Improving the energy performance of privately rented homes –
Stroma Certification Response
Introduction
Stroma Certification are delighted that government has issued
this consultation, which represents an opportunity to comment and
offer alternatives to the proposals within the document. Stroma
Certification are keen for our members and clients to take this
opportunity to provide the government with feedback, as this can
prove vital in the process of creating legislation and regulations.
We have already seen that the government is listening and willing
to change their original proposals, where there is a groundswell of
opinion and empirical data.
Question 1: We would welcome views on possible impacts of the
policy on the size of the PRS sector, the effect this could have on
vulnerable households, and suggestions to mitigate this effect
where it does occur, including any evidence.
Stroma Certification believe the proposed legislation is key to
the long-term strategic goals to improve energy efficiency and
reduce carbon emissions associated with the housing stock in
England and Wales.
The PRS sector is growing and therefore any improvements in the
stock will have an increasing benefit to the government's targets.
Less landlords own single properties, so there will be a greater
potential impact on landlords, especially those with larger
portfolios, made up of older housing.
It should be simple and easy to implement, understand and
enforce, in order to be effective. We have already seen the impacts
of MEES on the PRS sector, a lower level of impact (properties
rated below an E). Whilst certainly not empirical evidence, there
has been minimal negative reported impacts on landlords and
vulnerable tenants. By ensuring that buildings that are rented are
achieving a minimum energy efficiency standard, those tenants who
are considered vulnerable should benefit from cheaper to run,
warmer, more health homes.
As the minimum standard becomes more difficult to achieve, the
impacts are likely to be felt most greatly by landlords. Our
concern revolves around Landlord ‘dumping’ buildings that are going
to be difficult to improve or rely heavily on the exemptions
process both of which will not benefit tenants. The exemptions
process must be both simple to use and easy to police, and the
required evidence MUST robust and standardised.
Question 2: Do you foresee any impacts for protected groups?
Please provide evidence to support your answer.
Having sufficient supply of lower cost housing is always
challenging as demand usually outstrips supply.
It is clear from reviewing rental property listings, that the
lowest cost housing tends to be on the lower end of energy
performance spectrum and a concern is that the cost of improving
these lower performing properties (up to the minimum spend values
proposed) will be disproportionately costly when viewed in terms of
the value of the property. This could manifest itself in landlord’s
‘dumping’ their lower value, poorer performing stock, which removes
these cheaper rental properties from the market. The lower supply
would therefore make it even more difficult for tenants to access
lower cost rentals.
Additionally, it worth considering the challenges around
accessing properties for protected groups. The worse performing
properties may require extensive improvement works to take place
and the inconvenience of this, over several phases may result in
tenants not allowing access unless they are aware of the reasons
and benefits of the work. Stroma Certification believes that
education around the regulations, the concepts of energy efficiency
and the benefits are key to successful implementation. There was
very little awareness of the first phase of MEES within the tenant
community. Stroma Certification educated our DEA members who had
first-hand experience of this when assessing PRS properties. Stroma
Certification also attended several Landlord Association events and
lectures to raise awareness of MEES, and it was clear that
Landlords were not fully aware of the implications of the
regulations and we discovered that tenants were even less aware.
Information for landlords is different to information for Tenants,
and whilst there was an excellent document available for Landlords,
it was not widely known about and there was very little information
available that was dedicated for tenants. This should be considered
as part of the review, and additionally, the way the information is
made available for all groups – online, offline, social media,
print etc.
Question 3: We would welcome views on any possible long-term
impacts of COVID-19 that could impact on making the required energy
efficiency improvements from April 2025 and suggestions to mitigate
this effect where it does occur, including any evidence
Stroma Certification has evaluated the impacts of Covid on
property visits in 2020, and in particular, the impact on the
provision of EPCs during the pandemic. Outside of a full lockdown,
which was the initial reaction to the first wave, where energy
assessments were restricted to empty properties and covid secure
spaces, the assessment industry was able to operate successfully
and safely at very high volumes (approx. 140,000 EPCs per month).
Therefore, Stroma Certification would suggest that assessments can
continue outside of a full lockdown to the necessary levels
required by MEES.
