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Appendix I

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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits


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Exhibit 1

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HOGR DOJ 006707

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HOGR DOJ 006710

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HOGR DOJ 006711

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HOGR DOJ 006712

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HOGR DOJ 006713

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HOGR DOJ 006714

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HOGR DOJ 006715

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HOGR DOJ 006716

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HOGR DOJ 006717

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Exhibit 2

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HOGR ATF - 001451

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HOGR ATF - 001452

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HOGR ATF - 001453

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HOGR ATF - 001454

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Exhibit 3

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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011

ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)

www. Phoenix, AZ

2

INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

GEORGE GILLETT

Examination by Mr. Castor 10Examination by Mr. Sherman 55Examination by Mr. Lindsay 70Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 90Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 92Examination by Mr. Foster 96Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132Examination by Mr. Kerner 140Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 141Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 153Further Examination by Mr. Castor 178Further Examination by Mr. Foster 194Further Examination by Mr. Castor 196Further Examination by Mr. Foster 202Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 209

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this document attached outlined a conference call that

t he D AG 's o ff ic e r eq ue st ed w it h a ll t he a ge nc y h ea ds ,

M r. M ue ll er f ro m t he F BI , M s. L eo na rd f ro m D EA ,

M r. M el so n f ro m A TF , a nd i t s ch ed ul ed a c on fe re nc e c al l

to discuss the specifics.

Q. And was t hat part of the overall P roject

Gunrunner?

A. A TF 's P ro je ct G un ru nn er w as d ir ec tl y af fe ct ed b y

that proposed strategy, yes, sir.

Q. Do y ou k now i f the U .S. A ttorney's O ffice,

District of Arizona, was involved in that communication?

A. Yes, sir. Also requested to be included in that

c on fe re nc e c al l w as M r. B ur ke , B -u -r -k -e , w ho w as t he

U .S . A tt or ne y f or t he D is tr ic t o f A ri zo na .

Q. Was i t y our u nderstanding t hat a t t hat t ime D OJ

w as l oo ki ng to A TF to f ocu s o n c ar te ls a nd m ore o f a n

organized crime level rather than straw purchasers?

A. Yes, sir. The content of that plan specifically

a dd re ss ed w an ti ng A TF n ot t o f oc us o n s tr aw p ur ch as er s,

b ut t o f oc us o n c ar te ls a nd l ar ge r c om pl ex c on sp ir ac y

type investigations.

Q. How d id t hat i nitiative t rickle d own t o t he

a ge nt s i n t he P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e?

A. Well, t o kind o f paint t he p icture, t here w as

t he I G r ep or ts t ha t a dd re ss ed t he i ne ff ec ti ve n at ur e o f

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s tr aw p ur ch as er s. T he d ru g e nf or ce me nt f or t he o ff ic e

h er e i n P ho en ix w as l oo ki ng t o s ta nd u p a n o rg an iz ed

crime drug enforcement task force strike force, OCDETF.

A nd t he s pe ci al a ge nt i n c ha rg e o f t he D EA o ff ic e w as

a sk in g f or A TF 's p ar ti ci pa ti on i n t hi s j oi nt

multi-agency strike force.

A TF h er e w as n ot a bl e t o g et a ny s tr aw p ur ch as e

p ro se cu ti on s a t t he t im e b ec au se o f a n i nt er pr et at io n o f

t he l aw b y t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e h er e i n t he

D is tr ic t o f A ri zo na . S o t hi s s tr at eg y i n O ct ob er 2 00 9

h an de d d ow n b y t he D AG 's o ff ic e, a ct ua ll y f ro m t he

P ho en ix p er sp ec ti ve , w as w el l t im ed a nd p ro vi de d u s w it h

d ir ec ti on o n h ow t o p ro ce ed i n t he se t yp es o f f ir ea rm s

trafficking investigations.

Q. And h ow l ong w ere y ou i n Phoenix a t this t ime a s

o f O ct ob er ' 09 a s t he A SA C?

A. I a rrived i n early J une o f '08, s o that w ould

have been approximately 16 months.

Q. A nd w as i t y ou r ex pe ri en ce t ha t the p ro se cu ti on

o f s tr aw p ur ch as er s w as a c ha ll en ge ?

