3 481 MATSOBANE Domestic Workers and Employers … · told us to be aware of ourself ... I want to say that if this was untrue, ... We must be aware of ourselves if we want to he

3 481 MATSOBANE

Domestic Workers and Employers Project? -- It is in the suburbs

of Johannesburg and its director is Sue Gordon though I am not

very sure he is the director or she and to my knowledge it had

nothing to do with the Urban Industrial Mission.

MR ACKERMANN: Yes? Angela Norman was employed I think by

the Association for Self-Help.

Did she have anything to do with the Wilgespruit Fellow­

ship Centre? -- No, not to my knowledge.

So these two people were going to help you? -- Yes.

NOw, did you receive any financial assistance from (10)

anybody to hold this course at Wilgespruit? -- Yes, I did.

What type of assistance did you receive? -- This was to

use the facilities at Wilgespruit and the catering there. I

also managed to get money for hiring a car in which we would

travel. This was a Combi.

Where did you get that money from? -- I applied for the

loan with my employer.

So the only assistance you received came from your employer?

Yes.

Is that Reverend White? -- Yes. (20)

THE COURT ADJOURNS.

3 48 ; ~

THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 3C ~ h JANUARY, 1979.

DANIEL MATSOBANE: still und e r oath:

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN:

;' ;ATSOBANE

These classes th ~ t

you conducted at Wilgespruit to train these coordinators, did

you conduct these classes in your private capacity? -- Yes, I

would not say it was entirely in my private capacity, though I

initiated all this. I was doing all this while I was at work.

BY THE COURT: I do not understand. Are these - what classes

are we talking about now?

MR ACKERMANN: That is the training of the coordinators (iO)

where Miss Mosweu also took part.

BY THE COURT: You say it was not entirely in your private

capacity? -- Yes.

MR ACKERMANN: Please explain that. -- As I explained yesterd a y

I asked for volunteers who would help me in holdin g the cl asse s

at sc hool. Certain people volunteered and thei r tr a ining wa s

held at my place of employment. I also h a d to r eport t o my

employ e rs the progress of the training.

BY TH E COURT: The progress of the classes? -- The progress o ~

the training of these people who had volunteered to help ( ~ )

me in teaching or holding classes at the location.

MR ACKERMANN; The t r aining of these coordinators - one last

question on this aspect - the training of these coordinators

at WFC did that take place during office hours? -- It was held

over weekends but I cannot say it was during office hour s or

not because I sometimes had to work over weekends.

Now, I want to turn to the clas s es itself, that is the

classes that you had together with Angela Norman conducted at

Wilge s pruit. Now you heard the evidence of Dorca s Mosweu and

she said that they had been told of a method called the ( ";0;

dialo gue awar e ness method. -- Yes.

That/ •••

3 483 MATSOBANE

That according to thi s Inethod in order to teach a person

to read and and write, certdin elements had to be aroused. -­

Yes, I heard her say that.

And these elements were need, concern, anger and aim.

Yes.

Why did you arouse anger in order to teach these illiterate

people to read and write? -- This was not necessarily to arouse

anger in these people, but it was that the person teaching should

be able to make it clear to those you teach what the causes of

anger are. Not that the person who teaches should make (10)

the people you teach know what causes anger, but that he him­

self, the teacher, should know what causes anger in people.

The people that he was teaching? -- The people he teaches,

the teacher should know what makes people angry and avoid that,

otherwise he can make the people angry.

How would that influence these classes? Why was it

necessary for this coordinator or this teacher to avoid anger

on the part of his pupils? -- Because when one tea c hes an adult

it is not like teaching children. One has to be awarea the

fact that these are adults, some may be having families ( 20)

and one has to be careful of what ~ says or how he teaches them,

and avoid angering them. The coordinator must then at all

times do his best to give these people their due respect.

So is your evidence that these elements were not to be

aroused, these elements of need, concern, anger and aim were

they not to be raised? NO, not that these were to be aroused

in the people who were to be taught by the coordinator, but

that the coordinator should know that there are such things and

he must avoid them. If he does not, then he cannot have a good

class or progress in his class. And if these elements be ( j ~ )

arouse d in the process of teaching, the coordinato r must kno w

how/ •••

3 484 MATSOBANE

how to handle this.

I want to read a certain passage from Miss Mosweu's

evidence and I want to know whether you agree with this passage.

It is Volume 60 page 2 417. She told of a certain stage during

this course at Wilgespruit where they, the would-be coordinators

were put in the position of the pupils:

"Yes, in that case we would sit down

there as people who were now learners

in this method and then our teacher

who is now in this case a coordinator

would be just there with us. Then we

would sit and listen to a coordinator.

When they were teaching us this, they

told us to be aware of ourself, social

conditions, political conditions and

others, domestics. That when you teach

a person the 'four elements must be

raised in order that this literacy

class be a success."

(0)

Was this the true position? -- These people who were to (20)

be the coordinators who were being trained, in the process of

their training the elements you have mentioned were seen to

arise in them. They had to be made to understand that these

elements which had a~oused in them can also arouse in the

classes they will hold. They had to know how to handle them.

When they were giving these classes then it should be

avoided by them? -- That they should know how to treat the

situation whenever such elements have aroused.

Page 2 418 she proceeds:

"We look at that code and then started

discussing this to raise the four elements.

We/ •••

(30)

3 48~j MATSOBANE

We sit discussing that this code is

hurting because Black people are

fighting each other, they do not have

unity. They must sit down and come

together and discuss or solve their

problems and look for a common enemy

and fight against that. In our case

those who were in that course we felt

that the person who is the cause that

we cannot unite it is the oppressor,

in other words those are Whites."

Was this discussed during those classes held at Wilgespruit?

The trainees came forth with that during the classes.

So this is a true reflection of what had happened at

Wilgespruit during those classes:

the trainee coordinators.

Yes, but this came from

And then she tells here of a last message given by you

at the termination of the course, that is on page 2 418:

"The last message by Dan was to go

and apply that method (that is the

dialogue awareness method)."

Yes.

"To apply that method because that

method will make us able to arouse

the concern of people socially, not

concern but c ondition.

BY THE COURT: Just a moment. You say

through that method you would o rouse? -­

The four elements_

To the conditions? -- To the

conditions socially, po litically and

otherwise/ •••

(0)

(20 )

(30)

t'1ATSOBANE

otherwise."

What do you understand from this part of her evidence? -- What

I understand is that she understood this message to mean that

she as the coordinator had to go and arouse these elements

in the people she will teach, whereas these elements were to~

known by her and she had to know how to handle the situation

whenever such elements aroused in the class she taught.

So there was some misunderstanding on the part of the

witness as far as the application of this method was concerned.

Yes, because of what I heard her say in her evidence. (10)

A very serious misunderstanding. Because if I may add,

she was to arouse these elements amongst her pupils and that

was something she had to avoid at all costs. -- Yes, that is

what she said in her evidence. I also realised that she had

not clearly understood what was taking place there because what

was said there was not exactly what she said in her evidence.

May I ask you this question: do you mean that she was sayins

that part you have read is what took place at Wilgespruit or

in the classes?

She testified here that this was a message given to (20)

the would-be coordinators by you yourself. And that this

particular method was to be applied in this particular fashion.

-- Actually in the fashion they were taught not really in the

fashion of what she was testifying of here, not exactly in

the manner she testified.

But isn't it so that what is said here by Mosweau is the

eYact opposite of what was s aid by you according to your own

evidence? -- Yes, I would say so.

And did you tell your Counsel that she completely m~s­

understood the position of this very, very important aspect (30)

of that training course? -- Yes.

And/ •••

3 4it ~' MATSODANE

And do you know wheth(!x' she was cross-examined on this

particular aspect, this particular utterance on her part? -­

I hope so.

BY THE COURT: Well you were in court here. Can you explain,

if she was not cross-examined, why she was not cross-examined?

Yes, it is correct that I was in court but I do not know

whether she was specifically asked questions on that point,

though I know that she was cross-examined.

MR ACKERMANN: I want to say that if this was untrue, this

evidence on the part of Mosweu you would have been very (10)

much concerned to see that the record must be put straight by

your Counsel. -- Yes, I was concerned. This is because she was

cross-examined on her evidence.

I would like you to have a look at EXHIBIT LLLLL, this was

handed in during your evidence-in-chief and these are the

minutes of these literacy courses conducted by you and Ansela

Norman at Wilgespruit. I would like you to have a look at page

9. There is a heading there, paragraph 2:

"Our own concerns."

If I may read to you:

"vJe then di scussed how themes for

discussion and generative words could

be worked out. It was explained that

a community survey must be done. We

must find out what were the concerns

of people in the community where we

want to ~tart literacy Uroups, but we

cannot s urvey other people before we

have looked honestly into ourselves.

We must be aware of ourselves if we

want to he lp other people become

aware/ •••

(20)

(30)

3 48H rv1ATSOBANE:

aware."

Now what do you understand by that? -- I understand it just as

it is written here.

Do c s this also include anger? -- Yes.

Now, if this 'concerns' means anger, how do you explain

this sentence:

"We must be aware of ourselves if we

want to help other people become aware."

Does that mean that they should also be made aware of these

particular angers or concer~s? -- As I have said here, if (10)

one is aware of himself then he will know what provokes you to

anger and the people you will teach should also know what

provokes a person to anger. These coordinators had to know

this.

But why we r e these coordinators to help other people to

become aware of these angers? -- The coordinators had to know

what provokes a person to anger and also be aware of the fact

that when one has been provoked to anger, he can misbehave.

They had to know that when people are provoked to anger, those

people can also misbehave. ( ~ 0)

So they were in fact to assist these illiterate people to

become aware of certain angers. -- Not really that they should

know of the s e angers, but that they should know how to behave

or how to handle situations wh enever they are angered.

What has this got to do with literacy? -- This had to do

with literacy in this manner: Mado and myself are young people

and we were going to teach adults or elderly people. We had

to know how to behave and how to tQlk to th e se elderly people.

According to our practice or tradition we cannot just talk

anyhow or say anything to elderly people, we had to know (30)

all this. We therefore had to know that whenever an elderly

person/ •••

3 48: MATSOBAr~E

person had been provoked to anger we should be able to handle

that situation in a proper manner. This would not be th e

approach one would take when teaching children. That is why

I say this had to do with literacy.

Now I am asking you this question for the last time. Why

were these people that you were to teach, the illiterate people,

why were they to be assisted to become aware of angers and

concerns? You have confined yourself to the coordinators now,

but what about the illiterate people? -- Elderly people also

do respect youth especially when a young person teaches (10)

them but the young person can also make mistakes. These

elderly people had to know how to correct the young person

whenever he has made a mistake. If they do not do that, if

they do not correct the young person the alternative is that

they can just walk out and feel that the young person has no

respect for them. When such situations arise the young person

shall have wasted the time of these elderly people because when­

ever they would go to classes to be taught to read and write

they do not just go there to while away time but they go there

because it is important for them to learn how to read (~)

and write. These elderly people also go to classes to be

taught because of the fact that what they will be taught will

be of help t o them in their immediate future and even in the

distant future.

Let us look at th~ angers that were to be aroused for these

illiterate people .

"spies and informers"

the second sentence there under the he ading: "Angers". Who

made that c ontribution, can you remember? I cannot remember

who of the trainee coordinators came with this . (30)

Was it perhaps Hippo? -- I have said I cannot remember who

i t/ ...

3 4 ~ I C (\1ATSOBANt:

it is.

Then we look •• -- It could possibly be Hippo or any other

person.

Then we look halfway down that paragraph:

"Politicul despair and lack of involve­

ment on the part of many."

Who made that contribution? -- I cannot remember. There were

quite a number of people there and whenever these things were

said it would not just be one person doing the talking,

different people would say different fuings and therefore I (10)

cannot remember who said what.

And another anger . that was to be aroused for these

illiterate people was the political setup, the second-last

sentence of that paragraph -

"And bias of the laws against Blacks."

Yes, this was said but I would like to correct you just on

this one point that these things were to be aroused in the

illit e rate people.

MR SKWEYIYA: MILord, may I interrupt at this stage. Accused

No.8 would like to go to the lobby. (20)

MR ACKERMANN: The record will speak for itself. I want to

su~gest to you that this method could be used for political

purposes and that was your •• -- No, it was not.

One final question on the Wilgespruit aspect. Who was in

control of Wilgespruit? Reverend White.

And who was the owner of Wilgespruit? The South African

Council of Churches? -- I do not know but what I know i s that

it was owned by churches.

When wer e you transferred, as it were, to St Ansgars , to

assist with the bulk buying scheme? -- I think I was co-· (30)

opted in about September/October, 1975, if I am not mistaken.

When/ •••

3 4<J] MATSOI3ANE

When did you first me(~ t: accused No.1? -- I met accused

No. 1 towards the end of 1974 or in the beginning of 1975 .

Where did you meet him? -- At Wilgespruit.

What was he doing there? Can you remember? -- He had not

been in employment there for a long time, but when he had come

there he was introduced to me as an employee as st Ansgars -

at Wilgespruit, I am sorry.

When did you first learn about the Urban Resources Centre?

