Cyrus R. Vance Oral History Interview- JFK #1, 8/3/1964 Administrative Information Creator: Cyrus R. Vance Interviewer: Joseph Califano Date of Interview: August 3, 1964 Place of Interview: Arlington, Virginia Length: 51 pp. Biographical Note Vance, Cyrus R.; General Counsel, Department of Defense (1961); Secretary of the Army (1961-1963). Vance discusses his role in John F. Kennedy’s [JFK] presidential campaign (1960) and his position as General Counsel. He covers the riots surrounding the enrollment of James Meredith to the University of Mississippi, and discusses JFK’s decisions to use armed forces in order to maintain order throughout this situation, among other issues. Access Restrictions No restrictions. Usage Restrictions According to the deed of gift signed May 30, 1990, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be “used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research.” If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of “fair use,” that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.
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Cyrus R. Vance Oral History Interview- JFK #1, 8/3/1964 · The individua l doing the interviewing is myself, Joseph Califano. CALIFANO: VANCE: Mr. Va nce, when did you first meet
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Transcript
Cyrus R. Vance Oral History Interview- JFK #1, 8/3/1964
Administrative Information
Creator: Cyrus R. Vance
Interviewer: Joseph Califano
Date of Interview: August 3, 1964
Place of Interview: Arlington, Virginia
Length: 51 pp.
Biographical Note
Vance, Cyrus R.; General Counsel, Department of Defense (1961); Secretary of the
Army (1961-1963). Vance discusses his role in John F. Kennedy’s [JFK] presidential
campaign (1960) and his position as General Counsel. He covers the riots surrounding the
enrollment of James Meredith to the University of Mississippi, and discusses JFK’s
decisions to use armed forces in order to maintain order throughout this situation, among
other issues.
Access Restrictions
No restrictions.
Usage Restrictions
According to the deed of gift signed May 30, 1990, copyright of these materials has been
assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to
determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish.
Copyright
The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making
of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions
specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other
reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is
not to be “used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research.” If a
user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in
excesses of “fair use,” that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution
reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the
order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection
to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your
questions concerning copyright to the reference staff.
Transcript of Oral History Interview
These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room
of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character
recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts.
Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have
occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any
concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the library and consult the
transcripts and the interview recordings.
Suggested Citation
Cyrus R. Vance, recorded interview by Joseph Califano, August 3, 1964, (page number),
John F. Kennedy Oral History Program.
NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATI ON JOHN F. KENNEDY LIBRARY
Legal Agreement Pertaining to the Ora l History Interviews of Cyrus R. Vance
In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of Title 44, United states Code, and subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth, I, Cyrus R. Vance do hereby give, donate, and convey to the United states of America all my rights , title, and interest in the tape recording and transcript of personal interviews conducted on August 3, 1964 at Washington, D. C. and prepared for deposit in the John F. Kennedy Library. This assignment is subject to the following terms and conditions:
( 1 ) The transcript shall be made available for use by researchers as soon as it has been deposited in the John F. Kennedy Library .
(2) The tape recording shall be made available to those researchers who have access to the transcript.
(3) I hereby assign to the United States Government all copyright I may have in the interview transcri pt and tape.
(4) Copies of the transcript and the tape r ecording may be provided by the Library to researchers upon request.
(5) Copies deposited in or Kennedy Library.
of the transcripi and tape recording may be John F.
Archivist of the United States
?&&
Cyrus R. Vance
Table of Contents
Page Topic
1 Vance’s initial interactions with John F. Kennedy [JFK]
3 Vance’s participation in JFK’s presidential campaign, 1960
3 Vance as General Counsel of the Department of Defense during
the Kennedy Administration
5 JFK’s defense policies
7 The “Oxford situation,” 1962: James Meredith and the
University of Mississippi
19 JFK’s signing of the Proclamation and Executive Order
regarding the “Oxford situation”
41, 50 Reflection on, and reassessment of, the “Oxford situation”
CALIFANO: This is an interview with Cyrus R . Vance, General
Counsel of the Department of Defense from J anuary 29, 196 1 until July 4,
1962. On July 5, 19 62, he was sw orn in as Secretary of the Army and
remained in that post until January 28 , 1964. On J a nuary 28, 1964 , he
was sworn in as Deputy Secretary of Defense, a post h e now holds. Today's
date is August 3, 1964, and the interview is being conducted in Secretary
Vance's office. The individua l doing the interviewing is myself, Joseph
Califano.
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Mr. Va n ce, when did you first meet President Kennedy ?
I fi rst met Preside n t K ennedy, I b e lieve, i n Februa ry
of 1942. At that time I was about to go into the Navy and was awaiting a
definite date on which I was to r eport. I went down during the month of
February to Charleston, South Carolina, to the wedding of a good friend
and former roommate of mine, Stanl ey R e sor. At the wedding there wa s
a young naval officer w ho was introduced as Ensign Kennedy. H e was a
slim, shy and attractive y oung man. We spent, I would guess, about
15 or 20 minutes together talking about the Navy and his tour in Charleston
where I believe he was awaiting a ship. I didn't see him again until after
he was nominated for the Preside ncy. At that time I met him at a dinner
which was held at The River Club i n New York at which he asked a number
of lawyers and businessmen in the New York area to meet wi th him to
discuss prospects for the coming campaign.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, when was the first time you met
President Kennedy a ft e r he was elected Pre sident?
