exhibit 22 - Madoff Trustee

EXHIBIT 22

10-05421-cgm Doc 239-22 Filed 02/03/22 Entered 02/03/22 20:42:08 Ex. 22 Pg 1 of 101

Picard v. Avellino Frank Avellino 11/21/2019

877.404.2193BENDISH REPORTING

Page 261

UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

SECURITIES INVESTOR PROTECTIONCORPORATION,

Plaintiff,

vs. Adv. Pro. No. 08-01789 (SMB)

BERNARD L. MADOFF INVESTMENT SIPA LiquidationSECURITIES, LLC, (Substantively Consolidated) Defendant.______________________________/In re:

BERNARD L. MADOFF,

Debtor.______________________________/IRVING H. PICARD, Trustee for theSubstantively Consolidated SIPALiquidation of Bernard L. MadoffInvestment Securities LLC andBernard L. Madoff, Adv. Pro. No. 10-05421 (SMB)

Plaintiff,v.

FRANK J. AVELLINO, et al.,______________________________/

Volume 2 DEPOSITION OF FRANK JOSEPH AVELLINO {Videotaped}

November 21, 2019 9:16 a.m. - 10:59 a.m. 249 Royal Palm Way Palm Beach, Florida 33480

Stenographically Reported By: RICHARD GREENSPAN, CM, FAPR U.S. Legal Support Job No. 2028166




Page 262

1 APPEARANCES

2 On Behalf of the Trustee Irving H. Picard, etc.

3 BAKER & HOSTETLER, LLP

4 45 Rockefeller Plaza

5 New York, New York 10111

6 (212) 589-4200

7 BY: KATHRYN M. ZUNNO, ESQ.

8 [email protected]

9 CHRISTOPHER B. GALLAGHER, ESQ.

10 [email protected]

11 REGINA L. GRIFFIN, ESQ.


13

14 On Behalf of the Defendants:

15 HAILE SHAW & PFAFFENBERGER

16 249 Royal Palm Way

17 Suite 301A

18 Palm Beach, Florida 33480

19 (561) 627-8100

20 BY: GARY WOODFIELD, ESQ.


22

23 Also Present:

24 Nancy Avellino

25 Todd Roller, Videographer




Page 263

1 - - -

2 INDEX

3 - - -

4

5 WITNESS: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

6

7 FRANK JOSEPH AVELLINO

8

9 By Kathryn Zunno 264

10

11

12 EXHIBITS: DESCRIPTION: IDENT:

13 Trustee Exhibit 47 Statement 269

14 Trustee Exhibit 48 Responses 282

15 Trustee Exhibit 49 Statement 289

16 Trustee Exhibit 50 Letter 292


18 Trustee Exhibit 52 Document 308


20 Trustee Exhibit 54 Will 316

21

22

23

24

25




Page 264

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 - - -

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video

4 record. The time and date is November 21, 2019,

5 9:16 a.m.

6 Thereupon,

7 FRANK JOSEPH AVELLINO,

8 having been previously duly sworn, resumed,

9 continued to be examined and testified as

10 follows:

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

12 BY MS. ZUNNO:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Avellino.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I just want to jump into one thing from

16 yesterday relating to Mr. Glantz, Mr. Mendelow and

17 Mr. Levey.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I think you had said that you all shared

20 offices I think you said many a times or many a time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you just tell me a little bit more about

23 that? I'm just trying to get an understanding of

24 maybe the different offices you shared and the

25 timeframe.




Page 265

1 A. We rented, we rented offices that part of it

2 was for Glantz and Levey and part of it was for us,

3 me, later Bienes and company.

4 Q. Did you share another office as well or did

5 this happen just one time or more than once?

6 A. No, we shared an office in one address and

7 then we moved to another address together. That's

8 what we shared.

9 Q. And was this during the time of Avellino &

10 Bienes or earlier?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. I think you said yesterday that Glantz and

13 possibly Levey were there with Mr. Alpern before you

14 got there; is that accurate?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And so do you know of the relationship

17 between Mr. Glantz and Mr. Levey and Mr. Alpern, how

18 they came to know each other?

19 A. Not that I recall. I think they just had

20 separate offices, separate practices.

21 Q. Okay. So they had separate accounting

22 practices?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But they shared an office?

25 A. Yes.




Page 266

1 Q. And then when you started to work for Alpern

2 & Avellino, Mr. Glantz and Mr. Levey were sharing the

3 office space at that time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know anything more about the personal

6 relationship, if any, between Mr. Alpern and

7 Mr. Glantz and Mr. Levey?

8 A. Not that I know of.

9 Q. Did you socialize with Mr. Glantz, Mr. Levey

10 or Mr. Mendelow?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you consider them friends?

13 A. They weren't enemies.

14 Q. Okay. And just to make sure I understood

15 this from yesterday, so you understood Mr. Glantz,

16 Mr. Levey and Mr. Mendelow to have investments with

17 BLMIS, right?

18 A. To my memory, yes.

19 Q. And at any time did any of those three

20 people, Mr. Glantz, Mr. Levey, Mr. Mendelow, provide

21 A & B with funds to invest into BLMIS?

22 A. I can't recall.

23 Q. You don't remember, okay. Okay. Let me go

24 back for a second to those -- oh, I think you

25 mentioned Telfran?




Page 267

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what's Telfran again?

3 A. Telfran was Glantz and Levey and Steve

4 Mendelow.

5 Q. So it was an entity that the three of them

6 controlled, or how would you describe it?

7 A. I'm not too sure how they did it, but it was

8 them.

9 Q. And Telfran had a BLMIS account to the best

10 of your knowledge?

11 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

12 Q. Or they had investments in BLMIS somehow?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there any other entities associated

15 with those three individuals that you are aware of?

16 A. Not that I recall.

17 Q. And did those three individuals have

18 personal investments with BLMIS as well?


20 Q. And then just going back real quick to those

21 Portfolio Management Reports that we looked at

22 yesterday -- actually, you know what? We will go

23 back to that later. I didn't pull it. Did I pull

24 them out? I did. Okay. We had previously marked

25 them Trustee Exhibit 32 and 33. I'm just going to




Page 268

1 show them to you again. You remember that from

2 yesterday, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just to confirm from yesterday, you said you

5 got these annually at the end of the year, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then they would tell you the rate of

8 return received in that given year, so, you know, the

9 exhibits in front of you I think -- I'm sorry, just

10 let me take a look. Trustee Exhibit 32 has a

11 Portfolio Management Report from December 31, '93 and

12 at the bottom it says, "Annualized return for the

13 current year."

14 Is it your understanding that that meant the

15 annualized return for the year 1993?

16 A. I recall that that's what it may have been.

17 Q. Okay. Okay. And do you ever remember

18 receiving a report like that that had a line for

19 expected rates of return?


21 Q. So a line that indicated what BLMIS' returns

22 were expected to be in the future?

23 A. Not at all.

24 Q. I'm just going to show you a document. We

25 are going to mark it Trustee Exhibit 47. I just want




Page 269

1 to show you one to see if it looks familiar to you.

2 This is Trustee Exhibit 47.

3 (Trustee Exhibit 47 was marked for

4 identification.)

5 Q. Mr. Avellino, do you recognize any

6 information on this page? And this is a document

7 marked MF00092762, Bates numbered.

8 A. I don't recognize it, no.

9 Q. F&M Associates and F&M Associates Special

10 and F&M Associates Special Number 2. Do you

11 recognize those as accounts that you were associated

12 with in any way?

13 A. I believe they were accounts.

14 Q. That you were associated with?

15 A. I am assuming, yes.

16 Q. And if I could just direct you to sort of

17 like the first one there for F&M Associates, if you

18 go down six lines, there is a line there that says,

19 "Expected rate of return 30 percent." Do you see

20 that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you ever remember receiving any

23 information like that from BLMIS?


25 Q. All right, you can put that aside.




Page 270

1 We are going to go back to Trustee Exhibit

2 26 from yesterday. I'm going to turn to the page,

3 this is Trustee Exhibit 26. These are the Defendants

4 Responses to Requests for Admission that we talked

5 about a little yesterday.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm going to go to number 50 and I'm just

8 going to read the request and then read the response,

9 and I just want to talk to you about it.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. So number 50 reads, "Admit that after the

12 1992 SEC action, defendants received remuneration

13 from BLMIS based on the amount of cash the former A &

14 B clients invested directly with BLMIS."

15 And then the answer or the response says,

16 "Admit that adjustments by way of additional trades

17 were made to gains, losses and dividends on several

18 of the defendants' accounts as consideration for the

19 A & B clients who invested directly with BLMIS."

20 So my question is can you explain that

21 response to me in your own words?

22 A. Well, at that time going back, whatever the

23 date was the response was correct, I did receive

24 remuneration from the BLMIS accounts.

25 Q. The rumination for what exactly?




Page 271

1 A. The accounts that were sent to BLM.

2 Q. After the 1992 investigation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So just so it's clear for the record, you

5 did receive remuneration related to the accounts that

6 the former A & B clients had opened with BLMIS after

7 the 1992 investigation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Let's just break that down a little bit.

10 How did you receive remuneration?

11 A. Through transactions that Madoff created in

12 my personal accounts, our personal accounts.

13 Q. What personal accounts?

14 A. Whatever I may have had that I can't recall.

15 Q. What period of time did you receive this

16 remuneration?

17 A. I can't recall then, the period of time.

18 Q. Is it safe to say it was after A & B closed,

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How often did you receive the remuneration?

22 A. The regular performance times that were

23 there previously: Quarterly, yearly.

24 Q. Okay. So at various points throughout the

25 year?




Page 272

1 A. Yes. It's the same reporting material.

2 Q. So the same reporting. I'm just trying to

3 understand. So did you receive the remuneration

4 annually or quarterly or both?

5 A. In the transactions, I can't recall how it

6 was done.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. In the transactions, quarterly or annually,

9 I can't recall.

10 Q. How did BLMIS or Madoff provide this

11 remuneration through the transaction?

12 A. We created debits, credits, the same

13 performance he had before, buying and selling

14 securities.

15 Q. Through buying and selling securities. And

16 do you have any idea of the amount of the

17 remuneration?

18 A. Not offhand, no.

19 Q. Or what it was based on?

20 A. It was based on the moneys that were

21 directed to him from the A & B accounts.

22 Q. So it was based upon the amounts of money

23 that the former A & B clients reinvested with Bernie?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At some point after the 1992 investigation?




Page 273

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And so the response in the request

3 for admissions refers to adjustments. It says, "The

4 adjustments by way of additional trades were made."

5 A. Which one was that?

6 Q. The one we were looking at before, so number

7 50.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What does adjustments being made, what does

10 that mean to you?

11 A. I don't know what it means.

12 Q. Okay. So did you ever use that word to

13 refer to the remuneration?


15 Q. And this talks about adjustments by way of

16 additional trades were made to the gains, losses and

17 dividends. With respect to the gains, losses and

18 dividends, are those the types of -- or I guess how

19 would you describe those, trades made to the gains,

20 losses and dividends?

21 A. As in the past, the same way it always was,

22 buying and selling securities and dividends received.

23 Q. Would you consider the remuneration a

24 commission for the money that the former A & B

25 clients reinvested in BLMIS?




Page 274

1 A. My memory says it wasn't called a commission

2 or felt like a commission at all.

3 Q. Okay. So why not?

4 A. Because it wasn't.

5 Q. Okay, so --

6 A. It was at the discretion of Mr. Madoff.

7 Q. So Mr. Madoff had complete discretion how

8 much remuneration to give you?

9 A. Always.

10 Q. Always, and you had no understanding as to

11 how much that remuneration would be?


13 Q. And so how would you characterize the

14 remuneration if it is not a commission, how would you

15 describe it?

16 A. Adjustments by Mr. Madoff.

17 Q. So you would describe it as an adjustment?

18 A. Uh-hum.

19 Q. Can you describe the adjustments in more

20 detail? What makes it an adjustment? That's what I

21 am trying to get at.

22 A. Mr. Madoff is the one who a made whatever he

23 did. I can't tell you what the adjustments were or

24 why he made them.

25 Q. Did this remuneration get paid to you one




Page 275

1 time?

2 A. Well, throughout the existence of A & B.

3 Q. Well, I thought we were in the time period

4 after A & B closed.

5 A. 1992 you said.

6 Q. So A & B closed around '92, '93, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the remuneration we have been talking

9 about is for the amounts that the former A & B

10 clients reinvested in Madoff?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you would agree, then, those investments

13 of those former A & B clients happened after '92,

14 '93, right?

15 A. Definitely.

16 Q. And so in that post-'92, '93 period, did you

17 only get this remuneration from Madoff one time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So how long did it continue?

20 A. Continuously, I'm assuming, with Grosvenor,

21 et cetera.

22 Q. So the remuneration would, I think you had

23 told me they would come via the transactions in your

24 accounts?

25 A. Yes.




Page 276

1 Q. That were opened after A & B closed?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So that would be in Grosvenor. Sorry, I

4 still didn't drop the S. Do you remember any of the

5 other accounts besides Grosvenor?

6 A. It was probably Grosvenor and Mayfair.

7 Q. Any others?

8 A. KJA.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. That's the ones I remember.

11 Q. And so you recall that in these three

12 accounts Mr. Madoff had provided this remuneration?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he provided it throughout the history of

15 those accounts being opened?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So then through basically revelation of the

18 fraud in December 2008?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Okay. Is there any way that you would know

21 whether Mr. Madoff had made these adjustments to

22 provide this remuneration in your accounts?


