1 COLESHILL INTERVIEW 10 – 24th FEBRUARY 1998 MRX

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 10 – 24th FEBRUARY 1998 MRX: But up to now I’ve been almost too for it, I suppose. I know a lot of the local people are

against it. But I thought that was a little bit Mediaeval minded and it wasn’t that they were so bothered about what happened to the river, as to how much money was being spent and it could perhaps be spent on other things or whatever, but I suppose I thought I was a 20th century man thinking that it was a grant for restoring ancient things. I’ve changed my mind a little bit I must say because I think that the actual flood plain that they were trying to preserve is in fact being drained very efficiently by the river cut.

INT: Really? MRX: So I don’t think really the plain’s ever going to be the way it was when I knew it. I’ve only

been here 25 years. I’ve only been here a short time, in fact, but the floods I knew I don’t think will come again. Now whether they were good or whether they were bad is not for me to say, I suppose, but I mean ...

INT: Do you think that’s because ... you say they won’t come again ... do you think it’s because

the climate’s changing or because of what they’ve done with the river? MRX: I’m not sure about the climate bit because ... I know we’ve had dreadfully mild winters and

all that, but the couple of occasions this winter where we have had a pretty good flood, it’s been an entirely shaped flood altogether to how it used to be and not so drastic, although most of the people in the village think it’s quite a big flood because they don’t know how it used to be, you know, it’s only the old timers, you know, that ... the old people that knew it before. So I don’t know. I’m just a bit disappointed from that aspect. From an aesthetic point of view it’s going to be hard to tell until all the things start to grow and whatever’s going to be allowed to grow, to be honest, I suppose it’s all going to be done by some bloody committee or other I expect.

INT: Right. I mean, talking ... what I was going to ask you was whether you think now, having

... it’s two years since they did the main works ... are there any ways in which you think the scheme has been a success or not? I mean you mentioned about the flood, the level of water now ...?

MRX: A success ... I don’t know. I think a great deal of thought went into actually making this

new river, whatever they call it, with the lovely little gravel runs and ripples and little backwaters they made for wildlife and things like that. I mean we might ??? that in the future if it really does help wildlife and all the rest of it, mind you ... the red blooded, if that’s the right word for it ... men around here, I doubt if anything that moves will survive longer than 10 minutes because, you know, I don’t know, they sleep with their guns as well round here. I’m being wicked about that I think, I don’t know ??? or not, they must continue to do it for as long as they need to I suppose, but I don’t know if ... well let’s face it, the river’s always been in their hands anyway, so it’s easy to harp back and say things were better in the old days, which makes me sound like an old git, but I don’t know, so I do think that they did it with care, with the best will in the world, it’s been nicely done. I’m not sure that the idea of ??? the river to the back of the withy beds was a good idea, because from my point of view, the ?? beds has always been a backwater. It’s relied on the back pressure from the river to put the water up there, and that’s always been enough, there’s

UK Data Archive Study Number 4184 - Rivers As Local Nature? Local Public Responses to River Restoration Projects, 1997-1998

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never been a flow through the withy beds in my time. Now whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing or not I don’t know, but I think that that was a bit of a rush of blood, it’s a bit too bland that backwater, I think it’s a bit contrived.

INT: Which bit is that, the withy beds? MRX: The withy beds are ... you know, where the river project actually starts, it comes over

XXXXX’s woods, and they’ve got the little sluice gates here which let the water into the new river flow, it’s beyond that point there, as the river turns sharp left, the old river turns sharp left, on the right there are some lovely old willows ...

INT: Oh, I know, yes. MRX: ... and the water used to back pressure up between those willows and that was really quite

nice, it used to vary of course, I used to think that was really probably quite a good idea for wildlife back there. They’ve got some beautiful little backwaters and things which I think could be really wonderful for wildlife. I’m not criticising the actual work they’ve done. From that point of view, it’s just that I think the main purpose, from my point of view, was that they were going to try ... let’s face it, I suppose it must have been because of the environment, perhaps, that we’re not getting the floods that we got when I first came here. I mean when I first came here everybody said we were getting too many floods because too many big buildings had been built and there was this great sort of storage of water being injected into the river and all the rest of it. So, you know, I find it difficult to know whether I’m talking a lot of rot because I don’t really know what I’m talking about anyway, and I don’t know what it was like in the old days anyway, but I think I talked to old XXXXX about it once and he was about 3045 when he died, I think. He was a real old boy and we talked then about the ... because it just used to be a sort of ?? depression going across the meadow where the flooding is required, and you always used to think, my goodness, that was a funny little bit, but of course it was only just a little depression. Now if they say that that’s where they think the original river was, but of course, now they’ve cut the original river, and they’ve cut it beautifully, I know, but we have got the other one as well and I think the main river, the later river has been a bit of an embarrassment for them really. They would have loved to have done without it I think, which would have meant the Mill would have been starved altogether.

INT: Of course. MRX: Now, I’m not putting words in their mouths, because they would probably deny it, or I

might be entirely wrong about it, but I just feel now that the old river ... now is a bit of a sort of a ... it’s still and there’s hardly any flow through it.

MRX: I didn’t like to touch the things then because I felt that they were juggling with the levels.

I just let the water run through and you can never tell whether the XXXXXXX people come down and do it or not. I know they must because they’ve been digging a lot of stuff out and just chucking it on the side, because you see beyond the sluice gates, you know, you’ve got the sluice gates here and then there’s a little run, well of course, that bit now is just still. It’s just static, that’s the word for it. Stagnant, I think, is the word.

INT: Yes.

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MRX: It’s not quite so nice as static is it? But that’s sort of stagnant now, and that’s been, you know, in the Spring that’s always dreadful because you get all the lift off the bottom of the river come down, so God knows what it’s going to be like this Spring ...

NT: You don’t think it’s been a success then as far as the intention of sort of flooding the nearby

fields ...? MRX: Well I share this view with lots of other people in the village because, as I say, I’ve really

been so reluctant to complain about it, because there were so nice, so enthusiastic, and the reasons they had for doing it were so sound, I was for it 100%, and I was for it despite the fact that quite a few people I know were against it and thought it was a waste of time and money, and I sort of stuck my neck out a little bit, a few of us did, I know, but now, I mean, I don’t want to sort of go back and start to criticise them about it, but I don’t think I could honestly say it was a success.

INT: No. MRX: We’re still getting floods and things but they’re happening in different places. INT: Can you think of any way in which you think it may have been successful? MRX: I just think that aesthetically it could be a real success when everything grows, especially if

we get otters and things come back, that would be magic, I mean we’ve got mink at the moment, but I don’t know how ... they might think it’s Paradise. ???

INT: Do you think it’s encouraged any more wildlife than you had before, or not? MRX: I don’t think so really, no. From the point of view of ???????????? are going to be around,

I have seen a couple of snipe fly out of the river, which I’ve not seen for a long time, perhaps that’s a good sign, I hope so. And the buzzards are back, but that’s another matter altogether.

INT: Do you see any benefits coming out of this project, for yourself or other people in the area

at all? MRX: Yes. ... But I really don’t know, to be honest. INT: I mean, compared to what your expectations were when you knew that they were going to

do the project, what you knew about it then, compared to how it is now, how would you say that it compares?

MRX: Well it’s still an open book as far as I’m concerned, because my only interest really was in

the wildlife. As far as public access is concerned I think that probably be ... unless the National Trust actually organise walks and things ... we do have an Education Officer now. He’s going to bring children down to look at things. So that might be really rather nice. I’ve just filled out a little questionnaire there. She’s bringing a couple of parties of about 60 children each down in the near future.

INT: To look at the project, or ... ?

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MRX: But that’s to look at the village ... INT: The village ... MRX: I think she’s looking at the history of the village and population movements and things like

that. I’m very suspicious of these things, damn good statistics for the National Trust in the end I expect, so that they can put our rents up and ensure there’s a range rover in every drive. So I’m a bit suspicious about that because we’re very sensitive about the community in this village, which is excellent, so I mean the more the kids find out about that the better. But how much they’re going to have in contact with the river I don’t know. I suspect it’s not going to be very much. She’s not going to take 60 kids across the meadows I don’t think. And of course, the farmers, I don’t think, are all that keen on public access anyway, because it is rather tucked away in the village, the river screen, and let’s face it, I mean basically they’ve cut another river, well we had a river in the first place. I suppose this one’s going to be a bit more ripply and swirly and more like the old one and all the rest of it, but you know, I mean, I don’t know. I’m saying nothing but bad things about it at the moment, whereas before I said nothing but good ones.

INT: Well, you say what you feel, you know. It’s interesting how your views have changed. MRX: I’d hate to pillory these people and say I think you’ve wasted all that money. I think it’s a

disgrace. Because I don’t think they did waste the money in the sense that they put a terrific amount of effort into it and all the rest of it, and it must have been a terrific learning curve for them. One hopes it was anyway, but I just think that at the moment anyway it probably isn’t going to be much better. I mean, let’s face it, in a few years the river might silt up a bit in places and we might get a lot more back pressure and all the rest of it. You see, I’m speaking as a lay man, I don’t really understand the engineering sort of bits of this, but I do understand that if you’ve got water flowing downhill it’s going to disappear and until you’ve got some sort of a stopper on it, and the stopper appears to have been put on on the weir and on my Mill gates, and I think that’s sort of out of sight out of mind, because there’ve been people round to look at the water project, I don’t think they actually necessarily come around to the ... so I’d be interested to find out what the Trust are really going to do about the weir. I can’t really ask ??? about it, she’s only been here 10 minutes. But I don’t know what the last chap, who’s just gone somewhere else ...

INT: Richard Morris, yes. He’s in Somerset now, I believe. I’ve been trying to chase him up

for this. MRX: Yes, that’s right. He’s in the ??? or something. INT: Yes, that’s right. MRX: But, you know, I just don’t know how the Trust got on with the river people in the end and

vice versa. As I say, when Vivash came round and I said, you know, the Mill pond looks a bit dreadful at the moment, there’s all that algae on it, I said, I started a little bit of water to go through into that to try and freshen it up a bit. Oh yes, he said, that’s fine, that’s fine. He didn’t see anything wrong with that. And I said I wouldn’t mind a bit going through the Mill as well to freshen my mill stream up a bit as well. Make it a bit more natural. He

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said, I think that would be all right. And then, as I say, he then told me the schemes as far as he knew about the Trust restoring the sluice gate. I can’t see the Trust restoring the sluice gates in the Mill, and unless they’ve finally come to the conclusion that they’re going to spend the money on the Mill. Now they can’t get the money for the Mill unless they can guarantee public access.

INT: Right. MRX: And unless they’re going to turn me into a curator here instead of a tenant, they won’t talk

about that, and I think I’m a good little earner at the moment, but if they decide to do that then perhaps the public will get access. I’ve done it before. I’ve worked for the Trust.

INT: Really? MRX: Doing just that with the house, you know, but ??? 70’s, but I’ve done a bit of that now. INT: One of the objectives was to try and restore the river here to a more natural condition by

doing the project, I mean, if I were to ask you to describe to me... how do you see a natural river? How would you describe a natural river to me?

MRX: It’s jolly difficult that, isn’t it? I mean, generally speaking, I think that’s probably got a

little bit to do with antiquity, hasn’t it? You tend to think that a river is attractive because of the wonderful things that have arisen as a result of its presence, like the trees, and the wildlife, and the water plants and all the rest of it, which is why it’s too early to judge the new one they’ve cut. I’m sure the new one, when all the things grow around it, is going to be as beautiful as any other river. And I think the way they designed it was magic. I love the way they’ve put the little bends to make the water ripple here and there and that sort of thing, and I just think that it’s a lovely little piece of craft, I think. But the difficulty is that with the best will in the world it’s .. you see, the river as everybody knows it now, is the old river now, because the new river might take its place eventually, but the old river is still pretty big and wide. I mean perhaps if they were to let more water go down the new one and make the other one shrink down to become more narrow and become a bit of a stream, almost a ditch, we could still get water coming through the Mill, it wouldn’t be enough to drive it, but then there’ll never be that much anyway, especially now, so I think really what’s happened is that we’ve got a bit of a sore thumb in the old way the river was contrived. You see, the river was contrived originally to drive the Mill, and they wanted to restore it to the old one which they’ve done and that’s wonderful, but I’m living at the Mill and it’s my lot at the moment to say perhaps quite negative things about it because I’m talking about how it’s affected the Mill and ... but I do think that the Mill, the way that the river was contrived to work the Mill, is a very important piece of industrial archaeology. It’s an interesting thing. I mean it’s brick sided and there’s the little sluice gates at Seven Steps and all the little sluice gates that were used to contrive the water in the stop pen to drive the Mill and all the rest of it, and I still think it’s worthwhile keeping it. So I think, you know, just a little bit of fine tuning, if they were to tune the water so that it’s still flowing through the Mill and so that we could have a proper idea of what this weir is going to be like, this concrete weir, so that the ?? can stay fresh ...

INT: You’d be a lot happier.

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MRX: I mean, perhaps the river people might say that the ?? would stay fresh anyway, but from what I’ve seen of it this summer, it’s been very stagnant, and I think it relies very much on the sluice gates being open, but I’m going to get a lot of rubbish collecting at the Mill, there’s no doubt about that. That’s no fault of the people that cut the new river really, because ... well I suppose it is actually. I’m trying not to cast blame but just state the facts as they are really.

INT: How feasible do you think it is to talk about restoring a river to its natural state? Do you

think that a ... MRX: Well I always thought that they’d taken aerial photographs and things like that and they

were ... they had enough evidence to prove where the original river was, in which case you’ve got a sort of starting point for the whole thing, haven’t you, but if there’s no way of knowing where it was and they just took a guess, then I’d be very sceptical about that altogether.

INT: If maybe not just thinking about the Cole, but sort of rivers generally, do you think it’s

possible to really restore rivers to their natural state these days? MRX: I don’t know. I suppose the proof of the pudding’s going to be in a couple of generations

time when it’s all grown up, because this will be a natural river, won’t it, once all the plants and ... it depends on nature really, doesn’t it? It depends on nature more than human beings. I mean, let’s face it, when you think about it, the river that’s been used to drive the Mill, perhaps they were wrong in thinking that in fact the water that drives the Mill now ... I mean if the original river had been where they’ve cut it, then the Mill wouldn’t have been built where it is now presumably. Why did they build the Mill where it was? There must been a head of water there to drive it. ... I mean I just go by hearsay ... I suppose it must be 40 years ago, something like that, and the Mill wheel used to go round in those days, because when there was a bit of a flood the wheel used to go round in the middle of the night and nearly shake xxxxx out of bed.

INT: How natural do you think the Cole looked or was before they did the project here, and how

natural do you think it is now? MRX: The Cole above the Mill, the stop pen and beyond, I suppose in a way, when I think about

it, it was a little bit straight, like a canal, so you know, this was the industrial bit presumably, I think that’s what they must have done, was to straighten it all out there and probably widened it to give themselves a good old stock of water, which now of course, it’s not been denied, the water still goes into it, but it’s not allowed to get out the other end you see, that’s the trouble.

INT: I mean how natural do you think the new bit looks? MRX: I think they’ve cut it beautifully naturally, I mean the way they’ve put the meanders in and

things I think is wonderful. In fact I couldn’t believe it. I really did admire the way they did it and xxxxxxxx agreed. She thought it was lovely. I just couldn’t wait to see the sort of plants grow. We used to go ??? on a regular basis and look. We used to moan about there being too many docks and thistles, which of course is going to take a long time for the balance to get right. I mean nature doesn’t have a web site, does it?

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INT: Not yet. MRX: So it’s going to take a generation or two I suppose. INT: Yes. MRX: As I say, I think it’s going to look absolutely lovely. INT: Some people say that we’ve tamed all of our rivers really now, that we control them all in

this country. Do you think that’s true? MRX: I don’t know. I mean I suppose you think when the Cole was tamed to drive the Mill, way

back in the 18th century. I mean, let’s face it, there was a Mill here in Doomsday you know, so when you think about the original river, we’re talking about it again, you see, there was enough water to drive a water mill and a flour mill here, so I don’t know quite how our chaps in committee sort of brushed that one aside to give the other one priority. It’s only my personal opinion, perhaps ?????, but I mustn’t say ??? because I don’t understand it, but even an efficient ditch I think would have ... where they wanted it to flood, they’ve drained it instead of ... that’s what it was about really, they’ve dug a rather super drain through it, which will look lovely in time, but I don’t know how the curlews view it at the moment.

INT: Do you think by controlling a river you’re making it less natural or not really altering that

aspect of it? MRX: Well that’s a difficult thing isn’t it, because man can’t keep his hands out of anything can

he? Almost everything we see now that we take for granted as being natural, we always thought the old river was pretty natural, it wasn’t until this project came up that people started to think about stop pens. Obviously I did, because I live here and I’ve thought about it a lot, but I used to look at the brick sides and things and wonder if this little wharf, you know, ???? but I don’t know, there might be somebody like your goodself in a little while will be looking at the new river they’ve cut, when all the greenery’s grown around it and all the rest of it, and they’ll be talking about how contrived the old river was and what a good idea it was to restore it to some sort of natural meander, you know, and I think there’s a certain amount of truth in that, there always will be, but ...

INT: But do you see the new river as also being contrived? MRX: I find it mostly contrived where they’ve dug it round to take the river through the ?? beds,

and I think that was a very bad thing, because that really does look like a canal, straight sided and cut like somebody’s taken a gouge and cut it, you know, and it’s ???? and I think there was no need for that because we’ve now got that going round the back and coming down and the extra bits, the original’s been blocked up and I’m not sure about that bit at all. I think that there is a contrivance there I think, but I think from the point of view of digging the new river, I suppose it can’t be really natural because there’s sluice gates on the end of it.

INT: Yes.

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MRX: And that’s another contrivance. The pieces of wood, in a way, are controlling the weir, it’s

man’s hand being shown to have created a little bit of river there. It’s not arising naturally from the water coming past xxxxxxx’s. I shall always call it xxxxxxx’s won’t I.

INT: Do you think that the project has been a scientific project in any sense? MRX: I think only if it was either experimental or instructional for the people that actually did the

digging and meandering and the water engineering. I can see that. And from the conservation point of view, the people ... I mean as we said before that’s going to be a terrific ongoing thing for them ... I suppose it’s scientific from that point of view, but I mean, kingfishers have certainly adopted it straightaway, they whiz up and down there, but they whizzed up and down here, they still whiz up and down on both rivers, it’s just an extra bonus for them, but I think that if we do get ... I don’t know ... that’s a scientific side of it I suppose, the conservation side of it, yes, I suppose it is conservation, it’s more, it’s almost ... yes, it’s conservation I suppose.

INT: Can you think of ... MRX: It’s trying to bring back things actually, things we’ve lost, like ??? and otters and things. INT: Yes. MRX: But I mean, as I say, we’ve already got Canada Geese and mink, that probably weren’t here

years ago, but then there’s probably a lot of things around here that we didn’t have years ago.

INT: Yes. I mean would you have an idea of what sort of knowledge, or scientific knowledge,

or other types of knowledge would be necessary to do a project like this? MRX: ??? knowledge, no. I should think it would have to be ... It would have to be surely,

knowledge of the highest order really, because I think tinkering with a thing like that without having the proper ... I’m not going to say qualifications because I detest qualifications .. but experience and know-how, without people that really had their finger on the pulse of such things. And let’s face it, it is finger on the pulse isn’t it? It’s an artery, after all, and I think that to not put too fine a point on it, I think if it was done by people as an experiment for themselves or for a way of being a little earner for them for some grant, I’m being terribly cynical now, I mean I hope to God it wasn’t anything to do with that, because some of us really did believe in it and we thought it was going to be wonderful. And let’s face it, it still will be perhaps. I jolly well hope it will be, once we get these few little bits altered, I still see it as being a beautiful piece of work, but at the moment perhaps, slightly contrived. But in time of course, the sluice gates will rot away, everything will go back to nature again in the end. Nature will have her own way in the end anyway, with or without an EEC grant.

INT: Right, yes. Yes, I mean that’s interesting again, about you know, whether we can actually

control nature, if you like. MRX: Yes, that’s right. I think not. We can’t control ?????

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INT: Fortunately, no. I mean how much do you think, or to what extent do you think that the

RRP and people involved actually know how to restore rivers? Do you think they have the necessary knowledge and experience?

MRX: They certainly appear to have when they come and talk to us at the village, and their

enthusiasm was indefatigable, but I mean, they were so enthusiastic for the whole project and doing the whole thing, I mean, I don’t know ... judging by the way they’ve cut it, it looks as though they’re doing it all the time, which is brilliant as far as I’m concerned, but it’s whether it should have been cut in the first place, I suppose. I suppose that’s where we get to the point but I think it’s different groups have to get together as a committee and perhaps it’s a bit of a committee project and not an inspired bit of work. You see, the thing is, I mean, some ??? could have come along there and decided to drain that piece of land anyway, cut a ditch through it, and in 100 years time it could have been accepted as a little river. It could have been as easy as that. I mean, let’s face it, the other side of the part of the river, I talk about the straight bit, the stop pen, I mean we’ve got that very straight ditch running right the way through it, and that’s a dreadful contrivance too, ??? amount of water in that now, and they’ve had to put water boards and underpasses and all sorts of things in that, which are very visible and they were far less obvious in the old days, where it used to run under Seven Steps and into the little pit that you see. The whole area’s been contrived by farmers or whoever. Farmers have run roughshod over the whole place for generations, haven’t they? Grubbed up all the hedges and things, but for the National Trust I shouldn’t think there’d be a hedge in the place. In fact it would probably be a dust bowl and I have to drink in the pub with the people that sell the chemicals, never mind use them, and it’s no fun I can tell you. It doesn’t fill you with a great deal of optimism which is why when some ?? group came along with some money from well meaning people that decided to try and claw a bit back we were absolutely delighted and let’s hope to God that’s how it works out. And I think it jolly well will, except I don’t think we’re going to get that area to flood as efficiently as it used to, but, all right, the curlews can bloody well just find somewhere else to live, and they will, because nature will have its own way, and I’d like to finish on an optimistic note, that I think it’s been very carefully and beautifully done and by people who I’m sure have the best will in the world and whom I admire greatly for the green things they do and the fact that they actually care about nature as opposed to wanting to bloody destroy it all the time, and I think it’s absolutely wonderful and especially the bit about asking the farmers not to farm right up to the edges of it in an attempt to have some sort of a safety barrier in as far as all the bloody chemicals are concerned. I don’t know how long that will work but it’s a wonderful gesture, a step in the right direction, I’m all for it. So I’m not jumping and agreeing with the mediaeval minded lot.

INT: I mean would you say you sort of trusted the RRP, if you like, to know what they were

doing? MRX: I did. Oh yes. When they spoke, and at the sort of presentation they gave and all the rest

of it, it was quite obvious they’d given it a lot of thought and it was quite obvious that they would have had to have given it a lot of thought to have got the grant in the first place. Now the hope is with these things, is that the getting of the grant wasn’t the most important thing about the project. I sincerely hope that that wasn’t the case, but from what I’ve seen, I don’t know how much money they got, and I don’t want to know really, but they’ve certainly spent a great deal of money on it and they’ve done it extremely well. It’s just

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beautifully done, but how history will see it I don’t know. The survey’s a little bit early. INT: Perhaps it is actually, yes. MRX: But in fact it needs surveys all along the line that will gradually sort of ... each on will be an

upgrade of each other, so each survey’s going to be a bit of a failure in one sense, in as much as the next one’s going to say oh yes, but look how well it’s turned out, hopefully. And that’s what we hope, isn’t it? I hope it’s going to turn out brilliantly. ... the rest of the villagers’ children’s children will see that it’s an absolute wonderful little village with a lovely little river to go up and down and do a bit of fishing and have lots of adventures in and all the rest of it. And that we don’t have half the city of London bussed out every weekend to walk up and down it.

INT: Do you think the local people ... I don’t know if you do yourself .. think about the river as

sort of .... MRX: ... by the villagers. There’s a wide spectrum of people here in as much as we’ve got ???

rich people who are in show business, right down to people who are ... a farmer, people who work for the Trust picking up the litter, all living in the same village, all living wonderfully in the village together, you know, terrific projects and little parties and things here. Our Firework Night is not to be missed.

INT: Really? MRX: And everybody turns out to these things and it’s absolutely wonderful. And despite all the

things I say about ... you know, we don’t all agree about things, we’re not all going on the march on 1st March, but it doesn’t stop us talking to each other and buying each other a pint in the pub. And there’s no acrimony in the village at all as far as I can see. Little, anyway. And that’s great, but as you say, as far as the river’s concerned, I think everybody was up in arms about it at first, and I think, to be honest, if I was to ask, I think most people were against it being tampered with to be honest, but I just thought really that perhaps, I don’t know, perhaps I didn’t have enough foresight or imagination about it and I didn’t see the river that was being cut as being quite as major as it’s turned out to be, but I didn’t see any reason why the old river shouldn’t live in harmony with the new one, that’s how I feel about it. So we want a bit more river up this end, we want more flow, even at the expense of the ... because I don’t think that field’s going to flood properly anyway, like it did in the old days, and see what happens a bit further downstream. It needs flooding downstream a bit you see. When I first came here they dredged the river to make it carry more water ... contrivance ... it was contrived, it was all big farm buildings going up and building estates and all the extra water going in, ???? injected into the river at great speed so they dredged the river. At Letchlade the pleasure steamers going out on Sunday found they couldn’t get back because the river was running too quickly, so what one does here affects ... I mean, let’s face it, we can’t sneeze without completely altering this cosmos can we?

INT: No. No. I mean thinking about what part or what role the river plays in the life of the

community, do you think it plays an important role or an important part in the community? MRX: Far less now than it used to, because the children used to ... before the days of pollution ...

children used to swim in it all the time, certainly swept steps, that contrived bit at Seven

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Steps that we talk about being contrived for the Mill was a perfect swimming pool for the kids and they were in it all the time. It was just perfect for them. And, of course, that’s the other thing, they used to sort of canoe a bit up and down there as well, the water weed’s going to grow like mad I suppose now there’s not enough ????, so I’m not quite sure what’s going to happen on there, but swimming in the river, the kids used to fish a lot, of course they’ve got the television now and the play stations. So they can fish from those now, but there’s still certainly a lot of fishing activity on the river.

INT: Have you seen more fish in the new cut at all? MRX: No. INT: No. MRX: No. I haven’t seen any in the new cut. Well, I thought I saw one, but I think it’s only a

matter of time, I suppose. The fish are still in the ?? but you wouldn’t think they would have been if we hadn’t let some water in. That’s how I feel about it anyway. There are some wonderful fish in there.

INT: Are there? MRX: I don’t want anybody to know about it. INT: It’s private fishing isn’t it? MRX: It’s xxxxxx Fishing Club, but we do get a lot of ???? come down and I have to spend some

time picking up crisp packets and coke cans ????? INT: Would you say the river plays a large part in your life at all? Or not? MRX: Well yes, it does, yes. Yes, I feel terribly privileged to be in the right area. ???? INT: Yes. Do you see it as playing an important part in the local landscape as well? MRX: Oh there’s no question about that. The mere fact that we’ve got a water mill, a water mill

has got so much in it, you know ... INT: I’ve almost finished now, actually, but how much do you think .. or do you think that the

local use of the river by local people was taken into account when they were planning and designing the project here?

MRX: Well I don’t know, because you see, when they came, as perfect strangers to the area, they

probably thought that the river wasn’t being used at all by the village really, apart from people walking their dogs along the banks, which the farmers aren’t all that happy about anyway. I mean, us locals just do it, but the keeper, I mean, he’ll come up to you with a gun even though you live in the village and there’s people lived in the village longer than I have who ... he still thinks he’s the keeper of the ... you know God’s keeper. And there’s been a few rows about him in the past.

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INT: Is he a Trust employee or ...? MRX: No, I think he’s employed by the shoot. INT: Oh right. MRX: Because they’re terrified that the pheasants are going to fly you see. I asked him once isn’t

that what they were supposed to do, and he said, oh yes, he said, but they fly out of my wood into somebody else’s wood. That was the problem you see. And I said well what about people walking in the other wood? They’d all fly back then. We didn’t get on all that well about it, but this is the problem you see. There was a little meeting in the pub the other night with somebody who was complaining about the duck. He said those duck you put on the wall last year weren’t very good were they? They didn’t fly very well. So I suggested perhaps with genetic engineering we might contrive to put an extra wing on them or something so that they could have a little bit more support if you know what I mean, but you know, that’s the sort of ... talking about sort of using the river and what not.

INT: It’s a big hunting area around here, isn’t it? MRX: Oh yes, oh there all off, on 1st March the place will be deserted. ... they .. it’s very horsy

of course and everything. And ???? it’s got a lovely little equestrian centre up there and there.

INT: Yes, I’ve seen it. MRX: And there are so many people that get so much pleasure out of it. And they do riding for

the disabled and all sorts of other things up there, it’s wonderful, and it’s an excellent organisation, but they are rather keen to hunt.

INT: Yes. MRX: Which as I say they must do for as long as they need to as far as I’m concerned. I know

they’re going to legislate against it. I think it’s a great pity and a big mistake, but it’s got nothing to do with the river project.

INT: Interesting as it is. Just a few final questions then really about what happened with

consulting local people about the project. Did you go to any of the meetings that they had? MRX: I did yes. There were lots of questions and they took them all very seriously and I’m sure

the last thing they wanted to do was to step on people’s toes, but you see, looking at it from a cynical point of view ... I don’t know a lot about grants because I’ve never had one in my life, but I just think that possibly the presentation and the acquiring ... I think perhaps the grant was probably already acquired then, it was probably already got for the project, I don’t know, perhaps they couldn’t have got it without the agreement of ... I mean, I’m parish councillor as you know, probably, and we agreed on the council that it would be a good thing and it was an exciting project and we felt quite honoured about being one of the designated areas, and we thought that perhaps it would be rather exciting, especially for the little ones, to see that we were making an effort to be green, you know, teaching by example, etc. that was all magic as far as I was concerned, the most important thing in the

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world. So the answer is yes, I do think that they took people’s ... INT: You do, you think that they took people’s views on board. MRX: I think they really wanted to. Of course, you can never tell when there’s a bunch of lads

together, all very enthusiastic. Lads and lasses, I think there were some lasses as well, but a group of people who were very enthusiastic and they’ve got this sort of project on board, they want to make a success of it, which in a way is the same thing as saying they wanted to do the right thing and make a good job for the village.

INT: Do you think that local people had a chance to influence what was done though in any way? MRX: I don’t know because ... you ought to ask the landowners about that really, because they are

always able to influence everything in the world, but they are the only ones able to influence anything in the country, so I think that ... I don’t know, probably not.

INT: Did you find that it was presented as something that was going to happen whether you

really wanted it or not or was that not the way it sort of came across? MRX: I think once we decided to have it, whether it was decision or whether it was a fait

accompli, we were not duped into thinking that we’d decided to make a decision which is what usually happens in political matters, isn’t it? That may have been it but I think, say for instance, they had done something, myself or xxxxx or somebody had gone across there and said oh no, we don’t agree with that, I mean you’ve got to stop that digger right here and now until we have a meeting about it, I don’t know what would have happened there. We did give them free rein once we said yes, go ahead, because their presentation had been so comprehensive, they seemed to know what they were doing and their intentions were ideal and we knew, as we’ve already said here, that it’s only going to be generations hence that we’ll know whether it was a success or not, so to a certain extent, we had to give them free rein, I suppose.

INT: Would you say you were satisfied with the consultation you had? MRX: I think so at the time, yes, because we didn’t think they could have done much more about

it, and the job would never have been done, would it, if they’d had meetings every five minutes.

INT: That’s true. MRX: And of course, the thing about this area, of course, was that we had the buffer zone of the

National Trust, so that we were liaising with the Trust all the time. What I’d like, from my point of view, is a bit more feedback from the Trust now. What are they going to do about the Mill area, you know, because once again, talking about the amenity, I think the amenity of the ??? is going to be very important, because I think the kids love the ???, let’s face it, they love fishing in it. The locals are really nice, but some of the roughs we get are dreadful.

INT: Right. How much do you think local people should be involved with a project like this? MRX: Well of course we’ve got this business about how much they should be asked and does it

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matter if we ask them if they’re not using it. It’s that sort of thing isn’t it. I mean, if the river’s redundant as far as the .... kids do still love playing by water and in the river, they’re at it all the time really, and yes, I think that’s right. I mean even now, we get farmers shouting at kids if they’re in the water or something or other and, you know, not on the land even, it’s the old sort of landowner paranoia, get of my land sort of thing, but I mean that’s gone on since Mediaeval times and quite frankly, I mean ....

INT: It probably always will. MRX: We’re pretty damn feudal at the moment aren’t we? If you found out how they’ve got

people to go on the march [for the protection of the countryside and rural livelihoods] on 1st March.

INT: Oh, I was reading about that, yes, the other day. Yes. MRX: Landowners will have their way, which ?????? That’s why we should never have

legislated against such things. People must just learn to respect the countryside, love it and get lots of pleasure out of it and things, and yes, I’m sure lots of people in the village still don’t ... as I say, the thing is that the village, it’s difficult ???? saying how much the village use it because this cross-section, as I say, of a wide spectrum of people, we have people from other countries that live here now, we’ve got people from other planets that live here, we’ve got people that actually ??? round here, and all the rest of it, and tithe cottages, we’ve got the whole spectrum here. We’ve got grossly overpaid and grossly underpaid people here, there’s no end to the variety.

INT: It would an interesting sociological study. MRX: Interesting, that’s the word. INT: I mean, just to finish off, can you think of any ways perhaps, that the consultation could

have been improved upon, with locals? MRX: I don’t think so, no, because I think once started, when the presentation was first put up, I

mean, the whole thing was mapped and surveyed. I mean they’d done surveys so that they knew what levels were here and what they wanted and where they were going to cut the river and all the rest of it, and I think to have started to ask people half way through, I think, would not necessarily have been a particularly good idea from their point of view, and I think people in the village, if anything to do with me, were a bit sort of resigned to say, well, we’ve put our trust in them basically to do a good job, and I think they did do the best job that they possibly could. I think it just needs a bit of fine tuning really, and we have to get over the idea of ... perhaps some of the ideas we had about the particular area that they thought was going to be the main flood plain. I mean there might be people that will tell you, in the village, that the actual area that they’ve flooded is just the area that they wanted to flood or something, but people say, oh look at the flood, there’s so much water down that river, you say, look xxxxxx used to take his boat and he used to row as far as he could, right across to xxxxx’s, across the fields, not up where the old river is, across the fields. This is before it was cut you see. This is going back 20 years, and then he used to come down on the flood tide. He used to go in a tin bath down the weir when they made it, we used to get a great rapid down there which was very spectacular.

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INT: Well I think I’ve covered more or less what I wanted to. MRX: I hope I haven’t talked a lot of rubbish or anything. INT: No, not at all. It was very interesting. I mean is there anything else you’d like to add or

ask me or anything? MRX: Not really, no. I mean ... I suppose I don’t fully understand what you’re doing, I mean,

raising statistics presumably for ... INT: Well, what we really want to do is to try and find out what people think about people doing

projects like this. MRX: Right. INT: In this case restoring rivers. We want to find out how local people have been involved,

what they think about what’s happened, you know, all their views basically from a cross-section of the population that we can get.

MRX: A damn good idea actually, because ... but you see the thing is, we’ve got people like

yourself going round and asking about that sort of thing, we’ve got people tinkering with the environment, with the best will in the world or what, they’re bloody messing about with it. We could do with a few more committees about seeing what ... you know, should we be poisoning our land the way we are, or grubbing up the hedges. I know there are all sorts of Watchdogs and things and all the rest of it, but you sometimes get the feeling that they’re there just as a sort of opiate of the people in a way, just so that they make people think that something’s being done. It’s like private medicine and dentistry and things like that, who actually clamps down and says you know, in the old days the inspector would come round and see you were doing your job properly, but who checks up on them now, you know, we get ... I don’t know, this free market is a bit .... I don’t know ...

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 11 - 23RD OCTOBER 1997 MRX: ... This is why I agreed to talk to ... you’ll have to stop me if I carry on too long ... as a

child I just lived for the river really. INT: Really? Yes. So you’ve always used that part of the river have you ... MRX: Well yes, literally miles that way towards Inglesham Probably not so much that way

because it starts getting private water. INT: So how would you say it’s changed then? MRX: Well I can remember it being very slow, meandering, sort of medium depth, water all the

way through, with a big head of fish, roughly guessing probably getting on for 30 years ago they actually dredged it out lower down and it had the effect of like a ditch, they took out some of the bends, which obviously it just goes through ... we lost all the deep holes on the bends. They just basically made it much more of a ditch, you know, allowing the water to get away quicker, but once it had gone away, it seemed to rob the natural depth of ... it really was a very slow gentle flow.

INT: And was that ... where you said they took out the meanders, was that part of the flood

maintenance? MRX: No, not where they’ve done the latest. This was further down towards Inglesham. INT: And that was for drainage was it? MRX: I would have thought so. It was basically dredged to get it away quicker I would imagine.

They just took out probably 150 yards of bends. It was sort of incorporating 40 or 50 yards of river, obviously I would imagine if water has a fair bit of flow it has a bigger capacity to go.

INT: ... I’ve got a range of questions, some you may not be able to answer, that’s fine, you

know, different people have different views and experiences. I thought I’d just start really by asking you whether you thought the restoration scheme to be successful and what sort of critera ... how would you measure that success .. what would you say had been successful or not successful about it?

MRX: You’re actually talking about this stretch now, like what we used to call the Seven Steps? INT: Yes. Well I think the whole ... the stretch of what they call the restoration project goes

from you know where they’ve put a couple of little foot bridges over ... MRX: The weir ... near by the wood. INT: Yes. Up there, and then down to, I’m not sure how far south ... MRX: They’ve got a couple of ... I’ve forgotten what they call it now, with the stone spills.

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INT: That’s right, yes. It’s about two kilometres, I think they said, altogether. MRX: Well, on a personal level, the top piece is literally a ditch now, it’s ... I think it would ... INT: Really? Which bit? That’s the other side of the river ... [up stream] MRX: Yes the top side, sort of Shrivenham side. Where they’ve cut in from the river, it’s now

... the bridge at the road within a matter of minutes, to my knowledge it’s really shallow. They’ve literally cut like a V-shaped ditch, and whenever it’s not in flood, it’s literally just a few inches deep. They’ve tried to make the odd little deep place, but you couldn’t expect any fish to stay in it, it’s just nothing. To be fair to them, we haven’t really had a lot of rain to see what they’re hoping it will do when it comes up and goes out into the fields, we haven’t had that rain and so we don’t actually know if that part is going to work. ... what they call the river now, it’s just a ditch, it really is a ditch.

INT: The new bit ... MRX: The new bit is literally a shallow ditch. It’s very fast until it hits into what we used to call

the back stream which is below Seven Steps, but really that was like an extra ditch part. It was to take away some of the water from the Coleshill Mill. It’s only when it actually gets to the bridge now, where they’ve actually made it deeper, but as soon as you get 100 yards this side of the river, this side of the bridge, I beg your pardon, it’s back to really fast flowing ditch. It literally ... there’s no way you could fish in it.

INT: So before they did that, was it slower? MRX: Yes, it was still fairly shallow, but it was much more what I would class as a river. INT: So do you think the project has been successful in any sense, or not? MRX: I don’t know. It’s actually, to my knowledge, they haven’t really held up the water in any

great quantity because water which finds a level, if you go 150 yards down the river and sort of dam it up, immediately behind that dam again it’s shallow until however far you want to hold it back, so you’ve got 120, 150 yards of 4ft of water and then the other side of the stones, it’s back to a ditch again. I can’t ever see that you can actually fish what I call the ditch areas...

INT: Right. MRX: You could fish anywhere from the bridge on ... it was probably reasonably shallow, but ... INT: Have you tried fishing since? MRX: I must admit I haven’t fished it myself the last few years. INT: No. MRX: But you’ve only got to look at the water to know that you couldn’t really fish in some of

the places anywhere, in places that are inches deep.

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INT: Really? So do you think ... I mean I don’t know what sort of fish that were in there

before, but do you think there’s been a reduction in the number of species or ...? MRX: Well, when I was a child London Anglers’ Association had the rights to the water, and it

was nothing to see two maybe three 52-seaters turn up on Sunday and they would have just a general walk ... you know, it wouldn’t be what we would call pegged, they’d wander. And at least a hundred anglers could ... alright, some might have to walk a mile or so and carry the fish back to the scales, but it was done regular and it was very good fishing, but quite a few years ago now there was talk that some barrel of substance or something was tipped over, fell off a lorry into the river over in Shrivenham and I can always remember seeing all the dead fish down by the Mill, and to my knowledge it was never restocked, so it literally wiped out some marvellous fishing. Now that they’ve actually diverted the river, the old stretch is basically stagnant, it’s not moving, it is literally stagnant and that can’t do the fishing or the river any good, I can’t see. From the Mill up to where they’ve actually carved out, that used to flow before.

INT: ... there was an opening ceremony the other week, they electrocuted a load of fish to show

how many different species were in there. MRX: Can you tell me where they actually done the electricity? INT: I don’t know. It was somewhere along the stretch here. ... xxxxxx was amazed at the

number of fish that were there, so I don’t know. MRX: It would be interesting to know where they actually done that. INT: She’d be able to say ... I don’t know. MRX: Maybe if it was just down by the bridge I could maybe accept that, but they wouldn’t be

able to electrify what I call the ditch because you can see the fish you wouldn’t need to electrocute them. ... If the reason for doing it is to flood the surrounding fields, if it’s going to flood them that’s all very well and good, but it’s going to go as fast as it comes up, and it’s certainly not, to my mind, going to stay wet, because literally you’ve got this fast running ditch through the middle of it. I can’t see that it can. It would be interesting to be able to get a lot of rain if it works ... I’ve got my doubts.

INT: So as far as fishing goes, it’s not been a success at all? MRX: Well to be fair, it’s not been really good the last 10 years anyway. INT: Oh right OK. MRX: But they haven’t improved any fishing, I don’t think anyway. INT: I mean, do you think it’s been successful in anyway though, or not, in your opinion?

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MRX: Well, I don’t know what they’re trying to achieve actually. If it’s purely for the wetlands, they haven’t had the rain to see if it works and even if they do I don’t think it will stay in the fields anyway. I think it will just naturally go back to the ditch and be gone.

INT: What about conservation, wildlife or recreational opportunities ... do you think any of

those things have changed? MRX: I can’t really see that it’s done anything for the wildlife. What would it benefit. We

haven’t had any water on the fields to see if there’s any other wildlife that would use it. They haven’t actually built anything or ... maybe they should have dug out ponds, natural ponds, rather than just have this ditch, because basically all they’ve done is just diverted the river and it just uses a wear system or sluice gates to control it, and just once it’s gone over the sluice gates, it’s just gone done their little zig-zag ditch to enter the river and it’s just carried on much as it did before.

INT: Do you think ... I don’t know if you’ve spoken to many other people in the village ... do

you think other people see the project as being a success or not? MRX: There’ve been a lot of people that we know, have walked along there. I haven’t really

heard anybody go overboard about it, I don’t really think they’ve seen anything to comment on really. I suppose to be fair to them, until it does flood we can’t really comment, you can only comment on what you’ve seen at the moment. There isn’t really that much to say it’s good.

INT: What would you say like visually, do you think it looks better or not? MRX: Well, it’s made an island of one piece I suppose, but being so high I can’t ever see that

part flooding. I think if it ever just gets up to the top of the banks and just creeps out to the field, as soon as you have one day of the flood gone I think it will be back in, and personally I don’t think I’ll ever see. Years ago we used to see the bottom fields actually flooding. I doubt we’ll ever see that anymore. I think it could possibly be the other way. You’ve got to accept that these people have got the brains to take the levels and know what they’re on about, but if the theory of making dams at the lower end is going to hold water back, surely it makes sense that it will only hold water back once it’s found it’s level. It can’t hold it back any further up the river because it’ll just flow over the stones. It’s like you got a spirit level. It can only hold it back till it gets to a level, so even if you went half a mile down and put some stones on the ground, it would only come back and hold it back at the river 100 yards or whatever it is, until it’s found it’s level, and then it’s back out again, isn’t it. The water will find it’s own level and I don’t think that the stones they’ve put in the cages is actually going to hold a lot of water back, if that was the theory going there. Whether it’s to put more oxygen in the water I suppose. Obviously the trees they’ve planted, I suppose ... just a few along towards that section towards Inglesham.

INT: I think the idea was not to ... was to try and let the vegetation regenerate naturally, rather

than seeding or doing anything like that. MRX: Yes. I noticed that a lot of the banks are already beginning to erode away ... certainly on

some of the bends. Already it’s getting pretty dangerous to stand anywhere close to the

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edge because it’s already undercutting on the bends, so I suppose it’ll ... nature will shape the river probably more itself and it will probably be interesting to see if we do have a flood what it will actually do to some of the bends and that. I’m not against what they’re trying to do, you’ve got to try and do these things ...

INT: Would you say you were in favour of say restoring rivers generally even if you don’t

consider this particular river ... MRX: Yes, definitely. I think they could actually have introduced some fish as well. I know

they’re trying to say that the fish have always been there ... they are and they have been ... but they’re certainly not in the numbers that I remember. To my knowledge they haven’t restocked above the Seven Steps where it got polluted that time, and that was really tremendous fishing. It could have been.

INT: Do you think there’ve been any benefits at all for yourself and other local people in the

village from the project? MRX: I can’t really see what it can ... what could it do .. basically fishing is the ... there are no

other sports, it certainly isn’t going to help any canoeing, is it? INT: No. MRX: So other than fishing, I can’t see ... I suppose maybe, if it did work, the farmers might get

some duck shooting, I don’t know. I think the only thing they could improve is the fishing.

INT: Right. OK. When you knew they were going to do it, but before they’d actually done it,

what did you actually expect to come out of it? MRX: I think I was expecting, maybe wrongly, that the river would be allowed to creep into an

area that was naturally lower than where it originally was .. I wouldn’t say a permanent wet area, but some of it was going to be boggy, that’s probably wishful thinking because the levels don’t allow it, but that was what I was expecting, and basically, to my knowledge, all they’ve done is capped off a part of the river and allowed it to escape very fast and join the river a little bit further down. I’d like to see a flood. I wouldn’t expect it to stay there.

INT: I think everyone would actually at this stage. MRX: It’s a bit naughty really to knock the scheme until they’ve had it, but I’m not that

convinced, because even when we had real floods in the main river, it was never out in the fields long, maybe a day, if it stopped raining you could take it you’d get all the water from Swindon, once you’d had a day, maybe two days if it was really bad, it would soon be going down. It never really took that long for it to go. I’ve only ever seen one really bad flood.

INT: Really.

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MRX: When it really wasn’t going under the arch of the bridge and the whole of the football field was under a foot of water.

INT: When was that? Can you remember? MRX: Oh ... probably nearly 30 years ago, and it went right out to the wood, right to the bottom

of ??? Wood. It really was ... I would have to say I was probably 10, maybe a bit more, I don’t know. It really was bad that time.

INT: As you say, we haven’t had the rain yet, but would you say ... how would you say the

river, as it is now, when it’s been done, compares with what your expectations were of what it would be?

MRX: It’s not what I thought they were going to do, but it’s probably not their fault, it’s just

when you hear that they’re going to restore the river to its natural course, first of all, you’ve got to find out ... I can remember now there were the actual twists where it is, but I’m quite disappointed at what it is, to be honest. All they done is made an island and the island will always be dry because it’s so high.

INT: OK. Do you think ... would you say that the river plays a part in your life, maybe as it

used to ... MRX: I lived on the river as a child, and being a village, all my friends and that were fishing. It

wasn’t just me, everybody ... you played football and you went fishing, because being a village, you couldn’t do much anyway. You played all the other games obviously, but I grew up and spent every sort of minute I had ... it’s only as you get older and get married that you haven’t got the time.

INT: Do you still walk along there? MRX: Oh yes, I go there with xxxxx all the time ... we do as a family walk along .. trouble is

now, it’s so overgrown, and there isn’t actually the fish you could see anyway because it’s so shallow and windey and it’s so overgrown that obviously, the further you get down, the reeds are actually touching across in places, it’s really bad.

INT: I had a walk down this afternoon. I haven’t been for about a year, it’s grown up a lot. MRX: There’s a place, it’s probably a name that was given to us when I was young, but we called

one bend, Mutney Hole. There was always this story there was a hole there, and literally it’s probably just a ditch but .. I can always remember that as being probably 8, 10 yards wide. Now it’s probably about 6ft. where the reeds have come in and the lack of water you’d have a job to get a canoe through there in some places.

INT: Do you think the river’s an important part of the local landscape? MRX: Yes I think so, any river is. There’s nothing better to look at, I think, than a river, and it’s

not just the fish, it’s for the wildlife as well. A lot of the birds that we probably see less of need rivers like this, and I think it’s pretty good for wildlife lower down because being so far away from the roads and that it’s only the farmland that actually goes to the river.

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INT: You haven’t seen any more wildlife? MRX: No but ... INT: Would you say there was less ... not including the fish say .. .but other things, or ...? MRX: I think there’s generally less bird life and wildlife everywhere anyway, because of

agriculture and the way of life anyway, so I think it would be a very unusual place for anybody to say this has got more wildlife than normal. They’ve got a chance to have wildlife there because as I say apart from farmers and very dedicated fishermen that want to walk several miles, which we did, it’s nothing to walk three or four miles in one direction before you started fishing ...

INT: Can you get all the way along the river? MRX: Well we did yes. Climbed over a few ditches and barbed wire fences, and fall over a few

times, but yes, it really was ... two hours at least before you go into work, so... INT: Do you think when they did this scheme that they took enough account of how local

people use the river in the way they designed and carried out the scheme? Do you think it affected the use at all?

MRX: I think, as I said, that the only use the river had was fishing anyway and it got pretty poor,

certainly from the bridge up to the wood, it was always shallow and not really good until you got at least two fields towards the Inglesham direction, so I don’t think they’ve actually worsened it in any way as far as fishing goes, because the head of fish isn’t there. Some of the areas that they have dug out, if the fish were there, they could be swimming for their life, if they were in some of the ... certainly in the new section.

INT: I mean how much do you then see the river as sort of local property if you like ... as

belonging to local people? MRX: Well, I’m probably biased because as I said, having been here so long, and used it so

much, I’ve seen it change so much, I suppose it’s natural to see it over a period of time even if people weren’t to interfere with it anyway, but there are places that seem to have got shallower rather than deeper, the fish aren’t there, we’ve lost so many of the trees ...

INT: Do you see it as being sort of a local river .. not actually owned officially, but in the way

of belonging to ... MRX: I would have said definitely years ago ... this is quite interesting actually ... because we

had some sheets through GSE ... reports on how the village has changed ... I actually filled that in and sent to back to her because ...towards the GSE exam, and I think the village has changed in comparison, so it’s probably not so important to the village as a whole now because there are so many outsiders. You know, when I was quite young there were lots of families with lots of children, there were more children in the village to use it as a river anyway. Times change, people have sort of moved out, and now more of the properties are rented out to ... it’s a bad word, but ... outsiders, not in a nasty sense, but they are

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outsiders, people who come from literally all over the country because they can afford the rents, whereas some of them probably can’t ... whereas I knew every single person in the village, I’m struggling now, even though I’ve been here all the time, I don’t think I could actually name all the people in the village now, it changes, and ...

INT: So before it seemed like more of a community ... MRX: Yeah, I would say it was a community, getting away from the river, we used to have

12-a-side football and cricket matches with the farmers and that, and the children, but now probably just a couple of the children are interested in fishing and that’s it.

INT: Really. MRX: I think it’s the village that changed which makes the river less important to it, whereas it

was a big part of village life then because there was more of us interested in it. I can’t imagine the children having a fishing competition between themselves now. But we did then, we did when we were young. The trouble is I can remember when it was so good, and I’m not really upset they tried to change it, it doesn’t actually affect me now fishing-wise, but the visual effect of the river is not as nice.

INT: Do you think there are any other groups of people in the village that might feel involved or

are involved in any other way with the river, apart from fishing, or anything? MRX: I’m trying to think. Not really. Most of the people that walk don’t actually use the river

to walk. Or they might walk along one side of the river ... they usually use what we call the park, and we get a bit influx of people who walk their dogs there now, certainly over the last few years.

INT: Not just since the scheme? MRX: No. These last few years, but I wouldn’t actually say they’re using the river ... I think

probably there’s been a few more people walking it because they’ve heard it and they’ve seen the signs. I wouldn’t say it’s got like a local attraction or anything. I think people have said oh let’s seen what the river’s done and they’ve had a look at it ...

INT: But not gone there specifically ... MRX: No I wouldn’t have said so. No. INT: Were you involved in any way with the consultation that went on with the scheme? I

think there were public meetings, or something. Did you go to them? MRX: I don’t think I went to a public meeting. I remember going because of working with the

Trust. We went along a couple of times. I think it was the actual opening of it. No I didn’t actually go to any meetings. I think they picked probably the wettest time they’ve had since they’ve done it is probably when they actually done it and there was so much clay on the road ... I think that was about the wettest time they had since ... when they actually thought right we’ll do it, and the heavens opened, and it made a real big mess, and

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now they’ve got it all nice and finished, let’s have some rain, they haven’t had any since, which is ...

INT: How did you find out then about the ... was it through the National Trust or ...? MRX: I believe so. I believe a land agent said something like they were going to ... the river

restoration people were thinking of doing something to put it back onto it’s original course and then basically the signs went up after a while and they just started doing the work.

INT: Did you find out what was being done? Or did you try to find out what was being done? MRX: Well, I asked the boss what they were aiming to do and he sort of ... there were quite a lot

of posters and that round the National Trust offices, not only of this restoration, but of others, aerial shots telling what they were trying to actually do ...

INT: So you weren’t involved in meetings so you wouldn’t have had any input into it? MRX: If there were any meetings, and I’m sure there was ... I didn’t feel it necessary to go along

and sort of complain ... I’m not actually that upset at what they’ve done, but I’ve still got an opinion, and I don’t think ... it’s not a success in some areas, and I feel they’re main attempt was to get these wet areas, and (a) they haven’t had a chance to see if it works, and I’m quite sceptical about if they do and when they get it, that it will. I think as fast as it comes up it will be gone. And if they’re interested in keeping wildlife, birds, etc. to my mind, it’s got to be reasonably wet for a certain length of the year, they’re not going to say oh let’s all go to Coleshill because it’s flooded for two days, so ...

INT: Do you think you could have participated perhaps more in what was going on if you’d

been inclined to? Do you think the opportunities were there? MRX: I hate saying that they weren’t, in case they were and I missed them. But I can’t actually

recollect there was ... oh there’s a big meeting at the school tonight to decide what you think, or is this going to go ahead ... quite possibly there was but I didn’t get to hear ... it sort of bypassed me if it did.

INT: There were one or two meetings held, but I don’t know how well publicised they were. MRX: Probably at one of the Parish Council meetings, possibly they spoke about it. It would be

interesting ... what would they have done if there’d been a lot of people against it, I wonder if they would actually have postponed the idea.

INT: I don’t know. ... I mean, do you think that local people, local residents should be

involved in discussions about things like this, they should be consulted about what’s going on?

MRX: I think I’m going to say no, somehow .. I think everybody’s jumped on the bandwagon

these days that you have to always get the consent from everybody ... the village don’t own the river, this might sound a bit hard but it seems these days that nobody can do anything unless you get a big show hands that everybody’s up for it and there’s always going to be somebody who says oh no they don’t want to touch this and that. I feel that

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sometimes too many people have got too much to say. And there’s me sort of rattling on. I’m just saying that why should you ... if somebody owns the river or owns the land and they think this is a good idea or whatever .... by all means ask the people ... but I don’t think you should actually have to seek the permission from people. But it’s nice for everyone to have their say, yes. As long I suppose as they’re not going to ruin it out of sight, but I don’t think anybody ever intends to do that anyway. I’m sure they’ve got all the best intentions for the river and let’s just hope it works. I just think that these days, everybody’s ... oh let’s have a meeting ... as much as if it’s my river they’re going through, and it’s not. I suppose people say everybody’s got a right to ... it is everybody’s river then, in a way ... but it isn’t because you try fishing on it .. if you haven’t got a licence you don’t fish. So it isn’t everybody’s river, is it?

INT: No. MRX: It’s whoever pays the rent and whoever owns it. Yes, I’d let people have their say, but I

just feel sometimes that too many people have too much to say. INT: So, you didn’t really know much about what happened here then with the consultation, so

obviously you can’t really say whether you thought it was successful? MRX: No, I can’t, no. INT: I mean do you think it could have been improved in any way? MRX: What they’ve actually done? INT: The consultation process. MRX: Oh, the consultation. I suppose they could have actually sent everybody ... I can’t

actually remember seeing a circular sort of to everybody. Possibly there was ... but they could have said, right, there’s going to be a big meeting at such and such if you’d like to attend ... maybe they did, but like any other family we’re quite busy and ... it possibly came in and went out, which is why I don’t like to knock it too much. I know I’ve done a lot of knocking ... let them do what they think’s good for it, you know.

INT: I mean do you think they could have done the restoration any better than ... can you think

of any ways that ...? MRX: Well I expect that whoever took the levels and that would say no. It’s easy for somebody

like me to say oh yeah you could have tried to incorporate more sort of wider areas almost like a pond or dug out a big round area, you know. I know they tried to do this from part of the old river, they took it out into what was the field and again it’s still just a ... it’s wide but it’s pretty shallow. I believe they have got one really deep piece up in the new ... part of the new piece, but I just think they could have ... if the levels allowed ... and again this is assuming they can do it ... they could have got quite a ... like a miniature sea if you like, so if any wildlife could have ... yes, a lake .. so if any wanted to it could have gone out there. Now whether this was going to take too much of the field away or whatever ... even if they could have made this big area, so even if it only filled up with the

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same depth of water that the ditches got .... 6 to 8 inches, you know ... at least it would have been something wouldn’t it?

INT: Yes. That’s right. MRX: That could have improved it. INT: OK. One of the things that they said was that they were, apart from the sort of trying to

recreate some flood plains, was trying to make the river more like a natural river should be. What would you say if I was to ask you to describe a natural river? How would you see it?

MRX: How it was when I was a child, which was lots of bends, a nice slow flow on the river, you

know. If you were fishing you could actually cast your float out upstream a few yards and it would take quite a few seconds to actually come down and go below you. We used to ... you could actually fish over a distance of say 40 yards, but you certainly wouldn’t get a stretch like that now, where you could fish, because like I say, with all the reeds coming in ... I think, basically, it is a nice windey slow flow constant, you know ... deep enough so you can’t quite see the fish, but not sort of ... something like 2ft6”, 3ft. ... would be a lovely sort of medium ... you don’t need it miles deep, but the one thing you don’t want is ... of course, you can have the odd channels. I remember one section years and years ago was literally just rumbling over stones, and there was dace certain times when they were spawning, would literally get there in their thousands and just .. cleaning themselves on the stones.

INT: Really? MRX: Mmm. INT: What about any sort of more visual aspects around the river? You said it would be bendy

and slow, but what about vegetation and landscape? MRX: I’m not too sure that you want trees. Trees look very nice, but they’re not really ideal for

on the river banks. The odd willow tree I suppose, but it was always nice before, you know, the fences weren’t always right tight to the bank. The farmers tried to pinch every inch like they are now and you’d get enough areas by the side of some of the bends which were always thistles and nettles and rubbish, for anything to get in anyway, so that end of the river was beautiful. But ... as long as you have enough rough areas ... if there were enough hedges and ditches coming down to the river ...

INT: Do you think that the managers and people who have done the restoration project ... do

you have any idea of what they might think a natural river would be like? Do you think it would similar to your ideas, or do you think maybe they would ...?

MRX: Again, it’s a personal thing, but surely a river is to sustain life and whatever ... they are

treating it more as an irrigation, I think. I don’t think that’s a natural river, that’s not what this small section is ??? natural, it’s just V-d and flat bottomed.

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INT: That’s what I was going to ask you next. How natural did you think it was before they did the project, compared to how it is now?

MRX: Well, before it was natural. The old section of the river, because it was deep in places

and shallow in other places, possibly where it has silted up over the years, but that’s natural. But if it’s totally uniform in width and depth, it’s what it looks. It’s just a drainage channel.

INT: So you’re saying it looked more natural before than ...? MRX: Yes. Well it had to, because it had all the lily pads on it and it was various depths, but

now it’s just too uniform. INT: What about in comparison, are there many other rivers around here apart from the

Thames? MRX: No ... the Thames ... that’s about it. INT: I mean .... it’s been said that we’ve actually sort of tamed the rivers now, most of the

rivers in the country, for various purposes... do you think that’s the case? MRX: I think there’s been a general idea over the years to actually withhold the water ... maybe

I’m wrong ... it seems to me they’re trying to drain everything so quick ... even the land ... let’s drain the land, get it into the rivers ... let’s make sure the rivers don’t flood. If we ever had it coming to Coleshill you could always be sure that Letchlade was flooded.

INT: Really? MRX: But maybe that was where they held it back to stop it getting further down towards

Reading and what have you ... maybe it’s those people that are managing it by keeping the weirs up or whatever ... I don’t know. To me now, as soon as they see a river, let’s get it going. So, I think they’re more into drainage than keeping anything ... in the rivers, yes.

INT: Do you think that controlling a river, by managing it, makes it less natural .. more natural

... or does it make any difference? MRX: I would say it’s less natural ... because there’s always the lack of water. I really feel ... it

seems to me ... whether I’m wrong or not ... it seems to me that the water level throughout most of the rivers is much lower ... we’re always getting told that Thames Water are putting a ban on because we haven’t had the water fall. I’m not sure we would have the rivers even if we did. Alright, you’re going to get your floods, but once those floods have drained off in two days, you’re back to your normal low rivers ... that’s just a personal feeling. I don’t think they’re as natural as they used to be.

INT: OK. Would you say that restoring a river like this is a scientific process or not? MRX: I don’t know really. I think that the main idea of this is for the wildlife. I don’t think it’s

going to have any impact at all. I really don’t. Because it’s over such a short stretch anyway ... literally, from where they’ve started to where they’ve actually finished, it’s

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about a mile straight across. ... They haven’t really done nothing in that mile to hold anything. And the other thing is, probably because it’s .. for wildlife anyway ... it’s too near the road both sides. And some people walking about anyway ...

INT: Do you think as it matures, maybe in five or ten years time, it’s going to be any better? MRX: Well this is what I said ... I hope, for their sake, that we do get a really good flood so let’s

see which areas do get wet and if there’s going to be any more natural erosion. I think the one thing that will never change, is the levels you see now you’ll get 50-odd weeks of the year, and it could get worse. You get a dry summer, I can imagine ... unless they’re going to lift one of the sluice gates ... or if they actually lift one piece out ... then all that will do is lower the next section out ... and once that’s gone over and away it’s still going to be shallow. That’s what I said, it will never hold the water back, because you’re always going to have that deep area where they put the stand in to wherever it finds its natural level, because all that’s basically doing is like ... if you’ve got a ditch and you put a piece of wood across, it sort of holds it back, makes it like a dam, but it’s still shallow at the other side of the wood, and once you’ve got your level it’s still shallow on the top side.

INT: What sort of knowledge do you think is necessary to carry out a project like this? MRX: Well obviously they’ve done it to scale, surely ... I would say, they were taking the levels,

and I’d be interested to ... I’d like to ask the people, is it exactly how you thought it would be? The people who were doing it, they must know that once you start digging here, if that’s where we’re going to have our dam then, we know how far up the river it’s going to be, so if they aim for that, they’ll be disappointed, to be honest. I think they like I said the idea of having a larger area which was ... even if that dried up, at least ....

END OF INTERVIEW

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 12 - 23RD OCTOBER 1997 INT: I’ve just got a few questions which ... some you may be able to answer, some you may not,

so really just do the best you can. I wanted to really start by asking you about how successful you think the restoration scheme has been down at the river there, and perhaps why you may think it has or it hasn’t been successful?

MSX: I suppose it has been successful in as much as they’ve done what they set out to do to

reroute it, one thing and another, but I still think it was a waste of money. INT: Right. Yes. MSX: If we can’t enjoy it. INT: Right. So you’re saying if you could have open access, or freer access, it would be better

for you. MSX: Well yes it would. INT: Do you think you would use or visit the river more if that was the case? MSX: Yes, we would. INT: You would. Yes. MSX: Because we like it down there. Now I don’t particularly like going down there ... INT: You feel intimidated by it. MSX: That’s right. Apart from the other side, I mean I don’t think anyone can stop you, on the

bridal ... on the track on the other side of the river, but that wasn’t finished the last time we ... they started again didn’t they, they did a bit more.

INT: I haven’t been down there yet, so ... MSX: We went down there and they did a bit more, we haven’t been down there since. INT: Right. So you think it’s been successful. In what ways would you say that you feel that

it’s been successful? MSX: Well it’s cleaner for a start. INT: You mean the river, the water. MSX: The water. It was all weeds and mess, unpleasant basically. INT: Any other reasons you can think of? MSX: It’s nice with the swans and the other birds that we saw down there.

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INT: Do you think it’s made things better? I know you say the access is difficult, but if you can

have access, do you think it’s made it better for recreation at all? MSX: Well it would make it better for walking, definitely, because before you couldn’t really get

down there anyway, because of the overgrown undergrowth. INT: Yes. Which aspect of the success, if you like, do you think is the most important? Which

do you see as being the most important? MSX: Well the birds, I suppose, basically. The swans, wildlife ... INT: Do you think that different people in the village see the success in different ways? You

know, perhaps some people would see some other aspects as being more successful? MSX: Probably. I haven’t discussed it with them yet actually. INT: You haven’t ... MSX: No. INT: What do you think then, perhaps from your point of view, would be the most important

benefit to you of restoring the river? Or do you not see any particular ...? MSX: [Inaudible] INT: No. OK. Do you think there might be benefits to other people though in the village? MSX: Maybe. As I say, I haven’t discussed it with anyone else, apart from xxxxxxx down the

road and we both think it was a waste of money. I mean, we thought why couldn’t they just clean the river as it was.

INT: You mean just clean it and ... MSX: Clean it and clear it, and that ... INT: Without putting the new ... MSX: Well the new bits do look nice, I must admit now that it’s growing .... the last time we were

down there it was all growing up, it was a little bit bare with all the piles of mud and goodness knows what. In the end it will probably be very nice.

INT: What, if you can remember, before, when you first heard about what they were going to do

.. can you remember what you were expecting it to be like? MSX: I didn’t give it a lot of thought. INT: No.

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MSX: We read about it in the Times I think it was before we knew anything about it. But no, we didn’t know what was going on.

INT: You didn’t know. What I was going to say was, is the river now like you thought it was

going to be, like you expected it to be? MSX: I didn’t know what to expect. INT: So you had no expectations then? MSX: No. Because until it was done we hadn’t gone as far as we’ve been since it’s been done,

so we didn’t know whether we could have got there anyway. INT: Right. So you hadn’t been down before? MSX: Well, we’d been down but only just to the bottom. We walked along the field with the dog

and ... INT: Yes. I mean, would you say that the river plays any sort of part in your life at all? MSX: Not really. INT: Not really, no. How often would you say you normally go down there? MSX: Well we’ve only been down there once this summer. INT: Right. MSX: When we had the dog we used to go quite often. She used to like jumping in ... that was

when it was the old river ... she used to like jumping in the river and ... now we ... don’t go down there as much.

INT: Do you think it plays a part in the life of the local community, local village? MSX: No. INT: No. What about as far as local landscape is concerned? Do you think the river is an

important part of the landscape? MSX: Yes, it probably is. INT: Do you think that when the river restoration people were planning and designing the

scheme, the project ... do you think they took into account the local use of the river, when they were doing their designs?

MSX: Probably not. Well I think they knew what they were going to do, and they got on and did

it. I mean, half of it was done before we even knew they were down there. INT: Really.

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MSX: I think. INT: Do you think it’s important for river projects like this to take into account the local use of

the area? MSX: Yes, it should do. But at the moment if you can’t walk along it it’s not a lot of good. INT: Do you feel that the river is a sort of local property, if you like, it belongs to the local

village, local people? MSX: I think it should. There’s lots of people that like walking by the river and having picnics

by the river. INT: Yes. MSX: I mean, personally, I would like to see it fenced off from the farmer’s field and have a path

... even on one side, even if not on two sides of it. INT: Right. Would you say that you felt involved in any way with the river or what was going

on down there? MSX: No. INT: Do you think other people in the village feel involved, or have been involved with it? MSX: I don’t know to be perfectly honest. I mean the National Trust did have an open invite to

everyone to go down, but we didn’t know about it until it was over. INT: Oh right, really. How did they let people know about that? MSX: I think they put notices in the shop, but if you don’t happen to see it ... you don’t know

about it. INT: They didn’t sort of send a letter to all tenants or anything? MSX: Well I don’t know. They didn’t to us. INT: Right. MSX: We do sometimes get ... ?????? INT: I mean do you ... I was going to say, do you think perhaps making the farmers feel more

involved with what’s been going on than you would? MSX: Yes. Definitely. INT: Did you go to any of the meetings in the village? Did you go to any? Did you hear about

what was the outcome of the meetings?

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MSX: No. INT: So would you say that you had no sort of input at all into, no commenting on the project, or

anything like that? MSX: No. INT: None at all. Would you like to have had more input or more of a say? MSX: I don’t think it would have made any difference to be perfectly honest. INT: Right. Why do you think that? MSX: Well I think they knew what they were going to do and it was going to be done, no matter

what people said. INT: Right. OK. If they were to do a similar type of scheme again would you feel more

inclined perhaps next time to ... have a say or ...? MSX: Yes. INT: Yes. You probably would. I mean, do you think many other people did have a say? MSX: I don’t know because I don’t know how many went to the meetings or anything? So ... INT: Do you think generally that local people should be involved in this sort of project? MSX: Yes, I do. I mean maybe there were, as I say, we didn’t go, so we don’t know if there were

others there to. But anyway ... INT: But on a general level you think that they should ... MSX: Yes. INT: Would you say that you were ... perhaps it’s not the right question but ... that you were

satisfied with the consultation process regarding the project? MSX: I couldn’t really say. INT: Is that because you don’t feel you were consulted? MSX: No. I wasn’t. INT: Do you think that could have been improved in any way? The way that people were

consulted? MSX: Yes. But there again, it wouldn’t have made any difference.

