro\ving feeling amongst cxtrPmists on both sides in favour of the abolition of Parliaments. and it bohovcs the Government to thwart that desire at every turn. I would also remind the Minister that no ot'her Government in Australia has deprived ib; employees of holidays granted by Act of Parliament.

C\Tew Zealand has fifteen holidays for !'he public sen·ice as against nine in Queensland, and Sir Otto C\Tieme"·er points out the good position New Zealand occupies. That is not­withstanding the fact that New Zealand has ~ix more public holidays than Queensland. .1'\cw Zealand is not thinking of taking any of those holidays away. According to the TreasL!rcr's Budget, Sir Otto Kiemcyer is a great man: and, when he points out the sound position which }\'ew Zealand occupies, it certainly m ,\st be accepted as a fact that holidays do not affect the economic position. The argt!rrwnt of the Home Secretary must, therefore, be unsound. Parliament should have the right to say whether this Dill should be re-enacted or not.

The Ho~rE SECRETARY: You can have that rig hi.

i\Ir. PE~\ SE: The Government will not l!ivc us that right. \\'e understand that it io their intention to extend the life of Parlia· mcnt. If the Premier would deci-de to go tc1 the country at the right time, we would not ask for this amC'ndmcnt to be inserted. \Ye nrc against the Dill entirely. Vi'e do not npproYe of the Governrnent taking away holidays without the Indu>trial Court being first approached in the proper manner.

The PRE}!IER : The court did not put these holida vc into the Act. Parliament' inserted them.,

~Ir. PEASE: The Government have taken the public son-ants a way from the Industrial Court, but bank offici ds still have the power to approach the court.

The PRD!IER: Parliament put those holi­days in the Act; th0 Industrial Court did not give thcn1.

l\Ir. PEASE: \Vhv does the Premier not gin~ us the right to, re-enact this Dill? No othf'r Goyernn1ent in ~Australia or ~Tcw J;ea­land ha" done what this Go,-ernment is doing. I want to emphasise that. Evl'n the children in the gallery who listened to the debate at the initiation st tge of this Dill were alarmed ar t·hc action of the G m·crnment, and I was wondering "-hother they were coming down as a deputation to the PrC'mier, and saying. "For goodness' sake, don "t take the holidays away from us!" (Interjections.) The Scc­r0tary for Public Instruction cannot expect rhcrn to sin<s " God PaYe the King" when he is laking holidays away from them.

rflte SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION:

They come here as my guests.

:;\lr, PEASE : Did you bring them here so that thry might listen to you taking holidays a \qly frorn then1?

The SECRETARY ron PUBLIC IxsTRUCTIO:\ : Yes.

l\Ir. PE"\ SE: The argument that the pr·oplo did not observe the holidays for the purpose for which they were granted is no reason why the Government should abolish lhose clap; as public holidays. An individual celebrating St. Pntrick's Day can drown th<­shamrock nt one place just as well as at another. This is a reasonable amendment, and simply sr·,'ks to achieYe the enactment of this Bill for one year only.

('ucstion~" That the proposed new clause to foJlo,,· clause 3 Pfr. Dash's amendment) be agreed to "~put; and the Committee divided:-

Mr. Bedford Bow Brassington Bruce Conr0y rooper Dash Dunlop Foley Hanlon Hanson

AYES.J 22 .

:..1r. Tfynes Jones, A. Kirwan Mullan O'Keefe Pease Smith Stop ford "\Vr;:;lliug-ton WiL0n Winstan1eJ

Tellers : l\Ir. Bruce and M:-. Voley

ilir. Pea:;t.~

1368 Workers' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr.

ri~. Mr.

NOES, 36. AthQrton Barnes, W. H. Blackley Boyd Butler Carter Clayton Costello Deacon Duffy Edwards Fry Gri1nstone Hill Jan1ieson Kenny Kerwin King

l\'Irs. Longman ~lr. Maher

Maxwell l\foore M organ Nimmo Peterson Plunkett Russell, H. M. Russell, W. A. Sizer Swayne Tedman Tozer Walker, H. F. Walker, J. E. \Varren \Vienholt

Tellers : Mr. Boyd and Dr. Kerwin.

PAins. AYES. NOES.

Mr. Barber Pollock Bulcock

:VIr. Kerr Kelso Daniel Ann and Collins

Resolved in the negative. The House resumed.

The CHAIRMA:S reported the Bill without nmendment.

Third_ reading of the Bill made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

[7.30 p.m.]

WORKERS" HOMES ACTS AME:\D­::VIENT BILL.

Co:ulltrTTEE.

(Jir. Robcrts, East 1'oow0omba, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 9, both inclusive, agreed to. Clause 10-" Worker entitled to frrehold­

ing title under certain, f'ircurn.stanccs "-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. l\I. King. Lognn): I beg to move the follov.ing amendn1ent :-

" On page 7, line 28, omit the words­' one-tenth '

and insert the words­' ono-twentieth.' ''

Mr. \V. FoRGAX SMITH: You are mm·ing my amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: I said that I would give the matter con­sideration, and I have g·ivcn it consideration.

Mr. W. FORG_AN S:YIITH (2~fackrm): I am glad the 1\Inuster has agreed to put this amendment in the Bill. It 11·ould be an anon1aly to expoct a \Yorker 1.vhose net income does not exceed £260 to pay the capital value of the land in ten years. He may be able to do it in some circumstances, but it is fair and proper to provide that 5 per cent. shall be the deposit, and that he shall have twenty years in which to pay the capital value.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC "\VORKS: He will only have ten years in which to pay it.

Mr. W. FORGAX SJ\IITH: Are vou not g?ing to move a further amendment" to pro~ v1de for twenty annual instalments?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: No.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH , I understand that the a'!'endment provides for a 5 per cent. deposrt on the capital value of the land to bring it into conformity with the

[Hon. R. M. J(ing.

5 per cent. on the cost of the building. That is qnite all right, bnt there is the other point I wish to raise after this amendmet1t is dealt with. However, I am glad the Minister has seen fit to agree to this proposal.

Amendment (Mr. King) agreed to. Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH (Jiackay): I

beg to move the following amendment :­"On page 7, line 32, omit the word­

' ten' and insert in lieu thereof the word-

' hventv.' '' The object of the amendment is to give the applicant twenty years in which to pay off the capital value of the land. The chances are that most people will be able to pay it off in a less period of time. It is not a matter that will involve the Crown in any greater cost, and it will not canse the Crown to expend more money than is required at the present time, because the Act itself pro­vi des for the payment by the Crown of the capital value of the land. A piece of land for the purpose is alienated by the Crown, or the individual applicant selects a piece of land on which he desires to have a home built. That land is valued by the Crown; and, if the valne is regardod as suitable, then the Crown pays for it-it does now; so the Crown will not be called upon to find ariy additional money. Having regard to all the circumstances, and particularly to the fact that the class of applicant we are dealing with is on the lower scale of income, the :Yiinister might accept this amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Logan): I regret that I cannot see my way clear to accept the amend­ment. I do not think the owner of a v orker's home would be nnder any great disability in being asked to pay the value of the land in ten yearly instalments.

Mr. DASH: You have added 2 per cent. each ~·ear.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC \VORKS: This clause only d~als with the workers who have actually completed their purchases and "·ant to conYcrt the land into a freehold.

~lr. \V. FoRGA:-.r S~liTH: TheY can com-ert .. t any time under this Bill. "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC ·woRKS: I know they can, but this clause only deals with those who have completed their pur­chase'.

Mr. DASH: Where does it say that?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: It is in clame [13D] (1)--

" Am lessee of a perpetual lease under this Act who has fully performed the contract of sale for the purchase of a hon1e erected thoreon, and has dul;"t· corn­plied >c·ith the terms, provisions, condi­tions, and stipulations of such lease to the satisfaction of the Corporation, may gi,-e notice to the Corporation that he desires his lease to be deemed a lease of ten years, including a covenant entitling the lessee to a deed of gr:mt in fee­simple."