A. In the best terms. And the U.S. Attorney's

O ff ic e h ad i ss ue w it h, i n t he ir o pi ni on , i n p ro se cu ti ng

s tr aw p ur ch as er s. I t w as t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e' s

p os it io n t ha t t he y n ee de d t he g un s f or p ro se cu ti on s i n

t he c ou rt ro om . A nd b ec au se t he g un s, a m aj or it y o f t he

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t im e, h ad b ee n r ec ov er ed i n M ex ic o, t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s

O ff ic e f el t t he y c ou ld n' t p ro se cu te t he s tr aw

p ur ch as er s, a nd r ef er re d t o i t a s a c or pu s i ss ue w it h

r eg ar d t o t he s ta tu te , t he f ed er al s ta tu te . S o t he re

were virtually no straw purchase prosecutions.

Q. W as th er e an y or ga ni ze d co mm un ic at io n be tw ee n

t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e a nd A TF 's P ho en ix f ie ld

o ff ic e a bo ut t hi s p ro bl em o r q ue st io n?

A. Yes, sir, there was. In fact, there was a

n um be r o f m ee ti ng s h el d b et we en A SA C N ee dl es

N-e-e-d-l-e-s, ATF's counsel in Phoenix, Tom Karmgard,

K-a-r-m-g-a-r-d, and the leadership at the

U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e h er e i n P ho en ix .

Q. W as M r. N ew el l in vo lve d in t ho se c onv er sa ti on s?

A. I believe he was, yes, sir.

Q. But you were not?

A. I d on 't r ec all b ein g inv ol ve d in t ho se m ee tin gs

s pe ci fi ca ll y a t t he t im e. U nt il O ct ob er 1 st , t he o nl y

e nf or ce me nt g ro up t ha t I o ve rs aw i n P ho en ix w as t he

i nt el li ge nc e g ro up , w hi ch w as n ot i nv ol ve d i n

p ro se cu ti on s. S o I c ov er ed t he e nf or ce me nt g ro up s i n

t he s ou th er n h al f o f A ri zo na , i n T uc so n, a s w el l a s t he

s ou th er n h al f o f N ew M ex ic o.

Q. I see. Until you learned about this meeting

f ro m M r. N ee dl es o r f ro m M r. N ew el l?

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A. W e wo ul d ha ve m eet in gs , we b ei ng M r. N ee dl es ,

M r. N ew el l a nd I , r eg ul ar ly r eg ar d t o t hi s i ss ue , a s

w el l a s M r. K ar mg ar d, a nd w e d is ag re ed w it h t he p os it io n

o f t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e. B ut i t w as s om et hi ng

t ha t M r. N ew el l a nd M r. B ur ke w er e w or ki ng o ut , a s w el l

a s M r. N ee dl es a nd M r. K ar mg ar d.

Q. And o n Mr. B urke's s ide, w ho e lse w as i nvolved

i n t ho se d is cu ss io ns , t o y o u r k n o wl ed ge ? W as E mo ry

H ur le y, f or e xa mp le ? W e u nd er st an d h e i s t he A US A t ha t

has responsibility for firearms.

A. I believe Mr. Hurley was involved, yes. I am

n ot s ur e M r . C un ni ng ha m w a s i nv ol ve d a t t ha t p oi nt . I

r ea ll y d on 't r ec al l w ho f ro m t he ir o ff ic e w as

specifically involved.

Q. Do you know if this d ialogue w ith the

U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e l ed t o a d if fe re nt a pp ro ac h i n

t he A TF P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e?

A. Yes, sir, it did. ATF was making some efforts

t o h av e A TF s pe ci al a ge nt s t ra ve l i nt o M ex ic o o r A TF

a ss is ta nt a tt ac h s i n M ex ic o t o t ra ve l t o s ce ne s, c ri me

scenes where firearms were recovered, examine the

f ir ea rm s, a nd p la ce t he ms el ve s i n a p os it io n t o t ra ve l

t o A ri zo na t o t es ti fy i n t he s tr aw p ur ch as e c as es .