24 Q. You don't remember. You don't remember

25 checking the transactions to see if he had provided




Page 277

1 you with remuneration in a given month?

2 A. I can't recall. I really can't.

3 Q. So I think we were talking about yesterday

4 sort of the process that you would go through on the

5 account statements. We even looked at a few I

6 think --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- where you would look at the gains and the

9 losses, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So when you would do that process, was there

12 anything in particular you were looking for to sort

13 of signal the transactions that were remuneration?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. So if I am understanding you right,

18 essentially it was totally in Madoff's discretion to

19 provide this remuneration?

20 A. Always.

21 Q. In whatever amounts he chose?

22 A. Always.

23 Q. And then you, at any point you never checked

24 to see the amount of remuneration that he was giving

25 you at a given point in time?




Page 278


2 Q. I think we talked about this yesterday, but

3 you didn't know the exact amount, or not even exact

4 amount, but did you have any idea of the amount that

5 the former A & B clients had reinvested with BLMIS

6 directly after A & B closed?

7 A. I knew the amount.

8 Q. You did, okay. How much was the amount?

9 A. I recall 300 million plus, something to that

10 effect.

11 Q. 300 million plus, okay. Were there any

12 conversations with Mr. Madoff about this remuneration

13 based on the 300 million plus?


15 Q. So how did you know that you were going to

16 get the remuneration?

17 A. Later on he probably sent transactions on a

18 sheet of paper that said this is the accounts, or

19 maybe I sent it to him, these are the people, and I

20 believe I had received, created a statement of people

21 and the amounts, maybe money-wise, only money-wise,

22 and I recall something like 300 million and then

23 percentages and something to that effect.

24 Q. Okay. So you think you recall, whether you

25 created it or BLMIS, Madoff created it, there were




Page 279

1 some sort of list of former A & B clients who had

2 opened up direct accounts with Bernie?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And this is after A & B closed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And on that list were the A & B

7 client names, right?

8 A. I believe, yes.

9 Q. And then what else was on the list that you

10 remember?


12 Q. Were the amounts that they reinvested into

13 BLMIS on the list?

14 A. It may have been.

15 Q. Okay. And you referenced a percentage. Was

16 it your understanding that you were getting a

17 percentage of the 300 plus million that we were

18 talking about that was reinvested by the A & B former

19 clients?

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. Do you remember what that percentage was?

22 A. I think it varied.

23 Q. And why did it vary?

24 A. Depending on Bernie Madoff's experience with

25 what he was making.




Page 280

1 Q. Okay. Do you remember what the percentage

2 was set at initially?

3 A. I recall a piece of paper that said it

4 started with 17 percent.

5 Q. So 17 percent of the 300 plus million?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And then it's your understanding that

8 that amount changed. Like did it change monthly,

9 yearly, do you know how often it changed?

10 A. No, I can't recall the time now.

11 Q. Just going back to when, the time period, I

12 guess you had to have conversations with Mr. Madoff

13 about this, right, when it started?

14 A. I may have.

15 Q. You may have had, but do you remember

16 speaking to him about it?

17 A. I don't recall that.

18 Q. No? I guess let me ask you this. Was there

19 anyone else at BLMIS, other than Mr. Madoff, who was

20 involved in the remuneration?

21 A. The only one I ever spoke about remuneration

22 was with DiPascali.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. That's the only other one that I can recall.

25 Q. So tell me what you spoke to him about




Page 281

1 related to the remuneration.

2 A. I can't recall what I spoke about, but I --

3 Q. You just know you interacted with him about

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So did Mr. DiPascali -- I don't know if it's

7 DiPascal or DiPascali, so forgive me if I am

8 butchering the name, but did he know the details of

9 the remuneration that you were to get from

10 Mr. Madoff?

11 A. I believe he may have known. I can't recall

12 totally.

13 Q. But you know that you spoke to him in some

14 way related to the remuneration?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you remember how often?

17 A. No. I can't recall that.

18 Q. Let me just take a look one second.

19 Let me actually show you -- we didn't use

20 this document yesterday, so this is a new document.

21 It's actually your -- Frank Avellino's responses to

22 the Trustee's first set of interrogatories, so I am

23 going to show you that document as well.

24 We are going to mark this Trustee Exhibit

25 48, please. You can put 26 aside.




Page 282


2 identification.)

3 Q. I am handing you what has been marked as

4 Trustee Exhibit 48. As I mentioned, they are your

5 responses to the Trustee's first set of

6 interrogatories, and if you could turn to page 6.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to focus on number 8, and the

9 interrogatory asks, "Identify all management fees,

10 advisory fees, administrative fees, performance fees,

11 incentive fees, referral fees, commissions and/or any

12 other fees paid by BLMIS to any defendant, and how

13 such fees or commissions were paid."

14 And then the response is, "Trades were made

15 on some of defendant's accounts in consideration for

16 the former A & B clients directly investing with

17 BLMIS. The values of such transactions can be

18 derived from the BLMIS statements."

19 I'm just going to stop there, Mr. Avellino?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Just focusing on the first line there in

22 your interrogatory responses, "Trades were made on

23 some of defendant's accounts in consideration for the

24 former A & B clients directly investing with BLMIS."

25 A. Yes.




Page 283

1 Q. Is that the remuneration we were talking

2 about just before?

3 A. I believe so.

4 Q. And it's the same defendants accounts that

5 you had mentioned, Grosvenor, Mayfair and KJA?

6 A. I believe so.

7 Q. And then sitting here today, are there any

8 other defendant's accounts that trades were made on

9 in connection with this answer?


11 Q. Yesterday we talked about the St. James

12 account, which was a Bienes account?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall if that account received any

15 remuneration?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. And actually let me ask you this, because

18 the St. James account really is to Mr. Bienes. Was

19 Mr. Bienes aware of the remuneration from BLMIS in

20 connection with the former A & B investors

21 reinvesting?

22 A. I believe he was.

23 Q. And why do you believe he was?

24 A. I just believe he was, that's all. I can't

25 recall why or how, but I believe he was.




Page 284

1 Q. Well, he receives the benefit of the

2 remuneration because he had interest Grosvenor or the

3 Mayfair accounts, correct?

4 A. No, he had -- he had an interest in the

5 people that were back at Bernie Madoff's accounts.

6 Q. What do you mean by that?

7 A. The $300 million that were back were part of

8 the A & B accounts and he was part of that.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Nothing to do with Mayfair or Grosvenor.

11 Q. Let me just make sure I understand. I think

12 you had said before that Grosvenor and the Mayfair

13 accounts were accounts that had trades in them that

14 essentially represented the remuneration that BLMIS

15 or Madoff was giving you for the A & B investors

16 reinvesting, right, in BLMIS after A & B closed?

17 A. Yes. Uh-hum.

18 Q. So Mr. Bienes had, he had an interest in the

19 Mayfair BLMIS account, right? Didn't he own part of

20 the account?

21 A. You have to remind me of the time factors,

22 because St. James was probably not set up at that

23 same time.

24 Q. Right. So let's put St. James aside for a

25 second. So the Mayfair and Grosvenor accounts --




Page 285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who owned those accounts at BLMIS?

3 A. I believe the Avellino family and the Bienes

4 family.

5 Q. So if there was remuneration provided

6 through the transactions in those accounts, who would

7 actually receive that remuneration?

8 A. Those accounts.

9 Q. Those accounts, okay. So the Bienes family

10 and the Avellino family would eventually share in the

11 remuneration that was received by those accounts?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall conversations with Mr. Bienes

14 after A & B closed about the remuneration from BLMIS?


16 Q. So you had no conversations about this

17 remuneration that would happen from BLMIS and how it

18 would happen?

19 A. No, not that I recall.

20 Q. Let's go to the second sentence of this

21 interrogatory response. It says, "The values of such

22 transactions can be derived from the BLMIS

23 statements."

24 How can the values of the transactions be

25 derived from the BLMIS statements?




Page 286

1 A. I don't recall what that means.

2 Q. You don't know what that means? Okay.

3 So sitting here today, is there any specific

4 transaction that you can think of that represented

5 this remuneration we have been talking about?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No? And sitting here today, do you have any

8 idea roughly how much in remuneration you were

9 provided in those BLMIS accounts we talked about?


11 Q. Okay. As of let's say November 2008, do you

12 have a rough idea about how much you thought you had

13 in your BLMIS accounts?

14 A. None whatsoever. I can't recall any of it.

15 Q. No? Okay.

16 Do you know, sitting here today do you know

17 anyone who knew how it could be ascertained from the

18 trades on the statements how much the remuneration

19 was?

20 A. I can't recall anybody knowing that.

21 Q. So I think we talked about -- I just want to

22 cover the universe of people who knew about this

23 remuneration that BLMIS was providing.

24 A. Sure.

25 Q. So I think we talked about Mr. Madoff,




Page 287

1 obviously, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you think he would understand where the

4 remuneration was coming from on the transactions on

5 the statement?

6 A. Mr. Madoff?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. I would assume so.

9 Q. And Mr. DiPascali we mentioned?

10 A. He knew.

11 Q. Okay. And, you know, if he were to look at

12 a statement, do you think that he could, if he were

13 alive, do you think he could ascertain how the

14 remuneration was paid on the accounts?

15 A. I don't know, but I believe he could.

16 Q. Was there anyone else at BLMIS who would

17 have knowledge of the transactions that represented

18 the remuneration?

19 A. Not that I could recall.

20 Q. Okay. And then we talked about Mr. Bienes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And other than Mr. Bienes and you, is there

23 anyone else who knew about the remuneration we have

24 been talking about?





Page 288

1 Q. Okay. You know what? I am just going to

2 show you quickly one of the exhibits from yesterday

3 that we looked at. This is --

4 A. Can I put this away?

5 Q. Yes. This is Trustee Exhibit 35 from

6 yesterday. It's several Grosvenor Partners' BLMIS

7 statements that we spoke about, and they are from

8 2005.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. I just want you to take a look at that and

11 just see if it refreshes your recollection at all

12 about whether you can figure out from those

13 statements if any of those transactions represented

14 the remuneration we have been talking about. And

15 feel free to flip through.

16 I know we went over your handwriting that

17 was on there yesterday and what you were doing, but

18 just let me know if there are any transactions on

19 there that you believe represent the remuneration we

20 have been talking about.

21 A. I can't recall that, no. I don't think so.

22 Q. I appreciate your looking. You can put that

23 aside.

24 The former A & B clients who reinvested in

25 BLMIS after A & B closed, did you have any role with




Page 289

1 respect to those accounts after they opened? I know

2 we said yesterday -- let me just go back.

3 Yesterday you talked about how you let some

4 of the former A & B clients know that they could open

5 accounts directly with BLMIS; you remember that,

6 right?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. So aside from that, was there any other role

9 that you played with respect to those former A & B

10 clients' accounts?


12 Q. So as best as you know, this remuneration

13 was only based upon the amount that those former

14 clients reinvested into Bernie after A & B closed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And not in return for anything else?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay.


20 identification.)

21 Q. All right, Mr. Avellino, I am handing you a

22 document marked Trustee Exhibit 49. If you could

23 take a look at that document and let me know if you

24 recognize it.

25 A. I don't recognize it.




Page 290

1 Q. You don't recognize it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do any of the numbers on this document mean

4 anything to you?


6 Q. No?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting on this

9 document?

10 A. No.

11 Q. If you look at the bottom right-hand side of

12 the page, do you see there is a GROV and then an MA,

13 I think that's a Y?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then it looks like there is a 17

16 percent?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Does that at all mean anything to you

19 related to what you had told me before about that 17

20 percent number?

21 A. No, not according to this document I don't

22 know what it means.

23 Q. Let me ask you this. Were you aware of

24 Frank DiPascali's testimony at the criminal trial

25 against some of the former BLMIS employees?




Page 291


2 Q. No one ever summarized it for you?


4 Q. I can tell you he testified that this was a

5 document that was handed to him after a meeting

6 between you and Mr. Madoff.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Do you remember meeting with Mr. Madoff

9 around this time period? This document is from

10 February 3, 1994. Do you remember having any

11 meetings with Mr. Madoff around that time?

12 A. I can't recall any.

13 Q. I think we spoke about you had some

14 conversations with Mr. Madoff about or at least one

15 with the remuneration that you would get for the

16 former A & B investors reinvesting?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember around when that was?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you remember speaking to him in person

21 about it?

22 A. I can't recall that.

23 Q. You don't know, okay.

24 This letter has information related to Ed

25 Glantz and Steve Mendelow and Joel Levey and Richard




Page 292

1 Glantz?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were any of those individuals at all related

4 to the remuneration that you were receiving that we

5 were talking about?


7 Q. No? Okay. All right, you can put that

8 document aside.

9 MS. ZUNNO: This is going to be 50.


11 identification.)

12 Q. I am going to hand you a document marked

13 Trustee Exhibit 50. You can take a look at it and

14 let me know if you recognize it.

15 A. I can't recall what it is. Let me see the

16 date on it. Okay.

17 Q. Do you recognize your signature on the page,

18 on the first page?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let me just say for the record this is a

21 document Bates numbered MADTSS01124224. So you said

22 you recognize your signature?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What about the name at the top?

25 A. Printed name?




Page 293

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. That's my name.

3 Q. Do you have any reason to believe you didn't

4 send this letter?

5 A. I don't know if I sent it, but I don't

6 recall it.