BY THE COURT: He was introduced to me as an employee at

Wilgespruit? -- Yes. (0)

But you say that you had not seen him there or he had not

been there for some time? I am not quite clear whether you

mean he had not been working there, had not been employed for

some time or th~t he had not been at Wilgespruit? -- According

to my observation he was a novice at the place. He had not been

iri employment there for a l o ng time.

That is at Wilgespruit now? -- He had come to Wilgespruit

and it was clear that he was an employee at st Ansgars. He

. was brought there or he had come in the company of Reverend

~hite, he had come to Reverend White and then he was

introduced to me .

You say he was introduced to you as an employee at

Wilgespruit? At st Ansgars.

(20)

~ WILSON: MILord, I think there is a slight confusion here.

He was not an employee of Wilgespruit, he was introduced at

Wi 1gesprui t.

.!?Y THE COUHT: Do you mean the word& . ~e was an employee at

Wi 1ge sprui t simpl y me an s th a t he ""as ~ ~ , the pI ace where he was

introduced to him?

[j13 WILSON: I think that i s so. (30 )

.Q..Y THe courn: That may well be the case. I want to get thi s

clear/ .••

3 -192 MAl'SOBANE

clear. I was not certain. He came you say, at any rate he

was with the Reverend Dale Whit~ and this was on the Wilgespruit

premises and th~ Reverend Dale White introduced you to him. -­

He did not come with Reverend White but he had come to him at

Wilgesprui t.

And it was on the Wilgespruit premises then I unders~and

you were intrbduced to No.1. Is that correct? -- Yes.

But he was not employed by Dale White or anyone else as

an employee of Wilgespruit? -- No, he was not.

That is why you said it was clear to you that he was (10)

employed at st Ansgars? -- Yes, and even as he had also said.

MR ACKERMANN: I asked you when did you first hear about the

Urban Resources Centre? I think it was in 1974 or early 1975.

Who told you about it? -- I cannot clearly remember who

told me about it but I think he told me that he was employed at

the Urban l"\e s ources Centre when he had come to Wilgesprui t or

I may also have heard before his arrival at Wilgespruit.

What was your understanding what was the function of the

Urban Resources Centre? -- Pottery, silk-screening and candles

were made there and things like macram& and weaving was (20)

a1 :.> 0 done there.

Was that done in order to improve the social conditions

of the people involved in that scheme of the URC? -- I do not

really know because different people used to go to the place

and even scholars were also going there b~ these people who

were going there were being taught.

Why were they being taught there? Soon you were to take

part in one of the schemes of the URC • What wus the rea~; on,

why wer e th (~ s e sch e mes undertaken by the UHC? -- vJhat I

realised aft e r having gone to join them is that these things (D)

Were be ing done to help people to he lp themselves.

What/ •••

3 ~93 MATSOGANE

What did this organisation or this institution do in

respect of tile youth? -- I do not clearly understand what you

mean by saying in respect of the youth because as I have said

children, scholars also used to go to the place. They would

sometimes come in buses.

When you joined the ranks of the URC to launch this bulk

buying scheme, did you from then on have meetings with accused I

N6. I? -- Yes, this was in order to report to him the progress

I had in the bulk buying scheme.

Did you have regular meetings with him? -- No, I (10)

would not say regular meetings but I say irregular because

I sometimes would not meet him because t also had to do my work.

How often did you meet? -- I cannot specifically say how

often. I would sometimes meet him once a month or at times

twice a month and I would sometimes not meet him for a whole

month.

But you were working at the same place. -- No.

Nevertheless did you become used to each other? -- Yes,

I came to know him and I did get used to him.

Apart from discussions pertaining strictly to the (20)

bUsiness of the URC you also had other informal discussions? --

I do not know, but that is possible· though I do not remember.

But Mr Mothopeng was a very well known person in your

community. -- I would not say so.

Did you discuss current affairs with each other? -- No, I

do not remember discussing this with him. Tll0Ugh I was used to

him but it was not to the extent of sitting with him for some

tilne discussing matters pertaining to the URC and even informal

matters such as turrent affairs.

But didn't you act as his car driver? -- He had his ' (30)

own driver, but when his driver was ill I did help him by taking

him/ •••

MATSOBANC

him to any place he wanted Lo go and then I would go back again.

These places 1 had to take him to were places like meetings in

Johannesburg which he had to attend. When he was late and he

had no driver, he would come to me and ask me to drive him to

Johannesburg. He would at times travel by train.

You knew where he was staying in .Soweto? -- Yes.

Did you at that stage know that he once had been detained

in connection with the PAC activities? And that he had serVed

a sentence on Robben Island? -- Yes, I knew that.

How did you come to know that? -- A community worker (10)

at his place of employment once told me this. What he actually

said was this: the uncle with whom I am working was once

arrested in connection with PAC activities • . '

Was that all that lie said? -- Yes,. that is all.

BY THE COURT: By who was this said? A community worker at

·: .accused No. l' s pI ace of employmen t.

Is that at St Ansgars? -- Yes, at st Ansgars.

MR ACKCRMANN: Who was this community worker? -- Mrs Chi mane

Morur i.

Did you at any stage tell accused No. 1 of your (20)

university background at the University of the North? -- I

think he once aske~ me how far I had gone educationally and I

think I did tell him that I tould not compl~te my studies and

I also think he had asked me with what educational standards

I was employed at my place of employment.

Did you tell him that you had been expelled from the

University of the North? --No, I did not tell him. I do not

like talking about that.

Did you tell him that you had once been a member of SASO?

No. (30)

That you once llad an interest in student politics?,-- No.

Cun/ •••

3 4 9~)

Can you say w he the r h c' w usa war eat t hat s tag e t hat you

were the brother of accused No. 131 -- No, I do not really know.

But he must have known this.

Why do you say that? -- Because I knew that my brother

had at that stage been a trustee of the Urban Resources Centre.

Did you ever di~cuss politics with accused No. 17 -- No.

Did you ever ask him any questions with regard to his

earlier PAC affiliations? -- I did not ask him such questions

because as I said I was not so much used to him to the extent

of discussing such things with him.

You were once interested in student politics. -- Yes.

And a member of SASO. -- Yes.

Didn't you take the liberty of discussing politics with

accused No.1, an ex-PAC man? -- No, I did not.

(10 )

Now yesterday you told me that if only you had the oppor-

tunity you would like to - you would have liked to make a

contribution on the political field. -- Yes.

Now didn't you discuss ways and means to make such a

contribution with accused No. 17 -- It is difficult to discuss

such matters with an elderly person. It would have been (20)

a different case if he had initiated such discussion but once

he is an elderly person.

You have held accused No. 1 in a very high regard. -- Yes.

And you were there with all this bitterness inside you

because of the events at the University of the North. -- Yes.

And this urge inside you to make a contribution on the

political field as far as the liberation of the Black man was

concerned. -- Yes.

And do you want to suggest that there was complete

silence between you and accused No. 1 as far as these

aspects were concerned? Yes, we did not say or discuss

anything/ •••

( lJ)

3 496 MATSOBANE

anything in this regard .

Did you at any stage discuss the rioting or th e civil

disturbances going on in Sowe to with accused No . 17 -- What I

know is that we did not meet with accused No . ' 1 for some time

aft e r the outbre ak of the di s turbance s . I wa s ~lso tied up

with my wo rk . He was later detained, this i s a fter a bout 2

month s or so, it could have been in July or August. I c ame to

know or I heard that he had been detained .

Dorcas Mo s weu testified that you told her that you had

seen accu s ed No . 1 on the day of the outbreak of the riots, (10)

that is the 16 th June, 1976 . -- That is not true .

When did you la s t see a c cused No . 1 before the r iots

broke out in Soweto on the 1 6 th? ~- I do no t remembe r wh e n la s t

I h a d seen him before that day becau se betwee n the pe riod May

and June we had a l o t of work and I wa s travelling e x tensive ly

in the count r y .

So dur i ng May a nd June you had no oppo rtunity of mee ting

accu se d No . i . I s that what you are trying to s ay ?

BY THE COURT : You say you h a d a lot of work and you were

t r ave lling ex t e nsive ly . -- Yes. (20)

I s that work for Mr Whit e? -- Ye s. No, I do not really sa y

I did not h a v e th e o pportunity to mee t him but what I s ay i s

be c a u s e we had a l o t o f work during th a t time I c a nnot r e member

whether or n o t I did meet him .

MR ACKEJ~MANN : But you are abl e to t e ll us that you did not h a v e

a mee ting wi th accu se d No . 1 on the 16 th Jun e , 1976 . -- Yes.

I c· .J th a t be c a u se you r e me mbe r th a t d a y so we ll ? - - Ye s,

be c au se a l o t was wr itte n about in c ide nts th a t t o ok place on

th a t da y a nd if I h a d met him on th a t day th e n I wo uld a lso

r eme mbe r th a t I did mee t him on the day on whi c h so many ( 30 )

inc id e nt s h a v e b ee n wr itte n -a bout .

Did/ •••

HATSOJ3ANE:

Did you meet him on the eve of the outbreak of the riots,

that is the evening of the 15th June? -- No, I did not.

Why can you be so sure about that? -- I can give a simple

explanation, because it is only a day before the 16th June, I

would be in a position to remember that I had just met Mr

Mothopeng on the 15th before I came to know or read about the

incidents that took place on the 16th.

Another question: when did you first have something to

do or anything to do with the Young African Christian Movement

or the Young African Religious Movement? -- I think it was (10)

when they had come to Wilgespruit when they had a seminar.

When was that?

BY TIlE: COUHT: Was that when you first got to know about it

or had something to do with it? -- Not that I first came to

know about it but I first met members thereat my place of

employment.

MR ACKE:RMANN: And when was that? -- This was either in

' September or November.

1976? -- 1976.

BY THE COURT: Had you met no one from YARM before then? (20)

No, I often met my brother.

No one else? ~- Mr Letseleha as well.

Is that Hippo? -- Yes.

Anyone else? -- Mrs Raborifi. I cannot remember the others.

MR ACKERMANN: Is there any possibility that you make a mistake

in this regard that you did not in fact meet the people of YARM

or YACM in cbnnection with fhe seminar in September or October,

1976 but earlier in the year? -- No, I am not making a mistake,

I do not remember meeting them before this time.

Let us take the outbreak of the riots in June as hall- ( 30 )

mark. Was it before or after the outbreak of the riots, that

you/ •••

3 4 98 f'1ATSOBANE:

you first had anything to do with YACM or YARM? It was

af ter the outbreak of the riots because I had said that I met

them in about September or November wh~n they had a seminar.

I would like you to have a look at this diary of yours

197&. Are you perhaps able to identify it? EXHIBIT 00000 .

SY THE COURT.: Is that your diary? -- Yes, it is.

For what year is it? -- 1976.

That is EXHIBIT 00000.

MR ACKERMANN: Will you please have a look at the particular

page referring to the date from the 13th June until the (10)

19th June, 1976 . -- Yes, I do.

Do you see there the 15th June, the Tuesday, you have

written there ostensibly: "Zeph and Dan". -- Yes.

Why did you write that there? -- I think we had to meet on

this day.

You have told us that you did not meet on that particular

day. -- Yes.

And you yourself provided a very good reason why your

memory should be infallible in this regard. -- Xes.

Now doesn't this or these words "Zeph and Dan" ( 20)

indicate that you did in fact have a meeting on that day or

at least an appointment for such a meeting? -- Yes, we had an

appointment, we had to meet on that day.

Isn't the position that on that particular occasion,

that accused No. ,1 told you that you s hould return the following

day and come and see for yourself how things would develop in

Soweto': -- No.

f'1ay we turn to •• (intervene s )

BY THE CO URT: You say you did not ke ep that appointment? -- We

did . not.

f\m ACI<:E: RMANN: May we turn to th e 7th June. There is

osten s ibly/ •••

( 30 )

I I I I

I

I

MATSOBAN~

ostensibly another meeting or an appointment for a meeting

between Dan and Zeph and there it stands: "Planning YACM

seminar." -- Yes.

Why did you write it down there? -- What actually happened

is this, Mr Mothopeng and myself were meeting in connection

with matters pertaining to the bulk buying scheme and I think

what made me write this here is that I had to make arrangements

for this meeting which was to be held at Wllgespruit.

I BY TH~ COUI~T: But this I do not understand. You say you met I

I I

I

I

I

I I . I

I

I

in order to discuss the bulk buying scheme. -- vJe met (10)

to discuss matters of the bulk buying scheme.

Was this entry on the 7th written before the 7th or after

the 7th? -- It was written by me before the 7th.

So before the 7th you say you had an appointment which

you kept for the 7th June to discuss the planning of th e YACM

seminar? -- We had an appointment to meet on this day, the 7th

and we did meet. I had this entry here about the planning for

the YACM seminar and it was after his departure that I went to

start making arrangements for this seminar.

All I just wanted to know is must I understand you (20)

to say that before the 7th June you had arranged to meet him on

the 7th June in connection with the planning for the YACM

seminar? -- No. Though we had an appointment to meet on this

day and I was on this day to report to him the progress of the

bulk buying scheme.