VANCE: After he was elected President, the first time I met
him was a t a swearing-in ceremony at the White Ho use . At t hat time he
swore in about t e n of us. I can recall t hat Byron White wa s the re, and
also fr om the Defense Department Tom Morris, Charlie Hitch, Paul Nitze
and m y self. The swearing-in took place at about 5:00 o'clock in the
afternoon a t a ceremony in the East Room . The President not only invited
a ll o f those who we re to be sworn i n but also their wives and children. My
wife and our two e ldes t daughte rs went with me t o the swearing-in. A fte r
the swearing-in, the Pres ident and his wife greeted a ll of the gue sts,
which wa s a great thrill not only t o those w ho we r e bein g s w orn in but to
their families as well.
CALIFANO: Do you remember anything the President s aid to you
a t that time?
VANCE: I b e lieve the only thing he said at that time was,
"Cy , I a m awfully glad to see you and I am delighted that you are going to
b e working with us. 11
CALIFANO: I might just go back for a m inute. Did you have any
contact with Pre sident K e nne dy between the time he spoke to you at The River
Club and the time he swore you in?
VANCE: No, I didn't have .
2
CALIFANO: Did you do any work for the Preside nt during the
campaign?
VANCE: Yes, I did some work during the campaign. I
participated in furnishing ideas with respect to the Defense program
which I transmitted to S enator Symington who at that time was working on
a report for the President in the Defense area.
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
ministration:
VANCE:
Was that the limit of your activity?
Yes, plus soliciting s ome funds for the campaign.
How did you come to be a part o f the Kennedy Ad-
I recall this rather vividly. I believe it was Friday
before Christma s o f 19 60 that I r eceived a t e lephone call late in the afternoon
from Ros Gilpatric, who was a lawyer in New York and a friend with w hom
I had worked on a number of l egal matters. Ros said that he had just come
back from out of town and had a matter which he would like to discuss with
me the next morning if I could stop by his house. At that time Ros had
already been designated as the prospective Deputy Sec retary of Defense,
so that I thought that it might have something to do with possibly going down
to Washington to work for the Defense Department. The next morning I
went down to Ros' house and met with him in his living room. Ros said
that he and Bob McNamara had bee n meeting to select those who were to
work with them in the new administration at the Defense Department, and
they would like very much for me to join them as General Counsel. Ros
3
then got out an organization chart and went over it with me, pointing out
those w h o m they were going to a sk to f ill the various spots . H e s a id he
thought t hat the post of G ene r a l Couns e l would be a ve r y interes ting one .
He pointed out tha t it cover e d a wide gambit of activities a nd that it would
not be confined t o l e ga l work. H e s aid that h e h oped that I woul d accept the
invitation to join t he Defense team as G e n e r a l Counsel and to w ork closely
with him and Secretary McNa mara. He ask e d that I consider this very
car e fully and let him know the next Wednesday if I c ould possibly do so.
We the n spe nt about an hour discussing Defens e problems, afte r which I
went home t o mull over the tough decision of whether o r not I should give
up the p r actice of l aw a nd c ome down to Washington. Over t h e Christmas
holidays I had numerous conve rsations w i th my wife, Gay, at which we
discussed the pros and cons of going down to wo rk for the Gove rnment. I
believe it wa s on Monday that I r eached a final de ci s ion, that I would go
down to Washington if appointed, and called Ros t o tell him that I would be
most happy to come and work with him a nd Secretary McNamara.
CALIFANO: When, Mr . V a nce , did you first meet Secretary
McNa m a r a ?
VANCE: I believe it was on January 4th. Mr. McNamara had
been skiing at Aspen and wa s due to r e turn o n the 4th. A few days befor e
that, Ros called me and told me that Mr. McNamara would be back on the
4th and asked me to fly down and meet with him and Secretary McNamara
that day. A s I r e c a ll it, I caught an early morning plane fr o m New York,
4
flew into National Airport and came over to the Pentagon to Ros Gilpatric's
office. After talking to R os for a few minutes , we went into an office which
is adjacent to that of the Secretary of Defense and met Mr. McNamara.
We had a conversation of 15 or 20 minutes, a fter which time I went back
with Ros to his office. In the course of the conversation Mr. McNamara
had asked me if I would come and work as General Counsel of the Defense
Department. I told him that I would be delighted to do so and looked forward
very much to working with him and Ros. Shortly thereafter, Ros took me
down and introduced me to the then current General Counsel, Mr. Vince
B u rke, who filled m e in on the duties of my ~pective office. Mr. B u rke
also set me up in an office adjacent to his, w here I proceeded to dive i nto a
host of papers to try and fill m y self in on the dutie s of the General Counsel
and my upcoming activiti es for the next seve ral years.
CALIFANO: One more question about this ea rly period. At that
meeting with Secretary McNamara or in any of the pre-January 20 days ,
did he tell you about President Kennedy's Defense policies or Defense ideas?
VANCE: Yes, we did have , I believe, several discussions of
President Kennedy's Defense policies. These were views which I was ex
tremely glad to hear because my views happened to coincide with those of
President Kennedy. I had felt very strongly that our Defens e policies in
the past were not adequate and that a major reshaping of those Defense
policies was n ece ssary.
5
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, what did Secretary McNamara indicate
were Pre sident Kennedy's policies?
VANCE: He said that President Kennedy felt very strongly
that in the past we had shaped our Defense policies on the basis of arbi
trary budgetary decisions rather than on what was required. He said
President Kennedy had made it very clear that we in the Defense Department
were to come up with a statement of our requirements, and that the money
would then be appropriated to meet those requirements. He further pointed
out that President Kennedy felt strongly that our current strategy was
n a rrow, that it did not provide for flexible r e sponses to varying situations,
and that it would be necessary to do some very hard thinking on how to
reshape our strategic concepts.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, did President Kennedy have any specific
ideas of the vast reorganization changes brought about by S ec reta ry McNa mara
in those early days?