He has no insurance to pay unless he wants to do so, and he need not repair unless he desires to do so. He has completed the pur­chase and hi.' liability to the corporat-ion has ended, and it simply means that he 'has to pay ten equal yearly payments, and no one can say that the value of the land ;nil be

lVorkers' Homes Acts [2 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1369

very great. Po-sibly it may be .£100; and nobody will say that £10 .a year is too groat for him to pay, and, in addition, he will pay 5 per cent. interest on his yearly payments. I do not see anv great hard­ship in a case of that kind. I am sorry I cannot see my way to accept the amend­ment.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH (Jiackay): I regret that the ::\Iinister cannot sec his way clear to accept the amendment. This clause is a lengthy one, and deals with the right of an individual to convert from perpetual leasehold to freehold at any time during the currencv of the contract of sale The proposed new clause (13n) commences-

" From and after the coinmencenwnt of "The 'Vorkers' Homes Acts Amend­ment Act of 1930" the corporation may enter into a contract for the sale of a home to a purchaser who de·ircs that the lease of the land on which the home 1s erected shall be a lease including ,., covenant entitling the lessee to a deed of grant in foe-simple."

That deals with the covenant under which a purchas0r n1a~v exercise an option at any period during the currencv of the contract of sale. 'l~hat is to say," he can continue paying for his house under the · existing form of tenure; and, when he has his house paid off, he may exercise his option to transfer from one form of tenure to the other.

Then we come to the proposed new clause (13c)-

" Any purchaser who, after the com­mencement of ·'The vVorkors' Homes Acts Amendment Act of 1930," enters into a contract of sale for the purchase of a homo, but who subsequent to enter­ing into such contract <Jf sale desires that the lease of the land on which the home is 0rected shall include a covenant entitling the lessee to a deed of grant in fee-simple, n1ay 1nakc application to the corporation in tho prescribed form and the provisions of section 13A of thi~ Act shall, m11,tatis mutandis, apply and extend accordingly. together with such add1twns thereto or ame11clmcnts thereof os the GO\·ernor in Council mav by Order in CDuncil deem fit to make.''

So that the position is that. Dn the signing of the contract of sale by ·the corporation and the appllcant, the purchaser has the option of transferring from one form of tenure to another at any period during the contract of sale. Looking at it from a business point of view, a 1nan would bo ,-cry fo~lish to undcrt d{o the additional pay­ments 111 respect of the land during the period over which he was paying interest and redemption on the purchase of the home, because he obviously gets no advan­tage, but mcrc'ly mcroases his liabilitv to the Crown _for t_he time being. Having regard to his hm1ted resources that is not a sound proposition. N e.-e{·thclc8'<, the power to exercise the option exists at any t1mc.

He mav cle3ire to convert for a ,-uiety of reasonS, such as with a Yie\v to a sale. At present a man who ha·· a worker's home cannot transfer that home under a contract of sale to a purchaser un]e,s the purchaser is a person who himself is a qualified worker 1vithin the meaning of the 'Vorkers' Homes Act; but, after this Bill passes, a person may come to the purchaser of a home and t:ay, "If you can cornplete yuur purchase

and obtain a freehold title, I am prepared b buy the totality of your assets for a given amount." B;, this Bill the Minister i"") giving to a worker the right to obtain an in-;trument of title which he can sell, and in which under certain circumstances he may speculate. Under this clause he will have the right to convert. He can then pay off the purchase price of the land and the home and sell to anybody he likes. All the restrictions imposed in the principal Act disappear on the termination of the contract oi sale. That is to say, it is at the will of the applicant or purchaser to pay off the total indebtedness at any time, and under this clause he will have the right to exercise his option to purchase the freehold. My arnendrnent is designed to giye hirn bvenb:­:vears in which to pay for that freehold instead of ten years as provided in the Bill.

I ha.-e been stating the case of an indi­vidual who may be the owner of an existing "orkcr's home. Now let me state the case of a ne\\- applicant under this no\\ Act. If my amendment is carried, this position C'an arise.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC 'VORKS: That case would ' ot be dealt with under this clause.

:Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH : It could be dealt with undcc the new Act. I take it that, after the passing of this Bill, a worker v.ho will be qualified under the law will be entitled to decide whether he will have the perpetual leasehold tenure or the freehold tenure. If an applicant decides for the free­hold tenure and the States purchases the land, why should there be any necessity to transfer that land to the Secretary for Public Works representing the corporation and then a perpetual lease be issued uncle{· the principal Act with the option of pur­chase at a later elate? Why should a man not be given the opportunity of purchasing from the beginning, if he is prepared to do that? \Vhy should he not be allowed twentv years in which to purchase the land as well as twenty-five years in which to purchase the house?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is against the principle of the Bill right through.

:.\Ir. W. FORGAN SMITH: It is against the principle of the principal Act; but the Minister i,g now introducing a new principle altogether. Did I understand the M mister to say that he does not intend the option to be exorcised until the expirv -0£ the contract of sale either by payment over the full period or by payment of the total indebtedness in a lump sum? A man may qualify under this Bill, and he may inherit money, or, during some period of his life he may receive the proceeds of an endow­n ent assurance policy that has matured. Ho may decide to use that money to pay off the capital indebtedness on his home, and so sa ye the payment of interest over a period of years. He has that right under the prin­cipal Act, and he will have that right under this Bill after the contract of sale has been entered into, unless I have misread the clause. He will have the option of transfer­ring from one tenure to another at an:y period he desires. If it is a desirable thing to give him an option, then he should be allowed to exercise it at any period that he desires.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WoRKS: There is nothing to prevent him doing that; that is the purpose of the Bill.

Mr. Smith.]

1370 TVorlcers' Homes Acts [ASSE1iBLY.J Am .nrlmcnt Bill.

Mr. \V. FORGAN SMITH : That is nF argument.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \Von··s: Pro­vided there is a balance owing to the depart­ment for the purchase of the home.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH: He can do that at any time, if there is anv balance owing. -

The SEORE1'ARY FOR PuBLIC \VoRKS : Of course he can.

Mr. Yv'. FORGAN SMITH: At tho ec.tmo time he can f'XCrcise his right under thi Bill to transfer to another title during the currency of the contract of sale?

The SECRE1'ARY FOR l'UBLIC \VORKS : I do not quite follow the hon. member. I will explain the whole position in a moment.

Mr. W. FORGAN SYIITH: My point is that the individual should have the right from the beg-inning to convert at any period that he is in the financial position to do so.

The . SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS : Ho will have that right.

Mr. W. FORGAN SMITH : Consider tho case of a new applicant who enters into a contract of sale to purchase a home ov<'r a period of twenty-fi-ve years. He should have the right to choose the freehold. if he so d0sires, and obtain twenty years' terms of purchase.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Logan): I am afmid the Leader of the Opposition has not quite grasped the situation. The Bill deals with two phases. First of all, it deals with the case of the person who has a worker's home and is under liability to complete his pay­ments over a period of years. He can exorcise his right or his option to convert, the capital value of the land being added to the balance owing in respect of the home and payable with 5 per cent. interest over a period of years. This is the case of a man who has a worker's home at the present time.

Mr. "\V. FORGAN SMITH: "\Vhat is the posi­tion of a new applicant?

