Episode 3.28 Living a Feminist Life with Sara Ahmed · [Music: "Thick Skin" by Leona Lewis] Hannah (Host): 02:46 Okay! Welcome. I want to start off by telling you that a previous

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Episode3.28LivingaFeministLifewithSaraAhmedMay3,2019

Hannah(Host): 00:00 [Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgenda.Andtheepisodethisweekishonestlyabitofadreamcometrueforme.ThisisoneofthosedreamimpossiblegueststhatIreachedouttobecause,youknow,"youmiss100%oftheshotsyoudon'ttake,"orsomething.Andwhensheagreedtodoanepisode,IwassoblownawaythatItoldalmostnooneaboutitincaseitdidn'tactuallyhappen,butithappened.It'sreal.It'shere,you'reabouttolistentoit.Beforeyoulistenedtoit,letmeaddonelastsmallplugfortheeventthatI'mdoinginTorontonextweekonMay7thIamappearingalongsidetheco,myco-editorsforRefuse:CanLitinRuins.Soit'sgoingtobeme,JulieRak,andErinWunkerinconversationwiththreeoftheincrediblecontributorstothebook.SoPhoebeWang,GwenBenaway,andDorothyEllenPalmerwillalsobethere.Theeditorswillbeinterviewingtheauthorsandthenthere'llbeasortofopenQ&Adiscussion.Ithinkit'sgoingtobeareallygreatevent.It'sMay7th6:30PMto8:30PMattheTorontoReferenceLibraryandBeetonHall.Idon'tdoalotofeventsinToronto,soIhopesomeofyouwillcomeout,comesayhitome,assumingIhaven'tmetyou.IfIhavemetyou,thenalsoyoushouldcomesayhi.Bothofthoseapply.Allright,Wecannotandshouldnotdelayanylonger,solet'smeetSarah.[Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]SarahAhmedisanindependentfeministscholarandwriter.Herbook,What'stheUse?:OntheUsesofUseisforthcomingwithDukeUniversityPressinthefallof2019.HermostrecentpublicationsincludeLivingaFeministLife,WillfulSubjectsandOnBeingIncluded:RacismandDiversityinInstitutionalLife.[Music:"ThickSkin"byLeonaLewis]

Hannah(Host): 02:46 Okay!Welcome.IwanttostartoffbytellingyouthatapreviousguestofthispodcastwassothrilledwhenItoldherthatyouhadagreedtocomeonthepodcast,thatsheasked,asajoke,ifshecouldjustlikesitinthebackgroundwhileIrecordit.

Sara: 03:02 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 03:02 She'snothere.Iassureyou.

Sara: 03:03 Thatwould'vebeenfine.

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Hannah(Host): 03:03 It'sjustyouandme.It'sjustyou,andme,andsomecats,andultimatelythelisteners.IgenerallywithSecretFeministAgendaepisodeshaveprettyfreeformconversations,butIactuallyjustfinishedreadingLivingaFeministLife,andsoI'dliketomostlytalkaboutthatbook.

Sara: 03:24 Okay.

Hannah(Host): 03:24 Andtheworkthatyou'redoinginthatbookandmaybealittlebitaboutyournewworkoncomplaintanduse,whichI'mveryexcitedaboutaswell.

Sara: 03:34 Okay.

Hannah(Host): 03:34 SoI'dliketostartbytalkingalittlebitaboutthemoveyoumadeafewyearsagointobloggingyourscholarshipandwhatsortofinspiredthatshifttostartingtowriteablog.Youtalkintheintroduction,ormaybeeventheacknowledgements,ofLivingaFeministLifeaboutthisbeingyourfirsttimewritingabookalongsideablog.AndI'mreallycuriousabout,youknow,whyyoustartedbloggingandhowblogginghasshiftedyourwritingprocess.

Sara: 04:04 Yeah,well,ImeanIthinkIwasverymuchawarethatfeminismis,issomethingthatreallycanbequiteexplosivewhereveryouare.Itcanreallyshiftandchangethehorizonsthroughwhichyouliveyourlife.AndI'vealsobecamemoreaware,inpartIwouldsay,throughsocialmedia,orjustthroughengagingwithdifferentaudiences,thattheuniversityhasthesewallsthataresometimesquitehardtopenetrate.Andthatfindingwaystomakeconnectionswithotherfeminists,whoweren'tnecessarilyavailabletomethroughtheuniversitysystem,wasimportant.Iwenttothisconference,itwascalledReactor:BlackFeministTheoryandActivism[sic].ItwasheldataTraffordRapeCrisisCenter.AndItalkedthere,forthefirsttime,aboutkilljoystoanon-universitybasedaudienceanditwasjustveryshiftingforme.It,ittheconnectionsthatImade,theelectricityIfeltintheroom,andbeingoutofengagedoutsideoftheuniversityenvironment,I,I,Irealizedthat'swhatIwantedtodomoreandthatIneededtofindwaysofwritingformatsthatwouldallowmetohavethoseconnectionsmoredirectlythanI'dhadinthepast.Soitwasdefinitelyaboutadesireforconnectionthatwasn'tconfinedbytheuniversity,assuch.AndIwasinfluencedbyvariouspeopleIwasengagingwithonFacebookatthetimetothinkaboutablogisquiteagoodplacewhereIkilledjoytobe.Likeyoucouldgoanddokilljoywork,whichissortofcallingintoquestionthenormsthattheassumptionorpresumptionofhappinessgenerates.Soyoucoulddothatreallywellinablog,

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wouldthatwiththespeedandthedirectnessofablog.Sotheideawasalways,"oh,let's,let'sgivekilljoysablog."Andthat'showIsawtheproject.Itdefinitelychangedmywritingtobeworkinginadifferentformat,tobegettingmuchmoreimmediateresponsesfrompeoplewhowerepartofmycommunity,butnotnecessarilypartoftheuniversity.AndIwaswritingtheblogalongsidedoingactivistworkatmyuniversityaroundtheproblemofsexualharassmentandsexualmisconduct,andtheblogthat'sacquiredtheurgencyofthatproject,ofhavingtofindawayofaddressingaproblemherewhereIwasandnotsomewhereelse.AndIthinkasaresult,thekindofwritingthatIwasdoingdidbegintoshiftsomewhat.Itwasn'tparticularlyplannedorintentional,buttheimmediacyoftheblogcombinedwiththeurgencyofthatprojectmeantthatmyownwritingbecamelooser,lessacademic.

Hannah(Host): 06:44 Mmhmm.

Sara: 06:44 Mysentencesstartedtobecomelessgrammatical,whichwasI'veseennotnecessarilyanidealfromaneconomicspointofview.

Hannah(Host): 06:52 [Laughs].

Sara: 06:52 Butseemtobeimportanttoexpresssomething.

Hannah(Host): 06:56 Yeah.

Sara: 06:56 Soitbecameaveryhelpfulandmeaningfulwideningofmywriting.

Hannah(Host): 07:03 Yeah.

Sara: 07:03 Tobeabletohavethatblogandit'sdefinitelychangedmywritingforthewritingInowdowillalwaysbedifferentbecauseIhavethatblog.

Hannah(Host): 07:10 Yeah,yeah.Becausethatvoicehasbecomejustpartofyourwriterlyvoice.

Sara: 07:13 Yeah,exactly.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 07:13 Doyoualsofindsortofbetweenwhenyoustartarticulatingsomethingonthebloganditcomestogetherintheformofabooklike,aretheideasgettingpushedbythepeoplewhoarereadingit?