VANCE : To the best of my know l edge, the details and the
scope of the proposed reorganization were not discussed in any detail.
Rather, certain fundamental principles were agreed upon, and it was left
to Secretary McNamara to develop the full scope and details of the proposed
changes.
CALIFANO: Two more questions about the early days. Did
Secreta ry McNamara tell you of any of President Kennedy's views about
eith e r the Service Secretaries or the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
6
VANCE: No, I don't believe he ever told me at that time
e ~President Kenne dy 1 s vie ws on tho se two subjects .
CALIFANO: Why don 't w e move now to the s i tuation in Oxford,
Mississippi.
VANCE: I'd be delighted to.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, what was the first involvement o f the
Army vis- a -vis the Oxford crisis?
VANCE: The first r ecollection I have of any connection w i t h
the Ox fo rd crisis wa s a meeting which I had w ith Mr. Katzenbach o n
September 5 th , which I believe was just two days afte r L a b or Day.
CALIFANO: 19 62.
VANCE: Yes, in 1962.
CALIFANO: And y ou wer e the n S e cre ta r y of the A rmy ?
VANCE: At that point I was Se cretary of the Army, and Nick
Katzenbach called me and asked if he could come ove r and see me about a
p otentia l problem. I told him I would be delight ed to see him and he came
ove r that morning as I r ecall it. H e told me that we were about to face what
might be a very di fficult problem arising out of the enrollment of J ames
M e redith in the University of Mississippi a t Oxford. He outlined in general
terms what the problem was we faced. H e indicated that he believed that
Governor Barnett and the Sta t e officials would try to prevent Meredith from
enr olling in the University, and t hat it might be necessary to use Government
7
forces t o enforce the court orders if the Gove rnor failed to carry them out.
As I r ecall it, we d i scussed the problem in general terms and ag r eed tha t it
would be necessar y to embark upon joint planning to make s ure that we woul d
b e fully prepared if the situa tion should develop as he feared it might.
CALIFANO: Did you talk at t hat point whether o r not you would use
R e gular Army troops or the Mississippi National Guard?
VANCE: No, we didn 1t. It was j ust a general dis c ussion at
that time with no discussion of the types of troops that might have to be used.
CALIFANO: Was that a bout what was cov e r ed w i th Mr. Katzenbach
at that meeting?
VANCE: Yes , as I recall it, i t was. I think we a lso discussed
who woul d work on the devel opment of the n ecessary plan, and I indicate d to
him t hat I would l et him know as soon as I had a ch ance to do a little fu r the r
work on it and discuss it with the Chief of Staff. As I r e call it, I called him
either the next day or the day the r eafter and told him that you, Joe Califano,
and Creighton Abrams would be the two people charged with working directly
with the Department of J ustice in developing our plans to meet the Oxford
situation.
CALIFANO : Who was Chief of St a ff of the Army at that t ime ?
VANCE: At that time G eorge Decker was Chief of Staff of the
Army. G ene ral Wheele r ha d a lready b een announced a s the prospective new
Chief of Staff but he was n ot actually Chief of Staff.
8
CALIFANO:
VANCE :
What was your next contact with the Oxford situation?
I believe I had a number of telephone calls off and on
over the next week or so with Nick Katzenbach and with Burke Marshall,
who was another Ass i stant Attorney G ene r al. And then I have a recollection
of a m e eting with B urke Marshall in my office on September 14th. As I
recall it, you were present, along with General Abrams and, I believe,
either General Wheeler or General Decker or both of them. At that time
I believe we got into a discussion of more detailed plans for the Oxford
situation.
CALIFANO: Did you then discus s t he use of R e gular Army force s
and National Guard troops?
VANCE: Y es. I think we discussed at that time the possibility
of usi ng either one or two types of forces: (1) Regular Army forces and
(2) National Guard forces. We discussed the pros and cons o f using either
type of troops and did not arrive at any conclusion.
CALIFANO: At that meeting did Burke Marshall in any way indi cate
what he thought the President1 s views were, or w hat the President had told
him or the Justice Department?
VANCE: With respect to what?
CALIFANO: With respect to the use of F ederal troops.
VANCE: As I r ecall it, there was a discussion on that subject,
and Mr. Marshall indicated that the President hoped that it would not be
necessary to use any Federal troops, but that h e was dete rmined to see that
the court orders were carri ed out, a nd that if required troops would be used.
9
CALIFANO: What resulted from tha t meeting, Mr. Vance?
VANCE: As a r esult of that meeting, further detailed planning
was undertaken. in close cooperation with the Department of Justice . This
planning went on for a period of approximately two weeks, during which
increasingly detailed plans were drawn up to meet the various contingencies
which might arise. During the latter part of this two- week period, the
situation increased in pace in the Mississippi area, with various maneuverings
between the Governor and his staff in attempting to block Mr. M e redith's
efforts to seek and obtain ad.mission to the University.
CALIFANO: During this period which, say, takes us up to about
the 26th of September, or close to the week end of the 29th, did you have
any contact with the President on this subject?
VANCE: No, I did not have any direct con tact with the President
on it; however, I had very close contact with the Attorney G eneral, Robert
Kennedy.
CALIFANO: What were his views during this period?
VANCE: His views were very clear, that he hoped we would
not have to use either Federal troops or National Guard units to bring about
the enrollment of James Meredith, but that we would take whatever steps
were required to make sure that the court orders were carried out.
