Legislative Assembly FRIDAY OCTOBER€¦ · (Laughter.) The PHEMIER : Except on one or tw

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 22 OCTOBER 1926

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Question. 1313

FRIDAY, 22 OCTOBER, 1926.

The f:;peaker (Hon. W. Bertrarn, .li(LJ'ee) took the chair at 10.30 a.rn.

QUESTION. Loss o~ 1\lERINDA-CoLLIKSVILLE RAILWAY;

BOWEX ~TATE COAL l\1IX!£.

Mr. MOORE ( lubigny) a'kcd the Secrcbry for Raib.·ays-

" (1) Rdcrring to his answer to my qnc,tion relative to the losses on the l\ler1nda to Collinsvillo Railwav, is he aware th, t the reports of the Hailway Coutm'·-io:~cr di --lose the follow-ing lo"'": -1922-23. Jl16,7u8; 1923-24, o-1029.311: 1924-25, £32,346; a total for the three of ot:78,925, as ag-ain·,t £3,944 in his reply'!

·• (2) In tlw compilation of his fig·urcs, did he exclude interest? If so, is it the intcnti on of the Government to adopt. this n1cthod of accountancy in re-- pcd of all the loan works and s·.rYices and industrial undertakings as has been done in the past in respect of the Bowen State Coal Mine and many other State enterprises?

1314 Suspension of Standing Orders; [ASSEMBLY.] Hours of Sitting.

" (3) Referring to his statem0nt that the 1 ,owc·n State Con l 11ine has saved the Railway Department a oum of £200000. i., he av.are that, according to the Auditor-General's report, the cost of production of coal at this rnino is 14s. per ton, while the selling prico of screeneJ coal is 2C. per ton, leaving a margin of profit of 6s. rwr ton, or 43 per cent.? Is he aware that at this mine t.IJe Govcrnrncnt has adopted the policy c£ pieecn.'"·ork (a hevving rate per ton) in place of its owu policy of day labour'?

"(4) Is he rrwarc that prospecting for coal at Bowcn eomrnenccJ about the year 1913, and that " Bowen Consolidated Coal ll1incs LimitPd" was floah>d in 1919: alw. that it was at '" later date that the Gon,rnment decided to resene a large aroa in this di~trict for th~_~ purpo:iG of a, State coal rr1ine. thus taking advantage of the \\ ork done by IH'ivatc entt,rprlc,c?

'· (5) Is he also a\., are that a report on the private coal mine in the Bovv __ 'n district, publish0d on 25th c\ugust. 1922, stated th:tt roal front that mine \\ould be aYailable at the pithead at 16s. per ton '1

" (6) Is he yet aware that, according to the latest report of the Railwa v Com· Inis.siOTH'l', thP price of coal f)E'r ton delivered to the Raih, ay Department ,., as-Brisbane distrir·t, 16s. 10d. ; Bun­damba district, 16s. 10d.: Toowoomba district, 18s. 3d.: Blair Athol, 10s. 6d.; ~he m_in~~-, in nl1 these ccntrrq bring run b;,7 pnvato enterprise? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe, KLppel) replied-

" (1 and 2) The figures given were obviousl. on ·working and l'XclnsiYc of interest, and most of the information vca • awtilable in the Commissioner's annual report.

" (3, 4. and 5) Thes0 qnc,tions should be addros,c•d to the :\Tines Deportment.

'' (6) 'The honourable mcmhor' s infor­mation is out of date. The price of Blatr Athol coal has be"n increa cd bv 3s. per ton since the pcri·od rncntioncd~, and c:oal from othPr private minv; has br-011 rncJ·easc•J in price al~o-in the past twelve months. The honouro.L>lc memb0r o~>Uld hayc secured up-io-date informa· tlon by appl,\·ing to the IlnihYav De­partment. Further. the honourable m."mber is apparentlv un<tlnt·e that thl' price of coal from p)·ivat.c mines in the i\Iarvborough district (not State mines) rs 26s. per ton.''

P_'tPER.

The following paper >Yns hid on the table:-

Regulation under the Irrigation Act of 1922.

SVSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS; HOURS OF SITTI)!G.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) : I beg to move-

,, 1. That so much of the Standing Orders be suspended as would otherwise prevent the receiving of resolutions from Committees of Supply and \V av; and Means on the same ·day" as they shaJl

[Hon. TV. McCorrnack.

have passed m thoc-e Committees, anct the passing of an Appropriation Bill through all its stages in ono day.

" 2. That for the remainder of thif sPssion, unless otherwise ordered, the House may continue to sit, except on days allotted to Supply, without limita­tion as to time."

Mr. MoORE: I understood· that the first part of the motion was separate from tho second part. I called ":":ot formal" to No. 2.

'The PREMIER : The fmt part of the motion i· .. the usual tnovision to facilitate the passage of an Appropriation Bill. The second part of the motion, to which the hon. nwmbcr c<>ll,d "Not formal," is alec. de,igned to facilitate the business of the House. The main object is that we ma;, continue to sit aftc r the ordinary hour now fixed for adjournment. I hope to finish the session early in December.

lilr. KI"G: v,That is behind the motion? (Laughter.)

The PHEMIER : Except on one or tw<J occa~ions~ hon. n1embers opposite have not wasted the time of the HousL. but it is hoped that we shall fmish tho sPssion early in December, and there is no doubt that, if we limit the hours of sitting to half-past 5, there is an inYitation, if l m,ty say so, for hon. mcmbc·rs to carry on the business till half-] "''t 5, knowing that .,-e cannot go any furth"r. I hope that it will not bo foumi ne-e< ''f'.•rv to avail ourselves of the motion. l do not want to burke discussion, bui I do \Yant to get bu:.,ine·"s donr. The scssio1 is passing yery quickly, find vvTe have still quite a lot of Supply days left. To-day " the 22nd of October, so that \\8 have not much time bchn en now and the date I have mcntioni'd. The only ·desire behind the rnot,ion i:- to get busi:ness done.

::\Ir. MOOTIE (Aubig.-1y): I do not think there is any ground for the a~sumption that we ha Ye wasted time. On an rmport.ant Brll, such as the Stamp Acts ,-'<mendment Bill, it was ne, .~'-,ny to get the fullest inform>tion, net onh for our own bencfit but also for the ben0fit 'of the public outoide.

The PRE;IIJER: I am not complaining of th Jt.

Mr. '.IOORE: I can assure the hon. gentle. man +hat. evcn if we are to have extended hours. the Opnosition will take t_he fullest time for discussion which the~' thmk ncces­"ll'''· and the Premier is not g-oing to throat-en n· 'jnto ~ilcnce b;.r sa~-jng that we aro going· to sit late. It is g-oing to be awkw~trd for hon. members. We do not want to sit late, lwcause the hours of sittinr, thE>n become too long. It is rather tiring to am·body to sit all 'dav and then at night. and it is difficult to conccmtrate on the questions before us.

The~ PREMIER : It is more ti·ring for ::\Iinl~tcrs.

:'v1r. MOORE: I quite understand that it is also tirinc; for a Minjstcr-probahly more tlrinn· for him than for us-but there av' sr.me~ Bills on which it i" absolutely ncecs­sarv thgt we shonld p:et the very fullest inf~rn1ation and oven jf -we have at times to sit late I am sure the Opposition will J?Ut up with it in order to get the informatron which they consider necessary.

Suspension of Standing Orders. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1315-

Mr. KELSO (Z{undah) : I should like to know the meaning of the last few words in the second part of the motion-" without limitation as to time." Does the Premier suggest that, if necessary, we shall sit all night?

Tl-te PREMIER: With the present limitation, if we want to sit till 6 o'clock, we cannot do it. The extra half-hour might enable us to dispose of the business and get away.

'VIr. KELSO: There might be a heated debate, and thP Premier, in his discretion and with the majority behind him, ma:· decide t0 sit all nighL

The PRE'I!IER: Does your o·.:perience lend you to belieYe that hon. members on this ~ide desire to sit all night?

Mr. KELSO: No; but my experience leads me to believe that, when the Premier make.; up his mind to get a certain thing through. he will sit all night, if neceesary. I am not saying that he will do eo. I would like to know whether the Premier is prepared to limit the time so that hon. members will know exactly where they are. I suggest that he agree to limit the c vcning sittings to 10 p.m.

The PRE'Imm: We will not sit until 10 o'clock.

Mr. KELSO: I do not think it is beneficial for the businf'SS of the countrv or for the officials o£ thP House if we sit all night.

The PREMIER : I will not rush the business.

}Ir. KELSO: Will the Premier give an undertaking that he will not sit beyond 10 o'clock? ·

The PRE11IER: "'o. I would be placing myself in your hands, and that would not be advisable.

:\1r. KELSO: If we arc to sit unreasonable hours, it will be impossible for hon. mem­bers on this side to study Bills and give due consideration to questions that demand con­sideration. *

The PRE:IIIER: I promise you tl:at there will be no rushing of business.

Mr. ROBERTS (East Toowoornba): Recognising that the Government have a right to do their business, I have no fault to find with them for asking for this extension of hours. No one knows better than the Premier that at times the Opposition do not rcceiYe the fair deal to which theY are entitled. \Ve had an illustration of that only a couple of days ago. That is the fear of the Opposition. The Premier says that he will not sit unduly late, but we may again experience what occurred a c0uple of days ago and the Pl·emier might be in that frame of mind that he feels it his duty to continue the busincs·,,, I am not blaming him for taking advantage of the extended hours. I ha ye been long enough here to know that the business must be doi1C.

Mr. SW"\YNE (J1irani): When day eittings were instituted we were told that it was done with the object of obviating night work; bnt apparently now we are to ·,;ork both day and night. It will now be possible for the Premier td'' carrv on the business of the House from 10.30 ;;.m. until midnight or later. In those circumstances are the debates to be reported by the " Hansard " staff or by the daily prc',i? If we sit long hours, it will be impossible for

the r0porters to giYe an ad0quate report of the business tmnsactcd. The work will bf' Yery heavy for tlw " Hansard " reporters unless it is intended to increase the staff, and it wi:I not be possible to give the electors any adequate idea of the business­tha• is dealt with.

The Pr;cmier said that he did not ,;ish to burko the discussion, but he knows yery welli that that will be the effect of his motion. It has already been pointed out that it will b8 impossible to o;ive proper consideration• to the businebS if we are to sit day and nighb '', is proposed.

Question put and passed.

SUPPLY.

RESc}IPTION OF C01DIITTEE.

VOTE ON ACCOUNT-£4,150,000.

(J1r. F. A. Cooper (Bremccr), one of the pane1: of Temporary Chairmen, in the chai>·.)

The TREASURER (Hon. W. :McCormack, Cairns): I beg to n1ove~

" That there be granted to His :Y1aje~ty, on account, for the service of the Wear 1926-27. a further sum no1' cxceecling £4,150.000 towards defra} ing the expenses of the Yarious departments and services of the State."

Mr. MOORE (.4,bign'lf): Before passing this motion to Yote this formida blc sum I desire to say a few words on the position we appe•t,. to be getting into. \Ye are asked to pass a certain amount of lllOJl<';l", but that does not count for very much. became we kr;ow that, if the Government get into a position that they want to spend n1orc 1noney, the:- just do it, and it is left for Parliament to approve of it afterward~.

There are some things which I would like h call attention to before we go into the question of pas::::ing this amount of money. The revcnne and expenditure for the first few months of this year require to be attended to, because it looks as if some new method or some- economy must be instituted if the country is to be prevented from getting into a worse poshion. Tho rcvenuP shows an increase of £268,609 for the first three months of this year. while the expenditure shows an increase of £479.664. The estimated increase in expenditurE' for the whole of the year is £546,768 ; consequently ,,·e have practically absorbed nearly the whole of the estimated increased expenditure in the first thre8 months. Thnrefore it seems to me that the position, instead of becoming better, is likely to become worse. \Vc have several factors to look at. The position for the ftrst three months of this year compared with the first three months of last vedr is worse bv £211.065. \Ve han• also to() take into Consideration that tht' increa"'cd expenditure resulting fron1 the incrt·,'1Se in th<~ basic wage was not continued throuf':h the whole of last vear. There will be an increase· in thc~t respe.ct in the first quarter of this financial year of £60,000, while the increase in the railway charges, which were not paid in 1925-26, amount to £20.000. or a total of £80,000. Then the Commissioner of Taxes has collected an enormous amount in the first three months of this y(ar. He must be going his hardest to obtain everything he possibly can, because of the £613.000 standing on 30th June last as arrears of income tax

Mr. JJ oorc.]

l316 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

only £25,000 rem!Lined on 30th August. Therefore. the Commissioner h!Ls practically collected the whole of the arrea.rs in these fir,t three months. The position is becoming a most difficult one. \Ve are spending money at a great rate. It is. !Lll very fin<; for the GoYernment to bn11g In new taxation mea­sures, but the po .. ition is a serious one, and ono which will have to be faced. Last year there was a deficit of £554,686, and the losses which went to ma.ke up that deficit are still continuing. \Vhat sort of a position are we like! v to be in if thf',e losses are all owed to conti"nue? The total loss on State enter­prises last year was £299,629, while the total loss on State enterprises since they were instituted has been £1,47S,274.

Mr. PEASE: You have said that before.

:\1r. MOORE: I know that, but the losses arc continuing.

:Mr. PK\SE: The Treasurer says he IS going to stop it.

:!\Ir. :\100RE: It is still continuing· m all these enterprises.

The TRB~l.:REH: No.

2\ilr. MOOHE: So far as I eau sec, the ·Chillagoc Smelters arc starting aga.in at the end of this month.

Th2 TI!E.\SuHEH: Yes, to use up ore that is <lll hand.

Mr. MOORE: Most of that ore represents a loss in smelting operations.

The TREASUHER: ::'\o.

Mr. ::Y100RE: lt has been so, and I knov,' of no change in the rnc•thocls employed. A price was hxed that \\ ould be unremunera­tive to the smelters, bnt which would en­courage people to send in their ore. If that continut,s, the lo~.., must continue.

The THEASURER: There may be a small Jo,s, but the complete lo>> that pro.-iously took pla.ce is cut out. ·

Mr MOORE: That mav be so. but I am ,cepti.cal about it. and so far "·c have nothing t0 back up ihL,t statement.

The TREASUHEH: There has been a complete ·CC'seation of operations.

l\1r. l\1COEE: For six month·, juot tluc ~nmr> as last vear. The c;essatlon applied to tlw mine. ·

The TJlEI,Sl:REH: Ever; thing has been <topped.

Mr. l\IOORE: Ever:.-thing cannot have been ~topped, Lecausc ore has been con1i11g in all the time.

The THE.iSURER: Ore has accumulated. It 1 s an asset. and has to be smelted.

Mr. l\JoHGAN: Are you sure it is going to be an a ,, t?

The TnEAS URF'l : It is an ao'.ct. It costs so rnuch to pnt there. You are not gojng to leave it there?

.Mr. ::\OTT: It might cost more than it i5 v. orth to treat it.

The TRK\SURER : I do not think so. You have beco1ue an expert in the la.:t few days.

Mr. NOT'f: I would make a better job of it than the Government.

. "''!OORE: I am a bit "·orried about smeltero. '\Yhat sort of a balance-sheet

do thev show. and what sort of a position are th"ey in? From the remarks of the

[ Jl t·. JJl oar~<.

Auditor-General, it would appear that we have practically had a "faked " balance­sheet presented t0 us. The Auditor-General has this to say--

" ~otwithstanding this relief the busi­nC'~s con1lnucs to shovv lo::..-~c ·;;. Tho vcar 1924-25 disc:losed o, loss of .£29,929, "and the Financial Statements for the year ended 30th June, 1926, as submitted to me, showed a loss of £66,907 Ss. 5d."

Later on, the Auditor-General says--" I took advantage of the presence, in

Brisbane, of the General :Manager of the Smelters to discuss with him the method adopted in arriving at the valuat.ions. Eventually he agreed that if tlw net .-ahw of the orc"c· and by-proC:ucL> on hand was taken-thai, is, the value of the recoverable contents less treatment and realis!Lt,ion costs-the amount should be set down at £73,042 15s. 7d .. a de­crease of £S8,986."

If a balance-sheet is put before us in which wt' are giYen merely the gr<Jss value of the ore in a heap, not taking· lnto account the realisation cost, surely that balance-sheet is not ·orth th0 paper it is \vritt :n on. Last year the ba1ance-sheQt \vas put fon.vard. and. thou~h the smelters closl'd down on 30th June. there appcatT1l on the assPt sid~} un amount of ,S26.600, representing crude <Jre.

The SF.CHETAHY FOR :'\fiXES: That was rnerely an cstin1ate.

Mr. MOOH.E: That amount was set down a3 representing crude ore available for smelting. If the smelters closed down 011

30th Jmw, it is a most extraordinary thing that there' should be £26,000 worth of ore left available for smelting. On page 114 of the report <Jf the .\uditor-Gencral for 1925-26 reference is made to the Trading Account and Profit and Loss Account for the year end1 d 30th J unc, 1926. The report reads-

" The loss for the j'Car (£155,S93 Ss. 5d.) is the largest since the commencement of operations, and the following reasom have been advanced bv the General Manager in explanation' thereof :-

" (1) The writing-off of doubtful assets, such as flue dust and other by­,products, which have appeared in the holance-shcot for several years, but which at present would sho" small profits after payment of treatment <'hargcs.

" (2) Writing-off of £26,000 for ores shown in the Lady Jane mine, but which, owing to the treacherous state of the mine. it was impossible to recover.''

So that the £26,000 shown as an asset in the last balance-sheet was re1tlly for ore that was in the mine. That amount had no right to appear in the balance-sheet as an asset.

Mr. O'KEEFE: Why not?

Mr. MOO HE: Because it was not an asset.

ThP SECRETARY FOR l\IIXES: The actual amount cannot be determined until the ore is smelted and sold.

Mr. MOORE: You cannot recover it. It was put down in the balance-sheet as if it were ore on hand, and, instead of that, we find that it was not even taken out of the m1ne.

Sttpply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. l3lT

Mr. O'KEEFE: For what reason J,s it written off?

::Mr. MOO RE: Because they cannot recover it.

Mr. O'KE<EFE: You know nothing about it. Mr. MOO RE: When I was up there, and

the question was asked as to where this £26,000 worth of ore was, I was told that it was in the mine. It is in the mine, and they cannot get it out. The balance-sheet should not bo given to us in that way. 'rhe information given is obviously misleading, and the Auditor-General found it necessary to call attention to the matter.

The SECRETARY FOR MI:><ES : When you were up there you promised to hand over the mine and the smelters to the men.

Mr. MOORE: I did not promise to hand over the smelters to the men. I promised to do exactly what you are doing to-day-give the minc> to the men to work on co-operative lines. The Auditor-General continues-

" (3) The loss of approximately £25,000 on the purchase of Cloncur·ry ores.

" (4) The rc-valucttion of 10,000 tons of :Vlungana ores now at Chillagoe works."

Such a balance-sheet as that is absolutely unreliable. \Ye cannot tell what the position of thes8 enterprises is if we are going to have that sort of thing. Last year the Mun­gana mjnes woro put in as an asset and valued at £207.000. and to-dav the ::\iinister htts abftndonecl them as vaiueless. ·what aHct has the State got for the amount of money expended?

The SECRET'.RY FOR MI>;ES: vVe have taken over £400,000 worth of ore from the mine.

Mr. ~IOORE: That value of ore may have been taken out. but the value was put down last year as an asset after that £400,000 worth of ore had bPen taken out.

The SECRETARY FOR MINE'>: You do not take into account the assistance to mining.

Yrr. MOORE: I am talking about the balance-sheet put before this House-not assistance to rnining. 'rho point is that it was shown as a definite asset worth £207.000. and a few months afterwards we find the Governrnent H.bandoning it as valueless. Is that an accurate ·statement of the position? l¥e find inaccuracies right through. The position is R most serious one, and we ought to know the position we arc l'eally in.

l\fr. O'KEEFE: How can ',·u c,tll it value­less \vhen the n1en are malung good money out of it now?

Mr. 1100RE: It is valueless as a;-1 nsset to the State.

~Ir. O'KEEFE: The n1cn an" proyin6 that it is vrcluablc.

::'>Ir. MOORE: It is valuable to thclil. but a;.; :1n asset to tho State it is valueless. Thi~! mine stands on the books of the State as an asset "·orth £207.000. That is the part I am objecting to. When the \uditor-General <'llls attention to facts like thc,e. it is some­thin:; of whic·h notice must be taken. He goes on to say-

[11 a.m.]

"S'r\TE TREA'rxrE;,;T WoRKS AND 'rRAxrwAY, IRVINEBANK.

" The financial results of this un.dcr­hking have been unsatisfactory, as in one year only has a profit been shown,

and t.his was due to the suspension of interest on the indebtedness to the Treasury. At 30th June, 1924, the accumulated losses amounted to £34.518, but an appropriation of £30,000 from Consolidated Revenue Fund in reduction of these losses left .a balance of £4,518 only to be provided for. The last two financial years have added a further £7,092 to the losses, bringing the debit balance of profit and loss account to £11.611. No interest has been charged by the Treasury since 30th June, 1922.

" The crushing charges have r"{llained constant during the period the under­ta.king has opcrat~d, no variation being made- w;th the changes in the valuation of tin. Considering that the businee, is " losing proposition, I suggest that wJ:.en tin is worth £380 per ton the crushmg charges should not be the same as when it is £80 per ton."

Tl• at m ay be a, very sensible suggestion, and it must be the onh- reawn why the people arc not taking their ore there now. They arc ta,king it to Herberton, because they can get it crushcu cheaper by private enterprise.

1-.Ir. O'KEEFE: Ab a matter of fact, tin neYer reached £380 a ton.

c\Ir. MOORE: It does not matter. What is the g()od of increasmg the charge when rwoplc n re already takmg it to private enter­prise at Herberton, where they can get it crushed C'hea.pcr?

1\lr. I''KE~FE: That is not correct. You arc quoting one in"tance

The Tm:AscRER: I think you are wrong.

:VIr. ::>!OORE : Thev told me it paid them la ·'end the ore to Herberton at a cost of £2 a ton, beran"' they get a better result and it is crus.h0d cheaper.

Mr. O'KEEFE: You mention a crushing in one case•; you cannot prove any more than one case.

The TREAS1:RER : 'fhe tra.nsport cost of the ore is higher.

~lr. l>IOORE: I know that, but they said they got a better return. It is all very well for the hon. member for Chillagoe to say there is only one n1an.

Mr. O'KEEFE: There is only one man. I defy anyone to prove that there is more than one. There are only two, at any rate.

2.1r. CosTELLO: :::\ow you say two.

l\1r. MOORE : It pays these people better to go somew.hcre else with their ore. They will go 1 a the place where they can get a bdter return for it.

'l'ho SECRETAHY FOR ~1I>;ES: ~0 one knows better than van that some farmers t<1ke their < l'Ctun past 'one cream factory to another a long way further off if they can get a better r0tnrn.

~[r. O'KEEFE: There are people bringing their ores from other .districts to Irvinebank.

:Vlr. :\100RE: We ha,-e the suggestion of the _\uditor-Gcneral as to whether the people shQnlJ pay tb<' price charged.

:\Ir. O'KEEFE: I think that is good advice too, and at the present tirnc people are taking ore to other centres where they can get a. better return.

Mr. Moore.]

'!318 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The TRE.\Sl'RER: The road between Irvine­bank and I-lerberton goes over ono of the highe•t mountain range-> in Queensland.

J.\lr. MOORE: I know th11i it costs 36s: a ton to get it there, but the people are ·paying that pricc.

The TRK'>' rRER : I would like vou to name the people who arc doing it. ·

Mr. O'KEEFE: You are quoting Fraser and McGill. They were dissatisfied. and claim that the manager was stealing their tin.

Mr. :\IOORE : They never made am· state­ment to me about the mana.ger stpaling their tin. rrhcy said they ·werr' getting a better return, and it paid them better to send it to Hcrberton bcrause the cruching charges "'<\·e-ro eh ea per.

Mr. O'KEEFE: I know the caee well.

The SEChETARY FOR 1\IrxEs : \Ye charge by lhe hour, and they charge by the ton.

:\fr. 110()RE: The:. charg·e by the hour as well as by the ton.

The TRnScRER : There is no comparison between Ininebank and Herberton. The In·inebank plant is more up-to-date. I know them both pcr·onally.

Mr. ::YIOORE : Th<tt ma_v Le all right, but, when yon have e•.-idcncc that people prefer to take their tin to the Hc•rberton plant, they do not do it for fun-there must be some rea-on for it.

1\Ir. O'KEEFE: The Leader of the Opposi­tion knows verv >vel! that for ve:trs the people of Herbe.rto'l used to take 'their ores past the ;-.Jorthern mill and Silver Valley to Irvinebank becau-e they werp dissatisfied with the ::'-iorthcrn mill crushing.

Mr. MOORE: I am merelv talking about ·the sug:gestion which the Auditor-General makes in his report.

There are several other things which are worthc- of note. and which sho.,- the loose manner in which the business has been car­ried on. One thing I want to refer to parti­cularly is Mount Mulligan coal mine. The Auditor-General says this about that State enterprise :-

" The operations for the yen ended 30th June hst show a loss of £2,147 0· 7d .. compared with a loss for the previous year of £9,724 12s. 4d., an improvement of £7,577 lls. 9d."

If you go into the quE'•tion, vou find that the Railway Department has 'heen charged 4s. per ton more than the State Smelters, and that makes up a difference of £7,100. so that, if the department had been charged the same as the State Smc•lters, the loss would have been jnst 'lbout the same as it was last year.

The SECRETARY FOil MIXES : The cost of production increased.

Mr. MOORE : \Vhv did not the smelters pay for the coal at " the earn(' rate as the Raihvav Department? The Government charged the R~ilwc:c Department 4s. per ton more, winch JUst makes up the difference between the loss which accrued last vear and the loss this year. If the same amount had been charged to the railway as was charged to the smelters. the loss in both years would have been the same. '

Mr. O'KEEFE: But the Railway Depart­ment is getting 20 cwt. to the ton now. It never got that before.

[ 111 r. 111 oore.

Mr. MOORE: Is there any suggestion that the smelters did not get it last year?

Mr. PEASE: Private enterprise never gave it.

l\Ir. 1\IOORE: Hon. members opposite al\\ ays f'cem to be suggesting that Govern­ment" departments like the Railway Depart­ment are not able to look after themselves, and do not ,.:et the right weight. (Govern­rnent interruption.)

Tho TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order !

:Ylr. MOORE : It almost reads like a work of fiction, bee a use some extraordinary things ha· o been gc.ing on up there. For instance, the Auditor-General says in regard to the Irvinebank >vorks-

'· In June, 1920, Groene applied to the rwmag-cr of the works for an advance against some 30 cwt. of tin, subsequently to l.JC' delivered, no actual time for de­livery bein<r specified. The price of tin \Yas t-hen .£240 per ton, and an amount of £251 10s. was ad\ anced. ~o tin was deliv red bY Greene until March, 1921. r. nd the quantity then received was slightly over ono ton. The price in the interim h ,d receded and the March narcl'l was onlv worth £81 5s. Sd. Greene idso owed £25. 7s. 3d. for stores supplied to him. Th<> matter "as referred to the Solicitor-Gmeral and a demand for pay­tncut \Vas made, but without result""

I think I am right in complaining about the loose method in which these things are conductr>d.