The SECRETARY FOR PTJBLICWORKS: A new applicant makes application in the ordinary way. He might say, " I am ap;Jly­ing for a \Yorker's hon1e under the tenns URUally ,existing. I want to e~-cercise rny option of purcbase straight a'\va:v.'' lie can do that, and the price of the land is added to the pu1·chase money, which is extoncl0d over a pc·riocl of twenty-flve years. That is the provision in the principal .\et at the present tirno. This clause only deals with the pnrchnse,r of a worker's home \Vho ha"' completed the contract and who o,c;cs noth­ing to the department. That person says. " I haYP a worker's home; it is a pt>rpctual leasehold tPnuro. I have completed my con­tract and I want to take advantage of the new Act and convert my perpetual leasehold tenure into a freehold tenure." Ho can do that under this clause, and he is given ten years to do it in. '

Mr. W. FoRGAN S:mrn: :\'ow deal \Yit!J the man who is a new applicant.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC WORKf1: I have just dealt with that individual. He applies for a worker's homo in the ordinarY way. He has twenty-five years in which to pay off the home. The original la,., still holds good with respect to him.

[Jh. Smith.

Mr. \V .. FORGAN SMITH: That i in re ;poet of the person who desires to purchase a house?

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC WORKS: Y c.:-. ..:\ person acquiring a "\-Vorkcr's horn2 has twenty-five years to pay, and if. after a period of five years, he sa:·s, " I dcsi·re to conn,rt my perpetual leasehold tcnm·c to a fro<• hold tenure," he has got the balance of his lcrm in which to complete thot purchasl' -that is to say, t\Yenty-five years. Tho clause we are dealing ,vith 110\V is the rJ.sc of a purchaser of a \vorker's borne who has con1-p]otcd his contract of sale. He has no lia­bilitv whatever to the \Vorkcrs' Homes Dcp;lrtmcnt except as to his rent, which he has to pay annually. This clause gives that man the right to convert to a froe'wld tenure, and he has ten years to do it in.

Mr. HYXES: During the period he is pur­chasing the land, will the land be subject lo reapprais~mcnt?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I supp'ose it will, but I am not concerned about that.

:V1r. IlYNES: The terms of conversion inc·lude ten annual payments?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \'\'ORKS: Yes.

Mr. HYNES: That seems to conflict with 1 he other cliluse.

'rho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is not w, bceausc at the pres nt time the price is fixed, but when a purchaser of a 'vorker's home desires to convert his per­petual leasehold to a freehold tenure the purchase price will he the ca]Jital price at which the land >vas taken up. A later amendment ,,-ill deal with that. I am t·r~-­ing- to Pxplain to the Committee that there arP bYo ~cts of circurnstanccs. One is thP pc'rson '\Yho is continuing h1s purrhas; pay­l!lCnis and has not con1pletPd his purchase. Th.lt 1nan has the rjght to convert at any time within the balance of his term, and the Lalunce of the cost is distributed over thtc balance of the term. The other case is that of the man who has completed his payments. He has ten yrars in which to com·ert. It is no hardshin. herausc he has so nrany lr"':l ]JUyments t~ make.

Mr. DASH (Jfnndingburra): I under­s'. nd wh~t the ?viinister sa~·s in regard to new applicant·. Under this Bill the owner of a hou:sc :d1o ho.s paid of his indc·btednes on acconnt of his hon1c ar.~rl who desires to ccnvcrt his l.and from perpetual leasehold to freehold n1ust gi,7 c notire \vithin six months of the pas"ing of this measure.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIO \VORKS: That i;;; a ycry elastic provision.

.\Ir. DASH: It is too much to saddle that Jllan with the 1oayrnent of 10 per cent. of the <lcpo ... it~-

Thc SECi<ET.\RY FOil l'UBLIC \VORKS: Five per cent.

:Mr. D .. \SH: And ask him to pay off the balrrncc in ten vcarlv instalments. not for­getting· the addition~! 2 per cent. interest ''hi eh h0 will be called upon to pay. That i.< particularly hard in view of the xeduced ,, ctg"c' that arc being pnid to-day, and con­eic',,·ing also the many deductions from the low .,;ages that are paid.·

TVorkers' Homes Acts [2 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1371

The SLCRET.iRY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: You lose sight of the fact that the man has no redemption payments to make in respect of his house.

:\fr. DASH: But to discharge the liability in respect of his house may have entailed mortgaging· a life assura nee policy or making •;ome othPr special effort to redeem the liability on the house.- At the very least, twcnt:c' ,·ears should be provided in which to pay off the balance duo on the land. In most cases the value of the land would be £100, and twenty imtalments of, say. £5 per cnnum, at 5 per cont. interest, would be as much as the average man would be able to pay.

The SECUETARY FOR PUBLIC WoRKS: The annual instalments in ro9.pect of the land would not be anythin rs like the redemption payments in respect of the house property.

:Bh. D"\SH: If it is a fair thing to give a new applicant twenty-five years in which to discl1arge his liability, then there can be nothing wrong with giYing the person who has his house paid off and who wants to con­nrt the land from perpetual leasehold to freehold at least' twenty years in which to red~cm the liability. I hope the Minister will sec the reasonableness of the amendment.

l\Ir. FOLEY (Lrichhardt) : If the Minister had to live on the low rate of wages payable to the a vera go worker to-day, he would realise how necessary it" is that even the person who has been lucky enough to pay off a >Yorker's home should get the same terms as arc gi,-en to other persons under this legislation. In m.v own electorate, and in many of the other pastoral districts in the State, persons ha Ye taken up ,,·orkcrs' homes. lVI.an? of these persons are follm'Cing pastoral work of one kind or another: and at the present time they an~ in a position of being exempted from Industrial Court awardo, so that they have to make their own terms with their employers, in consequence of which their 1-""ag"es are very low. and, in any c.ase, their employment is onlv intermittent. _\fter three or four months' work they are displaced for a time. and there is very little oppor­tunity of their securing any other employ­ment in the present state of the cmplovment market. -

[8 p.m.]

It must be remembered that. when thev do get work. they will be forced to pa v unemployment relief ·tax and unemplovme1;t insurance from their reduced wn g-es.' and. in addition. >Ye have foreshadowed in thc Financial Statement a reduction in the income tax e,;:emption. Under those condi­tions. ,yhat chance v.-ill the aYerage working man have of making up leewe,y after once get­ting a sdhack J·hrough being out of work for se>·e>·al months? I do not think the Minister would be giving too great a concession to these men in accepting the amendment.

What I ha,-e said in regard to pasto1·al workers applies to evel'y labourer through­out Queensland. Take, for instance. the miners at Blair Athol. A few years ago that was a prosperous mining district, but to-day those miners arc subsisting on one day's work a week. ·what chance can those men who have workers' homes-as manv Df them have-of making up the leeway? '

Then take the case of the foresters in the Clermont district. In the good times when

Labour was in power. under an agreement with the Forestry Department, these men were receiving a much higher rate of pay than they are receiving to-day. At that time they wore paid 4s. lOd. a block for Eleepcrs, >vhile to-day they have to smml~· ihe same sleeper for 3s. 7d., although the'' have to go further into the forest and go to further expense in getting it. That moans a greater reduction in their wages than the reduction recently granted in the basic wage by the Industrial Court. If the Minister only realised what some of the lower-paid vvorkf'rs are suffering to-day. and flrc 1ikeb~ to suffer for some time, he would accept the nrncnrln1cnt nnd gjve those f0w ·who haye a1ready paid for their \Vorkrrs' hon10s twcnt~-­"I"Cars terms. if thev so desire. in Yvhich to convert' their lr"seholds into frocholds.

Mr. HYXES (Townst•il/r): I desire to eupport the amendment. It will -be difficu]( for the JYfinistcr to discriminate between the person who has already carried out the whole of the conditions of his contract and has completed the purchase of his home and the person who iq just about to acquire a worker's home. It appears to me that the Go\-ernn1ent are going to penalise the man who has completed his contract.. I agree with the opinion that has been gr·wrally expressed by hon. members on this .. ide that; the alienation of Crown land is basically "Tong; but I do say that the owners of per­petual 1, J.seholds on w·hich workers' homes nrA erected should be enabled to participate in tha general " hand-out " of public money to the same extent as the owners of per­petual leaseholds used for productive pur­post.-".