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INT: How do you think perhaps that it could have been better then? What do you think could have been done?

MSX: I haven’t given it a thought. We just heard it was going to be done and that was it. INT: Would you perhaps have liked maybe like a leaflet or a newsletter or something to keep you

informed? Or somebody coming round to tell you what was happening perhaps, something like that? Or maybe just a poster in the local shop?

MSX: Well there could have been, but I don’t , I go into town every day, so I don’t really see the

local shops. INT: Yes. MSX: So if there are things in there, I can’t say that it wasn’t publicised as such. INT: How much do you know about what the project really hoped to achieve down there? What

would you say were the objectives of doing the project? MSX: Well as far as I know the objectives were to reroute it to where it was originally. And to

make the wetlands for the ... down at the bottom for the floods in the winter ... INT: One of the things which they said they wanted to try and achieve was to make the river

more natural, if you like ... and that’s quite a difficult sort of term really. If somebody said to you what do you think a natural river would be like, what would you say, how would you answer that?

MSX: A natural river is just a meandering river as far as I’m concerned. INT: Right. Any other sort of features that you would expect to see? MSX: No. INT: Do you think that perhaps the managers of the project had the same sort of idea of natural as

perhaps you and other people in the village would have, or do you think they saw it as being slightly different?

MSX: I don’t know. I suppose they’re the experts and they did it as they saw how it should be. INT: Do you think it’s feasible really to talk about restoring a river to its natural state these days? MSX: In many ways, no. INT: No. MSX: Like I said before, if they’d have just cleaned it and made it how it used to be. But then

how did it get to how it was before they started it ... if they’ve done it back to where it was ... I don’t know how many years ... if someone else did it in the meantime and they did it like it was before... I don’t know.

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INT: I mean, would you say that you were in favour of restoring rivers or not, generally? MSX: Cleaning them out, yes. And restoring them, to a point, because I think it’s nice for the

wildlife and if you’d seen it before, it was really... it was just horrible. So it has improved it, definitely.

INT: Do you think it was fairly natural before they started? MSX: What I saw of it, yes. INT: Yes. Would you say it looks more natural now than before, or not really? MSX: Well it does look natural. As I said, the last time we were down there it had started to grow

over and ..... yes. INT: I mean, I don’t know about other rivers in this area, would you say it was more natural than

perhaps some of the other rivers around here? Or not? MSX: Well the only other river near here that I been to is the Thames and that’s natural enough.

Yes. I do like it down there. It is better now, I must admit. It wasn’t too bad before as far as I’m concerned, apart from the undergrowth and the mess and everything else, yes.

INT: I mean some people say that rivers in Britain have been tamed, you know, they’ve changed,

they’ve been channelised for different reasons over the years. Do you think that’s the case, that we’ve actually sort of tamed rivers now, we can control them how we want to?

MSX: Yes. INT: Do you think that it matters that we do that to rivers? MSX: I think you’ve got to have upkeep, which an awful lot of them probably haven’t had for

years and years ... they did get overgrown and everything. So yes it does need that ... INT: By sort of managing the river, controlling them like that, do you think it makes it less

natural or not? MSX: No. INT: Lots of different people have been involved with the restoration project, people with

different types of expertise in their field, would you say that restoration is sort of scientific in a sense, do you think?

MSX: Not really. INT: Do you think it’s anything else then, if it’s not sort of scientific, what would you see it as

being? MSX: I don’t know, just normal.

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INT: Thinking about it another way ... what type of knowledge do you think is necessary for

doing a project like that? MSX: I don’t know. INT: You don't know? Do you feel that the people in this case ... the river restoration project

people .... that were doing the restoration ... to what extent do you think they know how to restore rivers then?

MSX: I don’t know, unless they’ve gone back over the years and found maps or photographs or

something and tried to do it the same. INT: They did use old maps for the course of the river. Would you say that ... you may not be

able to answer this, but ... do you think they have the necessary knowledge that’s needed to do this sort of thing?

MSX: Yes, I should think so. INT: Would you say that you trust them to do what they think is right for the river? MSX: Well you have to. INT: OK. Do you think there is any way perhaps that it could have been done better than it’s

been done? MSX: I can’t really answer that because ... INT: You don’t feel you have the knowledge ... MSX: I don’t have the knowledge to answer it, no. INT: OK. That’s fine. So you wouldn’t be able to say whether you thought there was anything

else that needed to be learnt or investigated or anything like that? MSX: No. INT: OK. Well that’s about it really. MSX: I mean until we can actually walk the whole length of it and feel comfortable with it along

there ... you could say what is the point of doing it if people aren’t allowed to use it. INT: Do you know whether a lot of people feel that way as well? MSX: No. I don’t know. INT: You’re the first one I’ve been back to ...

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MSX: I dare say if we asked the farmer we might be able to do it ... but they don’t want the world and his wife ...

INT: Of course not. That’s understandable. MSX: Along there. And maybe if they fenced it it would be difficult for ... but then I don’t think

there’s any access where the cows can go down and drink anyway, but I would definitely like to see a fence ...

INT: Along one side. Yes. And do you think you would maybe go every week if there was

something there? MSX: Well we do go walking. We do like going walking, go across the fields and the footpath

because you can’t walk along the road. They have opened a lot ... well not opened them but cleared them and made it accessible, which is nice.

INT: Do you get many outsiders coming to walk around here or not? MSX: I don’t really know because being up here ... there are often cars parked along there on the

little pull-in and they go off. There’s loads of people at the back of here. INT: And they get fishermen don’t they down at the river? MSX: Yes. INT: How do they get on with the farmers then if they don’t like people walking ... MSX: I don’t know. INT: I’ll have to try and speak to some of them to ... MSX: I mean, I haven’t seen any down there lately because we haven’t been. INT: No. MSX: They said we don’t really want Joe Public ... INT: And do you think they sort of lump you within that group? MSX: Well I don’t know. Perhaps we should have asked, but ... INT: I’m surprised really. You know I can understand people who don’t live here, but I would

have thought that if it were people from the village... MSX: I think a lot of it belongs to xxxxxx and xxxxxx. You could ask them. INT: I will. I’m going to speak to them, yes.

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MSX: I mean they’re very nice people. She did make it clear that she didn’t like people walking along there.

INT: OK. It think that’s about it then really. I hope I haven’t taken up too much of you time. END OF INTERVIEW

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 13 - 24TH OCTOBER 1997 INT: Right. I mean, I’ve just got five or six different topics that I want to sort of ask you about, and

you may not be able to answer some of them, so don’t worry if you can’t. It’s just to get some idea of your views on a few things which weren’t asked in much depth in the earlier survey. And also having been a while again since the last one, to see whether you’ve changed your opinion on what’s happened. I mean I’ll start by asking you how successful you think the project’s been, or if you think it has been ... you may not think it’s been successful ... and if you do, in what way do you think it’s been a success?

MSX: Well I’m still not 100% sure exactly on what the project was to fulfill. Was it just to make the

water level better, or was it for the nature side as well? Because I went up there just before you phoned ... I went up there ... and from what I could see, it hasn’t really changed since they originally did it. You know, there’s no new flowers or anything, new wild flowers or anything been put there. And I’m not sure whether the people are actually supposed to be able to get there or not because we got to the main gate, which is locked ... find that on the bridge they’ve got the barbed wire put across to stop you going over the bridge. So you can’t actually walk across the bridge, get to the other side and have a nice walk around.

INT: No. I mean, it’s not a public right of way so I don’t know ... I know, I’ve spoken to one or

two people in the village, I know people do go and walk down there. I mean it wasn’t done, if you like, to attract more people to go and visit, that wasn’t the point. It was ... perhaps if we can come back to that a bit later because I don’t want to sort of pre-empt telling you things which may influence what you’re going to say, but I’ll certainly tell you later on about that. We’ll sort of come round to it.

MSX: Right. INT: So what you’re saying is that you don’t really know what the objectives were, is that right? MSX: As far as we were really told, it was for when it rains, just for making the water level come

down and stretching it out a bit. INT: Right. Were you involved in the consultation that took place in the village? MSX: No. When I last had the questionnaire the lady who did it knocked on the door and she said,

oh I haven’t even got your name down, it’s lucky I just dropped in because you weren’t even down to be mentioned on it.

INT: Oh right. (tape inaudible - had to change tape recorders). (Interview continues) INT: Back in business .... OK. I don’t know if you can remember, when you heard that they were

going to do something down there, they were going to do a project, I know you said you weren’t sure exactly what they wanted to do, what they were hoping to do. Did you have any particular expectations, or did you have a sort of image of what you thought it was going to be like afterwards?

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MSX: I’d seen it being done before I’d even heard it was going to be done, so ... I’d seen it being done, and then put sort of questions ... what are they doing, why have we got all these diggers here suddenly? So I saw it coming together, them digging round and so forth ... no I didn’t really have an expectation. I was just interested to see what the outcome was going to be, to see what it was going to look like afterwards.

INT: So it’s no good me saying to you, does it look like you expected it to look because you didn’t

really know what to expect... MSX: Well no, because if we’d have had some letters come round saying this is what we’re planning,

then you know what you’re expecting, but because there was nothing ... I just didn’t know. INT: OK. Would you say that the river plays an important part in say your life, or in the life of the

local village, or not? MSX: I would say it plays an important part ... you know, it’s certainly nice to have a river, but

you’re back to the access, because people want to get access to the river and if there’s no access then it doesn’t play much of a part other than just being there and knowing that there is a river there.

INT: Yes. OK. Do you think the river plays an important part as being part of the local landscape

as well? MSX: I’d expect to the older generation, definitely ... people who have lived here all their life ... it

probably does. But then I would assume that they would have rathered it stayed how it was than be altered, because, from their point of view, I’ve heard older people talking ... that’s how it’s gone, that’s how it happened, it should have stayed how it was.

INT: I’m just interested in how they think, because you say, stay the way it was ... of course it had

been changed before. That’s not how the river originally was. MSX: Yes. I know. As with anything. INT: Yes. That’s been straightened and channelised, you know, over the years, for various

agriculture and drainage purposes, so as I say, what they were trying to do was to put it back to what it was a longer time ago, before people really probably remembered it. But it’s interesting to see what people perceive ...

MSX: That’s probably what it is I expect ... A lot of it, you know, forgotten that it’s ... because I

hadn’t realised, you know, it had been changed, so I expect that’s what it is, a lot of people have forgotten, just assumed that it’s been like that all the time, and now it’s being almost modernised as opposed to restored.

INT: Naturalised, yes. That’s interesting. Do you think ... again you may not be able to answer

this, but ... do you think that the way the river was used by local people was taken into account, or taken into consideration, by the people who were doing the project? When they were designing it, say?

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MSX: I don’t really know .. by designing it they were going by previous maps, yes? So they weren’t actually ... .

INT: Where they existed, yes... MSX: Right. I don’t really know, to be honest. INT: That’s fair. I think really this would apply more to the urban river I told you about, which is

used much more frequently, for different reasons, by local people, than really the river here ... apart from the farmers obviously, they use the river. But I mean, do you think perhaps ... if we’re looking at restoring rivers generally ... maybe not just the river here ... that local use of the river should be considered when people are designing.

MSX: Yes. I definitely think it should be considered, because after all, it’s the local people who

are going to see the river most. INT: Yes, absolutely. MSX: That want the most out of it. INT: Would you say that you see the river as being local property, if you like, belonging to people

from the village, not officially belonging to them, but you know what I mean ... it’s their river, it’s my river ... that sort of thing?

MSX: No, not really, because the Trust have a lot of people come round and they seem to take a lot of

people round walking round the village and I would assume that they take them to the river, or to see the river and show them what’s being done, which does point out some more ... needing to know of your access ... and where you can go and why they haven’t consulted the villagers more, because they take these people round, they obviously know that people want to go around and have a look ... but I wouldn’t say people say, well that’s our river. It’s somewhere ... a river’s somewhere nice to go ... if you can get there. It’s nice to be near a river.

INT: That’s right. Do you think people ... or do you personally, sort of feel involved with the river

at all or what’s been done down there? MSX: I just feel a lack of understanding as to why we can’t really get to use the river more, because

you don’t mind walking the distance, but it’s a shame if you get there and you don’t know whether you’re really supposed to be there or not ... because you get to the gate and you’ve got the sign saying ‘Restriction’ or something on it, and you stand there thinking, well I’m going to climb this gate, but should I or shouldn’t I ... I’ve come this far, I want to get to the river, I’m going there, you know, but should I or shouldn’t I really be going there. It would just be nicer to know what you can and can’t do.

INT: Yes it would. Do you think there are other groups, perhaps, in the village, I don’t know, who

have more involvement in the river than perhaps you do personally? Or any other individuals?

MSX: There’s ... I think there’s set people that go to meetings, be it church meetings, or whatever ...

if you’re involved in that, then you’re the first person ... people .. to hear about things, and if

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you’re not then you don’t really hear about things, and because I’ve only been in the village four years, compared to some people that have been here nearly all their lives, you just kind of get left out and get to hear it from word of mouth as opposed to having any letters or anything. I mean, there’s got to be people who know first, because if you walk out and see certain people, they’ll say oh yes, this is what’s happening ... oh, well how did you know that then? So it’s obviously told to some people and I would assume that if you go to all the different meetings and you’re involved in some way, then you know how exactly you have become involved ... I don’t know whether there’s a group or what...

INT: Well, as I said just now, one of the ideas behind what they’re doing is to try and restore the

river to make it a more sort of natural river ... can I .... I mean this idea of what’s natural and what isn’t ... different people obviously have different opinions on that ... can I ask you, if I was to say to you describe a natural river, what would you say?

MSX: With wild flowers ... you generally have wild flowers around a river ... plenty of wildlife,

you’ve always got wildlife around the river, with frogs hopping around and all that goes natural. I’m not quite sure if the bridge looks natural.

INT: No. MSX: It looks a bit man-made. INT: What about the river itself? What would you see a natural river as being? MSX: It doesn’t at the moment look natural ... it looks... INT: No. If we’re thinking of perhaps, not this river, but if you were just thinking of say describing

what you think a natural river would be like ... how would you describe it? MSX: Well you generally get to a river and you have trees around it, don’t you? Trees ... INT: And what about the river itself? MSX: It’s very thin for a river ... it just appears to be very thin. You always expect a river to be ... a

wider river ... it kind of looks more like a stream really ... to be honest. I don’t know, maybe it was thin before, but you do expect something a lot wider ...

INT: What about the shape of the river? MSX: I’ve never been to a river that’s quite so curly as that one ... that seems to bend round on its self

quite so much. I mean, they’re not straight, they go around corners but not to the degree of corners that you have in that short space.

INT: I mean, do you think that the people ... the restoration people .. would have a similar view of

what is a natural river? I mean, do you think they would see a natural river in a different way to what you’ve just described to me?

MSX: It’s hard to say, because you kind of think, oh a river ... rivers that I’ve been to ... it might just

be because you don’t get away enough from the locks and from that sort of thing, but a river

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you can generally have a boat going down the river ... and I’d like to see you get a boat going down there, which is why I say it doesn’t really look like a river as such, it’s more streamy. But I would have said people would have agreed with that, but it’s hard to say. But like I say, it might be because when you go to a river you generally go where there’s a lock or nearer the lock ... I don’t know, rivers that I’ve been to have always been bigger.

INT: Do you think it’s something that they talking about ... restoring the river here ... where it’s

really sort of a rehabilitation perhaps rather than restoring the river, but do you think it’s feasible to talk about restoring rivers generally in the UK or anywhere really?

MSX: I think if they were desperately over flooding and needed ... you get some that really really do

over flood and cause problems, then I can completely understand them restoring it and doing work on it, but if it’s not really bad, then I do think it’s a little bit of a waste of money, because there are so many other things to be done.

INT: Right. I mean, would you say then that you think the idea of river restoration is

generally a good thing, or again, would you say that only perhaps in certain cases? MSX: It’s a good thing if it’s needed, I suppose, only in certain cases. INT: Right. So apart from the flooding aspects, the other sort of things, like nature conservation,

wildlife, increased perhaps recreation for local people ... would you say that it’s not perhaps necessary for those things?

MSX: Well as far as the wildlife goes, I mean, what you actually said is they’re not going to plant any

wild seeds or flowers in there now, they’re leaving it to do itself, then it’s going to do it itself anyway, isn’t it? So is it actually necessary, if the river’s there and it’s not flooding, then it’s going to be left for flowers and trees and whatever, because they haven’t planted any little ... any more trees around it or anything ...

INT: We’ve got some downstream I think. They’ve got it fenced off where they’ve planted a few. MSX: Have they? But I mean if it’s going to be left to basically do itself, then it’s going to get to that

stage anyway. If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. I don’t really see the point unless it’s flooding ... unless it’s really been worn down by people getting there and wearing everything down and out .. which you don’t really get enough people going there to wear it out. You get the walkers but you don’t get people ... well how do people wear it out as such ...

INT: OK. I mean, how natural would you say the river was before they did the scheme? Do you

think it was fairly natural before, or not? MSX: It was more natural because you couldn’t see it being ... you couldn’t see where it had

obviously been done. At the moment you’ve still got the vision of it being done, so it’s sort of in your mind that it’s not so much natural at the moment, but when I went down there before it was done, yes, it felt pretty natural.

INT: I mean, comparing it to what it is now, would you say it’s more natural now or before the

scheme, or is there no difference?

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MSX: It was probably more natural before. INT: OK. MSX: But then with time, it will obviously change with time. INT: So perhaps in five or ten years time, you think it might ... MSX: When it’s had a chance to set in and maybe some more bits grow around it ... INT: OK. MSX: It will certainly be interesting to see it in five years time and see how much it’s altered. INT: Yes it would. I mean, would you say compared to maybe other rivers ... you know, you’ve

just said your husband’s gone to another local river ... would you say that, .. I mean, I don’t know the other one ... the river here now is more or less natural than say some of the other rivers that you go to?

MSX: That’s quite hard to say. But I’d say it’s less natural but then that’s because where we usually

go you’ve got boats going through the lock, you’ve got all the ducks and you’ve got people who actually go in there and swim in the river ... it’s a much larger area ... it’s all surrounded by trees and lovely lush green grass. It’s hard to say because I suppose it’s more of somewhere where people will go, and they’ll go in the summer, and they’ll even take dinghies and really make the most out of it, whereas you know, you hardly ever see a soul up there other than people walking the dogs ... it’s more of a hidden away place.

INT: I mean we say that we’ve sort of tamed our rivers, particularly in this country, and elsewhere.

Would you say that you think that’s the case, that we have tamed them? MSX: Yes, possibly. Tamed them, as in slowed them down, stopped them ... INT: Controlled ... yes sort of managed. MSX: Yes, I would say they do run a lot... they go a lot better. INT: I mean do you think it matters that we’ve done that to our rivers? MSX: Well I mean if we’d never had the locks or anything like that, we’d be in disasters probably, so

I think all that’s done ... you need time afterwards to really see it and find out what the improvements are, which is the same with this, I mean it’s so near still to when it’s been done, that you haven’t really had the chance to see it working as such.

INT: That’s right. Do you think that, say for the sake of flooding purposes, that sometimes we need

to manage our rivers? MSX: For flooding purposes definitely, yes.

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INT: Do you think that by controlling rivers for flood defence and other purposes that it makes them less natural, or more, or does it make any difference?

MSX: It will temporarily make them less natural. It’s like with anything, when you first do

anything, it’s obvious that it’s been done, if you paint your wall, it’s obvious straight-away, but it won’t take long until it doesn’t look quite so obvious. It’s a time thing.

INT: Yes. True. Do you think that the restoration here has been scientific, if I can use that word? MSX: I guess it has, yes, because we are now waiting to see the results, as you said, it is a kind of

test. We’re now waiting to see if it’s going to work or not. INT: OK. In what way would you say that it has been scientific? MSX: Well, to see if it doesn’t flood or not .... I mean, that’s a test on its own, isn’t it? To see if it

floods over or if it doesn’t, to see if we do get more wildlife back to it, and hopefully it will, but that’s a test on its own, but it’s more a test of time to see how it goes, how it takes time, whether it holds out and takes any changes that do happen, because as I said, the climate could change and I know it’s always very ... when you go over there the mud is all around it in the summer. I don’t know whether it’s going to help in any way to filter the water out through the mud. It’s an over time thing.

INT: Could you say what sort of scientific knowledge is needed to do a project like that? Would

you have any idea? MSX: Not really. No. Not having the understanding of how it all works, not without the

understanding of that. INT: Right. To what extent would you say that the river restoration people have the knowledge of

how to restore rivers? MSX: Well I would assume that they know what speed the river needs to be running, and what

distance it needs to be to make that water a bit lower. I would hope they’ve studied it all in the past with water measures and all that sort of thing. The only thing I’m not so sure about is that the wildlife ... how exactly ... how long they intend for it to be for wildlife to ... whether they are planning for ducks to go through or what’s going to make these ducks come back through that part of the river, what’s going to bring the wildlife back and why. I’m not sure how they know ... they say that it’s for wildlife as well, but I’m not sure how, what they’ve done, how they’ve done it, why they’re going to go back, sort of thing.

INT: And would you say that you trusted them, if you like, to restore the river, that you trusted their

knowledge, you know, what they plan to do? MSX: It’s not so much trust, but you weren’t given an opinion anyway, in the first place. You didn’t

really have the choice to trust or not to trust, it was just done. INT: Again you may not be able to answer this, but I mean, do you think perhaps there’s still a lot

more that needs to be learned about restoring rivers?

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MSX: Yes I do, but then I suppose the only way they’re going to learn is by restoring the odd river here and there. You only learn by doing. I suppose we are the experiment.

INT: You are. Basically, you are. I think that they’ve learned a hell of a lot from doing this one

project, and the other one, obviously. MSX: It might be nice to know what they have learned. I mean, not too in depth, but ... INT: Not too technical. MSX: Yes. Not too technical, but for them to say what they now feel our advantages have been from

the work being done, so that you’re not just hearing what the villagers are saying but you’re hearing what their opinion is now, because you don’t hear that, you don’t ... you’re not going to hear their opinion.

INT: Do you think it might be a good idea, perhaps, I don’t know, if they were to say hold a ...

maybe do a presentation or something, in the village, literally saying what they’ve got out of it, whether they feel they’ve achieved what they set out to and that sort of thing? Do you think that would be useful or interesting?

MSX: It would be, yes. I mean, I’m sure they’d say they’d achieved something, but it would be nice

to definitely know what they’ve achieved, and to be able to say well why do you feel you’ve achieved that, what do you think has changed, because they’re the ones who have planned it all and they know the most about it, but they haven’t really told people what they think’s changed and how they think it’s going to change, or how long it’s going to need to get it to how it was expected to look like. That would be ...

INT: That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought of suggesting that before, but it might be quite useful to

do something like that. I’ll mention it to them and see what the response is, what the reaction is.

MSX: They’ll probably say, oh no, more work for us. INT: Yes. We’ve finished now, we’ve done it. OK. Well that’s it really. Thanks very much for

your time. (END OF INTERVIEW)

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 14 - 24TH OCTOBER 1997 INT: So you don’t actually go down to the river then. You said you’ve only been down once

since the ... MSX: Yes. It’s alright if someone comes with me, but ... I don’t go down there because, as I

say, I don’t like being mugged. INT: Yes. That’s very understandable. That’s right. OK. Well, I don’t know whether

you’ll be able to answer some of these questions, and if not, then just say so and that’s fine, because perhaps a lot of them would apply to people more that go down to the river and see it.

MSX: Well I’m all in favour of it for the plants and the wild flowers and things that are coming,

and perhaps it may entice more birds, for all we know. I’m all in favour of that. INT: Thinking about what you do know about what’s been done there really, how successful

would you say you think the project has been or do you think it’s been successful in a way?

MSX: Yes I do. INT: Can you give me any, perhaps, examples of how you think it has been successful? MSX: Well as I was just saying, because of the plants and probably ... I don’t know ... we may

even get little otters coming back or something like that which would be wonderful. INT: Yes. Yes. OK. Do you think it’s made it look better? MSX: Yes I think it has. INT: Would you say it’s made it better for perhaps recreation, people that want to go ...? MSX: Walkers, etc. Yes I think it has. The only snag that I feel that if people do get to know

all about it, we may get some townies coming that don’t know how to behave in the country, you know. That’s the only fear I have.

INT: Those things that you’ve mentioned then... what would you say perhaps was the most

important successful thing about the project? If you could pick one thing ... MSX: Well improving the whole effect of the scenery. INT: OK. Do you think other people in the village perhaps see it being successful in other

ways to you? I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned anything to you ...? MSX: No I can’t say anyone has commented greatly upon it. INT: What would you say then perhaps had been the most important benefit for you? If any,

from the project?

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MSX: Well the fact that the National Trust are improving the site all the time. And not

changing the look of Coleshill or anything like that, you know, it’s really enhancing it as it ....

INT: OK. Did you ... I don’t know if you can remember now ... when you first heard that they

were going to do the project, did you have an idea in your head of what it was going to be like beforehand?

MSX: No. INT: You didn’t. MSX: No. INT: So you didn’t have any particular expectations or anything? No. MSX: No. INT: Was that because perhaps you didn’t know what was going to be done, or ...? MSX: Yes, probably. Yes. INT: Were you not involved in any of the consultation then which went on about the project

before it happened? MSX: No. I wasn’t. INT: Did you hear about it? MSX: Well, xxxxxxxx ... INT: You’ve been preoccupied with other things ... MSX: Yes. Quite. INT: Yes, I’m sure. I mean there were meetings of various things that took place. Were you

aware that they had taken place? MSX: Oh yes, I know. But I wasn’t in the mood for that sort of thing. INT: No. That’s fine. Do you think that other people in the village had the opportunity to

comment on what was going to be done? Or to maybe make any input into what was going to be done?

MSX: Oh I’m sure they did, yes. INT: Do you think it’s important that local people in an area, for example, where they’re doing

a project like this, should have a chance to comment?

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MSX: Oh yes, indeed, yes. INT: I mean, could you think perhaps, if your situation had been different, do you think perhaps

you would have been a bit more involved? MSX: Oh ... very interested, yes, indeed. Because we used to go to many meetings and things in

the village. Yes. INT: You did. Yes. MSX: In fact I was at one last week about the Millennium. INT: Oh right. So because you weren’t involved in the consultation, would I be right in saying

you can’t really comment on whether it could have been done any better or any differently?

MSX: No, I can’t really. No. INT: OK. Thinking about the river would you say that it plays an important role in the local

community? It’s an important part of people’s lives round here, or not? MSX: I wouldn’t say so. I mean many of the villagers are not interested. INT: Oh. And it doesn’t play a particularly important role in your life presumably? MSX: Well, yes it does, because I’ve got a plan ... when I go that’s where [my ashes] they’re

going to be scattered. INT: By the river. MSX: Yes. INT: Oh right. So it will be important for you. MSX: Of course. INT: Do you think the river plays an important part in the local landscape as well. Do you see

it as being an important part? MSX: Yes. Definitely. Of course, because the very name of the village apart from anything

else ... yes. Yes. INT: Do you think that when ... again you may not be able to answer this ... when the river

restoration people were planning, when they were designing the project, do you think they took into account local use of the river when they were designing it?

MSX: Oh I think they did. Yes. Do people fish in the river?

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INT: They used to ... I was speaking to someone last night who lives locally, and he’s a fisherman, but he said he doesn’t fish there now.

MSX: Oh. Probably no fish. INT: Well he thinks ... the fishing had dropped off over the years. MSX: Yes, now that you mention it, I did hear about that. Yes. But I used to see them fishing

you see, and now for a long time I haven’t seen anybody. No. INT: I saw someone down there a year or so ago, but I haven’t been .. this is the first time I’ve

been back for a year to have a look, so I don’t know .... I haven’t seen anyone since I’ve been back again.

MSX: No I haven’t seen anyone recently. INT: I mean do you think it’s important, the way a local river is used, that that should be taken

into account when things like this are being planned? MSX: Yes, I do. Yes. INT: Do you think or do you look upon the river as being, if you like, local property ... and I

don't mean owned officially by people, but do you think people in the village or do you yourself think of it as being sort of your river?

MSX: Oh yes. I should think so, definitely, yes. I’d hate anything to happen to it, you know,

that would be detrimental or anything. INT: Right. Yes. I mean, do you feel involved with the river at all, in what’s going on, or

what’s been going on? MSX: Not really dear, no. No. INT: Do you think there are any other people, or maybe groups of people in the village, that are

more involved than you are perhaps in the river, and what’s going on? MSX: Well maybe, but with today’s way of living, I shouldn’t think they’re terribly ... they think

it’s terribly important. INT: No. No. Did you have ... I think you’ve answered this earlier really ... did you have a

clear idea about what they wanted to do down by the river? With this project? MSX: Well yes. They did mention that they wanted to restore the plant life, especially rare

flowers, wild flowers that have disappeared, and hopefully will return now that improvements have been made.

INT: Yes. And how did you hear that? Was it just through speaking to people in the village,

or ...?

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MSX: I can’t remember. I think I was talking to one of the National Trust people actually. I can’t remember whether it was xxxxxxx or not. But it was somebody like that.

INT: Yes. OK. One of the things which the river restoration people said they wanted to do

was to try and restore the river to make it a more natural type of river. If I was to ask you to describe what you think a natural river should be like, what would you say?

MSX: A natural river ... well really, I think, as a river it’s rather small, and to me a river would

be much wider than that. INT: Right. MSX: But I’d hate them to change it because it’s in my mind as part of Coleshill and I’d hate that

to change, especially when you get old and ancient like me you see, you like things to stay as they are.

INT: The same ... even when you’re younger sometimes you don’t like things to change. MSX: Especially the single currency. (break in conversation) INT: Yes. I was asking you how you would describe a natural river ... I don’t mean

particularly this one, but if you were just thinking generally ... MSX: Oh. Well I call that more of a stream really. I mean a river to me is, as I said, much

broader. INT: Yes. How else would you see it being a natural river? MSX: Oh I think it’s natural enough, but ... I don’t know how to answer that really. INT: I’m just thinking ... perhaps I can give you an example, things other people have said if

they’re thinking about a natural river, they say well, I would think it as being sort of meandering ...

MSX: Oh, yes. INT: ... maybe shallow or deep or with trees or whatever, you know ... MSX: Well I think trees would improve it, yes. And I think the meandering bit is what it is, and

very nice. INT: OK. I mean do you think that the people that have done the project, the managers and

people down there, do you think that they may have a different idea of what a natural river would be like to say the general sort of lay person?

MSX: Yes. I think they might.

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INT: Have you got any idea what you think their idea might be like? MSX: Well human nature being what it is, I can imagine them thinking why are we fiddling

about with this little stream, sort of thing. You know, that kind of thing, if that’s not a rude answer.

INT: No. Not at all. I mean, they’ve talked about restoring the river here, really what

they’ve been doing is enhancing and rehabilitating parts of it. Do you think it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring rivers generally?

MSX: Well, there are many other things that they could be doing. INT: With rivers, or other things? MSX: Well, my mind springs to medicine or something like that. But then that’s nothing to do

with the National Trust. INT: No. No. But do you think perhaps ... obviously, over the years, rivers have been

changed a lot, for various reasons, maybe for agriculture purposes or for flooding purposes ....

MSX: Well yes, I think ... oh that was another thing they brought up about the River Cole here

about ... there’d be more flooding. Well I couldn’t quite understand that. Why do they want that?

INT: The idea, partly, is to restore what they call the natural flood plain of the river. Rivers

normally flood sort of periodically, you know, once every year, they sort of come out of their banks and go over the local fields or whatever. What’s happened in the past is where rivers have been channelised for different reasons, that no longer happens, and water is taken away much quicker. If a river is allowed to flood naturally, the flood plains, the water actually stays there longer. It doesn’t go away so quickly so you may alleviate some of the flooding problems, that sort of thing, by storing the water for a bit longer. And there’s also implications for wildlife who would be attracted to that wetland sort of area as well.

MSX: Yes. I see the point there. INT: But I mean with a lot of rivers today, particularly ones perhaps in urban areas, not like the

one here, do you think it’s a practical idea to talk about restoring them? Or trying to restore them?

MSX: No I don’t. INT: No. How natural would you say the river here was before they actually started on the

scheme? MSX: Well to me it was lovely.

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INT: Right. Do you see it as being any more natural now since they’ve done it than before? Or not?

MSX: Not really. INT: No. What about perhaps in comparison with other rivers that you may have visited in the

past? Would you see it as being as natural as they are? MSX: Well, I mean, the rivers I’ve visited were up in Scotland or in France or Spain, and things

like that, so I can’t really comment on ... INT: You can’t compare them. MSX: Not really. INT: OK. That’s fine. I mean, it’s been said that we’ve tamed our rivers in the past in this

country and elsewhere. Do you think that’s the case? MSX: Yes, I think so. INT: You do? MSX: Yes. INT: Do you think it matters that we’ve done that? MSX: Well I think it has been done purely for profit. INT: You think so? MSX: Mmm. INT: In what way do you mean? MSX: Farmers, etc. INT: Right. Right. I mean, do you think that by taming rivers like that it makes them more or

less natural than they were before? MSX: Oh, I think it makes them less natural. Yes. INT: Yes. And do you think that that matters? MSX: Yes I think it does. But everything’s money, money, money today. INT: OK. Would you think that river restoration is scientific in any sense? MSX: Not really.

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INT: No. What kinds of knowledge then would you think is necessary then to carry out a project like this?

MSX: Well, engineering, land planning and all that sort of business. INT: Mmm. Any other things that you can think of? MSX: No, I don’t think so. INT: No. The people that have been doing the project then, the river restoration project people,

in your view, to what extent do you think they know how to restore rivers? MSX: Oh, I think they’re pretty professional yes. I think they know what they’re doing, or else

why would they attempt it? INT: So you think they probably do have the knowledge of what is required? MSX: Oh yes. Yes. INT: Would you say that you sort of trust them to do what they think is best for the river? MSX: Oh yes. I do. INT: Would you like to suggest anything else that perhaps we could learn from doing a project

like this? MSX: Mmm. Well the whole point is, that I made before, as long as it doesn’t encourage people

to come and tramp all over our lovely park and muck it up, that’s the only fear I have about it.

INT: So, am I right in saying that you’re actually quite in favour of what’s been done? MSX: Oh absolutely. INT: As long as it doesn’t bring hoards of people down... MSX: Absolutely. INT: Yes. MSX: I mean we don’t want, suddenly, coachloads of people coming and tramping about, they

don’t know what they’re doing, that sort of thing. That would horrify me. INT: Really? Yes. But you’re in favour generally about what’s been done ... MSX: Oh yes. INT: And you think it looks better now than before?

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MSX: Yes I do. INT: Yes. Yes. MSX: And if it encourages more wild flowers then so be it because I adore them. INT: Do you think, if you had the chance to go down with someone, would you go down there

again? MSX: Oh absolutely. INT: Yes. MSX: Oh yes. I mean, ... in the summer, yes we’ll go down. Definitely. INT: Do you have problems with access, getting down there? MSX: No, not really. Not really. Just if it’s been wet, wear your wellies. INT: Yes. It’s pretty muddy, even this morning, in places, yes. MSX: You’ve got to watch that. Yes. INT: That’s right. OK. Well, I’ve covered everything I wanted to ask. MSX: OK. INT: So thank you very very much for your time. (END OF INTERVIEW)

1

COLESHILL INTERVIEW - 30TH OCTOBER 1997 INT: I’ve got just a few topics really about the scheme and you may not be able to answer all of

these, which is fine, you know, some perhaps apply to other people more than yourself, but can I perhaps just start by asking you how you feel about the scheme? Do you feel that it’s been a success? If you do, perhaps, on what grounds would you say that you feel it’s been successful?

MSX: I suppose in a way it has been a success, around certain areas like the xxxxx where there

has been quite a bit of erosion, which is something that I had anticipated because knowing the strength of water, the water just goes where it wants to go, so I think, on the whole, yes, I would call it a success. I think it’s settled down pretty well.

INT: Can you think of other ways that you think the project’s been successful? MSX: I think it’s an important project as such to raise awareness and importance of having

things like flood plains and allowing small rivers to flood, for much further upstream to avoid flooding downstream as they had last winter on the Continent. That was a disaster and it is precisely because small rivers had been straightened out and flood plains had been taken away, so I think it’s just an awareness point that is important I think because xxxxxxxxx and it’s much cheaper to have it happen up here than floods downstream.

INT: Do you think it’s been a success for ... do you think it’s improved things like recreation or

wildlife habitat, those things? MSX: Probably, yes. I haven’t seen any of the surveys. I’m sure that there have been surveys

on the wildlife and the fauna, and I know they very consciously tried to cater for all different types of wildlife and different habitats, and I hope for them that it has worked, as it was the whole idea. But I think also, from a recreation point of view, yes, because I think it’s drawn people much more to the river. There have always been people walking and taking their dogs there anyway, but I think people now make much more of a conscious effort to go, just to have a look and see how it is.

INT: Have you found yourself going down there any more do you think? MSX: Yes. Yes. Not loads of times, just once or twice I do go down to xxxxx. INT: I mean, if we’re thinking about perhaps the different ways it’s been successful, what

would you see as perhaps being the most important one? Would you see it as being, as you said, about restoring the flood plain, or would you think it would be another thing?

MSX: I think it’s a combination of probably, in the long term, enriching the wildlife and the local

fauna and flora, and from that point of view it’s been very important. But I think also just from trying to achieve creating the flood plains and xxxx.

INT: Do you think that different people would see it differently ... would see different things as

being more important? MSX: Oh I’m sure, yes. Everyone’s got their own opinion, I would have thought so, yes.

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INT: What do you think perhaps would be the most important benefit to you of having the river

restored? Or do you not see any particular one? Or to the village as well, perhaps? MSX: Enhancement of local wildlife. I think we’re more likely to see different animals than we

had before. INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do the project ... can you

remember what your initial expectations were? Do you remember thinking I think it’s going to be like this, or that, or ...? What did you imagine it was going to be like?

MSX: I think in a way I had anticipated it to look greener quicker, because they’re allowing

things to grow naturally the raw stage has actually lasted much longer than I had anticipated it would do. The scars on the landscape are remaining much longer than I thought they would do. In a way it’s been a bit of a disappointment to me to see how long ... it’s nature’s course ... nature is ...

INT: We haven’t had much rain either. MSX: No, but it does seem so long ago actually. I think it was quite exciting ... that they were

going to try and do it ... wondering if it was going to work or not. INT: You said it took longer for the vegetation to come back. Do you think the way the river is

now ... did it ... how does that compare with your initial expectations? Do you think it’s perhaps better, or not as good as you were expecting, or ???

MSX: No. I think it is much more interesting because they’ve created so many different types

of environment around the river ... something which I hadn’t really realised to what extent of variety there could be.

INT: Would you say the river plays an important part in your life or in the life of the village? MSX: I don’t think so. It’s quite peripheral. So no, I think because it’s actually quite

peripheral to the village, it’s not central to the village ... probably the people who make most of the visits are people with dogs and kids who go fishing. And looking at the majority of the rest of the population .... you know, it’s there, but ...

INT: They don’t go there very much ... MSX: No. No. INT: Do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape? MSX: Very much so. I think so, yes. And there’d be certain features like ... the Mill wouldn’t

be there if you hadn’t had the river and things like that ... so I think ... INT: Yes. The historical aspects, really, as well ... the use of the river.

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MSX: I think also the aesthetic aspects ... water always brings a different dimension into any landscape .... however small it is.

INT: Do you think that the way that the local river is used was sort of taken into account when

the project was designed and planned? MSX: I don’t know. I’m not sure, because I know for example some friends of ours who used to

come canoeing down the river ... I’m not sure if that’s still possible now. INT: And it was possible before ... MSX: I t was possible before, yes. So now, I don’t know whether physically .... with the bends

.... INT: No, I don’t think so either. MSX: So, that’s something which may be lost. INT: Do you think it’s important that that sort of thing should be considered ... local use of

rivers, for example, when they’re ... maybe not so much in a place like this, maybe perhaps in the other scheme I talked to you about .... where it’s used quite a lot? Do you think that’s important?

MSX: Oh definitely, I think they should consider that. I think sometimes they may have to

adapt a use for the users. In some cases I know there are problems with excessive river bank erosion or disturbance to wildlife when rivers are used wrongly... Man can interfere very badly but I don’t think that sort of interference was happening here, it’s mainly people going fishing and things like that. Those things haven’t really been greatly affected.

INT: You don’t think fishing’s been affected at all, or ? MSX: I have no idea. I’m not at all a fishing person, so .... the kids still go and dangle their

lines in there and they still catch them, so ... INT: I need to speak to the fishermen ... Do you think ... Do you see the river as being local

property at all? MSX: Probably yes, actually. It’s our river, it’s the river Cole, the village is called Coleshill so

it is very much part of us, part of the community. And I’m sure that the village kids ... I wasn’t brought up here, and I’m sure all the kids have been down there at some stage in their life.

INT: I know a man I spoke to last week said he practically lived down there as a child. MSX: I think to a child something like that is very exciting. INT: Do you think people feel ... or do you feel ... involved with the river in any way or sense of

?

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MSX: Probably more so now since the project has happened, because you’re aware of what’s

been going on, and you take a much keener interest in how it’s developing. You like to know how its evolving and all that sort of thing, so ...

INT: Can you think of any groups ... any particular groups ... I know we said fishermen ... who

might feel particularly involved with the river and what’s been going on? I’m interested in going to talk to other people obviously.

MSX: I think people do a lot of walking, ramblers, those people. I’m not claiming to be a

rambler at all. But I think that’s only more because people are interested in wildlife and unless other people have got dogs and when they go out for walks they take binoculars with them for example.

INT: Are there rambling groups that come round here, walking or ...? MSX: Yes, there are. Local groups do weekends .... Also there are people walking on an

individual basis. There are quite a lot because there are lots of nice walk through the part, around the area ...that are accessible now.

INT: I spoke to someone last week who said she found access to be difficult ... blocked off the

path or something ... I mean, as far as you know, is it still reasonably open access to local people?

MSX: I wasn’t aware of anybody ... but yes, it’s possible, because I haven’t been for a while. INT: I didn’t see any signs up, so I don’t know if I was looking in the wrong place or what. MSX: No I think most ... especially to local people ... I think most farmers, if you respect their

land, I can’t really see why people would object. Unless they’ve got certain rules, you know, like don’t go into the ... where the pheasants are bred, and there are certain areas where you just don’t go ... which is fair enough, but otherwise I’ve never had trouble walking on land even if it wasn’t actually a public footpath.

INT: Were you involved at all with the consultation process that went on? MSX: No. Because we weren’t directly involved in it. We went to some of the original

meetings, which were open to the whole village. INT: Right. You did. MSX: But we weren’t ... it wasn’t affecting us personally. I think they really only originally

consulted the people who had land or who somehow were involved in it directly. INT: So you don’t feel that you had any sort of input into perhaps the design or the planning of

any aspects of it ... MSX: No.

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INT: Do you think there were any ways in which you could have participated? MSX: Probably not. I would think it would have been a nightmare for them if they involved too

many people. It must have been complicated enough as it was. I think the more people you involve with anything like that the worse it gets, because everyone has their own opinion and I people get really upset if they can’t see their ideas implemented, so ...

INT: How important then would you say it was to involve local people? MSX: Very important. I think having been involved in restoration projects from a park and

landscape point of view, I’m quite aware of how important it is to let people know what is going on and why you’re doing something, because otherwise if people suddenly realise that you’re just ploughing into the landscape, it seems quite drastic ... people can get very upset about things like that. But if they know what’s going on and if they know the reason why, what the benefits are in the long term, I think on the whole people would be much more positive about it.

INT: So perhaps, would you say you need to keep people informed but it’s not necessary for

them to have a big say in what goes on? MSX: I would say, certainly for the people who are directly involved in this, you know, people

whose land is involved in the project, I would think it’s important that they have a say, but for people like myself who live in the village but are not connected ... the thing is if people have got a very strong feeling on something, it’s probably a good idea ... they should air it anyway ...

INT: So you could have the opportunity to air it? MSX: Yes. INT: Would you say that you’ve been quite satisfied with what went on as far as consulting and

involving local people? MSX: I think they did several ... they had some public meetings and they’ve had walkabouts ... It

may be quite nice to have some more walkabouts as follow-ups to explain to us how things have evolved and whether ... for them to tell us this is the real success, this has changed, that’s happened, these insects, birds, whatever are coming in, this has failed ... I think it would be really nice to know from them how things have ...

INT: Somebody mentioned that last week and suggested that they had maybe a meeting or

something, you know, to get people to come and say explain what’s happened, what they’ve found and ... you know, whether what they expected has happened, or not. So you think that would be a good idea.

MSX: Well, say for example, I think it was last summer when they did some more work which ...

I heard it was because they actually ended up having some more money left over than anticipated.

INT: They got some money from the lottery...

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MSX: Oh right. Well I think something like that would have been nice to actually know what is

going on. We could just hear machinery going on ... Most of the people in the village don’t really know what happened there, and why there was this extra bit going on.

INT: OK. I’ll mention that to .. . so you don’t feel perhaps that the consultation could have

been improved at the time, but you think perhaps now it could have carried on a bit longer perhaps.

MSX: Yes. INT: One of the things that .... one of their aims and objectives was to make the river, as they

put it, more like a natural river should be. Can I ask you, how would you define a natural river, how would you describe a natural river?

MSX: I certainly wouldn’t call this a natural river now, because it’s entirely man-made. They’re

trying to imitate a natural river. I don’t know, it’s not what I had in mind. I was surprised to see how sharp the bends were, for example. You know, rivers naturally meander ... the ones that I’ve seen, on the whole, have been ... the bends have been much more generous, the meanders generous ...

INT: Although they say that that was on the original old meandering channel. MSX: Yes, I know. So it is quite possible that that’s how it was. But ... no I think, it’s difficult

to tell, knowing that it’s entirely man-made it’s very hard to think of it as being a natural river.

INT: Yes. Would you say it was more natural before they did the scheme here? Or not? MSX: It was to my mind, until I really started thinking about the whole issue ... because I’ve

only been here for nine years, so I’ve always known it like that, but I know that if one was different but it isn’t any more natural today than it was before.

INT: Going back to this idea of what a natural river would be like, what sort of features would

you expect to see in a natural river environment? MSX: Vegetation, waterside planting of trees, scrub ... and wildlife to go with it. No, not really. INT: What about the river itself? MSX: Just clear ... see the river bottom, it’s got much more vegetation, it’s got wonderful layers

of moss and centuries of deposits, that sort of thing, so that’s still not really quite there yet.

INT: Do you think the managers or the restoration people here would have perhaps a different

idea of what a natural river would be like? MSX: Probably, because they’ve been involved with rivers much more than I have. They’ve

seen much more than I have.

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INT: Do you think it’s really feasible today, considering the changes that we’ve made to rivers

and things, to actually talk about restoring a river to its natural state? MSX: You mean, using the words ‘restoring a river’? INT: Yes. I mean is it ... can we really restore rivers to their natural state? MSX: I don’t know whether the water would ever allow you to restore something completely

back to its original state. I don’t think it would even be possible to recreate it exactly as it was. I don’t think that is possible, because you know it’s a living medium, it’s something that works and changes ... the vegetation around rivers works and changes ... with natural rivers it would gradually establish, whereas this has been cut out to allow vegetation has to establish because in a natural environment things have gradually come in over centuries, so ... I think restoration is maybe not the word to use ... I mean, something like reinstatement, or ...

INT: Rehabilitation or enhancement, or something? MSX: Yes. INT: Yes. Do you think that the objective though of the sort of thing they’re trying to do here

is a good thing? MSX: Yes I do. Maybe not so much to ... everywhere all over Europe ... maybe we should

start remeandering the small rivers ... but if anything, it may actually stop people from straightening out rivers and letting rivers do what they’re supposed to do. Nature is very clever ... it’s got all sorts of systems worked out, it’s only when man wants to interfere, someone down the line will screw things up, and again, it’s this raising of the awareness of the problem which I think has been a very important issue in this, and hopefully in future whenever somebody says well we’d like to have some money because we want to straighten out this river, they’ll say well don’t, because if you do this here we’re going to have a problem down there.

INT: Yes. I mean it is really a learning process. Very much so. How would you say ... I

don’t know about other rivers in this area, but how natural, if we can keep using that term, would you say it is here now, as compared to other rivers that you know?

MSX: I think that in a lot of instances rivers have been managed over the centuries because they

are part of the transport system. So I think that many of the rivers that we see today are actually somehow manhandled and aren’t natural at all any more, certainly within Europe. The majority of European rivers have somehow been interfered with, banks enforced or bends straightened out or works have been introduced, there is a whole system of water management which in itself alters the character of a river, if you think of the Thames, you’ve got locks, you’ve got barriers, certain tidal systems change water levels.

INT: It’s been said we’ve sort of tamed our rivers. Would you agree with that? MSX: Yes, very much so. We’ve tamed our entire landscape.

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INT: That’s right. Do you think that matters? MSX: I think we should try and interfere as little as possible, but the interfering has happened.

It’s something we can’t undo any more. People still don’t seem to have learned from nature that the more we tamper with it, sooner or later we’re going to have to suffer for it, and it’s such an amazing system which has been wiped out.

INT: I think perhaps you mentioned earlier that the floods in Europe last year more people are

starting to realise the importance of rivers. MSX: That’s right. INT: Would you really think that controlling or managing a river makes it more or less natural? MSX: Well the more you control it the less natural it is. It’s just small things like opening and

closing a sluice gate, and those sort of things that takes completely away the naturalness of it.

INT: Do you think that the project here ... the restoration project ... has been scientific? Would

you say it was a sort of scientific ....? MSX: I think so, yes. I know that they put in a lot of study prior to ... a lot of research prior to

the actual project ... it’s not as if they said oh well let’s just go out there and ... try and dig out the old channel again and see how it’s going to evolve, but I know they were going to undertake quite a lot of follow up studies to see how things evolved.

INT: That’s right, sort of detailed monitoring .... What kinds of scientific knowledge would

you say was needed for ... to do a project like this? MSX: What would someone need to know to be able to carryout this ...? INT: Yes. What type of knowledge would be needed? MSX: There are different aspects ... the ecologists and the botanists, people who know what

effect it’s going to have on the local wildlife and the local flora, but also the river engineers .... knowing where the water is going to .... so I think generally, from an engineering point of view it’s very important to calculate the effects on the soil, the gradients of the banks obviously .... As a landscape architect ... water is always one of the things people are afraid of touching ... because it is something that is very tricky, water features are so easy to go wrong.

INT: Do people avoid using it where possible? MSX: Well, not really, because they’re trying to xxxxx but it is ... I personally find a lot of water

is wonderful, in the form of a lake or a stream or whatever, but it is something you need to ... with a lake the fact that it can leak or go green, gungy and smelly - it;s tricky. As a habitat it’s quite difficult to establish, I think.

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INT: That’s true. I hadn’t really thought of it that way but yes. So you were saying, you see it as being multi-disciplinary ...

MSX: Yes. Something which I think one professional on its own would find very difficult to

tackle. INT: To what extent do you think that the people here, the people doing the restoration, know

how to restore rivers? MSX: I think it’s the first time they did anything like this, wasn’t it? I understand that people

used to work for the NRA and then similar organisations, I think they would have learned ...

INT: Yes, they’d actually all worked on restoration before. What they haven’t done is the

detailed monitoring, before, during and after .... MSX: But they must have been on a high learning curve as well .... INT: Yes. Absolutely. That’s right. Would you say that you trusted them in a sense, to

know what they’re doing to improve the river? MSX: I don’t know if I would fully trust them [telephone rings] ... INT: Yes, I was just asking how much you felt you sort of trusted them to know what they were

doing, to sort of take care of the river if you like? MSX: I think of all the people they are probably the ones in the best position to do it. But I

think because it’s such an unknown quantity, it doesn’t matter however many engineers that calculated, working things out on paper, by the end of the day they just have to sit back and see what is actually going to happen. You can’t do anything that is involved with something like plants. But there are so many different conditions influencing the development of these natural situations that there is no way of controlling it. You can have vast amounts of rainfall or very little or .... you can have storms and .... very severe winters that kill off things, and ....

INT: Yes. I mean do you think, from your point of view, that there was anything that you think

could have been done differently, or been done better than has been done? MSX: Probably not. I know very little about what has happened after ... once the digging and

everything had been done ... I don’t know how much has happened any more since then, so we haven’t really been, as far as I know, there hasn’t been a follow up consultation any more, we don’t know what extra things happened, so ....

INT: Maybe ... they didn’t do any planting or anything ... and it’s been suggested that maybe

they should have done ... so that the vegetation would have regenerated more quickly... MSX: But it would have made it even less natural than what it is now ... I think the approach

they’ve taken has been minimum interference, just sit back and let it happen, whereas if they had planted all sorts of things, it would have made it even more artificial so I think

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from our point of view, I know people are always very impatient when it comes to plants ... want immediate results. I’m patient enough to sit back and let things grow themselves.

INT: Do you think that anything else needs to be investigated or do you still feel there’s much

to be learnt from this sort of process that they’ve been doing? MSX: I’m sure the learning process hasn’t stopped yet. I’m sure it will carry on over the next

few years, continue monitoring the situation as it happens. They would be silly if they didn’t ... a waste of money if nothing else ... but I’m sure that provisions have been made to continue the monitoring for some time yet.

INT: Yes, that’s right. Indefinitely, really, because this is the first sort of detailed .... that’s

right. Do you think the river really looks good with the new meanders now? Some people have said that they didn’t think it looked very good. Somebody said it looked like a ditch last week to me. What do you think, aesthetically... ?

MSX: It has made the river look far less important than it was before ... the river channel is

actually remarkably narrower in quite a few places ... and quite shallow as well ... so it has made it a much smaller river now than it was before. But, no, I don’t think it should have been disappointing.

INT: So you’ve basically been in favour of what has been carried out... MSX: I think so, yes. INT: Right. OK. Well that’s about it. Thank you very much for your time. MSX: Pleasure. That’s OK. INT: It’s interesting to get those few points in a bit more detail.

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 16 - 30TH OCTOBER 1997 INT: Just to start with really, can I ask you whether you think the restoration project has been a

success, whether you think it’s been successful, and if you do think so, in what way do you think it’s been successful.

MSX: Has it been successful? It’s nice to see the river a bit more natural, I suppose. I’m not

sure we know whether it’s been successful or not really, because we haven’t actually been down there for a while, so we don’t know how well it’s flooded or whether there’s any ...

MRX: Well that’s what they actually set out to do, was to try flood the fields, but that’s not going

to happen anyway. INT: You don’t think so? MRX: No. INT: Why don’t you think that? MRX: Well I don’t think the levels are right anyway. INT: Right. MRX: The water’s too low in the new river to do that. INT: Right. MSX: It’s nice to see it more natural and it would be lovely to see more wildlife there now, which

I suppose we’ve had a bit of extra, haven’t we, we’ve had swans breeding down there and what not, but we haven’t been down there for a while to see what’s going on down there. Come this winter, it might be nice to come and see the ducks down there.

INT: Do you think it’s been a success just by sort of the way it looks? Do you think it looks

better than before or not? MSX: Parts of it do look nicer. The new bit up by ... MRX: Where they started the top end ... MSX: That’s nice. MRX: That’s the nicest part of ... MSX: They’ve got a curve that goes through the old line, through the willow trees ... that’s lovely,

yes. The bit that they’ve got as a conservation area. That’s nice. MRX: The actual bit they first dug out is a new ... like on the old line ... that’s just a glorified ditch.

There’s no other word for it really. I think, by putting in the new bit, at the far end there ...

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by doing that, they’ve transformed the old river that comes down to the Mill, they’re just stagnated it ... there’s no flow on it. That’s really ruined that part of it.

INT: Do you think it’s a success perhaps as far as people being able to go there for recreation, or

anything like that? MRX: Oh yes, but then that’s what they set out to do .... to encourage people, I think, to walk

along the river ... well not actually encourage them, but it’s there for them to walk along. But then recently there’s been some signs put up.

INT: Yes, somebody else told me that, but I haven’t seen any. MRX: There’s one on one of the gates on the park side, and there’s one on a gate by the football

pitch. INT: Right. I see. MRX: But I work for the people that own the land you see. INT: Is this the National Trust? MRX: Yes. INT: Right. So was it on their orders that the signs went up, or ... MRX: Yes. We don’t do that off our own back ... that’s the National Trust. MSX: So it’s conservation areas ... MRX: My boss told me to put them up. INT: Yes. It’s interesting. Somebody else said there were some signs, and I didn’t know who’d

put them there. MRX: I mean I think the wording was wrong ... because it said ‘Conservation Area - Keep Out’. I

mean if they said something like ‘Conservation Area - Dogs on Leads - Please be quiet’ or whatever ... not keep out.

MSX: Yes. Something a little bit politer. MRX: Not when they first set out being beneficial for the village people to go and walk along a

nice new river and that sort of thing. They’re more or less telling them to stay out now. INT: So the signs are still up are they? MRX: Oh yes. INT: Which side of the river are they on?

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MRX: Well, if you walk in through Coleshill Park, down to the river ... INT: Right. I haven’t been ... I’ve taken the other side ... MRX: Then you walk along to the far end, you go through a gate, down to the bridge, the new

bridge that they put in .... there should be one on that gate. INT: OK. I’ll go up tomorrow. MRX: And the other one is ... if you come in by the football pitch and walk to the far end of the

football pitch and there’s one on a gateway there. INT: Is there? Right. And that’s to stop anyone is it .. the idea is to stop anyone going in, or ? MRX: I don’t know. I don’t really know what the idea was to be honest. I mean there was an

awful lot of people come out of the village, coming from out of town and walking dogs, which maybe there still is ... but I think it’s stopped a little bit. Only I think it was put there more for that rather than the village people.

MSX: I mean it was nice ... it was there at the time that the swans were breeding, because it was

only just at the other side of the bridge that the swans actually bred this time, so it didn’t matter ... I mean, we stood by the gate and we could see the swans, so it’s probably nice in that way, but ...

MRX: I mean really people from out of the village shouldn’t walk along there really ... because it’s

private property, I mean there’s no tow path or anything like that ... I mean you can’t put a footpath, you can’t walk on it ... but there is footpaths across the park but not by the river. I mean the farmer could come along and tell anybody to leave.

INT: Somebody else in the village said that they’d felt that they should have the right to be able

to walk along there and now they feel they don’t have that because the signs have gone up, and they didn’t know whether they could still walk along there or ...

MRX: I don’t think any farmer or member of the National Trust would stop village people ... I

think it’s more for people from outside the village, because there was a hell of a lot of people coming into the village on a regular basis.

INT: Was that before the project or ...? MRX: No not before ... it was sort of during and after. INT: Do you think it was that that attracted them or ... ? MRX: Probably yes. MSX: There have been a lot more people in the last couple of years or so than there were before? MRX: They’d not have to walk in the river though.

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INT: Yes. I suppose. I mean obviously you’re going to get people that ... scientists or people that want to look ... but I mean ...

MRX: Yes, well we know about those sort of people ... it’s people from outside the village that dog

walk really. INT: What would you see as being perhaps the most important aspect of what’s been done as far

as the success of the project, in your opinion? MRX: I think it’s nice to see the extra amount of water on the surface. There’s certainly more

water to be seen than there was before. INT: Anything else? MRX: The trouble is we take things for granted I suppose because we live here, that’s the trouble. INT: Yes. Everyone does that, wherever they live. Do you think other people perhaps in the

village would see other things as being more successful than those that you’ve mentioned? MSX: I wouldn’t have thought so, no. INT: I mean what would you say, if any, was the most important benefit for you? Or has there

been any? MRX: I don’t think there has been anything. I don’t think it’s been there long enough ... we

would like to see the wildlife and the birdlife going back ... we’d like to see a lot more going back. And we would find that thrilling to go down and find a whole flock of waders or something that had never been there ... or hadn’t been there in that quantity before. We enjoy walking down there and seeing .... you know, just the odd kingfisher whizzing up and down the river is sort of thrilling for us, it might not be for others. That’s what we would ...

INT: So the sort of wildlife aspects of the river, perhaps, for you. Can you remember when you

first heard that they were going to do the project, did you have any particular expectations .. did you have any sort of image about how you thought it was going to be?

MSX: No, I don’t suppose we had much of a picture, but we did expect the second channel that

they dug out to be wider. We expected to see like a second river, basically. We were not shocked so much, but a little bit sort of amused, I suppose, to see the small channel there.

MRX: If they’d have dug the channel that they dug out on the old route ... if they’d have dug that

out the same width and depth as the piece that goes round through the willow trees, the horseshoe shaped piece, I think it would have been a better project.

MSX: Yes, I mean they call it a river restoration, you expect to see a river ... MRX: It’s not, it’s just a ditch.

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MSX: I mean I know down the other end it’s starting to make it’s own way isn’t it ... dig into the bank and under it and everything, but it doesn’t appear to be doing anything, the last time we were along there, to be doing anything at this end.

INT: I mean how would you say that it compares with your initial expectations now ... would you

say perhaps it hasn’t lived up to what you expected it to be? You’ve been disappointed or not necessarily?

MSX: Parts of it are disappointing ... other parts .... MRX: They said that the fields were going to be under water for parts of the year, and there’s no

way that that’s going to happen I don’t think. INT: I mean do you just think that maybe they’ve been unlucky because they haven’t had any

rain really to speak of since they’ve done it. MSX: Well no, because the field flooded, the first field as you go into the park, that flooded last

year, well it floods nearly every year when we had heavy rain. I mean it come up to those levels again, if not a little bit further this time, because you pegged it didn’t you, and we’ve got photographs of it, but the actual river, where they’ve dug out the channel, that didn’t ... I mean it came up to the top probably ... of the channel ... but it doesn’t flood anywhere. So we all expected ... everytime there’s a few inches of rain, let’s go and see what’s happened ... nothing new had happened.

INT: What part, if any, would you say that the river plays in your life? Does it play much of a

part? Is it important in any way? MSX: No. I mean it’s important to us that we’ve got it there to walk if we want to, and because

we’re interested in wildlife and birdlife it’s nice just to be able to go down to the bottom of the road and see a lot.

INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the life of the local community generally? MSX: I wouldn’t say so. I mean it’s not like Letchlade or anywhere where you can have yachts

or boats and canoes. I mean I know a few people do go there, or used to go there canoeing, but it’s not that type of river. I don’t suppose it ever has been. I mean it used to be ... you used to go swimming there didn’t you?

MRX: Couldn’t do that now. MSX: There are kids I know get down ... the older children get down on one part paddling in the

summer, on one of the new bits don’t they, so ... no I suppose it’s just something that’s there.

INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the local landscape? Do you think it’s an important

part of the local landscape or not? MSX: I don’t know. It might be more now, because there’s more of it, and if it was flooding at

the place that it should, so...

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MRX: It’s nice to hear the water running in places. INT: Right. You couldn’t do that before? MRX: No. You couldn’t. Maybe round by the Mill, where it’s coming out of ... MSX: It’s nice to be able to go down and move around and hear river water. That’s nice to see. INT: Do you think that local use of the river, the way it’s used by local people, do you think that

that was taken into account when they were designing and when they were planning the whole project?

MRX: I think they considered everybody when they were planning it. There were guided walks

down the river at times, so everybody could understand what was going on, and if anybody had any worries they just .... put opinions forward.

INT: Yes. MSX: The people, like farmers, were the most affected, aren’t they? Because they had to give

up part of their land. MRX: Well, you’re only talking about xxxxxxx farmers... MSX: They were obviously consulted and must have been reasonably happy with what’s

happening. MRX: I don’t think it affects the farmers too much. Mr xxxxxxxx at xxxxxxx. I think he was

the one who was more involved than any of them. I think there’s xxxxx farmers who were involved.

INT: Yes. Right. Do you think it’s important that the way rivers are used by local people

should have been taken into account when they’re doing projects like this. MRX: Yes, they should be shouldn’t they? MSX: Well yes. Although I think that anybody that might be affected by any kind of change

should be considered ... I mean not necessarily consulted all the time but at least considered how they’re going to feel or how it’s going to affect them.

INT: Yes. MSX: Out of courtesy apart from anything else, you know. You can’t ride rough-shod over

everybody and expect them to go along with what you’re doing. INT: How much do you see the river as being sort of local property? Sort of belonging to the

village? MRX: I don’t think they look at it like that. Not that it belongs to the village as such.

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MSX: I don’t. I’m still relatively new, like compared to ... you know, your mum and dad, you

know ... INT: Do you feel involved with the river at all in any way? MRX: I don’t. MSX: No. MRX: Apart from walking down there occasionally ???? INT: Do you think anyone else in the village feels more involved with it than you maybe? MRX: I don’t think there’s even many people as used to go fishing. MSX: No. MRX: They’re the people who are going to be more involved, more than anybody, I suppose.

Fishermen. I mean perhaps there’s been the odd child going down once in a while. Fishing. I don’t think there’s anybody else who uses the river.

INT: Do your children go down there? MSX: Not on their own. No. We’re always with them or ... they’re with another adult if they do

go down there. And that’s only walks ... these two don’t go down there paddling. MRX: It’s more for the wildlife than anything. MSX: Well that’s what we like to walk down there for. MRX: That’s the only thing that we go down there for really, to see what wildlife there is. We’re

all interested in that sort of thing. INT: Have you seen much more difference since .....? MRX: I’ve seen more snipe recently. I mean you can be in one place, you can go and see at least

two every time you go down there. So ... and herons ... there’s been more herons .... normally five, between five and seven at one time ... plenty of ducks ... at one end ...

MSX: A few geese down there. But we haven’t been down for ages, have we? I don’t like to

walk down there because ... when the cows are out in the field. MRX: The occasional kingfisher ... but then they were always along the river anyway. MSX: But I hadn’t seen one until the river restoration started and I actually walked down there ... MRX: But they’ve always been there... it’s just being in the right place at the right time. It’s not

as if the project brought that ... We have seen a lot of fish there.

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MSX: We have, yes. INT: Oh right. In any particular stretch ... or ? MRX: Well we tend to walk this stretch at this end you see, not the bottom side. MSX: But we have, haven’t we? Only recently we went for a walk at that end didn’t we? And

there were loads in the middle of the rivers, on the bends basically, where you could see the bottom clearly ...

MRX: There’s definitely more fish there. MSX: Shooting up and down. Only small ones, fairly small ones ... but there were a lot there.

The first year, last summer, when we walked there were lots of small ... INT: You said that there were walks along the river when they were telling people about what

was going to happen ... were you involved in any of those, or ...? MSX: We went on the first one, didn’t we? They’d already started the work, hadn’t they? There

were diggers down there and they’d done a level there, and we had a guided walk. MRX: At lot of it was mostly tying up where the river was going to go - the meanders and all that

sort of thing. INT: Did you go to any of the meetings that they had in the village? MRX: We went to the village hall ... MSX: No. They were just Council meetings weren’t they? I don’t think they ever actually had a

meeting ... INT: I think they had a public meeting - at least one, yes. MSX: Did they? Yes. We never actually went to that one. INT: Right. So you weren’t really involved in the consultation process then... MRX: No. INT: Do you perhaps remember how you heard about it? MRX: Probably through the National Trust. Yes. INT: You weren’t sort of informed via a letter or anything ... ? MRX: We may have had one letter from the Trust.

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MSX: I can’t remember, because we’ve had several surveys come through ... what we thought about it or how we were disturbed by it, you know, so ... we never actually had anything from the people who were doing it. I’m sure most of the information we got was through the Trust. We never actually got any information from the river restoration project.

INT: So you can’t really say you had any chance to sort of have an input into the design or what

they were going to do or ... ? MRX: No. MSX: No. I should imagine by the time anybody was consulted ... MRX: That was all worked out already .... MSX: Yes. I think they already had their plans. INT: Right. MSX: I suppose that if we’d objected to something we could have said so when we had the guided

walk and so on, but then I presume that the farmers would have already been consulted and they were reasonably satisfied.

MRX: They were looking at plans put forward by the people that were constructing it, yes. That

would have been sorted out with the National Trust and the farmers. INT: Do you think there were other ways perhaps you or other people could have been more

involved? Would you have liked to have been? MRX: Not in the actual design of it, I don’t think. MSX: It probably would have been nice to have had more information about ... you know, have

something actually in writing rather than you just hear somebody tell you something ... so that if we did have any questions at any particular time ... but I’ve never actually had anything in writing about what they were doing, why they were doing it, or anything ... it was just, you know, what we were told. So I mean I know they had guided walks for certain groups of people, different I suppose projects and things that were interested in it, and I presume that they had some kind of information pack or something. I mean, it would have been nice for those of the village that were interested to have been included in that as well, because we only know what we’re told.

MRX: Have you seen any information packs? INT: No. But that’s not to say there haven’t been any. MRX: Well I’ve got some. Although I’ve got a spare one upstairs. INT: I haven’t seen a pack ... I’ve seen a leaflet. MRX: Well they call it a pack ... but that was after it was finished.

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MSX: That was the press release then, wasn’t it? When they actually opened the river in

September, so I mean it was only the one person from the village, and she was the Parish Councillor, who was included in that. We felt that, you know, they’re having a formal opening with the press and everything else, why isn’t anybody in the village included. Nobody ... there was no open invitation, I mean, a lot of people work in the village during the day, a lot of the older people wouldn’t be able to walk down there anyway, but nobody was invited. Well we weren’t either. I mean, I was working, because I work for the Trust as well, so I wouldn’t have been able to go, and I was involved in getting things organised for the people that were here, and everybody in the office had different tasks to do, well everybody ... you know, cleaning the barn out or whatever, ready for the day, and it was only one person, the Parish Councillor, that was actually there. And that seemed to be ... well I don’t know how other people felt. I thought it was a bit off.

