1999 Testimony in court case by Chief Stephen Augustine - Fascinating historical information.

8/9/2019 1999 Testimony in court case by Chief Stephen Augustine - Fascinating historical information.

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DECEMBER 2, 1999

COURT OPENS (TIME: 0945 hours)

THE COURT Good morning.

ALL Good morning, Your Honour.

THE COURT Mr. Wildsmith.

MR. WILDSMITH The Defence calls to the stand Chief Stephen

Augustine.

CHIEF AUGUSTINE, sworn, testified as follows:

THE CLERK Please be seated and spell your full name?

A. Stephen, S-T-E-P-H-E-N. Augustine, A-U-G-U-S-T-I-N-E.

DIRECT EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS

MR. WILDSMITH Chief Augustine, would you just indicate to

the Court where you live and your present employment?

A. I live in Rupert in Quebec, about 30 miles outside of

Hull, and I work at the Canadian Museum of Civilization in

Hull.

Q. Let me show you Exhibit 44 that has been marked.

Could you identify what this is?

A. This is my resume.

EXHIBIT 44 [ENTERED] - RESUME OF CHIEF STEPHEN AUGUSTINE

Q. Did you prepare that?

A. Yes, I did.

Verbatim Inc. - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia - (902) 469-5734

Serving Atlantic Canada Since 1976

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Q. Let me show you Exhibit 17, volume 3, which under tab

15, document 15.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you indicate what that is?

A. That's a curriculum vitae.

Q. Have you prepared that as well?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Is your resume Exhibit 44 an updated version of the

same document?

A. Yes, it's an updated version with a change of address

and more detailed information about past employment and

public presentations.

MR. WILDSMITH I should indicate to Your Honour that I seek

to qualify Chief Augustine as an expert ethno-historian

able to give expert opinion evidence on the aboriginal

peoples. I have this on a piece of paper which I can give

to you in due course. And the aboriginal perspective on

aboriginal European relationships in eastern North America,

including the language, culture, oral traditions and oral

history of the Mi'kmaq Indians.

My friend, Mr. Clarke, I believe, is able to go part

way with respect to those qualifications. Maybe I should

just let him speak to that before I provide my examination



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of Chief Augustine, so that it may be a more restricted

basis as a result.

THE COURT That's fair enough.

MR. CLARKE Yes, Your Honour, there's just two positions

at this time that the Crown is in a position to address.

One is the ethno-historian as an expert ethno-historian.

We would take or request the Court to consider that issue.

And the other one is able to give expert opinion

evidence on the aboriginal peoples and the aboriginal

perspective on Mi'kmaq European relationships in eastern

North America, including the language, culture, oral

traditions and oral history of the Mi'kmaq Indians. That

would be the other clarification the Crown would be seeking

in cross, is rather than all aboriginal European

relationships in eastern North America, it be specific to

the Mi'kmaq/European relationships in eastern North

America. With the caveat that there has been extensive

evidence before the Court from a number of other witnesses

in relation to the Wawanki Confederacy, which includes, to

the Crown's understanding, some of the Eastern tribes, the

Abenaki, Penobscot, the Maliseet and Passamaquoddy. Our

understanding is that's not the majority of his evidence,

but we're concerned that his perspective on Mi'kmaq



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European relationships is where the qualifications should

lie rather than in the broader aboriginal/European

relationships in eastern North America.

MR. WILDSMITH Simply our point, and I will pursue it with

Chief Augustine, is that while 90-odd per cent of it is

going to be about the Mi'kmaq, the Mi'kmaq did have this

interactional relationship with other aboriginal peoples of

eastern North America and we do have documentation relating

to the state of the Penobscot dealing with the British, so

that, in our submissions, he should be able to speak to

that as well.

THE COURT I guess I understand what the issues are. So, go

ahead.

MR. WILDSMITH Maybe what I should do is give you this

proposed evidence guide, which does have the statement of

the qualification on it now.

THE COURT That's fair. It's helpful to have it.

MR. WILDSMITH So turning, Chief Augustine, to Exhibit 44,

can you tell us about your educational background?

A. On the second page, my most recent degree is in a

Masters of Art in Canadian Studies at Carleton University,

on which a thesis entitled "A Culturally Relevant Education

for Aboriginal Youth - Is There Room for A Middle Ground



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Accommodating Traditional Knowledge and Mainstream

Education?" This was successfully defended in December,

1998.

Prior to that, I attended one year for a qualifying

program in a Masters in History at the University of New

Brunswick. I did one semester of History in the Masters

level and I did not complete the program and I did not

write a thesis.

Prior to that, in 1986, I graduated from St. Thomas

University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Anthropology

and Political Science. Because those were my majors, I had

to do a qualifying year in a Masters for History program at

UNB.

In 1985, I attended a Native Law Program to prepare

myself to seek a degree in law, which I did not pursue

after completing the program.

Q. Very well. With respect to your Masters thesis and

the reference to traditional knowledge, with respect to

whose traditional knowledge?

A. This was mainly Mi'kmaq traditional knowledge but it

also reflected on other aboriginal examples in Canada and

North America of their traditional knowledge in areas of

technology using toboggans and building wigwams and



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structures and medicines and those other elements that are

integral to their cultures.

Q. Would that, in part, include Maliseet, Passamaquoddy,

Abenaki?

A. Yes.

Q. You indicate on here that you speak certain languages.

English, obviously, you are speaking at the moment.

A. Yes, I speak Mi'kmaq. I have spoken Mi'kmaq all my

life.

Q. And French?

A. And French, yes.

Q. You say you have spoken Mi'kmaq all of your life. Are

you a Mi'kmaq Indian?

A. I am a Mi'kmaq Indian, born on the Big Cove Reserve in

New Brunswick.

Q. Are you a status Indian as well?

A. I am a status Indian and I am also Captain on the

Mi'kmaq Band Council, representing Sigenigtog, the area

where I was born.

Q. Could you spell that Mi'kmaq word and district for the

record?

A. S-I-G-E-N-I-G-T-O-G.

Q. Are you a member of the Big Cove Band?



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A. Yes, I am a member of the Big Cove Band.