I belieYo that, unless the amendment is ncl'eptecl, it is going to inflict a hardship on the man who has already paid for his home. For instance, a large r1,umber of people 'vho hrr,-; prcriouslv had permanent employment mav to-day find ih,_mselves in casual cmplo:.·­mcnt, and very ofttn are out of work alto­gether. \Yhen a man entered into a contract to build a worker's home, it was built on a piece of land which was asshsed at the vuluc of £100; and to-day, owing to roads b,·in(i built and other municipal improvf)­mcnts. the value of the land has been t r!lwnced to £150. That means a difference between the original price of £100 and the realisable value to-clay of £150. so that there is an unearned increment of £50, which the Co,-er·nmcnt Partv offered to the owner on tlw hustings as ~ sop for his support at tlw last general election. He wao given t" undorshnd that he would be able to procure a freehold of his worker's homes I lSe at the original value of the lease. In orr1er to carrv out the strict letter of that r.romise, the i\iinister should provide facili­ties >Yhoreh.v the whole of the purchasers of \mrker~' homes. including those who haTe already completed their conditions of pur­clwsc of their homes, should bo able to participate in the " hand-out " bv the Government. There is being given to the ownn., of those leases something to which they originally v:ore not entitled-that is, the unearned increment. \Ve arc fixing the price which will ultimately be the c1pital >aluc of the original price. In arriYing at the rent to bo paid for perpetual leaseholds it vcas understood that the Government would ''ecoup themsdves for the enhanced value, and that the unearned increment. insteac! of going into the pockets of the

M1·. Hynes.]

Workas' Homes Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendmmt Bill.

]p"ces, would revert to the Crown, and that these leaseholds, in common with other lease­holds would be subject to reappraisement overy' fifteen years; so that for a piece of land which has improved in value by 100 per cent, during the fifteen years, instead of getting the £3 per annum rent which was paid for the first fifteen years, the Crown would be getting £6 per annum for the second period of fifteen years. That unearned increment is going to be offered to the holders of perpetual leaseholds. That was a sop of something for nothing which was offered by the Government Party at the last election. In order to give full effect to the promise. the Minister should make the terms more gcnerolls £or the person who has already completed the purchase of his home.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Logan): It is rather extraordinary to hear the views expressed by the hon. member for Townsville. He set out by saying that it is basically wrong, and then said that the workers should get easier terms so that thev can obtain a freehold. ·

Mr. HYKES: They should get some p ,rt of what is being handed out.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: The hon. m0mber wants us to give them something which he objects to, as he says it is basically wrong.

Mr. HY))ES: I say it is basically wrong; but it is an advantage to the lessee, and he shoul·d participate in the "hand-out ., by the GoYernment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WOHKS: There is no cornpulsion on anybody to con­Ycrt his leasehold into freehold. It is pureh at his option to do so if he desires. If he' wants a freehold, he has a chance of getting it; and I do not think that .any owner of a worker's hom<c is going to saddle himself with a liabilib- which he cannot fulfil bv exercising an option to convert "'·hen he knows that he cannot complete it.

Mr. \V. FoRGAX s~nTH: From a busin::ss point of Yiew the only advantflge he could get is in the event of ,,]e.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: That may be. If there are any advantagE's, I want the workers to get them. \Ve all desire the workers to get any ach-antages that arc accruing. The Bill is giving the option to the worker to get the arlvantage of the tenure, if it is possible to do so.

:\fr. \Y. FoRGAK s~!JTH: In other words. you argue that the owner of the land should get the unearned increment?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I have no hesitation in saying that I believe i,, that pt·inciple. The hon. member does rwt, I kno\V.

-:\lr. IV. FoRG.\X S:mTH: That is tho point -vou believe in the unearned i~:crcmcnt go.ing to the indiYidual.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I believe in the individufl] who, as a member of a C'omrnunity, -whirh brings about an increase in value. getting that increase to which he is entitled as a member of the community.

Question-" That· the word proposed to be omitted from clause 10 (Jh·. Smith's a~ound-

[lJir. Hynes,

mrnt) stand part of the clause "-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 33. Mr. Atherton

Barnes, G. P. Barnes, W. H. Blackley Boyd Butler Carter Clayton Duffy Dunlop Edwards Fry Grimstone Hill Jamieson

., Kenny Dr. Kerwin

Mr. King Mrs. Longn1an Mr. Maher

Maxwell M on re Nim1no Peterson Plunkett Russell, H. M. Russell, W. A. Swayne Tedman Tozer Walker, H. F. Warren Wienholt

Tellers: Mr. Dunlop and Mr. Wienholt,

NoEs, 20. Mr. Bedford

Bow Mr. Hynes

Braesington Bruce Con ray Cooper Dash

J0nes, A. K.irwan l\1ullan O'Keefe Pease Smith Stopford \Vilson

., \Vinstanley

Foley Hanlon Hanson Tellers: Mr. Bedford and Mr. Ilow.

PAIRS. AYES. NOES.

Mr. Kerr Mr. Ilarher Kelso Pollock Daniel Bulcod< Annand Collins

Resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. KE='INY (Cook): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On page 8, after line 4, insert the following:-

' [IJF] (1) Notwithstanding anything contained in sections 13A, 13B, 13c, and 13D to the contrary. if any purchas?r, at the same time r.s he lodges the notiCe as prescribed by the said section, produces evidence that the ex1stmg capital value of the land is greater than the present unimproved value of the land, he may at that time make application to the corporation on the prescribed form for a review of such .-alue. .

(2?.) Such evidence shall be in the form of a statutorv declaration or an affidavit. setting out fully the facts on which the purchaser relies to support his contention that the existing capital Yalue of the land is too high.

(J) No applicatio'.'- for review shall be considered that 1s not aceompamed bv evidence as aforesaid.

. (4.) The corporation shall determine the unim pro.-ed value of the land as at the date of the applice1tion for review of such value, or the corpora­tion may in its discretion refer the application to the Land Court consti­tuted undcn- " The Land Acts, 1910 to 1929," \vith .a request that the unim­proved value of the land referred to be determined.

(5) The corporation or the court (as the case may be) shall thereupon deter­mine the unimproved Yaluc of the land as at the date of the application for review of such value. In such deter­mination the corporation or the court

Workers' Homes Acts [2 OCTOBER.) Amendment Bill. 1373

{as the case may be) shall have regard to the unimproved value of land of similar quality in the neighbourhood, and mav determine the value at the same am"ount as the present capital.value of the land, or at any amount higher or lower than such capital value.

(G) The value as so determined shall become the capital value of the land, and any necessary adjustment i!l regard to the amount paid as depos1t

shall forthwith be made; moreover, any necessary adjustments, amend­ments, or alterations in any contract of sale, or lease, or other document may be made and given effect to accordingly, and the same shall be valid and effectual for all purposce.

[13G.] It is hereby declared that, for the purposes of this Ad, the corpora­tion with the approval of the Governor in Council shall have power and autho­rity to cause any deed of grant in fee-simple to issue in any case where such issue is noce' "ary to give effect to the provisionq of this Act, and all the pov. ers and authorities which are or ma:. be deemed necessary to give full effect to such issue arc hereby con­ferred and authorised accordingly.' "

I do not think there is any necessity to deal at length with this amendment, which is in accordance w-ith the principles con­tained in the land laws of the State which enable a \Yorker to appeal against the valu­ation of his land. In the past a number of workers purchased homp<;j anticipating that the land upon which those homos were constructed would appreciate in value, and that the localities would progress. Circum­stances have changed, and it is no"· realised that in many places the land is not worth the value placed upon it. I submit that the amendment should be accept0d, so that the owners of those homes who purchased on the basis I have outlined will have an opportunity of appealing against the valua­tions with a view to a reduction. I am sure that the amendment will meet with the unqualified approval of hon. member" on both sides.

