Compilation of Responses received to “Why is it · Web viewCompilation of Responses received to “Why is it necessary for ordinary Muslims to speak up? ... your each word in the

Compilation of Responses received to “Why is it necessary for ordinary Muslims to speak up?”as on 17-12-2008

Original email:

Subject: Why is it necessary for ordinary Muslims to speak up?Eid Mubarak!

Why is it necessary for ordinary Muslims to speak up? Every Muslim is as much a citizen of India as anyone else and defintely does not have to defend either the Muslim community in India or Islam. Nevertheless, it is important to make people of other communities realise that Muslims too are angry a) about terrorists spoiling the image of Islam, and b) as well as maybe somehow conveying that there is some Muslim sympathy (not support) for their attacks.  So when an ordinary Muslim citizen does not speak up:    1. It increases the perception gap and emotional distance between them and other communities    2. It does not strengthen the Government's resolve to take suitable action against terrorist networks, both internally and internationally    3. It does not convey clearly and unequivocally to Muslims in other countries that Muslims in India are proud of being Indians, of living in India and of India itself, as one of the most secular countries in the world, not withstanding lots of problems, including inter-community problems.  There is clearly a lack of leadership today in India, and I feel that it is the ordinary Muslim who can spur the creation of a new leadership for the country by uniting the country even more strongly, by expressing this view and by showing that we are all one and the same Indian.  Furthermore, I would be interested in also hearing what the ordinary Pakistani has to say.  I am absolutely not interested in hearing the opinions of religious or political or high-profile social leaders, because their opinions are already available. I am also not interested in any quote from the Quran, because it is very clear in my mind that the Quran can not advocate or support such activity.  For any issue where a group carries out a (negative) action, either by claiming they have done it on behalf of their religion, or it appears that they have done it on behalf of their religion (including Hindus, Christians, etc.), I think it is extremely important for ordinary citizens of that religion to speak out strongly about their own true opinions.  Vinay http://www.karmyog.org/ -- towards the India we want Do see and respond to www.karmayog.org/mumbaiterrorattack ----------------------------------------------Categories of responses:

1. Agree – from Muslims2. Agree – from Hindus, Christians, others3. Angry, Disagree – from Muslims4. Angry, Disagree – from Hindus, others5. Disagree – about religion, why Muslims should respond6. Other related issues – Kashmir, partition, conversion, jihad

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1. Agree – from Muslims

1.No Time to Hide for MuslimsAijaz Zaka Syed (View from Dubai)

30 November 2008 Watching the terror nightmare unfold in Mumbai over the past three days with me on television, my kids have repeatedly asked me: “Who are these terrorists and why are they doing this?” And every time I wished I could offer them a convincing answer.

What could I tell them? For one, I was equally clueless why these guys had taken over India’s financial and cultural capital and were targeting people who had nothing to do with them and had done nothing to harm them.

For two, I was too ashamed to tell them these guys were ostensibly Muslims and came from a country that was created in the name of Islam.

At work, while my colleagues went about covering the madness in Mumbai and laying out special pages with the images of the incredibly beautiful hotel, Taj, with its Islamic arches and domes, go up in smoke, I find it hard to look my colleagues in the eye.

And this happens all the time. Every time innocents are targeted in the name of Islam around the world, one can’t face one’s non-Muslim friends and colleagues. I feel like burying myself in the ground. Growing up in a religious family, one never thought one would see the day when being a Muslim could be a source of shame.

A distraught friend who has devoted her life to speaking and fighting on behalf of Arabs and Muslims wrote in yesterday saying “I’ve had it with the Arabs and Muslims and Islamic militancy. Forgive me but I am throwing in the towel.”

I couldn’t write back to her but understood her pain. She grew up in Mumbai and is understandably upset.

My friend went on to say: “The Muslims and Islam have a problem and only they can solve it. If they do not, the whole world will turn against them.”

If this is how our most loyal friends feel, imagine the sentiments and reactions of the rest of the world. Can you blame the world if it’s turning against Muslims? What do you expect when not a single day passes without the name of our faith being dragged through the mud by fellow believers around the world?

How many innocents have to die in the name of Islam before Muslim leaders and countries take effective action to deal with the nuts, who are out to destroy us all with their nihilistic cult?

I know that the Muslim leaders including those in the highest echelons of power have lately started speaking out against the extremists.

Darul Uloom Deoband in India, one of the oldest and most respected centres of learning in the Muslim world, issued a fatwa against terrorism at a large gathering of Islamic scholars and leaders in June. Last month, nearly 5,000 scholars backed the edict at a huge congregation in Hyderabad.

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The OIC, the organisation of Muslim states, and Saudi Arabia, the leader of the Arab-Islamic world, have of late been equally vehement in condemning these repulsive acts of violence targeting innocents.

Eminent Muslim intellectuals and journalists like Tariq Ramadan, a grandson of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hasan Al Banna, and India’s MJ Akbar and numerous others too have repeatedly protested this distortion of Islamic teachings and spirit.

These calls of conscience on behalf of mainstream Islam have however proved voices in the wilderness. Clearly, we need to do more to be heard by the world and to stop this shameful victimisation of innocent people in the name of religion.

The great irony of the Mumbai attacks is the killing of Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare and his colleagues. Karkare, a brave and decorated officer investigating the Malegaon blasts and other recent terror attacks that he established to be the handiwork of Hindu extremists, not Muslim groups like SIMI, was killed by the terrorists outside Cama hospital Wednesday night. Obviously, Muslims do not know who their real friends and enemies are. And, pray, why is India increasingly being singled out for this savagery? What do they think this country is? A Hindu country or an anti-Muslim nation?

Do the ignorant dummies repeatedly being sent out on the so-called jihad know that this great country is home to the world’s largest Muslim population? Almost twice the size of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan! India’s greatest superstar is a Muslim, not to mention the countless achievers in other fields.

Why are our friends across the border bent on destroying the whole world with themselves? Is this what Islam and the noble Prophet teach and stand for?

It’s all very well for us to say Islam has nothing to do with extremism and terrorism. We can go on deluding ourselves these psychopaths do not represent us.

However, the world finds it hard to accept this line of argument because it sees the extremists increasingly assert themselves and take the centre-stage while the mainstream Islam remains silent.

The great religion that preaches and celebrates universal brotherhood, equality of men and peace and justice for all has been hijacked by a demented, miniscule minority. And, as my friend says, only Muslims can solve this problem. Only Muslims can confront these anarchists in their midst.

Only they can get their faith freed from the clutches of extremism. This is no time to hide. It’s time to stand up and speak out. For the terrorists will continue to speak on our behalf, until we do not speak up. This is no time for silence. Enough is enough!

Khaleej Times Online Aijaz Zaka Syed (View from Dubai)30 November 2008---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2.Farheen, Thank you very much.Your email is very re-assuring.Because I have been receiving flak from some muslims and hindus to my email :-) Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Farheen Ali

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Hello Vinay and Eid Mubarak to you too.... I have been receiving and reading the Karmayog newsletters, more so in the last couple of weeks after the violence - and Congratulations on the wonderful work you are doing with Karmayog. Even though I am only a passive member your mail today is absolutely true and very beautiful. My Grandfather was an Indian freedom fighter and it is sad that the Muslim community in India is today looked upon as a terrorist community, but its the truth and your right in saying that the educated Muslims need to do something about it. Furthermore, you wanted to know what the ordinary Pakistani would say...well I can tell you, coz my Mom was born in Karachi and came to Mumbai after marriage. However mumbai is now her home and she cannot even comprehend living in Karachi today.The violence and the fundamentalism has become so bad there that in a couple of years, I am fairly certain that in a few years it will be as bad as what Afghanistan is today. Everybody I know living there - rich and poor have at some point in the last year either been robbed, killed or maimed. Terrorism and loot is a part of everyday accepted life. Its a horrible country to live in and has nothing to do with Islam. And Zardari, aka Mr.10% has absolutely no idea what is going on in the country he claims to be President of!! Finally, I believe that a big reason for this is coz the educated and moneyed have not taken an active interest in their country and I just hope and pray to God that India learns from the mistake of its neighbour!!

Farheen---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3.Dear VinayThanks for Eid greetings. I think muslims in India have very categorically demonstarted, both by action and voice,in the recent past that they condemn every form of terrorism much so 'terrorist acts' committed by muslims. Mumbai attack was at its worst, most brutal and inhuman to say the least. Every muslim like any hindu, sikh or christian, vehemently denounced it so much so that they even refused burial of the killed attackers in the muslim grave-yard.I personally know that muslim community is very agitated and angry on this sordid episode. Indian Muslim never support Pak; take it from me. You have to see to believe when an Indian muslim talks to his/her Pakistani relative and praises India and denigrates Pak on the face. That time he/she puts every thing for India and challenges Pak to dare India. It is also evident that in the Mumbai attack none of the attacker was from India. We love our country. We will die for it. I will not give an inch of land and a gram of earth of this sacred country to any one including Pak. Yes I am Indian first and then a Muslim, a doctor and Professor of Pediatrics and all that. Unfortunately partition is blamed only on Indian muslims by the majority community. Muslims are perceived as villian in their own land. You have to change this mind set. Take them in to confidence. As for tackling of terrorist acts are concerned, I propose--1.Improve our intelligence without fear or favor.2.Apply iron hand on every person of any denomination who indulges in communalism and acts of barbarism.3.Same curriculum in all schools whether run by minority institutions or Shishu Mandir etc.4.Have muslims in the police force and give them sensitive postings. Have faith on them. They will prove if not better that at least equal to others.5.Beware of western designs. I am not worried of Pak but I doubt West and Israel. They are not friend of India.

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6.Ask Pak to stop usage of its soil for terrorist acts against India. Ask Pak to have joint venture with India to finish training camps.7.Shake firm hand with Pak. Involve Indian muslims in confronting Pak so called mullahs. They can answer them well. However do not talk of war. It will not solve the problem.With warm reagrds.Dr M.M.A.Faridi---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4.Dear Vinay, I saw few of your mails, but I am afraid I could not get time to go through each one; however I will try as I get time to brows through them after my office work. May be I would request some of my like minded friends, if they can help! Regarding your request, I think we can never succeed in explaining to those who have locked their minds and not ready to listen anything against their own assumptions. No one can be changed by force unless the person changes himself.  I felt very bad to see such mails, these people seems to survive only and only on preaching hatred. The figures given in mail below about Quran are all false and what he is speaking is all lies (Such a hypocrite person is shamefully calling himself “Editor- Hindu Voice”). Yes there are millions of websites, definitely there are many good and some might have been handy work of people like the writer of the mail below. It is up to individual to keep his mind open and judge between good and bad. I am sure there is no sword or any force at least in this internet age then yet Islam is growing fastest? Especially in the west…in spite of so much propaganda against it.. that too more amongst females …surprising..!.. need to ponder on this! It may be difficult to keep arguing with such people, better we ignore them and concentrate on some constructive work. (Yes, if some one comes with open heart we can discuss in respectable way) Kind regards, Abdul Hasib

Dear Vinay,

Thanks for your reply.

I agree with you largely; however my point was to highlight that even Muslim religious core groups are also clearly against terrorist activities (unlike some people’s assumed perception that “Muslim religious groups” might be encouraging terror).

I am a practicing engineering professional and surely not a religious scholar, yet I study Quran to know its teachings. I think you have also rightly quoted that “Quran can not advocate or support such activity”. I have never found any expression stronger than what Quran describes concerning importance of human life. It is clearly declaring ‘killing of single innocent’ is as ‘killing of all mankind’ and ‘saving a life’ is as ‘saving of all mankind’...believe me,

I never come across any close elaboration and firm expression for killing/saving of a ‘single’ innocent life and equating it to entire ‘humanity’!

My point is, if all Muslim (whether religious or otherwise) are against killings of innocents (both Muslim and non-Muslims), then who is benefiting from such heinous crimes? That’s the reason most of the Muslims believes these act are staged by anti-Muslim forces; however Muslims faces are being

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used to hide the identity of real perpetrators and to mislead the world. The way these attacks were planned proves that it is not done by some illiterates/ or small time thieves as being portrayed. It seems that these attacks serves interest of big states with far reaching technology to keep emerging state like India engaged in battle and keep them away from peace and prosperity. It is obvious that some local elements with long history of keeping people divided in to section are fuelling these tactics so as to keep others serving their interests.

I never thought that I can write things as above but it came to my mind when I started brainstorming critically over this issue. I hope we all come together, think over it impartially and carefully and work for a better and peaceful India (and world at large).

I am sure, you at karmayog are doing things to improve the situation unlike some others fuelling it further (whether knowingly or un-knowingly). I can assure you my good-wishes and support as an Muslim individual or as part of like minded Muslim community for any constructive and righteous work.

Please keep in touch. Warm regards,Abdul Hasib

----- Original Message ----- From: karmayog

Thanks.

reg. (tell me if any other religious organisations came together in such a way?), i personally would not like hindu organisations to take the mantle of representing general hindus in such matters. I don't want to see them getting importance or their importance growing. I think respected individuals, normal individuals, neutral civil society orgs, academicians, etc. people from all walks of life should voice their opinion. Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Abdul Haseeb

Vinay,

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to speak.

As common Muslim, it is very clear to me (and I can assure the same from majority of Muslims) that all these so called 'terrorist attacks' are staged to defame Islam and Muslims.

Such acts are cause of LARGEST damage to Muslims and Islam both physically and psychologically. Firstly we feel hurt as we are part of society and nation secondly in terms of direct loss of Muslim life, property at ground zero, thirdly indirect pain due to allegations, defamation, discrimination, arrests physical and psychological atrocities (as after effects of such attacks). Not to mention, that again we are not trusted and unlike anyone else we are asked to prove our innocence by “announcing” loudly after each such inhumane act.

I think, mainly it is media (you know it is not handled by powerful lobbies and not by us) which is associating Muslims with all such cowardly acts. Probably it is easiest things to do for them without any big risks/backlash and there is no support for Muslims to defend themselves. They seem to be cowering when it comes to real adventures for solving the mysteries.

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Muslim individuals and leaders are first to denounce killing of innocents. I appreciate that you have shown clear willingness to listen to us as common Muslims; however generally the fact is that such things are not given importance and not published often.

Generally if a person of any other religion is involved their identity is not disclosed due to "security reasons" (try recall incidents like Samjhauta express blast etc) However if any ‘Muslim’ is involved in it, all focus on him with assaults on him, his family, religion etc. (I have seen a report that one of the persons arrested recently in Kolkatta on allegation of providing SIM cards to terrorist of Mumbai attack was in-fact a counter insurgency police officer who is appointed to infiltrate into militant organisations and he was doing his duty… If such allegations are possible on police officers just because their name sounds like Muslims.. What can you expect for a common Muslim?)

Highest Bodies of Muslim clergy (Association/u Muslim organisations (Muslim Majlis-e-Mushavirat) and Islamic institutions like Deoband, Nadvatul-ulema) etc had publicly issued statements and organised conferences to denounce terrorism. (tell me if any other religious organisations came together in such a way?

Besides our grief for so many people killed in Mumbai attacks (including ~30% Muslims) our greatest grief is for Hemant Karkarey! I feel this was a target killing. He was threatened for his life, his house was told to be blown away but still he was committed to disclose the actual culprits of Ajmer Blast, Samjhauta Express Blast, Mecca Masjid Blast etc after probing Malegaon blast. It was the only occasion after Nathuram Godse case that some one dared to touch these links. I hope some one like Karkarey will rise above and solve these mysteries.

Regards,

Hasib---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5.We are Indians and then after Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs etc.

If our country is hurt, it hurts our hearts because:

Saray Jahan say acchha Hindustan Hamara

Ham Bubalayn hein iski yay gulstan hamara.

Those who killed innocent people in Bombay have defamed Islam and Muslims.

They are not the true followers of our Glorious Prophet who claimed that he was

Rehmat-lill- alimeen or Mercy to the Nations.

Fida Hassnain---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------6.From: ubaid patel

Dear Sir Thanks for the greetings of Eid. It is very important for the ordinary muslims to speak because their silence may be interpreted in either way by the vested interest. Not only that their silence gives an opprtunity to a group of persons to pose as the leaders or spokesperson of the entire community. However the poor media rappo of the

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community and a systematic anti muslim approach of a section of the press makes the community a casualty for the sins never committed by it and these elements make every effort to tarnish this happless lot. The result you know pretty well even a jet flier flies in to a fit of rage and starts abusing a muslim cabin crew. If this is the behaviour of an educated elite you can imagine the extent prejudice in other lesser enlightened minded persons and how it is harming the poor muslims of this country. We fully believe that all is not lost and the community has to fend for itself that too with whatever available resources and tools at its disposal but of coures it it looking up to the people with right frame of mind in all other communities to also stand for it as the extent of vulnerability may not allow it to carry this hercullian task by itself. Thanks U A Patel ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------7.Dear Mr. Vinay, Thank you very much for your email. Yes I agree with you. Muslims also oppose such unhuman act and condem. It is totally inhuman act, no any person or religion advocate it. Terrorist has no religion. Even Allah cannot forgive a person who did unjustice to another person unless and until the another person forgive him. It is very much unfortunate that the fruits of development could not reach to Muslims to the extent it is required and so Muslims are educationally and economically backward. But educated Muslims should come forward and condemn this inhuman act of terrorism. Thanking you, Yours faithfully, Mohiyuddin Shaikh---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------8.Dear Brother Vinay,Thanks for your valued email message.your each word in the message is currect, i appreciate your efforts to create special message among the people.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you soon.Truly Yours,Ahmed D.Pathan---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------9.Indeed it is very True, IDD MUBARAK TO all at Karmayog, I am Mamoon Akhtar running a NGO samaritan Help Mission, and works in the Muslim dominated area to Tikiapara Howrah West Bengal. I have motivated the Religious community of our locality and the Local Muslims, to raise voice against this act of barbarism which is against ISLAM, A mass Meeting and Protest will be organize by the Muslim and put demand to take stringent action curbing the Terrorism.