I may have misunderstood you. I thought you told me that

the entry for the 7th . was made before the 7th. -- Yes, it was.

MH \lJILSON: Your Lordship's last question was a double

question.

BY TH~ COUHT: Well perhaps I am still misunderstanding you.(30)

MH WILSON: Your Lordship's question was a meeting on t'he 7th

to/ •••

3 5 (.'If..)

to discuss the YACM seminar.

MATSOBANE

And I think his objection is

he says yes, there was a meeting on the 7th but he says the

YACM semina~, he says in his evidence, was a different thing.

He didn't say the meeting was to discuss the YACM seminar.

I think that is why h e said no to Your Lordship's question.

BY THE COURT: So this note was made before the 7th. Am I

correct there? Have I not misunderstood you? -- Yes •

. Now, if you wrote then before the 7th June "Planning

YACM seminar Dan Zeph", does that not indicate to you that

you had agreed to meet on the 7th to discuss the planning (10)

of the YACM seminar? -- No.

MR ACKERMANN: What made you write these words "Planning

'YACM seminar"? -- Because I had to go and plan the arrangements

for that.

But who told you that you were to make these arrangements?

If I am not mistaken, it had been booked, the seminar had

been booked and what I had to dQ was to make arrangements for

seminars for any group that had booked.

What would these arrangements entail? -- It entailed

getting stock for the catering, making arrangements for ( 20)

the place where they would meet and if they were to spend a

weekend or a week 1 would have to make arrangements for their

accommodation because they would be Black s . These arrangements

I had to make at st Ansgars.

What did you know about the organisation YACM at that

stage in order to be able to do this planning? -- I knew it

to be a youth movement.

Is that all that you knew at that st age? -- That it was

a Chri s tian rnovement of young people who were helping in the

community. (30)

You told us just now that you first had anything to do

wi th/ •••

3 501 MATSOBANS

with YACM afler the taking , fllace of the riots in June/July.

Yes.

Aren't you contradicting yourself now? -- No.

By admitting that you had to do the planning for the YACM

seminar before the taking place of the riots? -- I do not

know whether you understand me clearly. I have said there was

a booking for this group. We had a book where every group

that intend coming to our place is booked and I have to make

arrangements for whatever group would be coming before the day on

which it would come. (10)

BY THE COURT: You had to make arrangements for the group.

You get the booking from the book, do you? -- There is a large

book in our office wherein all the bookings for every group or

all the groups that intend coming to our place are entered.

When was this booked for, the YACM seminar? -- For the

days in June, mid-June.

Do I understand that you only received this inforrnation ,

from the book, not from Zepll Mothopeng or anyone else? -- No.

What wa s the position then? -- I got this information from

the book. (20)

And in regard to the information you wanted about the

- what they proposed to do and how long they proposed to stay

and what sort of accommodation they wanted, who do you get that

from? -- This would also be in the book.

THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TSA.

3 50 ? MATSOBANE

THE COURT RESUMES AFTER THE rEA ADJOURNMENT.

DANIEkMATSOBANE: still under oath:

FUI<THEF\ CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you on that

particular occasion, the 7th, did you then start to make

arrangements for the holding of this YACM seminar? -- If I am

not mistaken I was actually planning for the arrangements .

Why was it necessary for you to attend this particular

seminar if your part to it was really confined to the arrange-

ments as to the rooms and so forth? -- I sometimes whenever I

felt like it, attended some of the seminars and I sometimes (10 )

had to be present at the seminars in order to take people around

and show them places of interest.

Why did you attend this particular seminar? -- I attended

this particular one for the same reasons as the other seminars

and I cannot say I attended the whole seminar, I often had to go

back to my work to continue my work.

Now did I understand you correctly when you said that this

YACM seminar was planned for mid-June? -- Yes, according to tile

r'ecords.

And why was it later held in November or late in the , ( 20 .)

year 1976? -- I think it was cancelled. It did not take place

in June.

Why was it cancelled? -- The reasons are not stated in the

book, but I think I can say the date was changed.

Now, how often did you see accused No. 13, your brother?

U' t usc 0 n fin e 0 u r s e 1 ve s to 1 9 7 6. - - 1 dono t k now w hat to say

how oft e n I met him but he used to come home. He would some-

time s come when bringing children or when coming to fetc]' them

though he would at times not find me home. He would s6metime s

just c ome, ju s t to pay us a visit. (30)

So you paid each other regular vi s it s , family visit s ?

Well/ •••

MATSOBANE

Well, we paid each other v is its.

Did he tell you that he was to establish this youth

organisation in Kagiso? -- Yes, I think he told me if I am not

making a mistake . I think he told me that he wanted to meet

people and start a youth organisation.

What did he tell you what was the reason for establishing

this organisation? -- If I remember correctly, I think he said

this organisation ••

This appeared to be a very good organisation? -- If I

remember correctly I think he said this organisation is (10)

to be started with this reason: it had been realised that

the crime rate in the location was high and the youth in the

location were not leading a satisfactory life.

This appeared to be a very good organisation. -- Yes .

And did you then decide that you would keep interest in

this organisation and its wellbeing? -- My intention was to

keep interest in this organisation if possible .

What do you mean if possible? Your brother was to launch

this organisation. It must have been very easy for you to

find out what the wellbeing of this organisation would be. (20)

-- I am saying fhis because I had many commitments myself, I

knew I would be interested in this organisation but because

of my commitments I would ohly play an active part in it when

possible.

I take it that you had a very strong interest in youth

matters as far as Kagiso was concerned? -- Yes, I had an

interest in th e affairs of the Kagiso community.

And did you then discuss the progress this organisation

was making with accused No. 13, your brother? -- Yes, we did

di sc u ss it at one stage when he was telling me that they (30)

are ~bout to laun c h that organisation. I then said this i s a

good/ •••

3 5011 I"1ATSOBANe

good thing, I will also be .a ble to see what its aims are

besides what he had told me. And I think he had also told me

the date on which it would be launched. This was the date upon

which it had been agreed to launch this organisation though I

think I would not l::e prese nt on that day.

Did he after that inform you of the progress that this

organisation was making in Kagiso? -- After its launching we

could not meet very often because he would at times come back

home from work when I am absent but when we met he did tell me

that they are making good progress. (10)

Did he ever tell you that this organisation was suffering

very badly as far as its finances were concerned?

BY THe COURT: Just a moment, he would come back home very late

or when you were not - or what did you say? -- He at times came

back home when I am not present.

Is that now his home or your home'? -- My home. Yes, he

did tell me that th e y were in need of money.

MR ACKeRMANN: And why did he tell you that? Do you know? --

Well, I do not know whether or not it was because of a question

by me as to what progress they had made see ing that he (20)

had told me that the organisation had been launthed and I think

it was on that qu~stion that he said they had launched the

organisation but that they are still held up with money, they

are in need of money.

They were in such a need of money that members of the

committee had to pay expe~ses out of their own pockets. -- What

he told me was that they were in need of money and Wl ether or

not they had to take out money from their own pockets I do not

know. I do not remember him telling me that.

But did you get the impression that there "'Jas a very (30)

serious need of money as far as YACM or YARM was co nc~rned?

--I ...

3 so ~:; 1'-1AT50DANE

Yes, according to ' what II<? was telling me.

Did you offer him any assistance in that you would approach

the Urban Resources Centre for instance? -- No, but what I know

is that there are many brganisations which they could approacll

for financial assistance and in order to get such assistance

they would also have to prove to those organisations what they

have achieved.

Didn't you think of seeking Mr Mothopeng's advice in this

regard? 50 as to assist this good organisation. -- But I think

the leaders of this organisation had to do that. (10)

Didn't you give this advice to your brother, accused No .

13, when he told you about the severity of the financial

situation? -- Well, I advised him to go to organisations and

ask for assistance. The Urban Resources Centre is also an

organisation he could go to as well.

Did you name the Urban Resources Centre when giving him

t hat advice? -- I may have mentioned the name but I do not

remember doing so.

Did you ever discuss the Young African Christian or

! Religious Movement with accused No. I? No, I do not (20)

remember but I think he once told me about what was intended.

We just discussed a youth organisation and that would be done

by Mr Moruri but Mr Moruri had told him that such an organisa­

tion has already been launched or is being launched in the

township and that he had advised Mr Moruri not to continue with

the launching of the organisation which they intended launching

seeing that there is already one that is being launched.

W Ii end ida c c use d No. 1 t e 11 you t hat '? vJ a s t hat i n 1 9 7 G

or 19757 1 do not remember but I think it was in 1975 when I

had gone to join them in the bulk buying scheme. ( :)0 )

Uid y o u hav e any furth e r disc u ss ion s with accused No. 1

as/ .• "

MATSOBAN~

as to the. need for this you t h organisation in Kagiso? -- Do you

mea n i n I 9 75 '?

Yes, when accused No. I told you about his intentions of

launching the youth organisation and that he had dropped those

plans. -- No, I do not remember him discussing this with me

again except when he was telling me that he had advised Mr

Moruri not to continue with the lauhching of this organisation

seeing that there is already one that is being launched. After

all their work was also community work.

So were there two discussions pertaining to this youth (10)

organisation between you and accused No. I? Did he in other

words first tell you that he wanted to launch this organisation

and then on a second occasion told you that he knew by then that

a youth o~ganisation had already been launched by somebody else?

-- He told me this when he was telling me what his co-wocker

had done and what he still intended doing and that he advised

his co-worker not to continue because somebody else had already

started launching this organisation.

Was there one discussion on this particular aspect or two

discussions? Are you able to remember? -- I cannot remember( ~ O)

but I would say this was discussed all at the same time, these

two issues and this was when he was telling me what I should do

in helping them.

Please repeat that. -- I say I cannot remember whether or

not this was discussed at one time because ht told me about all

this when I had gone to help them with the bulk buying scheme.

He may have told me all this dt the same time but I am saying it

under c orrection.

Now I want to conclude this matter. Am I correct when I

say that at one stage Mr Mothopehg saw the need for the (30)

e xist e nce of <, youth organisation in Kagiso? vJell, 'I do not

know/ •••

3 50 1 MATSOBANC

know whether he personally s aw this need or whether this was

Mr Moru~i's intention to have a youth organisation started in

Kagiso.

And then am I correct when I say that he was aware of the

existence of YACM or YARM in Kagiso? -- Well, according to what

he told me which is what was said to him by his community

worker, which is a youth movement that had been launched or

that was being launched which the community worker had intended

launching.

Do you know to which youth organisation he was (10)

referring to at that stage? The one that had already been

launched? I did not know which organisation he was referring

and/or which organisation they spoke of, the organisation

, which was being launch e d or which had been launched which also

resulted in Mr Mothopeng advising the community worker not to

continue with the launching of the organisation he intended

launching.

Didn't you then ask him whether this was perhaps YACM or

, YARM or the organisation that had been launched by your brother,

Mike Matsobane? -- No, I did not ask him. ( 20)

Didn't you tell him that your broth e r Mike was also of tIle

intention to launch a youth organisation? I cannot remember

when my brother told me of his intentions to launch a youth

I organisation, neither can I remember when this di~cussion .with

MrMothopeng was held, whether or not Mr Mothopeng told me about

I this organisation after my brother had told me of 11is intentions

to launch it or before I do not know.

But in a ny of the se two instances th e first thing th ~ t you

would l,avc liked to do was to tell Mr Mothopeng that your

brother Mike was also in this community service, that he ( 30 )

wa s also in the proce ss of launching a youth organisation.

Yes/ •••

3 50~ MATSOGANC

Yes, I would have told him , that.

Why didn't you tell him that? -- I do not know whether you

understand me well because I said I do not know when this dis­

cussion was between me and Mr Mothopeng, whether or not it was

before my brother had told me about his intentions to launch a

youth organisation. Gut I think I would have told him of my

brother's intentions if we had this discussion after my brother

had told me about his intentions.

Turning to your brother's erstwhile political connections,

I take it that you were aware of the fact that he had (10)

served a sentence on Robben Island. -- Yes.

And when did he come out of prison? I cannot clearly

! remember whether it was in 1967 or 19G8.

Did you know that he had been there for PAC? -- Yes, I

knew this afterwards.

Did he tell you? -- Yes.

When did h~ tell you that? -- I cannot remember whether he

told me this during school holidays when I had gone home or

after I had come back from school but when he was released I

I

was at School. (20)

So he told you that h e had been on Robben Island for PAC

shortly after his release from prison? -- It may be so.

Did he tell you what the PAC was or did you know from your

own knowledge? -- Heilid. not tell me what PAC was but he told

me that he was detained or arrested in connection with PAC.

When he told you that did you at that stage know what the

PAC was and what the PAC stood for? -- Yes, I knew PAC to be

a banned political organisation.

Prom your own knowledge or from what he had told you?

From my own knowledge. (30)

And did you ever ask accused No. 13 whether he ~ad changed

his / ...

3 509 MATSO BANE

his way s , wheth e r he s till h e lieved in the PAC or not ? -~ I

did not a s k him wh e th e r or not he h a d c ll a nge d hi s wa y s b ec au se

I kn e w PAC t o h a v e b ee n banned a nd he would not believe in it

aft e r its b a nning .