CALIFANO: I s it fair to say that as early as Septembe r 14th, or
even September 5th, it was clear to you that the policy of the Administration
and the President was that Federal troops would be used if necessary?
10
VANCE: Yes, it was clear to me from the start that Federal
troops would be used if required.
CALIFANO: Getting into the time immediately preceding the
week end, do you have specific r ecolle ctions of m eetings with the Attorney
General, or plans that were drawn for Mr. Meredith to enter the University
of Mississippi?'
VANCE: Yes. I recall a meeting held at the Department of
Justice on September 28th at about 1:30 p . m. At that meeting we r eviewed
the detailed plan and discussed in some considerable detail whether o r not
we should use Regular Army troops or National Guard troops in the event
it should b e come n ecessary.
CALIFANO: What was the importanc e of the dis tinction between
these troops?
VANCE: The importance of the distinction b etween the troops
was the r eaction that it might bring about in the State of Mississippi. On
the one hand, there were those who felt that it would be much easier to use
Regular Army troops because they were trained for riot control action,
because their discipline was excellent, and because the chain of command
would be clear and precise. On the other hand, it was argued that intro-
ducing Regular Army troops into the State of Mississippi would bring a
very strong adverse reaction from the l ocal citizens who might claim that
this was an invasion of the State of Mississippi by Federal authorities . In
this connection we discussed at great length the lessons l earne d during the
11
Little Rock in cide nt. In this connection G ene ral Wheeler was of great h e lp,
having s e rved as G e neral Taylor's special r epresentative at Little Rock.
CALIFANO: Were any de ci sions m a de about the use o f e ither
National Guard or Regular Army troops on F r i day, the 28th o f S e ptembe r?
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
No . No final decision wa s reac h e d at that time.
Were any troops alerted for action at that time?
Yes . By that time I b e liev e we had placed on a lert
two task forces. I believe they were task forces Alfa and Bravo. One of
the se task forces was built around an MP c ompany - - I believe it was the
503d from F ort Bragg. And the oth e r wa s built around a battle group fr om
the S econd Infantry Divis ion. I believe it was the 503d Battalion r ather
than company from F ort Bra gg that I mentioned.
CALIFANO: What we re the pla ns, if the r e w ere specific plans a t
this time, for placing M e r edith at the University o f Mississippi?
VANCE: The plans were as follow s : A large numbe r of Federal
marshals were to go to Mississippi. They we r e to be s tationed a t a place
called Holly Springs , which was, I believe, some 15 or 20 miles from the
town of Oxford. This would be their home camp. They would be available
there to be used if required to a ssist Meredith in e nrolling at the campus.
The plan was that the Justice D e partment officials, toge the r w ith the marshals,
would s eek to register Meredith, using t he smallest number possible. If
they w ere turned back by the Governor o r the Lieutenant Governor , they
would then increase the number of marshals and try again. As I r e call it,
12
we eventually planned for about 200 marshals to be p r e s ent who would be
on call to assist.
CALIFANO: Were any dates set for regi stering Meredith a t the
University at this time?
VANCE: Yes. Seve r a l dates had been s et; however, with
respect to each of these dates the Army was not to play a ny part. During
this period of time , registration was to be accomplished by Mr. Meredith
going with a r e presentative of the Department of Justice plus one or more
m a rshals who would see k to a chieve his enrollment.
CALIFANO: Do you know what date wa s s e t? You said several.
Wa s there a ny agre ement by Friday, the 28th of S e ptember, o n w hen
Meredith would be brought to the Unive rsity?
VANCE: As I re call it, M e r e dith had b een brought to the
University once or twice by that time , and I believe on the 28th we agreed
that Meredith would b e brought back again on Monday, w hich would be,
I b elieve, the first of Octobe r, a nd was to be enr olled at a bout 12:00 o'clock
noon.
CALIFANO: We re you under the impression on the 28th of
S e ptember that the President was in close touch with the situa tion in
m aking the decision?
VANCE: Yes, the President was in very close touch with the
situation. He was discussing the matter v e ry frequently with his brothe r,
13
the Attorney G e neral , and with Nick Katzenba ch a nd Burke Marshall.
CALIFANO :
that time?
VANCE:
S e pte mber 29th.
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
Had he discussed the situation with y o u at all a t
No. I did n ot meet with the Pre sident until
Whic h was the next day.
That was the next day.
Who was present at the m eeting with the Pre sident
and what took place there?
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
As I recall it, i mmedia t e ly prior to the meeting ---
A nd why was the meeting called? Excu s e me.
A s I r ecall it, immediately p rior t o the mee ting
at about 11: 15 , I met with G eneral Whee l e r and w ith G enera l Abrams to
dis cuss the propose d plan s for Monday. One of the issues w hic h we
discussed at tha t time was the possible use of Nationa l Gua rd t r oops as
opposed to R e gular Army troops. One of the main purposes of the
meeting with the President was to dis c uss this issue , as well a s to
r e view our over- all plans for the next M onday.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance , w hat took place a t you r meet ing with
the President, or the meeting preceding it in preparation for tha t
meeting?
14
VANCE: At the meeting with the President we first reviewed
the proposed plan of action for next Monday. I believe the Attorney General
outlined the proposed plan, and then both General Wheeler and I commented
on the pla n.
CALIFANO: Did the Attorney Gene ral outline the plan essentially
as you just outlined it here?