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Regards,mamoon Akhtar---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------10.From: Parvez Jamasji

The Muslims by showing Empathy with their INDIAN Compatriots, post Mumbai Blasts; Nov 2008, have done themselves & India Proud. Indian Muslim WILL undo what the terrorists did & do.Earn GOOD WILL WORDWIDE & join All Humanity as EQUALS, by EXPOSING to the Police, NOT Aiding, Abeting nor Sheltering Terrorists.They will send a Loud & Clear message Internationally as well as Domestically. Especially to theTerrorist's Minders & their Hosts Pakistan, that Indian Muslims WILL NOT futher the Terrorists nor allegedly Islam's cause; by Terrorism.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------11.thanks.noted.that's what even I and most of all people of all communities would like.unfortunately, we can't turn a blind eye and deaf ear to others who do politicise and communalise the issue.i think it's useful and important to think of ways to counteract that.vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: naaz khair

Hello, I am speaking not as a Muslim or a Non-Muslim but as a Human Being. When terror attacks it sees not the relegion of the person because terror has no relegion. Direct victims of terror attacks want to see the terrorist punished for justice to happen and do not care about the relegion of the terrorist. Justice would mean life for life, property for property, etc. This is how I would like to empathise with terror victims rather than politicise and communialise the whole issue. And, seek near fool proof security if not fool proof security (some would think the idea of fool proof security is utopian!) at all times. But what I find happening is communalisation and politicisation of the whole issue in the name of punishing the terrorists and the political establishment still not determined to tighten the country's security system.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------12.thanks.noted.vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Shaban

Dear Viney, I am confident, it will be firmly done by the Muslim community. People have started coming out of their homes. What is needed that people encourage this, understanding the deep seated fear in the coummunity about their 'nationalism in questions'. What I feel that if Muslims feel that they do not

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have to do this to demonstrate and legitimise themselves as 'nationalists' they will come out more in number. The anger in Muslims has been that they have to show proof. I think the day they are taken as citizen of the country and questions are not raised about their 'nationalism' and loyality, 'India' will win. We will not find tears in the eyes of those who being a citizen of the country has to prove his/her nationalism everytime to legitimise himself. He/she will not offer execuses that he/she is also aggrevied as 40 Muslims are kiiled as well. He/she will tell that about 200 Indians are killed, we have lost 200 humans to some criminals and these criminals are needed to be brought justice. With best regard shaban

karmayog wrote:

Dear Shaban, I am not hurt. I welcome responses to my email so that my understanding of the situation improves because I find that NGOs working in Communal Harmony are also struggling to find more effective ways. Without question, I would feel very bad. Actually, I don't think people e.g. Hindus are looking for 'proof' of love for India from Muslims. I think they are looking for Indian Muslims to send that message out firmly (that they do love India) to Muslims in other countries. That is my perception. I could be completely wrong. RegardsVinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Shaban

Dear Mr. Viney, I must apologise if you are hurt. But as a Muslim, I also feel hurt when I see that Muslims have to prove their 'nationalism' every time. On every occasion, Muslim have to prove their secularsim, prove their nationalism, prove their love for the country and society. I have seen tears in eyes of youths and intellectuals from this section of the society when these questions are put and they asked to prove. Suppose you were a Muslim and these questions are put before you everytime something happes, How you would have felt? Put yourslf to the position where a Muslim today, try to feel the agony, the fear, the terror, overall helplessness he/she his going through. I appreciate your points but it is becoming too much to explain everytime. We are Indian, proud Indian. As helpless and miserable as any section of the society in this counrty. We are poud for being both Indian and Muslim, as my other brothers are Hindu, Jain, Sikh, Christain and simultaneouly Indian.

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I think Msulims are getting out of their home to protest against the mayhem by the terrorists. For a few criminals, the loyality and indeianess of the whole community is questioned.This becomes painful...very very painful. with best regard shaban karmayog wrote:

we were always there.maybe you didn't care to notice.

if you can calmly explain why it's offending, i would be obliged. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shaban

Dear Mr. Viney, Do not send these useless pieces to us. Please keep these guidelines for yourself and people of like minded. I do not think there is a need to take a lesson from you. It quite offending email. Where are the people like you other times. I do not think Muslims should show their patriotism to you. They have enough patriotism and they do not need certificate from you. They are doing whatsoever they can. I hope you will not circulate this kind of email and or will keep these types with your kinds. Shaban---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13.i don't see the connection with my message apart from your first sentence.am i missing something? ----- Original Message -----

Dear Vinay

Muslims needs to speak up to protect their rights as citizens of India. In a democracy, every minority citizens needs to be protected by law.

Unfortunately, we have rapist, murders. Lootara Mps, sitting in our Parliament and are in our cabinet too. In fact we have an immoral polity who is after stealing our nation’s wealth, deny our freedom and rights. Our wheels of justice remains block by Rajiv Gandhi, after his genocide of innocent Sikhs after his mother Indira Gandhi was assassinated by her Sikh body guards.

Muslims were intimidated by Neo Nazi BJP with there genocide of innocent Muslims in Gujarat. No one has been arrested for their crimes. We are the only nation where rapists and murderers are protected by GOI.

Should our Moral India Mission be blessed by God to form a government, we will go after the people who planned the genocide and those who delivered it. We will ban on religion based recognition of any Indian. All will be recognized as Indian. We will ban discrimination by religion, race, color creed cast and gender.

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So far in the last 61 years our GOI have stolen the wealth of $1256 million. Which lies deposited in Swiss banks.

Support Moral India Mission. Thank YouArvind Amin---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Agree – from Hindus, Christians, others

14.From: Rupa Pinge

Great Initiative!! I have been trying - and with little or no success - to convey the same things to friends. In fact, I was shocked to know that there are many amongst us - educated, intelligent, culturally refined - who actually blame the entire community; who think that they are all the same!! I mean, how can any literate person actually believe that? But surprise, surprise ... many seemingly sane people really do..... No religion is bad, no religion can ever advocate mindless killing of other human beings. It is people from all religions who exploit the weak-minded and underprivileged, in the name of religion. They use religion for their selfish interests. They kill, and make others kill, in the name of God. And that is their religion - it is that obsessive insanity that binds them all together -- regardless of the faith they may have been born to follow. So, innocent Muslims speaking up - is a great idea. Better still would to be avoid the Shabana Azmis and Shahrukh Khans and REALLY let ordinary Muslims and citizens of India speak!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------15.From: Seema Kamdar

I couldnt agree with you more.

I can well understand that Muslims find themselves on the defensive following such terror strikes. I empathise with them but that's also inevitable given the fact that terror is perpetrated in the name of Islam. For the first time, I liked what Shah Rukh Khan said about there being two Islams--one propagated by Allah and the other by the mullahs.Unless and until we know what the Muslims think about terrorism, a general apprehension about their point of view is bound to take root in people's minds. Unfortunately, the onus is on them. It is a difficult time for everybody and all of us have to strive to ease the situation. Some of us may therefore have to actually got a little further than the others.Unless the Muslims take charge of the situation, many more could get indoctrinated by the jehad idea and many many more like us could fall prey to the outcome of such regressive thinking.I have been speaking to some peace-loving mullahs and am encouraged by their condemnation of the attacks. What I find disappointing however is that some of them live in denial. They believe that the dastardly attacks were committed not by a fanatic Muslim but by the US or even Israel. That, they say, is why they dont want terrorists buried on their soil. When I ask them if they would get pro-active and take any steps to keep the impressionable Muslim minds away from the jehadi mindset, they say the Hadees (Prophet's sayings) have always told us to shun violence and therefore, that should be enough.What these well-meaning but extremely defensive people need to understand is that unless they get into the front seat, whatever someone else says will be branded "communal" and ignored. It is time

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Muslims got together and formed some kind of the leadership to keep their youth away from terrorism. Otherwise, I'm afraid, they may continue to have to be on the defensive.They have the real power to change, even if not entirely.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------16.Dear Vinay, Yes it is important to talk. It is important to speak. We have multiple identities and religion is one of them. Unfortunately, it is gaining much greater importance the world over unlike the 60s. I feel ashamed when people speak stupidly. As some are from Karnataka, I do vocally protest. It helps everyone. Dr. Nagraj G. Huilgol---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------17.Noted thanks.

From: "buddhanathan"

For any issue where a group carries out a (negative) action, either by claiming they have done it on behalf of their religion, or it appears that they have done it on behalf of their religion (including Hindus, Christians, etc.), I think it is extremely important for ordinary citizens of that religion to speak out strongly about their own true opinions.

Muslims in India should speak up. This will clearly bring positive change in the muslim community in India as well as in Pakistan and elsewhere in the world. This will also help Indian muslim and muslims in pakistan to go thru the Quran and will not fall prey to fanatic mullahs, who misinterpret the Holy Quran and spread hatred in common people, who ultimately suffer in the hands of selfish mullahs and selfish politicians in India, Pakistan and elsewhere. This itself will demoralise the terrorists and fanatic muslims who have tremendous knowledge, wealth, skills otherwise. Muslims will be and should proud of their religion if they speak up at this juncture.

buddhanathan---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------18.From: Nitin Kothari

Dear Vinay, Very Nice, I appreciate your thought and pleased about your approach. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------19.thanks.

Hello Vinay,

Here is my suggestion for the rewording

Nevertheless, it is important to make people of other communities realize that Muslims too are angry firstly about terrorists killing innocent Indians in the name of Islam and secondly to convey to the

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terrorists that though the terrorists may have found some support from a few misguided youths, but the majority of India's Muslim populace has lived here peacefully and is happy to live here and equally proud to be an Indian.

One notable aspect that I have always remembered about Hindu temples is that most of the flower merchants outside the temples are devout muslim.

Upendra Watwe---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------20.YES it necessary for ordinary Muslims to speak up . AS all terrorist are from their community.citizen must common laws to follow. Saikat---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21.Is it necessary that muslims speak against Mohammad or Allah?Would you speak against the Gita or Ramayan? Why?Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Siddharth Gupta

Vinay All you said is nothing new...What separates Hinduism from islam, christianity, is the ability of an ordinary hindu to question his faith..While i was studying in the United states, people from local churches would come by and try to teach us the 'true' way. We tried to question their arguments but the best they could come up with was that they were speaking verbatim from the bible. It was a perfect example of the phrase 'Ignorance is Bliss'. I don't know how you got this email address, but you are doing a noble yet diffcult job. Islam doesn't allow muslims to speak against Mohammad or Allah..If they do, someone would willingly issue a 'fatwa'. The recent state election results in India have rooted out my hope of an utopian society back home. best of luck siddharth---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------22.From: Janardhanan, Muthukrishnan

Eid Mubarak to you as well.

Yes, I was pretty happy when Javed Akhtar and others came on the road, walked from CST to the Trident expressing their solidarity and condemning the cowardly act of November 26 in Mumbai. However, why such sentiments were not expressed at any other major events, be the parliament attack, Mumbai train bombings, etc. I am a bit puzzled with it. Yes, we were upset, angry, you can add any verbs, etc. However, since the November 26 did have global ramifications, perhaps it is on the limelight. There is one thing which is absent among Indians, is being an Indian, rather than a gujarati, a maharashtrian, a Punjabi or a south Indian. I am fed up hearing these words rather than an

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Indian. If you ask any student, he would begin by saying that my parents belong to this region and this caste rather than an Indian.

On Pakistan, on a one to basis they are expressing sympathy, condemning, etc. However, there is a certain animosity which probably has stemmed out of provoking statements from those illiterate politicians. We will have probably a video conferencing with some of the Seeds of Peace children. I will let you know some time next week on the success of it.

However, you know me, I don’t make any differentiation between a muslim, a Christian or a Punjabi, though I am pure Iyer from South India (I do not know whether I am pure or not but would like to believe that way). As in any community, there are good and bad people, there are many hindus who are also fundamentalist. We do not have a choice, but continue to do the work that you have been doing and probably support in all the way one can.

I do not know whether the above makes any sense, but I had to write it up.

With warm personal regards, Janardhanan---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------23.William Shaw

Right on!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------24.Thanks for sending your comments to me. I agree completely with the points you made. You stated it very clearly.

Ever since New York City was attacked in September of 2001, I have believed that the only way to significantly diminish terrorism is for the majority of Muslims to speak up – and not tolerate the terrorists. Otherwise, terrorism will continue and all law abiding, peace loving Muslims will have their own well-being threatened by the terrorists. That is what is happening now in India and throughout the world.

All “wars” against terrorism are doomed to fail and will only cause more violence. You can’t go into every country and throw “bombs.” Nor am I saying that the US has been completely innocent here. They are not.

Thank you for your efforts and I wish you peace and many blessings.

Jeff Keller---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------25.Yes, as Vinay says, it is ALSO EQUALLY IMPORTANT that ordinary Hindus and Christians too speak up against any violence instigated or perpetrated by their co-religionists. It is not only Muslims who should be burdened with this responsibility. SincerelyJosantony---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------26.From: Vasaikar, Noman

You right to say Muslim has to speak,

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But what will be change in attitude the person who doesn’t want to listen.

As mention from Hindu voice and similar think group, if you quote from Quran and Hades they say this person is ignorant, in the hand of Mullvi and Mulla’s, don’t listen to them, and so on.

If you speak out of frame and contest, they will appreciate. Or either this types of people only want to listen what they think right, they cannot think openly.

On their comment I don’t like to put my counter arguments because it’s useless to say them. There is 100% Muslim Ulma’s and Mullvi’s who against terrorisms, only one Scholar name is enough for those who have brain and like to listen other. “Dr. Zakir Naik” Topic “Terrorism and Jihad”

In Few months back one conference held in Deoband on “terrorisms” and strongly takes the exception and show the right teaching of Islam and stand of Muslim on this issue.

But it’s not new to the person who is looking in internet.

Some people having negative metal setup, you cannot do any think for them.

Live this discussion to feeding for this criminal mind set, and do some join effort to build bridge communal harmony.

Lot of work is pending; discussion only consumes time, effort and act makes the change.

One and last, how strongly they argue but how much they have penetrations in society, Society rejected them, and leaving together.

Let’s join the hand to build the India, Strong, and Peace full Nation of the World.

Sorry to if any one hurt with my words.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------27.Dear Vinay, good day, I absolutely agree with your thoughts down below and I myself have read the KURAN. Have been many places for Namaz, even in Egypt and Iran. (I am not bosting it here since I am religeous Marathi brahmin) However I am not able to understand one thing, that why the Muslim Maulavees are not able to preach this thru there lectures about the right contents in Kuran? why is that we have a division of thought process based on what is truth and what is tought? The very community in which I have many many friends, which virtually agree with me on secularism, why can't be vocal about it within there circles. why is it a shame to them? I have also been in a hardliner Sangh swayansevak during my school and college days and have instilled all my qualities of study and command, organising etc etc from sangh but I never saw or heard a single lecture in sangh meetings (depsite being a pracharak and Karyavah of local Branch) against muslims or against any community in sangh meetings. Not even in top meetings. I think these are all propogandic issues politicised by someone who is interested in division of votes like any other.

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being In merchant Navy now I have so much to travel in world and speak to people about the International Politics, It is really painful to see how the image of India is getting tarnished day by day and it is all becuase of pur Politicians and their systems. In my last post I had said that this is an Irony that we do not have any National leader who would take us to an International plank and think of India in next 20 yrs /50 yrs in terms of International politics and expanse. i do not know, what will happen with our apporach of letting things happen at their pace and sitting tight. Just compare the setences of Miss Rice and Our Pranab Mukharjee for last week. I am aghast at the ignorance of this nation at their own security. BrgdsCapt Gajanan Karanjikar---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------28.Dear Vinay,

Very well written note. I have just been thinking along the same line as you and just finished an article on this topic.

Some of my friends in Houston want to take up a new initiative to get UN involved as a world community and also to get the involvement of moderates in Islam as you can see from my following article.

Looking forward to getting your comments. What we are proposing will not happen overnight. This is a long journey and may take several decades. But journey has to start but with a small step.

Regards Bhamy V Shenoy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------29.thanks for the sane advice. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sveta Dave

Absolutely genuine. Today's paper says there have been arrests of Lashkar leaders. Let us recognize it as a genuine attempt to root out terrorist bases in Pakistan. Let us not continue to watch cynically, but rather acknowledge every small step and do our own homework to prevent recurring attacks on Indian soil.

Sveta

karmayog karmayog wrote:

is that a tongue-in-cheek reply or genuine? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sveta Dave

It would be wonderful if the people of India would take to the streets in a peaceful movement, to thank the people of Pakistan for starting to take steps against terrorism, and to express solidarity with the quest for harmony in both countries and peaceful coexistence for both.

Sveta Dave Chakravarty

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------30.From: R J (karigar)

Dear Sri Vinay,

You say-"Every Muslim is as much a citizen of India as anyone else and defintely does not have to defend either the Muslim community in India or Islam."

I have to disagree on one point. Since the Terrorists worldwide are claiming Islam as their inspiration, someone has to show clearly & conclusively why Islam is NOT & could not be the inspiration. Who would you suggest that someone be, since they(muslim leadership) are quite sure that the Koran is Divine, & beyond interpretation, especially by outsiders/Kafirs?

Most of the communities (Hindus, & others) affected realize that ordinary muslims don't have anything directly to do with this, but Muslims worldwide have to contend with these actions being done in their name. They have to come out in public & offer convincing interpretations of Koran & explain what appear to any unbiased reader to be numerous violence inciting passages there.

The victims don't have the luxury anymore of saying 'It's OK this time."

Thanks & Regards.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------31.From: Gopalkrishnan iyer

Dear Vinay, I am in total agreement with all that is below. But let me place before you a few points-food for thoughtI have studied in a school in a machinery school established in 1813, known to be the first school in India.There is no denying the fact that we are indebted to them for the educational growth in India from then.70 % of students were christians and 10% muslims. I have never come across a religios divide at any point of time, this was in 1950s.Our main enemy is poverty and great deparity in income with no sign of aleviation. Politicians appear to use this as tool for meeting their ends. Tell me, for example, Mukhesh Ambani, for whatsoever reason, needs an income of 100 crores when there are millions not having a square meals for the whole life (still some live upto60 to 70 years!) There could be people in India who do not know to what religion they belong to, besides starving.