One c ould e a s ily b e b e li e ving in th e a im s o f an o r gani sa­

tion without a c tiv e ly p a rticipa ting in th e a c tivities of s uch

a n or g ani sa tion . I s n't th a t s o ? -- Ye s , th a t i s poss ible.

Didn't you e v e r bother to a s k him wh e ther h e h a d c ll a ng e d

from hi s old PAC wa y s? -- I did not .

Did y o u e v e r di s cu s s the PAC during your year s a s a (10)

s tud e nt at Turfloop, th e Univers ity of the North ? -- No.

De s pite the f act that you then starte d to show some st r ong

int e rest in s tud e nt . politi c s and c urre nt a f fair s? -- Yes , I

did not a s k him d es pite this fact .

Did y o u e v e r di scu ss , apart from as kin g him wh e th e r h e

s till b e li e v e d in PAC, did you e v e r di scu ss th e ac tiviti es o f

vari o us Bl ack n a t io n a li s t org a ni s ation s in So uth Afri ca with

accu s ed No. 13 ? -- No , I did not .

I f I ma y a s k, why not ? -- We ll , knowin g that thi s ma n

h a d b e e n in jail wh ere h ~ se rve d a n impri so nme nt sente nce ( 20 )

f or s u c h a thin g , I ju s t would kn o w that he wo uld no t b e

int e r es t e d i n the se thin gs a ny mo r e.

Ho w wo uld y o u kn o w th a t ? -- Beca u se th e poli ce a l so oft e n

came th e r e , h e mu s t h a v e bee n t o ld no t t o continue in activiti es

o f suc h organi sa ti o n s; he had a l s o sa id he h a d c h a ng e d hi s

wa y s.

Wh e n d i d h e say th a t ? Th a t he ha d c h a n ge d h is wa y s? --

He did no t sa y thi s t o me i n perso n but I o v erhe ar d it whil e

he was be in g aske d qu es tio n s by po li ce wh o vi s ite d him a t ho me.

Do y o u rea lly be li e v e tllat he wo uld have told th e ( 30 )

po li ce a ny thin g to th e c bntrary ? -- It i s poss ibl e.

S ASO/ • • •

3 5 IC) HATSO DANE:

SASO was a Bl ac k s oli( i;] rity move ment. - - Yes, I am

li s U >ning .

Is that so? Was th a t the position wh e n you we r e at

univer s ity ? -- Ye s .

And although it wa s c onfined to s tud e nts, it had b as i c ally

the s ame aims as the Pan Africani s t Con g r es s . - - I do not k now .

Didn't y ou h a v e int e r es t in th e hi s t or y o f your o wn p e opl e

s o as t o kn o w at l eas t s ome thing about the a ims a nd th e objec ts

of th ~ PAC? - - I did .

Now how can you s ay that you do not know about a ny (10 )

poss ibl e s imil a rity between the PAC a nd SASO? - - I do no t know

th e PAC. If you t e ll me that ther e wa s a s imilarity in it s a ims

and o bj e ct s with tho s e of SASO, I cannot di s pute that, I h a v e

to abide by what you say .

Yo u nee d not a bide by what I sa y . You we re aware, I

s u ppose y o u we re a s tud e nt o f politi cs wh e n y o u we r e a t

Tu r flo o p in the early s e venties . -- I did no t study politics.

But you wer e inte r es ted in s tudent po litics at l e a s t . --

Ye s .

And a lthough y o u we r e not studyin g po litics in a

formal sense of th e word, you h~d a v e ry s trong int e re s t in

curr e nt aff a irs. Ye s , curr e nt affai ~s whi c h af fec t e d the

s tud e nt s.

( 20 )

Toge ther with your f e llow stude nt s you were s e ac hingfo r

solution s of the different problems in South Afric a , rac ial

probl e ms . At s c hool ?

Univ e r s ity . -- No, I would not say so.

Th e n it a ppear s a s if you r int e r es t j.n s tude nt politi cs

a nd c u r r e nt affair s mu s t h a v e b ee n v e ry confin e d . -- Yis , it

a ppea r s s o . ( 30 )

You mu s t hav e known th a t acc u se d No. 13 , you r brbth er , h a d

b ee n/ • •• .

3 511 MATSOBANC

been on Robben Island together with certain prominent people

of the political scene in the early sixties. -- Yes.

People such as Nelson Mandela for instance. -- Yes.

still you say that you did not discuss Robben Island and

the PAC and . such organisations with your brother? - - Yes.

Because you had no interest whatsoever in that regard?

Is that what you say? -- Could you repeat the question?

Because you had no interest in that regard whatsoever .

That he was in Robben Island?

That he was there together with certain prominent (10)

politicians, to call them that way. And that he had been there

for reasons or for the reason that he was active in the PAC at

some or other stage. -- Yes.

Now to conclude this particular aspect: do yoti then say

that you only asked accused No. 13, your brother, after his

release why he had been at l~obben Island1 -- Yes, 1 could not

- I would not be able to ask him while he was there.

And apart from that you once overhead a discussion between

your brother and a policeman. -- Yes.

Where your brother told the policeman that he was not (20)

active in politics or the PAC any more. -- Yes.

Now apart from these two instances, you say that you had

no political discussions concerning PAC with your brother up to

the date of your arrest. Is that what you are saying? --Yes .

You joined or you were coopted onto the Kagiso Parents'

Association. Yes.

That is in August, 197 G? -- Yes, in ~bout that time.

Were you present at this meeting at the Kagi s o Community

Hall when these KAPA members were appointed? -- No, I do not

know about that meeting. (30)

Did you a ttend any KAPA meeting? -- Yes.

How/ •••

3 r- 'I "., J .. <

H 0 \rJ ma n y me e U . n CJ s did yo u a t t e n d ', - - I don G t k no \rJ \rJ he the r

it was 3 or 4 mee tings.

And a r e youmar~ied or were you married in 197 6? -- No.

I s uppo se that you wer e not a parent at that stage? -- Yes.

Were you in fact a parent? -- I wa s not a par e nt .

Wha t did you know or how did it corne about that you were

coop t ed o nto KAPA? In other words were you asked to be coopted,

or were you mer e ly told that you had bee n coop t ed or what was

the pos ition? -- There was a meeting in the community h al l and

it was in that mee ting that the USC members intended (10)

launching a parents' committee.

Were you present at that meeting ? -- I wa s present at

th at meeting.

Yes? -- The USC me mber s informed the people who had

attended that meeti ng about this intention; pare nt s a nd st ud e nts

had attended that meeting. This was t old to the peop l e tha t a

committ ee of thi s kind was being int e nded.. Th e inte nti o n was to

try a nd find o ut what the grievances of the c hildren were a nd

th at the committ ee would communi cate with the people as we ll

as with the stude nt s. After this a nn o un ceme nt the ( 20)

stude nt s announced th a t they had a lready c hose n people whom

th e y felt would represent them in th at regard. Th e stud e nt s

further sa id they were going to choose two more people and ask

that these people be included in that commi ttee which th ey had

chosen, th e parents' committee.

To interrupt you at this point, was this the parents'

committee of the UBC? No, it was not be ca u se the UBC members

were making the a nn ou ncemen t that they intended forming a

pare nt s ' committee. It was the n that the s tude nt s sa id they

a lr ead y h ad o ne. (30)

TIt/o rpople were to be c o-opted. Ye s ? -- Yes. I was

coopted / •••

3 5 1:)

c oopted as one of these two people.

THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH.

------~-----~-----------~----

f"1ATSOB ANC

3 5:1 4 1'1ATSOSANE

THE COURT RESUMES AT l4hl5 , UN THE 30th JANUARY, 1979 .

DANIEL MATSOSANC: still under oath:

FURTHEH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: We were last at

the KAPA meeting at the Kagiso Community Hall which you

attended. What interest did you have, why did you attend that

meeting? -- It was announced that there was going to be a

meeting there and that is the reason I attended .

Who ~nnounced it? I think it was the USC which sta~ted

the announcement. This was announced at school and this is

how it spread into the township.

KAPA was it already in existence at that stage? -~ Yes,

it was in existence.

(10)

Wasn't this a meeting where KAPA and SRC members were to

be introduced to the members of the Kagiso community? -- No .

Are you then referring to another meeting at the KClgiso

Community Hall? -- I am speaking of the meeting in which I was

coopted.

Was your brother accused No . 13 present at that meeting?

-- I do not know.

Were you when you went to that meeting, were you then ( 20)

aware of the fact that he was a senior member of KAPA? -- No,

I did not know he was, but I knew there was an organisation

chosen which 0as recently chosen .

And did you know that that organisation was the parents'

association? -- Yes, I knew.

And did you know that accused No . 13 h a d anything to do

with this parents' association? -- I only came to know of

the existence of a parents' c ommittee at a certain meeting .

Th a t is vJ lwre I heard this being mentioned .

And is that th e me e ting wh ere you wer e coopted onto ( 30)

that s pecifi c parent s ' assoc iatio n? -- Yes.

Thi s / •••

3 5 1 ~ i f"lATS013ANE

This parents' associat i on was it named KAPA? -- Yes.

Why did you allow yourself to be coopted by this parents'

association, not being a parent yours~lf? -- The students who

chose me knew that I was not a parent. I allowed myself to be

coopted because I had smaller children of my parents who were

attending school.

Why was this parent s ' association established in the first

place? -- To represent the school children and give a link

between the s chool children, parents and the authorities.

How did it happen that the students decided on you to (10 )

be a member of this parents' association, to represent them? -­

I do not know.

Did you have any contact with students at school ~t that

s tage? 8y school I a m referring to the more ~enior school,

Masupatsela. -- I had no contact with them.

vJere th e re ma ny other people at that particular me e \: ing

from whom th ey could chose particular representatives? -- Ye s.

Still you do not know why they chose you? -- Yes, I do

not know.

(20 ) Were you aware at that stage that there was another

parents' association in existence, name ly the Parents'

Assoc iation of the Urban Bantu Council': -- No, I did not knov.J

about that o ne.

Did you at any s tage b ecome aware of the existence of that

particular parents' association? -- What was said in the meeting

in the hall was that th e re is an intention to form a parents'

association.

Were y o u still bu s y with your studies at that stage when

yo u were e lrc Le d by the students? -- I wa s not studying in 197 6.

Let me think. No , I think I wa s s tudying in 1976. (30)

Because y es terday you told u s that you could nob get

your se lf/ •••

3 SI C MATSOBANS

yourself involved in politi c al activities bec ause of your

various academic and financial commitments. -- Yes, I said so .

Where did you get the time from to involve yourself in

the acti~ities of KAPA7 -- When I was asked to take up this

position, I found it difficult to refuse and besides the

situation was in such a manner that I could not •• (inaudi~le) ·

decide to stand alone or just be far from all that was happening.

I found it diffic ult to refuse.

BY THE COURT: You say tl'e situation was such? -- Yes, that I

could not just be indifferent. (10)

MR ACKERMANN: Yes? -- We had then also been advised to close

the evening classes which we were holding.

So then you had enough time to get involved in politics?

KAPA was not politics.

But ye s terday you told me that you had not - you did not

have any opportunity of getting involved in politics because of

the lack of time, the lack of money. -- Yes.

You told me that you would have liked to give a contribution

on the political field towards the freedom of the Black man.

Yes .

If only you had the .opportunity of doing so. -- Yes .

Why didn't you rnake use bf this opportunity of getting

.involved with an organisation such a s BPC of SASO? -- I was

helping KAPA.

But surely your assistance as far as KAPA was concerned

cannot be compared with participation in the activities of

SASO or BPC. Or would you say that your contribution towards

KAPA was of a political natur e ? -- No, it was not.

So tl, e n this qu es tion s till r e mains: why didn't you mak e

s ucl, a political contribution if you had the wish of doing (30)

s o? -- I did not make such contribution bec ause I have already

said/ •.•

J 5 ) '/ MATSOBAN E

said th a t I was he l pin g in KAPA and be s i des he l pin g i n KAPA

1 s t il l co n ti nu e d with my wor k .

To r.e turn to that par ti c ul ar meet in g a t Ka gi s o Comlnuni ty

Hall, did you address th e mee tin g in any way? -- Yes.

Did th e y ask you to address th e m or did you do so all by

yourse l f? -- I wa s as kin g a qu es ti o n .

Apar t f r om a sk in g a ques ti o n did yo u gi ve a speech there

on th a t occas ion ? -- No.

Did yo u at any s tag e at a ny mee ttng de live r a speec h in

the Kag i so Community Ha ll ? - - I would no t say I g ave a (10)

speec h but wh a t I di d i s answering quest i o ns that were bei ng

as ke d .

BY TH E COURT : You a ns were d? -- Ye s , what I did was to an s wer

ques ti o ns tha t we r e be in g a s ked . This was a t the . time wh e n th e

me mbers of KA PA we r e be ing introduce d t o th e community . I

th ought it necessary to a nswer ques ti o ns see in g th at I was

a l ready a membe r of KAPA.

Tha t i s no w a dif fe r e nt meeting, i s it ? -- Yes.