T ha t w as d if fi cu lt a t b es t c oo rd in at in g w it h t he

g ov er nm en t o f M ex ic o. T he s ys te m, t he j ud ic ia l s ys te m

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i n M ex ic o i s d if fe re nt t ha n t he U ni te d S ta te s. T he

m il it ar y i s i nv ol ve d i n s ei zi ng f ir ea rm s. A nd t he

firearms are almost immediately removed to military

b as es . S o a ct ua ll y g et ti ng t o s c e ne s a nd e xa mi ni ng

firearms, or getting onto military installations in

M ex ic o w as v er y, v er y t ed io us , a nd a d el ic at e s it ua ti on .

Q. So t he s trategy f or t he A TF a gents h ere i n

P ho en ix t he n c ha ng ed a t s om e p oi nt a ft er t ho se

discussions with the U.S. Attorney's Office?

A. Yes, sir. And with all these issues coming to a

h ea d, t he r ep or ts a nd t he s tr at eg y f ro m J us ti ce , A TF - -

Q. And the corpus issue?

A. - - th e co rp us i ss ue , the l ack o f pr os ec ut io ns ,

t he s tr aw p ur ch as er s, t he f oc us h er e i n P ho en ix a s w el l

a s a cr os s t he c ou nt ry a s f ar a s I a m c on ce rn ed b ec am e t o

l oo k a t t he se c ar te ls a s a c on sp ir ac y, a nd t ry in g t o g o

a ft er t he s ho t c al le rs , i f y ou w il l, w it hi n t he c ar te l,

t he u pp er e ch el on , i ns te ad o f g oi ng a ft er t he s tr aw

purchasers.

Q. As I u nderstand i t, i n the l atter h alf o f '09,

s om e o f t he s pe ci al a ge nt s i n y ou r o ff ic e, s uc h a s H op e

MacAllister, began collecting information from some of

t he a re a F FL s a bo ut s us pe ct ed l ar ge b ul k p ur ch as es f ro m

suspicious persons.

A. Yes, sir. On October 1st of 2009, ATF

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S o t he o th er t hi ng t ha t I g ue ss I w il l s ay w it h

r eg ar d t o O ct ob er i s I t ra ns it io ne d t he o ve rs ig ht a s t he

A SA C o f t hi s i nv es ti ga ti on t o A SA C N ee dl es i n m id A pr il .

S o a s f ar a s t he d ev el op me nt s b et we en t he n a nd O ct ob er ,

I b el ie ve I w as j us t f or wa rd ed t hi s b ri ef in g p ap er ,

b ec au se M r. N ee dl es w as u na va il ab le a t t ha t t im e.

Q. So y ou d on't k now w hether t here w as a change i n

s tr at eg y t o n ot n ec es sa ri ly s lo w d ow n t he f ir ea rm s, l ik e

t he s tr at eg y a pp ea re d t o b e i n J an ua ry ?

A. In O ctober I a m not sure i f there w as, b ut I am

n ot a wa re t ha t t he s tr at eg y e ve r c ha ng ed s ig ni fi ca nt ly

a t a ny p oi nt d ur in g t he i nv es ti ga ti on .

Q. Do y ou k now i f t he a ttempt t o s low t he p urchases

o f g un s w or ke d?

A. I believe it worked, yes, sir.

Q. So t he s trategies t hat w ere p ut i n place i n

J an ua ry o r a t l ea st r ef er en ce d i n t he O CD ET F p ap er , y ou

think they were successful?

A. Yes, sir, because , the owner of ,

w ou ld t el l t he se s tr aw p ur ch as er s w he n t he s tr aw

p ur ch as er s w ou ld c al l t he s to re t ha t h is s hi pm en t w as n' t

c om in g i n f or d ay s a he ad o f t im e, w he n i n f ac t h e w ou ld

h av e t hem in h is s tor e. S o h e w oul d ke ep t he s tr aw

p ur ch as er s o n t he h oo k a nd s ay i t w il l j us t b e a c ou pl e

m or e d ay s, I e xp ec t t he m t om or ro w. T ha t n ex t d ay w ou ld

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A. Okay. But if he called up in the end of

A pr il h e d id n' t s pe ak t o m e, b ec au se I w as o ff f ro m

A pr il 1 6t h. S o a f te r A p ri l 1 6 th - - f r om A pr il 1 6t h

u nt il J un e 2 nd I w as o ut of t he of fi ce. A nd a ft er t ha t

I n o l o ng er h ad o ve rs ig ht o f t h e i nv es ti ga ti on . S o i f

M r. G il s ta te d t ha t h e c al le d t he e nd o f A pr il a nd s po ke

t o m e a nd e xp re ss ed c on ce rn s, t ha t w ou ld b e i na cc ur at e,

b ec au se I w as n' t i n t he o ff ic e.