7 Q. So let's see if we can go through it.

8 Actually, before we do that, could you just

9 turn the page to the next page ending in 225?

10 A. Uh-hum.

11 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting on this

12 document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it yours?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. So let's go back to the front, the typed up

17 version. You would agree the date is May 15, '96?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It reads, "Dear Frank." Do you think that's

20 a reference to Mr. DiPascali?

21 A. I think so.

22 Q. Okay. Well, are there any other Franks --

23 and I can tell you, by the way, that the Bates number

24 represents that this was a document in BLMIS' files.

25 A. Okay.




Page 294

1 Q. So was there anyone else at BLMIS named

2 Frank that you corresponded with at any point in

3 time?

4 A. Not that I recall, no.

5 Q. I'm sorry, other than Mr. DiPascali, anyone

6 else named Frank other than Mr. DiPascali?

7 A. No.

8 Q. This reads, "I checked the information that

9 you sent to me." Do you remember around this time

10 what information Frank was sending to you?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. Did Frank ever send you information related

13 to the remuneration that BLMIS was giving you for the

14 A & B investors reinvesting in BLMIS?

15 A. Again I don't recall.

16 Q. It says here, "The only correction I have is

17 the adjustment for the distribution of 1,216,000 for

18 1993 and 1,000,016 for 1994 and thereafter for

19 others." Do you remember anything about this?

20 A. Not at all.

21 Q. So this is referencing an adjustment for the

22 distribution of certain money that's indicated there?

23 A. Uh-hum.

24 Q. What does adjustment for the distribution

25 mean?




Page 295

1 A. I don't recall. I really don't know what it

2 means.

3 Q. And there are numbers here related to 1993

4 and 1994?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember receiving any form of

7 remuneration in 1993 or 1994, the remuneration we

8 have been talking about?

9 A. I can't recall at that time.

10 Q. And then the next line says, "The net effect

11 of the computation shows a difference of 434,000 in

12 my favor"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So does that, what does that sentence mean?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. You don't know?


18 Q. Let's look at the next page that you said

19 had your handwriting.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Actually, before we go to that, there is a

22 third and a fourth page that has handwriting on it

23 here. Do you recognize that handwriting? It's the

24 pages that end in 226 and 227.

25 A. No.




Page 296

1 Q. No? Did you ever receive any documents from

2 anyone at BLMIS with handwriting that looked like

3 this?

4 A. Not that I recall that, no.

5 Q. No? Okay. All right. So let's go to the

6 page ending in 225.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Let me just ask you this generally. So

9 sitting here today, looking at the numbers on this

10 page and what's going on on this page, does this mean

11 anything to you?

12 A. Again, nothing that I recall.

13 Q. You have no idea what these numbers mean?

14 A. None whatsoever.

15 Q. Not a single one on here?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I just want to run through a few and let's

18 talk about them.

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. To the extent anything comes back to you in

21 your mind. So there is the line 1. It says, "Base

22 336"?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Does that mean anything to you?

25 A. That number is the one that the people sent




Page 297

1 money back to Madoff.

2 Q. Okay. So we were talking before that you

3 thought there was approximately 300 plus million that

4 the former A & B investors put in?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you think that number was 336?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then if you move over to the right a

9 little bit, there is the 6,720,000?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what that is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I can tell you, I'm not great at math, so I

14 had assistance, but that is actually, if you take 336

15 million, it's 2 percent of the 336 million.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Does that number mean anything, 2 percent?


19 Q. No? Okay.

20 There is a line underneath others?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know what you are referencing there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. No idea?

25 A. No.




Page 298

1 Q. Would you agree from the numbers though,

2 there is the number below the 6,720,000, it's in

3 brackets, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So when you would use brackets, what would

6 that indicate?

7 A. That would be a minus.

8 Q. A minus? Okay. So to the best of your

9 knowledge, was there anything subtracted out of --

10 was there anything subtracted from any amount of

11 remuneration that you would be getting from BLMIS?

12 A. I can't recall again.

13 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next line. Actually

14 two lines down. There is an at 17, do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does that have any meaning to you?

17 A. I'm assuming it only means 17 times 336 it

18 looks like.

19 Q. 17 -- okay.

20 A. I think. Yes.

21 Q. You don't remember?

22 A. I don't remember that.

23 Q. And the same goes for that at 17 that's a

24 couple of lines down?

25 A. Right.




Page 299

1 Q. So on the right-hand side of the document --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- I think it's column 2, there are some

4 dates?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 12/93, 12/94, 12/95, 12/95, 12/95. Do you

7 recall anything about those dates in the context of

8 this document?

9 A. No, I don't recall.

10 Q. Okay. So it looks like here there is some

11 math happening related to this time period. Do you

12 have any idea what math is happening on this

13 document?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. And why it's happening?

16 A. No, I can't remember any of it.

17 Q. Let's look at -- so the at 17, I think that

18 you had -- you had said before, I had asked you if

19 you remembered what percentage related to

20 remuneration was initially of the 300 plus million?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you had said that you remember a piece

23 of paper that said it started at 17 percent. Is this

24 the piece of paper that you were thinking of?

25 A. Again, I can't recall if this is the one.




Page 300

1 Q. You don't know if this is the one?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And let's go a little further on the

4 left-hand side, there is an MISC?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then under that is a G and an M and a P?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you have any idea what that's

9 referencing?

10 A. G, maybe Glantz and maybe Mendelow.

11 Q. Possibly Glantz and Mendelow?

12 A. Yes. I can't remember which is which.

13 Q. Were Glantz and Mendelow at all related to

14 any of the remuneration that you were getting from

15 BLMIS that we have been talking about?

16 A. It may be, but I can't recall that either.

17 Q. Maybe, okay. Let's look at the very bottom

18 of the page or I guess towards the bottom.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There are some initials there, EG, SM, JL

21 and RG.

22 A. That looks like EG is Eddie Glantz, Steve

23 Mendelow, Joe Levey and Richard Glantz.

24 Q. And then to the right there there are some

25 numbers?




Page 301

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Under the heading of 1993 and 1994

3 thereafter?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you have any idea what these numbers

6 represent?

7 A. Not at all.

8 Q. And if you look back to the document we

9 marked previously as Trustee Exhibit 49, I just want

10 to show you that. It appears that the numbers on the

11 document Trustee Exhibit 50, in columns next to the

12 initials, they correspond to the numbers on this

13 document, Trustee Exhibit 49. You would agree with

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So does any of that mean anything to you,

17 any of those numbers; does it bring back any memories

18 related to Trustee Exhibit 49?

19 A. None whatsoever. I can't recall any of it.

20 Q. Okay. So sitting here today, you have no

21 recollection of this document?

22 A. None at all.

23 Q. And I am showing Trustee Exhibit 50. You

24 can put that aside.

25 MS. ZUNNO: We are going to mark this as




Page 302

1 Trustee Exhibit 51.


3 identification.)

4 Q. All right, Mr. Avellino, do you recognize

5 Trustee Exhibit 51?

6 A. It's my handwriting.

7 Q. Okay. It's your handwriting. Can you read

8 me the date of the document?

9 A. December 15, 1998.

10 Q. It says, "Dear Frank." Do you know who that

11 is?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I can tell you that this, again, it's a

14 document from BLMIS' files, so if that helps.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So do you think it was a letter to

17 Mr. DiPascali?

18 A. It may be.

19 Q. Let's read, and I think you told me this is

20 your handwriting?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So let's read the letter. "I hope all is

23 well with you."

24 "Yes, it's that time of year again."

25 Let me just stop there. What did you mean




Page 303

1 by, "Yes, it's that time of year again"?

2 A. I don't remember or recall, but I'm looking

3 at December 15.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Maybe it's the time of the year at the end

6 of the year.

7 Q. Was there anything significant in your mind

8 about the end of the year with respect to your BLMIS

9 accounts?

10 A. 1998?

11 Q. Right, let's talk about 1998.

12 A. No recall.

13 Q. What about generally any year after A & B

14 closed, right, and you had investments with BLMIS,

15 was there anything significant to you about December

16 of a given year?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? Okay.

19 So sitting here today, you don't know what

20 "Yes, it's that time of year again" means?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And there was nothing that happened each

23 year around this time --

24 A. No.

25 Q. -- related to your BLMIS accounts?




Page 304

1 A. No.

2 Q. "Just a note to touch base about the

3 accounts."

4 I'll stop there. Touch base about the

5 accounts, do you know what accounts you were

6 referring to?

7 A. At that time, no.

8 Q. No? Okay. The next line says, "Please make

9 necessary trades in all of the accounts," and the all

10 is underlined, and then there are three accounts or

11 there are three names listed. "1, Grosvenor

12 Partners, LTD; 2, Mayfair Ventures, and 3, Mayfair

13 Ventures Pension Plan."

14 What did you mean by that sentence?

15 A. I can't recall what it meant.

16 Q. Putting aside the document, do you remember

17 at any time asking for BLMIS or anyone at BLMIS to

18 make "necessary trades" in your accounts?


20 Q. So you don't know what making necessary

21 trades in the accounts means?

22 A. Not at all. I don't recall.

23 Q. We have been talking about the remuneration

24 process, the remuneration you got, and that came via

25 the form of transactions in your account, right?




Page 305

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you think the necessary trades referenced

3 here related to that remuneration in any way?

4 A. I can't say, I think. I don't remember.

5 Q. You don't know, okay.

6 This list, Grosvenor and Mayfair we have

7 spoken about, but the Mayfair Ventures Pension Plan?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did that have a BLMIS account?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And to your knowledge, did that account

12 receive any of the remuneration we have been talking

13 about?



16 A. No.

17 Q. All right, the next line, "I believe the

18 total base of the three accounts will be enough to

19 even up the balance due." So this is referring to a

20 balance due?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What does that refer to?

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. No idea?

25 A. I don't recall that either.




Page 306

1 Q. Was there ever any balance due from BLMIS or

2 Madoff at any point in time?


4 Q. Okay. The next line, "My calculations show

5 that BLM was short," and then the short is

6 underlined. In parenthesis (for 12/31/97) and again

7 it says approx 2,500,000.

8 So let's start first. It says, "My

9 calculations show." Do you know what that's

10 referring to?

11 A. No.

12 Q. The BLM there, do you know what that's

13 referring to?

14 A. BLM?

15 Q. Uh-hum.

16 A. I'm looking to see where it is.

17 Q. It's the line that says, "My calculations

18 show."

19 A. Oh, I see. Yes. Yes. I see it now.

20 Q. "My calculations show that" --

21 A. BLM?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Bernie Madoff's accounts.

24 Q. BLM, Bernie Madoff's accounts, and then it

25 says "was short." Do you know what the short is in




Page 307

1 reference to?

2 A. Not at all. I can't recall that.

3 Q. Let's put aside the document for a second.

4 Did you ever, aside from in this document,

5 did you ever refer to any of your BLMIS accounts as

6 being short?


8 Q. Okay. It says "BLM was short" and then

9 there is a time period. It looks like it's the

10 year-end 1997, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it says approximately 2.5 million?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So does that 2.5 million mean anything to

15 you?

16 A. I can't recall any of it.

17 Q. Okay. Let's see. The next line says,

18 "Please send me a copy of the calcs you have for 1997

19 and 1998."

20 Do you remember any calculations that were

21 ever provided to you from anyone at BLMIS?

22 A. I can't recall if they were provided.

23 Q. You can put that document aside.

24 MS. ZUNNO: This is going to be Trustee

25 Exhibit 52.




Page 308


2 identification.)

3 Q. All right, Mr. Avellino, I am handing you a

4 document marked Trustee Exhibit 52. It's Bates

5 stamped MADTSS01124087. Do you recognize the

6 document?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recognize any of the handwriting on

9 the document?

10 A. No.

11 Q. If you look in the upper right, do you see

12 your name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There is a phone number, 212-396-0404?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recognize that number?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What number is that?

19 A. That's my New York number.

20 Q. For your New York apartment?

21 A. New York apartment, yes.

22 Q. By the way, do you still have that

23 apartment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is the one on Park Avenue?




Page 309

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there is a time 11:18 it looks like?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then do you see it says 12/27 and then

5 it says year-end planning?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. My question is do you recall ever doing

8 "year-end planning" with anyone at BLMIS?


10 Q. Or any knowledge whatsoever about what that

11 year-end planning could reference?

12 A. No, I can't recall.

13 Q. Okay, you can put that aside.

14 MS. ZUNNO: We can mark this Trustee Exhibit

15 53.


17 identification.)

18 Q. Just switching gears for a second, sitting

19 here today, you know, we have been talking about

20 those accounts that you and your family and Bienes

21 had after 1992, after A & B closed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you remember anything about the

24 performance of those accounts, how those accounts

25 did?




Page 310

1 A. Not at all. I can't recall that.

2 Q. Do you recall that they were profitable?

3 A. I can't recall whether they were profitable

4 or not. In what sense, I don't know.

5 Q. Well, let's think about this. So BLMIS

6 had -- after A & B closed, right, do you remember how

7 much -- did you personally invest any money into

8 BLMIS after A & B closed?

9 A. I can't recall that. I don't know.


11 A. No.

12 Q. Let's look at this document, Trustee Exhibit

13 53. Just take a look at that document and let me

14 know if you recognize it.

15 Do you recognize this document, Mr. Avellino?

16 A. I can't recall it, no.

17 Q. Your name is at the top and your address,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It is to, "Hi Tom," and it says, "Love Dad."

21 So is this a letter to Tom, Thomas Avellino, your

22 son?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I just want to ask you about a line in here.