INT: I mean, yes ... even if you couldn’t have gone, do you think you would have liked to have

been invited? MSX: Yes. You know, it’s part of the village, or it’s supposed to be part of the village, and ... I

know the farmers were invited, as directly affected by it, they were invited, but nobody else was. And ... I don’t know.

MRX: I think there were about 50 or 60 people invited. INT: Do you think other people felt that way in the village, a bit sort of resentful that they

weren’t invited? Have you spoken to anyone? MRX: I suppose, in some ways, I was a bit concerned about not being invited, so was my father.

Because we were at the National Trust and we helped with some things during .... MSX: Well, when they did the first opening of the gate at the top, wasn’t it, when they took the

boards away and let the water run into the new piece that they’d dug out, the village was included. I mean, one of the lads across the road was allowed to remove the board and do the actually opening.

MRX: But that was an unofficial opening. MSX: Yes. MRX: The actual opening of the river was supposed to have been this year, you know, like just

recently, when they were going to try to get Prince Charles to do it. INT: Were they? Oh. MRX: Yes. There were several people in that sort of position who were asked and turned it down,

so ... INT: So they didn’t get anyone in the end then to do it?

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MRX: No, they couldn’t have done. Oh, the Director General from the National Trust came down.

MSX: Oh yes. Oh of course he did, yes. MRX: He must have been the main one. MSX: But I think to be honest, by the time the day actually happened, ?I was fairly well ... I don’t

care whether it happens or not. MRX: As soon as the work was finished it should have been opened, end of story really. INT: Why do you think they left it so long? MSX: I don’t know. I can’t imagine that ... well, I don’t know whether there was any reason

really for leaving it, I mean, whether they just wanted to leave it to see what happened ... MRX: I suppose they let it settle down first. INT: Yes. MRX: And I suppose there were ideas of getting someone like Prince Charles to open it. But in

the end he couldn’t anyway, I suppose. INT: How satisfied would you say that you were then with the consultation process? Do you

think it was quite successful or not? MSX: Well we weren’t consulted before anything actually happened. We only ever knew

anything once it had been decided that it was going to happen. I suppose, because we aren’t directly affected by the river. Those that one would probably have been consulted right at the beginning, but ... I suppose once the work started we were asked several times about noise levels, and disturbance and that sort of thing, but that’s about as far as the consultation went really. Was there too much traffic coming through ... you know, sort of works traffic? Was the noise level, when you were in your home, and things like that.

INT: Do you think it could have been improved in any way then? MSX: I mean, it would have been nice to have had the information given to you so that you knew

exactly what was going on, but I mean we found out soon enough. I mean, because we both work round there you tend to hear more than others, but ... I suppose we’re happy enough with what’s happened.

INT: Do you feel you’d like to know now more about what has actually happened, or whether

they feel that it’s been ... it’s done what they thought it would do or ...? MSX: Well it would be nice to know if they think it’s been successful because I know some parts

of it weren’t as good as they should have been, so ... yes, it would be nice to know whether they think it’s as successful as ... but perhaps it’s too early now for them to say, because we’ve had no clear results yet of any flooding ...

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INT: Do you think that generally ... or to what extent do you feel that the local people should be

involved with this sort of project that’s going on? MRX: They certainly should be kept informed. They should know it well in advance. MSX: I mean, not necessarily every little decision, otherwise it would take forever to do anything,

but it would be nice to be kept up to date with what’s happened, you know, what’s going to happen, and the results ... whether it’s worked, or hasn’t worked, or whether something will have to be altered because it’s not working ...

INT: One of the things that the river restoration project people said that they wanted to do was to

restore the river to make it more like a natural river. If I were to say to you describe what you see as being a natural river, what would you say, what would you describe as a natural river?

MSX: Plants growing on the verges, some established trees or bushes, willows, wildlife, obvious

wildlife ... not just the odd bird flitting about but obvious signs of ... there wouldn’t be too many open spaces, banks, ...

MRX: Which is what we’ve got there. MSX: Not an awful lot in that line. INT: What about say the river channel itself ...? MRX: Too deep and narrow. INT: This one? MRX: This one down here. INT: If you were say thinking about your ideal sort of natural river .... MSX: It would be fairly shallow ... ripples and clear so that you can see the bottom, and along the

lines of ... well, how it used to look from the bridge, towards Letchlade when it was first shown on the television, I think it was different to see what wildlife were in there before they did anything. It was quite wide, quite shallow and things overhanging each side,wasn’t there. I mean I saw it on the television and I couldn’t believe it was actually Coleshill river from the bridge, to be honest. It was lovely because it was ripply and it wasn’t dead straight on both sides, it was sort of things growing out of each bank, that sort of thing. Rather like it is on the new bit that they’ve dug out this time between the willows.

INT: Right. Yes. MRX: But that’s the only nice bit about it. MSX: I mean the old stretch before, you know, OK it was straight ...

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MRX: That was only where they dug it out years ago ... MSX: Yes, but that looked nice because there were plants both sides, all different types of plants,

lily pads across the river, and although it was dead straight, more or less, it did look nice ... I mean, it was a bit deep.

INT: Do you think it looked ... how natural do you think it looked before then compared to now? MRX: Well I suppose to establish a natural river. MSX: OK, we can say to you that it was ... it had obviously been cut straight, it gave the

impression of a canal, because it was ... MRX: But that was only a short section, that wasn’t all .... MSX: No, but because it was so wild on the edges, with all sorts, and there was ducks and moor

hen and everything in and out of the reeds, it looked natural. It doesn’t in places now because you can see the disturbance where the banks have been levelled and there’s nothing growing just the odd tuft of grass or thistles, but I suppose once it grows up then it will look a bit more natural, won’t it? It’s going to take a while though.

INT: I mean, compared to other rivers that you’ve visited, how natural do you think that river is

now? MRX: The only river that we go and see regular is probably at ???? MSX: Yes, and then there’s buildings along the ???? so you don’t, you can’t ... You think it is

more natural than a lot of them because it hasn’t got the buildings - the concrete walls and the pavements and everything running along the side, so ...

INT: I mean, do they say that when they talk about rivers perhaps in more urban areas, do you

think it’s feasible to talk about restoring rivers these days? Or restoring them to say a natural state, semi-natural?

MSX: I mean you can’t have everything just so that it’ll run through a gulley or under a road

properly, I mean you’ve got to keep things natural, you’ve got to keep a balance ... If you decide that the river’s too wide, you want a bit more farming field so you’ve narrowed the river and it ruins everything ... well, from my point of view, probably from our point of view, because we looked at the wildlife first before we looked at whether it’s going to be ... you know, if there’s more grass for the cows to eat ...

INT: Do you think then it’s going to be possible to do more of this type of project in other

places? MSX: Well, I don’t see why it can’t be possible, the big stepping stone is the money all the time,

but I don’t see why it can’t be possible to make things a bit more attractive for a start. I don’t see why it’s not possible to do that.

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INT: Do you think that the river restoration people had a similar idea of what a natural river should be like to say the one that you’ve suggested to me?

MSX: Well, I should imagine they must have looked into it and people must have put their views

on a natural river and they probably visited untouched rivers to get ideas and then tried to work that in with the landscape they were working with here, or while they were working, so I suppose they must have had plenty of input, you know, what to put where and what to try.

INT: I mean some say that we’ve sort of tamed our rivers in this country? Do you think that’s

the case? MSX: Well it certainly was down here, wasn’t it? I mean, they shaped it to suit to the farming

here. So they’ve probably done it in lots of places. INT: Do you think it matters? Or do you think it’s a good thing that that’s been done? MSX: I suppose if it’s really been necessary to alter a natural river to a river like they had down

here, if it’s absolutely necessary, but then I don’t know what the effects were when they first did it. I could take them years for wildlife to come back or the plants to grow back, or ....

INT: Do you think that taming or controlling a river like that makes it more or less natural? MSX: It would make it less natural for a long long time, until like with this when it started living

on it’s own again with many plants, birds, ... I suppose for a long time it was unnatural, because you don’t get straight rivers, not naturally straight, they always make their own way, don’t they?

INT: Do you think that the restoration project is scientific in any way? MSX: I should think it would have to be.... they would have to look into how certain things are

going to affect they way the animals and the creatures who are already in the river continue to live there, and whether it’s just going to kill them off or help them to become stronger ... I suspect it would have to be because I know they did PH readings and what not, didn’t they, along the river, before they started.

INT: I mean would you have any idea of what sort of scientific knowledge would be necessary to

carry out a project like this? MSX: Well they’d have to know about what’s living in the river, and what it needs in the river to

continue to allow the creatures to live, to encourage more plants and animals and fish, to sort of ...

MRX: I think they did regular flow rates as well ... in different sections of the river to make sure

they’ve got the right amount of flow that they were aiming for. They do that regular, I think. And they’ve also stunned sections of the river, well, electrified it, to see what fish are in there. To see if they can encourage back what they’ve got ....

15

MSX: They’re also working on a fritillary field aren’t they to get that ... MRX: Yes. INT: To what extent do you think that the river restoration people know how to restore rivers? MSX: Oh I think they’d have to have the necessary knowledge, they’d have to be fairly

knowledgeable because I should imagine they must have had to answer an awful lot of questions about different things. They’d have to know what they’re talking about.

INT: Would you say that you trusted them to do what they think is best for the river? MSX: I’ve never really thought about it. I suppose we hoped they knew what they were doing so

that they wouldn’t mess it up. I mean we commented that it was a bit daft really having that second channel the way it was, because it looked so obviously like a ditch when they first dug it ...

MRX: ... but I mean ... they haven’t changed it, so ... INT: I mean you’ve said you don’t think the levels are right... MRX: No. Somehow they think that when we get rainfall it’s going to rise sufficient to flood the

fields, but that’s not going to happen. MSX: The fields are so much higher ... MRX: They certainly won’t flood it any more than it normally floods anyway. There’s marks in

the field where you can see that it’s always flooded up to, they’ll never make it any worse than that. ???

INT: Do you think there’s much else that perhaps needs to be learned about river restoration? MSX: No. I suppose, it would depend. I mean we don’t know what actually happened, I mean

they might have made decisions and started doing something down there and then suddenly decided well no that’s not going to work, or ???? and it’s not worked, so they’ve altered it , but not being ... I don’t know ... I mean it’s all there and things are happening, so you just accept that that’s that, really, as far as we’re concerned. Because I mean they’re going down and looking at it every so often, visiting it, so if something’s not working then perhaps they might say well we won’t do that next time, we’ll do something else.

INT: Would you say overall that you have approved what they’ve done down there or not?

Apart from the ... MSX: Yes. I think when it’s growing up properly it’ll be alright. It’s nice to see all the bends

and the curves and that ... It will be nice once it’s become natural again, when the banks have grown over a little bit and the plants have been back ... At the moment there are too many bare patches and it looks like someone’s just cleared the ground in places, so once it’s settled I suppose ... I don’t know how long it will take .... It’ll be alright.

16

INT: OK. Well I think that’s just about it. Thank’s very much for your time. MSX: Any time. [END OF INTERVIEW]

1

COLESHILL INTERVIEW 17 - 30TH OCTOBER 1997 INT: I just wanted to ask you first whether you think the restoration scheme has been a success or

not, and if so, why do you think that? MRX: Oh I think it has because there’s all the vegetation and all that growing back again. The

river banks are getting all greenery on them again and things like that xxxx down the bridge in the day time driving past and you see it’s all growing back again now. It looks good anyway.

INT: You think so. MRX: Yes. INT: I mean, apart from the vegetation growing back, can you think of any other reason why

perhaps you think it’s been successful? MRX: The water flow. It used to flood ... just over the bridge ... it used to flood everything, but

the water just keeps flowing now. It doesn’t get so high. INT: So you think that’s an improvement. MRX: Well, that’s pretty good because they’ve put it back to a wetlands now, haven’t they?

That’s the idea of it flooding it’s not doing it. INT: But we haven’t had much rain since then. MRX: We haven’t had much rain no. INT: OK. So the river flows ... Any other reasons .... MRX: Not particularly, no. As I say, I haven’t been down there recently. INT: No. Do you think it’s made it better for people if they want to go ... MRX: Oh yes. You can walk all the way along there now. They’ve got a bridleway ... is it a

bridleway? Or a section of land all down the edge of the river which you can walk through quite well. You’ve been down there have you?

INT: Yes. I came down last week and had a quick look, and I went down again today to have a

look. I haven’t walked right up, but I might do that tomorrow. What do you think has been the most important thing ... perhaps the most important successful thing that’s come out of the river restoration? That’s just your point of view really.

MRX: Cleaning it up. INT: Cleaning it up?

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MRX: Yes, it was a bit of a mess. I was a bit of a mess down there, all the trees overgrowing the waters, and things like that. You know, they’ve been cut back and cleaned it all up, it helps, you know rejuvenate it again sort of thing.

INT: OK. Do you think other people in the village would have other things that they thought

were the best thing to come out of it? MRX: Oh yes, I dare say so. Some of the National Trust workers probably. You’ve got a lot of

National Trust workers in the village who’ve actually been down there fishing and things like that. xxxxxx Angling Club. They own the fishing rights down there.

INT: Oh, right. I must try and speak to them. What would you see as being the most important

benefit for you, personally? MRX: They’ve cleaned it out a bit. INT: Cleaning it up generally. MRX: Yes. Tidying all the edges up and all the shrubs and things like that. By the river and that

it’s better now. INT: What about things like wildlife? Do you think that that’s improved now? MRX: That has done a lot of improving to that, I think, because up through the woods you’ve got

all the ducks and that ... wild ducks, and things like that ... they’ve been very good on that. INT: Can you remember back ... I don’t know when and how you first heard they were going to

do something down there, but did you have any particular sort of idea about what you thought it was going to be like?

MRX: No I didn’t. Well, I did look at the plan ... it was a piece of paper saying exactly what they

were going to do, and all they were going to do was put the bends back in the river, where they’d taken them out years ago, they went and put them back in again. So it was back.

INT: So you knew that they were going to do that. MRX: Yes. INT: But you didn’t have any particular sort of image of what you thought it might look like? MRX: No. INT: OK. What I was going to ask you is when it was done how it compared to the image you

may have had of how you thought it was going to be .... you didn’t really know what it was going to be like? No.

MRX: No. I’ts a lot wider than what it was. It was a very narrow stream years ago, all the banks

have subsided now. They straightened all the banks and put all that wire down.

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INT: Does the river play any particular part in your life? MRX: Fond memories when I was a child. INT: Really. MRX: I used to do a lot of fishing in the river as a child, yes. We used to go in there and every

weekend fishing. It was really good. INT: Oh right. MRX: You could say that was my childhood. Fishing. And working. Because we never used to

get into any trouble. Things like that like, we used to go in the river fishing. All the kids in the village of my age now, there’s still a few living in the village who are my age now and they all went fishing at the same time. Even the girls went fishing.

INT: Did they? Oh right. Do you still think it plays a part in people’s lives? In many people’s

lives? MRX: I think it does yes. Especially the young children of today in the village. INT: Do they still go down? MRX: Yes, they still go down but they don’t go fishing because they’re not allowed to because

they have fishing rights now. INT: Right. Yes. MRX: And our waters are very strict on that. They won’t let anybody go fishing unless they join

the club. INT: What happens if you do, do you get ... MRX: You get your rod taken away from you and things like that. It’s stupid really because this

is our village, our river was named after the village ... INT: Yes, that’s right, yes. MRX: So, why not let them fish in it. INT: Do you think the river plays an important part in the local landscape? MRX: Yes, it does. It’s the boundary of Wiltshire and Oxfordshire. So it does. INT: So we’re in Wiltshire here ... L We’re in Oxfordshire INT: We’re in Oxfordshire... Wiltshire is the other side of the river.

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MRX: The other side of the river. INT: Right. I’ve got my bearings. Yes. MRX: Oxfordshire this side ... Wiltshire the other side. INT: Yes. MRX: So it does play a great part as a boundary, so .... all the way down the river ... well it’s the

Parish boundary as well. INT: Is it the Parish boundary as well? MRX: Yes. It is. INT: Do you think that when the people who designed, when they were planning the project and

what they were going to do ... do you think they took account of how local people use the river at all?

MRX: I think they did yes. They had a big meeting at the school, which I could not attend at the

time, but there was a big meeting at the school, about what they were going to do to it, and everything else.

INT: Yes. Did you ... although you didn’t go to the meeting, did you manage to hear about what

was said? MRX: Yes, my mother told me a few things about what was happening, but there was nothing

really that we didn’t already know. There were no backhand things going on really. INT: Right. No. Do you think that when they’re doing projects like this that they should take it

into account, the way that local people use the rivers and things? MRX: Oh yes. Probably yes. It should be discussed. Everything should be discussed, nothing

backhand .... or things like that. INT: I mean do you think local people should have a chance to have an input? Some sort of

chance to be involved in what’s going on? MRX: If they want to, yes. If they don’t, then ... they should be told what’s going on, because it’s

no good saying ... locals come back saying well we wasn’t told this and that ... too late, it’s already been done.

INT: Yes. Yes. I mean what did you think about the consultation process here? Would you say

youwere satisfied with it? MRX: It was quite good as a matter of fact. We had the big meeting in the school, as I said, and

we had a meeting after it was done in the school, and the television was sent in after they’d done it. It was on television, it was on the news.

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INT: Oh right. Was it? MRX: They told us how much it had cost. A fantastic amount of money. INT: Yes. MRX: They got it from the European thing, didn’t they? INT: Yes, the LIFE Fund and some lottery money as well, later on, not initially, but later ... last

year they got some money from the Heritage lottery fund or something. MRX: It’s the Lottery, same thing isn’t it? INT: Yes. MRX: So we did win the lottery then did we? INT: Well, sort of yes. You could say that I suppose, yes. OK. Do you think there were

more ways that you could have been involved with what was going on if you’d wanted to be?

MRX: I don’t think so. No. It was too well planned. It was very well planned out. The

diggers moved in one day, four or five weeks, and they were gone again. INT: And you said you feel that local people should have the opportunity to be involved? MRX: Yes, definitely. INT: OK. MRX: If they want to. INT: If they want to be, yes. So you think perhaps then that what they did here with letting

people know was OK, satisfactory? MRX: Yes. It was fine. INT: Do you think it could have been improved in any way at all? MRX: No, not really. There wasn’t any mess or anything like that, a bit of a mess on the road,

you know, but other than that ... they did tidy up after themselves. They did keep it all clean and tidy when they were working and that, which is good.

INT: Do you think ... a couple of other people have said to me that although they were consulted

before it happened, they’d quite like to know now what has happened, and you know, what’s been going on since. Do you think that you would say the same?

MRX: Some sort of consultation maybe ...

6

INT: Or maybe some sort of feedback from all the people ... MRX: Yes. Saying how it went ... yes. INT: Do you think that’s a good idea? MRX: Yes. I do. INT: I mean if they were to say, all right, we’re going to have a meeting in the local parish hall or

something, to let people know ... like a presentation perhaps, you know, this is what we expected to happen, this is what has happened, and things.

MRX: What has actually happened and what didn’t happen ... INT: Yes. I mean, would you be interested in something like that? MRX: Yes I would. I’d like to know what the outcome was yes. INT: OK. I might mention that to them then, because several people have said that to me. MRX: Well it’s all right doing these projects ... they come here and go, big diggers and things like

that .... they do everything they want to do to the river with, you know, they let us know what they’re going to do and things like that ... and then they go away, they’ve finished it, and we don’t know whether they’ve done it right or wrong, or whether there were any mistakes made or not, no.

INT: So you don’t get any ... you really want to be kept informed all the way through. MRX: Well, either all the way through, or at the end. INT: At the end, right. MRX: You know, just to say well we’ve done it, it was wrong, but we’ve done it anyway, you

know. Just own up to a few of their mistakes, if they made any. You don’t know do you? INT: No. MRX: You don’t know what the plan was in the first place. INT: Well ... you know what they told you it was. MRX: What they told us ... whether they made any mistakes or not, we don’t know do we? INT: No. Do you think local people, or do you personally, see the river as being local property? MRX: Yes. INT: You do...

7

MRX: Oh yes, definitely. It is the river. Everybody associated with the village knows the river

is at the bottom of the village, it’s part of village, part of everybodies’ lives. INT: Yes. Would you say that you’ve been involved with the river .. I know you said you used

to go down there lots as a child, but do you still feel involved with it? MRX: Oh yes. It’s part of my upbringing. INT: Are there any other sort of groups, apart from perhaps fishermen, in the village that you

think might be involved, or feel involved in particular with the river? MRX: The river goes all the way to Shrivenham and there’s all the shooting rights for the ducks

and things like that. INT: Is there much shooting? MRX: A lot of shooting over the waters ... yes there is. [name of group inaudible] INT: Really. MRX: On a Saturday it’s ?????? Do you know ???? INT: No. One of the things that the restoration people said they were trying to do here was to

make the river more natural by the changes that they were going to do ... MRX: Yes, put it back how it was. INT: Yes. If I was to say ask you to describe what you think a natural river would be like, what

would you say? MRX: I haven’t got a clue. But it’s always been the same, the river, coming out of the woods and

facing up here, you come down to the long bend and you come straight ... there’s a long straight and then the Seven Steps .... I don’t know if you know ...

INT: Yes, I do know the bit you mean, yes, Seven Steps ... yes. MRX: I mean that’s not changed in all the years of my life. INT: No. But that wasn’t the original river course, was it? I don’t think ... I think that was

actually where they’ve put it back now ... MRX: Yes, they’ve put it back to that now, yes. So that’s wetlands, all up there see. It floods

every time it rains. INT: Does it? Yes. So you couldn’t say what you think a natural river would be like? MRX: No.

8

INT: No. I mean do you think there would be lots, maybe, of ... MRX: There used to be lots of reeds and all that ... that’s near the Mill House ... you’ve been to the

Mill House have you. INT: There are lots of reeds there now. You know where the pond is ... loads and loads of

them, I wasn’t sure how many ... I couldn’t remember how many there’d been before there. MRX: They’ve grown now, but I don’t know what the density’s like now, but ... INT: There’s a lot there, and it looks very fresh, like new stuff ... MRX: They did something to that didn’t they? INT: Yes, they did I think. I’m not too sure what they did there actually. MRX: They deepened it. INT: OK. So you don’t think you could say what a natural river would be like? MRX: No. Years ago it used to be all covered in reeds, big reeds, those big sort of tall brown ... INT: Yes, I know what you mean. MRX: They were all there, especially in front of the bridge, and by the Seven Steps, and all down

that piece down there, from the Seven Steps right down to the Mill House, it used to be the same, all reeds.

INT: Right, all down there. Right. MRX: And from the Seven Steps up there used to be all lily pads. INT: There’s still a few of those there. MRX: They used to go all the way up. We used to chuck in a grappling iron and pull them out

because you couldn’t fish in there. INT: Did you? Have you got any idea what you think that the river restoration people, the

managers, think a natural river would be like? MRX: They must have some good idea, or they wouldn’t be doing the project, would they? They

must know what they’re doing really. There’d be no point if they don’t know what they’re doing, they’d just wreck the place. Yes, I do think they have a rough idea, they must have done it before.

INT: Right. MRX: Obviously, this isn’t the first plot of land they’ve done.

9

INT: No. It’s not the first restoration that they’ve done. It’s the first time they’ve done it in such detail and ... in as far as they did a lot of studies before they even started, and all the way through, and they’re still studying it now to see what it’s doing and what’s happening. That hasn’t been done before, not to the extent that they’ve done it.

MRX: You see, before they done the restoration there was a water level meter by the side of the

river by the bridge, which was there for years, and was taking the water levels, I don’t know if that had anything to do with it.

INT: I don’t know to be honest. MRX: Sometimes in the summer it really does dry out. In winter it floods to the top of the bridge

so ... INT: No, I don’t know about that. I mean would you say ... MRX: Have they restocked the river yet do you know? INT: As far as I know they haven’t done any restocking, no. ... I mean, would you say that

before they did the project that the river there was quite natural in a way? MRX: Yes. INT: Right. I mean ... MRX: There was plenty of fish in there as well. INT: There was. Yes. Comparing it to now, after they’ve done the project, do you think it’s

more natural now or less natural than it used to be? MRX: Well I wouldn’t know because I haven’t been down there. INT: You haven’t been at all? MRX: Not this year. INT: Have you been down since they’ve done it? MRX: Yes, I was down there once since it’s been done, not since summer. INT: It’s often been said that we sort of have controlled all of our rivers and we’ve sort of tamed

our rivers in ... not just in this country, but more or less everywhere now. Do you think that’s true?

MRX: We’ve got to do something with them, we can’t just let them go ... because they erode the

banks away, don’t they? It’s like on the edge of the coast there, all the rough sea has eroded the minerals and all the rest of it, you’ve got to stop it somehow or you won’t have an island left will you? ... You know, water’s a very good abrasive, isn’t it? ... It will wear anything away.

10

INT: Do you think we should ... control our rivers? MRX: Oh yes you should control them, yes. INT: Right. MRX: They will wear it away. We’ve only got a little bend in the bridge, if you go to the bridge,

I don’t know if you been down near the bridge ... INT: I have yes. MRX: They’ve put steel girders in there. That’s to stop it wearing the side of the bridge away. INT: Yes I noticed it. Do you think that controlling a river, managing it like that, makes it less

natural? MRX: No. INT: You don’t. No. MRX: It’s a natural thing anyway, water, isn’t it? So you’ve got to control it, if you don’t control

it, it’ll do it’s own thing. Mind you saying that, doing it’s own thing, well, some people would rather have it that way. But when it floods the bottom of their garden and takes half of their garden away then they soon start kicking up a fuss, don’t they.

INT: Yes, that’s true. Do you think the restoration project has been a scientific project? MRX: I’ve no idea of the sort of things they do down there. INT: You don’t. MRX: I should imagine they’ve learned something out of it, they must have done or they wouldn’t

be down there doing it. INT: I mean would you have any idea of what kind of knowledge they need to be able to do

something like that? MRX: No. INT: No. MRX: They must have some sort of specialists there mustn’t they? To xxxx fiddle about ....

landscape ... INT: Yes. I definitely think ... To what extent do you think they know what they’re doing, if

you like, they know how to ...

11

MRX: Quite a bit, because they wouldn’t be doing it would they? They wouldn’t be able to get this grant and the lottery, if they didn’t. They wouldn’t give it to anybody, would they, without the knowledge and the know-how. They must have put plans forward, mustn’t they? They must have been drawn up in quite a lot of detail, so I would say they know what they’re doing.

INT: Yes. I mean would you say that you trust them, if you like, to do what they think is best? MRX: Yes. Well you’ve got to put some sort of trust into them haven’t you. If you don’t ...

You’ve got to trust somebody. You’ve got to trust your bank manager to do the right thing, and if he doesn’t you soon go over the top of him, don’t you?

INT: Yes that’s right. MRX: So, yes, I do trust them. INT: Would you have any idea of what else you think needs to be learned about river restoration? MRX: I should imagine it’s quite a bit, because there are quite a lot of rivers that do run wild,

because I’ve been fishing in Ireland, a couple of times, and the rivers there just rush through. They could be slowed up and you could put some sort of barrier in there and use it to make electricity or something like that, you know. Just a little one put in there, a little turbo or something like that would do it fine. Wouldn’t it?

INT: I don’t know whether they could do that with that type of river or not, but ....? MRX: Well, in Ireland I should imagine they could do. INT: Yes, they’ve got some pretty rough wild rivers there. MRX: But around in this sort of area, no. A natural river should be natural all the way through,

without any pollution. INT: Going back to this word ‘natural’ again ... when you say a natural river ... I’m not really

sure what you mean by that. MRX: Well, one that went freely .. to a certain extent. INT: Right. Not restrained in any way. MRX: No. No. To take all it’s courses like that and look after them, you know, make sure it

doesn’t erode it all away. That’s what it did on the corner down by the .. . past the Mill pond ... it was coming down past the Mill pond ... there’s the Mill pond there, come down round the corner and it went right the way round and wore the bank right away, so they stopped it and filled it in again, with one of those big blocks of stones and metal cages ...

INT: Oh the ... MRX: I can’t think what they’re called.

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INT: Yes, I know what you mean. MRX: It’s a cage, a sort of wire mesh cage that it stands in really, they stuck some of them in there

and stopped it. INT: Yes, I know what you mean. Right. And you’d say that’s good, that they should ... MRX: That’s good that is because that stops it from wearing away too much. INT: But isn’t it natural that a river would wear it away ... MRX: Yes it is, but then it would run itself out of water wouldn’t it, because the new land it’s

eroding into would just soak up the water wouldn’t it? And that’s what’s happened to the river down there. It’s gone on it’s own way too much and water levels are getting lower and lower and lower.

INT: Right. MRX: Well, that’s my idea, anyway. INT: OK. Do you think it’s better now then? Since they’ve done this? MRX: Yes. Slowed it up and stopped it wearing away so much. They’ve done that in several

places along the river I think, especially up by the Mill pond and that. INT: Right. Yes. Do you think that overall you’ve been happy with what’s been done there? MRX: Yes. INT: You would say so. Yes. And you think it’s a good idea that they do this type of project? MRX: Yes. I do. Definitely. INT: OK. Well that’s ... unless you’ve got anything else to add. That’s all I wanted to ask you

about. Thank you very much for your time.

1

COLESHILL INTERVIEW 18 -31st OCTOBER 1997 INT: All I want to do really is to ... you did the survey earlier in the year didn’t you? MSX: Yes I did. INT: I won’t be taking up as much time today, it’s just really a few sort of key points that we’re

interested in, just to sort of go into in perhaps a bit more depth really. And sort of now that it must be coming up to say 10 months since the last interview, to see ... well, obviously it’s matured a bit more ... not much but a bit more since then, to see what you think.

MSX: You’ve walked it have you? INT: Yes. I went down there last week and yesterday, briefly. I had a quick look. I mean, I

hadn’t been down for a year and seen it, I noticed a big difference down there. MSX: Yes, but down here only a matter of a few weeks ago, they still had a another massive great

caterpillar digger out. INT: Did they? MSX: Yes, I don't know what ... I mean one thinks that it’s finished, and that is it ... one day I

think at about 9.30 they took a great body of people down to the river which I presumed was this official opening that they were talking about, but then it was about two days before that, roughly under the bridge where there’s a sign that has got something to do with fishing I think, there’s a few reeds ... it was just there. You see when the gas people came and started putting in their main pipes, the big yellow ones, that went through the river, under the river, or something like that, I don’t quite know how they did it ... so that was again back about five or six months ago -ish ... sometime in the Summer ... I never do know if it’s a 100% finished. I really don’t. I mean they weren’t there very long, maybe a day or so, and that was it ... it doesn’t worry me, because I actually haven’t walked there, I have to admit, but where I know it’s been cut through, gone back to it’s original position, across the field over there, there are no trees, and I can vaguely remember the guy saying that they were going to either transplant willow trees or something, but maybe because it’s in the middle of still a working field, I don’t know. But it misses out a bit. Well there’s a bit of a ... there’s a sign of some kind, that’s been boundaried off. What is that? Is that just ...

INT: I don’t know. I saw it yesterday. I don’t know what it is. MSX: I’m going to get my husband to walk over ... when you get down to the gate by the river

over there, you don’t see it from the other side, and of course they come down to through where the football pitch is, people in Highworth come to walk their dogs have told me and go through that way, it’s only when they come over the gate that they see ‘No entry - conservation area’.

INT: Yes. I haven’t seen that because I’ve only approached it from this side, but I was told ... if

I went through the park, I would see that. Yes.

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MSX: Yes. That didn’t go up immediately. That went up a matter of some weeks later and actually that stops ... I mean I can understand why they’ve done it ... but only for the immediate left and the immediate right, because of the fields opposite ... that’s a big working field, so I can’t really see why they’ve done it. You know, I’ve been .... seriously I can get down as far as Seven Steps which is the first gate you come to, but that would be nice just to know if I could try just to get a little bit further. When you get further up on the opposite side, I think there’s a bit of a bridge up there as well. It sort of makes you want to explore more, perhaps not to the detriment of the wildlife or anything like that but just to be able to see what’s going on, and, you know, as I say, but somehow they don’t want it.

INT: I think the ... from what I’ve been told ... was that it’s more to stop, not people living in this

village, but what they call outsiders coming in, like from Highworth or wherever to walk their dogs ... I don’t know.

MSX: They still do it though, I have to tell you. INT: Do they? MSX: Oh yes, they do. They come in, knowingly now, they come in from that way, and as one

woman said whose husband has had a lot to do with the ... what was it, not the SAS but the equivalent, I think, she says I’ve been coming down here for 50 years, and suddenly to have a ‘you can’t come in’, she finds very difficult to take, so yes, in a diverse fashion, they come in the back way where there is no sign. So ...

INT: I’ll have to ask about that but ... OK, I mean, can I start by asking you whether you think

it’s been a success, the scheme, and perhaps why you might think that? What do you think’s been successful about it or not?

MSX: Not really. I mean I can’t say success would be a word that I would use. If wanting to

take things back to what they were 20, 30 or 40 years ago, yes, I suppose so. I’ve only heard from farmers saying that it’s detrimental to them, because it’s going to start the flooding of their fields, but there again, some are higher. When you get further down the river they’ve only gone as far as they can because the farmer I’m thinking of actually refused, but in fact it’s owned by Christchurch College, and they said no. And their land was getting flooded. No, I mean I think for the birds and ducks and wildlife as such, yes it’s given them back something that ... or will give them back even more that they didn’t have, but no, I wouldn’t say so really. I don’t know. I wouldn’t have said there was a great deal of obvious goodness in having it put back at all.

INT: What about from perhaps a recreational point of view, do you think that’s made any

difference? MSX: Recreational .... no. No because when I went up to the first meeting .... I don’t go up to all

of the meetings ... again, because in the evening and I’m usually ... I had to say well are you going to make a sort of pathway, and obvious ‘this is where you walk’. Oh no we don’t want that. We want the shrubs to come back and we want the otters to come back. We don’t want people looking at them. And I’m thinking oh no ... fair enough, I can’t explain it, I mean you see the moorlands and all the rest of it, and they want it all back to natural,

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and they’re moaning again about people going in and out, but I would say that probably 75-80% of people would keep to the roads. There’ll always be those with the outright curiosity wanting to go further, but no no, recreational, forget it, they don’t want it like that. So that’s where I’m thinking well what is the point? I mean they could have said right we’ll dredge the river as it was, and really clear it out and plant a few more trees and make more of it undergrowth or something. So no, I don’t really think so at all.

INT: Do you see any benefits, say to yourself, or the village even, from the scheme? MSX: No. There’s actually more people coming down now, people ... as far as the cars I’ve seen,

well they’ve got nothing to do with the public in general, they belong to the guys working on the ... and I just didn’t fight on because I’d really get going, and people turned up yesterday I’ve never seen before, with dogs, with children. No. You’ve got a lot more outsiders coming in. A lot more. And actually I’ve had quite a few people ... well, 2 or 3 there, I mean, quite a lot, and also we understand the river’s been moved. One of them was quite an elderly lady, so I had to be careful there, but I said no, it’s just gone back to where it was before, you know, the pathway, the course or whatever is still there. But it was just so funny the way she understood it had been moved, you can just imagine it can’t you. I had a terrible vision ... but it’s gone around, a good 25-30 mile radius. People do come to have a look and yes, they probably have found a difference. I mean the river used to go down to the Mill, I mean that is stagnant, and I always feel it can’t be very good that. But I suppose there must be some movement underneath.

INT: There might be, I don’t know. MSX: You see the cattle can still go in and feed. So you’re still going to get a certain amount of

yuk, aren’t you, slurry, or whatever. And they can on the other side as well. She [indicates dog] went to roll in something the other day and she flipped into the river.

INT: So you don’t really see any benefits then, maybe some wildlife ... MSX: No, wildlife is definitely there, the swans, the moor hens, dragonflies, yes ... I find them in

my garden in terrific number, and they can bite ... and a good mixture. But I haven’t gone down and actually sat. It’s only when I first came here, it’ll be 11 years ago, I used to see kingfishers just in the corner behind the Mill house, so I haven’t seen them. I hear plenty of birds, and owls, and what have you. Little grey squirrels, they’re terrible. So from the point of view of wildlife, yes, I should think it’s very good. But no, the recreational, they don’t want it to be there. Which is a shame.

INT: I mean do you think anyone else ... other people ... see it as being a success in other ways? MSX: No. INT: Not in the village? MSX: No, they don’t at all no. They can’t understand for the amount of money that was spent, I

wish the board had been left up there actually, because now it’s all finished you would actually have time to go and have a look, before as you were pulling out on the main road, it was the only time you ever sort of connected up with it, yes. But no, they don’t, the

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amount of money that was spent they feel that it’s ... you know, for what reason was it done... if it had been ... I mean hopefully it’s going to flood .. I mean, my husband took photos that first week, and they are terrific photos he took of the flooding. They were stating that they were flooded, well I mean somehow they should really have knocked on everybody’s door saying have you ever taken any photographs during certain periods, certain months of the year, and down there what they’re hoping is that the far field is going to flood. It looks higher than this, but then it comes on into this one. Last year, I think there was a little bit of flooding, but not a lot. But then that could be because in rebuilding it or rediverting it or whatever, they actually cleaned it out at the same time, do you know what I mean? So maybe there wasn’t sort of a backlog, so I don’t know, but that’s still fine. I mean he still cuts that for silage, and I thought that was going to be left totally uncut and that was it, you know, just natural die back, but it doesn’t appear to be, and when you ask xxxxx, he doesn’t say an awful lot, you know, well fair enough, he keeps part of it under his belt, he has to rent from the Trust therefore he knows his dos and don’ts. But it’s xxxxx who gets all uppity. Last time I spoke to them, oh, we don’t want this and we don’t want that, we don’t want the other. I mean I’ve always taken the dog in there, and he said I don’t mind that he said, you know, and we get on quite well, because if he has scramble bikes...

INT: You get bikes. MSX: Oh yes. I’m usually on the phone and my husband says mind your own business and I said

he prefers it if I let him know, and he comes bombing out with all the mobiles going and that, and we get sort of vehicles moving around at midnight, whenever they come over here, not always, and one night at half past eleven, I suddenly looked out and there’s a massive great ... I thought they were rustlers actually ... and a white car at the front, and I kept saying to xxxxx, xxxxxxx ... I said what’s his band called ... oh I don’t remember. So I said Oh come on ... only because he’s heard them two or three times at the pub ... so anyhow eventually it turned out it was him. His band, in a bloody great van. I say that because I rang up xxxx, I said looks like rustlers are afoot. It did. It was thick fog like it was this morning, half past eleven at night, you could hardly see in front of your face. So xxxx came round here, realised she hadn’t got a key for the chain which they put up on account of lots being stolen. He came round the other way, she’s worried in case he’s getting biffed on the head, and in the end xxxx said maybe I ought to tell you the lads are staying over in the cottage, and I said well not from the point of view that I want to know your business, but yes, it would be more helpful. Because she had 8 break-ins in there once and the last one was the one and a half hours I was out visiting a friend in Buscott. Had I seen anything? And I said, well no, when it’s foggy you certainly can’t. So you know it’s just one of those things. Last night I heard cars traveling around, they went in out and went back in again, and I’m thinking who’s that. You just don’t know. So if they just tell me I can get straight on the phone to xxxx. So anyhow, did I answer your question?

INT: Yes, well. Can you remember when you first heard that they were going to do the project,

did you have any particular expectations about what it was going to be like when it had been done?

MSX: The finished entity?

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INT: Yes. And how does it now sort of match up with those expectations you may have had before?

MSX: Well it doesn’t really, at all, no. As I say, I would have imagined where they’ve done it,

unless you actually walk there you can’t see it, you know roughly where it’s going, maps are all very well, but I really thought trees, they would enhance what they had done, you know rediverting the water to where it was before, I would have thought they would have put in some trees, which can still ... that’s not National Trust land on the other side ... this side, yes, they have ... you just think what a damn nuisance actually ... I know someone else who feels the same way as well. And it probably will be fine. The oak trees, there have been two or three that have gone, so yes, that’s replaced, you know, sort of replanting year this year. But the other side where I know that the water has been diverted, I wish there were some weeping willows or something ... that enhanced it, and in time, the trees here in the spinney, I wouldn’t have planted half my plants I put in the garden because they will grow 20ft in 10 years, and I’m a gardener so up to a point I should know that it’s going to happen, but over there I feel it’s just bland. There’s nothing. To the left as you go over the bridge with this no entry conservation area, the reeds were always there, to the right it’s more reeds as opposed to weeds, on the right, to me, I could be wrong, anything small doesn’t show up, to the right it appears to me as if it’s just weeds, you know meadow land. Nothing has been planted in there to give overhanging shade, so if trees were on the other side, it would have more than one sort of factor to it, but nothing. There’s only one, to the right as you’re going up Highworth on the right of the bridge there’s a nice willow and I love it when it’s ... there’s a special word isn’t there for cutting it back, you know where you see it all pollarded and suddenly all the buds come out, I mean that is lovely, and that is what I was imagining over there. Yes I really was. And there’s just nothing, it’s just bland.

INT: Do you find it disappointing? MSX: Yes, I do, actually. Disappointing and also then seeing that notice up, very annoyed. But

then it shouldn’t have surprised me because of what one of the National Trust ladies who works at Cirencester said, oh but we don’t want people to walk the river, and I said, I’ve only been in the village about 30 years, and I said how can you stop people doing something that they have been doing with everyone’s consent for over 40 years. I said how can you. Oh but we don’t want them there. I said it would be nice to have a sort of gravel pathway, you know, with a seat every now and again or something.

INT: Would you say you saw the project as being sort of scientific? MSX: Yes. More so. Oh yes, because that’s basically how it’s been told to us. I’m going to get

this wrong because I can’t remember ... Sweden, Norway, Sweden? INT: Denmark. MSX: Denmark. I told you. Denmark, where it was done, and then down in Devon ... INT: There’s another one up in Darlington.

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MSX: Oh Darlington. I always get this wrong, yes, Darlington, up north. Are they going to do one down there?

INT: They’ve done it. MSX: No. Darlington, they have, yes. And there was a third one, but they’re now talking about

doing ... INT: There was some talk about ... I think it was Devon actually. MSX: Yes. You see I’m getting that muddled up. I used to say people it was Darlington.

Actually I think at that meeting I said Darlington ... no wonder I got a funny look. But no, they said it was experimental but they never really went into whether the others had been a success in as much, you know, the reason they did it. It’s just, I don’t know.

INT: I mean, what sort of scientific knowledge do you think would be necessary to do a project

like this, have you got any idea? MSX: Not really no. I mean, no, I haven’t. I mean if you could say it was going to alter the

land, which I suppose it will if the river overflows and it becomes a bog land, but it’s not a semi bog land now, do you know what I mean? Alright, you get the river overflowing ... well probably once in a year ... not badly so, but ... no, I can’t honestly see it doing that ... I mean that’s what they were sort of saying was going to be the main aim in the end. You can see where it could get a little bit down ... well you do because when you walk out in your wellington boots you know ... after a rain or whatever, or a load of snow, and then it’s melted, then you get a lot, but I can’t really.

INT: To what extent to you think that the river restoration people know how to restore rivers

then? Do you think they’ve got the necessary knowledge and know how? MSX: I don’t know. I’ve never looked into sort of what their .. you know because in a sense I

have to say, because the National Trust have taken such a part in it, you’re rather inclined to step backwards, you know if ... otherwise ... they don’t have a go at you saying you’re interfering too much, but ... I think where there is no knowledge of certain factors, if you do open your mouth then other people are inclined to jump in on you, you know, and say what are you talking about? I’d like to know. I love knowledge, more than my husband, get rid of all your books ... and if I don’t know a word I get the dictionary ... he’s often ... there you go with your dictionary ... and I say well why not, I said you read a book, you find a word, you think what does that mean, but no, with regards to that I’ve got no idea at all.

INT: Would you say you trusted the river restoration people to do what they thought was ...? MSX: Yes, I suppose so, because one isn’t knowledgeable oneself, from that point of view, yes. I

mean I presume if they’re going to take something on at a vast amount ... alright ten years ago you could say that it would have cost perhaps half the amount ... because I mean money just seems to go out of all proportion now, but they’ve got to have research behind them. Whether they’re using what they had in Denmark, or whether they’re using what they had up in Darlington, all rivers flow differently etc. you know what I mean, but I tell you one

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thing, with you saying about the difference in the river, I’m probably not going to get this 100% right, but where the otters have been coming back ...

INT: Have they been? MSX: Yes, not here. This is what one of the things was. They said the river Cherwell I haven’t

got a map to see where the Cherwell is compared to the river Cole but this is what they were hoping, that eventually they’d come down here. Now one thing they said, they need a lot of undergrowth and trees, now we don’t have that here. So how could it ever be presumed that they’ll come back, except for the fact that between the first gamekeeper’s cottage and the next, which we call xxxxxx, you’ve got all the trees, and you’ve got the river going in there and so on, so possibly yes. But to have said that they have done this diversion of the river to it’s old course is going to encourage it back, these are the things you think ... yes, well that doesn’t quite come into anything does it. If they’re going to come, they’re going to come.

INT: Would you say, or what part would you say, the river plays in your life? Any particular

part? MSX: Oh no, it’s very enjoyable to walk down there. It’s a focal point for a walk. That’s

pathetic, I mean I’m not as agile physically as I was. No it is nice. And in the future I shall probably take down my three cornered stool and sit there and quite enjoy it. The only thing is the dog ?????. But it is.

INT: Do you think it plays a big sort of role in the life of the local community or not? MSX: I would say two-thirds of the time no, not really, no. The children are drawn to it, well

children are drawn to water aren’t they, from that point of view. Well no, I would say possibly the families with children, yes, do go down. You know, it’s a place to start a walk or a bike ride or whatever, you know. But not really, no.

INT: Do you think it’s perhaps an important part of the local landscape round here, the river? MSX: Well there are so many other things aren’t there. I suppose the river is, per se, but by the

same token you’ve got Ashburys, you’ve got all these other places, ?????? not that I’ve been to many of them. And Letchlade, you see, you go down to Letchley more, the Thames really is more ... there have been canoeists that come up here, but where they go to ... it’s in your mind, you’re thinking well you’ve got the Steps that were specially built at the Mill. It goes narrow at the top, the reeds hold it all up, I’ve no idea where they ever go to. And there was a boat, there at the time that this was going to be done, they were offering a .... if you wanted a job, to sit in one of those old coracles with the one oar, going up and down checking on the river. And having said that I never saw anyone take up that job, so again, whether these ideas were being put out at the beginning, you know, feelers, and logically it didn’t get put into operation, I don’t know. But no.

INT: Do you think they took into account the local use of the river? Not that it’s used that

much presumably ...

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MSX: I wouldn’t have thought so to be honest, no. I mean, it’s like many meetings that take place in life with regards to changes. I think they’d made up their minds what they were going to do and it was purely that they presented it to you and as I say that was the first meeting I went to, the second I couldn’t of course go, or maybe I went to the second and not the first ... and so when you stood up they’d more or less got the answer. Actually it did come up ... the water board ... I said at the time, in the winter they close the sluice gates down one of the locks, I don’t know which one it is, and he said no absolutely not, bearing in mind that when you’re down Runnimede way, I can never remember if it’s Sunningdale .... the river if you go too fast floods all the gardens, and if you didn’t hold some of the water back here xxxxx he said no we don’t. They’re farmers that have been farming for 60 years, 70 years down in Buscott, and they go rubbish we’ve seen them do it. It’s a fact. Everybody knows it happens. It may not have done in the last couple of years but what has always been isn’t going to suddenly be stopped, because there’s no alternative, and ... so I just felt you could only... you listened to what was said and you’re either the sort of person who would believe it, or you would like to query it terrifically.

INT: Do you think people had any input in the village as to what was going to be done? MSX: No not really, no. No, fait accompli. Oh yes, I do. That’s my own opinion. INT: Do you think that’s the general opinion or not? MSX: I don’t know, no. With the way of life and the fact that there’s a main road between us and

everything like that, you don’t really sort of get together quite so much, you know. I mean the lady I saw on Wednesday night she does two Bring and Buys in the village and it’s Jubilee Trust. I haven’t seen her in six months. Oh yes. I said we haven’t seen you for ages, where are you. Well I don’t go out an awful lot now. ...Someone doing an A level or somthing ....

INT: Oh is this about the local change in the village or something that someone told me about? MSX: Probably, yes. And they sort of said is it a neighbourly village, and I said well not really,

with the main road going through the centre, and the people we knew when we came only XX years ago, were older than us and of course they’ve since died and the Trust if you try to get in younger people with children etc. But again that person makes me laugh. I’m terribly cynical on some things, but ... all their children play outside my window here, and they all live on the opposite side. Now can you see their houses from here. No. They stop cars coming down there and start chatting to the drivers. They probably know them, but I don’t know that they know them. And my husband gets furious with me. Mind your own business. So I said xxxxx if anything happened to them, which house do you think they’re going to come running to first, which one. And I can see all this stupidity. I mean one man I .... when xxxx had the electrified fence put up, just a single line, there were five of them. And they held on to see how far the jolt would go. And when I told her ... I didn’t say it nastily ... I just said you ought to know this ... so, they’re playing, she said. Didn’t want to know. And anyone knows that that can give a child a heart attack, and 1 out of 5 has got a weak heart, but no ... the nanny in me comes out then, you know, and I think ooooh ... but anyhow.

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INT: Do you think any other people in the village had any sort of input at all, or participated in what was going on or decisions made?

MSX: Oh possibly the National Trust, yes. INT: No I’m talking more about local residents? MSX: Local residents .. no not really no. I mean we all went to the same meeting .. the meeting I

went to ... I was the one that was asking all the questions ... and I’m thinking I haven’t lived here half as long as anyone else, but no ... I don’t think so really, to be honest. To my knowledge there were no forms or ... you know, left around, giving your ideas, and this is what they were thinking they were going to do in the village. We were actually told there will be a meeting to discuss ... this is going to occur. Obviously there were questions that they wanted to ... if you had any questions they would answer them, but they seem to have an answer for every one that came up, you know. They’ve had two or three ... they say documentaries can inform, not really ... items on the local news and I think Country File it was even mentioned, with regards to the fritillary. A couple walked up one day and they said did we know where the field was, so I said I know it’s that a way, but I’ve never made it yet, because uneven ground is murder for me. So she said oh well we know it’s about two or three fields across, so there was a bit in the paper about how they trying to get the head seeds off and transplant it up here. But I don’t know where they’re doing it. I mean obviously they’re not going to tell you because at xxxxxx there’s a whole field there and they have a watcher out every year, people go and pinch them if they can. But you know it’s ...

INT: I mean to what extent do you think local people should be involved or consulted about

things like this? MSX: Well I think they should be in as much as it would ... the general ... there would be far more

interest taken in the project whilst it was being undertaken and also when it was finished really. It’s like everything isn’t it ... it’s like Neighbourhood Watch in a village .... curtain twitchers, you know, I know most of the cars that come here. If there’s a car I don’t know I’m dotting from one window to another, being told off by my husband in the meantime, but I just say no, it’s not being nosey-nosey, it’s just being on the lookout .... and I think the same thing afterwards, I mean, it got me a bit worried, because it got terribly ... the reeds got very very bunched up. Now one family who lived at No.X, the xxxxxx, they come back and see me on a Sunday and they go to ?????? and he said, oh it’s looking a mess down there, so he .... away from it, he works full time, he said it’s ... this part of the river that it was deviated from or whatever, he said it’s looking awful. I said yes I know. How can you put it into words. There’s no one you can ring up ... I mean, I do, I get very busy sometimes. I get National River Waters or whatever ... I just don’t know whose in charge of it you see. If anybody wants or needs to know any questions or queries they go to the Trust. And he was very xxxx in his office, down there, walking people and that, he told me once, my paperwork’s got to about a foot high. But it’s now how it came over it should be.

INT: Would you say ... or how satisfied would you say you were with the consultation that they

gave people about what was going on?

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MSX: Well there was only maybe two, maybe three meetings, and that was it. But as I say, they’d worked out exactly what they were going to do, when they were going to do it. The only thing that was holding them up was the letters they had sent to the various farmers to say would they leave something like 6 metres away from the river as natural... and I think the XXXXXX’s farm is National Trust, as is XXXXXXXX’s, and I don’t know how much further up they went actually that way, no. They only got about a mile down the other way. So it’s a hell of a lot.

INT: Would you say the consultation was a success or not? MSX: Not ... consultation I suppose, the information that was given out was interesting ....

successful ... yes and no, not really ... well, ... INT: Do you think it could have been improved in any way? Was there anything else you’d

have liked to have seen or known about, you know? MSX: Well yes, knowing that they don’t want people to walk down by the river to see the wildlife,

and yet documentaries on television you see how this has been improved, or that’s been improved, and I have recently, and I can’t put a name to them because I can’t remember, and it’s marvellous, saying I can go down with my binoculars and I can look at the birds and so on. There’s nowhere there, nowhere at all. Alright, they’ve put the gate in, so I can actually open that ... but I thought it was just stiles, and then I said to the Forestry side, the National Trust, why couldn’t you have put in a Kissing Gate. Oh that’s too expensive, well I’m thinking but they work with wood, you know, the wood’s in the .... and I mean I’m thinking where does the expense come? I know there is expense in anything, but they’ve got the predominant thing, the wood ...

INT: How much do you see the river as being a local property? Or do you see it as being local

property? MSX: Not really no, it’s xxxxx. Local to the village you mean? INT: Yes. MSX: No. Not really. INT: Would you say you feel involved in any sense with the river? MSX: Not really no. Once when I had my last dog, it must have been 6 or 7 years ago, I was

walking down there and I could see this oil slick on it, so I rang up, I think it was probably National Rivers, and they went oh thank you very much for telling us, and I said well it’s quite thick down here, and they said heavens it’s got to the River Cole, and I said what is it. It turned out that it was a disused petrol ... I’m not sure whether it was a big one, or whether it was drums ... and who knows, two got tipped into the river. Somebody had noticed it something like 10 days before, and thought somebody else had rung in. See this is the way my husband says you’re nosey. I said no I’m not, it doesn’t matter is 5 people ring in so long as when you see it you do. So of course by my phoning in it had got down this far from somewhere in Swindon which is like 12 miles away. So then they were putting the booms up, bit bloody late, but still, better late than never. But no, we still have now, swans

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and the moor hens are back, so there’s a lot of life. The voles, we used to have water voles in, I haven’t seen them, used to. But I thought I had to take down an apple because they like apples.

INT: Do they? MSX: Yes. Apples, grape predominantly fruit. But then you look and you see where the cattle

go in and you’re not really quite sure if they’re still. They’ve got voles, you know banks. They might be on the other side. I don’t know, but you see, this is it, you can’t get in this side. It’s stopping me from walking the other side and that is deep down annoying me. To go that way, you’ve got the ... I’m not very good on distances ... but you’ve got probably about quarter of a mile, ... I can’t get down the bank which is which is ... people who use the short cut, get to the village, shoot down the side, no forget it ... then you’ve got to walk all the way across there ... they did it. xxxxxxx went with them when they did it the first time to show people what the river was like. And I have to say no I’m sorry ... it’s not that I don’t want to ... So...

INT: So you’re not involved at all? MSX: No. INT: Do you think there are many people in the village that would feel or be involved in any way

with the river? MSX: Not really. I don’t think anything occurs that ... the opportunity .. there is a boat, I think

xxxxxxxx at xxxxxx has got a boat. INT: Has he? MSX: Yes. I mean in what condition it’s in I don’t know. I also know the xxxxxx’s, they ...

only this summer I think I saw them carrying it down. But again, how far they go, what they do in it, I don’t know. The children are inclined to jump off the bridge which they’ve been advised, on account of this algae, they shouldn’t. They shouldn’t do it, but you might as well talk to yourself. You know, again, something that’s happened for years and years, so why shouldn’t we do it. And the fishermen of course, they go again. My husband always says he’s going to take up fishing, but I can’t see him sitting still. Perhaps I ought to do it for him. From that point of view, no. I mean, I’d love to do painting or something, but there’s always something else to do.

INT: One of the things that they said they were trying to do here was to make the river more ....

restore it to a more sort of natural condition. If I were to say to you, how would you describe a natural river, what would you say?

MSX: Babbling brooks. INT: Babbling brooks ... MSX: Yes. Very ... I mean, again, I haven’t been on the far side, so I’ve got to make an effort. I

should have gone this week through the gates. I can’t climb gates you see, that’s my

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problem, but yes, again, I’ve seen it just recently because I tape Country File every Sunday, and the last three weeks we haven’t got to watch it. One of them had been put back to it’s naturalness, and I thought xxxxxx it never went up above the natural line. Sort of scrabbley stones, you know. You probably didn’t get many fish in that sort of river, and then on a sort of level coming down and straightening out ... different levels. Pebbles, and ... you could walk across it. Yes, a sort of babbling brook, not very deep.

INT: And what about sort of vegetation? MSX: Well vegetation ... a lot going up the bank ... I can’t say specifically what, but no a fair

amount of vegetation, overhanging you know, over the years, overhanging, so that’s where you get your otters and your voles, and your moor hens have got something to sort of skid into. Yes, to me, that’s nice. I say, my trees, my trees. If some trees have been planted in, you’d have thought oh yes that’s where it is, that would be ... and each week and each month, you could see what was going to happen, you know. The other difference is ... all I see mainly from it, is to the right of the bridge, you see how nice and open it is, and you see the fishermen sitting down there, perhaps more than they ever used to. But beyond that, no.

INT: Do you think that the managers, the people who did the project, had perhaps a different idea

of what they think a natural river would be like or not? MSX: Well I think so. I mean this is it, I can’t understand why they had to ... I suppose the Trust

gave them the permission actually .. but I can’t understand why they put it back to the way it was. I know with conservation this is it, return it to its natural state. But that must have cost money to do all of this. So that’s cost that much more, and I can’t see it’s going to prove anything, except for when it floods .. I don’t know. You know what I mean, if the moor hens and the swans can survive in it as it is now, why did they need to have what I call that paddling area. I mean if it was going to bring in a load more ducks, mind you, having said that, six Canada geese have actually been up there as well.

INT: Have they? MSX: They have. Yes. Which is another good thing. So they all say shoot them because

there’s too many of them. But no fair enough. No, I just ... INT: Do you think ... thinking about before they did the scheme and now .. how natural would

you say that the river was before the scheme and how natural do you think it is now? MSX: To me, actually, apart from the fact having seen them use the machines and clear out a lot of

the sludge or whatever you like to call it at the bottom, it actually started the roots growing twice as fast in some cases, very little difference, to be honest. Well the last time the river got dredged I think, for want of another word, was 12/13 years ago. Not as long as that, about 10 maybe, 11 years. So if that had happened, you know what I mean, it would have been the same. I can’t understand why they wanted to divert the water course. I never have found out why. You know, people would say, isn’t it marvellous, it’s gone back to the way it was, and I have to sort of clock off and say well no, I just don’t know why.

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INT: I mean compared to maybe other rivers that you’ve been to in the past, would you rate the river here now as being as natural as them, or more or less?

MSX: No. There’s not enough growth on the side. Nothing’s been replanted. Because I

brought up that at that meeting and I said what about, you know, trees or bushes or ... oh yes, yes we’re going to plant them in ... and where we can transplant we will.

INT: Right. They definitely said that? MSX: Oh yes, they did. And I haven’t seen any down there at all. I know I keep going on

about it ... I know there’s reeds ... so long as they don’t go out, you know, cause aggravation like those silver birches, but this is why I know what to plant and I don’t, because you know the roots don’t go straight down ... oaks do, they’re the only ones I know that go straight down. So no, I think there should be more foliage and more shrubbery .. but as I say, it’s gone through across a working field ... and that part hasn’t been fenced off ... it could be I’m sure ... but it hasn’t been fenced off, because it means someone would have to buy that much land ... again it always comes back down to money.

INT: How feasible is it do you think to talk about ... I’m talking about generally ... restoring

rivers these days? MSX: I think there’s a lot to be said for it. But I was going to say where does the water come

from .. I mean the water board take X number of gallons ... I say gallons, it’s probably a great deal more ... from rivers. I know they’ve been stopped from doing it to such a degree, but unless we’re going to have more bore holes, which I don’t even know if it’s possible in this country ... no I don’t know. You’ve got to have water haven’t you to keep the rivers up and running. I don’t know. There’s so many. There’s a ??????. But they’re saying it’s because the water has been taken out, for human consumption, so what do you do? You know, you have that lovely ... I mean there’s so many in the country, I couldn’t ... I can’t even begin to remember half of them ... and you think Oh my God, you know ...

INT: I mean do you think it’s sort of realistic to talk about restoring rivers to ... back to what they

used to be like if you like, back to their natural state? MSX: Well I don’t think so because I think that the ... well, I mean, maybe the odd one or two ... I

have the same feeling when it comes to ... when they suddenly discover a house, you know, the Roman century, and I say to xxxxxxx, but we’ve already got one, surely we only need one, that could be looked after well, that people can visit whether they’ve got to drive 500 miles if they’re so inclined. But why do they keep having to spend all this money. Look after those that are reliable, something else that’s different ... and to me rivers would be the same. If they’ve got a use, obviously, to maintain them, and hopefully, as they used to be ... but not really to create any further ... I don’t know, I mean it might come back, but there are so many people now ... do you know, if they’ve taken water from the rivers, if they’d left them as they were ... I mean our population is just so enormous. You know, now they’re thinking of doing all this sewerage ... you know, sewerage going through and cleaning it etc. etc. I mean, yes, a guy said the other day, maybe that’s the way it’ll have to be, cut it off, take the water from underneath the City of London ... that’s great .. and then you’re going to get all buildings drying out, dropping over, I mean, have they really stopped

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to think about it. It can’t be that much ... you might be getting a half inch to an inch every year ... and that to me, it’s the same thing, like you restore the river, up to now that’s fine because I mean that’s solid water isn’t it ...

INT: Yes you were saying ... MSX: With regards to the rivers, I don’t think a lot of them ... it’s a sensible idea. If they’ve gone

through natural reasons they should be allowed to stay that way, not necessarily upset the ground or anything ... and then whose to know, you know, 100 years, 200 years from now, you might suddenly get it all coming back ... but it’s because people remember it as when it was young, they could sit and they could watch it, it’s soothing water isn’t it ...

INT: It is. MSX: Lots of wildlife, animals and birds. INT: I mean, we talk about having tamed our rivers, sort of in the past, most of them, and

controlled them. Do you think that’s a good thing? Does it matter that we’ve done that? MSX: Well I think yes, in some ways, it does matter .. but it’s like everything else, you try and

take out of the environment, don’t you, that which is useful ... which is natural ... but you don’t necessarily think years ahead. I mean now you’ve got .. you know, we’re trying to teach the youngsters, aren’t we? Conservation and all the rest of it. It makes me laugh really, because I think I’m sure we were told a lot of this when we were young, we just put our tongue in cheek and said we’ll do it our way. But no, it’s I think it’s that the population has grown. The commodities have been there and they’ve been used to the detriment of the surroundings, in a sense, you know. No, nobody really sort of .. probably thought about it, but they thought nature being nature it’ll just reverse what it needs to ... I mean it just doesn’t happen that way. Well, having said that, when you stop to think, further out, I think probably only in the last 10 to 15 years, one has presumably ... you know ... a volcano going off 10,000 miles away, is going to ultimately affect us, but before I don’t think it ever ... because scientists are more open with what they learn and know ... we’re going to get the picture a great deal better now than we ever did, but ...

INT: I mean, do you think controlling a river or taming ... sort of managing it makes it less ... MSX: I keep thinking of these massive great ... like Gobi damns, or whatever ... you know, it was

terrible ... no, I mean, ... INT: Do you think it’s less natural ... the river .. by doing things like that? MSX: No, not necessarily. This is a perfect example, in a sort of way. It’s been put back to what

it was. As far as I’m concerned, coming to this area, what was wrong with it before. I’m not saying I walked the whole length of it .. but parts of it I’ve walked and it has been as nice to walk down there as say .. oooh, I can’t think of another one round here... you see I was brought up in xxxxx ... oh, I know, there’s ... off xxxxxx actually .. behind the xxxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxx are ..., it’s there own flat, they bought it ... they’ve got a warden that goes around checking them ... and he looks after the ducks and he cuts back the undergrowth ... I said you’re joking. He said no I’ll do it again this year. For all the ducks

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come up, like 20 of them, and the next time they come down there’s only 10 of them because of the foxes and that .. but that is like a babbling brook, very dark, and so if he didn’t cut that back, ... so I said, but they’re meant to have these men aren’t they, for all councils that walk the rivers, yes?

INT: I don’t know. MSX: Yes, they do. This is where Country File is a terrific programme on Sunday ... they’re

actually meant to walk the river because that is where you get so much junk. I mean you get shopping trolleys, you get the cans and the bottles ... absolute junk and garbage thrown in there .. and then you’ve got this one place, is it Gloucester? Somewhere, which has got this blue, which is highly deadly, algae ...

INT: Oh, I don’t know. MSX: Yes, I should know shouldn’t I .. I’ve heard it often enough ... it’s been two or three times

this last year ... and of course what do the children do? ... we love going paddling don’t we? So they’re up and down aren’t they, so a couple of them fall ill .... older people can get terrible diarrhea and gastro-enteritis from it ... but those are the sort of places, well, say these people ... you know, that’s xxxxxx ... because xxxxxx, he’s gone back to his roots basically, from working for years in xxxxxx, but it’s lovely ... it’s all down there ... too wide, but you can walk it, you can look over the bridge at it, and you’re miles away. But no, I mean ... I’ve forgotten what the question was ...

INT: I was asking whether you thought it made it more or less natural, but I ...? MSX: No. Not really, no. It makes more use of it. But I don’t think ... INT: Do you feel, overall, then .. would you say that you’ve approved of what they’ve done here

or not necessarily? MSX: Well, I don’t know that ... I think they reckon it could take up to three years to have any ...

what’s the word, not viability .. to have made any difference. But .. so you accept that at the ... as how it’s put .. but you think in what capacity. I don’t know. I did miss one of the meetings as I say up there, so it would be nice now if they suddenly had a meeting saying right, well we’ll get you all together and find out all your views, and we’ll tell you how we feel it’s gone. They might do it, I don’t know.

INT: Yes. Several people have suggested that actually. MSX: Well I don’t think it would be a bad idea, because, to be honest, since it was taken over ... I

haven’t got the literature with me, have I ... they actually said ... ?????????? INT: Oh is that the leaflet? MSX: But there was a bigger one. How to lure back the otter - I took that out. The Kennet. INT: Kennet? Oh yes.

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MSX: Yes. Weird that, anyhow. I think ... well I said the river Cherwell, didn’t I say the Cherwell as well ...

INT: I think you did yes. MSX: I think it was on television the other day. INT: We did a project on the Kennet a couple of years ago. On low flows there .. they were

having low flow problems, yes. MSX: Oh. Well, again, you see this is it, it just ... I don’t know, whether it’s the atmosphere that is

actually drawing it out rather than all of it being used ... you know, I don’t know how ... and they say they can take out so many gallons of water a day, you think, how can that river survive if they do .. you think, well where does the water come to the river in the first place? They’re taking it out. Is it actually going back in through ... I think it’s through sewerage. You see we’ve got the sewerage works right on here, and the guy that was in charge of this some four or five years ago xxxxxxx. He got done at xxxxx polluting the river. So, he didn’t lose his job or anything ... but you know, out of the money that he’s allowed, I think they had to pay about two or three thousand pounds compensation, but if this goes wrong, guess who’s on the phone.

INT: You. MSX: There’s a problem, not enough water gets in ... you watch the thing going round ... and the

stink is unbelievable. People pass by and say it’s you and I say no it’s not. Every now and again my husband says, oh no, I haven’t got to lift up that lid again have I? I say well you’d better do just in case it is. But no, it’s that down there, and the lorry came out at half past eleven one Sunday night ... they emptied it three times that week, and then Wednesday morning they came back and emptied it three more times. I’m lucky if I get that done once every six years ... she smells it over there, they smell it up to about No.X... but it’s the same old story, nobody knows who to ring. Do you know what I mean? So over the years I’ve done it they usually say oh it’s that nice lady xxxxx. I say this lady’s not nice any more. I’m fed up with this. But what did they say in this?

INT: I’m going to have to make a move actually. Don’t worry. Well, thanks a lot for your

time. MSX: Here you are. That’s what they said look after that ... [END OF INTERVIEW]

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 19 - 31st OCTOBER 1997 INT:: If I can start by asking you how successful you think the restoration scheme has been, or

whether you think it’s been successful and on what grounds you would ...? MSX: I think it’s been successful scenically. It is becoming successful environmentally, because

you are seeing all things including mink. So from that point of view, I don’t think there’s any doubt. What we don’t know and really we won’t know for a long time is if there are extremes of weather, how ... what will happen, and I think from that point of view, all you can do is wait and see. I can see why it would work to hold the water up river, and that sort of thing, and from that point of view, I guess it will work for what they want. If it doesn’t. But what I don’t know, what I’m puzzled about is ... we had a freak storm some years ago, we had four inches of rain in two hours, and there are things like that that you begin to wonder ... we had quite a lot of flooding. I’m just interested to see. I’m not saying it’s not going to work but we just don’t know, and I don’t suppose we’ll know for many years actually.

INT:: Well we haven’t had the rain have we? MSX: No, it’s been very dry. I mean we can paddle through the river with xxxx in his green

boots that high you know, through the fords, which is great fun. INT:: OK. What about perhaps for recreational purposes, do you think it’s made much difference

down there to the local people or anyone? MSX: No not really. Because they’ve cordoned off that area of scientific interest and so in a

sense they’re slightly discouraged. You don’t see ... unless I take the children along walking ... you don’t actually see children playing down there. I don’t think from that point of view it is. I think for the ones who are interested to go along and have a look, yes, but not recreational, no I don’t think so.

INT:: What do you see as perhaps being the most important aspect or success in the project in

your opinion? MSX: I think it’s ... leaving aside the practical side of it working and doing what it’s supposed to

do ... I think it’s the environmental thing really. I mean we went with ... a group of us went down there the other day and they had this electronic fish catching to see what’s there, and there were these little ... I don’t know what they’re called ... they were bullhead ... tiny fish that skulk along the bottom ... well they reckon that they had disappeared from there and that they’re coming back. So things like that, I mean I think that’s important. I’m not mad about the mink. But you’re seeing more birds down there. The first Canada Goose came back yesterday.