The installation of measures is not an area that we have
expertise in, however, we suspect that certain measures may be more
difficult to install in a pandemic situation, especially with
vulnerable members of the public present. Stroma Certification
would suggest that the legislation affords landlords appropriate
grace to improve a building where it can be proven that measures
are intended to be installed (contract or agreement in place to
install) but it is not possible in the circumstances at play where
applicable. A 6-month period of grace is afforded to new landlords
upon purchasing a substandard property. A similar allowance could
be applied to unforeseen circumstance such as a pandemic.
Question 4: Do you agree with the government’s preferred new
target of EER C as a minimum energy performance standard in the
PRS?
Stroma Certification welcomes the new target of EPC C as a
minimum – we feel this is a challenging and ambitious target, we
feel it is needed in order to contribute towards our energy
efficiency strategy and contribute towards the Governments Clean
Growth Strategy and the recently stated 10-point plan.
Stroma Certification would like the government to consider a
blended approach to the minimum rating where it is not possible for
the property to be improved within the cost cap or via the measures
noted on the EPC (i.e., there is little scope for improvement).
In many off-gas properties, achieving a C rating is particularly
difficult due to the weighting placed upon the EPC rating by the
fuel cost. In many cases, even once the envelope is thermally
improved the rating may still be below a C. However, these
properties are more likely to use renewable heating sources.
Question 5: We would welcome your views on the pros and cons of
these alternative metrics, in relation to our overall policy goals
around reducing carbon emissions, fuel poverty, and energy bills;
please provide evidence with your answer.
Fuel poverty remains one of, if not the major concern for energy
policy drivers in the UK, and the EPC has fuel costs at its core –
the EPC rating (Energ Efficiency Rating – EER) is heavily factored
by the cost of the fuel that powers the heating and hot water in
the calculation of the headline EPC rating.
However, this is not the only figure or metric that features or
could feature on an EPC. Until recently, the following metrics were
shown on the EPC;
· Current and potential Energy Efficiency rating (EER)
· Current and potential Environmental Impact Rating (EIR)
· Heat demand for heating and hot water
· Primary Energy (Energy Requirement per m2)
· Current and potential Carbon Emissions (in tonnes)
After the release of the new register, the EIR was removed from
the certificate. This was done, it appears, as a result of market
research and should be reinstated.
The government may wish to consider other metrics that focus on
specific areas that support the policy goals. For reducing energy
bills and fuel poverty, it makes sense to focus on the EPC rating
and possibly also the Primary Energy Factor. In terms of reducing
Carbon Emissions, it makes sense to have a focus on the EIR.
It may also be sensible to consider an approach which allows a
combination of improvements to these metrics, for example,
properties in off grid areas traditionally score poorly in terms of
EPC rating (EER) due to the fuel cost factor that is present in
this metric. Even when installing or using a renewable, such as an
ASHP, the EPC rating is impacted using electricity to fuel the
heating system. However, the EIR will be much higher due to fact
that the heating is considered low carbon, and the lowering of the
carbon factor for electricity.
Likewise, the primary energy requirement of a property would
change markedly if the insulation at an off grid/non-gas property
were improved, but the EPC rating would still be negatively
affected by the fuel cost.
Therefore, it would make sense to allow the EIR and/or Carbon
Emissions, along with primary energy to have weight when
considering policy decisions.
Question 6: Do you agree with the government’s preferred policy
scenario of requiring ‘new tenancies’ to reach EER C from 1 April
2025 and ‘all tenancies’ to reach EER C by 1 April 2028? If not, do
you have alternative suggestions; please provide evidence with your
answer.
Stroma Certification is in support of the proposal, and believe
the phased approach works well. We also feel the timeline suggested
gives enough time for Landlords to make improvements to their
properties to get them to the preferred standard.
It is key for all stakeholders to fully understand the
regulations and that compliance with them is likely to require a
whole house approach, so it is essential that PAS 2035 is
incorporated into the regulations. Otherwise, landlords will be
inclined to install measures separately, which could introduce
unintended consequences, ignore the need for sufficient, future
proofed ventilation and correctly sized/appropriate heating systems
and ultimately could cost the landlord more in terms of outlay,
whilst still not achieving the required outcome.
To that end, education for all stakeholders, with suitable
guidance, advice and signposting to these is absolutely key.
Question 7: Do you agree with increasing the cost cap to £10,000
inclusive of VAT as our preferred policy proposal? If not, please
explain why not and provide evidence with your answer.