The f'ECRETARY FOR :\1INES: \Vo foreclosed on Greene's mill.

l\Ir. illOORE: I am only taking what the report say'. \pparcntl.v money was advanced to peopl -~ .,,.·lthout anv delivery, and no actual tinH' for deli~, Pry v,as specifiQd. lVIoney is ad•·anced for stores to a man just when he Iikc•s. and nothing seerr1s to ha11pen.

\\'ith regarcl to the Vulcan Tin Mining Company Limited, the Auditor-General says-

" In 1\Iarch, 1922. the Mines Depart­ment approved of an advance of £500 to the company as a loan, and also agreed to suppl> firewood from the State Treat­ment 'Works.

"Firewood to the value of £426 17s. 5d. was supplied in conformity with the department's decision, and Irvincbank undertaking s1;ould ha vo been recouped. The comnam is now defunct and pos:::.~ :·;es rlo f;Jnds."

They pR;cl nothing. All this sort of thing h:1.s been going on for y0nrs up thPrc.

rrhc SECREN.RY FOR ~liNES: The firewood was rotten, but I can explain all that.

:i\lr. :YIOORE: 1'rivate enterprise would not have done ibat. We have to look at the positio,, as it appears from the report. The whole admit>.istration of this department s• c:rns to ha vc bee-n loose and unbusinesslike, :-et -: e aro snpposed to vote considerable snn1s from reYenuo, trust and loan funds for such undrrtaklngs.

1\It·. O'KEEFE: That is not correct. rnattcr of fact. the Government have on the whole of the Yulcan machinery f':dent of £8.000.

As a a lien to the

Mr. '\[OORE: I am only quoting what the _.:_\uditor-General says-

" The companv is now defunct and poss, ,,~,--_.:;. no funds."

Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1319

'';r'he Auditor-General states, wit~ respect to the mmes and plant assoc1ated with the State s:nelters--

" These assets are valued In the halanee-sh0ct at £289,275 16s. 4d., although at 30th June 1926 the onlv mine "\vorking was Re~dcap, 'valued a~t £2.215 18s. 3d. Work at the other mines had been discontinued on account of the unprofitable financial results.

" In view of the foregoing and the fact that no depreciation has been charged, a re- aluatwn of the fixed asseto is necc"­sary. and. will undoubtedly result in hcaYy wntmg down of the capital value of the business."

Then we have that lax busine's tran·-action i tt connection wifh the purchase of timber from the Tar7.ali sawmill, the cost of which !3 debited to the smelters. It appears that the admmistratwn IS becoming so lax that '-" must be car:ful before vvc expend more mane:;· m carrymg on the activities of the department. especiallv where they are not showing a profit. but s0em to be ~ontinuallv Nting up the money put into them. "

The SECRETARY FOR :\fiNES : The o-cneral manager of the Chillagoe smelte1:"s was empowered by an Act. of Parliament to make Ld \·an cos against ore.

J\Ir. MOORE: Yes, but it was not antici­pated that the manao-e·tH'nt would be con­uucted in this lax wa';_,. The balance-cheets ar0 not what they ought to be. They have been faked.

The SECRETARY ~OR MIN~s: There might hav-e been some 1rregulanty, but no dis­honesty.

Mr. :\100RE: It is irregularity that ohould not be allowed to continue.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : It was paid for from another enterprise.

Mr. MOORE: I am not dealino- onh- with that particular sawmill. We ha~e balance­sheets disclosing certain assets and the assets arn not_ t.here. If you invest £26,000 in an enterpr1se and you cannot recover it, it is not an a_os0t. If the Government invest £207.000 1n a m me and then abandon it. there Is no ""'et. The nosition is that w0 havE' not the true balance-sheets placed before us. "When you have a big body of me .valned at a certain amount and· the A ud1tor-General questions the amount and ~nds tha~ the . Government have not taken mto con'!deratlOn--

Mr. O'KEEFE: He has not been there to 1k(.

Mr. 'Yl:OORE: ThP management ad'1litted that it was overvalued to the extent of £88.000.

Mr. O'KEEFE: No. The SECRETARY FOR }\fiXES : The price has

fl uctuatcd since then.

Mr. ::WOORE : I am referrino- to 30th June l.ast. ':'-nd the ore has not "fluctuated much m pnce between 30th June end 20th Oc·tobcr. It _ ":as originally yaJued at £,20_7,000. and It I_s Yalued at nothing to-cla;v. L Is put down m the balance-sheet es an asset, and that is what I am complaining about. ·

. 'VYc .have another definite case in connec­tron w1th the sapphire tradin"' account. The qm·crnment are not selling ';.nv gems and tl!PV have proh_ibi~cd t~e sale o'f gems' from tlw field. An md1gnahon meeting was held

i;1 Sapphiretown last Monday. This is the report of the meeting-

" GE;I! MIXERS.

" ULTIMATUM TO GOVERNMENT.

"Market Glutted.

" Brisbane, Monday.-The gem miners of Rubyvale and Sapphiretown have car­ried a resolution that unlecs the Govern­ment resumes the buying of gems within a week they will take a ballot on the question whether the proclamation of the Government acquiring gems under the scheme should not be deemed null and void.

" Tlic miners consider that the total cessation of Government buying is tanta­mount to the dosing down of the field.

"1'he 2\Tinister for Mines said to-day that he had received the notification from the miners.

" l-Ie admitted that the Government had not bought any stone' for some ti;ne as alreudv there was a large stock whiCh could not be sold. He blamed the bad state of the market and the low rate of exchange of the French franc.''

The SECRE'l',RY FOR )/[rxES: Thev took a ballot in fayour of the schcntt'. V

;.rr. l\100HE : Thcrc is no se iJ<"Jw. The Government ceased buying last l\Iarc11. The schcrne is inoporati\ro; the GoYernrnent will n<Jt allow the miners to sd1 the gen1s.

:Yir. FoLEY : Thes cannot sell them.

:\Jr. ~·vrOORE: The nwn 'a) the-· call. :\Ir. FoLEY: Thcv might be ublc to sell

£1.000 worth to a few speculutors. The bP!! indic:ItPd that the hon. member's

time had expired.

Mr. ELPHI:\'STO:\'E (O.."'"Y): C, rtainly one of our financial tragedies is that touched upon by tho Leader of tho Oppo:itiou. T very much regret not having been able to see the Chillagoe State Smelters in opera­tion. I think that all of us should have seen them, but they are rather far out of the ordin::try beat. \Ye haYt; to judge of the "ork from the information which the Auditor-General gi_y("' us on occasions likG this. Ho disclc.-es tho fact that si1we the State \,,rnclting operations corrnnenced, \Vith H1e cxcC]JtiOll of the smf11l profit of c£1,375 in the f-irst ~vcar, there ha;, l1een a sequence of los-ts. until at 30th June, 1926. the loss stands at £467.000. That is the taxpayers' mom':, '"hich has bcc•1 dropped into the Stat0 Srnelt0 rc.:.. In rnY -o1Ji11inu that does nnt bv nn -:.- 11H'<UlS d i::'~Jo.;~ th~ ~: .,iousness of thC sitL{ation, bccnu,i:_• ~...-c ll1Jcl t.h~t the indobt. dne•e of the State Smcltu·s to the Tr-·a"ll'V is now c£961.000. If the valuation v,hich li<iS be-en pJarcd upon the El :;hincry and ,,, forth. it appears in t.hc halarcc­:-;hc( t. co!__lld b[' realised in a ::;:,alf~ or conYt: ded into c~sh, then there would be some grain of comfort; but c .tll kno".' f]uito W<'ll that 1hP Yr>r:v ll10rtlrr"t a mining YP1ltur" lo~.es its p1·ofi.t:1hlr- adivitif.; -.nd thp H~srt~ an~ thro·wn on the tr•nrlPr rnr:rc1c-s of tht· markf't. the n11ning_ machinery is practic .. d1y 8old for i'Crap IrOn.

Mr. XoTT: It is all practical].- okoletc 0

The Mini -tnr has admitted that. ·

Mr. ELPHINSTOXE: If that ;, w. then it rPally disdoses the fact that. in addition to J his net loes on the trading account of £467,000. vdl8n this smelting machinery

JJ1.r. Elphinstone.]

1320 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

comes to b• realised WP shall only rcceiye a fraction of the ,£961,000 which this activity owes to tho Trf'asury.

I well remember when the Chillacroe and Etheridg-e Railwavs Act Arnend•:>wnt Bill was before the H~u·2. We were told then !hat the private company which had run that concer~1 for ypars had n'lismanagcd it, and that, if the0; had done this, that, or the other thing, it would not have been necessarv to dose the activity down. We were ; ]so told that the State, posc•"ssiug a greater knovdcdgP of the mining possibilities of Korth Queensland, knew exact];.· how to run the smelters. \Vc wore told, too, that the railway which was run in conjunction with it was to form part of a railway that was to run from Cairns across to the Gulf. This was one of the wonderful pictures that was painted to us, but the only argument which appealed to me at the time was that the activity would give employment to a large number of men in the Chillago•• district. That fact shoulrl ~-,11 for the sympathetic consideration of a11. especially - wl1en ,; P

realise that our policy is to settle the tropica 1 rPgions Vir-ith our own w·hite race. Con­"eqm ntly any proposal to settle a more intense white pormlation in our tropic must appN1l to us. To rne that w~s tlw bigge.::.t argument adYanccd in favout~ of this St;~te enterprise. Ih~r~·. unfort.unat-c1y, we are forcPd to look at. the position from the point of view of £ s. d., and the 'l'r0asurer is in th~ VPr:v unplen,sant po~itjon of having to close clown this enterprise. It >vould be fair to this Parliament :>nd to tho Sta.te. if the hon. gentlcmnT\ \vmdd tackle this matter in a "0rious and pron0r busine~~ manner. let us know exactlv what. onr loss is. and how he intends to meet it.

The TREASnRER: That has been dmw.

Mr. ELPHI:\'STONE: I boJicye that the Treasurer is desirous of doing that; but, while the assds of Chillagoo apne"r as the:\' do in the trndinr.r account, he j.-, :not doing­what we might cxrwct him to do. He will not bv nnv manner of means rcalisP un to the 1\gurt' at which those asset..; stnnd. The ho11." gentleman knows that onlv too \YC]J. J remC'mbcr attendinv 8 SU](' at J'lfount OhalmDrs. outside of Rorkhempt.on. whore w·hat \Yas once a profitable cnt('rprl"" vi'"a:;.; being- .old up. an<l 1hc priccc; at ···hich the bulldingR and ffi3f'hinf'rv ·H·C'rf• ~olrl was pitiable to the vendor. You c"nnot sell dis­used ma('hinery, pnrti('ularl:v ln the condi­tion whieh th0 machincr,- nt C'hi1ln::Tor> is jn -the Mini, ter ha himsplf eclmittccl it to this House-at anvthinn: lib' the cost. na.rticulnr]y if the machirwrv is not llD to date. That is one of the reasons to which the J'l1inister attribnt0s the loss. or a por­tion of the loss, which the smelting operations arc ~hawing every year. '-

The Tnr<RrRFR : Most of it is of no use in any other industry than mining.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: That reallv en­dorses my argument, and mining is on the decline in Queensland. That is endorsed hv the results which h:we just been pub-lished. .

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: ::-.Jo further metals could be profitably produced at Chillagoe by private enterprise.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: The mining returns of this year ckarly show that the mine pro­ducts of Queensland are dwindling. I do

. [ 3f r. Elphinstone.

not believe that the mining resources of Queensland are in any way tapped yet; but tlw cost of production is such that ;ve can~ot market our metals at the worlds parrty. That is the problem. That is ~he pr'?blem associated with all our products munedrately we have to place them on markets outside Australia. It applies, unfortunately, with great force to our mining operations. As the 'l'rcasurer points out, that being so we. have to take stock of the position, and, whilst it is our policy to }nvc high rat:·; of w.ag;es, the GoYornmcnt will have to ~ut out mmmg as a profitable operation, and !oak to other activities to augment our revenue. 'Where those adivities are to be found I do not know. '.vc arc vradually coming up against it in every possible direction. Here is one field from which we used to dcr1ve consider­able revenue. but frorn \vhich our income is now practically m.gligiblc. If the Treasurer desires to know the worst and to let the tax­payer knov; the worst. he must realise that the valu.' place-d on the machmer~· at the Chillagoc Smelters is an extravagant O?e, and that that machinery is not likcl)· to brmg t'n'n a fraction of the .-alue that appears on the; balance-sheet. :1Iatters :ne very unlikely to i1nprovc, bccau, (~ we are hasing every indu .. try cut aY>r,y from under our feet. In thi-, n1ining indusirv it is not because of the \Yorlrl's priee nnd ~of th-~ proc~u{'rion llc~ing lm. that the venture is not a succcs . If my inforn1ation i~ correct, }(_,ad is C]HOted at a vcrv favourable figure to-dav. and. if that is s;l, Hw GoYcrnmcnt cannot ·blame the over­production of the world or the decline in the price for the existing state of affan·s. \Ve ha.-c actw,lh to admit failure >>'hen the marln"t for Our biggest Chil1a~·oe ]n·odu~t. is almost at peak price. If that 1 • the position -and I do not ,,,ish to nli:;:stntc 1natters or misb'd the Chamber or myself--the position is all the mor0 significant. The Government a;·e cutting out mining activities, taking away from the \vhlte population of QHC(~l{s­land one of its main hopes, not b>'c .. cuoe tne prices arc low but bee a use our eo.: t-:> of pro­duction arc too hig·h.

\Ye ha ,·e also arrived at that stag-e when it is impossible to encourage a greater SUf?ar production. Y\<,, arc actually oYcr-pr~d_ncm.g su(Yar to-da",. The cxtraonlinar~v- po."'Ibon IS th~t the mo.re WC produce the WOl"SC it is for the State. That is an impossible position. Xow our dairying industry is arriving at the same stage when. by the Patcrson scheme, the more W<'• produce the more the cust IS to the local consumer.

The only industry that is p~mnitted to continue is that of the pastorahst who has been producing wool. By reason of the extraordinary high prices for wool that have prevailed throughout the :vorld. we have ;lone ven well m our vwol mdustry, and 11ave rea~hcd a high productivity enabling us to balance our ledger everv year. As soon as drought conditions .occur, as t[tey alwavs do in Queensland, it will be Impossible for trHtt .Jtate of affairs to continue an~ Queensland will be ab,;o]utcly up agamst 1t with "·ool, a•·, 1t is with all othPr rndustncs. EYeryone in this Chamber real1scs .that Queensland is beginni_ng to feel the pn~ch, not because of a declme m our production, not because of the market or the pn.cE', but simply because of the cost of producbon. ~f the Government are gomg to mamtam their attitude of atrophy and imagine that our prosperity is going on indefiuitc]y. based on.

Sttpply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1321

our previous wool production, then they are living in a fool's paradise, and the sooner they realise that the better.

'l'here is another phase of the matter. Assuming that the price of wool is going to be ~naintaincd at the figure it has reached dunng the past few year", there is still the danger of the introduction of substitutes. Ho<; are we to know that substitutes are not going to creep in to take the place of wool, which always occurs when an excessive price IS mamtamed for any raw material? If that occurs we shall assuredly be up against it.

Without wishing to introduce party politics into thi3 matter, it is " up to us " to take stock of ihe situation. The signs are becornmg very ormnous, and there is a fog settlrng down on Queensland. I am not a pessimist;. I am an optimist; but my busi­noss trammg forces me to take notice of the signs that prevail to-.da:y. Every penny I possess m th1s world Is mvested in Queens­~and, and. every penny I make will also bo mvested m Queensland, because I like the country and the people in it. But we have to manage it well, and to-da;- we are not doing so. Here are signs of which we must take note. .Therefore, I do seriously state that the Ch1llagoe State smelters proposition puts befo;e us .another opportunity of studying the Impo·-SJbihty of tr: ing to run our affairs as a self-contamued community regardless of the outside world.

The THEASUH.ER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cazrns) : The debate has got a\\ ay from the usual debate on an Appropriation Bill and It has rather got down to individual ca~es as oppo,od to the broad general position as it stands to-day. The Government are faced v~ith the position of dealing with this situa. t10n, and I think we have tackled it in a proper way. Personally, I •ay this with so~e diffidence: I endeavoured to get a revww of the pos1t10n some three yea·rs ~i,io, . because I had lived in the Chillagoe mstnct and worked there from the time I was twenty years of ago until I got into Parliament. .I followed 1cr:ining there, and I know somethmg of the district. I was one of those who believed~and I still believe~ that there is an immense mineral wealth in North Queelloland. I have seen manv min­ing propositions developed in that district. some of them successfully and very profit­rrbly, others unsuccessfully. In some cases the failure was due to bad management or a wrong policy, and in others to the com­pany, after h1ving spent a large amount of money, being faced with low metal prices~ tm down to £60 per ton, copper to £42 per ton, and lea~ £13 per ton~prices at which even at the low wal'es then existing it was Impossible to explOit the mine. Lead was never over £13 pN ton in those days.

':\fr. ELPHJXSTOXE: \Vhat is Jea-d to-day?

. The TREASURER: £32 per ton. Allow­~n,g for the inereascd cost of production. the mc-reasccl cost of smelting, and everything ~,lsc. leod to-day Is a better proposition than 1t wa-s in those days. The Government thought that ther could. as the hon. gentle­Inan stah .::;, ag-ain n~Yivo in North Queens­land. an i1~dus!ry carrying a rnining com­murnty, which 1~ one of the be~t cornmunitie,, for the development of a countrv. That has a} \vays been our experienre and we ern­barked upon this expenditure The results

have been unsatisfactory becanse of many causes which I have not the time to go into at present., nor would anything be gained if I did so.· We find that wo have failed to establish p·rofltably the mining industry in the hinterland of Cairns. There is only one thing left to do, and that is to find out exactly where we stand, and I am endeavouring to do that. I have added to the investigation by the Audit Department my own practical knowledge of 'the position there, and to-day we have plac~d before us the report of Mr. Beal, the AuditoroGeneral, who, 'l am sorry to say. some members of the House thought would uot clearly and plainly state thll case in regard to Government -•ctivities. He has done so, and no one desires that he should do otherwise, because, if we have to face the situation. we must know the truth. (Hear, hear'!) The result has b(•en a thorough invostiga tion into Chillagoe as it stands to ascertain where we are. and the balance-sheet to-day is a com­m<•ntarv upon previous balance-sheets that ha•1e been i-ssued, and upon which we c~epcndcd for our knowledge of that par­ticular undel'taking. To-day we have cleaned it up. \Ve have made every investi­gation. and I quite agree with the Le':der of the Opposition that it is useless to thmk we can canv on Chillagoe with the capitalisa­tion that appears in the books to-da:y. Of course it is impo3sible. The Consolidated Revenue Fund is carrying the burden, and it is no g·ood hoodwinking ourselves m that rc•gard.

\Yhat thc Government desire to do, if it is po,;sible. now that we have written off certain

losses and got a true balance­[11.30 a.m.l sheet, and have eliminated asset~

appearing in the ba!ance-sheet "-hich were really not a"'et·3 at all, lS to try m a limited way to keep the mining industry aliYe in that district. with the hope that those who are out prospecting and secur~ng ore ,may develop something worth while. The policy of the Government is not to con­tinue losing money in Chillagoe as m ~he past~not to continue mining and smeltmg as a big undertaking~but to endeav.our, with as little loss to the St.ate as possible. to prm-ido facilities for the smelting of ore. \V e wi,,h to he! p men to go out in the bush to develop small shows which may become good mines later on~and sooner or later they will be compelled to take up mining again as other industries languish~ and to give them a place where the ore can be smelted. and help them in a small way to carr:c on development work in that district without anv great loss to the State. So long as we know where we are and carry out that policy, we can continue to help the mining industrv in that district without very great loss to the State; but to continue, merely for the sake of finding employment, to lose large sums of money on an uneconomic venture would be madness, and it is not going to be done .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The TREASURER: The position has to be faced in regard to other enterprises as well as C:hillagoe. The sugar industry, which is one of the most highly protected indus­tries w.hich we have and which has enj9yed a good run of prosperity, has got into diffi­culties because of over-production. I have to say to the ditierent Government mills, "You are not going to be given money out of the consolidated revenue to pay for cane. You

Hon. vV. McConnack.]

1322 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

must come into the position of all other in· .dustries. Pithcr StatA or private yent-ures. You can ha YC the mill at a reasonable capitalisation and co-opcratiyoly control it. and you can get what is in the industrv." That polic~· has been applied. The losses last year in rtgard to Govorn:rrent. sugar n1ilL alone was £82,000--South J ohnstone, £43.000; Proscrpinc, £6,000; North Eton, £5,900; Gin Gin, £8,000; and Mount Bauplc, £18.000.

Mr. CLAYTON: Have you got the profits of the proprietary mills ?

The TREASURER: I have not got the profits of the proprietary mills.

1\ir. CLAYTON: There are profits, and they arc working under the •oame award.

TlH' TRF:ASURER: The difficultv in some of the GoYcrnment mills is that they have bPP!l placed in district, which were not suit­able. It is no use arguing that point. It is recognised that some of these mills built man,· :n ars ago on the central mill o>ystem arc> in bad districts.

:VIr. ELPHH:8TO:-:E: Which mills are those?

Tlw TREASURER: Mount Bauple and Gin llin, :tnd North Eton to a. lesser extent. They have not an ample supply of cane for one thing, and it '.vould not pay the Govern­ment to bring them to the sta.te of efficiency of other mills. becau,o the supply of cane is not thne; but they may enable the people to carry on cane-gnnving as one activity and also engage in othvr activities; thus com­pleting the circl0 and making· a livelihood in grov;ing can<' as well as in other activities. Anyon0 who knows anything about the indus­iry will recognise that it would be a waste of money to bring thB Mount Bauple mill, say, to the state of efficiency of the JYfulgrave mill. The hon. member" for Stanley wa.s a chemist at M:u~grave mill.

Mr. NOTT: And at Gin Gin once, too.

The TREASURER: He could speak much more authoritatively than I could on this subject, but I am sure that in dealing with .the problem he would not spend the large amount of money necessary in a district like Baup!P or Gin Gin to bring the mill to a state of pfficicncy equal to that of the Mul­grave mill, because the latter is in a district which is most favourably situated, where everything is ideal for ~he production of sugar. whilst the other is in a dying district where natural conditions are not good. Con­sequently it is not sound to apply the theory of the hon. member for Wide Bay that these mills have> failed but that private enterprise would have succeeded in a like position. There is , not a section of the growers for these milH'-and I ha vo discus;;cd the matter at great length '':ith them-which did not "ant Govcrnmf'nt control.

~Ir. DEACOX: They are getting a good thmg out of it.

The TREASURER: Well, they may. I propose to legislate to make the people of the. South J ohnstono and Tully areas carry then· own burdens. vVhon they complained r_ecentl:y I asked them, " If you, who are lrvmg m this area. and are getting the full benefits of. the organisation of the industry. arc not gomg to meet your deficiencies, what other, Sf·dwn of the community must I put It on. Am I to put it on the cotton-growers or the dairymen?" And I got no reply. The:3e matters are engaging tho attention

[Hon. TF. JlcCormacl.:.

of the Government. It is a difficult task. It is no sinecure to have to face all these problems but thev are being faced. They have to' be faced. Necessity compels it. ·whilst we are engaged in meeting these diffi. culties, little good will come of ca~s~ice criticism or attempts to make polrtwal capital. I hope that the_ public as a.. whole will give us the opportumty to deal. with the situation, because thc,y are as much mterested as anyone else. vY e must put our house in order.

HoNOuRABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The TREASURER : If we do not put it in order, everyone-every \vorking ma~, every business man-will suffer. The task IS not beyond our capacity to deal with so long as we have a fair deal in tackling the problem. The State stations have been a failure; but no more of a failure than stations in the hands of privrrte men who went into the business at the time. Any number of people in stations have found themsoh·es in a, similar position.

Mr. MAXWELI": That is no excuse for the Governrr1cnt.

The TREASURER : There were circum­stances m·er which we had no control.

Mr. MAXWELL: :"Jo.

The TREASL'RER: The hon. member may say so, but I am dealing >rith the situation as it stands. If hon. members of this CommitteE' bdicve that they are going to solve the problem by twitting the Govern­ment for something which was done six or seven years ago being wrong. all I have to say is that that will not solve it.

Mr. KERR: Sou made your own problems.

The TREASURER : Private people in · tations find themselves in the same position as the State.

l'dr. Knm: But thev dabble with their own money. You dabble ,~·ith the people's money.

The TREASURER: We have reluctantly to admit that they have failed. I am not one of those >Yho believe that control by the State is going to n1ako 8ome d:ving ventures pay. I do not believe that they will pay until the people are prepared to recast the social balance, are prcrmred to give them that considcrdion--both manager, employee, and the public generally-which they would give to something· of their own; in other words, until they are prepared to regard them as their own property, established for the whole of the people.

Mr. KIKG: l\,ovolutioniso hun1an nature !

The TREASURER: It is most difficult to assess the value of a sen·ice controlled by the Gm·ernrnent as against the value of a service carried on for profit. I mado it my businesf' to n1ak~.., son1c inquiries in c Jnnec­tion with the fish supply in Sydney. The Government of New South vValcs esta~lished a State fish busin~ss with State trawlers. The balance-sheet showed a loss of £30.000. and-this is worth noting-it was scrapped because they lost £30.000. Since then private enterprise has come into the field, and last year Sydney paid neulv £100.000 more for its fish than it did when the State lost the £30,000.

Mr. ELPHIKSTOKE: Evidently that was what the fish were worth.

Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1323

The TREASL:RER: The point I make is "±hi~: A soC'ial service ''.18 givE'n to tho community that could not be put into a balance-sheet. The State enterprise wa' con­dPmned rnerelv on the commercial method of sho,Ying .~ 1;rofit or u loss; whered' ~ as a r!'atter of fact. some State activities confer -t,pon the community great social benefits that do not appe.1r if' the balance-sheet. Take the raih';'ays! \Yill anyone say that private enterprise would ha,yo tackled tlw loss <'xperienccd bv the railways as a result of the· drought. They could not do it.

:Vlr. l(ELSO: You were warned that there wo11ld be a loss,

Tho TREASL:RER: We have to deal with things as they ar0 If a man in Servia had uot shot one of the Royal family of Austria, there might haYo boen no war; but what is the use of cliseussing that? rrhe social service g·iyen by the raih;a,,Ts to the communit 1: can­IJOl be i1laced in :1. ·balance-sheet. Lac.t year 1\" conferred a benefit on the women and f'hildren from outl.1ck centres by conveying them to the seaports. 'That could have appcar(~rl in the ba1ance-shPet as a charge o: £80.000 or £90.000. We did it for nothing. The san1c thing applies in connec­·tion with school children and in connection with th'' clrought. Some hon. members have lived in conntric•s where there aro private railwavs. They know that none of these benefit; is conr'erred upon the public when thc ownership of the railways is in private 'hands.