MR ACKe RMA NN : Wa s thi s a secon d mee t i ng a t th e Ka giso

Community Ha ll? -- Yes. ( 20)

Wh a t ty pe o f quest i o ns did yo u a nswer o n th at occas i o nJ -­

I ca nn o t exac tly . r eme mber th e ques ti o ns. Ma ny qu es ti ons were

put th ere a nd th e qu es ti o ns that I co uld a n s wer, I a n s wered .

All th e me mbers o f th e committee were a ns wer ing qu est i o ns .th e r e.

Did yo u a n s we r any qu es tions re latin g to l e g a l r e prese n­

t at i o n of a ny kind ? -- Yes , I thin k 1 d i d a ns wer s uc h a q ues ti o n .

Because o ne of the De fe nce witnesses, Mr Sompo ndo, h as

co nceded th <:)t a cer t ai n sta t e me nt he had made , .r~ X HI B IT AAAAA,

i s t he tr uth a nd at page 3 of thi s par t icul ar doc ume nt he say s ,

and I wa nt to hear f r om yo u wh e ther yo u h ave a ny comme n t ( 30 )

to pass :

"Th e / •••

3 5113

"The other me?e?ting whi_ch I attended

was held in the Kagiso Community Hall.

In this meeting Mr Matsobane brought

with him his parent committee and ~n

Indian lawyer. The chairman of the

me e ting was Mr Sejanamane, the principal

from Tshole?tsega Higher Primary School.

Mrs Mogojoe introduced to the people

the parents' committee. The members

are: Mrs Mogojoe, Mr Matsobane, Mr

Matsobane's younger brother, Mr

Sejanamane and Mr Boshun. Mr Matso­

bane's younger brother (and he pointed

out in court that by 'younger brother'

he referred to you) told the people

about the? lawyer. He said that the

lawyer was going to stand for people

who were arrested on the 17th June

riots and the riots that followed

those of the 16th and the 17th.

Mr Matsobane's younger brother said

that the lawyer did not want even a

c ent from the people in that he was

doing the job on a sympathetically

basis."

fvJ ATSODAN E:

(10)

Does this jog your memory'? Are you able to remember whether

you said something of this natur'e at that particular meeting?

Yes.

Did you s ay this? -- Yes, some of the questions that were

asked there' we re see ing that some children are in detention (30)

how are those kids going to be released and I said wh~t has to

bel •• ~

MATSOI3ANC ---- - -be done : is to find or to g0 t a lawyer to represent those

chi IdJ:-en.

BY THE COURT: Is that the whole sentence? I said that what

has to be done is find a lawyer for those children? -- Find a

lawyer to represent those children.

MR ACKEHMANN: But wasn't the lawyer present at that particular

meeting? -- I think this was before the arrival of the lawyer .

But did this lawyer arriv~ then at that particular

meeting? Did he attend part of that particular meeting?

Yes, he did come and then it was said this is the man (0)

with whom it will be negotiated to have him represent the

children.

Who was this lawyer? -- Mr Shun Chetty.

Did you have any negotiations with Mr Shun Chetty to be

able to say to these people that he would appear cost less for

these young people, free of charge? -- No, that he would

represent the children free of charge is a mistake.

£Y TH~ COURT: VJho made a mistake? Ml.~ Chetty or Mr Sompondo

or what do you mean? What was the mistake? -~ It has been said

by the Prosecutor Mr Chetty would represent the children (20)

free of charge and I think the person who made this mistake is

Mr Sornpondoo

MR ACKERMANN: But I read this portion of Mr Sompondo's state-

ment to you and you were quite in agreement with the contents

of this particular paragraph.

~m SKVJEYIYA: r'1'Lord, he said something like that was said by

me, not the e xact words.

I3Y THE COUHT: Yes, I think I have got it down here, I have

written what I call his answer to what you read out, Mr

Ackermann and then I underst00d him to tell us how it arose (30)

that s omething was said, but I hav e n't got him so fa~. That is

why/ •••

3 5 20 MATSOBAN~

why I asked whether that WilS the complete sentence. He said

some of the questions asked about children in detention, they

were asked about and the questions were, for example, who would

- how would tlley be r~leased and what would happen to them and

then he said, that is the witness said to them what had to be

done is to find a lawyer to represent those children. Then I

was told by the Interpreter that that was the entire sentence.

lie did not go on to say that I said that Chetty would do it

for nothing. That is my note anyway, it may be wrong. We

can play back the record. (10)

MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, I understood the position to be that I

read the portion to him and that he - when I asked him whether

this was the position he said yes.

BY THE COURT: Well you see you must realise a person says yes,

now he is thinking then he says now this is what happened.

That is how my note reads. I do not know, Mr Wilson, have you

got a note?

MR WILSON: That is my re~olle~tion, MILord.

BY THE COURT: You haven't got a note?

MR WILSON: I haven't got a note. (20)

BY THE COURT: Well, that is my feeling. You can look up the

record but my feeling was that he was now going tb - he said

yes, as one does, now let me tell you what happened. That is

why I asked specifically the Interpreter whether the sentence

I wrote down was the complete sentence and I was assured it was

and there was definitely nothing there where he went on to say

and I told them also that he would act for nothing. So now

he tells us that Sompondo made a mistake. Do you say that you

did not tell them that he would act for nothing? That is

Ch~tty. -- Yes, Sompondo made a mistake. (30)

BY MR ACKERMANN: Would you tell us then what did you in fact

ffiY/···

3 5 21 MATSO DAN E

s ay with reg a rd to th e servi~e s of Mr Chetty ?

BY THE COUJ~T: Are you still a bit unhappy abo ut my note?

MR ACKERMANN: No, if th e re i s anything whi c h can b e of any

use to the state I think we will make use of it in the c ourse

o f a rgument .

BY TH E COURT: We ll I do not know if th a t is really fair b e cause

you know a r ecord in the ab s enc e of th e at~os phere of the court ­

r oom the way a man said s omething can b e most mi s l e adin g.

Ther e i s ju s t the v e ry e x ampl e , y o u might find in th e r ecord

just the printed word 'yes' and I can only s ay if you (10 )

wer e then to argu e that he did say ye s , I agree th a t Sompondo

is right, I s a id th a t, it is not the impres sio n I obtained fr o m

his intimation and wh a t I saw of the witness.- I would like

that c l eared up now~

MR ACK ERMANN: M'Lord, pe rh a p s it wo uld b e a we lcome brea k at

t hi s s t age.

BY TJi E CO UR T : No , but I wa nt it b e c a u s e I am not go in g to s ay

it a gain a nd it ma y b e ne ce s sa ry a t a lat e r s tag e , but it is

no t rig ll t if yo u s ay th a t you a nd you r Se nio r a re goin g to r el y

upon s ome thing that i s writt e n in bl a ck a nd white whi c h ( 20)

may s up po rt you just b e c aus e it is wr itte n in b lac k and whit e

and I want to kn ow wh a t that i s n o w b ec au se i f it i s , it does

no t correc tl y r ef le c t th e ten o r o f hi s r e ply . I think it i s

ju s t as we ll i f y o u wo uld - y o u h a ve no objec tion , Mr S kwe yiya,

Mr Wil so n ?

MR WILSON: No , ' Mor d .

BY TH E COURT : Wo uld you ju s t have the p assa g e play e d b ack

fro m whe re y o u 'ende d . Yo u r ead out to him wh a t Som po nd o s ai d ,

it i s ex hi b i t?

MR ACKERM ANN: EXHIB I T AAAA A.

BY TliC CO URT: And y o u e nd e d up by sayin g th e l awyer, wo uld

s t a ndi •••

(30 )

r'1ATSOBAN l::

stand, VJould act for the pci' ople who wel~e arrested on the 16th

and 17th June and that the lawyer did not even want a cent,

something like that. It ended up there . All Counsel will then

please listen to this and then come and report to me in Cllambers

precisely what is disclosed .

THE COUWl' ADJOUltNS. THE CO UHT RESUMES .

DANIEL MATSOBANE: still under oath:

BY TilE COUI~T: You are satisf ied wi th my noles, are you,

Mr Ackermann, Mr Wilson?

MR WILSON: Yes, MILord.

MR ACKERMANN: Yes, MILord.

BY THE COURT: Yes, where were we?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKl::RMANN: VJas it said by

(10)

anybody at that par-ticular meeting that Mr Chetty would appear

free of charge? I do not remember anybody saying that .

By saying you do not r e member, is it possible that some­

thing of this nature was said at that particular meeting? --

No, I would be remeillbering that this was said if it had been

,said .

And you can think of no reason why Mr Sompondo must be (20)

under the wrong impression as far as this is concerned? -- No.

And you donol know of any comment lo pass as to the fact

that he corroborates Mr Sejanamane on this particular point? - -

No, I can advance no reason.

Did you have any dealings with Mr Chetty?

BY THl::COUWr: At that meeting'?

MI~ ACKERMANN: At that meeting. -- He was introduced at the

meeting a ,,; ~1r ChetLy, the person \-,Iith whom it w:uld be negotia-

ted for the representation of those children.

And who brought Mr Chetty to that meeting? -- I cannot (30)

remember who brought him to the fronl because we wer~ seated

at/ •••

I

3 5 2 J MATSOB/-I NC

at th e fr o nt . Wh e the r h e ~a s bro ught by a student or one of

the p a r e nt s I cann o t r e me mber.

You did not di s cus s thi s with Mike?

c ome to th a t me e ting?

Th a t Chetty would

Or th a t hi s se rvices would b e ma de avail a ble to th e

young s t e r s in th a t parti c ul a r in s tance ? - - No, I did no t

di scu ss it with him .

Did KAP A h a v e any int e r es t in th e c o urt a ppe a rances o f

the se youn gs t e r s? - - Ye s , it did .

Was n't KAPA es t a bli s h e d for th e ma i n pur po s e of

negotiating with th e a uthoriti es o n behalf of th e s tud e nt s?

Yes, it was .

(0)

How can you in c lude within the fram e work of its a c tiviti es

that KA PA h a d al s o a n int e r es t in c ourt appearan c e s o f s tud e nt s

during th e r i o t s? -- But it h a d to d o with th a t b ec au se KAPA

did th e ne go ti a ti o n s for the re l ease o f tho se c hildren wh o had

been arr e st e d . And if the c hildren who had b e en a rres t e d wer e

to b e c h arge d the n it would b e nece ssa ry for them t o be

r eprese nt e d . A pe r so n who kn e w law wo uld do that, th e repre-

se n ta ti o n . ( 20)

In you r po c k e tboo k I see that th e d a t e , th e 13th

Se pt e mbe r, that i s th e Mo nd a y, th e words ~ ppear:

"K PA (th a t i s a n a bbrevia tion)

c ourt a ppear ance Vuk a. "

' Was th ere a ny court ap pe a rance of a ny kind on th a t parti c ul ar

day ? - - I wo uld s ay y e s .

Who appea r e d in c ou r t? -- It wa s ment io n e d in the co urse

o f th e nego t ia t io n s th a t the c hild re n wh o wo uld b e r e l eased

wo ul d h a v e to b e re l ease d in co urt .

And did yo u ma n a ge to ob t a in th~ i r re l ease o n th a t ( 30 )

par t i c ul a r d ate , th e 13th Sep t e mber ? -- I t was sa id ~h a t some

wo uld/ •••

3 S ;" Ij r"iATSODANC

would b e r e l ease d on bail ~ nd mo s t of th e m wo uld b e r el eased

a nd giv e n into the c u s tody of KAPA and s om e sc ho o l princ i pa l s

who we r e prese nt . This happe ned because the c hi e f magistrate

was seen by KAPA before the court re s umed . This was also in

th e p rese nce of the princ ipa l s wh o we r e a l so there.

No w you s ay that wh e n you j o ine d th e r a nk s of KAPA y o u

did not kn o w o f a ny othe r p a r e nt s ' a ssoci a tion . Yes.

But th a t y o u kn o w that a t a c ert a in s tage th e peo pl e , o f

th ~ UBC int e nd e d to es t a bli s h a pa r e nt s ' a ssoc iati o n . - - Yes.

Wh o we r e th ese pe o pl e who wa nt e d to procee d with s u c h (10)

a pa r e nt s ' asso c i at i o n?-- Th e UBC members .

Mr Ram a ko by a? - - Mr Ram a koby a.

Ye s , was he o ne o f them ? - - Yes.

Mr Gob al Yes.

And [11 r r~ a b o r i f i ? - - Yes. Thou g h I am no t s ure wh e the r or

not he was p r ese nt .

Th ese peo pl e were a ll we ll r e spec ted me mbers o f th e Ka gi s o

c ommunity . - - Yes.

Why didn't y o u j o in the ir r a nk s if you want e d to r e prese nt

the s tud e nt s? -- It wa s s ugges t e d by th e parents in that ( 20)

meeting that a p a rents' assoc iati o n b e formed and th e n

• a su gges ti o n fr o m th e UBC me mbe r s c a me th a t a w6 rd fr o m th e

s tud e nt s in co nn ec ti o n with h aving a p a r e nts' ~ ssociation f o rme d

f ir s t come be for e it is form e d .