VANCE: He outlined it essentially as follows: That we would
preposition our Regular Army units at the Memphis Air Station and would
hold them in reserve. In the meantime, we would move down to Holly
Springs the marsha ls who w ould be on hand. The marshals would go
with Meredith to t h e camp us and s eek to accomplish the enrollment. If
any thing went w rong we would then use whatever troops were requir e d. In
the meantime, we had also decided to alert, if nece ssary, elements of the
Mississippi National Guard. We would the n be a ble to make a decision as
to w hether or not we would use only Regular Army troops, or whether we
would use National Guard troops, or whether we would use both.
CALIFANO: What were your comments, or General Wheeler's
comments, on the plan as outlined by the Attorney General?
VANCE: We both said that we agreed with the proposed plan.
I mentioned the fact that Senator Stennis had spoken to me and had said that
he was greatly concerned about the way the situation was developing, and
had urged very strongly that if it were necessary to use troops, we should
not use National Guard troops because of the reaction that this would have
in Mississippi.
15
CALIFANO: I thought that you said earlier you thought the use
of Mississippi National Guard troops might be easier on the State of
Miss i ssippi than the intr oduct ion of R e gular Army troops.
VANCE: The re were those who b elievedthat this would be the
case . On the other hand, Senato r Stennis felt very strongly that the
converse would be true.
CALIFANO: Before we go into further details of the meeting, do
you remember who else was there? You indicated that you were present,
the President, the Attorney General, and General Wheeler.
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
Mr. McNamara and B urke Marshall were also present.
What happened after you commented on the Attorney
General 1 s outline of the plan?
VANCE: We discussed at some l e ngth the pros and cons of
using National Guard units, and no fin a l decision was reached as to whether
or not we would use National Guard t roops in the event that troops were
r equired.
CALIFANO: Do you remember what the President said at that
meeting:
VANCE: No, othe r than to ask our various views with r espect
to this issue and the adequacy of the plans.
CALIFANO: But was it clear at this meeting that he had r eached
no decision with respect to what troops to u se?
VANCE: It was clear that he had not reached a decision as to
what troops to use.
16
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Did he seem to be on top of the entire situation?
Yes, he certainly did .
Was anything e lse discussed a t the meeting?
No. As I recall it, having approved the proposed
plan we decided to keep in close touch the rest of the afternoon to see what
developed.
CALIFANO: How long did the meeting last, Mr . Vance?
VANCE: I believe that I got back to the Pentagon about 1:30
and had lunch i n the Army Dining Room with G eneral Wheeler and others.
I do recall that a b out 2: 30 that afternoon I met with Gene r a l Abrams again
to review the situation, and made several telephone calls to Nick Katzenbach
to find how the situation was deve loping i n Mississippi. I also r ecall that
during the afternoon I met with you and I believe Ted Decke r to go over a
proposed Proclamation and Executive Order. At that time Ted Decker was
the Judge Advocate General of the Army and you we re General Counsel of
the Army.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, you met to go over a proposed Executive
Order. Was this Executive Order in the hands of the President at this time?
VANCE: I do not b e lieve it was in the hands of the President.
This Executive Order and Proclamation had been wo rked on several days,
however, by the Army and the Departm e nt of Justice, and we were at this
point virtually agreed on its final form.
17
CALIFANO: Did a nything else s ignificantly happe n that Sa turday
afternoon?
VANCE: Yes. After meeting with you and T ed Deck e r , we
talked again with, I b elieve, Nick Katze nbach and Burke Marshall a t the
Department o f Justic e and ag r eed upo n the final fo r m of the Proclamation
and Executive Order. Later that afternoon, I went over to the Capi tol at
the request of Senator Stennis to meet with him. Senator Stennis repe ated
to me his c oncern about the situation in Mississippi and again urged that
National Guard troops not b e used. I told him tha t we wer e fully cognizant
of his views in this r e gard a nd h ad, in fact , discussed them at a m eeting
with the President.
CALIFANO : Mr. Vance, did you then go home?
VANCE: No, I c a me back to t h e office and worked o n t h e variou s
plans to m a k e sure that everything was in order for t he next day. As I
reca ll it , we had determined at that time to move T ask Force Alfa into
Memphis and set up our h eadquarter s there. We had also had discussions
w ith the Department of Justice as to what our setup would b e in Oxford.
It h a d b e en determined that we would use the Marshal's office, which was
in t he basement of the F ederal Building the re as I r e call it, to be the local
h eadquarters. As I recall it, L o u Oberdorfer, another Assistant Attorney
G e neral, was to be pre sent a s the senio r p e rson at that office. We had
some discussion as to wha t communications we could introduce into the
Oxford area prior to M o nday , and it had bee n daermined that the only
18
communications which we could put in was a SCAN line from the
Marshal's office back to the Naval Air Station at M emphis.
CALIFANO: What w a s the rea s o n for t hat, Mr. V a nce?
VANCE: It w a s felt that to put in a large mobile communica -
tions unit might exac e rba t e the situation in Oxford. In addi tion , t h ere
was a small mobile communications setup at the so-called tent camp
at Holly Springs where the marshals were to b e billeted. I believe the
marshals 1 camp had been set up on about Friday, and I believe that a
M a jor Christopherson wa s the enginee r in charge of s e tting up the
t ent camp and providing faciliti es for the marshals .
CALIFANO: Do e s thi s a bout sum up your activi ties o n Saturday
a fte rnoon?
VANCE: No , I a m afra id it doe s n 1t. I fina lly got away from
the office about 8:30 that night . I wa s supposed to go t o dinn e r a t J e eb
Halaby 1 s. Je eb was the Admin istrator of the Federa l Aviation Authority,
a nd I was supposed to get the r e at 7:30 but didn't arrive until about 8:30 .
