Ill z - National Security Archivensarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/docs/doc17.pdf · 2017. 8. 10. · 15 edg• ana eoneent of the o, s. ClA, cor~ect? 16 A. 17 Q. tu, YO\U' belief

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Ill ~BE VIII'rl!ll 5:1'a'l'ES l:tJS!I:IIIC% COUR'l'

•. • ·· .; 70R. !1'81: IIO~'rlf£n IIXS'l'lllt'l' OF· OKLIJIOMA . . . . . . . . . . . . : ....... , ... ~, ... ~ ......... 3

. -. ... :. -.. t 1l!IU.'I!D sTans or »tRIQ, }

) ) ) ) ) l l l

5 l'lo.llltUt,

6 ". ao, &7-CR-140-B

1 30SI tAPAIL ABELLO IILVA,

1 naeel!4a1\t,

10

11

12 JQBX 'J'RlAL

15 StFORE 'l'KE ROMORAILB 'l'lfOM~S Jl, &RE'l"l', 3u4ga,

16

17 APPElRARCISI

18 POll tile l'lalntith ·

u ·10 ___ ,. .-

Zl

· ... ··,:~;:;;.r .. ·, . -;.:~.:.:.~:..'!.\~ ..

·, ~

MR. TOit M. CRARAK Vftita4 Stateo AtLDrn~

~. DAVID!, O'N~ILl& AoaJatont Unltt4 &La~• 'ttor~ey

3600 Un1ta4 6tateo Covrthou.e ~ulza, Okl~h••• 14103

. . ··..t": •• ~~-

. .. ·~ .... ; . ie•b• C&sl&vta

25 ,. •~

1 II·

3 •oo Ie OnltiO't

'l'hat•o right.

11 Q,

11 Ilea and t ».on 1--" ep the o1rph.no in Coota Ilea with 4Je,

tt) 41411. t )10117 20 a. 'l'hat • 1 rloht. 21 Q, And yoa flow thot Oote ~-·· Cra. Coota ~lea wlth tho

23 '·

21 Q,

1 1. lt>at' 1 rl9M ••

:1 .a.. 110 one.

t g. Z't ftl year btllie.C, .aan•t. lt~ Mr . C:•noaaeo~ that you •

I wn o!oi~O 1:11ll 4o~ MiDtl"9 lft~O ilia GnU.e4 ltatel.lef n1.

IIR. IXloti&MIII %t 'I &l l:'e&l!y beeh 1&14. II lUll tiiU

!'II: eoal'tt EJteu• ae, lilt'. •1111a••. 11.ce lle'•

J7 tlHo i .. OM . !'ha o!ojiCtJ.Oft wU1 M O'la.....,1e4. I'll fU'alt bt .•

1t to ••t bl• what h• theuoht • ., . 20 j.oty ~a\ tll1o u 1t0t bei 11f ot tu-wd or aec~..S til•. !err t ile

21 tz'wtlt. of ·~~~ ... tta:r1 ~u :n.tllar 01>ly tOO' tl\11 odtnMe • 1 1tata

u ·

211 fa".: ....

1 .

TB• lMTZAr~B!tJ I t •• 1orry, Mr . •1l liaat, Go you

2 have th&t qua~tlon, or

3

I

5 back t or hl a7

•

10 MR. •ILLilMSr ret, 11r.

u 7HI CODtJo Pro~eed.

12 Q. (ly llr . MUH .. o) •"- you U n baclc in •>1\h tU HJpph

15 edg• ana eoneent of the o, s. ClA, cor~ect?

16 A.

17 Q. tu, YO\U' belief al that H .•• ·

u ... nat 1 1 r lr;ht. g.

211 llinll tl!at tM • .,._.., ot the coc oJ ne that lOU fl ew l>aclc fro•

22 contr• l .. d.r• l n NlcaraqQ&, correct?

23

2& t ... jury t o ln!4en t ...,4 tha t thh :h a ccmtJ.nunq a4:1o~itioo,

2! U..•t. 1t' l not t.o·r t-he truth ot th.e M.ttar •••er tecl ~ut only

1 •ha t th• w! tnu o l>e Uev ell •

2 ,-u ~OIIIt,., very wll. 11 J un4•ro't .. ~

---------,!