Mr. \Y. FORGAN SMITH (Jiackay): I desire to move the following amendment:­

"After subclause (4) in the amend· ment just proposed inoert the following proviso:-

'Provided that in any case in which the corporation shall not refer the applicant for redetermination of the unimproved value of the land con­cerned the appli·cant may apply direct to the Land Court and shall give notice to tho corporation accord­ingly.'"

The principle contained in the amendment is quite all right. It "·as argued at an ea-rlier stage of the Bill that anything con­tained in " The Land Acts Amendment Act of 1929" :.houlcl applv \vith <'qual force to applintions for conversion under this Bill. Under the Land Acts Amendment Act passed la c "'ssion JWOvision was made to convert fron1 one tcnuro to another. and the individual desiring b convert could apply direct to the Land Court for a re' aluation of the land. The amendment mov,:d by the hon. m cm ber for Cook does not do that in its entirety. It provides that application shall be made to the corporation. The cor­poration may determine the application

it,, elf, or it may refer the ap]Jlication to the Land Court. Thiy amendment gi\·es autho­rity to the Minister at any time on the application of the applicant to review the unimproved value of the land. If the cor­poration arbitrarily dotennines the value itself, and its decision does not meet with the appro\ a! of the applicant, then under my amendment, if he so desires, he will have the right to move the Land Court, which is the proper tribunal to determine such an application.

The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. ::\II. King, Lo(Jan) : I do not agree with the contention of the Leader of tlw Opposition that the conditions of "The Land Acts Amendment Act of 1929" and the con­ditions of the land affected by the pre<ent Bill_ arc similar, but at the same time I sec no grave objection to the amendment.

Mr. \Y. FORGA~ S}IITH: The pm. er should be ther~ whether applicants exercise it or not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: \Yorkcrs' honws aro generall'~ erected in a community where the value o'f the land can­not very well be questioned. The area of the land on which a worker's home is erected i> not a vast one. Generally it is a small allot,nent, so the qucction of valuation is not a vel'} grave matter. There is not a great deal of opening for a dispute arising. Gnder the circumstances, and with that s-.,-eet spirit of reasonableness with which I admit l am endowed, I am only too glad to accept suggestions from both sides of the Committee.

Amendment Amendment

agreod to. Clause 10. as

Clauses 11 to

(.vir. Smith) agreed to.

(Jir. IlennzJJ, as amended,

a1ncnded, agreed to.

15, both inclusive, agreed to. Clause 16-" ;lmendment of section 20-

A.brmdoned home"-

lVlr. W. FORGAN SMITH (.liackay): This clause deals with the case where the Crown, as mortgagee, is in possession and gives authority to the Minister to dispose of the property in any way that he so desires, whether the applicant be a worker within the meaning of the Act or not. This is a matter that is open to some debate. The clause is provided, I take it, with a view to the Crown recovering the amount of mone3 which has been advanced for build­ing a home in the event of the borrower defaulting. I understand there arc a num­ber of vacant workers' horncs in Brisbane for sale, these homes, no doubt, having been vacated by persons who were unable to meet their commitments. That position i- l.ikely to be accentuated by the low-wage policy of the Government. To a great cxtont this clause is defeating the purpose of the Act, which was passed to provide homes for ·workers who, under norn1al conditions, would not be able to obtain them. Under bln~ clause, however, the Crown may sell a home under such terms and conditions as may appear from time to time to be suit­able. The department under these ciroum­•tances need not be guided b!- the principles IJf the Act either with regard to the rate of interest payable or the term of the loan; in other words, the corporation, which in I his case is the Minister, is authorised to sell thll house in any manner thought fit. Unless there is some very good reason for i,his c!ausP, I think it is one which is

Mr. Smith.]

1374 TVorkers' HomM Acts [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Amendment Bill.

Jangerous in the extreme and one which •hould not be accepted.

The SECRET~~RY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Logan): The object of !he clause is to prevent a number of workers' homes becoming a charge upon the depart­ment. If through force of circumstances the department has to take possession of a worker's home and is unable to dispose of it, then it becomes a charge on the funds of the State. This clause will permit a wider field of competition, and provide a better prosped for the sale of any such. properties. [t is far better for the corporation to have this power, which will not on)y enable. the department to get nd of surpms dwellmgs, but will enable the tenant who has had to t-elinquish his home to receive any ?~lance of proceeds available after the lwbihty to the department has been discharged.. All the department looks for IS to be repaid the balance owing; so this clause will em1ble the 1nortgagor. who is the original owner of the houoc, to g·et something out of the \Heck.

Clause 16 agreed to. Clause 17-" "1 m end m cnt of s1ct ion 22-

Rcmcdi(s of the ,fl.Iinistcr"~agreed to.

[8.30 p.m.] Clau-e 18--".-tmcndment of section 23-Bad

1Hiyhl)uurship ''-

::\Ir. '\Y. FORGA='-1 S11ITH (JfrrcZ-~y): Tllc latter part of this clause is similar to clause 16. I understand from the :i\[inister that the Crown must have some l'l'Ii>Odv. \\'hen a home cameo back into the ro· -c·.sion of the corporation. the amount of n10ncv nd,~anc-:d bv the Cro\vn n1ust be secured in some sha'pe or form. 1\1:.- objec­tirm is that thoro is a danger of these homes coming into the hands of speculators and others for speculati \'C purposes. But this clause ,Joes more than that. The first por­tion of the clause is much more objection­able, as it gives po\ver to the Governor in Council to amr•nd the law in anv manner cl, sired to give effect to their desi-res und<>r· this clause. Section 23 of the principal Act deaLs with certain conditions that mav arise nnclPr the contract of sale; but the 'Minister ha' alre~dv provided for an amendment of those conditions to enable him to sell the home of a defaulter and recover the amount th:!t is owing to the Crown. To that very little objection can be offered; but I do object to giving autbority to the :\Iinister or lo the Governor in Council to legislate in any manner they may desire without refer­ence to Parliament. This is another instance n! the usurpation of the authority of Parlia­ment bv the Executive of the da-:. It i' snmethii:tg that has been denounced in no unrnea;;;urcd terms bv no less an authoritv than Lord Hewart, "Lord Chief Justice o'f England. It has been referred to in the prer' of Que"n~la nd on quite .a nurnbcr of occa­sions, and a barrister like Mr. Ross l'hilp has lec-tured to the Constitutional Club on \vhat he calls " Tho "'\ ew Despotism." The ::\foore­Barnes Government are rc·.,ching out afte1· power and authoritY in countless different ways which mean the usurpation of authoritv that properly belongs to Parliament. Tha't i-: a principle that I am not prepared to as- ent to. I am not prepared in this clause to give the Minister authority to amend the la_w. I have no objection to authority being g1_ven to .effect a sale, but I do object. and will contmue to object as long as I remain a member of Parliament, to anything being

[1lfr. Smith.

tionP that divests Parliament of ics proper 2 nthority and -places that authoritv in the h1ncls of the Cabinet. It is a principle upon .,-hose maintenance the liberties of the people and the Constitution depend.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Logan): The Leader of the Opposition is objecting to a practice ·- hich was frequently followed by his own Governrncnt. I say emphatically that I do not agree with government by Order in Council. I an1 candid enough to say ~;;or and I am not going to take up any hypo­critical attitude in this respect. I therefore ,,o,·e the following amendment:-

" On page 9, lines 29 to 32, after the word-

' n1ay'

omit the word"-' with such amendments or modifica­tions thereof or additions thereto a the Gm-ernor in Council may by Order in Council so prescribe.' "

'I'Iw clause will then read-" ':!_lhe proYisions of this section may

apply and extend in any case where the home concerned is erected on land in respe·ct of which the les•ce includes a covenant entitling the lessee to a deed of grant in fee-Pimple or on land under a freehold tenure."