25 It's four paragraphs down.




Page 311

1 A. Four paragraphs?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. And it starts, "Since the rates of return

5 from BLM are the practically the same for all of the

6 accounts, we should probably transfer Paragon's

7 account balance to Strattham so that you have all of

8 Donald's funds under one roof. I see no benefit

9 having an account with Grosvenor at this time. My

10 current thinking is to dissolve Grosvenor entirely."

11 Do you remember anything about that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. No?

14 A. I can't recall that. What year was this?

15 Q. I don't see a date on the document. Do you

16 have any recollection of around what time this may

17 have been?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did there come a point in time when

20 Grosvenor dissolved entirely?


22 Q. Like as of December 2008, there was still a

23 Grosvenor account at BLMIS?

24 A. 2008?

25 Q. Yes. Right before. So right before the




Page 312

1 fraud was revealed, Grosvenor still had an account,

2 right?

3 A. I would assume, yes.

4 Q. The first line there, "Since the rates of

5 return from BLM are the practically the same for all

6 of the accounts," I think there is an extra the in

7 that line, I just wanted to ask you about that line

8 in particular.

9 In your experience with your BLMIS accounts,

10 were the rates of account from BLM practically the

11 same in all of the accounts?

12 A. I don't recall that, but if I said so, then

13 it was.

14 Q. And sitting here today you have no idea of

15 an estimate of what those rates of returns in the

16 accounts actually were?

17 A. No, I can't recall any of it.

18 Q. Okay, you can put that aside.

19 Let me actually ask you this, because I know

20 you are an accountant and you will tell me because I

21 don't know these things. So if BLMIS had given you

22 the remuneration in cash or checks, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would those have been treated as income on

25 tax returns?




Page 313

1 A. In cash?

2 Q. Yes. If you got cash or checks directly

3 from BLM for that remuneration?

4 A. That question doesn't even make any sense.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Because nobody gives cash.

7 Q. So let's talk about checks.

8 A. Checks.

9 Q. So if Bernie decided to pay this

10 remuneration we have been talking about in a check?

11 A. If.

12 Q. If. In a check, would it be income?

13 A. All income has to be picked up.

14 Q. And then if he, the way he did it you were

15 telling me is through transactions, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If there were any gains from those

18 transactions --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- how would those be reported on tax

21 returns?

22 A. As always, capital gains, capital losses,

23 dividends, et cetera.

24 Q. Capital gains, capital losses and what?

25 A. And dividends.




Page 314

1 Q. Is the interest rate on capital gains lower

2 or higher than the interest rate on income?

3 A. Oh, you mean the capital gains?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. The Schedule D accounts is what you are

6 talking about?

7 Q. Yes. So I'm trying to understand is the

8 capital gains --

9 A. The same rates?

10 Q. Yes, the same rate, the same rate on capital

11 gains -- is the rate the same on capital gains as it

12 is for income?

13 A. The net income is the same.

14 Q. The net income is the same. What does that

15 mean?

16 A. Well, whatever the net amount is, that's

17 what you pay on.

18 Q. Okay. So I think I have been mucking it up

19 by referring to things the wrong way. So the tax

20 rate percentage?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On income?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it the same as the tax rate percentage on

25 capital gain?




Page 315

1 A. Basically, yes.

2 Q. Basically?

3 A. Basically. There are adjustments, but

4 basically yes.

5 Q. What kind of adjustments are there?

6 A. They have long, short.

7 Q. Sitting here today, as a prior CPA, is there

8 any tax benefit to getting remuneration via

9 transactions versus via a check?

10 A. I can't recall, no.


12 A. No. Ordinary income is ordinary income.

13 Q. So would any gains from those transactions

14 that occurred that represented the remuneration,

15 those gains are ordinary income?

16 A. There is long-term and short-term.

17 Short-term is ordinary, long-term may have a

18 percentage depending upon which year you do it.

19 Q. So is the long-term interest rate, the

20 long-term tax rate, is that lower than the tax rate

21 on income?

22 A. It may be. It depends on the year.

23 Q. Okay. Okay. Thanks. I just wanted a

24 little more information on that. Okay.

25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the




Page 316

1 video record. The time noted is 10:18 a.m.

2 (A recess was taken.)


4 record. The time is 10:27 a.m.

5 MS. ZUNNO: I am going to mark this Trustee

6 Exhibit 54.


8 identification.)

9 Q. Mr. Avellino, I am handing you what's been

10 marked Trustee Exhibit 54. The Bates number is

11 KRASS00009. Do you recognize this document?

12 A. No. I'm sorry.

13 Q. You don't?

14 A. No.

15 Q. It says at the top, "Last Will and Testament

16 of Frank J. Avellino"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's look at the date. May be that will

19 help. It's August 1980.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. If you turn to, it looks like it's the

22 second to last page, it's the page ending in Bates

23 number 23.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. I think you are on 24, so the next one, 23.




Page 317

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. The date of it is August 14, 1980?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There is a signature there. Is that your

5 signature?

6 A. The one that --

7 Q. Yes, there is sort of a /S/ and then it says

8 Frank Avellino?

9 A. It looks like it. It looks different.

10 Q. Yes, I agree, but I wanted to ask you.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Do you remember executing a will around this

13 time period, August 1980?

14 A. Oh, gosh, I can't recall, but. I may have.

15 Q. Okay. Do you recognize any of the names of

16 the witnesses on that page?

17 A. Steven Krass, yes, he was the attorney.

18 Q. So he was an attorney that you used in

19 connection with?

20 A. With this will.

21 Q. Estate planning or wills?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you recognize the name as somebody who

24 was your lawyer at some point?

25 A. Definitely.




Page 318

1 Q. Who is below that, Renee Siegel?


3 Q. Let's just go back. Let me ask you this

4 generally. Do you remember at any point in time

5 having Bernie Madoff as an executor under any of your

6 wills?

7 A. Not that I recall it.

8 Q. Or a trustee under any will that you ever

9 had?


11 Q. So let's look, if you turn the page to Bates

12 number ending in 17, so 17, there is an article 7,

13 Executors and Trustees, and I am just going to read

14 what it says under A. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It says, "I appoint my sister Linda Cavazni

17 and my friend Bernard Madoff as executors and

18 trustees under this will"?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. So let me ask you this. Bernie is being

21 referred to as my friend. Did you consider him your

22 friend?

23 A. My lawyer must have considered him my

24 friend, but was he a friend.

25 Q. Right.




Page 319

1 A. A friend is a big definition. I assume he

2 used that for legal reasons.

3 Q. Okay. And putting aside the document, did

4 you consider Mr. Madoff a friend at any point in your

5 relationship with him?

6 A. All I could say, he was never an enemy. I

7 don't know what that means, but that's what it is.

8 Q. Did you ever socialize with Mr. Madoff?

9 A. No.

10 Q. No?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Mr. Madoff at some point in time had a house

13 in Palm Beach, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know where it was in relation to your

16 home?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was it?

19 A. It was, if I remember the streets.

20 Q. You don't have to remember the street, but

21 was it within a couple of blocks from your home?

22 A. About four blocks, five blocks.

23 Q. Did you ever go to his home in Palm Beach?

24 A. I went there, yes.

25 Q. Okay. How often?




Page 320

1 A. For business reasons, once, twice.

2 Q. Do you remember when?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And what was the business reason?

5 A. I think someone was looking to get into the

6 business of the financial trading and it was a friend

7 of our daughter Rachel, and I figured he would be the

8 one to describe whether he should do it or not.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. There was a time.

11 Q. And do you remember any other times going to

12 his house in Palm Beach?

13 A. I can't recall any other time. I can't

14 recall it, no.

15 Q. And that time that you went to discuss what

16 you just described relating to business, was that

17 after A & B had closed or before? I'm just trying to

18 get a general time period.

19 A. I can't recall the time, no.

20 Q. Going back to this, do you remember this

21 point in time, around 1980, having Bernard Madoff

22 appointed as your co-executor or co-trustee of your

23 will?

24 A. The only reason I could think is that Steven

25 Krass figured he has your money. Who better? I'm




Page 321

1 assuming that again. That's an assumption that I

2 know I was told by my attorney not to make, but

3 that's what it is.

4 Q. Let me ask you this. Is this document the

5 current will that you have in place?

6 A. I think I have new wills somewhere.

7 Q. So to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Madoff

8 is no longer a co-trustee or a co-executor of your

9 will?

10 A. To the best of my knowledge, I can't recall

11 that he is.

12 Q. Do you remember any point in time when you

13 were considering whether to remove him from this

14 role?

15 A. No. These wills only come up to my

16 recognition when you are changing it. I probably

17 never looked at this again.

18 Q. Okay. Okay. Let me ask you this. If you

19 can go to the page Bates numbered ending in 18.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At the bottom there is Article 10, Executors

22 and Trustees Powers.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If you can just read those over. I wanted

25 to ask you about a few of them to see if you




Page 322

1 remember.

2 A. Uh-hum.

3 Q. Specifically 3, 4 and 5. In the context of

4 Mr. Madoff, do any of those powers mean anything to

5 you related to your BLMIS investments? I think you

6 had said that -- well, let me just leave it at that.


8 Q. You can't recall? Okay. Let's look at

9 number 11. This is under Section 10, Executors and

10 Trustees Powers. Number 11 says -- well, let me read

11 actually the intro to this. On page Bates numbered

12 18 it says, "In the investment administration and

13 distribution of my estate or any trust created

14 hereunder, the executors and trustees shall have the

15 following powers, rights and duties in addition to

16 those conferred by law," and then under number 11 it

17 says, "To make loans and borrow money in such amounts

18 and upon such terms to or from themselves,

19 individually or from others, for any purpose and upon

20 any such terms as they in their sole and absolute

21 discretion may determine." Do you remember providing

22 Mr. Madoff with that power?


24 Q. I mean, sitting here today, at the time in

25 1980, would you have been comfortable giving




Page 323

1 Mr. Madoff that authority to make any loans or borrow

2 money in any amounts?

3 A. All I could say, again, he had my money, so

4 what choice do I have?

5 Q. Well, I mean, you had a choice of who to put

6 in here as the executor, right?

7 A. Yes. I had my sister, yes.

8 Q. And Mr. Madoff?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right, you can put that aside.

11 I think you had said a couple of times that

12 Mr. Madoff had all of your money. So after A & B

13 closed, right, so '92, '93 through 2008 --

14 A. Uh-hum.

15 Q. -- did you have any other investments with

16 any other brokers besides Mr. Madoff?

17 A. I can't recall any other brokers.

18 Q. You can't recall any other investments with

19 any other brokers?

20 A. Not at all. Not that I recall, no.

21 Q. Do you ever remember ever considering

22 investing with anyone else other than BLMIS and

23 Mr. Madoff?


25 Q. Were you at all concerned about diversifying




Page 324

1 your investments?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why?

4 A. I just wasn't. I mean, I wasn't

5 sophisticated enough.

6 Q. Let me switch gears for a second.

7 A. Sure.

8 Q. Regarding the legal fees in connection with

9 this matter, okay?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you currently paying the legal fees for

12 any other defendants in this case other than your

13 wife?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Which defendants?

16 A. Diane Bienes.

17 Q. Diane Bienes. Anyone else?

18 A. Whomever the other trusts are, my children,

19 if they are involved.

20 Q. Okay. What about the estate of Michael

21 Bienes?

22 A. No, I have nothing to do with that.

23 Q. So you are not -- so you are paying the

24 legal fees for just Diane Bienes in her individual

25 capacity?




Page 325

1 A. Regarding this.

2 Q. Regarding this case?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And so Diane is in this case in her

5 individual capacity and then also as the

6 representative for Michael Bienes' estate?

7 A. I think so.

8 Q. So you would be paying the legal fees for

9 that as well?

10 A. No. The estate, I don't know what the

11 estate has to do with it.

12 Q. So it's your understanding you are paying

13 Diane Bienes' legal fees?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In whatever capacity she is being sued in

16 this case?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you referenced some trust and family

19 members as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let me ask it a different way. Are there

22 any -- to your knowledge, are there any defendants in

23 this case currently who are paying their own legal

24 fees?





Page 326

1 Q. Are you paying Thomas Avellino's legal fees?



4 A. No.

5 Q. Is there anything that you could look at

6 that would help you remember?

7 A. Not that I recall. Again, no.

8 Q. Do you remember at what point in time you

9 began paying Diane Bienes' legal fees?

10 A. When she received notices from you, I guess,

11 or your firm.

12 MR. WOODFIELD: Don't guess. Please don't

13 guess.

14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

15 MR. WOODFIELD: Please don't guess.

16 A. Okay, I don't know.

17 Q. Let me ask you this. Mr. Bienes passed away

18 at some point in time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember when that was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall if at the time he passed away,

23 were you paying the legal fees for him and his wife

24 in connection with this matter?

25 A. No.




Page 327

1 Q. No?

2 A. I don't think so.

3 Q. So you started paying the legal fees

4 sometime after Mr. Bienes passed away?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And how did it come about that you

7 started paying those legal fees on behalf of Diane

8 Bienes?

9 A. It was a matter of duty.

10 Q. It was a matter of duty?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In what way?

13 A. I promised Michael Bienes that I would make

14 sure that Diane would be okay.

15 Q. Okay. Okay. And are there any sort of

16 conditions in paying those fees?


18 Q. Does Diane need to pay you back for them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay, let's switch gears again. So after

21 the fraud was revealed, December 11, 2008, did you

22 receive any tax refunds related to any purported

23 losses in connection with your BLMIS accounts?