Mr. KELSO: 'Tne Government han• to pay for them just the same. ·

The TREASURER: The community pays for thorn. In comparing· the rHult as con­tained in a private balance-sheet, Parliament. as the representative of the people, should giYo due credit to those serYiccs that are giyen to the public for nothing.

i\lr. KELSO: That is a bad method of ·keeping your accounts.

The TREASURER: Take our telegraph system! One ha< only to go to the United States of America for a short time, where the telegraph systems are controlled by private enterprise, to know that it costs 4s. 2d. to do tho "-ork that- we have done here for ls. .

.Mr. TAYLOR: How is it that they are so prosperous :in America?

The TREASDRER: They are pros,Jerous in certain directions. I am pointing out that. although we ma,· take more in some forms of taxation than is taken jn sorr1e other ,countries, State-owned services provide a social service that does not appear in a balance-sheet.

::Yir. KING: Are we paying too much for our whistle?

The TREASDRER: I do not know what the hon. gentleman means. If he is asking if v o are paying too much to "wet our whistle,~, then I will tell him that we are paving a Yery high price to "'Wet our whistle," the Commonwealth Government ·taking in taxation about half the cost of

,,-etting our \vhistle."

:Wr. KixG: You know the application of ·n1y rernark.

Tho TREASURER: No doubt there are -difficult times ahead, but if the Opposition tl.esire to help the Government-and the

Government desire to hPar their suggestions and criticisms-they will point out to us in \Yhat directions we can econmniso.

~r. G. P. 13ARXES: We have been doing that for years.

The TREASL:RER: The Opposition will also point out, if they can, in what direction we c;tn reduce C'xpenditurc. ,_\._ large a1nount of our expenditure is in wages. SeYent:. per cent. of the expenditure in the Haihn.y Department is in wages.

Mr. KEHR: It always has bol'n so.

1fr. PEASE: You want to reduce> them.

The TREASURER : :Some hon. members opposite have contended that the railway< are over-staffed. I have again and again ask0d the Comn1issioncr for an ans\YE~r to that charge, and his reply does not confonn with the allegation. On whom am I to depend? Some mcmb,-r of the Op]J("ition. who rnerelv makcc the statement for political tactics, or" the official who is re>-]Jf>nsible for running the service? In what djrcctlon .anl J to econornise? It is a pertinent qtH:-~uon. I ant willing to Iist('n to any suggestion. I ,. ant rnore than carping ('ritici·1n. If I :·,•ceive no sugg-t'"tions, then I shall proceed on tho lines that I think best.

1\lr. RoBEHTS: It is your rc~r)Qn~-;bility; you shoul-d do it.

The TREASL:HER: Have the Oppo:it.Dn PO rPsponsibilit:v? It is intrrcsting to hav_(' that aspect. I think t-hey have a rlsporw­bilitv.

:\1;·. ROBERTS: We will do our job.

The TREASURER: Hon. members oppo­site have a responsibilitv, whether they are Of' this or that side of the Committee.

::.1r. KERR: Session after s<ession we have given you adviee, which you will not accept.

The TREASURER : The advice was like the advice of the hon. member the other da v, It will be remembered that, wh~n the> Go.vernment introduced some lPgislatwn to compel railway men to submit to, discipli_ne. he alone attempted to make pohtrctl capital out of it.

Mr. KERR : I did qot.

'The TREASURER: 'I'he hon. member was the only one who did not stand np to his responsibilities in that connection.

}Ir. KELSO: Have you read what Sir Samuel Fav said when he ('amo to ...:\u:--tralin.? .

The TREASUREH: I have read a lot o" things. I have read what Sir George Buchanan said. He criticised u", and to-.day Pvery newspa.per in Australia is hoeing mto him.

Mr. KELSO: I am talking about Sir Satntrbl Fay, ,vho was a railway expert.

The TREASURER: Let me return to the main question that is worrying all of ~s­that is, how to live within our moans wrth­out placing hardship upon any secbon of the communitv, and to obtain for the_ State the verT best service wo can. That rs our problerr;. If any hon. member believes that the. raising or the lowermg of wages can solve the problem, he should study some economic works on the qnestion of wages.

Mr. ::--iOTT: It is not a question of wage~.

Hon. IV. McComwck.]

1324 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The TREASURER: No doubt hon. mem­bers will agree with me that it is service that is needed.

Ho!-:OURABLE :\1E:IrBERS: Hear, hear !

The TRE.ASURER: service.

\\le \V ant good

:Ylr. MOORE: Promotion by merit and ability.

The THEASURER: The suggestion that there is slackness in the service does not apply only to Queensland. It applies all over Australia. In fact, it is worldwide.

:\1r. KELSO: It applies more extensively here.

The TREASURER: Its origin may be biological.

Hon. VV. H. BAR>TES: Don't forgot that you v0ry largely helped to cultivate it.

The TREASURER: The hon. gentleman may say that; but Victoria finds herself in a very difficult position to-day, and not because a Labour Adrninistration is in po\ver thare. Victoria has always boon in an advantageous position, for, while Govem­ments in other States have been experiment­ing with sorial legislation, which at times has caused a little disorganisation. that State has alwavs been in a position to take advantage of the experience of the otheJ· States. What is the position in Victoria to­day? The Government arc hardly a stable Government, because they arc suffering from th(' snrne 0conotuir dislocation that not only Queensland but all StatE's and countries in the world are experiencing. That shows that n'lcre carping criticign1 against Labour's experiments in the social field is not going to solve the problem. I hope that Labour vYill continue to cxperirnent in the social field. and take full advantage of its experi­ence and thre mistakes it commits in making those experiments.

GO\'ERX:\lEO<T :!'lE:\lBERS: Hear. hear! Mr. CLAYTO!-:: We all hope that.

The TREAS'l:RER: Is there efficiencv in bmim'Qs circles to-day'! Hon. members oppo­oitc know quite well that there is a slack­ness in private enterprise as well as in State <mterprice. One has only to live in Brisbane to kHow that the control of indust·n' in a lot of directions is slack on top as ;,;ell as slack b0low. One does not need to be a poEtical Columbns to know that. The nation that is prepared to "ork from Monday morning unt.il Saturday night. with no week­f'nds either for the office bov or anvbodv ,,]se. is going to beat the couritry whe;e the directors of i11clustrv are avvay for three or fonr days at \Ycek-fmds. That is a t-ruism. I han·, not cliscon red that. If unrest is broadcast t.~rongh all sections of the peoplr-, then it is gain~ t·o be very difficult to recover the position.

:\fr. KELRO: You ltavc done tt lot to foster that po'-iti-cn1.

Th" TREAST'RER : That is mere cant. There has been no Labour government in Greet Bri!.oin. Th'''' had .a L'lbour G.,vcrn­m 'llt ill office fm a short r Tiod, but it tT<_lll~. '"'·as not in pov;er.

:\lr. HOBEHTS: It caused a lot of trouble. too.

The TRE"\Sl:HER : It caus. cl no trouble. It wa,~ a.drnittcd to n1c by ConserYatiye mem­bers cf the En1]1irc ParlianH~nt.ary ...:\s·:ocia-

[Hon. v\T . .llcCorrnack.

tion Delegation that the Labour Govern-­ment in Englttnd did exceptionally well when in office. and were defeated bv a forged· letter. (Opposition diesent.) I 'do not ay they would have secured a majorit.v. but· they lost. seats because of a forged letter­not bec.:mse of their policy at all.

::\Ir. KERR: That is very problematical.

'l'he TREASURER : It is not. It is accepted' b·.' all people who ought to knO\v. What is the position in England? It is no good blaming the working man in Great Britain. \Ve hear a lot about- efficiency in Americttn factories. Go to America and see who are the leading hands in the factories there. They are Britishers. Those men are doing excellent \York. The)' go over from Great Britain, and arc placed in charge of great busi­nesses in An1.erira. Not onh· are Britishers·

· in charge, but they arc at the benches also. Is that not a suggestion that the control on top in Great Britain is inefficient? Is it not a suggestion that it is no use alw~ys hlaming the men \Yho do the work 1 \V e shall not get anywhere by doing that alJ the r.lUlC.

J\1r. Norr: Xo one blames the men who do the work all the time.

The TREAS'CRER : The hon. member know· that politically the blame is thrown en onr> section.

lVIr. KELSO: Do vou sav there io ineffi­ricncy arnonrst the~ head; in indu~try In

Great Britain?

The TREASCRER: If I did, I would mere!:.' be repeating what everyone in Eng­lrrnd is saying.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAJ:\ : Order !

The TREAS'GHER: I do not. want to raise a discussion on that, but just mentioned the fact by way of reply. The hon. member kno\Ys it is true.

J\lr. Knso: It is not true.

The TREASURER: The hon. member knows it is true in n1any cases.

Mr. KELSO: I am not talking o bout some cases, but about tlle generality of cases.

'l'hc TREAS1JRER: The hon. member wants to introduce a ne·w situation.

Mr. KELSO: No. I referred to th· gener­alih' of cases.

The TREASURER: Anybody who talk& about generalities is hiding behind something or d-eceiving himself. The trouble in this Chamber is that we only get generalities, inst0ad of getting specific cases. If we want to remedy matters, we want specific cases, a.nd not a general statement that this is 1vrong, that is wrong, or something else is IYrong.

11r. J:\oTT: \Ye have given spe~iflc cases in connection with State ('ntcrprisrs, ·J'aruing you off the policy you have followed.

The TREASURER: Let us get back to the· main question. which is the granting of Supply. The Leader of the Opposition men­tioned t'oat again thie year in several dcpart­ments~moro particularly the Railway Depart n1ent-we "\Vf'ro spending n1ore thnn we "-ere earning. That is true; but it is very diffi­cult to take anv one month or any three months of the year as a geneml avera.ge. It is impossible to divide the estimated expenditure and take one month as

Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 13::?5

·criterion for the twelve months, In some periods of the year we get very little revenue at all and the expenditure still goes on. In other periods we get a high revenue with the same ou tgo, and for that reason you do not arrive at any conclusion by taking month bv month .

. Mr. MooRE : I took the first quarter of this year as against the first quarter of last year,

The TREASURER: There has been quite a relaxation in expenditure in the Railway Department last month owing to the rains we have had. I think the department shows a better position to the extent of £94,000 than for the previous month, showing w,hat an extreme burden the drought is to the . department. If we get more rain and we are relieved of the tremendous expense in­·cUl-red in shifting starving stock and carry· ing fodder, the railway position will improve monthlv. It is very ·ditficult to estimate ·exactly' how things are going from month to month; but I hope we shall be able to square the ledger at the end of this year.

Mr. MORGAN : T,hat is a fallacv about the loss on starving stock. The figures show that you have made no loss.

The TREASURER: The hon. gentleman knows that we made a loss of on:>r £25,000 on the carriage to market of fat bullocks, so what is the use of talking? That is a con­cession to the bullock ownprs of whom_ T bel!cve. the hon. member IS one.

Mr. MoRGAN: That is not so.

The TREASURER: But we did. Mr. M oRGAN: Then you must lose on every­

t,hing you convey on the railways. The more you convey the more you lose.

The TREASURER: We have been losing, and the people who are not paying get the benefit. That is the obvious reply, You might argue that the man who has fat cattle in )/orth Queensland to get tD the meat­works ought to pay full rates to enable the railways to carry them profitably; but he has had such a bad time for a number of years owing to selling no stock that wo have continued to give him that concession to help him out of his d ifficultios. That is another factor that does not appear in the railway balance-sheet. All these thing3 should be shown, if we were honest with ourselves, and I hope next yhar to be able to give to this House a railway balance-sheet showing exactly in money terms what the railways are doing for the general community, and then there will bo l~,t1s criticism in regard to the department. We intend to give the Ra.ilway Department crodit fm the work it is doing to-day, here, there, and every\vhere, oo that the railways will not be the target for every criticism.

Mr. KELSO : vVhom are you going to debit :

The TREASURER: If we give a con­CC'dion to starving stock, to the meatworks peoplE\ or to mining, it is not right to charge that concession up to the Railway Depart­ment and then say the railways are ineffi­ciently managed. It should be charged to the general public, and in future it will be charged to tho Treasury. [12 noon]

Mr. DEACON: You ought to have done that long ago.

The TREASURER: I am not assorting that it is going to make the financial posi­tion anv bett.er. It is not; but it will at lreast be: fair to the undertaking. A man does that in his business, because he wants to know which department is paying and which is not. The balance at the Treasury would not be alt-ered; but we must accept it as a fact that those eoncessions are given by tlw State as a whol0, and they should not all be charged to the Railway Depart­ment.

Mr. KELSO: The same with a free railway pass.

Th0 TREASURER: The hon. member has one.

l\lr. KEr.s'o : No, I ha vc not .

.Ylr. NOTT: Is it not. a fact that, even with the concession you are giving in connection with the removal of stoek on the railways, the an'ount charged is higher than was being charged tvn~~lve years ago;

The TREAS'GRER: It is; but is it not a fact t.hat the cost of giving that service has more than doubled? The hon. member is hoi"t with his own petard-to use the words of one' of his party. During the election carnpaigu I l)Ut a question to an interjector nt Sandgatc, who talked about. the railways in a g-eneral wa:-. 1 said, "'Where do you work:" and he said he worked at Dalgety's, T swid '' T)-icl vn11 nvo.-.. h .. ..,.,. ro.+ 10111 "" ~~..-l

he -<aid ·· Yes." I said, "\Vhat did you pay (o come backwards and fon,ards in 1914 ?'' He told me, and he sa,id he paid only .50 per cent. more now-we had not put on the last increase of 10 per cent. then. I said. .. Do you realise that the cost· of coal, wages, locomotive,;, and rolling·-stock has more than doubled, and that for the money which was borrowed to build the line only 3~ per cent. interPst was paid, \'Yhilst no\v we are paying 5~ pt'r cent. for rnoncy. To-day you are getting actually the same service rendered to you for lc,.s than you paid in 1914, if vou take oih<-·r relative factors into consider­'tion." Is there not food for thought in what I am saying?

.YI r. KEHR: There is a compensating factor in tl1c increasing populat.ion.

The TREASURER: That is a plain simple mothocl of showing what tho pooplo are getting from the railways and what they are paymg, and what they >Yould have to pay on that service if they met every increase whirh is inevitable on t-he raihvays. Un<]ues­tiona bly the user, of the railways are in a bl'tter position than they wore in 1914.

::\!lr. KEilR: That is not fair. Just let me say this--

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order!

The TREASURER: I took this oppor­tunity of saying a few words because of t.he difficult position facing me. The whole of the GoYcrnment party realise the position as well as I do. \Ve want real constructive critici-;m, and not carping criticism, vvhich will not got us anywhere-. We are the Go­,-crnment·. whcth0r for g·ood or evil, during the next three years, and it is for hon. rnem­bPrs opposite as well as hon. members on this side to gi.-e the GoYernmont what help they can in laein(l' a difficult situation.

HoxouRABLE ME:l!IBERS: Hear, hear!

Hon. W. IilcCormaclc.J

1326 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): I have listened with very considera,ble interest to the remarks of the Treasurer about the financial difficulties with wliich the Government arc faced. 1'he earlier part of the speech of the hon. gentleman tDld us something that we were all pleased to hear. The middle and the latter part was devoted evidently to an endeavou~ to find some excuse for the posi· tion in which the Government find them­selves, which ha,s really been created by themselves during the last eleven years, and which has been pointed out to them as likely to happen during the whole of the time they have had posse,sion of the Trea­sury benches. \V e on this side have not created the financial difficulties of the Government. They were told clearly and definitely year after year where they might expect to find themselves if they went on with the various trading enterprises upon which they were emba,rking. When Mr. Theodore wao Treasurer and the State pro­posed to embark on the trawling industry, I sa.id in this Chamber before the trawler ever <:ame to Brisbane that it would pay th'' Government to hand £10,000 to the Government of New South Wales and cancel the purchase of the vessel. Similar things were said with rega,rd to their ventures in the mining industry. \Ve said, for years and veare, that it was not the function of the Government, as trustees of the public funds of this Stat-e, to beLome mineowners. \Ve realise that every encouragement should be given by the Government to bona fidp pros­pector.< in order to develop the mineral rc·sourc"s of the State, but one of the most serious things that they ha vo done, and a thing which is no credit to them, is that they ha,vc appropriated public funds to enable them to indulge in mining ventures. vV c are told by the Treasurer that we must not indulge in carping criticiem. \t no time has the criticism which we have dircrted towards the Government been of a carping nature in a11y shape or form.

The position of the rail ways has been men­tioned, and the Treasurer has spoken of the social service which he 'aid they had been performing for the public. Does he consider it a good record of social service that the railwavs should show a loss of between £14,000,000 and £15,000,000 of the taxpayers' money in eleven years? What is wrong with the railways? One thing-and it has been mentioned in this Chamber several times­is to be found in the thouEands of pounds lying idle at Ipswich. Who is responsible'? Not this side. \Vho is responsible for the fact that tens of thousands of pounds lay idle at l\IaYne Junction until within the last t>vo or three years.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD Ixnt;STRY : Ask your colleague, the hon. member for \Yvnnum. He was a member of the Administration which instituted both those projects.

:Mr. TA YLOR: vVho was responsible for starting half a dozen railway lines in different parts of the Sta.tP, and then stop­ping their construction, instead of carrying on se.:tions of them to their terminal points and opening up the country as it should be opened Hp? The Government and those associat0d with them are rc:,;ponsible for all these things; and they are some of the things which have created the enormous loeseo with which we are faced.

l JJ r. Taylor.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND I~D1JSTRY : Your Government passed nineteen railways­in 1914.

Mr. TA YLOR : How many were left by the previous Government to be completed b_y this Government? Very few. It IS not a b1,t of use the Treasurer or any other hon_ member opposite twitting this ~ide in connec­tion with thP position in which they now find themselves. The main point is that evervthing which was told the Government from this side as to the loss tha.t would surelv follow was pooh-poohed. Hon. members opposite were so obsessed with their Socialistic ideas of State ownership that they absolutely closed their eyes to everything else. I say advisedly that, I do not care what Government are in power, they cannot compote successfully with private enterprise in trading enterprises.

?vir. CoLLIKS : What rot ! Mr. TA YLOR: I sav again that no·

Go.-ernment can successfully compete with private enterprises in trading enterprises.

Mr. COLLIKS: vVhat about the post office? Mr. TA YLOR : I do not call the post

office a trading enterprise. I do not call the railways or the Department of Public Instruction a trading enterprise; but if you' purchase a piece of steak over the counter of "' butcher's shop, I consider that a trading· enterprise. If we can believe what appea,rs in " Smith's "" ecldy " this week with regard· to State butcher shops-that a cow with a, fnll-grown calf inside was killed and sent to the P.oma street shop, the cow to be §Old lo the people of Brisbane as meat-then it is an extraordinary way of carrying on State activitie~. A Government must function in the interests of the communitv, and not in the interests of a section only." The Govern­ment are only trustees of public money, and they have no right to embark upon venturee that ha vc proved so disastrous to the tax­pa,, ers and the people of this State. It will take quite a long time before we are able to return to a really sound financial position in this State.

Mr. ""- CoOPER: It will take a long time before we get back to 7s. 6d. a day.

:-Lr. TAYLOR: The hon. member would: probably be dear at 2s. 6d. a week.

Several hon. members interjecting,

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. member for Carnarvon to coaco his interjections and obey the call of the Chair. I ask hon. members on both sides to obey the call of the Chair.

:\1r. TAYLOR: The Auditor-Genera,l points out that the loss on the State Smelters for last year was £155.893. I desire particularly to draw the attention of hon. members to what the general manager assigns a,s the rea-.ons for such a loss-

"1. The writing off of doubtful assets, such as flue-dust and other by-products, which have appeared in the bala,nce-sheet for several years, but which at present would show small profits after payment of treatment charges."

Tho SECRETARY FOR MINES: Flue-dust is an asset with every mining company.

Mr. TAYLOR: Another reason is-" 2. Writing off of £26,000 for ores

ehown m the Lady Jane mine, but which­owing to the treacherous state of the­Inine it was impossible to recover."

Supply. [22 OcTOBEr<.] Supply. 1327

Just imagine taking as an asset £26,000 worth of ore that has ne1·et· been mined ! Other reasons are--

" 3. The loss of approximately £25,000 on the purchase of Cloncurry ores.

" 4. The revaluation of 10,000 tons of Mungana ores now at Chillagoe works."

At 12.15 p.m., Mr. RIORDAN (Bud·e), one of the panel of

Temporary Chairmen, relieved Mr. F. A. Cooper in the chair.

Mr. TAYLOR: The Auditor-General states as a further explanation of the lo;,--

" The low smelting charges made to ore suppliers, which it has been com­pulsory to make in an endeavour to obtain sufficient ores to keep the smelters ru.nning six n1onths per annum."

Those are some of the wonderfully efficient methods which the Mines Department and the Government have adopted during the years they have been running these mining ventures. Is it any wonder that wP are to-day faced with such tremendous losses? As the hon. member for Oxley pointed out, if the assets of Chillagoe, w hi eh are set down at £967,000, were placed on the market to-morrow, they would not realise £150,000.

The SECRETARY FOH l'I1IKES: How do you know they would not?

Mr. TAYLOR: Let the Minister trv it. We know that he does not want t.cJ try' it. He also knmn perfectly well that what I am saying is correct. \Vhen a mine fails the machinery is not worth so much scrap iron. It is only so much rubbish. As the Trea­surer said, we have to face t-he position. \Ve are willing to face the position; but the Opposition "ill not accept any responsibility for the enormous losses or the present posi­tion which the Government flud themselves in as a result of t.heir- trading ventures_

The State stations ¥core mentioned bv the Trca,;urer, who said that private indiv{duals had also suffered very large losses. Probabl) they have, but not man: of them have had to sc"k the aid of the Insolvency Court. If hon. members would road t.]lO " Trade Gazette," whjch most business men receive, they would sl·~ that, while a number of pas­toralists, both sheep and ea ttle raise" have had to obtain accommodation from' their hankers and financial institutions. verv few of them have had to oall a meeting o( their creditors. notwithstanding the strenuous period they have passed through. That proves again that the State as a State is absolutely incompetent- to run ventures of this kind.

How is the position to be remedied? The Treasurer has stated that he will face the position, and that tho~e enterprises which ~rE' not paying will be cl arced down. It is a great. pity they were m·er entered upon.

Mr. COLLINS: The British Empire was not hnilt up by men of your stamp.

'\Ir. TAYLOR: And the British Empire would soon be pulled down to the ground if we had a grea.t many men of the stamp of t.ho hon. member.

OPPOSITION MEMBEHS: Hear, hear!

Mr. TA YLOR: I auite bclievf' that-. had it not been for the Treasurer, the present

action of the Government would not have been taken. I will give the hon. gentleman credit for that.

Mr. CLAYTON: He put t-he whip ovec them.

Mr. TAYLOR: We would otherwise have proceeded for a year or two continuing to. lose money.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Why not shut down on the subsidies and bonuses that are granted to agricultural industries through­out Australia?

.:VIr. BRAND: We get very little of them.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Thev are all losses in other States.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! Order ! I would ask hon. members to allow the hon. member for Windsor to continue his speech without interruption and thus give the " Hansard " reporting staff an oppor­tunitv of reporting it. I would also a"k hon. n1ernhers to conduct their conversations in a. less audible tone or to withdraw from the Chamber.

HmwuRABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. 'l'A YLOR : We do not desire to see anv of the subsidies or bonuses which are gntnted to encourage agricultural production in Australia withdrawn.

A GoVERNllENT MEMBER: Then why not aid mining?

Mr. TAYLOR: The granting of a bonus to encourage an agricultural industry like the cotton industry considerably aids the building-up of a most important industry. We are probably going to establish one of the best industries in the State and it appliej similarly to other industries. What assisted the sugar industry to occupy the position it occupies to-day, when it is supplying the whole of the people of the Commonwealth of Australia? Why, the assistance that thia and other Governments gave to it. No one can argue the same way in connection with mining. We all know that, especially in so far as 111etalliferous mining is concerned~ there is a time when the mine will peter otit. Agricultma! production will go on for ever, like Tennyson's brook. When we reach a stage such as we have with our sugar pro-· cluction, and are able to supply the needs of the people of Australia, we have to look around to see if we can find some use for the b,·-products of the industry. No one in Australia would object to the Government giving a bounty of £5,000 or £10,000 to industries dealing with the by-products of sugar. If those industries proved a failure. we should have the satisfaction of knowing that they could not be made a success. By bonuses and other methods of encouragement being granted to the agricultural industries. it is possible so to establish them in the· State that they will survive when long dry periods arrive, as has been the case during· the past twelve months. We are all very hopeful that the drought period will soon pass away.

Mr. COLLINS: You didn't complain about the grant that was given to the Mount Morgan Company to help private enterprise.

Mr. TAYLOR: There were special circum­stances associated with the assistance the Government gave to the Mount Morgan Company.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : So long as the :57 help private enterprise it is all right.

lrTr" Taylor.]

1328 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] SuppTy.

Mr. TA YLOR : That money did not help private enterprise one scrap, because the company has made a loss ever since.

Mr. OOLLINS: Why didn't you condemn the grant?

Mr. TAYLOR: There were special cir­cumstances associated with the grant to the Mount M01·gan Company. We know that the Government had an expensive railwav runmng to Mount Morgan, also that the people of the township were absolutely dependent on the running of the mine.

Mr. COLLINS: So they were at Ohillagoe.

Mr. TAYLOR: Not until this Government boomed it. The Government have been •responsible for the growth of a nnmper of mushroom towns in North Queensland. The township of Mount Morgan was thoroughly established, and there was nothing else for those people to look to for a living apart from the mine. But the Government cannot .go on subsidising Mount Morgan. Unless a very great change takes place in the near future with regard to Mount Morgan, the Government cannot continue the subsidy.

There are four pages in the report of the Auditor-General ·dealing with the State 1.-melters at Ohillago·e that are enough to make one ill. I know nothing more damag­ing to a Government department than those four pages, which show not only the losses but the existence of inefficiency, and it would be very difficult to find a more severe indictment of inefficient Government control. I certainly consider that the Auditor-General, in the report he has sub­mitted to Pa•rliament in connection with these trading ventures, has done the State a very good service. I am as patriotic a Queenslander or Australian as any member of this House, and I say I hope that during the coming year we shall have better results. But the figures that we have had so far do not forecast that. However, things may happen which may improve the position very materially, and everyone here should do the very be't he possibly can to redeem the present financial position and get the Strttc into a solvent condition. W o are putting through a Bill whicn is imposing further hardships and further taxation on quite a number of mempers of the community.

Mr. CoLLINS: A few members of the com­munity.

lVIr. TA YLOR : I do not know about a few when you haYe to pay " ten bob"' when you " peg" out. It seems to me that that gf'ts cver~7bod:v sooner or later.