INT:: Did it? MSX: Yes.

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INT:: I saw something take off and fly away and I was too far away to see what it was Do you think the different people in the village perhaps would see the restoration as a success in different ways?

MSX: Yes. I think ... leaving aside the indifference factor ... yes. I don’t think that they ... I

think one comment would be that there was an awful lot of money spent on it, you know, that sort of thing. But I think yes, those who are genuinely interested. I’m not sure how great an interest they would really take if I’m honest. I think it’s much more interesting to the environmental agencies and the river people and all that lot, they’re all at it

INT:: What would you see as perhaps being the most important benefit for you from this? Or

would you see one from the project? MSX: Apart from my extended dog walking ... Yes, visually I think, ... I rather like seeing the

bridge and everything, obviously as it grows up it’s going to be interesting. So I would say it’s a visual thing as much as anything. I mean I do think .. particularly below the river, downstream, it’s very pretty down there, and growingly so. Upstream it’s going to take longer. I love the new sweep they did. I think that was wonderful. I mean that’s transformed that grove of ??? with it - wonderful. Yes. So I think visually, yes, there’s quite an impact. I mean ... that’s one of the things I would say the vista from here as it were. ... And you can skate on it when it’s very cold.

INT:: Really. MSX: It was very very cold last winter and they skated on it. It was wonderful. INT:: Was it thick, the ice? MSX: It was very thick. INT:: I mean do you remember last time I came down, you knew that they were going to do the

project, and you knew a bit about what they were going to do, can you remember what your initial expectations were? What were you expecting it to be like? Does that sort of match up with what it’s actually been like, now that it’s been done?

MSX: Yes, I think it does. Yes. I think I was very well informed quite early on as to roughly

what was going on. I mean I don’t think they knew quite what was going on, because I think the design preceded the figures by about 10 minutes. They were rushing around trying to find drawings to do the next bit, because the contractors were working on it so fast, because of course it was wonderful weather to do it. But I mean I think yes, I think it does probably. I didn’t know they were going to do that last [meander] but I think that was quite the most dramatic bit. That I didn’t expect and that I think exceeds if you like any expectations I had, because I think that looks wonderful, really good.

INT:: What about the rest of it? That’s just more or less ... ? MSX: More or less how I imagined it I think. Certainly the bottom end was how I hopefully

imagined it was going to be.

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INT:: What part would you say that the river plays in your life and in the life of the local community around here? Do you think it plays an important role?

MSX: Well, look, the children fish, for example, so I suppose ... I mean, I’m a bit unkind about

the recreational side of it, I mean they do fish although xxxxxxx Fishing Club have the rights to quite a lot of it. I think they sneek down anyway. I think from the horse-riding fraternity’s point of view it’s quite fun too, because down river now they’ve got the fords and it’s made it all rather interesting down there. So I suppose it does have an impact.

INT:: Do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape? MSX: Yes I think it is. I’m not sure it’s always recognised as such, but yes I think it is actually. INT:: Do you think that when they were designing and planning the project they took into account

the local uses of the river area? MSX: I don’t know. I’m not sure that they did, necessarily. I’m not sure that anybody ever told

them what the local use was. I mean they did in terms of the football club, for example, I mean they made plans for that. And I think they did make plans for the fords and the horses and the cattle and so on. But I think the working use, if you like, was well planned for. I’m not so sure about, if you like, the average villager, and I think in a way I’m a bit sad that that area of scientific interest has been fenced off because that was a natural safe access to it.

INT:: Now who’s fenced that off? Is it the National Trust, the restoration people? MSX: I don’t know. I mean there is this sign that says this is an environmentally sensitive area,

or whatever it is, and then there’s the ???? on the far side. I’m not sure who did that. I think that’s a bit of a shame, because normally we would walk around the field, across the bridge, and then you’ve got access there. Now I think part of that may be xxxxx. They’re quite protective. So I suspect that might be part of it.

INT:: And has it actually stopped people who don’t go in there now? MSX: Yes. INT:: They don’t... MSX: Yes. because the barbed wire is actually ... I nip across occassionally, but I don’t think that

by and large people do. I think they’re detered by the notice on one side, and they’re detered by what is a three strand barbed wire fence and quite difficult to get in through, so I think they are detered, yes. I mean I’m sure from the environmental point of view ... I noticed that the Canada Goose went into that area and so I can see from a wildlife point of view that ... I suppose it’s a good thing .. except I don’t know, you walk along the path. I mean wildlife has been used to people walking along paths for donkey’s years and I would have thought it would have been better to fence off the two areas on either side of the park and say OK don’t touch. But I think that’s a pity actually.

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INT:: Yes, several people have said that. You know, the project’s been done, they would like to go and look at the river, but now they can’t.

MSX: You really have to go over the road, under the railways and around, and that is actually ... I

mean I take this lot [indicating children] down, you know, crossing that bridge, there’s no footpath, and we do have a busy road.

INT:: It’s very busy, they come speeding along. Yes. MSX: Oh do they not. Exactly. So you’re actually, I wouldn’t say you’re taking your life ... that

would be overdoing it. INT:: It would be dangerous. MSX: Yes, exactly. INT:: How much do you see the river as being local property in the area? Do you see it as being

sort of local property if you like? MSX: That’s an interesting one. I suppose I’d say I wish it were, partly because of that exclusion.

In a way, it is and it isn’t ... again back to the horses, yes. They’ve got rather a nice little arrangement. I would like it to be more ... most of the groups I see going round are not local groups, they come from ??? People who come specifically to look at the project. Again, I have to say it’s a shame, I mean, to be fair, there is quite a lot of local involvement. It would be nice if there was a greater feeling of ownership at the moment, I think, which perhaps isn’t there.

INT:: Do you think many people in the village would think of it as local property? MSX: No, probably not. It’s sort of there, sort of. INT:: No they probably don’t think about it. Now you were involved, weren’t you, to quite an

extent with the consultation process? With what was going on, the meetings and things. MSX: Yes. They were very good about that. INT:: Yes. You think ... MSX: I think on the whole they were very good about that because I mean they approached the

Parish Council originally, but that was at the stage when we were one of half a dozen they were looking at. I always felt there was a hidden agenda. I felt sure they were goong to do this one because I think there was a very practical reason for doing it, which is holding water upstream and ?????? so I always felt there was a slight hidden agenda, but that aside, to be fair, they did consult, and people like xxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx would always come to Council meetings and they did actually come and make a presentation and so I think that nobody could feel that it hadn’t been talked about enough. I think on that side they were very good and there was plenty of consultation. So you have to take into account, if you like, local indifference, if people are now saying well you know ...

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INT:: I didn’t know, they didn’t ask me ... yes. MSX: Yes. I think everybody had an opportunity because when we had the open meeting with

the Parish Council, everyone knew it was happening, so there was no earthly reason why they couldn’t all turn up. So the only reason for not turning up in my view was indifference.

INT:: Some people ... a couple of people ... have said they didn’t know about it. MSX: Well in that case they had to have their eyes and ears firmly closed because for example all

the notices in the shop on the noticeboard, we really did very widely advertise the fact that it was going on. So I really do think they would have had to have had their ears shut I would say. See now, Minutes of the Parish Council meeting go to every house in the village, so even if ...in the early days they didn’t ... in the last two years they’ve been getting Minutes. So it would be very difficult to say that they weren’t really informed, but then a lot of them will do ????

INT:: Do you think that people going to these meetings have been able to give their opinions?

Do you think that’s had any input into what was actually done on the ground? Into the design, or the planning or any of the details of the project?

MSX: I don’t think so, only because the input wasn’t really like that. I mean, there was a lot of

chat about it and a lot of listening. I wouldn’t say that anybody had anything ... it sounds ... I don’t mean that rudely now, but there wasn’t the sort of constructive comment about which you could say well, ... I think they did talk to xxxxx at xxxxxx a lot, and I think that he probably did have some input because it affects him, and I think they were pretty careful to take him along with them. So I think while it was important, that sort of local view, and obviously with people like xxxxxxx, who probably will complain about it, but nonetheless did to be fair, be consulted a great deal as was xxxxxx so I think yes, if you like, local problems were taken into account, but possibly not for those sort of meetings, because that really wasn’t the place where they were identified. You know, I think people were just listening and learning about it. Although I think it did provide them with a forum had they had a problem with it. I think it would have been the forum where it could have been raised.

INT:: Would you say that you were satisfied with the consultation process or do you think it could

have been improved in any way? MSX: I think on the whole I was actually, because I think they went to a lot of trouble. And when

they had the grand opening, as it were, all the village were invited. INT:: Were they? MSX: Yes, anyone who wanted to come. INT:: Because again, people said I wasn’t invited, and I would have liked to have been. MSX: No, they’re confusing it. When we opened it, the whole village could have gone at the top

there.

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INT:: Sure. That’s ... yes. MSX: There was ... INT:: I thought you meant the other ceremony recently. MSX: That was absurd, it wasn’t really anything at all. That was really getting all the

environmental agencies in for a party because they wanted to show it off, and it was organised by the river restoration people, hosted by the National Trust, but I think with the exception of one or two people who were helping out, xxxxx was invited, and one or two others, farmers and so on and so forth were invited. But it wasn’t really the sort of party they’d have wanted to go to anyway, to be honest. I think xxxxxxx probably should have been invited, and wasn’t, but I think I’d said to her I would go anyway if you want to, ????? she could, because I don’t think it was that much of an official do. I know why because they feel that if it’s a party we should be there. It wasn’t really that sort of a party.

INT:: To what extent do you think that people should be involved? MSX: I think as much as possible in something like that. This is why, on general subjects ...

opened the Parish Council to a public meeting, because at least that way they discover what’s going on and what you’re doing and from time to time you get some very useful suggestions. And also when they know you’ll hear one problem they’ll say well there’s a bit of a problem elsewhere because and so ... I think it’s extremely important that everyone should have the opportunity. There will only be a couple of handfuls of people who will actually take advantage of it, but nonetheless, it’s important that everybody has the chance. I mean it’s a very close village this. And it does do a lot of things together. And it’s awfully easy to bulldoze. I think it’s lovely, because xxxxxx and I said to him early on, I know I’m an awful bully and I’m very bossy, and so you’ve actually got to stop and say, which he does, he’s brilliant, he says I’ve been thinking about this, and I think ... here comes a word of wisdom. He’s very good. But I do think there is a danger of bulldozing and so if you have open meetings then people say, hang on, or something like that, which is a good thing. And in the end if what you were saying is right, they’ve debated it and they will sort of settle for the greater view, if you like. I mean not mine being the greater view, the greater being the majority view, which is a help.

INT:: One of the things that the river restoration project said one of the aims was to restore the

river back to make it more sort of natural, if you like... it’s interesting, different people’s perception of what a natural river should be like ... if I were to ask you to describe a natural river, what would you say? What would you see a natural river as being?

MSX: Well, not the way it is now. I mean largely because it is a new cut, a lot of it, and therefore

there isn’t the growth, although it was actually interesting ... all that watercress and things .. it’s all fascinating. But for the moment at any rate, it still looks a tiny bit sort of sculpted out. But I think that’s a matter of time. That certainly isn’t how I would describe it, I would look at a river and look at the mature vegetation on either side and at the moment you clearly don’t have that. But I think that is a matter of time. And I’m not sure .. those narrow channels, I can’t quite visualise how that’s going to look, because normally a river is broader and so the vegetation .. if you like there’s a gap ... whereas some of those are

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quite narrow, so you’re going to continue to have clear bits, but I think, ask me in 10 years time and then I’ll tell you whether I think it looks like my perception of a river, if you see what I mean.

INT:: Yes, well going back to what your perception would be ... would you see it as being perhaps

lots of vegetation, trees, or meandering or shallow ...? MSX: Yes. I think it’s form is right, in that you do, you see all those ??? channels that are formed

from ??? on the shallow area and so on, and I love the rippling effect of part of it as it runs over that ford and then down into the bit ... the bit that looks almost mature of course is that top bit again, because it is a deep channel that runs into those rivers and so you have that wonderful start to it which looks as though it’s been there forever, which is, that’s where the swans nest and had three babies this year, three, and then two, and then one ... I don’t know what happened to the one, I haven’t seen it. But that virtually ???????????? quite safely away from everyone, and had her three babies. So that is super, but I think the other places, it’s forming and you’re seeing the way it’s forming those channels. It’s carving out it’s own course, and it’s beginning to look more natural, it did look funny, a sort of sculptured sad look, you know, that sort of thing, but there wasn’t any water in it. But it’s beginning to look more like a river now.

INT:: I mean do you think it looked natural before they did it, compared to now, would you say it

looks more or less natural now? MSX: I think for the moment it probably looks less natural. But again that’s a matter of time. INT:: Do you think the managers, the restoration people, have a similar sort of perception of what

a natural river would be like. MSX: Listening to them talking, yes, I think so. Yes. I think that ... yes, I do actually. It was

quite interesting watching them and listening to them talking as it went along. So I ended up feeling rather aggressive about it because people like xxxxxx were going to have a problem and I felt very sorry for her because at that stage xxxxxxx, and was clearly a bit fraught, undertandably, about the whole thing. ... because xxxxxx had been terribly worried, and xxxxxxxx was obviously in a bit of a state about it, and there were one or two people sort of walking around who perhaps didn’t know what they were talking about, but ???????? and I remember meeting them and speaking ... feeling very aggressive about it, and saying things like, you know, are you sure you know what you’re doing, and things like that. And they were very polite, because I think I probably was quite aggressive, and we talked and talked and talked and I decided that I actually had a feeling that they ... if they didn’t know exactly what they were doing, because I don’t think anybody knew what they were doing ... that much ... I mean even if you tested in all kinds of funny places in models and things, nobody accounts for Mother Nature, but I felt that they actually had done a lot of investigation and therefore, yes, I think they more or less knew what they were doing. But it was a funny relationship to start with.

INT:: Yes, I was going to come on to that actually, and then ask to what extent you think they

know how to restore rivers? The river restoration people .... but I think you’ve probably just answered that.

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MSX: Yes, I suppose I have. I would only add, that I think I don’t see how anyone can actually quite know, really. You can apply all kinds of tests and things, but in the end you’ve just got to wait. But I think to the extent that they did a lot of investigative work, and I think they did try to follow the old path, although it meandered a lot less I suspect than it actually does now, but then that’s no bad thing. I suspect everybody’s on a big learning process actually. The next one they do, they’ll probably do something different. Maybe then they’ll find out from here, but I don’t feel badly about that at all. I mean I think they take great care, because I was terribly oppressed by the contractors who actually were very kind and helpful and neat and tidy and caused minimum disruption, so there was never a problem with the working while it was going on, which one rather thought there might be, but actually, in fact, they were extremely good, which was pleasing.

INT:: Would you say that you feel you trust the restoration people to do what they think is best

down there at the river? MSX: Yes I think so. I’ve two concerns now. One is ... there is a very good maintenance

agreement, because my fear of all these projects is that everybody drops it and goes away ... that worries me ... I’m reasonably satisfied that there is a good agreement, the Trust and the RRP ... but the thing is how long with the RRP go on? Will they go on forever restoring rivers or will it come to a natural end? That sort of question’s on my mind.

INT:: Yes. MSX: So I wouldn’t say I’m concerned about it. I just have a reservation at the back of my mind

that there could come a moment that it’s all doing what it’s doing and everybody is somewhere else and not quite where we want them to be. So that’s one .. there’s another one ... what was the other one? Oh I know. The planting ... they have done some planting. I think that you can’t just leave Mother Nature entirely on her own on this one, I think that there has to be a little bit of landscaping to help it along the way, and I would like to think that they’ve got some pennies in their back pocket for that. I wouldn’t like them just to go away and say oh well it’ll be alright, because at the moment for example, we have thistles everywhere.

(Interruption by children and parrot!) INT:: Would you say that you see the restoration as being scientific? MSX: Yes, I think so, I would. Yes, I think it’s a very imprecise science. But I think yes, they

have applied fairly scientific principles to it, and there’s obviously a lot of monitoring going on which is good, so yes, I think so.

INT:: Would you have any idea what type of knowledge you think is needed for a project like

this? MSX: A tremendous amount of botanical knowledge, on that side. I think there’s a blend of

idealism and practicality which is quite interesting in the development of it. Clearly there has to be quite a lot of technical knowledge about it, but I think again that’s slightly suck it and see, probably they’ve got it moderately right, but I’m not sure how scientific it can be really, but I think certainly for it’s improvement the botanical knowledge is very important

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and the bugs and the things ... I mean that’s all rivetting stuff and there’s a lot of people monitoring it, which is great, so I think that is good.

INT:: Any other type of knowledge you think they need? MSX: I suppose the legacy now is the landscaping knowledge and how to just if you like help

Mother Nature to create perhaps a little bit quicker than she would of her own accord. I did say the thistles worry me because it is absolutely covered in thistles at the moment and I think that they will deter the growth of other things unless there’s some treatment, and I think what they’re going to do is treat part of it with this systemic thing and see how differently it develops, which is probably the best way to do it. I don’t think you can just go out and eliminate the thistles but I think on the other hand, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to try and eliminate some and see just how that develops in a different way.

INT:: Right. (Conversation with children) INT:: Do you think there’s still a lot more that needs to be learned about restoring ...? MSX: Yes, I should have thought so, yes. I should think it’s got a long way to go. It’s quite a

nice part of the project when people learn ... I mean I don’t mind that. But I would guess there’s probably quite a lot to be learned, yes.

INT:: They sort of say that we’ve tamed most of the rivers now, in the UK and in other places as

well, would you think that that was the case? MSX: I think they might have tamed them but what interests me is that they don’t seem to have

got it quite right because the river’s drying up everywhere, so I think they might well have tamed them but I think they’ve also abused them. I mean you get all those rivers that have now dried up because the water has been taken out extensively so I think maybe they have tamed them, but I think they’ve equally abused them.

INT:: Do you think that controlling or taming a river like that makes it less natural, or more, or

doesn’t it make any difference or ....? MSX: I think it’s a two way thing that, isn’t it. I think you can ... I mean this project, in theory,

should make it more natural. I think some of the things they’ve done - no, but then if you look at the flood barrier, for example, I mean that was fairly essential, so I suppose taming is a good thing, you don’t want the whole of the river flooding.

INT:: I think that’s more or less it actually. I’m just checking to see if there’s anything else I’ve

missed. I mean on the whole though would you say you’ve been quite sort of pleased about what’s happened here?

MSX: Oh yes. INT:: You haven’t got any doubts or reservations or ... ?

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MSX: No, except the ones I mentioned. No I don’t think so. I think it’s fun. I love it. I probably do because of the dogs, tend to see it a lot and it gives me great pleasure, I have to say. So I think on the whole yes, I’m really pleased with it. And certainly I think that we’ve been treated very well really. I could have been very messy. They could have just done it, but actually it wasn’t messy and they did consult, and if you were interested you certainly had an opportunity to get involved. So I think on the whole it’s been a very good scheme. There are no complaints. And they’re very nice people I have to say, and they are very careful if you like to chat which is good, so I think on the whole, I think it’s fine. I love walking down that bottom ... In some ways they have made it more accessible thatn it was.

INT:: Yes. Yes. End of interview.

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 5 – 3rd FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Do you go down by the river very much? MrX: Not so much this river, but we do a lot of river walking. INT: Right, yes. MrX: But we used to on quite a regular basis at one time, because they did the restoration and it

rather upset the XXXX INT: I see your pictures up there, yes. MrX: Yes. INT: OK. Can I start then by asking you whether you think the project has been a success in any

way, and if so, why you think it has or it hasn’t been, and in what way do you think it might have been or not have been successful?

MrX: Difficult to express really, isn’t it? The only thing I would say about it is that where they’ve

built it up it’s a lot more stagnant than it used to be. I was talking to Willy down the village and he said when we have the hot weather there’s quite a smell comes off it, because I mean he lives on the riverside doesn’t he, and by the sewerage works as well so I suppose that doesn’t help the situation. But I think more fishermen seem to think it’s probably better. It’s probably better from the fishing point of view. And it did cause a bit of flooding when we had all that rain, which they intended it to. That was the intention so I presume from that point of view it’s obviously helped to saturate the ground a bit more, produce more flowers than it used to. When I was a lad, just a bit lower down, the fritillaries ... you couldn’t walk in a field for the fritillaries. There were literally millions of them.

INT: Really? MrX: Millions of them. INT: Have there been many since they’ve finished? MrX: I haven’t really seen fritillaries for several years now. I think probably further down they

have a few, along by Bridge Farm, but other than that, there haven’t been any fritillaries about.

INT: Do you think it actually looks better down there now than it used to or not? MrX: I don’t think so personally, no. No. Because moving water fascinates me, and well you

can’t see it moving now because they’ve slowed it down so much [Mill Leat]. But I wouldn’t think ... no I wouldn’t agree that it was better from that point of view.

INT: Do you think it might be better for people ... in a way ... to have people who can just go along

walking along the river, recreation .... that sort of thing or not?

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MrX: Well from a fishing point of view I think it was good, yes. I would admit that. But other than that I don’t think anybody does walk do they.

MrsX: At times you’ll go there, and there are people walking there, so it is used, I think. INT: Of those things that you said, reasons you thought it had been successful, what would you

think of as being the most important out of those things? MrX: I would think from the point of view that it’s held the water back from ... several hundred

yards down ... from the fishing point of view. It’s more depth of water. It probably holds more fish and probably better for ... this year will probably be better than it’s been for .... when you get the growth come ... because it’s obviously made the river a bit wider where it’s further up the bank. I think it probably benefits for rushes and little ??? sort of thing. Dragonflies, yes. So probably it’ll be better from the wildlife point of view.

MrsX: It’ll take time to gather again ... the dragonflies, because they live in the bottom don’t they? MrX: Yes, they do. INT: Do you personally see any benefits from the projects at all? Do you feel that you’ve

benefited in any way from it or not? MrX: Not ourselves I wouldn’t think, have we? Not really no. No it’s not been beneficial to us,

because we don’t fish. INT: Do you think it’s benefited, apart from perhaps the fishermen, anyone else around the

village? MrX: I don’t think so. Because it’s not the cleanest river, that’s the problem with the Cole. Of all

the rivers that we get on during the summer, which is most of the rivers going in to the Thames, the River Cole is the dirtiest of them all.

INT: Is it? MrX: The filthiest, yes. Filthy, yes. In fact we don’t get on the Cole above Sevenhampton

because it is so filthy. INT: Really? MrX: Yes, it’s the effluent from Swindon. INT: Yes. MrX: Which will always make it a dirty river. I mean years ago, when I was a kid, we used to

catch little crayfish, you turn a stone over and you could guarantee there was a crayfish, but I mean you can’t even find the stones now because it’s so murky, you know. It is murky. So it’s certainly changed in this last 40 years.

INT: You remember how it used to be..?

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MrX: I do yes. It was a lovely river at one time. Beautiful, clean. Well we learnt to swim in the

Cole. INT: Did you? MrX: Yes, just down below. Yes. INT: Where does it actually begin, do you know? MrX: The River Cole? Well some say it starts up in the hills at ??? somewhere there, but then

again I think most people think it comes from ??? in Swindon. But I think the very original starts at ????

INT: Right, and it flows into the Thames. MrX: It flows into the Thames at Letchlade, yes. Well the old Cole flows into the Thames just

below St. Johns Lock now, they’ve diverted it haven’t they, from there. ... But it was above the lock, well now it’s below the locks. And the new section they cut where they used to have a mill, when I was a boy, goes into the Thames just above Inglesham church, because there used to be a mill and everything there when I was a ... that’s all gone now.

INT: Would you say you know the river system quite well around here? MrX: I would think very well, yes. I can remember now they straightened it out there down below

here. What we used to call the blue wall and they used to have pumping, these sort of big boom things, you could hear underground pumps, pumping to all the farms, supplying their water. Of course they’ve done away with all those now. My mate that had one of the pumps restored it and that’s probably going to a museum or something that he’ll give it to in years to come.

INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do the project down there, did

you have an idea or a mental picture of what you thought it was going to look like? Did you have any particular expectations?

MrX: No we didn’t no. We didn’t even know really they were going to do it. It was all kept very

... we weren’t informed or anything, were we? When they were going to do it. How long ago was that ... two, three years ago? Yes. I can’t remember anybody ever coming and saying to us, you know, or discussing it.

INT: No. No. MrX: What they thought. They’d probably do it amongst .... I think they probably had discussions

where we probably could have gone but nobody ever came and said to us would you like to. INT: I think they had a couple of meetings and I heard they put notices up in a shop to say if

anyone wanted to go, you know, but you didn’t hear about those then? MrX: No we didn’t no.

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INT: So you weren’t involved at all in the consultation? MrX: Not really we weren’t. No, we weren’t, no. INT: Do you know whether many other people in the village were involved? MrX: I don't really know. MrsX: We didn’t talk to that many. MrX: It’s such a secret sort of place. INT: Is it? It’s not the sort of place where everyone knows everyone else’s business or anything? MrX: It’s very friendly but certainly over the hedges you might say hello ... I mean we’re probably

different. I’m a bit more outgoing than most people, but ... MrsX: but we don’t go to the pub ... MrX: And also when we came ... well we’ve been here about seven years ... MrsX: We’ve just had our seventh Christmas here. MrX: Yes. When we came here it was all elderly people, you know, living next door and where

you’ve just come from and in the last seven years they’ve all just ... well obviously passed on ...

MrsX: So many people have moved since we’ve been here ... the neighbours next door ??? he was

probably here when you first came round ... INT: Yes. MrsX: Did you? Well he grew up here, he went to the school as a little boy, so with people like that

... and he’s a big fisherman too, and his son’s ... and his son still fishes here you know, so people like that are interesting to talk to.

MrX: The old country. It was a smashing little village and it was all country people, country

yokels, and people like myself, but they seem to be getting a bit more toffee-nosed and outsiders coming in, and weekend cottages. National Trust are terrible for weekend cottages.

INT: Are they, really? MrX: Yes. INT: So there are a lot of people who just come down for the weekend? MrX: Well perhaps not just in the village, but yes, in the surrounding houses there are, yes.

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INT: Right. Yes. (Telephone rings) I was asking you about the consultation, but you weren’t involved, and you don’t know whether other people in the village were particularly involved in the consultation process?

MrX: I don’t know of anybody that was, no. Because I’m quite friendly with Willy and one or two ....

MrX: He’s never said anything has he? He didn’t think it was a very good idea. He has said that

he didn’t think it was the best of ideas, but ... MrsX: The people up here have always lived here. MrX: You see, when you get to our age you can’t accept change, and it maybe beneficial to the

future, but as I look back on it, I think well, you know, it’s probably better as it was. INT: Do you think local people should be consulted when a project like this is going ahead, that

their views should be considered? MrsX: Well it costs such a lot of money doesn’t it? And ... should they spend so much money on

such a thing? MrX: Yes, well that’s irrelevant isn’t it? I think it probably would be better if people could

communicate a little bit better, and come and say what do you think, or ... INT: Do you think ... you don’t know much what happened then as far as consultation ... I was

going to say do you think it was a successful consultation, but then you probably don’t know enough to comment.

MrX: No. Probably not, no. INT: I just wondered whether you thought it could have been improved in any way at all. MrX: What on the condition of what they’ve done? INT: Well, no. As far as sort of involving local people, letting local people know what was going

on, that sort of thing ... MrsX: Even if you have a slip of paper, it is nothing like talking, is it? If they come round and talk

to you it’s much better than a slip of paper put through the door, isn’t it? INT: Yes. Do you feel that the river plays a part in your life at all? MrX: It certainly does in mine. INT: It does. MrX: Yes, from the point of view that we hunt mink on it. INT: Oh you do?

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MrX: Yes. That’s where I got the mink there. INT: Oh. Right. MrX: That is a mink. That is a Coleshill mink, that is. INT: Is it really? MrX: Yes. Yes. INT: Oh, when was that caught? MrX: Oh I’ve had that four or five years now. We caught that on a piece of corn of Mr ???’s and

... INT: That’s further on down. MrX: It was always just a little bit delicate, was hunting, so we took it off him. But ?????? The

keeper sets traps for them. INT: Right. MrX: And he said to me one day, he said I nearly caught a mink today, he said all I caught was his

toe. And he had this little fur toe and he showed me this toe. And I thought ????? and we caught it. So I took it back and I said I got the other bit of your ... and he was quite chuffed. But they are a destructive ... terrible destructive.

INT: Are they really? MrX: Yes. Yes. I haven’t seen a waterfowl for 10 or 15 years. And yet we used to chase them

about with terriers when we were boys. Haven’t seen one for years. Moorhens ... we get 50 or 60 a season.

INT: Really? Yes. So the river does play a part in your life ... MrX: It does, definitely. I say I’ve always been fascinated with the river, the fishing ... although I

don’t do any fishing now, I used to do a lot at one time. INT: Do you think it plays an important part in the life of the local community generally around

here, the river? MrX: I wouldn’t say it does. There’s no activities or ... although people do walk their dogs ... I

suppose it does in a round about way. We do see people walking their dogs, and on a nice afternoon there’s people walking out, so it probably does. I’m probably wrong in saying that it wasn’t, but it probably does when you look at it like that.

INT: Do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape of the area or not? MrX: Yes, from my point of view, I think it would be.

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MrsX: ??????????? when you look back you see how nice it looks with the water going round ... MrX: As it comes round from the lock from the mill upwards, yes it does. It is a nice ... MrsX: There’s a lovely view from that little ??? by-road, just down here and left. INT: Right. MrsX: If you stand on the corner and look back it does look nice, doesn’t it? MrX: Yes. INT: Do you think when they were designing the project and deciding what they were going to do

down there, do you think they took into account the way local people used the river at all? MrX: Well we weren’t consulted really. So we don’t ... I would think they made up their minds to

do as they wished, which if they were spending the money, obviously it was .... you know, they’re entitled to do as they wished.

INT: Do you think that they should have taken that sort of think into consideration, the way that

local people use the river? MrX: No I don’t know whether I’d comment on that. I wouldn’t want them to come and tell me

how to dig the garden so, you know, they were spending that sort of money, they’d be entitled to ... as long as it is beneficial to the system ... because if they were making a mess of things you could turn around and say well perhaps we should have had a say in it, but ....

INT: Do you look upon the river as sort of belonging to the village in a sense, it’s like your river,

or not? MrX: Not really, do we? MrsX: It’s just a boundary. I always looked upon them as boundaries. Because they usually are

boundaries aren’t they? As councils ... MrX: Well we don’t think of it as ours, let’s put it that way. INT: So you don’t really think of it as belonging to the village? MrX: No. No. INT: Do you know much about what the people hoped to achieve with this project here? MrX: On the understanding was, which what I thought ... I’m only guessing now ... speaking for

myself like ... but they thought that they would put the bends back in to slow the water down, to try and get this probably into more wetlands again, like it obviously was many years ago, and I presume that’s what the project was for, to slow the water down and get the wetlands, to get the wildlife and insect life back into the area ... which is probably will succeed in doing that I would think, because we’ve had all this rain. It certainly has been ... plenty of water

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and ... on the fields. INT: One of the things that they said they wanted to do also was to restore the river to a more

natural condition. Now, if I was to ask you to describe to me a natural river, what would you say? How would you describe a natural river?

MrX: Well, that’s a difficult one, I suppose the natural river, how it was originally, was with the

twists and bends that they are trying to reconstruct, which is obviously how it should be. Particularly as water didn’t run, it just followed its .... you know, meanders through and trickles through the twists and turns ... with banked up sides and I’m certain that that was their intention ... I think it probably will work.

INT: If you were thinking, maybe not specifically about the river here, but a natural river

generally, what other features would you expect to see on a natural river? MrX: What, any river? INT: Yes. Or maybe a river in this type of area, a lowland river perhaps rather than an upland

river. MrX: Yes. From the point of view of ... wildlife or ...? INT: Well yes, anything. If someone should say to you, how would you imagine a natural river as

looking? MrsX: Pollarded willows. The reeds, if you draw a picture that’s what you’d draw, wouldn’t you?

Willows, definitely willows, with endless reeds, flowers like that. Dragonflies ????? I suppose.

MrX: Where you get these sweeping banks, where they’re probably going to create ... it would be

more efficient for kingfishers to nest rather than just the slow shallow ... because kingfishers tend to use fast waters.

MrX: So with the water sweeping round the corners it would obviously create a more ???? more

attractive sort of place, rather than just straight water. INT: Yes. They said the idea was to try and restore the river to its natural state. Do you think

it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring rivers like that, or do you think it’s possible really to do that?

MrX: I would think with the money anything’s possible here, isn’t it? I would think they could

well restore it to its ... it would take many years to restore it to how I can remember it as a lad, you know, when we used to ... because you could see the bottom anywhere. It didn’t matter what depth it was the water was always clean.

INT: Was it? Do you think that’s possible ... you were saying earlier about all the ... MrX: Filth coming down from ... You see, I think it probably is improving, I would think it is

definitely improving. Because the systems are getting more efficient aren’t they? The

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sewerage works and places like that are getting a lot more aware of what they have caused. And it’ll obviously improve as they make the systems more efficient.

INT: How natural would you think the River Cole here was before they did the project? Did you

think of it then as being a natural river? MrX: Yes, it was. It was quite nice before they did the ... because it had quite a nice flow and it

always had a ripple. You could see movement on the water, whereas now it’s so still. It seems a little bit dead in itself for a river.

INT: You mean straight channel bits, or the whole .....? MrX: No where it runs a lot shallower it’s nice. But where they’ve sort of kept it a bit tight, kept

the water back, it’s rather spoilt this stretch to where they’ve let it go a bit to itself. This is probably just this first 200 yards which has altered the visible side of the job. Because we always used to walk under the bridge in the summer. You can’t do it now because the water’s so deep, you can’t get under there.

INT: Oh right. Do you think it looks more natural now than it did before or not? MrX: No I don’t think it does, no. INT: No. MrX: But then it’s a bit quick to say really because it wants ?????? this year anyway doesn’t it to

re-establish itself from the point of view of growth. INT: Compared to other rivers in the area that you said you know well, how natural do you think

the river looks here now since they’ve done the project, compared to some other rivers that you know? Do you think the other rivers look more natural or do you think this one is comparable or perhaps will be in time?

MrX: Yes I think it probably will. It will be comparable I think, yes. I’m a great favourite of the

River Winbrush which is a magnificent river, but if they get their act together at the Swindon end, and stop the effluent from coming down, I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t be contained backwards.

MrsX: ??????? the view is up there, turn left, and you see the river again ??????? and it’s deep there

isn’t it? ??????? come down here isn’t it. MrX: If we get a storm that river will rise six or seven foot no problem during the night. INT: Really? MrX: Because Swindon is such a big area, but all the rainfall is drained off so quickly off the roads

and straight into the river at Swindon .. back in Swindon there. And if the river rises ... yes, it’ll rise six, seven foot in a matter of hours.

INT: Some people say that we control most of our rivers these days, that we’ve sort of tamed them,

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or we manage them. Do you think that’s true? MrX: I don’t think they’re managed half as well as they used to be. INT: You don’t? Right. MrX: No. When they used to have the old River Board and they were kept proper. INT: How long ago was that? MrX: Oh gosh. I’m probably going back 25, 30, 40 years I expect now. INT: Right. MrX: What the modern day people seem to have done ... when I was a boy there were otters about,

you know, you could see ... I mean I used to watch otters quite regular at the bottom of the Cole where it goes into the Thames.

INT: Did you? MrX: And they just come along and trim up the sides and instead of leaving the old holts and the

old trees where they were originally, which was natural to an otter, they just came along and destroyed the habitat totally. Obviously now they’re trying to put it back, so it probably would be a good thing in the long run.

INT: Do you think that the River Cole has been controlled, been tamed or not? MrX: The whole stretch or just the stretch they’ve done? INT: Both perhaps really. If we just talk about the stretch that they’ve done, do you think that’s

been controlled? MrX: To make it more proper... INT: To do anything really. MrX: Yes, I wouldn’t say there was a lot of difference but ... INT: Do you think it matters that we control rivers like that? Do you think we should do or not? MrX: I think they’re better left to their natural ways, like they used to be. But then man has done

so much destruction these last few years that, you know, it’s better to try and get it back as it was.

INT: Yes. MrX: Because years ago when the old withy trees used to have their big branches, they’d fall in the

rivers and that would retain the water and stop the flow, but they just shovelled it all out and the rivers are so dredged and cleared of their natural habitat, obviously the water just goes a

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lot quicker than it used to. INT: Do you feel a lot of them are artificial in a way, artificial channels or not? MrX: I should think there probably are. INT: Do you think that by controlling a river it makes it more or less natural or do you not think it

really makes any difference? MrX: Yes, it probably makes it more unnatural, doesn’t it. To control it. INT: Do you think it’s possible for a river to still look natural even if it has been controlled? MrX: Possibly yes. MrsX: They’ve planted .... ???? given time I suppose. MrX: Yes they’ve planted their trees .... INT: Do you think that the restoration project here has been a scientific project at all? MrX: I don’t know. How can you ... MrsX: So many things are scientific ..... INT: Yes. MrX: Could you put that a little bit more broadly? INT: Mmm. Well I suppose I’m trying to try and find out what sort of project do you think it has

been? If it maybe hasn’t been ... if you don’t think it’s been a scientific sort of project, what else has it been? If you’ve got any idea?

MrX: Not really. I can’t think of anything really. MrsX: They’ve been trying to prove something to themselves. What are they trying to prove in

doing it? A natural thing ??????????? MrX: Well I suppose their aim was to get it back as natural as possible, which they obviously will

achieve if it does come off. I would think it would anyway. INT: Would you have any idea what sort of knowledge is needed to do a project like that? MrX: Not really. MrsX: ???? MrX: I think it was quite nice as it was, but ... we’re going to have to give it several years to sort of

restore itself ...

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MrsX: Different weathers, it was going to make ...???? if it’s very wet or if it’s very dry, it’s going

to ?????????? to prove ???????????????? INT: But you don’t know what sort of knowledge you would need to do a project like that? MrX: Not really no. I suppose they’ve done it as well as anybody. MrsX: It was between the two, it was the National Trust and the river people. MrX: And was there somebody else involved? Was there three sources, two sources, or was there

someone else? INT: Well, the river restoration project was made up of the people from a number of different ...

like some of the worked for ???? environment agencies that used to be the National Rivers Authority, some work for other ... the Countryside Commission, English Nature were involved to a very small level, you know, so it’s been a number of different bodies involved really.

MrsX: ???????? I suppose they did their homework to find out how they wanted it. MrX: Because the modern day people are perhaps I should say townies or ... urbanites or whatever

but they’re trying to tell country folk like myself which I’ve had the privilege to have been here, and lived here, and they come and say no that’s not right, you should do it like this, but I mean I don’t like to argue, I’m easy going.

INT: Do you see it like that, sort of outsiders coming in and doing just what they want? MrX: I do, yes. INT: Yes. MrX: Then we didn’t have the colleges and the scientific means when we were ... we were just

country boys on the farm. I lived in the countryside. I knew nothing else really. INT: Do you think they’ve taken the local knowledge of the area into account when they did the

project? MrX: I should think they’d have needed to have, wouldn’t they? I should have thought they would

have. Because trying to get it back naturally would need some sort of guidelines in that direction wouldn’t it, but these people that study ... they go to college and study and obviously they read out of books how it should be done and then they come and put it into practice. Sometimes it works obviously.

INT: Did you know that it was a demonstration project? MrX: I don’t think we did, did we? No we didn’t know. No. INT: But it was in a sense and then with other projects, similar things have been done elsewhere.

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What hadn’t been done was ... they hadn’t been very careful monitoring before ... before they did it during and after ... things like wildlife, and water quality and all that sort of stuff, so in that sense it was new, it hadn’t been done before, so it was a demonstration site, if you like, sort of an experiment to see what would happen.

MrX: Yes. What the result was. Yes. INT: How much would you say ... to what extent do you think that the river restoration people that

were doing the project, know what they were doing, know how to restore rivers? Have you got any idea ...?

MrX: Not really no. I can’t answer that one. INT: Would you say that you felt you trusted them to know what they were doing and to do what

they thought was best for the river or not? MrX: Well I suppose they did know what was best. They might not have agreed with what I

thought but ... INT: Would you have any idea of perhaps anything else that you think might need to be learnt or

investigated about restoring rivers like this? MrX: No I can’t think of anything. No. Leave that to the experts. MrsX: Well only time will tell. ??????? MrX: These people like your old Dad and my old Grampy that could ... those sort of people could

tell you what it was .... MrsX: ????? But he’d be 90 this year. ?????????? They’re a mine of information. INT: Yes. MrX: I’ve just been privileged to know about the last 50 years, which have been terrific, they’ve

been great. Fritillaries I mean now, they’ll be in my memory forever. INT: Really. Yes. MrX: We used to pick them ... INT: Did you? MrX: You couldn’t walk for them. INT: Gosh. MrX: And beautiful plants .... have you ever been to the one at ??? where they do the ????????? MrsX: You’re from Middlesex.

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MrX: My goodness if they think they’re nice fritillaries there, they’ve never seen a fritillary. INT: Really? MrX: They were magnificent things when we were boys. Yes. They always came together. It

was all a matter of perhaps a month or six weeks and ... MrX: Yes, but they’re straggly things what they use. I mean they were magnificent ??? those

were. INT: Overall would you say you approved of what they’ve done down there or not? MrX: I suppose in the long run it’ll be beneficial. I would have liked to have seen the water as it

was ... movement .... whereas now it’s a bit stagnant. INT: What about on the ... you know the new channels they’ve dug? MrX: Yes. Yes that’s better, yes. That’s good there, yes. It’s just the way it’s banked up to

steady it down a bit that they’ve made it a little bit stagnant with the condition of the water and the effluent that comes down from Swindon, it does pong a bit, doesn’t it?

MrsX: Yes. INT: OK. Well I think I’ve just about covered everything I wanted to ask, unless there’s anything

else you particularly wanted to say about what’s happened, or anything? Any other comments?

MrX: I can’t think of anything. Honestly, I think it probably will be better in the long run, with the

twists and turns it’s obviously more natural, and get the trees grown up, obviously plant some more trees where they’ve done the bends, to plant some more trees. Get the old willow trees, don’t want these sycamore straight up things. We want to get some natural trees in, the old willow trees and ??? habitat. I mean that’s what ??? otters in the trees and such like, but I mean there’s nowhere for them now. They used to keep saying they’d put these stick piles and ... but that’s not natural to an otter. Basically, it’s got to be natural, because they’re a very shy animal, and I’ve have a great privilege to watch an otter ...

INT: Really? MrX: When I was young, yes. We used to see otters up at where the ??? used to be, about 3 miles

further up, always otters there. INT: How long ago was that? MrX: Oh goodness me. INT: A long time? Yes. MrX: Yes. Back in the 60’s.

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INT: Was it? And have none been seen since then? MrX: Well we’ve been hunting mink now for 20 years I suppose, and we’ve never come across any

sign ... I keep reading in the papers, otter seen here, and otter seen there, I’ve never seen any evidence at all. The only time I saw an otter, we took ??? up to Wales and we ???? which is just off the Wye and we did see an otter there, but that’s the only one I’ve seen in the last 30 years. But they used to be quite plentiful when I was .... you knew where their haunts were, where they used to have their young ones, and they all go on about insecticides which was probably a big deciding factor in the otter population. I first noticed the decline in 63 when we had the bad weather.

INT: Right. Oh really? MrX: When otters couldn’t get to water, there was no water for months and months. And I’d

driven a tractor on the Thames, 17 inches of ice. That’s when I first noticed the decline in the otter population. Whether they starved or froze to death there ...

INT: Do they need very clean water to ...? MrX: They do really, yes. INT: That could be another reason ... MrX: Yes. Yes. Well even from ... I would say the River Thames from its source, which is about

5 or 6 miles shorter than it used to be, because it’s dried up at the top, you could see the bottom of the Thames, oh, down way beyond Letchlade, when it was beautiful gravel and if you’d get a nice sunny day you could see the fish, but you’d never see it in 2 inches now.

INT: And yet they reckon that it’s been cleaned up a lot. MrX: It has. It is better. Definitely better. But in 1963 ... gosh this is testing the brain ... the

sewerage works were built early, about 1963, when the sewerage works in Swindon all fell apart, and came down the River Rey and into the Thames above ????, I mean there were dead fish. It completely cleared the fish out, way below Letchlade, miles beyond Letchlade. I don’t think it’s ever recovered from it.

INT: No. MrX: And you could go fishing and you used to curse and swear at catching eels. You couldn’t

keep eels off you line. I haven’t seen an eel or heard of an eel for years. INT: Are there many fish back down there now here? MrX: We don’t get the quality of fish. I’ve never seen anybody catch one, but I don’t obviously ...

Yes, there are fish. Yes we do see them on nice quiet days, but it is a very filthy river. It’s the dirtiest river we get on. And we do everything on the Thames above Windsor, so it’s ... that and the River Rey, I would say, are the two most spoilt rivers.

INT: Well thanks very much for your time and your comments.

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MrX: It’s nice to talk to people that understand. [End of interview]

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 6 – 3rd FEBRUARY 1998 INT: How long have you lived here then? MrsX: In the actual village, about xxxxx years. INT: Right. Yes. Do you go down to the river much? MrsX: Oh yes. I mean, I have a dog, so of course, I’m down there sort of every weekend, not as

much during the week and in the winter because obviously I’m working. Yes. INT: Well, I’ve just got a list of things that we’d like to ask people about really, but obviously if

you’ve got anything else you want to add, anything .. please do. What I’ve been doing is just starting by asking people whether they think the restoration project has been successful at all, and if so why, and if not why?

MrsX: Well, as I said, I didn’t really know that much about it. I wasn’t too familiar with the river

before they actually did it. It was only one stretch of the river that I used to walk. But obviously the objective of them doing it, whether it has been successful for what they were achieving or not, I don’t know because not knowing it from years ago I don’t know whether ... because they were trying to take it back to it’s original course. Certainly it’s been quite spectacular with the floods that we’ve had lately, you know, the heavy rains, and the older part and the new part really, I mean it was quite a spectacular show of water. And some of the new parts, where they have recoursed it, where they’ve built .. it’s almost like a babbling brook and of course that wasn’t there before, which is very nice, where they’ve actually put a ... it’s like a little ford and of course they’ve graded the stones down this ford and you can sit there even when the water’s not terribly high, but it’s like the old running stream that you used to hear. They didn’t have that before. Further back they have a little ford and then on to a bridge and where they’ve stepped the water down and it’s, again, sitting on the top of the bridge there, standing on the bridge, when you sort of look up to the calm part and then when it drops down it’s like standing on the back of a boat, you know, and watching the wash going down. Of course we didn’t have that before. So that’s quite nice. I can only speak of what I see, personally, just as a general walker. But that, as I say, the actual objective of it, I don’t know whether it has achieved, or is going to achieve what they intend, but certainly there’s a lot of improvements there from when I used to walk and it was just literally still. Some places had stagnant water and you know not much else.

INT: Do you think it’s better for someone like yourself? MrsX: Yes I think it’s got a better ... what’s the word I’m looking for ... it has more variety.

There’s more to ... well, I think it’s attracted more wildlife down there as well, so obviously it’s got benefits on that side of things.

INT: Do you think it’s improved wildlife habitat? MrsX: I think so, yes. Yes. There’s quieter parts where you see swans and ducks, the usual river

wildlife. I think there are more there than there were before, yes.

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INT: Right. OK. And you think it actually looks better? MrsX: I do, certainly the parts that I walk. I haven’t walked too much to the right hand side of the

bridge going down the village, because that’s been very very wet. Of course, the banks there are very new and quite steep, so of course they’re very muddy, at the moment, until they get a bit more established, so I haven’t walked that part very much. But the other side, yes, it’s certainly got a ... there’s much more there, it’s nice, yes.

INT: Out of those things that you said you see as being sort of successful, what would you see as

being the most important thing? MrsX: Well I only look at it from a walker and a country lover point of view, which I think quite a

lot of people around the area do. Certainly the visitors that we get ... I think the attraction of the wildlife and seeing the older plants and that coming back and where they’ve tried to replant around the banks, obviously it’s not well enough established as yet to get a proper idea but you can see what it will be, you know, it’s taking shape.

INT: So you think maybe, in a few years time, it’ll be ... MrsX: I do, I think it will. Yes. INT: Do you think there’s anything that hasn’t been successful about what they’ve done down

there? MrsX: It depends on how you gauge success really, how you look at that. Certain parts of it, I think

... it’s obviously, it’s meant to be, but some of the banks I think are rather steep. But again as it matures and the plants and that mature around it, it may well not be quite as bad, but at the moment it just looks like a shear drop. I mean it’s not a very deep drop but I mean it is quite a high bank. No, I personally like what we’ve got there, you know, you see I don’t know too much about the farming aspect of it, because I know it’s .... well the aim of it was to flood the fields for whatever reason, but I don’t know too much about that at all I’m afraid.

INT: What would you say then was the most important benefit to you from what they’ve done? If

any. MrsX: Well, there are. I think we benefit, it’s just having a beautiful place to walk really. In

summertime it’s picturesque, it’s lovely, and I like it, you can walk down there, it’s peaceful, you can watch the river, watch the wildlife. I mean, that’s the benefit I get from it.

INT: What about other people in the village? Do you see maybe other benefits that other people

might get? MrsX: Well, I certainly have noticed an awful lot more fishermen down there. I don’t know

whether it’s anything to do with the recourse. They’re not on the new part, down at the old part by the bridge where it comes round to the new part, where it meanders round, whether because there’s an ... there’s certainly an increased flow in the water anyway, and again there’s a lot of fishermen locally, and I think they may well have benefited from it in that respect. As far as the farmers and that go, because I know it was mainly to help them, I just don’t know. The villagers, I know a lot of them, I think ... as you’ll probably find as you go

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round, some have mixed feelings, some don’t think they’ve done the right thing and others really praise it, so again it’s an individual thing. But certainly with the increased flow the fishermen must benefit from it.

INT: I am actually going to try and interview some fishermen. Yes it would be useful to do that. MrsX: I mean I don’t know what the sort of fish life is in the river, I mean not being a fishermen ...

but I certainly imagine where they’ve made the river meander, apparently speaking to some of the local National Trust workers who’ve said they’ve actually dug deeper on the bends specifically for the fish. You know, I mean, it doesn’t mean a lot to me, but obviously there’s a reason for doing it, so I mean, I’m sure they must, if not at the moment, later on will find benefits from it.

INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going ... were you here before they started

doing the project? MrsX: Just, yes. INT: Did you have any particular idea of what it was going to be like, any particular expectations

beforehand? MrsX: No I didn’t even know what they were actually doing to start with, I mean, again probably

my own fault for not asking the questions beforehand. The first thing I knew about it was when the diggers and that were in the fields and then all of a sudden you say well what’s going on. And at first I couldn’t think ... well, why do they want to do that? I mean the river was nice enough, you know, in places as it was, but why put it back to what it was, why did it change course in the first ... you know, over the years and things like that. So I didn’t really know enough about it when it started. I really didn’t, so I couldn’t say ...

INT: I was going to say how does it compare now with what you thought it would be like? MrsX: I couldn’t make a comparison. I had no picture of it at all. INT: Right. You said the first you saw was when the diggers were there, did you not hear about

any of the .. I believe there were some meetings in the village ... MrsX: Possibly, but I certainly didn’t hear anything about it. Again one of the disadvantages when

you’re out all day, the only time you do sort of meet is when you go up the pub or something like that, and I didn’t hear too much about it as to what was actually going on.

INT: So you weren’t involved in the consultation... ? MrsX: No. No. Nothing like that. No. INT: Were you aware that any other people in the village were involved in ... had some sort of

input at all into what was done down there? MrsX: Well, after .. probably, the National Trust workers and that ... they all seemed to know what

was happening, what was going on and the other people in the village, well, the person who

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was my next door neighbour, not here, but I used to live further up the village ... you know, seemed to know what was going on, so obviously they must have had ... I don’t know about them actually having input into what was happening, but they certainly ... I would imagine they must have kept the locals ... they may not have wanted us to know what was going on ... again some people just turn a blind eye to them, and say oh well let them get on with it. So it was ... I think whether the input was there I don’t know, but they must have been up together with what was actually going on.

INT: Do you feel that there were perhaps any other ways you could have been more involved if

you’d wanted to be, or ....? MrsX: Well I couldn’t really answer that from anyone else’s point of view, I mean, probably if I’d

seen a big notice stuck in front of me or something had come through the door to say well this is happening, I may have gone, I just don’t know. But I certainly didn’t ... through my own doing, not through anyone else’s, didn’t have any input into it.

INT: No. How much do you think local people should be involved, should be asked? MrsX: I think they should be asked ... whether again, as you find I suppose as you’re going round,

some of the older members don’t like change, don’t want change, don’t feel the need for change, and I think some of the youngsters perhaps don’t understand why ... again, that a lot of it is for their benefit. They might not think it but, later on, when you walk down there, if they hadn’t done anything and you find all you’ve got is mud and nothing else and no river, they would never have known what it was like, so I think if they do keep them informed but not to sort of bog them down with too many sort of ... saying, that’s the plan, this is what we’re doing. You know, if somebody sort of says well, where am I going to walk the dog, can I still go through that bit of ground where they’ve been going for the last century or whatever in their family. I do think we need to know what’s going on and should be asked, but at what level it’s done I think depends on, dare I say it, the mental capacity of the people that are being asked, because everyone has their own ideas of what and their own depth of understanding as to what’s going to happen, or what’s going to be done and why it’s going to be done. But I do think we should be consulted definitely because I mean it is ... if they’re interested then it’s going to concern them, it’s going to perhaps indirectly affect them in some way, even if they don’t get involved in it.

INT: Do you feel you could comment and say whether ... how successful you thought the

consultation process had been, or do you not know? MrsX: I couldn’t ... I don’t think I would be ... no. I couldn’t personally sort of say or make any

comment on it, criticism or praise. INT: You couldn’t say whether perhaps it could have been improved in any way? MrsX: No I think probably it was my own fault that I didn’t find out. I mean it was obviously there

and things were happening, but I couldn’t say whether it was a good consultation or whether it was bad. It would be unfair of me to make any judgement on it.

INT: Right. OK. That’s fine. Do you feel that the river plays much of a part in your life at all?

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MrsX: In mine, it does, yes. Only for the ... well the nature enjoyment, the country aspect of it ... well even in towns, I mean rivers can be very pretty in towns. But here, yes it does, and I get a lot from it, even if it’s only to go, like the new bridge that they’ve built further in on the river, even if it’s just to go down and stand there for 10 minutes when I’m out with the dog. I get a lot of pleasure from that, simple pleasures for me I’m afraid. But I do enjoy that and I love to walk the dog down there, and as I said, when we had the heavy rains and that, it really was quite spectacular to see, you know, well again, I suppose in some ways what water can do, how it can change the aspect, you know, you look in a field one day and it was all right, and you look down there on the Sunday morning and you think where’s the fence. You know, it really was, but I do personally get a lot of enjoyment from the river and I like to watch the wildlife and see, you know, that little nest wasn’t there last week or things like that. That’s why I think once it’s well established, you know, I think it’s still got a long way to go, I mean the basics and spadework’s all been done, and it’s just got to let nature take its course now, to see what comes out. You just don’t know. But no, I do, I enjoy it.

INT: Do you think the river plays much of a part in the life of the local community generally ... the

villagers ..? MrsX: I think it does. Yes. Well, a village like Coleshill, I can’t see that ... you certainly can’t

ignore it, it’s there, it’s part of it. If you don’t enjoy it then it’s your own fault. INT: Do you see it as being important to the local landscape? MrsX: I do, yes. I think so, yes, I mean, well I can’t imagine the area without the river. INT: No. Do you think that when they were designing the project that they took into account

local use of the river? MrsX: I think they must have done because just down by the river they have the football pitch and

things like that, so they must obviously have had plans for the recreational side that they need, they must obviously have access .... and obviously the pitch and that, they don’t want that waterlogged or anything. I don’t know whether it does actually flood that far out, I’m not sure.

INT: It used to flood. MrsX: Did it? INT: Yes. MrsX: I’m not sure whether it still does, but they must obviously have taken that into consideration

when they were planning it, but sort of what depth again they went into I don’t know. But they must obviously have taken things like that into consideration otherwise they would either ... we wouldn’t have a football pitch, it would be half way up to Highworth or something.

INT: Do you know how much they took into account the local use by the farmers? MrsX: No. I don’t. As I say, on the farming side of things, I don’t know. I mean I’ve heard

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various comments and that when I was living up in the local pub, but you know, as to how they were consulted or anything like that, I don’t know what considerations they actually made. I mean they must obviously have been consulted because it probably affects them more than it affects anyone else, I would think. But I don’t know.

INT: Do you think it’s important that local use of an area where a project like this is being

undertaken ... that should be considered by the people doing the project? MrsX: Well I think if they didn’t take those factors into consideration then I think it would just get

people’s backs up and they wouldn’t get co-operation anywhere unless they were consulted, even if it’s only to a very small degree. But they would have to, otherwise I think people would just rebel, not that they’d be able to do anything about it, because if the decision has been made to do it then unless there was enough of them with very strong objections I think it would go through anyway.

INT: Well that’s sort of interesting. Do you think that people did have any real choice about what

was done? MrsX: I don’t know on that. I don’t know. I mean your best people on asking that are the farmers

I would think. Did they want it done? I don’t know on that. As I say from the reactions and that that we hear up the road, I mean, they were mixed. Some like what they’d done, oh yes, it would be good, and it would flood this field and we want that water meadow, this that and the other. And other people have said why the devil didn’t they just leave it alone because it was all right as it was. So I don’t know what ... I couldn’t really make any comment on that.

INT: Do you look upon the river as belonging to the community, the village, in a way, as being

sort of local property? MrsX: No I don’t, not really. No. It’s the countryside. As I say, I can’t imagine the village

without it and the landscape without it, but, well I don’t look on it as, you know, it belongs to the village, no, I don’t think of it in that way.

INT: Do you feel involved in any sense with the river at all? MrsX: What do you mean by involved? INT: I suppose really, do you feel involved in the sense that ... you’ve just said you think it does

play quite a big part in your life in as much as you go down there a lot, I’m just wondering whether there’s any other sort of way that you might be involved in it, I suppose it was like people who go fishing would be involved in a sense like that. And other people might be in another sense, I don’t know.

MrsX: No, I mean, I don’t feel any bond with it, no not in that context of it. My involvement is

walking alongside it, you know, I don’t ... no I don’t see it in that way. INT: Do you know much historically about what the river was like? MrsX: No. Not back in centuries or ... I haven’t even actually looked at any old maps to see where

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the original course was. INT: Do you know much about the river apart from the stretch that they sort of worked on here?

Have you been to other parts of the River Cole apart from this stretch? MrsX: No. No. Short of walking from, you know, as far as I can that way ... and I don’t know

much about it between here and sort of going towards Letchlade, I don’t know much about that side at all. No.

INT: Do you know for example where the river actually begins and where it ends, or anything like

that? MrsX: No, I haven’t got a clue. INT: One of the things that the river restoration project people aimed to do, as they said, was to

restore the river to a more natural condition, by doing the project there. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river how would you describe it to me?

MrsX: A natural river ... Nice banks, well, when I say nice banks I don’t mean sort of lovely mown

grass ... natural in that you’ve got the wildlife habitats along the banks, trees, plant life, not too deep ... or areas, sort of not too deep ... I like to see, as they have done here, like the fords made where you have actually got like the tumbling water now, things like that. I like to hear ... well you can always hear the water, even when it’s still we can always hear the water ... and, again, well that’s a natural river to me. Yes, it’s nice to see it meandering rather than just seeing a big wide open straight river, that is nice. And variety, you know, where you have got denser shrubs and plant life and certain areas where ... not quite so much, and again, shade, tress, things like that.

INT: Do you think the river restoration project people have a similar idea of what a natural river

would be like? MrsX: I think they have, yes. It certainly looks ... well, from anything that I know, it certainly

looks like it, yes. I mean the ideas are all there. INT: How natural did you think the River Cole looked, if you can remember, before they did the

project down there? MrsX: Well the part that I used to walk ... it did look ... there was nothing wrong with how it looked

... but it was ... well it was very dense in places, it wasn’t flowing in some places, and very overgrown in some parts, and obviously the water just wasn’t getting through. Again, we still had the wildlife and the plant life, they were still there in places, but in other places ... just mud and slurry because there was just nothing there really.

INT: Do you think it looks more natural now than it did before, or not? MrsX: Not just at the moment, but I think once it’s established it will. I know I keep going back on

to this. At the moment, to me, it does look ... it’s just newly made in most places, but once, as I say, give it another two to three years, and it starts to get established it will build itself up.

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INT: Compared to other rivers that you may know in the area, I don’t know if you do go to any

other rivers in the area ... ? MrsX: Yes, there’s quite a few. We have. INT: How natural do you think this looks now compared to the other rivers? MrsX: Well most of the places that I do walk around are all what I call well established old rivers

and canals. So I think given time, yes it will be on a par with sort of anything else. INT: Do you think it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring a river to its natural state, natural

condition, at all? MrsX: It falls down to cost doesn’t it, when you say feasible. I think, in many ways, it depends on

the community that it’s around. I think it would be totally ... I don’t know if you want to go back on what you’ve been doing ... in a very sort of built up area I would think it would probably, dare I say, fall upon stony ground in that I don’t think it would be quite .... I’ve lost my train of thought now ... quite as useful. It would be sort of ... oh well yes, it’s a bit of water, what’s the point in restoring it, why ... you know, or again, other people look on it and say well it would be nice to have a little bit of greenery, a bit of countryside around. So it’s hard to sort of say, I think again it depends on the community that you’ve got around the river, whether it will be worthwhile restoring ... I suppose anything’s worth doing if it’s going to benefit or have some benefits, but ... again, I think it depends, a lot of it is to do with the community. And again, finance.

INT: A lot of people have said that we control or we’ve sort of tamed most of the rivers in the

country now. Do you think that’s the case? MrsX: It depends on how you term ‘tamed’. INT: Perhaps that we manage them ...? Control them? MrsX: Well I think there has to be a certain amount of control, otherwise they would all just end up

as a piece of wasteland I think, if you didn’t have some form of .. well, management. Management in the sense of actually looking after the rivers, monitoring them and that. Yes, but ... the other side of ... I’m thinking what ???? ... I think it is necessary for some form of management and control. To what extent though, I couldn’t say.

INT: Do you look upon the River Cole here as a managed or controlled river? MrsX: I think in parts, certain parts around about here, are, and the National Trust I think do their bit

to keep the walkways, if you like, and I think we’ve opened up more .. the farmers around certainly have opened up a bit more than there were when I first came here. I mean you could get through them, but they were either overgrown and that, but now they seem to keep a pathway through. I think it’s quite well managed around, certainly the parts that I walk, because they’ve kept the fences up on the new part and they ... round here they’ve built new stiles to walk through and walk over and around the river, so I think, obviously, management in that sense round here, it’s quite good. Probably it’s because it’s the National Trust

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manage everything. It might well help. I can’t speak for other parts. INT: Do you think that by controlling the river it sort of makes it more or less natural? MrsX: Well if you’ve got somebody walking around and pulling all the car tyres and all the trolleys

out of the river and things like that ... yes, it does make it look more natural. But there again, that’s what you find in the towns and that. A lot of people look at that and say well that’s art, yes, that trolley, you know. Yes, I don’t know if you mean managing them as far as the fishing and things like that, or the life that’s around it ...

INT: Or even changing the channels, like this one here for example is straightened and others ... MrsX: Yes, the meandering and ... yes. I think you’ve got to have it. I don’t think the rivers would

survive, but ... well I don’t know, I don’t think the rivers would actually survive as we know them if they weren’t ... you know, if we didn’t have the likes of the Water Authorities and things like that, because you’d have all these concrete magnates that are coming in and they’d just, they’d fill them in, or they’d think well it’s not a necessity, you don’t need it, I want to build a block of flats there. So they don’t think that .. well are the people that are going to live in the flats going to ...

INT: Do you think a river can still look natural even if it is controlled to a certain extent? MrsX: Yes. Yes. INT: Would you think that the restoration project is scientific or has it been scientific in any way? MrsX: Oh. I don’t know if they’ve done any tests, if you mean in that sense, to monitor why

something died the old way in the old river, and why it’s actually surviving by the new river. I don’t know whether they’ve ... I’m sure they must have taken things like that into consideration. Is that what you mean by scientific?

INT: Well yes really, or perhaps try and see what you might think would be considered to be

scientific or not. MrsX: Testing the water and keeping it clear. I don’t know. INT: Have you got any idea what sort of knowledge would be needed to carry out a project like

that? MrsX: No, I don’t. Well obviously they’d have to have an in-depth ... well, again, anything like

that would depend on what’s ... how scientific or what they were actually going to be doing. Normally they sort of take one project aside and say well yes, we want to grow this thing here and test the soils and things like that, and what benefits we would get, again, with it being there. Other than that, I just don’t know. I don’t know what they would want to gather together.

INT: You don’t know what sort of knowledge might be needed for ... I mean, to what extent do

you think the river restoration project people know how to restore rivers?

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MrsX: Well, if they don’t know how to restore them, they shouldn’t be doing the job they’re in. I can’t comment on that because I don’t know what .. I mean obviously everyone has an education for the job that they’re actually doing, so I mean, surely they must know what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. Other than that I don’t know.

INT: Would you say that you trusted them to take care of the rivers, to do what they thought was

best for the river? MrsX: Well, I would trust them. I would hope they would know what they were doing. They must

obviously have done it before somewhere else. I would imagine before they sort of tackle ... well each one’s an individual I suppose ... depending on where they are actually working but I would certainly like to think that they have the knowledge to get it right, or put it right, whatever the case might be.

INT: Have you got any idea of maybe what else might still need to be learnt about restoring rivers? MrsX: No. No. I can’t think on that. INT: Do you think that the way the river looks now, that it looks ... you say that you think it might

look more natural in a few years time. One of the comments I’ve had was that somebody said they felt it looked very contrived down there now.

MrsX: Well it does look contrived because we haven’t known it as anything else, other than the

straight river that was there. Had I sort of known it as the old river, as it is now the new river, then it probably wouldn’t look quite so contrived, but obviously the water’s a natural thing and it’s got a natural course, and at some point in time along the way, either we have recoursed it to create ... which obviously didn’t work if we did ... for them to go ahead and do it. So I don’t think it looks contrived, it just looks new. In places, in lots of places, it looks as if that’s how it’s been forever, so it’s just because it’s new, I think, because there’s so many new parts to it and where the new banks have been made and where the new stones put down, but I think it’s because it looks so new. Once it gets weathered and everything gets beaten about a little bit, and the fence gets knocked down a little bit, and things like that, then it will probably again ... to me, it will look even more natural then.

INT: You think it might look more authentic later on. MrsX: Yes, I think it’s because it’s new. INT: OK. Do you see rivers as generally sort of changing naturally, or staying the same all the

time? MrsX: I always imagine rivers to stay the same ... there again, I’ve never known anything else. You

know, I’ve always sort of thought well the river’s there ... but obviously over the years, then, for various reasons, the ??? have to be changed or recoursed as they’ve put this one back .... but I always do imagine, or have imagined, the rivers to be the same.

INT: So really, if they’ve been changed it’s been people that .... MrsX: Manmade, yes. Over the years ...

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INT: I think that’s just about it actually. Would you say that overall you were in favour of what’s

been done down there? MrsX: I am, yes. Yes, I know there’s probably mixed feelings about but I’m happy with what

they’ve done down there. I like it. Yes. INT: Well thanks very much. MrsX: Is that it? INT: Yes, unless there’s anything else you’d like to say? MrsX: No. INT: That’s been very helpful. [End of interview]

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 7 – 3rd FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Have you been down there to see the river recently? MrsX: Yes. Well we ... just before you came it must have been ... it froze over, around Christmas

time. INT: Did it? MrsX: Yeah, and it was absolutely wonderful. So we spent quite a lot of time over the Christmas ...

the children played ice hockey down there and all sorts of things. It was really good. Yeah, I’ve had a couple of walks over the park-way but not the other way at all I don’t think.

INT: Well what I wanted to do was to start by asking you whether you felt the project had been

successful at all, in any sense, and if so, how ... it’s a matter of what criteria really, you know, you use to assess that, but ...

MrsX: Yeah. I mean, I think in terms of it being more pleasant it’s been successful. I don’t know

about anything else in terms of attracting wildlife. It seems to appeal to the children more. INT: Right. It does? You think it does? MrsX: Yes, I think so. I mean, I say we haven’t been the other way, we have actually, Jack did some

fishing down there. Yes, I think so. It seems more accessible. INT: Right. Do you think it actually looks better than it used to? MrsX: Over towards the park, I think it possibly does, but to the right hand side [downstream of

bridge], it hasn’t really blended in yet. It hasn’t bedded down not yet. It’s still quite a muddy sort of walk, you know.

INT: Would you have any idea how successful it might have been from the people that actually did

the project, from their point of view? MrsX: No, I don’t know what their success criteria were at all. I don’t know what they were aiming

to do. Well, re-establish the original path of the river ... but I expect that’s been successful. I don’t know what else they were hoping to achieve actually, I don’t know. Flood the fields ... well it’s flooded them over the park hasn’t it.

At this point a man joins the conversation and it is sometimes difficult to make out what is being said. INT: Mmm, it does. MrX: Well it goes away quicker now, that’s the word on the street. MrsX: What goes away quicker?

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MrX: The water. MrsX: Oh right. I didn’t notice that, did you? MrX: ???? it was very wet ??? INT: What do you think would be the most important thing though, do you think, about the things

you’ve mentioned? MrsX: Well it’s just a more interesting place to walk. INT: Right. Do you see any particular benefits then for you personally from what’s been done

down there? MrsX: Yes, I mean, I like walking down there. And as I said when it freezes it’s quite, you know,

it’s quite a thin layer of water. Yes, generally, it’s interesting, and I think it’s quite good for the children of the village.