24 MR. WOODFIELD: I am going to object and

25 direct him not to answer. What I would suggest is




Page 328

1 why don't you ask all of the questions and we can

2 hold that to the end and we can, if you want to

3 continue the deposition, we can, or we can get a

4 ruling on it.

5 MS. ZUNNO: That's fine, and just so you

6 know our position for the record, Mr. Avellino

7 filed claims on behalf of various entities that

8 held BLMIS accounts, so any refunds would be

9 relevant to the consideration of those claims, but

10 we can -- if you are directing him not to answer,

11 we will put it aside.

12 MR. WOODFIELD: I am not directing him not

13 to answer, I am suggesting that we hold that until

14 the end and we can continue the deposition if you

15 want to pursue it and have the court resolve it.

16 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Avellino. Did you

17 submit any claims related to your purported BLMIS

18 losses through any home insurance policies that you

19 held after revelation of the fraud?


21 Q. No? Okay.

22 And are you aware that there is a Madoff

23 Victims Fund?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you submit any claims to that Madoff




Page 329

1 Victims Fund?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Related to which of your BLMIS

4 accounts, do you remember?

5 A. All of the accounts.

6 Q. All of them?

7 A. All of them.

8 Q. Were you ever paid from that Madoff Victims

9 Fund?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No?


13 Q. Do you know the status of what you

14 submitted?

15 A. I think they were denied.

16 Q. You think they were denied?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. Let me switch gears again. When we were

19 talking about the 1992 investigation and Mr. Sorkin

20 representing you, and I know you mentioned Madoff had

21 told you no one else but Mr. Sorkin, whatever your

22 testimony said?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did Mr. Madoff at all pay for any portion of

25 the legal fees for Mr. Sorkin's representation of you




Page 330

1 or Mr. Bienes during the SEC investigation?


3 Q. No? Did he ever sort of compensate you

4 through trades in your account for any legal fees

5 that you owed?


7 Q. Do you remember the last time that you

8 communicated with Mr. Madoff?


10 Q. No? Do you remember having any

11 communications with him after the fraud was revealed

12 in December 2008?

13 A. I can't recall that either.


15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know if any of your attorneys

17 communicated with Mr. Madoff after the fraud was

18 revealed?


20 Q. Did you communicate with any former BLMIS

21 employees after the fraud was revealed?


23 Q. No?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And that would include Mr. DiPascali,




Page 331

1 Ms. Buongiorno and Ms. Crupi, I think we talked about

2 those three yesterday?

3 A. Yes. I can't recall.

4 Q. You don't remember any communications with

5 them after the fraud was revealed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know if any of your attorneys

8 communicated with any of those former BLMIS employees

9 after the fraud was revealed?

10 A. I couldn't recall that, no.

11 Q. You don't know? Okay.

12 So in the interests of time, we had marked

13 the defendant's request to admit, I am just going to

14 summarize it instead of referring to the document,

15 but it admits that you attended meetings with Madoff

16 at BLMIS' offices, and it also admits that Mr. Bienes

17 attended meetings with Madoff at BLMIS' offices.

18 Sitting here today, do you know, can you tell me

19 about those meetings, any meetings that you remember?

20 A. I can't recall today --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- but I admitted that we had meetings.

23 Q. Do you recall how often you had meetings

24 with Mr. Madoff at his offices?

25 A. No, I can't recall that.




Page 332

1 Q. Was it a regular, was it on a regular basis?

2 A. Not at all.

3 Q. No?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So it definitely wasn't on a regular basis?

6 A. Not at all.

7 Q. Okay. But you can't recall any specific

8 meeting with Mr. Madoff that you had at his office?

9 A. A specific meeting was when we went back --

10 when I say we, me and Bienes and the wives went back

11 to try to see what he was going to do to open up an

12 account for us.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. That was it and that was the last one I

15 could recall.

16 Q. So you remember a meeting between you and

17 Mr. Bienes and your wives and Mr. Madoff?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Relating to opening an account?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was it in connection with the SEC

22 investigation?

23 A. It was at the termination.

24 Q. Oh, at the termination?

25 A. Yes.




Page 333

1 Q. Okay. So there was a meeting to discuss how

2 you would essentially?

3 A. Reinvest.

4 Q. Reinvest in BLMIS?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what do you remember about that meeting?

7 A. It was a disaster.

8 Q. Why?

9 A. We had to walk -- run out. Could I say that

10 Bienes had a big fight with Madoff?

11 Q. Yes, if that's what you remember. What do

12 you remember about the fight?

13 A. I have no idea what the fight was about, but

14 that's -- it was a crazy mind yelling and screaming

15 and that was it. Of course, he was going wasn't

16 going to take care of us at that point when he was

17 insulted.

18 Q. Okay. I mean, take care of you. So you

19 were there to reinvest, to talk about reinvesting in

20 BLMIS?

21 A. Yes. We had to all walk out.

22 Q. Okay. And what was Mr. Bienes screaming

23 about?

24 A. Oh, I don't recall.





Page 334

1 A. I don't even want to remember if I wanted

2 to.

3 Q. I understand. And at that point why did you

4 want to reinvest with BLMIS?

5 A. He was the only one I knew that could do

6 what he did before.

7 Q. Okay. And at that meeting, was any of the

8 remuneration we talked about earlier discussed?


10 Q. No? Okay.

11 So it seems like that meeting ended kind of

12 abruptly?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay, so you would agree.

15 Did you ever pick up the meeting again? Did

16 you ever have a continuation of the meeting at any

17 point in time?

18 A. I don't recall, no, I don't, no.

19 Q. So do you remember how it came to be that

20 you actually did reinvest in BLMIS?


22 Q. But it did happen obviously?

23 A. It did happen.

24 Q. Again, we are going to sort of switch gears.

25 So now we are fast forwarding to after the fraud was




Page 335

1 revealed.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. So after the fraud was revealed in December,

4 on December 11, 2008, did you seek to retain counsel?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you remember when?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No? Okay.

9 A. But I did.

10 Q. The counsel that you retained, was it

11 Mr. Woodfield?

12 A. I don't know if we retained him at that

13 time. I'm assuming, yes, again assuming.

14 Q. Did you have any other attorneys relating to

15 BLMIS or Madoff after December 11, 2008?

16 A. We may have had.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. I can't recall their names.

19 Q. You don't remember. Are there any documents

20 that might refresh your recollection on that?

21 A. Maybe.

22 Q. Which kind, which ones?

23 A. Documents talking or sending letters back

24 and forth to different attorneys.

25 Q. Attorneys, okay.




Page 336

1 After the fraud was revealed, did you reach

2 out to Ike Sorkin at all?



5 A. No.

6 Q. And sitting here today, you don't remember

7 exactly when you retained an attorney after the fraud

8 was revealed?

9 A. No. It had to be soon after.

10 Q. Why do you think soon after?

11 A. Well, here we are.

12 Q. Right. Okay.

13 A. Bankrupt.

14 Q. After Mr. Madoff confessed, did the SEC

15 contact you?

16 A. In 2008, at that time.

17 Q. Yes. So December 11, 2008 was when the

18 fraud was revealed. Do you remember the SEC reaching

19 out to you after that time?

20 A. I'm sure they did.

21 Q. After the fraud was revealed, did you expect

22 that the Trustee would file a lawsuit against you or

23 any of your entities?


25 Q. At what point did you think the Trustee was




Page 337

1 going to bring a lawsuit against you?

2 A. When they appointed Lee Richards I think it

3 was.

4 Q. When they appointed the initial --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- the initial Trustee?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And why was it at that point in time there

9 might be a lawsuit against you by the Trustee?

10 A. By appointing lawyers of their choosing.

11 Q. At some point in time after the fraud was

12 revealed you were sued by several plaintiffs, right,

13 in connection with BLMIS?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Those other lawsuits we talked about before?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember when the first of those was?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Let me ask you this. At the time, so in

20 December 2008, what documents did you have, if any,

21 relating to BLMIS?

22 A. They were all in the folder in the office.

23 Q. Whose office?

24 A. A & B's office.

25 Q. In 2008, though, did A & B have an office




Page 338

1 still?

2 A. I believe so.

3 Q. In 2008?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. That's where Lola worked. She had an

7 office.

8 Q. So A & B closed in 1992, '93, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so in 2008, so we are fast forwarding?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What, eight, 16 years?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that time did A & B have an office?

15 A. I'm assuming, yes.

16 MS. ZUNNO: Let's just take a quick break,

17 if that's okay.

18 MR. WOODFIELD: Sure.

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:52 a.m.

20 (A recess was taken.)


22 record. The time is 10:58 a.m.

23 Q. Mr. Avellino, you said you wanted to correct

24 something?

25 A. Yes.




Page 339

1 Q. Go ahead.

2 A. My previous answer, I was just reminded, I

3 had no office.

4 Q. That's what I thought. In 2008 you had no

5 office?

6 A. I saw your face. I could see it.

7 Q. I appreciate it. I won't do that anymore.

8 A. Gary said, "What are you talking about? You

9 didn't have an office." There goes my memory again.

10 Q. I appreciate your clarifying, and we have no

11 further questions, and we appreciate your time today.

12 MR. WOODFIELD: No questions. Thank you.

13 MS. ZUNNO: Thank you very much,

14 Mr. Avellino.

15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: That concludes this

16 deposition. The time is 10:59 a.m.

17 (At 10:59 a.m. the deposition was

18 concluded.)

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




Page 340

1 C E R T I F I C A T E O F O A T H

2 - - -

3 STATE OF FLORIDA

4 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH

5

6 I, RICHARD GREENSPAN, CM, FAPR, Notary

7 Public, State of Florida, certify that FRANK JOSEPH

8 AVELLINO personally appeared before me on

9 November 20, 2019 and was duly sworn.

10 Signed November 22, 2019.

11

12

13 ______________________________________

14 RICHARD GREENSPAN, CM, FAPR

15 NOTARY PUBLIC - STATE OF FLORIDA

16 My Commission #GG 181757

17 Expires: March 12, 2022

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




Page 341

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2 - - -

3 STATE OF FLORIDA

4 COUNTY OF PALM BEACH

5

6 I, RICHARD GREENSPAN, CM, FAPR, certify that I

7 was authorized to and did stenographically report the

8 deposition of FRANK JOSEPH AVELLINO, pages 261

9 through 339; that a review of the transcript was

10 requested; and that the transcript is a true record

11 of my stenographic notes.

12

13 I further certify that I am not a relative,

14 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,

15 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the

16 parties' attorneys or counsel connected with the

17 action, nor am I financially interested in the

18 action.

19 Dated November 22, 2019.

20

21

22 ______________________________________

23 RICHARD GREENSPAN, CM, FAPR

24

25




Page 342

1 ERRATA SHEET

2 DO NOT WRITE ON THE TRANSCRIPT, ENTER CHANGES ON THIS PAGE

3 In Re: Picard v. Avellino Frank Joseph Avellino - Volume 2

4 November 20, 2019

5 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON

6 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

7 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

8 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

9 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

10 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

11 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

12 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

13 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

14 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

15 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

16 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

17 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

18 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

19 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

20 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

21 _____ _____ ______________________________ ______

22 Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I haveread my deposition transcript, and it is true and

23 correct subject to any changes in form or substanceentered here.

24_____ ___________________________

25 DATE FRANK JOSEPH AVELLINO




Page 343

1 November 22, 2019

2 Frank Joseph Avellinoc/o Gary Woodfield, Esq.

3 Haile Shaw & Pfaffenberger249 Royal Palm Way, Suite 301A

4 Palm Beach, Florida 33480

5 In Re: Picard v. Avellino Deposition taken on 11/21/2019

6 U.S. Legal Support Job No. 2028166

7 The transcript of the above-referenced proceeding hasbeen prepared and is being provided to your office

8 for review by the witness.

9 We respectfully request that the witness completetheir review within a reasonable amount of time and

10 return the errata sheet to our office.