Mr. OOLLINS: Your party impoccd a poll tax of 10s.

l\lh-. TAYLOR: They did not put a tax of " ten bob" on you when you were -dead. The only a Yenuc the 'I'reasurer has missed is the birth certificate. Ho should haYe put another 103. on at birth .. md then he would have got a few more thousand pounds. and that would haY0 been about the end of the section.

::1tr. O'KEEI-tE (Chilluuoe): I v-...a.f' \·cry much intncsted in the remarks of the Treasurer. As mmnbcr for Ohillagoe, I can speak on behalf of the working miners of that district, and I thank the Treasurer for th" guarantee he has given to the mining industry in the Ohillagoe electorate. He has practically told the country that it is the intention of the Government to continue a

[Jir. 1'aylcr.

policy of smelting at the Ohillagoe State smelters. I consider he is doing the right thing in having a full investigation of the whole expenditure in connection with Ohil­lagoe, because the miners there do not wish the Government to waste public money, and then sooner or later bring about a cessation of work in the Chillagoe mines.

I was also intere ted in the remarks of the LC'ader of the Opposition, and, as a mart YYho has lived at Irvinebank in the Ohillagoe electorate for twenty years, I would like to point out that the Etaternents the hon. gentle­tnan Inade this n1orning. in regard to a number of miners sending tin ore past the Irvinebank State works into Herberton to b~ crushed are absolutely incorrect. I have known only one instance in my long experi­ence as a resident of Irvirrebank where such a thing has occurred. That was in the case of two miners, McGill and Fraser, and that was the case that the Leader of the Opposi­tion quoted this morning, although he did not mention names. During his visit to the Chillagoc electorate at the by-election I know a complaint was made to him or to his party by these men, because, when I was addressing an open-air meetmg at Herberton a few days afterwards, Mr. Fraser inter­jected. "\Vhv are the State works making a. greater charge for the cru5hing of stone?" I made it mv business when at Irvinebank to inYf''.,tigate' the matter, and the accountant at the St.ate works told me that the average Ctlst of cmshing stone at the State treatment works was 25s. 4d. per ton, while the cost at Hcrberton was 28 ·. a ton. In every industTy you have complaints and at every battery vou have dissatisfaction, and I would hke to ;lraw attention to a little matter that Mr. Theodore. when he first entered this Parlia­ment, brought up in connection .with the dis­content that oxisted in conncctwn w1th the Great ::'o!orthern mill at Herberton. A Royal C()n1n1ission was appointeD to investigate the \d10k matter, and the report of the _Royal C'orrnnission, vvhich is to be found :;n the library, was to the effect that the charges made by Mr. Theodore were correct. For months and months men mining in that loculitv had been sending their ore rig-ht past t'he doer of the Gro»t J\iorthern mill out to Ininebank and to Silver Valley.

Even to-day. although there is a private mill established at Silver Valley, there are llll'll \V}1o arc sending their stone ri~ht past that mill into Herbcrton because they arc dissatisfied yvith the treatment. I am not inferring that there is any ?ishoncsty,_ but anvone who is conversant vvtth tho m1n1~g industry and knows the value of ~tone w1ll

realise that men get exCited when L12.30 p.m.] they ha Ye what they cons1der

to be a decent claim. Every day they are bringing up stone their eye only catches the very rich portion of the ore, and does not come in contact with the poorer classes of ore thev arc breaking, and. they think their stone" should realise a greater Yaluc than it actually does when it goes through the mill. They are na.turally dissatis­fied with the return, and they blamc the treatment plant o1· some person for it. That is the case at Irvinebank. I know the man to whom the Leader of the Opposition was referring. He was up against the trcatme1_1t works at Irvinebank, therefore he got h1~ partner to take the stone into Herberton to trv to discredit the whole of the workings at tl{e State mill at Irvinebank.

&tpply. [22 OC'.rOBER.] Supply. 1329

Mr. MoORE: They got better returns.

Mr. O'KEEFE: The hon. gentleman does not always get the truth about these matters. I have no desire to mislead the Committee. I want to be fair, and I am speaking with long years of experience. \V e find discon­tent even on the part of the cream suppliers to factories, and the same thing exists in the mining industry. Men make a mistake in their values. They have a very crude method of sampling their ores. They take a shovel, for instance, and put a handful of crushed ore in and wash it in a little water, and then decide what percentage that ore will go. \Vhen it goes to an asstty office it is quite a different thing, and that causes dis­content. I can assure the Committee that this is one of the causes of discontent in the case of the party sending stone past Irvine­bank to Herberton which has been referr.ed to.

I would like to make reference to the charges in the Auditor-General's report again"t the State treatment works with re­gard to firewood, which the Leadn of the Opposition brought up this morning. I have been connected with that transaction. and I claim that tho Auditor-General is wrowr in making the charge against the Stat~ treatment works. It should have been a charge ag;:;inst the Mines Department. It was the Mme, Department which decided to subsidise the Vulcan tin tributers. That mine is not connected with the State works. but is a private concern. \Vo applied as 'hareholdors and J.ributers in that mine to the GoYernmcnt for some assistance to re­open thP mine_, which had been closed during the war penocl. \V e were successful in getting that assistance, and for some reason or other after an interval of ei<rht or nine years this thing crops up as a ch;rge against the State treatment worb at Irvincbank. \Vith all due respect to the Auditor-General, wherever he got his information from it is inco.rrect. This should not be a charge agamst the State treatment works but against the Mines Department. '

An 0PPOSITIOX :YIEMBER: You blame the Auditor-General's report in that connection. and say that it is not correct?

Mr. O'KEEFE: Yes.

. Mr. <;'•)LLIJ>;S: Surely the Auditor-General 1s not mfallible. is he?

Mr. O'KEEFE: I am satisfied the A.uditor­General "as not up thoro. He knows~ nothing about 1t, and has got inform..ttion which makes the position of In·in0bank look a lot worse than it is.

Reference has also been made to certain assets at Chillagoc. I am prepared to say that !hat part of the Auditor-General's report also 1s mcorrect. There was supposed to be £26,000 worth of ore m the Lad,· J ane mine, and that sum \\·as regarded as an asset by the manager; but to-c!a, it has been written off owing to the fact that the Government. cons1der. that tho mine is in too dangerous a cond1t10n to JUStify them continuing opera­tions. They ha.ve ceased to work the two n~mes at JYiungana for some months. Neverthelr's between twenty-five and thirh miners arc making a living out of the Lad:.­J ane mme, and they are doing it out of the £26,000 worth of ore which the manager reported to be. there. The:, are taking the j'ull re~pons1 b1hty, and are taking their lives m then hands. They are assuming a risk which the Government were not prepared to

1926-4 >f

run. The Government were not p1·epared to continue mining operations against the advice of the inspector for the sake of the lead there; but, if the men chose to take the risk, that "as their affair and not the Go­vernment's. Therefore I contend that the management was entitled to ca.lculate the ore in that mine as an acset. If the Auditor­General thinks otherwise, let him do so.

Then there is the writing-off of the value of the flue-dust. I believe that at present a private concern at Cloncurry is writing to the general manager proposing to sell a certain t·Qnnage of. flue-dust to the Chillag;oe smelters, and that fact proves that a private concern considers that it has some value.

During the we<'k certain questions have been put to the Secretary for ::\J:inPs by members of the Opposition. They are quite justified in putting those questions if they rhink there is anything wrong up there; but I notice that thev arc cnrious about certain 6lags and what" they call " dumps " at Irvinebank, and they seem to have a 'snout" on Mr. Reid. I know Mr. Reid well. and I would take his word just as soon as I would accept that of any member in this Chamber. He ha' done wonderful work for the mining industry in the Korth, and I hope that he will be in a position to continue it.

Mr. BRAND: He has got a good deal out of the Government.

:\Ir. O'KEEFE: The suggestion seems to be that some dishonestv exists. If hon. mem­bers thinks so, I welcome anv information th,,· can bring into this Chamber in regard to :\lr. Reid and his work at Irvinebank and C'hillagoe. I am prepared to assist them in every way to get information, if they can put me on its track. I want the position cleared up, and I think the miners of rho Chillagoe electorate also wish to see it cleared up.

.:\Ir. KEL'iO: Whose fault was it that the Lady J a ne mine gol into Buch a bad state?

Mr. O'KEEFE: If the hon. member knew anything about mining ana the condition of things up there. he would not be so foolish as to ask that question. Evidently he knows nothing a bout the business. For many years that mine \vas on fire, which meant tho reduction of the sulphides and other matter to dust, so t.hat the whole mine was nothing but one big cave. That explains the losses which the Government have oxperiencPd.

:\fr. KELSO: They paid £40,000 for it.

:Mr. O'KEEFE: And thc•v recovered more than £40,000. The actm,l "amount paid in cash was £6,000; tho rest came out of royalty on ore sent to the Chillagoc c.rnclt.er<.

lion. nw1nbcrs opposite do 11ot know any­thing about the .accusations they ar<J pre­pared to thro" across the floor of the Cham b"r reflecting upon the honesty of the peopl0 working at Chillagoe. I hope the Leader ot the Opposition will accept my statement ir< connection with the miners cJ Ininebank ta.king their ores to Herberton, because what the hon. member has said is incorrect and is a slur on the industrv. It creates an nnsatisfactor;t pc~cition fo; the rnanager of lhf' mill, who is well known to mE'. and whom I know to be a capable and hard working n1an. If eYery person '''or king for the StCLte gave the service that is given by the manager of the State treatment works at I>·':inchank. •nobody would haYe cause for complaint. The miners are given cheapel'

JJ1r. O'Keefe.]

133(1 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

rates of crushing than arc given by any battery in the North to-day.

The Auditor-General mentions that the price of tin has reached £380 per ton-a price that it has never reached. The figure should be £300 per ton. I quite agree with him that the miners who have had the bene fit of a low rate for crushing at the State treatment works at Irvinebank should bD prepared to pay more on the advance of tin. They should be prepared to do that in order to prevent a loss being incurred which probably will mean the closing down of the battery.

I do not think it necessar:: at this stage for me to say anything more in connection with Chi!lagoe. Certain remarks were directed to dumps that had been taken from Irvinebank to Chillagoe. It is generally understood that dumps represent the rubbish taken from the mine, but it is quite different in this case. It is about thirty-five years since the smelters dosed down, and lead at that time was worth only £10 per ton. Con­sequently, the miners had to pick out the very best, place it on packhorses, and send it miles and miles to Port Douglas to be shipped to Germany and other places. That meant that the rich ore was taken and tho rest dumped. To-day those dumps, which an. yielding· 10 per cent. to 15 per cent. lead. and 1 oz. of silver to a unit of lead, are better than any mine in :'\orth Queens­land. The ore has not to be mined. It is only a matter of cheap transport, which Mr. Reid has intl'oduecd by way of motor traffic. It is only a matter of lifting it fnnn the ground, placing it on the tran1way, and sending it to Chillagoe. There is only a small profit to be made out of it; never theless, Mr. Reid is prepared to carry on the undertaking so long as there is a small profit. I want to impress on hon. members opposite that these dumps are not the usual dumps of rubbish, but low-grade ore eel aside 1nany years ago when values were low. Lead is now fetching £32 per ton.

Mr. MORGAN (.11uri//u): We arc very pleased to know that the miners in the Chillagoe district are not desirous of the Government continuing a work in that locality at a loss; but it is a great pity that the miners did not express that opinion some years ago. A sum of £1,826.000 of the taxpayers' money has been lost at Chillagoe, and it is time that the miners displayed a little conscience and admitted that the.) have received a very big benefit indeed.

Mr. PEASE: Don't forgBt that we subsidised Mount Morgan.

Mr. MORGAN: I realise that, no matter what losses are sustained, the miners in Chillagoe or the workers in any other part of Queensland and Australia will advocate the continuance of operations which keep them in employment, so long as the Govern­ment or the industry in which they are engaged will continue to find the money to enable them to be continued. I also realise that business men with interests in Chi)lagoe, whose busmess has been sustained because public money has been expended in this manner, will protest against the Government interfering with or closing the works which have kept them in a profitable position. The same remarks apply to Mount Morgan o,r any other mining field. So long as the Government are prepared to spend the monev of the taxpayers to keep the industry going,

[Mr. O'Keefe.

so long will the people in the d1strict support the GoYernment because they are benefiting by the expenditure of public funds.

\Vhile I am dealing with the mining ques­tion, I wish to draw the attention of the Committee t.o the arsenic mine in the Stan­thorpe district, and to what is happening there. The arsenic mine, after operating for several years, has proved a failure, like most of the enterprises controlled or con­ducted b,- the Secretan- for :\fines. That hon. gent.leman has no~v come to the con­elu,ion that this mine is no longer necessary, and it is to be closed down. \Ve find that the arsenic on hand has cost an enormous sum. The report of the Auditor-General discloses that 44 tons of arsenic from this mine have been sold siucp 30th June, 1925, n•alising £1,514. The cost to despatch that consignment amountAd to £1,042. That is to say, £1,500 worth of arsenic was sold, and it cost £1.000 to place it on the railway to be forwarded to its destination. That is equal to £23 per ton. Prior to the mine being opened prickly-pear selectors purchased· arspnic at £10 per ton. The cost of despatch­mg dus arscmc was, therefore. very much grc•ater than it could originally be purchased· for by the selectors. It is time that the Treasurer awakened to the fact and gave u:;structiom that this state of affairs shall not continue.

Several hon. members last night achocated the flotation of an educational loan to bring our school buildings into an up-to-date condi­tion. and to make them more comfortable for the education of our children. One hon. n:c•mb0r suggested that £2,000,COO should be rarmarked for this purpose. The <tmount that has bef'n lost in State enterprises could h,•':c completed this work.

;\lr. CoLLIXS: Look at the £400,000,000 that \Yas \Va~it"tl by Australia on the war! That r·lOill':- cou1d have been usefully spent in d,•,·p)opmental work.

:\I . .\IORC.L\X: The million, of pounds that h:1vc been \YasteJ on our railw.1ys f'ould ha Vf' locked (~Yery river ill Queensland, v:hr-rca~ 've hr. ve not one shilling to shoVI for thr- n:penclit.nrc of that money. In the Tren·;arer's Financial Statement and in the Licutcnant-Governor"s opening speec-h it was claimed that thP losses on our railwavs were rnai~ly due to the existing drought o~ving to tllP fact that our railways had (o carrv stock and fodder at reduced. rates. The Opposi­hon mn.de t-hree separate attempts to secure the exact figures, but the issue was dodged by tlw GoYermncnt on each occasion. When the figurps were fiually disrlo~ed we found rho lo's sushined through the reduced rates ""as a paltry £25,000. That amount was 1wg·ligible in comparison ,-ith tlw £1,800.000 rnilwa:: clefic;t for the vear. Yet the Trea­sm·Pr was able to delud·e not onlv a number of JWO]Jle in the country but in 'many cases fb~ pn s~. hc·cause continually the~ press n,fca0d to t-he fact that the Government had lo't a tremendous amount on the rail­\Va,Ys brr11.use thoy carried starving stoek and fodder at reduced rates. No>·· that we hav- the true fi,-ures that fallacy should be ~iven thP fnllPst. publicit7 thr~ughout tbe ,,tote•. Harl thn droug-ht not occurred. the Govcrn 1Tt('nt \VDulrl not have had to carrv tho"· thnue,ands and thOIISfl!lrJS of tons o'f fodder. which produced a revenue to the railway amounting to millions of pounds.

Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1331:

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC \VoRKS: You t.alk about revenue and do not allow for cxvcnditurc.

JHr. ].10RGAN: According to the Trea­surer, everything carried on our railways is carried at a loss, including passengers. On th;. t basis th<> only way our railways will P"J is to convey nothing at all.

Mr. PEASE: Did you see where the City Council are closing down the Belmont tram­way?

::VIr. J\IORGAN: No one can den,· that t.he principal reason for the losses on our railways was because the Government were compelled at the muzzle of the pistol to increase wages and reduce the hours of work to forty-four. Had the Treasurer disclosed the truth to the public, he would have admitted t·hat. The whole of the members on the other side as well as the Cabinet are to blame, because thf' matter was settled in caucus, '"-hero it \Yas decided to give way to the railwav men. \Ve know that fares and freight.s ·have been increased from 75 per cent. to lOO per cent. during the period the Government have been in powor, but, notwithstanding those large increases in freights and fares, the loss is continually increasing.

The more the Gov0rnment increase the fares and freights the greater seems to be the loss. Fares and freights have been in­creased to such an extent that the time has n rrived \vhen n1otor conveyances can com­pete successfully with the railways. We know that motor 'buses are able to carry paswngers at. a lower rate than the railway.

The SEf'RETAHY FOR PCTBLIC \VoRKS: They a.re closing down the railways in :\'ew Zea­land,

::\lr. :MORGAN: \Ye know that motor­lorries can convey goods from Brisbane to Ipswich much more satisfactorily and cheaper than they can carry goods over the rn,ilway. The cost of running the railways has become so great that, in,tead of the railways being a b('nefit. they r,re becoming a burden to the communitv. It is time the Treasurer took a hand in the matter with a view to seeing wlwthcr he cannot agoin restore the railways U> the state they were in prior to the present Government taking control, when they were of benefit to the people and it paid the people to use them. To-day it is a disad­Yantage to use the railways owing to the excessive chargns. I am plea 'ed to know that the Government are endeavouring to face the position in that regard.

We have lost over £1,000.000 on State sta­tions. and th" Government have now decided to sell them. \Vhy are they not able to get rid of them? Because the prices asked are so high and the rentals payable so heavy that people will not pay them. The cattle on thC'sc stations should be sold at the highest market value, but the stations t.!1emselves should not be sold. The Department of Public Lands should pay the State Enter­prises Department the value of the improve­ments on the State stations. and then the stations should be cut up and opened for selection. If that wPre done, the department would get the value of the improvements back from the selectors. Instca.rl of doing that, the State Enterprises Departm<'nt wants to get the full value of the impronments. and the Department of Public L:>.nds will not

takJ the stations over beca us.o the;- will have to allow the State Enterprises Department. the yaluc of the i~nprovcrnents.

At 2 p.m.,

Mr. F. A. CoOPER (IJrerner) resumed the chair.

Mr. SWAYNE (Jiirani): I wish to give the Treasurer credit for his very candid con­fe;;,ion of failure-in fact I think it might ver'; well be handed down to posterity as o.. ;:ocanta tion-in regard to socialistic ven­tur s. There arc various enterprises in which very grave mistakes have been made and large l<A,ses incurred. The Leader of the Opposition dealt full:7 with the Chillagoe venture. I have nothing to add to what he said, except to say that so long as the l:pper House was in existence it saved Queensland from great misfortune : and this and rnanv other events which have occurred since the" abolition of the Legislative Council give point to the contention that Queensland would be infmitely better off to-day if the second Chamber had been maintained; at any rate, the a.ction of the Upper House has been justified by results.

The Treasurer dealt with the sugar indus­try, which more directly concerns myself, and be ascribed the failure of some of the mills to the fact that in the first instance· the mills were placed in a wrong locality. l\'orth Eton is one of the mills which he quoted. If the Government had taken the advice of hon. members on this side the pr"sent position would have been obviated. They have had a struggle at North Eton. through the inadequate supply of cane. \Vhcn it was announced that the Colonial Sugar Refining Company's mill at Home­bush was to be removed. I remember well going to the then Treasurer and pointing out that there was an opportunity at last to place !he North Eton mill on a sound footing. The whole trouble "as the small cane snpply, and it was desired to acquire part of the Homebush area which belonged geographicall:: to North Eton. All it required almost to double the supply of cane was an expenditure of £20,000 on a connect­ing tramline. That would have increased the quantity by full>;· 33 per cent., and would have placed the mill on a sound footing. lUy advice w<ls not taken. That is on! v another instance of the evil of the party system, under which any sugges­tion which the Opposition make, no matter hmv good it may be, carries no weight with the Government. This is one of the mistakes which has occurred, and, unless the farmers t·ake the rrill on, it is to be shut down. If my suggestion had been adopted, North Eton could have been as successful as anv other milL The trouble is that under f'tate management none of these mills has 5een a success. Of course, I am a.ware that the sugar industry is now in the midst of a crisis, and that, owing to over-production and the drop in the world's prices affecting the surplus sugar which has to be sold out­side :\ustralia, we are in very difficult times; but, in spite of that, there are mills which are paying. This is just an iwta.nce of how private enterprise can succeod where State enterprise fails. For instance, I think that last year the N ambour mill, which is privately owned, paid over £9.000 in interest and redemption and, in addition, a 7~ per cent. dividend. Government-owned mills cannot do that. In the Mackay district we·

Mr. 8wayne.]

1332 Supply. [ASSE:>IBLY.] Supply.

h ,.c a mill only 4~ miles from the North Eton mill-the :VIarian mill-which has been abk to carcr on succcssfullv. At Plane Crt~~k. aho in ~nv l'lPctorate and~ co~operati.,.-ely O\Yned. they an; able to pay their v~ay a1_1d, in addition launch out in a direction wluch i~ o·cneralh: l'GCOg!li8cd 'flS being e:;<sential in all ~manuf<t~ctnring-that. is, the utilisation of by-product.-. 'l')l<tt ,mill is co·operative~y c.m'rolled, and It IS the first to embark m the manufacture of industrial alcohol so <~.s to help to tide it over the dif!iculties of the present. position and thus add to the number of enterpris~-; which arc' carrying on with ,ever .... ~ prospe~t of surccss.

Bu1. after all, the main thing the public have to karn from: what has been brought t<l a head this morning in this Chamber by tlw Treat~urer's qtatement is how they have been gulled into living in a fool's paradise during the last elcYcn years by specious pro­mi<es .tbont Socialism. It is interesting to read Rll •"xtract from a publication issued from the Government Printing Office by this Labour Government in 1918, when they first b··g-an to set the pace to ruin. In a book entitled, "Socialism at Work-Results of ·lw \'i"orking of Various State Enterprises Established by the Queensland Government," we read on the title pagF this general intra· ctuctiou-

" How the Queensland Government succeeded in profitably establishing State venture·, "hero the needs of the people called for State competition or a State rnonopoly."

I emphasis(' the word "succeeded." First of n11. let me quote a :entencc with reference tu the policy of thf' Government-

" A bold, yet cautious, policy of col· l ecti vn enterprise is being made succe,sful bec,nsc each problem is approached with an open-minded desire to first ascer· lain all the surrounding facts."

forg-ot a very important fact-the chief of alL in spite of all that we have heard

-thP· fact that Strrte management cannot compete with that of the efficient nrivate or c>oporative body. Here is another state-

" Precisclv ·the same mca.ns for in· erca"""ing cfficioney and economv cannot he adopted successfully in any two trades. The principles of Socialism can be

pplied only according to the individual facts of each industry."

Th 'Y have been applied, and we know what h~.s happened. On page 32 we read this remark about the State stations-

" Other factors contributed to make the ec.ta.blishmenf of State-owned stations cle6irabl0 and beneficial from the stand· point of the general community."

I think the>' have lost £1.000.000. That is ,h' be! cfit the community have expericn~ed. Ill th0 first plac<e, it ,,, ~s al!e[!:ed that they \YPl'<' going to supply the State butcher shops with meat to be , old cheaply to the people. I think I am right in saying that not more than hY'O or three mobs of bullocks from the State stations ever went to the State shops. In nF ov n district the State shons were buv­ing· their supplies from thn saffie source as priYate butrhcrs-from private station-owners. Di11Dlah. which WJS to be the fnttenin~T depot ,,.i,crc bullocks wem to be topped off after c 'ming- fron1 r1ist,ant stntiorJ.~. hus been snb­(11·\-iJcd into sheep properties. Dealing with

[ Jlr. Swayne.

the fish-catching industry, this publication states-

" The State desires to provide cheap fish for the whole population of Queens­land by abolishing the profits of t~nnoces­s.trv middlemen, and bv perfcctmg the cha:nnels of trade as betwe,~n the catcher and the consumer.

" The State desires to expand the fish­catching industry by so stimulating con­sumption and breaking down barriers as bchYccn producer and consumer. that the fisherman will be able to rely upon ahva\ ~ obtaining a r,emunorative price for his catch, which he cannot ·do now."

There is a great deal more about that indus­try, but I shall have oome re!l'ard for the feelings of hon. m em hers opposite.

In connection with the State's mining ven­tur·es, the publication states-

" The control of the public administra­tion of Queensland by the Labour party has been followed bv preparation for a vigorous policy of mining enterprise by the Government."

\Ye know that some of the State coal is cUI·s.ed bv the drivers and firemen on our raihYays." The publication further states-

" The policy of the Government throughot[t is-

(1) To supply its own needs; (2) To develop natural resources

which private enterprise, because of lack of capital, or other reasons, has hitherto neglected; and

(3) To push forwar'd the output of metals urgently needed by the Imperial Government."

The hon. rr,entleman who was then in charge of affairs 1nade prolin1inary arrangement"!, f?r the supply of larg-o parcels of copper to tne Imperial Government, hut not a ton was sent. That is described here as bomg an accomplished fact. \Ye have the finale to tha7 " accomplishment" before us to-day. The publication further states-

" The Cabinet had demonstrated a determination to develop the undoubtedly prolific iron rcsourcn of Queensland .... The Queensland State Government require,; considerable quantities of iron and steel for qso in railway workshops and for other purposes. The Govern­ment. enabling the money spent on these cla,ses of material to be kept within the State ;md whatever profit accrues from producing them to find its way to the public Treasury, will confer a benefit of far-reaching consequences upon the whole cmnmunity."

Profit on the Bowen iron and steel works! Here \Ye haYc <<Dormous sums of money expended on foolish fads when it was urgent!~ required in man) other drrecbons .. \Ve are paving a high ratP, of inter·cst for th1s money, ancl the burden must inevitably be handed clown to the children of the future.

In connection with the sugar industry it was intended to wipe out the Colonial Sugar Refining Corrpany and place t.he whole manufacture of sugar in the hands of the Government. They were going to take over everything in the sugar industry from the refiner;cs do;-m to the raw sugar mills. We know that, so far as wiping out the Colonial Sugar Refining Company is concerned, they

Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supplj. 1333

are depending largely on t.hc assi:;tance of the company in whatever transactions they have in ~ugar. So far as the success of the Government as ra v. -sugar n1illers is con­cerned, wo had tho result told to us this morning by the Treasurer, when he said that ihe Government had t.o get out of most of the mills they own at the present time, and that half of the Goverument sugar-mills will be shut down unlc .• s someone else takes them on.

It iR very funny to read '" Socialis1n at \Vork," and contrast the glo·,ving promises that were then made v.·ith the actual results to-drLy. 1;nfortunatcly large number'· of voters not only in Quecmsland but in other parts of tho world ·.·.·ere deluded and led a>tra:. by this publication. A few tons of the puLlication wore taken over to vVestern Australia during the eleCtious there) and a fcvv n1ore tons \Yerc forwarded to Great Bril.lin and circulated during the elections there among the Socialists and Communists. It \Vas quoted as an accornplishccl suceesti, as something that had been done in Queens­land. I ont hope the electors will profrt bv 'Uch a lesson. and that thev will realise h~w foolish theY have been in depending on the promises that have been made by this GoYcrnrnent in timE"' past, a,nd also rcrc1ember t.hat. if the large amounts of money th«t han: be"n lost in these enterprises had been expended in de,-elopmental projects in yarious waye great good to Qucensbnd would haYo resulted.