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Sara: 07:24 Yeah,absolutely.Imean,Ithinkwe,wealwayshaveasenseofpushandpullfromtheengagementsthatweareluckyenoughtoexperienceas,asfeministintellectualsandactivists.Andthatpushandpullhappenswhereveryouare.Ithappenswhenyou'reinateachingsessionandastudentasksaquestionthatactuallyunsettlesyourframework.Ithappenswhenyougetacommentonyourblogthatwasoften,orperhapsalittleunexpected.Iactuallyoftenthinkthatthepushandthepullof,ofengagementfromourwidercommunity,ascholarlycommunity,isoftenaboutbeinginterruptedandsurprised.AndIthinkbecauseabloggivesyouamuchmoredirectlinetherekindofsurprisesontheinterruptionswere,weremorepalpableandmorevisceralthattheymight'vebeenifIwasjustwritingbooksandsendingthemoutandnotknowingwhathappenedtothem.Becausewhenyouwritebooks,likeyoudon'thaveadirectrelationtoyourreadersunlesssomeonesendsyoualetterandittakestime,blah,blah,blah.SoIthink,yeah,IthinkI,Ireallydovalue,butpartlybecause,youknow,IdidresignfrommyjobduringtheprocessofwritingLivingaFeministLife,andlefttheuniversitysystematonelevel,thatitwasjustsoimportanttometoactuallyhaveanotherwayofaccessingfeministideas.Beingpartoffeministscommunitythatwasn'tthroughtheuniversity.Idon'tthinkIwould'vebeenabletodoitto,tomakethatshift,tohavetheconfidencethatIwouldstillbepartofafeministintellectualcommunityifhadn'tbeenforthepossibilitiesenabledbyasocialmedia,andblogwriting,andalltheotherkindofwaysofliberalizingfeministorfeministknowledge.

Hannah(Host): 09:04 Yeah.Yeah,Ido.Ithinkalotabout,thewaythewallsaroundtheuniversityare.Imean,Ithinkwetalkaboutthem,atleastintheCanadianpostsecondarysystemasaproblemthattheuniversityhasengagingthepublic,butitalsocutsusofffromouraudiences,fromourcommunities,fromthepublicsthatweactuallywanttobeindialoguewith.Soitdoes,Imeanwallsworkbothways,right?

Sara: 09:28 Yeah,absolutely.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 09:30 Sothinkingabout,sortof,bloggingandhowit'simpactedyourwork,Iwasalsothinkingaboutthe,thedifferentgenresthatyou'reworkingininthebookitself,whichconcludeswithatoolkitandamanifesto,andisalsosortofwithinthebookworkingwithalotofgenresona,onagranularlevel.Soitfeelsreallyaphoristicattime,thissortofboldedsentencesthatarepulledout.Italsoworksintheanecdote,itfeelsinthatwaydifferentfromearlierwork.I'mthinkingofTheCulturalPoliticsofEmotion,which,whichfeelssortof,atatexturallevel,

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different.AndsoI'mcuriousifyoucouldtalkalittlebitaboutplayinginthoseothergenresaswell:writingamanifesto,writingalikealmostarecipelistforafeministsurvivaltoolkit,youknow,writingthese,theseaphorismswherethose,thosedifferentgenrescomefromorwhatworkthey'redoingforyou.

Sara: 10:27 Yeah,Ithinkyouknowhowwewriteissuchanimportantquestion,andI'vealwayslearnedsomuchjustfromtalkingtootherwritersabouttheirprocessandthemethodsandhowyouendupfindingawriter'svoiceandmakingchoicesaboutformandgenre.AndIthinkit'squitecomplicatedbecausesometimesretrospectively,itcanfeellikeyoumadeacoherentdecision,butatthetimeyouknowthingshappenandwritinghappenstoo.Lifehappens.Itallhappensallatthesametime.

Hannah(Host): 10:57 [Laughs].

Sara: 10:57 Andformelike,althoughLivingaFeministLifewithoutquestion,isashift,therewasamorecontinuousprocessof,of,ofchangefromthefirstbookthatIdid,whichwasmyPhD,basically,Different,DoesitMatter.'98throughto,towhereIamnow.Andeachbookhasthoughtalittlebitlikeloosening,likethelooseningofthe,thegenrewithwhichIwastrained,whereyouknow,youhavetohaveanargument,youhaveabodyofreferences,your,yourargument,yourreferences,yourskillsallowyoutodothings.Buttheycanalsobecomequiteconstraining.AndIthink,youknow,weneedtolearnsometimestheskills,themethodsthatenableustoparticipateinanacademiccommunity,butwecanalsosometimesunlearnwhatwe'velearned.Andthatunlearningcanoftenmeanlooseningandlighteningthewritingup.AndactuallyIthinkthatthey're,thereallyshiftinmywritingcamewhenIwroteQueerPhenomenology,whichwas,wasthefourthbook.Andthatwasoddinawaywhenyou'relookingbackbecausethat'sactuallymymost,youmightsayphilosophicalbookinthatit'smostlyclearlyorexplicitlylocatedinaphilosophicaltradition,inphenomenology.Butbecauseinthatbook,whathappenedinthatbookisthat,youknow,IwaswritingaboutHusserl'sphenomenologyandIfoundthetableinHusserl'sreferences.Hewasreferringtothetablebecausethetablewastheobjectinfrontofhim.Anditmademebecomeveryawareandvery,veryinterestedinthethingsthatappearinacademicwork,andwhatstoriestheyhavetotell.AndIbegantoreallyjustbegin,Ibeganreallytostartfollowingthetabletotheobject,ratherthanfollowingthe,youknow,thewordoftheconceptthroughphenomenology.Iwasfollowingtheconceptoforientationinthatbook,thattheobjectitself,thetable,whichwaswhatwasclosetohandforherself,caughtmyattention.And,and

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interestingly,thatthetabledidthatreallyshiftedthewriting.ItlooseneditupbecauseIbegantothinkaboutwhereelsetablesappear.Thefamilytable,thekilljoyofcourseappearsatatable.Sosometimesyou'redoingonekindofprojectandsomethingyouencountercanredirectyou.Andthatverymuchhappenedinthatbook.AndIactually,spokeabouttablesinatapeonatape,inanaudiorecording.Forsomereasonitbecamemuchmoreaboutthesoundofwordsandthesoundofsentences,andmywritingbecamealittlebitmoreliteraryasaresultofthat.

Hannah(Host): 13:23 Mmm.

Sara: 13:23 Ibecameveryinterestedinjustwhatthematerialityofthesentencesweredoingandthe,themaybethe,theinterestinthematerialityofwordsandthesoundofwordscamefromtheinterestofthematerialityofthetable.Thetableledmethere.AndeversincethenwhenI'dbeenfollowingwords,whetherit'sthe"happiness"or"thewill"or"use,"ithasbeenthewordsthathavecaughtmyattention,butalsothethings.

Hannah(Host): 13:45 Mmhmm.

Sara: 13:45 AndIthinkthere's,there'sbeenagradualprocessofI'mplayingaroundwithgenreandchanginghowIrelatetomymaterialsas,asaresult.SoI,althoughLivingaFeministLifedidfeelverydifferent,inpart,asIwaswritingitalongsideablogandIwaswritinginalessorganizedway.Lessacademically,perhapsyoumightsay,inthatIdidn'thavelikethebookasitendedupwithverydifferenttomystartingpoint,whileusuallyIhavethisplanandIknowexactlywhatI'mdoing,whereLivingaFeministLifeitwasalittlebitmorehaphazard.Soalthoughtheredidfeellikeashift,it,italsofeltlikeit'spartofalongerjourney.Ithinkweallhavewritingjourneysandthere'sallsortsofinfluencesthatleadustowriteinacertainkindofwayinacertainkindoftimeforacertainkindofaudience.

Hannah(Host): 14:31 Yeah.Yeah,Ithinkalotaboutthe,thisprocessof,ofunlearning,whichIaminthemidstofmyself,theunlearningoftheacademicwritingskillsthatwehave,youknow,wereindoctrinatedinor,orlet'ssayreallycarefullytaughtin.

Sara: 14:48 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 14:49 Ingradschool.AndImyselfatmomentsaskingwhattheuseofthatkindofwritingisbecauseitfeelslikewelearnitonlytounlearnitagain.Sodoyouhaveasenseoftherebeingvaluein

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thatoriginallike,learningthoseveryprecise,sortof,rhythmsandstructuresofscholarlyprosthatsomanyofoursortofmostsuccessful,mostengagedacademicsseemtoendupmovingawayfrom.