Q. Is that located in the general vicinity of

Richebouctou, New Brunswick?

A. Yes, it's in Kent County, and it's about seven miles

up the Richebouctou River.

Q. What about your knowledge of Maliseet or other

aboriginal languages?

A. I am, because the Maliseet language is very similar to

the Mi'kmaq language, there are a lot of root words, I

would imagine about 10 per cent of the words that the

Maliseet use are recognizable in our language.

Q. Do you regard yourself as a Maliseet speaker?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned that you were a member of the Mi'kmaq

Band Council.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you just explain what you meant by saying that you

were, I believe, a captain?

A. The late Grand Chief Donald Marshall, Senior, called

upon me in 1990 to visit him because he had information

that my family had been involved with the Grand Council in

the early 1900s and he wanted to find out from me what my

relationship was to that family that was participating on



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the Grand Council. And he mentioned a name and I said that

was my great-grandfather, and my grandfather, and then my

father before me, had not participated. So he said, "I

think you're supposed to be on the Mi'kmaq Grand Council as

a hereditary chief representing your district."

And so he made the appointment in 1990 and called me

to attend the Grand Council meeting in Chapel Island and I

began my work with the Grand Council as a captain.

Q. Would that mean that you're a hereditary chief?

A. Yes, I'm a direct descendant of the signer of the

treaty on March 10, 1760, by Michel Augustine, Chief Michel

Augustine, who was living on the Richebouctou River at the

time.

Q. Okay, we'll get into that in more detail but you're a

direct descendent of Michel Augustine?

A. Yes.

Q. And you mentioned the Grand Council, at least in its

modern day format. Could you just elaborate on what that

is and what you meant by representing one particular

district?

A. The Grand Council is made up of seven districts

throughout the Maritime Provinces from the Gaspe Peninsula,

representing one of the districts down as far as Tracadie



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River. Another district, Sigenigtog, represents -- I mean

expands down towards the mouth of the Saint John River,

down as far as Oxford/Springhill area in Nova Scotia. Then

we have Gesgapegoag, Sigenigtog, Mensigenigtog --

Q. Could you spell those for the record?

A. Starting with the Gaspe?

Q. Well, the ones that you have mentioned.

A. Gaspe is called Gesgapesgiag, G-E-S-G-A-P-E-G-I-A-G,

and it means the son gets lost over the horizon.

Sigenigtog, S-I-G-E-N-I-G-T-O-G. It's the remnants of what

is left over from an island drifting away. And M-E-N in

front of Sigenigtog, means what is left over when the land

tore itself off from the mainland, and it's been shortened

to Sigenigtog. Gespogoitg is G-E-S-P-O-G-O-I-T-G.

Q. Where is that?

A. Gespogoitg. That is in the Yarmouth, the southern,

southwestern part of Nova Scotia. Segebemagatig is the

area where the wild turnip grows. S-E-G-E-B-E-M-A-G-A-T-I-

G.

Q. Is that generally in the area of Shubenacdie?

A. Shubenacadie, around Truro, including Halifax and the

central part of Nova Scotia. Then we have Epegoitg, E-P-E-

G-O-I-T-G, which is Prince Edward Island, also including



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Pictou. Pigtogoalnei. P-I-G-T-O-G-O-A-L-N-E-I. Goalnei

means a harbour or a bay. Pictou Harbour or Pictou Bay.

That is all included in one district on the Grand Council

because it is believed at some point the mainland Nova

Scotia and New Brunswick was connected to Prince Edward

Island and this was only divided by a river. Eskegiag, the

six district, is the area around the Canso and it's spelled

E-S-K-E-G-I-A-G. It means pieces of rock or land, piecing

off the mainland and falling into the water and making a

loud splash. And then Omamagi is the Cape Breton area and

the Mi'kmaq Grand Council is made up of seven of these

districts.

Traditionally, there were two representatives from

each of the districts - a spiritual representative and more

or less one who was responsible for the well being, the

physical well being of the people in those particular

districts.

Q. Perhaps you could just spell Omamagi for the record.

A. O-M-A-M-A-G-I, Omamagi. So the Mi'kmaq Grand Council

is a pre-contact aboriginal Mi'kmaq political, spiritual,

social organization.

Q. In relation to the Grand Council today, rather than

historically, what kinds of functions or activities are



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they involved in and what role do you have, in particular?

A. My responsibility there is I represent the Sigenigtog

District on behalf of my people. I am responsible for

carrying the creation story, Tanwebegsulgtieg. T-A-N-W-E-

B-E-G-S-U-L-G-T-I-E-G. Meaning where we come from or where

our origins are from.

I also interpret the treaties -- I mean the wampum

belts, the treaties that were recorded on wampum belts for

the Grand Council. We have Charles Herney, who we call a

Putus, who is responsible for that function. P-U-T-U-S.

He is responsible for reading the wampum belts and relating

these stories to our people at our gatherings but right now

he is a very old man and he is slowly losing his memory.

So it's been given to me to take over those

responsibilities for the Grand Council.

Q. Okay, thank you. Your present position, you

indicated, is with the Canadian Museum of Civilization in

Hull.

A. Yes.

Q. Can you indicate what that position is and what your

duties are in that position?

A. My official title there is Native History Researcher,

but I have also, for a year, over a year now since October



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1st, 1998, I have been functioning and acting as -- and

taking over the responsibilities as Curator of Eastern

Maritime Ethnology.

Q. What does that mean, to be a Curator of Eastern

Maritime Ethnology?

A. I am responsible for the collections that have been

gathered in the museum for the last 100 years that are kept

there. These collections are from the eastern part of

North America that involve Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, Beothuk,

Passamaquoddy, and some Penobscot material.

Q. Are the Penobscot connected to the Abenaki?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. What kinds of materials are we speaking about?

A. Material culture, drums, snowshoes, canoes, things

that were collected by area ethnographers while they were

doing research for the museum or for other museums or

universities in the United States, and they had deposited

their collections to our museum at some point in the past.

Q. In terms of how the Museum of Civilization is

structured, where would you fit into the various divisions

or services within the museum?

