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Congress leader Rahul Gandhi
Full text of Rahul Gandhi's interviewIndia Today Online New
Delhi, January 27, 2014 | UPDATED 18:27 IST
For the firsttime, Congress vice
president and poll campaign chief
Rahul Gandhi opens up to an
elaborate sit down interview with a
TVchannel. For thefirst time after
his political debutin 2004, Rahul
Gandhi takes direct questions on
wide range of subjects. In the
biggestpolitical interview, Rahul
was asked all the questions that
India wanted answers from the
Gandhi scion. Is he scared of a political face off against Modi?
What is his view of
the 1984 Sikh riots? Was he a reluctant politician? And what are
his views on
multiple scams that UPA 2 was affected by.
The following are the transcripts of the 1 hour 20 minute long
interview with
Rahul Gandhi:
Part 1:
Headline points:
On being asked on why this interview has taken so long, Rahul
denies any
reluctance to communicate.
Rahul on not being PM candidate: Announcing a PM without MPs'
consent not
written in the Constitution.
On avoiding being named PM, Rahul criticises those who do, says
"Democracy isnot about destroying processes."
Rahul indirectly takes on BJP for naming PM candidate. Says
"Democracy is about
non-arbitrary decisions, it is not about destroying
processes"
Rahul on whether he's scared to take on Modi: First understand
me, and then
you'll get an answer about what I'm scared of.
Rahul on avoiding faceoff with Modi: I've seen my grandmother
and father die,
I'm not scared of anything.
Rahul on whether he fears losing to Modi: I'm not scared of
losing, I've lost those
I loved, "absolutely nothing I'm scared of."
Rahul on not fearing loss to Modi: Like Arjun from Mahabharat, I
see only one
thing: changing the system.
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Rahul on being asked about Modi, says he's "blind to everything
else" except
changing the system.
Part 1:
Q: Rahul, Thank you very much. It's great to have you on Frankly
Speaking show
today. It's been 10 years as an MP for you, you fought your
first election in 2004 &
this is your first TV interview.
A: It's not my first interview, but it's my first formal
interview of this type.
Q: Why has it taken so long?
A: I have done a little media interaction, prior to this. I have
done press
conferences & spoken to the media. But mainly bulk of my
focus has been on
internal party work and that's where I have been concentrating,
that is where most
of my energy was going.
Q: Or is that you have been reluctant to communicate more on one
to one basis?
A: Not at all, I have had many many press conferences that you
have seen. I don't
have that issue.
Q: It's not that you wanted to avoid touching on difficult or
tough issues.
A: I like difficult to tough issues, I like dealing with
them.
Q: Now that this is your first detailed & long interview in
10 years, we have a lot of
ground to cover. I have one request to you right at the start of
the interview, let's
be as specific as possible on the subjects we deal with today.
Do I have your
Agreement on that?
A: Yes, we will be specific but if I would like to sort of
explain things in a broader
fashion, I think that will okay with you.
Q: If I want to draw you back into specifics?
A: You can draw me back as much as you want.
Q: Rahul Gandhi the first point is this; you have just avoided
this whole question
about whether you are open to PM's post. It seems to me Rahul
that you are
avoiding a difficult contest.
A: See, if you look at the speech I gave at AICC a few days
back. The issue is
basically how the Prime Minister in this country is chosen. The
way the Prime
Minister is chosen in this country is through the MPs. Our
system chooses MPs &MPs elect Prime Minister. I said pretty
clearly in my speech in AICC, that if the
Congress party so chooses & Congress party wants me to do
anything for them, I
am happy to do that. It's respect for the process. In fact
announcing your PM prior
to an election, announcing your PM without asking the members of
Parliament, is
not actually written in the constitution.
Q: You did that in 2009?
A: No, we didn't.
Q: Of course you did?
A: What we did in 2009 was that we had an incumbent Prime
Minister. Prime
Minister won the election, he then went to Parliament. The
members of
Parliament decided that, that Prime Minister will continue, and
there was actually
a process where he was asked.
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Q: But you named your Prime Ministerial candidate?
A: We had an incumbent Prime Minister and there was no question
of our
changing him.
Q: See Rahul we can go up and down on this question. The fact of
the matter is
this, who else will they choose, and who else will Congress MPs
choose if not
Rahul Gandhi?
A: That is up to them right, but what one has to do and this is
central to what Ikeep saying is that democracy is about respect of
processes. Democracy is about
non-arbitrary decisions. Democracy is about spreading decisions;
it is not about
destroying processes. There is a process in the constitution and
that process says,
and it is clearly written in the constitution, and it says
members of parliament are
to be elected by the population and members of parliament are to
elect the Prime
Minister. All I am doing is respecting that process.
Q: Are you avoiding a direct face-off with Narendra Modi? Is
there a fear of loss
Rahul because this election is not looking good for the Congress
party from
overall estimates? And the growing belief is that if Rahul
Gandhi has not picked
up the challenge officially that means that there is a fear of
loss, he is avoiding adirect one on one battle with Narendra Modi,
you must answer that?
A: To understand that question you have to understand a little
bit about who
Rahul Gandhi is and what Rahul Gandhi's circumstances have been
and if you
delve into that you will get an answer to the question of what
Rahul Gandhi is
scared off and what he is not scared off. The real question is
what I am doing
sitting here, you are a journalist, when you were small you must
have said to
yourself I want to do something, you decided to become a
journalist at some
point, why did you do that?
Q: You are asking me the question.
A: Yes, I am asking you a question, it is a conversation.
Q: Because I like and enjoy being a journalist, it is a
professional challenge for me.
My question is you avoiding a direct face-off with Mr. Narendra
Modi?
A: I am going to answer the question but I just want to ask you,
when you were
young and thought of being a journalist what drove you?
Q: Once I decided to become a journalist, I can't be half a
journalist. Once you
have decided to get into politics and you are leading your party
effectively, you
can't be leading your party by half, so I'll throw the question,
with respect, back toyou, Narendra Modi is challenging you on a
daily basis?
A: You are not answering my question, but I will answer the
question and that will
give you some insight into how Rahul Gandhi thinks. For that I
will have to
expand a little bit about my growing up, how I grew up and the
circumstances in
which I grew up. What I saw when I was a child ,was my father,
who was a pilot,
and because of circumstances was thrown into the political
system and all I saw
when was small after my grandmother died was my father in
constant-constant
combat with the system in India and then I saw him die actually.
In my life I have
seen my grandmother die, I have seen my father die, I have seen
my grandmother
go to jail and I have actually been through a tremendous amount
of pain as a childwhen these things happen to you, what I had to
scared off I lost, there is
absolutely nothing I am scared off. I have an aim, I have a
clear aim in my mind
and the aim is that I do not like what I see in Indian politics,
it is something that is
inside my heart. It is like in our mythology when they talk
about Arjun, he only
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information. Things that used to be closed, things that were in
closed doors which
nobody knew about.
Q: I will come to that but you haven't answered my question.
Gujarat riots is the
question, your party has consistently wanted to put Mr. Narendra
Modi on the
back foot on the Gujarat riots, he says "the court has given me
clean chit" and I am
asking you today, is your party's argument about putting him on
the back foot on
Gujarat is flawed given the ways the courts have looked at
it.