Sara: 15:17 Imean,my,mysenseisisthatthereisvalueeveninacquiringtheskillsthatrequirenarrowingthetask.Becauseinthatnarrowing,thenarrowingoftherangeofpossibilities,youdogetacertainkindofdepthderivedfromfollowingadisciplinarypathandasetoftechniques.Andlearningthosepathsandtechniquescanbequitehelpfulevenif,intheend,onehastounlearnthemtodosomethingelse.AndIthinkthat,ImeanIknowthat,actuallyhavingtaughtalotinwomen'sstudiesandinculturalstudiesthatactuallystartingoutfromthepointofviewofinterdisciplinarityandlotsofdifferentwaysofdoingthewriting,althoughthatcanbean,anamazingthing--

Hannah(Host): 16:05 Mmhmm.

Sara: 16:05 --canalsobringwithita,thefearandanxietyorhavingsomanydifferentplacestogo.Andatsometimesanarrowingof,of,averyparticularsetofapproacheshas,hastheuseofenablingsomebodytoacquiretheconfidenceinbeingabletodosomething.And,and,andalmostlikepracticesomethingsothatitbecomesalmosthabitual.Andoncesomethinghasbecomealmosthabitual,youarethenfreedtodootherthings.Sothat'snotanargumentagainstdisciplinarity.It'sjustsayingthatit'sinterdisciplinarityrightfromthebeginninghaschallengedus,whichtellsusthatdisciplinaritycanhavebenefits,sothatwhatisrestrictiveisalsoanthatallowingyoutodosomething.Buthavingsaidthat,youknow,IwassomebodywhohadarelativelyinterdisciplinarybeginningbecauseIdidahumanitiesdegreeinAustralia.SoEnglishandhistoryandphilosophy.AndIalso,whenIdiddolikeEnglish,Ididn'tdomajortextsorclassics.I,IjustpickedthecoursesIliked,cuztheEnglishdegree.And,andeveneveninthatcontext,Ithinkstudentsbringtheirownhistories,andtheirownpreferences,andtendencies,andwillstobearonthetextsorintheclassroom.AndIwasjustneversomebodywhoreceivedideasverywillingly.

Hannah(Host): 17:21 [Laughs].

Sara: 17:21 Iwasjustlike,"but,butno,no..."so.

Hannah(Host): 17:24 [Laughs]willful.

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Sara: 17:25 So,yeah,exactly.AndI,Ikindof,Ididn'thave,youknow,anarrowdisciplinarytraining,byanymeans.AndalsoIdidn't,Ididn't,IalwayswantedtodosomethingelseofwhatIwasgiven.SoIdiddophilosophy,butwhereIwasstudying,myfirstdegreewasanalyticalphilosophy,soIdidn'treallywanttodothat.ButevenwhenIstartedreadingphilosophicaltexts,primarilyonmyownorthroughmydepartment,Ididn'tacquirethehabitusofaphilosopher.Ineverlearnedtoassimilatephilosophicalideaswell.Ikindofalways,italwaysgavemeindigestion.

Hannah(Host): 18:01 [Laughs].

Sara: 18:01 SoI,youknow,Ithinkwecanbetrainedindifferentways.Anarrowerandabroadertrainingtheyhavewiththemrisks,butalsobenefits.Butnomatterwhatwereceiveasstudents,whatweendupwithisalwaysquitedifferent.

Hannah(Host): 18:20 Yeah.

Sara: 18:20 Andyouknow,Ithinkthemostimportantthingistogivepeopleroomtoworkoutwhatkindofwritingtheywanttodo.Becauseworkingatwhatkindofwritingyouwanttodoisnotdifferentfromworkingoutwhatkindofrelationshiptotheworlddoyouwanttohave.Ithinkthey'recontinuousquestions.Idon'tknowifthatansweredyourquestionactually.[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 18:38 Youabsolutelydid.Youcompletelydid.Thewayyoudescribeddisciplinarityreallymirroredmyownexperience.IfIalsodidaaBachelorofHumanitiesanddidn'tstartstudyingEnglishformallyuntilgradschool,andverymuchjustneverlearnedhowtodothedisciplinecorrectly.Iknowtherewasaproperwaythatyouweresupposedtochooseatheoristandturnthemintoamethodologyandthenusethattoreadotherbooks.You'resupposedtobelikeaFoucauldianreader,oraDerridianreaderora,andthenusethatasthelensyouusetoreadbooks.ButIjustcouldneverfigureouthowtodothatright.

Sara: 19:12 Yeah.Andsometimesit'sgoodnottobeabletofigurethingsout.

Hannah(Host): 19:13 Sometimesit'sgoodnottoknowhowtodothingscorrectly.So,youknow,sometimesit'sgoodtobebad.Ido,Iwant,Iwanttofollowthroughintothisconversationaboutbeingawillfulsubjectintheuniversity.Butjustbeforeweleave,thetopicof,ofwritingstyle,youalludedtothisinapreviousanswerandI,Ialreadyhaditwrittendownasaquestion,whichisaboutthe

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waythatyourworkfocusesonwords,thatsomanyofyourbooksarethesesortofextendedmeditationsthat,thattakeofffromparticularwords.So"killjoy,""willful,""complaint,""use,"isthenewwork.AndI'mwouldlovetohearmoreaboutwhatitisaboutaparticularwordthatgrabsyou,likewhyyou'reinterestedinworkingatalevelofthewordlikethat,butalsohowitcomesthatonewordbecomesthewordthatyouareworkingwith.

Sara: 20:07 Yeah,Imeanthat's,that'sagoodquestion.Andsometimesit'shardtogobackwardstoworkoutwhatledyousomewhere.

Hannah(Host): 20:15 Mmhmm!

Sara: 20:15 AndI,I'vealwaysreallylovedlanguage,IsupposeIwouldsaymyaunt,whoItalkaboutinthebeginningofLivingaFeministLifewasapoet.Myfavoritetheoristsarepoets,likeAudreLorde.Sothatinterestinlanguageaspartofwhatanimatesmeanyway.ImeanIhavethatasakindofhumaninterest,asopposedtojustascholarlyone.Andlike,Ispenthalfmylifeinanetymologydictionary.I'vejustbeenfascinatedalwaysby,wellnotalways.That'slikeobviouslynotquitetrue--

Hannah(Host): 20:43 [Laughs].

Sara: 20:43 --butaslongasIcanrememberI'dbeenfascinatedbythemutationsofwords,howtheyacquiredifferentmeanings.LikeIrememberwhenIfirstlookedup"happiness"andIdidn'tknowthatitcamefromtheEnglishword"hap"meaningchance.

Hannah(Host): 20:56 Yeah.

Sara: 20:57 Andthatjustbecamesuchaninterestingthing,likehappinessnowissooftendefinedagainsthappenstanceor,whatIthinkofas"thehap."It'swhatyouearn.It'swhatyou,whatyoudeserveforlivingyourlifeintherightway.Andthequestionthatcamewas"howdid'happiness'loseits'hap'?"Butofcoursetogettothatquestion,"howdid'happiness'loseits'hap'?"IhadtofirstbecomeinterestedinthewordhappinessandIhadtofirstbecomeinterestedintheinwordsthemselves.AndIthinkpartoftheinterestinmutationoflanguage,partofthatinterestisjustaboutifyoufollowthewords,wheredoyougo?AndalthoughmystartingpointwasquiteliteraryandI'maliterarytrainedscholarbytraining,Iwassortofbecameveryinterestedinhowwordstravelandhowtheyacquiremeaningandvalue.Andthatwasverymuchpartofmyearlyworkonaffect,was

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likehowwordsbecomesticky.IusedtothinkofitaslikeVelcro,whatthewordgoesnearstickstoit.

Hannah(Host): 21:56 Mmm.