11 Sincerely,

12

13 ___________________________Richard Greenspan, CM, FAPR

14

15 CC via transcript:

16 Kathryn Zunno, Esq.

17 Gary Woodfield, Esq.

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25






Page 1

Aa.m261:21,21 264:5 316:1

316:4 338:19,22339:16,17

above-referenced343:7abruptly334:12absolute322:20account267:9 277:5 283:12,12

283:14,18 284:19,20304:25 305:9,11311:7,9,23 312:1,10330:4 332:12,19

accountant312:20accounting265:21accounts269:11,13 270:18,24

271:1,5,12,12,13272:21 275:24 276:5276:12,15,22 278:18279:2 282:15,23283:4,8 284:3,5,8,13284:13,25 285:2,6,8,9285:11 286:9,13287:14 289:1,5,10303:9,25 304:3,5,5,9304:10,18,21 305:18306:23,24 307:5309:20,24,24 311:6312:6,9,11,16 314:5327:23 328:8 329:4,5

accurate265:14action270:12 341:17,18addition322:15additional

270:16 273:4,16address265:6,7 310:17adjustment274:17,20 294:17,21

294:24adjustments270:16 273:3,4,9,15

274:16,19,23 276:21315:3,5

administration322:12administrative282:10Admission270:4admissions273:3admit270:11,16 331:13admits331:15,16admitted331:22Adv261:5,14advisory282:10agree275:12 293:17 298:1

301:13 317:10 334:14ahead339:1al261:16alive287:13Alpern265:13,17 266:1,6amount270:13 272:16 277:24

278:3,4,4,7,8 280:8289:13 298:10 314:16343:9

amounts

272:22 275:9 277:21278:21 279:12 322:17323:2

and/or282:11annualized268:12,15annually268:5 272:4,8answer270:15 283:9 327:25

328:10,13 339:2anybody286:20anymore339:7apartment308:20,21,23APPEARANCES262:1appeared340:8appears301:10appoint318:16appointed320:22 337:2,4appointing337:10appreciate288:22 339:7,10,11approx306:7approximately297:3 307:12article318:12 321:21ascertain287:13ascertained286:17aside269:25 281:25 284:24

288:23 289:8 292:8

301:24 304:16 307:3307:4,23 309:13312:18 319:3 323:10328:11

asked299:18asking304:17asks282:9assistance297:14associated267:14 269:11,14Associates269:9,9,10,17assume287:8 312:3 319:1assuming269:15 275:20 298:17

321:1 335:13,13338:15

assumption321:1attended331:15,17attorney317:17,18 321:2 336:7

341:14attorneys330:16 331:7 335:14

335:24,25 341:16August316:19 317:2,13authority323:1authorized341:7Avellino261:16,18 262:24

263:7 264:7,13 265:9266:2 269:5 282:19285:3,10 289:21302:4 308:3 310:15310:21 316:9,16




Page 2

317:8 328:6,16338:23 339:14 340:8341:8 342:3,3,25343:2,5

Avellino's281:21 326:1Avenue308:25aware267:15 283:19 290:23

328:22

BB262:9 266:21 270:14

270:19 271:6,18272:21,23 273:24275:2,4,6,9,13 276:1278:5,6 279:1,4,6,18282:16,24 283:20284:8,15,16 285:14288:24,25 289:4,9,14291:16 294:14 297:4303:13 309:21 310:6310:8 320:17 323:12337:25 338:8,14

B's337:24back264:3 266:24 267:20

267:23 270:1,22280:11 284:5,7 289:2293:16 296:20 297:1301:8,17 316:3 318:3320:20 327:18 332:9332:10 335:23 338:21

BAKER262:3balance305:19,20 306:1 311:7Bankrupt336:13BANKRUPTCY261:1base

296:21 304:2,4 305:18based270:13 272:19,20,22

278:13 289:13basically276:17 315:1,2,3,4basis332:1,5Bates269:7 292:21 293:23

308:4 316:10,22318:11 321:19 322:11

Beach261:22 262:18 319:13

319:23 320:12 340:4341:4 343:4

began326:9behalf262:2,14 327:7 328:7believe269:13 278:20 279:8

279:20 281:11 283:3283:6,22,23,24,25285:3 287:15 288:19293:3 305:17 338:2

benefit284:1 311:8 315:8Bernard261:6,10,13,14 318:17

320:21Bernie272:23 279:2,24 284:5

289:14 306:23,24313:9 318:5,20

best267:9,11 289:12 298:8

321:7,10better320:25Bienes265:3,10 283:12,18,19

284:18 285:3,9,13287:20,22 309:20324:16,17,21,24

326:17 327:4,8,13330:1 331:16 332:10332:17 333:10,22

Bienes'325:6,13 326:9big319:1 333:10bit264:22 271:9 297:9BLM271:1 306:5,12,14,21

306:24 307:8 311:5312:5,10 313:3

BLMIS266:17,21 267:9,12,18

269:23 270:13,14,19270:24 271:6 272:10273:25 278:5,25279:13 280:19 282:12282:17,18,24 283:19284:14,16,19 285:2285:14,17,22,25286:9,13,23 287:16288:6,25 289:5290:25 294:1,13,14296:2 298:11 300:15303:8,14,25 304:17304:17 305:9 306:1307:5,21 309:8 310:5310:8 311:23 312:9312:21 322:5 323:22327:23 328:8,17329:3 330:20 331:8333:4,20 334:4,20335:15 337:13,21

BLMIS'268:21 293:24 302:14

331:16,17blocks319:21,22,22borrow322:17 323:1bottom268:12 290:11 300:17

300:18 321:21

brackets298:3,5break271:9 338:16bring301:17 337:1brokers323:16,17,19Buongiorno331:1business320:1,4,6,16butchering281:8buying272:13,15 273:22

CC264:1 340:1,1 341:1,1c/o343:2calcs307:18calculations306:4,9,17,20 307:20called274:1capacity324:25 325:5,15capital313:22,22,24,24 314:1

314:3,8,10,11,25care333:16,18case324:12 325:2,4,16,23cash270:13 312:22 313:1,2

313:6Cavazni318:16CC343:15certain




Page 3

294:22certify340:7 341:6,13cetera275:21 313:[email protected]:10change280:8 342:5changed280:8,9changes342:2,23changing321:16characterize274:13check313:10,12 315:9checked277:23 294:8checking276:25checks312:22 313:2,7,8children324:18choice323:4,5choosing337:10chose277:21CHRISTOPHER262:9claims328:7,9,17,25clarifying339:10clear271:4client279:7clients270:14,19 271:6

272:23 273:25 275:10275:13 278:5 279:1279:19 282:16,24288:24 289:4,14

clients'289:10closed271:18 275:4,6 276:1

278:6 279:4 284:16285:14 288:25 289:14303:14 309:21 310:6310:8 320:17 323:13338:8

CM261:24 340:6,14 341:6

341:23 343:13co-executor320:22 321:8co-trustee320:22 321:8column299:3columns301:11come275:23 311:19 321:15

327:6comes296:20comfortable322:25coming287:4commission273:24 274:1,2,14

340:16commissions282:11,13communicate330:20communicated330:8,17 331:8communications330:11 331:4company

265:3compensate330:3complete274:7 343:9computation295:11concerned323:25concluded339:18concludes339:15conditions327:16conferred322:16confessed336:14confirm268:4connected341:16connection283:9,20 317:19 324:8

326:24 327:23 332:21337:13

consider266:12 273:23 318:21

319:4consideration270:18 282:15,23

328:9considered318:23considering321:13 323:21Consolidated261:7,12contact336:15context299:7 322:3continuation334:16

continue275:19 328:3,14continued264:9,11Continuously275:20controlled267:6conversations278:12 280:12 285:13

285:16 291:14copy307:18CORPORATION261:3correct270:23 284:3 338:23

342:23correction294:16correspond301:12corresponded294:2counsel335:4,10 341:14,16COUNTY340:4 341:4couple298:24 319:21 323:11course296:19 333:15court261:1 328:15cover286:22CPA315:7crazy333:14created271:11 272:12 278:20

278:25,25 322:13credits272:12




Page 4

criminal290:24CROSS263:5Crupi331:1current268:13 311:10 321:5currently324:11 325:23

DD264:1 314:5Dad310:20date264:4 270:23 292:16

293:17 302:8 311:15316:18 317:2 342:25

Dated341:19dates299:4,7daughter320:7Dear293:19 302:10debits272:12Debtor261:11December268:11 276:18 302:9

303:3,15 311:22327:21 330:12 335:3335:4,15 336:17337:20

decided313:9declare342:22defendant261:8 282:12defendant's

282:15,23 283:8331:13

defendants262:14 270:3,12 283:4

324:12,15 325:22defendants'270:18definitely275:15 317:25 332:5definition319:1denied329:15,16depending279:24 315:18depends315:22deposition261:18 328:3,14

339:16,17 341:8342:22 343:5

derived282:18 285:22,25describe267:6 273:19 274:15

274:17,19 320:8described320:16DESCRIPTION263:12detail274:20details281:8determine322:21Diane324:16,17,24 325:4,13

326:9 327:7,14,18difference295:11different264:24 317:9 325:21

335:24DiPascal

281:7DiPascali280:22 281:6,7 287:9

293:20 294:5,6302:17 330:25

DiPascali's290:24direct263:5 264:11 269:16

279:2 327:25directed272:21directing328:10,12directly270:14,19 278:6

282:16,24 289:5313:2

disaster333:7discretion274:6,7 277:18 322:21discuss320:15 333:1discussed334:8dissolve311:10dissolved311:20distribution294:17,22,24 322:13DISTRICT261:1diversifying323:25dividends270:17 273:17,18,20

273:22 313:23,25document263:18 268:24 269:6

281:20,20,23 289:22289:23 290:3,9,21291:5,9 292:8,12,21293:12,24 299:1,8,13

301:8,11,13,21 302:8302:14 304:16 307:3307:4,23 308:4,6,9310:12,13,15 311:15316:11 319:3 321:4331:14

documents296:1 335:19,23

337:20doing288:17 309:7Donald's311:8drop276:4due305:19,20 306:1duly264:8 340:9duties322:15duty327:9,10

EE264:1,1 340:1,1 341:1

341:1earlier265:10 334:8Ed291:24Eddie300:22effect278:10,23 295:10eight338:12either300:16 305:25 330:13employee341:14,15employees290:25 330:21 331:8ended




Page 5

334:11enemies266:13enemy319:6ENTER342:2entered342:23entirely311:10,20entities267:14 328:7 336:23entity267:5errata342:1 343:10Esq262:7,9,11,20 343:2,16

343:17essentially277:18 284:14 333:2estate317:21 322:13 324:20

325:6,10,11estimate312:15et261:16 275:21 313:23eventually285:10exact278:3,3exactly270:25 336:7EXAMINATION264:11examined264:9executing317:12executor318:5 323:6executors318:13,17 321:21

322:9,14Exhibit263:13,14,15,16,17,18

263:19,20 267:25268:10,25 269:2,3270:1,3 281:24 282:1282:4 288:5 289:19289:22 292:10,13301:9,11,13,18,23302:1,2,5 307:25308:1,4 309:14,16310:12 316:6,7,10

exhibits263:12 268:9 288:2existence275:2expect336:21expected268:19,22 269:19experience279:24 312:9Expires340:17explain270:20extent296:20extra312:6

FF340:1,1 341:1F&M269:9,9,10,17face339:6factors284:21familiar269:1family285:3,4,9,10 309:20

325:18

FAPR261:24 340:6,14 341:6

341:23 343:13fast334:25 338:10favor295:12February291:10feel288:15fees282:9,10,10,10,11,11

282:12,13 324:8,11324:24 325:8,13,24326:1,9,23 327:3,7,16329:25 330:4

felt274:2fight333:10,12,13figure288:12figured320:7,25file336:22filed328:7files293:24 302:14financial320:6financially341:17fine328:5firm326:11first269:17 281:22 282:5

282:21 292:18 306:8312:4 337:17

five319:22

flip288:15Florida261:22 262:18 340:3,7

340:15 341:3 343:4focus282:8focusing282:21folder337:22following322:15follows264:10forgive281:7form295:6 304:25 342:23former270:13 271:6 272:23

273:24 275:9,13278:5 279:1,18282:16,24 283:20288:24 289:4,9,13290:25 291:16 297:4330:20 331:8

forth335:24forwarding334:25 338:10four310:25 311:1 319:22fourth295:22Frank261:16,18 263:7 264:7

281:21 290:24 293:19294:2,6,10,12 302:10316:16 317:8 340:7341:8 342:3,25 343:2

Franks293:22fraud276:18 312:1 327:21




Page 6

328:19 330:11,17,21331:5,9 334:25 335:3336:1,7,18,21 337:11

free288:15friend318:17,21,22,24,24

319:1,4 320:6friends266:12front268:9 293:16Fund328:23 329:1,9funds266:21 311:8further300:3 339:11 341:13future268:22

GG264:1 300:6,10gain314:25gains270:17 273:16,17,19

277:8 313:17,22,24314:1,3,8,11,11315:13,15

GALLAGHER262:9Gary262:20 339:8 343:2,17gears309:18 324:6 327:20

329:18 334:24general320:18generally296:8 303:13 318:4getting279:16 298:11 300:14

315:8

GG340:16give274:8given268:8 277:1,25 303:16

312:21gives313:6giving277:24 284:15 294:13

322:25Glantz264:16 265:2,12,17

266:2,7,9,15,20 267:3291:25 292:1 300:10300:11,13,22,23

go266:23 267:22 269:18

270:1,7 277:4 285:20289:2 293:7,16295:21 296:5 298:13300:3 318:3 319:23321:19 339:1

goes298:23 339:9going267:20,25 268:24,25

270:1,2,7,8,22 278:15280:11 281:23,24282:8,19 288:1 292:9292:12 296:10 301:25307:24 315:25 316:5318:13 320:11,20327:24 331:13 332:11333:15,16 334:24337:1

Good264:13,14gosh317:14great297:13Greenspan261:24 340:6,14 341:6

341:23 343:13GRIFFIN262:11Grosvenor275:20 276:3,5,6 283:5

284:2,10,12,25 288:6304:11 305:6 311:9311:10,20,23 312:1

GROV290:12guess273:18 280:12,18

300:18 326:10,12,13326:15

[email protected]:21

HH261:12 262:2 340:1Haile262:15 343:3hand292:12handed291:5handing282:3 289:21 308:3

316:9handwriting288:16 290:8 293:11

295:19,22,23 296:2302:6,7,20 308:8

happen265:5 285:17,18

334:22,23happened275:13 303:22happening299:11,12,15heading301:2held328:8,19help

316:19 326:6helps302:14hereunder322:14Hi310:20higher314:2history276:14hold328:2,13home319:16,21,23 328:18hope302:22HOSTETLER262:3house319:12 320:12