I certainlv believe that we shall hear very littic of Socialism from the lips of ho~. mcmben opposite in future. It is rather interusting to tho outsider to surmise ·what is the po.·ition of t-he part:· it<elf, and how the Trcqsurer. v.ho this mornint; turned dovn Socialism lock. stock, and barrel, will get on with the extreme collccti vists •,itting behind him. such as the hon. members for :\1aryborough, Fitzroy, a,nd Bowcn. It. will also be interesting to know whether the hon. gentleman who is at the hcacl of the Govern­ment can make any pretensions to be 'erionslv regarded if he continues to sign thr socwlistic obj ccti'. e in face of what he has told this Commit.tee. If there ever was a recantation n1adc, it ''as 1nado this morn­ing by the Trca8urer, and, speaking as a candid friend, I commend this question to their consideration. It. is their trouble, not our"~.

:M:r. G. P. lL\RKES (H'ancick): It is not often that this Comm;ttee has listened to what it did this morning. It was pract.icallv told that the country ,-ab in a sorry plight.

Mr. W \RREX: He did not tell us half the1 truth, either.

:Jh. G. P. BARKES: That. is so; the whole of the truth has not b·; anv means been told. It wiil L<ke a long time for the truth to be to!·!. The Treasurer this morning told this C'ommittoe rrnd the country just wha,t the (lpposition have been telling the Govcrn­rnent for n1any, rrrany years; but what we haYe said has fallen on deaf ears. Now, to con1e along after cleY~;n vears and listen to what the Treasurer dc<c,ribco as a truth­ful st.atcment of the position regarding many things i·~ rathPr illurninating.

Nir. FoLEY: The same old stor;·-" I told yon so! "

:VIr. G. P. BARNES: It would not matter a rap if hon. m<'mbers opposite were the

only sufferers, but when th" whole com­muiJity suffers, it is a matter deserving oi severe comment. From that point of view it is not pleasing to have to turn round and say, "\Ve told you so."

The Treasurer is to be complimented on one thing. Anybody can sec that he has hE'en fighting a hard case. He must have studied the ljUCstion very hard and whipped l1is courage up to tell us and the country what he told us this morning. How different that speech read from the speeches that were made six months ago! At that time buoyant 0xprcssions of optimism were prevalent­copious promises of what would be carried out. VIe then hc•D"rcl how high stood the credit of the land, and all that sort of thing. How different and how difficult it must haYe becu to broadcast a speech such as the Trea­surer made here this morning. It required more than ordinary courage to make it. l can quite nnderst.wd the plea made by the bon. gentleman, " Tell it not in Gath; pub­lish it not in the streds of Askalon." How dif!icult it -wa, for the GoYernmcnt to find out what we on this side of the Chamber !ut Y0 been idling them for years would ha pp en : :'\m. they come to us and say. " Be good f<'llm1 s : In tho interests of the countr: do not sa, one word." \Vc c:J.nnot do that, because ·stern and startling facts haxe been referred to, and there ifl- danger in the situation. \Vc have had a broad adn1ission rC'g·arding the failure of this enter­prise, that enterprise, and the other enter­prise. I am thankful we have not to foot the bill for that other Bowcn enterprise. Hrrc is a -:\11nistry who have learned many things, and this is the sorry and alarming part about it. They know heaps of money 11ave been wasted and that all these State L'nterprisc-~ ha ye been a failure, but the Trc.tsnrcr this morning indicated that, although there had bDen those failures, he was not disheartened-that there were other a venues to be tried, and tried and tried again. That very pronouncement calls for all the criticism that this side of the Chamber can bring to bear. I remember years ago when Mr. Theodore made a similar appea,] to this Chamber to that which was made this morning. Every hon. member was then rcad0 to throw in his every effort to assist. There "as just cause for that admission, and since then we haYc had waste upon waste. and failure upon failnre. Can any­body imagine that, when this Government went to the countn· in May last they were ignorant of the true rendition of affairs'? That could not have been so. They are re·,ponsible for concealing the true condition of affairs, and the, no" appeal to this Com mittoe to help them to cloak their failure,; of the pllst.

I shall quote a portion of the policy speech of the Prernier-

" MAKAGE>TE:-!T OF FIXAKCES.

" One of the charges often levelled against the Goyern1ncnt i~ tho charge of loo,,t)ncss and irresponsibility in adminis­tration of the finances. Thcro is no subject more grossly misrepresented than this by the Tory prno. Pre-.uming upon their readers' sup11osed ignorance of the facts thPv twist, pcn·ert, and falsifv to such a degree, that they make white appear black and <ucccss look like failure."

That w.ts the bold stand taken by the Premier when he and his party went to the

JL1·. G. P. Bar;:'s.l

'!33! Supply. [ASSEl\1BLY.] Supply.

countrv, and other hon. members opposite used the same tools, although they must have known the facts and figures. The truth was before them that the State enterprise~ "'tlre a rank failure. They knew all about the mines. They knew that this amount, that amount, and the other amount had been written off; yet they go to the country with a statement like that! A few minutes ago, looking at the empty front benches opposite, the thought came to my mind that possibly, as a result of the Treasurer's statement this morning, the Cabinet retired to consider the situation. They might well retire to consider the situahon. The) have landed the country in the moss it is in to-day, and it i·s time for them to comider the position in the interests of the country, and certainly, ·if the Treasurer puts into effect what he stated this morning, there is a degree of 'hope. The part} have been " sooled" on froill time to time to spend money in this direction, that direction, and the other. That <Jtatement m a de b:c the Premier last year .,-cad·· Ycry differently to the Ycry short state­ment h,c made yestenlay. According to the '" Dail:v l\1a il " of .this morning, the rrreasurcr yestf ,·clay, in dealing with the Go\'Crnrnent's offer to sell the Gin Gin mill to the sugar­.gro\Yer.,, ;;;aid-

" He '.~·ould not alter hL; decision to cease operations. for the circum:;:;tancos had recently compelled the decision. 'fhe CioYernment could not continue to plav the part of the hir:c godmother. After all, the people who participated in pro­fits should also Le:u a share of losses. He did not wish the Gin Gin mill to go ont of commission, and was prepared to meet. the growers if they had any pro-posrhon to subnrit." ,

'Circumstances, he stated. had really com­pelled the decision, These circumstances have been growing for yr-ars, vet the Trea­surer wen~ to the country and represented the conditiOn of the finance-; as being totallv ·different. •

I am not going to attempt to deal with the losses on the mines or the losses on State enterprises generally. These points have been .coYerecl well by other hon. members, and they have been admitted by the Treasurer, so we shall take all that as a thing that is settlod and done with, but, generally speak­mg, we may take it that the finances generally in every department are identical With what has been disclosed in connection with mining and other ventures. Here is a serious bit of ruding in the Auditor­General's report-

" OVERDRAFT IN COOISOLIDATED REVENUE TO 30TH JUNE. 1926, £985,021 6s. 5d.

" 'The Loan Fund current account is practically carrying this overdraft, and, as the effectivr interest cost of loans which were raised during the period of the deficits mav be taken as not less than 5l per cent., tho present accumu­lated deficits are accountable for an annual charge of £51.713."

[2.30 p,m.]

'.Vo find that money: borrowed to put into repr:oductn:e W?rks IS graduall:.- being used up 1n pg_yn1g 1nterest on Treasurv deficits. ·what ,,jl! people abroad think of monev being LE' d for purposes of that kind? '

:\'Ir. COLLIKS: Have we not got ,assets?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: We have got assets. 'but \VC lwv<• no right to waste them. \Vhat

fJir. G. P. Bon1es.

IS the use of boasting of our financial str,ength and ability to carry on the affairs of the country in .-iew of the position out­lint,d there? On page 4 of the Auditor­GPncral's report it is stated-

" A:~ con1pared with the previous year, the figures for 1925-26 disclose that-

£ Receipt·, increased by 702,462 6 8 Expenditure increased

by 1,274,115 12 10"

Where is the abilitv of the Government to finance the affairs of the country in the face of such a disclosure as that? The Treasurer, when he made his statement, practically asb•d this side to suggest a policy for him. The• Auditor-Gemer.al continues-

" The receipts in 1925·26 from taxation amounted to £4.104,122, equal to £4 15s. 4d. per head of population; for the year en-ded June, 1916. these receipts totailed £1,455.358, or £2 2s. 9d. per head of population, the incr<:.:1sc in ten years being £2,648,764 in roYenue, and £2 12s. 7d. per capita.

" For the financial vear ended 30t 1

June. 1916, the expendit1no on account of departmental and general servic,es was £7 15s. por !wad of population, whereas for the vcar ended 30th June, 1926, the amount \vas £12 16s. 9d.-.c'tll incroa.s0 of £5 ls. 9d .. or 65 per rent. in t-en years. The interest 'J!l the public debt increased from £3 4s. 7rl. per capita in 1915-16 to £5 6'. 4d. in 1825-26, equal to 64 per cent."

I simply quote this tu show that the G?vern­rncnt aro absolntE~lv incon1petcnt to adm1n1:3ter t'nc finances of Hie StatC'. Our fin1nces are ln a drr;t ~ful state. o\ving to the mismanage­ment of the Government.

JHr. PEASE: Do You remember how much ~1r. Theodore made for Queensland when he t1oat'd that loan in America? £750,000.

:\1r. G. P. BARNES; If he did so, it was a good bit of businbs. and he should be romplimented on it; but it was only a drop in the bucket.

The railwaYs were mentioned this morning, and the figc{ros given on page 106 of the Auditor-General's report speak volumes. I quote figures giYing the comparjson between 1916-17 and 1925-26-

-----· I CapiL! Gras' Expenditure. Year. I Invested. ]~arnings.

----'----------- --------'-------1 £

1916-17 I 40,-131,295

1925-25 1 fi7,709,407

£ 3,8±3.1G8

7,437,090

£ 8,007,779

G,-159,792

'I'hp raihYa.ys have produced an enormous rcvNmc. but, no matter what revenue they produce, the expenditure is always gr~aier, The trDuble in connf'ction 'vith our railway revenue is t.hat the people hlwe been in4i­rcctl,\- paying an enorn1ous tax thr?ugh It, Rimply because our tonnage now 1s much the same a:- it was ten or eleven years ago, r"nd we are therefore paying double the railav,e rates that we were paying then. In 1914-15 the tonnage carried was 4,970,873. nncl in 1924-25 it was 5,083,658-practically t.hc same. lt shows that thr Administration is lo,-ying upon the people in every possible

Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. J 335

direction. Not only are we troubled with direct taxation, but also with this indirect taxation on the railways. It all proves that t-he Government are impotent and unable to carry on the affairs of the country.

It is only right to appreciate at its proper v. lue the fateful utterance of the Treasurer this morning. It must have been a hard job to make it. No man can easily summon up the pluck to make a clean breast of things as the hon. gentleman did. Let us hop<' that the members beside him will stand Bhoulder to shoulder with him in carrying out his purpose and not whine, as very likely they will, when this enterprisP and that ent.er­prise is cut out. Again I say that the rogrettabll feature of the Treasurer's utter· ancc, after all the unfortunate experience of the country, is that he is disposed by-and­by to try other forms of State ontr>rprise. That is d,:,plorabie. Leave that to people more able than the Government to can')· out such entm·prise. Let the cobbler stick to his lust, and possibly better remits wi]J follow.

Mr. KERR (Enoggrra): We might be pardoned for describing the speech of the Treasurer us a spec·ch of retribution. I know it does the heart good sometimes to get certain t.hings off your chest, and no doubt the hon. gentleman will be a little happiei for having got that off his chest this morn· ing. Oue would not expect to hear such a SJ1et°Ch from the GovPrnmcnt side, and a 'trang<'r would conclude that a coalit.ion Government were in office. because the Trea snrer ga vC> utterances to sentiments 'vhich have been expressed by the Opposition for the last six years. I agree that harking ba.ek to these t-hings is not going to get the State very far, and that we have the results to tackle; nevertheless we must loo]; for the causes of the present nnsition.

The Tr0asurer suggested t.hat the problems we have to face are world-wdc. Some social problems arc world-wide. and reflect the advancc•ment of any new State; but tho Hnancial problems of Queensland to-dav aro not world-wide problems at all. Thcv are 'local, and the,\ is the way in which we must tacklo the problem. Can anvbody tell me t.hat the problems are not local when thev arf\ <"rented hv ,,uch things as a loss of iiearlv £1.250.000 incurred by Luying stations. hv selling nH at over the counter, by selling ~beer at hotels, and in various other ways?

:!I!Ir. PnASE: By protecting the public.

Mr. KERR : Protection of the public ! If the public loave be0n protected and are happy and contented, how comes it that in a State like this. with the small population ,)[ less than 1.000,000, there has been spent a. sm:.~ of £1.231.000 in snC'couring the poor and unemployed? It indicate's that all is not wr,ll.

!\fr. C'oLLIXS: It is due to the failure of pri' ate enterprise.

Mr. KERR: Where are the benefits and protection for the public? No benefits and no protection are extended to people by sell­ing fish over a counter. All these schemes merely nnsettle the commnnity. The Trea· suror r0marked that it was necessary to have a strrhle community, but it is more important to haw' stable government. We cannot bo.tst of such a thing to-day. Th" people of the State d_..o not know from .day to day just

how theY stand. If we can set up stable Q:ovcrnrn~nt, it is only natural that the people ~vill follow the example.

~,Ir. \'l'mGHT: T.bey should do that in Vic­tm_·ia.

:.Jr. KERR. The Treasurer said th:;tt thev had not cmbarkNI on these ventures m Vic­toria, and <;_onsequently they were able to boa,t of a stable Government.

Mr. ViTINSTANLEY: He said nothing of the kind.

Mr. KERR: The Treasurer stated that V"ictorin. had no-t followed the example of Queensland in embarking on these State ven· turcs. Is it not logical to reason that all tlw industrinl loss and unmnploymcnt are a natural con-scqncncc of these ventures by a socit: lis tic Goyernn1ent?

Mr. CARTER: \Vha.t rcbout the unemployed in Victoria?

C\1r. KERB : If the hon. membe_r will peruse the .statistics he will find that rt does not require £1,000,000 to prondo for the un' mpfoyed in Victoria.

:\h. FEHRICKH: The loss on the Victorian railways and tram\Yays an1ountcd to £217,000.

Mr. ~:;:ERR: That is not our problem to-dav. That is thr: problem of Victoria .. It j:"; {~lUin1Pd that raihva.v adrninistration lS a world-wide problem, bui it has bt•cn solved by othf:r States of Au;;t.ralia.

I\.Ir. FI:nnTCKS : Th0v ha vc not douf" so in Victoria. They are, thousands of pounds behind,

~.1r. KERH, The hon. gentleman knows tlw•: arc not thonsands of pounds behind. Un;. financial problem is not one that has a.utomatical1y co1nc upon us, and one -.,,,hich no one could prevent. It has been brought ;.bcut solely b:: the Government'~ own action'. It would appear that ·the Gove_rn­ment Lnc erected a glass house of soClal­is1-ir cntL'rprise_ and the Tn:asurer js llO\'\' bombarding it with stones. If the Govern­"wnt arc prepared to give private, entcrprrse ev"r/ opportunity. then we shall have a far better State.

:VIr. CoLLINS: Privat-e enterprise failed in the Cloncurry distr;ct and caused a brg loss on onr raihvays.

:\Ir. KERH: Let me re'rnind the hon. member that wages have continually increased from 1902, when they were about 5s. 6d. or 6s. a dav, until this Government reduc~d them. There has been only one break Ill

the inrn'ase in wages since that date, and t.hat was \vhen this Government adoptu:\ a policy of retrenchment. 1'\otwithstand:nR-" the fact that wage"' and cost of matGrra.' ::tC'r.dil~,T j:ncr·a~,~d from 1902 to 1~14. the railways paid iheir way in the latter year.

J\Ir. '\YrxSTA"LEY: For how long?

:\fr. PAV:\E: They never paid.

Mr. KERR: The ritihva"s in 1914 paid all j.h<' intNest and dcpr~ciation charges charp;ed against thr-m.

Mr. li'ERRICK~: And paid 5s. a day i11 wages.

l\Ir. KERR : The wages in 1906 were 5s. 6d. :1. dav. and thC' incrorrses giyon to the woyk· men' frorn 1902 to 1914 wer0 in proportiOn io the increases that have been awa1·dcd since 1914. \Vhat has happened since 1914

trr. Km-r.l

133\l Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

for this drv rot to have set in on our rail­ways? \Ye know what has happened. Mr. Fihcll:f, when Secrot.ary for Railwavs, said that the railways did not exist to pay their way, that the,· were for the people. That vYas a rnC're p1atitude, a mere excuse for the de plY cia tion of those fine assets, and making them a charge on the taxpayer. This problem c-1n be tackled to-day if the Gm·ernment arc game to face it: Is it prcf~rable for the taxpayers to foot the bill in rPg-ard to the losses on the Railway Department or for the utility to be made to pa~r its \V<lY? ~

lY1r. PEASE: Yet you are asking the Trea­surer for n1ore non~ paying raihvays!

;>.1r. KERR : I am not asking the Trea­surPr (.o construct more non-paying railways. If tlw Gov0rnmcnt compel the taxpayers to bear lhe ]o,.c•s made by the railways, then th0y must eventually cripple industrv. That is an economic law. It is impossible for this _GovC'rnnwnt to be on a different foot-ing Ill that regard to the ordinary individual. Th01·~ is no special ray of light from heaven which will act as an economic guide in an:v . directi_on. It is far better that any public utl!Ity should be made t-o pay its way rather than bP a continual drag not onlv on the taxpay0rs but on industry as well.

The Tr0asurer ar!l'uccl that these problems were world-wide. This is not a world-wide problem, but a lac a 1 on<:' Last vcar the GovcrnrnPnt lo•·t· £299,000 in such enter­prises as Stat0 sawmills, the State produce ag-enco·. State cannery. State hotel, State fish supplv. State railway refreshment-rooms, State coal mines, State arsenic mines State smcltPrs. Irvinebank State treatment 'works. and the projcnted Bowen iron and steel worl". The Government paid something like £13.000 for the lease of an island in connection with thc>se iron and steel works. The ore on t-his island has never !wen used nor is it likely to bE• used. It is impo,sibl; for that to go on. ·

\Yhat is the effect of the policv of this Government? At on0 time. when this State was under a previous .\dministration build­ings rouTd be erected ant of the rPv~nue of tlw State, but at nresent loan monev is doing· thP work. That means a conti'nnal drag on the taxpaYer in the wa.v of interest. IJ'ndPr previous Administrations 'state schools were built out of revenue to a t:rreat exteEt. f sha]] f!UOte t.he proportion of Joan mane\' used fm· bvildi ng purpoecs under this an;! previous Administrations-

1912-13 (Liberal Govern_mcnt) 1913-14 1914-15 1922-23 (Lab~ur Gm·er;;ment) 1923-24 1924-25 1925-26

Per cent. 24 29 28 64 71 64 67

~Vhilc the proportion under preYious Admin­~etrahon<S was clown to 24 pm: cent., it has Jnmped to 67 per cent. at the present time, and has been as h1gh as 71 per cent. Tlurt means only one thing-a big financial crash.

il'1r. PEASE: The big-g-est finctncial crash oc7urred when your side werP in power. W na t a bout the bank <mash in 1893?

. Mr. KERR · There is going to bP one solu· ban of these difficulties so far as I can see,

[.YJ ... Kerr.

and I a.m sorry to have to anticipate ii, because Queensland will contain many millions of people as time goes on. I can see that nnification will be brought about in Australia, and that the Commomve,dth GoYcrnmcnt will haYe to take charge of :he fin'ance, of the ym·ious States and hand out money to them as reqnired. That is looming on the horizon at present. If our State finances were properly handled, we cou\J go right ahead.

Mr. CoLLIX8: If the Commonwealth finances were properly handled. we could go· right ahead and establiE>h secondary ind..!s­trics.

Mr. KERR: The Commonwealth of Aus­tralia. is probably one of thr> soundest nations, financiallv, to be found in the whole world. r ask t b0 Treasurer where he stand:;? \re we to belic·vc that the speech hP mMl" this ~norning is. a gcnuin0 expression of rJpinion? I do not wish to doubt thP SPnti m2nts of the hon. p:entleman, but I l1nd difficulty in recor oiling the statement lw made this morn­ing with "tatf'n:wnts mado by hin1 a fe1.1

months ago. Tf an hon. gentleman comes into this Cha.mber c~nd makes two strl.tcments '"·hieh arC' diametrically opposed the one to the oth0r. whie.h is ono to believe? I have no hesitation in saving that speeches of such a contradictorv nature carrv no weight, Uocausr: OJH' cn~not reconcile them. That is the ercneral policy of the partv opposite. If the rrrPa•,urer W'E:'l'l· l'tallv ::<inccr·e, no one \\ ould ' cl come that stat;, of things more than the Opposition. The hon. gentleman \vas cithc1· not sincere or he is a rnan who descends to a pretty low standard to deceive tlw elerl'ore of Queensland.

Mr. HARTLE\ He is getting prett:.- low if he gets lower than you.

Mr. KERR: \Ye have to h2p the Trea­surer to his r<'rnarks as murh as po~sible, but 1 c annat sec how we can look upon him as being rclia.ble. \Ye w.mt the hon. gentle­man to do what ho claims he will do on lwhrrlf of the people', but hon. mE>mbcrs oppo· site will not let him Cftrry out his desire.

Spcakin:; on 9t.h April, 1926, the hon. gentleman said-

" Tn face of the mo t obvious evidence of progress in indnsb·~- in wc.l:lth produc­tion, in trade, and ron1morc8: in spite of overwhelming m·idcncc of the people's prosperity, the soundness of the credit of the State, and tho securih of its financial and economic situatwn, the Tor.v politicians and the Tory press con­tinue their eternal jeremiads about the ruin of Queensland under Labonr."

ThP haiL gentleman in Parliament. on 15th October. 1926, expressed the opposite view to that. He then said-

" I find m:self placed in a Yen· difficult financial position, and I must obtain revenue son1C\"\'herc.''

The two statements are absolutely oppo;ed. In April ]aot hC' said some of the schemes \Vonld be coHtlv, but hP had lH) hr>~itation in :;aying that th~ nlonc'y wonld b0 found, and thut there woul-d be nn financial difficulty; and DO\Y he come., to thi!'. J{ou~r" and rnakes the statement hl made this morning. Can \\8 take it that h0 is sincere and means what he says? The time has arriYed ,-hen the Tre.tsurer's bluff should b·' called. Three timos in tLis Chamber he has n1ado extra­or-dinary speeches, and then he acts on

Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1337

another policy entirely. The time has arrived when c :1ndour is necessarv. If there is unrest -and the Treamrer stated there is unrest­it can be tackled by stabilising the Gov{)rn­tnent and letting the people know where the Government stand. You will not do awa0 with this unrest by diving into every hole and into over:, pocket for money. That only makcc., the people unstable. The:>' do not care whether thev make an extra £1 or two or not, because they know that, if they do, the Stato will take it from them. It is better for the people to retain their own money than for the State to pool it and spend it for them. There is only one result when the State take" the surpli.1s mone;c and spends it. It means chaos.

The appropriation asked for to-day calls for some condemnation on thc part of mem­bers. The financial world has condemned the Government. ThPv have bc·cn held up to obloquy for the tremendous loss of the people's money that has occurred in connec­tion with State enterprises. Even our rail­\VU \ s ar·G not our own and there is not one peilny in the wa:;: of a 'sinking fund put aside to me0t our loans. Only the other day a ,-01'-- important pamphlet was issued by brok0rs in London in this r0gard, and that pamphlet should b0 studi,,d very closely by hon. members opposite. It \:ill disclose to those hon. mmnbcrs that this 'verlasting bor­rowing and recklc'S expenditure cannot pos­s1blv continue. The unrest in the C'ommunitv to-day is most defJlOl'able. A strong lea·d could br given by th0 Gov(•rnment of the State but Hwre is no l0ad coming from the present GovPrnmcnt.

:\1r. H. M. RUSSF;LL (Tomnbul): Judging from what the Treasurpr said thie morning. we can imagine that thP chickens are coming home to roost. The Labour party has occu­piod the Treasur:. benches for eleven years. and during that time its record of financial rni.~rnanag('lllPnt i:- unequalled in the history of parliamentary government in Aust.ralia. D,·spite the warnings given by the Opnosi­tion, and despite the criticisms that have been offered, the Govermnent, of \Yhich the Trea­surer has bePn a 1nen1 ber for manv 'Teurs, have pursued a h0adlong course to ·dc~truc­tion. ::'>iow the Treasurer can see that t.hc finances are in such a deplorable condition that radical measures must be a.dopted to put an end to tlw f1nancial drift that has bHm going on continuousl;.~.

The Treaeurer \Yas fairly candid this morn­itw. an<l he has our sympathy in his present condition. He has asked the Opposition tu refrain from carping criticism. I take it. thec·cfore. that he wants the Opposition

to hdp him out of the moss in r3 p.m.] which he finds himself to-day. I

haYo always held the view that the financial admini~tration of the State 'honld be beyond part:.· ]'olitics altogether, buf. our friends opposite pay no heed to our cnt1osm and treat us with contempt. What •;oic• have> we in the administration of th" State to-day? :\o110 whatever! Time·• out of number we have at.tcmpted without avail to IFlVC amendments put into Bills introduced h:v the Gm-crnmont. and the Treasurer in his d0speration now calls upon us to come iT his as;cistance. 1"\e are not here to promul­t(a tn a. fm an cud pohc~,7 for the Government; we are not here to give the best of our brains to the Government to make use of and the,n ~e thrown aside; but, if the Govern­ment are m earnest and want the Opposition

to assist them, I fool certain that that assist­ance will be forthcoming, because it be­hoves eYerv man who has tho welfare of t.hc country at heart to join hands on this important question, if he is desirous of pulling Queensland out of the financial morass into which she has been plunged. I take it that the Government are now convinced of the futility of the grandiose schemes •·. hich they put into effect some years ago. The policy of State enterprises is recognised to-dav to bo a wrong one, and I take it that · tho Government arc making every endeavour to get out of those enterprises. 'l'ha t is the evidence before us to-day. \Yhether they 11 ill do so successfully or not is hard to say : but my advice to the Government is to quit as soon as they rossibly can and give private enterprise the opportunity of running these sorvic'"'· It has b0en demonstrated beyond argument that the Government have made a deplorable me" in their handling of the State enter­prise-s.

Mr. PEASE: \Vhat about State insmance?