Sara: 21:56 AndsoIbecameveryinterestedintryingtoexplainthestickinessoflanguageorhowinthecontextofracisthatespeech,likeawordcanbeusedinsuchawayastoimplythattheproximitybetweenitandsomethingisinherent.Soapoliticianmightsay,"thisisnotawaragainstIslam,"andthenusethefigure"Islamicterrorist"asiftheproximitybetween"Islam"and"terror"wasmorethansimplytemporal.Andsotherewasaninterestthereearlyoninthemechanismsthatallowwordstoacquireandholdontomeaning.AndalotofthewordsthatIbecameinterestedinwherewe'reholders,theword"queer,"likeasweallknow,Imeanittravelspartlybyholdingontothebaggage,thenegation,theinsultbetransformedintoatool.Thetransformationof"queer"frominsultintocomplaint.That,thatmechanism,thatpolitics,thatgesturehasalwaysfascinatedme.SowhichwordIhappentofollowatwhichtime,Imeanthere'sallsortsofinfluencesthat.ButIhavefoundthat,atleastinmyworkthatthere'salwayssomethingthatbringsmetoit.Withtheword"happiness"wouldbeoneexamplewherepartlyitwasaboutthe,theresearchI'vebeendoingearlier.Sotheresearchondiversity,whichinvolvedaskingpractitionersabouthowtheyusethelanguageofdiversitybecameverymuchasortofresearchprojectthatlookedatwhatdiversitywasdoingasawayofcreatingtheimpressionofinstitutionalhappiness.Soimmediatelyinaskingwhatdiversityisdoing,itledmetothinkingaboutwhathappinessisdoingasawayoftenofscreeningoutongoingrelationsofviolenceandinequality.Buttheotherinfluencewaswatchingthefilm"BenditLikeBeckham,whichyouknow,I'mveryinterestedinandIreallylike,butit'salsoreallyannoyingforthehappinessofit'sending,whichissomuchpremisedontheactoflettinggooftheexperienceorthememoryoftheviolenceofracismthroughproximitytothewhitemanthroughplayingthegame.Soherehappinessseemedtobethiskindoflikeforwardagenticthingthatrequiresyoutogiveupmemoriesofpain,ofracism.Sowatchingamovie,doingaresearchproject,thesewerewherehappinessasaword,asaconceptofathingthatwasdoingsomethingcametomeassomethingthatdemandedmyattention.

Hannah(Host): 24:08 Mmhmm.

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Sara: 24:08 Andthenyoufollowthatword,andofcoursewhenyoufollowthatwordyoudon'tknowwhatyou'regoingtofind.

Hannah(Host): 24:12 Yeah.

Sara: 24:12 Icertainlyfoundhowoftenwithhappinesscomeswillandthatthat'spartofthephilosophicaltradition,philosophicalhistory,butitwasalsointhematerials.Sooftentheonewhowasakilljoy,whogetsinthewayofbeinghappy,wasalsoandsortofbeingwillfulas,as,asaproblembecauseoftheirwill.Sounhappinessandwillingwrong,we'revery,verysattogether.Sofrom"happiness"to"will,"andthenfrom"will"to"use."Eachwordbringswithitmaterialsthatthenleadmetootherwordsandit'sabit,it'sabitlikethat.It'saveryorganicprocessatonelevel.Butyeah,thingsjumpoutatyouandoncethey'vecaughtyourattention,it'shardtoletthemgo.Problemisofcourseyouseethemeverywhere.

Hannah(Host): 24:57 Yeah.

Sara: 24:57 Andyouknow,youhavetobecarefulthatyoudon'tpresumethatthewordfallsaroundthewordthatyouhavechosen.

Hannah(Host): 25:02 Mmm.

Sara: 25:02 Butthatyourecognizethelimitsorwhereyoucangoifyou'refollowingthisword.Becausefollowingthisworddoesn'tmeangoingeverywhere.Evenifthewordfeelslikeit'sgoingeverywheresometimes.

Hannah(Host): 25:12 Oh,anditcanfeellikethat,right?Whenyou'rerightinthemidstofsomethingandallofasuddeneverythinglookslikeit'sreflectingbacktoyouthenewpointofinterest.

Sara: 25:20 Yes,exactly.We'veallbeenthere.Weknowwhatthat'slike.

Hannah(Host): 25:24 [Laughs]Butthereisabeautiful,Imeanspeakingofhappenstance,thatbeautifulwaythatwhenyoustartedpayingattentiontothingsthataparticularway,you'rereadingstartsleadingyouthereor,youknow,itjustilluminatesdifferentpiecesofoftexts.Istartedpayingattentionto,forakeynoteIwaswritingacoupleofmonthsago,juststartedpayingattentiontocare.Iwasjustthinkingaboutcareinthecontextofthispodcastbecausewetalkalotaboutselfcareandcarejuststarted,youknow,itjuststartedpoppingupeverywhere.Iwasjustnoticingitandallofthetexts.Andevenifit'snot

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everything,thesortofthenoticingbecomesabigpartoffiguringouthowyouwanttoworkwithaterm.Yeah

Sara: 26:06 Yeah.Sometimesittakestimesometimestoevennoticewhatisactuallyalreadythere--

Hannah(Host): 26:12 Mmhmm.

Sara: 26:12 --Inthematerialsthatareclosetohand.IknowwhenIdidmydiversityprojectthatIgotturnedintothebookOnBeingIncluded,IhadadatasetthatIsatwithforquiteawhilebecausethedifficultiesonthatproject.AndwhenIcamebacktothem,theinterviews,transcripts,I'mlike,"ohmygosh,there'ssomanywallsinthematerial."Walls,brickwalls,thingsthatyoucan'tputgatesdespitebeingappointedasadiversitypractitioner,theinstitutionbecomesthiswallthatstopsyou.Ihadn'trealizedthatasIwasdoinginterviews,butittookabitoftimeforthewallstohitme.

Hannah(Host): 26:43 Yeah.

Sara: 26:43 Oncetheyhitme,Ibegantorealizetheyweredoingsomething.

Hannah(Host): 26:46 Mmhmm,yeah.

Sara: 26:46 --inthedatabecausetheyweredoingsomethingintheworldandthatIlearntalotfromhowto,howlongitcantaketonoticewhat'srightinfrontofyou.Andalwaysthentoseethatthematerialthatyouhave,that'sthepath,thatthatgivesyouthepathways.Iknowthatwiththeprojecton,onwillandwillfulness,becauseIwasfollowingthefigureofthewillfulchild,IcametotheGrimmstory,“TheWillfulChild,”whichIhadn'treadbefore.Andinthatstoryisthisimageofthearmthatkeepscomingup.AndthenonceI,onceIcaughtmyattention,thenIbegannoticingnotonlyarms,butallsortsofwillful,andwayward,andwanderingbodypartsacrossthematerialsIwasreading.Andtheirarmsfollowmethroughintotheuseproject.

Hannah(Host): 27:26 Mmhmm.

Sara: 27:27 ImmediatelyIbegantoreadaboutthewaysinwhichdifferentintellectualhistorieshavedealtwiththeconceptofuseormadeuseintoaconcept.Inoticedthattherewasalotofreferencetotheblacksmith'sarm.Theblacksmith'sstrongarm,becausetheblacksmith'sarmwasusedtoexemplifyprinciplesoftheFrenchbiologistLamarck,thatifyouusesomething,itbecomes

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stronger.AndyetinLamarckthereisnoreferencetoblacksmith'sarm,sothisblacksmith'sarmreallycaughtmyattention--

Hannah(Host): 27:53 Yeah.

Sara: 27:53 --becauseitwaskindofmissingfromLamarck,buteverywhere,everywherepresenttoexemplifyLamarckianprinciples.ButIwouldn'thavenoticedthearmwasmissingorthatthearmwasdoingthisworkifIhadn'talreadybeenengagedbythearminthewillfulstoryof“TheWillfulChild.”SoIthinkit'sreallyimportanttosaythatbecauseotherwiseitcanfeellikeyouhaveawordandaconceptandyou'refollowingitandyouknowwhereyou'regoing.

Sara: 28:16 Mmhmm.

Sara: 28:16 Butiffollowingawordoraconceptorathing,howeveryouchoosetodefinewhatitisthatyou'redoing,youencountermaterialsbecauseyou'redoingthatwork,butthematerialscomebacktoyouandtheyarevery,redirectiveandthatthat'sthejoyofthesearchforme.Whenyoufindsomethingthatactuallyflipsaround,flipsflipsyourmindthatthetotally,totallytakesyousomewhereelse.

Hannah(Host): 28:37 Yeah.

Sara: 28:37 Andthat'swhataresearchactuallyisabout.Ithink

Hannah(Host): 28:40 Italsosuggestssomethingofthewaythatthesetextsthatwefeellikewearesofamiliarwith,wefeellikeweknowwhat'sinthem,butyoucomebacktothemlookingdifferentlyandallofasuddenthey'redifferent.