A: The PM has stated his position on the Gujarat riots. The
Gujarat riots took
place, people died, Mr. Narendra Modi was in charge of Gujarat
at that point. I am
bringing you to a real ideological battle that is taking place
here. The real
ideological battle that is taking place here and the one we are
going to win and that
has always been one in this country is the battle of empowering
people in this
country. Of course there is your point of the Gujarat riots and
it is very important
that people who have taken part in this kind of thing are
brought to book. But the
real issue at hand here is empowering the women of this country,
giving them true
power. We talk about India being a superpower we can only be
half a superpower
if our women are not empowered. What I want to do is going
forward is basically
focus on three things. Focus on empowering our people, truly
empowering ourpeople, giving them democratic rights within the
political party. I want youngsters
who come in and really, really push democracy in the party. I
want to empower
them and I want to make India, together with everybody, taking
everybody
together I want to put India on the manufacturing map, I want to
make this the
centre of manufacturing in the world. I want to make this place
at least as much as
a manufacturing power as China.
Part 3:
Headline points:
Rahul answers a question on 1984 by praising Sikhs, says he
doesn't turn hisanger against a community.
Rahul's response: I do not take my anger on 2 people who did
something evil and
overlay it on millions.
For the first time, Rahul Gandhi admits the role of "some
Congressmen" involved
in 1984 riots.
After admitting "role of some Congressmen" in 1984, Rahul says
they have been
"punished for it."
Rahul draws distinction between Gujarat riots of 2002 and anti
Sikh riots of 1984.Rahul accuses Narendra Modi government further
on riots, says Modi govt was
involved in the riots.
Congress govt in 1984 tried to stop the riots. Modi government
in Gujarat was
abetting the riots.
In a dramatic charge against Modi, Rahul accuses him of
"actually abetting and
pushing the riots further."
Accusing Modi of pushing riots further, Rahul says "large number
of people" saw
Gujarat government actively involved.
Rahul says he has been told that "the Gujarat administration was
actively
attacking minorities."
Rahul gives Congress govt clean chit for 1984, while accusing
Modi of pushing
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riots in Gujarat further.
Part 3:
Q: You say that Narendra Modi was CM during the Gujarat riots
and the BJP was
in power. The BJP was as much in power in Gujarat during the
riots as much as
Akhilesh is in power in UP or for that matter the Congress party
was in power
when the 1984 anti-Sikh riots happened, now let me quote, you
spoke in one of
your speeches of the anger of your Grandmothers death, I think
it was campaign
trail in Rajasthan. You spoke about knowing the people who
killed her and you
spoke about anger and managing your own anger and quelling your
own anger
and drawing it into strength elsewhere. Now that speech of yours
became a
subject of controversy with Narendra Modi posing a series a
questions to you on
1984 and he said the following and I want to quote him and your
categorical and
specific response "he's crying for the assassination of his
Grandmother but has he
shed tears of those killed in the 1984 riots, I want to ask the
Shehzada and you
remember Mr. Gandhi he's constantly deriding you by calling you
a Shehzada,
whether your party kills Sikhs in anger when your Grandmother
died, so following
from this I have 2 questions, my first question; do you
acknowledge the role of
congressmen in the 1984 riots, B) will you apologise for the
riots as your partydemands an apology from Modi for the Gujarat
riots?
A: Two things, in 1977 when my Grandmother lost the election we
went and lived
....and the people who came with my Grandmother, those people
who stood by my
Grandmother were Sikhs. Pretty much everyone had deserted my
Grandmother
but the Sikhs were standing with my Grandmother. I think the
Sikhs are probably
one of the industrious people in this country. I admire them; we
have a PM who is
a Sikh. I don't have the same world view as my opposition. What
those two people
did to my Grandmother, was two individuals, I don't turn around
and take my
anger which existed then, frankly, it doesn't exist now and
brush it onto an entire
community, that's just not me.
Q: I am sure you don't, my question is do you acknowledge the
role of Congress
men in the 1984 riots because
A: I am coming to your question.
Q: I am sure you don't, my question is do you acknowledge the
role of Congress
men in the 1984 riots because there must be justice. Mr. Gandhi
there has to be
finality, the Gujarat riot cases have moved forward and many
people have got
justice, if I just compare that to the 1984 riots, you can look
at the status and case
history of what happened to Mr. Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler,
HKL Bhagat,
Dharam Das Shastri and the one story that you hear there is
these cases are
endless, they go on for the longest period of time. I am asking
you again, Mr.
Gandhi before you seek an apology from Modi would you apologise
for the 1984
riots, would that be something that you consider?
A: I do not take my anger which existed on 2 individuals who did
something evil
and wrong and overlay it on millions of people. I think that's
criminal. Did the
Sikh riots take place in Delhi? Absolutely. Were they completely
wrong?
Absolutely.
Q: Were Congressmen involved?
A: Did innocent people die? Absolutely.
Q: Were Congressmen involved?
A: Some Congress men were probably involved.
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Q: Has justice been delivered to them?
A: There is a legal process through which they have gone
through.
Q: You admit some Congressmen were probably involved.
A: Some congressmen have been punished for it.
Q: In that case, why don't you apologise for the 1984 riots? The
congressmen who
you are talking about are still fighting their cases and in 2009
if I am not mistakenJagdish Tytler, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. Was going to
get nominated as a congress
candidate, it was only following the media furore that his
nomination was taken
back. Mr. Gandhi I am asking you this question in all
seriousness do you feel that
Congressmen were involved and 2) Do you believe if you apologise
for the riots
there will be finality?
A: The fact of the matter is that innocent people died in 1984
and innocent people
dying is a horrible thing and should not happen. The difference
between Gujarat
and 1984 was that the Government of Gujarat was involved in the
riots
Q: How do you say that
A: I mean....
Q: The CM of Gujarat has been given a clean chit by the
courts.
A: The difference between the 84 riots and the riots in Gujarat
was that in 1984
the Government was trying to stop the riots. I remember, I was a
child then, I
remember the Government was doing everything it could to stop
the riots. In
Gujarat the opposite was the case. The Government in Gujarat was
actually
abetting and pushing the riots further. So there is a huge
difference between the
two things, saying that innocent people dying is absolutely
wrong.
Q: Explain that. Government of Gujarat was aiding and abetting
the riots is what
you just said, explain that?
A: I mean it's not me...it's the large number of people who were
there, large
number of people who saw actively the Government of Gujarat
being involved in
the riots.
Q: You will keep that line despite the CM getting a clean chit
form the courts?
A: I mean, people saw it. I am not the person who saw it, your
colleague saw it.
Your colleagues told me.
Q: They saw the riots?
A: The saw the administration actively attacking minorities.
Q: What are you saying? Can you explain?
A: I am saying that there was difference between the 1984 riots
and the riots in
Gujarat. The difference was that the Government in 1984 was
trying to stop the
riots, trying to stop the killing whereas the Government in
Gujarat was allowing
the riots to happen.
Q: If the government in Delhi and in the center was trying to
stop the riots in1984, then tell me, how is it possible that Sajjan
Kumar was named in Fir's on the
grounds of inciting violence in outer Delhi leading to the
murder of Sikhs. The
status of the case is known. How is Jagdish Tytler, accused of
inciting the mob in
Pulbangash leading to murder and rioting in the area. How is the
late HKL Bhagat
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accused of inciting violence. And you know that a plea in the
Delhi Court was
closed after his death. How did these Congress leaders do what
they did allegedly,
if the government was so strongly and proactively acting against
the riots?
A: There is a process. See there is a legal process. And that
process is on. Okay.
Q: There was an SIT finding. It was challenged by Zakia Jafri.
It went up there and
the courts upheld what the SIT found. Are you questioning the
wisdom of the
courts Mr. Gandhi?