A. Well, the museum itself has an executive -- They have

a board of directors, then we have an executive that



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ensures the functioning of the museum on an administrative

level and financial level. Then we have programs. We have

a Canadian Ethnology Services Division. This is where I

work. Then we have Canadian Archeological Survey. All the

archaeologists work there. We have a history department.

We have a folklore department. We have a postal museum and

a children's museum. These are all divisions that take

care of different sectors of the museum in the public side

and they help to maintain the collections in the museum as

well by doing research and publishing material and

programming exhibits.

Q. Can you indicate what the mandate or mission is of the

Ethnology Service that you work as part of?

A. The mandate of the Ethnology Services Division is to

mainly to maintain the collections. Manage and maintain

the collections that we have to ensure their secure

condition, to look after the conservation of those

materials, to ensure that the public have access to the

resources in the museum, as well as to conduct further

research to provide context to the materials that are in

our collections.

Q. Could you tell us about the research and the kinds of

materials that would provide context, as you've put it, to



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the physical objects that are contained in the museum?

A. The research would have to be involved in collecting

information about cultural groups that the material may

have been collected.

Q. Does that involve the group of five, I think,

aboriginal nations you spoke about?

A. Yes.

Q. Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Beothuk, and

Penobscot?

A. Yes, it would require a systematic literature research

at archives locally in New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island,

Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. And, on a national level,

with the Department of Indian Affairs and the National

Archives of Canada.

Q. So historical documents would be part of those

collections, would they?

A. Yes, we have an archival section as well in our museum

that has manuscript collections that were at the time of --

Some of them date back as far as the middle of 1600s, notes

by missionaries that have been deposited at our museum

instead of at the national archives.

Q. Are you involved in the collection and the analysis of

that material?



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A. Yes, it's part of my responsibility to accession

material that comes in. It's part of my responsibility to

make available to the public, to the researchers, access to

the resources or to the sources.

Q. Does it involve the interpretation of that material?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Okay. How long have you worked with the Museum of

Civilization?

A. I have worked there full-time since three years,

October, whatever, 1996. I had worked there earlier on a

contract basis.

Q. Could you explain that?

A. I was involved in providing an update to a list of

aboriginal communities across Canada. Communities like

Restigouche, who have changed their name to Listugutj. L-

I-S-T-U-G-U-T-J. A lot of aboriginal communities across

Canada have changed their names back to their aboriginal

names and part of that task was to update that list,

because we had names that were like Fort George or St.

George or Coverdale that were not indigenous names to the

communities. So that involved updating and contacting all

the First Nations communities across Canada and aboriginal

organizations.



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Q. That was part of what you did under contract?

A. Yes.

Q. If we turn to the third page of Exhibit 44, your

resume, we see the title "Publications."

A. Yes.

Q. Can you, and bearing in mind that the Crown has

conceded your expertise with respect to the Mi'kmaq, could

you go through these publications and indicate what things

might be relevant to your expertise with respect to

Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, or Abenaki?

A. The first publication, "Traditional Indigenous

Knowledge and Preservation of Cultural Property," this

involved identifying cultural objects that were held in our

museum as well as in other museums across Canada and

identifying which ones were sacred and which ones were not

sacred objects and how these objects should be handled.

This involved having to provide source material on Mi'kmaq,

Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, Beothuk, and Maliseet.

Identifying these materials as which ones would be sacred

and which ones would not be.

Q. Would that involve looking at something about the

culture of those aboriginal groups to make that

determination?



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A. Yes, I was utilizing the Mi'kmaq Creation Story in

order to indicate how these objects were interrelated in an

aspect of a spiritual ceremony.

Q. Okay.

A. In 1998, "What Have the River Systems Provided to the

Mi'kmaq?" It was a presentation made to the National Parks

at Kouchibouguac.

Q. We notice that the title refers only to the Mi'kmaq.

A. Yes.

Q. My question to you: Is there anything we should be

noting in that that might relate to the other aboriginal

groups besides the Mi'kmaq?

A. I was using the Richiboucto River as an example, but I

would say that this example would apply to most rivers in

the east coast of North America because there are the same

animals, birds, plants, and trees and conditions that the

aboriginal people would have followed the river system as

their main travel routes and relied on the same kind of

resources.

Q. So would that include the Saint John River or the St.

Croix River or Penobscot River?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Anything further, not necessarily in that



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article, but focusing in on things that would be germane to

the other aboriginal groups that you may be saying

something about in your evidence?

A. This one, this paper involved explaining about what

the river systems would have provided to the Indians as

sort of like a travel route, a source of food, medicine,

clothing, shelter, all the elements that are necessary to

survive or derived by the river or with the use of the

river, and the Mi'kmaq people would not have survived quite

well without the use of the river as travel routes.

Q. Anything else in the publications that might be

germane to Penobscot, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy?

A. "The Mi'kmaq History of Big Cove" dealt with the

Creation Story and the relationships, the treaty

relationships between neighbouring groups like Maliseet,

Passamaquoddy, Penobscot prior to contact and then I went

into more detail about the establishment of the Richiboucto

Reserve and then its reduction of 46,000 acres, I guess, in

a matter of 75 years.

Q. So you're saying that to look at Big Cove, you were

looking at the wide relationship that the Mi'kmaq had with

neighbouring aboriginal peoples?

A. During the treaty period and the colonial period prior



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to establishment of Nova Scotia, as well as after, I mean

prior to the establishment of New Brunswick as well as soon

after, the way the lands were being granted in New

Brunswick, it involved granting lands to Maliseet as well

as those that lived in Canoose River in southern part of

New Brunswick on the Passamaquoddy area.

Q. Other things under publications that would be germane

to Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, Penobscot?

A. No, the other cases are more contemporary issues

involving suicides, social, land, and economy for the Royal

Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.

Q. Okay.

A. In 1991, "The Introductory Guide to Mi'kmaq Words and

Phrases" involved words about trade and interaction with

tribes, ceremonies, and we went into detail about

explaining pipe ceremonies and sweat lodge and those words

that are attached to those kind of activities.

Q. Okay, moving on to thesis supervision, was there

anything in that MSC thesis that you were an external

examiner on that would be related to Maliseet Passamaquoddy

Penobscot?