But you wanted t o s tat e it as a f act that wh e n you wer e co-·

o pt e d onto KAPA no p a~ents' associ a tion o f USC wa s in e xi s t e nce ?

-- I s ay a s f a r a s I kn o w.

Th a t I<. J\P A a t th a t s t a ge was the o nly o r ga ni sa tion,

pare n ts ' a s soc i at i o n for you t o join . I would j o in a ny

p a r e nt s ' associ a ti o n . to which I wo uld b e c oopt e d . (30)

De a lin g with a n e ntir e ly differ e nt a s pec t: do you know

Deborah/ • ••

~1ATSOBANC

Deborah Matshobah?-- Yes.

How well do you know her? -- I only know her as a person

who stays in the township. I know her parents' hom'e and her

parents as well. Her parents are well known in the township.

Are you aware of the fact that she had once been a student

at Ngoya, University of Zululand? -- What I knew was that she

was doing nursing, but not at Ngoya.

Do you know that at one stage she was a student in Zulu­

land'? -- Yes.

And that s~e was a member of SASO or had been a member (10

of SASO? -- I knew her to be a student in Zululand but I think

it was whilst she was doing her matric and thereafter I knew

her to be a member of SASO and it was while she was stud~ing witl

Unisa.

How did it come about that you knew her to be a member of

SAS01 Did you have any discussions with her? -- I came to know

that she was a member of SASO because this had appeared in the

newspaper that she was a member of SASO, that she was holding

a certain position in SASO and was employed at the offices of

SASO. If I am not making a mistake she was working for (20)

BPC but she was a member of SASO.

And when -did you learn that she was a member of SASO and

working for BPC? Was that after your return from Turfloop? --

Yes.

Did you see her in Kagiso? -- Yes, I used to see her.

From time to time? -- I used to see her but I would not

say from time to time.

Did you have any discussions with her of any nature? -- I

never had discussions with her, I was not used to her.

Did you greet each other when y6u saw each other? (30)

Yes.

Are/ •••

3 52(, f-'/\TSODANL::

Are you a ble to t e ll wh e th er s h e was aware of the fact

that you h ad been a s tudent a t Turfloop ? -- No, I do not know.

She may hav e k nown th at.

Do you s till maintain that you had nothing to do with

SASO or BPC after you had r e turn e d from Turfloop7 -- I sa id

I wa s not a me mbe r of DPC but I wa s a me mber of SASO.

Were you a me mber of SASO after you had returned from

Turfloop? I was a me mber in the sense that I wa s at univer -

si ty a nd a ll the s tude n~s a t univers ity were member s. I was

not a member because I had paid any subscription which (10)

would make me r e ma in a member eve n after having l ef t the

uni v e rsi ty .

So your membership of SASO terminated wh e n you return e d

from th e Univers ity of the No~th t o Kagiso in 19721 -- I say

yes because af t e r my return from the university what actually

h ap pe ned was o nl y to inform the parents of what h ad happe ned

at Turfl oop which resulted in our expul s ion .

Ne v e rth e le ss did you t e ll .. -- Not really expulsion, I

would say which resu lt ed in our being sent hom e from unive r s i ty.

I am say in g this becau se it h ad not reached the stage where ( ~ O )

ma ny or mo st of u s h ad to be expe lled . We still hope d t o go •

back to university because mos t of u s h ad not b ee n told that

. we h ad been expe ll e d .

Nevertheless you told accused No . 16 th a t you h ad been a

member of SASO. Is that correc t ? -- Yes, I think I did t e ll

him that .

Did you know a person or do y o u know a person Joseph

1<llOZiJ? -- Yes.

lJid you discus~) SASO or ope wi th him '! -- Yes.

Wh a t did you discuss with him ? -- He wanted to know ( 30 )

from me what SASO at the unive r sity is, what it was ~oing. This

h e / •••

3 ::; ~ ; JVIATSOBANL

he asked me because I wa s fr "om the univer s ity.

Did you discuss BPC with him "1 -- No, I d6 not remember

discussing BPC with him.

Do you know Hilda Mogorosi? -- Yes.

Did you discuss SASO or BPC with her? -- I discu ssed

SASO with her.

In wh at context': -- She was studying privately then and

she hoped to study e ither with Unisa or go to the university .

She wanted to know what SASO stands for when that time comes,

the time for her to study either with a university or to go (10 )

to a university.

Did you discuss BPC with her ',? -- No.

Didn't you ever think of approaching Debora Mat s hobah in

connection with SASO or BPe when you had see n her in the town­

ship?-- No.

Why not? You h a v e this intere s t in student politics. -­

Ye s, I had th e interes t in student politics but I have already

said I was s taying in the township a nd I was working.

But didn't Deborah Mat s hobah e ver approach you in this

regard? -- No . UO )

Because s he attempted to recruit accused No. 1 6 for BPe.

-- I do not know.

Didn't she ever try to recruit you for Bre or try a nd make

contact with you with regard to SASO or Bre? -- No, she did not

come to me.

Isn't the true position that you formed th e BPe branch

in Kagiso together with Gabri e l Magotla, Deborah Matshobah,

Hilda Mogorosi and Jo seph Khoza? -- No.

Do you know a person Pe tru s Motsau? -- No, I do not know

him. ( 1)

Are y ou s ure that you do not kn o w him or ever heard about

3 52 £3 tllATSOI3ANC

thi s person or is it necessary for me to remind you? -- You

may remind me.

Di~n't he appear in a terrori s t trial in Vereeniging? -­

No, I do not remember. A terrorist trial?

From time to time you had to visit an~e hospital. -- Yes.

And going there fro m Kagiso did you have to go through

Soweto or did you have to take any other route ? -- Whenever I

had afternbon appointments and would go to the hospital from

my place of e mployme nt I did not go to Kagiso and would not go

through Sowe to, btl t wh e n I ha d to go ther e in the mOl.-ning (10)

from Kagiso then I would go through Soweto.

I see that in your diary for 1976 that you had an~)point­

me nt togo to the st John.'s Sye Hospital on the morning of

Wedne sday, 16 th June. -- Yes .

I tak e it that on th a t particular morning you passed

throughSoweto because this was a morning appointment. -- Yes.

What did you see in Soweto on that particular occasion?

Was anything wrong when you passed through there? -- I only came

across many policemen and stude nt s on my return.

So you also r e turne d vi a Soweto after your a ppointme nt ? ( 20;

Yes.

Did yo u o n this ve ry morning visit acc use d No . 1 at his

hous e in Soweto? -- No .

Do you know a p~rson Toin e Egge nhuizen? -- Yes, I know

the per son .

When did you last see him? -- In N ove~ber.

197 -- 1976.

Do you k now wil e th e J:-- he i ss t i 11 in S out h A fr i c a'! - - Yes.

~Jh a t: do you k now? Ish est ill inS 0 u t h A f ric a 0 r not?

He i s no l o nger in South Afri ca. (30)

\v h y di d 11 e 1 e a v e Sou t h A f ri c Ll ? - - I don 0 t k n 0\'" .. He Iva s

de por t e d/ .••

f'lATSO B/IN[

depor t e d .

BY THE COU RT: Who i s thi s ma n ? - - I was wor king to ge the rwith

him .

What n a tion a li t y is he? -- I think he is a ,Holland e r .

MR ACKERMANN: Do yo u know th a t he i s a s up port e r o f th e AN C ,

Mr Egge nhui ze n ? -- No.

Did y o u h a v e a ny cont ac t with Mr Egg e nhui ze n s ince his

depar ture fr Om So uth Afric a? -- No .

Do y o u k no w wh e re h e we nt a ft er hi s d e par tur e7 -- He

we nt home.

Did y o u in te nd to mak e c ont act with him there ? -- Ye s .

Did y o u in f ac t mak e contact? - - No .

(10)

I s th a t why hi s nam e a nd a ddress a ppe a r s in y o ur poc k e t ­

book? -- Yes.

Yo u t o l d u s abo ut th e tr a v e llin g y o u h ave d o ne. Did th a t

o nl y i n c lu d e t ra v e l s in So uth Afr ica o r did y o u a l so h a v e t o

l eav e So uth Af ri c a a t time s? -- Ye s.

Wh e r e t o did yo u go ? - - To Leso th o a nd Bo t s wa n a.

The se t rav e l s were und er t a k e n d uririg th e c our se o f 197 6?

Yes. ( 20)

Was n' t i t commo n knowl edge at t h a t s t age in 197 6 that Bokwe

Ma funa w~s a live a nd we ll in Botsw a na ? -- I knew about thi s , I

h a d r ea d th is in a p~ per .

In 1 9 76 y o u were a wa r e o f the f ac t th a t Mr Bok we Ma fun a

f o und him se lf in Bo t s wa n a7 Could y o u r epea t the ques tio n ?

I n 1 9 76 you we r e aware o f the f ac t th ~ t Mr Bokwe Ma funa

was in Bo t s wa n a. -- I do not k now when I r ea d thi s ar ti c l e ,

wh e ther it was in 1 9 7 5 o r 1 9 76 but I came t o know th a t h e i s

in Botswa n a afte r reading about it in the pape r.

Yo u h a d some int e r es t in thi s ma tt e r becau s e h e was ( 30 )

a S ASO l eader' or Cl n e x-S AS O l eader. - - ~vh a t int e r es t d id I h ave?

Yo u/ •••

1'-1/\ TSOBAN l~

You were an ex-SASO momber. -- Yes, having been a member

of S/\SO does not necessarily say I would have an interest in

that person.

And you had an interest in student politics. -- Yes.

Now you visited Botswana in the course of 1976 on three

separate occasions. Is that correct? ~- Yes.

Did you ever make use of these opportunities to make

contact with Mr Mafuna in Botswana? No.

Why not? -- I did not need him.

Did you at that stage when you visited Botswana (10)

know that he was in Botswana after he had departed from the

Republic? What I knew was that he left the Republic for

Botswana. \,tJhether h.e stayed on in Botswana or not I did not

know.

And you did not even enquire and find out whether he was

there ? -- Yes, I did not.

Did you see any other SASO exiles in Botswana during these

three visit::;~' -- I cannot remember though I am not sure · that I

ever met anyone.

You did not meet Jeff Baqwa? -- No. (~O)

Why is it that you did not try and contact any of these

exiled persons? -- I did not need them.

Is that the only reason? -- Yes, when one wants to see a

person o r goes to see a person, then there must be a reason.

I had no reason to go and look for them.

Ybu did not want to find out from them how the struggle

for the liberation of the Black man was going on in Botswana

as far as South African Blacks were concerned? -- No.

Despite the fact that you had very good reason doing so.

-- I do not understand that question. (30)

Apart from the visit paid to you by Adam Kunupi; did you

have/ •••

flATSODIINE:

have any previous dealings ~Jith him? -- No ..

Can you think of any reason why Adam Kunupi came to you

for ~ssistance to take him across the border to Botswana? -- No,

I cannot.

You had some contact with accused No. 16 and as a member

of I<'APA I presume that you had quite some interest in what was

going on at ~1asupatsela High School.

BY TIlE couwr: I do not know what I have to write down there.

Can I just get the answer to the first part of the question?

Did you have some dealings with No. 16? -- Yes. ( ,0)

Can I just get clarity. Is that throughout 1976 or

starting 1975 or what is the position? -- I had contact with

him and this was ~hile I was a member of th~ football team to

which he belonged. It was in about 1975. After taking up

employment at Wilgespruit when I had a lot of work, 1 withdrew

from the football club and the only contact I still had there-

after with him \'Jas only vJhen we sOliletime~) met and \'Jould only

greet each other and when he and others would come to my home

to collect contributions from me whenever there were debts and

I would then contribute. (20) Ml\ ACl(CF\MANN:

But as--a member of KAPA you had quite some interest in

what was going on at Masupatsela. -- Yes.

Specially what was going on there after the riots started

on the 17th June? -- Yes.

And ho\" did you manage to keep i n,f onned as to t he pas i t ion

of the students at Masupatsela? -- The SRC members used to

report to us whenever ~e met.

Those are the members of the so-called old SRC? -- Yes.

I take it that they also told you that Adam Kunupi told

the students at Masupatsela that he Ilad been approached by (30)

the police to become an informer. -- No, that I do nat remember.

Didn't/ •••

fJJATSOBANE:

Did n ' t th e y t P. 11 Y IJ u U Ii s pi e c P. of i m po r t an tin for mat ion?

-- I do not remember them mentioning this in a me eting . They

may h ave mentioned it but I do not remember them mentioning it.

We ll, I am putting it to you that when Kunupi approached

you, you were well aware of the fact that he had been appr oached

by th e police to become an informer and that that was the reason

for turning him down . -- No, it is not s o, I did not even know

him .

Did you a s k him whether he had travel document s? -- Well,

I said he should go and make preparations by getting his (10)

dbcuments, the travel documents ready .

But did you neve r ask him if he had travel docOments? --

But when he came and asked me to take him to Botswana I said I

would take him and I also s aid he should in the meantime go a~

get his trave l docum e nts in order . It was the n that he told

me th a t he h a d no tr av e 1 doc ume n ts. Thi s sut' pri sed me a nd th p. n

I said: oh, don't you have a travel do c ume nt .

