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Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com Forums
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live4golf
But not swit.
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of
what you
are inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having
a perfect
golf swing. – BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
swit…hahahaha
Hello, 911? It’s Quagmire. Yeah, it’s caught in the window this
time.
Giggity, giggity, giggity, giggity!
My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,
Good luck with that one!
down and out…did ya get that?
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with
machine
testing….
live4golf
righto, so what are the different situations you would hit rather
than
swing (or swing rather than hit)? – short irons, drives,
punches….what
are the best ways to apply each type of swing…and are all
people
capable of being a swinger and a hitter?
Hello, 911? It’s Quagmire. Yeah, it’s caught in the window this
time.
Giggity, giggity, giggity, giggity!
Beautiful, thanks for the understandable explanation Lag and Guru.
I
have just realised, or more to the point, confirmed in my mind, I
am a
swinger. Makes life a whole lot easier to put into practice some of
the
things I have taken from these threads and also knowing what is not
for
me. As Guru would say, lightbulb has come on and the mist is
clearing.
I am sure it should have come on earlier, but I was missing the
switch.
The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it
right every time. Oh
I wish…..
KOC
Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth
and
effortless looking (don’t be fooled though)
Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind
of
thing
I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it
is
much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be
a
hitter for sure… Swinging can give you tremendous length
with
the proper application, and minimal overall body strength.
If you want to just flat out hit it long… swing.. If you want
to
rarely miss a fairway, hit
Hi Lag Pressure,
Welcome to Hell… I mean ISG… hahaha (only joking admin!)
I happen to agree with Serenty, I don’t doubt your
knowledge
but I think you have over generalised a tad.
Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class
myself
as primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to
fully
wind up.
Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the
other,
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(4 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs
and
golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and
swinging.
To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as
I
am extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.
Let me explain:
I personally have a long backswing wind up – slow and
controlled. At the beginning of the downswing I “pull―
the
club into what I would term a “hitting slot―. From here I
hit
hard with the right hand snapping the club through impact. For
me
on the way back is a “swing―, from halfway down point in
the downswing I am very aggressive and take advantage of
muscular strength to “hit― the ball.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)
As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off
the
tee, I think you will find that almost every long driver in the
world
would describe a strong “hitting― sensation through the
impact zone with the dominant trailing hand. By the same token
It
would be rare to find one though that doesn’t exhibit the
long
flowing backswing of a “swinger―.
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(5 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com
Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging
sensation in a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?
Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance
Champ.
Cliffmanley
hmmm now I am crying in my golf bag, getting my mouldy sangers
wet,
staining my wet weather gear, I’ve finally worked out that I
CAN’T
have just one swing, I have to hit my chips, I must hit my punches,
it’s
why I’ve been struggling from around 100m…..
aaahhhhhhhhhhgggggrrrr
I hate this forum, it teaches me stuff, now I gotta practice
again….
ahhh an excuse to practice… ohk that’s cool, feeling better now,
not so
depressed….
Now where’s that driving range, oh yeah, just where I left
it….
Cliff Manley
ahhh “consistency” the holy grail of golf….
“You’re no man! You’re a Bishop, for god’s Sakes…!”
Golf is Chess with Balls!!!
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(6 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
iseekgolfguru
Gotta love learning:) This place may shake a mind or two. We hope
in
the long run to a better understanding of swing (or hit) so that
you can
do it better more often.
KOC
Where is the Dart? Sir…You must say something on this matter.
You
preferred Hitting over Swinging when I first knew your name, but
lately
you said that you changed the ship captain.
Why?
Toolish
My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER
impact,
down and out…did ya get that?
Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with
machine testing….
down and out…did ya get that?
KOC
And Brain sometime said himself…. “I was dead wrong”....
I will find the clip Johnny said at TGC. Of course, Johnny might
be
dead wrong…
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(8 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
iseekgolfguru
Dart must be out for the day…..maybe even 9 holes? ?
Dart teaches you how to hit first, then swing. I would suggest
that
there is no preferred pattern as such, just what the individual is
more
physically capable of doing better one way than the other.
Stick man me can hit but without much strength, swinging for
distance
is a must. I can hit pretty straight over shorter distances though.