A. More in a general context of approaching indigenous

communities, approaching indigenous elders, and in an



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example, this Masters degree student was going up to Yukon,

Old Crow, to study the porcupine caribou herd, and I was

appointed as her supervisor or asked to supervise on the

indigenous context of her thesis. And I was advising her

on how to approach elders in the community and this

approach needed to have some -- One had to have knowledge

of elders and attitudes and activities of elders and how

they would respond and how they would be -- how interviews

would be conducted and an interrelationship could be

established to minimize any conflicting situations.

Q. Where was this particular aboriginal group located?

A. In the Yukon Territories up in Old Crow, I mean, yes,

in Old Crow, Yukon.

Q. Okay. Moving on to the statement at the bottom of

this page about expert testimony, you have been qualified

in the past to give expert testimony, have you?

A. Yes, I have. And this part here that I had written, I

had no access to the court text or court document and I was

basing it on what I assumed I had spoken on and I don't

think that this is a proper wording for my qualification.

Q. Is this what you understood that you did, in fact,

speak to?

A. Yes.



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Q. And do you now know or do you -- are you able to say

whether you were qualified in that case to speak about

Maliseet, Abenaki, Passamaquoddy as well as Mi'kmaq?

A. I now know, but in my last testimony in New Brunswick,

the Crown made a correction to that line and I don't

exactly know the wording still to that because I was

supposed to be given a part of that transcript, but I

didn't -- I have not received it, so I am unable to

identify the exact phrasing of that.

Q. Is it your understanding that you were able to speak

about the other aboriginal peoples that were listed here on

your resume?

A. I was able to speak and give my opinion about those

relationships on those -- about those tribes, yes.

Q. All right. And that was in a case indicated here as

Josh Bernard. Was there a second case that you were also

qualified to give expert evidence in?

A. There was a second case involving Francis, I believe,

Harvey Francis. R v. Francis and others.

Q. When were you qualified in that case?

A. I believe in September.

Q. Of this year, 1999?

A. Yes.



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Q. Subsequent to the Bernard case?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now you have a lot of information about your

work experience in the subsequent pages here. Can you

isolate from this list things that might relate to the

Penobscot, the Abenaki, the Passamaquoddy, the Maliseet,

and things that might relate to archival work?

A. In 1991 to '93 I worked for the Big Cove Band Council

as their land claims advisor and it involved doing

extensive research at the Provincial Archives in

Fredericton and in Prince Edward Island as well as in Nova

Scotia to look for documentary material relating to the Big

Cove land claim.

Q. And would you then be making copies of that

documentation and keeping it for the purposes of analysis?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did that from January of '91 to October of '93?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Other things related to original

historical work in archives or published sources?

A. In 1988 I was operating a research consulting services

dealing with archival research for First Nations

communities in New Brunswick. I provide research



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information from archival sources to their communities to

do profiles.

Q. Does that mean you went into the Archives and did the

research, found the documents and brought them back out?

A. Some of the documentation I had already, yes, and some

I found during the time that I did provide the service.

Q. Your CV just refers to 1988 here. Is there an end

date to that or how should be understand that?

A. Just for that year, yes.

Q. Okay.

A. 1986 St. Thomas University Challenge '86 Project, I

was a student archivist working at the Provincial Archives

in Fredericton at the University of New Brunswick

researching and identifying and photocopying and organizing

Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, and Passamaquoddy documentation at the

Provincial Archives and cataloguing that in a chronological

order.

Q. Okay.

A. Most of this information was passed on to history

professors, William Hamilton and William Spray of St.

Thomas University.

Q. And who are they?

A. William Spray at the time was vice president of St.



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Thomas University. He's a history professor at St. Thomas

University. William B. Hamilton, he was at the Mi'kmaq-

Maliseet Institute. He was also a history professor at UNB.

Q. What was the Mi'kmaq-Maliseet Institute?

A. Mi'kmaq-Maliseet Institute was established by an

agreement between St. Thomas University and UNB to focus on

specializing research and education for aboriginal

communities in New Brunswick. And these two involved

Mi'kmaq and Maliseet groups.

Q. Okay. And what else do we find here?

A. In April, 1978, to September I worked for Dr. Charles

Akerman, Department of Anthropology, University of New

Brunswick and Fredericton as an archival researcher. I was

providing research. It was more or less a verification of

documentation whereby the Indians in Maine had submitted a

claim to the State of Maine. And the Attorney General for

the State of Maine, Joseph Brennan, had hired under

contract Dr. Charles Akerman to verify this research, and

part of my responsibility was to do the actual archival

work to find the sources. And to see also if the Province

of New Brunswick had at some time in the past accepted

responsibility for the Passamaquoddy tribe in New Brunswick.

Q. Okay. So that seems to have taken you into the New



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Brunswick Provincial Archives and the Maine State Archives

both in Augusta and Orono, Maine?

A. Yes.

Q. Other things on your CV related to Maliseet,

Passamaquoddy, Penobscot, Abenaki, or archival research?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And we have a section here on boards and

communities that you have participated on. Is there

anything in there related to the same issues of the other

aboriginal groups?

A. No, I --

Q. There's a reference in here to the Premier's Round

Table on Environment and Economy.

A. Yes.

Q. What's that?

A. The Premier's Round Table on Environment and Economy

was established in 1973 and once the responsibility was

given to the public, I was invited by premier, then Premier

Frank MacKenna to sit on the Round Table to represent the

aboriginal people in New Brunswick, that would involve

Mi'kmaq and Maliseet representation on the Round Table.

And the Round Table itself is more or less concerned

with environmental issues and the economy of the province.



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In that context, companies who wanted to develop the

natural resources in the province were somewhat cognizant

of environmental factors and how to minimize these impacts

on the environment.

Q. Thank you. And you're still a member of that, are you?

A. I'm still a member, yes. It's been renewed twice

already.

Q. And just in general in your activities, whether they

are personal or professional or otherwise, have you been in

contact with people who are Maliseet and Passamaquoddy?

A. Yes, in fact, I have relatives living in Indian Island

in Old Town and in --

Q. Where is that?

A. In Old Town, Maine, just outside of Orono north of

Bangor on the Penobscot River. There's an island, it's

called Indian.