Q. Fair enough. I was representing to you it is my

r ec ol le ct io n h e s ai d i t w as M ar ch o r A pr il .

A. Okay.

Q. So... But do you remember generally any other

i ss ue s b ei ng r ai se d b y t he A TF f ol ks i n M ex ic o?

A. I don't. Like I said, the Mexico folks

g en er al ly w er en 't c om in g t o t al k t o m e. T he y w er e

t al ki ng t o M r. N ew el l.

Q. Okay. If you flip over to tab 20.

A. Yes, sir, I have it in front of me.

Q. It i s an e -mail b etween D ave V oth a nd B rian

K en ri ck , w ho w as a n A TF l aw ye r i n R oc kf or d, I ll in oi s.

A. Right, yes, sir.

Q. As I understand t he p rocess f or g oing u p on a

w ir e, c or re ct m e if I am w ro ng , b ut A TF is go in g to go

u p o n a w ir e, a c as e a ge nt w ou ld w ork w ith th e

U .S . A tt or ne y t o p ut t og et he r t he a pp li ca ti on ?

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U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND

GOVERNMENT REFORM

IN THE MATTER OF: ))

ATF'S PROJECT GUNRUNNER AND )OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS. )

)

I N TE R VI E W O F

Phoenix, ArizonaMay 18, 2011

AR IZ ON A RE PO RT IN G SE RV IC E, IN C.Court Reporting

P 1

By:Prepared for: ter

Certificate No. 50658MR. STEPHEN CASTORAttorney at Law

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INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

WITNESS PAGE

Examination by Mr. Castor 59Examination by Mr. Foster 103Further Examination by Mr. Castor 108Further Examination by Mr. Foster 124Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132

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G unr un ne r, we , I , a s a n o wn er o f t he g un s to re a nd a n

F FL d ea le r, h av e a lw ay s c oo pe ra te d a nd i nf or me d t he

P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e o f t he B ur ea u o f A lc oh ol , T ob ac co ,

Firearms, and Explosives of any sales involving either

l ar ge n um be rs o f m il it ar y t yp e g ra y w ea po ns o r h an dg un s,

a ny th in g o f t hi s n at ur e. A nd t hi s i s a bo ve a nd b ey on d.

We have always cooperated.

I n f ac t, I m ade r efe re nce to t hi s t his y ear in a

s ta te me nt d at ed F eb ru ar y 1 st , w hi ch a pp li es t o t ho se

i nd iv id ua ls I f ee l t ha t d o u ph ol d t he l aw a nd d on 't u se

i t a s a p ol it ic al h id de n a ge nd a. B ut t ha t' s b es id e t he

point.

T o c on ti nu e, t he se p ur ch as es , o nc e I w as

n ot if ie d b y H op e M ac Al li st er d ir ec tl y, s he a sk ed m e t o

notify her via cell number, which is (602) . I

k no w i t by h ea rt . I as ke d h er a t t ha t t ime wh y, wh at i s

up. Her answer to me is well, you can expect to see an

i nc re as e o f p ur ch as es o f A K- 47 t yp e r if le s. T hi s, o f

c ou rs e, i s n o t a s ur pri se . W e d o c ar ry t he m a s p ar t o f

o ur i nve nt or y, a s a l ot o f o th er s to re s d o. W he n I sa y

c ar ry , I d on 't s to ck n or ma ll y m or e t ha n, s ay , s ix o r

e ig ht i n a ny g iv en t im e n or ma ll y.