2 thea kclc tr

1

2

3

4

... Q.

g.

'\'ha t' 1 r l9ht,

aoul4 thtt ~e Fort L&uderd~le7

!lla t • e right.

Ci4 you ever le&ve fro• •irport• other tban • ort

5 Ll.u~erclal•?

6 •· that • • :right,

7 ~at other &lrportl ln llcriG• 4ld you lea~• fr~ to f ly

1J c!OIIIln wlth Q'Un• and. a.••un1Uon tor thl C·o-ntn.• ~o eotta l:l.Jc:a?

I MR. GIIAJIAMo Ol>1ec:tion to the tor• of tho ll~••tlon .

10 tt •••u••• fact• nat ln ev1~enca .

11 TAl COUI!'t x tt.ke it. tllat • • t e etm.ieally c:orrec t .

12 Iou 009ht to l ay a little pro4icate on that.

IJ (lly lfr. li!.llla••> JUb tbo that yo11 left Florid& In '"''

14 a.l.rplA._t\e loe.4ed. with Q'Ufll al\1111. ...a..po~J, J t. wa• yov )elle!,

15 Mr. Carraaco~ tbat the•• lt .. • were going to go to the

16 COfttr.•, correct?

17 .1. . that • • rloht.

11

2t

21

22

23

24

Q.

.1.. llo •

Q~ t)o 1'0\1 J.ave an~ pez•on•l tnowlill4qe a.• to wh.ar. thoa• v.qou o•ae .troa?

.1. . l~bln9 that'o tor •UTe.

Q.

25 of --.pon. that we're taltlnq al>out.

1 I , Wel.l , tl'l8y were all weepont -- they tre:"4 'lll.:r ... 4.Jt0f·• ~ not

4 g . ~fty~h!ng o~er tbon that th&t ~ou oon reeoll ?

6 Q. hr• tl\et"e roeketa?

I Q. It that' • riqt>t,

' "· I thiJ>k oo. -1D Q, P14 ~~ oeo ••chino QUno t hat yow thought were like 1-1' U or 11-101

12 I,

u Q.

14 uybody that ldentitie4 th .. oolv .. to you u a. Cootn lea.4er?

IS 1.

16 lOt. Nn.t.UIIBo l ' a oorry?

17

18 Q. (Jy Mr. IUllJou) Nhere?

ao Q, J.n4 who ...... you wlth?

21 a. Joro• Mnleo.

22 . Q.

2J • •

2f Q.

25 1.

llllero In 1Uuo1 .U

1 T~ IMTEIPRErSRo P-o-p-o C-h-a-.-o-r-r-o,

l A. I'• oo~ry. fhls ls vo1n9 to be uoe4 In anoth~ caoa. z

J wo~ldn't vant to oay or to provide naaao an~ «etallo.

4 MR. WILLilMS• I£ the court plaaoa, tbe queotlon

S aun48. 't'ha "ltn••• oHalng1~ !lao o.bjected ooltho11t the

~ govarnaent oaylng anything. I would aok that tl\e oo!tnaoo ba

T aa4e to &ftiNar.

8

9 & naae anll he gavt- e. n•••·

10 ll~, aiLLIIUIS o I aote« for oth.r naaoo, and Joe o&ld

11 ha dlCn't want to ano•ar.

12 KR. CllBAMo l can only ·- ay raeollaetlon or the

13 •tate of the rec~r4 va• he aake4 ,s. tar a na•e~ he tot ~

1' na .. J •n~ than ~he witne•• 41d aa:e 4 voluntarf •tateaen~.

15 % don't know what to o~jact to or What to do until the~e•o

16 •~other ~ootion.

17 fUR COURto ~hy don't yo re~tata the question,

18 llr. AUU&III, so we •:re all attune L to it.

19 o. (fill llr. llllliamo) Do l(011 re ·all the 1\&aa of ooaebod.y 20 eallec Octav1ano?

21 M~. ORlHlMo OQjaction b· •ed on relevance.

22

23 .l,

~· Q. 25 l.

~SE COUI~1 Overr11l•d. ·roc••~·

't'hat • • 1'19llt,

(By Mr. Wllllaao) Mhat J• O·tavl~no•o n .. e?