Stroma Certification are in support of increasing to cost cap to
£10,000 – during the first phase of MEES, once introduced, the cost
cap of £3,500 appeared to work well as it provided clarity to
landlords and prevented many no cost exemptions. The data in the
impact assessment does suggest that this is a sweet spot in terms
of number of properties that can be improved to EPC band C within
that cap.
Question 8: Should the £10,000 cost cap be adjusted for
inflation?
The cost of improvement is likely to increase along with
inflation, and cost of rent is likely to mirror this too.
Therefore, we feel the cost cap should also be adjusted in line
with inflation as appropriate.
The cap should be reviewed periodically, in line with other
considerations, such as the cost of new technologies and cost of
existing measures becoming cheaper over time, as a result of
economies of scale and improvements to installation techniques
etc.
Question 9: Should a requirement for landlords to install fabric
insulation measures first be introduced? If yes, when, and how
should such a requirement be implemented? If no, what are the
alternative installation methods that maximise energy efficiency
outcomes? Please provide evidence to support your answer
Yes, a fabric first approach should be taken as this is
fundamental to ensuring that the property is ‘retrofit ready’ and
future proofed, including a focus on ventilation.
The most logical way to do this to implement PAS 2035 as the
process – it is designed with fabric first in its approach. One of
the outcomes of PAS 2035 via an onsite Retrofit Assessment is
advice and a medium-term improvement plan. If each property had a
plan in place, then careful considered and timely improvement works
could be implemented, following the PAS (2035 and 2030) with a
monitored result. An updated EPC should be completed following
improvement for the landlord to claim compliance with the
regulations, and for the collective improvements across the housing
stock to be analysed by government and other stakeholders.
Time needs to be given to allow Landlords to save the money to
install these measures. As an example, if a Landlords stock
comprises of solid/stone walls, this may be expensive.
There should be an increased focus on fabric first based funding
mechanisms and drawing attention to the most important
improvements. An updated/sectioned set of recommendations on the
EPC (Fabric Upgrades on the EPC in a highlighted fashion) would
seem logical.
Question 10: We would welcome views on the alternative of a dual
metric target to reach both EER Band C cost metric and also EIR
Band C carbon metric, with an increased cost cap of £15,000
inclusive of VAT.
As noted in our response to Q5, Stroma Certification feels that
the EPC should give equal footing to the metrics of Cost/EER,
Carbon and Energy Requirement/Primary Energy. This is especially
important in off-gas grid properties where the fuel cost of
electricity, oil and LPG is prohibitive to the EPC rating
(EER).
The direction of travel in general is towards non-fossil fuel
sources, primarily Heat Pumps, and the government has indicated its
ambition to have 600,000 heat pumps installed by the latter half of
the decade.
The EPC rating should remain as it is; a way of indicating the
efficiency and cost of running a dwelling, as this helps with fuel
poverty policy, however we need to better include, incorporate and
reward properties which achieve better results in the other metric
areas – particularly for carbon.
Stroma Certification cannot effectively advise on whether
increasing the cost cap to £15,000 would promote greater
improvements in properties that are going to cost more than £10,000
to improve to the standard. We are somewhat wary of increasing
costs to beyond what a landlord could afford (especially those with
larger portfolios of mainly older, solid wall properties). If
affordability is compromised too much, many Landlords may seek to
find ways to qualify for exemptions which may have a reverse effect
on the success of the regulations. Stroma Certification is however
favourable of allowing such landlords the ability to improve
properties up to the cost cap (whatever this is set at) and get
credit for improvements in other metrics, especially carbon, as
this is so key to the UK’s future strategy and commitments.
Question 11: Should government introduce an affordability
exemption? If so, we would welcome views on how such an exemption
should be designed and evidenced, and any potential impacts on the
PRS market.
When the first phase of MEES was introduced, a zero-cost
exemption was allowed. Every property that couldn’t obtain funding
from the various incentives and grants available were instantly
exempt, if evidence could be provided. We must avoid a similar,
easy to exploit exemption route.
Stroma Certification is a member of PEPA, who have recently
created an exemptions scheme operating framework, which is designed
to ensure that exemption evidence is complete, robust, clear and
accurate, and can only be uploaded to the exemptions register by a
competent and certified person. Stroma suggests that government
investigate this as an option to ensuring that exemptions are
quality assured and can be relied upon.