Sara: 28:52 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 28:52 Likeit'saremarkableexperience.Thatsortofrereadingorrevisiting,especiallywhenyouthinkyouknowwhat'sinthere.Likeyouthinkyouknowthatthere'saparticularsentenceoraparticularimageinatextbecause,youknow,that'sthewayitcirculatesandthenyougobacktoitandfindthatit'smissingisalwaysa,aremarkablemoment.

Sara: 29:12 Yeah,absolutely.

Hannah(Host): 29:12 Solet'stalkalittlebitabouttheuniversityandleavingtheuniversity.AlotofSecretFeministAgenda,becauseitis,Imean

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muchinthewayyoudescribedsortofinLivingaFeministLife,it'stryingtodoafeministprojectthatspeakstopeopleoutsideoftheuniversity,butthisiswhereI'msituatedandsoit'swhereI'mspeakingfrom.AndsoalotofthetimewhenIthinkaboutthe,sortof,coerciveforceofinstitutions,it'stheuniversitythatIthinkabout.Andwetalkinparticularaboutwhetherornotitispossibletodoradicalworkfromwithintheinstitution,becausetheparticularshapeoftheuniversity,again,thesystemthatIknow,whichistheCanadianone,isthatitseemstohavethisendlesscapacitytoabsorb,critiqueandrenderthatcritiquepartoftheuniversity'sownmission.Sothatbeingpresent,andthisis,thisis,I'mthinkingofMotenandHarneyherelikethat,thatwhenyouarecriticalwithintheuniversity,youareservingtheuniversity'smission,whichistobecritical.

Sara: 30:11 Mmhmm.

Hannah(Host): 30:11 AndI'vebeenthinking,youknow,alsoalongsideMotenandHarneyabouttheideaoftheundercommons,andtheideaoftheundercommonsasperhapsnotavailabletoeveryone.Youknow,liketheundercommonsisanarticulationofwhatitmeanstobeaBlackscholarintheuniversityandcan'tbe,Ithinkeasilyuniversalizedaslikeeveryedgythinkerinthisinstitution,cuzthat,onceagain,becomesanotherkindofabsorption.SoIwonderifyoucouldtalkalittlebitfirstaboutthatdecisiontoleavetheuniversity,andwhatitlookslikeforyounowdoingwhatyou,atsomepoint,Ithinkmaybeinthebioonyourwebsiteyourefertoworkingontheuniversityeventhoughyounolongerworkatit.Andsothatshift,whatmaybeabouttheuniversityrevealsitselfdifferentlytoyounowthatyouareworkingonitbutnotatit.

Sara: 31:04 Yeah,Imean,IthinkI,ImeanIwould,Iwouldsaythatit'sveryimportant,likeany,anyterm,anyspacethatweimagineundercommonsorotherwiseis,asyou'veimpliedinyourremarks,appropriable.Andcriticalitywoulddefinitelybeoneofthosecasesinpoint.Imean,Icallitcriticalracism,theracismreproducedbythosewhothinkofthemselvesascritical.Theproblemthereisthatitwasassumedbyvirtueofhavinganorientationthatyoucantranscendthepositionfromwhichyou'respeaking.AndthatIthinkarealstartingpointforanyofus,whateverworkwedo,howeverwe'resituatedbodiesoutofplaceornot,isourowncomplicityin,inthesystemsthatwearetryingnottoreproduce.AndIseetheircomplicity,Ilearnedalotaboutcompetitiveontalkingtodiversitypractitioners.IntheBritishcontext,diversitypractitionersareallprettymuchalwaysadministrators.Sothey'reemployedbyhumanresources.Andalotofacademics,I'velearned,intheBritishcontexttendto

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thinkoftheiradministratorsasbeingkindoflikethehandypeople,andyouknow,academicsaretheheadsandthey'rethehands.Andtoseetheadministratorsasneoliberalagentsorasbeingsimplyaboutreproducingthelogicsattheuniversity,theacademicsarecritiquing,andIreallyrejectthat.Iactually,I'veactuallyfoundverymuchthattalkingandworkingwithdiversitypractitionerswhoareoftenadministrators,whowereactuallygiventhetaskofinstrumentalizingandinstitutionalizingcommitmentstodiversity,it'staughtmeaboutwherepoliticalchangehappens.

Hannah(Host): 32:38 Mmm.

Sara: 32:38 Anditoftendoesn'thappenintheradicalintellectualswritingbooksabout,youknow,theirradicalintellectualideas.

Hannah(Host): 32:44 [Laughs].

Sara: 32:44 Ithappensonpeoplewhoaredoingthehandiwork,whowereactuallyworkingwithwhatseemstobewhatAudreLordemighthavecalled"themaster'stools,"butthey'retryingtousethosetoolstodosomethingotherthankeepthehouseinitsexistingshape.Soit'softeninthehousework,Ithinkaboutashousework,peoplewhoappeartobeatonelevel,havingnoroomforcritique,whoareactuallygivingus,orcouldsharewithusthemostimportantdataontheuniversity.Andthat'swhereI'velearnedsomuchfromactuallyjustlisteningtopeoplewhoweregiventhattaskofdiversifyingtheinstitution.AndthatisoftenaboutlisteningtohowI'vecalleditthenonperformative,howthingsdon'tbringintoeffectwhattheyname.Diversitypoliciesthatarebroughtintoexistencewithoutcomingintouse.

Hannah(Host): 33:33 Mmhmm.

Sara: 33:33 It'slistening,they'renotinformedofcamefromlisteningtopractitionerstalkaboutwhatitfeelsliketohavetheuniversitytakeuptheworktheydowhilstneutralizingthatworkwithsomanyconsequences.SoI,Isaythatpartlycomingoutofauniversitythat,thatyouhadalotofinvestmentofbeingcriticalandwhereequalityanddiversitywasseenasaudit,andbureaucratic,andthingsthatwereaboutkeepingthemachinegoing.It'sreallyimportanttometosaythatthepeoplegiventhetaskofkeepingthemachinegoingareoftenthosewhoknowaboutthemachine.Soyes,Ithinkwhenyou'reinvolvedinthecomplaint,whenyou'reinvolvedintheprojectofbringingtoattentionreallydeeprootedrelationsofabuseandharassmentyoucertainlylearnaboutthatmachinetoo.Alotof

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whatyou'redoingwhenyou'remakingcomplaintshappensbehindcloseddoors.

Hannah(Host): 34:27 Mmhmm.

Sara: 34:27 Acomplaintassoonasit'smadeismadeconfidential.There'salotofsecrecy,there'salotofcontainment.

Hannah(Host): 34:33 Yeah.

Sara: 34:33 Suppressionmeanstokeepsomethingsecretaswellastocontain.Andcomplaintalso,Icallit"institutionalmachinery."Complaintsteachaboutinstitutionalmachineryandyoucometoknowsomuchaboutwhattheinstitutiondoesnotwanttoreveal.AndImean,therecametobeacertainpointwhereIkindoflike,knewtoomuchabouttheinstitutionIwasworkingatandIsimplyjustcouldnotstayworkinganymorewithoutfeelingthat,intheend,Iwouldhavetobecomecomplicitwiththeverymechanismsthatweresilencingthatwasstoppingtheinformationabouttheharassmentandabuseandbullyingfromgettingout.

Hannah(Host): 35:10 Mmhmm.

Sara: 35:10 Soinordertogettheinformationout,Ihadtogetout.Imeanitwasassimpleasthat.Imeansomepeoplewouldcallit"becomingawhistleblower;"itcertainlydidn'tfeelitasintentionalordeliberateasthat.SoitwasjustacertainpointandI'mlike,"Ican'tdothisanymore,"becauseyoucutupagainsttheverystructuresthatthecomplaintsaretryingtoaddress.

Hannah(Host): 35:27 Yeah.