During the cou rse of the dinner I rece ive d two phone calls. I believe the
first phone call was from Nick Katzenbach and the second was from the
Attorney General. Nick called to say that things we re not developing well
and that it looked as though the Preside nt might have to sign the Proclamation
and Exe cutive Order that evening. He aske d if we were all set to go if
this should happen, and I said that we w e re. Shortly thereafter, the
Attorney Genera l called me a nd confi rme d that the Pre sident w a s thi nki ng
19
of signing the Proclamation a nd Executive Order that night. H e said he
would call me back as soon a s he g o t further info r mation. At about 10: 30
I got a s econd phone call from th e Attorney General, who said the
President would sign the Proclama tio n and Executive Order that night .
I told him that I was going to go back to my office a n d pick up a copy of
the Order to be signed by Mr. M c Namara and w ould go ove r to his hou se
a nd stand by awaiting the President's signing of the Proclamation and the
Executive Order.
I went back to the P e ntagon from the H a labys by car. My wife drove
me over and left me off there. I w e nt i nto my safe a nd got out a copy of
the Pro clamation and Executive O rder to be signed by the Pre sident, plus
the original of the Orde r to be signe d by Mr. McNamara implementi ng the
Preside nt 's Exe c utive Order. Jim B a ldwin, my Military As sistant , had
a rrived back at the P entagon , a nd he a nd I gci i n a car togethe r and d r ove
over to Mr. McNamara's hous e . As I reca ll it, we a rrived shortly befor e
12:00 o' clock. Mr . McNamara and I got on a phone t o the White House
a nd were informe d when the Preside nt signe d the Proclamation and
Executive Orde r . Imme diate ly the r eafter, Mr. McNama r a signed an
Orde r impleme nting the Exec utive Order w hich the President had signed.
The Executive Orde r signed by the President instr ucted the Secretar y
of De fense to take a ll action necessa ry to enforce the court orders a nd
to remove any obstructions to justice. It further provid e d that h e could
use such R egul ar Army forc es and Air forces, in addition to any National
20
Guard units which were federalized by the Order, to carry out the
mandate of the Executive O rder.
When Mr. McNamara signed this Order, I left and returned to
the Pentagon. At the Pentagon I called the White House to find the
number of the Executive Order, w h ich I then filled in by pen in the Order
already signe d by Mr. McNamara. We then prepared a t e legram to the
Governor of Mississippi and to the Adjutan t General of the State of
Mississippi, which r eci ted the Proclamation and Executive Order signed
by the President and the Order signed by Mr. McNamara. This tel egram
thus notified the Governo r and the A djutant G ener al that the Army and Air
National Guards of the State of Mis sissippi had been called to F ede r a l
active duty effective as o f 0002 on the 30th of S eptember.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, two points w e should pick up. Did
Mr. McNama r a say anything when he signed the memorandum delegating
authority to you?
VANCE: No, he did not s ay anything about the memor a ndum
to me, but he did comment on a provision of the E xecutive Order. I've
forgotten which paragraph it was, but I believe it was either paragraph
numbered 1 or 2 . He asked if it we re clear under the terms of this
pa ragraph a s to w ho had the r e sponsibility to carry out the purposes of
the Executive Order. H e s a id that h e thought there might be a question
as to whethe r or not the full authority r ested in the Se cretar y of Defense
in light of the language used in the E xecutive O rder . We discussed this
~ , . 21
and determined that it wa s sufficiently clear to show that the a uthority
wa s vested in th e Secretary of Defense.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, was this a change in the timing of the
Oxford scenario a s you developed i t Saturday afternoon?
VANCE : It wa s a cha nge i n tha t we had not expected that it
would be n ece ssary to issue a Proclamation and Exe cutive Order on
Saturday night. It was thought that if it we r e to be issue d it would probably
b e issued on Sunday.
CALIFANO : Are you aware of the exact reason w hy the President
decided to do this Satu r day n ight?
VANCE:
Governor B a rnett .
CALIFANO:
VANCE :
actions.
CALIFANO:
I believe it was becaus e of certain actions taken by
Do yo u have any recollection of wha t those actions we r e?
At this time I cannot recall the precise nature of those
Incide ntally, Mr . Vance, up to this time had you had
any other communications with Governor Barnett other than the telegra m
you s ent him?
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
No, I had no communications with Governor Barnett.
What did you do afte r you sent the t e l egr a m out?
I then met w ith Gene ral Greenlie f and other members
of the Army Sta ff to review the troop listsof the Mississippi Na tiona l Guar~
22
both Army and Air. As I recall it, we spent over an hour r eviewing the
troop lists to asce rta in where a ll of the units were l ocated and the a pproxi
mate movement times which would be r equired to move these units from
their home stations to Oxford. We also dis cussed the q ue stion of how
m uch time would be required in terms of a lert for these va rious units.
CALIFANO: Do you have a recollection of how many men were in
the Mississippi National Guard at this time?
VANCE: My recollecti on is that it was somewhere in the
neighborhood of 10 , 000.
CALIFANO: Wh at did you then do, M r . Vance?
VANCE: At that time I went home a nd left G e neral Greenlie f
and some othe r members of the Army Staff in the Army War R oom, who
w e r e finishing up on the paper w o rk that was r e qui red in connection w i t h
the call-up .
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Were there any Army troops in Oxford at this time ?
There were no Army troops in Oxford at this time .
T here was a cavalry troop-I believe Troop E--of the Na tional Guard
which had its h e adquarters in Oxford, but the r e were no Regul a r Army
troops there . A s I previously indicated, there wer e a few engineer s outside
of Oxford at the Holly Springs camp.
CALIFANO: When did you return to your office, or when was the
next contact on Sunday, Se ptember 30, w ith the Oxfor d situation?