What occurred immediately, within five days,

f ou r t o f iv e d ay s, o f m y c on ve rs at io n w it h A ge nt

M ac Al li st er i n w hi ch s he i s g iv in g m e a h ea ds -u p t o

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G et ti ng b ac k t o i t, A ge nt M ac Al li st er n or a ny

other agent identified the cash, recorded serial

n um be rs , d i d n' t p ho to gr ap h i t. N o d r u g s n i ff in g d og w as

b ro ug ht i n b y t he P ho en ix P ol ic e D ep ar tm en t, w hi ch t he y

d o, b y t he w ay , m ai nt ai n a l og bo ok o f w he n t ho se d og s

a re u se d. T ha t d i dn 't h ap pe n u nt il m uc h l at er i n t he

d ec li ni ng m on th s o f 2 01 0, i n w hi ch I w as i ns tr uc te d

personally by Agent MacAllister and representatives from

A TF t o s et t hi s c as h as id e i n a pl as ti c b ag in w hi ch t he

n ar co ti cs d og s c ou ld t ak e a n a ss es sm en t o f i t t o

d et er mi ne i f t he re w er e n ar co ti cs s om eh ow o n t he m on ey .

Now, getting back to, say, approximately

O ct ob er , N ov em be r o f 2 00 9, I h ad m y m ee ti ng , o nc e a ga in

a t m y r eq ue st , w ha t I b el ie ve w as g oi ng t o b e D av id V ot h

a nd H op e M ac Al li st er . E mo ry H ur le y i nt ro du ce d h im se lf .

H e w as i nt ro du ce d t o m e, r at he r, b y t he t wo A TF a ge nt s.

A nd i n m y o ff ic e, I v oi ce d m y c on ce rn s o ve r s ev er al

s ub je ct s, o ne o f w hi ch p ri ma ri ly w as t he a mo un t o f

w ea po ns t ha t w er e b ei ng p ur ch as ed a t m y s to re .

N ow , i t i s i mp or ta nt t o n ot e t ha t I h ad n ev er

b ef or e s ee n a n i ns ta nc e i n m y 2 0 y ea rs o f d oi ng b us in es s

w he re w e w ou ld s ee p ur ch as es g o f ro m, s ay , z er o t o 5 0

q ui te l it er al ly o ve rn ig ht , w it hi n a m at te r o f d ay s b ei ng

n ot if ie d b y A TF . A nd p ar ti cu la rl y w it h t he c as h

i nv ol ve d a t t hi s j un ct ur e, I e xp re ss ed m y c on ce rn t o

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w ha t I b el ie ve w as t he h ea d o f t he m ee ti ng , w hi ch w ou ld

b e E m o ry H ur le y. H e' s t h e A s s is ta nt U ni te d S t a te s

A tt or ne y, w ho w as a ls o i de nt if ie d t o m e b y t he a ge nt s a s

t he p ro se cu ti ng a tt or ne y o f t he se c as es t he y w er e

b eg in ni ng t o g et i nt o.

E mo ry H ur le y b eg an i n a n e xc ul pa to ry m an ne r

s ay in g t ow ar ds m e t ha t m y h el p h as b ee n d em on st ra ti ve

a nd b ey on d b el ie f t ha t I w ou ld h el p t he m i n a j us t

c au se . D em on st ra ti ve w as t he e xa ct t er m A ss is ta nt

U .S . A tt or ne y H ur le y u se d. I d ec id ed t o s im pl y a sk w ha t

w as o n m y m in d, a nd t ha t i s h ow l on g i s t hi s c as e g oi ng

t o c on ti nu e; n um be r t wo , d o I s ti ll k ee p b ri ng in g t he se

weapons into my store, because, number three, apparently

w or d i s g et ti ng o ut o n t he s tr ee t f ro m y ou r t ar ge ts t ha t

a ll o f a su dd en n ow I a m a tt rac ti ng a lo t of o the r

i nd iv id ua l b uy er s r es pe ct n ot j us t t he t ar ge ts b ut I a m

g et ti ng a l ot o f p er ip he ra l a ct iv it y.

I n o th er w or ds , w e h av e f em al es c om in g i n;

C au ca si an ; H is pa ni c; B la ck , A fr ic an A me ri ca n. I t r ea ll y

d id n' t m at te r. E ve ry bo dy s ee me d t o b e c om in g i n a nd

s ta rt in g t o p ur ch as e o ne , t wo , t hr ee . B ut t he i ni ti al

t ar ge ts t ha t A TF w as f oc us ed o n a t t ha t t im e w ou ld b e

J ac ob C ha mb er s a n d S ea n S te wa rt . T he y f o c us ed t he ir

attention primarily on them.