Sara: 35:27 Butbecauseyou'retryingtoaddressthem,youcomeupagainstthemevenmore.Andthat'soneofthethingsI'velearnedsincewe'redoingtheprojectIoncomplaintisthatifyoupointoutharassment,ifyouevenusethelanguageofharassment,you'llbeharassedorthemore.Andyoutrycreateroomandyou'llendupwithlessrooms.Soitdidn'tactuallyfeellikeImadethis,sortof,deliberatechoicetoleavetheuniversity.Itfeltlikelike,"I'mdoingthiswork."Ican't.Yougetstuckintheverydynamicswhoaretryingto,tochallengeandthere'sacertainpointyoureachwhereyoujust,youjustdon'tdoitanymore.

Hannah(Host): 35:58 Yeah.

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Sara: 35:59 AndobviouslyinmycaseIhad,Ihadoptions.Iwasalready,thinkingofmyselfasafeministwriterasmuchas,asa,asanacademic.

Hannah(Host): 36:07 Mmhmm.

Sara: 36:07 IknewIwouldbeabletotakesometimeoutbecausemypartner'sanacademicandhasasalary.Ihadtheprivilegesofbeingabletowithdrawwithoutgettinganotherjobstraightaway.Butitwas,thiswasnotahappystory.Thiswasactuallya,averytraumaticexperienceofreallycomingupagainst--

Hannah(Host): 36:22 Yeah.

Sara: 36:22 --theviolenceofaninstitutionthatiscommittedtonotknowingorrevealingordealingwiththeviolenceintheinstitution.Butevenunhappystoriescangiveyouoptions.

Hannah(Host): 36:34 Mmhmm.

Sara: 36:35 AndoneofthethingsIreallywantedtodowas,youknow,Ilearntsomuchfromthewayinwhichonceyoubegintosay,"Iwill,Iwilllistentoyou,"peoplewhohaveacomplainttomakewillfindyou.AndIwantedtocontinuetodotheworksupportingthosewhoaretryingtobringtheircomplaintstotheworldinotherways.Andthat,that'swhyIchosetosayworkingontheuniversity,whilenolongerworkingatit.

Hannah(Host): 37:00 Yeah,yeah.Anddoyoufeelorfindthatyoucanspeakdifferentlyabout,youknow,thestoriesthatpeoplearebringingyouorwhatyouobservedtherenowthatyou'renotintheinstitutioninthesameway?

Sara: 37:12 Ithinkitprobablyistrue.ImeanI,Ithinkit'sveryimportantthatmyowncomplaintstorywaspartofthestartingpoint.

Hannah(Host): 37:19 Mmhmm.

Sara: 37:20 I've,Iprimarilyreliedonpeoplefindingme.

Hannah(Host): 37:24 Yeah.

Sara: 37:24 SoIhaven'tlikegoneoutlookingforresearchparticipants.SothatIresignedandthat,especiallysaying"no,"my"no,""no"tothiswaspublicenoughmeantthatpeoplecouldfindme.

Hannah(Host): 37:37 Yeah.

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Sara: 37:37 Andthat'skindofafindingthatcomplaintshelpustofindeachother.SoIthinkmyowncomplaintexperience,whichIthinkwasalsoshapedbytheworkI'ddonealreadyonracismanddiversity,Ihadarealunderstandingofhowsomeoftheseinstitutionalprocessesworked,Ithinkhascertainlyallowedmetokindofhear--

Hannah(Host): 37:56 Mmhmm.

Sara: 37:56 --hearwhat'sgoingoninthecomplaintsthatI'mlisteningto.ButIthinkthereallybigdifferencethatbeingnotatauniversitymakes,ismoretothosewhoarespeakingtome.

Hannah(Host): 38:06 Yeah.

Sara: 38:06 IthinkitreallymatterstopeoplethatI'mnotlocatedinaninstitutionthat,thatinawayitkindoflikeI'm,thereweresuchproject'sthatnotfunded,it'snotgoingto,youknow,besubjecttothenormalrulesthat,inaway,cansometimesconstrainacademicknowledge.It'sakindoflikeifthey'rereallytraumaticorviolentexperienceshappenintheinstitution,thesensethatthepersonwho'sreceivingyourcomplaintisn'tthereanymore,Ithinkhasmadepeoplefeelmorecomfortableinsharingsomeofthismaterial.MostofthemwhoI'vespokento,ImeanI,it'scomplicated.I'mmainlydoinginterviewsbySkype.Idon'thavefunding.

Hannah(Host): 38:45 Mmhmm.

Sara: 38:45 Iknowwhatit'sliketohavetokeeprepeatingaverydifficultandpainfulstory.

Hannah(Host): 38:51 Yeah.

Sara: 38:51 Butalotofpeoplehavesaidtome,oneofthemainreasonsIwanttosharethestoryissothatthecomplainthassomewheretogo.

Hannah(Host): 38:58 Yeah.

Sara: 38:58 Becausesooftenwhenwedocomplainwegetstuckandit,andyoucanfeellikeyouhaveallofthismaterial,allthesestoriestotellandthestoryjustsitswithyou.

Hannah(Host): 39:07 Yeah.

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Sara: 39:07 Andyoubecomethislike,Ithinkofitasyoubecomeafilingcabinet.Youknow,you'restuffedfullofallthismaterial.SoI'mkindalike,I'mawayforthefilestogetoutforthe,forwhatstufftobe,tobeshared.AndItakethatasareallybigresponsibilitythatIhave,cuzI'mincrediblyprivilegedtobetheonewho'sholdingandsharingsomeofthestoriesthathadbeensharedwithmebecausetheyareincrediblypowerfultestimony.

Hannah(Host): 39:31 Whatyousaidaboutpeoplefindingeachotherthroughcomplaint.WhenIfirstarrivedinVancouver,I'vebeenherefortwoandahalfyears.WhenIfirstarrivedinVancouver,maybetwomonthsafterIarrived,therewasthis,sortof,institutionalexplosionofsortsatUBC,whichisnottheuniversityI'mat,buttheotherlargeruniversityinthecity,thatinvolvedtheheadofthecreativewritingprogramhadbeenfiredforanumberofcomplaintsmadeagainsthimbystudents--

Sara: 39:59 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 39:59 Including,Idon'tknowifthestoryevermadeitswaytoyou,but--

Sara: 40:02 Yeah.No,no,I,I,Iknowwhatyou'retalkingabout.

Hannah(Host): 40:05 AndIdidn't,atthetimeIknewnoneofthepeopleinvolvedinit.IjustknewthatshortlyafterIarrived,about80ofthemostpowerfulwritersinCanadasignedtothisopenletterinsupportofthefiretoprofessorsaying,youknow,essentially,Imean,we'refamiliarwiththeseopenletters,right?Weknowhowtheyworkthewaythattheyerasetheexperienceofthecomplainants.AndsowiththeexperienceoftheuniversitythatIhad,Ireadthisletter,Ididn'tknowanyofthepeopleinvolvedandIsaid,"well,thatreadstomelikebullshit,"becauseIknowhowpowerworksinuniversitiesandIknowhowharditistobeheard.AndIdefaulttobelievingstudentswhenthey[laughs]talkaboutwhat'shappenedtothem.AndsoIstartedcomplainingaboutthisletteralotpublicly,andthemajorityofthecommunitythatIhaveinVancouvernowisacommunitythatIfoundthroughcomplaint,throughbeingsomebodywhoislikenewinthiscommunity,butit'slike,"well,I'mmadaboutthis."Thenotherpeoplewhowerealsomadwe'relike,"ohyeah,metoo."

Sara: 41:09 Yeah.

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Hannah(Host): 41:09 Yeah.Justbeingaapublicangrypainintheasscanreallyhelpyoufindyourpeople.

Sara: 41:15 Yeah,noitabsolutelycan.AndIthinkinawayalotof,alotoffeministhistoryisaboutthat.Imeanpeople,whentheythinkaboutconsciousnessraising,maybeyouthinkaboutthatassortofspeakingtoeachotherinaroom,butinawaywhatitisisaboutsaying,"Icanbegintoparticipateinthisanger,thisrefusalofhowideasareordinarilyreceivedbydoingthatwithothers."Andit'sakindoflike,thatsidewaysconnectionbetweenthe,thepeoplewhoarearticulatingtheiranger,thatsidewaysconnection,thewayinwhichinformationcantraveldownthatline.It'sbeenvery,veryimportanttothehistoryoffeministscommunitiesofallkinds.AndIthinkoneofthethingsthatIwouldsayaswell,isthatmostofthetime,mostcomplaintsdon'tbecomepublic.