Just
got to make my mind up before I hit the ball what I am going to
do.
(Note to self: the brain needs to be engaged in that decision
making
process before walking up to the ball)
lagpressure
Well as far as the 5th accumulator goes, if anyone has ever
actually
built a plane to swing on, you find out quickly that the club does
not
ride on a perfect flat plane like in Hogan’s book. It would be
pretty
flat… and if you believe as I do that the true objective of the
swing is
to have the clubhead traveling faster after impact than before,
(true
pre stressed shaft flex to the ball and beyond) you are going to
have to
be applying some serious forces upon that shaft long after
impact..
This is where that final plane shift from elbow plane to shoulder
plane
takes place. I believe the secret lies here…
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(9 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com
I have one word.. Peter Senior… I saw it.. I was there, in the late
80’s
in Australia, no one hit it better than Peter Senior..not Norman,
not
Faldo, not O Grady….. and I believe Hogan did the same.
So after Accumulator #4 is spent, the body rotation, the left
hip
cleared, the right arm is extended, wrist rotation and uncocking
spent,
what is left to keep accelerating?
Think on these things..
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
lagpressure
The Iron Byron machine does it..
Mac O claims to do it..
I would say from my personal experience, and the use of high
speed
cameras, it is possible to hold the flex to the ball and beyond
without a
pork chop divot.
the secret 5th accumulator..
I think it parallels golf itself.. the closer you get to it, the
better you
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(10 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
will be..
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
KOC
Member since 2003
lag’: Playing the devils advocate here, the high speed shots of
late are
said to show the shaft does not stay stressed through impact.
I had discussions with Mr Wishon have these photos showing the
shafts
‘spent’ even with a snap release. If you have some stressed
ones
please throw them down the e-mail pipe. You can wear a mask if
you
wish:)
Homer threw everyone a clue with the Flat LEVEL and Vertical (ie
not
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(11 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
View Monitored Posts
uncocked) to keep the acceleration through impact. But you have
said
your 5th is post that point anyway.
Aussie_Bomber
“Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance
Champ.”
What is four barrel? (In simple terms and how is it
performed?)
Snap release – Is this accompanied by a “roll release”? Is snap
release
and roll release the same?
I had a bit of a play at the range today and found that I was
“block”
releasing have been getting pain on the Ulna side of my wrist.
I
implemented a “roll” release (from baseball days – Sorry Bio
forgotten
correct TGM terminolgy) and started hitting the hardest flying
draw.
My swing speed climbed into the 140’s a couple of times and
bottomed
out in the mid 130’s. I also had more penetration on my ball
flight
through the air. Control was much easier as I could am down the
right
and snap as hard as I could, ending down the left at worst.
Is this a product of “roll” releasing?
Would this from a mechanical viewpoint:
1. Increase clubhead speed?
2. Decrease backspin rate (due to clubhead rolling and imparting
right
to left spin) and produce a “hotter” flight
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(12 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE! | forums.iseekgolf.com
I feel as Guru says: Today felt like a light bulb moment…
lagpressure
I do believe what we are talking here is the holy grail of
golf.
Difficult and as ever elusive as the game itself.. From my own
swing
lab, using 10K shutter camera film I do have some shots of it
somewhere. I remember having seen the Iron Byron Machine do
it.
When I was in top form back in the late 80’s I felt I could do it
hitting
but not swinging and I have some video somewhere to demonstrate
it.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I did put it to the test, and was able
to take
home a win on the Canadian Tour, blades, persimmon, four rounds
in
the 60’s and 17 under, back when that actually meant something!
lol…
right around that time I had a round at Madera CC where I hit the
pin 4
times in a round from fairways. That was telling me I was on the
right
track.
Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft
will
release. Pictures of a swing might appear to have a delayed shaft
angle
or what most call lag, but the shaft itself may be telling a
different
story.
I for one am a lover of over acceleration from the top! lol..
never
throwing the club, but if my torso moves too fast from the top, and
I
put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it
makes
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(13 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
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holding the flex impossible. X shafts did wonders for me on days
like
this, as I would still be able to hit greens and keep the ball in
play, but
not knocking down pins.