For such people what religion would you allocate? !! Hindu, Muslim or Christian ? Yes, for them food is the main religion and a promise, even if false, of food is all that necessary accept religion as may be dictated-leave alone shelter and clothing !! We have developed a charecter in which we tend, for convenience, to identify and attribute problems wrongly Country's efforts, if at all, to eradicate poverty has been a total failure- over the years it has increased abominably. Hindus, while on the subject, do not have a known set up to induct some one into their religion. ( Great Musician Yesudas is not allowed in temples in south) Whereas others do have and they are spread far and wide especially in the remote areas and the poor are their easy prey. It is very easy and natural- a few morsels of food all that it takes !! Remember when the war in Iraque was raging there were people in Kerala ready to go to iraque for employment saying at least we will have a few square meeals before

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dying of starvation ! I have been and and am travelling all over India including remote areas were the religiouss activities of other religions are anybody's guess.

We have internal border disputes between states. As an example if Kshmir is a reason for dispute I have a solution. India and Pakistan including Kashmir have poverty in abundance. Lt the World Body, UN put a condition to give Kashmir to any country, be it India or Pakistan, who eliminates poverty in their territory and give a time frame. If India eliminates Poverty within first let Kashmir be India's and if Pakistan eliminates poverty they deserve Kashmir !

Every one has an equal right to live an honourable life and let us aim at that, thinking only that we are all human

In any case it is absolutely necessary to have common code for all Indians !!

LET all of us and particularly the administration target at eradicating poverty instead of beating around the bushand political bickering!

Iyer GA---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------32.From: Dipak Parikh Hello! Thanx for mailing me.I am an Indian naional citizen.I have so many muslim friends also.As per my knowldge95% of muslims have no interest in any kind of violance or riots.But they don't have courage or b'coz of any pressure to come openly to oppose them.After Mumbai incident,very few of them have come out to oppose it.We should be united to face terrorism,forget politicians.ThanxDipak---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------33.From: Ram Ramchandani

I thoroughly agree with u in your well framed arguments. Not only Muslims but all citizens of India should speak up and rather stand up to the terrorists challenge. Secular institutions are the very soul of India's strength. Any attack on India is attack on the very foundation of India as a secular plural and multi-cultural nation state. It is good u have taken the initiative in this regard. I am a retired professor fully convinced that India cannot take this challenge lightly. It has to be firmly dealt with to make it abundantly clear to the terrorist groups world wide that India would rise in complete unity in matters which threaten not only its body but its very soul. Ram---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------34.I can't get into that. too many issues right now. ----- Original Message ----- From: NileshBhanage

No, they can discuss anything on earth, but I need their clear opinion / fatwa on these people, so that that entire Muslim community will not be targeted or misunderstood by country (On TV these Mulla

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were taking objection on Sania mirza’a dressing but were not able to speak on Osama Bil Landen openly on TV)

Very Warm Regards to them,Nilesh

From: karmayog.org

Just on this issue will be fine, isn't it?Vinay

----- Original Message ----- From: NileshBhanage

Dear All,

If What Vinay says it right..Then all Muslims should come front with True opinions on following people

1. Osama Bin Laden2. Pravez Mushraff3. The person who is jailed for attacking on Assembly. True opinion what it to be done with him?4. The list of terrorist which are hiding in Pakistan which our Indian media shows.

Regards,Nilesh---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------35.Dear Vinay, I appreciate the points raised by you. How very true and useful they are. Dr Nutan ThakurIRDSLucknow---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------36.Dear Vinay,

Ordinarily it should not be necessary for a Muslim or any other community to stand up and proclaim that they are Indians and are against such barbaric acts. Unfortunately, in the case of Muslims, there is more of a perception problem then anything else. This has arisen mainly due to lack of interaction / communication between the Hindus and Muslims and the situation is further aggravated due to vested groups in both the communities who are interested in widening the divide.

It has become 'We' and 'They'. This unseen wall between the communities has to be broken. Hence, it is not only for the Muslims to speak up, but also for all right thinking Hindus to speak up, nay every Indian to speak up. India is under a grave threat and the only best response can be total unity. Let religion be a personal affair and should help to unite and not divide people. We should learn to respect each other, irrespective of the religion.

Let us not demonise any religious group. A criminal is a criminal

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irrespective of the religion which he or she professes. We cannot allow the society to suffer by dividing criminals on the basis of religion and try to spoil the name of entire religious group.

There cannot be a 'Hindu Terrorist' or 'Muslim Terrorist', terrorist is just a criminal who is a black patch on the religion to which be belongs to or claims to belong to.

We need to propogate pan Indian identity so far as the nation is concerned, subsuming the personal identities for the larger cause.

Thanks,

S.D.Israni---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------37.From: manohar kapse

nice approach thanks---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------38.Dear Vinay

Here is a piece I wrote on related issues i.e. enagement between minorities and majorities, and minortyism.

Might be of interest.

Cheers

Arun

Let me start out by saying that I am from a minority religion too, an Indian citizen,describe myself as a hindu in my passport, grew up immersed in Hindu mythology and discovered my religion later . enjoy sufi and islamic devotional music and have had friends in all religions and any other denominations that you can think of all my life and see no conflict in any of these identities. In fact these are not conflicts at all since I am an Indian, just as you are at the very core of your being. A proud one at that.Yet the muslim community in India today finds itself, between a rock and a hard place.This is because of the rabble and its rousers in each family,society,community or nation.Mouthing ideological platitudes as we have been, since the hypocrisy of Indian politics institutionalized itself thanks to the congress culture and its lack of inner democracy which pervades the consciousness or the DNA of the politics of our country..This is a leadership failure at all levels, the family, society. community and national. And much as i dread to say this - it must be said that the leadership in the Muslim community - social, political,religious have all failed muslims miserably. And I am perhaps preaching to the choir here a bit, as your are obviously progressively minded people who visit or contribute to this site.I have also no reason to believe that most of the Indian muslim bretheren are any different from me since they grew up where I did and were also part of my cultural consciousness.The leadership at all fronts has failed. One significant domain of leadership that I have deliberately not discussed so far is the personal leadership domain.And this is the only domain where each one of us can be the change instead of demanding the change and guaranteeing failure by the nature of the exercise.The first step to change is recognizing the problem.

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The second is accepting it - i.e. getting out of denial mode.A large majority of us fail at the first step, a larger part of the remainder fail at the second step.The third step is contemplation - a few of us are able to do this dispassionately rising above our conditioning.The rest is easy once you have come this far, the popular myth of finding it hard to find the motivation just ceases to hold water when one has come this far.A wise man perhaps Einstein observed - The significant problems of today cannot be solved using the thinking that created it - i'd go further and say that trying to solve the significant problems of the day by the existing thinking (i say thinking, not wisdom) is the definition of lunacy.These are universal laws of life and could be defied only at ones own peril - one could be unhappy about gravitation and jump out of the nearest window in defiance - the results need no explanation.So how is this relevant to the current situation?Let us walk together and map it onto this current impasse and its deadly results.I believe that all muslims that are rational in their thinking will agree that the muslim community today finds itself generally stereotyped in the worst possible manner. This stereotyping stymies the progressive forces and the very key to the deadlock. While raving and ranting about it is an option but the fact is that some muslims have made large contributions to the formation of this stereotype globally. This venom within would need to be indentified and antidotes be made a part of personal lives of those of us who care.Let me also say that every individual,society and community generally craves and strives for what we can loosely call success.It is a universal desire and so the laws of success are universal.Again let me risk being a bit preachy - but let the faint of heart and spirit stop at this point, as they may not be able to stomach what follows as it involves personal change, that we never want to bring about unless forced by self interest.I think we are at such a point in time now.The origins, goals and motivations of this outrage in Mumbai are quite evident now.If there is any doubt in any mind on this planet on the fruit of ignorance, hatred and spiritual bankruptcy are, they need their head examined.That said, the outcome of one's life is clearly a sum total of choices we make at every step in our lives. This however is not so obvious to those who covet visible success or its spoils without having the stomach or susbtance for what that takes.For every terrorist or wastrel who justifies his acts in pursuit of vengeance is just a weakling who wishes to take the easy way out, trying to bargain a price for what he covets.That is the essential difference between the Salaskars',Karakres', Kamptes', Gajendra Singhs', Karambir Kangs' and Sandeep Unnikrishans' and the countless others who shall remain nameless and faceless in our consciousness on one hand and the Azam Amir Kasavs' and his ilk of the world.In our need to look compassionate and socially responsible we seem to try to defy these natural laws of life. In our eagerness to be liked we seem to be over-eager to hand out fishes and loaves to those and create a mentality of covetousness and create a belief that it is indeed righteous to to be so.What could be further from the truth about the forces of life.It is a delinquency in our roles as leaders, as we lead our siblings,children, colleagues,societies or indeed nations, if we lead ourselves or others to believe otherwise.Sympathy is a substance liable to abuse like any other and in fact is the most rampantly absuedof all opiates.So let us purge ourselves of the guilt that is distributed so liberally by all and sundry who pose as the wronged most often, when all they are doing is venting greed devoid of any intelligence -cognitive, emotional or spiritual- at all.Compassion, Humility and empathy are great virtues that all of must possess and pusrsue in greater measure, as we pursue greater success and make progress but let no one use this as an arm to twist behind our backs and hold entire nations and world to ransom.Let us not reward incompetent and stunted leaders with negotiated settlements to buy peace but lead them to paths that teach these essential and if that means not sparing the rod so be it.Let us not be delinquent in our responsibility towards the ones that we lead and those who choose to be in our care by letting our knees buckle and take easy ways out at any step or take cover under the

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fuselage of superficial debates that will now erupt and be fuelled by these men-of-words-and-little-else who lead us today in all domains.

It is here the progressive islam proponents can choose to carry the can forward.The temptation to let the "others" change first is rather inviting and we succumb to it often,Let me repeat - The significant problems of today cannot be solved using the thinking that created it .

Arun Kumbhat---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------39.Dear Mr. Vinay,Your mail in KD No.3970 dated 09.12.2008, has inspired me to response from the core of my heart as follows:

You have succinctly described why is it necessary for ordinary Muslim to speak up by giving the three reasons. There is another dimension to it.

The Muslims in India more often than not speak in language culturally belonging to other lands, forgetting their Indian roots. This is what provides links to the terrorists outside India whose aims and objects are not different from those in Malegaon.

There is no denying that unless the ordinary Muslim speaks one's own mind about terrorism and unwanted infiltration from unwanted quarters in foreign lands, the community will remain getting step-brotherly treatment from other Indian.

G. C. Mathur

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------40.You are absolutely right Vinay. Henceforth, there must be an upheaval against communalism. Within the territorial jurisdiction of India, a citizen of this country, by birth or by adoption/migration, irrespective of his/her caste, creed or religion, ARE CITIZENS OF INDIA. Nobody has any right to divide this country in the guise of communalism.

Besides, every citizen of this country have equal status, rights and of course duties. In fact, the real terrorists are our DIRTY POLITICIANS who divide and do all sorts of non sense for their own individual/party's benefit. We must put a total FULL STOP to such dirty politics.

We must make every people aware of this.

C R Ramakrishnanwarm greetings---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------41.a balanced approach.To my mind, the ordinary Common Man from Muslim community has first time brought out his inner voice openly and that shall go, I hope so, a long way in Muslim educated youth to enter the main stream of the population. As it is, the youth irrespective of religion is open for looking at the National matters on the basis of Merit and not get swayed by the political speeches /utterences.He /she is no more dependant on the whims of the religious leaders as he /she is financially independant It is high time the youth is made to undergo Military training for 6 months, with 8 days camp to inculcate some semblance of National feel of the matters.

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I had given Proposal to the easrtwhile Defence Minister GEORGE FERNANDES but it didnot get any response. Abhinandan regards, bhal patankar---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------42.From: R Krishan Jaggi

Well done.R K Jaggi---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------43.Dear Vinay, On the occasion of Eid 2008, it would also be good for all Indians, to know the substantial Muslim contribution to India's freedom struggle. Some facts about this are appended hereunder Alan Nazareth

Role of Muslims in India's independence movementThe contribution of Muslim revolutionaries, freedom fighters, poets and writers is well documented in India's struggle against the British. After the First war of Independence of 1857 many Moghul princes and nobles and hundreds of their kith and kin were shot or hanged near the gate of Red Fort, Delhi, which is now known as 'Khooni Darwaza'(the bloody gate). The renowned Urdu poet Mirza Ghalib(1797-1869) has given a vivid description of these massacres in his letters now published by the Oxford University Press 'Ghalib his life and letters'compiled and translated by Ralph Russel and Khurshidul Islam(1994). Barakatullah of Bhopal was one of the founders of the Ghadar party which created a network of anti-British organizations; Syed Rahmat Shah of the Ghadar party worked as an underground revolutionary in France and was hanged for his part in the unsuccessful Ghadar (mutiny) uprising in 1915; Ali Ahmad Siddiqui of Faizabad (UP) planned the Indian Mutiny in Malaya and Burma along with Syed Mujtaba Hussain of Jaunpur and was hanged in 1917; Muhammad Ashfaq Ullah Khan of Shahjehanpur looted the British treasury at Kakori (Lucknow). Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, Hakim Ajmal Khan, Rafi Ahmed Kidwai and Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan (also known as the Frontier gandhi) are prominent figures in India's freedom struggle. Other Muslims who fought for India's freedom were: Dr. Syed Mahmud, Professor Maulavi Barkatullah, Dr. Zakir Husain , Saifuddin Kichlu, Allama Shibli Nomani, Vakkom Abdul Khadir, Dr. Manzoor Abdul Wahab, Bahadur Shah Zafar, Hakeem Nusrat Husain, Samad Achakzai, Colonel Shahnawaz, Dr. M.A.Ansari, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmad, Ansar Harwani, Tak Sherwani, Nawab Viqarul Mulk, Nawab Mohsinul Mulk, Mustsafa Husain, VM Ubaidullah, SR Rahim, Badruddin Tyabjee, and Moulvi Abdul Hamid. Among Muslim women, Hazrat Mahal, Asghari Begum, Bi Amma were actively involved in the struggle of freedom. Vakkom Abdul Khadar of Kerala participated in the "Quit India" struggle in 1942 and was hanged;

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Umar Subhani, an industrialist and millionaire of Bombay provided financial support to Gandhi and the congress and ultimately gave his life for the cause of independence. Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar and Maulana Shaukat Ali struggled for the emancipation of the Muslims in the overall Indian context, and struggled for freedom alongside Mahatama Gandhi and Maulana Abdul Bari of Firangi Mahal. Dr. Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal, poet and philosopher, was a strong proponent of Hindu - Muslim unity and an undivdided India until the 1920s. Until 1930 Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a member of the Indian National Congress and very much a part of India's freedom struggle. It was only in the late 1930s, recognising widening gulf between the Indian National Congress and the Muslim League, Allama Muhammad Iqbal presented the concept of a separate Muslim homeland in India. . Consequently, the Muslim League raised the demand for a separate Muslim homeland. This demand was raised in Lahore in 1940 (Known as the Pakistan Resolution). Dr. Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal had passed away by then, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Nawabzada Liaquat Ali Khan,Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy, and some others led the Pakistan Movement. Initially, the demand was for a separate Muslim homeland within a framework of a large, independent, undivided India with autonomous regions governed by the Muslims. A number of other options to give the Muslim minority in India adequate protection and political representation in a free, undivided India, were also debated. However, when no common formula leading to early independence of India could be agreed between the Indian National Congress, the Muslim League, and the British Government, all three agreed on the division of India and creation of Pakistan as an independent, sovereign country,.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------44.Thanks.Keep it upB.S. Randhawa ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------45.From: N.P.MISHRA/PRESIDENT

Every Muslim is citizen of the country and is equally responsible of peace and unity.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------46. From: Tehmi Shroff

Very appropriate ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Angry – from Muslims

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Angry – from Hindus, others

47.

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so what is your suggestion for a solution? ----- Original Message ----- From: suraj prasad

It is not possible till they are under Islam due to its dual nature - http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/preacher_to_despot.htmhttp://www.danielpipes.org/comments/113386 Taqiyah or Holy Deception by Shahrukh Khan

By Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari

In a press interview on 6th December, Sharukh Khan, the well known Bollywood film star, told dark lies and said that the Koran does not inspire terrorism. He told the press that he has read English translation of Koran and the book does not contain any verse that instructs to kill innocent people. On the contrary, he said, the Koran says that if anyone hurts another man, he hearts the entire humanity and if one heels another man, he heels the entire humanity. In fact, Khan has quoted the verse (5.32) of the Koran that reads “…whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be regarded as having killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be regarded as saving all mankind.” It should be pointed out here that whenever Koran uses such lofty humane words, it should be understood that this humanity is confined within the Muslims alone. Koran has no headache to save the lives of the kafirs (non-Muslims) or doing any good to the kafirs. According to the Koran, kafirs are to be slain wherever they could be found.

So the verse (9.5) of the Koran says, “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters (i.e. kafirs) wherever ye find them, and take them (captive) and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is forgiving, Merciful.” Furthermore, through this verse, Koran declares that for the kafirs in a dar-ul-Islam (or a Muslim country), there are two alternatives, either Islam or death.

Today, only a stupid, ignorant of Islam and of the contents of the Koran, can say that Islam never preaches terrorism. But Shahrukh Khan has said all those rubbish and nonsensical lies not due to his ignorance of Islam. But knowing fully well the contents of the Koran, he has told all these lies simply to misguide and deceive the kafirs. But Khan should know that kafirs today are not so ignorant about Islam as they had been 10 or 20 years ago and it is not so easy to befool them now.

As a matter of fact, translations of Koran in English or in any other major Indian language are now easily available and hence it is not difficult for a kafir to procure one and go through the same. Particularly after 9/11, sale of Koran has gone up by many many times throughout the world. Had Khan been aware of these developments, he would have thought twice before telling all such blatant lies. In fact, by telling such lies, Khan has exposed himself as a stupid liar. He should also know that Internet is now doing an excellent job by exposing Islam to the world of kafirs and recently the film FITNA by Geert Wilders has vividly exposed that Koran and its violent verses of jihad are the fountainhead of Islamic terrorism. We hope that in his similar discourses in future he will restrain himself, so that he might not be taken as a mischievous liar by his fans.

However, the question remains, why this fellow, being fully aware of the contents of the Koran, talked like such a half educated idiot, before the press? There is an Arabic word “Taqiyah” that stands for “holy deception”. If a Muslim can deceive the kafirs by telling lies, or by giving false testimony in the court of law or by any other means, for the benefit of the Muslims, or for the

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benefit of Islam, the mischief is called taqiyah and Allah has assigned considerable merit on such an act. He will reward such a deceiver profusely on the Day of Last Judgment or Qiyamah.