Question 12: What should the eligibility criteria be for an
affordability exemption if it is introduced, and how can the
criteria accommodate fluctuations in a landlord’s finances and/or
in the value of a property? Please provide evidence to support your
answer. Improving the energy performance of privately rented homes
19
Stroma Certification would suggest that the only exemptions
relating to affordability should centre around landlords with a
high number of properties with high-cost measures (i.e. where all
properties would require the full cap in order to improve to EPC
C).
Having said that, given the anecdotal evidence that suggest that
MEES and EPC ratings are already impacting on house valuations, it
is likely that landlords, may benefit from lower purchase prices or
at least be able to negotiate lower purchase prices to be able to
afford the improvement works.
Stroma Certification would also refer the reader back to our
previous answer to Q11, relating to the exemptions register and
certification of competent people, capable of assessing and
producing MEES exemption evidence.
Question 13: Should we incorporate TrustMark into energy
performance improvement works? If not, please explain why not and
provide evidence with your answer.
Yes, this is already in place via PAS 2035.
Question 14: What role can the private rented sector play in
supporting the rollout of smart meters and what are the barriers
and possible solutions to achieving this?
Stroma Certification are not best placed to advise on this
question. However, the current EPC methodology does not distinguish
between older meters and smart meters but focuses on the tariff
meter type. One suggestion we can provide is that some sort of
notification on the EPC is put in place to show that the property
has a smart meter.
Question 15: We would welcome views on whether the PRS
Regulations may need to be tightened further for the 2030s? Please
provide evidence with your answer.
It is hard to say what the landscape will look like in the 2030s
from where we are now. 10 years ago, Stroma Certification firmly
believed we would be building homes that were considered net zero,
and this hasn’t happened.
We need to set targets that a challenging but achievable and
ensure there are mechanisms and capabilities in place within the
wider industry to achieve those goals. We also need to be brave and
not waiver from these targets by ensuring that they are set in law
and are robustly enforced.
If we can do that, then reviewing what we do in 2030 will be
easier to do earlier in the timeline.
A final point would be that we should not simply consider EPC C
as success. The bottom end of the C bracket is a 69 rating on the
EPC, and these properties still require a lot of energy and emit
many tonnes of carbon over their lifetime.
We should also commit to ensuring that new properties build now
and in the future meet future MEES as a bare minimum, and this
certainly not the case currently. They should also meet fabric
requirements to ensure they don’t need to be upgraded again in
order to be capable of utilising renewable heating sources
(renewable ready). We should also avoid the temptation of putting
PV on properties to comply with MEES, whilst the fabric performance
is still not future proofed. So, future incentives should avoid
this, and MEES needs to consider this.
Stroma Certification would also point to PRS legislation such as
Sections 8 and 21 which need to equality protect landlords and
tenants, need to be carefully adapted to endure that MEES
regulation aspects are featured.
Question 16: What are the other steps government could take to
increase awareness and understanding of the PRS Regulations?
A compelling, clear and informative publicity campaign is
required, which sells the benefits of the regulations to all
stakeholders (Landlords, tenants, agents and legal
representatives).
Energy Assessors and Energy Professionals are key to giving
timely and accurate advice to stakeholders and we need to empower
these individuals to give this advice.
As noted previously, we also need to see robust compliance and a
competency scheme for exemptions to ensure that the regulations are
met correctly and not bypassed.
The existing guidance documentation for tenants and landlords
needs to be updated in good time, prior to the launch of the
regulations, which a simple and clear summary of the ‘heads of
terms’ would be improve key understanding within stakeholders. Also
appreciate that tenants should be pushing for this from their
landlords and harness their ‘buying power’ where possible.
Landlords who improve their properties to be as efficient as
possible should also benefit from minimal void periods and high
rental fees. We recognise this is very much dictated by supply and
demand, however.
Question 17: Is the introduction of a PRS property compliance
and exemptions database necessary to help local authorities to
proactively enforce minimum energy efficiency standards? If yes,
should we include the per-property registration fee within the cost
cap? If not, what alternatives to a PRS property compliance and
exemption database would you suggest?
Absolutely, this is hugely important to the success of the
regulations.
The cost of registration should be included in cap as per
suggestion - £30 is not a huge chunk out of the cap and could be
seen as a small sweetener for landlords.