Q. And you have relatives there?

A. I have relatives that live there that have

intermarried. My grandmother's aunt moved down to Boston

in 1888, married there a Passamaquoddy Indian. They had

twin children, two daughters, one moved to Indian Island

and one moved to Pleasant Point or Sebyiak.

Q. You had better spell that.



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A. S-E-B-Y-I-A-K or C, Sebyiac.

Q. So would those people be Maliseet, Passamaquoddy,

Penobscot or --

A. They have been accepted in their communities, so they

identify themselves as Passamaquoddy and Penobscot. And I

have attended Wabanaki meeting that have been held in

Orono, Maine, and in Indian Island as well as in

Passamaquoddy.

Q. What are Wabanaki meetings?

A. They are meetings that have been held between Mi'kmaq,

Maliseet, Abenaki, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot tribes.

Q. And that continues to be done periodically today?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. The next part of your resume deals with papers,

lectures and public addresses.

A. Yes.

Q. Could you, again, highlight the things on there that

might be pertinent to the other aboriginal nations besides

Mi'kmaq?

A. Most of the presentations have been centering around

indigenous knowledge, relationships to the land, the

creation story, ceremonies attached around aboriginal

communities and in the general context most Eastern



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Algonkian-speaking tribes believe in the Glooscap as a

culture hero, a grandmother, other members of the family as

well as their relationships to other species of animals and

trees and plants and birds as being part of their family.

And so this understanding of that relationship, the

spiritual connectiveness involved these other tribes, all

right, people that have been identified as Passamaquoddy,

Penobscot, Mi'kmaq, Maliseet, even Beothuk.

Q. You mentioned Eastern Algonkian?

A. Eastern Algonkian-speaking tribes.

Q. And who would be included in that?

A. All the tribes living from the Delaware River all the

way up to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island,

Newfoundland, even the Inuit and the Montagnais, Mascapee,

Cree.

Q. So that would include the --

A. Ojibwas.

Q. -- Passamaquoddy, Maliseet, Penobscot, Abenaki as well

as Mi'kmaq.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

A. These are all -- linguistically all of these tribes

are related because a lot of the basic words stem from an



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older form of the language which has been identified as a

proto-Algonkian and like, for instance, the colour white is

wabeg, W-A-B-E-G. In Mi'kmaq there are various forms of

that word beginning with W-A-B in all Algonkian languages.

And the same for the colour black and the earth, the sky,

the sun and so on, so a lot of these languages are

connected in that way. In the similar way that Latin may

be identified as the base language for the romantic

languages, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese. So the

Algonkian-speaking people are these group of people that

are interrelated by language in that context.

Q. The creation story that you have spoken about that has

commonality to more than the Mi'kmaq, can you indicate what

use the Canadian Museum of Civilization makes of you and

the Mi'kmaq creation story?

A. We are undertaking a major project for the last 15

years to develop the First People's Hall which is about

150,000 square feet of area or floor space --

Q. 150,000 square feet?

A. Yes.

Q. Sounds like bigger than a football field.

A. It's quite large. Because right now we have an area

in the museum called a grand hall which represents mostly



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the northwest coast, [Michka, Quaquaculak, Haida, Clinget

Nations and Salish and Shimsham?] And these people are

represented by their longhouses or cedar houses with totem

poles and this makes up a very unbalanced representation of

aboriginal people in Canada for the public. So the museum

has been involved in developing this other area to balance

out this representation to incorporate Plains Indians,

Inuit, Iroquoian and the East Coast.

And part of the First Peoples Hall involves collecting

information about how indigenous societies see themselves

coming into existence as opposed to coming across the

Bering-Beringia Strait, Bering Strait.

Q. Yes.

A. And so we're involved in a massive research project to

look for creation stories and the Mi'kmaq one has been

chosen as the one that will highlighting the opening in

April 19 -- 2001 when the First Peoples Hall opens so they

will -- the creation story will -- the Mi'kmaq creation

story will be highlighted as a story that indigenous people

have about their own creation and their own existence and

from their perspective.

Q. Why the Mi'kmaq one?

A. Because it has been the longest in contact. The



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cultural group has been quite a long time in contact with

European culture and the fact that this story has survived

this long.

Q. What's your role in it all?

A. I'll be relating the story in Mi'kmaq in the creation

story theatre which is part of the inside of this First

Peoples Hall at the very beginning stages of it.

Q. Are you going to be there every day on stage or what?

A. No, they're -- they had planned to videotape my

presentation in a holographic presentation to the public,

but because of funding and cutbacks, they have done a

three-screen projection, one on a screen in front and with

two screens in the back to emphasis, I guess, the visual

context of the story.

Q. So you'll be telling that story on the film?

A. It will be told on film in Mi'kmaq with a voice-over

in English and in French and with scenery in the back of

eagles and forest, scenery of the Maritime Provinces

basically.

Q. Have you already filmed that?

A. Yes, they are just editing. It will be finished

probably in January.

Q. All right. And have you, as a Mi'kmaq person, also



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participated in public ceremonies?

A. I have provided a lot of presentations. I have done

pipe ceremonies, sweet grass, sage tobacco-offering

ceremonies. I have done honour songs for aboriginal people

in aboriginal communities, on reserves, for the Grand

Council, for provincial governments, particular government

departments, lawyers, judges, RCMP as well as for the

National Defence, for international work with Environment

Canada, for the United Nations in Rome and as well as in

Madrid, Spain, and for the Governor General.

Q. What it about the Governor General?

A. During the Order of Canada investiture, there were two

aboriginal people identified, Freida [Henique?] and

Rosemary [Captana?], I was invited to do an honour song for

them and do a smudging ceremony during their investiture at

the Government House. And for the former governor,

Governor General Romeo LeBlanc.

Q. Now you see the Exhibit 17, Volume 3, that you have in

front of you, Tab 15, I believe it is. Are some of the

letters that you received from people thanking you for

those presentations included after your CV or resume?