Any kafir who knows abc of Islam is aware of the fact that the ultimate aim of Islam is to bring the entire world under the banner of Islam or to turn the entire world into a dar-ul-Islam (or land under the rule of Islam). And as part of that goal, India is to be conquered for Islam as soon as possible. So they are going on intensifying terror attacks on the Indian soil. A section of the Muslims are engaged in organizing attacks and procuring Arms and Explosives for the purpose while another section of Muslims are trying to deceive or hoodwink the Kafirs by playing Taqiyah. The reader may recall that a few months ago the clerics of Dar-ul-ulum Deoband, in a press statement, declared that Islam does not profess or support terrorism and a few months later they took out a procession decrying terrorism. But the madrassas that are being run by them are, in reality, are factories for producing terrorists and procuring and storing sophisticated weapons of jihad like AK-47 rifles and high explosives such as RDX and so on. So even a Billy-goat will refuse to believe that they are against terrorism and hence, their above mentioned declaration and propaganda were nothing but Taqiyah. On 7th December, a group of Muslim women took out a procession in Mumbai to condemn terrorism. But even a preliminary investigation might reveal that the women who took part in the said demonstration have taken part in the recent attack in Mumbai by contributing funds and providing safe haven for the terrorists. Hence, their above mentioned demonstration was also a taqiyah.

But the Muslims of these country, including Shahrukh Khan, should know that situation has changed greatly for past a few years. Millions and millions of Kafirs are now studying Koran to know the blood-thirsty creed called Islam and to defend any future onslaught of Islam in this country. So, we like to advise the Muslims, including Shahrukh Khan not to play taqiyah any more because all their efforts will be futile.

As a matter of fact, the Muslims of this divided India have no moral and ethical right to stay in this country. In 1940, these people said that they were a different nation and it was not possible for them to live peacefully with the hateful Hindu Kafirs. In 1947 they got their homeland Pakistan but these treacherous and mischievous people did not go to their cherished land but continued to stay in this country as resident non-Indians with their hidden agenda to make entire India into a dar-ul-Islam. Hindus of this country should have kicked them out as soon as Pakistan had been created. But they have been kind enough to allow them to stay in this country. But there is also a limit of their tolerance and a further irritation might compel them to drive them out of this country.

The author takes the liberty of quoting a few more verses of Koran below so that the reader may judge for himself whether Koran is a book of love and compassion or it is a book of hatred, terror and bloodshed.

Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain.(9/111)

Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael! Then lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.(2/98)

Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them who are unknown to you but known to Allah (8/60)

Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before Allah has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude?(3/142)

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NB: In plain words, jihad means indiscriminate killing of kafirs, plundering their wealth, occupying their land and other properties by sword, fire and rape. In fact, Islam as a creed has nothing to do with spiritualism and its sole intention is to create an empire throughout the world and hence it puts greatest virtue in its military component, jihad, or fighting against the kafirs with the ultimate motive of eliminating them en masse. Hence for a Muslim, launching a jihad or war against the kafirs, is the highest virtue; higher even than a pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj), not to speak of lower virtues like prayer (namaj) and fasting (roja). So the Koran says, “Fighting against the kafirs is beyond one’s personal likings and dislikings as Allah has commanded to fight the pagans and all those who ascribe partners (shirk) with Allah” (2.216).

******************************************* The author is a Professor of Applied Physics, University of Calcutta ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------48.oye professor, so what's your main point that you are not speaking out?btw, it's so sad that your name is a combination of radha and shyam.vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: RADHASYAM BRAHMACHARI

Taqiyah or Holy Deception by Shahrukh Khan ------- By Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari (article already reproduced above)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------49.why don't you share your knowledge about them with me? ----- Original Message ----- From: Arun Thaker

DO YOU KNOW ******* MUSLIM IN INDIA or any where are supporting agrravation ...just involved in criminal activities .......? Stop ******* this email if you do not know about ******* bye----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------50.I don't know where you get your Hindu beliefs from.Certainly not from the Bhagwad Gita, that's for sure. Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: HinduKrantivir

Dear VinayajiI am not muslim SO DON'T SEND such idiotic and pathetic greeting message to me. it is and insult and shameful to recive such message from a Hindu to Hindu. Be proud to be hindu and don't indulge in such self insulting practice. Presesnt indian muslims show is to save their neck and the neck of their brotherly pakistan. If indian muslims are loyal than there would not be any chance for pakistan to explode a single bomb in india. Every muslim of india directly or indirectly support and finance such terrorism to see india transformed into darul islam. Be practical and realistic and stop propogating such cosmetic surgery.

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regardshk----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------51.From: karmayog

Dear Ohriji, slainpatriotsforum because that's what it will consist of if you advocatewar which is what your line of logic is pushing towards. unless of course, you want to goad others to go and fight in thebattlefield, and not join in yourself. 'Now to return to the topic which I had brought up', which is what iscontained in the subject line, I would like to stick to that and not go offon a tangent about one sentence in between the note.Basically, I don't want to be flooded with emails about verses in theKoran --- either from Muslims or from Hindus (I have had enough of those). I am also 'appalled' that you choose to assume that what has been written byIM and even by others to be believed and embraced by ordinary muslims. Ihope muslims don't think like that about ordinary hindus, when hinduhardliners choose to say some absolute nonsense. Now I would like to repeat your sentence, so that you can see it reflectedin your own mirror --- 'You may be running an NGO, but that is not the wayin which an educated andcultured gentleman should exchange ideas / views.' And, if you have any sensible way to solve issues pertaining to terrorism orcommunal harmony, please speak up. Else refrain from war-mongering. If youhave the guts to do something, you go ahead and do it. Dont' spread hate. And, by the way, I absolutely don't like people who bring in a lot of otherpeople into the conversation without bothering to explain who they are andwhy!! This is only done by people who want to throw muck on others. Vinay ----- Original Message -----From: "R.K. Ohri" <[email protected]>

Dear Shri Vinay I am appalled at your attempt to give a cross-eyed slant to the name of ourThinktank by referring to it as "slainpatriotsforum'. Pray, what do youmean by that expression ? We are not slain patriots / human beings, not atleast tille now - not till a group of 10 or 20 trained jihadis savage Delhiin a manner which would put Mumbai massacre to shame! You may be running an NGO, but that is not the way in which an educated andcultured gentleman should exchange ideas / views.

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Now to return to the topic which you had brought up, namely your greatconcern for Muslims - without knowing how and why Quran teaches jihadisto use terror to convert the entire world into Dar-ul Islam, and about howthey are wired to treat 'kaffirs" like you and me. Pl. read the followingverses from Quran, if you want to know why 10 Fidayeens ruthlessly killed200 innocents and injured another 400 Mumbaikars : Verse 8.12 says "I am with you: give Firmness to the Believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips". Sahih Bukhari $:52.22 explains that Allah's Apostle said "I have been made victorious by terror cast in the hearts of the enemy". Do you still wonder why the jihadis killed innocents, including children andwomen, without batting an eyelid. What motivated these 10 madcaps to killinnocents, including women and children - all kaffir Hindus, of course.Remember they let off a Turkish Muslim couple after they were told that theyare Muslims. Now please read the following to understand why they killed'kaffirs' : Verse 9.5 says "Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaterswherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and beseige them, andprepare for them each ambush." Dear Mr Vinay did you read the 14 page long e-mail (embellished with QuranicVerses) issued by Indian Mujahideed in July this year which commanded allHindus to embrace Islam under duress. And threatening that if Hindus don'taccept Islam that e-mail threatened to slaughter Hindus in the same manneras their forebears were massacred by Mahmud Ghazanvi and Muhammad Ghauri.Pl get a copy (it has been kept under wraps by the government acting incahoots with our collusive media) and read it. That should make you a wiserman. The least you can do to educate yourself is to buy a copy of Yusuf Ali'sQuran ( in English with parallel verses cited in Arabic). That will enableyou to understand what is jihad and what is going to be the fate of thefuture generations of India (read Hindus), say in another 2 decades. Alsoread that apostate Muslim lady Irshad Manji's book, 'The Trouble With IslamToday' to know more about Islam. Do you know that Niall Ferguson (a strategic analyst who teaches at Harvard)had forecast 4 years ago that within next 50 years Europe will become aMuslim dominated continent? Reason: fast paced Muslim population growth. Do you know that in Sweden aggressive Muslim youth, conscious of their fastpaced population growth, are already wearing T' Shirts proclaiming '2030and then we take over" ? This has been stated by Bruce Bawer in his famoustome 'While Europe Slept'. Do you know that Islam / Al Qaeda has an international goal of establishing

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a "seamless caliphate from Indonesia to the Balkans" ? And India is theonly obstacle in the creation of that seamless caliphate. Pl. read the books/ writing of Alija Izzetgovich and proclamations of Al Qaida. Mr. Vinay, first pl. read and then only think about the remedies /solutions. If you don't know the problem how will you find a solution ?Have you come across any doctor who could suggest a remedy without firstdiagnosing the disease ? At least I have not. I can give you many more instances of Islam's global design to overrun theworld. Unless you read Quran and the pernicious doctrine of jihad, which isIslam's permanent war against all kaffirs, you won't understand the A, B,and C of Mumbai Massacre, why Mumbai and Delhi are world's most bombedmetropolises. It is time for you and others like you to wake from deep slumber. There are unconfirmed reports that Al Qaeda, LeT, Jaish-e Muhammad, etc.,have plans to raise a jihadi contingent of 10,000 Mujahideens / Fidayeens,preferably better trained and more determined than the 10 daredevils whooverran Mumbai and held the 100 billion plus Indian nation to ransom for 62hours. Think of that threat (or empty boast, if you don't believe they havethe means to do it) and then fault our thinktank. Our only hope is that wewill be able to awaken our sleeping / comatose people (read ill informedHindus). If you have the inclination to become aware, I can mail to you some of myseminar papers on Jihad as well as demographics. RegardsRam [email protected]

----- Original Message -----From: "karmayog" karmayog ok, so what is your suggestion for a solution?not a 'slainpatriotsforum' i hope.

vinay

----- Original Message -----From: "R.K. Ohri" <[email protected]>

Dear Shri Vinay

You are easily the most ill informed person. Please first read Quran andthen speak or write. Nearly one half of Quran reads like a WAR BOOK.First > educate yourself and only then ponificate. Even M J Akbar has prclaimed inhis tome The Shade of Swords that "Jihad is the signature tune of Islamichistory.

Pl. remember the old saying "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" andlearn to be more knowledgeable and wide awake. The result of falsepropaganda by persons like you will only ensure more and more killings ofcomatose Hindus - as happened during the diabolical Mumbai Massacre very

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recently.

regards Ram

[email protected] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 52.Isn't it obvious that a discussion on the koran would be pointless in the context of what i am trying to say in this email. in trying to collectively find some solutions?now you want to instigate a discussion about Vedic dharma.anyway, i don't know anything about it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Suresh Vyas

Ref. line: "I am also not interested in any quote from the Quran, because it is very clear in my mind that the Quran can not advocate or support such activity." Yes, one has freedom to choose to not know the truth, or just hold on to one's own opinion no matter what. The quotes from the books of well known authrors are give at below links: http://www.geocities.com/shvyaas/QuotesFromHolyTerror.html http://www.geocities.com/shvyaas/QtesFromAgeOfSacredTerror.html Other authors are: Ali Sina, Salman Rushdai,etc. who share what is in koran.

Dear Vinay, what is that that makes the Vedic dharma more attractive to you that islam please? I assume you are Vedic, as your name suggests.jai sri krishna!Suresh Vyas----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------53.Isn't it obvious that a discussion on the koran would be pointless in the context of what i am trying to say in this email. in trying to collectively find some solutions? now you want to instigate a discussion about Gandhi and Nehru.

----- Original Message ----- From: Koti Sreekrishna

I already addressed your GREAT main point.You did make a good point. However, you dipped it withyour clear thinking on something you don't know!How many times you want me to address that.

The other point, which also, you don't seem to understand even afterme repeating it numerous times is:I don't want Hindus to make blanket statement such as theone you made on other religions. Is it so hard for you to understand?

I don't want anyone to hate anyone. That is solely your idea.

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Again coming out of your mind, with no basis, like your comment on Koran. If at all, the only two worthy of our hate are Gandhi and Nehrufor the misery their ideology has caused to all in the Indian sub-continent.

That is all.

KST

From: karmayog

First you should get my point before I will listen to your point. I said many things in my email.First talk about my main poin t, then talk about other points. My impression about you is that you simply want everyone to hate all muslims.Am i right?Yes or no? ----- Original Message ----- From: Koti Sreekrishna

You still did not get my point.Don't pass on blanket statements about things you don't know.That is all my request.Because that does not seem to sink in, all the unnecessarydiscussion we are getting into.

KST

-----Original Message-----From: karmayog

We don't have a holiday for Gita Jayanti because Hindus do not speak unitedly. Isn't it obvious that a discussion on the koran would be pointless in the context of what i am trying to say in this email. ----- Original Message ----- From: Koti Sreekrishna

I already replied to your main point. Yes, it is important that the Muslims everywhere should react stronglyto terrorism by all, including Jihadis. Muslims react very strongly, if anything is considered againsttheir religion- however, they send luke warm response (even that too only lately, especially post 9/11) when terrorist invokes Islam.

You still missed my main objection. Is it so hard for you to "not speak" of somethingyou don't know and hide it under in my mind or my opinion- withoutunderstanding the subtle implications of such pronouncements?

All my respect for Gandhi and Nehru went to gutters, after I read Koran.At the same time, my respect for Jinnah's point of view increased.This is a major problem with Hindu leadership and the Hindus in general. We

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never understood the seriousness of Islam or Christianity-yet made and keep making decisions on those matters.We never understood Hinduism either. Otherwise, why don't wehave a national holiday for Gita jayanthi?

KST

-----Original Message-----From: karmayog

Actually, I did not want to be flooded by references to the Quran -- from either Muslims or Hindus.I have not read the koran.I want a reply to my main point which is the one in the subject line.Vinay

----- Original Message ----- From: Koti Sreekrishna I am also not interested in any quote from the Quran, because it is very clear in my mind that the Quran can not advocate or support such activity. You have made some very good points. Muslim community this time has disallowed burying thoseterrorists in Muslim burial grounds. That is a positive development. However, they need to do lot more.Like the kind of protests we saw against=2 0Taslima and the Dutch cartoonist.

However, kindly resist the temptation not to speak of things you don't seem to know.Have you read Quran? How can you just say that it is very clear in your mind, without reading? This is a burning problem in=2 0general with the Hindus. Many of our sincere fools (Gandhi/Nehru for example) interpreted other religions with a Hindu mindset- even when thecountry was being partitioned to carve out a holy Islamic state. Most Hindus don't know their religion or care to know. Yet pass on blanket statements on behalf of other rel igions!

KST----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------54.OKbut what i would like to know from you is your idea of a possible solution.surely you must have reached a conclusion on that by now. ----- Original Message ----- From: Saroj Kumar

glad that you wrote back and asked for a clarification.

I think that you are being delusional about Quran and it is evident from this line: "it is very clear in my mind that the Quran can not advocate or support such activity. "

This indicates that you think that Quran does not advocate this or that. That's the reason, I urge you to pay attention to what Quran, Shariyath and more importantly, Hadith says. Do pay attention to how Muslim Societies are and have been or were earlier or are going to become.

Regarding what is happening in Hinterland and Outerland, you need to do some offbeat search, away from our politically correct, mainstream media. There is some good work done by our investigative journalists and freelancers. Look up google video and you tube for some relevant content - hints are Bangladesh, India Nepal Border, New Delhi, UK.....

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Open your mind and rest will follow.

You might reach a conclusion which might/might not agree with what others think but it will be based on your own conviction and that is a worthy goal to shoot for.

Satyamev Jayate.

Regards, Saroj

From: karmayog i am being delusional about what? that ordinary muslims will speak up?that ordinary muslims don't agree with the versions that you have mentioned?that hindus will believe ordinary muslims even if they speak up?orthat i believe that you will like this approach for a solution towards communal harmony?(reg. that, you are right i suppose) btw, how do you know about what is happening in the hinterlands of India and the outerlands of the world? and how do i come to know if i want to? ----- Original Message ----- From: Saroj Kumar

You are being delusional.

You should pay some attention to what is happening in hinterland of India and what is being preached in mosques around the world.

Pay some attention to Hadith and Wahabi version of Islam. You will be awakened. Regards, Saroj----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------55.i am following what i understand it preaches.i have the right to ask you to tell me what you have done for Hindu Dharma because you call yourself Hindu Krantivir. In fact, you hide behind it. In any case, you don't seem to know enough about the Gita. Would you like to be educated about it? ----- Original Message ----- From: HinduKrantivir

If you are the true biliver of Shrimad Bhagavad Gita FOLLOW WHAT IT PREACH. If you can't be the good character of your name, forget about Shrimad Bhagavad Gita and dharma. Who the hell are you to ask me what I have done foe Hindu Dharma? I must say that i will not a coward, hypocrite and pseudo secular like you, WHO BELIEVE IN Shrimad Bhagavad Gita and question its tennets same time, to invite self destruction of Hindu Dharma and Nation for sure.

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HK----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------56.

i don't care about millions of websites.i don't care about muslim scholars.i care about what ordinary muslims feel. similarly, i don't care what hardliner hindus like you feel. (I have understood the Gitaji well enough to know firmly that your approach is wrong.) Hardliners don't have any depth of understanding anyway. They have simply convinced themselves because that is what an ego needs to be hardlined. All very simply psychological stuff for anyone with an open mind. i care about what hindus in general feel. (and you are almost certainly not their voice.) I haven't seen the two sites you have mentioned. From the names itself, they seem to be all wrong. vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: HINDU VOICE

www.faithfreedom.orgwww.hindutva.org Go to www.google.com and give a search command Islam. You will get millions of websites. Many are maintained by Muslim scholars. Just see what they say about Hadith. Internet is a god-sent opportunity to know about Islam, which was otherwise not possible a few years ago. karmayog wrote: have you done so i.e. Quron and Hadith (the acts of Mohammed) should be freely discussed threadbare. if so, please send us the url.