A: Look. All I'm saying, all I'm saying is that there is a
difference between the 1984
riots and the Gujarat riots. The simple difference is that in
1984 the government
was not involved in the massacre of people. In Gujarat it was.
The question is why
do these kind of things take place. Why is it that the Gujarat
riots took place? The
Gujarat riots took place frankly because of the way our system
is structured,
because of the fact that people do not have a voice in the
system. And what I want
to do. And I have said it and I will say it again. What I want
to do is question the
fundamentals over here. What I want to do is ask a couple of
questions. I want to
ask why candidates that are chosen in every single party are
chosen by a tiny
number of people. I want to ask why women have to be scared to
go out on the
street. I want to ask these questions. These are fundamental
questions.
Part 4:
Headline points:
Simple difference was that in 1984 the government was not
involved in the
massacre. In Gujarat it was.
Rahul accuses Modi government once again of directly aiding and
abetting the
communal riots.
Asked if he will apologise for 1984, Rahul says: "I wasn't
involved in the riots at
all. It wasn't that I was part of it."
Rahul says that he agrees with bringing political parties under
RTI, if there is
unanimity.
Rahul on bringing political parties under the RTI: More openness
the better, bring
a law in parliament on it.
Rahul in response to putting Congress under RTI: Press does not
have RTI,
judiciary does not have RTI.
Rahul's final position: Happy to have a discussion on bringing
political partiesunder the RTI.
Rahul on charge of protecting Chavan: I'm sorry but Congress has
taken action on
every issue of corruption.
Rahul on charge of protecting Chavan: I made my position
absolutely clear in a
press conference.
Part 4:
Q: I appreciate that you believe in transparency. I'll move away
from Gujarat but I
must say that I have not found this comparison between 1984
riots and 2002 riots
that they are two different cases. I can't take this at face
value Mr. Gandhi. The
reason for this is because in both cases the government, the
accusation is that the
government could have done a little bit more. But at the same
time I want you to,
once more if you can substantiate. You stand by what you said,
that the Chief
Minister and the government of Gujarat played a role in abetting
the riots? You
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stand by what you said?
A: All I'm saying is there is a difference between the 1984
riots and the Gujarat
riots. The difference is that the government of the day in 1984
was not aiding and
abetting the riots. That is all I'm saying.
Q: So you don't need to apologise for the '84 riots. If someone
seeks an apology
from you, will you give it? Your Prime Minister has apologised
for the riots.
Expressed deep regret. Will you do the same?
A: First of all I wasn't involved in the riots at all. It wasn't
that I was part of it.
Q: On behalf of you party.
A: I think that riots, as all riots, were a horrible event.
Frankly I was not in
operation in the Congress party.
Q: Mr. Gandhi let's move on to the RTI. Which is the single
biggest legislation to
combat corruption. Which you said in your speech at the AICC
that was
something that you were speaking about. Now, I find it ironical
that a party which
has 90.38% of its funds from cash between 2008 and 2012. 89.11%
of its money
comes from unaccounted sources, unnamed sourced. Why would you
not say
charity begins at home? And let us put the Congress party and
its funds under the
scanner of the RTI. Why would you not bring the same freshness
of perspective in
this case as you did when you dealt with the issue of the
ordinance?
A: I think that political parties should be under RTI if
political parties feel, and it's
a law that has to be passed in parliament. If political parties
unanimously feel that
that should be the case then it should be the case.
Q: What was your view? What will be your view on it?
A: My position is that the more openness the better.
Q: So your own personal view is that your political parties
should be under RTI?
A: See the issue is this. Laws in this country are passed by
parliament. What one
needs to do is pass a law in parliament that brings RTI in the
political party. I have
a personal view on it but you have to take that view through
parliament. I have a
view also for example on the six bills that are sitting in
parliament.
Q: I'll come to that. But my question is on the RTI. I want your
view on it. You are
a very influential politician. You have demonstrated some of
your actions in the
past that what you say and do can influence the decisions in
government and in
parliament. So my question to you is very significant. You said,
in the AICC you
said we enacted this revolutionary law to hand you power knowing
fully well that
it would place our own government under severe scrutiny. I agree
with you. What
about placing your own party under scrutiny? Are you open to
that?
A: I am the first person who has been saying over the last five
years, talking about
transparency in the party. I have made the Youth Congress and
the NSUI fully
elected bodies. I have spoken about the six bills in parliament.
I have spoken
about the Lokpal Bill and I have pushed the Lokpal Bill. I was
involved in the RTI.
We worked together to bring the RTI. So as far as transparency
in the political
party is concerned I am absolutely for transparency. There are
questions about
the RTI that need to be discussed and thought through. The real
question is that
our system is based on different pillars. And the question is
which ones of these
pillars should have RTI. Because, if you only put RTI into one
pillar and you don't
have RTI in for example the judiciary and the press and in other
areas then you
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might create an imbalance. Am I for opening up? Am I for
bringing RTI into as
many places possible? Absolutely. Am I for creating an imbalance
and weakening
the legislative structures of this country. No I am not.
Q: How does putting political parties under the purview of the
Right to
Information Act, how does that actually weaken the legislative
process? It brings
in transparency.
A: It brings in transparency but it changes the balance of
power.
Q: How?
A: Because the judiciary does not come under RTI. The press does
not have RTI.
Other components of the system do not have RTI.
Q: The press does not rule the country.
A: No it doesn't. Okay. The Judiciary does not have RTI. So you
have to have a
complete thinking. So if you want to bring RTI. If you want to
deepen RTI, you
have to think about it in a composite manner. You cannot just
say, 'Okay let's put
RTI here, put RTI here'. You have to have a strategy to put RTI
and open the
system together. And as far as opening the system is
concerned.
Q: But you are willing to let a discussion happen on brining
political parties under
RTI?
A: Of course I am.
Q: You're not opposed to that.
A: No I am not opposed to any discussion, ever.
Q: On this specific subject.
A: On all subjects. One has to take care that one is not
creating imbalances in the
system. And that's something that one has to discuss.
Q: Mr. Gandhi do I sense that you are almost committing yourself
and then pulled
back.
A: No, no, no. I have said that I am happy to have a
discussion.
Q: You're happy to have a discussion?
A: Of course.
Q: On bringing political parties under RTI?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Mr. Gandhi.
A: But let me just go back and let me give you... Let me go
further than that. The
central question in all this is who chooses political candidates
and how? The
central issue in all this is what is the power of the Member of
Parliament, the
power of the MLA and the power of the Pradhan in political
system? If you look at
the legislative power of a Member of Parliament, you look at the
legislative power
of an MLA today and you look at the role he plays in Parliament
and the role he
plays in the assembly. He doesn't actually make laws. He presses
buttons. Go to a
state like Uttar Pradesh and you look at actually the law
making, the law making
done by the MLAs, it's extremely limited. You can't talk about
bringing people into
politics. You can't talk about opening up the system until you
start to empower
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these people.
Q: Was it part of the empowerment of people that Ashok Chavan
was protected in
the Adarsh Scam despite the fact that the judicial commission
actually said that he
was involved in a quid pro quo? A Chief Minister, an ex Chief
Minister forced to go
because of one of the biggest scams. Which was by the way Mr.
Rahul Gandhi
played out greatly on the channel. Is he being protected? The
CBI is not getting
permission to prosecute him. You can say all this Mr. Rahul
Gandhi about the
legislative framework to fight corruption. But my question to
you is morefundamental. You have not shown the political will to
use your tremendous
influence to ensure that Ashok Chavan faces justice. You said a
little bit and you
moved back. Why are you still protecting Ashok Chavan.