INT: Do you think other people may get different benefits than you do from what’s been done

down there? MrsX: I don’t know. It’s mostly recreational. I don’t know if there are any ... no, I wouldn’t

know, I don’t know if there are any keen bird watchers or ... I don’t know. INT: Can you remember when you first heard they were going to do the project there, did you have

a particular sort of idea or particular expectations about what it was going to be like? MrsX: No. INT: You didn’t? MrsX: No, none whatsoever. INT: I was going to say how does it compare now with how you expected it to be. MrsX: The first I knew about it anyway was when I saw the sign up. INT: Right. MrsX: There wasn’t ... and in fact there was an article in the national papers ... I think it was The

Times, or something ... and that was my sort of information, you know, there wasn’t really any local giving out of information or explanations at all. So I wasn’t really aware of what they were planning to do.

INT: I was going to ask about that actually, and say were you involved in ... MrsX: No. INT: ... going to the meetings, or anything?

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MrsX: Well I didn’t know about the meetings. I mean, I don’t think I’d have gone anyway because

I don’t think it would have particularly interested me and I’ve got too much else on. But I wasn’t aware of them either. Having said that, I could have been told and I could have just put it to once side because I wasn’t interested.

INT: Yes. I mean, do you know whether other people in the village were able to sort of have any

input into what was done down there, say the design or anything, of the project? MrsX: I don’t think so. No. I know that quite a few children, you know, students, have used it as

A Level studies and that sort of thing, but I don’t think they had any input as such. INT: No. I mean do you think local people should be consulted about things like this? MrsX: Yes. I think so. INT: How much do you think that they should be involved? Do you think that they can really

have much of an input into say the planning of something like this? MrsX: It would depend on how informed they are wouldn’t it? And that depends on how much

time people are prepared to spend informing local people. You know, when I saw the plans in The Times, I actually sort of got quite interested because I could see what they were actually doing. But I hadn’t really been interested up until that point, because I hadn’t been informed about it at all. So I didn’t know what it was about. But yes, if someone is prepared to put the time in, but unless people are informed, no they can’t have much of an input at all.

INT: Would you say ... how satisfied were you with the consultation that went on, or have you not

got any particular feelings ...? MrsX: I haven’t got any views because, I mean, like I said, it’s not ... if it was the building of a road,

you know, then yes, I would be really ... but no, I mean, I don’t think I would. INT: So you wouldn’t like to say whether you thought it could have been done better, or been

improved? MrsX: No. No. It’s an issue that I presume ... because it’s a sort of nature type thing, then you’ve

got National Trust involved and all the rest of it, I presume it’s going to be done in a sort of sympathetic positive way. I mean, like I said, had it been the building of houses, the building of roads, the building of ... then I’d have been more proactive I think.

INT: Would you say the river plays any part in your life at all? MrsX: Yes, I’m glad it’s there, I like it being there. I mean, it’s not like I’m a keen angler or

anything, but I’d miss it if it wasn’t there. And Jack certainly goes fishing there. INT: Do you think it plays an important role in the life of the local community generally? MrsX: Yes. Yes. I mean, yes, a friend of ours lives at XXXX and you know, we got there and

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there were kingfishers and things, yes. INT: Do you think it’s important for the local landscape around here? MrsX: Yes. INT: Do you think when they were planning what was going to be done here that they took into

account how local people use the river? MrsX: Yes. I mean, I’ve got no idea, but I guess they would. I mean I expect they would. But

I’ve got no idea whether they did or not. INT: Do you think that they should do that? That they should take into account the way that local

people use areas like that? MrsX: Yes, definitely. Yes. INT: Would you say that you see the river as being .. as sort of belonging to the local community

if you like? Being their river? Their sort of property? MrsX: Yes. Well, yes and no. I mean having said that, there’s the signs up there that say ‘Private

Fishing’, ‘ Highworth Angling Society’, and that’s a bit difficult because you know, if you don’t belong to the Highworth Angling Society then you could be in trouble. But yes, generally speaking, I mean Highworth I suppose is local, so yes I think so.

INT: Would you say that you feel particularly involved in the river in any way or what’s been done

there? MrsX: No. No. INT: Do you think other people in the village might do? MrsX: Probably the National Trust workers might. I presume you’ve probably interviewed some.

Did you hear about that opening ceremony which was ... I don’t know when that was ... but they only invited particular people I seem to remember. Did you ...?

MrX: No, they did invite most people. MrsX: Did they? MrX: Yes, you could go if you wanted to. MrsX: Oh right. I don’t know if many ... did many villagers go? I don’t think they did. MrX: No not really. MrsX: I think it was mostly ... ??? INT: There was the opening where they actually literally opened the river ... where anyone could

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go ... and then I think they had like an official opening thing more recently, just before Christmas, October or November.

MrsX: Right. INT: ... where only certain people were invited. MrsX: Right. Yes. Well I didn’t go, but yes, I think some people ... INT: I think, in fact, only one or two ... I think they were the only ones. MrsX: That sounds about right. INT: One of the things they were trying to do down there was to make the river ... or restore the

river to a more natural condition. I mean, if I were to ask you to describe to me how you would see a natural river as being ...?

MrsX: In this area? INT: Yes, in this area. But not necessarily this one. But if I was to say how would you describe

a natural river ... MrsX: Well I mean in a sort of fairly low level area, which this is, and you know, fairly ... a long

way away from the sea ... I would expect it to be quite meandering ... not terribly wide, medium sort of width ... quite a few trees, you know, habitats, rushes, fish ... probably about it. I mean, I wouldn’t expect any ... I’d expect quite steep banks I think.

INT: Do you think that the people who did the project had a different view of what a natural river

should look like? MrsX: Well, it seems to me that each side is quite different. One side is quite ... well, you’ve got

these pretty steep curves, I think, I’m not sure, but I think they’re sort of like ox bow lakes and things, I think where the sort of curves are cut off ... I can’t remember now, it seems quite fast flowing. The other side is very broad and slow moving and liable to flooding. Well, I presume they must have. They must know their stuff.

INT: Do you think they do? I mean to what extent do you think that they do know how to restore

rivers? Have you got any idea? MrX: It’s a specialist job, isn’t it? Don’t come across it very often. MrsX: Well, I mean, we’ve noticed when we’ve walked down the right hand side, there’s quite a bit

of undercutting of banks, didn’t we? And I mean ... MrX: That’s designed as far as I understand. That’s designed to happen. MrsX: Yes, I’m sure ... MrX: To represent the natural ... ???

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MrsX: Yes. INT: Would you have any idea of what sort of knowledge would be needed to do a project like

that? MrsX: O level geography? MrX: I hate Geography. I haven’t got a clue. We didn’t get taught that at school. MrsX: No. In a word. INT: Would you say that you feel that they probably know what they’re doing? MrsX: Yes. I can’t imagine they would do it if they didn’t. INT: Would you trust them to, if you like, take care of the river? MrsX: Well, I know the EEC were involved and I mean, I don’t know, it seems a bit ... they seem a

bit of a big organisation really to ... do you know what I mean? Rather than something local ...

MrX: Yes. There’s nowhere local that could turn out a thing like that. It’s too big a job. MrsX: No. Yes, I presume they ... MrX: JCBs that start scooping bits out .... MrsX: No. I think they probably ... they’re probably fine to do it. INT: I mean, do you think the project has been scientific as a project? MrsX: I don’t think so, no. INT: No? MrsX: I think it’s more a landscape enterprise. INT: Do you have any idea ... do you think there is much more that needs to be learnt about

restoring rivers, rehabilitating rivers? MrsX: I don’t know how much has been done really. I don’t know whether it’s a ground breaking

project or not, you know. I honestly don’t know. I don’t know how revolutionary the idea is.

INT: Do you think it’s feasible to talk about restoring a river like that to its natural state? MrsX: Yes, because it was originally taken out of its natural state and put into the state that ... it’s

like putting the book straight isn’t it? So yes, I think so.

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INT: Do you think that’s the case in perhaps all rivers, or just ...? MrsX: No. I mean I don’t know about other rivers. I don’t know if other rivers have been

interfered with in the same way or changed. INT: I mean it’s been said that we’ve more or less tamed all of our rivers ... MrsX: Oh has it? Right. INT: Or to a certain extent, I mean, would you think that that was true or ... ? MrsX: I don’t know. INT: Or that we sort of control them and manage them in a way? MrsX: Yes, yes. That’s true, yes. INT: Do you think it matters that we do that? MrsX: Well sometimes it’s done so that people can actually enjoy them ... you know, increase

accessibility ... which is OK. That’s acceptable I think. Sometimes it’s done for energy, you know, which is OK. I don’t know. It depends why it’s done, I mean, again, if it was done to make way for a road or something, then I’d be anti- it, but if it was done because it was there to improve the lives of people and they were going to be able to get down to the river and .. you know, whatever ... I think I’d be much more inclined to agree that it was a good idea.

INT: Do you know much historically about the River Cole? MrsX: No. INT: What it used to be like? MrsX: No I don’t. We’ve only been here XXXXX years. No. I don’t know much about it at all. INT: I mean do you know, for example, where it comes from and where it goes to once it’s left

Coleshill or anything? MrsX: No. Is it a tributary of the Thames, I don’t know? INT: Yes, it does flow into the Thames, yes. MrsX: I presumed it did. But I don’t know, I’ve never you know, never really followed it or

anything. INT: No. Do you think that rivers change naturally anyway or do they stay permanently ...? MrsX: No I think they evolve, you know, a living force.

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Conversation with children INT: How natural do you think the river looked before they did the project down there? MrsX: I think it was OK, reasonably, it didn’t look unnatural. But you see, I don’t know the river

particularly well. INT: Right. MrsX: And I’m not a river expert. INT: No. MrsX: So it’s difficult, you know. INT: Do you think it looks more natural now, for example, than it did before or not? MrsX: Yes. Yes. It was very straight before. It didn’t seem quite right before. INT: I don’t know if you do know many rivers around here, but would you say that that was more

natural compared to some of the other rivers? MrsX: Yes. I mean I know the Thames at Letchlade round there. That certainly looks more

natural. INT: The Thames does? MrsX: Yes. INT: Somebody was saying to me that the river now looks sort of contrived, if you like. MrsX: Oh right. INT: I don’t know, what do you think about that? MrsX: No. I don’t think so. I think possibly that’s because perhaps people got used to how it was

before. But it felt a bit contrived before. INT: Yes. Because it had been straightened? MrsX: Yes. It was so straight. INT: Yes. Yes. MrsX: But I think once it grows ... surrounding areas growing... INT: That’s been the biggest criticism, that it still looks ...

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MrsX: Stark. INT: ... nearly two years later, so bare. And not very attractive. MrsX: No. No. That’s right. INT: I mean, do you think there is anything attractive about it? MrsX: It’s quite frightening. You know, the water flows very fast and some of the sweeps are quite

good. But I wouldn’t go down the right hand side. INT: You wouldn’t. MrsX: No. I’d always go to the left hand side for a walk. I mean as far as we go, if we go to the

right it’s just to see what it’s like, not because we want a pleasant walk. INT: No. MrsX: Because I mean on the one side ... it’s very difficult as well to know which way the footpath

was, you know, there’s not an obvious track through, and you’ve got the arable silt, you know, I don’t know. It’s very exposed and ... yes.

INT: Would you say that ... say, upstream from the bridge, on the left, if you’re going down from

here, it looks better to you than the downstream section? MrsX: Oh yes. INT: I think we’ve more or less covered everything I want to. I mean, do you think when we’re

talking about sort of controlling, managing rivers, do you think that rivers that are managed and controlled in any way can still look natural at all, or not?

MrsX: Well I mean, yes I probably ... as you said, most rivers are in some sense managed or

controlled, we’re just not aware of it in lots of ways. I mean there’s lots of locks and things on the River Thames and we accept those now and enjoy them being there and you’ve got to go specifically to the river to see the locks in operation. I take groups of school children down to see the locks.

INT: Overall, thinking about what they’ve done down there, do you think it’s actually better now

than it used to be down there? MrsX: I think it will be. Yes. Yes. It’s going to take quite a while for everything to sort of

naturalise. Yes, I think, on the whole, it probably is. But whether it represents value for money I don’t know.

INT: Right. That’s another whole issue. Yes. That’s true. I mean, do you sort of overall

approve of what they’ve done, do you think, or not. MrsX: I mean they’ve spent an awful lot of money and possibly I think the money could have been

better spent actually.

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INT: Right. Conversation with child. MrsX: Yes, XXXX goes down there freely. In fact, ??? got his canoe ... INT: Actually, what I was going to do at some point, over the next couple of months, was to try

and get some of the local children in the village to talk about ... MrsX: Oh yes. INT: We’ll do that at some point, get a crowd of people together. ... It would be nice to get the

children’s view OK. Anything else that you’d like to say about ... MrsX: No. I don’t think so. INT: OK. Well thanks very much for your time anyway. MrsX: That’s OK. (End of Interview)

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 8 – 4th FEBRUARY 1998 [Conversation has already started] MRX: Up quite a lot. INT: No. Is that because it’s winter ...? MRX: No, the fact that it’s winter, I’ve been going that way a little bit. INT: Right. MRX: But that way, it’s blocked off anyway, well there’s a notice saying ‘No entry’ so there’s not

much point. INT: No. No. OK. Yes, other people have said that. I haven’t been down and seen it actually. MRX: Well you can’t go beyond the little straight bit that you always did before, so I go there and

stop there, so I haven’t seen any of the meandering or the ... INT: You haven’t seen it? MRX: No. INT: Really? MRX: Well if it says ‘No entry’ I can’t go in. INT: You can’t go in, no, but you’ve been the other way. MRX: I’ve been the other way. INT: So you’ve seen the new meanders they’ve done down there, presumably? MRX: Yes. INT: Yes. Yes. MRX: I haven’t been down there much though. INT: You haven’t? You’ve got an idea of what they’ve done ... MRX: Oh yes, because I’ve been in the fields above them, so I could look down to see but I haven’t

been along there very much. INT: What I wanted to ask was ... I mean, just to say that I’m not working for the RRP, we’re

doing this as an independent study. MRX: For the college, yes.

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INT: We’ve got some funding from the Economic and Social Research Council, so we’re actually

interviewing, not only local residents, we’re actually also interviewing the RRP people as well, so we’re trying ...

MRX: With a view to finding out what? INT: With a view to comparing their perceptions of what’s been done with the local people’s

perceptions, if you see what I mean? MRX: Got it. INT: Yes. Can I start by asking whether you think the project has been a success at all? MRX: Definitely. INT: You think so. MRX: Yes. INT: How would you measure that success? What sort of criteria would you use? Why do you

think it’s been successful? MRX: Because when it started it was nothing very much more than a big ditch. Now you’ve

already got things moving. The fish are prolific, obviously. Herons, there are more than there were, possibly. The whole thing looks better anyway. It looks more like a proper job than a ditch. Some of the fishermen aren’t so sure about it.

INT: No, I’ve spoken to one or two. MRX: But they tend to be pessimistic anyway. I think it’ll be even better when the banks have

grown a bit. At the moment it still looks a bit bare and I think it probably always will do on that side of the river [upstream].

INT: Upstream... MRX: Upstream. INT: Yes. MRX: You know, because you’re not planning to plant along the river there are you? No. So

that’s always going to be a bit bare, always going to be a bit bleak. But I think further down the other side of the bridge will be nice. Much more diversity, because of the meanders and the different things. It’s nice if you’re out for a walk in the summer, it’s nice because, for one reason, you’ve got the fords that you can cross on to the other ... It’s a much nicer walk, a much better thing altogether. And as I said to you before, it’s far more sensible to spend money on that than on a road, you know, it’s a nice thing to do.

INT: Yes. Yes, that’s true. I mean is there anything about it that you can say you don’t think has

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worked, or has been a success, as it could have been? MRX: Well, I’ve got reservations that we can’t walk in the ... you know, I don’t like the idea of it

being blocked off so we can’t walk there anyway. I can see why. INT: Some people still do walk in there. MRX: Yes, I know. And if I was feeling bolshy so would I, but I haven’t because, you know, if

they’re trying to do that there’s obviously a reason, but I’m not convinced about it. I’d rather it was like, completely open, and then I could give you more answers to some of the other things.

INT: Yes, that’s true. MRX: I mean we saw all the things being built, the bridge, the sluice, at the very beginning. I

haven’t seen any of that since ... I haven’t been that way at all, so from my point of view that’s a bit of a waste for me.

INT: Well other people have said ... MRX: I know you can walk in the other way, there’s no signs there, but I don’t. Because I don’t

very often go that way. INT: No. MRX: More in the summer perhaps. INT: Yes, maybe. I mean, those things that you’ve mentioned, which one would you say, in your

opinion, is perhaps the most important sort of success of the project? If there is one? MRX: It’s hard for me to say because I don’t have the benefit of all the information, but perhaps

visually, possibly. INT: Yes. MRX: I was always for it, and no reason to change my mind. I think it was money well spent.

And it is flooding now, you saw the floods? INT: I haven’t seen that. No. I wasn’t down here, no. MRX: It flooded quite well. Whether it flooded any more than it would have done under normal

circumstances, I’ve got my doubts. I think the river restoration people will have better ideas, and I know that they were pleased with the floods, because apparently it’s put a lot of silt in the places where they wanted it to. I don’t know about that. They would know about that. So that side of it’s obviously been successful. But I did expect it to flood more regularly than it has. Possibly more often.

INT: Do you think that’s just because you haven’t had as much rain?

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MRX: Maybe. That’s one of the things I wouldn’t know. INT: No. MRX: I expected it to flood two or three days before it did, with the rain that we had. I don’t know.

I don’t know whether that side of it’s been a success, but you wouldn’t expect me to know anyway.

INT: No. MRX: But I expected there to be more water knocking about and I expected it to stay longer. INT: Right. MRX: But what do I know. ... Downstream, past the end of all the work, you see it’s flooded more

than ever, which wouldn’t have any effect I wouldn’t have thought that would have affected it. You know, that way ...

INT: I don’t know. I’ll find out about that. What I was going to say, do you think other people

in the village, or round about, see it being successful in any other way, other than the things that perhaps you’ve mentioned?

MRX: I don’t think many people look at it. INT: You don’t. MRX: Not many. INT: No. MRX: The sceptics are still sceptical. They still think it was a waste of money. Total. Still

stroppy about it. But some of them, you know ... bloody waste of money, I don’t know what they think, these people in offices, blah blah blah. And on it goes.

INT: I’ve heard all that. MRX: What do they know about it? INT: Mmm. What do you think’s the most important benefit then for you for example? MRX: For me? INT: Mmm. From the project, if any? MRX: It makes the village a nicer place. Environmental money spent, I think, is usually good

money spent anyway. INT: Yes.

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MRX: I’m all for it, but a lot of people aren’t. They’d rather see the money spent elsewhere. INT: Right. OK so you think it’s made the village a nicer place. MRX: I think so, and I think it will improve further down the line, I thought that anyway. Those

sort of things are bound to, I can’t see that they can do anything other than that. INT: Thinking back to when you knew that they were going to do the project, and you’d heard

about what they were going to do, did you have an image in your mind, or a particular expectation, and how does it compare now with what you thought it would be like?

MRX: They finished up doing far more than they initially thought, because they had more money

left. They did far more downstream than they said they were going to which has made it much much better. They only spoke about three or four meanders, and they did a lot more in the end. Everything that they said they were going to do, they’ve done. In spates, it’s much better, much more...

INT: Does it look like you imagined it would, or not? MRX: Yes. Better that way, and that is pretty well what I expected. INT: Right. OK. MRX: I think the bridges and sluice are better than I imagined. INT: Are they? MRX: Yes. They’ve made a nice job of those, don’t you think? INT: Yes. They do look nice. MRX: Especially the bridge, the work around the bridge. I think that’s all, I don’t know what I’m

doing with these here. INT: When was this then? MRX: About four weeks ago, five weeks ago, something like that. INT: OK. Would you say that the river plays a part in your life at all? MRX: Only in as much as I walk around there .... , fairly regularly. I do in fields nearer to here. I

rarely go that far except in better weather. INT: Right. Yes. MRX: I mean during spring and summer I walk along there more. I go a bit further. INT: Do you think the river plays much of a part in the life of the village generally?

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MRX: No. No. Hardly at all. Little or none. And then only the odd one or two will walk a dog round, but generally speaking I wouldn’t say so at all.

INT: No. OK. MRX: Nobody in the village fishes it. INT: They don’t? Because it’s private fishing isn’t it? MRX: They never did. It’s only XXXX Angling Club. You can join if you want to. The kids

fish. The kids have been down there playing in the summer. INT: Right. Yes. MRX: Yes, they fish there and they play about in the fords which is nice. Fairly safe. ??? INT: Yes, this is it. I mean, do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape? MRX: I do yes. I’m biased, I always was. I mean I walked the river before they did all the

changes. Now I walk more of it. INT: You do? You think ... MRX: Oh yes. There’s more of it to see. There’s more to see. The backwater’s are nice, that sort

of thing. INT: When they were designing and planning the scheme, do you think they took much account of

how the local people use the river? MRX: Well, yes, they were asking us these sort of questions then. INT: They were? MRX: Yes, there were meetings at which these sort of questions were asked. We had every

opportunity to voice an opinion. I can’t say we didn’t know about it. INT: No. You see some people said they didn’t and they never heard about it. MRX: Yes, that’s because they took no bloody notice and didn’t go to the meetings. People who

moan are largely people who didn’t go to meetings. INT: Well, yes. MRX: ... and decided it was a waste of money in the first place. INT: Right. Do you think it’s important that local people like yourself should be given that

opportunity to ... MRX: Yes, it’s nice. I’d be moaning if nobody had said. As it was, it was pretty good.

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INT: Do you actually think though that they took on board any of the things that local people

suggested? MRX: Yes. Well I’ve got no reason to think they didn’t. Well, with all the walks that were along

there ... there’ve been walks along for everybody to go on, and they were well attended. And they listened to what was said. I can’t see that there was anything they didn’t do that was said.

INT: Right. MRX: I’d be interested to hear whether it’s considered to be a success at being able to hold back

water from the Thames, which has always been, I think, part of the plan. ... I always felt that that was part of it.

INT: Yes, I know, I remember you saying. MRX: Because one of these days they’re going to have trouble downstream, aren’t they, on the

Thames. INT: Well they’ve had trouble before. MRX: Yes, they’re going to have big trouble. And I always felt, they felt that if they could do this

on this river, and it was a success and they could hold water back for a time, and if they did that in several other places comparatively cheaply, it would save them a bomb at the other end. But I don’t know.

INT: I really think that the reason this site was chosen was partly because it fulfilled their criteria,

they wanted a lowland river, and it was one landowner that they had to deal with and I think that was very much the reason why it was much easier for them, but anyway ... So you think local people, you think what they were saying ...

MRX: Everybody had a chance to give an opinion and I think they took some notice, yes. INT: OK. Can you think of anything in particular perhaps that people suggested that they ... MRX: No. No. No. They were putting views and apart from the people who were against it

anyway, everybody said yes, great, why not. INT: OK. Do you think of the river at all as sort of belonging to the local community? MRX: Definitely, yes. I think I’m probably in a minority though. I don’t know. INT: Do you think people see it as being ... or do you see it as being local property? MRX: Yes. INT: Yes.

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MRX: I tend to be a bit proprietorial as well, you know, when you see strangers drawing up in their big cars and wandering off, you think what the hell are they doing here, which is totally wrong, I understand, but you know, it is a feeling that you sometimes have.

INT: Well, it’s a small community, yes. MRX: I know it’s a wrong thought, but anyway there it is. INT: Would you say you feel involved in any sense with the river and what’s gone on down there? MRX: Well, yes, in as much as we attended all the meetings and were told all about it, so we were

made to feel part of it. INT: OK. So do you think there were any ways in which people like yourself could have even

become more involved if you’d wanted to perhaps? MRX: Yes. I missed one meeting which I wish I’d gone to. It was difficult at the time and I think

if you’d pushed your opinions, people would have listened. INT: Right. MRX: A lot of these questions are allied they’re almost the same question put in different words in

places, don’t you think? INT: The same question as what? MRX: As you’re going through the list, a lot of them are ... the questions are so similar, they’re

almost the same question. INT: You think so? MRX: Yes. INT: I think what we want to make sure is that we really ... I really want to make sure I get the

right .. you know, the correct answer from you. OK. Presumably, you feel that local people should very much be allowed to contribute to a project like this, or to be able to ?

MRX: Definitely. Well in the 70’s when they dredged it, we weren’t asked then, and they ruined it.

If we’d been asked at the time, would you have any objection to what we’re going to do here, the fishing people would have been in uproar, quite rightly. And I think anybody who understood what they were going to do would have disagreed anyway. But we weren’t asked about that. They just turned up with the machines which cost a bomb, spent a long long time turning it into a useless ditch. You couldn’t get down the bank because they were so steep. They piled all the spoil up on the sides so you couldn’t climb over it anyway, and made a total mess of it. Nobody asked us then.

INT: Right. MRX: And you didn’t even know who you could approach to say what the hell’s going on here.

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There was no information given to anybody. Now in this case, it’s been totally the opposite. And that’s as it should be. Don’t you think so?

INT: Oh yes. Do you think that the consultation could have been done better in any way? MRX: No. I don’t think so. INT: OK. MRX: They bent over backwards to tell us what was going on to be fair. INT: Would you say that you were satisfied with what they did? MRX: Certainly. INT: That it was a successful consultation process in the village? MRX: Yes. INT: OK. One of the things that they said they wanted to do with the project, was to restore the

river to a more natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe to me, not necessarily this river, but a natural river, how would you describe a natural river?

MRX: Difficult that. First thought is one that hasn’t been ruined by dredging, but rivers have

always been altered to a degree haven’t they, and so difficult. One that hasn’t been messed about too much, but at this point you could say that this one has been messed about, but it’s been improved, not always ... alteration isn’t always improvement, but in this case I think it has been. But a natural river, well who knows.

INT: What sort of image do you get in your mind if you were to think of a natural river? MRX: The Wye. INT: The River Wye. MRX: You think about they Wye around Hay for instance, those sort of things, trees all along the

sides, it’s been like that for the last ... I don’t know how many hundred years ... not interfered with except that they do the things ... cut the weed to ... I mean you’ve got to cut weed and you’ve got to cut the overhangs. I mean this river would have been left as it was going, and I’m still not sure how that’s going to go, because they used to have people I understand that came up and cut the overhanging trees, for instance, and cut the weed and made sure the banks were all right. And I don’t think that they’ve got the manpower for that any more. So left alone, of course they deteriorate, so you’ve got to have some form of management haven’t you. As long as it’s not overmanaged.

INT: Yes. MRX: Now this has been overmanaged for 2 years if you like .... but now if they leave it alone, and

let the things that they’ve put in place mature, I think it’ll be superb, but even then, it’ll need

10

some form of managing at some stage won’t it? INT: Right. Presumably, yes. MRX: Yes. Otherwise the meanders might straighten themselves out and ... I don’t know. They’ll

know more than me about that. INT: How natural do you think the river here looked before they did the project compared to how

it looks now say? MRX: It didn’t. INT: It didn’t look natural. MRX: That straight bit was a mess and downstream was a mess because it had been dredged. As I

say all the spoil was just dumped on the top of the bank which is possibly ... I don’t know, but it didn’t look very good. As soon as they done that the nettles spread so you couldn’t get through. You couldn’t get to the river anyway. It was down a 12 foot, 15 foot steep bank, so the fishermen couldn’t get down to find a place to fish, you know. It wasn’t worth walking along to be honest. It was horrible. A mess.

INT: And you think it looks more natural now. MRX: Oh absolutely. Well, more natural ... it certainly looks a damn sight better. INT: OK. Do you think it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring rivers to a natural state, or

not? MRX: It depends on the river and it depends on what sort of state it’s in to start with. I mean, to

take a couple of examples, take the Trent when you see that on telly when they’re showing the football and the cricket, and that’s just concrete at either side, dead straight, with the men fishing shoulder to shoulder, well that’s not natural. I mean, what you could do about that through that sort of area I don’t know. I mean I’ve seen photos of what they done in Warrington...

INT: Darlington. MRX: Darlington. That looks pretty good. ... Yes, things can be done but every bit’s individual isn’t

it. INT: Yes, it depends on each river. MRX: It depends on where resources are going to be spent. But that provided quite a bit of work

down there. INT: Local? MRX: No. No local work? It was all contractors that came in.

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INT: No local ones? MRX: No they came from up north. INT: Did they? MRX: They did both projects, I think. INT: Oh. I didn’t know that. MRX: Yes, they stayed in caravans down here. The chaps that actually dug it out and did the work,

they came from ... I don’t know.. Lancashire, Yorkshire, somewhere up there. And came down and stayed for months on end. Lived n hotels, well digs, in Farringdon and Highworth, and in a caravan down there.

INT: Oh. I thought they’d use some local people. MRX: No, well they might have done in some respects, but I don’t remember that. But the actual

digging was done by contractors from up north and they were excellent. INT: OK. You were saying just now about ... you need to manage rivers to a certain extent and

that sort of thing, I mean, it’s been said that we’ve sort of tamed our rivers, that we control them, most of our rivers now. Would you say that that was true? Do you think that’s the case or ...?

MRX: It certainly looks that way. From the top end you’ve got the Thames Barrier, and they’re

talking about the Severn Barrier as a possibility for .. now that would create the big difference ... I suppose we do control them. Some of them need controlling but it depends whether you’re going to use it or control them ... I mean the Severn one they’re talking about for power, aren’t they, for one reason. But it has lots of ramifications. But in terms of local rivers, like this one, left to it’s own devices it will clog up with weeds, the banks will fall in, the trees on the outside will join in the middle and you won’t be able to do anything on it. But managed properly, which means money, ... will provide work ... you’ve still got to pay them out of somewhere.

INT: Of course. MRX: Very nice. Certainly it has to be done, it should be done, money should be found for those

sort of things. INT: Right. Do you think that by controlling rivers, by managing them, it makes them any less

natural? MRX: It depends how you manage them, but ... it depends how you define natural. INT: Yes, that’s right. MRX: They’ve got to be managed, but in an understanding sort of way. You’ve got to think of all

the things that you’re going to disturb and alter.

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INT: Yes. Yes. MRX: They manage the rivers where the mink hangs down there. INT: Yes, absolutely. MRX: That’s fine. If you don’t manage mink you’ve got nothing else along the river .. the banks. INT: Right. Right. MRX: Some people would moan about disturbance by mink hounds, but it’s not as bad as

disturbance by mink. If you have otters, you know, it goes on and on, doesn’t it. There’s the fishermen moaning, but there’s nothing with wrong ... it would be nice if they got an otter or two. There’s a bit of a difference between what otters do and what mink do.

INT: Is there? MRX: Well yes. Mink will kill all the bird life along the river, the ducks and all the rest of it, and I

believe the otters only take fish. INT: Right. MRX: At the moment, the way it’s going, there’ll be no shortage of them. INT: Do you think a river can still look fairly natural if it’s managed? MRX: Yes. Absolutely, why not? Of course, yes. INT: Yes. OK. MRX: I mean the Wye, the fishing ??? on the Wye are managed. The weed is cut and ... you take

the Hampshire Avon and the ??? trout streams. If they didn’t cut the weed there wouldn’t be any trout and it is managed, but it’s still a very nice natural river.

INT: Right. Would you think about the restoration project here as being scientific? MRX: Definitely. Yes. INT: You would. MRX: Yes, I’ve talked to the people who’ve been doing it, digging holes and dropping jam jars and

doing levels and .... totally scientific, absolutely. That’s the side of it I don’t know enough about to really say whether it’s been a success, but it’s definitely been scientific. There are still people turning up in bus loads doing projects.

INT: Are there? MRX: Yes. They’ve been taken round and they go back to their various universities or whatever.

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I mean, what are you doing here, this is scientific. INT: Yes. Social science, yes. MRX: Yes. Exactly. Various types of science, but .... totally. And local schools have been

involved. There’s still kids coming in asking questions because they’re doing individual projects. Definitely a science to the nth degree.

INT: Have you got much idea of what sort of scientific knowledge is needed to do a project like

this? Different types of knowledge that you would need to know. MRX: I would imagine yes. Because I went to the meeting when they showed us ... I mean, just to

get the levels right, and to know where to put the sluices, and the various gravel beds that they’ve put in by the fords and shallower parts ... depth was essential ... they needed to know the history of the place to know where meanders went.

INT: Yes. Yes. MRX: The biological side ... and the animal side. There’s blokes been with nets through, seeing

what there was there. In the first phase and in the second. It goes on and on and on. Plus of course the actual mechanical putting in of the things, the bridges and the sluices, where they’ve got to be ... the bit down by the Seven Steps was very tricky, that, from what I could see.

INT: Was it? Yes. MRX: They dug a damn great hole and I believe the ditch that comes along the first field, in the

Trust field, the water then goes underneath the river into the bit round the back of the football field. I think that’s right.

INT: Yes. MRX: Very tricky stuff. I mean I don’t pretend to understand how you start to work it all out but

it’s clever stuff. There were some bright sparks working all that out. INT: Engineering skills, yes. MRX: Yes. Engineering and ... they’d have to ally that to all the other things, you know, to know

what does what if you put it where. INT: Yes, so they all had to work together. MRX: Oh absolutely. It was a hell of a job and it looks as if it’s been a success. The only slight

wonders I’ve got at the moment is whether they are getting enough water along there for long enough, perhaps we haven’t had enough water ... rain ... we’ve had a fair bit mind. But not enough to work that one out.

INT: Yes. There wasn’t much last year though was there?

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MRX: No last year wasn’t as ... it was a non-starter. But this winter they have, and I understand that Mr XXXXX is it?

INT: XXXXX .. MRX: I understand he’s been and was very pleased about it. INT: I haven’t spoken to him recently. MRX: Yes, I understand he was really chuffed when they saw the flooding and what it had done in

terms of depositing silt and the like in the places just where they wanted them. So it sounds as if it’s gone well, but I’m not qualified to judge.

INT: Would you say that ... to what extent do you think that the RRP people know how to restore

rivers? MRX: I had my doubts when they started, but now it certainly seems to me that they really knew

what they were at. Professionals. And the results are there to see. INT: So you think they’ve got the necessary knowledge ... MRX: Totally. Yes, much less sceptical than I was. I was very sceptical to start with ... I thought

they might be a bit ... optimistic ... and a bit too clever by half. INT: Yes. MRX: And now I don’t doubt them at all because they’ve shown that they can do it. INT: Would you say you trusted them to know what they were doing? MRX: I didn’t trust them to start with. I wondered if they were in it for what they could make. INT: Financially you mean? Yes. MRX: Yes. Because when they said it was ... talking about the funding, I was very sceptical ... I

thought somebody’s got to be in this for a good take. And whatever they’ve taken, they’ve earned. You know, they’ve worked damned hard on it and there it is. They’ve done everything that they said they were going to do and more.

INT: Right. Right. MRX: I’d like to see a breakdown of all the figures, because I’ve said to you before I reckon it cost

more than they’ve said. I reckon that there were inputs that perhaps don’t show on the bottom line.

INT: Have you seen any figures? MRX: No.

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INT: No. MRX: No. I haven’t. INT: I haven’t for a long time. MRX: But I’ve heard figures, people have given me figures, they’ve said oh they said it only cost

that much, and they found it cost that much ... but I still think it cost a bomb. But I think it was worth every penny. But of course costs are ongoing, and a lot of them are not direct anyway. I mean, you are here, and that’s costing something to somewhere or somebody ...

INT: But not them. MRX: But not them. INT: Yes. MRX: But that’s not to say it’s not worth doing. But it would be interesting to see more of the

figures. INT: Yes. Yes. MRX: For instance, if you put XXXXXX’s time in at £1 an hour for what he’d done over the years

... that’s a few bob. INT: Well this is it. Yes. MRX: But that’s XXXXXXXX time, so that doesn’t come into the equation. INT: No. I think that’s the case in ... as far as a lot of people as well, that have been involved in ... MRX: Yes, universities and the like. INT: Yes. MRX: But no complaints about it. It would be interesting to see a good breakdown of the figures

because I don’t suppose half of them are telling the truth. Lies, damn lies and statistics. INT: Statistics, yes. Do you think then there’s probably still a lot more to be learnt about doing

this sort of thing ... restoring rivers? MRX: I wouldn’t know. You’d have to ask them. INT: Right. Yes. MRX: Who am I to say. INT: Yes. I did ask them actually. They think what they’ve done here is the tip of the iceberg,

you know, there’s a hell of a lot more to learn.

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MRX: I wouldn’t doubt it at all. INT: Yes. MRX: I’m sure they’ve learnt a lot but they haven’t ... the main thing is that it appears to have been

a first project ... and they haven’t made a total muck up of it, it’s been from our view successful ... probably from their point of view as good as they could have hoped. But I bet if they started again, they would probably think they could do something better, I don’t know what... but I’m sure they think, well we might have done that slightly differently, but it wouldn’t be natural if it wasn’t so.

INT: No. Do you think that rivers left to their own devices sort of change naturally anyway over

time? MRX: It’s a scientific fact isn’t it? You know, meanders join up across the bow, and all that

business. Yes they do and of course also they will choke up with weed and ... they do need managing.

INT: Yes. Yes. Do you know a lot about the history of the river round here? MRX: No. No. INT: You don’t. MRX: No, none at all. INT: No. Do you know, for example, where the river starts, where it goes to once it leaves here,

that sort of thing? MRX: All I know that it goes down into the Thames and I don’t know where it starts, except that I

think it’s in ... I’ll probably get egg on my face .. but I think in Swindon somewhere, something to do with the Wray[?] maybe. I don’t know.

INT: I don’t know actually. MRX: I don’t know. No. I know if you go down and head on into XXXX ???? other farms,

there’s the river there as well. That’s it really. INT: Do you know the rivers beyond the project? MRX: No. Hardly at all. INT: No. MRX: I know, that way for about six or eight to ten fields, because I’ve walked it. INT: Yes.

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MRX: But no more than that. INT: How does it compare ... that part of it ... to what they’ve done here? MRX: Much more open ... nothing much along the banks ... it tends to be ... you’re out in the wilds,

very rural and not bad, it’s all right, but this is obviously going to look at lot better with the planting they’ve done, for instance, along the banks and the fact that you’ve got the shallow bits and the deep bits.

INT: Yes. MRX: It’s going to be nice. INT: In a few years you think ... rather than ... MRX: It’s nice now, but it’ll be a lot nicer in two or three, five, ten years. But I think we’ll need

somebody there to do the hacking back when we want that. Now I don’t know who’s going to do that ... are the National Trust going to do it? Who’s going to do the maintenance? Because that’s going to cost money. My own feeling ... they used to have, I believe, gangs that came up the Thames from the Thames, coming up ... chopping weeds, chopping the banks, seeing to the overhangs ... those sort of things. We still need them. They haven’t got them because they say, oh we can’t afford it, because it’s the local Councils I expect, but it needs doing. Somebody ought to find the money.

[End of interview]

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COLESHILL INTERVIEW 9 – 4th FEBRUARY 1998 INT: ... to ask you. You may not be able to answer all of them ... MrsX: I’ll probably have as little to say as I had then I should imagine. INT: Oh really. I mean, do you actually go down to the river at all, or not very often, or ... ? MrsX: Not very often really. We’ve walked through the park sometimes but we tend not to go

down to the river so much. INT: Right. Have you been down and seen what they’ve done there at all? MrsX: I have been down, yes. INT: So you know ... MrsX: I’ve been this side but not on that side really. INT: Yes. You haven’t been downstream from the village. MrsX: No. INT: No. OK. But you’ve seen the new channels that the people have done. MrsX: Yes. INT: OK. You should be able to answer some of these. OK. What I’ll start by asking is

whether you think the project or the restoration project has been successful in any way or not, as the case may be, and why you think it may or may not have been successful?

MrsX: Right. Conservation wise, I don’t really know. I don’t think there’s been enough

information given. I know they’ve had various, I don’t know whether they’ve had open days and so on, but either I haven’t been here or I haven’t seen them, or I’ve not been able to go. But I don’t think you’ll hear much about what they were hoping to achieve, hence I don’t really know what they have achieved or whether they’ve achieved what they wanted to. From the point of view of people in the village, and walking and so on, it’s probably not as successful as it was in some ways, I should think.

INT: Any other sort of criteria that you can think of ... where you think that it may have been

successful or not? MrsX: I should imagine it’s brought a certain amount of publicity to the area and the village. INT: Do you see that as being a positive thing? MrsX: A mixed blessing I suppose. We’ve always seen quite a lot of ramblers and walkers in

the area. I haven’t noticed that the numbers have increased certainly but ...

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INT: OK. Out of those things that you’ve mentioned, that you think perhaps it has been successful for, what would you say perhaps you think would be the most important?

MrsX: Well, conservation purposes I suppose. INT: Do you see that there have been any benefits for you personally from the project? MrsX: No, not really. INT: What about perhaps for other people ... the community rather sort of generally? MrsX: I don’t know whether it’s intended to act as any kind of study resource for local schools

or anything. Again, I mean, I’m not at home during the daytime, so I wouldn’t really perhaps notice if it was being used in that way. I don’t know how the anglers feel about it now.

INT: Can you remember when ... I mean presumably ... were you here before they did the

project? MrsX: I was, yes. INT: If you can try and remember before ... when you first heard that they were going to do the

project down there ... did you have any particular expectations about what you thought it was going to be like?

MrsX: No, not particularly. I mean, I actually worked for XXXXXX at the time. ... I suppose

you don’t tend to realise how long it would take for it to get back into anything like a natural looking state. I mean, it still looks very raw, and I know that the feeling at the time was that ... after the work that had been done on it in the 70’s ... it had finally more or less achieved some kind of equilibrium and now they were sort of trying to put it back as it was.

INT: I mean do you think then perhaps, aesthetically looking at, it hasn’t been particularly

successful or .. ? MrsX: Well I suppose it would be a long term aim in that way anyway. As I said, it had

achieved something, a fairly natural looking state in 20 years or so, but if you came back and looked in another 20 years, it would probably look great, but I won’t be here in 20 years I shouldn’t imagine. I don’t mean I’ll be .... I shall be moved somewhere in a different job probably.

INT: OK. So you didn’t really know what to expect. Is that about right? MrsX: No. No. INT: What I was going to say was how does it compare now with how perhaps you expected it

to be, but if you didn’t really know what to expect ... MrsX: No, I suppose, that remark about it still looking very raw ... I mean that’s not something

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you tend to think about ... I suppose I would have realised if I’d thought hard about it, but we perhaps didn’t realise the massive degree of earth moving and so on, I mean ... with the scale of the works.

INT: Right. Would you say the river plays any part at all in your life? MrsX: Probably not particularly. It tends to more so because I get dragged fishing now much

more. INT: Do you think it plays much of a role in the life of the local village generally or not? MrsX: I suppose it’s one of those parts of your local environment that you tend to take for

granted really. INT: Yes, that’s true. MrsX: Perhaps you’d miss it if it wasn’t there, but .... INT: Do you see it as being an important part of the local landscape? MrsX: Yes, I think so. INT: I don’t know if you’ve got any idea whether when the project was being planned or

designed, do you know whether local use of the river area was taken into account by the project people?

MrsX: I don’t know. Well I don’t remember any surveys or such like. I know there were certain

discussions with XXXXX, I seem to remember they were deeply concerned. I don’t know what consultation really they ... But as a village, I mean, a lot of people walk across the park that way, and walk their dogs and so on. But there certainly wasn’t a questionnaire round saying do you walk your dog every day down there.

INT: Do you think that sort of thing should be taken into consideration, how people do use the

area, when people are planning things like this? MrsX: I would think everybody likes to feel they’ve been consulted. INT: You say you weren’t involved at all in any of the consultation ... on the project? MrsX: Not that I remember, I mean, it must be quite a while ago now that they were planning it

... INT: It goes back to early 95 I would think. MrsX: Yes. I don’t remember. INT: They had a couple of meetings in the village which people were invited to go to. MrsX: And which no one in the village did.

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INT: I don’t know how many people went actually. MrsX: You can predict which people would have gone and which people wouldn’t have gone. INT: Right. Yes. It’s always the same people that .... So you didn’t. Were you aware, if

you can remember, of any of these things going on at the time or ... MrsX: Yes, I think so. I think I probably did, yes. INT: But not really interested enough to go ... MrsX: Well, at the time ... I was expecting to leave almost immediately, so ... we weren’t really

worrying too much about that. INT: No. OK. Do you know whether any local people in the village did have, or were able

to have an input into what was actually done on site? MrsX: I don’t know. I would have thought that somebody like XXXXX might have had some

input. INT: OK. So you don’t really know whether people had much of a chance to ... MrsX: No, I can imagine people who might have but ... INT: Can you think of any ways that people could have been more involved with the

consultation, or do you not really know enough about what happened? MrsX: I suppose a similar kind of survey was ... as you are doing at the moment, where they

actually come round and ask you questions, you’re more likely to pin people down and get their opinion than actually calling a meeting in an evening.

INT: Yes. That’s true. MrsX: I mean, I feel that loads of people, when you’ve been in meetings all day at work you

don’t want to come home and go to a meeting somewhere else. INT: Do you know whether the consultation was considered to be satisfactory or successful by

people in the village, or not? Have you heard anything at all? MrsX: I would have thought at the time ... the impression I got was that people didn’t really

know what was being planned. INT: Right. Even after the sort of consultation? MrsX: Yes. INT: Yes. That’s interesting. Could you suggest any ways in which it could have perhaps

been improved upon or ... apart from when you said about people coming round like this,

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one to one .... ? MrsX: I don’t know if there were any leaflets or anything like that ... I do remember that there

were various editorials in newspapers that I always seemed to miss. You’d go to work and somebody would say did you see that in The Times last week ... No.

INT: Yes. Do you look upon the river at all as sort of belonging to the village? MrsX: Yes. I suppose so. INT: Would you see it as being local property in a sense? MrsX: That’s difficult again as I haven’t really been here that long and I don’t come from this

area, but I should imagine that a lot of people do feel quite strongly that it’s local property. You’d perhaps find that ... I don’t know, since I’ve been here, it sounds dreadful, but a lot of the old people have passed away. There seems to be more and more people who’ve moved in fairly recently. When I first came here there were an awful lot of people who’d been here and their parents had lived here, and I think if you’d come round then you would have found that people felt quite strongly that it was sort of village property.

INT: More sort of historical attachment. MrsX: Well that’s it, I suppose if you played down there when you were a kid or something,

you’ve always grown up with it, then you feel more attached to a place don’t you. INT: Of course. How much do you know, or do you know anything, about the history of the

river? MrsX: No not really, probably. INT: Do you know much geographically, about where the river begins, where it runs to and

that sort of thing, or not? MrsX: I suppose so in a sort of vague way. If I thought about it hard I probably do, yes. INT: Have you seen other parts of the Cole? MrsX: Yes. Yes. INT: Would you say you felt involved in any way with the river, or not? MrsX: Not really. INT: Do you think there are other people in the village that perhaps would feel .... perhaps the

older generation ... have any other sort of user groups or .... ????? MrsX: No. I don’t think we have any canoeists. You get the odd one up here but it’s a little bit

narrow.

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INT: No one else? MrsX: Just the XXXXX. INT: One of the things that the restoration people were trying to do was to restore the river to a

more natural condition, which you mentioned earlier as well, if I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, how would you describe one?

MrsX: It depends on what part of the natural river you were looking at, obviously, I mean, this

river, this section of it, I would have said is a fairly well formed section of the river, you would expect meanders and cut off meanders, back waters and sort of marshy areas and areas of flood meadow and so on.

INT: I mean thinking, not necessarily about the river here, but just sort of generally I suppose,

if you think about a natural river, can you think of any other features that you would expect to see or to find there?

MrsX: I suppose a fairly varied wildlife and plants, very varied kind of species ... and variations

in habitat for them as well, say some sort of marshy areas and ???? INT: Anything else? MrsX: Obviously they’re looking for otters back again. INT: Yes. OK. Do you think that the people that did the project would have a similar view

of a natural river in mind when they were creating the one here? MrsX: I don’t really know. INT: No. Do you think in this day and age, that it’s really feasible to talk about restoring

rivers to their natural state or not? MrsX: I’m not sure whether I see the point ... certainly not in a situation like this. INT: Could you think perhaps of other situations where you think it might be more ...? MrsX: Yes, possibly in a more built up environment perhaps, you a more spoiled ... I would be

thinking more in terms of cutting down on pollution, etc. INT: Thinking back to how the river was before they did the project, how natural did you think

it was then? You said, where they’d straightened it had time .... MrsX: Yes, well it wasn’t natural I suppose in that that very straight canalised form doesn’t have

the same variety of habitat. INT: No. MrsX: I’m not sure whether over hundreds of years it would have reinstated itself or not. I

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don’t suppose anybody would hang around to find out. INT: That’s another thing ... do you think ... do you see rivers as being fairly permanent or

perhaps changing over longer periods of time? MrsX: Changing over a long period of time, certainly. I mean I think there have been changes

more recently. I would have said there’s been bigger changes because of pollution, effluent, and nitrates, etc.

INT: More sort of human induced changes ... MrsX: Yes. I know we get lots of motorbike rubbish. INT: Would you say that you ... how natural do you think it actually looks now that they’ve ...

bits that you’ve seen anyway, the new channels and that, now that they’ve done the project?

MrsX: Well, as I say, it doesn’t at the moment, but then I don’t think you can expect it to after

two seasons or so. I mean if you re-landscape a garden you wouldn’t expect it to look natural after two years.

INT: I mean do you think maybe in five, ten years time ... MrsX: I think perhaps in 10, 15 years maybe it will ... INT: Yes. I mean compared with other rivers, you mentioned the Thames, and fishing down

there, how natural do you think it is compared with some of these other places? Again, do you think it’s too soon to really make comparisons?

MrsX: I think it’s probably too soon to compare really. INT: One of the things that’s been said about rivers in this country is that most of them now are

managed or controlled, or have been sort of tamed, by human action. Do you think that’s the case?

MrsX: XXXXXXXXXX INT: Do you think it matters, or do you think we need to control our rivers like we do? MrsX: I think so, yes. Certainly it makes life a lot easier for some people. INT: Yes. Yes. MrsX: Although I wouldn’t ... as a reason ... I mean sometimes the reason for controlling a river

has been providing extra land for development ... I don’t think that’s a good reason for controlling rivers.

INT: Right. So for maybe other more practical reasons, like to stop flooding, or something a

bit more appropriate.

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MrsX: Yes. Yes. It’s damage to existing property. INT: Do you think that by controlling rivers it makes them more or less natural at all? MrsX: Less natural. INT: Do you think that matters? MrsX: Yes, I think so in the long term. I mean, in the case of a river like this, I suppose the idea

was in parts to stop it flooding, one of the main ideas. Obviously the flooding has an impact on the farm land around. Going back to the XXXX, it hasn’t stopped that flooding the farm land either side.

INT: Yes, it makes you wonder whether you can actually ever really control ... MrsX: Not completely. INT: Well a big river anyway. MrsX: Yes. INT: Do you think though that it’s still possible for a river to look natural, or partly natural,

even if it is managed and controlled? MrsX: Yes I think so. INT: Do you think that the restoration scheme here has been a scientific project in any way? MrsX: I would hope so. INT: Have you got any idea what sort of knowledge, scientific knowledge, or other knowledge,

that would be needed to do a project like this? MrsX: Well, I suppose, geographical, biological, etc. INT: I’m just trying to sort of get at why do you think ... in what way do you think it’s been a

scientific project? MrsX: I suppose it has allowed them to study the sort of regeneration of the river and perhaps

it’s move back towards a natural state ... the way that habitats form and plants and animals move in and colonise an area. I mean, itself it can’t be a study of a natural river because it’s not a natural process that it’s undergone.

INT: No, that’s right. To what extent do you think that the people that did the project, the

river restoration project, to what extent do you think they know how to restore rivers? Have you got any idea?

MrsX: I’ve no idea. I know that there have been several similar projects. I assume that this

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was one of the later ones, so you would hope that they gained a fair amount of knowledge along the way.

INT: Yes. I mean, would you say that, as much as you know about them, that you would trust

that they had the right knowledge and that they would do what they thought to be best for the river or not?

MrsX: Yes, I think so. INT: Have you got any idea perhaps what else might need to be learnt or investigated about

restoring rivers? Or do you think they probably know, more or less, now ... ? MrsX: I shouldn’t think so, because I mean they presumably need to study the after-effects, the

long term effects, of what they’ve done, to find out whether they are going to be successful in any way.

INT: Yes. Do you feel that overall you approve of what’s been done down there, or have you

not really any thoughts on it? MrsX: Probably not, in particular. I think it was one of those things where you perhaps felt that

money could be better spent elsewhere. But then everybody has their own ideas. INT: You mentioned earlier ... was that particularly because it being a rural area you didn’t

really think it was going to make much difference, or ....? MrsX: Well, I think, as I said, it hadn’t achieved a natural state again, but it had achieved some

kind of an equilibrium. And I don’t think it was damaging the local scene as it was. It was having no sort of harmful effect on ... well, as much as I know of it .. on either the landscape or the wildlife.

INT: Did you realise that it was a demonstration project? MrsX: No. INT: Which was being done as a first, if you like, along with another project in Darlington ...

not that restoration hasn’t been done before, but what hadn’t been done was it hadn’t been carefully monitored all the way through from before, during and after ... monitoring water quality, invertebrates in the channels, other plant species, wildlife species, and things. So it was a sort of a test project if you like, which they were hoping to learn from and be able to then apply similar techniques to other situations, you know, ... so you hadn’t been aware ...

MrsX: No, not really. INT: No. OK. That’s more or less about it actually. Is there anything else that you would

like to add or to ask me? MrsX: I don’t think so particularly.

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INT: OK. Well thank you very much. That’s useful. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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NOTE: MEDWAY INTERVIEWS In order to render these interviews unidentifiable, the following changes have been made. Name initials have been changed. Details have been changed or omitted so that some interviews are slightly shorter than in the original. Int: in the text indicates the interviewer. INTERVIEW MEDWAY1 Int: You were saying that the towpath is a bit slippery? MrsN: Yes, well that’s an understatement. Certain parts of it is a quagmire and people have had to start cutting paths into the wood to be able to get from a to b. The kids get down there with their motorbikes using it as a scramble track and there is something like 12 inches of mud. Where it is so uneven it dips down, because of the erosion and the bikes there is a severe danger of going over into the river. Int: Which stretch is this? MrsN: It’s from the bridge up into Pinkhams Lock and further Int: That’s walking .. MrsN: From this bridge Int: Not in the Oak Weir direction? MrsN: No from this bridge into Pinkham Lock and then Pinkham Lock through. Int: So it is this stretch. Is it the bit by Branbridges. MrsN: Yes, Whitbreads, you can cut through there to Whitbreads. Int: Bear with me a moment while I find my papers. MrsN: The recreation things that they have been doing which went in the year before last, seems to have worked nicely, the bank has built up quite well and the trees are retraining, but again the fishermen have kicked half of it down and have made their own little path around, so that part of it is defeated, but the bit that they have done to keep the normal law abiding pedestrians out of the way has worked nicely, it has built up quite well. Int: This is the bit by Branbridges is it? MrsN: Yes just literally the first bit by the bridge. Int: One thing I was going to ask you was how successful do you think it has been? MrsN: Well that has built up very well. The one thing I mainly objected to was the way they dredged out the lock. There is a lot of stuff beginning to show interest, there have been sightings of otters there,but you won’t get otters there any more. They have dredged it so deep

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and so wide that it’s lost its individual habitat. There were dragonflies there and now it’s flushed out every time a boat goes through, which is about one in the summer and it has totally lost its beauty and nature appeal. If they are looking to, rather than service the river for boat owners, to keep the river going for wildlife they are tackling this in the wrong way. Int: Talking about Branbridges, do you go up to the Oak Weir direction beyond the first lock further on than that. Do you ever walk that section? MrsN: No. Int: They did another scheme up there but if you don’t go that way towards Oak Weir . MrsN: Occasionally we will walk that way then turn around and come back again, that’s not too bad but there again there is very little chance of getting near to the river as it is very steep. That’s one way down and one way back unless they put a pedestrian bridge across to the other side which would be nice, but then of course we have got the bypass going through there so bang goes that little dog walk. So that really does leave this one that makes a round trip. Again we have got the Eagle Road crossing because there is no pedestrian path, on the footpath side of the bridge, so you have got to cross over once, go across the bridge and cross over again to get to the footpath. You have to take your life in your hands. Int: So thinking about the Branbridges scheme, you talked a little bit about how successful you thought it had been, what is the main criteria that you use to decide whether it is successful? MrsN: Well seeing physically the growth of the brambles, the bushes and the wild flowers coming back, slowly reclaiming the land. Seeing that. Int: Any other things that you would take into account? MrsN: Well no, we have had such a dry summer that you can’t really tell if it is going to stand up to a heavy flood, but they do correct the weirs very easily, there have been very few occasions where it has threatened at all and there is nothing they could have done anyway, short of pulling the plughole out, but they do control the water level very well so I very much doubt whether they are going to get a very heavy flash flood. The kids will do anything, when they were dredging it out the year before last they got a motorbike out of there. I don’t think they got a body as well. You will get everything tipped in there the kids are uncontrollable. Int: Any other things you think about when you think about whether it was successful or not? MrsN: Well no. It’s human nature with the number of these places that they have been reclaiming, just as quickly you will get anglers going down there in the summer, setting up a camp and a picnic site and cutting in steps and cutting in landings so they take over an area of the river for their own private use during the summer. Then of course they desert it in the winter and it is just laid barren. So again the rain goes washing down and it is washed out

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rather than build itself up again. So although yes it is increasing access for one lot of normal users, there are always the lot that are going to drive their cars right to the edge of the river and camp out there. Int: Right, that’s a problem. MrsN: Campers are a real menace. Int: Campers, are the angler campers or just campers. MrsN: Well anglers they might have a fishing rod somewhere in the back of the car, but the rubbish they leave is disgusting and they are there for 2-3 weeks on end. As I say the rubbish, especially in the winter you can go along and you can see bags and bags of refuse just kicked out and never even bother to clear it away. Again fishing line, there was a dead swan down there 2/3 weeks ago when I went down there, obviously got fishing line around it and it had no chance. Fishing line if a menace because if the dog goes swimming you never know what she is going to get tangled in. Int: So there are still quite a few problems? MrsN: It needs policing. If it’s an official fishing area it needs policing by the Rivers Authority that issues the licences, they need to check the licences because I doubt very much whether there is anyone fishing with a licence. If I go trout fishing I have got to spend a lot of money to be able to go for a day’s trout fishing. These people just turn up, sling God knows what in there, pollute the river, make it look like a tip and go away again. They then say we won’t go back there because it’s dirty, and it’s them that make it dirty in the first place. Int: Thinking back to before the scheme was done, do you remember what your expectations were? Did you have any foreknowledge or expectations? MrsN: No the first thing we knew was that the work was being done there. There was one occasion I was walking past and there was a man there with half a dozen kids, standing propping the wheelbarrow up, moving stones from one bit to another bit and that was the only sign of work I saw over there. We didn’t know anything about it. It came as a surprise to the dog walkers around here. Int: So you didn’t have any expectations then. MrsN: Oh no we didn’t know anything about it. The first thing we knew is when they were actually doing it. They regularly annually dredge the main river, which is understandable, it has got boats going up and down it, but when they started into the lock, I could see that they were actually making just great hills of mud and swamp and all the bulrushes were all dug up and totally decimated. Int: So your feeling on the impact of the work on the wildlife so far has been MrsN: On wildlife, apart from the reinforcement of the banks, certainly by the bridge, that

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was the good bit, that was very positive,but as far as the dredging of Pinkham Weir I am not exactly sure what they were after. There was no way an ecologist in his right mind would have done it. As I say it totally decimated the whole of the area. For the foxes, I know there’s rabbits around here, but the fox has to live on something and if you start taking that away then they are going to raid the dustbins. Int: So any other points that you would like to make about the scheme? Are there benefits with the work that has been done? MrsN: No I don’t think so. Everything is maintained, the bridges are maintained well, the footpaths aren’t maintained at all. If that’s how they clear a weir I dread to think what they would do to the footpath, probably put tarmac down or something. The new landing stage is quite nice, photographically speaking it is quite nice. I go and sit on the landing stage and I get my dog to jump off the side of the bank and I get quite nice photographs. I don’t think I have seen that many boats using it. Int: Who do you think are the main beneficiaries of the works that have been done? MrsN: The boat users certainly. I think the whole thing has been done with them in mind. Int: How about the local people or walkers? MrsN: Nothing has been done for them, absolutely nothing. Int: In what sort of way? MrsN: Nothing has been done. I think the local people wouldn’t mind having a decent footpath. I know it’s not asking much. Certainly from Pinkham to Small Hatch the footpath isn’t maintained at all on our side. The other side which is private fishing is kept by one little man, but our side is unpenetrable. There is no maintenance there at all, so for local people and walkers it doesn’t exist. One little man who has voluntarily gone out and cut a very nice little walk through the woods this side of the river, behind Branbridges I suppose you would say. It was impenetrable before and he has cut a very nice path through, but I think that is just a local guy who enjoys going out in the country and sorting things out. All you ever see is the NRA guy go down in the land rover have a nice cup of coffee with the vicar for about an hour and drive off again. Nothing has been done for walkers. Int: Thinking generally, what sort of part does the river play in the life of the community here? How important would you say it is? MrsN: I would say it is only the dog walkers and a few bird watchers. The dog walkers will go over there but we all desert it in droves in the summer time because you can’t get near it for fishermen, some of them are there at 5.30 in the morning. It’s no pleasure going over there walking the dog in the summer time, the dog just doesn’t get a decent walk at all. Int: Is that because . MrsN: The fishermen are downright rude. If the dog goes anywhere near them what they call them is nobody’s business. As I say it is kids, you never know if you are going to turn a corner and a motorbike will kill your dog, which it is more than capable of doing over there.

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So it is only really the early Spring and the late Autumn and a few nice Winter days where we have a nice place to walk. But again there is this patch of mud so you can’t just go over there for a casual walk, you wouldn’t be able to get onto the path because that was quagmire recently. Int: The access by the bridge do you mean? MrsN: Yes. Int: Do you think that the range of local use was taken into account when they designed the scheme? MrsN: No I don’t think they even thought about it. Walkers and dog walkers never do seem to get much in the way of people’s consideration. Half way through we have a few very interesting stiles and her mum had greatest difficulty trying to navigate the stiles. She’s a big dog and she gets a big confused and gets her legs tied up in a knot. Int: I have a border collie type dog and think the stupid creature should jump over the stiles. Dog is whining in the background. Difficult to understand some of the conversation. MrsN: I think well should I go under and all of a sudden it develops four more legs and thinks I can’t go under I’ll go through and falls flat on their faces, they get totally confused. What’s the point of putting a stile at either end of the bridge, the bikes are over there already. All they have got to do is move their bikes over they are young kids. Great, one stands one side the other stands the other and the bike goes over. You might stop the motorbikes from getting over but they get in through the back of Whitbread and the back of the old lock they get in and there’s no control at all. There used to be some barbed wire when Whitbreads were there, there was some deer fencing there when it was working, but it hasn’t been maintained. Someone that doesn’t know or a dog that goes off is going to get ripped to shreds by the barbed wire. If you go over there with your dog you keep an eye on them. You could be miles from anywhere and a dog gushing blood. Int: How much do you think that the people see the river along there as local property and feel a sense of ownership. MrsN: I think they do yes. It’s one of the first things you say when people ask where do you live and you say down by the Medway. It’s something we are very proud of. Even those that don’t venture out are well aware of having the river there as part of the identity. Visitors in the summer say well we will go for a walk over the river. There are kids in their high heels hobbling around because they live there and they want to show the river off. But as I say there is no maintenance for that sort of use. It’s one of these catch 22 situations, if you create better access you are going to get more people using it. Do you want more people using it? Int: Do you? MrsN: No I want less people using it, to make the access worse.

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Int: Thinking back to before the works and when they began, how involved were local people in the design and implementation if at all? MrsN: They weren’t not at all. Nobody asked us anything. Well not that we were aware of. There’s normally quite a little buzz around the village centre if anything concerns the village, the gossip, but no. Int: Did you hear anything at all before the work started, nothing around the grapevine? MrsN: No, we just thought oh well they are tarting the river up again. Int: Do you think there were any mechanisms to involve local people when the works were being done. MrsN: No I don’t think they even knew people lived here. Int: To what extent to you think people should have been involved in the works. MrsN: It would have been nice to have had a consultation or something put in the parish newsletter. Int: There was nothing in the parish newsletter? MrsN: Not that I can remember. As I say it came as a total shock. I went over there and all of a sudden there was this river appeared where there used to be a nice little weir. Int: So it was just a surprise. Do you think there should have been something done to consult local people? MrsN: Shall we say it would have been nice to have been consulted but they wouldn’t have taken the blindest bit of notice of what anybody said anyway. Int: Thinking back, how satisfied do you feel with the consultation that didn’t actually occur, with the way that aspect was handled? MrsN: Well they didn’t. As I say we didn’t exist as far as they were concerned, they never thought of who actually uses this apart from the boat owners and that was the only thing they could focus on the boat owners. Int: What would you have liked to have seen in the way of consultation? What sort of things could they have done? MrsN: I think for the amount of money they were supposed to have spent over there, they could have come around and asked everybody at their doorstep. Do you use the river and if so what for? What would you like to see done? The amount of money they spent that wouldn’t have cost much. Int: There weren’t any leaflets? MrsN: As I say no.

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Int: I think they did consult the parish council. MrsN: Well the parish council certainly didn’t say anything to anybody about it. The village gossips certainly around the library and the fruit stall and the Post Office would have said something. I asked if they had been over Pinkham lately and they said no it was too muddy. I said have you seen what they have done to the weir stream. Int: Was it your general experience that people were surprised that something had been done. MrsN: Well yes you never know, somebody could put an airport in with as much notice we normally receive of anything. Int: So you feel it’s just the way things tend to happen? MrsN: We didn’t exist as far as they were concerned. It was the boat traffic they were interested in. I don’t know if they pay a licence to use the river or they pay at the locks. That is about all they did in making the locks work better and getting the boats up and down, which is fine but that’s not the only reason for a river. If people come down to walk down by the side of the river and end up in casualty after falling in, they could do with a little bit of maintenance there. I used to live in xxx, and went up to High Elms quite regularly and I saw the sort of reclamation work that was being done there and certainly on the footpaths where the scouting people would go down there, it has doubled if not more the people who use it because it is so much easier to walk on. Int: Do you feel that a lot of people are put off from using this walkway. MrsN: Well I won’t go over there when it is like this because it is just not worth having an accident, which is very capable of happening. Some of the walk through areas over there are lethal. Have you been over yet? Int: I haven’t been over there this time of year. I walked all of it at various times but not this Autumn. I will go shortly. MrsN: You would want to and if you want some company I will walk with you. On a lovely day yes it is beautiful because it can be very quiet and you can hear the birds, but actually underfoot, certainly in the winter getting through some of the footpaths you will realise that this hasn’t been touched in years, then you see the bits that have been touched and full up with rubbish and it’s very off-putting. There’s a need for care, a warden. Even if the warden only goes around once a week it’s something. The rubbish can sit there from one year to the next and nothing’s ever done. What’s the point in me picking something up and carrying it home, they are only going to do it again. If somebody has cleared up after them all their lives then they always expect somebody to clear up after them. Int: Can I ask you some general questions now? Firstly, what do you think is a natural river? Do you have anything in mind. MrsN: I don’t know of any. Up in Scotland, the Tweed. There aren’t any natural rivers in this country any more. They have all had to be maintained for one reason or another, and as

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far as that aspect is concerned they have done a very good job with the weirs and the locks that they have put in we don’t have the threat of constant flooding which was there before. Again, as I say if you can go over there possibly tomorrow with your wellies and have a very pleasant walk because it can be very quiet and beautiful down there. What’s a natural river, an amount of water going through two sides. Int: What else makes it natural? MrsN: Something that is untouched by man is a natural river, but there is no such thing in this country so it has to be man made to maintain the balance, which is again weighing up access and amount of use. Yes it is nice to have access and nice to have footpaths, but what is the point of putting a footpath down if you are going to get people camping and dropping rubbish and kids having scramble races on the footpaths. So it is one against the other. Int: Right. What do you think that people who manage rivers think about what is a natural river? Do you have any idea of what they think? MrsN: Well something that behaves themselves and they don’t get ‘phone calls over. That’s about it. As long as the ‘phone is not ringing about something flooding somewhere or something is broken I should think they are probably quite happy with it. Int: As to natural, do you think they have some idea as to what a natural river is? MrsN: Yes probably they have probably been out to the Grand Canyon to see the Colorado or up the Nile or something. What is a natural river, even they are managed now. So there is nothing natural about a river now. It is made to work for people’s use. They have cleaned it up a lot as far as stopping the affluent into it. The river itself is quite clean, the water is quite good I am not worried about swimming my dog in there, but as I say it is the human affluent from either side that is the problem. That’s not the river part of it. A natural river is one that finds its own way to the sea by definition. Therefore, too many man made cuttings and too many dead straight lines end up being a canal. They can be very nice from time to time. Int: Do you think we can talk about us restoring a river to natural conditions? MrsN: Oh yes because we have an influence on how it is every day. Humans influence the way the river takes a course. If somebody chucks a car in the middle of it, that’s going to affect the way it flows. So yes it has got to have an influence how it is maintained. It has got to maintained with the thought that not only the humans are using it but the animals are using it. Sometimes if you go over there is talk miles around about “Oh did you see the kingfisher, did you see the otter”? Well thank’s very much they have both gone. It is something like that or like yes there’s a black swan down there, or yes we have seen a heron. OK they are not very rare herons, but to see one flying majestically along they are quite nice. The more that it is kept and maintained the more wildlife will use it. In the woods hanging around we get the old quackers flying about. Luckily we don’t get Canada’s. I don’t mind Canada’s they serve up quite nicely with a bit of orange sauce. That’s about the only thing about Canada’s I can say. Int: Thinking of the River Medway, how natural do you think the river is?