Mr. H. M. RUSSELL: State insurance is not a State enterprise-it is a Government monopoly. There is no commendation due to the (~overnmcnt for the management of workers' compensation and the State Insur­ance Ofllce. vVe know verv well that these monopolies impose grinding rate' on those who pay. The pror1ts have been very great, and. as we havo said on previous occasions, JhP workers have been robbed of those profits. That has been clearlv demonstrated. There is no credit due to the Government for the manaQ'ement of the State Insurance Office nor of an:~· other monopoly-they are truce fun,•hons of the State. I anl dealing with State enterprises. and I sa.) that every enterprise the} have entered upon has been a ghastly failure. Despite the fact that last y0ar the Government had a higher revenue than any previous Government in the history of Queensland, the Government ended the Y' ar with a big deficit of over £500,000, and, judging from the present flotate of affairs, it is quite likely that the deficit for the current vear will be more than that. vVe are sorncwh:;t apprehensive about the enormous drift that is setting in in all the departments of the State to-day, and it is s:tfc to say that the deficit for the present year will certainlv touch the million mark.

\Vhat does the Treasurer propose to do Jo avoid that? He knows the situation, and, if it v;Pre not for the need of assuaging the opposition of some of his followers who do not sec quite eye to eye with him-if it were left to some !ton. members on the other side we would "till go on drifting and piling up deficits, because their policy has been to tax the other fellow to make up such loss~·,-if it. were not for this, the Treasurer might be inclined to do the right thing. He has been long enough in politics to realise that we have come to the end of our tether, and that desperate remedies must be applied. Not only is he faced wit.h the deficit which must occur this year, but he has also to endeavour to solve all these problems: There is a gradual decline in land settlement; there is a decline in agricultnre; the pastoral indmtry is suffer­ing big losses owing to drought and inability to market its beef a"d mutt.on at decent prices; the dairying industry, because of drought and the fact that markets abroad

111r. H. JJ1. R1tssell.]

1338 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

have fallen considerably, is in for ver:, heavy lcc .,os; and it has alreadY been shown that the mining industry is practically non­exist.rnt. With all those facts facing him, Hw Treasurer can see that he is in for a very le an timl. \V e can look forward to a trernendous landslide in our revenue, and the hon. gentleman is hard put to it to meet the positi0n.

Que0nsland has been held up as a very prospc1·ous State. It is apparent.lv pros­perous. On the face of things there is a fair amount of prosperity as compared with the other States; but we have to admit that we are practically living on borrowed money. ~ ot only arc the Governrnent spending loan money-they got through !£5,000,000 last year--but other expenditure of loan money is also going on. Local aL!i.horities and Qther [l"Qvernmontal instrumentalities arc spend­~ng all the mQney they can borrow. This ts. all creating an artificial prosperity, and dtrcctly that loan money is us0d up or there is a stringenc7 in the loan market w that we are not able to obtain as much in the future as we have obtained in the past, what will QCcur? Thoro will be a stoppage of loan works and numbers of men will be thrmvn on the labour market.. 'rhat will be a deplorable state of affairs; but we have to face the sit.uaticin-and the Treasurer know" as well as I do that we must face the situation sooner or lat.er. We must admit that we are Qn]y truetecs of the loan monev borrowed from the old country. and it cari:­not be said that we have expended that money t? t.he best advantage. Have we not wasted It Ill extravagance, and sunk a lot m unproductive enterprise,, and works? Have we been true to our trust? The loan monev which we arc spending to-day should be •pent for the benefit of those who follow us; but. we . arc merely casting upon the next gc>ncrahnn an enormous load Qf debt and interest. The public debt of Queens­tan~] to-day is over £101,000.000, and I "behove that thP time has come when we should cr,v a halt in tbe inflation of our lQan burden. The •accumulated ·deficits of (,he party Qppositc amount to £985.000 which. with the deficit which will Qccur this year: will mean that we shall bC' over £1 'lOO 000 to the bad. ' ·

iVith. all these fads staring us in the face, 'Omt'thllJg- has tn be done. Whilst I do not think that an Opposition should be asked to formulate a policy, vet I think we are prcparPd to a,sist t.hc Government.

This is a matter that should be removed from party politics. Tlwrc is no reason wh·· some new s,vstem should nr>t be inaug-urated \Yhcrcbv a greater chc.ck ca:n be exercjsc-d upon Governtnf>nt 0xt.ravaganf'e. All n1onc­Bi.lls should b0 invest'.gatcd by a com­mitt. c of the whole Hou,<c. If the Govern­ment desire the a·sistance Q{ the Opposition. then demand som0 representation in order that we may be heard effectively, and nQt be [aughed .at for our suggegtions or critici~m. We have as much brains on this side as aro to be fQund on tho Dther side of the Chamber. Secino; that the country has been brought to such a deplorable shte by tho present Gow-rnment. surely it is not beneath their dig;.ity tQ ask the Opposition to come to then· rescue. We are willing w hdp them. but onl0 provided we he \'O some C'ffective voice in the financial administration of the Stat-e.

[Jlr. H. M. Russell.

HoN. W. H. BARNES (TVynnum): I trust that nQ one is under the impression, as a result of this debate, that hon. members on this side are opposed to the mining industry. Many Qf us remember that in the past the mining industry saved Queensland during very critical times. The point we are making is that the mining industry has got out of hand because the Government have controlkd it when they should have allowed private enterprise to control it

At 3.12 p.m.,

Mr. NOTT (Stanley), one Qf the panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved Mr. F. A. Cooper in the choir.

Mr. PEASE: vVhat about Mount Mm·gan-­the best managed mine in Queensland·,

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I am prepared to admit that the GQvernmcent have given some financial assistance to Mount Morgan. but they are nQt the first Government who have assist(l-d ::'daunt }\Iorgan. I can remember that the company was assisted in a time of crisis \vhcn I was TrDasurer 1

Mr. HARTLEY: What did you do?

HoN. W. H. BAR::\'ES: vVe p:uve them a Yery substantial rebate in railwa, freights.

1Ir. HARTLKl: I think that is news to the community.

HoN. \V. H. BARXES: The hon. gentle­man evidently dQes not know everything. It was trotted out this mQrning, and again this afternoon. that the Government have done very much for Mount JY1organ. The point .i ''Tant to rnakc is. \vhat are they doing no\v ~· It has bel'n 'aid that they are asoisting Mount ~\1organ, but I belie,·e that, if the Secretary for Mines wer·e asked, we would find that the money we \Vore paying to :ilt1ount Morgan has been stopped. I say that deliberately.

The SECRE~'ARY FOR LABODR AND INDUSTRY: T!wy were given a rebate Qn freights.

HoN. W. II. BARNES: I sa" <chat the assistance of a grant of so muf'h per month has been stopped.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : JY1ount Mm·gan is pas,,ing through a period of rcconstruct.iQn.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: That is the excuse that is offered. The Government should be reconstructed.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : And the Opposition, too.

HoCi. W H. BAR::\'ES: Yes. probably the Opposition. too. It was exceedingly interest­inp: to hear the hon. member for FitzrQy upbraid the Treasur.er a while ag-o, and sai-d it wcs very fQo]ish of him to make i.hc state­ment that' he made thi<. morning.

Mr. HARTLEY: I did not. I >'id he wa' fooli~h in askjng ~,Tnu people for asCJistanec. That. is a totally different thing.

HoN. W. H. BARXES: The statement made bv the Treasurer was to the effect that he desired hon members on this side to give him the very best assistance in this time of crisis.

Mr. PEASE: And not indulge in carping criticism.

Hox. W. H. BARKES: The hon. memb(;r is not rapable of indulging in carping criti­cism or any other criticism. I believe the Treasurer '"'Ta-s in earnest, I ·want hon. mern­bers to cast their minds back oYer what has

Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 1339

<Jccurrcd in the past. vVou]d it not be an 'intr-resting study ·to turn up " Hansard " and read some of the spcech<•s delivere-d by the Treasurer 11'hcn this House was asked to ~.~on1nwncc f::,Onlc of those enterprises? \\7'"o were ·told vv.hat fhey were going to do for Qucons]ancl! To-day WP have the Treasurer nayint, that the UovC'rnment have decided to throw oYer the unpa~. able entC'rpriscs; but. unfortunately, he remarked that they ~vou1d engage in other enterprises if they con,iderPd tlwy would be payabL- The cry of the Government, like ·the cn· from :'\lace­doni a. is '" Con1c ov<>r and help us." If hor•. rn~:rnbc,rs opposite refer to '' I-Iansard," tlwy will find that the rod lig_ht wa5 exhibi­ted! that the green light was also lit; and ·that the greftt clanger towards which the Cio\'Prn:r1cnt wPrc heading was raised again a.nd again by the Opposition; bnt they were laughed at. ::\ow, to-day, if I may u•oe a term that is used elsewhere, they arc saying. .. Throw out the hfc !me! Come along and bring us off . t~c wreckage into a place of ;;afcty and ddiYcranC'e !"

:Yir. HARTLEY: Do you mean that the Stamp Aet .Amendment Bill is the life line?

Hox. 'K. B .. B.ARKES, There is n.1 doubt in n1:;· n1intl that the Trea:iurcr was desper­a1 r_)ly in carueet ~this rnorui:ng. \Yhatever \\C n1av think about t}J(_' Goyernment· we O\VC a duty" to this gn,at State. If the Treasurer rPl[Uircs help and advice, his dub is not to spc 1k from the front Government· bt~nch, but ·to come to the Lea.d<'r of the Opposition and say. '' I want you to help me at this par­tic~lar time of crisis." J\'otwithstanding the

-crymg of the hon. member for Fi,tzroy, I am perfectly sure that the Treasurer would find the JJeader of the Opposition prepared to give him advice and help. There Me times when the Treasurer com0s along as he has done to-day, and says, "There is danger." Can anything be plainer than that? T.ho whole business, boiled do··nl, mean5 several things which I want to emphasise. One of those things is that apparentlY the Govern­ment are up against it. Hovv aro they up agamst 1t? They a.ro up against it because ·the State has lost its reputation.

Mr. DASH; ::\o, it has not.

HoJ>. W. H. BARNES; As a result of the ~bsoluto mismanagement of succeeding Labour Governments and the consequent waste of the people's money, the credit of the State does not stand good. There are business men. whom I am addrecsing to-da.y. If thev require help from a financial insti­·tution, they place before that institution information which will inspire confidence. \Vhat do we find in connection with !he Go­vernment? \Vo find that the Treasurer has no story to tell that is worth while. Sup­posing the hon. gentleman proceeds to the ·old country and carrie, with him', as he ought to do, a copy of the speech he made this 1norning, and presents it to the financiers when asking for money, what kind of adver­·tisement is that to obtain monev? It is Pnough to condemn the hon. gent!e~an right from the very start.

I desire to challenge the Treasurer upon another statement he made. He said that the tendency of the Opposition was always to blame the man who is doing the work. 'That is not so. vVe blame the men who have he('n the leaders in connection with this policy. If some of thos" belonging to the party oppo­sitP who were previously in power had had a little backbone, the position would not be

what it Js to-day. Some hon. member said we advocate lower wages. \Ve do not stand for that; but we do advocate that there should be efficiency, and that every man should give of his best, just the ,.amo as mem­lwrs of Parliament should gH-o of thCir best-.

The SECRETARY FOR ::HiKES ; YOU stand for the reduction of wages.

Hox. W. H. BAR"'ES; ::\ever at any time have vve stood for that. ·we, as indiv-iduals, ha vc to realise, and the community !1as to realise, that everyone ha-, to give of his best if Queensland is to be brought round.

:Ylr. HARTLEY; Don't you worry about G;:ueensland ! Queensland is all right.

Hox. W. H. BAR?\ES: A man would n?t lw half a. citizen or worthy of citizenship if-lw did not worry about his State. Qan­not hon. members read between the hnes 1,chen the Treasurer had to send round a cireular practically sa:ving, " Go slow ! You can get nothing." The Government have been going along at a shocking pace.

Take the case of the railways, which have a lreadv been referred to. Th" return on all lines f~w the capital invested is £1 13s. 1?~d. pPr cc11t. It rna~v be said. '' Look at. the; hnes Pot opened !" If that is takPn into considera­tion. the return is £1 16s. 1!d. per cent. I heard an interjection a little while ago to the effect that our railways have never paid. That is not tn~e: because they hav~ paid. The present positwn IS the result of rnismanagerrl~-'!lt .. Let us g0t nght d?wn to the cause, whiCh 1s the. fact that tlie Govern­ment have not sufficient backbone to control the railways and see that from the top to the botton'I faithful service is given. The Treasurer now comes along and says that must be done. It ought to be done. The Treasurer will find that in anything he does which is for the good of Queensland the Opposition will be behind him.

Mr. HARTLEY; Yes, and will push him over the precipice.

HoN. W. H. BARNES, The hon. member is one of those who are urging the Treasure_r nearer and nearer to the edge of the preCI­pice, and who will finall:y push him over, in their endeavour to put mto effect extreme notions which can never be realised.

The position to-day must be realised and faced. Our railways have a deficit of nearly £15,000,000, accumulated in a few years. We eannot continue at that rate. vVe have beard from the Treasurer that some of the sugar-mills and other concerns are to go, and we hope the hon. gcntle':lan has the courage to tackle what he beheves needs to be set straight. It is not easy to tackle things like that, but it will be better for Queensland when they are tackled and the Government realise that we cannot go on living in this fools' paradise. There is . not a man in this Chamber who does not beheve in the State of Queensland. W-e believe in the State. but v. e believe it should be put on a sound financial footing. The present condition of things has been brought about by thoce who have been in office or the men thev have succeeded during the past eleven vears. Thev started off with what they considered ~vere ideals, and those ideals have all been exploded. Even the SecrPtary for Labour and Industry is as quiet as .can be, because he realises that all the thmgs which he mapped out have been exploded. .\Ye are not going to help Queensland to a

Hon. W. II. Barnes.]

1340 Supply. [ASSEMBL Y.j Supply.

better condi lion of things by continually tinkering with legislation. The very Stamp Act Amendment Bill that we have been considcying is going to help still further to retard the position of Queensland. One of th<' best things that could happ<'n to Queens­laud-there may not be another person in the rommittee who will agree with me in this -wonld be to elm'" up the possibility of any Ire< h legislation in the direction we have been zt>tting it, and thereby give people a chance to get on and do oomething. The legislation of to-day deters and frightens people from doing something they might do. It is essential that the Government should realise more and more that their duty is to gm ern and not to trade. and to give nthet· people the opportunity to trade. To sorne extent th0 Treasurer is waking up to that po-<ition. but we noticed ha\\ he used the oilcan to soothe hon. members like the hon. member for Fitzroy by ·-aying that there will be something fresh coming along to keep thetr policy gning. The duty of thc, Government is to gm·ern. and not to trade. It is the trading that has landed us in the position 1q:- arc in to-day.

At 3.27 p.m .. :\I L F. A. C'OOFEH (Jfr, "' 1 r) resumed the

chair. Hox. W. H. BAR:--JES: Look at the

rosition we would be in if the Government, instead of having "\\ .-.sh_"d their n1onev as they have \' asted it. had put it into enter­pri·<e: that were profitable'

~\lr. PK\SE : \\'hat caused the bank smash in ~393. Lcfore Labour got into power?

Hox. \Y. H. BAR:'\ES: :\Ir. Cooper is a \'Cry wise , nd proper Chairman. and I am sure he will not allow nw to discuss that que,tion. (Laughter.)

:\I r. :'\OTT (Stanlcy) : One of the matters that ought to make m pause and think what. wo arc doing in Queensland financially at the prrwnt time is the fact that it takes ;tbout £5,000.000 of our revenue to pay rntcrc, t on loanti.

Mr. FEHRICKS: About £2.000.000 of that is tlw aftermath of the war.

::\ir. ='IOTT: We should do a1! we can to d<'vrlop tl"c State bv decentralisation· vet we find< that during the last three 'years the varwns countr:v elect-orates have lost a populo tinn of 16.000 who have come to the c-it '<· < \Ylwn I quote thoee figures I am r0fcrnng to tl1e actual yoterP, s6 that \Ve r-an take: it ilni: t.he drift from the country ro the f'rt:T ha.s bePn Ycrv n1nrh in exces" of 16.000. If hon. members will look up the ,·o\cs ca't at the last election thev will find that there was an increase' in t-he city Plcctorato:· of somewhere a bout 16,000 and a dccr0a~0 in the countr:;- electorates of a like IHPrJbPr. Tho:;;,0 two items taken in c-onjunction. arc a warning that. we should r.<JUf'C' and r?n~irlcr Ycry carefully the posi­' lOll of t<hc State<

Earl5· this mor:ling the Tr01·--nrer delivered a ~prPch in rPr{arcl to th0 finnncial position ni Qnecn--.lnnd -generally< Th" t sppcch was a practical_ odmi .si0n thet the nolicy and ndmJntstrahon of the Labonr Government haYc bc<'n pron•d t<o be ab--olntelv at fault.

Several hon. n1en1be1:S on this [3.30 p.m<J sidP ha Ye said that the Treasurer

dt 00 1'\'f'S C'Ol1lfi('Ddation for his cnurnf!P in making that statE'rncnt · but to n1~- nTind it \Ya~ not a. matter of' courage.

fHon. W. H. Barnes.

at all, but of being in a dcspNat<e condition. From what he knows of the finances of Queensland, he realised the intolerable J:lOSi« tion we arc in tD-day. In making a plea<< for the Yarious Stat·l~ enterprises that lie· has been adYotating for a nun1bcr of years, he pDinted out that. th<' mcial and other seniccs \Vhich thev render<·cl were matters that could not be overlooked, and that they were not sufficiently appreciated by the< Jmhlic< Ho also mentioned the Railway Dcpart-nwnt in illuctration of this particular phase. \Yhilc speaking on the railways he stated that the railwavs had incurred a verv he aY 1 loss during ihc year in carrying dock fron1 drought-stricken areas to agist­ment areas. and also in conveying fodder for 1lronght-strickcn sheep and cattle. If we had eliminat-ed the payments made to the dcpartnwnt oH account of fodder taken to starving stock and for starving stock which ''" rc>mon'd to other parts of the country \vhcrc• there \ras food available for them, I think i11e shrinkage in the railway returns \VOU Id ha Yl' been tremendous.

:\1r. HARTL£Y: If we had received full mtcs fur the carriage Df fodder and stock, it would haYc increased the returns.

rdr. KOTT: The people concerned were granted a rebate of freight; but the Troa­~urer adn1itted, in reply to an intcrject.ion of mille, that the amount actuallY paid for 1 he carriage of fodder and starving stock was greater to-day than the charges used to be on t-he railways ten or twelve years :<g-o. The hon. gl'ntleman endeavoured to gC'l the people in Queensland to believe that< the raihvays had done a very great service to the pastoralists in carrying otock and fodder. whereas we know that t-hose concerned paid very fair rates for the caniage of that; fodder and stock.

The Treasurer adn1itterl that there was­a general ,]ackrwss ill the discipline of the raihvav sorYicc. \Ve know that to be t-he nsc. ~nd the reason is to be found in the Ltct that tho'e in charge of the Yarious Government departments know perfectlv well that t-hey cannot get the backing o"f the Cabinet or their :\Iinister. IV e had that amply demonstrated v:hen there was trouble bch,·een the f'ommi'"ioner for Railwavs and' a certain employee. 'vVe haYe seen it demon­stmtcd in various St-ate enterprises<

The TREAScRER: \Yhat about Victoria?

Mr. KOTT: I am not worr:l'ing about Victoria. Qu0en land is worrying me at< the pres0nt time< 1f the officers in the control of various departments knc\v t.hat their authority would be maintained by the Cabinet-< without a doubt \Ye would have n gr·t at deal more efticicnc:: throughout the State than ,,-e have.

Th0 Treasurer mentioned that the Labour part~' wa''' in ofiic ~ in England on1;;- a short time. There were• some intNjcctiom to the r ffcct that< thev had dmw particularly good work dnring that period, and he then said that the onE' i·nportant rro,on why they c!iJ not hold office vNy long was that a forg-pc} l('ttcr \Onis clrrnlat, d. wit.h the re~ult that a number of th"m lost their seats.

The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC \Y ORKS : He clid not say that.

Mr. XOTT c I maintain that the Labour party ill Qucemoland are holding t-heir seats,

Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 1341

'bv chicanerv and a manipulation of the .electorates. ·

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC \Y ORKS : Chi­·t",'lnery or chicory?

Mr. NOTT: I have no doubt that tho Sccretarv for Public 'vV orks is an adept, and knows how far ho can go so far as chicanery is concerned.

The TREAS1:RER: You do not mean " chi­.cancry ''-you mean "chic-I{enya.."

).lr. 2'\0TT: So far as Kenya Colony is •concerrwd and so far as Victoria Nyanza is concerned, I would like to sav that anv man in Queensland who has the fuck t.o hav;, a share in those enterprises will be able to bring back to Queensland at least £2 10s. for every £1 he sends ont of it and that has not boon brought ahout bv running them in the wa~· in which the Government. run their enterprises. (Government interjections.)

Th1. TEMPORARY CI-IAIRMA)J: Order! I would point out to tho hon. member that Ken,\!L Colony is not covered by this appro­prratwn.

Mr. ="!OTT: If we had run our enterprises in Quecnsland-par_t·icnlarly mining-in an up-to-da to manner mst<>ad of us in~ obsolete proces:-.es. the position might not have been so serious. It was a particularlv dishonest action on the part of the Government to continue to run the Chillagoe Rnwlters at a tremendous loss to the taxpayers when they knew-and we have t.his on the word of the Secretary for Mines-that theY were being run by an obsolete process. "

The TREASURER: Your mill at Kenva is not comparable with our mills here. ·-

Mr. KOTT: Remarks were made this morning in rPgard to certn in orP which the ·owners had crushed by private batteries in preference to taking it to the State batterv, althoug-h the latter wn~o more conv0nienth. situated to their mines. \Yhen the Lcadc'r of thP Opposition made the statement the hon. member for Chillagoe said that onlv one person had clone this, and tl1E'n he said there were two men who had done it, and pcrha.ps thrr.e.

Mr. O'KEEFE: He heard it from only one pal"ly.

:V[r. KOTT: Other hon. members of this party heard like rnmonrs while in "-'orth Queomland. On manv occasions we heard the ')Ucstion ra is0d as to whetlwr people subn11ttmg ore for tr<>atmcnt at the State smelters w0re obtaining a fair ·deaL Tlwv bcltovecl thcv were not obtaining thP full value of thell' ore. I would like the Score­tar~· for Mines to supply us >lith the figures showmg- th,. percentagp of orP 1\'0n and trPatf'd at the St.ate battery. These people do not send their ore to an inconvenient place for nothing. On manv occasions the qnestion v. as asked as to 'whether these goul!ers · were obtaining a fair deal in con­Df'ction ·with their ore. Man:v~ years ago, wlwn lead wac onlv £11 or £12 a ton the nconlc living in that area could min~ th~ leJ.d. cart 1t OI_I \1orscs or mulec~ to br smcltPd, and make a hnng, but to-da.v, when lead is more than £30 per ton, there are verv few people m that area. who can make a living.

Mr. \YrxsT.\NLEY: You are wrong.

The SECRETARY FOR MIKES: You arc think­ing of tin.

:Vrr. 2'\0TT : During the last ten years efficiency in the mining industry has been eontinually impairr>d because the Govern­ment haYP Jacked the courao·e to deal ade­f1Uately ;,ith the 5ituation. d:\'ot only have we los::-;r~s in connection with State m1n1ng ventureR. but also as a consequence of rail­ways being nncon1pletcd.

The SECRETARY FOR '\1IXES : Do VOU think it. will be the end of the mining industry if Chillagoe clo80S do\vn?

:\Ir. l'\OTT: I do not think anv such thing. \VhY should it be·: The Minister knows as wpJi as I do that there is no country in the world that abounds so richly in tin, copper, gold, anti~ony, bismuth, \Volfrarn, and other metals as Queensland: but. judging from the returns and what has happened in North Que•'nslancl since the Government took over the smelters. there is no doubt that the repu­tation of the State in the Southern parts of \ustralia is that Quec'nsland is a dangerous plr1ce in which to invoet c..tpital.

:VIr. H YXES : Stinking fish.

;)Jr. C'. J. RYAx: Go to Africa.

Yrr. :\'OTT:. The Sccretarv for Mines quoted thL' case of Bloomer's foundry. Let YrH' l'Pff'L to that rnath)r to .shovv the la-ck of credit of ~' iwenslancl. \\'hen going to :Mel­bourne I v as askt ~,j if I v;ould 0ndc a vour to obtain some c1pital for that busiile(;",.,, and. after discuseing the matter "-ith some of the Melbouruc brokers. tlwv said to me. '' Jl.1r. ;\Jott, there is £300.000 'or £400.000 for that enterprise if you >vill bring it to Victoria."

J\fr. FERRICKS: :1\o wonder. the way you and Your party art" always dcfarning Queens­land.

:\fr. :\'OTT: That is not so. because actions snc1k loud0r than >vords. and the actions of this Government have rc'·<ultcd in the credit of Queensland being defamed. (Government interjections.)

The TRE.\Sl:RER : There is no room for the im·estrnent of £400.000 in chain-making in Bloomer'> foundry.

'\Ir. 2'\0TT: ·what I am telling this Cam­mitt<'<' is a.bsolutelv correct. Later on infor­nHttion \va,'' recci~-cd fron1 X0wcastle that the schcnw would be financed by capital suhsc:ribed iu that cih·, prm·ided the business was removed from Brisbane to Newcastle. but th,re would be no moncv forthcoming if the indm.try remained in Queensland. That is the result of the actions of this Covcrrnnent in the past ten or eleven years. Their actions spPak louder than any indi­Yidual is Ca]lD ble of speaking.

Mr. HYXE~: Both YOU and vour brother are constantly defaming this State.

Th TE).IPOR.\.RY CHAIR:VIA:\': Order~ Order!

Mr. :\'OTT: c\s long- as the present Administration continue their policy, so long shall WP hrtH' trouble in this StatP. There are manv localities in this State where enter­prise cot1ld be profitabb- carried on if a policy of raih~y development had been carried out. in a comn1on-"'ense manner. The Government ha,·e preferred to embark un so m~? 011tPrprise;;; whi('h tht'V ha yp no\Y rome to the conclusion that it i~ best in the intcn!Sts of the State to discontinue. Among tho~e Pntcrpri:-,0s arf' the :\Tount I•,a Rail-wav. 'md the railway schemes in connection with

Mr. Nott.]

1342 <.i'tamp Acts [ASSE:NIBLY.] Amendment Bill:

the Burnett and Dawson Valley land settle­ment schemes. A great deal more could be done to settle the people on the land in Queensland if the pre,ent system of railway construction and schemes in connection with land settlement wore carried on on common­sense business lines.

Question put and passed. The House resumed.

The TEJ\IPORARY CHAIRMAN i·eported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

The resumption of the Committee was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

The re,olution was received, and agreed to.

W~\YS A::\'D MEANS. RESUMPTION OF C0)!1IITTEE.

VOTE ON ACCOUXT-£4,150,000. (lvir. P. A. Cooper, Bremcr, one of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, in the chair.)

The TREASURER (Hon. W. A. :M:cCor­mack, Cairn.1): I beg to move-

" (a) That, towards making fiood th" Supply granted to His Majestv on account, for the service of the year' 1926-1927. '- further sum not 'exceeding £2.0_00.000 be ; ranted out of the Con­solidated Revenue Fund of Queensland exclusJvo of the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account:

"(b) That, towards ma-king good the Supply granted to His Majestv on account, for the service of the vear' 1926-1927, a further sum not 'exceeding £1.250.000 be granted from th-e Trnst and Special Funds;

'- (c) That, towards making good the Supply granted to His ::'11ajestv on account, for the service of the veat: 1926-1927, a further sum not 'exceeding £900.000 be granted from th0 monc,·s standing to the credit of the Loan Fund APcotmt."