Mac was big on firing #1 first, but really to just get the club
back down
from shoulder plane to elbow plane. I personally like that move a
lot,
and I used to practice starting down with zero hip turn
and zero shoulder turn then once the club was at the 3rd
parallel,
just rip it around with the body as fast as I could with a frozen
right
arm till the 4rth parallel. It’s a great way to swing if you can
master it
and your goal is to hit it dead straight all day. You have to
really feel
and develop what I called a cohesive body tension, where every
muscle
in the body is like one solid fiber. I used and applied that
concept on
tour, and it was really pressure proof as far as direction.
Controlling
distance was more of a challenge under the gun. Like Clampett,
I
hated the feeling of tension in the body when I was trying to
swing
with well oiled hinges… that’s why he left Doyle… and also why
I
eventually did too.. but I never left the golfing machine.. Doyle
at
least through the late 80’s only taught swinging. Mac was on the
other
side of the fence (hitting)
Swinging for me took a lot of practice, stretching, and all in all
my
body just had to feel really loose free and oily..
I couldn’t just step off the plane after a long flight, bad food,
and go
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(14 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
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to the course and start flushing shots right away. Each week was
like
having to re lube the machine and get it all oiled up for Thursday.
It
really wore me out over time.. the road is a whole other thing. I
saw a
lot of compact short swing hitters just step off the plane at shoot
65 in
a Tuesday round.. I was always quite envious of that until I
learned
how to do it myself.
That duel horizontal hinge is just way too much timing for me if I
am
on the road trying to make a living playing golf.
As a swinger, I could pure it…but if I was off, it was ugly, I
could just
spray it all over the course. When I switched over, I lost some
distance
but became a much better striker, and even to this day, I never hit
it
all over the course. I can take a year off golf and go out and
shoot par
or even better … I have done it..
I could never have done that the old way (swinging) I’m not
that
talented.
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
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(15 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
matt42s
Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft
will
release.
No – it’s quite a bit more complicated than that.
All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution.
Bio
Lag Pressure,
weclome to the forum, great post, I’m enjoying our stories
and
information, drop me a line bome77@ bigppond dot com,
would like to talk further
Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function
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(16 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
matt42s
I put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it
makes
holding the flex impossible
Holding the flex IS practically impossible. I don’t mean
practically in
the sense that it is almost impossible. I mean that the only
conditions
allowing the flex to be maintained are impractical. For example,
you
could “hold the flex” if the hands always moved at a higher speed
than
the clubhead. But that wouldn’t be particularly useful for hitting
a golf
shot, hence impractical.
Bio
Matt,
You are right, in this sense, but the hands are moving faster than
the
club head, up until release,
did some research on this we had a sensor on the hands and a
sensor
on the club head.
mass x velocity, hips 300 fps, upper bdoy doulbe in speed
600fps,hands
doubled again, hands were 1200 fps club before impact 1200frps
when
released 2400fps fps=frames per second.
in regards to physics and zero acceleration, lagpressure is
correct, we
measured this and has been proven, just before impact, hips,
upper
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(17 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
body,arms and hands decelerate and mearly completley stop,
wasn’t
for centrifugal force of the clubhead you would, it’s momentum of
the
clubhead that keeps you powering on
Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function
muntz
I’m curious about the sensations of swinging vs hitting. I have
a
suspicion I actually started my golfing life as a (clumsy) hitter
and have
been trying to transition into a swinger in the last 6 months
after
learning about flat left wrists and hinges and swivels.
I recall a session I had on the range with my old driver a few
years ago,
where I was taking a shorter than normal backswing and striking
the
ball with a hard, compact swing – and getting very long,
straight
results. Didn’t really understand what I was doing so I couldn’t
pull it
out very often. Also remember a few older golfers say “you hit
your
irons a long way considering you only swing with your arms.”
I think I unconsciously revert to a stiffer, hitting “biff” type of
action,
rather than the “oily fluid motion” of a swinger, when I’m on
the
course especially when I am trying to hit the ball hard.
Which
sabotages the rolling / hinging / swivelling action I’ve been
working on.