Mr Mik e Matsob ane, accused No . 13, told this Court that

this man Kunupi wa s ve ry de sperate . - - Yes , I heard him say that

Did yo u ge t a s imilar impr e s s i o n fr om this vi s it or ( 20)

two vi s it s pa id to you by Ad am Kunupi? - - Ye s , becau s e of what

he s a id .

He \v as pr e pa r e d to leave th e country ",!i thout any tr avel

docum e nt s. - - Ye s .

What did you do a s a con c erned KAPA membe r in order to

avoid him from doing suc h a thing? -- I told him that th e police

would not ju s t a rres t him for no rea s on e ven though he h ad bee n

arres ted be f o r e and wer e s ayin g the poli ce we re l ooking for

him, th e y would s till no t a rres t him f o r no r ea son .

despite th e fac t th a t he wa s s o a nx iou s t o l eave. (30)

Didn't you th i nk o f approac hing th e police in t~i s r e g a rd

and/ •••

3 53 J fvl,\ TSO BAN r:

a nd finding o ut wh e th er there were any charges pending? No.

In orde r t o se t this yo ung man' s mind at peace? I

thought what I had told him would bring peace to hi s mind.

But he had no assurance of any kind that this vJould be the

position. -- I felt that he unde~stoo d what I had told him,

thi s is t e lling him to stay a t hom e , so I cannot necessari ly

say that would give me the assurance of his mind having peace

after what I had told him.

Did you e ve r ask him why he had approached you to assist

him in such a n illegal oper a tion? -- Yes. (lo)

What did he reply? -- He said he felt th a t the poli ce would

co me again to detain 11im because they had de t a ined .him prior to

this. But I sa id to him from the fact that the police had

released him thi s proves th a t he had done no thing wr ong.

Did yo u as k him why he had come to you, Daniel Mat sobane,

in particular? -- Yes.

What did h e say? -- He said it is because he knew me as

a re s ide nt in the t ownship and he also knew that I was active

a t school, he had see n wh a t I had done at ~; c hool a nd he had

faith th a t I would he lp him. I the n said to him I c ould ( 20 )

s till not understand why he s hould pi c k on me to he lp him

on an affair s uch as this one even though he says he had seen

whaat I wa s doing or had done at school. I also said if he

had come wi th problems pertaining t o the school I \vould perhaps

be in a bc::U:er por-:; .Lt :i.o n to have hEdped him but seeing th a t he

had come with a request like this one, I ca nnot help him . I

did not e ven know of any method of helping a person with a

requc:Jt like the one .he had come to me with.

~iC CU URT ADJ OURN S.

3 534 MATSOBANE

THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 31s t JANUARY; 1979 .

DANIEL MATSOBANE: still under oath:

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you have a ny

discussion groups with young people on Sundays in Kagiso? - -

I do not remember holding any discussion groups with the youtho

In your diary on the 23rd May, 1976, a Sunday .

BY THE COURT: What is the exhibit number?

MR ACKERMANN:OOOOO. You have written there "youth meeting

10.30". Are you perhaps able to recall what meeting that was?

May I have a look at the diary again? (10)

Are you perhaps able to identify that meeting? - - Yes.

What type of meeting was that? - - A group of small childr~n

from a creche had visited Wilgespruit. They had not visited

but these are children at Wilgespruit .

Did you have any contact •• -- The staff members had to

go to the children, I would also have my turn to go to them .

Did you have any contact with YACM or YARM members?

Apart from accused No . 15 and 16 and accused No . 13 of course .

Yes, I did .

What type of contact was that? -- Though I cannot . (20)

very clearly remember but there was a time when Hippo Letseleha

had borrowed a projector at my place of employment . I had to

talk to them about a project at school . I had made an appoint­

ment with him to meet me at school .

BY THE COURT: What school? -- At Busile School .

MR ACKERMANN: Was that the only contact that you had apart

from attending their seminar in November, 19761 -- I think I

met him though I am not certain who it was .

Met who? -- Hippo and Mrs Raborifi . This was in connection

with a booking which had been made. It was to be confirmed (30)

and I think r had gone to them to get a confirmation of that

booking/ •••

3 5 3~) HATSOBANE

booking. Now I cannot remember whethe r o r not I met them or

anyone else again .

When were you supposed to get this confirmation for that

booking? -- Every booking is to be confirmed a month or so

before the date on which the visit will be paid though all

bookings are done in advance . The people who are on the

telephone are contacted over the telephone and whoever is not

on telephone if it be a known person then he must be contacted

in person .

This booking was it in connection with the YARM or (10)

YACM seminar in November, 1976? -- This was in 1976, not

necessarily in November . There had been a booking in June and

I think I had been to them to get a confirmation fo r that

.booking .

BY THE COURT: Is this the booking to hold a seminar? -- Yes .

Who made that booking or don't you know, did you have

nothing to do with it? -- I cannot remember the name who had

made th e booking, the name of the pe rson who had made the

booking . The name also appears in the book in which t his

booking was entered though it was not entered by me . (20)

Did you have nothing to do then with the original booking

for June? -- I did not have anything to do with th e booking

itself but after having seen it in the register, I went to

contact these people .

MR ACKERMANN: Do you know why this June seminar was cancelled?

No, I was not told why it was cancel l~d .

Did you never ask these people? - - I cannot remember but

I think Hippo had told me and I think he had said because of

the riots it is difficult to get these people together and go

out with them and seeing that the schools had been closed, (30)

they could also not contact the students .

Yesterday! •••

3 536 MATSOI3ANE

Yesterday you told us that Mr Moruri who was a community

worker for accused No.1, that he had told you about the youth

organisation that was to be established in Kagiso.

BY THE COURT: No, he said that No. 1 told him that they

proposed or had proposed establishing a youth organisation and

that Moruri was going to do this but that he, No . 1, had been

told by Moruri that there was alr.eady a youth organisation and

that is why they, the Urban Resources Centre g~ve up their idea .

I did not get the impression out of that piece of evidence,

there may be other pieces of evidence, that No . 18 spoke to (10)

Moruri himself.

MR ACKERMANN: When accused No . 1 told 'You this, was Moru r i

still a community worker at the URC? No.

BY THE COURT : He was not? -- He was no longer employed there .

By the Urban Resources Centre? Yes .

MR ACKERMANN : Are you perhaps able to say how long that was

after his resignation? -- I am not sure as to when this was but

I think it was after about a month . It was not long after he

had resigned from the URC .

And will you agree with me that Moruri resigned from (20)

the Urban Resources Centre in his capacity as community worker

on the 31st August, 1975? -- It is possible .

Now I want to read to you this particular passage f r om

EXHIBIT TTTT and I want to know whether you know anything about

, this, page 3 of the par.ticular exhibit and it is, as you know ,

the letter by accused No . 1 in his capacity as di r ector o f the

URC, under the heading:

"Youth Programme

In 1976 the program will be expanded to

include a wide range of activities such

as drama, arts and crafts, sport, music,

jazz/ •••

(30)

3 5 3 7 MATSOBANE

jazz and classical, youth clubs and

children's supervised play groups .

This has been facilitated by the fact

that two people from Kagiso community

have offered to assist in organising

the youth . One of them is the local

pastor, Reverend Bongaketsi of the

London Mission Church and the other is

a local layman, Mr M. Matsobane . "

Do you know anything of any assistance rendered or promised (10:

by accused No. 13 in this regard?

BY THE COURT: I think, Mr Interpreter, you can translate that

when it is in front of you . It is difficult to hold it in your

memory exactly the whole passage . Just show him , Mr Wilson,

the passage, would you? Can you read English, Mr Matsobane7

Yes .

Well, then you can see then exactly what the passage is .

No, I do no t know whether No . 13 made any promise in this

regard .

MR ACKERMANN : Neither accused No~ 13 nor accused No . 1 (20)

ever discussed that with you? -- No .

Do you know how it came about that Mike Matsobane was

approached to serve as a trustee on the trustees committee of

the URC? -- N6, I do not know .

Were you already at that stage when he started to serve

on this committee , were you already working together with

accused No . 1 for the URC7 -- I started helping accused No . 1

in 1975 but I do not know whether or not accused No . 13 had

already started serving as a trustee on the committee .

Did you accompany accused No . I when accused No . 1 (30)

gave accused No . 13 notices of meetings for the trustees

committee/ • ••

3 5JB MATSOBANE

committee? - - No.

Do you know whether accused No . 13 st~yed on as a membe r

of this trustees committee? -- I do not know . I did not even

know this trustees committee because I wa s working wi t h accused

No . I only .

On Monday afternoon I asked you whethe~ there was a BPC

branch in Kagiso and according to my note you replied "Not to

my knowledge; only a rumour that there was a branch; did not

have the opportunity to meet the people . " Yes .

Now what rumour did you hear in connection with the (10)

existence of this BPC branch? -- A rumour that there is a branch

for the BPC in Kagiso .

Who told you that? -- I have said it was a rumoillr . This

is because there was a rumour that there is a branch of the

BPC .

But this rumour must have originated somewhere . Where d i d

you first hear about it? -- I have said it was a rumour . This

is because I cannot say who said all this .

And it is only because of thefuct that you had no oppor­

tunity of meeting the people forming this BPC branch that (20)

! you did not join thi s branch . Is that correct? -- Because I

did not have time .

You say here because you did not have the opportunity to

! meet people . -- Yes .

You did not have the time to meet these people . Although

you wanted to become a member of the BPC branch . -- I did not

have time even though I would like to become a member of that

branch I did not have time .

But you would have liked to enquire from a BPC member or

anybody of that branch about the BPC activities in Kagiso . (30)

~- Could you repeat the question please?

That/ •• •

3 539 MATSOBANE

That you would have liked to enquire from the people o f

the BPC in Kagiso and find out more about the activities of

BPC in Kagiso. Yes, though I did not have time, if I had met

the members of that branch I would perhaps have asked them

about it. Let me put it this way: if I had time I would

perhaps have tried to contact these people, the members of that

branch and enquire from them what was happening and then I

would perhaps be in a position to contribute, but because I

did not have the time, even if I may have met them, it would be

of no use asking them what is happening. (10)

But wasn't it a matter of interest to you to at least know

what the extent of BPC activities in Kagiso was?

MR SKWEYIYA: M'Lord, may I at . this stage, up to now I have not

raised any objection to the question about BPC which has taken

, the greater portion of my Learned Friend's cross-examination of

this witness. M'Lord, with respect, it is my submission that

BPC has no relevance to the charges which the accused are

facing in this court and my Learned Friend has devoted a lot

of time .asking what BPC whether the witness or the accused wanted

to join BPC or not. It is my submission that that has no (20)

: relevance whatsoever to the charges.

MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, it is a question of credibility o f this

witness.

I BY THE COURT: Mr Skweyiya has objected to certain questions put

: in cross-examination concerning BPe. He says that they have

. no relevance to the charges. Mr Ackermann says that it ha~

relevance to credibility . As far as I am concerned, Mr

Ackermann can continue with this line of cross-examination. It

: has a relevance to the case as a whole and to credibility. I

am very loath, as I have indicated during my cross- (30)

examination of the state witnesses in any sense to curfail

cross-examination/~ ••

3 540 MATSOBAN~

cross- examination unless i t is perfectly clear that th e

cross- examination is either futile or harassing or something

of that nature . The objection is overruled.

MR ACKERMANN: Yesterday you told us that you had seen Debs

Matshobah in the township from time to time . -- I said I

sometimes saw her .

And you also told us that at that stage you had known that

she wa s employed by the BPC . -- Yes .

,-

Why didn't you approach her to find out more about BPC

activities, political activities in Kagiso1 -- As I have (10)

already said if I had time I would ask her wh a t was happening

first to be able to contribute whatever I can contribute, but

because I did not have the time it was useless asking her any-

thing about BPC activities, because even if I had asked her and

she had told me whatever she tells me and I do not contr i bute

thereafter, it would only cause me to have excuses why I do

not contribute.

So despite your strong feelings concerning the political

plight of the Black man in South Africa, you did not have time

for any political activity at al11 . -- Yes . Though I (20)

. can say what I did was involving mysel f at school to help the

Blacks to be educated because I thought if a Black man gets a

better education he can be in a better position to help himself .

But you found enough time to attend this meeting, the.

: Black Renaissance Convention in round about 1974 . - - Yes .

And if I may refer you to EXHIBIT NNNNN, that · the aims

. and objects of this convention that you attended set out there,

i first of all :

"In the attempt to achieve solidarity

the Black Renaissance Convention examines

in depth South Africa's political alternatives

in/ •• •

(30)

3 54 1 MATSOBANE

in matters of ideology and strategy

insofar as this urgent issue concerns

the B laC: k s • ,II

Yes, I have heard that .

Doesn't this reflect the political nature of this conven­

tion that you had attended? -- Yes, it does .

Did you find the time to attend this convention and to

indulge in its activities? Yes, that was in 1974 and it was

before my commitments with the school .

So it was only in 1974 that your program came to be (10)

so packed with commitments that you could not find the time

for political activities? -- I would like you to have this clear .