W ha t I f ou nd s tr an ge w as t ha t t he y w ou ld u se

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m on ey , t he y w ou ld c om e r ig ht i n a nd w it ho ut a c ar e i n

t he w or ld m ak e p ur ch as es a s i f n ob od y w as w at ch in g t he m.

I t w as j us t u nc an ny. I d id n' t u nd ers ta nd i t. It m ad e

n o s ens e. I h av e n ev er s ee n t hi s b efo re . A nd t rus t m e,

I a m q ui te l it er al ly f am il ia r, b ei ng 2 0 y ea rs i n t hi s

b us in es s, o f h o w t he se t hi ng s g o. T hi s f ol lo we d n ot a

p re di ct ab le o rd in ar y p at te rn w ha ts oe ve r. A nd I v oi ce d

t he se c on ce rn s t o a ll t hr ee o f t he i nd iv id ua ls a t t ha t

D ec em be r 1 7t h m ee ti ng i n 2 00 9.

I w as i ns tr uc te d i n t ha t m ee ti ng i n n o u nc er ta in

t er ms b y t he a ge nt s a nd t he A ss is ta nt U ni te d S ta te s

A tt or ne y h im se lf t o c on ti nu e t o s to ck t he se w ea po ns ,

s ec on d, t o k ee p w or ki ng a nd i nf or m t he P ho en ix f ie ld

o ff ic e a nd t he ir a ge nt s a nd k ee p t he m a pp ri se d o f a ll

d ev el op me nt s w it h r eg ar d t o t he se t yp es o f p ur ch as es .

N ow , w ha t y ou m us t u nd er st an d, I n ev er s us pe ct ed

a t t h at po in t t ha t th er e w a s a p ro ble m wi th t hi s. I

t ru st ed A TF , a s I a lw ay s h av e. T he y a re m y r eg ul at or y

a ge nc y w ho l ic en se s m e, a ud it s m e, o ve rs ee s m e. A nd

t hes e a re f ed er al a ge nt s. A nd a ls o t ha t t hi s i s a

United States Assistant U.S. Attorney here in Phoenix.

S o I h ad n o r ea so n t o d ou bt o r s us pe ct a ny th in g i n

c om pa ri so n to w hat w e n o w k now . S o I w en t al on g w i th

this.

A nd a ll t he w ay t hr ou gh t hi s g oi ng i nt o y ea r

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Q. The ATF agents?

A. That is c orrect, Agent D odson b eing o ne o f t hem

that I experienced myself.

Q. Who f rom A TF f irst i nvited y ou t o have a camera

p ut i n t he s to re ?

A. Hope MacAllister.

Q. And y ou b elieve t hat h appened i n l ate s pring o f

2010?

A. Yes.

Q. And d id s he h ave t o make a s ales p itch t o you o n

that?

A. No. She emphasized the importance of my

c oo pe ra ti on , t ha t i t w as l ea di ng t o s o m an y d if fe re nt

a re as , t ha t m y h el p w as s o, y ou k no w, m on um en ta l t ha t i t

w ou ld b e s o h el pf ul i f t he y w er e a bl e t o d o t ha t, w hi ch

l ed m e t o b el ie ve t ha t I w as d oi ng w ha t I w as s up po se d

t o d o, c oo pe ra te u nd er t he g ui de li ne s o f t he l ic en se .

S o I s ai d s ur e, p ut i t i n.

Q. W as i t yo ur u nd er sta nd in g th ey w er e wa tch in g th e

c am er a s o t he y c ou ld s ur ve il s om e o f t he se s tr aw

purchase suspects?

A. That i s the p urpose t hey t old m e, y es.

Q. Was i t your u nderstanding t hey w ere g oing t o

interdict these weapons shortly after?

A. Absolutely. I was assured all the way through

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t hi s p ro gr am t ha t t he y w ou ld b e s to pp ed b ef or e t he y

w ou ld e ve r h ar m a ny on e o r g et b el ow t he b or de r.

Q. S o AT F ma de a ff ir mat iv e re pr es en ta ti on s to y ou

that these weapons would be interdicted?