Hannah(Host): 41:56 Yeah.

Sara: 41:56 Imeantheyreallydon't.Sothere'salotofpressatthemomentintheUKaboutnondisclosureagreementsandthey'reabigproblem.Thewayinwhichallormostcomplaintsgetsettledbypeoplesigninguptowithholdinformationinreturnforreceivingsomethingfromtheinstitution.

Hannah(Host): 42:13 Mmhmm.

Sara: 42:13 Butthesilencingstartsrightfromthebeginning.Assoonascomplaintsaremade,they'remadeconfidential.SoalotofcomplaintsthatI,youknow,Ithinkaboutthat,that,thatfile,thatfilingcabinetisakindofinstitutionalcloset.AndIthinkaboutallthethingsthatareburiedthere,andbythingsIoughttoinclude,youknow,experiences,andrecords,anddocuments,butalsopeople.

Hannah(Host): 42:35 Yeah.

Sara: 42:35 Likethere'sakindoflikeinstitutionalburial.Andsofindingoutotherthreecomplaintsiswillinglyhadwhenthere'snoofficialrecord.

Hannah(Host): 42:45 Yeah.

Sara: 42:45 Andsooneofthethingsthat'sbeenreally,reallyinterestingtomeisthatwhenyoudomakeacomplaint,oftenwhathappens,thateventhoughthere'snotanofficialrecord,eventhoughalotofthatmaterialisheldincabinetsandclosetsofdifferent

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kinds,thatthroughofteninformalmeansofcommunication,peopledocometohear,"ohactuallysomebodyhadtriedtocomplainbefore."Theyfindout.Sothateventhese,these,these,thesecomplaintsthatdon'tleaveatraceintheofficialrecords,leaveatracesomewhere.Itmightbeinsomeone'smemoryoritmightbeinastorythathasbeensharedovertime.Andthat'sbeenwhat'sreally,reallyinterestingtomeinadditiontothekindofwayinwhichcomplaintpubliclyhelpsustofindquoteunquote"ourpeople."

Hannah(Host): 43:24 Mmhmm.

Sara: 43:24 Complaints,despitenotbeingpublic,canstillgiveusaconnectiontothesehistoriesthathaven'tleftatracebutarethereallthemore--

Hannah(Host): 43:35 Yeah.

Sara: 43:35 --inwhathasn'tbeendealtwith.Andoneofthepeoplethatcommunicatedwithmeby,bywrittentestimonytalkedaboutthecomplaintsgoingintoa"complaintgraveyard."AndIthink,youknow,Ithinkit'sreally,reallyinterestingtothinkabouttheghostlyfunction,thehaunting,youknow,the,thetaskinawayortheinstitution,itseemstoreproduceitself.Ithastocontainthecomplainer,butthatfails.

Hannah(Host): 43:59 Yeah.

Sara: 43:59 Andthat'swhereafeministcommunityofanyotherkindsofanti-racist,queercommunitiesoftencomefrom,theirfailureofthe,oftheinstitutionstocontainthecomplaints--

Hannah(Host): 44:09 Yeah.

Sara: 44:09 --whichactuallybearwitnesstotheviolenceoftheinstitutionsointentonreproducingitself.

Hannah(Host): 44:15 Andthentherebecomesawayinwhichwemaybeorareableorreadytoseethethoseghosts,toseethoseunwrittenhistories.Imeanjustthatbasiclike,"Ibelieveyou."Well,whydoIbelieveyou?IbelievebecauseIhavealsonotbeenbelieved.

Sara: 44:31 Yeah,yeah.Andit'saveryimportantstatementbecauseImean,ImeanImentionedthathowIlearnttonoticethewallsinmydataondiversitywork.AndIthinkthathashelpedmetoreallyhearthatthe,the,thecomplaintdata,IthinkI'veinterviewed

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nowI'm38peopleandIwillbeprobably40,41bythetimeIfinished,butI'vealsospokentomanymorepeopleinformally--

Hannah(Host): 44:54 Mmhmm.

Sara: 44:54 --ishowoftenpeopletalkaboutdoors.Thecomplaintshappenbehindcloseddoors,butalsotheshuttingofdoorsonthecomplaint.Thedifferenttechniquesandtechnologiesforstopping,notjustthecomplaintfromgettingthroughtheinstitution,butstoppingthepersonwhocarriesthecomplaint,becausewecarryourcomplaintswhetherornotwemakethem.Andoneoftheprimarywaysinwhichcomplaintsarestoppedisthroughperception,thatrenderingthecomplainantunincredible,disbeliefin,in,inwhatshehastosay.Sothe,theroleofthesepresumptionsoffraudulentsasakindofdoorthatgetsclosed.Soit'ssoimportantthatthestatement"Ibelieveyou"isanopeningofadoor.It'sasuchanimportantpoliticalactandthatiswhatallowsthecomplaintstocomethrough.Andthenpeoplethink,"wellwhyistheresomany?"There'ssomanybecausethosedoorshadbeensotightlyclosed,ittakesahugeamount.Ittakesawholepoliticalmovementtoopenadoor.AndIthinkwelearnalotfromthat.

Hannah(Host): 45:53 Okay.I'mgoingtoaskyouonelastquestion,cuzIam,I'mcognizantofthetimeandI'malso,I'mwatchinghowmuchrecordingwehaveandthinkingaboutthefactthatI'mcuttingnothingout,becauseeverythingyou'resayingissolidgold.

Sara: 46:05 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 46:05 Okay.SoasIwasreadingLivingaFeministLife,Iwasthinkingaboutthemomentof"snap"andIwasthinkingaboutyourinclusionoftime,specificallyoftakingtimeoutinyourkilljoyssurvivalkit.Andthinkingabouttheincredibledifficultyoftheworkarounddiversitythatyou'retalkingaboutholdingthesestories.Andalso,evenjustasI'msortofthinkingoutloudrightnow,thewaythatthebookasawholechartsalifeinfeminism,whichisaboutsustainabilityandlongevity.AndsoI'mwonderingifyoucouldspeakalittlebitaboutsustainingfeminism,aboutwhatitlooksliketodothiskindofwork,whichissooftenwearingoveralifetime.

Sara: 46:55 Yeah,ImeanIthinkthatissuchanimportantquestion.AndwhenIfirstconceivedatthebook,Ididn'thaveasurvivalkitoramanifestoinmyconclusion.Thatcamehalfwaythrough.Also,anditisquiteinteresting,itwas,itbeganmuchmorejustaseriesofdifferentconcepts.AndIwasgoingtohavechapters,Idon'tknowwhatIwasthinking.

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Hannah(Host): 47:14 [Laughs].

Sara: 47:14 ButIeventuallyrealizedthatactually,youknow,thequestionoflivingafeministlife,it'saverypracticalquestionofhowtogoon,howtosurviveinthefullsenseofretainingone'sprojectswhentheworldyoucomeupagainstcanoftenfeelthatittakessomuchenergyfromyoutokeepgoingtokeepthoseprojectsgoing.AndIthinkIhaveadoubleexpressioninthesurvivaltoolkitthatfeminismneedsfeministssurviveandfeministandfeminismtosurvive.

Hannah(Host): 47:45 Yeah.

Sara: 47:45 AndIthinkbothofthosereallymatter,thatformelivingafeministlifepart,partofwhat'smakesthatpossibleisthewayinwhichthroughlivingthatlifeyoudofindotherfeminists.

Hannah(Host): 47:56 Yeah.