A. Yes, the first one is a letter from John [Harredy?]

who's the director of Biodiversity Convention Office. He



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was asking the director of the museum, Dr. George

MacDonald, if I could come to Spain to represent the

aboriginal people at the United Nations Conference on

Biodiversity. I have prepared a paper on comparing

indigenous knowledge and mainstream science and this was

presented as the background paper for the Government of

Canada in Madrid, Spain, at the United Nations Conference.

Q. And if you -- I don't want you to go through them all,

but if you look to the third last letter, three from the

back, is that the letter you received from the Governor

General Romeo LeBlanc with respect to the --

A. Yes. That's a letter dated March 1st, 1999. Governor

General Romeo LeBlanc thanked me for delivering the Mi'kmaq

eagle song honouring the seven sacred directions and he

thought it was a very moving experience for all who were

there.

Q. All right. And so you did that at Rideau Hall on

February the 3rd, 1999?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Anything else that I haven't covered that you'd

like to bring to our attention about either your work as a

historian, as an ethnologist or with respect to the

Maliseet, Passamaquoddy, and Penobscot?



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A. No.

Q. Do you think it's fair to call yourself an ethno-

historian?

A. Depends on who -- fair to who or fair by who.

Q. Well, in your own opinion based on what work you have

done and continue to do.

A. I have quite an extensive knowledge about the cultural

groups and their history and their relationship with

treaties and their contact with the European nations that

arrived here orally, traditionally and from an academic

context.

Q. What do you mean by an "academic context"?

A. Studying in university, in formal education.

Q. And would that include reviewing historical documents

themselves?

A. Yes.

Q. Documents that are generated by the British or other

Europeans?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you, Your Honour, those are all the questions

for Chief Augustine on his direct for qualification

purposes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS



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THE COURT Mr. Clarke?

MR. CLARKE Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Chief Augustine, with regards to your qualifications

as an ethno-historian, I would like to cover a couple of

areas in that field. Mr. Wildsmith had asked you a number

of questions about your university background.

In your undergraduate degree, I note that you have

anthropology as one of your majors. Was that correct or

was it a minor in your B.A.?

A. It was a major, yes.

Q. Major? And how many history courses were part of that

anthropology major or were there any?

A. History courses involved three of them.

Q. And what were they in relation to those history

courses that you took in your B.A. level?

A. Indian/White Relations.

Q. In what time frame would that have been?

A. In terms of the course?

Q. Yes, what time frame did the course cover?

A. It was from September to April.

Q. Would it have been 16th century Indian/White relations

or 17th century or do you recall?

A. It covered a wide period and it more or less focused



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on Spanish, Dutch, French, and English contacts in North

America and the subsequent history that developed

afterwards, in a general context, in terms of the

experience aboriginal people were undergoing, whether there

was acculturation, assimilation or those kind of concerns.

Q. So that wasn't specific to northeastern North America,

i.e. New England and what is now referred to as the

Maritimes?

A. It sort of started in the south, like, where Columbus

landed and it developed northward. And the focus ended up

in the New England/New Brunswick areas.

Q. And what was the other courses about?

A. Native people and the law. It was given by [Graydon?]

Nicholas.

Q. And what type of subject matter were those courses

covering?

A. It was treaty-related material, land-related material,

but --

Q. And again were those courses primarily concerned with

what is now the Maritime provinces and New England or did

they cover North America generally, like the previous

course?

A. No, it covered mostly the Maritime region.



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Q. And the treaties, which treaties would they have been

with? Were they the Mi'kmaq treaties or were they some of

the New England treaties as well?

A. It covered most of all the treaties that -- each

student was given an assignment to write a paper on a

particular treaty. But in general, in the class, Graydon

Nicholas lectured to us about -- around the beginning of

1700, around the Treaty of Utrecht period towards the

establishment of the Province of New Brunswick.

Q. What year was that?

A. 1783-84.

Q. Now you say each student was assigned a treaty to

write on. Do you recall which one you wrote your --

A. The Richibucto Treaty, 1760, the one signed by Michel

Augustine.

Q. So that would have been the 1760-61 series of treaties

then, would it?

A. Yes.

Q. One of the things that comes up in these cases is the

reference and use of terminology. In your experience, what

is the Mi'kmaq preference, to use "band," "tribe," "local

community," as far as terminology? What would you prefer

to hear when we refer to that type of thing? Is it "band,"



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"tribe"?

A. It varies, whichever community you go. Most Mi'kmaq

people will say We're Mi'kmaq, or Mi'kmaw. I'm a "Mi'kmaw."

"Nation" has been used because the Assembly of First

Nations organized itself around communities, calling

themselves First Nations. And so a lot of the Indian

reserves identify themselves as First Nations communities.

So instead of using "First Nation," they say "Mi'kmaw

Nation Community.

And the Grand Council itself identifies itself as a

national organization.

Q. As a national -- you mean, the Grand Council of First

Nations or the Grand Council of the Mi'kmaq?

A. The Grand Council of the Mi'kmaq.

Q. Is a national organization or recognizable as a

national organization?

A. Yes, we like to consider it.

Q. So when we refer to, in your reference to communities

of the Richibucto, is that a band, a tribe, or is it a

local community, from your perspective or from the Mi'kmaq

perspective?

A. Well, since the establishment of the Department of

Indian Affairs in 1876 and the Indian Act, they've



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identified reserve or lands reserved for Indians, and

identified Indians to live on those particular communities.

So there's been a lot of movement of those particular

communities, and people that are involved. So this is sort

of like the Department of Indian Affairs referred to these

groups as bands.

Q. So that's the terminology that's more modern in

respect to the history of the Mi'kmaq nation than, say,

pre-contact. It would never have been considered then?

A. No, it would be --

Q. Now you've also indicated that part of your eduction,

I believe, when you were at St. Thomas you did research?

A. Yes.

Q. And that included for the State of Maine?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was that research conducted? Was that in Nova

Scotia, New Brunswick or was it just in the State of Maine?

A. It was mainly in New Brunswick at the Provincial

Archives, the main body of information that was being

collected was there. But the information verification

element of it was in the Provincial Archives here in Nova

Scotia, in Fredericton, in New Brunswick, and in Maine, in

Aaron and Augusta.