A: I'm sorry the Congress party wherever we have had issues of
corruption we
have taken action. On every front. We are the ones who brought
the RTI which is
the single biggest weapon against corruption. And we got it
ourselves. We are the
ones who delivered RTI to this country.
Q: Your Maharashtra cabinet rejected the judicial commission
report on Adarsh.
And after that the governor refused to give prosecution to go
against Ashok
Chavan. None of this was part of the empowerment of the people.
You said you're
not for it. After that in some kind of tardy, if I may say so,
partial acceptance of the
report. The bureaucrats are blamed and each and every politician
including Mr.
Ashok Chavan gets away. I want to ask you Mr. Rahul Gandhi. You
said you will
not compromise. You will not make small compromises. How big a
compromise
was it for you to continue to protect Mr. Ashok Chavan. Why are
you protecting
Ashok Chavan?
A: I made my position on Ashok Chavan absolutely clear. I made
it front of a press
conference. I made it absolutely clear exactly what I thought
about that issue. Let
me again go back to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is
bringing in youngsters
into the political system. Opening the doors.
Q: The Chief Minister did a sort of partial acceptance which
basically means
bureaucrats are faulted in the report. They are penalised.
Indicted politicians get
away. Mr. Rahul Gandhi I am asking you this because you've come
up on the
issue. Do you have the political conviction to push this
through. What will you say
to the people watching this interview today, who will say, 'You
know what, you
said it' but you're not taking responsibility. The man still
gets away scot-free. Why
should a bureaucrat be punished and a Congress politician be let
off?
A: What I will say is that in the Congress party anybody who
does any act of
corruption will be taken up and punished.
Q: What about Ashok Chavan?
A: Every single person.
Q: But he has got away.
A: What I will say is that there are six bills in parliament
that are sitting there bring
them in. Pass them.
Q: But your words are not matching your actions Mr. Rahul
Gandhi. You're saying
it but all the politicians they got away scot-free, including
not just Ashok Chavan.There are several NCP ministers. All of whom
tried to interfere and meddle in the
process. They used the name of Kargil Mr. Rahul Gandhi to give
themselves
private profit. If you say this and you have the conviction why
are you not
following it through?
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A: I have made it absolutely crystal clear right in front of the
press what I think
about this issue.
Q: But nothing happened.
A: What do you mean nothing happened?
Q: Ashok Chavan faces no action.
A: Absolutely not. What all I'm saying is that anybody,
regardless of who he is, ifthere is any corruption by any Congress
person we will take action.
Q: Would you like to see Ashok Chavan facing action?
A: We have punished our own minister. We have put the most
powerful bills in
the Parliament house. Please get those bills passed. That's what
I tell the
opposition in this country.
Part 5: Headline points:
Rahul on Virbhadra corruption charge: There is a legal process,
follow it and
conclude it.
Rahul: We took action on corrupt ministers. Lets talk about
system being corrupt,
not peripheral things.
Rahul says he knows that there is no case being followed against
Virbhadra Singh,
but says "that is not my job."
Rahul defends his silence on scams, says he had many
conversations on the
scams with the Prime Minister.
Rahul says he was reporting to the PM. Says he made his views on
scams
"abundantly clear to the PM."
Part 5:
Q: I am giving you two examples. One ex Chief Minister and one a
current Chief
Minister. Virbhadra Singh. My question to you is we have papers
which have
shown that the Chief Minister takes money from a company which
his
government does business with. And he takes money. Large amounts
of money
are put in. And then he says I just took the money as a personal
loan because I
wanted to do renovations in my Palace. My question is Mr. Rahul
Gandhi. And
this is really fundamental because you have taken a position on
corruption of late.
Do you think it appropriate of another Chief Minister of a state
to be deciding on
the fate of a company, that he is revealed to have close links
with? And by not
speaking on it, because you've not spoken on it, aren't you
missing on yet another
opportunity to address the issue of corruption with Virbhadra
Singh?
A: As far as any corruption done, there is a legal process. And
that legal process
should be followed and concluded. As far as my personal view is
concerned,
anybody who is corrupt should be brought to book.
Q: Was the legal process completed when A Raja was asked to
leave the cabinet?
A: We took action against the DMK ministers.
Q: Was the legal process completed when Mr. Kalmadi was asked to
leave as
Secretary of the Congress Parliamentary Committee?
A: We took action on the corrupt ministers. We have passed a
bill in parliament.
The Lokpal Bill. The most powerful thing. We got you RTI and we
got six bills
sitting in Parliament house. We have to change the way the
system works. We are
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always talking about peripheral things. We are never talking
about the core reason
this system is corrupt. The core reason the season is corrupt is
that there is too
much concentration of power in the system and people on the
peripheries do not
have power. The people on the streets do not have power. And
that the reason that
happens is that our political system, political parties are
shut. We need to open the
door of the political parties. We need to move, carry out more
legislation like RTI
and we need to change the system.
Q: Are you open to taking action on Ashok Chavan and Virbhadra
Singh? Haveyou seen the papers yourself? Will you examine them Mr.
Gandhi? Will you
examine it?
A: Anybody who is corrupt should be punished. I am not a judge.
So if there is a
legal process and there is a result of the legal process,
absolutely they should be
punished.
Q: There is no case being followed against Mr. Virbhadra
Singh.
A: Yes I know that but I am saying that it is not my job. My job
is when I see issues
of corruption, take action on it. That's what I do.
Q: Well Mr. Gandhi now you see. The other question is, should
you have spoken
up much much earlier? You know you didn't. Everyone wants to
know today why
you didn't speak up during 2G. Why didn't you speak up during
Coalgate? Why
didn't you speak up? I think it was June 2010 that our channel
broke the CWG
scam and railgate. You could have spoken up. And you can't take
the defence that
you were not very actively there. You have for some time been
effectively in-
charge of the 2014 re-election campaign.
A: My position was that I report to the Prime Minister. Whatever
I felt I had
conversations with the Prime Minister. Whatever I felt about the
issues I made it
abundantly clear to the Prime Minister. I was involved in the
legislation, RTIlegislation. And now I have helped pass the Lokpal
Bill. I bring you back. The real
issue here is participation of people in politics. It is
bringing youngsters into the
political system, it's opening out the political system. That's
where nobody wants
to talk. Everybody is perfectly happy with 500 people running
the entire system in
India. Nobody, none of you want to raise that issue. The
fundamental issue. How
do we chose candidates?
Q: Do you feel that you have undermined by remaining silent? I
want to ask you
this when the Pawan Bansal and Ashwini Kumar episode happened
for six days
the Govt batted back, everyone said this is unacceptable. Six
days the Parliament
was washed out, do you feel in retrospect that you could have
spoke out earlier,Mr. Gandhi please be frank with me on this.
A: What I feel is that this country needs to look at the
fundamental issues at hand,
the fundamental political issue at hand is that our Political
system is controlled by
too few people and we absolutely have to change the way our
political system is
structured, we have to change our Political parties, we have to
make them more
transparent, we have to change the processes that we use to
elect candidates, we
have to empower women in the political parties, that is where
the meat of the
issue but I don't hear that discussion, I don't hear the
discussion about how are
we actually choosing that candidate, that is never the
discussion.
Part 6: Headline points
Rahul: Their clout does not make them oblivious to scrutiny, but
we have to open
up the system.