Ce•ar.

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l

2

3

4

'5

' 7

• , 10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

Zl

22

23

21

2!1

Til% Ift!IIPRI:rll'!, c-oe-•-•-r?

l . (Nitneo~ an4 int•~roter eonfer in Spanioh .)

1'111 X.ii'ERI'JIJ:'rE1h I ' " Jllqu1rinq . I' • not nn Mhat

l>eUove.S to be Contro loa

1 u:cu.IICl, re•aAberJ:n.Q t he &claoa!.tJ,. I'Ye o!ve:n )110"' .

2 (~h~· jury w~• o

1 j~par41•• that inv••tloatio~~ I 'l l tUtt&in t~• -otlon~ I ••Y

2 h•v• ailte!S •o••t.ltlllq thf: .,ltn .. • taSd. •Dil l 4ld'ft't lllnlll:ntan4

l tbat to be part o~ your o~ieetlon. Your ob,•otion ba•1~all~

6 .... it'• i.ttelevant, a nd. it ••~ ~·4Jll be, it u~ well k

5 lrr•lev•nt . l ut fro111 t.he •t•nQc.Lnt or teat:ing t he vltt11t"ta'•

6 credSb111~y, I waa o!v1no th• 4•ttn•• co~~••l •o•• l•tl1u4• 1n

7 U.•t re.p:r4. It it ~enuinel~ lJ\\ )lvel •ot~e O.ft'iJI01 nq 1nv~,,t19&

l t1.011 ano T . .a•••, tour Bonor I we:r• lJ dbelo1ed br both Mr. Mor•l•• lfln.( Mr . Blet1nn O.fore senator

1t t:e:r1"tty ' a e~.itt•• l 1onv t.l•• tM :k. • nd 1t vu a -t.t.c o f

15 VU)l1c raoor

I

. 1

' wlt~ ouppooed ClA Oforatl~o, rlght1

1

• ~ co~· ~n4 you're object~nQ? IJ MR. GIWWolt M3t objection war 403, Whlcl\ oayo 1 ha~

10 the ~j~41c• o~tv.lgho the rel.-ancr , an4 withOut -- J didn't i . II .. nt to oay In front oe tho jury any aore than I had to aDoet

: l

IS o: llll&t vo~l4 apge&r to nly go t o the ered1b1Uty of tMo .

11 QOing to bo that the defendant Mao operating tor the ClA o~

l8 a~hlng oC that nature, ro thlo cou14 only go to c~lbi!ity,

It f811: COOUJ XI t hio Oll9

l

2 •• tar &I the: Coa.rt 1• concern.f!td, 1 f we• re talld.nq about

5 4rog trafficking , or porhapo ln anoth.r area ot tratfl.ctlnv

e 1\ia proee=Uon or Ll>Y i .. u,.l.ty 1n reterenc:o to 1t.

' It ~•• ooaa rolevanea in t~at r.;..r4, but 1C the

10

11

12

predJcat e io laJ4 tbLt t here lo an ongoing l~veotiqatlon tha t

U 41racUll or 1n4Jr ecUy U .l'ect t of the all~•• or ii>llrPOZ'ted

l• ~ traftlckl.ng of thio 4ofen0.nt, I ~on•t revulre hla to

15 j12'0

1

C ,...._ to a t116CU1c . -

5

' 7

e Mtten. ,

Til C0111!To llloat .11 tbt rule .... ,.. Ulaift; al>out7

••· O'Mil~tao t ~lJe~e It'• 60& ar 50,.

MR. GIWilMo Attupt to ·•·-·~ on ~ollat.,..al

MR , O'MIILXAo Atteapt t•> Jotpeuh l>y eMt.-.IDiio

1

I

2.

J

Th-a.t I I + iqht.