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Q. So what was your function? Did you collect it or did

you verify it?

A. I collected the information at the Provincial Archives

in Fredericton. And then I was involved in the

verification of the other information.

Q. And what was involved in the verification process?

A. You're given a document and there's a lot of

information in the documents, and there's source numbers on

the documentation. You go to the particular archive. You

look up the source and you look up the document and match

the document that you have in the binders that they

provided. And it was just to ascertain they were the right

amount of sheaves of documents in that particular reference

series.

Q. And did you do a systematic analysis of those

documents for the State of Maine or was that someone else's

responsibility?

A. Dr. Charles [Ackerman?] presented a systematic

analysis of that. This was after an oral presentation

between myself and three others that were involved in the

project.

Q. And the oral presentation was in relation to the

accuracy of the verification or --



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A. Well, it was a systematic -- he organized it in wall

charts on the wall and we were making presentations to him

in order for him to systematize and put it into a report

format to the Attorney General for the State of Maine.

Q. And that was in the late 80s, I believe it was, or was

that in the late 70s you did that?

A. I believe it was in the late 70s. The main land claim

agreement came in 1979-80.

Q. Okay. Now in your opinion, or in your words, what is

the role of an ethno-historian? What is an ethno-historian?

A. An ethno-historian is concerned with the ethnographic,

the structure and the make-up of a cultural group and its

development over time, its change, its structure of a group

as a culture. Looking at issues like language, folklore,

sacred -- they say religious ceremonies, and their

political make-up and their structure, basically.

Q. What training post-graduate have you done to be

qualified as an ethno-historian or is there a qualification

for an ethno-historian?

A. There's a position at the museum for ethno-historian.

You have to have lots of education and working experience

in the cultural field as well as in the historical field of

a particular group of individuals. My specialization was



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the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet and Penobscot/Passamaquoddy of

eastern Canada. There is no -- most ethno-historians have

either a combination of anthropology, history, and

archaeology as a background.

Q. Is ethnology a sub part of anthropology or a

subdiscipline of anthropology?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Do you have any post-graduate level training in

ethnology?

A. Yes, the course I took with Derrick Smith was an

anthropology course looking at aboriginal issues in North

America.

Q. Did it deal with anything -- did it deal with the

Mi'kmaq or the Maliseet in those studies or it was just a

generalized review?

A. No, it was a seminar course, and it required

presenting two papers, two seminar papers, and one major

work. And my work was focusing on Mi'kmaq history and the

creation story.

Q. Now in the ethno-history or ethnology field, is it

possible to maintain an objective distance or a scientific

detachment when studying a community in which you are

actually a member of?



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an ethical approach to doing research in aboriginal

communities for Environment Canada.

Q. Could you take us through step by step, or would it be

too long, your methodology?

A. No, no. By going into an aboriginal community, first

of all, you would have to survey all the literature that

you would be able to find on that particular aboriginal

community. There would be a protocol that you would have

to follow in terms of contacting whoever the administrative

or political head of that community would be to obtain the

necessary permissions or licenses to access individuals

within that community and then to be able to know the

proper protocol of ensuring the proper handling of

information in terms of confidentiality and by providing

the people who provide information to you with gifts and

presents and monetary stipends to ensure that the process

is closely done in a way that is more beneficial to the

community as well as when you finish your research and do a

report, before you finalize the report, you would give your

draft to the community involved and to see if there is any

information that they would not want to be given publicly,

as well as the final report, when it is presented, that you

ensure that wherever this report and for what purpose the



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report will be used that the community are informed,

communities are informed about where this document is going

to go. Plus the benefits from there that might accrue from

this information would be partially negotiated with the

community involved.

Q. That format that you use, how does that differ from

the standard methodology that you were taught when you took

your seminar courses?

A. Well, classically -- Well, it doesn't differ that much

because the ideal is to minimize taking somebody's

information or improperly doing research in the community.

So --

Q. You mean "improperly doing research in the community,"

would that be contrary to local traditions and the local

culture, or contrary to doing research, period?

A. Contrary to local cultures and contrary to the

principles of whatever the researching institute or whoever

provides funding for the research. Classically, what has

happened in the past is anthropologists or historians or

just researchers would come in and start interviewing an

elder or somebody about technology, let's say, about canoes

or toboggans or snowshoes and different people would come

out with patents on those things, and even medicines and



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native people would not even be allowed to touch that plant

that has been particularly identified as their traditional

medicinal plant. It's happened in many instances and

Environment Canada has been focusing on providing an

ethical approach to that kind of research.

Q. Now in your work then, do you distinguish between

western scientific understanding of human history and the

history told by the elders of your community and what do

you do if there is a conflict between the two of them?

A. You don't -- When you have two sources of information

or two sources of knowledge, in the instance of indigenous

people in North America, there is a lot of reliance on

dreams, on visions, on fasting, and how these people are

influenced and use this in terms of their traditional

activities, like hunting, ceremonies, drumming, dancing and

pipe ceremonies, sweat lodge ceremonies. There is a

different sort of information. It's more all encompassing

and it makes sense of everything that is around in its

world view.

While in the mainstream context, research has been

broken down in particular categories, like economy,

political, archaeological, anthropological, social,

cultural, religious and those categories, and it is not



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simply possible to superimpose one over the other, the

written context or the oral context over the written. We

have to deal with them separately and juxtapose these two

and take from it a more rounded source of knowledge rather

than saying that is true and that is not true. According

to your cultural traditions, all knowledge and all

information is valid. If you don't agree, well, that is

valid, that you don't agree, you have your reasons and

rationality. In all likely instances, aboriginal people

will not push their values upon you to change your thinking.

Q. Do you make a distinction in your assessment of oral

history and oral tradition -- Perhaps before we get to

that, in oral history and oral tradition, what is your

definition of oral history and oral tradition?

A. Oral tradition is a culmination of all of the

collective knowledge of indigenous people in a particular

group, cultural group, like the Mi'kmaq people, Mi'kmaw.

Their embodiment of where they come from, there is a

general understanding. There is the sun, there is the

earth, there is Glooscap and all the other entities around

him. There is a general adherence to that belief that we

are all related to each other and we belong to the land and

so on. I'm sorry, can you frame your question again?