Iidea272:16 278:4 286:8,12

296:13 297:24 299:12300:8 301:5 305:23305:24 312:14 318:2333:13 336:24

IDENT263:12identification269:4 282:2 289:20

292:11 302:3 308:2309:17 316:8

Identify282:9Ike336:2incentive282:11include330:25income312:24 313:12,13




Page 7

314:2,12,13,14,22315:12,12,15,21

INDEX263:2indicate298:6indicated268:21 294:22individual324:24 325:5individually322:19individuals267:15,17 292:3information269:6,23 291:24 294:8

294:10,12 315:24initial337:4,6initially280:2 299:20initials300:20 301:12insulted333:17insurance328:18interacted281:3interest284:2,4,18 314:1,2

315:19interested341:17interests331:12interrogatories281:22 282:6interrogatory282:9,22 285:21intro322:11invest266:21 310:7invested

270:14,19investigation271:2,7 272:25 329:19

330:1 332:22investing282:16,24 323:22investment261:6,13 322:12investments266:16 267:12,18

275:12 303:14 322:5323:15,18 324:1

INVESTOR261:3investors283:20 284:15 291:16

294:14 297:4involved280:20 324:19Irving261:12 262:2

JJ261:16 316:16James283:11,18 284:22,24JL300:20Job261:25 343:6Joe300:23Joel291:25Joseph261:18 263:7 264:7

340:7 341:8 342:3,25343:2

jump264:15

KKathryn262:7 263:9 343:16

kind315:5 334:11 335:22KJA276:8 283:5knew278:7 286:17,22

287:10,23 334:5know265:16,18 266:5,8

267:22 268:8 273:11276:20 278:3,15280:9 281:3,6,8,13283:16 286:2,16,16287:11,15 288:1,16288:18 289:1,4,12,23290:22 291:23 292:14293:5 295:1,15,16297:11,22 300:1302:10 303:19 304:5304:20 305:5 306:9306:12,25 309:19310:4,9,14 312:19,21315:11 317:11 319:7319:15 321:2 325:10326:3,16 328:6329:13,20 330:16331:7,11,18 335:12

knowing286:20knowledge267:10,11 287:17

298:9 305:11 309:10321:7,10 325:22

known281:11Krass317:17 320:25KRASS00009316:[email protected]:8

LL261:6,10,13,14 262:11

law322:16lawsuit336:22 337:1,9lawsuits337:15lawyer317:24 318:23lawyers337:10leave322:6Lee337:2left-hand300:4legal261:25 319:2 324:8,11

324:24 325:8,13,23326:1,9,23 327:3,7329:25 330:4 343:6

let's271:9 284:24 285:20

286:11 293:7,16295:18 296:5,17298:13 299:17 300:3300:17 302:19,22303:11 306:8 307:3307:17 310:5,12313:7 316:18 318:3318:11 322:8 327:20338:16

letter263:16,17,19 291:24

293:4 302:16,22310:21

letters335:23Levey264:17 265:2,13,17

266:2,7,9,16,20 267:3291:25 300:23

Linda318:16line




Page 8

268:18,21 269:18282:21 295:10 296:21297:20 298:13 304:8305:17 306:4,17307:17 310:24 312:4312:7,7 342:5

lines269:18 298:14,24Liquidation261:6,13list279:1,6,9,13 305:6listed304:11little264:22 270:5 271:9

297:9 300:3 315:24LLC261:7,13LLP262:3loans322:17 323:1Lola338:6long275:19 315:6long-term315:16,17,19,20longer321:8look268:10 277:8 281:18

287:11 288:10 289:23290:11 292:13 295:18299:17 300:17 301:8308:11 310:12,13316:18 318:11 322:8326:5

looked267:21 277:5 288:3

296:2 321:17looking273:6 277:12 288:22

296:9 303:2 306:16

320:5looks269:1 290:15 298:18

299:10 300:22 307:9309:2 316:21 317:9,9

losses270:17 273:16,17,20

277:9 313:22,24327:23 328:18

Love310:20lower314:1 315:20

MM262:7 300:6MA290:12Madoff261:6,10,13,14 271:11

272:10 274:6,7,16,22275:10,17 276:12,21278:12,25 280:12,19281:10 284:15 286:25287:6 291:6,8,11,14297:1 306:2 318:5,17319:4,8,12 320:21321:7 322:4,22 323:1323:8,12,16,23328:22,25 329:8,20329:24 330:8,17331:15,17,24 332:8332:17 333:10 335:15336:14

Madoff's277:18 279:24 284:5

306:23,24MADTSS01124087308:5MADTSS01124224292:21making279:25 304:20management

267:21 268:11 282:9March340:17mark268:25 281:24 301:25

309:14 316:5marked267:24 269:3,7 282:1,3

289:19,22 292:10,12301:9 302:2 308:1,4309:16 316:7,10331:12

material272:1math297:13 299:11,12matter324:9 326:24 327:9,10Mayfair276:6 283:5 284:3,10

284:12,19,25 304:12304:12 305:6,7

mean273:10 284:6 290:3,18

294:25 295:14 296:10296:13,24 297:17301:16 302:25 304:14307:14 314:3,15322:4,24 323:5 324:4333:18

meaning298:16means273:11 286:1,2 290:22

295:2 298:17 303:20304:21 319:7

meant268:14 304:15meeting291:5,8 332:8,9,16

333:1,6 334:7,11,15334:16

meetings291:11 331:15,17,19

331:19,22,23

members325:19memories301:17memory266:18 274:1 339:9Mendelow264:16 266:10,16,20

267:4 291:25 300:10300:11,13,23

mentioned266:25 282:4 283:5

287:9 329:20MF00092762269:7Michael324:20 325:6 327:13million278:9,11,13,22 279:17

280:5 284:7 297:3,15297:15 299:20 307:12307:14

mind296:21 303:7 333:14minus298:7,8MISC300:4money272:22 273:24 294:22

297:1 310:7 320:25322:17 323:2,3,12

money-wise278:21,21moneys272:20month277:1monthly280:8morning264:13,14move297:8moved




Page 9

265:7mucking314:18

NN264:1name281:8 292:24,25 293:2

308:12 310:17 317:23named294:1,6names279:7 304:11 317:15

335:18Nancy262:24necessary304:9,18,20 305:2need327:18net295:10 314:13,14,16never277:23 319:6 321:17new261:1 262:5,5 281:20

308:19,20,21 321:6Notary340:6,15note304:2noted316:1notes341:11notices326:10November261:20 264:4 286:11

340:9,10 341:19342:4 343:1

number269:10 270:7,11 273:6

282:8 290:20 293:23

296:25 297:6,17298:2 308:14,16,18308:19 316:10,23318:12 322:9,10,16

numbered269:7 292:21 321:19

322:11numbers290:3 295:3 296:9,13

298:1 300:25 301:5301:10,12,17

OO264:1 340:1,1object327:24obviously287:1 334:22occurred315:14offhand272:18office265:4,6,24 266:3 332:8

337:22,23,24,25338:7,14 339:3,5,9343:7,10

offices264:20,24 265:1,20

331:16,17,24oh266:24 306:19 314:3

317:14 332:24 333:24okay265:21 266:14,23,23

267:24 268:17,17270:10 271:24 272:7273:2,12 274:3,5276:9,20 277:17278:8,11,24 279:6,15280:1,7,23 284:9285:9 286:2,11,15287:11,20 288:1,9289:18 291:7,23

292:7,16 293:22,25296:5,7 297:2,16,19298:8,13,19 299:10300:17 301:20 302:7303:18 304:8 305:5306:4 307:8,17309:13 311:3 312:18314:18 315:23,23,24316:20,24 317:1,15319:3,25 320:9321:18,18 322:8324:9,20 326:16327:6,14,15,15,20328:21 329:3 331:11331:21 332:7,13333:1,18,22 334:7,10334:14 335:2,8,17,25336:12 338:5,17

once265:5 320:1ones276:10 335:22open289:4 332:11opened271:6 276:1,15 279:2

289:1opening332:19ordinary315:12,12,15,17owed330:5owned285:2

PP264:1 300:6page269:6 270:2 282:6

290:12 292:17,18293:9,9 295:18,22296:6,10,10 300:18316:22,22 317:16

318:11 321:19 322:11342:2,5

pages295:24 341:8paid274:25 282:12,13

287:14 329:8Palm261:21,22 262:16,18

319:13,23 320:12340:4 341:4 343:3,4

paper278:18 280:3 299:23

299:24Paragon's311:6paragraphs310:25 311:1parenthesis306:6Park308:25part265:1,2 284:7,8,19particular277:12 312:8parties341:14parties'341:16Partners304:12Partners'288:6passed326:17,22 327:4pay313:9 314:17 327:18

329:24paying324:11,23 325:8,12,23

326:1,9,23 327:3,7,16penalties342:22Pension




Page 10

304:13 305:7people266:20 278:19,20

284:5 286:22 296:25percent269:19 280:4,5 290:16

290:20 297:15,17299:23

percentage279:15,17,21 280:1

299:19 314:20,24315:18

percentages278:23performance271:22 272:13 282:10

309:24period271:15,17 275:3,16

280:11 291:9 299:11307:9 317:13 320:18

perjury342:22person291:20personal266:5 267:18 271:12

271:12,13personally310:7 340:8Pfaffenberger262:15 343:3phone308:14Picard261:12 262:2 342:3

343:5pick334:15picked313:13piece280:3 299:22,24place321:5

Plaintiff261:4,15plaintiffs337:12Plan304:13 305:7planning309:5,8,11 317:21played289:9Plaza262:4please281:25 304:8 307:18

326:12,15plus278:9,11,13 279:17

280:5 297:3 299:20point272:25 277:23,25

294:2 306:2 311:19317:24 318:4 319:4319:12 320:21 321:12326:8,18 333:16334:3,17 336:25337:8,11

points271:24policies328:18Portfolio267:21 268:11portion329:24position328:6possibly265:13 300:11post-'92275:16power322:22powers321:22 322:4,10,15practically

311:5 312:5,10practices265:20,22prepared343:7Present262:23previous339:2previously264:8 267:24 271:23

301:9Printed292:25prior315:7Pro261:5,14probably276:6 278:17 284:22

311:6 321:16proceeding343:7process277:4,11 304:24profitable310:2,3promised327:13PROTECTION261:3provide266:20 272:10 276:22

277:19provided276:12,14,25 285:5

286:9 307:21,22343:7

providing286:23 322:21Public340:7,15pull267:23,23purported

327:22 328:17purpose322:19pursue328:15put269:25 281:25 284:24

288:4,22 292:7 297:4301:24 307:3,23309:13 312:18 323:5323:10 328:11

putting304:16 319:3

Qquarterly271:23 272:4,8question270:20 309:7 313:4questions328:1 339:11,12quick267:20 338:16quickly288:2

RR264:1 340:1 341:1Rachel320:7rate268:7 269:19 314:1,2

314:10,10,11,20,24315:19,20,20

rates268:19 311:4 312:4,10

312:15 314:9reach336:1reaching336:18read270:8,8 302:7,19,22

318:13 321:24 322:10




Page 11

342:22reads270:11 293:19 294:8real267:20really277:2 283:18 295:1reason293:3 320:4,24 342:5reasonable343:9reasons319:2 320:1recall265:19 266:22 267:16

267:19 268:16,20269:24 271:14,17272:5,9 273:14274:12 276:11,23277:2 278:1,9,14,22278:24 279:11 280:3280:10,17,24 281:2281:11,17 283:10,14283:25 285:13,15,19286:1,10,14,20287:19,25 288:21289:11 290:5 291:1,3291:12,22 292:6,15293:6 294:4,11,15295:1,9,17 296:4,12297:18 298:12 299:7299:9,25 300:16301:19 303:2,12304:15,19,22 305:14305:25 306:3 307:2,7307:16,22 309:7,9,12310:1,2,3,9,16 311:14311:21 312:12,17315:10 317:14 318:7318:10 320:13,14,19321:10 322:7,8,23323:17,18,20,24325:25 326:2,7,22327:17 328:20 329:12330:2,6,9,13,19,22

331:3,10,20,23,25332:7,15 333:24334:9,18,21 335:18336:3

receive270:23 271:5,10,15,21

272:3 285:7 296:1305:12 327:22

received268:8 270:12 273:22

278:20 283:14 285:11326:10

receives284:1receiving268:18 269:22 292:4

295:6recess316:2 338:20recognition321:16recognize269:5,8,11 289:24,25

290:1,8 292:14,17,22293:11 295:23 302:4308:5,8,16 310:14,15316:11 317:15,23

recollection288:11 301:21 311:16

335:20record264:4 271:4 292:20

316:1,4 328:6 338:22341:10

RECROSS263:5REDIRECT263:5refer273:13 305:22 307:5reference293:20 307:1 309:11referenced279:15 305:2 325:18referencing

294:21 297:22 300:9referral282:11referred318:21referring304:6 305:19 306:10

306:13 314:19 331:14refers273:3refresh335:20refreshes288:11refunds327:22 328:8Regarding324:8 325:1,2REGINA262:11regular271:22 332:1,1,5reinvest333:3,4,19 334:4,20reinvested272:23 273:25 275:10