Question 18: Do you agree that government should set a maximum
total registration fee for landlords with a very large portfolio?
If yes, how many properties should qualify as a “very large”
portfolio? What should the maximum fee be? If you do not agree to a
maximum total registration fee proposal, do you have alternative
suggestions?
Stroma Certification cannot comment on this question.
Question 19: Should government seek primary powers to place a
requirement on letting agents and online property platforms to only
advertise and let properties compliant with the PRS Regulations? If
not, please explain why not and provide evidence with your
answer.
Yes, only properties that meet the regulations should be allowed
to be advertised.
Question 20: Should government remove the seven to twenty-one
day exemption period on landlords making all reasonable efforts to
provide a valid EPC prior to a property being marketed or let? If
not, please explain why not and provide evidence with your
answer.
Yes - there are hardly any reasons for an EPC not to be done in
time for the marketing of a dwelling.
There are no issues with supply within the EPC market, given
that there are over 12,000 certified energy assessors who are
currently practicing. The market has delivered over 2 million EPCs
per annum in previous years and there is capacity for similar
numbers now.
The central EPC register needs to make it easier for landlords
to find assessors in their local area, if needed, by specifying if
an assessor is a DEA (rather than a SAP assessor) but this is a not
a huge issue and is easily overcome.
Question 21: Should government increase the level of the fixed
civil penalty fine for offences under the EPB Regulations
(currently set at £200)? If yes, how high should the fine be?
Yes – the current fine is far too small and hardly ever issued.
It is therefore offering zero deterrent to those who fail to market
their properties in line with the law.
There needs to be a wholesale change to the way compliance and
enforcement is handled for EPBR. Currently funding for enforcement
is derived from part of the EPC lodgement fee paid to the
government. This money however is not ring fenced and it is highly
unlikely that any of this funding is used to enforce the
regulations. The funding needs to be ring fenced and fines raised
should be fed back into the process and collected to aid quality
assurance processes in the industry, for the betterment of the
EPC.
Fines should either be set at a sufficiently high figure to
provide a deterrent, and certainly should be higher than an average
months' rent in the UK, and Stroma would suggest £1,000 or consider
multiples of months' rent (for serious non-compliance for example)
for the Landlord and/or letting agent. It would be extremely
motivating if both stakeholders were fined.
As a side note, PEPA have been running a small-scale whistle
blowing process for energy assessors to highlight EPBR
non-compliance. PEPA write to the agent where known or property
owner, and normally a single letter is enough to prompt corrective
action.
Question 22: Should government enable LAs to inspect properties
for PRS compliance? If not, please explain why not and provide
evidence with your answer.
Yes, this would provide a further deterrent.
Question 23: Should government permit local authorities to use
EPC Open Data for some phases of PRS enforcement? Please provide
evidence with your answer.
Yes - LAs could tackle the very lowest performing dwellings in
their catchment area as well as comparing this information with
properties being marketed for rental. A joined-up approach of this
kind is vital to ensuring compliance is driven up.
It is imperative that the open data available is as up to date
and complete as possible. The current cycle for updating this data
is 3 months, and this would hinder such activity, especially if the
property has not had an EPC before, or the previous EPC has expired
and would force the LA to refer back to the EPC register. This
would slow the process down.
Stroma Certification strongly advise that the Open Data is
updated each month as a minimum, or ideally in real time. This may
be possible now that the EPC register is controlled by government
under a .gov website.
The dataset should also be expended to include all data points
used in the assessment, and not redacted as is currently the case.
When originally set up, there was concern that making all data
available would have GDPR implications and this should be reviewed
now that the data is wholly located on a government website.
Question 24: Should there be a requirement for post-improvement
EPCs (and for the cost to be included within the cost cap)?
Yes - so the new work is reflected on the register, especially
if timely open data is to become reality. There are many benefits
to the wider piece of having accurate, up to date and reliable data
on the EPC register and introducing a post improvement EPC is a key
part of making sure that landlords have improved properties to the
minimum standard, can claim compliance and to allow all
stakeholders and interested parties have the most up to date
information available. This is doubly important when we consider
that validity periods of EPC’s remain at 10 years.
If the cost is included within the cap it may lead to an
unintended consequence of EPC’s being charged at high value to
reduce the cost of installing measures. This could open to
floodgates to serious abuse.