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Q. Your definition of oral history and oral tradition.

A. Okay. In the traditional oral tradition, it is a

collective memory of all the Mi'kmaq people of their past

history, their past traditions, their past organization,

their past activities, traditional activities - hunting,

fishing, gathering, collecting and so on. It's embodied in

everybody and it gets passed down in songs. It gets passed

down in ceremonies, in narratives, in dances, in drumming.

Also, in stories. And so this is more or less the oral

tradition, which can span as far back as the memory can

take us about our culture.

Now the oral history is more or less a methodological

approach of collecting information. Oral history can be a

person being interviewed about medicines and the person

could either be writing notes down or having a tape

recorder or a video camera and recording that particular

individual's life experience about what they have

experienced in their lifetime and what they have seen or

heard in their lifetime and how they relate that. That's

more a methodological approach of doing oral tradition. It

could be about the Jews during the war and the Holocaust.

It could be about Turks. It could be anybody who could

talk about their personal experience about a war experience



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or whatever. That is the method involved in recording

those voices in that context and those experiences.

Q. When you are doing that sort of work, do you make a

distinction between what actually happened, the recorded

past, or what people believe might have happened in the

past? How do you distinguish between those two in your

capacity when you are assessing oral history and oral

tradition?

A. Oral tradition would involve interpretation of dreams,

visions and more or less deal with an incident occurring in

relation to when I was born or when my grandmother was born

or when my grandmother canoed across to Newfoundland or

there was a natural disaster or there was some particular

event, a big snowstorm or an icestorm. It could have been

when a young person might have shot a moose for the first

time. Those time frames are -- it's incidences that are

recorded around particular events, around a particular land

formation. It could be around Glooscap's Mountain or

around a certain inlet or around a river. A particular

incident may have occurred. A starvation or a moose didn't

come this year or caribou didn't come and it was a hard

winter. So oral tradition would more or less focus on that

while oral history would identify a particular moment in



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that person's lifetime. More recent, depending on the age

of that person.

Q. So tradition is more of a global concept within the

community and history is the individual's recollection of

an incident?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it, in this concept of oral tradition, is it

possible to derive knowledge about what people understood

over 200 years ago from what they understand today occurred

200 years ago?

A. Yes, in the context that the Mi'kmaq Grand Council is

organized in such a way that we would read past treaties.

We would read the wampum belts. We would re-enact the

ceremonies that were practiced traditionally by our people,

and, in this way, these ceremonies involve relationships

between families, relationships between communities and

relationships between neighbouring communities. And so it

was contiguous to the survival of indigenous nations, like

the Mi'kmaq, to ensure that these activities continued,

even symbolically.

Q. When you're reviewing the history that you're talking

about, and your studies, when you look at Mi'kmaq oral

history and oral tradition, do you view it as a Mi'kmaq or



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someone who has training in the western historical

tradition? I'm thinking of your training in university

plus your seminar training and your current employment

where you have obviously have ongoing on-the-job training,

I guess, "OJT," we call it, I guess, or government used to

call it.

A. Yes.

Q. How do you review it? Do you review it as a Mi'kmaq

or as somebody who has got an education that allows you to

go in and make a critical assessment of this oral history

and oral tradition?

A. Well, first of all, I am a Mi'kmaq on the Grand

Council from Big Cove. I look at it from that context from

an experiential context. Then I look at my educational

training that has allowed me to look at documentation and

be able to determine what kind of information that I am

looking for. At the beginning, usually there is a sense of

direction it gives you, where this article or document is

going and what kind of information does it record and how

does it record it and who is it about and what is it about

and those main questions you start to ask yourself. And I

credit that to my academic education, to be able to

critically analyze documentation.



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Q. We've heard evidence in this Court and I'm just

wondering, from your experience and your knowledge, not

only as a Mi'kmaq individual and elder and hereditary

chief, is their culture, the Mi'kmaq culture, primarily an

oral culture?

A. Primarily, yes, because it is not taught in the

schools about our history or culture, about our treaties,

our relationships with Europeans. It is not taught in a

formal way in schools.

Q. Was there any form of hieroglyphic developed by the

Mi'kmaq prior to European contact or European contact?

A. There was a form of symbols that had been utilized by

the indigenous people to convey message on trails, on boats

in the waters, on the land and the river systems, marking

on trees and so on, as well as on their own clothing, on

the hats of women that may gather. There are particular

designs on the hat that would identify a particular woman

at a ceremony to determine whether she was the chief's

wife, grand chief's mother, chief's daughter, or chief's

sister. In this way, younger members of the tribe would

not inappropriately approach a lady for asking the wrong

kind of questions. These markings differentiated also

hereditary chiefs that would have come from certain



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districts and so on.

When the missionaries arrived, LeClerc developed a

standardized system of these hieroglyphics and began to

teach the Indians about prayers. Maillard also further

developed these and [Crowder?] and they published books,

and most recently, David Schmidt published a book on these

hieroglyph.

Q. I note on your outline that you will be referring to

some works that are in Exhibit 17 by Ms. Cruikshank.

A. Yes.

Q. She is an anthropologist, is she not?

A. She is.

Q. And you have a basis in anthropology in your -- In

your work, do you follow her opinions or do you just use

her as a reference?

A. I follow some of her opinions but I have also other

opinions about some aspects of it, but I will go into that

in more detail.

Q. This form of hieroglyphics, it was developed when,

17th century, 16th century?

A. When LeClerc arrived, he --

Q. Okay, so it's post contact.

A. Yes.



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Q. And it's a form of communication, is it not?

A. It was a communication that was standardized by

LeClerc in order to facilitate him teaching the Lord's

Prayer and Catholic prayers to the Mi'kmaq people.

Q. Is the wampum or wampum belt a form of communication

as well?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. It is a form of written communication, is it not?

A. More symbolically than written. It is a construction

of wampum quahog shells that are almost a quarter of an

inch in height and about the same in diameter and they have

been strung on sinew and they form figures on a belt that

is strung together by these quahog shells and there are

symbols on the belt that might indicate a pipe or a wigwam

or other elements, individ