That is i a king a\vay the objection which has been raised by the Leader of the Opposition, and an objection with which I agree.

:\Jr. W. FORGAK SIIIITH (Jlackay): I mpport the amendment moved by the Minis­ter. \vho. I am glad to know, agrees with me that the Govcrtwr in Council should not t'Xercise the authority of the Legislature. It is a wry pleasing thing to note that the Deputy Premier is taking this action, and I bope the principle ,-ill be maintaine-d and ea nied out in all other Bills introduced.

OPPOSITION ::YIE:UB£RS : Hear hear !

Amendment (Jlr. King) agreed to. Clause 18, as amended, agreed to. Clause 19-" Amcml-ment of section 25-

Pon·r't to ltt pcndinrt zJurchase"-agreed to.

Clause 20-" Rci:JSU' by corporation of d; eds in respect of land sun·cnd, reel tr> Crozt•n''-agreed to.

:.\lr. \Y. FORG.\N SMITH (Jlack,,y): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On page 10, after line 16, insert the following new clause: -

'From and after the commencement of "The i'Vorkers' Homos Acts Amend­ment Act of 1930," and notwithstanding any Act to the contrary-

(a) All moneys received in pay­ment for land sold under the autho­rity of " 'I'ho iVorkers' Homes Acts, 1919 to 1930," in regard to which land, upon payment of the purchase moneys thcrefor, the purchaser shall be enti!led to a deed of grant in fee­simple; and

(b) All mor:eys received in payment bv wav of instalments or otherwise i,;_ resp'cct of land which has, pursuant to such Acts, been converted into a lease entitling the purchaser to a deed of grant in fee-simple; and

(c) All moneys which hereafter may be received in payment by way of

TVorkers' Homes Acts [2 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1375

instalments or otherwise in respect of land which. pursuant to such Acts, mav be held 'under a lease entitling the' holcler of a deed of grant in fee­~imple;

shall not be paid into the Consolidated Rcn•nue Fund. but shall be diverted from such fund and shall be applied in al!d towards the reduction of the public debt of the State of Queensland; and any powers and authority considered necessary or expedient \YhPreby any sp<'cial fund shall be created to give cffPct to the provisions of thi, section are hereby approved. and authorised accordingly.' "

The ohjcct of the amendment is clear and . dPfinitc. The sale of land is a dissipation of the public estate. That means the sale of the r~pital of the State. Therefore, the moneys accruing therefrom should not be regarded as revenue in the ordinary sense of tbc term, but should be paid towards the n·duction of the national dtobt. The sccuritv of a country for any loan proposals which 1nny be put forward is the econon1ic resources of the land pll!s the industry of the people inhabiting the country. If that land is going to be divested fr01n the Crown and s.1lrl to private individuals, it follows that i be State is disposing of its rapital to private individuals; and the proceeds of that sale f.hou1d not hD regarded as rcycnuc from an accountancy point of Yiew, but should be paid to capital account and used in the reduction a: the national debt. That should apply to all land sales. It is a sound principle, and cnc that cannot be scrious1y argued against.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. R. M. King, Louan) : If the Leader of the Opposition had any premises on which t<> build an argument, there might be somc­t hing in -what he said; bnt his argunwnts nndcr the circuiH"tances arc nonsf'nsical. He assumes that the proceeds of these sales \Yill go into the consolidated revenue. They will not do anything of the kind. The monev is taken out of trust funds and goes back 'to trust funds.

:\Ir. vY. FORGA' Si\JITH: Did YOU not hear the Treasurer admit in his Financial State­ment that he had transferred £100,000 from trust funds to reyenue?

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That may be, but they are still trust funds. I cannot accept the amendment.

::Ylr. W. FORGA)J SMITH (Jlarkuy): The ::\linist?r cannot argue against the prcmiso on wh1ch I based my arncnclment, which is that the land is the national inheritance. It is the basis of all wealth. All wealth must come from the land. Human effort applied to the land is the basis of eYcry form of wealth in this or any other country. Consequently, the selling of land to a private individual is a divesting from the nation of ''Orne of its property, and handing it oyer h the pri• ate individual. Tho priyate individual may pay for it. \Vh0ther he gets it unci 'r tho Land Acts or under this Act, he is cetl!cd upon to pay for it. It is a sale of ea pital, and the proceeds should not be paid to re,·enue at all but to capital, with a view to reducing thr national debt.

T'hc Minister talks about trust funds. but his colleag-ue the Treasurer delivered a Financial Statement to-day in whic-h he said that last vcar there wa.s a transfn of £100,000 h:om Trust Fund Account to Revenue Account.

Trw SECRET;,Ry FOR PrBLIC vVoRKS: And the Revenue Account is liable.

:\Ir. \YIE"\HOLT (Fassifern): It seems to t1:0 that under this amendment it is possible fur the question to arise as to whether the l .nd inYolvcd \vas originally Government propcrt.v or whc-thcr it was bought from son1ebody else.

Mr. TA'. FORGAX S:wrTH: In about half of the casr•s it has been bought.

:\fr. WIE)JHOLT: If it has boon bought, Hell the proceeds \1 ;ll go back to trust funds; but if not, then the monev could urc properly be diverted. to rcyenlle. It ~, <~ms to rnc thcr>' is 110 dangcl' jn the o11e

case, but if, as th" Leader of the Opposition says. S8-Il1C of it vvas GoYernn1ent land in th;, first plaec--

}Ir. \V. FoRGA,- S~1I1'H: About half was GoYcrnment hnd in the first place.

Mr. \YIE:.JHOLT: If it was Government land in the first place, the proceeds of the sale should mo~t ce-rtainly go to reduce tho Hatinnal debt. If the G·overumcnt decide to balance their Budget-particularly, if t!10y ha\·e signPd an a;;reon1cnt to that effect-they sbould take nothing into their revcnnc ac,;ount that should be paid to capital account. It would be like a woman \\ho had been told by her husband that she rnust keep her housekeeping accDunts Rquaro for a fortnight, and who tells him that she has done m, but: does not tell him that she has Fold a gramophone and a f(~W pots and pans and a nev; pair of his trousers t'o n;, ke up a dcfici,~ncy. (Laughter.) I there­fore think that. in considering the point rai•ed b,, the Leader of the Oppvsition, we should be very careful to place it beyond doubt that thes(' funds should not impro­perly go into Revenue Account.

Question-" That the proposed new clause to follow clause 20 (Mr. Smith's amendment) he> agreed to--put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 21. :VIr. Bedford

Bragsington Bruce Conroy Cooper Dash Dunlop Foley Hanlon Hanson Hynea

Mr. Jones, A. Kirwan Mull an O'Kecfe PErrse Smith Stopford \Vi en halt Wilson '\Vin,tanley

Tellers : l\fr. Brassington and Mr. Conroy.

Dr.

~fr.

:'>JOES, 31. Athc·rton Barnes, G. P. Bnrnes, "'V'{. H. Blackley Boyd Butler c-u·ter Clayton Duffy Edwards Fry Grimstone Hill .Tamie:mn Kenny Kerwin

Mr. King Airs. T.ongman :vrr. ~·racgroarty

Maher l\1axwell Moo re Nin1n1o Peter -'-On Plunk et! nu~sell, H. 1v1. Swayne Tedman Tozer ·walker, H. F. Warren

Tellers : Yfr. Hill and Mrs. Longman. PAIRS.