A. The entire time.

Q. D id t he y ma ke a ny r ep re se nt at io ns t o yo u th at

o th er F FL s w er e p ar ti ci pa ti ng i n a s im il ar t yp e o f

arrangement?

A. They did.

Q. Did t hey g ive y ou t he n ames o f those F FLs?

A. was one them in Prescott. I do not

r ec al l a ny o th er s, b ut t he y s ai d t he re w er e o th er s.

Q. Do y ou k now i f any o ther F FLs h ad c ameras i n

their store?

A. I was not told.

Q. Did y ou e ver h ave a ny c onversations w ith a ny

o th er a re a F FL s a bo ut t hi s?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Were you told not to by ATF?

A. Yes. I was told somewhere along the line that,

t he e xa ct v er bi ag e I c an 't r ec al l, s om et hi ng l ik e w e

n ee d t o k ee p t hi s q ui et , s om et hi ng a lo ng t ho se l in es . I

c an no t b e s pe ci fi c, t ho ug h. T ha t w as m y u nd er st an di ng .

Q. W hen t he i nd ic tme nt c am e ou t in J an ua ry 2 01 1,

w er e y ou s ur pr is ed t o h av e y ou r n am e a ll o ve r t ha t?

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Exhibit 49

Exhibit 49

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270/474

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House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m.

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Appearances:

For the HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM:

STEVE CASTOR, CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS

CARLTON DAVIS, COUNSEL

ASHOK M. PINTO, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS

JESSICA LAUX, COUNSEL

SUSANNE SACHSMAN GROOMS, MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL

DONALD K. SHERMAN, MINORITY COUNSEL

JUSTIN KIM, MINORITY PROFESSIONAL STAFF

For the SENATE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY:

JASON PARIS, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR OVERSIGHT AND NOMINATIONS

CHAN PARK, SENIOR COUNSEL

JASON A. FOSTER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL

TRISTAN LEAVITT, MINORITY STAFF

BRIAN M. DOWNEY, MINORITY INVESTIGATOR

ROB DONOVAN, MINORITY STAFF

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For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE:

MOLLY GASTON, ATTORNEY ADVISOR, OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS

For MR. VOTH:

GREG SERRES, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, ATF

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I think, historically, they had opted, to some extent, to take

the cases to the State court in just kind of like a fraud-type statute.

It had nothing to do with firearms specifically. It's just the fact

that you -- I guess it would be like a nonsufficient check really. You

know, it was a fraud-type count. I know they have gone that route

specifically because of not getting where they thought they wanted to

get with firearms prosecutions with regards to straw-purchase cases.

Q Okay.

A And so I think there was a general sense of that frustration.

And I'm quite certain Mr. Newell was aware of it. He had been there

the longest, and he had talked about some of the hurdles of working

in Phoenix and how we were trying to get past some of these things and

move forward.

Q I think I'm at the end of my time, but I have a couple more

questions.

So when you raised that concern, what came down?

A Well, I know there was -- one of the issues was this corpus

delecti issue, as the U.S. Attorney's Office calls it. And I know

Mr. Karmgard prepared a corpus delecti kind of briefing, where he cited

some caselaw and stuff, and sent that over to the U.S. Attorney's Office

and had some discussion with them on, kind of, the ATF position on that.

You know, the position of corpus delecti is that if the gun goes

to Mexico and is recovered in Mexico, it kind of never happened, because

we can't use that in court. It would be hearsay or whatever for a

criminal prosecution. And so they believed, correctly or incorrectly,

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wasn't a strategic initiative, and this case she did had different

defendants. I mean, just some real general facts, nothing specific

that I remember.

Q But you knew at that time that you were talking to her that

was a cooperating FFL in this case, Fast and Furious -- what

became the Fast and Furious case.

A Yes.

Q So you mentioned a December 17 meeting. Are you aware

of -- let's back up a second before we get to that. Are you aware of

an October or November 2009 meeting that other agents may have had with

?

A No. I was not in Phoenix at that time period.

Q Right. I understand you wouldn't have firsthand knowledge,

but do you have any secondhand knowledge? Were you aware of a meeting

that occurred in that time frame that included Mr. Emory Hurley, the

assistant U.S. attorney?