I guess to me the “swinging” swing feels weaker, like it can’t
generate
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(18 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
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the power I want i.e. I just instinctively want to “biff” the club
at the
ball. But if I’m reading this topic right, if the “swing” is
coordinated
correctly you can generate more power than a hitter with a
relatively
“lazy”, effortless feel. (?)
So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from? Is it a
sort of
fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the passive
arms
down until the club is released at the last moment with
educated
wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of some
of
the power?
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of
what you are
inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a
perfect golf swing.
– BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
Swinging only looks graceful, lazy or easy..
Doyle used to describe it to me as like a duck on the water..
it appears to be moving effortlessly across the lake, but
underwater
it is paddling really hard, you don’t see that..
You don’t get something for nothing in this game! lol
From a standpoint of feel and what swinging would feel like in my
body
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(19 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
Member since 2008
(remember the Golfing Machine says to learn feel from Mechanics,
not
the other way around) I would strive for maximum swing radius so
I
would float load or drag load the club back to the top, so that my
wrist
would not cock until the very end of my backswing, then I would
flex
my knees into a big “sitdown” bowlegged thing, this would start
the
change in direction, and I would hold 90 degree club shaft angle to
the
third parallel with a big gutty upper body rotation into this sit
down leg
squat.
Once there the left leg would straighten violently and the hips
would
clear fast and you just dump all that inertia onto the ball and
into the
ground with loosey goosey free flexible wrist and arms. The thing
that
was amazing about this, and so different is that after impact the
upper
arms would NOT stay packed and in tight to the body but would
just
move out away from the body with a full roll of the wrists, so free
and
spent feeling. You just have to trust that the forces that be
will
release the club into perfect alignment, and amazingly they do! ...
but
with this one disclosure … FREE FLEXIBLE HINGES WITH
A STEADY AND EVEN ACCELERATION on the way down.
So my argument as a practical player and tester of this is that yes
it
does work, as long as the brain sends oil to the joints! .. meaning
you
don’t tighten up, get nervous or feel any pressure out on the
course.
Confidence can go a long way for sure, but that ended for me in
the
Australian Open at Royal Melbourne in 1989 when I played some
very
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(20 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
fine golf on the toughest windiest fastest greens,
and the longest course I had ever played, a pair of 74’s made the
cut
easily and I was 16 back of Greg Norman’s 66-66 opening.
I just couldn’t wrap my brain around that… and in the years I was
down
there playing against the worlds greats at that time, Faldo,
Woosnam,
Colin Montgomery, and various American pros, this other guy
Peter
Senior whom no one over here knew of, but let me say that this
guy
would shoot a 64 every week at some point, and I don’t care how
hard
it blew or how fast the greens were, or how long it was, or tight
or
anything, and he was just drumming everyone then.
People bagged on him because of his swing, but let me tell you
the
truth, I have him on high speed camera, and no one ever looked
more
like Hogan from the top down past impact, and I have never seen
a
golfer hit the ball with such pressure before of since. And what
I
believe to be the 5th accumulator, he did it more than anyone
ever..
So to end my rant here… I knew my little swinging thing was not
going
to cut it in this league of crafty players, that were all hitters
and
dynamics was the name of the game..
I went home, and after talking to Mac when he was down under,
I
changed over to hitting, and gladly so.. within two years I was
hitting
the ball with much more force and control, and found myself in the
top
300 in the world after a win in Canada and some other good
finishes.
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(21 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
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That was as good as golf got for me, and the rest of my saga is a
whole
other story.. lol
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
Cliffmanley
OK, I start my backswing with my shoulders, turning until my
wrists
have no choice but to break. This is done totally without thought
now,
I’ve been doing it for a few years. Sometimes I will consciously
shorten
my backswing that is the only variation here, I use this with all
my
clubs including my putter.
If I have been playing regularly and practicing I then start the
down
motion with my hips, driving around, up and left, letting my
arms
follow when they have to, as my arms begin to follow I release
from
the top like a big coil spring. This results in one of two things
with my
driver, either I hit it straight and 300m + or if I don’t release
quite all
the way through then I will push right. Is this swinging or
hitting, it
sounds like swinging to me.