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MrsN: Up this way and towards it’s source very natural. Size is necessity. If it is smaller it is less navigable. Obviously as it gets into Rochester and Maidstone it is being used a lot more as a working waterway so less so. It was obviously evolved by the water use. But as with any river, the Thames is beautiful up near the source, but I wouldn’t say it was beautiful down near Dartford. Quite sluggy. Int: What sort of things do you see as natural about the Medway? MrsN: Well in tribute to those that have been looking after it, great stretches of it are full of nature and are not covered in concrete, miles of walls and keep out notices and outpourings from farms and sewers. A lot of it is a very untouched looking river. But as boats go up and down obviously there is going to be erosion so man needs to stand in to repair the damage that has been done. I think by the bridge they have done a very good job, it has worked very nicely and hats off to the men that have done that. Int: Did you actually see the process. MrsN: Yes the piling. It did seem awfully slow when it was being done, but last summer it was absolutely thick with new growth. Hopefully the brambles aren’t going to take over everything. There weren’t that many stinging nettles but there are some very nice plants over there. Int: Some people say that we have tamed rivers. Do you think that is the case? MrsN: Oh yes certainly some rivers. As I say you can’t really tame the Tweed. Int: Do you think that it matters? Do you think we ought to have natural rivers? MrsN: Well as I say I don’t think there is such a thing as natural rivers. I don’t think there has been such a thing since the Romans came over. Int: Do you think that we could restore a river to a natural condition, or do you think we can’t really do that? MrsN: You can’t do that, you have to restore it to a balance. Int: Some of the other schemes we are studying, they have actually in Devon put the rivers back they have been straightened and deepened and they have tried to restore to some extent the natural condition. MrsN: If they can restore it sensibly, but those rivers have been straightened for one reason or another, either for access for a farm to use it or there’s a road gone around, it’s not just saying well right we will make the river go back on it’s old course you have got to look at all the other things that were there when the river was on its old course. What was being done with it, why it was on that course. It may have been natural for the river to have changed direction. Int: That’s true, rivers do move about. MrsN: They snake around left right and centre. Flood meadows, people don’t want to live

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next to a flood meadow but they are the most natural path of rivers. Look what has happened over in Norfolk. Int: I don’t know how long you have lived here? Have you seen flooding of property? MrsN: No we have only been here for 4-5 years and it was well sorted out before we came down. Many years ago before they got the weirs in there was a flood plane but I believe it was quite an at risk area certainly insurance wise. A couple of years back we had some very heavy rainfall and it was the highest I have ever seen the river. The footpath that comes over the other side to the Pinkham Lock you know how high the bridge is there, the water was over the top of that bridge. I have never seen it so high. We were going around this side for the dog walk and the river was doing quite a rapid speed. Looking away at the top of the bank most of the walk was under water there. But that was the highest I have ever seen it. The people that live nearer to the river which is the mobile homes and a few cottages down Pinkham weren’t flooded, well the homes weren’t flooded, the gardens must have been a bit soggy but the homes were OK. So as I say they have maintained that brilliantly. It was quite interesting to see how wild it could be, it was coming through that weir at the rate of knots, and the way they were controlling it was great. Seeing it come through with that sort of power, if they had put an electricity generating station down there we would never have to pay again. It was that staggering. The dog decided to go for a paddle and I thought that was the last I was going to see of her. Luckily she was a lot younger and a very strong swimmer and she did manage to get back to the bank, but I did have to put the other one on a lead. It was that strong. I have never seen anything like that, the nearest I can put it to is a decent force 10 down in Cornwall. It was quite wild. Int: That’s interesting. Thinking about the kind of work they did and the kind of methods they used down there in the restoration of the bank, how scientific do you think it was? MrsN: I think they probably did their homework They must have gone in deep enough to have worked up that amount of soil in such a short period. How it is going to stand up to any heavy rains remains to be seen. The undergrowth is recovering and putting its roots down so it just remains to be seen. I would say they need to extend it further along. The erosion is due to the fishermen, it’s not the piling methods or anything. They put some piles down so that they can sit by the side of the bank and go to sleep for a few hours, because there are precious little fish coming out of there. That is where the erosion is so they have got to stop that before they spend fortunes putting in pylons and stuff. Yes it does repair, nature will recover remarkably given a change. Int: So did you actually go and see them doing the work down there? MrsN: No I think I kept out of the way. Int: Generally did you feel that they knew what they were doing? MrsN: That will be the day, the British workman knows what he is doing! They were doing what they were told. Int: Thinking of the methods they used, do you think there is much known about those types of methods?

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MrsN: Oh yes I would say they are tried and tested methods. As I say from the results I would say it has worked very well. Dog is whining difficult to understand conversation. Int: Do you think there is scope for using those techniques on other areas of the rivers. MrsN: Yes definitely. Even if it is just 50% of it working it is reclaiming the banks, giving the birds somewhere to go, giving the wildlife something to cling onto yes. As I say it is only counteracting damage that has been done by humans using it. We have to do something otherwise it will become a flood wash and nobody will be able to use it. Int: On the whole would you say you approved of the scheme? MrsN: Of the reclamation by the bridge yes, not what they have done to the weir. Int: Again, about those schemes do you think they were good value for money? MrsN: Oh no, the money they ask for is absolutely ridiculous, was it £100,000 or some ridiculous figure like that. When I was told it I nearly fell over. Int: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add about the works? MrsN: Well it will be interesting to see what happens,if anything does happen. I suppose more with the reclamation work as that will make good footpaths with no problem, but the more we can reclaim the safer it is going to be. Int: You feel that we need more bank stabilisation works further along to MrsN: As I say the fishermen have cut so many trenches down there, nature doesn’t cut steps in a million years and you are talking about a path like that with that sort of slope on it and it is either that or you go onto the undergrowth. By doing that you are just cutting further and further back and there is going to be more and more erosion. More of the same, more reclamation work and shoot the fisherman. I am a fly fisher person and when I have been out for a day fishing you don’t even know I have been there. You don’t know when a fly fisherman has been there you just don’t leave litter. But what these filthy things leave behind. They will discard reels of fishing line and the animals are getting caught up. Int: What do you think should be done about paths? You have mentioned the paths being an important issue? MrsN: If they properly do the reclamation work and infill, the walkers will take care of the paths. If you start putting in, yes it would be nice to have nice paths in an ideal world but you are going to get the kids on bikes and motorbikes and whatever, the more flat and usable it’s going to be made the more it is going to get used for other reasons, so if they just do the bank reclamation that will be OK. We haven’t got any paths going around the back field there, it doesn’t belong to anybody, but the dog walkers have taken it over and we have quite a nice few little paths going around there. It’s only the dog walkers that use it. So give us a bit of ground and the dog walkers will soon make paths out of it.

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Int: Yes, right. MrsN: You walk your own dogs and it’s ingenious how you find your way out, but we have to because no one else wants us. We get chucked off all public ground because of the dogs fouling, but that’s right because of the kids playing, but they could give us somewhere to go. Int: Right well thank you very much unless there’s anything else you would like to add about the river.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 10 Int: So you have lived in East Peckham many years? MrY: Yes. Int: How often do you go down to the river? MrY: Not that often. I haven’t been down there as often as I normally do, obviously because of the weather and what have you. It’s normally in the summer that I go down there. In the winter with a lot of snow down there I take the children there they quite enjoy that. I mainly do fishing, so that’s my main interest down there really. They are doing a lot of work down there at the moment aren’t they so I haven’t been down there at all just lately. MrY: Yes at the local gravel pit just at Pinkhams. Int: Oh right, we well that’s very near by. I don’t know if you remember from the last time we came by that we are focusing on some works that were done on the river between 1993/94 at Branbridges and Oak Weir. Oak Weir is a bit further up the Tonbridge Road. MrY: Yes I know where it is. Int: Oh good you are familiar with them both. Thinking about those works, how successful do you think they were? MrY: I think they were very good, with the work they did at Branbridges repairing the banks and that was done very well. Int: What was good about it? MrY: Well the banks were just crumbling away. Every time you had high levels of water at this time of year they were just washing it away. Now it is holding it back, the wildlife is all coming back now and it is good all round. Int: Were you aware before they did the works that they were going to do them? MrY: No I wasn’t. Int: Did you see them while they were going on? MrY: Yes I did. Int: What did you think of the methods they used, the technique? MrY: I didn’t think it was going to work personally. They used, I forget what they call it now, the interwoven stakes and that. I thought it was not going to last but it has stood up well. Very interesting. Int: So when you saw it going in

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MrY: I thought that it was not going to be there much longer but it has stood up well. I was surprised. Int: How about the works at Oak Weir, did you see those when they were going in. MrY: No I didn’t. Int: Do you know what sort of thing they did down there? MrY: Not totally no, because I didn’t actually see what they were doing. Int: Thinking about the works they did at Branbridges, what do you think was the most important benefit that they achieved? MrY: Well basically rebuilding the banks, otherwise people wouldn’t have had the right of way down there, the footpaths would have been lost. The river would have encroached further back and you would have lost access to it. Int: Can you think of any other benefits to other people? MrY: I think the factory units must have benefited from it. They must have been flooding slightly. The river was flooding over wasn’t it at one point over into the industrial estate and I don’t think it does now. It does backfill slightly, there’s a drainage pipe that runs through like an overflow pipe from some lakes but I don’t think it is as bad as it was. Int: You are a fisherman so you have a different perspective. Any benefits to you? MrY: Well yes you were losing the fishing down at Long Mill, the banks weren’t there so you couldn’t get there to fish, but now you can. It’s not a bad spot there. Int: How about down by Oak Weir do you go there at all fishing? MrY: I used to years ago, but I haven’t done for a long time because it belongs to a different club now. It was good up there, as I said to the chap that came around before, when I was a child fishing up there it was good fishing. When the Tonbridge flood barrier went into stop it from flooding over, which it did do, the fishing went downhill. The fish just weren’t there. I don’t know whether that was the cause of it. It seemed that when that happened the fish stopped. I don’t know whether there is pollution getting in there from somewhere else or what. You obviously still catch the fish but not in the quantities you would 15 years ago. Int: So something has happened? MrY: Something has gone on over the past 15 years along there. I don’t know what it is, I am not into that sort of thing but something has happened along there. Maybe the riverbed has changed and the fish have moved on, I don’t know. Int: Do you think it was anything to do with the works at Branbridges? MrY: No I wouldn’t have said that no. If anything that should encourage them back there. Bringing the growth back you have got the banks back and the depth of water and that should

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bring the fish back. Int: What sort of thing do you fish out of the river there? MrY: All types of fish, pike, roach, trout, eels, most species are in there. There are even carp in the river, up along the stretch up to Oak Weir. They are still there they have been there ever since I was a child. I can remember those fish being there and they are still there now. Not in the quantities that they were. That maybe just part of nature I suppose, but it just doesn’t seem right. Int: Perhaps you could say what part you think the river plays in the life of the local community. MrY: Well it’s more for leisure time. People enjoy walking around the river and it’s quite nice up there to take the dog for a walk or the children up there for a walk around. It would be a shame to lose it from the wildlife point of view. Int: What sort of part does the river play in your life? MrY: Just basically leisure time. I often take the children up there or I go fishing, it would be a shame if you couldn’t do that. If the work wasn’t carried out along the banks then I am sure you would lose it. Int: How about in the local landscape, what part do you think it plays in that? MrY: I don’t know really. Int: Do you think that the local use of the river was taken into account when they did the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrY: I would have thought so yes. Int: Do you think it is important that local views should be considered when work is done? MrY: I believe so, it is part of the community so it should be considered. Int: Right. How much, if at all, do you feel that local residents see the river as local property, as part of their area? MrY: I don’t know, people have mixed feelings don’t they? It’s hard to say really. I believe there are quite a few people see it as theirs, but some people are probably just not bothered. Int: How about yourself? How do you feel about the river, how important is it to you and how involved do you feel? MrY: I think it is quite important. It is quite enjoyable to go up there. It would be a shame to lose it or part from it. I can remember from a child I have always enjoyed myself up there. Int: What sort of things did you get up to?

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MrY: All sorts, swimming and all sorts. We used to go up there swimming when we were children. In the holidays we were either up there fishing or we always seemed to be around the river somewhere. Keeping out of trouble. Int: Was that an important part of your childhood? MrY: I believe so yes. Obviously it can be a dangerous place but fortunately I can never recall any accidents up there. It should be a shame to lose it I feel anyway. It is quite nice to walk the children round and take them around the little bits and they ask how did you know that was there. Int: Can you tell me anything more about how local people use the river or how important it is? MrY: Not really. I don’t really discuss it with other people. I don’t know their feelings on it. I see other people up there quite often but the people you tend to see up there are walking or fishing. Int: Thinking back to when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you recall there being any consultation or the local people being involved? MrY: I think the local’s were asked I believe. I didn’t hear it at the time I heard later on. I didn’t hear it until the work had actually been carried out. I heard it on the local news one evening, they had a thing on telly about it, down at Branbridges where they had restored the banks. Int: What did they cover? MrY: It was a type of, I can’t think what they called it now, the way they repaired the banks they were saying about that. It was an old method they used and they thought it would be good for the habitat along the banks and the wildlife. That was the first I had heard of it. I had seen them doing some work there but I didn’t really know what was going on. Int: Do you think that local people should be involved or consulted when works like this are being done? MrY: I think so, it would be nice for people to have a chance to give views on things. It would be interesting to know what they were going to do. Int: Do you think there could have been more consultation when the works were done then? MrY: Well that’s probably down to my own fault that I didn’t see anything, so it would be unfair for me to say anything either way really. It was probably down to my ignorance if you like. Int: Can I ask you a general question now. What is your idea of a natural river? What do you think of as a natural river? As a fisherman you probably know. MrY: I like to see places that are overgrown and you know that it hasn’t been disturbed. There again if it is not disturbed as such obviously places have got to be cut back or they will be

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overgrown and you lose it that way. I like to see things a bit like a wilderness and then I know that nothing has been done there. I like the idea of being the first one there. Int: Thinking about natural rivers, what other features do you think indicate a natural river? MrY: I don’t like to see along the banks, they did some work prior to Branbridges behind the locks, they put these steel cages in and put rocks in them to try and hold the banks. To me that didn’t look right, it wasn’t natural. What they have done down at Branbridges with the stakes and the interwoven lattice fence to me that was more natural, from a wildlife point of view all the shrubs and that can grow into that and the birds and whatever can get into it. With those steel cages it doesn’t appeal to me. Int: Thinking about the Medway and around here generally, how natural do you think the Medway is? How does it compare to other rivers? MrY: I don’t think it has been disturbed that much. There are places where work has been done, but the majority of it is quite natural. It looks to me over the years I have been going up there not much has changed really. Int: You can look back quite a long way then can’t you. MrY: I can probably remember back 20 years and it is pretty much the same. The banks have probably come back a bit further but it looks pretty much the same. Int: How does it compare to other rivers? Are there other rivers that you would say look more natural? MrY: No I don’t think so. Int: What do you think about talk of restoring rivers. Other projects that we are involved in the rivers have been straightened and canalised and they are being put back in meanders. MrY: I wouldn’t like to see it straightened. It is natural to see a river winding through open fields and that. If all of a sudden it’s straightened out that looks like a canal. Int: Where that has happened, as with these other schemes, and schemes where they are putting back the meanders, what do you think about that idea. MrY: Once it has been done it may as well be left. It has been disturbed once and doing it again would be worse I think. It shouldn’t have been disturbed that much in the first place. Int: Do you think it would be possible to restore a river to a more natural condition once it has been done? MrY: I wouldn’t have thought so, not once it has been taken that far. You have lost it by then. Any wildlife that was there would have gone. Obviously the wildlife will come back but you have lost the natural state of it if you have introduced different banks and that, maybe made out of concrete which is not natural. To try and then re-introduce it I don’t think you ever would, not totally.

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Int: No. Right. People say that we have tamed our rivers, what do you think? MrY: In a roundabout way yes, but there again it is nice to see the river doing its own thing. As I was saying with the Tonbridge flood barrier. That has tamed the Medway along here. It still rises and you almost get flooding, but I think it is nice to see the river doing its own thing if you like. Int: Do you think that other rivers have been tamed or been controlled? MrY: I would have said so yes. It has to happen because with the flooding what used to happen along Old Road, it used to be millfields down by what was the Queen Bee, it used to flood almost every year down along there. Int: Where’s that exactly? MrY: Pinkham Lane where you come down, which is now Old Road. It used to be Millfields. I believe I have got some pictures somewhere of when it flooded. It was about 1967 or 68 it really flooded badly. My parents lived down there. Something had to be done because obviously the damage it was doing to houses and property Int: Was it flooding inside the house? MrY: Oh yes there was one couple who were totally flooded out every year, the fields were flooded all around and it was just washing straight through the houses. Along millfields when it was that bad it came up the high bank, my mum lives down near the bottom there and it must be a 6 foot difference in level between there and the road and it was up and through the front room window. Int: Gosh, so that’s in your parent’s house is it? MrY: Yes there’s a picture of the boat taking the children from the house. Mrs Lawrence from just along Church Lane, her husband was the headmaster of East Peckham Primary School and she wrote a book a couple of years ago. I can’t remember what they called it. It had bits in there about the village and it had in there about the flood. Int: Mrs Lawrence is it. She still lives in the village does she? MrY: Along Church Lane yes. If you get in touch with the primary school they will tell you where she lives because her husband used to be the headmaster. Int: The book was about the village in general was it? MrY: Yes I can’t remember what she called it now. It had lots about the village but it had this bit in there about the flood and all pictures about what was going on. I believe my mum has some photographs as well. Int: It sounds as though it was coming up quite a way. MrY: Yes it did come straight across the fields. I remember as a child we used to be out playing in about 4 foot deep water. We saw the neighbours coming along in canoes and boats,

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it was quite amusing. Since the barrier went in that has totally stopped that. It has come close to flooding but it doesn’t actually go over. Int: So we were talking about controlling and taming rivers. MrY: Yes I believe that definitely had to be tamed if you like. Int: Do you think that makes the river less natural when it is controlled? MrY: No not really. It hasn’t been totally stopped you can still see it when it is high and there is a swell there. It’s still pretty much the same but it’s not allowed to go the extreme if you like. It has not been totally tamed. Int: Thinking about the restoration works at Branbridges, how scientific do you think they were? Do you think there was a base of scientific knowledge behind that? MrY: I don’t know really. MrY: I was interested with the idea they had there. It was obviously someone who had done this work before because they were saying it was a traditional way of restoring banks to the most natural way. After seeing how it turned out I believe they were right, but at first I was not so sure. Obviously they knew what they were doing. Int: I was going to ask you how much you thought they knew what they were up to? MrY: At first I didn’t think they had much idea, I thought that was never going to stay there, but it has and it has surprised me. Int: On the whole, do you trust the people that have charge of the river to take care of I? How do you feel about the way the river is managed? MrY: From what I have seen it is OK. As I say years ago when they put these steel cages in I thought that was terrible, but since then I haven’t noticed a lot of things that have been done. It’s not until someone says that has been done, but I hadn’t seen it. You don’t want to see where they have been you want it to stay as it was. Int: Are there any ways in which you think things could be done better? How about from the fishing point of view? You have got a particular perspective as a fisherman. Do you think things could be done better? MrY: I don’t know. I still believe that maybe it has been polluted at some time, even though there hasn’t been any dead fish being washed up. Something has gone on to the riverbed or that. Maybe their natural food has been wiped out from a chemical going in and the fish have moved on. Maybe it should be looked at the NRA, they must have a fish doctor there. Actually in the lock there was a, we called it silkweed, I don’t know the actual name of it, it was like a silk weed that used to grow in the locks. You could use that as food for fishing it was a natural food for the fish. Now there are no fish up there to take it. The growth is not as large as it was years ago. Obviously something has to be going on in the water there to stop it. Int: Any other points you would like to make about the river?

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MrY: No. Int: Right. I think we have covered all the points unless there’s anything else you want to add. MrY: Not really, as I said to the chap before it’s mainly the fishing I am interested in up there. It always was a good place to go fishing and it seems a shame that it is slowly dying off. It used to be quite a popular place to see fishermen up there. You still see them now but it’s not as good as it was. Whether that’s the same all the way along the river I don’t know. Int: Do you have a problem with it being a navigation path as well, does that cause problems to fishermen? MrY: I don’t know. Int: There are lot’s of dog walkers. How do you find them? MrY: What do you mean? Int: Are there any problems when you are fishing with the dog walkers? MrY: No there never seems to be. They will sometimes come over and have a chat and ask you how you are getting on and you tell them I have caught nothing as usual. Int: That’s what everyone else says people go fishing down there but I don’t see them catch anything. MrY: I used to, I used to catch an awful lot. I remember filling the keep net full of fish, but now you are lucky to get 3 or 4. That’s the way it goes. Obviously the fish have got to die off at a certain point, but if they are not there something has made them move on. Int: I appreciate you giving me your time.

MEDWAY 11 Int: How long have you lived in East Peckham? MrsP: It must be coming up for 15 years now. We used to live just up the road and we literally moved 100 yards. Int: You have come back and this is your home. Were you born in the Kent area? MrsP: Yes. East Peckham is a very nice area it is a very friendly village. Int: It seems quite a close community. MrsP: Yes I think it is. I think the benefits of having the river are lovely really. Int: How often do you go down there? MrsP: Well in the nicer weather that is always the walk that we tend to do, because it is nice walking from this end down to Yalding and I think that riverbank is kept nicer than the village up at the moment, it is in much better condition. Whether they are working on sections of it I don’t know. I think probably because they can get to car parks through the village, and park and walk this side, not a lot of people know that it is easier to get to the river this way, so I think that is why it is kept nicer. Int: Why because more people go the other way? MrsP: Well unless you know that you can go down the little road opposite here and then go through a forest area, you go through gravel pits and you go through the works and over the railway bridge, but not a lot of outsiders know that area and so it keeps a lot nicer because it doesn’t get the rubbish. Int: Not so many people going there and dumping things. That’s the way you go is it? MrsP: Yes that’s the way I always go yes. If I walk back up to the village that brings you, do you know if you go up through this road you come to the bridges. The public footpath comes out on the left hand side of the river through Arnolds works. If you are feeling very energetic you can cross the road, carry on the footpath that goes up into the centre of the village and up to the locks that are now being worked on. It is quite a pleasant walk if you are a keen walker, you can walk a good 4 miles without coming back onto the main area. Int: Is that the main benefit you feel from the river? MrsP: Yes I don’t use it otherwise. I am not a boating person. I do love walking by the side of the river.

Int: Do you go there on your own? MrsP: No I never go there on my own. I very seldom walk on my own. If I do I always keep to the road that takes you into the village. I don’t think its wise these days to take yourself off anywhere on your own. When I had the dogs I used to go further afield because you always have the dogs for a bit of protection, but no I wouldn’t walk on my own outside of the village. It’s sad really. MrsP: It’s surprising what safety you have with an animal with you. Int: When we last came we asked you about the works that were done on the river, not the works that are currently going on but the works that they did at Branbridges and at Oak Weir to restore the Bank. Do you recall those? Were you aware of them going on at the time? MrsP: Yes. They have done quite a bit to the banks all the way down that section really. Int: There is a little bit just by the Branbridges bridge where they did a section of bank restoration work. Were you aware of that bit when they did it? MrsP: That’s on the right hand side going up towards the locks would it? Int: It is going up to the Sluice Lock. MrsP: They do quite a bit up there I notice. They also put shingle down on the path as well, which was rather nice. That all got walked in with all the mud, but it started to slope down towards the river. In sections they did build all that up and you felt much safer when the ground was a little bit mucky. I think the fishermen tend to cause quite a lot of damage with their seats and what have you. They get out on these little flat pieces. I think they keep the river in quite good condition really. Int: How about the piece at Oak Weir. Do you ever walk along there from Oak Weir. I can show you on my map just to remind you where that bit is. MrsP: Is it the Iron Bridge? Would it be above that because if it is above that I don’t know much about it. Int: Well it’s the next lock along from the sluice lock. There we are. Now here is East Peckham and there’s Branbridges. You go along the river and there’s sluice lock, that’s Snoll Hatch there and this is a little island you can walk across. Oak Weir is down here. MrsP: No I don’t know that. I have never been that way. I only know one bridge up there. Int: This is the Tonbridge Road and Little Mill. MrsP: That’s right that’s the canal and that is the stream that runs through. I don’t know that

area at all. There’s a big iron bridge that goes across. Int: I think that is probably there isn’t it. MrsP: I think it must be. Int: I have walked all of this area but I can’t remember because it was a little while back. Well this is beyond the Little Mill access. MrsP: No I don’t know up that area I must say. I have only been up as far as what they call the Iron Bridge. Int: Yes that’s probably where you turn around. Thinking about the works that you are familiar with near Branbridges, where they did bank restoration work there, how successful do you think that was? MrsP: Well I don’t know what you mean by that because I don’t know what they were actually aiming at. Were they just aiming to keep the riverbanks up or was there some sort of scheme going on? Int: Well it is really how successful in whatever terms you would think of it. Your criteria. MrsP: I just think to see that the riverbank is being kept up, so that everything is not being washed away, trees and that sort of thing. I did notice that they have done the little ponds that lay behind Branbridges. It looks an awful mess up there anyway at this time of year, but in the summer that looks quite nice because it has been left in a natural state. People do enjoy that area. You see people coming from the town, they camp there. Sometimes it is a bit naughty because they leave their rubbish, but in general it isn’t too bad at all. Int: The work they did at Branbridges, how successful do you think they were? MrsP: In the bridge area do you mean, in rebuilding the bridge? Int: Well not rebuilding the bridge, but the works they did on the banks. MrsP: Branbridges up to the lock gates is tidier from over the road, when you come into Branbridges yard, I did notice that, I don’t know whether it has been bought by different people, but where the footpath came up by the side of their property it used to be quite nice, but it was pretty disgusting with their rubbish last time I went up there. I did think that had been bought out by different people. I do know one of the managers had retired and whether his influence had kept the area tidier than it is now I don’t know. I did notice that side was pretty grotty. Then a little further down there is the bridge of the new bypass. That is in a mess but it will be all nicely planted up later. I think maybe this might be a little bit early to give too much of a critical opinion on that because maybe it will all be tidied up when that is finished. It can’t all be done at once. This time of year we have had such a high river that it has washed so much rubbish, plastic, paper and everything, that clings to all the trees. In general it looks quite pretty

up there. Int: Do you recall when they did the works at Branbridges they used willow and different kind of stakes, particularly they used willow. Did you notice the kind of materials they used at the time? MrsP: No I just noticed that it was all done with the mesh and the rocks and it appeared to keep everything tidy, but I didn’t actually notice what type of stake they did. Was that done for a reason? Do they eventually shoot or something? Int: Yes that is why they use those materials. MrsP: That’s a good idea isn’t it, I would think. Int: Well it’s your opinion I am asking for. MrsP: Yes I think it is because it is making it back into a natural state again. Considering it is quite an industrial area at that section, I must say one side, the right hand side going from this direction, they tend to be a tidier section of warehouse units than they are the other side, as I said just a minute ago. To me it looks as if someone has moved in there and hasn’t quite got the same care in disposing of their rubbish. Int: Thinking about the works, how do you think that other people in the village felt about those works on the river? Do you have any feeling about that? MrsP: I don’t really know. I would think they must have because it is of benefit to the whole area. If the sides are not kept you will get flooding. In general I would have thought that was a good thing. Int: Have you personally experienced flooding in this area or was it before your time? MrsP: No it was before my time. The only thing we experience now is where the pear and apple orchards were taken down, because when we first came these were all orchards, now there’s cattle out there and they tend to pack the soil down so hard that if you get a terrific storm you do get flooding across the field. It just rushes across the gardens and just flows away. That can be quite frightening when you see it because you can’t do anything about it. Int: It steers around the house does it? MrsP: It usually builds up to about 9 inches down at the lowest point there and then it flows out towards the drive and down this way. I am slightly higher than my neighbours and it does flow from this backway down to there. We have had that happen twice. It soon disappears, but when it is so sudden it does make you think. The new people that come in tend to start doing things and I think they don’t realise doing that if we do get a flood the water hasn’t got anywhere to go. My neighbours have built a little wall up and a patio. The water would normally flow right past that area, so that is going to build up. These people next door here

have plans for their garden. I have said just be careful what you do because if we do get a flood across there you could end up coming home and finding the conservatory flooded. He said he will have to talk to me before they do anything. Because I have been here that bit longer I have seen a couple of floods over the years that do make you think before you start digging up earth and putting it somewhere else. You look out there and think that is a lovely open field, but it has got its dangerous points as well. Int: Yes that’s interesting. Thinking about the river and the works that were done there, what were the most important benefits to you of those works, and to other local people do you think? MrsP: Well looking at it from my point of view, I like walking and it is just nice to see that the sides are being tended and the pathways are in a reasonable condition. Also I didn’t know that they were putting in the new lock gates. Obviously that must be a good safety barrier for the future. Things are looking up because you have got the big flood gates at Lye, and now this and I expect Yalding is all connected. Obviously things are being looked at and maintenance is being kept up on them, not waiting until there is a disaster and then doing it. I don’t know a great deal about anything like that, but from my point of view it is just a lovely river. Int: Did you have any expectations of what they were going to do, or any fore knowledge that they were going to do some works when they did that bank restoration work at Branbridges? MrsP: I can’t recall hearing anything about it, although I vaguely remember that they had volunteers helping out. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community here? Do you have any feel for that? MrsP: A big part I think, because it is walked an awful lot. I don’t know people that have got boats or anything, I think that is mostly outside people, but there are an awful lot of villagers that do walk it. In the mornings you can always see regularly, I know of half a dozen people that walk the river with their dogs and take notes on the wildlife. It was nice to see that they also cleaned out, there’s a little inlet river, that’s the first bridge as you go over. It must be this little one here. You walk down a little lane called Pinkhams and that brings you out to the locks. I am sure that must be it. Int: Yes that would be the one that comes down from Pinkhams. MrsP: Yes it joins the main river again on the other side, there’s houses down here. I notice that they have been cleaning that out. I think there is still more work to be done on it. Int: How important do you think the river is to the local landscape and the way it looks around here? MrsP: That’s most important I think, because of the wildlife alone. There are some lovely flowers that you would see only in country lanes. It is very important. There are other areas

that people just walking along the main path never find, but I think the locals tend to go off that main path onto the off shoot paths, because they find some lovely little wild areas in different places. Int: Do you think when they did the work at Branbridges, they took the way local people use the river into account when they were doing those works? MrsP: Well I don’t really know. It has got to be of benefit to everyone if they keep the paths clear. I can’t see that they have done anything people wouldn’t appreciate quite honestly, not to my knowledge anyway. I only know it as a walker, so I don’t know any other details. Probably the councillors know more about that than I would. Int: Right. How much do you think local people have a sense of the river being their local property. Do you think they have a feeling of ownership and pride and attachment to the river? MrsP: Well property wise in this stretch there isn’t an awful lot of property that actually comes down into the river, only the little estate just up the road here. Int: I was really thinking in more general terms, a feeling that the river belongs to them or is part of their world really? MrsP: Well I think a lot of people think it is important to them. Int: In what sort of ways? MrsP: I think there is always the feeling that if you live by the river, the same as anyone who lives by a lovely wood, you feel that it is part of you don’t you. It’s yours. That river is ours, although it flows away, that actual part is our river. Int: Do you personally feel attached to the river? MrsP: Yes I think there are certain parts down this way where the different wild flowers come through, you tend to look and say it may be another week and they will be out. You begin to take notice during the time of year when things are developing. One area has the lovely tall plant with big leaves, that is more that way they tend to grow, but you watch for them. Int: What sort of other flowers are there that you look out for. MrsP: Well the milkmaids and that sort of thing that tend to come up in woodland. It is very pretty on that side of it. Int: Any other ways you feel attached to the river or you feel local people do? MrsP: Well these days it is basically used for pleasure, it isn’t used in any working way that I know of. It has just got to be a pleasure for the whole area I would have thought.

Int: As far as you can recall, were local people involved in the river restoration, or consulted about the bank restoration? MrsP: I don’t know whether that was done by the river authorities. Int: Do you think local people should be consulted? How do you feel about that? MrsP: Yes I think they should because it is as important as us getting our bypass. If you see some ugly thing being put up I think you should have had some say whether it should have been done or not. I did notice that they are extending on the back of the industrials, that’s the first one as you go over the main bridge. I was sad to see that I must say. Int: They are extending it along the river you mean, not out. MrsP: Yes, I don’t know quite why they are doing that. Int: Is that the bit over this side? MrsP: Is that Branbridges Industrial Estate would it. So that would be the bridge. It’s the first industrial unit as you go over the bridge on the right. They have got all new units up there and they are extending, so that means it will go along by the side of the river. Obviously the ground must have belonged to them but I did think it was a shame that they were taking it further out. There isn’t any property that it would actually interfere with but it is just spoiling the side of the river I think. Int: Thinking about the way people make changes to the river and management of the river, do you think the way those things are going to be done on the river are communicated to local people? Do you think that could be improved? MrsP: I do think it would be better yes, because it is strange because while the road works have been going on you get a load of noise, particularly when they were putting the bridge in. There was this continual thumping noise. Everyone thought it was coming from the bridge but it turned out that it was the river, where they were putting in the new gates. To my knowledge very few people knew that work was actually going on. One or two knew and then it did come to light that was what the noise was. Int: How did you get to know? MrsP: I think it was somebody at church discovered that the noise wasn’t coming from the bypass. Int: Had there been any information published? MrsP: Not that I know of. Int: You have got a noticeboard haven’t you?

MrsP: Well it may have been there I don’t look at the noticeboard an awful lot. It may have been. I don’t think it was because I am sure that the people I know would have said about it. Int: So you were just listening and wondering what it was? MrsP: Yes. Int: How does that compare with how they did the bypass? Were you consulted about that? Was there information about that? MrsP: Oh yes. We had a lot of meetings about the bypass and the day it was opened we were told that we could go down to the engineers office and they would show us any plans and explain anything we wanted to know to anybody. They have had schoolchildren there explaining to them in groups. In fact last week they had a coffee morning down there to show how things have developed. That has been excellent. Although we have these problems now we know that at the end of the day it is for our benefit. I think that has been dealt with wonderfully. I think maybe sometimes the river authority do tend to not consult people. But just because I haven’t heard of it doesn’t mean it wasn’t done. Int: Well I don’t know. Can I ask you a general question now. Thinking about rivers, what do you think of as a natural river? What would a natural river be like? What features or what way would you think of a natural river? MrsP: Somewhere way out in the country like you see on Country Ways on television. There are hardly any people use it so very few are getting the benefit only those few people, whereas with this river a lot of people are getting the benefit from it. Int: How natural do you think this river is? MrsP: I think it is quite natural, particularly this stretch. Int: What kind of features make it natural to you? MrsP: I think the surroundings, the woodland and open fields right the way through this stretch. I have been on a boat from Maidstone up and I was very impressed with the natural beauty on that stretch, it hasn’t been spoilt. I would think that the biggest part of this area has not been spoilt. Int: What do you think of as spoiling it? MrsP: Seeing too many boats and all that sort of thing. The section from Teston to Wateringbury is very nice, but as you get nearer there are lots of areas that are spoilt. Int: Spoilt by what?

MrsP: People. The last time I walked up there I saw family people and animals running everywhere and to me that isn’t how it should be. Int: What other features make a river natural in your mind? MrsP: Just to see it as a natural river with the sides being built up, but at the same time being planted back so that it can develop back to its natural state. Int: Any other features that you would say make a river natural? MrsP: Well I think it is nice to see people using it, but I can’t see why fishermen need to fish, but I expect it gives them pleasure so there is something to be had in all ways on the river. Int: How about the boating and the features that you need for boating like locks. Do you think those make a river unnatural? MrsP: I think they are necessary to control it. I think that gives people pleasure to see people using the locks. Int: Do you still think of a river with locks on as a natural river? MrsP: I think so in a way. I mean the river has got to be used so you have got to have those facilities there. I think Pinkham in general is kept very nicely. Int: Right. Do you think that the people who manage rivers have got a different view of what a natural river is like, or isn’t that something you have thought about? MrsP: I don’t really know. Again I don’t know what is expected. From my point of view if it is kept nice and maintained for safety reasons. I think everybody gets a good flood alert warning. Everyone got leaflets about that and information when there was a flood about, so I don’t think they could have done any more in that respect. They told us where to find the sandbags and all that, which we don’t really need down this way but obviously the ones down near the river do need it. In that respect I think things were handled pretty well. Int: Did the river flow over its banks this time? MrsP: No it kept within the Banks, I think at Teston it flooded. It was up very high but I think it stayed within the banks. Int: What do you think of the idea of restoring rivers to a more natural condition, do you think that is something we can do? MrsP: I think they should do because they do silt up and the trees do get overgrown and the brambles do take over, for the general condition of the fish and everything it needs to be handled in a way that they benefit. I don’t think it should be left to run away and not have anything done to it.

Int: Right. Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think about that? Do you think that we have? MrsP: Well I expect we must have done really. They have got to be really because years ago there wasn’t the property around for flooding, so with the amount of property that has been bought around the area they must protect it. Int: When people control or manage rivers, do you think that makes them more or less natural? MrsP: Yes because they have still got the stretches where they don’t do anything, it is only at the point where it needs to be done and flow controls. The pieces in between are kept very natural down this area, I think so anyway. Int: Thinking about the people who manage the river and did the works at Branbridges, do you think what they did was based on scientific knowledge? MrsP: These works that are going on now do you mean? Int: No the ones that were done at Branbridges, the bank restoration work there? MrsP: It was in quite a bad state so I think they needed to do something there otherwise there would have been a lot of flooding had they left it. Int: Did you feel that they had the scientific knowledge to do those works? MrsP: Well I would have thought so. They wouldn’t have been allowed to otherwise. You can’t just say that something needs doing. Int: Yes they were the responsible people that did it. Generally, do you have confidence in the people that manage the river, that they know what they are doing? MrsP: Oh yes definitely whoever they are. Int: You haven’t felt that there is anything that has caused you to feel concerned. MrsP: No, from what I have seen I haven’t got any criticism at all. Int: Thinking about the river in general. You obviously know quite a bit of the local river because you showed me where you go. How much do you know about the river elsewhere? How much have you experienced of it apart from around here? MrsP: Not a lot really. From Maidstone up I have been there and I thought that was very nice. I always feel the river through the Tonbridge area, they have got what they call the angel walkway, I don’t know but I think they are doing something about that. That always looks very

untidy. I always feel as if I want to get in there and pull some of the rubbish out to clean it up. The town centre I think that part isn’t too good. I don’t know why, but it could be made much prettier. Int: Other parts of the river, where it comes from and where it goes to. Have you experienced those? MrsP: Through Tonbridge Park I think that is a nice section. Other than that it’s usually in this area. I am not a person who travels on the river I must say, I only walk along the river. Int: You have mainly walked the sections around here. Do you have any sense of what the river was like in the past and how it has changed? You have been here some years. Looking back before that do you have a sense of how it has changed in this locality? MrsP: Yes it is used far more now than it used to be. Looking back on old photographs of years ago it always looks so much smaller and more like one of these little ambling rivers, but things seem to have opened up over the years. It is more used now. Int: More used by whom? MrsP: Well I think the way things are farmed now makes a difference to how it was years ago. I think hedges were left in years ago which was much nicer. There is a lot of the farmland where it is quite open, which I feel is a shame. It would be nice to have the hedges back in sections of it. Int: Yes has the landscape and land around the river changed since you have been here or before then? MrsP: I don’t think it has changed a lot since I have been here, other than I have noticed it is used more. The land I don’t think has altered. Int: You mentioned the orchards. MrsP: Well what I call the countryside has altered, which I think is a shame to see all the trees taken out. They have put a couple of hedges back in over here now. There were just three fields completely open, but they have put a nice hedge back in now, which I am pleased to see. Int: Thinking about the river, over the year does it change. Is it constant or does it change? MrsP: No it is always changing, just the undergrowth alone. Int: And the river itself ? MrsP: Yes all the shoots are beginning to come up. Everywhere looks that lovely light green. Int: Yes that’s my favourite time too.

MrsP: People say they love the autumn, but I always think the colours are lovely but to see the lovely green after the grey rubbishy winter, I think it is wonderful. Int: Are there any other points you would like to make about the river? MrsP: No I am just pleased to live near the river and to get so much enjoyment out of it. In fact my family were here a couple of weeks ago and they were amazed at the long stretch we could keep on the river before we hit any of the roadways. I think they do what they can with the money that is available. Int: That’s good. I think that’s all the questions. Thank you very much for your time. MrsP: It is very easy to criticise things if you don’t know what is actually going on. All I can say is that I am quite pleased with what is happening down there. Int: That’s good. MrsP: Let’s just hope they keep it up. Int: Lets hope so. Well thank you very much.

MEDWAY 12 Mr T was talking in the background but he was too far away from the microphone so at times it was difficult to hear what he was saying. MrsT: Have you been studying the river for a while? Int: A bit over a year. MrsT: Which other rivers are you doing? Int: The River Cole in Coleshill, Oxfordshire, on the Oxfordshire, Wiltshire border quite near Swindon, and the other one is the River Skerne in Darlington, way up in County Durham. MrsT: That must have a lot of industry on it that one. Int: Yes it did have. Perhaps to start with you could tell me how long you have lived in East Peckham? MrsT: We have lived here since 1958, so it’s quite a while. We were here when this was a cabbage field. Int: Oh right. You were here before the Leigh Barrier then. MrsT: Yes. Int: Were you here when the river flooded in this area? MrsT: Yes. We were very lucky because over the road the water was level with their windows. It lapped at our front door but didn’t actually come in. It came up the back up onto the porch and where the clothes line is. We were in a sort of island in the centre. We were so very lucky personally. The house was on an island and the water crept in this way and it did with the neighbours as well. We were so lucky. Int: You were in this very house were you? MrsT: Yes. Int: It must just be a little bit higher then than that one. MrsT: Exactly, which you don’t realise, but I think it is amazing to think that it was level with their windows. It just shows you how different it is from one side of the road to the other. I think that’s amazing. The people that have it now have hired the floor since. You used to step down into the house.

MrT: The freezer was floating around because it was empty at the time. I went over and I put my boots on and saw the water flowing about. At the time there was only very little but by the time I came back it was over the top of my boots. Int: Goodness. MrsT: You climbed over the fence at the field up the road and went through the orchards to cut the corner off to get to the dairy. You came back with the milk but you said it has altered here. We just had the children little then. When this house was being built it flooded as well because I can remember that we paid the deposit and it was under way and I remember my father saying it’s flooded down there, he said fancy buying a house down there. When we came down to see it he lent us his waders but by the time we got here we didn’t really need them we just walked around in our boots. It was on the site then it was probably the same wall, we were just very lucky but other people in the village Mr M: If you came along through Hale Street the houses there were under 16 foot of water. MrsT: I remember 5 foot I don’t remember 16 foot. MrT: On the other side. MrsT: Oh I don’t know about the other side of the road but that side of the road was under 5 foot. It’s incredible, you think this village is very flat, but when you do go around there are little pockets that are higher and we were just dead lucky. We didn’t have any electricity but the water still came through the tap. We cooked over the fire. Int: How long was the water up for? MrT: Nearly 5 days. The phones were still working as well. But we couldn’t go out and that was that. MrsT: We were very grateful for the Leigh Barrier, because whenever it rains really hard, like just before Christmas when it was very wet, the ground became waterlogged and you wondered what was going to happen, but you put great faith in that and so far it hasn’t let us down, so it was a really good investment. It’s not only us the people back in Tonbridge suffered terribly when it flooded. We didn’t go in because you couldn’t, but when you look at the photographs you can see. It was in the summer, in September when it happened so it was very good weather too. Int: After it had rained. MrT: It was not long after the air display at Biggin Hill. MrsT: Yes, that’s right we had been up there. It’s amazing how quickly it comes. It just hung about for about 3 weeks I suppose.

MrT: Those people on the corner opened the front door and the water ran all the way through and out the back door. MrsT: That was the house with low floors. It makes all the difference doesn’t it. Also we have a solid floor where they had floorboards. It must have been terrible in some places especially in Tonbridge. Fortunately it is all in the past. MrT: Now it’s the other way round, they can’t get enough water. Int: Do you remember the works that were done on the riverbank to restore the riverbank at Brambridges and Oak Weir. MrsT: Yes that was a beautifully done project. MrT: While they were doing it we had to divert and go through a piece of woodland and back to the river again. MrsT: They laid it out very well for people to walk through. Int: Is that the Oak Weir bit. MrsT: Yes at Oak Weir. The Brambridges one you could bypass it and there is a piece of open ground there which you can walk through quite easily. That was well done there but the people up at Oak Weir they laid all these faggots and that was wonderful to go and see that, the way they had woven it in and out into the stakes in the river to reclaim the riverbank, it was a marvellous job and we still go up there and have a look, because it has now become part of the environment, you really wouldn’t notice unless you knew, and unless the river was very low. It was very good and very well done. It was well signposted and nobody interfered with the notices or anything. They have done work at Oak Weir as well. Put in new gates and those lock gates. That has all been restored up there and it is a lot better. They have done a lot of work here actually now that they have these big project people to help. Int: I was going to ask you how successful you felt those two lots of works were, the works at Brambridges and at Oak Weir? MrsT: I should say it was very successful. It has definitely enhanced that area because as well as building it up, they have now put a sort of gravel path at the top and that is really integrating too, the little plants are growing over and it looks much more part of it. You can see the work that they have done which was very good. MrT: I suppose at Pinkhams they must be nearly finished now. Int: The notice there says it should be finished in January, but it doesn’t look as if they have quite got there. MrsT: Well I think they have probably found problems there. I am not surprised it is a Victorian

wall I believe. Obviously they are going to find things that they didn’t expect. Int: The work at Brambridges MrT: That was the bridge was it? MrsT: Just before the bridge, you know where the open space is as you go up the path towards the road, and where Arnolds was opposite, they reclaimed that piece. They did put a diversion up and they put fences each side to keep people from going right near the edge. MrT: They sort of built the bank up. MrsT: Yes that’s right. That was good too wasn’t it? MrT: It wasn’t so good. MrsT: No but they did it after that. Some people working in Arnolds yard noticed that one or two of the flagstones were coming adrift and they alerted the authorities and they had to close the road. There was a big diversion around while they reinforced the bridge which was just as well, because after that the lorries have been heavier and heavier. Int: It has probably helped with the bypass project. MrT: That is a very nice bridge they put up over the river for the bypass, it looks very elegant. Int: I haven’t seen that yet. MrT: We walked around last Friday. We did a circular walk, followed the river along towards Yalding but before you get there you go over the old block, but the walk was quite good. What was very bad about the new bypass is that they have got the most diabolical bridge for foot passengers. I have never seen anything so crude. MrsT: Over the railway. MrT: No it’s over the road. They have put a footbridge because they have got to close the path, they put a footbridge in and it looks very ugly. If people had a pushchair or a wheelchair they wouldn’t be able to get across because it is all steps. MrsT: It’s a shame because they could have had a spiral one where you can push up and just come down again. It is going to be very restricting. It’s just a pity because it is a wasted opportunity and it is going to make it awkward for lots of people. MrT: Yet they have got the cheek to put up circular route. MrsT: Yes Tonbridge circular walk. It won’t be any more unfortunately. It’s people’s families I feel sorry for.

MrT: It would have been better possibly for them to have done an underpass, but then I suppose you are looking at flooding. MrsT: I think they could have perhaps put a spiral one in but then you don’t know what parameters they are working with. That would have maybe taken more land and perhaps they haven’t got the land. MrT: It is so crude as a bridge, but the main bridge over the Medway is quite elegant. The only thing is the brickwork lends itself to those yobs that come along with spray cans and spread graffiti all over the place. MrsT: You are going to get that anyway unfortunately. They can’t provide for everyone. Perhaps they will put that spray on that rejects graffiti, maybe they will do that. Let’s hope so anyway. Int: How much do you go down to the river? MrsT: I should say about once every three weeks or so. Int: Which sort of bits do you go to visit? Which walkway. MrsT: Well we go down the public footpath here and we either turn left or right. MrT: We have done the walk to Tonbridge. MrsT: Yes and we have done it back. From this way we go to Yalding and sometimes onto Waterinbury or sometimes we go to Teston, there’s a picnic site there and you can park there if you go by car, or you can go on the bus and then walk from there. You can walk out towards East Farleigh back to Wateringbury and round. It’s pretty local really. We haven’t done other parts further up towards Rochester have we? MrT: There are so many walks to do. MrsT: I don’t know really why but we just haven’t. We should. We met some people last Friday that had walked from Yalding down towards East Peckham and they often walk along the river by the sound of it, so that would have been really interesting. I think that the book they have brought out is excellent. I think that encourages people to come. If we have visitors we try to get them down there. That’s why we went last Friday. They appreciate it very much. It is very peaceful down there. I think when they have events at Baltry that encourages people. It puts it in front of them. Again we met some people from Charing near Ashford. They were walking along the riverbank and were saying isn’t it lovely along here, we like this we will be coming back again. We have heard from them since and they have come back again. They have walked up so I do think those sorts of things encourage people to come, but we are very grateful for it. It is one of the reasons we came here. MrT: The only criticism along the river is the amount of rubbish about. It is terrible at one time

there was hardly any. MrsT: They do have people that go along. They did ask for litter wardens and we did volunteer to go. I think people are more litter conscious today and people do take it home more than they used to. Int: Thinking again about those works at Oak Weir and Branbridges, any other ways in which you think they were beneficial, or ways you would judge them to be a success? MrsT: Int: Before the projects were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir had you any expectations about them, did you know about them beforehand? MrsT: No, nothing until we saw the notice up, particularly at Pinkhams there. We really didn’t know it was going to take place. After it started I just happened to hear and article on Radio Kent about three weeks ago, I switched on the radio and there was an article about it. I thought that was marvellous because again it alerted lots of people to the fact that it was here. Int: That was about the Pinkhams works was it? MrsT: Yes, the Oak Weir one which was quite a while ago we just discovered that by walking along. MrT: The lock gates are massive and obviously it is hard to get logs of that sort in this country, it is pretty rare, so they have to come from abroad. MrsT: They just laid there beside the river. Nothing interfered with them when you look back, but they did some lovely work up there, diverting it all. They came down that path at Stilstead to do the work and laid themselves out an area to work, so it didn’t encroach on anyone else’s. It didn’t keep churning up bits of land or whatever to park their vehicles. I thought they were very good there and you wouldn’t have known it was going on, which was good. We had a little diversion there. You could hear it at Pinkhams. The one at Oak Weir was carried out very carefully and they laid a diversion out there for people to walk along. It wasn’t shut off from those people that wanted to use it, which was very good really considering the work they did. It must be beneficial for the river users, like people with boats. MrT: The other way towards Edenbridge but not terribly far. MrsT: It’s a different project. This one is from Tonbridge to Rochester. It’s quite a distance. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community, do you have any sense about that? MrsT: It must be a sort of attraction for people to come to the area I should think, when they think of moving to come here. That must be part of the attraction because it is constant. No-one is going to interfere with it and take it away. I should think it is a great attraction and it is used for people to

take their children and look at the wildlife and enjoy the peace and quiet. It is somewhere to take their visitors to enjoy and again lots of people if they have a boat it would be idea. It just improves the atmosphere because it is water and trees grow along the side. I should think it is a great amenity. If you could move yourself away from the river then it would be a different place. There is a great sense of history down there. There was a big ???? From Branbridges as you probably know where they used to bring iron work from the weald down and ship it from there up to Rochester. It has quite a lot going for it really. I think it would be awful if you moved it away. MrT: As far as Tonbridge it was industrial waterway. MrsT: It would be a very different place if it wasn’t there. It is a great enhancement to the area. Paddock Wood hasn’t got that and it is a different atmosphere there altogether. It would just be such a different area. The river is constant. We gravitate towards the river and if we go out for a walk we incorporate the river into a walk. Int: Do you think that when they were doing the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you think they took into account the way local people use the river? MrsT: Oh I should think so, because they put in the diversions, they put notices up and they told us what they were doing, which was marvellous because you could relate to it and watch it grow from where they started. When you watch it just piling up. It was a reason to go for a walk that way and see how they were getting on. I think they did. MrT: That was one of the first things we did years ago when we came here was to get a map of the river. Int: So I was asking you about the Medway and local people. Do you think local people feel a sense of ownership, that it is their river? MrsT: I hope so. We do see people walking because just here there are two paths, one comes up there and it goes across the front here and then goes down the other side. So you do see people walking, particularly at weekends. Whether they are local or not I don’t know. I hope people appreciate it. MrT: I think there are a lot of people, particularly in these new estates that have popped up, that don’t walk along it. MrsT: Well when we first moved here we both worked in London and we didn’t really take a lot of notice of it. It is only really when you have a domestic existence that you notice it I think. We used to, perhaps even more years ago, see children go off with fishing rods and things down there, or take their bikes. We used to take our children down for a picnic or whatever. Today people are a bit more afraid to let their children go off on their own quite honestly. I suppose that is a drawback really. You do see people come out here and walk off down to the river. Usually when we walk along the river, we meet someone. Even during the week, we do meet someone. We met these people the other day that had walked down from Yalding.

MrT: When we first came here people used to turn up in a coach. They would park right across the drive and the drivers used to get quite abusive. MrsT: Actually a chap came up and got the police notices put along there. People used to come by coach, which was good for the environment because lots of people came together in one vehicle. I think the coach drivers didn’t really realise what they were up to. It was a bit of a nuisance. That seems to have gone. People must come individually now and usually if you go to Tonbridge over Hartlake Bridge there are generally cars parked there. People do use the river. They are either fishing or walking, but you do see people and again at Tonbridge you see people walking along as you go over the new bridge there. I think people do use it. MrT: People do recognise that it is ideal for walking, but equally I would say that in East Peckham there is a great chunk cross the river because they work out of the village and they don’t use the footpaths as much as they could. MrsT: There are people with demands on their time. People are more mobile today and they want to go out and do other things outside of the village, like going swimming or playing tennis, or going to yoga. MrT: If the footpaths were taken away people would miss them and there would be an outcry. MrsT: It is like anything that goes. If you shut the library people would be shouting, but there are some that don’t use it at all. Int: When the restoration was taking place, do you recall any consultation or local people being involved in any way, that’s the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrsT: No I don’t really. There could have been but we just weren’t aware. MrT: There were more consultations over the bypass. MrsT: We were just unaware really. They could have asked people. They may have asked people local to the actual place, but they didn’t come and ask us anything. MrT: I don’t recall any notices or anything. MrsT: No I don’t recall a leaflet or anything coming telling us it was going to take place. We really just discovered it by walking along the riverbank, as I remember. Int: Do you think local people should have been consulted? MrsT: Well it didn’t directly interfere with their lives did it. Because they laid out these diversions it didn’t really impinge upon their use of the river, in my estimation anyway. You could still walk along, you weren’t stopped. You didn’t go so far and then you couldn’t walk, you were able to continue walking because of the diversions which they had set up. So I don’t really see that it impinged on anyone. The people that should have known were the people hiring out board at

Yalding, but then they probably did know about it, they must have received some sort of notification. Int: Yes obviously people couldn’t come through Oak Weir while it was drained down. MrsT: Exactly. They must have known. Perhaps if they had seen that you had a boat in the front garden they might have put a leaflet through the door or something, but I don’t really think it was necessary. Whether they let people know about the work that is going on at Pinkham, they soon heard about it poor souls. It was pretty horrendous some days. Generally it stopped around 5 pm because it was dark, but some nights it went on a bit. I felt very sorry for people then that lived nearby. They didn’t really need to hear about it because they heard it. Fortunately it is finite it doesn’t go on forever and they can probably cope with it for a while, unless anybody was ill. Int: Can I ask you a general question, which is about what your conception of a natural river is? What do you think of when you think of a natural river? MrsT: Well one that hasn't lots of development along it with walls and landing spaces and discharge points I suppose really. MrT: The only discharge point we know of. MrsT: That’s into the Bourne isn’t, which is a tributary of the Medway. One that flows naturally and has fish in it hopefully and other little creatures, where there is not too much development alongside the riverbank. Where trees and bushes can grow and people have access, public access is very important because if you have development along there it would be nice to walk along there. Of course though the public footpath up here through Arnold and Masons yard is still kept open, you can still walk through no-one challenges you when you walk through, they have taken it on board. Not everyone would like that these days. Perhaps they couldn’t because they might have drains and things along there, which would make it dangerous. I suppose it is really a flowing river, a clean river, and encourages the wildlife with very little development along it. Further up the river there must be industrial development, in Snodland and places like that, there must be. MrT: Well you know as you go along you go past the sewage works. MrsT: Well we haven’t walked along there to actually see it have we? MrT: No. Int: Do you think of this stretch of the Medway as a natural river? MrsT: Well it is isn’t it, apart from the very small development at Arnold & Masons where they have a yard, but then they don’t have any effluent into the river, the only people that do are Brymoors, where you get water that comes out into the River Bourne, which again runs into the River Medway. It still supports the wildlife and you still have public access. It flows. Int: The structures, the locks and other structures relating to the navigation, do you think they

make it more or less natural? Do you think they are part of a natural river? MrsT: Well they are essential really aren’t they for navigation. They are not a great encroachment on the environment I don’t think really. They take up very little space and they encourage use of it. MrT: This end of it has done an awful lot of good. I think it has cut off any movement towards Edenbridge. MrsT: You can’t have the benefit without having the lock. That’s the way it is constructed, and it would defeat the object. It is beneficial to many people and it is still navigable up to Tonbridge so people can come with their pleasure boats from Rochester down to Tonbridge and then back again, so it’s quite reasonable really. You have to have the locks for people to keep going. Int: Nowadays we think about restoring rivers, like a couple of other schemes we have where they have put back meanders and taken down concrete walls, and here where the works were done using natural materials and traditional techniques. Do you think that we can restore rivers to a more natural condition? Do you think we can restore nature as it were? MrsT: Well that’s a good thing because it is a very small scheme, and it must have taken a lot of expertise there. They must have put in quite a lot of money into it. Could they afford always to do that everywhere? MrT: Of course with the management of the river it has kept was away from the houses. It wasn’t such a good place to live because of the flooding and that. Int: When did it change its location in the village? MrsT: It started in the valley here and then people went up the hill, that’s when they built the church, and then they realised I suppose that the water drained away and they came down again. They were able to live all right again, it was much more fertile down here. That’s a Saxon church up there. I suppose they settled down here and started growing hops and everything else. They realised it wasn’t horrible after all. MrT: What was interesting is the number of shells you pick up along the river. MrsT: They bring ballast in, like the lot we saw last week, that is not naturally occurring that was brought in ballast. MrT: There were quite a lot of shells after they had been dredging, and you saw the spoil along the bank. Many years ago that used to flood over I suppose. Int: Do you think the river has changed much over the time that you have been here? MrsT: It has widened definitely through erosion. It used to be more narrow. MrT: Just down there near what used to be the Wagon Bridge there used to be a pond and we used

to go swimming. MrsT: It is definitely muddier in our estimation. MrT: The wider it gets the more it takes the banks down and increases the risk of flooding. When it does flood it spreads over quite a vast area. MrsT: I don’t think there are so many birds down there either. You don’t hear the birds down there as much. It is definitely muddier, less birds. Of course there are more people walking down there now probably which tends to frighten the birds away. Int: Do you think of the river as changing round the year, or do you notice changes over the year with the seasons. MrT: You notice it when the water level drops. MrsT: Yes we notice the changes in the water level. Obviously you get lots of leaves in the Autumn. There is a change of use, there are not so many boats and not so many people walking along. The wildlife has obviously left when it gets cold. It does change really. It is always interesting. Int: Does the flow change a lot or is that because it is regulated? MrsT: It is pretty much the same unless it pours with rain, then it’s different because the water level does rise quite quickly if it does rain hard. MrT: Then we get the bypass and the various locks being used quite a lot and that is noticeable. We haven’t had the rain in the last few years, but of course you get these cycles, it will be back again and then they will be screaming that it is too much. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers, do you think that is the case and what do you think about that? MrT: I would say they were very clever if they had. MrsT: Well what would they mean by taming them? The fact that man has put up a barrier at Leigh, is that what they mean? In some places they have to. MrT: I wouldn’t say it would be a permanent feature. Over the years, if you are taking the long term effect, then in 50 years from now it would be quite different. They will be rushing around trying to build the banks up again. MrsT: They have had to take certain measures to protect the development in the area near to the river. Without the Lye Barrier lots more houses and factories would be very vulnerable to flooding. They have had to do some works. The work they have carried out are for the general good in the estimation of the people in charge at that time. They don’t do things that are

detrimental, they can’t do. MrT: They still get flooding further up beyond the barrier where it cuts across from Lye and they have got gates to shut the road off. It does flood from time to time, although obviously it hasn’t done so in recent memory, it must be I suppose 10 years ago of the last flooding, that we know of. Int: Do you feel that controlling the river makes it less natural? MrsT: Well I suppose it is in essence but it is really for the general good, because of the development that has taken place. MrT: What is interesting to me is with the river bending there is quite a good flow and you get the swirl of the water against the banks and that causes landslide. MrsT: That’s just natural scouring isn’t it. MrT: If it wears it away too much then you have a problem. MrsT: Well that’s why they did that reinforcement job up near Oak Weir. It was lovely to have something done so local. It was lovely to discover it. We were so thrilled when we discovered it. When you saw it you thought my goodness somebody is actually doing something about it. When we realised that they were using natural materials, all these faggots, we were absolutely thrilled about it. We saw them on the riverbank already wound up ready to go. It was lovely to see how they had woven it. People had worked very hard obviously to find something that was natural and that was geared to the flow of the river, rather than reinforcing it with some sort of stonejob or whatever. That was rather good. It is interesting that stone and block which was used is still being left there. No-one has tried to pretty it up. It is not totally pretty but at least you are aware of the fact that they had tried to control the river over the years. Years ago they tried and it just didn’t work in that place I suppose, or it didn’t do enough and that is why they moved the operation further down. It is interesting just to see the history of it I feel, that’s speaking very locally of course. We would really like to walk up to some other parts of it to compare because at this moment we can’t really. It is all very local. MrT: What is good is that they have now completed quite a chunk of the footpath beyond Yalding. At one stage to walk along that stretch you were cutting through people’s fields or muddy paths, there was no real recognised footpath there, but there is now. Int: When they did the works at Oak Weir and Branbridges, did you feel that they had the expertise to do that work? Did you feel confident? MrsT: Yes, that they had got the right people for the job, yes. Particularly up there at Oak Weir which we watched much more closely. The one at Branbridges we didn’t really look at much, because we generally go more that way. MrT: It’s the same at Pinkham, we would like to have been able to watch more of that but it has been so muddy and they have closed the footpath off up there. You can get to it by going into the

village and then down. MrsT: It was interesting to see the natural work I thought. MrT: We have had woodpeckers along that stretch. MrsT: We have never seen one but we have heard them. We have had kingfishers and martins, but we haven’t been lucky enough to see them. I don’t know if the birds like it. MrT: That might be to do with the riverbank where they have got those gravel pits which do create quite a hubbub. MrsT: It could be yes. MrT: That doesn’t help matters at all as the sound when they are working there does frighten them off. Int: You have mentioned the history of the river, is that something that has interested you? MrsT: Oh yes I think that’s very significant. There are still the old buildings at Branbridges, the old wharf building, they have still kept that. I think that is all part of it, very much so. MrT: It’s like the old barge that was in there. Gradually bits of it have been washed away and it has sunk into the river. MrsT: They might have moved it now with the new development going on. Also the Arnold company had developed the first car there in Branbridges. That’s interesting too. It’s all a reason for someone to come and have a look and see what they think about it. It is like anywhere there is local history and interest wherever you go. It doesn’t matter where you go. Bromley High Street has probably got things in it that are really interesting. Int: Yes if you look hard. MrsT: Exactly, if you really thought about it then it is amazing. In Canterbury for example underneath Boots there is a 13th Century vault which you can go and see if you want to. If you went into Boots to buy a bar of soap you wouldn’t think of that would you. I know Canterbury is historic but you don’t associate it with Boots. Something like that is very interesting. Like in Lenham there is a Saxon grave in the chemist there in the corner of Lenham Square and that is still in existence there. There is history all around us and it is very relevant. It has put East Peckham on the map. Int: Any other comments you would like to make about the river, any other things you would like to mention? MrsT: I think we are just pleased that the Medway River Project has really been started and developed. Originally it was just a footpath, it was just Whitbreads and you walked through there.

They used to do dredging from time to time, but much more interest has been taken in it. The authorities have carried out works which otherwise I don’t think would have been done if this hadn’t been started. There was quite a volunteer force working there. The stiles generally have been repaired that run along there. It has put in on the map and made people more aware of it. It has made a job for someone to write a lovely book. Int: Which lovely book is that? MrsT: That’s the Medway River Project. Int: Oh the book, yes that one. MrsT: That’s pretty interesting for people to do that and winkle out the history of that. It is just beneficial and it brings it to people’s minds and I think lots of people probably enjoy it that otherwise wouldn’t. Again the books are available in bookshops and libraries so they put it in front of people that have come from other parts. Then people start exploring away from the river too. It’s like the people we met. They came from Maidstone and they didn’t know anything about the old church in East Peckham and they were quite interested. It does foster interest in people’s environment. I think that is really what it is. We do tend to take it for granted I’m afraid, but that’s like anything in this world isn’t it. It is there, but I would say that it is probably a magnet for certain people to come here. There are still the wide open spaces around here. It is less settled than Paddock Wood. MrT: Although we have seen it grow since we have been here. MrsT: Yes, but it hasn’t grown to that extent the village really. This is a conservation area so anything that is done this end is scrutinised before it is allowed to go on. It is certainly an amenity and I think we are grateful for what the authorities have done. It has put it on the map and I don’t think they have done anything detrimental to it. MrT: The main thing I would say is that it is confined to a route instead of being allowed to flood all over the place. MrsT: Yes. MrT: If you go down sometimes when the weather is really wet, you think it is not going to be long before it is over the top. That of course is when it erodes a lot. MrsT: Generally the bridges are in good repair. MrT: Yes except one bridge. MrsT: Yes well that was in the flood down there. It is not a very pretty bridge but it is a bridge and you can get across. The one up at Stilsted. MrT: There used to be a white bridge down there which was quite pleasant. Then it got washed

away and they put another bridge up which looks as if they have pinched it from somewhere else. MrsT: It is not very scenic is it, but it has lasted well. MrT: Mind you it is beginning to wear away now. When you look at it you can see it is getting really bad there, and think one end is going to drop into the river. MrsT: Well I haven’t thought that. MrT: There used to be a big pool there, children used to swim in it, but you don’t see that now. MrsT: Yes people did used to swim in it. Int: Where’s that, I’m not sure where you mean. MrsT: That’s just on the path down here, down to the river. Int: That’s the high metal bridge is it? MrT: Yes you look at the foundations, certainly on this side you can see where the Z is it is beginning to wash away. It may last another 40 years but it will happen unless of course they come and replace it completely. MrsT: I suspect they will eventually as the money becomes available and they will do a bit more. MrT: It’s not pretty down there. MrsT: Yes but I suppose basically it is a lot safer as well. MrT: If it drops into the river while you are on it hang on. MrsT: At least they put it back they didn’t just let it go, they did put it back. MrT: It was reinstated. Int: When was that done? MrsT: That was after the flooding in 1968. Int: That was when the old one went was it? MrsT: It was a pretty bridge. MrT: It wasn’t all that long before they put the other one up. MrsT: It wasn’t no. They did quite a good job in that they did reinstate it. They do what they can

I feel sure, but it’s like everyone else their funds are finite and there is lots of riverbank to look after. I think there is 17 miles. So it is quite a long way. They have to stretch the funds and all their expertise. MrT: There are still people complaining in Maidstone about the floods there. MrsT: Yes occasionally. Int: Right, thank you very much for talking to me it has been very interesting.

MRDWAY 13 MrsC: We do go around there quite often but knowing that you were coming today I think we probably looked for things maybe a little bit more than we would have done. Int: Which bit did you go around? MrsC: We went from the locks where they are renewing the weir, Pinkhams, and down to Branbridges, across the main road and then down to the old locks, over through the gravel pit and then back up along the main road. It was far enough. Int: Yes that’s quite a good round. MrsC: It was certainly a lot warmer than you thought it was. It’s amazing, the birds are singing. It’s not like February. Int: Yes it makes you feel a bit odd and disorientated. MrsC: I was saying at the weekend it was very warm. I was out doing the garden. In the past February has had snow. We were snowed in one February, let’s just hope we don’t pay for it in the summer. MrsC: My husband was born nearby and never moved very far away. I was originally from Sussex, but he was born and brought up in the area. Int: Right, you moved. MrsC: A long time ago now. Int: How often do you go down to the river? MrsC: Depending on his work, most mornings, weather permitting. Even then when the weather is sometimes a bit rough we will still put the anoraks on and the wellies and still go. Certainly this time of the year with the weather as it has been we are making the most of it, every opportunity we can go for a walk we do. Int: Obviously keen walkers. MrsC: No not really, I would say more the fact that we both have been very righteous and given up smoking, but we have put on so much weight that we would just be sitting around not burning anything off. We said we have got to do something about this, so as well as dieting we go for good sensible size walks, not just a stroll round but quite a heavy walk. We do crack on and try and burn it off. At least we live somewhere that there are walks and things. Int: Did you walk down to the river as much before you had this diet requirement?