----- Original Message ----- From: HINDU VOICE Fine. I have read Quron many times. I have also read Hadith. Hence my hatred towards Islam. Please note that I am not a religious fanatic. A Hindu who believes in pluralism cannot be a fanatic. Quron and Hadith (the acts of Mohammed) should be freely discussed threadbare. This will make gullible non-Muslims like you to understand the criminal ideology of Islam, and the danger it poses to humanity. Quron should be rewritten, and Mohammed should be discarded. As a Hindu believing in 33 crores Gods, I am not averse to another god, named Allah and offering prayer (Namaaz) to him. Islam - minus Mohammed and a redrafted Quron should be OK. But this is not an easy task. Common Muslims should be extricated from the clutches of Mullahs and Maulvis. All Masjids and Madrasas, especially those built in Slums, must be demolished and a multi-story building should be built on the land - with schools and residences for Muslims. A Masjid is frequented only by male Muslims. A residential complex will make the standard of living of the entire Muslim family higher. The school should impart modern education. Madrasas education, which breeds terrorism, should be banned. By discussion, debate, seminars and conferences, Muslims should be made aware that the entire problem in the world is only because of Quran and Hadith, which is against humanity. They must be taught family planning. Once they understand the real import of Hadith that it is against humanity, they will

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start leaving Islam - they will become ex-Muslims. England and Turkey, even Mumbai, has many ex-Muslims. But when educated and intelligent persons like you (even George Bush and Tony Blair) start praising Islam, there will be no end to the matter. Bush and Blair may be right to some extent. They feel that Bible too has some verses which are against humanity. But Christianity has come a long way since them. Today you ask any Christian, he will immediately disown it. Will a Muslim do so? Muslims still stick to the 1400 year old scrap of paper. Exposing Quran and Hadith to every human being is the only solution.

If you have time, please visit www.faithfreedom.org. You will get enlightened.

karmayog> wrote: so what is the solution that you suggest to this problem? ----- Original Message ----- From: HINDU VOICE You say "I am also not interested in any quote from the Quran, because it is very clear in my mind that the Quran can not advocate or support such activity." This exactly is the problem with secularists. There are 6236 Ayats in Quron. Out of which abut 3900 spread hatred, intolerance and violence. About 900 of them speak of killing, raping, burning, looting hell-fire, etc. And still you have the audacity to say "Quran can not advocate or support such activity". Are you an authority on Quron? Did any Moulvi say this? The terrorists are exactly following the footsteps of Mohammed. How do you think Islam captured about 55 countries in 1400 years? It is exactly like this. But in today's information age, we come to know of these attacks. In olden days, where there was no newspapers or TV, there was no way to know about these attacks, and Jihadis went on conquering lands. A pigeon thinks that if it closes its eyes, the cat will not catch it. You will realise it only when Jihadis knock at your doors. Yes. There are good Muslims too like APJ Abdul Kalam. But what can they do? Do you think that Maulvis consider APJ a Muslim? You know what happened when Salman Khan performed Aarti to Ganapathy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------57.

Wow. You must be walking always looking behind your shoulder. And you think that ordinary muslims also believe this? And if so, what are your own ideas for a solution? If it's to kill all muslims, will you volunteer to go to the battlefield? Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Rishi Dwivedi

The Seeds of Islamic FundamentalismCompiled by Stephen Knapp We all know that most Muslims are not terrorists, nor do they want to quarrel with others. The majority of them simply want to worship God in their way and live a peaceful life. So why does there seem to be friction and difficulties that often involve Muslims? And why are there so many terrorists in the world who, indeed, call themselves followers of Islam? Where do we find the seeds of their motivation?

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As we uncover these verses in the Koran to see what it really says, bare in mind that these are not mistranslations into English as some people will suggest. All these verses are derived from "The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary" by 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali, published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, USA, in cooperation with the International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT). So this edition of the Koran is approved and sanctioned by this Muslim organization. So there should be no argument that these verses mean something other than what they say as follows. The Koranic References for the Sword Against Non-Muslims Does the Koran itself give credence to strike against kafirs and infidels, those who are non-Muslims, or to conduct a holy war to protect and expand the faith? When we study the Koran, particular verses of it certainly seem to provide such viewpoints. The fact is that there are numerous ayats (verses) in the Koran that confirm the ways for Muslims to view and treat non-Muslims. For example: "O Prophet! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding." (Surah 8:65) "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them." (Surah 8:12) "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure." (Surah 61:4) These verses certainly seem to give a harsh view of non-Muslims in the way it prescribes treatment of them. When it comes to the attitude that the Koran displays for those who are not Muslims, the verses make it clear what is to be done. This is not merely in a few sparse verses, as if we are misunderstanding what is being said, but in several. For example, in the following verses, perpetual war and divisiveness for the destruction of non-Muslims and their religion is recommended until the whole world becomes converted to Islam. "Say to the unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; But if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; But if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do." (8.38-39) Furthermore, if the Koran specifically relates a harsh view toward infidels, non-Muslims, then that would make it even easier for militant Muslims to feel there is little harm in ill-treating or even killing those who are participants of other religions. In this regard we find the following verses in the Koran: "Verily ye (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides Allah, are (but) fuel for Hell! To it will ye (surely) come!" (Surah 21:98) "(The sentence will be:) Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejector (of Allah)!; Who forbade what was good, transgressed all bounds, cast doubts and suspicions; who set up another god beside Allah: throw him into a severe penalty." (Surah 50:24) "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks [cut off their heads]; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); But (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others, but those who are slain in the way of Allah [for the cause of Allah]--He will never let their deeds be lost. Soon He will guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them." (Surah 47:4-6) "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst creatures. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds--they are the best of creatures." (Surah 98:6 and 7) This last verse seems to refer directly to the Jews (People of the Book) and Hindus (polytheists) as future residents of hell. These verses seem to give justification to expanding the faith not necessarily with spiritual knowledge, or understanding and purity, but by what would be military strength under the Will of Allah. In light of recent discussions about what is or is not Islamic Jihad, referring to the holy war of Muslims overcoming evil, does this mean that there also should be war or the use of terror against non-Muslims? Are non-Muslims viewed as evil within the verses of the Koran? The following verses (Surah 9:5,6) sheds light on the Prophet's idea of what really is Jihad, and whether it includes war against the infidels: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever

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ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in ever stratagem (of war); But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful." So this would indicate that the Koran's version of the "Mercy of God" offers unbelievers the "choice" to convert to Islam or die. Even though the words of the Koran were written many years ago, and pertained to a different set of circumstances, they are still applied today with the same seriousness by many. When the Koran mentions that Muslims should "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in ever stratagem (of war)," the idea seems to indicate the means to make the enemy live in a state of perpetual terror. Since Islam is also called "din-e-Ghalib," which means the religion of dominance by God's will, Muslim minorities in non-Islamic countries may feel that they can do everything possible to harass and harangue the host countries to practice their faith or culture, or to allow Muslims to have special privileges based on following their faith over and above abiding by the local national laws. The basis for this concept could also be justified within the Koran (Surah Anfal, 8:59-60) where it says: "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know." This seems to be saying that even if others die in the process, "whom ye may not know," Allah will judge whether they are believers or pagans--those who have accepted Gods other than Allah. And then the soldiers of Allah are assured that they will be properly recognized for whatever sacrifice they make to Him, as stated here in the remainder of the verse: "Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly." It is also said: "O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about and let them find firmness [hardness] in you; and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." (Surah 9.123) "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among The People of the Book [the Jews], until they pay the Jizyah, and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9.29) The Jizyah means to pay tribute or compensation, or the tax that was levied against those who did not accept Islam. So, it would seem that on the basis of the above verses, infidels and all non-Muslims may actually be fit to be subdued, crushed, or even exterminated, and that it could even be considered a favor to Allah to rid the world of them. After all, they are believed to be going to hell anyway. Furthermore, these verses also show that those who die for Allah or the cause of Islam will be recognized and even delivered to the garden of paradise. With the basis of verses like these, it is no wonder that it is not difficult to arouse young Muslims for the Islamic cause in the training camps of Al-Qaida, Taliban, and other militant and fundamentalist groups. It is inestimable how much bloodshed has already been shed throughout history because of this teaching. So it should not be surprising that the radical Islamic leader Abdullah Shah Mazhar recently got 5,000 volunteers to take the "oath of death" and commit themselves to suicide squads in attacks against the U.S. and other "infidel forces". The fact is that many Muslims feel that one day Islam will dominate the world, and there are those who are specifically working to bring that about as soon as possible, and sometimes in whatever way they feel works best. However, this is not new. Swami Vivekananda in a lecture in California in January of 1900 said regarding this aspect of Islam: "Every step forward was made with the sword--the Quran in one hand and the sword in the other: Take the Quran, or you must die; there is no alternative!" Mahatma Gandhi also spoke about this aspect of Islam. After the assassination of Swami Shraddhanand by a Muslim fanatic in December, 1926, he said: "Mussalmans have an ordeal to pass through. There can be no doubt that they are too free with the knife and the pistol. The sword is no emblem of Islam. But Islam was born in an environment where the sword was, and still remains, the supreme law. The message of Jesus has proved ineffective because the environment was unready to receive it. So with the message of the Prophet. The sword is yet too much in evidence among the Mussalmans. It must be sheathed if Islam is to be what it means--peace." Allah's Call For War, or Else

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In the mood for achieving dominance, as we have seen, many Islamic terrorists are ready to give up their lives for the cause. They engage in suicide attacks wherein it is part of the plan that they will give up their lives, often believing that by doing so they automatically go to heaven. So does the Koran justify this idea as well? In this respect we find the following verses: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord." (Surah 3:169) "O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth in the Cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter." (Surah 9:38) So, herein we find the Koran practically encouraging the anticipation for reaching the next life, even if it means giving up your own for "the Cause of Allah." The odd thing is that the Koran advocates war against non-believers, at least according to the verses that have been listed herein, and now it also advocates punishment for those believers (Muslims) that do not fight against those unbelievers when they are called to do so. And those that do take up war will be rewarded into the Garden. The verse that clarifies this reads as such: "Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous penalty. No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and His Messenger--(Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; And he who turns back (Allah) will punish him with a grievous penalty." (48:16-17) "O ye who believe! When ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day--unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)--he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell--an evil refuge (indeed)!" (8:15-16) Kill the Unbelievers The Koran goes on to order: "And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have turned you out; For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." (2:191) Let us point out that to "suppress faith" in this case means not only curbing Islam but to advocate faith in God by any other path. "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail Justice and faith in Allah; But if they cease, let here be no hostility except to those who practice oppression." 2:193) "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposites sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (5:33) "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers." (9:14) "O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque." (9:28) "O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed." (9:73) "(Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah: for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgement We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire)." (22.9) "So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavor." (25:52) "And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared for those who reject Allah a blazing Fire!" (48:13) "'Bring yet up', it shall be said, 'The wrong-doers and their wives, and the things they worshipped--Besides Allah, and lead them to the Way to the (Fierce) Fire!" (37:22-23) The Rewards and Punishments in the Koran

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What makes the idea of who is saved and who is worthy of hell more clear is that there are specific rewards given by Allah for the believers and punishments for the non-believers that are related in the Koran. Some of these are as follows: "As to the righteous (they will be) in a position of Security. Among gardens and springs. Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other; Moreover, We shall join them to Companions with big, beautiful and lustrous eyes. There can they call for every kind of fruit in peace and security; Nor will they there taste death, except the first death; and He will preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire--As a bounty from thy Lord! That will be the supreme achievement! Verily, We have made this (Quran) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed." (44:43-58) "To Him will be your return--of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He who beginneth the process of creation, and repeateth it, that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness; But those who reject Him will have draughts of boiling fluids, and a penalty grievous because they did reject him." (10:4) "These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord)--For them will be cut out a garment of fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), 'Taste ye the penalty of burning!" (22:19-22) "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: For any that disobey Allah and His Messenger--for them is hell: they shall dwell therein forever." (72.23) "And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty grievous (indeed)." (17:10) "For the Rejectors We have prepared chains, yokes, and a blazing fire. As to the righteous, they shall drink of a cup (of wine) mixed with Kafur. A fountain where the devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance." (Surah 76: 4-6) "Verily the [judgement] day of sorting out is a thing appointed. The day that the trumpet shall be sounded, and ye shall come forth in crowds; and the heavens shall be opened as if there were doors, and the mountains shall vanish, as if they were a mirage. Truly Hell is a place of ambush--for the transgressors a place of destination: They will dwell therein for ages. Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink, save a boiling fluid and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold--a fitting recompense (for them)." (Surah 78:17-26) "As to those who reject faith I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone for help." (Surah 3.56) "Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a blazing fire--to dwell therein forever: No protection will they find, nor helper." (Surah 33.64-65) "And when there comes to them A Book from Allah, confirming what is with them--although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without faith--when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized. They refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without faith." (Surah 2.89) "Those who reject (Truth) among the People of the Book and among the polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them clear evidence. . . Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the polytheists, will be in Hellfire, to dwell therein (for aye), they are the worst of creatures. [But] those who have faith and do righteous deeds--they are the best of creatures. Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow, they will dwell therein forever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and cherisher." (Surah 98:1, 6-8) "Allah will deliver them from the evil of that day, and will shed over them a light of beauty and a (blissful) joy. And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a garden and (garments of) silk. Reclining in the (garden) of raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. And the shades of the (garden) will come low over them, and the bunches (of fruit), there will hang low in humility. And among them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal." (Surah 76:11-15) Allah Guides Those to Heaven or Hell as He Likes The Koran explains in numerous verses that those who reject Allah is sent to hell by Him. However, in several verses it is described how Allah will guide those He wants in order that they go the proper way, and will leave astray those He chooses, who are then left to go to hell. So how can there be blame by Allah for those who become unbelievers (non-Muslims) if Allah Himself decides

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not to guide one properly? The verses read as follows: "Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown Veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; If they saw every one of the Signs, they will not believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee; the unbelievers say; 'These are nothing but tales of the ancients.'" (6:25) To make this more clear, this next verse also explains how this takes place: "We (too) shall turn to (confusion) their hearts and their eyes, even as they refused to believe in this in the first instance: We shall leave them in their trespasses, to wander in distraction." (6:110) "When thou dost recite the Quran, We put between thee and those who believe not in the hereafter, a veil invisible. And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Quran, and deafness into their ears; when thou dost commemorate thy Lord--and Him alone--in the Quran, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth). (17:45-46) "We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases. And He is exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom." (14.4) "If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions." (16.93) "Whom Allah doth guide--he is on the right path: Whom He rejects from His guidance--Such are the persons who perish." (7:178) Now what is the reason why Allah rejects one and not the other? And why does He not bring people together as one people if He could, only to leave them in divisions and quarreling with each other? Every other God in any other culture always seems to come with a message in an attempt to unite people and establish peace. Why does Allah not do the same if He is God? This is not clearly answered, but another verse still explains the prerogative that Allah takes on those He has created. "It is he whom Allah guides, that is on true guidance; but he whom He leaves astray--for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgement we shall gather them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, we shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire." (17:97) Hypocrites Do Not Reach Allah We also find that the Koran states that even Muslims who do not properly remember Allah are but hypocrites. And they do not reach Allah. "The hypocrites--they think they are over-reaching Allah but He will over-reach them: When they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen of men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance." (4:142) Thus they may also reach the punishment of hell. The Punishment of Hell the Destination for all Non-Muslims The hellish conditions described in the Koran evolve around being cast into hellfire and being forced to drink and be bathed in boiling water. "(They will be) in the midst of a fierce blast of fire and in boiling water, and in the shades of black smoke. Nothing (will there be) to refresh, nor to please." (56:42-44) The Koran makes it clear that all non-Muslims, unbelievers, will go to eternal hell. There is no second chance or allowance for any alternative to the Muslim religion in the eyes of the Koran. Yet, the hell that is described is not merely suffering forever, but is the entrance to a hellfire that roasts one's skin eternally. "Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the fire; As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise." (4:56) "Verily the tree of Zaqqum will be the food of the sinful--like molten brass; It will boil in their insides, like the boiling of scalding water. A voice will cry: "Seize ye him and drag him into the midst of the Blazing Fire! Then pour over his head the Penalty of Boiling Water. Taste thou (this)! Truly wast thou mighty, full of honour! Truly this is what ye used to doubt! (44: 43-50) The Koran's Views of Jews and Christians There are verses in the Koran that describe the Jewish people and the Christians in both favorable and unfavorable terms. In one place it explains that even those of other religions who believe in Allah have nothing to fear. "Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the

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Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians--Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work in righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (This verse is found in both 2:62 & 5.69) However, the Koran goes on to place the Jews in the same category as the pagans as having enmity toward the believers, who are of course the followers of Islam: "Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans." Then the same verse in the Koran goes on to praise the Christians: "And nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': Because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth. They pray: 'Our Lord! We believe; write us down among the witnesses." (5:82-83) Another verse with a similar sentiment is, "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il; Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (3.84) So here is another verse which indicates the possible unity or cooperation and respect between Islam and other religions. This begins to sound a little reasonable. It is a rare verse in the Koran that proclaims respect for other religions, and it would be good if Muslims would focus more on such verses. Yet right after this verse we find it said, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)." (3.85) We could say that yes, the ultimate religion is surrender to God, and Allah is a name for God, so we may agree with this principle. But in Islam there is only one way to surrender and that is to Allah alone. To surrender to another, or to use or respect any other name for God is a blasphemy in Islam. Furthermore, any cooperation between Christianity and Islam is a fine line because Christians say that Jesus is the son of God. This is a view that the Koran condemns. In the following verses we find that the infidels include those who think that God begot a son, meaning the Christians. "(Those) who say (Allah) Most Gracious [Lord] has begotten a son! Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! As if the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin. That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not constant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son." (Surah 19:88-92) "Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, 'Allah hath begotten a son'; No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying. What they say is nothing but falsehood!" (Surah 18:4-5) The Koran also strongly rejects the idea of combining or identifying other Gods with Allah, as related in the following verse. Muslims are often not so liberal as other religions in this regard. In fact, the Koran says that even Jesus recommended that Christians take up the worship of Allah, and that anyone who identifies Allah with any other god will go to the eternal fire: "They do blaspheme who say: 'Allah is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' Whoever joins other Gods with Allah–Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help." (5.72) Another point to consider is that not only does the Koran not consider Jesus the son of God, but it also offers little more respect to Jesus than one would for a mere messenger. This would not bode well with most Christians, wherein it is stated in the Koran: "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; Yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5.75) The Koran further elaborates that, "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: 'Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother and all–everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.'" (Surah 5.17) With these views toward the Jews and Christians, the advice that the Koran gives to the Believers, meaning the Muslims, is that they must avoid the friendship of such people or be