Question put and passed. The House resumod. The Tn!PORARY CHATR3IA~ reported the.t the

Committer< had come to a resolution. The n•sumption of the Committee was

made an Order of the Da-v for Tuesdav next. The resolution was rccciycc\, and ag;·,ced to.

APPROPRIATIO:--.; BILL, l'\o. 2.

ALL STAGES.

A Bill, founded on the foregoing resolu­tion, was introduced, and passed through all its stages without discussion or amendment.

[4 p.m.]

STAMP ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

REs<:MPTION OF CoMMITTEE. (.1£r. F' . . t. Cooper, Rrcmer, one of the panel

of T, mporm y Chairmen, in the chair.)

Question stated-" That clause 33---,J mcndm ent of

Schedule I.-Stamp duties on instru­mr·nts-as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns): On the adjournment on Wednesdav, o•o·ing to the objection put forward bv tl;e Drro,ition to an ar:1endmcnt moved by rne

[.1Ir. Nott.

I withdrew it. On looking over the speechE· of membero of the Opposition I find that the opposition was not to the amendment but to the Bill generally, I, therefore, desire to• ask permission to insert the amendment. (Hear, hear!) The whole of the speeches of the Opposition dealt not with the amendment but with the general principles of the Bill.

A GOYERN211E::>1T ME)IBER : It is only a stone-, wall.

Mr. DEACON: \Ve accept your apology. (Laug·hter.)

The TREASURER (Hon. vV. McCormack, ('nirns): I beg to move the following a.mend-­ment :-

" After line 30, page 14, insert the· following wordil-

' The duties under paragraphs (2), (3), (4), and (5) may be denoted by an adhesive stan1p.' "

_Atnendment agreed to.

Mr. C0STELLO (Carnar,,•on): I beg to· mm·e the following amendment :-

" After line 32, page 14, insert the· words-

' Exemp,tion. ' An authorit,· giYen

a uctionecr or commission the ,,ale of am- live stock produce.' " ~

to an agent for and farn·

If this a.nwndment is accepted. it will give considNa ble relief to stock and station agents and other people in the country who trade. in sheep. cattle. and horses to the value of owr £100. A big business is carried on in the eountry by the sale and exchange of stock bet.wc;·n one grazier and another. It is the usual custom for the owner to place a line of sheep. ea ttle, or horses with an agent, and for that agent to pass on a list of those sheep, cattle, or horses to eo-agents in other rlistric-t.s. I understand that under the Bill the lists forwarded to the co-a[.ients will ha.vo to be stamped a.s well I'-' the original autho­rity. Agents list these stock on the off-chance of gdting buyers, and let the financial public know that certain stock can be purchased if n'quirc;d_ The fact of having to stamp lists which a.rc forwarded to eo-agents will cause fire at inc01wenience to those who are trading in stock in a small wav. \Vc have new settle­ments opening up in. the countr:.. I speak t1S OllP representing shee-p farmers with areas· of 2.000 acrc·s, and it will be very harassing to them to haYe to stamp every such instru­ment. \Vo do not know wha-t the stock are· lrOing to bring, and, if we arc asked to pay stamp dutv on the amount listed, it will be a hardship on the small stockowner. I should say that in ninety cases out of one hundred the stock are sold at a price below what they are listed at. It will only impose a. burden on the stockowners, particularly the small etockowners who exchange stock anwngst themselves. I trust that the Trea­surer will recognise that he is going to' hamp~r these men considerabl"- and that the revenue he will get from this duty is so small that it is not worth while. It is going to· make criminals out of thorn. because thw cannot carrv out all the inetructions which the Government a-rc laying down.

;\fr_ C.\RTER: You sound as if there were a lot of bushrangers out your way.

?vl:r. COSTELLO: The hon. member knows all about bushrangers-we do not need to go further than the other side for tha.t. The·

Stamp Acts [2~ OcTOBER.] Amendment. Bill. 1343

revenue from this duty will probably amount to only a few pounds a year, and, if the Government want money, why not charge the duty on the sale-make the stockowners pay extra duty there-instead of on the instructions to find a buyer? Very often they cannot find a buyer, and the small sheepmen are prepared to pay the extra amount which is wanted by the Government as revenue if a sale takes place, provided th.e Government leave things as they stand With regard to authoritv to sell. These regulations will only make criminals out of the people in the country.

Mr. WARREN (,lfurrumba) : I do not agree With the previous speaker that the revenue which will be derived from this duty will be a small revenue.

The TREASURER : It is not going to rum them.

Mr. WARREN: No but we do not think it is going to facilitat~ business. If a man writes letters to ten agents authorising them to sell, why charge duty on every one of those letters? Why not put the extra dutv on the sale, if it takes place? The Treasure~· would be well advised to take this amend· ::nent into consideration. I am looking at 1t purely from the point of view of the stocko·mlCr. As a rule, the fact that a man has pmduce to sell is very rarely notified to an agent; but in the case of stock a man m .a sma.ll way, perhaps with starving stock, wdl notify several agents. If he were only gomg to send the stock to one agent m Toowoomba, for instance, I do not think there would be any considerable objection. As a rule, st~ck are listed with as many agents as poss1~le so .as to secure a buyer. The. T~casurcr IS anxwus to obtain money, but IS It worth the amount invoh·ed if it will mean a bad business proposition?

, cr:ho TREASuRER (Hon. W. McCormack, Cazrn~) :. There IS ample scope for difference of opmwn on the Bill. Amendments have been . moved, and, no doubt from the point of VIew of the mover, a very good case c':n. be mcde out; but in this case, without pnng any thought to" the mat.ter, the hon. gentleman puts up a case first as to the h,ard·hip that will be inflicted on some sma!J saeep ~armor, and. when he finds himself on a quwksand, he alters his tactics alt.ogether. The t.a.x of sixp.ence on a value of £1,000 is not gomg to rum an:-body.

Mr. CAR'rER : He said it would make criminals of them.

The. TRE.~S~RER: No man is going to con1m1t a cnm1nal act unless ruination com­pels him to do so. 'l'he people on whose behalf he speaks do not send their stock to market. in such values as would attract 'lny t.axahon. He is speaking on behalf o.f the small man. How many send in a lme worth over £100?

i\Ir. \VARREN: Hundreds of them.

Mr. COSTELLO: You follow the ""'les at the Enoggera yards.

The TREASURER: I have followed the "ale· at Enoggera, and I know that people send then stock to an agent and not to half a dozen agents.

Mr. KING: V crv oft.en the stock do not leave the holding.·

The TREA!'\U~ER: Imagine sending a letter of adviCe m connection with a sale

of 100 sheep to Dalgety's, Winchcombe Carson, Morehcads, and 'l'he Australian Estates! It is not done. They have their agent, and th£" forward their sheep for sale through their usual agent.

Mr. MOORE: You are talking only of tho fat stock that come to Brisbane.

The TREASURER : I am talking of the sale of stock.

Mr. MOORE: What about the stock sold all over Queensland?

Mr. KING: On the holdings.

The TREASURER : Is there any hard­ship'! None whatever. An exemption was made to the value of £100 in case there should be any hardship. Hon. members. opposite engaged in commercial business know that a 2d. stamp duty is paid every day on receipts. Those transactions do n0t involve 2,000 sheep or 2,000 acres of lanc;ll. The hon. member for Toombul knows that ever.) day 2d. is paid in stamp dut;y on hundreds of transactions of £3 and £4.

:Mr. COSTELLO: That is where the business is effected. In this case the tax mtlst be paid before any business is done.

The TREASURER: Here an exemption is given up to £100, and you are not satia· lied.

JYlr. COSTELLO (Carnarvon): I am sorry the Treasurer has not a better knowledge of the sheep industry of Queensland. This t.ax will not be so much a hardship as an inconvenience. You are asked to pay a tax when a transaction will probably not result. A stockowner instructs his agent to sell a certain line, and he is taxed for the privih·ge of . .YI'riting the lett-er of instruc-. tion. It is not just to ask him to pay that tax. If the 'rreasurer is in need of revenue, we am prepared to meet him and pay st.amp duty after the deal has been made. Our case is different from that of the hon. member for Toornbul. He pays on thH transaction, but we are to pay on the advice. When a stockowno1~ advi~c~, '' I have so n1any sheep; can you find n1o a buyor for same? ' or, 'c I ha ye oo many steer' for sale; can you place them for me?" duty stamps will have to be affixed to those adviccs. If a description of that stock is subeequently despatched to half·a·dozcn stock agents within CL 50·mile radius asking t.hem to find buyers, each and every one of those circulars has to be stamped again. If lists are prepared and then despatched to co·agents in other parts of the State, they also have to be stamped.

The TREASURER: Don't you think that a dealer in stock should pay stamp duty the same as any other person?

Mr. COSTELLO : The stamp duty should be paid after the transaction is c:ompletedl and .not before. That is the difference in our contentions. We object to paying stamp duty b<>fore any business is done, merely on the advice. vVhat the Government arc ask­ing is that owners of stock should pay stamp duty for the privilege of a•kir:g stock agents to find buyers for their stock. Then, when a buyer is found. additional stamp duty has to be paid. While the "tamp duty in such cases will not yield a large amount of revenue, it will cause great inconvenience to stockmen generally, in addition t.o ham­pering the possibilities of s".le by restricting the circularising of stod{ lists to eo-agents.

Jl'r. Costello.]

1344 Starnp Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Arnendrnent Bill.

It is a hardship· to impose such a paltry tax on stockowners.

Mr. CARTER: Yoll will want your letters forwarded without stamps next.

.iVIr. COSTELLO: It is all very well for the hon. member for Port Curtis-who has made his money by running second-hand book shops and beer shops-to sit back here on a cosy bench and laugh. The imposition of this dut-y is one of the harassing tactics of the Government. I hope that the Treasurer will sec that the duty is not a wise one nor is it in the interests of the St-ate.

Mr. FERRICKS (South Brisba11c): There is one point which the members of the Oppo­·sition overlook, notwithstanding what has 'becn said about the harshness and blue ruin which will follow the imposition of this justi­fiable tax of &d. per £1,000, and that is, that the stockowner who lists 100 or 200 sheep for sale with the agents within a radius of 5J miles desir-es to obtain the best purchasing price for those sheep, but his action in circu­larising the stock agents within a radius of 50 miles makes him guilty of paltriness b:7 adopting methods of cheap advertising. {Opposition laughter.) If he would do the correct thing, he would ad.--crtiso those shc"l' in the local country paper, from which btock­owlHTS always expect support at election time. Iri order to evade their responsibility to support the local country papers, they adopt this cheap method of a-dv'~,rtising. When these sheep have been listed with a stuck agent, he, in conjunction with the nineteen others he has circularised, race around the countr.) in their cars in an emlca\'Ollr to find a buyer for them. (Opposition laughter.) If stock­owners ·de'lirc to find buyer::; for their surplus stock, they should adopt the ordinary busine-.s method of letting people know that fact b·­adveriising in the local paper. and not be guilty of thP paltry metho-d ol sneaking in underneath the pre'>s by having tholr coni­modities advertised practically without co;t~ rrhe rea"<Oil for the SOl'C'J1P" ~ Oll the nart O{ those members opposite who have alr-eady spoken is that full publicitv will not be given to the fact that a stockowner has stoek listed for sale.

Mr. PETERSO::'-J (Xormanby): I under­. stand hom the 'l'r·ca_-urcr that there is an exemption up i.o £100. I would like the hon. gPnUcnulll to rcrnembcr th~tt far1ncrs reap only ono or two crop.~ in a year, and tho c crop~- represent tlw \.Yag·cs of the farn1cr when thcv arc mar·ketcd. No other section of lab~ur in Australia or anv other Briti.;:h com­munit:!' has to pay a tax for placing its produce on the market in or·dcr to sccu1·e a return for its labour. The thing· is absuru. It mirht be all right as applied to house and {ancl agents and. ~10n1e othPr bu,:;inoss con­~ern ·, bLtt when it is applied to the wor·kcrs on the btnd, who haH' to put thn pro luct j th(~ir l2.bour on the n1arln t for sale. it 1~ nb·.urcl. These men will haY·e to st.amp thc•ir l('th1.rs of advice vYhe~l the amount of the produce is oyer £100. Snroly the hon. the 'Treasurer dor><1 not mPan that! Surelr. wheu he rcconsidc,rs that as1wct of the position, h"

ill rtalis0 how unjuc-:, it i:: The TR"ASD!tEH: \Vhy tax my electors 9

Mr. PETERSON: Wh: place the primary produccro in a diff.cL·nt position from othPr wagc-carn0rs? So L l' as ad vices arc con­cerned, .all other sections arc exempted, and rightly so; but vou say to the producer that

[Mr. Costello.

immediately he notifies his agent to arrange to sell his year's product he must affix a stamp to the letter. What are we coming to?

Mr. CARTER: Why all the tears?

Mr. PETERSON: The tear" are because. rinht from the beginning, the position of the m~n on the land has been made intolerable, and now it is proposed to make_ his position "or··c. Practically the whole time of these men is spent in filling out taxatiOn forms and so forth with the result that he has no trme .to plough his land .. I hope the Treasurer will take notice of this appeal. I know most GoYernmcnb have to raise revenue, but I ask for fairness. The income tax returns of these people sho" they arc making far loss than the basic wage.

The TREASCTRER : If that is true, they will not be cen-ding down produce to the value of £100.

J\!Ir. PETERSON: The farmer may be 6 , nding his "cason's. outp:c<t•. and he would be ill a deplorable position rf rt 'vere not worth £100.

The TREASURER : In one consignment?

1\Ir. PE'I'ERSON: Hce might be grow~ng lucerne; his stord<eeper n;ay be pressrng him; and he has to get rid of ~he who~e crop: and sends a letter of advrce to h1s agent. Surely he should not have t'? J?aY this tax on his labour when no ot~wr muus­trialist, arc asked to do such a thmg ! TJ:e hon. gentleman has given _way in certam clircctiom. and I hope he will be rcas(l]'able in this. \Ve in the city reap the ;·csulc of the efforts of thos< outback. It is our duty to see that \VC do not undulv harass them. [ ask the hon. gentlema_n. with_out any c.np­in'r criticism, to reconsider th1,, n1a"!::te~ and n1~kC' an exemption in regard to prnnary prudncers.

The THEA,ccRER: The hon. member for \Yvnnum reiterated again and again that t.h~ transactions of these people are only of the Yahw of a f01v pounds, and he knows sonwthing about it.

l\Ir. PETERSO~; . I am not. concerned "-ith that asped of the position. The fa_rmer is a worker of the truest type. and, rf he happens to get £100 worth of produce as a result of his year's labom·, bdorc he can rlispose of that Yoa say he must pay a tax h the Government. If ever there v, as a de'~~ dr·,prving con~idcration~ jt is . those people who live under most adverse crrcum­siance; and who have to put up with all sorts of conditions, such as droughts, etc.

1\h. ED\VARDS (~Vanango): Very often vdwn a pri1nary producer sends a consignment of produce or even stock to an agent to "''!! he finds himself in th<e position of not knowing within 50 per cent. what that rroducJ or stock is going- to fetch. Under the circurnstances, hovv lS hP go1ng to esti~ mate the right stamp duty to put on the letter of advice? Freqn"ntly produc~ sent for sale i." found on arriya} on the Bnsbanc market to be valuclr- '· I have seen a consignment of potatoe .. sent to Brisbane. and, although the producer anticipated obtaimng a fa_u: r( tun1, through not bc1ng able to get nd of it at tho time the consignment has bee om< pmctic tlly Yaluele·'S, and the _produc<;r has re _,eivcd nothing for it. Is rt a fan· thing for the Trca:::;nrcr to ask a man to IL!' , tax when notif:-.. ing his agent of a coubignrncnt of goods, when he does not know

Stamp Acts [22 OcTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1345

the value of it? The Treasurer does not know anything about the matter or he would not ask for a tax on a letter of ad vice.

The TREASURER: Do you understand it?

Mr. EDW ARDS: I think I do, as I have had a good deal to do with it.

The TREASURER: It must be a particularly bright day.

Mr. EDW ARDS: Coming from the Tr.ea­surer I take it for what it is worth, seemg that he acted the big boy when this discuss!on was before the House on the last occasion and withdrew an amendment, and he now has come along to-day like a whipped child and asked the Committee to accept it.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Order!

Mr. EDWARDS: This is a serious matter, and it is rather unfortunate that we should discover, when such a question is being dis­cussed, that the farmers e,nd people who are producing the wealth of this State have Much a number of enemies on the other side of the Chamber.

f4.30 p.m.] Mr. CARTER: They have no enemies here.

Mr ED\V ARDS: The hon. member for Port . Cm·tis seems to be one of the biggest enemies the producers have in this Chamber. \Vhere are the men who are the friends of the farmer?

Mr. COLLINS: Over here.

Mr. ED\VARDS: As the hon. member for Xormanby pointed out, the farmers are asked to pay a tax on the result of their vear's labour before then can sell their produce.

Mr. CARTER: Somebody is pulling your leg.

;\lr. EDWARDS: Kobod;, could pull the hon. member's leg when he "as pulling sour beer.

The TEMPORARY CH~UR::YIAN: Order!

Mr. EDWARDS: The Treasurer should ~onsider this matter more seriously than he is doing at the present time. I hope that he will show some of the strength which he is supposed to poesess, and not be carried away by the enemies of the farmers on the benches opposite. Let ~im £tand up for the people who are producmg the wealth of the State. and making the position of things such that hon. members opposite can draw the salary out of the State that they are drawing at the present time.

Mr. CoLLINS: You are drawing it, too.

Mr. EDW ARDS: It is high time that the farmers woke up and realised the channels through which they are being directly e,nd indirectly taxed by the Government until they are practically reduced to the position of being "wood and water joe' s'' to the State. It is time someone raised his voice in the interests of the men who are trying to rear their families in the back-blocks of Queensland, and who produce the revenue on which practically the whole of the State j, living. These men deserve every considera­tion we can possibly give them in the "ay of relieving them from taxation. We should help these men who produce the wealth of the State.

1926~4 0

The TREASURER (Hon. W: McCo~mack,_ Cai1·ns) : I want to give an rllustratwn of Lhe futility of the arguments put fon;ard by the Opposition.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: Tell us about the ridiculousness of having to put a stamp on a letter of advice.

The TREASURER: Take a farmer with £90 worth of produce who sends it _down in £10 lots to any reputable commrsswn agent or broker. Under the law as it now stands he pays a duty stamp of 2d. on each of those £10 lots on recerpt of the money.

Mr. KoTT: After the sale.

The TREASL;RER: Under this clause we exempt from duty all transactions up to £100 in value. If that farmer sends down the whole £90 worth in one lot to Barnes and Company. he does not pay one penny under this clause; he pays only 3d. stamp duty on the transaction, so that he is 1s. 3d. better off.

Mr. KING: He will still have to pay receipt duty.

The TREASURER: He is actually bette1: off than if he had sent down his produce m small lots. The hon. member for vVynnum knows that he is actuallv better off if he can send it down in big "tots than in small lots

:'Yir. l\IooRE: You have not made it pos­sible for him to send it down in one big iot. (Opposition laughter.)

The TREASURER: So you see how much talk can be raised about nothing.

:\1r. KELSO: That is a " supposititious" case. (Laughter.)

'fhe 'TREASURER: It is not a supposi­titious case or a hypothetical case; it is an actual case. I am just trying to grve the Committee an idea of how hon. members opposite are beating the wind, becaus0 under the present law sending the produce down in small lots costs a man more than a big lot will cost him under this cl a use.

Ho~. W. H. BAR:\TES (1Vynnum): Thll Treasurer interjected that he had agreed to an amendment exempting transactions Ul) to £100 in value. That is perfectly correct. He also stated that the hon. member for Wynnum had informed the Committee tJ;at the majoritv of transactions were umte,· £100. 'That· is perfectly correct also. I am referring to consignments in my own lmsl· noss-and any man in the business k11ows that the great majority of lines are •1ery much under £100 in value. Although v.e appreciate Yery much what the Tre.asurer has done the hon. gentleman cannot tgnore the argu{nents which have been raised as to the larger question. I want to raise a.::tot,l:ler point, and I. think the Treasurer wtll oee that he is gomg to penah~e. hts own. people to the benefit of those hvmg out01de the State. 'The ca'e I propose to give is not a manufactured one. A man living at Tentet· field on hvo or three occasionB has sent Inaize to my firm. On one occasion he sent 189 bags of maize, which would be worth about £200. Hov: is the Tree,surer going to make a man living at Tcnterfield pay this duty?

'I'ho TREASURER: Let me assure you that more produce goes from t.he electorate of the hon. member for Carnarvon into .l\ew SOl'th ·wales than comes this way.

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

1346 Stamp Acts [ASSE:MBL Y.] Amendment Bill.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: That may be so. I know nothing about sheep; but unfor­tunately considerable quantities of produce come into Queensland as a result of thP o ry \Yeather conditions here. as we know from our railwccy figures, and the people who send that produce will be exempt from this duty while our own people will have to pay. I am not so narrow as to say that we shoulC: live within ourselves, but it is very re~rGL· table that at a time like this we should have to send our money out to another State. People outside Queensland are sending thou­sands of pounds' worth of stuff to Queensland, and they will be exempt from this taxaticn.

Mr. KING (Logan): The Treasurer said that the altered law would place the farmer in a better position. I do not follow his argument.

The TREASURER: I did not say that. I said that the person who sent down the £90 worth of stuff would be in a better position than i:he person sending down nine £10 lots.

Mr. KING: He would be in the same position.

The TREASURER: No-in a better position.

Mr. KING: At the present time a person pays nothing on a letter of advice of a sale of £100 worth of produce, but he pays stamp dmy on the receipt of the money for his produce. A man forwarding a letter of advice in connection with the sale of £10 worth of produce pays nothing, but has to pay receipt duty. Now the persons forward­ing- a letter of advice in connection with the sale of £100 worth of produce will haYe to pay 3d., which he had not to pay before.

The TREASURER: Ho has to pay 3d. on the letter of advice, and 3d. receipt duty when he receives the moncv. \Vhat would be the position if he sent down ten lots of £10?

JYlr. KING: He would not pay anything ol! the letter of .advice, but would have to pay receipt duty when the money was received.

The TREAS"CRER: He would have to pay 2d. duty on ten different lots. making 1s. 3d. in all. That is the position of the small man.

Mr. KI?\G: He may have to pay a greater receipt duty than the other man.

The TREASURER: That is the case I madP out.

:Nlr. ::\1ooRE: He has always had to do that.

The TREASURER: The complaint was made on behalf of the small man.

Mr. KING: I am not talking about the small man. I am simply trying to show that there was nothing in the argument of the Trc:1surcr.

The TREASURER : You misunderstood me.

:Vlr. KIKG: This is a new duty, and, whilst it may operate harshly in some cases, it may not operate harshly in others. This is one of those pin-pricks or blisters of the soul that upset and embarraeq people.

The TREASURER : That is another argument altogether.

Mr. KING: It is a nuisance, irritating, and embarrassing, and for su,ch a small gain. I think the Treasur,'r has made up his mind that everybody will be taxed. and the only 11 ay in which he ea n reach th~se persons is bv taxing them in this way. He cannot tax them on the sale of the stuff, because there is no document to attract stamp duty. It

[flan. W. H. Barnes.

can operate harshly, because it will be embarrassing and annoying.

The TREAS"CRER : The incidence is not harsh. A man writing a letter of advice may think it harassing when he has to put a stamp on it.

Mr. KI:\G: No doubt it is. The TREASURER : All taxation is harassing.

:\lr. KI::-.JG: I dare say it is. I am not fllg-Lting that the taxation is not justifiable.

'l'ha ·rREASURER: Look at the row there was oYer the Yaluations rn Too1nbul recentl.J !

The' TE:\1PORARY CHAIR:\fAN : Order!

Mr. KI);G: Certain forms of taxation should not be indulged in by any Govern­ment-not on acount. of its incidence, but because it is irritatmg and senseless. We de,n·e to we business carried on free from unnecessary irritation. Vve want to avmd all irict10n as much as possible, and not to create pin-pricks and irritation which, after all, only encourage people to break t-he law. It nas been said that cases may o,rise \Yhere a person may not know what st-amp should be put on his letter of advice. H c may think .. My stock will be sold for a certain amount/' and stamp his advice accordingly. It may be his good fortune to receive a higher price, consequently the lett-er of advice should have been stamped ut a higher rate. An iHspcctor may come aiong, and in the course of his duty in overnauliug docnments in the otfice of the agent bee the letter, and say, ''Here is a mistake. This man should have stamped that iett. r of advice for a certain amount. \\·e will prooecute him for evading the law." That man would then be liable for a penalty. I was rather surprised that the hon. member tor South Brisbane, notwithstanding his. experience, should l:j,ave used the argument t-hat he did,

J\Ir. FERRICKS : That is the actual experi­ence.

:\Ir. KING: The argument of the hon. member was based on the assumption that all a person possessing property for sale had to do was to advertise that property iu the IH'wspapere in Brisbane, Rockhampton, Gr To,·:nsville. :Niany agent-s live in Too­\voornba. An owner who wants to sell a line of sheep simply writes to the agent, " I want you to put me on your list. I have 1,000 sheep which I want to sell." He makes that request because agents have inquiries from buyers.

lvlr. F£RRICKS: That is why he sends adviccs to t.wenty different agents. He gets advertising on the cheap.

;\h. KTl\G: It is ridiculous for the hon. mcn1ber e\·en to suggest that to advertise those shc•.;p in one newspaper would have the same effect as placing them in the hands of twenty different. agents. Stock agents have their lists, which they circularise to other agPnts and would-be sellers all over Quc'ensland and Australia.

:Vh. :.VIOORE: They could not carry on otherwise.

Mr. KI:r\G: I recognise that the 'rreasurer is out to obtain more revenue from stamp dut-ies because the finances of the State demand it; but at the same time there are frern<'ndous numbers of irritating matters brought into this Bill which will only create friction and bad feeling.

Stamp Acts [22 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 1347

Mr. MOORE (Anbigny): What we object t.o most is the leYying of stamp duty before the stock are sold. You only place them in the hands of the agent to sell. The remarks of the hon. member for South Bris· bane who depicted agents running around the ~ountry in n1otor-cars in an endeavour to sell a line of 100 sheep, are nothing but an absurdity. It. is the agent's job to send lists to sellers all over Queensland. The agent asks sellers to send in parti<Julars of the stock they ha Ye for sale, and then distributes particulars of that stcck to other agents. H. is the agent who distributes the particu­lars, not the owner. vV e object to paying for something from which we receive no result whatever. That is our main argument. vVe are not objecting merely because a man may send down produce here, because in manv cases, if he despatched £100 worth to Brisbane, he would probably split the consignment up into two lots. It very often happens that stock listed with agents are withdrawn from sale from various circum­stances-it may be a fall of rain-but, not­withstanding that, this Bill provides that the letter must be stamped.