Rahul on tying up with Lalu despite corruption conviction:
Alliance with an idea
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not an individual.
Rahul on tying up with Lalu despite corruption conviction: Our
alliance with a
party not an individual (Lalu).
Rahul: We are making alliances with parties on their views not
with individuals
(in context of corruption charges).
Rahul: Prices are an issue, I made my views clear during the
AICC session.
Rahul: Its not that I have just woken up on prices. I have been
working with the
PM on prices.
Rahul to Arnab: Prices are a reality. I still have faith in the
PM.
Part 6:
Q: So I am asking you how are you choosing Ashok Chavan? That is
a discussion I
am willing to have, how are you choosing Virbhadra Singh, they
are elected
representatives they hold clout, does their clout make them
oblivious to public
accountability and scrutiny?
A: Their clout doesn't make them oblivious, but the point here
is the system is the
system behind them that has no processes no systems and we just
assume that
thing is going to work. What we have to do is we have to open
that up. We have to
bring youngsters into that and that no-one is discussing.
Q: Mr. Gandhi a lot of people felt when you said that I will not
make
compromises; you have got a round of applause when you spoke up
on the
ordinance. There are many people have faulted you for your
technique, they say
you could have chosen a more discreet way. My question is will
you make
compromises, are you willing to make compromises for political
purposes,
alliances or convenience?
A: My long term view is that we need to take the Indian
political system to a
different place. We need to bring in youngsters and we need to
move away from
this concentration of power. Unfortunately the political system
today is at a
particular place and I can't simply ignore the fact that the
political system is at that
place, so certainly there are points at which you might have to
take a decision that
you are not a 100% happy with but the long term idea for me is
to transform the
system, to bring in youngsters and make sure they are
empowered.
Q: Lalu Prasad has been convicted on the 30th of September 2013
for the alleged
fraudulent withdrawal of crores of rupees from the Chaibasa
treasury in the 90s,the case you are completely aware of. My
question is will you make that
compromise despite that case to enter into a political
arrangement, because when
you spoke on the ordinance there was also the backdrop of that
case coming up,
will you make that compromise?
A: These decisions of the Congress party are made by senior
leaders.
Q: You are the boss.
A: Our alliance in Bihar is with a political party with an idea
not an individual, we
are making alliance, and it is not certain that we are going to
make an alliance, we
are in process of talking to people and our alliance is with an
idea, with a party, not
an individual.
Q: If I were to take that further and challenge you that there
is talk of a possible
alliance with the DMK and Lalu Prasad, and if you are accused by
your political
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opponents that he talks about not making compromises but he
agrees to enter
into convenient alliances with parties for short term gains, how
will you justify
yourself?
A: We are fighting an election, we are going to win that
election, there are our
alliance partners, there is our alliance partner in Maharashtra,
and there is our
alliance partner in Bihar and Jharkhand. We are making an
alliance with their
view not with an individual.
Q: Leader of the party is Lalu Prasad, hence you are making an
alliance with an
individual?
A: No, we are making an alliance with a political party.
Q: But these are not settled alliances yet but you are open to
them?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Gandhi the other question is about price rise and you got
a round of
applause when you spoke about the LPG cylinders, you told the
Prime Minister
quite charmingly - that Mr. PM please make things less difficult
for households.
But I am questioning your silence all these years, because in
this period from
2004-2013 the wholesale price index of food goes up by 157%,
vegetables by 350%
and Onions by 521%, you don't speak on that. When Raj Babbar
says you can get
food at 12 rupees a meal, you don't speak then , when Rashid
Masood says you
can get food at 5 rupees a meal you don't speak then, the
accusation there is and
the general feeling Mr. Rahul Gandhi is that you have really
woken up to the issue
after the 4-0 drubbing in the last state election, do you
concede that?
A: No, I think women are the backbone of this country and women
need to be
empowered and I felt that price rise is an issue cylinders were
a big issue, I went to
Kerala and I go a sense that women were concerned about that and
I made that
view clear to everybody in the AICC session.
Q: But you didn't intervene earlier?
A: I have been working with the PM on the Price rise issue, I
have been in
discussions with him and we have taken steps in our states,
where we have called
the Chief Ministers and we have taken steps where we have
actually reduced the
prices of vegetables in our states, so it is not that I just
woke up, it is that I have
been working on it systematically. But what I really feel that
we need to start
looking at empowering women, bringing them in and listening to
them.
Q: Did UPA 2 let you down on prices?
A: Prices are a reality.
Q: Did the Govt let you down, when I look back at your comments
I find a
comment each time, in 2009, 2010, 2011 you had lot of faith in
the PM...
A: I still have faith in the PM he is our leader.
Q: Does the Govt's track record on prices not make your faith in
the PM shake a
little?
A: We are working on prices, as I said we have spoken to our
Chief Ministers andwe have reduced prices in states where we are in
power.
Q: So you have not woken up to it only because of political
purposes?
A: No.
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Part 7: Headline points
Rahul's first response on AAP: There are things about how they
have reached out
to people, don't take that away from them.
Rahul: The Congress felt we should give the AAP a chance to
prove themselves
and so wanted to assist them.
Rahul flatly denies propping the AAP to limit the BJP. Says
"Congress cant do that
even if they wanted to."
Rahul Gandhi says that he will win the 2014 General Election.
Says he is
"reasonably confident about it."
In a dramatic statement, Rahul says he will take full
responsibility if the Congress
party does not win the 2014 election.
Responsibility is mine as Congress VP is the Congress loses this
election, says
Rahul.
Rahul says that if AAP goes against Sheila Dixit in the CWG
scam, Congress will
not take back support.
Rahul to critics doubting him: When we win, they say Im not
involved, When we
lose, I am the cause of it.
Rahul: Its ridiculous to even ask questions about our motives
behind supporting
the AAP.
Rahul: I didn't choose to be born in this family, I didn't sign
up and say this is
where Id like to be born.
Rahul: I can either walk away or improve something. I am
absolutely against
concept of dynasty.
Rahul admits political dynasties exist in the Congress because
the system is
closed.
Rahul on dynasty in politics: You can't say Abracadabra and open
the system by
waving a wand.
Rahul defends himself against the charge that having 15 seats
opened for direct
candidate selection is too little.
Rahul: If you want me to show you my degree I can show you my
degree.
Rahul on Subramanian Swamy's charge: I have given a sworn
affidavit saying that
I have these degrees.
Rahul on Swamy: He has been attacking my family for 40 years.
Let him take the
legal process and solve it.
Rahul on criticism: I'm being attacked because I am doing things
dangerous to the
system.
Rahul on criticism: Attack me all you want. Beat me to death. It
won't stop me.
Rahul on criticism: It doesn't matter. Keep throwing stones at
us.
Rahul on criticism: I'm not going to fight the superficial
battle, Im here to fight a
deep battle.
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Rahul: 'Losing the election is not the end of the world' when
questioned on recent
losses.
Rahul criticises AAP, says they don't have 'process or structure
which the
Congress has.
Asked whether he's open to a one on one debate with Modi, Rahul
says 'real issue
is doing the stuff in the party machine.'
Responding to Modi's '60 months for 60 years' comment, Rahul
asks Modi 'not tobrush aside what Cong has done all these
years.'
Rahul says he is battle ready and going to win.
Rahul on criticism: If I don't have a thick skin now, it'll get
thick.
Rahul: The stuff I want to do is not done in 5 minutes, it is
difficult work.
Rahul: I don't go to an election thinking, if we lose it's the
end of the world.'