AYES. NOES. Barber Mr. T{Prr Pollock Kelso Bulcock Daniel Coli in'

" An nand

Resolved m the negative.

Mr. Wienholt.]

13/G Navigation Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Clause 21-" Regulatiom·"-agreed to. Clause 22-" A rnendrnent of section 21-

R,·gulations "-agreed to. Schedule agreed to. The House resumed. The CHAIRiiiAN reported thr Bill vvith

amendments. Third reading of the Bill made an Order

of the Day for Tuesday next.

NAVIGATION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

ciECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

Mr. COOPER (Breme~) : I desire to thank the Treasurer for his goodness in allowing the debate on this measure to be adjourned. It gave us an opportunity to look at the Bill and to see th,d the hon. gentleman's little vessel was well equipped in order that it might smoothly enter into the harbour to which he desired to take it.

Of all legislation that has come before Parliament there has been nothing more contentious and nothing that has caused greater heartburnings, than legislation regarding navigation. One naturally looks at any measure, particularly a measure relat­ing to navigation matters, with an eye to finding out what is hidden in it, or what mav be the turbulent matters within it. I find nothing in this measure to justify any of the scenes enacted in the various Parlia­ments when matters of navigation have been considered. There was the notable instance of Samuel Plimsoll, who spent much of his life and parliamentary career in endeavour­ing to amend the law relating to navigation so that unseaworthy ships trading so fre­quently on the ocean might be eliminated, and, when he went so far as to characterise the Gov-ernment of 'the day as villains, he got into hot water. He went much further than I dare do, Mr. Speaker, because he shook his fist at the Speaker. I hope that there is nothing in this measure which will lead us to do such a thing as that.

There is one particular feature of this Bill of which I do not approve-that is. it amends more than one measure. vVhen purporting to amend "The Navigation Acts, 1876 to 1911," it surely cannot b0 a good principle to amend also an Act which ha.s a. title altogether different-namely, "The Po1·t Dncs Revision Act of 1882 " as amended bv "The Port Dues Rev-ision Act Amendment Act of 1920." I must protest against this manner of amending Bills, vv-hich is doing nothing to clarify the law.

As the Treasurer told us. the Bill is one of five parts. There are onh two parts that are of great importance, and the ,ci'COllcl part has a most high-sounding title. It is entitled, " Part H.-Regulation of Motor Boats and Motor Vessels." With such a title as that one might fancv that the clause' under it would be all-sufficient for the pm­pose; but, when the clauses arc carefully 11erused, one finds nothing in them conc(>rn­ing the control of motor bo>_t, and motor w;sPl', hut that the clauscs in Part II. give power to the Governor in Co•mcil, on thP rr<:ommendation of thf: JYiarine Bo1rd of Queensland, to make rules and regulations go,·erning the control of motm· boats in v-arions directions. This House has nothing wha tevor to do with the matter except to grant power to an outside body to make the

[J!lr. Coopu.

laws that the Treasurer evidently thinks are necessary for the control of motor boats and motor v-essels. We arc unable to discuss what those laws might be; there is nothing­in the Bill which enables us to do so. All we may do under this part of the Bill is to introduce some matters, which ma;· be matters for regulation, to he approved by the Governor in Council on the recommenda­tion of the Marine Board of Queensland. So far as Part II. of the Bill purports to be a Bill for the rcgulation and control of motor boats and motor vessels, it is nothing of the kind. It is another instance of the way in which the present Government are pursuing that policy which has been describecl as "The New Despotism.'' \Ye find every· thing is being done by reg-ulation, and all power is being given under regulation. In a Bill which deals with the new method of locomotion, it should deal with the important matters that are to be dealt with, and not merely specify those about which regulations are to be made.

Part III. of the measure is one on which the Treasurer did not speak v hen he intro­duced the Bill. Wh'.- the hon. gentleman should not have snoken about it. I do not know. It deals ~ith the reclassification of the vessels that trade between ports within the State-vessels that are concerned in intrastate trade. Previouslv. of course. the~· were part and parcel of ·the vessels dealt 1·;ith under " The Navig-ation Acts, 1876 to 1911." but ev-idcntlv the Treasurer deems it necessary to gi..-c 'thein new classification:-). duo possibly to the fact that the sm'aller vo~sels are much more numerous now than they were when the original Acts were passed. This part of the measure sots out the neces· sary officf'rs and engineers to be C'arried b~' these various yessels; and, .as far as I can see. there is verv little a Iteration in the number or the classiflcation of the officers and engineers to be carried npon these Loats: but tht' Bill does make provision for some­thing that is entirely new when it provides for additional engineers not neecs~arily certi­ficated. These, of course, arc to Le com­pulsorily carried. It is somewhat diffi~nlt to grasp the reason for the carrying of additional engineers not necessarily certiG­cated, unless it is that this provision is the forerunner of a regulation that is to lw pa"ed by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Marine Board of QuePnsland providing that some such appren­ticeship shall be nece,,,ary as a preliminar:· to the i"ue of a ticket. If that is so. then

it is an additional apprcntic,oship [9 p.m.] which engineers will have to

serve: and I doubt whether it is a very \visf' and very just provis.ion t:l n1ake when engineers haYe served the nerr-ssarv timf' ashore and pnssed the necp .. sary exan1i­natiom entitlin;r them to hold a certifi­cate. There is a prov-ision in the Bill which sa:vs that t.he rpgn]ations goyprn:ing th0 issue of a certificate to a third-class engineer shall be thos~ appertaining to the "NaYirra­tion Act of 1876." Bnt the powers to make r< "(nlations are so wide that it will be> quite compdent for the Gov-0rnor in Council. on thl' recommendation of the Marine Boord. to mak0 regulations which will compel those who de--ir(' to becon1e engineers to ~0rYc an apprenticcsl1ip at sea as uncertificated. onginePrs.

Then thoro is another part of the Bill which I think the Treasurer should explain. He should giv-e the ·reasons for the v-alidation

Naviyation Acts (2 0CTOTIEE.] Amendment B-iii. l37'i

of '0 man~.T re(rulcUions that have been gazcttcd over so ~uany years. If there has bren any OYC'r:5ight in the rnatt~r, then, of course, it is all right: but it doe··.: scen1 peculiar to inclmle in a Bill of this kind the validation of regulations that havf.' been in forr~o for so nHUl."' years.

Towards the end of the Bill there is a ,clause to \Yhich strong objection must be taken. It is a clause vvhich, as has brcn pointe-d out so Yery frequently, is a menae;e to parliamentary procedure, and that is the inclusion of a pO\"\ er to rnakc regulations of a very v:ide character. The clause provide' ihat regulations rnay be rnadc for all or any purpose~, ·whether general or to rnoct par­rtcular case's. thclt nu:t,;y be necc:-\:CLry or exj_>C­dient to carry ollt the objects and purposes Df the Act.

I:egulations in such a case rnay be vcr~~ -...vide If tbe vvord •· necessary " w-ere there alone it would not be so bad, but when it come, to the vyorcl " ~xpcdient" all the objections that haYc b:,en raised formcrl.1· to the inclusion of such a clause can be taken.

The rest of the Bill deals v ith a number -of things that are necessary in the n1atter of the safe carriage of pa·s~H:>ngerd and the better carriage of goods, and so far as those parts of the Bill are concerned it is to be highly commcnded. One c:w offer no objec­tion to those things 1vhich are right and proper, hut I do think those clauses in the Bill v;·hich dl'al with the regulation of motor boats and rnotor ym,<·t!ls could -.,-crv \..Yell haYe been s:t out so that this Lcp;islaturc chould know what powers are given in the Bill. To make that section of the Bill a long list of things about which ·regulations rnay be made i~ not trc .. tting the L('gislaturc \Yith that re:"ll8'Ct with which a Legislative A.sscn1bl_. such as this :honld be tre-_tcd.