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considered the same as they are, in which case they will lose the favor of Allah. "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (Surah 5.51) This leads to additional exclusiveness amongst Muslims and separateness from all others. This has obvious repercussions in creating a deeper lack of respect and lack of cooperation amongst the various religious cultures and sects in the world. And this is exactly the opposite of what the world needs to attain peace amongst all people. The Punishment for Losing Faith in Islam In most religions the right to religious freedom, or to change one's religious affiliation, is taken for granted. However, in Islam all schools of law (madhhahib) agree that any adult male apostate from Islam should be killed. Most Muslim jurists also claim that leaving Islam is a crime which carries the penalty of death as recommended by God. Therefore, while conversion from other religions to Islam is welcomed and actively encouraged, Muslims who leave Islam for any other religion must be sentenced to death (unless they repent and return to Islam). As we shall see, the Koran supplies references which would make it seem that death is a just sentence for one who leaves Islam. However, the hadiths (the traditional sayings and deeds of Muhammad) are much more pronounced in the punishment that must be given to any apostates from Islam. For now we will simply look at how the Koran emphasizes God's severe punishment of any apostate in the next life. One example is in Surah 2:217: ". . . and if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein." Going through the Koran numerically, we next come to Surah 3, verses 86-91: "How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (86) Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels and of all mankind. (87) In that will they dwell; Nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their (lot). (88) Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. (89) But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith--Never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. (90) As to those who reject faith and die rejecting--Never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers." (91) Herein it becomes obvious that for one who does not repent and return to Islam, their fate after death cannot be changed even if they offer all the gold of the earth. The Curse of Allah and Punishment for those who Give Up the Faith (Apostates) The Koran repeats: "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs--they shall be companions of hell-fire." (5:86) "Those who reject faith and deny Our signs will be companions of Hell-fire." (5:10) "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." (2:39) Not only are they destined for suffering, but Allah is not as merciful as He is proclaimed to be. In this next verse it is declared that even if one gives up Islam and then repents, they will be shown no mercy. "For those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith--never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." (3:90) "Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject Faith, and go on increasing in unbelief--Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." (4:137) "Anyone who after accepting Faith in Allah, utters Unbelief--Except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith--but such as open their breast to Unbelief--on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty." (16:106) "But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance--they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (forever)." (7:36) "Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves." (2.27)

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"Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin." (9:66) "They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them." (9:74) "Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them, the Evil One has instigated them and busied them up with false hopes. (47:25) Treatment of Apostates According to the Koran However, for those Muslims who may find such apostates who have left Islam, how they should be treated is made quite clear. Herein it is said that they should even be taken and killed, as explained in Surah 4: 88-89: "Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject the Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Even war may be waged against the leaders of those who have left Islam, which is indicated in Surah 9:11-12: "But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, --they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith, --fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained." Thus, there are those who accept this as definite proof that the Koran calls for the death penalty on apostates. Even if one merely cannot accept Islam to the full because of the basic human weakness to be attracted to the world, then they are referred to as being destined to perish after death. This is explained in Surah 16:106-107, 109: "Anyone who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief except under Compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith but such as open their Breast to unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a Dreadful Penalty. (106) This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject faith. (107) Without doubt, in the hereafter they will perish." (109) Finally, we find that if anyone simply turns away from Allah, He will give them the fierce punishment, as found in Surah 88:23-4: "But if any turns away and rejects Allah. Allah will punish him with a mighty Punishment." If we search the hadiths, there seems to be even more references to the way those who leave Islam should be punished by death, even if they are women. The point these verses make is that apostates are meant to face a terrible punishment and there is no clear implication that the fate of apostates is other than eternal damnation. Once they reject or do not accept the faith, their fate is permanent. As previously mentioned, the connotation is that Islam must be accepted or you die, or are eternally damned. This seems to be the ultimate process of controlling people through the use of fear, rather than drawing people to God by the promise of an all-attractive loving relationship with the Supreme Being, which merely needs to be reawakened. Now which of these would you prefer? There is no Freedom of Religion Ultimately, in the eyes of the Koran and under the dictates of Allah, there is no freedom to pick your own spiritual path. This is clarified in this next example, which says: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)." (3:85) The Koranic Views on Women In the following verse we find that men are given priority in the process of spiritual development. The following verses indicate that the inspiration to understand the message of Allah is

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given to men more than women. "Nor did We send before thee (as messengers) any but men, whom We did inspire--(men) living in human habitations." (12:109) Also, "And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom we granted inspiration: if ye realize this not, ask of those who possess the Message."(16:43) Inheritance is also favored toward men. "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females." (4:11-12) Allah's specific directions about marriage are also provided, in which men are highly favored: "Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (4:3) There are also restrictions in what kind of women can be married. "Prohibited to you (for marriage) are--your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, mother's sisters, brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (who gave you suck), foster-sisters; Your wive's mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in--No prohibition if ye have not gone in--(those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is oft-giving, Most Merciful--Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess [meaning those who have been taken captive]; Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibition) against you: except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property--desiring chastity, not lust. Seeing that you derive benefit from them, give them Their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if , after a dower is prescribed, ye agree mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." (4:23-24) Thus, we find prohibitions to marrying one's mother, sister, or daughter, etc. This means that there must have been such things taking place to the extent that there was a need to establish rules against it. The Basis of Muslim Brotherhood In the Koran there are several ayats (verses) that dictate the basis of Muslim brotherhood and how they should view one another. For example: "Verily, this Brotherhood of yours is a single brotherhood, and I am your Lord and cherisher. Therefore, serve Me (and no other)." (Surah 21:92) "To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as a race) towards all that is good. Whosoever ye are, Allah will bring you together. For Allah hath power over all things." (Surah 2:148) "Those who believe, and adopt exile and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid--these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous." (Surah 8:74) In this way, the Koran establishes the basis of a Muslim Brotherhood in which they serve and support each other and their activities that are considered to be for the cause of Allah, or for Islam in general. Thus, they are motivated to work to help one another, which is natural in any faith. However, this is most favorably viewed while under the dictates of the Koranic law, which takes priority over the civil or state law of the local country. This is the foundation of what is called the "Islamic Nation", which Muslims call the general Islamic community that consists of Muslims throughout the world. Furthermore, few outsiders are allowed to be part of this brotherhood. It tends to divide Muslims from all others who are non-Muslims, who are considered non-believers in view of the Koranic verses quoted above. The Koran describes how the fellowship and brotherhood of mankind should exist only within the Muslim community, the Islam Nation, and not with any outsiders, including Jews and Christians. This sort of vision will certainly keep the divisive nature existing between religious and cultural communities. How can there be peace in the world if any religion advocates such an attitude of one people toward another? Yet the following verses clearly indicate that Muslims should make no friends with non-Muslims. "O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom." (3:118) "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." (5:51)

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"Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than Believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." (3:28) "O ye who believe! Take not for protection your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: If any of you do so, they do wrong." (9:23) "Remember who the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans, but the best of planners is Allah." (8:30) "But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a fire, to abide therein: and they shall have a humiliating punishment." (4:14) A few additional verses that help clarify this include the following: "The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; And fear Allah, that ye may receive mercy." (Surah 49.10) "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other." (Surah 48.29) The problem with this sort of brotherhood has been noted by numerous people. In a lecture in California in January of 1900, Vivekananda said: "Mohammedans talk of universal brotherhood, but what comes out of that in reality? Why, anybody who is not a Mohammedan will not be admitted into the brotherhood; he will more likely have his throat cut." Another example is from Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, who formed the Indian Constitution. He could see the dangers of what is the Islamic brotherhood. In his book, "Thoughts on Pakistan", published in 1940, he explains: "Hinduism is said to divide people and in contrast Islam is said to bind people together. But this is only a half truth. For Islam divides as inexorably as it binds. Islam is a close corporation and the distinction that it makes between Muslims and non-Muslims is a very real, very positive and very alienating distinction. The brotherhood of Islam is not the universal brotherhood of man. It is the brotherhood of Muslims for Muslims only. There is a fraternity but its benefit is confined to those within that corporation. For those who are outside the corporation there is nothing but contempt and enmity." In 1941, Ambedkar spoke further about the effects of the Islamic brotherhood, at least in India. However, it reflects an attitude in Muslims that is found in numerous other areas as well. "It is this which leads every Mussalman in India to say that he is a Muslim first and Indian afterwards. It is this sentiment which explains why the Indian Muslim has taken so small a part in the advancement of India but has spent himself to exhaustion by taking up the cause of Muslim countries and why Muslim countries occupy the first place and India occupies the second place in his thoughts." However, now there is also an increasing number of wars amongst the Islamic denominations. In a recent edition of the Washington Post (June 25, 2003, Page A23) there was an article titled "Radical Muslims Killing Muslims" by Zahir Janmohamed. In that he mentioned: "There is a tendency to view the Muslim population as a monolith, with a uniform agenda and little dissent. This outlook on Islam has prompted a slew of articles with titles like "Why Do They Hate Us." But in Pakistan, many Islamic radicals hold equal (and sometimes more) animosity toward dissenting Muslims (particularly Shiites) than toward westerners. The Sipah-i-Sahaba have even killed many of their own Sunni clerics, because the clerics rejected their divisive agenda. Often, implementing a skewed understanding of Islamic sharia (religious law) -- and not hatred of the West -- is their prime motivation." This is my case in point: That as long as anyone utilizes "a skewed understanding of Islamic religious law" regarding any of the numerous above-mentioned Koranic verses, they have all the ammunition they need to justify their own radical ideas and methods of engaging in "the Cause of Allah". In conclusion, if any of the above information and Koranic references are taught to young Muslims in such places as the thousands of madarsas (Islamic schools) in India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other places; and say that the 880 million fellow citizens of India, or others elsewhere in the world, are but kafirs and infidels who deserve or are ultimately going to be thrown into the hellfire; and that their primary allegiance is not to the country of their residence but to the State of Islam; and that the Koran justifies them to engage in Jihad against all non-Muslims; then their spiritual well-being, along with the peace of the world and the safety of anyone else, and the existence of any religion outside Islam, is in jeopardy. This is what must be recognized.

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For this reason it may behoove Muslims to remove the teachings in the Koran that are often interpreted as hateful by Westerners and toward Westerners, or are used by Muslims as the basis of hatred and resentment towards all those who are not Muslims. Certainly it would provide for a more peaceful world. There must come a time when it is understood that we are all children of the same God. There may be differences in the way we recognize and worship God, but this should be a natural difference in the varying sentiments of respect and veneration and love for God. It should not be misconstrued that only one way is indeed the only way. This will keep the world bound in religious dictatorial views and ambitions, as well as quarrels and wars, without end. This is not the way God wanted it. (Verses were taken from "The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary" by 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali, published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, USA, in cooperation with the International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT).----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. Disagree about need for Muslims to speak / disagree about need for religion

58.i guess i could not convey my point properly to you.anyway, thanks for responding.

----- Original Message ----- From: "GMANJU SAINATH"

There is no need for all the Muslims to speak up as all Muslims are not terrorists, like all Hinduvadi leaders are not Hindutva terrorists. The Mumbai incident was masterminded by the Pakistani army for their own interest and it has nothing to do even with Islamic terrorism.noted.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------59.I don't agree though with the "There is ONLY ONE obilgation of citizenship". There are countless ones. Life is not so simple.

----- Original Message -----There is no need for anybody including ordinary Muslims to speak up against terrorism. There is only one obilgation of citizenship and that is if anybody comes to know any illigal activity he has to report it to the nearest police station. However, this is not possible as ordinary citizen does not have a great opinion about the police. This responsibility completely rests with the social/political workers of the area. The police also should develop cordial relations with people in all areas and should meet people often. Of course, police strength has to go up and so also their salary. The recent demonstration of solidarity with the victims of terrorism by Muslims is a very good sign as also the fatwa against killing inocents in the name of Islam. I wish it had come earlier. Muslims, like so many others, may have some complaints against the system. However, the system itself allows you to change it. This is what Obama did. Nobody thought that he would get past Clinton. He had a great vision and he called it -The Audacity of Hope. With that he captured the imagination of the people, especially the young. He transcended the colour code as well as code of creed. In an interview he said he cannot accept that those who do not believe in Christ would be consigned to hell. He is a good Christian but his humanistic vision embraces all. We are human beings, first and last. This is what Mahatma Gandhi told us long ago. With good wishes,M.D.Kini 

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------60.From: karmayog

I wonder how you got the impression that I said that. Probably because people tend to read what they want to read. Please do re-read my mail carefully and also the 4 mails that I have sent earlier asking everyone to comment. Reg. your point about hindus, that is what i have said in my last para. anyway, thanks for responding. vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Mira & John Pinto

I wonder why you feel that muslims alone should speak out against the recent attacks in Mumbai. I have not seen the hindus speak out against the pogrom conducted against the muslims in Gujarat or the hindutva attacks against muslims in north Maharastra or the attacks against christians in Orissa and Karnataka.It is clear to me that nearly all the 150 million muslims in India are good citizens and not terrorists . Even this years Id celebration has been muted as a mark of respect to those who lost their lives. There have been many occasions when muslims and their leaders have spoken out against jihad and t errrorism . this I have not experienced from the hindu community especially the RSS and their militant wings. In point of fact the start of political communalisation has been with Advanis rath yatra back in 1992 and the damage done in communalising society since thence will take decades to repair.

Mira & John Pinto,Bangalore ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------61.HiI would like to know what Karmayog and other Hindus felt and SPOKE UP when1.Babri Masjid was demolished2.Christians were raped and murdered in Orissa3.Persons belonging to Indian army planted bombs in Malegaon4.Innocent Moslems were massacred in Gujrat

by birth I am an Hindu and I object any kind of terrorism.terrorism is a DUBIOUS RELIGION itself. and like all other religionsit spreads hatred,violence, mahem and massacre.all religions are as marx said OPIUMs.Secularism means not all religions but NO religion.i dream of an India with no religions...till then let innocentHINDUS,Moslems,Christians live in PEACERavi----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------62.yes, of course, we have all types of people in our 23000 member yahoo group. ----- Original Message -----

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From: SHALLABH khera

I'll surely listen to what people have to say when they can't question the very basis of the hate for idolators and non believers manifested in the Quran.

I hope all muslims would also listen to these coming comments as well and not only the non-muslims.

Regards,Shallabh

From: karmayog.org karmayog that's fine.do read what others have to say.we will be uploading that next week. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

I cannot be more to the point Vinay.Thanks.

I have nothing to add.

Regards----- Original Message -----From: karmayog.org karmayog I can not read what you have written so pl be logical. I have not read the koran. I never said that I have read it. The problem with emails on such subjects is that people interpret words and sentences the way they want to. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

Solution is to strengthen the hindus that they read the Geeta and the Quran.

Question it and learn from past what Quran has done to Hindustan.

Regarding my ego, I have a ego for saying what I feel is right.If you have anything against my points please do so..

And I am not here to tell you anything, if you don't want to read it than don't.I respect your comments and that is why I opted out of discussion because I saw that what I will say you are not ready to accept.It is good that you know the Quran but in the first email You said you have not read it? I can't understand your current email with that context.

Regards,Shallabh

----- Original Message -----

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Keep your ego down -- be assured that I have enough negative info pertaining to the quran. -- so i don't need more from you. Now, if you have something concrete to suggest as a solution, do so.Else listen to what wise people have said which we will circulate soon. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

It seems you are stuck on the Apple but not why the Apple falls.I mean you are stuck on the Muslims but what not what influences the minds and actions of Muslims i.e. Quran.

Anyway, I think I may not add anything to your discussion as I tend to point the very basis of sources and you seem to be looking over the point.

Best of Luck.Regards,Shallabh

----- Original Message ----- From: karmayog.org yes, there may be no need to discuss gravity at all. because the question may not be why the apple falls. one may have to simply keep it mind while thinking of solutions of other problems e.g. where to make the apply fall // how to prevent it from falling. ----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

Than when you ask why Apple falls down when it is dropped?And we know its Gravity and then someone says I don't want to discuss Gravity

What would you discuss the reason for?

Take it not as a I want to make fun of but brother do the Muslims also follow the same as you do? i.e. not read the quran in madrasas or anywhere?

Just think. I'm awaiting your reply.

Regards,Shallabh

----- Original Message -----From: karmayog.org reg. your first sentence, i am very clear that i do not want to discuss the koran. those who want to may do so.

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----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

I'm sorry Vinay, but by saying that it cannot propogate violence you are closing the discussion on that topic.Solution is to tell the Hindus what Koran holds. What violence it breeds against them and it is ordained by none other than their supreme i.e. Allah!!

What do you think these AlQaeeda, Lashkar are formed from?It is the text books and the Mullahs and I have read the Quran from 2 sources. If both are wrong, I'm wrong

Many people say Islam means peace, it is only peace to those who submit to Allah...

I want Hindus to unite, do away with the castes, this is the time to unite to save Hindustan.We all know the threat but like the media we are too scared to speak against it.

See the state of old temples, their idols broken. We have been whitewashed by the Macualyian era of saying that Mughals were very nice. and Islam was great.We should read the history from the Hindus view point who are the inhabiutants of Hindustan.

Regards,Shallabh

----- Original Message -----From: karmayog I have not read it.Keeping aside for the moment whether or not quran propagates such behaviour, do you have suggestions for a solution?I did not and do not want the topic to digress into a discussion about the koran. Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: SHALLABH khera

How are you so clear that quran does not propagate violence against non muslims?Have you read it?