However, if I haven’t been playing much I leave the hip drive
until
much later in the swing, I am not sure if I start the swing with my
hips
here, I don’t feel like I do, it seems to just be a turn where
everything
sort of stays together and there is a much later release. I still
feel that
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I drive left and up with my hips. This means I still hit the ball
around
280-300m but I can work the ball easier, left or right at will.
This
sounds like I am hitting?
The two swings aren’t a lot different, just the release point isn’t
as
early in swing two.
Circumstances have kept me away from competitive golf for about
8
months so my game hasn’t really been tested, but I shoot in the
mid
70s most days without any real practice. Tension doesn’t enter
the
equation at the moment due to this lack of competition, but that
will
change i am sure. Mentally I feel stronger than I ever have,
my
capacity to relax is without question, and I do Pilates twice a day
so
the spring is oiled no doubt about that….
Cliff Manley
ahhh “consistency” the holy grail of golf….
“You’re no man! You’re a Bishop, for god’s Sakes…!”
Golf is Chess with Balls!!!
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(23 of 25)10/12/2009 4:42:38 PM
Bio
Lagpressure,
You mentioned sit down, I’m very happy to hear this,for years I
never
understood why doyle would say sit down,until I became a
biomechanist,hence I’m a T.G.M man all the way. BY sitting
creates
down force down through your feet, creates axis tilt and hip
tilt,
allows you to load hard and then fire your body as you have
mentioned, a misconception alot of people have is rotate hips
first,
and doesn’t allow time for loading correctly, instead of tilting
first
a tilt of hips or axis tilt or downward motion of the hands and
arms
can’t keep up with any type of rotation, This is why some many
people
OTT, if they learnt to sit first, there hips tilt and they get axis
tilt and
they can load properly. sitting on the down swing is the beginning
of
the kinectic chain, creates down force from the feet, hips tilts,
axis
tilts, hips rotate, then upper body rotates, arms and hand fires
into
impact. every thing double mass x times velocity.
hips 300frp,upper body 600frps,arms and hands 1200frps and club
head
2400frps fps=frames per second,
Lagpressure would like to talk more with you and learn some
more
I’m a T.G.M boy use biomechanics to teach T.G.M , helps me
give
students the feeling of the correct mechanics.
my email is bome77@bigpond dot com
Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function
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Lag’: the bowlegged thing I only ever heard the term specifically
used
by Bill Skelley who used to work with Lynn Blake before he headed
off
into the finance world. Did you ever run into him in your travels?
Bill
was a fellow who never did his TGM paperwork yet was a man
who
could describe in lay terms all the gear. I learned a heap from
him.
Enjoying the threat. Thanks for sharing as the golfing world
loves
hearing this sort of stuff and encourages them to keep
searching.
lagpressure
Cliffmanley
Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting
or
swinging,
Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting
area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower
position?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through
impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of
the
hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally
free and
flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and
a light
grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very
firm
grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first
and
most important elements of educated hands…
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
spike71
Hi Lagpressure,
Thank you for your phenomenal posts!!! It is great to have a
G.O.L.F.
thread to allow us a deeper look into precision and power. I can
see
you and the Dart having a couple of whiskeys and B.S.-ing into the
wee
hours! I was lucky enough to do that and left with more knowledge
my
brain could handle….still incubating :)
Your insights into Peter Senior’s skill should be heard World Wide.
I
loved watching him on T.V. and would have bent over backwards
to
see him live.One of the things that was interesting to me was how
he
stood up into his finish with his right side. His move looked to be
very
“body friendly”.
I too have switched to a hitting pattern and have thoughly enjoyed
its
accuracy and reliability. Drive Loading against the backswing
has
eliminated my concerns for good geometry that I relied on
during
your experience too?
Also, I am by no means an expert in TGM but absolutely believe in
its
principles. You mentioned a 5th Accumulator. Are you alluding to
the
bent right wrist?
lagpressure
Hi Guru,
I too never took the TGM exam, as I have never been an
official
teacher, but I did spend a lot of time on tour working with some of
the
guys that seemed interested in what I was doing. I think I was more
of
an early test subject for TGM. Grant Waite and I used to spend a
lot
time sharing ideas, Carlos Espinosa, and Vic Wilk who were all
fine
players and tour winners and we spent a lot of time together
shedding
concepts late into the night over a beer or two. I agree with most
of
what Mac says too, but I don’t agree with everything he says.