The other objections arc Ly no rncans serious, and I hope tho Treasurer vvill sc2 his way to do something b." >Y ty of a t um­prehensivo auwndnlPllt \Yhieh \Yill allo\Y thi.~ liousc to !!lYe so1nc consideration to the details of The h J'islation regarding 1110tor Loats and n1otor vLssc].;,

J\lr. DASH (Jiundinuhurru): I think that cno of the most important clauses in the Bill j,o that dcalillg with motor boats. The Bill fd'e:;wribes that persons in charge of boats --hall Jo c~~rtuin thingf. It is possiblr- undcl' the Bill in dealing with motor boats to mahe the lot of tho, o v.· ho o-,,- ,1 them so hard that they ,.-ill hav-e to get rid of them. Appar­' ntlv it is the intention of the Government to rl1f!ke ever:· person in charge of a rno'Lor lJo:Jt, no n1attcr ·what size, have a certificate n~~ T- an ex·1n1ination-whother the\~ ·will g1ve to him b-- Yirtue of long sen ice or <i!S l.eing the o\vncr or 11ossc~ .;or of a. 1notor boot at rwy particular time we do not kno;,­-lnlt e,·idtntly there is son1c'thing in thn Arr ''"hich has not been explained. IYith rcg~rd to the licensing of these boats.

The Bill ]· in n1an:7 respect·. a YCl'}. good It rnakcs pro17 ision for protecting of boats not {__arrying passengers.

vve arc concerned about in in connection 'Yith tho d.1n1r :·-'e

wharves there. It appears that part of grievance of tho TownsYillc Harbour .noard is vYhether, if damage to the whar,-cc< Is done b~' boats tmding from other State;;; and fron1 over, cas ·which ar,; conl­polled to tako on a compulsory pilot to bring ;hem mto tho harbour, the shipping com­pames concerned shall be responsible for

1930~4 Q

tLe Ol' not. \Yhen the Trca :urcr was n:nking sccoud reading speech, he said that darnagc done b7 a boat in charge of a c Jmpulsory pilot cJjc] not relieve the owners 'lf the Fhip fron1 liability for the damage.

The TRKI'' 1-REH : \V hat I sctid was that the pilot wa::;., in the service of the con1~;any; con~c-qtH''hJ,Y. the cmnpany was n spon~H>lc.

DASH: That is something I did not gn t her fron1 the Tr~asurer w lli~ll

his secund rcc1ding speech. Tlw question of rowing bo·t~.s is a 1natter

should recei-..:e some considL'ration by Trc,...:":iujrcr. In rnanv Feaside re,-;orts

partic~ ~ro fi8hin.~~. and hirc~toat frorr1 people thc·re. Som<' of the boats arc nJt safe for 1~coplc to go ont in Thcv arc no tinte out lJcfo1·e bailing is nc_ccssar~·. That is sorne­thing that should be loo.ked into; it fre­quent I:,- happens. :\o doubt, if the-.c boats v·t rl~ caught in a storrn, the people in thern \ ·ould rnn the rif.k of being drov~·ned. There shoulcl.be some Jn·ov-ision to safeguard people \ lt"! lnre boats of that. nature. It is just ~1, 1n1portant for a rowing boat to be sea­worthy as for a motor launch. I hope the Trctsurcr v-yill see that sornething is put lilio the Bill to safeguard people hiring those boats which are not sea worthv and for 1;-11i; :1 they P·\Y 6s. or Ss. for their~ ~se for a uay, and ~re doing nothing but bailing out Ire. n the tune the;· le' a Ye the shore until thcv get back again. That state of affairs ~houl~J not exist.

1 notice that the l\1inioter has taken the Jn·c::aution in this Bill to sec that all noces· 'ai'Y :5afPgnEJxds arc taken in connection with thn carri(l ~e of explosive-;.

The question of lighting gangvm}S, .,_~ ha1~v~:-o:, a ne~ so_ on, is also provided_ for in , ll' 13111, wh1ch 1s .a vcrv good provtswn to han'. The boats trading· between the ports ?f the 8tatc arc not all passenger boats. ln f;:~'t most of them arc cargo boats, and the i rcasnrer IS to be commendod on the a, tion he has ~akcn to safeguard the crevys in those bent-. ~lost of the' clause; in the Bill 'u:c machinery clau,cs, which can •be dealt v;·1+h. better in Committee than on the second r~ndmg.

1\Ir. liY_;'\ES (Town.~rillr): The Treasurer h-:s 'tated tbat uuder this Dill a harbour board such as that of Townsvillc ,,·ill be able t J recover ~y action at law against tho owners of slnps any darna.gc done to its har­b~mr .works. The solicitor for the 'l'owns· v1llc Harb,Jur Doard i,,, of the opinion that the law it st":ncls applies only to intra-st,,tc_ . I mtrodu~cd a deputation to the J_'remwr on this matter at which renro­so:1tdUons. were n:ack to th~ hon. gontlm~1_a11 with a nC'w to mtroducing legislation that would C'lable h" rbour boar-ds to claim cLunngcR irrespeci-ive of \Yhcthor tho ves~--0l

on.,;-:l"Td in iLhast':lte, interstat~, or ovor­~P<tS trade. That sern1s to be a verr reason­able protection to ask for. I have been i1}f~1nnt~d by th~ TrP.a"ur.cr that. ample pro­nswn JS made m th1s 13Ill to giVe the har­~our bo.an1s the dc'sired protection. There 1~ rc:t·ta1nl.\ a cla:_1se \Ybich deals ·vvith thE~ matter. but m:v interpretation of it is that only boats piying from port to port in Que, nsland arc covered.

The TRnsunEn: I will look into the matter between now and the Committee stage to maim sure that vyhat I haYc nid is correct.

. Mr. HYKES: I understand that some pro­nswn h 'S been made in the Commonwealth

Mr. Hynes.]

1378 Questions. [ASSK\1BL"l .J

Navigation Act, but, unfortunately, that Act has not been proclaimed. Last year a considerable amount of cla1nagc vyas done by vessels in the Townsville harbour, and there was anotlH_r in"·tance in Gladstonc; and I understand that the Gladstone Harbour Board has secured an assurance from the member for that district that ht' will assist to have the ncccs3ary provision inserted in this Bill. On looking into the matter. I find that the master of a vessel who has been into a given port on three occasions may, on ap1Jlication, receive a certificate that he is able to pilot his own vc."sel into that port. In the event of that vessel damaging harbour works when in charge of the mP •ts under such a pilotage exemp­tion certificate issued by the :Marine Board, the harbour board can recover damages. Surely the principle is the same if the damage is .done when the vessel is being navigated by a compulsory pilot who is a GovPrninent sc_:ryant ! Thnt fact should not exempt the owners or the master from responsibility. I understand that at a harbour board conference held in Perth some time ago a resolution was unanin1ously car. ried by delegates from all m·cr the Com­monwealth in favour of making representa­tions to the various State Governments as to the necPssitv for the introduction of legis­lation to give 'harbonr boards the protection to which I have referred.

\Ye are very anxious to sPcure this relief, aml in Committee I int<'nd to move an amendment to the clause dealing with the matter; but in the meantime I would ask the Treasurer to investigate the subject with the Parliamcnt.~lr" Drarf.,.Ill::J'l, and ascertain """het her m~' inte-rpretation of the" clause is not corre('i-that only -.;;cs::;;ei:'3 trading llltra­s1L tn 1,;·j1l })(' CGYPr _'d.

The TREASl'RER: I shall be verv pleased to do that. "

Question-" That the Bill be now read e second time "-put and passed.

Consideration of the Bill iL Commii t' 'J

made an Order of the Day for to-morrow The House adjourned at 9.16 p.m.