MrsC: We had a little gap in the middle, but yes we did. We had a dog and we used to walk her because she used to love the water anyway and would go straight in. When she became too old and arthritic to go that far then we didn’t tend to go around there very much. Now that we have lost her we can walk further. We ought to get another dog really. If we are really desperate for a dog we borrow next doors. If I was going on my own I would borrow their dog, simply because I don’t think it is quite as safe as it used to be to be on your own. That’s not an excuse to get a dog. Int: Do you recall when they did the works on the river, I think when we came and talked during the survey, we asked you about the works that were done by Branbridges. I don’t know whether you ever go up in the direction of Oak Weir? MrsC: Yes we do. Int: Right, because works were done along there. Do you recall those works? MrsC: No. It is a little bit more difficult now because they have actually closed the river footpath off and they have diverted you right the way around through Whitbreads, so we tend not to go up there too much. I don’t think we have been up there for a while. Int: This was about 1993/94 when they actually did the work. It was finished in 1994 so it was a few years ago. MrsC: No we weren’t aware that they were doing them then. We were aware that the footpath is easier a lot easier to walk along than it used to be a few years ago, so obviously somebody has been up there, but that would have been about the time when we weren’t walking because the dog couldn’t go that far. Now yes we do go that way but we are not fed along the river, we have to go right the way around because they are replacing the weir there. Int: Yes at Oak Weir, the one that they are working on is Pinkhams and Oak Weir is a bit beyond that. The works they did were actually just beyond the lock and weir at Oak Weir, a stretch of that about a third of a kilometre beyond that. Have you walked along there at all? MrsC: No we haven’t done recently. Int: The bit by Branbridges, do you recall where they did the works there by the bridge? MrsC: Yes. Int: Right. Can I ask you how successful do you think those bank restoration works were? MrsC: From a personal point of view I think that the footpath is actually a lot safer now, having shored the bank up. It was deteriorating and there were places where the path was so narrow that you really had to be very careful if it was a bit wet and slippery. The path seems to be wider, the bank is obviously a lot safer. Yes it is definitely an improvement along there.

Int: Any other ways you think those works have been of benefit? MrsC: I am not really too sure. We were talking about this as we were walking along there this morning. I think people who walk along the river would walk along there whatever, whether the improvements had taken place or not. I think people would walk along there in any case. So with the benefits, are there any? You have got to question whether there are actual benefits. As I say, if I had a dog I would walk around there anyway. I want to lose weight, I want some exercise I will walk around there anyway, so whether you clear the path and plant things or whether you don’t, it is only things like making the path safer and shoring up the path that would be of benefit to people walking around there. The fishermen are going to go around there whatever. Int: That’s true. Do you think that it has made the landscape or the appearance of that section different? MrsC: It certainly seems to be different at the moment, but I think that is its winter coat. Things are starting to push through now. The general appearance around there seems to be that the undergrowth and things seem to have thinned out. We are noticing things that we have not seen before. You can see further than the trees. We are really not sure whether that is work that has been carried out or whether nature has had a clear out or what. Int: Is that generally in that area? MrsC: Well I think it’s the whole length of the river. It seems to be that you can see further and I don’t quite know why we are suddenly noticing far more uprooted trees, and they have been cleared away, which has helped your view through the undergrowth and what have you. Not that there is a lot of undergrowth at the moment the winter has killed it back. The overall appearance has changed over the years, there seems to be more space, it is not as overgrown, the footpaths are being cleared far more regularly, so from that point of view it has changed. Int: Is that for the better or worse in your view? MrsC: From a walking point of view it has got to be better. You are not walking into brambles and overhanging trees. If by clearing things it helps to conserve what is there, then it has got to be an improvement. Unless somebody is actually planting something specifically, then I can’t see that there is any benefit to clearing it. It is no longer a natural woodland surrounding the river. Int: Any other things that you think may have been of benefit with the works that have been done at Branbridges and Oak Weir. MrsC: No I think just the fact that it is actually easier to walk. The path is a lot surer underfoot. As far as I am concerned they are the two main things for me. Int: Do you think that there are any other benefits that other people may have found? Those are the sorts of things that you appreciate, but do you think there are other groups who may have found different benefits.

MrsC: Well it certainly makes it easier for walking, so I would imagine that people who maybe walk in groups would find it easier to go that way, whereas they may have found a different place previously. As I said the people who are going to go walking down there would go anyway. Int: That’s a good point. What part if any does the river play in the life of the local community do you think? MrsC: It used to play a lot more than it does now. They used to have a raft race and that has not been supported by local industry and groups for years, so that has stopped, which is a shame because it was a village day out. I think less now than it used to. Int: What other ways was it more of a community thing in the past? MrsC: I have never known it to be a community thing, apart from that once a year when everybody went to the river to throw flour bombs and rotten eggs and things. It was quite nasty at times. Int: What happens in the raft race? MrsC: Well usually businesses, clubs, groups or organisations make a raft out of anything that will float. They dress up accordingly and they arm themselves with water pumps and bags of flour and rotten eggs and what have you. The locals line the banks and bridges or anywhere they can get at the rafts. As they sail past they bombard each other to the raft and back off. It was just a bit of fun. It got to the point when there were only about 4 rafts. When we first moved here 16 years ago, the first raft race you couldn’t see the water for rafts, there must have been 30 or more. It got down to 4 and the organisers called a halt. Int: When did it stop then? MrsC: I think about 4 or 5 years ago. That’s the last one I remember but it might have been before that. It’s a shame because it was good fun. Local people use it for fishing and people come from quite a distance actually to fish along there. Boating as well. The teenagers along here, there are a group of late teens or early 20’s that go canoeing up there quite a bit. Int: Where do they do that from? MrsC: I think they go from Pinkham because there is easy access. They sail towards Oak Lock, or they go again at Pinkham they have got a landing stage with steps down to it so that they can get in underneath the lock and go downstream, or they have got a landing stage above the lock so that you can get in and go up stream. It’s not quite so bad then, otherwise the banks can be a bit steep in places for getting canoes in and out. Int: Any other ways the river is important to the local community do you think? MrsC: I can’t really think of anything else other than that. Int: How about yourself. How important is the river to you?

MrsC: I can’t say desperately important. Yes we do use the footpaths and we do walk quite a bit, but I think to be honest wherever we lived we would walk anyway. The only thing about a river is that it is never the same. It can be in full flood, the water level can drop, there can be boats on there, there can be fishermen, you can walk around there every day and it is never the same. As far as how important, yes I suppose because it gives you a focus and a set path to walk, you can actually go and say we are going to walk from this point to that point and go around in a circle. I suppose it is fairly important but not the end of things. Int: How about the local landscape. How important do you think it is to the local landscape? What part does it play? MrsC: None at all I wouldn’t have thought. The river has been there for millions of years or whatever and so has the local landscape. It is man that is ruining the local landscape by building things around it. Int: Do you think the river is an important feature in the local landscape? MrsC: Well I think it is always a focus, because it was there first, and communities have built up around that. It has got to be considered important. I think this part of the Medway used to be tidal and actually on Branbridges itself there is a building where you can see where the barges would have come up the river and unloaded into the building. It has actually got a crane hook on the outside. All rivers are important because they were the focus of where people built villages and things. So yes it is important to the landscape. Int: Do you think when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir they took into account the way local people use the river? MrsC: No. Nobody asked anyone. There were no circulars sent round, well not that we were aware of. We were totally unaware that any work had been done until we were told last year by the gentleman that came around to do your survey. Other than there were some little stickers on posts, but it hadn’t appeared any different to us at all. Certainly nobody as far as we were aware was consulted over anything. Therefore, if they didn’t consult the local people then they couldn’t have taken their views into consideration when they did anything. Int: What do you think about that? MrsC: Well I think the majority of people would have just said it was a waste of money, because it is very much the minority that use the river. So I think had they been asked they would have just said it would be a waste of money anyway. I am not entirely sure that it wasn’t a waste of money. As I say people who walk around there who use the river are going to use it whether you improve it or not. As far as shoring up the banks are concerned at some point that has to be done. It used to be routine, obviously financial considerations stopped it. I think if the local people had been asked they would have probably said it was a waste of money. Int: Thinking about the local people and the river, how much do you think local people have a

sense of ownership or feel attached to or involved with the river? MrsC: Not at all I don’t think, other than the minority that use it. Int: Why do you think that is? MrsC: I think it boils down to human nature, no time, too busy. It is easier for people to jump in their car and drive somewhere. Fresh air and exercise doesn’t play a large part in most people’s lives these days. I think it is just society generally is moving at too fast a pace for things like that these days. Int: How about you. What part does the river play in your life? Do you feel involved with it or have an interest or attachment? MrsC: No, I honestly don’t. Yes we do walk around there most days, but as I said if it wasn’t there we would find somewhere else to walk. So no there’s no great attachment to it. I like playing pooh sticks off one of the bridges though. I have actually got my son-in-law hooked on going down there. When he comes over now he brings his wellingtons and says are we going down to the river. He was brought up in a town and never had that kind of experience with a river to walk down, so we have to take him for a walk down to the river and play pooh sticks off one of the bridges. It is sad really. Int: Thinking about the works that were done. Do you think that local residents could have been involved or been consulted, or should have been consulted? MrsC: Yes maybe should have been consulted, but I think the general opinion probably would have been one of lack of interest. Int: Right. Perhaps I can ask you a general question about rivers. What do you think of as a natural river? What would a natural river be like in your view? MrsC: Well all rivers are natural unless they have been diverted. Int: Yes, I can’t argue with that. What sort of features are there in a natural river? MrsC: It is a difficult question. Water with a mixture of everything around it, with open fields in some places, with woodland, just to see it going through the countryside without the diversions, without the man made objects. It is really I suppose a minimum amount of man made anything anywhere near it. Int: How about the Medway around here. Do you think of it as a natural river? MrsC: Yes it has not been diverted. Not this end of it anyway. The part we use is natural. There are so many little brooks and streams off the side of it as you go upstream. Yes. Int: What other features of the Medway make it natural for you?

MrsC: I suppose again at the parts we use there is nothing built on it. Having said that the Medway goes through Tonbridge and slices the shops in half. Really the fact that it is just allowed to go and we have built around it. They have bridged the river and the shops have to be each side of it. I suppose mostly because there isn’t too much of that, there isn’t too much building tied to the river. Int: How about the locks and other structures. Do you think that they make the river less natural in your view? MrsC: They do make it less natural, but on the other hand they are a necessity if you are going to have people using boats. They are not going to be able to up weirs. Although they are not natural they have to be there if we want to use the river for recreational facilities. Int: Do they look unnatural to you? MrsC: No I don’t think so. I think they are probably best designed for what they do. At least they are not tall and intrusive. There’s a minimum amount of structural concrete there. Int: What do you think about the idea of restoring rivers to a natural condition? Some of the other rivers we are studying are rivers that were straightened and they have concrete sides. They have broken those out and put back meanders. Do you think about that kind of idea? MrsC: I think it shouldn’t have been done in the first place. Rivers find their own course. Water makes its own way to the coast. I think man was wrong to ever think that they could straighten it. As far as putting it back, I think perhaps it is too late. The damage has been done. You need to knock it all down and let the water find its own way, but it is too late for that, it is not going to now, it is going to take the course. I am in full favour of knocking down concrete constructions that we have put there, and having natural banks and trees around and less concrete. Int: Do you think that we can help restore nature in that way? MrsC: I think we have got to. We can’t keep taking it away. I think we have to try. In this part of the world perhaps it doesn’t seem so important because we haven’t caused that much damage, but there are places where man has taken away nature to such an extent that I think they have got to put it back. Int: The other scheme we are studying is the River Skerne in Darlington and that was a case where it was put in a very straight unnatural looking channel. MrsC: That’s an industrial area though isn’t it. Int: Yes it was going in part through the town. They have put the meanders back where they think they should be. MrsC: Certainly in this area we are in the middle of the country, there isn’t that kind of damage being done to the river. So on first reflection it is not quite so important but yes there are areas

where we shouldn’t have done it and we ought to put back nature where we can. Int: Thinking about the works that were done on the Medway at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you think they made the river more natural? MrsC: No I don’t think they made any difference at all. We are in a natural area anyway it has not been tampered with and it would have gone along quite nicely without anything being done to it. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers and controlled them. What do you think about that idea? MrsC: I suppose in some ways we have. Again I think it is because man is trying to control things. We live our lives at such a pace that everything else has to fit in with us. I think we do tend to tamper with things that we should leave alone. Int: Do you think that our controlling of rivers makes them more or less natural? MrsC: It has got to make them less natural. It has changed their course, putting concrete walls in them. I grew up in Bromley in Greater London and the River Ravensbourne ran through the park. Int: How amazing I know that park, I have actually sat in that park. MrsC: We had a rope dangling from a tree and we used to swing across and fall in frequently. It has all been concreted in now. Int: Is that Queensmead? MrsC: Yes, that is now a concrete river. It is concrete tunnels, concrete bottom, concrete sides. There is no natural river there anymore. Int: You knew it before that scheme. MrsC: Yes. Int: That was in the late 60’s or early 70’s wasn’t it? MrsC: Yes, I didn’t go to secondary school until 1963, so when I went to the Valley Junior School, we used to go through Queensmead to get to and from school, and always on the way home we would swing over the river and fall in. There was one perfectly normal bend, and there was a big shingle bank and it was perfect for hanging this rope above it. That’s where we are going wrong. We shouldn’t be concreting rivers. MrsC: Well it didn’t flood until they concreted it. They started, apparently, to improve the river and we had a big flood. That would have been 1968. Had they left that alone would it have flooded. My parents home was within 2 inches of being under water because of that. The next door neighbour was actually two foot under water. We shouldn’t play about with nature like that, I

don’t think you should. You have to say if they hadn’t started to improve that would that have occurred. Would those people have suffered that damage? It is quite an extensive length of that river that has been concreted. Int: Yes. MrsC: The kids can’t tie ropes on and swing across anymore, or fall in and have to explain to their mothers why they are wet. Int: You did all of that in that park? MrsC: Totally yes. Int: That’s interesting. MrsC: They even tidied the bank up so much. We used to build camps in the bushes and trees. They aren’t there anymore. They have cleared up all the undergrowth and just left trees. They have taken the fences away. The park was actually fenced off when we used to play there, so our parents knew that we were in the park the cars couldn’t get in there. You could play football on the grassed area and there was a fence around it. That has all gone because it is all open now. They don’t always change things for the better. Int: It’s very interesting to meet someone who knew that river before it was changed. MrsC: Yes I can see it as clearly as I am looking at you now. I have many happy memories of getting wet down there. That’s almost 35 years ago. Int: Thinking back to the Medway. With the works that they did on the river, do you think that there is scientific knowledge there to do river restoration works of that kind? Do you think the people who do those works have the knowledge to do them? Do you think it is a scientific process? MrsC: Yes, I suppose areas that haven’t been tampered with they can restore. I think they have the knowledge to restore things but I don’t think anybody has got the power to put back what we have taken away. Int: In what sort of sense? MrsC: Well the physical ability to be able to put back the natural copses, the little wooded areas that surround the river. I think once you take it away nature has got to put it back. I think yes the scientists, or people responsible, have the ability but I don’t think they have the actual physical power to do some of it. I think they have gone beyond that. Int: Do you think the people that know about these things can enable nature to put itself back as it were? Do you think that’s possible? MrsC: Yes I suppose they could. I think they know what they are doing to that extent. It is not

something man can do we have to step back and let nature move in. This is why I say you can plant things along the side of the river, you can give nature a helping hand, but ultimately you have got to step back and let nature do it by itself. Int: Having known the Ravensbourne in Queensmead Park, could you see that being restored. Could you envisage that? MrsC: No I don’t see how you can. You have straightened out a river and taken out the meanders. You can take the concrete out of the water, but I couldn’t imagine that anybody could put that back the way I remember it as a child. The shingle bank that was there, I think we have destroyed it. I would be very surprised if we could actually restore things to what they used to be, or even close to it. We have channelled the river now, we have straightened it out and said we want you to go this way, we don’t want you to go there and they have built on it so we can never put things back the way they were, we can only come close to it. If they can come close. Int: What they tried to do is look at old maps or whatever. This is in fact what they thought about doing in Queensmead. They looked to see in other sections where it hadn’t been channelised how it went and looked at old maps to see how it also went. MrsC: Have we built on places where we can’t return the river to? Int: Well you could only do it in short sections because as you say we have built on where it used to go as you say. MrsC: I mean the middle of Queensmead you could probably ask people who remember it. You could probably put that back close. But I think either side of it in built up areas you are not going to be able to. Int: Yes because it goes into a culvert into a tunnel. Well yes you have actually seen that process at first hand. MrsC: I think that is not a smart move on our part, when I say us I mean man generally. I don’t think we should be doing things like that. As I say I don’t think it would have flooded had it been left alone. We have diverted the Medway above the sluice gates. They have got the Lye Barrier above Tonbridge. That has been diverted and I don’t know that diverting things works. If you start trying to fight nature you will lose as sure as fate. Int: How do you feel about the Lye Barrier? MrsC: I think we would have been very wet a few times if it hadn’t been for the Leigh Barrier. I don’t actually remember it but we have been here 16 years and I believe these houses are somewhere around 20 years old. The first winter that the people moved in it flooded and covered the cars. We are up on a little platform and the cars out on the road were under water. Then the barrier was built and we don’t get quite so flooded anymore. There is a drop of water about but nothing like there would have been. So yes that is one very good point for interfering. But then holding the water back floods something. The land behind it gets flooded so the only thing we are doing there is

flooding open land instead of homes. They are still controlling nature and still fighting against it. Ultimately I still think we will lose, it will get its own back on us. Int: Thinking about the river, do you think of it as changing or as something constant? MrsC: The actual river itself is constant. It is there. What changes I think are the things surrounding it but I think they are only superficial. The river itself is there and is constant. How long has the Medway been there? Centuries and centuries, ever since England was formed I should think. Int: How about over the seasons. Do you think the river changes or is it the surroundings? MrsC: No you can see the difference in the river in winter and summer. When it is in flood it has got a very mucky, dirty look to it. Where it has been flooded and again man’s rubbish is all hooked up in trees where the water level is higher. Everything has got a grey tinge to it, whereas once the spring and summer comes it just looks cleaner. It takes on a different face. Yes it does change with the seasons. At the moment it has a sad look to it, all grey. Int: How much of the river do you know? You obviously know the section around here. Do you know it more widely like that towards its source? MrsC: I have absolutely no idea where the source of the Medway is. From Tonbridge down really until it gets out to the estuary, I would say that we know, not very well, but we use it. My parents had a boat moored at Rochester so we have been at that end so we know the estuary end. We have used the river around the Maidstone area a fair bit. Then there are various parts of the river that you drive past on a fairly regular basis, for example going over Teestone on the way to Maidstone you can see the river and it has got a lovely bridge there. You are never very far from it. Although perhaps we don’t know it terribly well, we are aware that it is there. I don’t even know where the source is. Int: It is quite a long way off. MrsC: Yes it has got to be because it is quite big by the time it gets here. Int: How do you think the Medway compares with other rivers that you know of? MrsC: Much the same really I would say. Obviously it is bigger than the Ravensbourne. I think it compares favourably with a lot of rivers, particularly in this part of the world because it has not been too tampered with. It has been left to its own devices. Int: Thinking back over the time you have lived here. Do you think the Medway has changed much? MrsC: Certainly the stretch along here that we use and have used for 16 years has hardly changed at all. There have been improvements made, there are very nice wooden landing stages put in for the boaters. There are little steps put in down the side of the banks for the fishermen to get to slightly

more inaccessible places, a few minor improvements have been made, but overall I don’t think it has changed at all. People do die in there. Int: Has anyone died during the time you have been here? MrsC: Not it was not long before we moved here. It wasn’t a river death. There has been a death over there but that was a child climbed up a pylon next to the river. The actual river death was before we moved in. I think there is actually more undercurrent in the river than children realise and they tend to go swimming in it. It doesn’t matter how much parents nag they have still got to do it. Int: They still go swimming do they? MrsC: Yes. It is actually a lady not too far away that lost a son in there are Pinkham. There are probably less deaths now. There are accidental deaths in this area because maybe the children are more aware generally of danger and it tends to be drummed home. I think further down the river there are lots of suicides simply because it is dangerous so it is easy to throw yourself in and not come up. Int: Where’s that? MrsC: Just past Yalding. There have been over the years a few suicides down there. It is more dangerous than people realise. Int: Any other things you would like to say about the river? MrsC: No I don’t think so. I am quite happy with it. I do enjoy walking down there, simply because each day is different. There are different things going on around you. Like I say I think if it wasn’t there we would find somewhere else to walk. As long as there are open fields because my husband is not very good as being enclosed having been born and brought up in the heart of the country, I don’t think he will ever live in the middle of town. Int: Can you see the river from here? MrsC: No from the back here we have our garden and some allotments. An open field that actually runs to the pub and there is a little link line in the river. As you come down and approach Pinkham Lock there is a left hand turn where there’s a waterfall in the middle of it and then the industrial estate. It comes back out again just over here. So there are two bridges in a loop around.

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MEDWAY 14 ST: Can I ask how long you have lived in the East Peckham area? MrD: Well I have lived here most of my life, but not in this house but other parts of the village. We have been here about 20 years. MrsD: We were originally right up the top of the village. ST: You have seen the river come up a few times have you? MrD: Oh yes. We had it out the front one year. We were out in canoes. We weren’t here when the worst one was in 1968. MrsD: We moved here later. MrD: There was a bad one before that. It was right in the house here then. The one we saw got right to the back door but that was it thank goodness. ST: In 1968 you were living at the top of the village were you? MrsD: Yes, we were really clear, but we couldn’t get out of the village then. MrD: No everywhere we went there was water then. Luckily then we weren’t involved in that. The barrier at Leigh has been the biggest asset. MrsD: Oh yes otherwise we would have had it that year. It was dreadful we stood out the front and it went down the road and then it started coming back. It was flooded right down at Hale Street. We have photos somewhere it. MrD: There was a canoe come up the middle of the road. Yes they were able to paddle up the road. MrsD: As you say it came up to the back door. Those houses or flats that are at the bottom of the garden now weren’t there. MrD: Well they have altered it down here now, I don’t quite know what effect that is going to have. They say half of that wasn’t necessary, but I don’t know. ST: What do you mean the works they are doing? MrD: No when I was very young they put a weir in the river. ST: Oh the sluice weir at Pinkhams. MrD: Yes, it was a double weir. They say that half of it is not necessary now since the Leigh Barrier. I have been down lately because they are working there now, and they have blocked half of it off. There is just one weir there in now and I read they are making a fish ladder or something so they can go upstream, and also canoes can come over. We will just have to see. ST: I think that is what they are doing. How much do you go down

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to the river? MrD: Well I don’t go quite as much now as I used to, but I still go down occasionally. I have a grandson who comes occasionally and he likes to get down there. ST: As you have lived in the village most your life, you must have seen quite a bit of the river? Did you go down there when you were young? MrD: Oh yes when we were young we used to swim in the river. There was a polio scare and that put paid to it because they did believe that it could be carried in the water. We used to use it almost like the seaside in one part down there when I was at school. There was one little place down there that was almost like a little beach and it was quite nice, but after that scare we didn’t bother much. ST: Did you go down there as youngsters for other things, or was it mainly for swimming? MrD: Well even when I was very young it was a regular walk on a Sunday night with mother and father. It was quite a walk for us then because we were right down the end of the village, but we always used to come down and go right around the river and finish up at a pub somewhere with a bag of chips in the summer. So we have always had a little to do with it. ST: Do you recall the works that were done at Branbridges? I don’t know whether you go down towards Oak Weir and Branbridges down by the bridge? MrD: Are you talking about when they did the banks? ST: That’s right, the bank restoration work. MrD: I didn’t think it was much of a thing at the time, I couldn’t really see what they had done, but they must have done something I suppose. ST: It didn’t seem much to you what they had done? MrD: No not really. ST: And what do you think about it since? MrD: Well I suppose it was something that had to be done, because they did reinforce some banks in places, but I didn’t think it was any great improvement or anything. They were planting things in there that they hoped would grow and things like that. I couldn’t see where it had enhanced the river very much. ST: Do you go down that way very often? MrD: Well normally we walk down this way. ST: Down to Pinkhams lock? MrD: Yes and then we either go left and come back over the bridge

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and come around or right and go along to what they call the Wagon Bridge and into Snoll Hatch and back around. When we were young and I used to go with my mother and father we used to go down towards Yalding way and we used to be able to cross the railway there and the river and come back up to the bridges that way. I haven’t been that way for a few years now. I don’t even know if you can do it now. I know you can go right through to Yalding, we used to do that when we were young but I haven’t done that for years. ST: Did you ever see the works that they did at Oak Weir? At the same time as they did the work at Branbridges they also worked on Oak Weir. MrD: I’m not sure which is Oak Weir, is that the one at Golden Green? ST: It might be. I will show you on the map. This is Oak Weir and here we are at Branbridges. That’s the walk around to Snoll Hatch, that’s Little Mill there. MrD: I have done that a few times, but I don’t think I know very much about that one. ST: There is another weir and sluice there and they did some works along here, but you don’t know that bit? MrD: No. ST: So really when you saw what they did at Branbridges, what was your feeling about it? Did you actually see them doing the work there? MrD: Well I saw the equipment they had there, the nets of stone and the wood that they were going to stick in, but I didn’t actually see them doing it. I saw it all ready to go in. As I say I had a job to see what they had done when I went there. ST: Have you seen it recently? Do you know what it looks like now? MrD: Well you can see most of that from the road what they did because it was near that bridge, but if anything I suppose it looks a little bit wilder, but that wasn’t what I would have hoped to see. ST: What would you have liked to see? MrD: Well if it was going to be for the benefit of the people I would have liked to have seen it cleared a little bit so that you can walk along there comfortably and people could have played or something like that. ST: What down by the river or along the banks? MrD: Yes, but if you go around there now it is not what you could call a nice comfortable walk, because it is all rough up and down, and I when my grandson comes I don’t like to go down that way because I don’t think it is a safe place for children because it is quite a drop into the river along that side. The top side of the weir

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the water is more or less up to the top of the bank but on the bottom side there is a drop of 8 foot or so I should think. The banks are so unstable that if they get near the edge they could slip in and knock themselves out before they got to the water. I would have preferred to have seen it smoothed off and grassed. That is only my idea and other people prefer to see it wild. ST: Well it is your view we want to have. Do you think other people have different views? MrD: I am sure they do. People have a lot of different ideas to me, but that’s life. ST: Thinking about those works, what do you think has been the benefit to you or other people of those works? How do you feel? MrD: Well I can’t see that there has been an improvement on that part of it and they must be spending a lot of money there now. I am not so sure whether it is all for the best or not. I think they are mainly thinking of the traffic on the water. I can’t see whether there is going to be any benefit for us. I think it is mainly for navigation. ST: This is speaking of the works they are doing at the moment? MrD: That’s how I see it anyway. ST: The bank works at Branbridges, who do you think were the main people to benefit from those? MrD: I don’t really know. Anybody I suppose that likes to see things go back to the wild. That doesn’t appeal to me that much. I like the countryside, I have always lived in the country and I like the countryside, but I don’t like to see things left to look after themselves, I think they need a little bit of tidying. It doesn’t look what you would call tidy. So I don’t know who benefits from that, the fish I expect. ST: Thinking about the river in general, what part does it play in your life now? MrD: Well now as I say it is only that I go down when my grandson comes. He loves to go down there. I am not in the peak of conditions now so I don’t like to walk too far, but when my grandson comes. MrsD: When he comes he doesn’t give him any rest, he is not granddad he is big dad to the grandchildren. The first one called him big dad and that name has stuck. We have four grandchildren and he is big dad to all of them. You went down there twice last week with them didn’t you. I can’t walk very far. MrD: He has got one of these monty bikes that they do these stunt things on wheelies and jumps and if he can find a piece of rough ground he is fine, he thinks I can follow on but I can’t. MrsD: Well it is fairly quiet where they are, but to go down here by the river he likes walking so that is a good thing really.

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It’s peaceful when he has gone but it is nice to have him. MrD: I like to go down there occasionally now, just to see what it is like. I am interested to see the working. MrsD: We have heard a lot of it with that pile driving going on. ST: Yes it’s quite near here. MrsD: Yes they have worked quite late. It is sometimes dark and they are still going. MrD: I think they are getting near the end now, they are tidying up a bit so that will make it a bit better when that is finished. I don’t think we will ever be able to use it like we used to. ST: What you mean when you went down and swam and used it as a beach. MrD: There is too much pollution now I don’t think you will be able to do it. Well things have got to alter if you do. MrsD: Like I say I come from Surrey and my brother used to go swimming in the Thames. Then there were typhoid fevers and that finished that, but that must be terribly polluted, all the rivers seem to be these days. Years ago they used to go swimming in the rivers, they didn’t have the baths or anything like that. I was too young then because the typhoid fright came up so I was too small to go. MrD: I haven’t seen the new bridge they have put over. ST: The bypass bridge. No I haven’t seen that either. MrD: Will there still be a footpath through there? ST: Yes I think there is a pedestrian bridge. MrsD: Is it just a pedestrian bridge? ST: Yes, but I think there is another bridge as well. MrD: There is a railway bridge over that way as well, but I haven’t been down there much lately so I don’t know. A few years back we used to have a river carnival every year. MrsD: Yes a raft race. We haven’t had one for about 10/15 years. MrsD: They used to come down and go through to Yalding, all the different rafts people had made. They used to give them to the people of the village didn’t they. MrD: When they used to come through the bridges they used to get pounded with bags of flour. MrsD: They had costumes on as well. There used to be about 10 or 12.

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MrD: Yes there was. MrsD: There were oil drums and some dressed up as African warriors and the likes, it was quite a big event. We used to sit in here and we used to see the people all going up to Pinkham and we knew the raft race was on that Sunday. ST: What sort of part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community now. MrD: Personally, I don’t think it plays a great part in most people’s lives now. MrsD: There are quite a few people we see go down fishing. MrD: Yes they are not locals. MrsD: No that’s true. MrD: They come in cars and park along the road to go fishing. In the summertime there are a lot of unsavoury sorts get down there. ST: Oh yes. MrD: They come along with motorbikes and cars and get down there and stay on holiday weekends and sometimes other weekends. They leave a hell of a mess behind, beer cans and the like. MrsD: It’s not all nice. A rough old lot they look. MrD: They are not locals. I don’t know where they come from. ST: Do you think that deters local people from going down there? MrD: Well it probably would deter some, but I suppose it must have some bearing on it. At the time if I had young children I wouldn’t like them being down there, and there are quite a few younger ones that go down there. I wonder what they get up to some of them. I think they only go down there to have a smoke and things like that. MrsD: Did you notice last week when you went down there how that bank was how they have cleaned it up. Last year I came down there. MrD: It is shocking. MrsD: Is it, only it was all up on the side and just left there. There was old iron and all sorts of things. MrD: There were bits sticking out of it. ST: These were things they had taken out of the river was it? MrsD: Yes and they had just left it banked up on the side and it looked must unsightly. That was after they had spent all the money and tidied it up and everything, but that was a complete eyesore.

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ST: Was that down by Pinkhams? MrsD: Yes between Pinkhams and the lock, is that the Mill Street. MrD: Yes, there’s a meadow that goes from there to Pinkham, well there used to be. When I was younger that was a cornfield and now it looks more like a wilderness. I don’t know whether they just seeded themselves or whether they were planted. ST: Was that on the riverbank? MrD: No, when you go down here you come to the Mill Stream and then you have got about 200 yards ST: When you go across the little bridge. MrD: Yes to the weir. As I say that was a cornfield and it was all planted up all nice when we were young. Now it is all sort of overgrown. MrsD: It has seeded itself with all young trees coming up and it is really rough looking there to what it used to be down there. MrD: I suppose it is ideal for people with their dogs. Trouble is some people nowadays are not satisfied with one dog they come marching along with about four. MrsD: It is a bit cleaner than it used to be. In the summer you used to have a stench from there, it was foul on a really hot day. ST: What from the dogs. MrsD: Yes it really was foul on a hot day you could really smell it. I don’t think there are quite so many that go down there now. MrD: Well there is but some of them are a bit more careful now. MrsD: Yes there is a dog box down there now. MrD: It is an ideal place to take your dog though. My grandson used to have a couple of jack russells and we used to look after them sometimes. We would take them down there and they were thrilled to pieces running around. ST: Thinking about the works done at Branbridges when they did the work to restore the bank, do you think they took the way local people use the river into account when they did those works. Do you think they considered that? MrD: Well I’m not sure whether they had the pedestrians in mind or not. I can’t see whether they did or not, because as I have said before I would have liked to see it look a bit tidier. If you were taking young children down there you have got to be very careful because the banks are shocking I think. They always have been poor down there, and as I was saying earlier it is all very well to go back to nature, but I always think that even nature needs a little bit of help to keep it a bit tidy. ST: How much do you think local people have a sense of the river

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being their river, a sense of local ownership of the river? Do you think there is that feeling or attachment to the river? MrD: Well I wouldn’t think so. I have never had that feeling myself. I never thought that it was my river if you like, because for one thing there are lots of parts where you can’t go. I know they have go footpaths for most of the way but there are times when, I’m talking about going the other way now down towards Yalding, for a start off there’s no proper lead in to the path is there? MrsD: Well I don’t know I have never been down that side. MrD: You have. MrsD: I have, well I can’t remember. I was going to say when you come out down at Branbridges there, with all that traffic going past you couldn’t let children come out there. MrD: Mind you that should alter with the bypass, but it still doesn’t alter the fact that when you go into there you are going into sort of a private yard, when you start the footpath. MrsD: Oh yes that is Arnolds. MrD: As I say, I never thought of it as being mine, if anybody wants to do a bit of fishing they have always got to get a licence from somewhere. ST: Do you think local people feel attached to it or involved with the river at all? MrD: I don’t think I have ever known anybody. The only time they do worry about it is when they think it is going to flood. MrsD: That’s about the only time yes. MrD: Other than that I don’t think they are particularly worried. MrD: I don’t suppose so. MrsD: Not in this particular block, I don’t think there are more than 5 or 6 if that go down there. MrD: But it has got to play a part in their life obviously, even if they don’t consider it, because if it is not kept under control they would have trouble. ST: Thinking back to when they did the works at Branbridges, do you recall local people being consulted at all about those works before they took place? Were you aware they were going to take place before they happened? MrD: No the first time I saw the stuff dumped there I couldn’t work out what they were going to do. MrsD: Didn’t we read about it in one of the free papers. MrD: I don’t know but I didn’t hear about it before, because I saw these bundles of wood and I wondered what was going to happen.

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Nobody had said anything to me. MrsD: The lock we read about that in the paper didn’t we, what they were going to do. MrD: Well I knew they were going to do work, but I didn’t know what it was actually about. The first time I knew anything about that was a couple of weeks ago on Radio Kent when they told us what was happening down there. They told us they were making a fish ladder. MrsD: We didn’t know anything about that, yes it was on Radio Kent. MrD: I didn’t think that was what they were aiming at when they started it, I thought it was just to modernise the weir, because the weir has been there since I was 12 or 13. It has been there a long time and I thought they were modernising it. ST: When they did those bank restoration works at Branbridges, do you think local people should have been consulted? How do you feel about that? MrD: I don’t think they would have taken any notice if they had. I don’t think so. I thought it was just part of the river board workings when I saw it, I didn’t think it was anything in particular. I think the river board had always been doing similar things, perhaps not on that scale but that was their aim to keep the river tidy. In my opinion they kept it a lot tidier in those days than they do now. ST: Can I ask you a general question about rivers. What do you think a natural river is like? What is your view of a natural river? MrD: Well my view on a natural river is like you see in Spain, not a lot of us see it like that, I don’t see it like that, but half the year there is nothing there and the other half it is flooded. I think that is more of a natural river to me, but you can’t really call these natural rivers because they were used for transport. That made them industrial, it wasn’t natural was it when they put the locks in. That was used years ago a lot. There is even a wharf down there at Branbridges. ST: Was it used in your time? Have you seen the river being used? MrD: No, but I have heard a lot about it because my father was born in Pinkham and he used to work in the yard by the bridges there at Arnolds. He used to work on the old steam engines. They were the things that were taking the trade away from the river. I think there was still stuff coming along there then. ST: Thinking again about natural rivers, thinking about rivers in England, Wales or Scotland, what would you think of as a natural river within the UK? MrsD: We have never been to Scotland. MrD: Well very picturesque bits with fords. ST: What sort of aspects or features make a river natural in your

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view? MrD: Well if it is natural it is going to be back to the wild, that is obvious, but I don’t particularly want to see it like that. I want to see it managed. I don’t like to see it all overgrown, I like to see it tidy, but that is only my opinion. ST: Well we are interested in your opinion. Do you think there are wild rivers in this country? MrD: Well I suppose there must be but I can’t say that I know of any. I can’t recall any. I know that there are one or two streams that are fairly wild around here. ST: What do you think about the idea of restoring rivers to its natural state? Do you think that is possible or desirable? MrD: I don’t think it is possible on our river. I don’t think it can ever go back to its natural state can it. It’s impossible because you would just have shrubbery. That’s the only way you can say it is natural as far as I can see. ST: How about other rivers in other places, do you think they can be restored? MrD: Personally as I say I would rather see them managed and managed tidily, I don’t want to see them run wild, that’s my opinion. I don’t think they can possibly go back to the wild. I would much rather see some water in the river than a dry river half the time, because it must make a difference to the ground as well. ST: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers, do you think that’s the case? MrD: Oh yes. I think that is the only way. It is far better to tame it and make use of it rather than let it be a nuisance. ST: That’s interesting. Thinking about the restoration works that were done on the river at Branbridges, do you think there would be scientific knowledge to back the work they did there? Do you think there had been knowledge to do that kind of work? How scientific do you think it was? MrD: I didn’t think it was very scientific at all as far as I was concerned. ST: You obviously had your doubts about it. Did you have confidence that they knew what they were doing? MrD: No. ST: How do you feel now that the works have been in for a bit? MrD: Well I have got no better feeling on it at all. ST: Right. MrD: I mean to me what they were doing was only restricting it and I don’t see that is any good. If you are going to do anything you

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have got to manage it to work it properly and make use of all things, like for the convenience of the people as well, and I can’t see that has done any good for us. ST: Right. Thinking about the people who manage the river. Do you have confidence in the kind of things they do? How confident are you that they are managing the rivers for the benefit of local people? MrD: Well I think they have done in the past and I think they were doing a good job. Whether they are still doing the same now I am not so sure, because it has all been altered again. The actual firm that does it, I don’t really know who is doing it at the moment, but I know it was all altered a while back. It was altered again a few years ago and whether they are still doing as good a job as they used to I am not sure. I thought they were doing quite a fair job at one time. ST: That was a few years back was it? How far? MrD: Well until somewhere around 10 years ago or so. They don’t seem to get around to the jobs quite as good as they used to, well as I see it. ST: Right. Thinking about the river. How much of the River Medway do you know? Do you know it up at its source or down where it finishes? How much of it do you know? MrD: I know most of it. I think it begins at Linfield in Surrey because I can remember that my father used to go there working, and I don’t know much about the source, I know where it is but I don’t know much about it. I think I know pretty much the most of it. ST: How have you come across it? MrD: Because I was in the navy and I was at Sheerness for quite a while and we often used to come up the river to Chatham. The rest of it I have had something to do with most of my life around Allington, and we would very often go to Chatham shopping and nearly always go over Aylesford way over the bridge. They have just altered that as well and stopped traffic all together on there. They have got a better bridge up now. It was a bit tricky. ST: Thinking about the river, do you think of it as something changeable or something constant? How do you think about it? MrD: Well I suppose it has got to change sometime. It has got to be changeable, because if you are going to manage it there are times when you have got to tame it and do something good. I suppose it has got to be changed at some time. ST: Over the time that you have known the river, which is a long time because you have lived here all your life, have you seen the river change? MrD: Well I have seen bits and pieces that have changed, but not regularly if you know what I mean. Not over all. I think these barriers and weirs and things that they have put in, which in my

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opinion were good. I can remember when they put that first weir in and everybody was happy when that happened, because it did make a difference to the flooding. That was the main concern at the time. In those days the road was a lot lower here and when these houses were built there was a big ditch along the front there, and there were three bridges from the road to these houses. In the event of a flood, because this road was much lower, and you could not go through there if it was flooded. The road was covered in no time. Certainly these houses had to have a flood escape and they all had a backway that they could get through to come out to Pinkham Path to get out. MrsD: The gate was in between these two houses. It is only just recently that a fence has been put up. MrD: So they built the weir and people were pleased then. It wasn’t a complete success then because they still got floods. That one at Leigh though is definitely improved. MrsD: When that road down the other end was flooded a lorry went tearing through there and they got flooded by the waves. It went through there so fast. MrD: The road has been raised a bit, but when it was low you wouldn’t have got through there at all. MrsD: I can remember the ditch at the front there and it was fenced off. You had to walk through there and there were about three openings where you could get into your own house. It was quite a big ditch. MrD: Yes it was. ST: Do you think of the river as historical? Do you think it is important in the local history? MrD: Well I think it must have been because there must have been a lot of transport through to Tonbridge. The wharfs in Tonbridge were right there on the river and that’s where . MrsD: Yes like the coal merchants and timber merchants. MrD: They were all along there so they must have had a lot of river transport all the way through. It must be historical. It is certainly historical down the Chatham end. All the warships used to come up along Sheerness up to Chatham, so it has definitely got a lot of history there somewhere. ST: How about locally? MrD: Well there must have been even here because they had the wharf there and so there must have been a lifeline in those days years back. ST: Do you think of the Medway as a unique river or do you think it is really like many other rivers? MrD: I don’t really know. As far as I am concerned it is like most

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other rivers. Most rivers that I know of have been used. In the canal days that was right through the country, so I think most of them have all got their history. I think they are quite historical really. I don’t know if other people see them the same. ST: Well its how you see them that we want to hear about. Is there anything else you would like to tell me about what you think about the river or rivers in the locality? MrD: No I don’t think so. Not that I can think of anyway. Of course now they are taking a lot of the water as well for reservoirs now. ST: Yes they are. MrD: They are taking that from somewhere near Yalding, because that is where they have put those pipes in. I don’t know quite where it is coming from but they have put a big new pipeline in somewhere near Yalding. That never seems to be full, but I don’t know why. There must be a lot of wastage from there. We have been there once or twice but never seen it full. That is my idea of managing it the way they have done at Gill Bridge. They have managed it there so that things are nice to look at. You can walk around. ST: What makes it nice to look at? What have they done there? MrD: They have tidied everything up and made things look nice. You have got a nice view. If you go along this side, there’s some woodland along the side there and half of them are dead anyway. There’s nothing to look at. To me down here just anywhere around Pinkham Lock, the outlook is as if you have just come out of the Ark. There are dead trees everywhere. MrsD: The last time we went along there, there were ..as far as you could see. The banks had fallen in. Our grandson was with us and we called him back because it dropped away so quickly down into the river. MrD: That’s what I mean they should have sorted things out. Although they have still got wildlife and things there you could enjoy it. MrsD: It was a decent path you haven’t got to look down where you are walking. We went down and had a look after they had finished it last year, but I haven’t been down there since. MrD: As I say half the trees are dead. They fall down and nobody takes any notice. MrsD: They think it looks more picturesque and more natural. MrD: Well it doesn’t to me it looks as though nobody cares very much. Actually it’s the same with farming as well. I worked on a farm for a number of years and we used to take pride in the orchards and that, making them look really nice in the summer time, but now some of them look shocking. They put weed killer everywhere, where we used to have the trees all mown round and looking nice and tidy. The hedges used to all be cut nicely, now they come along with one of these mechanical things and tear the stuff off.

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ST: They look as though they have been attacked. MrsD: Bits and pieces left all over the sides. MrD: That is what is reminds me of down there, it is as if somebody says we haven’t got any money or time for that. It’s not only the river, there are still places after the hurricane we had where the trees are still laying, they have never been moved. I suppose they say that is going back to nature but I would rather see it look tidy. ST: Right. Well thank you very much both of you. It has been very interesting to talk and very helpful. I appreciate both of you giving your time and I am really sorry to have put you to the trouble of getting a cup of coffee when you aren’t feeling too good.

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MEDWAT 15 Int: Can I ask you whether you visit the river at all. MrsE: We do, not as frequently now because the dog is very old. We always used to and in the summer we take the children down for walks. We don’t get to visit as often as we would like to. In the summer we still walk down there and take the little ones for a walk, but as you see my poor old dog is pretty old now. In fact we went down there last Sunday. Because you said you were coming I thought I would go and have a look, because I hadn’t been since last summer. We did go and have a look. It is a bit of a mess at the moment but then there is a lot of work going on down there. Int: Which bit did you visit? MrsE: We went down to the metal bridge. Int: The Wagon bridge do you mean? MrsE: Yes, they have got huge great poles up the bank where they are obviously going to fill it in and build it back up again, it is a bit untidy but it will get there. Int: Do you recall the works that they did by Branbridges about two years ago when they restored the banks? What did you feel about those works? Did you have any expectations of them at the time? MrsE: I would have thought by now they would have grown over and look more natural, but they don’t, they still look like there’s a metal wire thing filled up with stones. I would have hoped that they would put some dirt down and a bit of grass seed or something and I was a bit disappointed in that I have to say. A lot of the bank looks really nice, but that particular bit there doesn’t look natural. Int: Thinking about the other bit that was restored at the same time, do you know Oak Weir at all? MrsE: That’s further down isn’t it. I’m not really familiar with that bit so much. We walk up towards Paddock Wood way normally, so I am not really familiar with the other end. My son goes down there fishing so he might know it a bit more, but I’m not familiar with it so I couldn’t say. Int: Did you see the works going in at Branbridges when they did that? MrsE: Yes we did. I we saw different bits and pieces go on over the bridge. They seemed all right, they looked as if they were working all right. Int: I was wondering what your reaction to it was? MrsE: They seemed fine, and seemed to be getting on with it all right. It was done quite quickly I thought, what they did was quite quick, sometimes it isn’t. It was fine. Int: How successful do you think it has been now?

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MrsE: It looks all right down at that end. Right by the bridge you are talking about. Yes it looks all right there now. I think so anyway. Of course it has all been altered again with the new road going all through again, so really a lot of that will probably be altered again. Will they touch that bit again do you think? Int: No I don’t think so. MrsE: You think they will leave it. I know they are building an otter set up there, which I think is a lovely idea. Whether anyone will actually use it I don’t know. It is either an otter or beaver set. They are going to incorporate it when they are building the bridge, under the new bridge. Int: That’s the road bridge is it? MrsE: Yes apparently they are hoping to introduce otters back into that part of the river and hope they breed, which will be lovely. Int: Thinking about the works they did at Branbridges, what do you think were the most important benefits to you and to local people? MrsE: Well I think they made the paths safer for us to walk on and we can use the river all year now. You couldn’t before because where the bank was crumbling so badly it was dangerous in the winter, because it was very slippery and muddy and all the plants came over onto the path. It is better now and it seems to keep clearer I think so you can use it. I don’t go down there as much as I used to. We used to go down there all the time when the dogs were young, they used to like to run along there. We don’t get down there so much now, once a month perhaps in the summer and not at all in the winter. The reactions I have got from other people I know say they can go there all year around now because they can walk along there because they have widened the path. As far as that is concerned I can only go by what other people have said, but they seem to think it is better. There is a lot more plant life and I noticed last Sunday, all along there we walked, and I noticed all the new plants. Has that been re-planted or has that just sprung up from natural sources? Int: It’s a kind of mixture. They have stuck in willow stakes, otherwise there hasn’t been any planting. MrsE: There is quite a lot. Maybe it is just because they have moved some of the pathway and cleared some of the weeds that other plants have been able to come through. It looks all very nice. A bit untidy because of the roadworks, but that can’t be helped. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community? MrsE: They use it as a means of exercise for walking their dogs and their children, and I think it is good for taking kids to see the wildlife. I run the local anchor group of the boys brigade, and I take them all along the river in the summer. They all get a letter of the alphabet and they have to find something along the river that is their letter. It makes them aware of insects and flies and birds and weeds. They all have to try to get something different. It’s educational as far as we are concerned, and I know that other companies do it. The Brownies do similar things so do the Beavers, which are the scouts, and so on, so it is educational and exercise. It is somewhere

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relaxing to walk. There is nothing nicer in the evening than to have a walk along the river. It is really nice. Well we have always enjoyed it. That is the main benefit, somewhere to go where it is quiet with no traffic and no telephone and that kind of thing. It is somewhere to go and it gets you out. Int: What part does the river play in the local landscape do you think? MrsE: Well I am sure it plays a big part if only to water the insects and animals and things. I don’t really know, but I think to have water running is beneficial to everyone, especially wildlife. Just in general it is nice. We have got a pond because we like water and that’s all I can think of, it’s just beneficial because it is there if you like. Mainly for wildlife of course. We go along and sometimes there are huge dragonflies flying right across the river and it’s wonderful. We get them out here some days but not like you do up the river. If you sit quietly in the summer you can hear them all. It’s lovely. I think that is the main benefit to the wildlife in our area, which obviously encourages them because without water they don’t survive. Of course all the trees that line the banks needs water. That’s how I feel about it. I am quite a naturalist really, I do like to see the wildlife and I would be really upset if there was none. The wildlife needs places like our local river that they can go to for a bit of sanctitude. I don’t think they are allowed to use pesticides along the bank there. They have got some fields up against the banks and I don’t think they are allowed to spray pesticides. I don’t know where I got that information but I think somebody told me they weren’t allowed to spray pesticides near the river. Is that right? Int: Well they have strips along the river where they have to make arrangements with farmers to do that. MrsE: Well I think they should do that, it’s the life chain if you like. One insect is there for another insect’s benefit and it’s a whole chain of events. You have only got to knock one out and it throws the balance of everything else out. I think it is important not to do that. Int: When the restoration works were done at Branbridges, do you think the way local people use the river was taken into account when they did those works? MrsE: I would imagine it was. I think they would work alongside the general public. I didn’t actually go down there during the works, but they seemed as though they tried to not have too much equipment in the way and what have you, from what we saw when we went by in the car. I think they worked with the general public as much as they could. I think they do in general. I reported some pollution in the river, and we phoned the river authority and told them, because Brymores actually pump a lot of rubbish into the river, but they have got allocated places, nonetheless it must flow. There was all this foam and the water was blue. They came down and checked it and they actually rang me and said it was OK, it wasn’t polluted enough to affect the wildlife. We were quite concerned about it, so I think the river authorities do their bit. If you report it then they do act on it. You try and do your bit and nobody takes any notice and it is not so good, but they did and they took the trouble to ring me up so that was nice. We try to bring out family up to respect the river as well and not throw a lot of rubbish into it like people do. You go to Tonbridge and there are all sorts in the river. You don’t see that down here. Maybe because we are not near the shops. Why do people throw the rubbish in the river. They don’t think further than throwing it. I think they have worked in conjunction with the general public as much as they could. I have great admiration for them actually.

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Int: Do you? MrsE: Yes. Int: Was there any public consultation about the works along the river? MrsE: Not that I am aware of. I didn’t go to any meetings. There could have been that I didn’t know about, but I certainly wasn’t a part of any meetings. Int: Do you think the public should have been consulted? MrsE: Not really, because nobody lives up there and it doesn’t affect anybody directly. If it was at the bottom of their gardens then they may have, but the fact that it was along the riverbank and it was not near anybody, then I don’t think there was any reason to. I have found out recently that the big posts that were banged in, which we all thought was the road works, but apparently it was them up there, but we didn’t know that, so we didn’t upset us because we blamed the roadworks. It did drive us potty for about six weeks, and you could hear it very clearly up here. Personally I was at work all day and it didn’t bother me all that much, but if you were at home all day it would have driven you mad. They didn’t blame the river people because they thought it was the road. Int: So nobody knew. MrsE: Nobody realised it was the river posts until we went down there on Sunday and saw all the big posts, and we said that was what the banging was. I don’t think they should consult people. If it affects anybody directly then yes, but if it doesn’t then there is no point to it really. What is the point of knocking on doors saying we are going to be working on the river do you object, nobody would object because it is to their benefit. Quite honestly I don’t think it is worth it. Int: Do you think that local people feel involved with the river? MrsE: It is part of their lives yes. I am sure that they do. I know I do and I would hate it to be gone. We moved here partly because the river ran close by and we could walk our dogs etc. We have always had a lot of dogs. When we were househunting we looked for somewhere we could exercise our dogs and ourselves. The river has got the trees and is away from the general public and safe, so really I would miss it personally and I am sure other people would. I think it does benefit the community a lot. People react differently and some people might just think it is a nuisance, but I can’t think why because it doesn’t interfere with anybody. It’s not compulsory to go up there. Int: Can I ask you a general question. What do you think of as a natural river? What sort of features are there in a natural river? MrsE: Well our river seems natural. It runs through countryside and I don’t think ours is as natural as they come, it is not man made is it? Int: Well not it is a natural river. MrsE: Like the reservoirs, I don’t like that at all. I know it is necessary, but only one small part

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of it looks natural where the wood is on the left hand side, but our river it is natural wherever you go. I like to see the trees just overhanging and growing wild and the blackberries we go and pick in the summer. Just being able to go along in a natural environment that hasn’t been altered. This is why I asked if they had planted again along there, because it is lovely to see the new saplings coming up of their own rapport. This road they are doing is all very well and is beneficial to the village in the long run I am sure, but at what cost. They have wiped out hundreds of trees that have been there for 200 years or more, I know they are going to plant more trees but it is going to take another 100 years for them to grow, so I was a bit sad about that. I just like the naturalness of it really, and that’s my personal opinion. Int: Do you think the works at Branbridges made the river more or less natural? MrsE: Part and part really. As I say I don’t really care for these, I know they have got to build it up, but they put a kind of netting around full of stones. I think if they had filled it in with gravel and sand or something that would look more natural. Maybe that is something they will think to do in the future, but it has been like that for a couple of years and it has not been done but I suppose they will. The other end looks quite nice, they seem to have achieved it on one end but not quite on the other end. Maybe they are working their way down. Int: You were saying that the Branbridges works were part natural and part not, what was the natural bit? MrsE: Well at this end right by the river they had seemed to finish it off and it is growing around it, and it looks more natural. Down at the other end I don’t think it is as good. We are talking about the main bit where it goes around the bend, have you been down there recently? Int: Yes I have. MrsE: Well it goes around a bit bend and that is nearer this end. You have to go over a couple of bridges. Down that end is where the stones are and that is the bit I am not so keen on. Up the top they have done it properly. I think they are making an effort to make it look nice and when it is finished it will probably look nice. What has been done seems to have benefited the river so far it has saved all the crumbling. I particularly like the bit by the metal bridge which is almost flat with a big sandpit, so the children can actually go right down near the water. They love to go down there and throw stones in there. I think they have tried to make it as nice as they can and it will probably improve it eventually. I think it could probably do with cleaning up a bit I have to be honest, the water is a bit murky, but that is probably just natural. Is there something that they could do? Int: Well it is a silty river so it will look a bit cloudy. It is relatively clean, but they can always be cleaner. MrsE: Well I suppose it is because it is such a big river. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers in Britain, what do you think of that? MrsE: What do you mean tamed them? Int: Well controlled them or managed them.

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MrsE: Well I suppose they have to because we have got locks and things like that, that is part and parcel of how it has got to be. Otherwise there would be no water when there were droughts. I don’t think that is spoiling the river, it is a bit controlled, but necessary controlling. After some of the summers we have had recently over the last few years, we wouldn’t have any water if it weren’t for the locks and the control we have on the river. I don’t think it has spoilt it, it is control, but it is necessary. Int: Thinking about works to restore rivers, in some of the other schemes that we are looking at, they have actually decided to put meanders back in the river that was taken out when it was straightened. Do you think it is possible to restore a river to a more natural condition? MrsE: I am sure it is possible, but I don’t know how probable it is. I suppose it comes down to money. I don’t like man made things. I do like natural things. We do control rivers quite a lot because we decide that is has got to go in that direction and we build the bank up that way so it goes there, but as I said before you have got to control things to a certain degree, because of other things that might happen. We have all the rubbish growing up, things are not controlled as much as they should be and we should have thought about that hundreds of years ago, and we have only just started to worry about it. Int: Do you think that the people who manage the rivers have the scientific knowledge to do that kind of work? MrsE: I really don’t know. If they can go up to space and things then I imagine they probably can, but I haven’t got a clue if I am completely honest. Int: Thinking about the works that were done on the Medway, do you have confidence in the people that are managing the river that they know what they are doing? MrsE: Yes they seem to be doing it in the way it needs to be, like building up the bank where it is badly crumbling, yes I am sure they do. I have confidence in them. Int: Thinking back, you have been here 20 years, has the river changed at all in that time. MrsE: Not really. It has got better, it is cleaner and the path has been made more accessible, there have only been improvements as far as I can see, I don’t think it has got any worse. It hasn’t changed all that much, apart from being a bit easier to walk around and that is only recent. There should be improvement but only when it is necessary. I think it should be left alone to be as natural as possible unless it is dangerous to the general public because it is open to the general public. That’s is an advantage to them to be able to walk along the river. I don’t think it has changed really at all and only for the better but that’s only recently. Int: Over the seasons do you think it has changed? MrsE: No I don’t think it has changed. In the winter it is a bit barren, but it is still a nice walk. In the summer it is absolutely beautiful and in spring when everything is budding it is lovely. It is lovely. But that’s nature’s way. Int: Do you think it is a special river, or do you think it is a fairly typical lowland river? MrsE: Well to me it is special.

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MEDWAY 16 Int: So you were here when they were doing the works. Were you aware that they were going to do works before they started? MrF: We were sent, it wasn’t from you, it was from the Environment Agency, just saying that they were doing some works up at Branbridges, which was the riverbanks. I can’t remember what else it said but it was a big long note saying about all the environmental advantages and such like. I did have a rough idea they were going to start something. Int: So you had some expectations. How about the works at Oak Weir, were you aware of those works? Do you know about Oak Weir. MrF: Remind me. Int: Where are we. Here’s Branbridges. At the same time as they did the Branbridges works, they did some work on Oak Weir way down here. MrF: No I didn’t know about those. Int: You didn’t experience those. MrF: No, but last summer, because I have taken up mountain biking along the riverpath, I did notice where they have put some boarding up where the riverbank was falling into the river, but I couldn’t tell you exactly where that was but it could be about there. Int: I think these are different kinds of works. It isn’t something that you have come across is it? MrF: Not that I can remember Int: Thinking about the works they did at Branbridges, how successful do you think they have been? What’s your view on what they have done there. MrF: In terms of keeping the riverbank I think it is probably very successful. However at the moment it doesn’t look very much, especially this time of the year, but possibly in keeping the riverbank as it was and protecting it from falling into the river it has been a raging success I would say. As for making it look a little bit nicer I would say it has been a bit of a failure. It doesn’t look too good down there at the moment. Int: Why is that. MrF: Well I was down there yesterday, and it just doesn’t look very nice at all. It doesn’t help the fact that it is by an industrial estate, you always tend to look across the river at what’s on the other side, but it just looks a little rough, and not as kept as other parts of the river. As for keeping the footpath as it was then that is probably a success. Int: Any other ways you think it has been a success or not?

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MrF: No not really. Not off the top of my head anyway. Int: Right. For you, what’s the most important benefit of the works that were done there? MrF: For me personally I think just keeping the footpaths, because it is part of the countryside that people like to use. People do like to walk along rivers. Obviously there are environmental implications, I wouldn’t know where to begin, but for people like myself who use the river it is vitally important, because it is access to a part of the countryside that you don’t normally see. Int: Right. What sort of use do you make of the river? MrF: Lots at the moment. Well not particularly at this very moment, but this time of year it is a bit cold, but last summer every night, 7 days a week. As I say I took up mountain biking so I am up there all the time. I probably shouldn’t ride my bike up there actually, but I do. It is a sort of escape really, it is nice to get out into the country. I use it an awful lot at the moment. I went up there yesterday for the first time this year. I wanted to have a look to see what they were doing with the new lock and the flood defences. It was quite interesting. Int: What did you think of that? MrF: Well I can’t detract from the fact that that I thought it was quite funny really, because there is a big board there saying that the work is to be completed by January 1998, and they have only just begun. It should be an improvement. If anything that old lock was an eyesore, it was a horrible piece of work, but anything that saves us from flooding has got to be good. The riverbank yesterday was pretty messy. It has been neglected I think because we have had the works here directly opposite, plus you have the works up there. I noticed further down the lane here, the river goes around like that on the corner, they have actually levelled a lot of the ground and tidied it up and it has made it a bit pleasant down there. It was beginning to look a little bit rough like it is up here at Branbridges. They are working on it and I think perhaps they have missed this bit because they are working on it so much. Int: Maybe something will happen afterwards. You said that you had heard before hand about what they were planning to do, what did you think of the idea when you read about it? MrF: Well I think it is good, just from a conservation point of view really. It ought to be kept. Int: You have already said what part it plays in your life to some extent, but what part does the river play in your life? MrF: Purely just as a leisure facility really. That’s about it. I don’t use it for anything else but perhaps walking or fishing or riding a bike, or generally just strolling up there. Because it is not far from us we just like to walk up there, especially in the summer time. Int: How about other people. How do you think other people in the community use it? MrF: Locally in East Peckham mostly for the same reasons as me. There are lots of fishermen in East Peckham, the Maidstone Anglers use it a lot because they own quite a bit of the Medway with fishing rights, so they are constantly up and down this lane. For local people it is probably just leisure. In the summer you get all the kids up from the village where they are doing the flood defences swimming in it.

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Int: Do they still do that? MrF: Oh yes. We are a bit out of it down here in East Peckham. Things like that don’t scare us country folk. Int: Do you think when they did the works at Branbridges, they took account of the kind of use people make of the river there? MrF: Yes I do definitely. The defences that they have built, you can’t see them, they used like a hedgerow, I can’t remember what it is called now, but it is all overgrown now, so you can’t see the defences they actually put in. They used a lot of stone up there, at the time I thought please don’t leave it like that because it would be horrible, but they have covered it well. I think it is OK. Int: Good. Thinking about the river and local people, how much do you think people feel attached to the river, feel it’s local property and part of their lives? How important do you think it is to local people, and how important is it to you? MrF: This side of the village, they probably dislike it more than they like it because it tends to flood here. Int: Does it still flood up this end? MrF: There was a flood scare the beginning of this year and people were awfully concerned at the time, there was a lot of bad feeling at the time. It doesn’t help the fact that they were working on the flood defences as well. Int: Did you have flood warning? MrF: Yes it went to amber I believe, so everyone was a little concerned. Apparently it has never flooded here where I live, but further down towards the river to Hale Street it does. There are some houses there that actually back onto the river so they were extremely worried. I think mostly people take a bit of pride in the river because it is like an artery running through the village, it runs directly through the centre of the village and I think people use it because it is there. I think they like it. People talk about it a lot. They mention the River Medway. Whenever anything happens like the flood defence they will post it on the board up for people to look at. Being such a small village, you tend to get to know people and you always get the regular people in there so you always have a chat and you notice things like that. Int: So it’s a kind of talking point? MrF: Yes, people don’t have much else to talk about in the village unless it’s about each other, so when somebody decides to come in a build a road up to the lock and the flood defence and everything it is a bit of a talking point, and people want to know what is going on. I don’t know if you have ever been up there? Int: To the lock do you mean?

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MrF: Yes. Int: Yes I have. MrF: Well you will have seen that the footpaths are well trodden, so you can see it is used an awful lot. Int: Right. Thinking back to when they did the works at Branbridges, you mentioned that you had a letter, was there any other consultation? MrF: Not that I can remember. It is such a long time ago now, but I think they just informed us. If I remember rightly, trouble is I am getting confused about what I was sent and what I talked to you about, but there was something about Rochester, the Medway and Rochester conservation or Environmental Agency, introducing the footpaths from almost the beginning to the end of the Medway. That was part of it but I don’t know if that was another letter or associated with the first one, I can’t remember it was such a while ago now, but it was an interesting read but I just can’t remember if there was more than one. Int: Do you think local people could have been more involved or consulted more about those works? MrF: I don’t think we needed to be really. It wasn’t real major works, it didn’t directly affect anybody, so I don’t think we needed to be really. Int: Right. MrF: Maybe it was different for the people that live on the Medway, but for somebody like myself who lives up the road, we didn’t really need any more information. Int: Right. Can I ask you a general question, which is thinking about rivers, how would you define, what is for you a natural river? MrF: Shingle. When I was a kid I used to play in streams, I didn’t live here, I lived in Tonbridge, and I used to play in streams which were tributaries to the Medway. In those days it didn’t matter about swimming in rivers or lakes and things, and I always remember there being shingle in the bottom, as opposed to mud. I quite like a nice footpath so I can use it, but I am not particularly bothered about that, I would prefer it to be overgrown. A really natural river would be clean, not necessarily tidy, preferably a bit untidy. I like to walk down the river and think I am the only person that is walking down it, who has ever walked down it. Just back to nature really, I like it to be untouched as it was. Int: Do you think there are rivers in England that are like that? MrF: Oh yes. Apart from the footpaths along this particular bit that we are talking about and the few locks that we have got, most of it is pretty much like that so it is quite nice. When you go upstream to places like Tonbridge it is almost an inconvenience the way it passes through the town. It is nice here because it is quite rural so it does look quite natural. Int: What are the features of the Medway here that make it natural?

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MrF: Lots and lots of trees. There isn’t any concrete banks, well not that I know of anyway, that get in the way of nature and the shrubbery that grows along there. There’s an awful lot more birdlife down here than there is in Tonbridge. The way the river flows as well. Through Tonbridge it is quite fast, but then obviously the river is more narrow, here it just trundles by at its own nice pace. That’s about it really. Int: Right. Thinking about the works they did at Branbridges, do you think they made the river more or less natural, or didn’t have any effect? MrF: Actually thinking about those particular works, it has probably made it more natural because it is now so overgrown and untidy that it looks untouched, which is quite a feat when you think of the works they carried out there. At the time I thought it would probably never recover because it was a huge mess when they were actually doing the work, but it does look untouched now, so I suppose that’s quite an achievement really. I expect that is the look they wanted. Int: Do you think one can restore rivers to their natural state? MrF: Yes I think so. I don’t see why not. We can do pretty much everything else now. That was obviously a success because I have just contradicted what I said at the beginning about it being a bit untidy, but that’s how I want it, naturally untidy, and I think that is how it would be if it was a river left to its own devices. It wouldn’t necessarily be cut back and fiddled with, it would just be left to get on with its own devices, and that is just what it looks like up there. Int: Interesting. Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think, do you think we have tamed our rivers? MrF: In some cases yes. Like I said before through Tonbridge it has definitely been tamed. It has been sent where we want it to go. We have got the straight line up there as well, we have dug a mile of canal out for it and diverted it, so I think so. With the locks and flood defences, yes definitely. Int: So do you feel that the Medway here is tamed and controlled? MrF: Well it has got to be because we are downstream of al the works. I have seen the river particularly high but I have never seen it in flood. I have seen photographs of the village in East Peckham under 6 feet of water, so it has been tamed. It must be. Int: How do you feel about that? Do you think it is a good thing that we have tamed the river? MrF: It’s a good thing for us living so close to it yes. I don’t really know how it affects the natural progression of a river, so I can’t really say too much about it, but it is a good thing for people who live beside it and with it. You have got to have some control over it or you just couldn’t survive there I suppose. I would say it was a good thing that we can tame it to an extent. Perhaps we shouldn’t take total control of it. It would be nice to have a few more tributaries from it because a lot of them have been closed now, or just not used anymore. I think to a certain extent that would help possible flooding in the future, as opposed to putting in locks and flood defences in.