Thanks,Shallabh----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------63.dear vinay ,

today i read on tv that the pak govt is asking india to allow them acess to the lone live terrorist, i wonder where the y were when we asked them for the last so many years to hand over dawood , let leaders and all others who r using and prospering in pakistan for past 10 years and more, they r asking us to give them evidence , did bush wait for evidence when he went and bombed so called al quaida camps in pakistan, wh er e was the whole world and usa for so long !is diplomaccy paying ,? yes do what is required and say what they want us to say . i am not in favour of war but killing innocent people whatever caste and creed is abominal , what leniency is shown in all islamic countries to robbers , a sentence so severe that he will never rob again , s o get on withit , india

dr parvin desai

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------64.

I appreciate your clarification and guidance.It helps in opening my mind furtherI am more concerned about the distrust harboured against Muslims (and vice-versa)and I can see you are too.BTW, my email did not ask Indian Muslims to have to show their innocence. Please re-read it again. There are no hidden meanings in my email. All the best.Vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Altaf Mohammed

Dear Mr Somani, Before initiating reforms in other communities, you must really try hard to process your own personal biases. By sending that mail out you have shown the distrust you harbour about Muslims to some degree. Can't you see for yourself that Muslims on the street don't support terror? Cases in point: How come you haven't read about refusal of the Muslims to bury the dead terrorists in their cemeteriesHow come you haven't read the announcement by the ulema and deoband madrasa that resorting to violence is un-islamic?How come you didn't see Muslims from the streets burning effigies of the ISI and Pakistan on the streets of Mumbai?Why should Indian Muslims have to scream from roof tops about their innocence if it was a group of young Pakistani men who targetted Mumbai? I am only engaging with you because you seem to have a very selective view of what's happening. And people like you who supposedly have a lot of influence tend to make too many assumptions. Keeping an open mind really helps.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------65.From: Qasim Jafri

I could not locate my comments in the blog. It was also difficult to enter the comments directly to the blog. The idea is to spend the message of harmony and sanity. Deeply appreciate your efforts. That is why I had to send my comments to you directly. Regards

From: Qasim Jafri

As Pakistanis we are also outraged at what happened in Mumbai. Not too long ago we also had an attack on a five star hotel in Pakistan's capital city. While the hotel is substantially damaged, majority of deaths in Islamabad were that of Pakistani Muslims. Terrorism does not have any religion as no religion in the world condones killings even of animals much less of innocent human beings. However, the condemnations of the Islamabad bombings were far less if any from India. On the other hand, in the aftermath of Mumbai mayhem rallies were taken out in Lahore and Karachi to sympathize with the victims and to condemn the perpetrators. We all need to rise above religions and

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nationalities and put pride and prejudice aside to condemn violence against humanity in any form or manifestation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------66.From: Jabir Mansuri

Respected Gentlemen: My perceptions are clear. I am not confused between Al-Qaida and / or Mosad, CIA, RSS aims and objectives. In my humble understanding they are large scale icons of sleeper cells. If we could hack their PCs and mind at their HQs on psycho-warefare we ALL OTHERS i.e. MICRO could bring MAJOR to our fold, only we are honest for co-existence funda. Slightest tilting towards clash might redefine. Perverted and gobles have taken space over goods of all Hindus, Jews, Christians and Muslims, atheists represent large sections from among these folds. Psycho warefare, soverignity of every country is always biased and against humanity. International charters could be digged if they are human or wait if they are in pipe line. Only micro has double responsibility without double speak. Its a lage raho perception.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------67.From: Hari Kak

 Best is to leave it to our Prime Minister who,guided by Soniaji , has successfully steered us,through the terrorist land mines for four years and will do so for the next six.( unless Rajivji takes over earlier.)The best course is to become so friendly with Pakistan that none of us thinks of harming the other.Islam as we know means Peace,

Hari Kak.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------68.From: "Shankar Gopalakrishnan" <[email protected]>

I was not meaning to criticise you - only to suggest that perhaps thiscould be added. Especially as you state in your email that, if Muslimsdon't speak up, it "increases the perception gap and emotional distancebetween them and other communities" and "It does not strengthen theGovernment's resolve to take suitable action against terrorist networks,both internally and internationally." This is far more true of Hindutvaterrorism than it is of Islamist terrorism. Have we ever consideredwhat it must feel like for the victims of Kandhamal, Gujarat, Malegaonetc. to see so much attention and so much state action and so manyemails devoted to condemning the Mumbai attacks (and asking Muslims todo so), while there is no response, no declarations of war, not evennormal arrests, in the face of the terrorism that they suffered? Wouldone in that situation not feel that their life and the lives of their

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loved ones is being valued very cheaply? That, to my mind, is far morelikely to increase the "perception gap and emotional distance" thanMuslims condemning or not condemning the Mumbai attacks (which in anycase they have already done in ample measure).

This is all that I was suggesting. I had only thought that this mighthelp the cause you (and I) am advocating, especially in light of thereach of your email network. After all, at a time when the media isfull of Mumbai, people like us might be able to intervene moreeffectively by highlighting the broader context and the other issuesthat are being forgotten.

"karmayog" karmayog said:

i said it very properly, and explicitly, and not vaguely.you may choose to misinterpret it or find it inadequate.that's your choice or intent to change the subject from what my email wasabout to what you would like it to be.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Shankar Gopalakrishnan

Yes, it is vaguely referred to in the last para, but it is one thing tosay something in general and another to point out specific instances ofterrorism in the name of Hinduism and Hindutva. In the current climateit would seem very vital to state that Orissa / Gujarat / 1984 etc. arealso instances of terrorism and not just something that can be ignoredand forgotten (as is being done now).

karmayog said:

I already said that in my last para.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Shankar Gopalakrishnan" <[email protected]>

Thanks for your reply. Would you circulate something to that effect,however? It would have a good effect in reminding people that Mumbai ishardly the first time that mass killings have taken place in India, andwe must demand justice not only for Mumbai but also for Gujarat andOrissa.

karmayog > > saidI believe we should condemn.Vinay

----- Original Message ----- From: Shankar Gopalakrishnan

Dear Mr. Vinay

If your effort is genuine, as it certainly seems to be, I would stronglyurge you to also ask why Hindus are not condemning the massacre inGujarat in 2002 and the recent slaughter of Christians in Orissa. These were also organised terrorist attacks that were as large (and in many

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ways, such as the number of people driven from their homes, much larger) than Mumbai. Why are ordinary Hindus not being asked to speak outagainst the RSS and Sangh Parivar for this violence? Continually demandingthat Muslims alone speak out against terrorism is to perpetuate themythical stereotype that only Muslims engage in violence and terrorism, which the recent history of India shows is far from true.

Sincerely,Shankar Gopalakrishnan----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------69.From: Vikas Sankrityayan

Vinay,

The only way forward is for muslim friends to stop following Quran word by word. I have read it completely and found many good stuff in it. However I could not digest many things in it and I know those lines are the root of the rot.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------70.we have sent enough emails inviting everyone to speak up.i have not heard from ordinary muslims and would like to hear their views.why on earth would you have an objection to that?vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr.V.N. Sharma

After Malegaon Bomb blast and still earlier Samjhauta express blast case and the results of the investigation and the doubtful cause of end of the great dedicated Officer Kerkere all the people belonging to different religions are under scanner and all of them including Hindus have to speak up. Why ordinary or spl. category Muslims alone?----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------71.From: captainjohann

Dear Vinay,You imply Muslims from outside have come to take revenge.How ignorant you are.Out of 179 killed in Mumbai 26/11, there are 44 Muslims almost 25% which is way ahead of 13% of their population in India.Will you ask Hindus to do that incase Avtar of Vishnu Nepal king attacks India with his troops?Willl you ask Tamils to do that if LTTE attacks India? orwill you ask Bengalies to do that if Bangladesh attacks India?

From: karmayog.org

Yes, if Christians from outside India are coming to take revenge, you must convey this point to them. That is my opinion. ----- Original Message ----- From: captainjohann

Hi vinay,

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I am an Indian who practises christianity. Do I have to say i am proud to be an Indian whenever a temple is blown up by a misguided christian who lives in India who may be a covert operative from pakistan,CIA,KGB,Chinese mole etc? The ordinary Muslim have spoken up by refusing burial to the terrorists in his graveyard.If Indian ruling political elite has got guts why not burn the bodies in full public view with PIG FAT AND DEAD RATS considered impure by Islam?

"Greatness lies not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall"Captain Johann samuhanand, BANGALORE INDIA91 80 42023252 www.captainjohann.blogspot.com karmayog wrote:

They don't have to 'prove' that they are an Indian.But they should tell the rest of the world that they are 'proud' to bean India.Vinay

----- Original Message ----- From: "captain Johann samuhanand" [email protected]

!I am an Indian and the very fact ordinary Muslims are asked to provehe is an Indian everytime a terrorist strike takes place in India isthe problem and also demeaning to his very psyche.1.It is a problem when an eminent film actress SIMI who moves withMuslim FILMDOM glitteri in india and abroad including benazir Bhuttoconfuses pakistani flag with islamic flag.Then how about ordinaryindians of other faith misconceptions about Muslims?2.Political leaders like Delhi's Imam Bhukhari,MIM leaderowaisi,Muslim Indian Syed shahabuddin, etc who dominate them insteadof the GREATEST INDIAN OF OUR TIME PROF APJ ABDUL KALAM,Richest Indian Azim Premji,Tennis no one Sania Mirza ,crikets Zahir,Irfan etc is the real problem for them.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------72.From: usha iyer

1. many muslims came out and joined the taj protests. 1 wonders if they felt they HAD to because of articles like this, and people who're watching them like hawks to see if they're "patriotic".

2. how many hindus came out to decry sadhvi pragya and her cohort after teh malegaon blasts? or after teh babri masjid demolition? or after teh rape and murder of nuns in gujarat? or teh riots in gujarat that killed 2000 muslims? show us passages from the bhagwad geeta/ the vedas that support this!

3. does the "ordinary pakistani" get to see what the "ordinary indian" has to say? what we see is mediated by the media.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------73.From: Prabhjot Sugga

Vinay- As a sikh, I have nothing against muslims except their ideology of conversion through incentives.Thanks----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------74.That's too deep for me.You seem to have thought about it.

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So please share your views. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chanchala Kumari

Dear Vinay what is your idea of Indian-ness, religion culture and community. You are euther in some community or you are trying to form a new community by saying that you don't belong to any community. Try to fathom Indian-ness, religion, culture and community, then say i am not interested in this or that.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------75."Why do we need religion at all?" is a completely different topic and perspective. Reg. people like you as you seem to ask, whatever emails you would send as people have done in www.karmayog.org/mumbaiterrorattack would be posted there under a separate subject line. reg. pakistanis, i am curious about their opinions. regardsvinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Ravindranath C

Dear Vinay, I do not understand why you want only Muslims (and Pakistanis) to speak out on terrorism. What about people belonging to other religions or those like me, who have eschewed all religious beliefs and practices? Though your intentions are beyond doubt salutary, I wonder what effect this is actually going to have on people. I agree that there are good and not so good persons in any religion. I also accept that people like me, who do not profess to belong to any religion are not necessarily saints. Still, by calling for views from only one particular community, are you not highlighting the fact that they are different? This is the crux of the matter. As long as there are religions, there are bound to be beliefs - and each person feels his religion is superior to the others. Why do we need religion at all? Can we not accept one another as human beings first and human beings last? Is a Hindu human being any different from a Muslim human being or a Jew human being? Let religion be something in a person's private domain. Public display will only serve to widen the divide between people. Is it not a fact that religion has been the cause of more bloodshed and violence than anything else in history? Why then do we need religion at all? If all the religions say the same thing, why should different religions exist? Why then, should we frown upon conversions? We call ourselves rational. Yet, we are reluctant to accept inter-religious marriages. We call ourselves secular and yet have different laws for different religions. Where is the rationale, what is the logic? It is high time we stopped viewing people as Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc. and start looking at them as human beings. You may call for opinions and there will be a lot of views being aired but in the end, they will be nothing but opinions that do not hold any value, for a Muslim will remain a Muslim, a Christian will remain a Christian and a Hindu will remain a Hindu, without realising that all of us are human beings. When are we going to come out of orthodoxy, tradition and the narrow confines of our religious beliefs? C. RavindranathPune----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------76.if you try in usa with even a small group of people, it is likely that they will all fail (even americans in christianity)

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so then what? ----- Original Message ----- From: Krishna Gopal

We should not create a situation where people become defensive, and unwanted increase of insecurity. Instead of that there should be an examination which tests knowledge of Koran, Gita and Ramayana, and Gurun Bani so that people can understand whether they are fake muslim or fake hindu or fake sikh. If there are fakes, then religion should be not blamed for it.This idea will be helpful to all, and karmayoga.com can do it certainly. Id MubarakK G Misra (from LA)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------77.ok, i did and here are my observations -- numbered as per numbering that i have put in your original email. 1. that's what i said in my last para2. that's what i said in my last para3. certification etc. are your own words. not mine. I am simply saying that Muslims outside India should be told firmly by Muslims inside India. In cases where this would be required to be done by Hindus, they should also do so.4. I am not a mind-reader of others. In any case, I believe Hindus should have spoken up.5. Yes. that's correct. Why did you feel that I am saying something to the contrary?6. Yes, absolutely. That's my whole point.7. That's a strange observation. What makes you feel that Hindus, Christians, Parsis, etc. are not coming out in large numbers to condemn terror? Or that I am implying so?8. Of course. Did I say something to the contrary?9. Absolutely. But it's not coming. So something is lacking or holding this back.10. Yes, of course. This is very clear from the various religions of the people heading the country. So I can't find a single thing in what you wrote that was against what I said. Hence I said that you seem to be in agreement with my views. (Basically, I wanted to acknowledge your email.)Maybe you desired it to be worded the other way i.e. that I agree with your views. Choose the wording you want. It's wierd to me that you brought in two people into this conversation without even telling me who they are and why.But I guess, each person has his / her way of thinking. All the best to you to tackle the issues pertaining to the terror attack and communal harmony your way. I made my own sincere attempt to do so. So it didn't work with you. Life's like that. But since it seems to have bothered you, I apologise. vinay ----- Original Message ----- From: Sheba George

I d advice you to do that if you have not read it carefully as yet.

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----- Original Message ----- From: karmayog.org

oh, then i misunderstood.will re-read carefully again.rgds ----- Original Message ----- From: Sheba George

Kindly note that I completely disagree with your views. Sheba George

----- Original Message ----- From: karmayog

thanks.noted your agreement with our views. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sheba George

IDD MUBARAK ! 1. And i remember so many missed oppurtunities when most hindus did nt experience the social and moral responsibility to speak up or act to change for their muslim and christian and Dalit brothers and sisters.... 2. The preoccupation of what Muslims should be doing or not doing is really interesting considering the moment the country is going through and ironically it holds true for what Hindus should have been doing since the 1991 Rathyatra at least. 3. It is strange that when muslims were massacred in the name of being responsible for the burning of 2 train bogey's and killing of 58 hindu's in Gujarat in 2002 muslims did nt need ordinary Hindus to speak up , because they believed that every Hindu did nt need to certify their Indianness and loyalty to the country they belonged too; they were clear about who were behind this and they exercised restraint to ensure there was no general ire against all Hindus knowing well that all Hindus would nt support such targeted violence. 4. The Staines murder and what is happening in Kandhamal and Mangalore against Christians also show's that while christians have expressed their anguish and anger, the expetation is Justice the thought did nt cross their minds that all Hindus should speak up. 5. No ordinary muslim or christian even if deeply religious or otherwise is fomenting divide more or less then the ordinary Hindu , whatever is stated below in that case will hold for the country when muslims and christians are hounded in their own country from Hindus because that also is an attack on the integrity security and dignity of the Nation. 6. The Problem of silent masses who want to go about their daily lives peacefully is true for hindus muslims et all.

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7. Its worrying though that muslims are coming out in large numbers to condemn terror as muslims rahter then us all doing it together to send appropriate signals to our neighbours and the world its show the rift within. 8. Its times we left behind caste communal and gender biases subtle or pronounced even now if we can see the writing on the wall. Each and every community has contributed to Nation building even the dispossessed. 9. The Leadership can come from any man or woman who has the vision to realize a just and equal social order free of bias. 11. In India we look to good Leader's who can realize this vision and give scope to our aspiration for Growth Development and Justice to all. Sheba George----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. Other Issues that may be relevant (conversion, jihad, Partition of India, Kashmir, etc)

78.letter written by 14 eminent Muslims to United nations in 1951 when Frank Graham was iits secreatry general. It is a remarkable fact that, while the Security Council and its various agencies have devoted so much time to the study of the Kashmir dispute and made various suggestions for its resolution, none of them has tried to ascertain the views of the Indian Muslims nor the possible effect of any hasty step in Kashmir, however well-intentioned, on the interests and well- being of the Indian Muslims. We are convinced that no lasting solution for the problem can be found unless the position of Muslims in Indian society is clearly understood.

Supporters of the idea of Pakistan, before this subcontinent was partitioned, discouraged any attempt to define Pakistan clearly and did little to anticipate the conflicting problems which were bound to arise as a result of the advocacy of the two-nation theory. The concept of Pakistan, therefore, became an emotional slogan with little rationale content. It never occurred to the Muslim League or its leaders that if a minority was not prepared to live with a majority on the sub- continent, how could the majority be expected to tolerate the minority.

It is, therefore, small wonder that the result of partition has been disastrous to Muslims. In undivided India, their strength lay about 100 million. Partition split up the Muslim people, confining them to the three isolated regions. Thus, Muslims number 25 million in Western Pakistan, 35 million to 40 million in India, and the rest in Eastern Pakistan. A single undivided community has been broken into three fragments, each faced with its own problems.

Pakistan was not created on a religious basis. If it had been, our fate as well as the fate of other minorities would have been settled at that time. Nor would the division of the sub- continent for reasons of religion have left large minorities in India or Pakistan.

This merely illustrates what we have said above, that the concept of Pakistan was vague, obscure, and never clearly defined, nor its likely consequences foreseen by the Muslim League, even when some of these should have been obvious.

When the partition took place, Muslims in India were left in the lurch by the Muslim League and its leaders. Most of them departed to Pakistan and a few who stayed behind stayed long enough to wind

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up their affairs and dispose of their property. Those who went over to Pakistan left a large number of relations and friends behind.