It i t •t uo6eratan61ng t~ot that io on

t ong~lng l n .. oti gation. ono of ·~ initial reluctance io ~

5 CI1V41 evorythlng put JI&VO 15 >L that owon ot.-nt. Den

6 u• other n•••• l.n there. 'l'h·~ ' • one that•• a 1poee.l!lc

7

8

tarv.t o~ an 1nv••t1oat1on, w~1ch r•a t ol4 ~ow that eu.to•• 1•

i•tt going to have to obut it 4o~ by vlr~uo of tho (oc~ th•t

9 I liM to t\1%'11 tM.t \hln9 over tho othn 4a>y, which io Mt the

10 COurt's hult. I •g•w

1 to t~e a&n'• th~oh~o. Re hao alroo4~ teot111e4 ~·tho

1 thoUfht t hlo ..... • l>.lq en wupo no • o •111

MR . GIWIAII' JudQo, od th.out k11o11l11; llllat t ho fut\IN>

2 q\l•• t1oJ:~• of defen•• counael wwld be, I th1M tha t eover·a t he

l nature of the volr 41re , and tha 90vern•ent woul~ renew 1t1

4 objec:t:!on. Fur-ther-f. lt: 4et•,.•• eounael inczlll-r'el into :epec:1!:lc

S .. at1nQ• or n••e• cr th1n;• oe that nat~, I won' t know v~at

• he'• ~1nq ~ bo aotinp antil J hoar it, alld Crankly it ho

1 &llrt about a r~1e1c •eet1fll9 at. • •p•c1tlc pbc:a, a,y

8 ta•1llar1t~ w1th t he onqolng 111vo•t1;at1on would not ~• 1uch

' tbat J wou.l d n~•••arlly tuov Who vat •~ ~h•~ a.atinv, ana 2

10 nuld aok -

11 TKI t'OmtTr Sall, wa can • t. • nU

1 ('fh .. follO"'.Ing procu4.111Qt were ~•4 ~n the »N••>~••

2 u4 llartng of tho :jlll'y. )

l CIOSi-&JlKIM~%10K IConiiDue41

' MR. lllLLn!IS o !lith penl.odon of t~e Court?

5 'll'l COlJUr Mr. IIUUu1, !n an•lrer to your qll .. tiOII,

t tbe •~•w•r 11 it can be •g•cif1c 1e the wltn••• wlll 10 answer

7 abollt •ny 1uch activity not. 11'1volv1ng 9ov•rn•Mrt 11m.c:t1oa, Wt

8 at to qovenaont oanctl. em it o hould A'K i lr V_,II%U •

9 Q. (By llr . •HHaaa) Dl.4 you Kite any tdtt an pl..,•• troa 10

ll

12

l3

Plori4o loaded with weapono with ony pilot •~•r than •~•

IU.pplc?

1 . teJ , t~&tf, right .

Q. Bow •a.njl?

u •. On~ .

l!l 11. l!l.o n&u7

16 MI. OJI&ti&Mt T'O\D' SCWIOI', I vould aak t.bat t-he w1tn-••

17 - •r Ol>b c>b~eetlon 1o U that h a put ot an ongoinq

18 l nveotivotlon that tho wl~oo )e a4vioe4 that ha a&y aoke an

19 an~oane .. eqt to the Caurt,

10

U lrit"*"• 1t tho peno11 tllot h• il aoto4 about 1o a pert ot &D

22 onvoift9 .lnvootlvotion at tkio t.lae, he Qeed not r ov.al t hat

2l »&rUc"lar ...... . lf not pan ol a n cmooho iow .. tloaUoa,

2' th.r• hal ~•n no objectlo~ to ~1• rovaa11ng the ~ of th•

25 )l~ot im t~l• oth• r or t ingle ~rparted weapon• f light.

~-----------------------------------

I

I L 1'~ ltiUI$5 r 1 lf0\Jl4 rathu not reveal th• naee .

2 V.R. aiLLIAMS: tour Uo~or~ I don~ t W&n~ to be

' ldl. OIIBAMI 1 ...,1>14 furtller object ba .• ..t Oft

a t&llo1'71!1 abo~• .

' 10 flight thot ••'r~ talking 1b01>t?

11 NR , ~ILLilMSr Yet, air.

u Q. (J y ~ . •uuaao) C01>l

- - - -------·--

MJI, 'GRAHAM ' Ol>jec t ion t o t he c .. po\IM f~ of tile

I A.

9 Q. (By w~. ~illl .. o) te 1 un~orotand you ·thon , it wa• • lot

l l l. Of Cot.lr•e.