Mainly I
am not a fan of his abrupt plane shift from hands plane to
shoulder
plane, and then back down. It is certainly covered in TGM
components,
outward forces from the tremendous rotational speed he
generates,
but I will tell you that Hogan turned very fast and Peter Senior
even
faster, and their hands came in lower through impact.
Depending on shaft flex we know too that the shaft flattens the lie
of
the club some, maybe half a degree and maybe more with looser
shafts, so all the more reason to keep those hands in close and low
if
you are using radial acceleration and hitting. I am 6 ft tall and
have my
irons set at 1 degree flat. Even my old stuff.. I have 10 sets of
vintage
irons that I rotate between rounds. I just love all the different
feels of
some of those timeless blades. I am still all persimmon too, but
don’t
get me started on all that! lol
The closest thing to a flat plane I ever saw was Moe Norman. I
talked a
lot with Moe, played with Moe, and I probably have some of the
best
video footage of him from 1987 when he still ripped it pretty good.
Red
Deer CC in Alberta, all kinds of shots and angles all at 10K
shutter
frames..
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
lagpressure
Lynn Blake
Sounds all to familiar … Was he good friends with Bruce
Summerhayes?
I am sure we crossed paths if he was in the Doyle camp back in
the
early 80’s
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
jeffmann
Muntz
You wrote-: “So where should a swinger feel the power is coming
from?
Is it a sort of fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders
spinning the
passive arms down until the club is released at the last moment
with
educated wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a
source of
some of the power?”
I think that Homer Kelley adequately answered this question in
TGM.
He stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing (involving
the
loading and release of 3 power accumulators – numbers 4, 2 and
3
which have to be released in that specific order). Power
accumulator
number 4 (angle between the left arm and upper torso) is the source
of
most of the swing power in a swinger’s swing – as a flywheel
effect.
Homer Kelley stated that the downswing pivot action (flywheel
effect)
is primarily responsible for powering power accumulator number 4,
and
the faster the downswing pivot action the greater the swing power
(eg.
Tiger Woods swing). Power accumulator number 2 (angle between
the
left arm and clubshaft) is the second power accumulator to be
released
in a swinging action and its power is increased with a delayed
snap
release (where the hands turn around a small pulley in the
late
downswing – one really needs to understand Homer Kelley’s
“endless
belt” effect to really understand the pulley action). Power
accumulator release 3 is actually a transfer power action, and
it
provides the least amount of power in a swinging action.
Power accumulator number 1 (straightening of the angle between
the
right forearm and right arm at the right elbow joint) provides no
active
swing power in a swinging action. The reason is that the
centrifugal
action due to release of power accumulator number 2 is so
dominant
that the right forearm cannot produce additional swing power in
the
late downswing. The right triceps muscle contracts and straightens
the
right arm in the late downswing in a swinger, but that muscle
action
doesn’t cause the clubshaft to travel faster because the clubshaft
is
already traveling at maximum speed due to the super-efficient
release
of power accumulator number 2. If a swinger can actively use
power
accumulator number 1 in a late hit action (thereby becoming a
switter), then it suggests that his centrifugal action is too
slow/weak.
By contrast, in a hitter, power accumulator number 1 is the
major
source of swing power and it overrides any centrifugal action due
to
release of power accumulator number 2. In fact. the sequence
of
power release in a hitter is 1, 2, 3 – and the release force of
power
accumulator number 1 actively drives the release action of
power
accumulators number 2/3 as an unitary action (rather than the
sequential release of power accumulator number 2 and then 3).
A
hitter can use power accumulator number 4 to a certain degree,
but
there is a limit to the use of power accumulator number 4 in a
hitter’s
action because the hitter needs the right shoulder as a backstop to
hit
from – the hitter primarily uses the right shoulder as a launching
pad
for the right arm’s muscular throw-out action.
Jeff.
iseekgolfguru
Member since 2003
LB was in Homers second bunch of guys and works over East. Not
sure
Skelley ever worked with Ben though. GW worked with my original
TGM
mentor Chuck Evans a few years back.