Rahul's response: Unfairness makes my blood boil. That's at the
heart of my
politics.
Rahul: The "power is poison" remark shows I don't get driven by
the desire for
power.
Rahul: Power per se, the thirst for power, the quest for power
is not there in me.
Part 7:
Q: Mr. Gandhi what do you think of the Aam Admi Party and why
are your views
constantly shifting on the AAP, on the 8th of December after the
loss you quite
candidly spoke about traditional and non-traditional parties -
non-traditional
parties being those who have involved a lot of people. Suddenly
I find that now
seem to be over critical of the AAP, I presume you were talking
of them when you
said that there are people who can give haircuts to the Bald,
were you referring to
them when you said parties who over market themselves, which
parties were you
talking about?
A: The work that I have done in the Congress party, the work
that I have done in
the youth Congress and the work that I am going to do in the
future is about
bringing in youngsters into the party, strengthening processes,
strengthening
candidate selection process and strengthening policy processes.
I made a
comment about the AAP where I said that there is something that
we can learn
from them and what I felt that we could learn from them is that
they reached out
to people in a particular way that was good, there are things
that I don't think we
should take away from them. I think we have fundamental
strengths in the
Congress party and it is something that we have been working on
for 3-4 years
now and the real power of the Congress party is the depth of the
organization and
you can't makes changes by destroying things.
Q: But in a recent interview Mr. Chidambaram said he felt the
decision to give
support to the AAP was unnecessary and that the opinion was
divided on this
within the Congress. Having seen what you have seen in recent
days and the
chaos that followed in Delhi, do you agree with that view? Do
you feel in
retrospect that support to the AAP is something you shouldn't
have done? Please
be candid and frank with me on this.
A: I think that as far as I am concerned that the AAP won an
election in Delhi and
we thought that we would assist them
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Q: They got less seats than the BJP.
A: We thought we would assist them, because our party felt we
should give them a
chance to prove themselves and one can see what they are doing
and one can see
exactly how much they have proved themselves.
Q: What is your view on Arvind Kejriwal?
A: He is a leader of an opposition party like many others, what
we have to do as
the Congress party and again in front of us is an election, what
we have to do is 3things. One is we have to transform ourselves, we
have bring in youngsters, we
have to give them space. Two is we have to look at
manufacturing, we have already
set up the corridors North, South, East & West, how we can
take the energy of the
Indian people and build a manufacturing superhouse... That is
what I think the
real issues are.
Q: Are you using the AAP to split the Anti Congress vote bank,
to keep Mr. Modi
out of power
A: You are implying that we have brought the AAP...
Q: I am not implying, there is a theory that the Congress is
propping up the AAP
and keeping them on an extended leash so that they somehow
divide anti-
Congress vote bank. Had the AAP not been there the BJP would
have done better
and that experiment could be extended?
A: I think you underestimate the power of the Congress party, I
don't think the
Congress party could even do that if they wanted to. The
Congress party is an
extremely powerful system and all the Congress party needs to do
is bring in
younger fresher faces in the election which is what we are going
to do and we are
going to win the election.
Q: You will win the election?
A: Yeah, I will win the election
Q: You are confident about that?
A: Reasonably confident
Q: And if you don't win do you take full responsibility for it
?
A: If we don't win, I am the VP of the party of course I will
take responsibility for
it..
Q: If the AAP goes against Sheila Dikshit in the CWG scam, will
you continue to
support them?
A: I have already said that regardless of who the person is, if
there is an issue of
corruption the law should take its own course, that's my
position.
Q: Mr. Gandhi I now want to understand a little bit on your
personal side, my first
question is that you have faced a lot of criticism, how do you
handle criticism?
People say he has his heart in the right place but is he a vote
catcher, they pull out
all the recent state elections UP, Delhi, MP, Rajasthan and
Chhattisgarh, they say
he has not despite playing an active role achieved considerable
electoral success.
They are questioning your vote winning ability, what would you
say to them Mr.
Gandhi?
A: I would say when we win an election, when we won Uttarakhand,
Himachal
and when we won Karnataka , I am not involved, when we lose an
election I am
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the cause of it. But once again I think what the Congress Party
need to do is tap its
potential, what the Congress party needs to do is change the way
the its
organisation is structured and look at changing the way politics
in this country is
structured, that is where I think we should head. Questions
about whether we
have supported AAP or not supported AAP, frankly it is a
ridiculous notion. It is
ridiculous that we would construct the AAP.
Q: You supported them, you gave them a lease of life so that
they divide the Anti
Congress vote
A: That ascribes huge power to the Congress party, I think the
Congress party's
strength comes when we open up when we bring in new people, that
is historically
been the case and that is what I want to do.
Q: Mr. Gandhi why do you keep invoking your family name. I have
seen you refer,
with respect, to your father and your grandmother repeatedly.
Now Mr. Gandhi
some would say you should be careful of doing that because when
you invoke
your family and its achievement from the Congress, you can be
accused of touting
your family background for your own political career and the
second is you would
be re-entrenching yourself in the role of being a dynast at a
time when being a
dynast is not seen to be a good thing? Do you agree?
A: I don't actually keep invoking my family name, I have
mentioned my family
name once or twice and then people report that. The real issue
is that I didn't
choose to be born in this family, I didn't sign up and say that
I like to be born in
this family it happened, so the choice in front of me is pretty
simple I can either
turn around and say okay I will just walk away from this thing
and leave it alone or
I can say I can try and improve something. Pretty much every
single thing I have
done in my political career has been to bring in youngsters ,
has been to open up,
has been to democratise. I am absolutely against the concept of
Dynasty, anybody
who knows me knows that and understands that. But you are not
going to wish
away Dynasty in a closed system, you have to open the system.
Dynasty or
children of politicians becoming powerful happens in the BJP, it
happens in the
DMK, it happens in the SP, it happens in the Congress party, it
happens
everywhere.
Q: Then how are you different?
A: You have to go into why it is happening.
Q: It is happening because dynasties are allowed to proliferate,
it is because a
Scindia's son is a minister a Deora's son is a minister a
Pilot's son is a minister. A
PM's son is the Congress VP that is dynasty. Change is not
happening at the top,you want change at the bottom. There are
people out there who are saying that we
want change at the top.
A: The reason children of politicians keep getting repositioned
is because the
system is closed. You are not going to change that without
opening the system,
you are not going to open the system without having processes,
the system is not
going to open by waving a wand and saying Abracadabra let us
open the system. It
is going to take time, it is going to take effort and it is
going to take structure. That
is the work that I do. That is the work I spent a whole bunch of
my time doing that
is the revolutionary work I have done in the IYC and the NSUI
that is the work we
are doing when we talk of an open manifesto. That is the work we
are doing whenwe talk of 15 parliamentary seats being chosen.
Q: Only 15?
A: Absolutely, because one needs to set up the systems, if I was
to suddenly
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launch into 543 seats directly elected by our people the system
would explode.
What I need to do is I need to set up an idea, test the idea,
run the idea, if it makes
sense, if it works then move it to the rest of the party. The
step we have taken with
those 15 primaries, we get that much of a little piece in the
newspaper, but that is
probably the biggest political step taken in this country. It is
a huge-huge step and
I think those are the types of questions one needs to ask, one
doesn't ask them,
one asks questions that don't actually reach to the heart of the
issue. You are
talking about India, we have had a 1 hour conversation here, you
haven't asked
me 1 question about how we are going to build this country, how
we are going totake this country forward, you haven't asked me one
question on how we are
going to empower our people, you haven't asked me one question
on what we are
going to do for youngsters, you are not interested in that.