In 1918 this Government put a special clause in an Act to exempt the worker from paying stamp tax on his wages, and now thev are bringing in a provision to make the" farmer pay a tax before he receives his wages. The whole position is an absurdity, and the Treasurer would do well to withdraw this ridiculous amendment compelling a farmer to pay stamp duty before he sells his stock. We do not object to the paYment of the duty after the sale is made.

The TREASURER: It does not apply to the farmer only, but to all transactions.

Mr. MOORE: It is different with trans­actions where a man sends a consignment to Brisbane and knows it will be sold. Here you have to place a stamp on the advice when there is a likelihood that no sale will eventuate.

The TREAS"CRER: It applie~ to house and land sales.

Mr. MOORE: That is a different thing.

The TREASl:RER: Such· a man might be selling the whole savings of his lifetime.

Mr. MOO RE: That happens only once; but, in the instance we quote, it is the man's general business-a thing happening every day. When a man sells a house he sells it because he is going elsewhere or intends to purchase another property. It is not his living.

'I'he TREASl:RER: When a ma.n puts a com­mission in .t!1e hands of an agent, who pays the adverhsmg and other costs?

Mr. MOORE : The seller as soon as the sale eventuates.

The TREASl:RER : The agent needs some secret fund until then?

Mr. MOORE: No. He receives his com­pensation. The hon. gentleman must know that in many instances sales will not take place, and it is a. definite hardship tc tax a man on something that may never take place. A person can easily dodge the pro­vision about the £100 by splitting up his consignment, but it is very unfair to tax the wages of the producer before he receives them.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningha.m): This morn­ing we had an appeal from th~ Treasuyer for advice a.nd suggestions after h1s confessiOn of failure. Now we arc offering suggestions. We contend that this imposition will be an added irritation to the primary producer. The Treasurer wants to create more revenue. Let him place a duty on the transaction. W o do not ob.iect to paying the tax s.o much as . to having a hindrance to busmess-a nuisance.

The TREASURER: Yo:.t have shifted away from the farmer now, a.nd moved to th€· stockowner.

Mr. DEACON: The general practice of a farmer who ha' stock to sell is to instruct an auctioneer to sell. T.he auctioneer usually advertises or sends out his list to other agents, " whacking up " the co.tnmission if a sale eventuates. That letter of advice will carry stamp duty whether a sale occure er not. A farmer desiring to sell stock may send a notification to quite a number of agents. The agent who effects the sale gets the commission, and it will be a bit l"Gugh on the farmer if he is compelled 1'0 pt.y a tax on each letter of advice. A little while ago the Treasurer said that verv few farmers would sell more than £1GO w;rth of produce at t.he one time, but it v·ery often happens that the farmer sells his ·,vholi> vea.r's crop in one lot. If he has a line of sh•;ep to· sell, he offers them in one lot. They may be the result of his year's work. and he will not be in a very largo way if the valne is not more than £100. He might s,:!l the whole of his crop in one lot, and it should not be necessary every time he write3 a letter to an a.uctioneer instructing hinJ to t5e!l anv­thing for him that he should have to pay a tax. Put the duty on the tr~n!'action when it is completed, and then we will not growl.

Mr. G. P. BAR~ES (TVarn·irt,): It is not the amount of the charge that we object to but the fact that the farmer must 'tamp the letter of advice before sending it along. The thing is absurd. Small consignments will be exempt under the amendment just accepted, but very few men sell their pro­duce on consignment. The groat bulk is sold after a letter of advice. I want to know where the wheatgrower comes in. The whoatgrower sends the whole of his crop to the Wheat Board at one and the same timf'. How will that consignment be treated? It may be that he will not advise the board at any time that he is consigning the wheat. He may simply send his wheat along. Has the wheatgrower to attach a stamp when advising the board or when sending the wheat 'I It has been rightly asserted here to-day that the farmer's crop is the farmer's wage for the year, and it is not an uncom mon thing for a farmer to sell the whole of his crop at the one time. Why should that man be singled out for taaxtion as against any other man in the community? Why should ho be forced to stamp every letter he sends to an agent or storekeeper ad7isi ng that he is is consigning certain produce for sale? The thing is too ridiculous. We shall

be the laughing-stcck of the [5 p.m.] world in this matter. We cannot

write a letter unless wo antici­pate the result of that letter by putting a stamp on it according to our idea of the value of the goods. I am' sure the Trea­surer will see the absurdity of any endeavour to carry out this idea. He dealt with the

Mr. G. P. Barnes.]

1348 Stamp Act8 [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment B~ll.

case of a man sending lots of £10 to a com­mission agent, but it is quite another thing when a man puts into the hands of an ageut the whole of his crop for the year.

The TREASURER: Do you say that they put ,;tock in the hands of ten or tweh-e different agents?

:Mr. CosTELLO: Five or six, at any rate. The TREASURER : Suppose you put 1,000

sh~ cp in the hand.,; of ten different agqnts: and everyone of them sold the sheep, how \\ould you get on?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: I know what I have done myself. You advise an agent that you have certain stock for sale. You may advise an agent in Toowoomba, Jl.lilcs, and \\Tarwick, and whoever effects the sale takes the -con1mrssron.

The TREASURER: Don't you a-dvise only one agent, who advises the others, and he is the man who will pay the stamp duty?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: That is frequently done, but l pursue the other policy-I do my business in my own way. I can assure the Treasurer that the ,.tamping of the letter advising an agent that you have certain produce or stock for sale will be extremely irritating and ought not to be enforced.

Mr. COSTELLO (Carrwrvon): I wish to enlighten the Treasurer with regard to the interjection he made to the hon. member for \Varwick. A stockowner mav advise haif a dozen different agents even in the same town.

The TREASURER: You said he did.

JVIr. COSTELLO: He does so. You can ,,ee the one line of sheep or ctttlc on every list in the town.

The TREASl:RER: That is listed bv the ori_;inal agent,cnot b:r the owner of the "stock.

Mr. COSTELLO: The first agent wires to the owner of the stock asking for a firm offer for two or three day~, and if the owner does that, he cannot negotiate with any other agent.

The TREASURER: Is not this what happens' You send your stock to Dalgety's, who list it. and the:~ then list it with the other agents.

:\h. COSTELLO: Dalgety's are liable for stamp duty under this B!ll.

The TREASURER : Of course, they are-not you at all.

Mr. COSTELLO: W·e do not list them only v. ith Dalgety's, and lot Dalgety's list them all O\ er the country. \V e ourselves list them in our own district. \V e arc only asking for exemption for the stockowners who list their stock with an agent. We are not asking for any assistance for the big brokers, and the TreasurPr should therefore accept the amend­ment. lt is not .an instruction to sell; it is only an iustruction to list. (Government laughter.) "Pl-ease list my stock "-that is not an instruction to sell. It is not a case of sending stock down to the market here in Brisbane; it is a case of getting an agent to fmd a buyer. We cannot do without the agent. We have not time to go about th<O country looking for buyers. The agent is necessary, .although he may be an evil. He takes his pound of flesh, but only if he does the business.

The TREASURER: He does useful service.

Mr. COSTELLO: \Ve are not complaining about a few pence if he does the business.

[illr. G. P. Barnes.

\Yhat we are complaining about is that we should have to pay before there is any business or before t-here is a reasonable prosped of doing business. If the Treasurer had a knowledge of the stock industry. he would see my point without any further argument. He is calling on the stockowners to pay a tax before they do business.

Jl.1r. KING (Logan) : The reply given by the Trt>asu:rer just now- by int.erjection forces one to the conclu>>ion that this provision goes further than one thought. The more you go into the question the greater do its ramifications appear. The hon. gent-leman spoke about a person advising Dalgcty's. They advise others. Every advice they send out is going to pay stamp duty. They are acting as agents for the principal, there­fore their acts are the acts of t-heir principal in the eyes of the law, so that the Treasurer is going to charge the principal with that stamp duty. It does not. come out of Dalgety's pockets; it comes out of the pockets of the stockowner, and he has to pay even if the stock are withdrawn and whether any buc,iness eventuat-es or not.

The TREASURER : The owner of the stock pa:cs 6d. on £1,000.

Mr. KING: He mav have to pay 6d. on £1.000 twenty times o;er.

The TREASURER: They do not complain about spending a "fiver" on advertising.

::\1r. KING: That is all right in theory, but my experience is that you get not-hing for nothing, and jolly little for 6d. Dalgety's are not philanthropists. and they are going to get. something for what they do.

The TREASURER: We have exempted trans­actiono up to £100.

::\lr. KING: That makes it really worse than it was before to a certain extent, because a man who sends down produce in £10 lots pay 2d. neceipt duty on e,·ery cheque received. On £100 that amounts up to 1s. 8d. The man who sends advice of a £100 lot has only 3d. stamp duty to pay, and an additional 3d. on his authority to sell.

The TREASURER: Is not this bringing the bigger man more into line with the small l1H1ll?

Mr. KING: No.

The TREASURER: It. is.

Mr. KIXG: I do not agree with that. The man who sends advice of a £10 lot pays 2d. as a receipt duty when the account sales ate returned, and on ten lots he would pay 1s. Sd., whereas the man who sends achicc of £100 worth would pay only 3d.

The TREAScRER : We are going to make him pay an additional 3d., making it 6d. in all.

J\Ir. KING: You are going to place the person who forwards a £10 lot on the same footing.

The TREAScRER: Xo, I altered that.

Mr. KING: Yon have not very much sympathy for the small man.

:\Ir. NOTT (Stanlry): When discussing this Bill at an earlier stage the Treasurer stated that, in the event of an agreement being signed by one person, and two or three other persons failed to sign and the agreement became abortive, there would be

Stamp Acts [22 OCTOBER.] AmP.ndment Bill.

a refund of the stamp duty. If I listed a lino of sheep with six agents and a sale was effected by one agent, would I obtain a refund of the stamp duty with respect to the others'!

The TREAScRER : How could it be an agreement?

Mr. KING: It is not an agreement. He is on!:· using it by way of illustration. You know that.

The TREASL'RER · I do not.

Mr. NOTT: The Treasurer stated that, ii the agreement was consummated. the stamp duty would have to be paid, but, in the event of the agreement not being corn· plated, the dutv would be refunded. Will the same principle apply in this case?

The TREASuRER: It is a different thing.

2\ir. 2'\0TT : In this case it is an adhesive stamp, but the principle is the same.

The TRE,ScRFR: You are wrong. One is a prospective agreement "hich is not concluded. In this case it is a document which has been concluded.

jl,1r. :","OTT: It is a notification of sale. Th, sale can be effected by one agent only.

The TREASURER: Oh, no.

~/Jr. 2'\0TT: The individual should be able to obtain a refund of the stamp duty wrth respect to those agents who do not effect the sale. . Questio!1-That the words proposed to be rnserted m cla.use 33 (JL?·. Gostello's amend· m~:nt) be .so mserted-put; and· the Com· mrt.tee drnded :-

L!Y"ES, 1~.

Mr. Barnes, G. P. Mr. Kelso , Barnes, W. H. , Kerr , Bell .. King , . Brand , lliaxwell , Costello , Moore , Deacon .. Kott , Edwards ,. Peterson •• Elphinstone , Hussell, H. :M. , Fry , Swayne

Teller.~: ~Ir. D,mcon an cl ~1r. E'iwanls.

~OE~. 31. Mr. Barber Mr. I.arcombe , Bertram , Lloyd " Bulcock .. McCormack , Carter , Mullan .. Collins , O'Keefe .. Cooper, W. .. l)ayne , Dash .. Pease , Dunstan .. Him·dan ., Ferricks , Hyan, C .. T . .. Folf'y ., Byan. R .• T. .. Gledson .. Rmith , Hanson .. I,Velllngt>-<~1. ., Hartley .. \Yilson .. Hynes , Winstanley .. .Tones \V right .. Kirwan

Tellers: }lr. Foley flllfl 1Ir. O'Kede.

PAIRS.

AYES. XoE~.

1Ir. Appel )fr . .\icTJ::tclllan

" Taylor .. P.rne·~

,. 'forgan .. Jlolloc>k Cor:-cr ., Hanlon

The TREASURER (Hon. W. McCormack r'airns) : I b~g to move the following amend: mcnt :-

" After line 32, page 14, insert the words-

'Exrmption.

· An appointment in writing for the sole purpose of appointing or authoris­ing a proxy to vote at any one meeting at which votes may be given by proxy.'''

This i, to cover an amendment made earlier in the clause

Amendment agreed to.

:Mr. KIKG (Logan): I beg to move the following amendment:-

.. On lines 36 to 42, both inclusive, pagE' 14, omit the following words:-

· (13.) The pronsrons under the heading · Request' are repealed and the following provisions are inserted in lien thereof :-

Rr qtu st unrl( ,. the prwvisions of the It( ul Propr tty Arfs-

Fm the registration or entering of trammission-£0 10 0;

For the registration or entering of record of dcath-£0 10 0;

Of any other kind not otherwise 'tamped.:_£0 2 6.' "

That would supersede the pruent provision in the ~'.et. reading-

.. Rcquect for the registration or the t..'-lltl•ring of any instrument under the ]H'OYisions of the Real Property ~-'cto< not otherwise stamped-£0 2 6."

l move t·hat for the purpose of reducing this fee to its original arnount--2s, 6d. I consider that, a reasonable amount to charge in the circumshnce,. I do not want to repeat what I said before in the case of an administration of a property worth £600, but I pointed out in that case that before an administrator could record transmission bY ckath. he incurred fees amounting to p;'acticalk £24. Those fees are to be in· creased by a further 7s. 6d., and in t.he particular ea"' I have in mind it would be a hardship to the administrator to have to pay them. When I mentioned those fees previously I forgot to mention ~wo othc ,, it.ems-2s. 6d. stamp duty, undertakmg to pay duty, and 2s. 6d. filing. Now the amount is to be increased by another 7s. 6d.

The THEASt:RER : It will be dangerous to, dir soon.

j\,lr. KING: You will not let us die soon. If the Treasurer cannot accept the whole­amendment. I would ask him to allow the concession to appl:;· to transmission by death in case of an intestacy.

Mr. KELSO (Tundah): This amendment means cntting out the provision, " For the registration or Pntcring of record of death, 10s." I would impr0ss upon the Treasurer that a tax of 10s. for this work when it used to be 2.-. 6d. is absolutely ridiculous. The Government will go down to po~terity as the Governmlnt that put on a coffin tax.

The TREASrRER: You know that has nothing to do with the registration of ~ death at all.

1vlr. Kelso.l

;).350 Stamp Acts [ASSE:YIBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. KELSO: The hon. member for Loo:'Ln lws very ably dealt with transmission- by death, and I am talking about a stamp dutj on a requisition which is recorded in the Real Property Office in order to get a record of death.

The TREASl:RER: You are talking about it, but you say it is a record of death.

Mr. KELSO: It is a registration of death. In the case of a married woman her hus · band's name has always to be on the deed.

The TREASURER : On transmission by death a person may become entitled to prop0rt/ worth thousands of pounds.

1\Ir. KELSO: The suggestion made by the hon. gentleman shows that he does not under­stand what I am talking about. A married \YOinan's narno is recorded on the document, and, when her husband dies, the Heal Pro­perty Office insists that the husband's dec1th must be recorded on that deed because, before she mortgages or transfers that pro­perty, she has to describe w.hat she is. After her husband's death she cannot des~ribe her­self as the wife of somebody who is dead. S.be has to describe herself ·as a "widow," and before there is any transaction after that in the way of mortgaging that property or ·transfernng It a record of her husband's death must be lodged ,,, ith the registrar, and she is regarded then as a ',\'idow. lip to the present time there lws only been a charge of 2s. 6cl. on that request,' but now for sDme inscrutable reason the department wggests that that fpe be raised to !Os. I suggest that the hon. gentleman shDuld allow the fee to be ldt at 2s. 6d. It is the talk of the town amongst those interested in these things, and it is the general opinion that the Governm<>nt aw hitting dead men or th<> representativ<'S of dead men for an oxtra 300 per cent. stamp duty on a cortrtin docum'ent.

The TREASURER: The beneficiary pays.

Mr. KELSO: It is not a case Df th<> bene­ficiary. Let me take the case of a wowan who owns a. piece Df property in her cwn ncune. She IS a married \.Voman.

[5.30 p.m.]

The TREASl'RER: This is a supposititious case.

"1r. KELSO : This is the case of a woman ·who is registered as the owner of a propertv 111 her own right as a marri<>d woman. If her husband dies. his death must be recorded on the d<Jed. There are hundreds of casp' like that. lip to the present time the request has had to _be~r a stamp duty of 2s. 6d., and ·the charge rs now to be 10s.

The TREASURER : \V e are increasing it.

_Mr. KELSO: I hope the hon. gentleman IVIll allow thrs to come under the o-eneral heading Df documents chargeable with b2s. 6d. duly.

Amendment (.1Ir. Kino) negatived.

Mr. KELSO (Nundah): I desire to move another amendment.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! The hon. member has already exhausted the time allow~.<! him under the Standing Orders for drscusswn of clause 33. Hon. members seem to be under the impression that the various paragraphs are clauses and that thev are entitled to the full time 'on each para:. :graph, but that is not so. Seeing, however,

Plr, 11 elso.

that the clause is long and contentious, I will allow him to move the amendment.

:Mr. KELSO: Thank you. Mr. Cooper. I beg to move the omission on lines 43 to 57 of paragraph (14), namely-

" (14.} The followinrr, provrswns are added to the said schedule:-

Share -entificatc or other ducumcnt-

(1) Entitling any person to or to become the proprietor of any share or part of any share in any corn pan.y or proposed company in Queensland.

(2} Issued or deliv-ered in Queens­land and entitling any person to or to become the proprietor of any share in any con1pany or proposed corn­pan:<· registere-d or proposed to be reg·istored or establish<Jd at some place outside Queensland.

\Vhere the number of shares in the lnstrun1ent-

Does not exceed 100-£0 0 6;

Exceeds 100, but does not exceed 1.000-£0 1 0;

Exceeds 1,000--£0 5 0.'' Tlw TREAS17RER: You have already con­

firm<'d this on the second reading. This is the principle.

Mr. KELSO: I have alread:· pointed out the hardship of this particular tax. It is proposed to tax a man who gets a share cc'rtificatc.

The TREASURER: It is entirely new.

J'.h. KELSO: Yes, like some of the other taxes in this Bill. I ha,;o already pointed out th0 transaction which occurs when a man is buying f h 'res. U ne! er this Bill we are goi!~g to tax hitn-firstly, on a contract note when he is buying shares; secondly, we already impo, c~ statnp 'Cluty on a transfer; urd. t'hirdly, when the compan:<· gives him son1c eYidcncc of o\vnership in the '\vay of a. scrip. we aro going to put another tax of 6d. on a graduated scale.

The TREASURER : This is done in the other States.

Mr. KELSO: The hon. gentleman has told us that ad infinitum during the passage of this Bill. but that has nothing to do with the argument. The hem. gentleman has suffici-ent abilitv to consider cverv case on its merits. I .,;ould ask the hon. gentleman whether it is a fair thing that there should be three taxes on a man because he has the tenwritv to buv shares-to dare to be thriftv. In many case~ these are only small tran's­actioes.

Mr. CARTER: Tho,· are gambling transac­tions.

_;j,fr_ KELSO: They are not gambling. The hon. member would be only too pleased to [ay hold of any number of shares. I woul·d asl< the Treas~ner to consider this matter. He has already imposed two taxes-one on the contract note and one on the transfer. Ho might be a little reasonable and allow the certificate to be issued without stamp dut0·•

The TREAS17RER: Thev deal in shares as an investment, and this is the only tax they pay.

Mr. KELSO: I do not know. The hon. gentleman has sprung this on us. On the formation of a new company, if a man is

Stamp Acts Amendment Bill. [22 OcTOBER.] Townsville Water, Etc., Bill. 13.)1

notified that a certain number of shares has been allotted to him, he has to pay duty.

The TREAS"GRER : Yes.

Mr. KELSO: That is the first tax. The TREAS"GRER: That is the only tax m

that case.

Mr. KELSO: I admit that the aborigine members do not pay any transfer duty, but after a company is formed thousands of transactions take place. Stocks are sold <•very day, and I hold that there are three ·duties chargeable on each transaction. The ~hareholder must have a title to his shares lTl the shape of a. share certificate, and apparently the hon. gentleman or his depart­ment thinks that. because he must have that it is a. good opportunity to squeeze th~ unfortunate shareholder once more. Does the Treasurer think it a fair thing that he should he compelled to pay three taxes? I ask him to accept the amendment and -e·wmpt that man from the third tax.

Amendment (M·r. Ke/,,o) negatived.

. Mr. H. M. RUSSELL (Toombul): I would ~Ike t_o ask the Treasurer what his intention I With regard to i_mpr.esscd stamps on transfers of scnp. Scnp circulates all round the country. and it may be very inconvenient for the holder to have to stamp it.

. The TREASURER: They arc stamped by the -ecrctary of the company.

. Mr. H. M. RUSSELL : Then the onus IS on the company to collect that duty?

The TRKISURER: The company pays it.

. Mr.- H. M. RUSSELL: Then ,-our inten­·tion IS to make the tax a tax on the companv and not on the holder of the shares? "

The TREASURER: The company is liable ·under the Act.

, Mr. H. M. ~US SELL: It does not sav oo, ~ut I take I~ that, the matter not being sp.emfically mentwned, the holder of the scrin Will have to pay, for the same reason tha·t the transferee of the scrip pays the duty.

Mr. KELSO (Nundah): Before the ~lause goes through I •yould like the Treasurer to tell us what action he proposes to take in the .case of somebody who authorises an auctioneer to sell certain stuff and to realise '!hd_bcs~ offer. I would like him to give some m wahon as to what he is going to do in ·the way of collecting stamp duty.

. The T~EASURER: You had better get that 111forma.t10n from the Stamp Office.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE (Oxley): I desire to a~k. the Treasurer whether the documents "hich have bee!" !or some weeks in the office ·of the Co:nmisswner a waiting assessment BilL be subject to the now duties under this

. The TREASuRER: The documents at present m th,, office Will not be assessed under tile new Act.

Clause 33, as amendod, agreed to.

The House resumed. ·

_The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN reported the BilJ with amendments.

. The Bill, as amended, was taken into con­Blderahon.

The third reading of the Bill was made an 'Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

TO\VNSVILLE \VATER AUTHORITY (WATERWORKS APPROVAL) BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): In the intro­Juctory stages of this Bill I stated that it hnd been introduced at the request of the Townsville City Council to give them statu­tory control over the waterworks, in the form of a weir, con6tructed by them in the Ross River out. of their own general revenue in 1907, and also to enable them to prevent the pollution of the water, thus protecting the health of the people of 'l'ownsville. As the works were constructed out of their own revenue instead of a loan from the Trea­sury, I do not know what the actual cost of the work was, but I understand that it was edimatcd to cost £4.066. This particular work formed part of works for which a special loan of £35.000 was applied but not obtained in 1906. The weir itself is not within tho local authority area, but is within the Townsville water area. It has a. catchment of 307 squ'are ,niles and the weir backs the water up Ross River for a distance of 5 miles. It is quite likely thrtt, if the Townoville Citv Council fences the wa.tcr in. it will interfere with the rights of a few owners who \Yater their stock at some waterholes in the area. It will be ,., cognised that the right of the people of Townsville to a pure and ample water supple­IS paramount to those who mer0ly use those waterholcs for the purpose of watering stock. HoweYer, the Commissioner of Irrigation and Water Supply will insist that, if present '"ater facilities are in'erfere.d with, the Council must take some steps to provide working arrangements under which the [Woplo I have mentioned will have a reason­able supply of water. I have ascertained that the Queensland :\Teat Export Company had a license issued to them in 1916, under which the~· were able to procure a supply of wator from Ross River below the Council's weir b.v sinking n cylinder in the bed of the si rPam. The.v desire, of course, that their rights o.hould he similarly protected. To make it clear that their rights will be pro­tected in that. regard, I propose to move an amendment to clause 3 so as to make that clause read-

" Subject always to the paramount rights of th0 Commissioner of Irrigation and Water Supply."

I move-" That the Bill be now read a second

time."

Question put and passed.

C01\11IITTEE. (Jfr. F. A. CoopC1'. Bremer, onr of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, in the chr:ir.)

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. Clause 3-"Approval of waterworks"­

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): I beg to move the following amendment :--

" On line 28, page 3, at the commence­ment of subclause (2), insert- the words-

' Subject always t<J the paramount rights of the Commissioner of Irriga­tion and Water Supply.'"

Amendment agreed to.

Hon. T. Dunstan.]

1352 Townoville Water, Etc, Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): I also beg to move the following consequential amend­ment-:-

" On lines 32 to 34, omit the words­'(Subject always to the paramount

rights of the Commissioner of Irriga­tion and \Vater Supply).'"

Amendment agreed to. Clause 3, as amended, agreed to. Clause 4-"N o right of action against Water

Authority"-

Mr. MOORE (Aubigny): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" After line 18, page 4, insert the words-

' Provided that in the case of depri­vation of access or diminut-ion of water as aforesaid detrimentally affecting the interests of any person having a lawful right to such access or to such water. the Townsville Water Authorit-y shall as far as practicable provide other satisfactory means of access or other satisfactory water supply as the case may be and in default of so doing shall pay reasonable compemation to the per· son or persons so affect.ed.' "

The Bill gives the council control, not only of Ross River, but of tributaries and creeks running into Ross River. There are probably many cases whei·e people with property on the banks of these tributaries at present have the lawful use of the water for stock purposes. Presumably this is depriving them of that right.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: They will be provided for in clause 3, as now amended.

Mr. MOORE: Subject to the Commis­sioner of Water Supply and Irrigation. but the Comrrissionor under the \Vater Act is empowered to provide water only where reasonable and practicable. If it is not practicable, then these people will be left without water. If they haYe certain riparian rights, those rights should be protected. I understand there are three or four individuals in the district who will not be allowed to wa tor their stock in the tributaries of Ross River. and some provision should be made for them.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA!';DS: I have already stated that the Commissioner for Water Suppl~· and Irriga,tion will insist that they be provided with water.

Mr. MOORE: I am quite satisfied if the Minister will give that assurance, but the Bill does not sa~· he must do it. It simply says " where practicable." It is only reason­able that these people should be protected. I do net want to preYent the Townsville people from getting a pure water supply, but other people who have rights in regard to water in these tributaries should be pro­tected. If they are protected, I am satisfied.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan. Gym pie): Previously I stated that the Commissioner for Water Supply and Irrigation will insist on the Townsville Council taking steps to provide reasonable watering arrangements where the rights of persons who have rtccess to water now may be inte~fered with.

[Hon. T. Dnnstan.

Mr. "lHOORE (Aubigny): Under those circumstances, 1 ask permission to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 4 agreed to. Preamble agreed to. The House resumed. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN reported the Bill

with amendments. The third reading of the Bill was made an

Order of the Day for Tuesday next. The House adjourned at 5.55 p.m.