278:5 279:12,18288:24 289:14

reinvesting283:21 284:16 291:16

294:14 333:19related271:5 281:1,14 290:19

291:24 292:3 294:12295:3 299:11,19300:13 301:18 303:25305:3 322:5 327:22328:17 329:3

relating264:16 320:16 332:19

335:14 337:21relation319:15relationship265:16 266:6 319:5

relative341:13,15relevant328:9remember265:11 266:23 268:1

268:17 269:22 276:4276:10,24,24 279:10279:21 280:1,15281:16 289:5 291:8291:10,18,20 294:9294:19 295:6 298:21298:22 299:16,22300:12 303:2 304:16305:4,15 307:20309:23 310:6,10311:11 317:12 318:4319:19,20 320:2,11320:20 321:12 322:1322:21 323:21 326:6326:8,20 329:4 330:7330:10,14 331:4,19332:16 333:6,11,12333:25 334:1,19335:6,19 336:4,6,18337:17

remembered299:19remind284:21reminded339:2remove321:13remuneration270:12,24 271:5,10,16

271:21 272:3,11,17273:13,23 274:8,11274:14,25 275:8,17275:22 276:12,22277:1,13,19,24278:12,16 280:20,21281:1,9,14 283:1,15283:19 284:2,14285:5,7,11,14,17




Page 12

286:5,8,18,23 287:4287:14,18,23 288:14288:19 289:12 291:15292:4 294:13 295:7,7298:11 299:20 300:14304:23,24 305:3,12312:22 313:3,10315:8,14 334:8

Renee318:1rented265:1,1report268:11,18 341:7reported261:24 313:20reporting272:1,2Reports267:21represent288:19 301:6representation329:25representative325:6represented284:14 286:4 287:17

288:13 315:14representing329:20represents293:24request270:8 273:2 331:13

343:9requested341:10Requests270:4resolve328:15respect273:17 289:1,9 303:8respectfully

343:9response270:8,15,21,23 273:2

282:14 285:21responses263:14 270:4 281:21

282:5,22resumed264:8retain335:4retained335:10,12 336:7return268:8,12,15,19 269:19

289:16 311:4 312:5343:10

returns268:21 312:15,25

313:21revealed312:1 327:21 330:11

330:18,21 331:5,9335:1,3 336:1,8,18,21337:12

revelation276:17 328:19review341:9 343:8,9RG300:[email protected]:12Richard261:24 291:25 300:23

340:6,14 341:6,23343:13

Richards337:2right266:17 268:2,5 269:25

271:19 275:6,14276:19 277:9,17279:7 280:13 284:16284:19,24 287:1

289:6,21 292:7 296:5296:23 297:8 298:3298:25 300:24 302:4303:11,14,21 304:25305:17 307:10 308:3308:11 310:6,18311:25,25 312:2,22313:15 318:19,25319:13 323:6,10,13336:12 337:12 338:8

right-hand290:11 299:1rights322:15Rockefeller262:4role288:25 289:8 321:14Roller262:25roof311:8rough286:12roughly286:8Royal261:21 262:16 343:3ruling328:4rumination270:25run296:17 333:9

SS264:1 276:4S/317:7safe271:18saw339:6says

268:12 269:18 270:15273:3 274:1 285:21294:16 295:10 296:21302:10 304:8 306:7,8306:17,25 307:8,12307:17 309:4,5310:20 316:15 317:7318:14,16 322:10,12322:17

Schedule314:5screaming333:14,22SEC270:12 330:1 332:21

336:14,18second266:24 281:18 284:25

285:20 307:3 309:18316:22 324:6

Section322:9securities261:3,7,13 272:14,15

273:22see269:1,19 276:25

277:24 288:11 290:12292:15 293:7 298:14306:16,19,19 307:17308:11 309:4 311:8311:15 318:14 321:25332:11 339:6

seek335:4selling272:13,15 273:22send293:4 294:12 307:18sending294:10 335:23sense310:4 313:4sent271:1 278:17,19 293:5




Page 13

294:9 296:25sentence285:20 295:14 304:14separate265:20,20,21set280:2 281:22 282:5

284:22share265:4 285:10shared264:19,24 265:6,8,24sharing266:2Shaw262:15 343:3sheet278:18 342:1 343:10short306:5,5,25,25 307:6,8

315:6short-term315:16,17show268:1,24 269:1 281:19

281:23 288:2 301:10306:4,9,18,20

showing301:23shows295:11side290:11 299:1 300:4Siegel318:1signal277:13signature292:17,22 317:4,5Signed340:10significant303:7,15Sincerely343:11

single296:15SIPA261:6,12sister318:16 323:7sitting283:7 286:3,7,16 296:9

301:20 303:19 309:18312:14 315:7 322:24331:18 336:6

six269:18SM300:20SMB261:5,14socialize266:9 319:8sole322:20somebody317:23son310:22soon336:9,10sophisticated324:5Sorkin329:19,21 336:2Sorkin's329:25sorry268:9 276:3 294:5

316:12 326:14sort269:16 277:4,12 279:1

317:7 327:15 330:3334:24

SOUTHERN261:1space266:3speaking

280:16 291:20Special269:9,10specific286:3 332:7,9Specifically322:3spoke280:21,25 281:2,13

288:7 291:13spoken305:7St283:11,18 284:22,24stamped308:5start306:8started266:1 280:4,13 299:23

327:3,7starts311:4State340:3,7,15 341:3statement263:13,15 278:20

287:5,12statements277:5 282:18 285:23

285:25 286:18 288:7288:13

STATES261:1status329:13stenographic341:11stenographically261:24 341:7Steve267:3 291:25 300:22Steven317:17 320:24stop

282:19 302:25 304:4Strattham311:7street319:20streets319:19subject342:23submit328:17,25submitted329:14substance342:23Substantively261:7,12subtracted298:9,10sued325:15 337:12suggest327:25suggesting328:13Suite262:17 343:3summarize331:14summarized291:2Support261:25 343:6sure266:14 267:7 284:11

286:24 324:7 327:14336:20 338:18

switch324:6 327:20 329:18

334:24switching309:18sworn264:8 340:9




Page 14

TT340:1,1,1 341:1,1take268:10 281:18 288:10

289:23 292:13 297:14310:13 333:16,18338:16

taken316:2 338:20 343:5talk270:9 296:18 303:11

313:7 333:19talked270:4 278:2 283:11

286:9,21,25 287:20289:3 331:1 334:8337:15

talking275:8 277:3 279:18

283:1 286:5 287:24288:14,20 292:5295:8 297:2 300:15304:23 305:12 309:19313:10 314:6 329:19335:23 339:8

talks273:15tax312:25 313:20 314:19

314:24 315:8,20,20327:22

Telfran266:25 267:2,3,9tell264:22 268:7 274:23

280:25 291:4 293:23297:13 302:13 312:20331:18

telling313:15termination332:23,24terms

322:18,20Testament316:15testified264:9 291:4testimony290:24 329:22Thank339:12,13Thanks315:23thing264:15things312:21 314:19think264:19,20 265:12,19

266:24 268:9 275:22277:3,6 278:2,24279:22 284:11 286:4286:21,25 287:3,12287:13 288:21 290:13291:13 293:19,21297:6 298:20 299:3299:17 302:16,19305:2,4 310:5 312:6314:18 316:25 320:5320:24 321:6 322:5323:11 325:7 327:2329:15,16,17 331:1336:10,25 337:2

thinking299:24 311:10third295:22Thomas310:21 326:1thought275:3 286:12 297:3

339:4three266:19 267:5,15,17

276:11 304:10,11305:18 331:2

time

264:4,20 265:5,9 266:3266:19 270:22 271:15271:17 275:1,3,17277:25 280:10,11284:21,23 291:9,11294:3,9 295:9 299:11302:24 303:1,5,20,23304:7,17 306:2 307:9309:2 311:9,16,19316:1,4 317:13 318:4319:12 320:10,13,15320:18,19,21 321:12322:24 326:8,18,22330:7 331:12 334:17335:13 336:16,19337:8,11,19 338:14338:19,22 339:11,16343:9

timeframe264:25times264:20 271:22 298:17

320:11 323:11today283:7 286:3,7,16 296:9

301:20 303:19 309:19312:14 315:7 322:24331:18,20 336:6339:11

Todd262:25told275:23 290:19 302:19

321:2 329:21Tom310:20,21top292:24 310:17 316:15total305:18totally277:18 281:12touch304:2,4trades

270:16 273:4,16,19282:14,22 283:8284:13 286:18 304:9304:18,21 305:2330:4

trading320:6transaction272:11 286:4transactions271:11 272:5,8 275:23

276:25 277:13 278:17282:17 285:6,22,24287:4,17 288:13,18304:25 313:15,18315:9,13

transcript341:9,10 342:2,22

343:7,15transfer311:6treated312:24trial290:24true341:10 342:22trust322:13 325:18trustee261:12 262:2 263:13

263:14,15,16,17,18263:19,20 267:25268:10,25 269:2,3270:1,3 281:24 282:1282:4 288:5 289:19289:22 292:10,13301:9,11,13,18,23302:1,2,5 307:24308:1,4 309:14,16310:12 316:5,7,10318:8 336:22,25337:6,9

Trustee's281:22 282:5




Page 15

trustees318:13,18 321:22

322:10,14trusts324:18try332:11trying264:23 272:2 274:21

314:7 320:17turn270:2 282:6 293:9

316:21 318:11twice320:1two298:14typed293:16types273:18

UU.S261:25 343:6Uh-hum274:18 284:17 293:10

294:23 306:15 322:2323:14

underlined304:10 306:6underneath297:20understand272:3 284:11 287:3

314:7 334:3understanding264:23 268:14 274:10

277:17 279:16 280:7325:12

understood266:14,15UNITED261:1universe

286:22upper308:11use273:12 281:19 298:5

Vv261:15 342:3 343:5values282:17 285:21,24varied279:22various271:24 328:7vary279:23Ventures304:12,13 305:7version293:17versus315:9Victims328:23 329:1,8video264:3 316:1,3 338:21Videographer262:25 264:3 315:25

316:3 338:19,21339:15

Videotaped261:19Volume261:18 342:3vs261:5

Wwalk333:9,21want264:15 268:25 270:9

286:21 288:10 296:17301:9 310:24 328:2

328:15 334:1,4wanted312:7 315:23 317:10

321:24 334:1 338:23wasn't274:1,4 324:4,4 332:5

333:15way261:21 262:16 269:12

270:16 273:4,15,21276:20 281:14 293:23305:3 308:22 313:14314:19 325:21 327:12343:3

went288:16 319:24 320:15

332:9,10weren't266:13whatsoever286:14 296:14 301:19

309:10wife324:13 326:23wills317:21 318:6 321:6,15witness263:5 326:14 343:8,9witnesses317:16wives332:10,17Woodfield262:20 326:12,15

327:24 328:12 335:11338:18 339:12 343:2343:17

word273:12words270:21work266:1worked338:6

WRITE342:2wrong314:19

X

YY290:13year268:5,8,13,15 271:25

302:24 303:1,5,6,8,13303:16,20,23 311:14315:18,22

year-end307:10 309:5,8,11yearly271:23 280:9years338:12yelling333:14yesterday264:16 265:12 266:15

267:22 268:2,4 270:2270:5 277:3 278:2281:20 283:11 288:2288:6,17 289:2,3331:2

York261:1 262:5,5 308:19

308:20,21

ZZunno262:7 263:9 264:12

292:9 301:25 307:24309:14 316:5 328:5338:16 339:13 343:16

008-01789261:5

1




Page 16

1296:21 304:111,000,016294:181,216,000294:1710321:21 322:910-05421261:1410:18316:110:27316:410:52338:1910:58338:2210:59261:21 339:16,1710111262:511322:9,10,16 327:21

335:4,15 336:1711/21/2019343:511:18309:212340:1712/27309:412/31/97306:612/93299:612/94299:612/95299:6,6,614317:215293:17 302:9 303:3

16338:1217280:4,5 290:15,19

298:14,17,19,23299:17,23 318:12,12

18321:19 322:12181757340:161980316:19 317:2,13

320:21 322:251992270:12 271:2,7 272:25

275:5 309:21 329:19338:8

1993268:15 294:18 295:3,7

301:21994291:10 294:18 295:4,7

301:21997307:10,181998302:9 303:10,11

307:19

22261:18 269:10 297:15

297:17 299:3 304:12342:3

2,500,000306:72.5307:12,1420340:9 342:42005288:82008276:18 286:11 311:22

311:24 323:13 327:21

330:12 335:4,15336:16,17 337:20,25338:3,10 339:4

2019261:20 264:4 340:9,10

341:19 342:4 343:12022340:172028166261:25 343:621261:20 264:4212262:6212-396-0404308:1422340:10 341:19 343:1225293:9 296:6226295:24227295:2423316:23,2524316:25249261:21 262:16 343:326270:2,3 281:25261341:8264263:9269263:13282263:14289263:15292263:16

33291:10 304:12 322:330269:19300278:9,11,13,22 279:17

280:5 284:7 297:3299:20

301A262:17 343:3302263:17308263:18309263:1931268:11316263:2032267:25 268:1033267:2533480261:22 262:18 343:4336296:22 297:6,14,15

298:17339341:935288:5

44322:3434,000295:1145262:447263:13 268:25 269:2,348




Page 17

263:14 281:25 282:1282:4

49263:15 289:19,22

301:9,13,18

55322:350263:16 270:7,11 273:7

292:9,10,13 301:11301:23

51263:17 302:1,2,552263:18 307:25 308:1,453263:19 309:15,16

310:1354263:20 316:6,7,10561262:19589-4200262:6

66282:66,720,000297:9 298:2627-8100262:19

77318:12

88282:8

99:16261:21 264:5

92275:6,13 323:1393268:11 275:6,14,16

323:13 338:896293:17