Q: That wrong Mr. Gandhi, if I wanted to know that I would hear
a Rahul Gandhi
speech, this is not a Rahul Gandhi speech this is a Rahul Gandhi
interview. Mr.
Gandhi I see that you have this knack of trying to throw the
question back at me, I
can only tell you Mr. Gandhi I am going to ask the questions. My
question is how
do you handle this. The other view is that you are a fragile
person, you get affected
by criticism. Subramanian Swamy has raised questions on your
degrees, he says
why does he claim he has an M.Phil from Cambridge; Cambridge has
no record ofhis thesis, you can't get an Phil without a thesis, he
says yes he went to Harvard
when Rajiv Gandhi was PM, someone gave 11 million dollars to
Harvard medical
school, donors quota, once you enter Harvard said to him we
don't think you
belong here, so he dropped out. He has questioned both your
degrees, I want you
today...
A: Were you in Cambridge?
Q: I was at Oxford .
A: But you spent some time at Cambridge?
Q: I was a visiting fellow at Cambridge for a while.
A: So where were you at Cambridge?
Q: At Sydney Sussex college.
A: So I was at Trinity in Cambridge, I spent a year there, I did
my M.Phil there.
Q: I want your response to Subramanian Swamy, how do you deal
with this?
A: You want me to show you my degree, I can show you my
degree
Q: Would you like to show him your degree?
A: He has probably seen my degree, I have given a sworn
affidavit saying I that I
have got these degrees, If I am lying on these affidavits let
him take the legal
process and solve it , what more do you want me to do.
Q: You challenge him.
A: Why should I challenge him?
Q: He's attacked you personally.
A: He's been attacking my family for 40 years. Why should I
challenge him?
Q: Does it affect you Mr. Gandhi when you are attacked at a
personal level and
how do you choose not to respond? How do you bury your head in
the sand and
say this is not happening? It's happening to you. You are being
criticized.
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A: I respond by understanding why I'm being attacked. I'm being
attacked because
I'm doing things that are dangerous to the system. I'm being
attacked because I'm
asking questions that are dangerous to the system. And I'm not
asking superficial
questions. I'm not asking questions over here (pointing at the
ceiling). I'm asking
questions over there (pointing to the ground). And everybody
understands that
this fellow here is not just a superficial chap who talks. This
fellow over here is
thinking deeply and is thinking long term. That's why I'm
attacked. I understand
that. And frankly, attack me all you want. Beat me to death.
It's not going to stop
me. I'm going to keep doing it. And I'm going to ask the
questions that arerelevant. And you know what, I have thousand
people in the Congress party, two
thousand people in the party who are working on this stuff.
They're not letting go.
And I'm proud of them, they're not letting go. It doesn't
matter. Keep throwing
stones at us. That's the point. The point is, people who are
attacked in this system,
the people who are actually attacked, are the ones fighting the
system. You
understand that? They're not the people who sit and ask, the
superficial
questions. They're the ones who're actually saying, let's do
something about this
system. They're the ones who are going deep into the system and
understanding
that this is the crux of it. And the crux of it, I've told you.
The crux of it is how we
choose candidates. The crux of it is how we make policies.
That's the crux of it.
The thing is, you don't like discussing it. You like discussing
stuff that really,
doesn't go to the core and I'm a serious politician. I'm not
somebody who's here to
get power, or make money or something. I'm somebody who's here,
who's seen
what the system does to people. I've seen, and I can give you
example after
example which is on my mind. But I'm not going to fight the
superficial battle. I
just am not. It's not interesting to me. I'm going to fight a
battle. I'm going to fight
a deep battle. I'm going to take the youngsters of this country
and line them up.
And I'm going to then take the system on. Don't forget that.
Q: You don't have a thick skin, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. Politicians
need to have a thick
skin.
A: If I don't have a thick skin right now, it'll get thick.
Q: You say you're a very serious politician. I assure you Mr.
Gandhi, I'm a very
serious journalist. Therefore when I interview Rahul Gandhi, his
first interview in
10 years, it's my responsibility to ask you specific questions.
I'm glad you're taking
them. My next question to you, and I have only two left. Mr.
Gandhi, how much
have you been affected by defeats and when we see, for example
the visuals of
Priyanka holding you after the U.P election loss. That picture,
almost in a
protective manner that Priyanka is holding you and you are
walking away. You tell
me what's happening in your mind out there. Do you feel
overwhelmed by loss, by
defeat, because you've had quite a few off late? How have you
dealt with it?
A: It all depends on what you're trying to do. I told you that
I'm here because I
want to help use the energy of this country. I want to make this
country powerful.
I want to project the ideas of this country. To do that, I think
there are basically 3
things one needs to do. One, is changing the way we do politics
here. Getting away
from the superficialities, getting away from the small issues
and moving deeper
into the issues right. Questioning the system, changing the
system. Things like
RTI, things like Lokpal, things like how we choose our
candidates. Things like
bringing youngsters into politics. Second is empowering the
women of this
country. Really bringing them into the system. Really pushing
them forward. And
third is using the energy of the youth of this country. Bringing
in the type of jobs
that they need. This stuff is not done in 5 minutes. This stuff
is frankly not done
in this type of discussions. This stuff is done through
concentrated thinking and
long term work. It's frankly difficult work, it's painful work.
If we're thinking
about that and thinking that's what we want to do, defeat just
makes you stronger,
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it makes you want to do more. I don't go into an election
thinking, if we lose it's
the end of the world. We lose some elections, we win some
elections. The real
thing is that it's a heart thing. It's a soul thing. Why are you
here? I asked you that
question, why am I sitting here? I'm sitting here because I feel
with all my heart
that we need to change the system here and not enough people are
actually asking
that question.
Q: Mr. Gandhi, my last question to you in the course of this
interaction is this.
Your father was forced into politics by circumstances. In your
case as well, whenyou said power is poison and spoke about how your
mother Sonia Gandhi came
and she cried. If I put that together with some of what you've
said, it might
reinforce the image of a reluctant prince. It's not my phrase,
I'm sure you've heard
this phrase used against you or to describe you a number of
times. Therefore Mr.
Gandhi, the last question is this. Had you not been a Gandhi,
would you have
been in politics at all?
A: If you look at my spirit, regardless of what I do, if I'd
been born in India,
regardless of what I do, I don't like unfairness. It just makes
my blood boil. I don't
like it. And in whatever I did, if I saw unfairness, I would
stand up Against it.
That's the heart of my politics.
Q: If you were not a Gandhi, would you be in politics? Some say
this is a
circumstance thrust on you Mr. Gandhi. You've been thrust into
this situation.
You're trying to justify to yourself that you need to do it.
Heart of heart, are you a
politician? Had you not been a Gandhi, would you be in
politics?
A: Maybe you find me strange because...
Q: No, I don't find you strange.