Spike,
I love hitting too.. the best thing is I don’t have to practice at
all to
keep the ball on the course, and there have been times since
my
retirement where I went over a year without touching a club. One
year
I went out with my father, having not played in over a year, and I
shot
68 at Oak Creek CC in Sedona which is a decent test RT Jones
track.
Now I am not saying this to toot my horn here, but to make a
point…
there is absolutely no way I could have done that swinging with
rusty
hinges!
Now getting back to the 5th accumulator, what you were saying
about
Peter Senior and his finish.. that is it .. you nailed it.. it may
not look
conventional, but the dynamics of him just ripping the shaft back
up
the plane, from the lowest position to the highest did nothing but
keep
the forces on the shaft well after impact making every
humanly
possible effort the have the hands moving faster than the
clubhead,
and in doing so seeking the impossible holy grail of holding the
flex to
the ball, past or beyond.
Now whomever has been taking these High speed photos of shaft
flex
and saying it is not possible, do we have any of Peter from the
late
Show me that and I’ll be a believer..
But even if it is not possible to do as some have claimed, the
concept
of it is what I believe we all should be striving to do.
The closer you get to it, the better you will hit it.. I really
believe this…
assuming you are hitting of course…
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
iseekgolfguru
It would be cool to have the same sort of shots for Trevino, Palmer
and
maybe there are some around of Kenny Perry. It is a line of
thought
banned about with Tom W and I do not think he had any top
class
hitters to take snaps of.
Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger
to
hitter and why the choice?
Peter Senior and his finish.. Greg Norman…5th accumulator….
I am thinking Mr. Homer Kelly mentioned that even a well-
accomplished double barrel – utilize two accumulators can
play
great golf.
And as far as I remember (don’t have the book in hand), Power
accumulator is simply out-of line and in-line condition of
power
package, it should also relate with pressure point.
When you mentioned about the 5th one, you said: so after
Accumulator
#4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip cleared, the right arm
is
extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent, what is left to
keep
accelerating?
Do we have the 5th pressuer point? what is the 5th one that can be
out-
of line and in-line afterward?
Are you talking about the spine? Hip thrust?
p.s. The 1989 Australia Open Champ was Peter Senior and the
venue
was Kingston Heath GC not
Royal Melbourne GC
Cliffmanley
Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting
or
swinging,
Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the
hitting
area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower
position?
Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body
through
impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?
One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept
of
the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists
totally
free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with
stiff
wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught
me
how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this
to
be one of the first and most important elements of educated
hands…
No my arms don’t feel like noodles, but they do finish high, and
hard,
usually they pull back in front of my face from almost behind my
head.
I remember days when I have almost hit my self in the right ear
with
my club.
My arms do stay in tight to my body but no I don’t fight wrist
roll, not
usually anyway, there are times at the range when that happens
but
only very rarely.
No my finish is usually very high, my back swing is fairly high as
well,
and I do have a lot of shoulder turn, especially for a 48 year old,
at
least that’s what my kids tell me…. ;-)
I have a firm grip, I have never used a glove so it essential for
me to
have a firm grip, and my wrists are NEVER firm, they are always
loose.
I am a feel player always have been.
Cliff Manley
ahhh “consistency” the holy grail of golf….
“You’re no man! You’re a Bishop, for god’s Sakes…!”
Golf is Chess with Balls!!!
KOC
lagpressure
Cliff,
Sounds like you are swinging… without seeing the motion or
pics..
Does Guru have an opinion here?
KOC,
your are a hitter…
I’d love to see some back shots… to see how your right arm is
behaving on the way down..
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
Cliff sounds like a swinger.
KOCs photos there are of a hitter to my eye but its not KOC:)
Sumerhayes never met LB nor did LB actually meet BD until
2006.
muntz
They should put a sticky on this topic. lagpressure has started off
a
fantastic exchange of ideas, and I also started searching for
other
accumulator topics in the back catalogue.
Still interested in Guru’s Q:
Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from
swinger
to hitter and why the choice?
Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of
what you are
inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a
perfect golf swing.
– BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
Lagpressure,
Great stuff. I really enjoyed the 5th accumulator. Trust a
Chinaman
like KOC to spoil a good story.
What you describe I have been calling rhythm and teach it by
saying
keep your shirt buttons up with the club. The opposite to
quitting
which the golf swing is a “natural” for.
Thanks for expanding our worlds.
The hit/swing stuff is good. Most of us are doing these things and
don’t
know it. It sounds obvious but if we know what we are doing life
gets
easier.
I started with McHatton and Ben and was not happy till I
found
Kykendal and Norman and saw Drive Loading (stiff wristed
push).
Swinging is using a rope, hitting, like using a stick with stiff
wrists, it
depends on what your girlfriend likes the best. Sometimes a
clear
picture can help. You can do either hard or soft.
Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range
Toolish
down and out…did ya get that?
lagpressure
Finish swivel…
I don’t remember the specific component name of my finish
swivel.
Haven’t pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and
why.
I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after
impact,
so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth parallel.
Keeping
my upper arms packed hard against my body, I have spent #1, #2,
and
#3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I use the ground,
by
wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them together hard) firing
the
left knee into a straight position, and keeping the left wrist
partially
cocked still. I turn my torso as flat as I can so that the left
shoulder is
moving away from the ball as far as possible. The hands are firm
and
stiff. Once I am at the 4rth parallel.. I then fight the direction
of the
true impact plane (elbow plane) and then use the rotator cuff
muscles
in the shoulders to raise the upper arms off the body again pulling
the
club and shaft off of it’s very flat plane and use the #3 pressure
point,
but this time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull
the hole
thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and
shaft
moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand speed
just
past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my attempt or
futile
attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands beyond the ball.
I
actually leaned this technique in a martial arts class. In other
words, if
you are going to chop through a pile of bricks, you must
concentrate on
moving your hand past and beyond the point of impact. So whether
or
not I can hold the flex to the ball or not, it is truly my intent
to do so
with every swing of the club, from driver to putter.
Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to
it’s
maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond
perpendicular.
My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are slightly bent but
really I
try to finish with them as straight as possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try
not to
cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be about
45
degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the momentum
of
the club, will bring it down to below parallel, probably through
the
ears looking from behind, but I an resisting all of this.
The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on
my
pressure points right to the end… PRESSURE IS FEEL!
I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared
to a
swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead
speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball
control I
need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am playing a
game
of strategy, rather than a game of “rip and find”
By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag,
and
a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a
swing
that didn’t need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots under
pressure
when you need it most.. and when you are going up against the best
in
the game, you better be able to repeat it… if you want to have
any
chance…
To be honest, I wouldn’t be afraid to play anyone on an old
style
course that requires precise shot making… at least for one
round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using
persimmon
and blades.. but that is another topic..!
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
live4golf
lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? – or maybe you
have
said and I am too slow to pick it up???
Hello, 911? It’s Quagmire. Yeah, it’s caught in the window this
time.
Giggity, giggity, giggity, giggity!
Member since 2003
View Monitored Posts
“Parallels” Can you give us a “visual” as to what these refer too
to
build a clearer picture.
In your finish swivel motion do you keep a Flat Left Wrist or allow
it to
Bend? For hitters these are both options.
Pressure is indeed feel.
Awaress allows us to control the machine.
lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? – or maybe
you
have said and I am too slow to pick it up???
A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.
It is for Lagpressure to decide himself, but I believe we have
the
pleasure of getting years of knowledge from a professional who won
a
bit more than the Canadian Open. That may have been a little
insight,
but If i’m on track, there were a further 7 PGA wins you can add to
the
list.
As they would say in ‘Waynes World’ ” We are not worthy” but shit,
a
real pleasure to have you on board and the learning curve will
only
continue with your valued input.
The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it
right every time. Oh
I wish…..
4rth“Parallels―I guess lag is talking about the release
point….
Matin Hall used to use 5 times parallels to describe the club
parallel to
base plane line.
KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall
reference:)
http://www.sunbowl.org/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=124
click that link… look for the guy who shot the same score TIger
Woods
shot 10 years later when he took the title.
that would be me…
Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils
davego