14 refur.Hl to u • oubaoohi.Jio g\ln? •.Ul 1f0U aot hh th&t?

Ui 0·

17 t-.lltlnQ about a ouboaelllno 9\0117

18 " · l ' a to l kin; about an ll•lS.

19 a. Io tlltt • von thot lo a oun thot can flre a lot of

21 "·

24 ~ . !bat•• eorreot.

25 0. lou pai4 ail llono ot 4ollaro to thooo people, d14n't

. .

1 you7

2

3

' 5

6

7

8

u

1l

fBI coua~. ovorrule4.

lo. !1\llt "e eorr1ct .

how aany • lll1on• of doll Lrl that you were p&rliclpltin~ 1~

payinv ewer ~o tllooe pecpl e ?

~HB WI~NBSS1 I belioVo $0,

g, ~ Mr. Wi l li& .. ) Do~• ~e know to? r ·a aorry, 4o•• he

1f know?

15 ~ .

M~ . WILLXAMS1 I t t~o Court »l ••re, I would tabeit J!

fBI OOOR~ r ~ll, thla witne11, ao t underltoo4 1t,

•

I I

• • •

1

2

3

• 5

6

7

• I

' 10

u

12

13

I t

15

16

17

It

I?

10

21

22

2l

2f

25

. ratereftc• to Your prlo4 que•tlon of ~•r. •u••~~till •uftt of

Q. Bov a•nt all11cno ot !ollar o dl( ~ou t ol l tha jury t hat

topo?

• · la~o1 aillion dollar a .

&. The Dnlted Btat•e , Pana•a, Costa Rica .

we •r. talk1n.g abollt - ... you're u .ltt.n; about '83, ''141, .,85,

A, ... ra t altlng about '$1 . ' 83 1• not 1nelude4 in that.

~. fe• , but l 414 nDt 4el1var ~nr acn ey 1n '86.

Q. For the year• in '81 aD4 '85, how aafty tl•e• dJ~ y~u

.S.Hvc aone y to PQpo an¢ Oct.avi&no?

l . I • •Y u ... . Q, 0>1114 you Qivo Ul a ll ,.ot leo" ? ll01:'e t han tiM11ty1

1. ~t·• rtgnt.

11. •or~ ttt• n 507

• '

1 A. a.twaer• lo a nd 40 ti•o•.

2 Q. Rby ~ere" you 9i~ino th.,• • illiofta of 4oll&r • to ~h•••

3 two aan, OetavLano an4 Popo?

e A. t w.• ordered ~o deliver lt to thea.

6 A • George Moral •• ~

ll tbat quootl~.

I& 1.

15 Q,

U .t. . Cocaine ,

. 18 1 . X aight t now ~Ia bvt aay~o not Yoder t~at . ....

21 1 . hll , Y"" •n aoklno •• Jl J ~rnq., t!l&t u... fou """t

)2 ~av~ • rea•on to llk ••·

n g.

2C " · ~11 , th• n .. e is not ra•lliar to •• ~

~ Q. 'fllank :fO'l· Do 'fov ~ or b th " '•• Dormlo Jteeord

~------------------------~----~

l tuiliu t o y·o~,~?

l l . • ot tut. one e lt...h1:r .

3 Q. Iober t. Ja•l••on?

• I . !Jot that one ·~t.her. 5 Q. C!l&n I.Aclo?

' I . llot t~>&t one •lt~er. 7 Q • !'nftt rab....,?

•• a. •ot t h•t on• elth•r·

' HR . .:ILLllMIII :tf Ule interpret er 10lll beor •lUI aa

12 Q.

l f l , fhat'> right.

15 Q, ~at i • tbat coapo~y7

17 Q, .... it a en front to yo\&r ltnowt.ll.qe?

18 & . I f.OII 't know wbother it l>elo~ to the CIA or not.

20 tlylnq do., tb.,.. wl.tb •eapono an4 br1ngino baelt

1 4rUg operation• 6eal1nq v>t~ tho Contra• an6 ~· veapono that

l you kl1ev~ ,to b4 involved with tho Cil?

l A, lt 6i4 In ~ op;nlon.