23
VANCE: As I r ecall it, on Sunday morning General Wheeler
and I went over to the Attorney General's office and discussed with him
the steps which we could anticipate during the next 48 hours. At that
time, we envisaged that Meredith would be returned to Oxford at about
noon on Monday to be enrolled at the Univers ity. After our meeting at
the Attorney General's office, G eneral Wheeler a nd I came on back to
the P entagon and I went to my office. As I recall it, General Wheeler
and I spent half an hour or so discussing our plans , and the n he went
home for lunch and I stayed on at the Pentagon.
CALIFANO: What did you d o at the P e ntagon, Mr. Vance?
VANCE: As I recall it, I got out the troop lists and the outline
plan and reviewed them once again. I then stood by to hear from the
Atto rney Gene ral on how things we r e developing during the day.
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, w hen did you next hea r from the Attorney
General, or what was the next action you took in connection with the Oxford
situation?
VANCE : As I recall it, I h eard from the Attorney General at
about 1:30 . Under t h e plans which were about to go into effect, the Army
had ordered the Commanding Officers of three Mississippi Guard units
to report to General Billingslea, who was Assistant Division Commander
of the 2d Infantry Division, to report to him in Memphis at 1600 on the
afternoon of September 30th. My r ecollection is that the Attorney General
called me at about 1: 30 saying that it had been determined to move the
24
marshals fr om M emphis into the tent camp that day. I discuss ed this
with him and suggeste d that he get in touch directly with Ge neral Abrams,
who was at Memphis a s the Chief of Staff's personal representative. In
cidentally, General Abrams is now the Vice Chief of St a ff of the Army ,
to s ucceed General Hamlett on Septemb er first . After the Attorney
Gene ral hung up, I sent a message to G e neral A b rams telling him that
he would rece ive a call from th e Atto rne y General setting forth the plans
w ith r esp e ct to t he movement of the marshals fr om M emphis to Oxfo rd
that afternoon.
CALIFANO: Were the mars hals moved as planned?
VANCE: Yes, the marshals were moved as planne d to Ox ford
tha t aftern oon . I ncidentally, Genera l Abrams had gone down to Memphis
a t 10:0 0 o' clock on Sunday morning and he arrived there about 12:00 n oon,
as I r ecall it. The marshals we r e met at the a irport by, I believe, five
trucks from the tent camp at H o lly Springs . They we r e then to be trucked
from the a irport over to Holly Springs.
CALIFANO: Mr. V a nce, w hat was your next contact o r action that
y o u took in connection with the Oxford situation?
VANCE: My r ecollection i s that at about 5: 30 in the afte rnoon
I r eceived word that it ha d been d etermined to m ove M e redith onto the
campus. I don't r ecall w hethe r I received this information from the
Attorney G e ne r a l, or w h ethe r it came from Nick Katzenbach . I do recall,
howeve r , r eceiving such a c ommunicat ion a t a bout 5:30 tha t afternoon.
25
CALIFANO: Where was Mr. Katzenbach?
VANCE: Mr. Katzenbach was in Oxford a t that time. I
immediately communicated this informa tion to G eneral Abrams at
Memphis .
CALIFANO: Was Meredith at M emphis at this time?
VANCE: Yes. I subsequently learn e d that Meredith had been
brought to the Oxford airport by John Doar, an attorney at the Department
of Justice, and as I r e call it they arrived somewhere around 5:50 in the
afternoon.
CALIFANO: Do you know why it was decided to move Meredith
t o the Oxford campus?
VANCE: I recall that this was a determination made at the
time and, I believe, in the field by Mr. Katzenbach after discussing the
matter with the Attorney General. I believe the reason for it was that
the situation seemed quiet at Oxford and that they, therefore, thought he
could be introduced onto the campus without any trouble.
CALIFANO: To your knowledge, was the President a part of this
decision?
VANCE: I do not know whether he was or not.
CALIFANO: Was the A ttorney General at the White House on
Sunday afternoon, or was he in his own office?
VANCE: I believe he was in his office when he called me at
1:30 and again at 5:30.
26
CALIFANO: What next happened as far as you were concerned
after 5 : 30:
VANCE : As I recall it, at about 6:45 I received a telephone
call from Mr. K ennedy, the Attorney G eneral, statin g that Meredith had
been introduced onto the campus and was safely located at the Lyceum
Building. I communicated this information, as I recall it, to General
Abrams in Memphis.
CALIFANO: At this point at 6:45 on Sunday evening, were there
any troops in Oxford in addition to those that had been there before,
Mr. Vance?
VANCE: No. The only t roops tha t we re there were the few
people fr om the tent camp at Holly Springs.
CALIFANO: Were you getting reports from Oxford a s to the
situation at the Lyceum Building o r on the campus?
VANCE: No, I was not getting any reports directly from
Oxford. The reports were coming directly from Mr. Katzenbach to the
Department of Justice.
CALIFANO: How did the situa tion progress as far as you were
concerned?
VANCE: As I recall it, the President was to make a speech
to the nation at somewhere a r ound 6:00 or 6:30. He had delayed making
this speech, and it was broadcast on the radio and television that the
speech would b e made late r in the e vening. We turned on our television
set and stood by awaiting the President's mes sage.
27
CALIFANO: Mr. Vance, did you have anything to do with
drafting the President's speech?
VANCE: No, I didn't.
CALIFANO: Did you know what was going to be in it?
VANCE: I knew the general outline s of the spe ech but I did
not know the final details. As I r ecall it, it was being drafted in the
White House by the President and Mr. Sorenson and the Attorney General.