Question 25: Should a valid EPC be in place at all times while a
property is let?
Yes, this is essential to ensure that all stakeholders and
interested parties have access to and are aware of the EPC.
Question 26: How can the most consistent set of recommendations
in the EPC be assured? Does using only the most recent SAP
methodology allow this? Improving the energy performance of
privately rented homes 20
Stroma Certification recommends the following.
1) Trigger points that require an EPC to be updated when
significant changes occur at the property that significantly impact
the energy performance. Examples include, envelope changes and
sizes, floor area changes (extensions) and HVAC changes
2) Where changes occur, particularly those that require building
control sign off (including self cert by a CPS installer), the
evidence of these changes (including specifications such as
insulation thickness, u-value calculations, windows/doors u-values,
heating design specifications etc), should be stored online, and
made accessible to the energy assessor. This way, key evidence is
not lost and assumptions within the methodology are not used. This
will improve accuracy, repeatability and thus produce correct and
consistent recommendations.
3) Reduce the validity period for EPCs to 3 years to ensure that
onsite inspections occur regularly.
4) Ensure that the reason for an EPC (the transaction or
trigger) is noted on the EPC and ensure these triggers are up to
date when they come into being. This will allow any viewer of the
EPC to understand the original purpose of the EPC.
The only way would be to have the EPC in its new guise (URL
based EPC) changed to a dynamic EPC which changes with each release
of Appendix T. Stroma do not believe this would be a good solution
and would be likely to cause many complaints as the data/output
that was ‘lodged’ at the time would be subject to change.
Question 27: Should listed buildings and those in a conservation
area be legally required to have an EPC?
Yes – by mandating that all properties require an EPC will
remove any confusion completely. Tenants of listed and protected
buildings deserve to have access to an EPC that informs them about
the property they live in, and any prospective tenant of a listed
building should understand the costs and performance of any
building they have an interest in.
There are many property improvements that can be made to listed
buildings – and many of these properties are the worst performing
from an energy and carbon perspective. It makes no sense that these
buildings are currently not required to have an EPC. The current
situation is confusing legally, and certification schemes have long
been required to interpret the law and provide guidance and
interpretation.
Without inclusion, listed and protected buildings risk being
left behind in terms of energy performance. We need to measure it,
in order to improve it.
Question 28: Should government seek primary powers to increase
the maximum fine level to £30,000 per property for each breach of
the PRS Regulations? If yes, should it be adjusted for inflation?
If not, what would be an alternative, appropriate maximum fine
level? Please provide evidence with your answer.
Stroma Certification have no issues with the maximum fine – we
see the benefits in putting in place a strong deterrent for
non–compliance. As with previous comments we feel the fine should
be adjusted in line with inflation.
This action however must be complimented by clear and timely
guidance for the industry along with incentives to assist landlords
to help them meet the standard.
Question 29: Should government introduce powers for tenants to
request that energy performance improvements are carried out where
a property is in breach? If yes, how could a redress mechanism be
devised?
Yes.
This was covered in the original MEES regulations, and there
should be a period prior to implementation where a tenant can
request improvements to the dwelling. An EPC mut be in place at
this point.
Ultimately, if the regulations work and compliance is enforced
then a property shouldn’t be rented out that doesn’t meet the
minimum standard.
Question 30: Should government introduce some form of local
authority disclosure or benchmarking where a property is in breach
of PRS Regulations?
Yes.
Question 31: Do you agree that the updated exemption regime
should come into force on 1 April 2025? If yes, do you agree that
the property compliance and exemptions database should be opened
six months prior to commencement of exemptions? If not, please
explain why.
Yes and Yes.
A smoother transition prior to April 2025 would enable those who
wished to register exemptions prevents a last-minute outcome.
See our previous comments on how an exemption lodged to the
register can be performed by competent people, with standardised
evidence which can be quality assured.
Question 32: Should the ‘new landlord’ temporary exemption be
simplified so that it applies to any person who has become a
landlord within the last six months? Please provide evidence with
your answer.
Yes
Not having an exemption could push prospective landlords away
and risk affecting supply of new rental properties entering the PRS
market. Six months is a reasonable timescale for the landlord to
review and improve the property, post purchase. This must be
disclosed in the marketing material so that prospective tenants are
aware that improvements will be needed in this time frame.
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