4 Q, ln4 wlult wu lto -- to yo>I.IZ' t11ow1edvo what .... itt

5 PIU'POoo?

6 M~. OIABlM, Object ao to rolevanco, lnqulrln9 l11to

7 e.-etuc 1notuc:u of ccm4'oct unrohteG t o tl\e 1ft41"t ""t

I uodor Rule 608,

' 211B COIIII'h Ovurul.o4 . uoe .. ll. 10 .l.

11 o.

13 l . 1't.Lt • • rtvt>t .

If Q. ~t you would brJn~ bac~ on tho a i rplanoo in exchanve

IS for ~·?

~ll, we di~ f ly back wlth cocolno but DOt with

11 container• tull ot cocaine.

18 o.

lO 1 .

21 Q.

22 u Pllnt.a lrtau 1t1 any way hvolved in druq tr&Uic:lcll>ll? '

21 1. . ~at'• co~et.

26 Q. In what way i l i t involved?

25 1. a. l have oa14, they oo•l 4 load coeolno lno14e t~•

l

. '

1 cont~l~~· Which were be1nt • hipped lo•ded wi th V$Qet abl•• and

2 rru1t lo tha .Vnlted &tat•• ·

3 g . Wh•re we:re thue l te11 l o&.-dt4? t·" ""'-•\ C01l1'11'\ry, C011ta

4 Jtloa7

5 J. . 'that ' • co nee: t •

6 Q, Panuta?

7 ... • ••

I Q, 3•ot Coat& Riea7

I &. U f•r •• I knOW-

lG g, llOW ••"ll flivl\tl do you .n co.li p&rticlpat.J nv in tl.~tiag

1:1. ••

l3 C:OC-&1M at th• .... t.lae.

lf Q. Bow •&ny tllqht• 414 you part icipate i n bri~glnp b~k

16 coea1M to tl\t 11111 to

4 1 . 1 know 1t ~· ~~· year ' ll~ ~at I don'~ reca~l th• t i ..

5 oe t~· year.

7 & • '!ll Ill cll.cln • t b& ve nosu.

8 Q. llao thero a natlonauw lor theu paoaporta?

10 g. Did they heva pJ.etur .. an4 ""'U)'thi.J>g on th .. ?

u a . 'lo, they 414 not 1> ...... pllotovrap~.

12 o . •• thi l • t a pa.rty wh.eu you were ; ive n "tl\e1e !U.c art.9UAn

13 J)OUporto?

l & A. th&t'a corr~t.

17 A. ~ay wore full w1th •t••P•, of entry a~d •xlt ata~1 rzoa .

14 • lot. of cU_.f _ferent eoul'ltr-let , bu.t they 414 !lot have • naae or

1~ a pleture on th ...

20 Q. l oll'"" oure o l tllat?

21 &.

2l Q, 1

V.., well. ln4 did they o .. bo provl.t. you with puoporta

lJ ln tht co1141Hcm t or Oeo>"9e MorU.eo oro! a..,rv- ,.~ .. ' ~tl.b1

t••· They .. re 4el1vere4 directly to tb ... 25 Q.

1 an4 your ~lto7

3 HR. MI~LIAMSa N'Y l &~roach th< w1tne111

• 7111: COIIII7o . Yeo , 5 c. ~ Mr. W1lllo .. ) I have placed bofore you w~t woo 6 fv.rn1olled to •• by tile Unit~ Stat•o Go,...., .. llt, 1lll&\ purporto 7 to be a ncorn otu .. .,t 9iven l>y you h M1uJ., P,lorld• em

I !lluo4alf, rnrllllrlt Stll, 1990, a~ I've t...,eo 1t to ~ou on

J pave sa. 1 will ook you, oir, if at tho bottoa of t~at P&fe

10 beoionil\9 at liM 20 1t you ,..... olltod t'hio queothn a n4 y01.1

11

U ;roffar t~at t'hlo woul~ h i •propor u .. oC t'hio. ~hero 11

15 not'hiDO" 1Dc01\o1ot.,t al>out it.

~~ CODITt I don't hav• • copy o! that u~ ~~•· May

2 0 ( S.nled to tl\a court . )

21 tSI COUI~1 overruled. troeee4 . Go ahead.

12 Q.

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25 l. nat • • right.

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