Sara: 47:56 Justasyouweretalkingaboutthatyoufindthosethatalsosaynototheformsofviolence,thatbeingafeministispartlyaboutidentifyingandwishingtostop.Let'sjustusethatword.Wewillstopit.Wewanttostoptheviolencefromhappening.Andforme,beingafeminist,findingfeminismisalsofindingtheresourcestomake,helpmemakesenseofhowitisthatthatviolence,despitesomuchpoliticalworldandenergyandeffortkeepsongoingon.Butyouknow,atthesametime,eveniffeminism,youknow,becomestheresource,ourliferesource,itcanstillfeeldiminishingbecauseyouknow,themoreknowledgeyouhave,themoreunderstandingyouhave,themoreyouhaveasenseofjusthowmuchyoucomeupagainst.Andeachtimeyou'reupagainstoneofthosewallswhereyou'restoppedbecauseofhowyou'reperceivedfrombeing,oryou'restoppedbecauseofwhatyou'retryingtodo,eachtimeyoucanfeeljustlikethatmuchmorewearingandthatmuchmoretearing.AndIthinkI'velearnedfromthemanyfeministsaboutwhattodoaboutthatproblemwhentheworldyoucomeupagainstmakesithardertopersistwithone'sfeministprojects.Butobviouslywe'renot,obviouslyforme,AudreLorde'sCancerJournals,aincrediblebookandburstoflight,whereshe'sverytalkingaboutsurvivalforhersomebodylivingwithbreastcancer,asaBlackwomanlivinginaracistworld,asalesbian,asa,asamother,aspoet,asawarrior.Shereallygivesmeinsightsandwhatyouhavetodotomakeyoursurvivalpartofyourpolitics.

Hannah(Host): 49:29 Mmhmm.

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Sara: 49:29 Andoneofthethingsthat'sreallyinterestinginIwasrereading“TheMaster'sToolsWillNeverDismantletheMaster'sHouse”recently,partlyforabooklaunchofabookthatwasco-editedbyJasonArdayandHeidiMirzacalledDismantlingRace.Sooneofthethingsthat'sreallystrikingtome,goingbacktothatessay,wasthisisaproject,thisisaprojectfromLorde'spointofviewaboutdismantling,youknow?

Hannah(Host): 49:50 Mmhmm.

Sara: 49:50 Andshe,youknow,shejustturnsupthatthe30thanniversaryofSimonedeBeauvoir'sSecondSexandshefindsthattheonlypanelinwhichBlackfeministsarespeakingisthepanelsheetspeakingon.

Hannah(Host): 49:59 Mmhmm.

Sara: 49:59 Youknow,andshewas,she'slike,"thesearethemaster'stools."Thisisthewayinwhichthesamehouseendsupbeingassembled,usingthesamedoors,stoppingthesamepeoplefromentering.Andinthatessay,whichisaboutnotbecomingthemaster'stool,let'sputitlikethat.

Hannah(Host): 50:16 Mmhmm.

Sara: 50:16 Shealsotalksaboutsurvival.Shesays,youknow,forpoorwomen,formigrantwomen,forlesbianssurvivalisnotanacademicskill.

Hannah(Host): 50:25 Mmhmm.

Sara: 50:25 Youknow,it'ssomethingthatyouknowaboutbecauseit'swhatyou'redoinginordertogetanywhere,inordertobeanywhere.AndIthinkthatthatreallygotmethinkingagainaboutwhatshe'simplyingthere,thatactuallytheprojectoftryingtonotreproducethatworld,sameold,sameoldisaprojectofopeninguptheroomforsometobeintheworld.Andthatthesethingsareinseparable.Sothequestionofsurvival,ofbeingabletopersistwithone'sprojects,withone'sbody,withone'shistory,Ithinkofitasprobablythemostintellectualphilosophical,feministquestionthatthereis,andundoubtedlyalsoapracticalquestion.AndIdothinkthatthinkingthenabouthowmuchtimeyouhave,andshewastoo,talkedalotaboutfeelingthediagnosisinherbonesinburstsoflight.Soshesensedthatshehadthattheirtimeiswhatshedoesn'thavemuchof.That,that,thatsenseofthefinitudeofbeingthatshe'sgoingtoliveuntilshe'snolongerliving.AndIthinkwhatI

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reallywantedtotryandconveyinjustnotjustnotfollowingAudreLorde,ifthat'stooambitiousformetodescribemyownworkinthatway,butjustIthinkofitasbecomingafootnotetoward,youknow.[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 51:43 [Laughs].

Sara: 51:43 It'sjust,it'sjusthavingasenseof,okay,wellthisisthe,thefinitude.There'sonlysomuchIcando.There'sonlysomuchtimethatIhave,whatdoIneedtodotoenablemetoholdontomycommitments?AndIthink,youknow,we'veprojectslike"diversity"and"complaint",I'vereallybecomeveryawareofhowimportantitisthatyoucanbeeasilyshatteredbythehistoriesthatyouholdinabody.Thereisonlysomuchyoucantakeinandthere'sonlysomuchthatyoucantakeon.Soit'svery,veryimportanttothinkofenablingoneselftodowhatonecanbylettingoneselfnotdothings,passingyourrefusalontoothers.Ifyoucannotholdon,youpassiton.Andthatisalsoanotherwayofthinkingaboutfeministinheritanceand,and,andfeministsurvivalisthinkingabouttheworkofpassingitonandgivingoneselftimeouttolive.

Hannah(Host): 52:39 Yeah.

Sara: 52:39 Imean,Ithink,Ialwaysrememberwatchingthefilm,Ithinkit'sTheBerlinYearswithAudre,andshewas,whenshewasinBerlinandshe'snotwell.She'snotwellinthatscene.Butthey're,they'reeating,Ithinkthateatingisitbeetroot?Andit'sasceneofthese,theseincrediblewomen,mainlyBlackwomen,togethereatingthisbeetroot.Andit'sjust,it'sjusttheabsolutedelightintheordinaryjoysofnourishment,andthecollectivityofthatthing,thatlike[unclear]becomesomuchaboutwhatwedotonourisheachother,tosustaineachother.Anditwasa,itwassucha,abeautifulscene.NotInanyromanticizingway,youknow,lifecanbeshittyeveninthesespaces[laughs].

Hannah(Host): 53:25 [Laughs]Yeah.

Sara: 53:25 Butjustbecauseitwaslikethe,thecareandtheattentiontoeatingthisdelightfulthingwellandtogether.AndIthinkformeoursurvivalandourownsurvivalisabouttakingthetimeoutfromalwaysfeelingthatwehavetofight.Andpartoftakingthattimeoutfromfighting,isalsowhatwecantake,whatwecandigestandhowwedothatthebestwecan.

Hannah(Host): 53:51 Wonderful.Thankyousomuch.

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Sara: 53:53 Ithinkitwas,Ithinkitwasbeetroot,nowI'mjust...[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 53:56 [Laughs]I'll,I'llfactcheckit.That'swhyIhaven't,Ihaven'twatchedit,butthatevokedsomuchforme.The,Ihaveread,AudreLorde'sCancerJournals.MymotherdiedofcancerwhenIwas16andsoalotofthosesortofformativeyearsformewere,weresortof,youknow,themajorfeministfigureinmylifewasalsodying.Andthere'sa,apartinthesurvivalkitwhereyoutalkaboutdancing.

Sara: 54:25 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 54:25 AndIhavethesevividmemoriesofdancingwithherandshehadanoxygen,oxygentubeinhernoseandcouldonlystandforacoupleofminutesatatime,butwouldstillgetuptodance.Andthatyouknowthatliketheworldcanwearyoudown,buttostillfindthosemomentsorthosepossibilitiesofthatkindofembodiedpleasure,Ithinkreallyis,eveninthemidstofdeath,Ithinkreallyisawayofsurviving.

Sara: 54:50 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 54:50 Thankyousomuch.[Music:ThickSkin"byLeonaLewis]

Sara: 55:14 IfyouwanttolearnmoreaboutSarahAhmed.YoucanfollowheronTwitteratSarahandAhmedorcheckoutherwebsiteatSarahnAhmedthat'ssaranahmed.comandyoucanalsofindherblogatfeministkilljoys.com.YoucanfindallofthoselinksandshownotesandalloftheepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpmcgregorandyoucantweetaboutthepodcastusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Andyoucanandshouldreviewtheshow.TherearetwonewreviewscominginfromCanadathisweek.OnefromHannahBalesandtheotherfromTheMstack,assumingthat'showeitherofthosearepronounced.Thankyoubothsomuch.Thepodcastthemesongis“MeshShirt”byMomJeansofftheiralbumChubRub,andyoucandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Sarah'sthemesongwas"ThickSkin"byLeonaLewis.SecretFeministAgendaisrecordedonthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhfirstnationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[Music:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]