Having brought about a division of the country, Pakistan leaders proclaimed that they would convert Pakistan into a land where people would live a life according to the tenets of Islam. This created nervousness and alarm among the minorities living in Pakistan. Not satisfied with this, Pakistan went further and announced again and again their determination to protect and safeguard the interests of Muslims in India. This naturally aroused suspicion amongst the Hindus against us and our loyalty to India was questioned.

Pakistan had made our position weaker by driving out Hindus from Western Pakistan in utter disregard of the consequences of such a policy to us and our welfare. A similar process is in question in Eastern Pakistan from which Hindus are coming over to India in a large and large number.

If the Hindus are not welcome in Pakistan, how can we, in all fairness, expect Muslims to be welcomed in India ? Such a policy must inevitably, as the past has already shown, result in the uprooting of Muslims in this country and their migration to Pakistan where, as it became clear last year, they are no longer welcome, lest their influx should destroy Pakistan's economy.

Neither some of the Muslims who did migrate to Pakistan after partition, and following the widespread bloodshed and conflict on both sides of the Indo-Pakistan border in the north- west, have been able to find a happy asylum in what they had been told would be their homeland. Consequently some of them have had to return to India, e.g Meos who are now being rehabilitated in their former areas.

If we are living honorably in India today, it is certainly not due to Pakistan which, if anything, has by her policy and action weakened our pooition.

The credit goes to the broadminded leadership of India, to Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, to the traditions of tolerance in this country and to the Constitution which ensures equal rights to all citizens of India, irrespective of their religion caste, creed, colour or sex.

We, therefore, feel that, tragically as Muslims were misled by the Muslim League and subsquently by Pakistan and the unnecessary suffering which we and our Hindu brethren have to go through in Pakistan and in India since partition, we must be given an opportunity to settle down to a life of tolerance and understanding to the mutual benefit of Hindus and Muslims in our country - if only Pakistan would let us do it. To us it is a matter of no smaller onsequence.

Despite continuous provocations, first from the Muslim League and since then from Pakistan, the Hindu majority in India has not thrown us or members of other minorities out of Civil Services, Armed Forces, the judiciary, trade, commerce, business and industry. There are Muslim Ministers in the Union and State cabinets, Muslim Governors, Muslim Ambassadors, representing India in foreign countries, fully enjoying the confidence of the Indian nation, Muslim members in Parliament and state legislatures, Muslim judges serving on the Supreme Court and High Courts, high-ranking officers in the Armed Foroes and the Civil services, including the police. Muslims have large landed estates, run big business and commercial houses in various parts of the country, notably in Bombay and Calcutta, have their shares in industrial production and enterprise in export and import trade. Our famous sacred shrines and places of cultural interest are mostly in India.

Not that our lot is certainly happy. We wish some of the state Governments showed a little greater sympathy to us in the field of education and employment. Nevertheless, we feel we have an honourable place in India. Under the law of the land, our religious and cultural life is protected and we shall share in the opportunities open to all citizens to ensure progress for the people of this country.

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It is, therefore, clear that our interest and welfare do not coincide with Pakistan's conception of the welfare and interests of Muslims in Pakistan.

This is clear from Pakistan's attitude towards Kashmir. Pakistan claims Kashmir, first, on the ground of the majority of the State's people being Muslims and, secondly, on the ground, of the state being essential to its economy and defence. To achieve its objective it has been threatening to launch "Jehad" against Kashmir in India.

It is a strange commentary on political beliefs that the same Muslims of Pakistan who like the Muslims of Kashmir to join them invaded the state, in October 1947, killing and plundering Muslims in the state and dishonouring Muslim women, all in the interest of what they described as the liberation of Muslims of the State. In its oft-proclaimed anxiety to rescue the 3 million Muslims from what it describes as the tyranny of a handful of Hindus in the State, Pakistan evidently is prepared to sacrifice the interests of 40 million Muslims in India - a strange exhibition of concern for the welfare of fellow- Muslims. Our misguided brothers in Pakistan do not realise that if Muslims in Pakistan can wage a war against Hindus in Kashmir why should not Hindus, sooner or later, retaliate against Muslims in India.

Does Pakistan seriously think that it could give us any help if such an emergency arose or that we would deserve any help thanks to its own follies ? It is incapable of providing room and livelihood to the 40 million Muslims of India, should they migrate to Pakistan. Yet its policy and action, if not changed soon, may well produce the result which it dreads.

We are convinced that India will never attack our interests. First of all, it would be contrary to the spirit animating the political movement in this country. Secondly, it would be opposed to the Constitution and to the sincere leadership of the Prime Minister. Thirdly, India by committing such a folly would be playing straight into the hands of Pakistan.

We wish we were equally convinced of the soundness of Pakistan's policy. So completely oblivious is it of our present problems and of our future that it is willing to sell us into slavery - if only it can secure Kashmir.

It ignores the fact that Muslims in Kashmir may also have a point of view of their own, that there is a democratic movement with a democratic leadership in the State, both inspired by the progress of a broad minded, secular, democratic movement in India and both naturally being in sympathy with India. Otherwise, the Muslim raiders should have been welcomed with open arms by the Muslims of the State when the invasion took place in 1947.

Persistent propaganda about "Jehad" is intended, among other things, to inflame religious passions in this country. For it would, of course, be in Pakistan's interests to promote communal rioting in India to show to Kashmiri Muslims how they can find security only in Pakistan. Such a policy, however, can only bring untold misery and suffering to India and Pakistan generally and to Indian Muslims particularly.

Pakistan never tires of asserting that it is determined to protect the interests of Muslims in Kashmir and India. Why does not Pakistan express the same concern for Pathans who are fighting for Pakhtoonistan, an independent homeland of their own ? The freedom-loving Pathans under the leadership of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan and Dr. Khan Sahib, both nurtured in the traditions of democratic tolerance of the Indian National Congress, are being subjected to political repression of the worst possible kind by their Muslim brethren in power in Pakistan and in the NWFP. Contradictory as Pakistan's policy generally is, it is no surprise to us that while it insists on a fair and impartial plebiscite in Kashmir, it denies a fair and impartial plebiscite to Pathans.

Pakistan's policy in general and her attitude towards Kashmir is particular thus tend to create conditions in this cauntry which in the long run can only bring to us Muslims widespread suffering

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and destruction. Its policy prevents us from settling down, from being honourable citizens of a State, free from suspicion of our fellow-countrymen and adapting ourselves to changing conditions to promote the interests and welfare of India. Its sabre-rattling interferes with its own economy and ours. It expects us to be layal to it despite its importance to give us any protection, believing at the same time that we can still claim all the rights of citizenship in a secular democracy.

In the event of a war, it is extremely doubtful whether it will be able to protect the Muslims of East Bengal who are completely cut off from Western Pakistan. Are the Muslims of India and Eastern Pakistan who sacrifice themselves completely to enable the 25 million Muslims in Western Pakistan to embark upon mad, self-destructive and adventures?

We should, therefore, like to impress upon you with all the emphasis at our command that Pakistan's policy towards Kashmir is fraught with the gravest peril to the 40 million Muslims of India. If the Security Council is really interested in peace human brotherhood, and international understanding, it should heed this warning while there is still time.

Dr. Zakir Hussain (Vice Chancellor Aligarh University)

Sir Sultan Ahmed (Former Member of Governor General's Executive Council)

Sir Mohd. Ahmed Syed Khan (Nawab of Chhatari, former acting Governor of United Provinces and Prime Minister of Hyderabad)

Sir Mohd. Usman (Former member of Governor General's Executive council and acting Governor of Madras)

Sir Iqbal Ahmed (Former Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court)

Sir Fazal Rahimtoola (Former Sheriff of Bombay)

Maulana Hafz-ur-Rehman M.P. Col. B.H. Zaidi M.P.

Nawab Zain Yar Jung (Minister Gcvernment of Hyderabad)

A.K. Kawaja (Former President of Muslim Majlis)

T.M. Zarif (General Secretary West Bengal Bohra Community)

contributed by captainjohann----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------79.letter written by Maharaja hari Singh who was maneuvering till last to remain independent along with

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Maharaja of Travancore. His son Karan Singh even today plays the role of his father in Parliament for the interest of UK/USA.

My dear Lord Mountbatten,

I have to inform Your Excellency that a grave emergency has arisen in my State and request the immediate assistance of your Government. As Your Excellency is aware,the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not acceded to either the Dominion of India or Pakistan. Geographically my State is contiguous wit h both of them. Besides, my State has a common boundary with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and with China. In their external relations the Dominion of India and Pakistan cannot ignore this fact. I wanted to take time to decide to which Dominion I should accede or whether it is not in the best interests of both the Dominions and of my State to stand independent, of course with friendly and cordial relations with both. I accordingly approached the Dominions of India and Pakistan to enter into standstill agreement with my State. The Pakistan Government accepted this arrangement. The Dominion of India desired further discussion with representatives of my Government. I could not arrange this in view of the developments indicated below. ln fact the Pakistan Goernment under the standstill agreement is operating the post and telegraph system inside the State. Though we have got a standstill agreement with the Pakistan Government, lhe Govemment permitted a steady and increasing strangulation of supplies like food, salt and petrol to my State.

Afridis, soldiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes wnh modern weapons have been allowed to infiltrate into the State, at first in the Poonch area, then from Sia1kot and finally in a mass in the area adjoining-Hazara district on the Ramkote side. The result has been that the limited number of troops at the disposal of the State had to be dispersed and thus had to face the enemy at several points simultaneously, so that it has become difficult to stop the wanton destruction of life ad property and the looting of the Mahura power house, which supplies electric current to the whole of Srinagar and which has been burnt. The number of women who have been kidnpped and raped makes my heart bleed. The wild forces thus let loose on the State are marching on with the aim of capturing Srinagar, the summer capital of my government, as a first step to overrunning the whole State.The mass infiltration of tribesman drawn from distant areas of the North-West Frontier Province, coming regularly in motortrucks, using the Manwehra-Mazaffarabad road and fully armed with up-to-date weapons, cannot possibly be done without the knowledge of the Provincial Govemment of the North-West Frontier Province and the Government of Pakistan. Inspite of repeated appeals made by my Government no attempt has been made to check these raiders or to stop them from coming into my State. In fact, both radio and the Press of Pakistan have reported these occurences. The Pakistan radio even put out the story that a provisional government has been set up in Kashmir. The people of my State, both Muslims and non-Muslims, generally have taken no part at all.

With the conditbns obtaining at present in my State and the great emergency of the situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from the Indian Dominion. Naturally they cannot send the help asked for by me without my State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so, and I attach the instrument of accession for acceptance by your Government. The other alternative is to leave my state and people to free booters. On this basis no civilised government can exist or be maintained.

This alternative I will never allow to happen so long as I am the ruler of the State and I have life to defend my country. I may also inform your Excellency's Government that it is my intention at once to set up an interim government and to ask Sheikh Abdullah to carry the responsibilities in this emergency with my Prime Minister.

If my State is to be saved, immediate assistance must be available at Srinagar. Mr. V.P. Menon is fully aware of the gravity of the situation and will explain it to you, if further explanation is needed.

In haste and with kindest regards,

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Yours sincerely,

Hari Singh October 26, 1947

Contributed by captainjohann----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------80.Tyranny of International Jihadi Terrorism:

How to eliminate?

Bhamy V. Shenoy

There has been outpouring of sympathy to India from all over the world soon after the recent Mumbai carnage just like what the US received after 9/11. In recent years there have been such senseless killings in Bali, Indonesia in October 2002, Madrid train killings in Spain in March 2004, and London, UK bombings in July 2005. Between 9/11 in the US and 11/26 in India, there have been regular Jihadi killings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, Algeria, China and Russia. But World Trade Center, Madrid, Bali and UK transportation Jihadi terrorism have been getting the world attention without any attempt to identify and solve the fundamental problem behind the carnage.

After the regular cyber Jihadi terrorism talks and acts by Saudi millionaire terrorist Osama Bin Laden, the world started to pay some attention to global Jihadi ideology. While the world has realized the killing of millions by communism (according to Black Book of Communism it is more than 100 millions), the world has still not taken Jihadists seriously. In many respects they are more dangerous than the most deadly weapons of mass destruction. By this time it is well recognized that Bush’s attack against Sadam Hussein instead of solving the basic problem of International Jihadi Terrorism (IJT) has only worsened it.

After Mumbai carnage where one could see on TV the beastly behaviour of Jihadi terrorists killing their hostages for just being non Muslim there is an urgent need for the world community to face the long term consequences of IJT. In his book on “Clash of Civilizations” Huntington was able to foresee the future wars based not on nationalities or ideologies like communism but on religions. But he did not predict nor could he foresee the potent power of Jihadi ideology which can hard wire Muslims into live bombs to kill people all over the world.

Douglas Feith writing for Wall Street Journal on how India will be a key ally in the fight against terror has summarized IJT ideology in the following few words. “The more we learned about Jihadist ideology -- that of al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba and others -- the less likely it appeared that India could free itself of terrorist attacks simply through territorial compromise with Pakistan over Kashmir. Jihadist leaders declare that the aim of their holy war is not to alter specific policies of their enemies, but rather to establish a universal Muslim state. Fighting and killing to implement this apocalyptic vision, they have a long list of grievances and hatreds, including against the rulers of most Muslim countries, who they deem apostates.

But the Jihadists particularly despise democracy. They believe law-making and self-government by human beings is blasphemous, an affront to the sovereignty of God, who is the only proper source of legislation.”

It is that IJT ideology quite possibly supported by Pakistan army and intelligence which led to the killing of Benazir Bhutto according to the Economist. It is the same IJT ideology which was behind Mumbai carnage.

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When the world first heard of Chechnya and the Russian inability to handle it peacefully, the first reaction was to sympathize with Chechnayan separatists and we failed to see the role of Jihadi ideology. Even after heart breaking killings in Moscow and in North Caucasus, the world interpreted the Chechnayan problem more from the point of view of human rights and age old grievances of Chechnya rather than the role of international Jihadists in exasperating the situation. The same is true about the Uighur problems in Xinjiang in China. Irrespective of the problems of Muslims in Xinjiang, why should international Jihadists interfere in the internal affairs of the country?

Sudan and Nigeria which are both suffering from the curse of oil, also are victims of international Jihadi terrorism in less subdued manner compared to Kashmir, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Sudan was the country which had hosted Osama just before his bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

It is useful to compare Turkey and Pakistan, two Muslim countries to study how to stop the harmful impact of international Jihadi terrorism. In the case of Turkey thanks to the visionary leadership of its founder Kemal Ataturk, today there is no possibility for Islamic fundamentalism to rear its ugly head through Jihadi movement. Fundamentalists have tried and they have been stopped by the army who are interested to maintain the letter and spirit of Turkish constitution framed by Ataturk.

It is just the opposite in Pakistan, where the army and intelligence wing which is under army ensure the role of Jihadists. While the former military dictator Zia-Al Huq did not even try to control the army’s Jihadi role, the recent dictator Musharff did not have much luck. Currently the civilian President Zirdari, has no control of his army which has been getting billions of dollars to fight Al Qaeda in Afghanistan from the US. But it is diverted to support IJT against India as has been revealed in the latest US report.

According to the Economist, Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world because of the combination of two weapons of mass destruction – atom bomb and the rule of Jihadi ideology. Today it is Pakistan. Tomorrow it could be other country like Bangladesh where democracy has not been able to set its roots. If the world does not start dealing with the fast spreading virus of international Jihadi terrorism, IJT will be considered by the future generation to be the most deadly WMD than atom bombs.

There is an urgent need for UN to organize a meeting of the world leaders to discuss the increasing problem of IJT on world peace and to develop strategies to overcome them. While UN is planning such a meeting, the world community should call upon the moderate leaders of Islam to isolate their Jihadi elements in more forceful ways. Just like Hindus have been struggling to get rid of untouchablity, caste based discrimination, Sati (practically eliminated), Islam should start a movement to get rid of Jihadism.

While majority are critical of Jihadists, there are still a significant minority of mullahs in various Muslim dominated countries where Jihadists are getting full support. How can one explain the martyr type of respect shown to the killers of Bali Bombing in Indonesia after they were put to death recently?

When the complicity of India’s mafia leader Dawood Ibrahim is well known in various Jihadi killings of Mumbai, how can one explain the indifference of Pakistan government in extraditing him to India or being given lavish hospitality in the Middle Eastern countries? How can one explain millions of funds provided to promote International Jihadi Terrorism movement by the millionaires living in oil rich country like Saudi Arabia?

Now is the time to take strong action because IJT will great more strength and support in the future as the reliance of world starts to increase even more on the Middle East oil. The recent IEA report has predicted $200 per barrel oil by 2030 mostly because the supply of conventional oil will start peaking. By that time more than 85% of oil reserves will be from the Middle East and all of them have Muslim

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Majority. Unless those states take active steps and join the rest of the world community to eliminate these Jihadi elements, it will get only worse.

There is no use of some affected countries like the US, India, Spain etc going and bombing the Jihadi terror camps. Killing few Jihadists physically will not help much. In Hindu mythology there was a demon whose each drop of blood falling to the ground created hundreds of his clones. Similarly as it happened in Iraq, killing of Al Qaeda or LET will give rise to more of them instead of eliminating them as predicted. What is needed is for the followers of moderate form of Islam to condemn Jihadism in no uncertain terms. Until they put the Jini of Jihadism back in the bottle, it will only get worse.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 81.noted but my advice to you is to try some other line of thought. ----- Original Message ----- From: krutik shah

Sir,with folded hand I apoliges if any one is hurt by my view,but this is the truth to leave peacfully if pakistan wants kashmir than they should also take all muslim from India otherwise pakistan will have some other accuse to make terriosim,we are independent over 50 years than also day by day things are becoming worst in entire world peace.Sir the incident of Mumbai terriosiom was worts than Hitler Gas chamber this is not going to forget in each & every Indian mind,please note.We Indians are ready to sacrifice kashmir also if they take all muslim from India ask this question to each & every Indian muslim & muslim pakistan who dream about kashmir in pakistan.Sir accept 10% Muslim in Indian rest of them you know in which business they are all illegal(i.e without taxes Dawood ibrahim/tiger memom)Sir if all muslim goes to pakistan than India will save 4/5 national holidays & will progress by another 4/5% this is very very achivable progress,again for this pakistan will be jealous of our progress,pakistan is not progressing beacause they are not into any constructive activity hence their standard of leaving & income is not increasing hence they are going to premitave age----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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