A: You sort of implied that, but maybe I look like an anomaly in
the environment
that I'm in. Maybe that's what you're saying and frankly in a
lot of ways, I am ananomaly in the environment that I'm in. The
power is poison remark, and I tell
this to my sister, I tell it to my mother and my mother tells it
to me. I don't get
driven by the desire for power. I'm just not driven by it. For
me power is an
instrument that can be used for certain things. But for me, it's
not interesting to
own it, to capture it or to hold it. Maybe its because of my
family circumstances
and what happened to my family. Power per se, the quest for
power, the thirst for
power is not there is me. What is there in me, is a desire, a
strong desire to reduce
the pain that people feel. To reduce the pain that people feel
as a result of the
system that is predatory. As a result of the system that need
not be there. As a
result of system that can change if we just start to ask the
deeper question. And we
stop asking the superficial questions. Again, and maybe the
seventh time I want to
repeat it to you. What are those deeper questions? The deeper
question is, why is
power so concentrated in this country? Why is it that the Chief
Minister of a state
has the access to any decision in the entire state? Why is it
that candidates are
chosen in closed rooms? Why is it that people do not have access
to the
candidates' decision? Why is it that our policies are made
behind closed doors by 5
or 6 people? Why is it that the perspective of one minister is
completely different
from the one who is following him? What that's telling me is
that we're not exactly
taking the voice of the people into policy. We're not actually
taking the voice of the
people into the political system. You said about the Aam Aadmi
Party and you
said, 'you criticised them and you praised them'. I liked what I
saw as far as therepresentation, bringing in people, I thought that
was an interesting concept.
We've done that kind of stuff in the Youth Congress. That was
interesting to me.
Q: Isn't bringing in people when you disregard the legal process
and sit on a
protest outside Rail Bhavan and then you also force your
decision and your
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minister is always right. You avoided my question on the Aam
Aadmi Party and
I'm glad you've come to it. Tell me Mr. Rahul Gandhi, were you
angry with Sushil
Kumar Shinde giving a face-saver to Arvind Kejriwal? It was
reported. I didn't
mean to go back to it, you brought it back. The accusation is
that you're still doing
deals with the Aam Aadmi Party?
A: What I liked about what I saw in the Aam Aadmi Party was
people coming into
their system. I liked that. But what's different between us
& them is that we have
structure. We develop processes. That I didn't see much of.
Q: Were you upset with Mr. Sushil Kumar Shinde for giving them a
way out
during the recent Dharna? Do you fell they should've been
offered a face-saver?
A: You're going back.
Q: Yes, to specifics.
A: It's not specifics. It's frankly superficialities.
Q: How is it superficial?
A: It's completely superficial.
Q: This is the most relevant question.
A: No it's not. Whether Mr. Shinde should've apologised, whether
he should've
done this or done that is, it's a fact and it happened. But the
real core issues in this
election are, 1)Are we going to head towards a democracy,
towards deepening our
democracy and towards opening up the system or are we going to
head towards
concentration of power? 2) Are we going to head towards
empowerment of
women? Are we going to be a half strong nation? Be a half proud
nation? Or are
we going to actually empower women? Those are the questions. And
you know, if
you listen to the debate that's going on, about the elections,
that's not the debate.There's nothing in the debate about how we're
going to move forward on the RTI
paradigm. How we're going to move forward on the corruption
paradigm. There's
nothing in the debate about funding of political parties.
There's nothing in the
debate about how we're going to choose political candidates.
There's nothing in
the debate about how policies must be made. These are the
fundamental things.
These are the things that actually make an impact.
Q: You're you're avoiding a debate. Will you have a debate with
Narendra Modi if
he agrees to a debate on any of these issues? My question is
direct. If Narendra
Modi says I'm willing to debate these issues...
A: I'm debating these issues by building structures in the
Congress party that'sgoing to transform it.
Q: Why shouldn't there be a debate between the key political
party candidates on
all sides? Let them talk. Let them have a conversation
A: You're more than welcome. You have to start that debate. As
far as I'm
concerned, the debate is taking place.
Q: I'm ready to start the debate. Are you ready for it? Then I
can go and ask Mr.
Narendra Modi if he's ready for it
A: You start the debate. But the real issue is doing this stuff.
The real issue is
doing this stuff in the party machine. The only people who are
doing that, is us.
And frankly, we can stick for it. We've just said that 15
constituencies in this
country in the Congress party are going to be chosen by
primaries. No one said a
word about it.
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Q: Of course, it's mentioned everywhere. It hasn't impressed too
many people.
A: But the discussion hasn't gone there. So all I'm saying is,
as youngsters and as
serious politicians, one has to ask the fundamental questions.
The fundamental
question this election is, are we going to open up the system?
Are we going to
close the system? What is going to be the role of women going
forward? How are
we going to get jobs for youngsters in this country? You asked
me a whole bunch
of questions. You didn't ask me once on how we're going to get
jobs for youngsters
in this country. You didn't ask me once about what we're going
to do for thewomen for this country. And I'm going to tell you what
I think.
Q: But Mr. Rahul Gandhi, if I was to do that, I would listen to
a Rahul Gandhi
speech as I said. This is an interview. I'm getting an
opportunity to ask you specific
questions. You called my specific questions superficial. I, with
respect disagree. I
feel my questions are specific and you need to answer the
specific questions as
specifically as possible.
A: You're more than welcome to ask these questions. But let's
also move the
debate to a place where we're actually reaching towards
fundamentals. What
should be the role of women in this country? How can we enhance
their role?
How do we bring jobs to millions of people. For example, every
single person who
comes to me from abroad, Japan, France, Germany, America and
tell me 'Listen,
we need an alternative to Chinese manufacture'. We're very happy
with what the
Chinese give us, but we need another port. There's global energy
saying we want
to move manufacturing to India. The Congress party, the UPA Govt
have built the
corridors, we've built the North-South, East-West corridor. We
built 3 times the
roads the NDA built. Why are we not having a discussion on those
topics?
Q: I asked you that question during the course of the interview.
Did UPA Govt let
you down? Because Mr. Rahul Gandhi, when foreign investors want
to invest in
India, they want a clean investing environment. They don't want
crony capitalism.
They do not need scams. They do not need ministers who behave
like Govts exist
on their rent. They do not need the A Rajas and the Aircel Maxis
scams. The
climate Mr. Rahul Gandhi has become vitiated with corruption.
And therefore, the
answer to that is and I really want you to address this. If you
had spoken out
earlier, and lets bring this interview to a finality. If you had
spoken out on these
issues earlier, perhaps today we would not be in a situation
where India is not the
preferred investment destination. You get my point?
A: Actually, the RTI right, has basically changed the game in
India. What it has
done, is that it has basically opened up the structures. And
what used to be
hidden, can no longer be hidden. That's the bottom line. The
bottom line is large
number of corruption issues that were hidden, that nobody would
have found out
about, came out because of the RTI. We did that. Now please go
to our Opposition
states, please go to their states and ask them if they have RTI
Commissioners. The
issue here is very simple. The issue is do you want an open
system? Do you want a
system where these things are out in the open? Or do you want a
closed system
where these things are hidden?
Q: I think we should have a debate Mr. Modi
A: The debate is taking place right now
Q: The debate has to take place between individuals. My final
question, Mr.Gandhi. Will you be open to a debate between key
candidates or representatives of
the major parties? Will you participate in such a debate if
there were to be one?
A: There is a national debate taking place right now. The
national debate taking
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place right now is the following. There is the Congress Party
that believes in
openness, that believes in RTI, that believes in Panchayati Raj,
that believes in
giving people power. And there is our Opposition that believes
in concentrated
power. That's the debate that's taking place. That's what the
election is all about.
We fundamentally believe and the Congress Party has always
believed that this
country has to be ruled by its people.
Q: Can you take back this election or have you lost this
election before its begun?
Most of the surveys are saying Congress party will be reduced to
its lowest evertally. What would you say to that, Mr. Rahul
Gandhi?
A: This country has always been run & successfully when
large numbers of people
were