When I received the invitation to this Black Renaissance

Convention it was only written the Black Renaissance Convention

will be held at a certain place and it was not stated there

that this would be a political convention or meeting . It was

mentioned that different organisations have been invited to

that place .

But you added in your own handwriting "to further aims

and objects o f this convention . " -- When I was giving my (20)

evidence here on a question put by you I explained that those

two paragraphs were written by me after we had had

groups . This was at th e convention .

discussion

Will you please have a look at this particular document .

It appears to be a document that was drawn up for a Sharpvi l'l e

commemoration meeting . It was found in your possession . -- I

do not know this document .

Nevertheless I am going to read a fe~ short passage~ from

this document to you and ask you whether you agree with what

is s e tout here . On the first page in the preamble •• (30)

(intervenes)

MR/ •••

3 54 ? MATSOBANE

MR SKWEYIYA: M'Lord, with respect, there is no evidence that

this document was found in the witness's possession and the

witness has given a definite answer that he does not know

this document and I do not see the basis of my Learned Friend's

questions on this document now .

BY THE COURT: You can ask questions, you know, as to whether

a person agrees - I do not know what he is going to read out -

but he wants to read out something, it does not matter whether

he reads it out of a document or takes it out of his own brain .

He is entitled to ask a witness if he agrees with a (0)

certain postulate . I do not know what it relates to and what

the postulate is and what he is going to read out, but he is

certainly entitled to ask him whether he agrees with something .

MR ACKERMANN: The thi r d paragraph there:

"What we seek to illustrate is that the

incidents such a s the recent shooting of

Black people in Port Elizabeth are not

isolated but are part of a grand master

plan to keep us intimidated . Its history

is as long as the White people have been

in this land . "

The following paragraph:

"March 21st 1960 will be remembered ••• "

•• (intervenes)

, BY THE COURT: Are you going to ask him whether he a grees

with that first part?

MH ACKERMANN: Do you agree with that part?

BY THE COURT: What exhibit?

MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, I do not know if it can go in as an

(20)

exhibit . (30)

BY THE COURT: Well I am certainly not going to write down

everything/ •••

MATSOBANE

everything that you have read out.

MR ACKERMANN: Then it can go in on a preliminary basis.

MR WILSON: MILord, it can go in certainly as an exhibit my

Learned Friend is reading from.

BY THE COURT: That is all.

MR WILSON: That is all. Not as an exhibit found, merely as

a document he is reading from.

BY THE COURT: Yes, I said it is for convenience.

MR WILSON: That is why - I am supporting Your Lordship, and

then it can be referred to as document PPPPP paragraph 1, (10)

2 and so on •

. BY THE COURT: That is right, it is much easier then, EXHIBIT

PPPPP. That is the first paragraph that had been r.ead out.

Do you have it?

MR WILSON: We have it. The third paragraph.

·BY THE COURT: The third paragraph. Do you agree with that?

If I have to give my opinion of what is written here. There ~s

this portion that I do not understand where it reads:

"a grand maste r plan to keep us

intimidated."

I do not know who this us is.

You . ca~ accept that it refers to the Blacks. That is

obvious. -- Well then I shall say it is my opinion I will

(20)

. agree with what this paragraph says though I will not confine

this to Port Elizabeth as is written here. This is a general

experience, we as Blacks experiencing being assaulted, mis-.

handled and have to content ourselves with that only because it

is done by Whites,or people who have certain authorities like

the police.

MR ACKERMANN: Ver.y well, we proceed with the next para- (30)

graph:

"Marchi •••

3 544 MATSOBANE

"March 21st 1960 will be remembered by

all peace loving people as that day on

which unarmed Africans registering thei r

legitimate pr otest against unjust laws

were mowed down by the heavy fire of the

law and peacekeeping agencies of the

system . This is a sad day in the history

of our people, it is a sad day in the

histo r y of the world . It is a day we

used to commemorate with our heads bowed

in mourning . "

Do you agree with that? -- Yes, I agree with this .

Then I go down for the sake of brevity to the 7th para­

graph:

"Many more incidents which peculiarly

enough affect only Black people have

not been revealed or have been glibly

explained away as accidents . Here we

are thinking of our brothers and sis-

ters who have lost their lives on the

White man's farms, in his jails, in

his mines or in train accidents . We

as bereaved people find it hard to be

always convinced of the authenticity

of the explanations we receive . "

Yes, I have read this .

Do you agree with it? - - Yes .

"The White syste m gradually kills away

Black people, innocent Black people . "

(10)

(20)

Where is this? ( 30)

That the White or the system ~ays that these Black people

had / • ••

3 545 MATSOBANE

had lost their lives in accidents on farms or in jails or in

mines . -- I do not see that .

Well, I will read this part to you again .

MR WILSON: M'Lord, I think the witness thinks the questions

my learned Friend were putting in his own words are in fact

contained in the document .

BY THE COURT : The Prosecutor has asked a question paraphrasing

that paragraph, asking you, as far as he is concerned, para­

phrasing, it means the White system killed off the Blacks and

then calls it accidents, that is what he says it means . (10)

Now do you think that that is what it means and if so do you

think that that is s07 -- I cannot say . This is done by the

White system as you say .

MR ACKERMANN: Do you also have the same suspicions as to all

these deaths as set out in this particular document? -- If the

people who wrote this document knew all about these deaths as

mentioned in this document and were not satisfied with the

explanations given, I cannot argue with them on that . I also

find it difficult to say I agree or disagree with them where

they say unsatisfactory explanations were given . They (20)

may perhaps have been at the places where these things occurred .

Referring to the first two paragraphs •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Must I gather from that that your experience then

does not show one way or the other whether that is correct? Is

that what you are telling me? -- Yes .

MR ACKERMANN: And that when you read about accidents, train

disasters where Black people had been involved, you do not have

similar suspicions? -- I find it difficult to explain, but if I

may explain about the trains like the local trains in Johannes-

burg which are most of the time packed u¢, we sometimes (30)

pull off from the platform when people sometimeS get injured .

Some/ • • •

3 54 G MATSOBANE:

Some people are sometimes a r rested with allegations that they

~ere getting onto the train while it was in motion .

I have been referring to deaths depicted as accidents .

I find it difficult to give my opinion on the paragraphs you

choose to read from in this document because I do not know

what the whole idea behind the writing of this document ii .

If I am to say I agree w,ith a certain paragraph and then anothe r

I paragraph I do not agree with , this puts me in a difficult

position .

BY THE COURT: Do you mean you would like to read the whole (10)

of it to get it in context? -- If the Prosecutor would read all

the paragraphs so as to enable me to understand what is

actually contained here and what the idea is, I will perhaps be

in a be tter position to give my opinion .

Well that is why I said would you like an opportunity to

. ~~ ad the whole o f the document so you get each paragraph he

asks you about in a proper context? -- Yes .

Is it in English? -- It is .

You can understand English ? Yes .

Well if he has dif f iculty, you will assist him where (20)

he has difficulty, will you, Mr Interpreter? -- Yes, MILo r d .

Any objection if he reads the whole of it?

MR ACKERMANN : No, M'Lord .

THE COURT ADJOURNS . THE: COURT RESUMES .

DANIEL MATSOBANE : s till under oath :

FURTHER CROSS - EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN : Did yOU have t i me

to study this document? -- Ye s, I have read it .

What are you~ views on that document as a whole?

According to the contents of this document, it is a fact finding

paper and anything that is written as a fact is difficult (30)

to be disputed . It also appears there are quotations from

different/ •••

3 547 MATSOBANE

, different books and from ne wspapers. The titles of books

are also mentioned in this document . There is for instance a

book entitled 'Muriel Horell' or a book by Muriel Hdrell,

'Days of crisis in South Africa' . There are also citations

which are quotations from the same book from pages 11 and 12 .

Reference is also made to news from the newspaper, Daily News,

dated 1st April, 1960 and also to the Johannesburg Star,

dated 25th April, 1960 .

That is as far as the factual part of this p a per is con­

cerned . -- This paper quotes official sources and there is (10)

also a fixed reference entitled - something, it seems to be a

book - entitled ' Ikazi Nyezenyembezi 1929 Durban ' by A. W.

Champion . Reference is also made to the Natal Me rcury date d

3rd April, 1936 .

That is as far as the factual part of the pa per i s con­

cerne d . Do you agree with the Preamble, page I in other words?

-- This document as a whole is said to be a fact- finding paper .

I cannot say I agree with that and disagree with that, these

things are put here with facts .

But you did agree with paragraphs 3 and 4 when I read (20)

them out to you . -- Yes t this was because I had not read the

whole document in its whole context . You were reading from

particular paragraphs .

When I read paragraph 3 to you you were quick to point out

from your own personal knowledge other instances of suppression .

Yes, that is true .

You did not need to refer to the rest of this paper to

give me that answer . -- Yes .

Now you want to tell me that you - or do you now say that

you do agree with paragraphs 3 and 41 -- Yes, because this (30 )

is a fact - finding paper, I cannot dispute a fact .

00 / •• •

3 548 MATSOBANE

Do you want to tell me that despite these strong feelings

of yours as far as politics was concerned, as far as the

position of the Black man in this country was concerned, that

you did not do anything on the political field? -- I have al r eady

said my contribution was getting myself involved in the school

and the education of people . I did this despite the fact that

I had many commitments .

I want to refer you to the evidence of Dorcas Mosweu

where she said in her evidence- in- chief , that is on page

2 426 of Volume 60: (10)

"Then he ( that is you) started telling

me how he experienced or saw what happened

when a small child of about 13 years was

shot by the police . I was emotional about

what he said and felt pity for that child .

He further told us that he saw a White man

who was killed put in a dustbin . I was

again emotional about what happened to

that person being killed in a dustbin .

He said yes , like that child that one who

is also dead and the dustbin was the right

place for that person, he said . "

·1 have heard that .

BY THE COURT: Di d you say that? No .

MR ACKERMANN: In cross- examination by your Counsel of Miss

Mosweu it was put to her on page 2 452 of Volume 61 :

"Now getting back to the conversation

which you say took place on the 16th June

with accused No. 18 and some other students,

accused No . 18 says that he has no recollec- .

tion discussing about a White man in a

dustbin/ •••

(20)

(30 )

3 5119 MATSOBANE

dustbin . "

Is it so that you really do not recall that conve rs a t i on but

that it is possible that it did take place? -- This is wh a t

actually happened . There was a discussion about what had

happened in Soweto . I did not say all that to Dorcas Mosweu

and I do not remember anybody who took part in that conversa-

tion saying all that . I also did not see these incidents,

the incide nt of the child and of the man who was put i n a dust­

bin .

Is or was there any animosity between you and Miss (10)

Mosweu: No , not to my knowledge .

BY THE COURT : I am trying to trace her . Perh a ps the witness

can help me . How old is she?

MR WILSON : She is a young girl, she is about 26 . She is the

one who is still working there at st Ansgars .

MR ACKERMANN: You can think of no reason why she should come

here and give this evidehce7 Well, I cannot think of any

reason though I was very much used to her and we were often

together . Even after my detention she was b r ought t o me during

my detention, she was brought to me . She did not say all (20)

I that to me when she was brought to me .

Was there or i ~ there any animosity between you and Mr

Sejanamane? -~ Not to my knowledge .

BY THE COURT : Just before you go on . This Miss Moswe u she

was in one of your night classes,is that correct? Or one of

the night classes as it was called . Correct? -- Yes .

Now that was held in Kaglso in one of the schools, was it?

Yes -.

I have a recollection there was some talk about a cent r e

where these classes were held . Was there such a thing? (30)

Yes .

What/ • ••

3 550 MATSOBANE

What was that centre1 -- The Wilgespruit Fellowship Centre .

No, I do not want to confuse you now between the literacy

classes but th~ night classes . I am talking about the night

classes you gave, e xtra- curricular classes as it were, in one

of the schools or some place in Kagiso . -- Then it is perhaps

the study centre M'Lord is referring to .

Yes, what was that - I think it was probably called the

study centre . What was that study centre? Was it in a school

ground or in the premises of some school or what was it? -- It

was in a school .

Which school was that? -- Busile .

And she was a pupil in one of these night classes . ls

that correct? -~ She was a pupil but later became a teacher .

Yes, a teacher in her own right but what I mean is did

(10)

she attend one of the night classes or the clas ses that you used

to give? You personally. -- I do not understand because I

have already said she was at some stage a student .

Where? -- In Uingau where we were holding the night classes .

MR WILSON: When the school was still there . -- We were still

holding our night classes in Lingau when she was a student . (20)

BY THE COURT: Where did she go to school, her ordinary primary

and secondary schooling? Do you know where she went to school?

-~ I only know where she did her matric and her teacher's course .

Now that had , nothing to do with your night classes . -- Yes .

She still had to write a subject for matric . I t is that subject

that she was studying in th e night classes .

At Lingau? -- Yes .

Is that also in Kagiso district or area? -- It is in

Kagiso .

Is that a school? - - Yes, it is . (30)

Then did you start giving night classes first at Lingau?

-- / ...

Collection Number: AD2021 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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