A No, I am not aware.

Q Are you aware of any meetings that Emory Hurley may have

attended at office at any time?

A Just the one that I was at on December 17.

Q So that took place at office?

A Yes. It is a little office in the back of the gun shop.

Q Can you tell us about that meeting?

A Yes. We went in. It was Emory Hurley and another AUSA who

I don't remember and who is no longer an AUSA; it was a female. It

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was Hope, it was Emory, it was me, it was . We went into his office

and told him that we can't tell him who to sell guns to, we can't tell

him not to sell guns to people, that it is his business and he needs

to follow his business practice and his business license. But in the

event that somebody called, let's say, from a phone number prior to

picking up guns, if he could provide us that phone number off his caller

ID, that that would be helpful. He didn't have the video surveillance

in his store that he owned or maintains. We talked about putting one

in, an ATF one that we would monitor. We talked about if there are

any license plates he could get, that would be helpful. We just

generally talked about cooperation.

Q Why was Emory Hurley at that meeting?

A He is an AUSA. We wanted to make sure that we were following

the letter of the law and not asking him to do anything illegal, and

also not violating anybody's civil liberties by denying their right

to firearms. So he is a person with legal -- I guess you would call

it legal expertise for lack of anything better I guess. He certainly

seemed like a logical choice. He was involved in the investigation.

He was aware of the cooperation of the FFL in the investigation.

Q So how many other times did you have assistant U.S. attorneys

go and talk to cooperating FFLs?

A Just this occasion, and the occasion when we went to meet

with at .

Q So those two occasions and this case. How about any other

cases?

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A I don't think I was involved in any other cases.

Q Why not?

A I didn't really have firearms trafficking cases going on in

my previous role at the ATF. And we weren't really seeing the same

problem, so we didn't have the same need to cooperate with FFLs like

that.

Q What was the problem? You said you didn't see the same

problem. What was the problem?

A Well, the large volume of guns being purchased. In St. Paul,

Minneapolis, I mean, if someone buys one High Point or three High

Points, they don't buy the same volume of firearms that we see in

Phoenix.

Q So Mr. Hurley got involved in the meeting on December 17 for

what purpose?

A I thought I answered that; to make sure that we weren't

denying anybody's civil liberties or their Second Amendment right.

And we also weren't doing the opposite of that and asking him to do

illegal sales.

Q Who suggested that Emory Hurley come to the meeting?

A I don't know.

Q So it wasn't your idea?

A I don't think so. It was just, hey, we are going to have

a meeting with , Emory is coming.

Q Was it Mr. Hurley's idea?

A I don't know.

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Q Did request to meet with Mr. Hurley?

A I don't know. I guess I didn't question who --

Q Who told you Mr. Hurley was going to be there?

A I think Hope. I think she said we are going to have this

meeting Thursday -- whatever the day of the week -- and we are going

to go talk to , and Emory is going to be there. And I didn't think

twice I guess.

Q So did express any concerns at the meeting about

his cooperation?

A No.

Q Did he ask any questions?

A No. He just asked like logical questions about phone

numbers or license plates or the camera, where the camera would be and

stuff like that.

Q So he just asked sort of practical, logistical kinds of

questions?

A Yes.

Q He did not raise any concerns about the numbers of guns that

he was selling to folks who were known to the ATF to be suspected straw

purchasers?

A Not that I remember.

Q You say not that you remember. Could he have said that and

you have forgotten?

A I suppose. I can't remember. I remember our meeting was

whether or not he was doing anything illegal, follow the letter of the

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RPTS

DCMN

A When they determined that the two guns found at the scene

were purchased by Jaime Avila I got a phone call from ASAC George

Gillett, and he said that he wanted Mr. Avila arrested 15 minutes ago,

expressing to me a sense of urgency.

I contacted Emory Hurley personally, relayed that information to

him. There was initially a little bit of what I guess I would

characterize as maybe reluctance in that he was concerned about

charging the entire case and if this would compromise the entire case

by revealing all the other -- through discovery -- all the other reports

and wiretaps and all that stuff.

And I suggested, if possible, we could find a kind of stand-alone

reason to charge him if that would suffice to satisfy his concern.

He asked me wh

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