CALIFANO: Do you know why the President delayed the time of
giving his speech?
VANCE: I believe it was b ecause of telephone conversations
between either the President and Governor Barnett, or the Attorney
General and Governo r Barnett.
CALIFANO: Do you know anything a bout the substance of those
telephone conversations?
VANCE: No, I do not.
CALIFANO: What was your next involvement in the situation in
Oxford?
VANCE: I attempt ed to get h old of Mr. Katzenbach by telephone
but hi s direct line was busy, as wer e the comme rcial lines. I , the r e fore,
sent word to M e mphis for them t o get word to Mr. Katzenbach to call me
as soon as he could. At about 8:00 o' cl<0ck or 8: 15 as I recall it, Mr.
Katzenbach called me. I told him that I thought it would be a good idea
to have an Army officer come over to the L y ceum Building as promptly
as we could get him there to act a s liaison between him and G en e ral
28
Billingslea, who was in over-all command of all Federal fo r ces in the
area. Nick said he thought this would be a fine idea, and I said I would
get somebody there as promptly as we could. I believe it was at about
this time that Nick told me that the crowd was getting larger outside
the building, a nd that things did not look as quiet as they previously had;
however, the situation was still well in hand.
CALIFANO: Do you know where Mr. Meredith was at this time?
VANCE: I recall that he was moved from the Lyceum Building
to a nearby dormitory. I've forgotten what the number of the dormitory
was or what its name was.
CALIFANO: Did you do anything as a r esult of Mr . Katzenbach' s
statement that the situation was worsening on the campus?
VANCE: We decide d to follow the situation very closely in
light of Mr. Katzenbach's report and, therefore, k ept in close touch with
both Memphis and the Departme nt of Justice.
CALIFANO: What was you r next action during the night, or your
next contact with either Justice or the White House?
VANCE: At about 9: 30, I received a telephone call from the
Attorne y G ene r al asking whethe r or not we could qua r ter about 200 Federal
m a r shals at the local armory. I sent a message to Gene r al Billingslea,
with a copy to General Abrams, telling him about this query and asking
him to get in touch with the people in Oxford and see whether this could
be accomplished. At about 10: 30, I received a telephone call from Mr.
29
Katzenbach in Oxford. Mr. Katz enbach said the situation h a d gotten
very serious a nd that they had to use t ea r gas. He requested that we
get them additional tear gas and gas masks as soon a s possible. I
immediately sent a message to Gene r a l Billingslea telling him that Mr.
Katze nbach needed gas ma sks and was attempting to contact General
Billingslea. I a ske d him to establish and maintain communications
directly with Mr. Katzenbach so that the r esponse woul d be as prompt
as possible.
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Were any troops moved at this time?
No troops wer e moved at this time .
What next happen ed, Mr. Vance?
Shortly afte r 10: 30, G eneral Billingslea r e ported
by phone to the Army War Room that he had checked on the armory and
found i t occupied by cavalry troops. H e said that he had placed his M P
battalion and helicopter company on alert for possible call for assistance
from marshals o n the campus, and that he had put the guard on one hour
a l ert. General Abrams reported that a liais o n officer to Justice on the
campus was already on his way and was to report at the Lyce um. H e
s a id that h e was going in a marshal's car in civilian clothes.
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Did the situation continue to get wor se on the campus?
Yes. It continued to worsen, and I b e lieve it was at
about 10:30 that further action was taken. At about that time we re ceived
30
instructions from the Pr esident through the Attorney General to move
between 800 and 1, 000 National Guard troops to Oxford. This order wa s
communicated to G ene r a l Billingslea in Memphis.
CALIFANO: Was this a decision by the President to handl e the
situation with National Guard troops?
VANCE :
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
CALIFANO:
VANCE:
Yes.
Were any Regular t roops in the area at that time?
No . The closest Regular troops we re in Memphis.
What next happened, Mr. Vance?
The situation continued to worsen on the campus
and violence broke out on a la rge scale. A t about 11:30 , in response to
a telephone call from the Attorney General, I directed the initiation of
movement of R egul a r Army MP units from Memphis to Oxford in numbers
deemed necessary by General Billingslea to support the Federal marshals.
CALIFANO: Do you have any recollection of how many troops
General Billingslea moved in at this time?
VANCE: As I recall it, General Billingslea moved in a company
of MPs which he was going to move in by helicopter, and the balance of
forces he was going to move by road down to Oxford because there were
only sufficient helicopters to move one company.
CALIFANO: Did G e neral Billingslea have discretion to move any
number of troops in?
VANCE: Yes, he did.
31
.. . .
CALIFANO: After he had moved these two companies of troops
in, were more troops ordered in by the President?
VANCE : At about 11 :45, the President directed that before
G eneral Billingslea commit h i s forces he proceed to Oxfo rd and make
an eval uation of the situation, reporting the results of his evaluation
directly to the President. He further specified that G ene ral Billingslea
could initiate movement of all forces under his command, including all
of the National Guard, to Oxford or other locations in a position to be
employed.
CALI FANO: Was this a direct conversati on between you and the
President?
VANCE: As I recall it, it was a direct conversation between
me and t h e President.
CALIFANO: Did h e say anything else to you at that time to your
r ecollection?
VANCE: Nothing except that the situation was getting very
serious.
CALIFANO: Did General Billingslea then report to the President?
VANCE: I do not know what General Billingslea did immediately
thereafter. It is my recollection that he made preparations for moving
as promptly as possible to Oxford so that he could survey the situation and
communicate back to the President.
CALIFANO: What was you r next p e rsonal contact w ith the situation?