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Int: Which ones have been closed? MrF: In Tonbridge. Int: Oh right. MrF: I’m sorry to not talk about this particular stretch, but I grew up there so I know the rivers there. Where the sewage works are in Tonbridge there is a tributary there and they are forever closing that to work on the sewage works and there have been whole years when it was not open. I used to fish there when I was a kid because it was particularly good, and you noticed that it just wasn’t worth it after a while because there just wasn’t anything in there. So that affected the balance of the water. Plus being in the industrial part of Tonbridge it was forever being polluted. That used to make me mad. I used to see red over it. There were two or three in Tonbridge through to Chewdley that have been neglected and they needed to work on, where trees have fallen into them and rubbish piling up in there. Perhaps they do need looking after. Int: How much of the river do you know? MrF: From perhaps Yalding up to Leigh pretty well. Int: Beyond up to its source, have you ever been there? MrF: No. Int: How about in the other direction down towards Rochester? MrF: I only know the wide bit at Rochester because I drive over it. I have never actually used the river there. I know from Yalding to Lye pretty well, because I have walked it and fished it as a member of an angling club on it, ridden it within the last 10 years. Int: Are you still a fisherman? MrF: No I have given that up actually. Needs must. I had to stop doing that for a while, I have got other interests now. I have not been fishing for a long time but that is how I know the Leigh side of it. Since we moved here it has been this end of the river and I grew up in Tonbridge. Int: You have known the river, not necessarily here, but the river over a period of the time that you lived in Tonbridge. Over that time has it changed much do you think? MrF It’s hard to say really. Only the way it looks by the works going on I would say, particularly in the build up areas. In the 7 years I have been here I can’t see a change. Perhaps that is good, because I think there probably has been a change but I probably just haven’t seen it. I don’t think it has changed an awful lot. Int: Thinking about the river over the seasons, how does it change over that sort of time do you think? MrF: Well at the moment it is not particularly nice, at this time of year it is not very pleasant at

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all. Beginning of the Spring is probably when it is as one of the best times. Thousands and thousands of bluebells, particularly here at the end of the lane going up to the new road, the woods there are just full of them and it is really attractive. That’s one of my favourite times of year. The summer it’s quite good because obviously the paths are dry and you never see the river adjust height all that much, especially here. Further up you do, you see it up and down all the time, but here they must have the locks pretty well. By Autumn, another one of my favourite times of year when you get all the trees in bloom, and changing colour, especially down here again, it is really attractive and further up by Whitbreads is really attractive as well. That’s another part of the river that looks untouched. That is pretty nice. I don’t like going up there very much in the winter, I like the warmth. I have been spoilt. Int: Do you have a sense of the river having historical interest or importance? MrF: When I was in the first, second and third year of my secondary school, I took a historical interest because of Tonbridge Castle which is built on the Medway and that was about it really. I have not really taken anything else in. Growing up in the area and being fairly local to the area, especially Tonbridge. It was fascinating to see what the old barges did in the photographs in there. When you think of how the river was used years and years ago it must have been a nightmare for traffic. I take an interest like that if I see it, otherwise I don’t go looking for it really. Int: It is something that you are aware of though? MrF: Oh yes. Int: Thinking about the Medway. Do you think it is a special river, or do you think it is fairly typical of many lowland rivers? MrF: No I think it is a special river because it is mine. It is the one I use, it is here and it’s beside me. I don’t use any other river, I wouldn’t go anywhere else to use another river because this one is here. I do consider this to be my river. Because I use it so frequently I would consider it mine, nobody else’s just mine. Int: Going back again to the works that were done at Branbridges, did you feel that there was the scientific knowledge there do to the works? When you saw the works going on did you feel that there was the knowledge there to back up those works? Did you have confidence that it was being done right? MrF: No at the time I certainly didn’t. I remember thinking what are they doing, because they were just pouring the rock into those cages and I was thinking it was going to devastate it. At the actual time they were building it I thought it was going to look awful down there. I never thought there would be some scientific thought going into it, that never crossed my mind, I just thought they used a contractor, but there must have been because of the way it has turned out now. Int: What did you think about using the willow? MrF: I had seen it on telly funnily enough. There has been an awful lot of discussion about using that as defence over the last few years so I had actually seen it. I was quite pleased when that went in. When it first went in I thought it looked like the river had a beard because it was

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almost regimental when they put it in, it was not random and it didn’t look quite right. But it has turned out very well. It looks nice and untidy now. Int: Were you surprised when it changed? MrF: Yes because I didn’t use the river for perhaps 6 months or so and when I did go down there at the beginning of last summer I was incredibly surprised. As I say you couldn’t see the defences at all. In fact I probably rode up there 4 or 5 times before I actually thought about it. I just kept going without even thinking about the works that had gone on there and one day I thought where have all those blocks gone. Int: Thinking about works on the river in general, those works and other works, how much confidence do you have that those who manage the river know what they are doing as it were? MrF: Lots and lots. Partly because of what I have seen and partly because a friend of mine is trying to join the Environmental Agency and is having a nightmare of a time trying to get in because of the qualifications required, so the people at the top I believe know what they are doing. I have enormous confidence in them, especially what they have done here. That probably makes a change I would think. Int: Well compared with many other agencies I think it does make a change actually. MrF: Well the difference is that when any other agency does something you can’t directly see what they have done. You might be able to read what they have done but you can’t actually physically see good, whereas you can with some thing like this. Everybody likes the river and somewhere to go. Everybody likes running water, if they can go somewhere that there is running water then it makes them feel nice, especially when it is a sunny warm day and you just want a stroll you get that warm feeling. If you go up there and you can see, at the time people don’t like it when the work is actually taking place because you think of the disruption, but if you can see a positive change and improvement then you are going to think that is good. You don’t get that with any other agency, because you can’t physically see what they have done. You hear about it, but nobody takes any notice. Int: Anything else you would like to add about the river and the work on it? MrF: No I don’t think so, we have pretty much covered it I think. Int: Yes you have answered most of my questions. Thank you very much indeed for your time.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 17 Int: Perhaps I could ask you how much use to you make of the river? MrG: Well only for walking basically. Last year I used it an awful lot for walking. Up until August or September last year, but then I was doing the gardening here and then the walking went. Up until then I was walking it very regularly, but purely for walking along the river. Int: Which bits do you walk? MrG: Well generally I would walk from what they call Pinkhams Lock down here, upstream as far as Hartlakes Bridge, I quite often do that. I sometimes straight up and straight back but you can loop around and come back into the village in another direction, it just depends how much time I have. I have walked to Tonbridge before now on the odd occasion. Int: Downstream as well. MrG: Yes downstream a little. Almost as far as Yalding, but mainly upstream. Int: Thinking back to 1993/94 when they did the works of bank restoration the river, do you recall those works? MrG: Yes where they put the faggots together and put those in to hold the banks and planted bits of willow cut off, they are going to root anyway. Int: Were you aware of those works being done before they were started? MrG: No. Int: So you didn’t have any expectations about them at the time? MrG: What as to what they might be like? Int: Yes, did they see them when they were going in? MrG: No I saw them after they had gone in and not while they were doing it. Int: What did you think about them then? MrG: I thought they were very efficient and a very sensible way of doing bank restoration work and keeping it from bank erosion. They are obviously a very efficient way of holding the banks together, because here with the clay it just washes away, there is no rock in there to hold it so it will always move. Yes as a means of bank stability I think it is very efficient.

Int: How about the works down at Branbridges bridge. Did you see those as they were going in at all? MrG: I wasn’t aware of them as they were going in. I am aware of them now but I wasn’t actually aware of them at the time. Int: Thinking of those works now, both the Branbridges and the Oak Weir works, how successful do you think they have been? MrG: I would say, certainly the ones at Branbridges, have been very successful. I think possibly if there had been any failure in them, it would have probably been caused by damage by vandals rather than the actual work itself, that itself has been very successful. Int: What is the main way you would judge them as being successful? MrG: Well there has been a lot of regeneration of growth of plants, it has allowed that to regenerate and get the roots in to help to reduce the erosion from the bank. It seems to me that the bank is stabilised now, whereas upstream where the work hasn’t been done it is still being broken away in many places. Int: How about the Oak Weir works, how successful do you think they have been. MrG: I am not so aware of them, I think you know where you mean which is just to the upstream side of Oak Weir. Int: Yes where they did the faggotting that you mentioned. MrG: Yes that again has been very successful up there. There has been a lot of growth within that there so I think it has been wholly successful. Int: What are the main ways you judge its success? MrG: Well the fact that the bank is no longer crumbling, the pathway continues where it is meant to continue, in other words you are not going up as you do in other places and you have suddenly got to divert inland because the bank has been eroded away. That is the way I would judge it that the path is perfectly stable now, whereas in many places it isn’t. Int: How about in other ways, like appearance or the effect on the wildlife and things like that? MrG: Well it is obviously good for the wildlife, there’s no question about that, it gives them somewhere to go. I saw a whole family of mink down there one day. Int: Did you really? MrG: Yes, there are no otters so they had to be mink. I know there are a lot of mink in the

river. They were going downstream and there was a whole family of them, but they were keeping right in there. So yes it certainly is a great boon to the wildlife. Int: What do you think has been the most important benefit of those works? What benefit have they had to local people the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrG: Well I think it is only the fact that they have stabilised the riverbank, that’s the most important benefit from it. It makes it safer for people who are walking it in other words, it is less likely to disappear beneath your feet. There are places where it does and can happen, you have got to look where you are walking in some places. Particularly there is a place downstream from Oak Weir, which is very bad, and in two or three places it has gone there. They have used other methods but they haven’t been very successful. One year they did it and it went again the next year. Int: Is that where they used the planks? MrG: Yes. I couldn’t see the logic of that, because they put in almost like small fencing panels. They simply drove the stakes in but they didn’t tie them together at that point and of course it just opened like a pair of gates. To me it was extremely inefficient and just a waste of time. That is a particularly bad spot there. Int: Is that the East Peckham side of Oak Weir. MrG: Yes it is below the next bridge down, the one that goes through Snell Hatch. Int: Is that the Wagon bridge? MrG: Yes it probably is because the next one we tend to call the iron bridge, simply because it is an iron bridge. Int: Thinking about the river here, what part does it play in the life of the local community would you say? MrG: I don’t know really. I’m never aware of it being extensively used for boating or anything. I would say the only part it really plays is for people walking. I don’t know about locally, but you can certainly tell it is well used. You often meet people, whether they are local people or ramblers I don’t know. There are an awful lot of people who walk their dogs there and you see them on a regular basis, so yes in that respect it is important, it is somewhere that they can walk their animals and get out into the countryside. There is a lot of wildlife down there where it gets undisturbed. In that respect it is important. Int: What part does it play in your life? MrG: Purely and simply really it is somewhere to walk. Int: You are obviously quite a keen walker.

MrG: If I go for a walk then yes I do like to go for a walk. I do like to walk. I play golf as well so I walk a lot in that. It just depends really. As I say I don’t think I have been out this year as such walking up there, but we went the other way funnily enough, but I do like to walk on a regular basis. Int: Do you think when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, that they took the use that local people make of the river into account in doing it? Do you think that was a concern? MrG: I don’t know. I must admit I simply assumed it had been done to stabilise the banks of the river. It is classed as the Medway walk now and just really that is the way I looked at it, whether it was for the local people or as the population as a whole it was done to ensure that the towpath side of the river was stabilised. Int: Do you think that local people have a sense of ownership of the river, or attachment to the river? MrG: No I wouldn’t say. I’m never aware of it. I would say a very small percentage do. I think at one time people used to use it a lot and walk along there often, but I don’t think they do now, not the vast majority anyway. Int: How about yourself, how do you feel about the river? How important is it to you? MrG: It is important to me as a place to go and walk and enjoy the countryside in a bit of peace and quiet and see the wildlife. A river like that, or when it gets out and is not too well used, it does become a sanctuary for wildlife if it is not to encroached upon. It does get a bit because of the hop farm there which obviously occupies a lot of the bank up there, but there are pockets of it which are genuine sanctuaries for wildlife, so to me it is important in that respect, and to allow me to walk somewhere rather than just walking along the country lanes or across the fields or whatever. I quite like walking by the side of the river if possible. Int: What do you like about walking beside the river? MrG: I suppose it is something in the water and the peace and quiet you get from the trickle of water, not that you hear much there. I think you see an awful lot of wildlife if you walk quite a way you can see a tremendous amount there. At one stage it didn’t have so much, but certainly the year before I was disappointed if I didn’t see a kingfisher every time I went. They were few and far between last year but there were still a few about. Int: I have never seen one, I have been down there quite a lot but I have never seen one. MrG: There are quite a lot down there. Also fish. I used to go fishing quite a lot at one time and I was surprised by the amount of fish you could see there at times. That is my usage of it. Int: Thinking about the works that were done, do you recall any consultation or involvement of local people?

MrG: No. Int: How do you feel about that, do you feel local people should have been consulted or involved, or do you think it was satisfactory the way it was? MrG: I think really it was satisfactory as far as I am concerned. I can’t see that they have done anything to the detriment of local people. Whatever they have done has improved it for those that use it. I don’t think there was anything detrimental in what they have done. Int: Perhaps I could ask you some general questions now. What do you think of as a natural river? What would a natural river be like in your opinion? MrG: It becomes to nostalgia for me. A natural river to me would be a chalk stream. Int: Do you have experience of chalk streams then? MrG: Well I was born in North West Kent and where I was born there were no rivers because it was on the top of the hill, but I used to walk down to Basted where there was a chalk stream that actually came out of a hill, down at North Downs, so that would be my view. That was my earliest memory of a river, it was the only river I knew. Int: What were the characteristics of that? MrG: Well it was very much a stream with a hard based bottom. There was flint etc on the bottom. Because it had come out of a hill it was perfectly clean water. Water cress was still growing in it and also it was in its early stages, do you call it the cataracts stages, there were little runs and you could dam it etc. so I suppose its nostalgia really. I don’t think I was aware of the wildlife, well I was aware of it but no so keen on it. Int: Thinking about the Medway, how natural do you think that is? MrG: Well I suppose it is fairly natural. It is difficult to say. The fact that it has got locks on which means they used the barges up and down and one time, it had the towpath, so I wouldn’t like to say just how natural it is now to what it used to be. There was the lovely story of the farmer in Norfolk who was taking a group of conservationists around his field and he showed them this huge expanse and he said I was thinking of putting a copse of trees in there to enhance the view, and they said oh no you mustn’t do that, and it turned out that originally there had been a copse of trees there and he had taken them out. It just shows it is people’s perception at the time. I don’t know how natural it is. I would think it is fairly natural. It has not been extensively used. Int: What sort of features of the Medway make it natural for you? MrG: I think the fact that it is going through clay, the clay banks and the woods still with the fields running down to it. I suppose that makes it natural. The fact that it hasn’t got a lot of towpath now that it is purely and simple natural in that respect. The only thing as I say is that there are a lot of

locks which does say that it was used extensively at one time obviously for getting barges up and down to Tonbridge, although I don’t know what was carried on it, possibly bricks from Tonbridge downstream and coal up I suppose, but I have no idea what the uses were. Int: How do you think of the Medway? Do you think of it as a typical lowland river, or do you think of it as a special or unique river? How do you see it? MrG: No to me it is just a typical lowland river I suppose. It is typical, although it is not terribly typical I suppose in a sense, it probably depends where you go. It is fairly typical. It is more attractive or more interesting in the upper reaches than in the lower reaches. Int: Do you know those upper bits then? MrG: Up around Fordcombe and where it starts at Ashurst yes, not extensively, but yes because I used to live at Hildenborough, so I knew it from that end and certainly where it comes through from Fordcombe and into Ashurst, because it is in its early stages and it meanders an awful lot more than it appears to then perhaps it is a little more interesting there. Int: Do you know it lower down towards where it joins the Thames. MrG: Really only to Maidstone but not so much where it joins the Thames no, not up towards Rochester etc. I really don’t know it so much up there. Obviously it becomes wide and uninteresting up there and being tidal makes it muckier. I used to cross it regularly at Aylesford at the bridge and whether the tide was in or our depended on how attractive or ugly it looked at the time, very much so there. Int: Because of the mud? MrG: Yes when the tide is out you have basically just got an expanse of mud. Parts of the river are attractive there depending on the tide. Lower down I have just been aware of this expanse of water that just looked totally uninteresting but it is obviously valuable to the wildlife there. It is relative as to whether it is a food supply for you or not. Int: Thinking about the Medway again, how conscious are you of its history? MrG: I suppose the only historical side of it I can remember is when it used to flood. I have seen a canoe down the end of the road here, I can’t remember when it was but the last time it flooded here. Int: Were you living here then? MrG: Oh yes there have been two occasions since we lived here that it has flooded down here. You couldn’t actually get out into Old Road, we were OK here, but you couldn’t actually physically get down there and I can remember that on two occasions. Since they have put the flood barrier in at Leigh that has obviously solved the problem completely. Int: When did that go in then?

MrG: I’m not very good on dates but I would think mid to late 70’s. Int: Yes because it flooded in 1968 and it was after that. MrG: Yes. Across the road has been affected. If I could remember where I worked I could probably count it back. I was working at Paddock Wood and I couldn’t actually get there. I could walk along with my wellingtons on but you couldn’t actually drive a car along. Somebody came along part of the way and picked me up but you couldn’t actually drive across this bit here. There have been two occasions since we have lived here that it has been up and over. There was a van stranded at the bottom there. Int: I was going to ask you over the time you have known the river whether you think it has changed much, or do you think it has remained fairly constant? MrG: I would say basically stayed the same in this immediate area. It is certainly noticeable downstream at Wateringbury where the marinas and that type of thing have gone in, there is more usage in that respect and there are mooring spaces for boats on the river. When you walk it you do notice during the summer months the number of pleasure boats that are using it now. It is quite normal to see them now compared to before when it was a rarity or you saw them only at weekends, so there is a greater usage of it now for leisure facilities. Int: Any other ways you think it has changed over the time you have known it? MrG: I don’t think so. I wouldn’t know whether it is any cleaner or dirtier. We are told it is cleaner so I suppose it probably is, but I couldn’t be sure of that. Int: Thinking about over the year, do you see it changing a lot over the seasons? MrG: Yes you are aware of the rise and fall of the river, particularly when we had the wet spell. It was at the top of the banks for two or three weeks which was unusual. Lower down it was actually over the banks there, purely over the normal flood plane, no property was damaged as far as I was aware. That is the one thing you are aware of the height or otherwise of the river and that sort of thing. Particularly if you go down there one morning and find that the lock gates have been tied open and upstream it is gone. It was the kids I’m afraid doing it, both sets of gates were open and the whole lot was gone. Int: How much was was left in there? MrG: Not a lot. Going from there up towards Oak Weir and I presume it went right the way back to Oak Weir from Pinkhams Lock. Once they open that away it goes. I must admit I haven’t been down since they were putting the new weir in. I did walk down there once, but I haven’t been down there recently so I don’t quite know what is going on down there. I don’t know the reason for the new weir, why it was necessary. Int: Thinking of the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you think they have

made the river more natural or less natural or did they have no impact? MrG: I would think possibly they made it more natural, because it probably allowed the willows and what have you to regenerate whereas before they were pulled away. In many respects I think it made it more natural, although obviously erosion of the banks must have gone on all the time with the nature of the soil, the river must have changed its course at times because the clay just washes away so easily. I would think it has probably made it more natural. If I think upstream particularly on the other bank it isn’t warped so much, and you see the way the growth is there then perhaps it has gone back to somewhere near it would have been in its natural state. Int: Right. What do you think of people talking about restoring rivers? The other two schemes that we are studying along with the Medway, they have river engineers and river managers who have endeavoured to put back the meanders in a river that has been straightened in the past. They have broken down the banks that were made of concrete. What do you think of that idea, endeavouring to return the river to a more natural condition? MrG: I am not too sure. I consider some of these rivers particularly in the Midlands where they have been straightened and are boring and uninteresting, I can see the reasons for it just from a visual point of view. It obviously looks better and makes it more attractive, let’s face it the leisure industry is a fast growing thing, so if it gives people somewhere to go to spend their leisure time in more enjoyable surroundings then in that respect I suppose it has to be a good thing. I wonder whether financially there aren’t things that the money could be better spent on, hospitals etc. so in that respect I am not so sure. Overall it is an applaudable idea but whether it is the best way of spending the country’s money I am not sure. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers and controlled them. What do you think about that idea? MrG: I think yes we probably have and I think it is probably necessary do to so to stop widespread flooding. Certainly earlier this year when we had that tremendous amount of rain, if the river hadn’t been tamed with the flood barriers and lock gates to hold the water back, then there would have been widespread flooding and interruption to people’s lives, property and transportation, so it has been done, but I think it is necessary in any part of the country that has a large population. It has to be done if you are going to continue to build towns that grow up alongside rivers. Int: Do you think there are rivers that haven’t been tamed in the UK? MrG: I don’t know. I suppose certainly in the UK then yes there are, in Scotland and places like that then I am sure there are rivers that haven’t been tamed. I would assume that in parts of Southern England there are. I know that parts of the Thanet down in Wiltshire that has been tamed. The Avon Canal has undoubtedly been done and I am sure most of the others in some respect have been tamed. Certainly there are some rivers, I doubt whether any large ones, but some smaller rivers are probably still running naturally, which is a very nice ideal but if you have centres with population around them then it is inevitable that there is going to be some taming of them. Int: I was going to ask you whether taming a river makes it more or less natural but you have

talked about that already. MrG: Well if you say taming at this stage makes it less natural, but if you ask somebody in 50 years time who had never seen it before then they would say it was perfectly natural. It is where you are at the time you are asking the question I would say. What is natural. The landscape isn’t natural. The whole landscape has been shaped by man now there are very few places, even in the wilds of Scotland, most of it has been shaped by man one way or another for his own purposes. I don’t think we have got a great deal of natural landscape in the UK. A lot of it is still very beautiful but it has been altered for man’s needs. Int: Thinking about the kind of restoration works that were done on the River Medway, do you think they had the basis of scientific knowledge to do that kind of work. Did you get the sense that those works were based on scientific knowledge or how did you feel about that? MrG: I don’t know, I think to me it would have been common sense. I would have thought that many of the country men would have said that was the only way to do it. It would have been common sense to me to do it that way. Undoubtedly they did have scientific knowledge, but it had been done for many thousands of years in that way. Didn’t the Romans do it in London, exactly the same? Int: I don’t know about that. MrG: I would assume they would have had the scientific knowledge. I am sure it has been used before, but scientifically they probably did some research into it but it is well known that certain shrubs regenerate quickly and root quickly if you just put them in, so it was a very logical way of doing it in my view. Int: Thinking generally about the people who manage the River Medway and rivers in general, do you have confidence in their management, how do you feel about the management of rivers? MrG: I would say overall I would have confidence because we no longer have the flooding in the country. Somebody had the foresight to do that and prevent the flooding by putting in a flood barrier upstream, and I suppose the rest of the work I would say overall. Int: Right I think those are most of the things I wanted to ask you about, unless there are other things you would like to say about the river that we haven’t touched on. MrG: No I don’t think so really. The one thing which I have said was downstream from Oak Weir where they put these small fencing panels in and to me it was never going to work the way it was done and there wasn’t much logic to it. My father would have looked at it in horror and said how do you expect that to work. Int: Was he associated with rivers then? MrG: No but he was a countryman and a very practical person. I don’t think he would have approved of that.

Int: I have walked that section but I don’t recall. They were like interwoven fences were they? MrG: Well close boarded fences some of them, but they were very shallow, I suppose about 2 foot depth with the stakes which they had obviously driven in but the weight from the top had just pushed them over. Had they tied them together where the join was it would have probably worked, or would certainly have made a lot of difference to make some effort to tie them, but the fact that they weren’t they just burst open. I haven’t been up there for some time so I don’t know what they are like now, but it was a dangerous spot if somebody wasn’t paying attention, particularly if you had children with you then you had to make sure they were looking where they were going. That was the only one criticism I would have, but I don’t know who was responsible for that. Int: No I don’t. I will have to go and have a look and see what has happened to that. MrG: It was only just down stream from the wagon bridge. I don’t know if it is on the local map with the name of the bridges. I have a parish map. Int: That’s much more detailed actually. MrG: It’s a footpath map but it obviously shows all East Peckham parish which is enormous. No it doesn’t have the names of the bridges on. It is the one that is there, but it hasn’t got the name on. Just on the bend. Int: That’s the island there. MrG: That’s the one we would call the iron bridge over there. It’s amazing the amount of birds that spend their time on that island now. Int: Right I must look out for that then. MrG: Yes it is a matter of 50 yards downstream from that bridge. It is wooded and it’s almost at the end of the woods. Int: I must have a look at that. The river must have been quite high at times, I have seen the debris on the bushes. MrG: Yes we had an awful lot of rain in January and the river was at the top of its banks for 2-3 weeks, which is very unusual for it to stay there consistently like that, but it was very high for one of the longest periods that I can remember. Int: Did you get a flood warning for the village area? MrG: Well I think at one time there was the first alert it went to amber or something and there probably was a bit of one. Sometimes you tend to ignore it because you know it has never flooded up here in living memory so we are OK. I would imagine some people living close by would be a little worried. We have friends that live up at Little Mill and they would have had their sandbags

out. Int: So even with the barrier there are times when it floods. MrG: Well certain spots where there is localised flooding. Again it is nowhere near as bad as it used to, I knew some friends who lived nearby and their furniture was floating about in the room. It is now likely to just come indoors but not to that extent. The flood barrier has been a saviour to an awful lot of people. It: Right. Well thank you very much.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 18 MsH: Oh yes, my friend and I are great walkers, so we walk around the country a great deal. Int: Oh well you are the right person to talk to then. You were saying that you don’t get down to the river as much as you used to now. MsH: Well I haven’t got the dog and apart from that they have been doing all the construction work down there and we couldn’t get through, we had to plough through to go along a wire fence and the mud had been churned up by the tractor, and it went practically to the top of our wellies, so we thought until it dries out a bit we won’t go down there yet. With all the tractors and that going down there it is full of great big ruts and it is very difficult to walk. Int: Normally how often would you be going down there? MsH: Well in the summer when we go over to Whitbreads when they have the dos on then it is very Sunday and most likely a couple of times in the week. We walk that way when it dries up a lot more. Int: I wonder whether you recall what we talked about last time which was about 3 years ago, when they did the works at Branbridges to restore the riverbank. Do you recall those works there? MsH: How long ago would that have been? Int: It was 1994/94. MsH: Well you lived at Branbridges (talking to another person) do you remember that. Was it as long ago as that because they were working on that bridge not all that long ago weren’t they? It is just past the Rose & Crown. Int: That’s right, the bridge there, but this work is not to the bridge itself but to the river. MsH: I do remember it but I didn’t think it was that long ago. I remember them doing it. Int: Right. The other bit that they did work on was the bit along by Oak Weir, do you know that bit? Which direction do you walk in? MsH: Oh all sorts of ways, which bit was that? Int: I can tell you on the map. MsH: Is it when you walk to Tonbridge or Yalding or which way is towards? Int: It is if you go down Pinkhams and walk to the right along in the Hartlake direction. It’s before you get to Hartlake. MsH: Oh yes we have walked across that weir, of course we have. Yes we do know it. Int: Well just beyond Oak Weir they did bank restoration works there. Do you recall seeing

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those? MsH: Well we didn’t see it but we saw that they had been done. Yes there were markers and something and I thought they had done a lot of tidying up and a lot of work along there. Int: Thinking about those two lots of work at Branbridges and Oak Weir, how successful do you think those works were from your experience in walking along there. MsH: Well I think they are pretty good because it was very overgrown and I think it has made it a lot easier. Down the river here, some of the paths you just couldn’t walk along. They were public footpaths but they were absolutely overgrown with nettles and brambles, but the last time I went down there they had been cleared. It is still a bit dangerous to walk down there yet because some of those paths are so slippery you could slip into the river and that’s really why we keep away at the moment. I think what we did see, especially that one along by the weir, is very good because we remarked that it was all cut back and all done nice. Int: Did you see them doing it at all? MsH: No. We saw them doing it down at Branbridges but not at the Weir, we just saw the after effects. Int: Could you see how it had been done, or was it not really apparent? MsH: Well it just looked very tidy, cut back and the paths were clear and it was just generally looked after. Int: So thinking of those works, what do you think has been the main benefit for local people? MsH: Well I should think the best of it is clearing the paths for the walkers, because there are a lot of walkers around this way. A lot of people take dogs and the dogs get caught up in the overgrown bushes and that. I think the best benefit is to the walkers. Int: Any other benefits that you can think of? How about the look of it? MsH: Well it looks nice and you can see into the river, you can look in now and see the fish, whereas before you didn’t dare because you would get caught up in all the brambles. It has just made it look more like a country park than a wasteland. Int: Is that how you would prefer it to be along there? MsH: Yes, I mean we do love the woods, but sometimes you just want to walk, like on a summers day you just want to walk through a country park, and part of the river feels like that. They are putting in a salmon leap now. Did you know they found two salmon? Int: Yes I had heard that, that’s interesting. Where were they, where did they find them? MsH: I’m not too sure but it was down this way in this direction, and they said it was the first time the salmon had been up the river for goodness knows how long, and they are going to put in a salmon leap. It must be getting cleaner because the salmon definitely wouldn’t come to a

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polluted river. It’s very good down there and I think whatever money they have spent it is worth it because it is used so much with the canoeists and long boats. Somebody told me that they are making a place for the canoes to come through, because they used to have to come out of the water, but I can’t see how they can do it with the weir there and the lock. When they come up so far they have to climb out of the water with their canoes and carry them around and down the other side. They have made a platform for them to launch the boats on but I can’t see that they can do otherwise than that because you have got the lock this side and the weir that side, so I can’t see that they can possibly make a canoe pass through there. MsH: You have got the lock for the boats and the big concrete walls where they let the water through and that goes the whole length of the river, so I can’t see where they can put that in. Somebody did say that they were doing that. You have got the differences in the river as well. You can’t go straight up on the canoe because it is up in places and then down in others, so I don’t know how they could possibly do that. MsH: I don’t know where they would find the space though because that weir wall goes right across the river. Right across from one side to the other, there’s no break in it. Int: Well I don’t know. MsH: We will have to wait and see won’t we. One more thing I think they should do and that is have rubbish bins. I did tell a workman down there when we were talking and he said we did try but they throw them in the river. If they were built in. Down the bottom there is a dog bin, but in the summer it is absolutely alive with flies and things because all over the place there are bottles and rubbish, where the fishermen and the picnickers just bring it that far and then dump it. Int: They dump it by the dog bin do they? MsH: Yes they dump it there. It is absolutely overflowing in the summer, it goes right across the path and you can’t hardly get through it. I said why don’t you have a bin and he said we did try but they throw it in the river. I said well why don’t you have something like a concrete one set into the ground with just bags, maybe that would work, because a lot of people do use it and I’m afraid they just throw down their litter down. If they can take it there then they can take it back but they don’t look at it like that, they just throw it down and I think there should be somewhere to put the rubbish. I know that is a problem. But it is disgusting where that dog bin is in the summer, there are bottles and cans and everything. It’s not nice. Int: Thinking about the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, how successful do you think those works were? MsH: Well I think they are very good. I think all the work they are doing on the river is pretty good, all the trees they have planted. I think they are looking after it pretty well. You stand on there sometimes and look down and I think you could be in the middle of Wales, it looks so lovely with the trees and the river and you wouldn’t think you are close to a town. It looks so nice. It is lovely to get away down there. You feel that you are miles away. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community? MsH: Well fishermen obviously and all of us that walk through to Whitbreads without paying,

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which we all do from the village. When I first came here I was told that if you live in East Peckham you do not pay. You go down the lane and over the field and you are in, well it’s not Whitbreads now, it is the hop farm, but nobody that lives in East Peckham pays to go in there and that is a big advantage. Int: What sort of events do they have there? MsH: Well all sorts right through the summer, country fairs, dog shows, motor cycling, car racing, fetes, fund raising things, balloons and helicopter rides, all sorts of things. Well you pay for those but you don’t pay the admission because we go in the back way. Then we go mushrooming because there are loads of mushrooms over there where they have the horses. Blackberry picking, picking flowers. Int: What sort of flowers are there? MsH: Well we just pick bits and pieces off the hedge. We don’t pick bunches of flowers we just pick bits of dried stuff here and there. We just enjoy it. The kids paddle too, when you go down to the lock at the side where the bank slopes down, you get stacks of swimmers down there in summer and kids paddling because it is quite shallow there. We get loads of boats coming up from Waterinbury. I think it is very busy in the summer and it is a famous dog walking place. It is a very popular place in East Peckham. When my family come over they say shall we go over the lock and they really like it down there. Most of the kids around the village go down their fishing. Int: What part does the river play in your life? MsH: Well walking really. I used to go down there once or twice, or even sometimes three times a day, when I had my little dog, but now that I haven’t got him I don’t go down there so much. We will do though once they have got all that mud sorted out a bit more. Mostly it is somewhere nice to walk. We go right up into Tonbridge. We did it that day when we walked through the weir. Int: That’s a long walk. MsH: Oh we walked miles. We walked back down from the Golden Green. Golden Green to Hadlow and Hadlow to West Peckham and then we got lost. We do walk a lot. Int: How about in the other direction? MsH: We go down to Yalding and Laddingford and then we go along the river from Yalding to Washinbury and along there. I think on the whole that the river is looked after pretty well everywhere. You can’t cut all the brambles back because that wouldn’t be fair on all the little animals and things. They have got to have some cover, but on the whole I think it is quite good. We like that walk from Yalding to Waterinbury. It’s lovely there with all the lovely trees. Int: Do you think when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, they took into account the way local people use the river and what use they make of the river? MsH: Well I think down Branbridges they took the fishermen into consideration more, but up the weir way I think they took into consideration the walkers, because you do find a lot of

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walkers up that way. Down this way it was mostly for the fishermen I would think. Int: Right. How much do you think that local people feel a sense of the river being local property and part of their lives? MsH: I think the people in the village do appreciate it. When people say where do you live and you tell them Pinkham they say is that down by that lovely river, it’s nice down there isn’t it? I think they do appreciate it. There are not many people that don’t come down the river I don’t think. Even those that haven’t got dogs they have children, and the children like going down there. Once you get over that first little stream the kids can run off, well not at the moment because it is too muddy, in the summer they can. I have my front door open all through the summer you see stacks of families go down there, especially in the summer. I like to go down there and sit on the bank and watch the boats that come up from Waterinbury, the long boats with all their plants and pots on top, they are really pretty. I think people do appreciate it. Especially now it can’t flood and ruin all their houses like it did before. Int: Were you here then? MsH: No but I have lots of photographs from my neighbour of this whole road. They couldn’t get out for a long time it was all under water. In the main road they had to use boats, it came rushing down here and flooded all these houses. Up at Snell Hatch when we had the rain a little while when it went on and on, we did have a flood up there. Not into the houses but the road was absolutely covered. It came down the side road from there but nothing like it used to be. It still did flood there a bit but it wasn’t bad, I think they have got it controlled now with the barrier. We noticed last year the dragonflies come back. You never used to see those a while ago but we noticed a lot of those when we have been walking. I think it has all got to do with keeping the place cleaner. I think they are doing a good job. Int: When the works were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you recall there being any consultation of the local people at the time? MsH: No I don’t remember any. Int: How do you feel about that? Do you think local people should have been consulted? MsH: I’m not sure about that, because it was for a benefit. They weren’t doing anything wrong. If they were churning the countryside up and building then yes I think we should have been consulted, but not for this because it is an improvement for anybody that likes to use it. I would be the first one to be against it if they wanted to build houses or something like that down there, but not when they are improving it for anybody that chooses to walk. I think up in the village they are talking about putting in an Indian Take Away. That is up to people then to protest, but that is a different thing all together. When it is making the place nice I think that is good and you don’t need to have approval. Int: Right. Perhaps I could ask you a general question now. Thinking about rivers in general, what do you think a natural river is like? How would you describe a natural river? MsH: Well there has to be fish in it obviously that shows it is clean enough. A lot of birds around it, trees with a lot of birds and some cover too for the little animals, and wildflowers growing up the bank. It is lovely to see all the primroses growing. Peace and quiet to be able

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to get out of the town. I wouldn’t like a river to be like it is in some parts, where you have the water and then the bank is all smoothed and grassed. I don’t like it like that. I like to see the wild flowers and the birds and the fish and some nice trees. Natural but with the paths clear so you can walk along. The actual bank of the river to be a natural bank and not all cut down and grassed over. That is more like a park. It should be natural. The creatures should be allowed to live there. Int: Do you think of the River Medway as a natural river? MsH: Well near here it is yes. I think it is pretty good around here really. Where we walk it is normal, it is not made up with paths and things. It is quite wild. There are loads of foxes around here as well and I think you have got to keep the trees and things, but you need to keep the paths clear, get rid of the stinging nettles. Let the banks be like they are to shelter all the things that need sheltering. Int: How about the locks. Do you think they make it more or less natural? What do you think about the locks? MsH: Well they have got to have the locks because of the difference in the water. They have got to be there and you can’t do much else unless you want a great big waterfall and I don’t think that would work. In the summer the boats are up and down continuously and the locks are kept in use all the time. They are kept clean because there are always dredgers in there dredging out the mud so they do keep the locks clean. Some kids swim in the summer, but I think that is a bit dodgy but you can’t stop them I suppose. I think you have got to have the locks. It is nice to walk across that big one anyway and see the water going down. When it is really going strong and coming up it is lovely, you have got to have those and you can’t do much else about it. Int: Do you think of the Medway as a typical lowland river, or do you think of it as a special river? MsH: Well it is special to us, but I think it is a great river the Medway. It is well known, it isn’t a little tiny siding, it is a good river. They talk about the Medway town and they are all associated with the River Medway. Rochester, Chatham and all these Medway towns are very important and I don’t think they would be if it wasn’t for the Medway. It brings importance to the town. Int: How much are you are of, or think that the history of the river is important? Is that something you are aware of? MsH: Well I don’t know if I am aware of any particular history. I know it has been there a long time and there is a lot of history attached to it. They did use it a lot for transporting stuff, which is a shame they can’t do now. Not so much up this end but in Rochester and Chatham I think it is great in history because it was used a lot for commercial use in those days. Now they block the roads up instead. Int: Thinking about the river, how much of the river do you know? What is the area of the river that you know, which parts do you know? MsH: Well we know very well from Tonbridge down to Maidstone pretty well.

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Int: How about past Tonbridge? MsH: Not very well no. We used to go when we were children we used to go swimming down at Haste End, down where the new barrier is now. I know down as far as that barrier because when I lived in Tonbridge I used to walk down as far as that barrier with the dog, but I can’t say past that. Int: How about from Maidstone to where it joins the Thames? MsH: No I don’t know that area at all. We are only walkers so we can only do a certain amount. Int: Thinking about the works they did on the river at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you think those works made the river more or less natural? How did they affect the naturalness of the river do you think? MsH: Well I don’t think it has affected the river at all, I think that it is still natural. I think it made it better for access for the fishermen and the walkers. That’s what I think. Int: Thinking about restoring rivers, there are two other rivers we are studying, and with those they have done quite radical works to attempt to restore them to a more natural condition. They are rivers that were straightened and had their banks artificially reinforced, and they have broken the banks away and made them more natural. They have also put back meanders in the river. What do you think about that sort of idea? MsH: Well it is very nice when they meander. I think it is nice when they meander like that instead of great big long straight rivers. I know that down here they have to concrete parts of the bank up because it was really sliding into the river. The footpath in places was very dangerous. That boy up there was killed because he fell in with his bike. It was very dangerous so that obviously they have got to do, put some concrete in there to stop it. But I don’t like to see the concrete put in there unless it is absolutely necessary, it should be natural, but if it has got to be then it has got to be, otherwise it is eroding the footpath too much and making it dangerous. Int: The idea of taking it away and making rivers follow a meandering course, how does that sound? MsH: I think that sounds lovely. It is a lovely word meandering. It makes you imagine a lovely summers day. I look forward to it coming again so we can get down there again. Int: Well there is a touch of spring in February now. MsH: Yes but I think it is going to get cold again. Int: Thinking about rivers in general, some people say that we have tamed our rivers and controlled them. What do you think about that idea? MsH: Well I suppose they have to a certain extent because if you didn’t they would just be overgrown, the bushes would go right over into the water and the green stuff would grow on top

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of the water. I think they have got to be looked after but not severely. Not to be made to look like a park. When I said it looks more like a country park, I mean that a country park is a wild park, and I am talking about a town park, which is horrible. I think so anyway, they are too prim and proper. Int: What do you think about the river Medway in Tonbridge then? MsH: Well that’s used a lot by boats and I used to walk along there a long way right from Tonbridge Castle right the way along to, I can’t think of the name now. Every few yards there was a fisherman so the river had got to be pretty clean. It was natural and I liked it very much. I think the rivers are pretty good really around this way anyway. Int: Thinking about rivers, do you think that there are natural rivers in other parts of Britain? MsH: I don’t really know much about that and I can’t really say. They are nice in Wales but I don’t really know about any other rivers. I have been around but I can’t really say I took a lot of notice. Int: When they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, do you think that they had the scientific knowledge to do those kind of works? Do you think the work was based on scientific knowledge? How do you feel about that? MsH: I suppose it must have done to a certain extent because they have got to know about all the tides and the fish. They have got to know about weirs and damns and everything concerned, so I suppose yes it must be scientific. They can’t just go and make the bank straight, they have got to know why. I think they have got to know what they are doing and based on scientific knowledge. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, and the management of the river itself, do you have confidence that the river managers know what they are doing? MsH: Oh yes I think they do. Int: Any other comments you would like to make about the river? MsH: There’s no point in having lifebelts down there because they throw them in the river. They have tried that. Sometimes when I see the kids down their fishing it makes me go cold. Little boys of about 8 on their own. I talked to the man and he said that they have tried it but they throw them in the river. Same as the bins. I think once it is done it will be pretty good down there, and I think a lot of people will use it then. Int: Do you think over the time that you have known the river, obviously you have known it for some time, has it changed much around here? MsH: Well I haven’t been here for very long. But it has changed quite a bit in Tonbridge since they built the damn, because it was always flooding, as you know, across the fields and everything, and also the town. It has controlled the river now. I think they have worked quite a bit on that end of the river. I think they have done quite good works, what I have seen of it anyway and I think it is a good thing because the river is very important. It is important to keep

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it clear of weeds and things, but let it still stay natural. Int: Thinking about the river over the seasons, how changeable is it? MsH: Well it can rush sometimes, it’s quite frightening. Sometimes you go down there and it is absolutely frightening, it is just rushing through like a torrent, great big white horses tearing along. Other times it is like a mill pond and it does change. It doesn’t flood but it does get very swift and high. On the whole it flows along steady. I think it depends if they open the weir gates. A while ago they were vandalised, somebody opened all the locks, or shut them and the river absolutely dried up. There was mud right the way up. This bit of river at the side was completely gone it was just mud. That was vandalism, they had broken into the house where it is controlled from and turned it all off or something. Int: Well the weirs are automatic aren’t they? Did you see the river then? MsH: Yes we saw it with all the mud. Int: Was that up here? MsH: Yes right the way across the bottom and the main river. Not that side of the lock but the top of the lock, the high bit was absolutely mud right the way along. They stopped the flow coming through. Although a lot of it is natural a lot of it has got to be done by man as well. The river wouldn’t be natural if it wasn’t controlled by man, because it would either flood or dry up. It has got to be natural but it has got to be controlled as well. I’m quite pleased I live here. Int: Is there anything else you would like to add? MsH: I think we have covered everything. I can’t think of anything else. I think water is very important in the countryside, because walking along by a river is much more interesting than just walking over the fields, especially in the different seasons. Int: Well thank you very much for talking to me and I hope the weather keeps good for your walks.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 2 MrsB: This is not really relevant, it is in a way, because I would say that I don’t want the river as much as some people. Therefore, I feel that my point is not as relevant as somebody else who you might want to interview. Int: Well we wanted to interview a cross section of people, all of whom do visit the river at some time, but people who visit very frequently and those that visit less frequently so that we have got a range. How often do you go to the river? MrsB: Because of my busy life not a lot. Int: So the river around here, how often would you go down in say winter and summer? MrsB: Again not as much as I would like to, but I would say winter time the footpaths are not safe enough really. They are not good footpaths in some areas. Int: They are slippery or what’s the problem with them? MrsB: They are slippery and muddy and some of them are very close to the water in some areas. They need to be built up a little more. Maybe Brian is working on this I don’t know. Int: Well you were actually selected at random from our original sample. Int: Well the works were done in 1993/94. MrsB: Well I wasn’t on it then, so I had nothing to do with it, I’m not guilty. Int: Right. Thinking now about the parts of the river also how long have you lived in the village? MrsB: Nearly 30 years, but I have worked most of the time. Int: Thinking about the work that has been done to Oak Weir and Brambridges to restore the bank. MrsB: Do you call it Oak Weir because I think of Oak Weir as Pinkham but Pinkham and Oak Weir are two different parts aren’t they. Int: I have a map here. Here’s Hale Street, here we are East Peckham and Oak Weir, it was this section there that was restored. MrsB: Oh I see it is Little Mill area. I know now. That’s a part I hardly ever walk along so it’s unfair almost even to comment on it. My area I probably walk is the Brambridges up here. If you want to see the river view of the bridge you need to go over the other side of Hale Street. Isn’t it funny when you look at a map it’s so different. Yes you are over here you need to get to the opposite side to where we are now. So yes really I haven’t seen a lot of improvements. You really need to talk to somebody from the Little Mill area for that side.

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Int: But the Brambridges is part of where you walk. Thinking about those works, they were done in 1993/94, so they have been there quite a while. How aware were you of the works being done when they were done? MrsB: I doubt if I was because I was probably still working then and I doubt if I was even aware that they were doing it. I must admit that I am no help there. Int: Thinking of the section from Brambridges in the Oak Weir direction, how successful do you think that section of restoration has been? MrsB: From the Brambridges side they have done a lot of support of the actual riverbank along there, I do know that they have done that. That has made it quite a nice walk. They have opened up an industrial site area as a sort of conservation area and I think that it is quite nice to walk through there in the summer. Unless there is a very good river path you tend not to walk the river path in the winter. We are very rural here so it’s welly boots. Int: Yes rural in the sense that the path is not a made up path? MrsB: Yes that’s right. If you think of some places where the rivers are they are beautiful you can see the clarity of them. That’s the problem with our river, it is not a clear river. Int: In the sense of the water? MrsB: Yes the water. Whether it is the sub soil that causes the discoloration. You look at some rivers and they are lovely and clear, maybe it’s because we are so low in the valley, but it is very muddy. In fact the local interpretation is the Mudway and not the Medway. Int: So thinking about the works they did on the bank near Brambridges, how successful do you think those works were? What effect have they had? MrsB: I think they have done a good bit to hold the river back. Because it is a fast flowing river in that area you get a lot of erosion underneath and we have had fatalities in the village over the years because if you fall in the river you get caught underneath. I think they have done a lot for that but it is a fight against time, you are always trying to mend it and then the water comes and washes it away again. I doubt if you will ever do the whole lot. Int: Do you think they have done enough there or do you think there is more that could be done? MrsB: Can one ever do enough if one is trying to improve something? The answer to that is no, you can always go on and improve. Int: What sort of things would you like to see there then? MrsB: I think just security to the edge of the river where it is so deep in areas so that there is no chance of landslip or if you slip due to erosion underneath. I don’t know if you will ever win, you are fighting it the whole time, you can’t really stop erosion can you, water wears away. Int: That’s true. Thinking about the effects of the scheme, are there any other affects you

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are aware of in terms of conservation, how it looks? MrsB: Well any improvement is good isn’t it. Int: What do you think the overall effect of the scheme was on the way the river looks there and wildlife habitats? Do you think there has been any impact there? MrsB: Wherever you are putting extra plants you are going to encourage habitat, which is always a good thing. With our roadways now we are cutting areas through so we are ruining habitat for our wildlife. Anything that it put there is good, it has to be doesn’t it? Int: Are there any ways in which you think the scheme could have been done better or you would have liked to have seen or would like to see? MrsB: Again, because I don’t do it sufficiently I don’t feel I can comment on that. One could always walk along and say oh they could do that and that would be nice, but maybe next time you go something else has grown there because you hadn’t noticed it the first time. I think you have got to do a river walk regularly to be honest about it. I am not ducking the issue there but I am being fair. Int: That’s OK. What do you think have been benefits of the bank restoration scheme for local people or for other users? MrsB: One think I suppose in restoring the bank is a little bit of help for less flooding. This is a floodable area, and one would hope that if you are restoring river banks you are saving flooding. Int: Any other benefits that you are aware of or you think there are for other people? MrsB: Well pleasant walks always, habitat as we said earlier, anything that improves, and one would hope that you are working towards improving nature, can one improve nature? You can’t. You have got to be aware when you are shifting things that you are not shifting one lot of habitat to another which is not environmentally safe for those particular creatures you are thinking to house. One has seen this at the Zeneka land. They have been very good and they have allowed a lot of growth without spraying. That’s another point you mustn’t spray, but hopefully we are encouraging back the butterflies and general creatures. That answers two questions in one. Int: Did you have any expectations or foreknowledge of the restoration works that were going to be done at Brambridges and elsewhere thinking back? MrsB: It was probably published in the parish magazine or on the local magazine. Again because I was working I wasn’t aware, Int: Do you yourself recall having any expectations or views about what was going to be done or what it was going to be like? MrsB: No because I wasn’t aware of it being done at the time. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the life of the local community and the local landscape, how important do you think it is?

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MrsB: I should imagine for some, river walks, take the dog, boating for some people, especially the bigger boats. It is not safe for swimming, it is not environmentally healthy enough. I hope there is not pollution any more, I think the local people are trying to be very careful not to pollute. There’s rats and things, you are bound to get river rats and things. You get the fisherman, you get the odd lad sitting around and you see them fishing. I have never eaten the fish from the river so I don’t know. Just the beauty I think, water and land together you have got to have the two to see the balance of nature. I think people just can make the most of getting away from the madding crowd if you like. Int: Do you think that the way people use the river was taken into account when they did the work? MrsB: I would very much hope so. Int: But have haven’t got any sense of whether they were thinking about local uses? MrsB: I honestly didn’t know at the time but one would hope. We are 12 good men and 2 who try to do the best we can and from that point of view you can’t please everybody, so we do what we hope is best, what we think or feel is best, and yes I would hope that the advantages are for everybody that uses that area. As I said the Little Mill side is a dear little hamlet on its own. Are you going to see anybody there? Int: Yes. MrsB: I would have thought that you will get a better picture of what you are asking for lots of these questions. Int: Yes, right. Thinking about the river here, do you think that the people in the village think of it as local property and feel a sense of ownership of the river? MrsB: Oh I think so, it’s our river isn’t it. Int: Do you think people feel that way, do you feel that way yourself? MrsB: In as much as you are responsible because it is part of your environment. One would be very up in arms if you saw obvious pollution and that sort of thing, so that’s responsibility yes. I would have thought definitely yes to that point. If we saw the fish dredging on the top we would be all up in arms and say what has happened have they poisoned the fish. Int: Do you think local people feel proud of the river? MrsB: If you are comparing it with some rivers in some areas where you say isn’t it pretty, isn’t that beautiful, I would say that you can’t say that here, although the river is very, very rural, I can’t recall any areas that you could actually sit at the side of the river and picnic. I might be wrong because I haven’t walked the full length. That’s the sort of thing I would like, nice areas where you can actually picnic and things and I can’t recall any of those in this area, but again I might be being very unjust not knowing the full river length. Int: Do you think people in the village feel involved in the river in any way?

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MrsB: It depends on what you are doing. I wasn’t involved when I was working, I am only involved now because of my interests since retiring. I would say a portion are but some only worry if it floods, and that is a problem. No I mean it isn’t a problem now but I think they have coped with a lot of it with muddy water at your front door, that must be very unpleasant. Int: Have you experienced flooding in the village here since you have been living here? MrsB: Oh yes. Int: Where does it flood? MrsB: Well it seems to flood every 10 years. Whether they have done anything at Lye for flooding, further on down the river at Lye they have done flood areas there and whether that has helped I don’t know. But we have lived in the area and seen flooding twice where the main road, where did you come in? Int: I came in on the 2016 I think. MrsB: Yes and you turned right at the T junction, when you turn right again at the public house that has been under water to a depth of 3 or 4 feet to my knowledge but that was about 10 years ago. The other area that floods is Pinkham and that is the village centre there. I believe that in the past year they have had it flooded pretty badly there, but we have not seen it bad there we have only seen it in this area and that was 10 years ago, but I think they have done a lot of works at Lye to prevent this. When you are low down and they open the floodgates and comes across the land,somebody is going to get it aren’t they, there is nowhere to go. If you look at the river now it is pretty high to the banks. I don’t think it is floodable because we haven’t had any red alerts yet. Int: Thinking back to when the works were put in in 1993/94, was there to your knowledge any public consultation? MrsB: Oh do you mean public meetings? I have no idea. Int: Do you feel that local people should be involved when things are done to the river. MrsB: Yes, well in anything. Hopefully the answer is yes they were involved. I wasn’t aware because when we were working we were out at 7 in the morning and back at 6 at night, and you just get indoors then. Int: Right, but your view would be that one should consult people? MrsB: Yes. Int: Perhaps I could go back to what you were mentioning before which was nature and rivers and natural rivers. Can I ask you a general question? What do you think of as a natural river? MrsB: Well here again you have got cross purposes. A natural river is one that is allowed to flow where it will flow, but that can cause problems, so you have to divert it slightly. The

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diversion must be very careful so as not to impinge on other properties. I don’t think you can have a natural river. Int: Do you think we have natural rivers in England? MrsB: I think we are largely natural rivers, I think we only try to divert when the problem is going to cause damage to people. I don’t know, you have to divert a little bit of the river here for the roadway, for the bypass. We have been watching it carefully so it doesn’t disturb it too much, but hopefully that doesn’t cause much of a problem. Yes a natural river cannot be there constantly because it must move on. Int: How natural do you think the Medway is? MrsB: In areas quite a lot. Int: What sort of things make it natural or unnatural? What are the defining features of its naturalness. MrsB: Well naturalness is freedom to flow where it will. The habitat be it plants or creatures to grow where they will. One compensates the other. If you destroy one you are going to destroy the home for the other. Again as I said a natural river cannot be completely natural if people are going to live alongside it all the time. You have got to balance the two. Nature with people. I think a natural pond is a natural one when it has a spring but you have to control it a little bit and likewise the river. So I suppose the answer to that is that it can never be 100% natural river. Int: Thinking about the works done on the Medway down at Brambridges, the works that you know about. How natural do you think the river was before those works and was it more natural after them, or how would you see the works as affecting its naturalness? MrsB: I don’t think they have made a lot of difference to it, they have supported it but they haven’t changed or diverted it. If that’s what you are calling work on the river then they are doing a good job, but then they had a lot of people behind them telling them what to do. I have met Brian Smith and I met Simon who used to be working with him, their hearts are in the right place and their intentions are good, so I think they have made a good job there. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. Do you think that we have? MrsB: How can you tame a river, locks is one way I suppose. You have got to control water because water will control you if you don’t. If you have tamed it for the good then that’s good. What do you mean by taming it? Int: What do you interpret taming as meaning really I’m interested to know how you feel about it? MrsB: I think you have got to control or tame water. A dripping tap will wear away and the same with the river. I think you have got to control it with great care and thought to people and the environment again. So yes they may have tamed it but if they have tamed it for the good then that’s fine. I haven’t seen all areas so I can’t comment whether it is tame. Int: You have mentioned this already, but do you think that controlling a river makes it more

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or less natural? Does it necessarily affect its naturalness? MrsB: It’s bound to affect it’s naturalness, but to live alongside it you have got to. Int: Right. MrsB: Well one answers the other. You can’t live alongside water without controlling it a bit or as I said earlier it will control you. Having seen. If you are living up by a spring in the mountains you can let it run, if you live down the bottom where we are and you have got all that water coming down if you don’t tame it, divert it, control it where are you. We should control it a lot more so that we don’t waste water. Int: That’s an interesting point. MrsB: If you think of Archimedes you can get your water from a to b without any problem, and we have plenty of water, but they haven’t got very much water at the moment and they are telling us we are going to be short of water. If you look along the rivers and control that. This is the water companies that should be putting this to. We should never, ever be without water. It’s putting the money and controlling it from a to b into reservoirs which in the long term would save a lot of money. It would cost a lot of money. They have done a bit of this you know, some points through Yalding way, they have done a lot of work there, taking water off from the rivers I believe. Again I have not been involved in that, it is not in our area. I’m trying to think of the line across from Yalding as far as I know to Gathurst that way, there has been a lot of work alongside the rivers and piping water I believe. As I can see it it would appear that they are taking it down to the reservoirs, but I don’t know. If that’s controlling rivers then that is excellent because it saves us flooding, it’s the overflow from the river and then with the right channels to cleanse the water then we needn’t be short of water. Big thought for the water people there. Int: Yes well it’s an interesting point you made there about the water resources. Thinking about the bank restoration works, how aware were you of the techniques that they used there. MrsB: Well they used a lot of natural canes from the plants and thinks and wove in so that it would be so overgrown eventually that you won’t even notice that it is there. So yes that was good from that point of view. Int: Thinking of what was done there, how scientific do you think the works were? What sort of base of knowledge was used? MrsB: Scientific from whose point of view? Int: Well from your perceptions from the point of view of those doing them, did they have a science base for any of the works? MrsB: As a good farmer does his hedges as they used to do them and this is the principle they appear to have used. This is not science based but they were looking further than that. They were using that technique which is a very simple technique and going on to support the whole environment from that. I don’t know. Int: Thinking about it, what sort of knowledge is needed for doing works of that kind?

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MrsB: What sort of knowledge? Well you have got to have a care and a thought towards the environment you are working on. You must also have a knowledge of rivers and force and gravity. I don’t know. You and I probably couldn’t do it because.. well I don’t know your background, but I would presume to do it because you need to know what you are using where you are cutting a path so as not to damage other plants. Int: How confident did you feel that those who were doing the works knew what they were doing and had the knowledge? MrsB: Well we left it to them didn’t we. I think Brian has a good background of nature, he is a biologist or scientist. I know Simon who worked with him was very caring so he would know which plants he was using and how to plant them. Lou was fairly new to it and I haven’t worked with her, but I would hope that they did a good job. I know that they did a good job on our little bridge over the stream in the village, and that was made out of good solid timber and that is excellent. They came back and restored a little bit of the bolts which weren’t secure enough. That was good job there. I would give them 9 out of 10 for it. Int: You weren’t really aware of the works at the time, but looking back on them, do you think that you are approving of what was done generally? MrsB: I think so. It hasn’t devastated the area so it must have improved it. So I would hope so yes. Int: Were you aware of the alternatives that might have been done there, the kind of bank restoration techniques they could have used? MrsB: You are talking about Brambridges aren’t you. What were the alternatives? Int: Well they could have used rock filled cages, what they call gadian cages, and build the bank up with those. MrsB: I thought they had done that in some areas? Int: They have done it elsewhere; I think they used some of those and in Tonbridge. MrsB: I am trying to think where I have seen it and it was in Tonbridge. I think they might have done it in xxx as well, but I would have thought that kind of thing is more secure. I was thinking here we had the bridge collapsed about 10 years ago. We had a baby bridge for ages because the solid stone bricks actually moved and were in danger of collapsing so we had that for several months while they repaired it. I would imagine that they used the cage type of things there. I don’t know this is something I have no knowledge of but I would have thought that kind of foundation has to be used. In any river you have the river bed and the silt and the mud etc. so you have to go a long way down. Watching them put the new bridge over was wonderful watching them because they used pile drivers into the river bed and pumped it out. We have watched that over a period of time. That’s a different kind of science again, engineering science. Int: Well I mean bank restoration is an engineering science as well.

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MrsB: I suppose it has to be doesn’t it. It is something if you have no knowledge of you don’t really think about it you just see it being done. Int: But the village has been interested in the works. Mrs B: Very much so we have fought for this bypass for 20 years. We nearly lost it last year and we fought again and got it. If you came down from the 2019 there is now the 228. As you came down the T junction and turned off to the left where the cones are that is the beginning of the bypass. If you were there between 8 and 9 in the morning it could take you anything up to 20 minutes to get from that corner because it would be right back up the road. Hopefully now that we have got the bypass you can come round the roundabout and keep moving. I think 2 or 3 people didn’t want the bypass. One is a gentleman where they actually took his front garden right away but they built him a nice new bungalow back further where he wanted it and another one who will be enclosed a little more, instead of having nice views he will have the bypass. But it is the majority that he has to give way to. This is life and you have to back down sometimes. Int: I must go and have a look at it. That’s interesting. MrsB: Yes you must go and see it, yes that’s engineering science too if you like, meccano sets with a difference. Int: Is there anything else you would like to add about the river or the village and how they feel about the river? Do you think there is much conflict between different kinds of users of the rivers, boaters, walkers, fishermen, is this an issue. MrsB: I don’t know. You will always have people with different rules but I think as a village we are pretty accommodating. Hopefully no. Somebody else enters the conversation. MrsB: Do you think there is any conflict on the river? Between the uses of the rivers. Mr: Not any more, there used to be when they had the races. MrsB: Oh that was the only kind. We used to have the raft races here, they were brilliant. Mr: That was when we first came into the village. MrsB: That was not conflict, that was a friendly fight to raise money for charity. I don’t know why they don’t do that anymore, we must see if we can get it started again. It started off where you built your own raft. Mr: I have seen one or two fishing so they must be catching fish somewhere. MrsB: Since they started building that bank up, Brambridges where they are building the bank up. Were you aware of how they built that up. Mr: Was it wildwood?

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MrsB: Yes it was. Mr: A good job whoever did it. It stopped the bank from washing away. We haven’t had any drownings in there for a long time have we? MrsB: I think the last one was a local boy. Mr: That’s going back 20 years or more maybe. MrsB: We lost Shirley’s boy over at Yalding. That was his own fault he was trying to swim across and got caught in the weeds. He chose to swim across, that wasn’t due to falling in accidentally. Int: Anything else you would like to add about the river. I think we have covered most of the questions. MrsB: I think we have covered most of the river. Int: Well thank you very much indeed.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 20 MrJ: We lived at Little Mill on the River Bourne just out side the village, we always used to get the floods along there. Int: Did the Bourne go up there then? MrJ: Yes it runs right past. Int: Right. MrJ: Then they put a new weir in and that took a lot of the trouble away. Other than that they just had the old sluice gates there. If I remember rightly they put the underwater sluice there. Int: Can I ask how often you visit the river and how you use it? MrJ: I go fishing there and I ride around on the footpath. Int: Do you go independently or do you belong to a club? MrJ: I belong to a club. Int: Which one is that? MrJ: The Paddock Wood up by Oak Weir, so that’s our water along there, but I like to go up to Golden Green. Int: Do you recall the works that were done on the river at Oak Weir and at Branbridges? MrJ: At Branbridges yes, the replanting and building up of the banks. At Oak Weir they have really tidied it up, it’s really nice there. Int: I would really like to know if you saw those works when they were going in? MrJ: I didn’t actually see it in progress no, not at Oak Weir. I saw them doing the work at Branbridges from the road. Int: What did you think about it while they were doing the work down there? Did you have any views on it then? MrJ: No problems at all, they seemed to know what they were doing, it came out all right. Int: I was going to ask you how successful do you think those two schemes have been. MrJ: Quite successful I would say. Int: In what sort of ways do you think they have been successful? MrJ: They have cleared the paths. When joan and I went down the other stretch last

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year, the other side of Arnolds was pretty rough, on the Yalding stretch. There are not many places you can take a pushchair through. It’s not like a towpath as such, it’s not classed as a towpath. That’s where they used to have the horses going along pulling the barges. So I don’t know the classification, I think it is a footpath going along there. How do you class it? Int: It is a footpath. I suppose in time gone by it might have been a towpath. MrJ: I don’t think it carried much barge work along there. There’s no stretch along there that you could call a towpath. Int: You were saying that you think the works were reasonably successful, in what ways do you think? MrJ: Cleaning, where the banks were collapsed and the banks had fallen away there has been a lot of rebuilding. Where it hasn’t been rebuilt they have made a footpath around the obstruction. It has been signposted quite well. There could be a little more signposting I think. The two signs are there, the river floodgate and the other one is a footpath sign I believe, but it doesn’t say where to or where from. I went up there the day before yesterday and I went from the Iron Bridge down towards Branbridges on the footpath, and all of a sudden bang it is blocked, work being carried out on locks, so the footpath is closed for another month or so, and all it said is diversion pointing back to where we have just come from with a footpath number. Anybody who hasn’t got the footpath numbers or a map would not know where they were going. MrsJ: You were saying that they would come up on the road, go along the road and then go back down again to get around that lock. MrJ: No what I am saying is if they had come in from this end, Snoll Hatch or Tonbridge, and want to go to Branbridges they come up the footpath and then in front of them the footpath is diverted, pointing back the other way, but there is no indication of where it is going to. No way to get to Branbridges. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, what do you think were the main benefits for local people in those works? MrsJ: Safety I would have said. MrJ: Yes safety and a general clean up. Oak Weir looked very nice. There used to be a weir pool and it was all bitty, not it looks really nice and clean. That’s it. Int: Any other benefits that you can think of? MrJ: Not really no. Int: How about the wildlife or general appearance? MrJ: No that hasn’t altered. Well how can you alter it, let’s face it. You can’t. There are brambles and hedgerows and if you start trimming it up and make it look like a park that’s no good to anybody. You just want raw nature. Well I do.

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Int: What part would you say that the river plays in the life of the local community? How important is the river to the local people here, and to yourself? MrJ: Not a lot. Of a summer’s evening or a nice summer day families might say let’s go for a walk down to the river, but it is not a hive of activity is it. MrsJ: No more people go to Yalding. There is the restaurant there and things like that. MrJ: Well the village people don’t, and then again you wouldn’t want a restaurant around here. MrsJ: Oh no. Int: What part does it play in your life? How important is the river to you? MrJ: Well living on the river for many years, it is just there. It is a nice place to go fishing, and now I have retired I like going down there. Int: How much do you fish in the Medway and how much do you fish elsewhere? Do you still fish regularly? MrJ: I fish elsewhere, but when I don’t want to go any distance I just go down to the Medway. Int: It is good fishing there? MrJ: Not bad. Int: What do you get in the river? MrJ: Chubb, Bream, Dace, quite a selection, but like all fishermen they just want to sit there and have the tranquillity, that’s all it is. I can’t think of anything else, or how you could improve it, except for better signing for other people. Int: When they did the works on the river, do you think they took into account the way local people use the river and what they do there? MrJ: I don’t get the question. Int: When they did the work, do you think they were aware of how people use the river and do you think they took that into account? MrJ: No they had a job to do to build up the banks, were they landscaping, I don’t know. I know that they planted willows where they built the banks up. MrsJ: Did they do the stiles? MrJ: No I don’t think there are any new stiles.

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MrsJ: That’s one thing I think is wrong. MrJ: For older people or young mums with pushchairs because you can’t get over them. MrsJ: Also people on bicycles, but then you shouldn’t be riding them on the footpath anyway. Int: Are you a cyclist? MrJ: Yes. Int: I notice there are lots of cyclists in this village. MrJ: Oh yes, well you cover more ground that way. It saves money on petrol as well. None of those paths are any good for a pushchair, not one piece of it. I can’t see a young mum taking all her family down with the pushchair. Did you used to take the twins? MrsJ: Yes I did, that’s why I say that. The paths have got narrower and you can’t cope with them. That’s why I think you should have wider paths for young mums to take their pushchairs down there. Do they upkeep the paths or is it just people walking along? Int: There is some work done on the paths, but I don’t think there is a lot. MrJ: No I was right there. It is mainly bank work. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, was there any consultation about those works. MrJ: Not that I know of. Int: How do you feel about that? Do you think people should have been consulted? MrJ: No. What do local people know about it? I don’t think it concerns the local people. If the bank is unsafe, the river authority know it is unsafe and it is their job to get the job done. Local people don’t need consulting about things like that. If it is a danger it has got to be done. So there you go. Int: Can I ask you a general question. What do you think a natural river is like? What is your idea of a natural river? MrJ: A natural river to me is people sitting on the bank fishing, wildlife and not boats going backwards and forwards. Int: Do you think the boats detract from the natural scene? MrJ: Yes, but then again that is what the river is for, getting from A to B whether you have a boat or not. Int: How about the locks and things. Do you think they detract from its naturalness?

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MrJ: No I think that is a part of the river. I mean when we go down we always get off and have a look at the water rattling through the weir and things like this. It doesn’t distract at all the locks. Int: When you think of the Medway, do you think of the Medway as a natural river? MrJ: Yes, parts of it. Int: What sorts of features of it make parts of it natural? MrJ: The trees and the enclosures of it, the wildness I suppose. That’s why the paths don’t need opening up too much. As Joan said, the young mums need to get their pushchairs along there, but it doesn’t need to be concrete or tarmac like it is in Tonbridge. If you go along the river in Tonbridge the footpaths are man made and that isn’t a wild river. I don’t think there could really be much alteration to it. Int: Do you think the works they did at Branbridges and Oak Weir made it more or less natural, or didn’t they really affect the naturalness? MrJ: I don’t think it really affected the naturalness. I was quite impressed with the cleanliness and the way they have cleaned up Oak Weir. But then you get the floods come up and it starts to clog up the banks then you will be back to square one. You will never stop that. Int: You have had some quite high water haven’t you? MrJ: Oh yes, but water can be a cleansing agent to take the rubbish away. I can’t think of anything else. Int: Thinking about works to restore rivers, we are studying two other rivers and they have had quite radical works on them to put back the meanders and take away the harsh man made banks and so forth, and endeavour to make them more natural. Do you think we can restore nature and make rivers more natural in that way, what’s your view on that? MrJ: I don’t think you can. There were some nasty riverbanks collapsed, that’s in a natural river. That’s making it dangerous for people to go along there. The repairing of the bank is a good thing, because where the banks have collapsed people have gone around quite a way and you could not get near the river, so you never had your walk along the riverbank. I think that’s about all I can say about it. Int: Some people say that we have tamed or controlled our rivers, what do you think about that idea? MrJ: Well we have to a certain extent. There are the automatic locks, they have stopped the flooding. Before the automatic locks were put in there were everlasting floods. When the put the locks in you get high water, but you don’t get the floods through the village like you used to. So that’s a good thing. I can’t think of anything else. Int: You have known the Medway a good while. Has it changed much over the period you have known it?

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MrJ: No not in this area. I am talking about from Yalding to Golden Green. That hasn’t altered hardly at all. Int: So you think it is really quite a constant feature? MrJ: Yes. Int: How about over the seasons, how does it change over the year, or is it constant over the seasons? MrJ: Well you get the winter view, the summer view and spring view. In fact this would be anywhere, not just the river Medway. You get a change in landscapes, but that is nothing that the man or workers can do, that is just nature. Int: Perhaps I can ask you how much of the river you know, you obviously know quite a big stretch locally. Do you know it beyond to Tonbridge or Maidstone? MrJ: No not a lot. I used to know it, but not now. We used to have a little boat to go up to Tonbridge, but I can’t see how that has altered much. You are still going through the same land, there haven’t been any build ups along it. Int: So you have been on the boat up to Tonbridge. Do you know beyond Tonbridge at all? MrJ: No, they have made that a flood plane now haven’t they? Int: How about towards the Thames, do you know the river heading down towards Rochester way? MrJ: No. As far as xxx our limit. Int: So a good stretch then. Thinking about the River Medway do you think it is a typical river or do you think it is a special river? MrJ: A typical river I would think. I mean the River Severn was very similar to the Medway. Typical I would think, nothing special. Int: I was just wondering how you see it in comparison with other rivers. MrsJ: I see it as a narrow river because the Thames at Henley is so wide and touristy, whereas here is a nice quiet country river, well our section anyway. Int: Thinking about the works that were done, do you think that the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir were based on scientific knowledge? Do you feel confident that they knew what they were doing? MrJ: Well I didn’t think about it one little bit, but they know what they are doing. Somebody must be in charge and they are not going to waste all that money on giving it to a man to make work for him. The people that are working on the river must know what they

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are doing to strengthen the banks or whatever. Int: So do you have confidence that the people who manage the river know about the river and what they are doing. MrJ: Well they know a damn sight more than I do about managing it. Every man to his job I should think. Int: Right, so you haven’t found any reason to wonder or criticise? MrJ: No I don’t see how you can criticise. I mean what is their job consisting of. Making good the banks, pulling out the roughness and that’s it surely. MrsJ: We haven’t looked at it and thought what the hell have they done that for, that was a waste of time. MrJ: No we haven’t. Int: Well that’s good. So it is money well spent then? MrJ: Well it is money that has got to spent, if only from a safety factor. I don’t know how many people use that river as a walk, there can’t be many. MrsJ: Well I was going to say there must be quite a few or the footpath wouldn’t stay open it would get overgrown and you wouldn’t be able to go through it at all. MrJ: Well I don’t know. MrsJ: I don’t mean keep it open from a fishing point of view, I mean keeping it open as they are walking trampling the grass down. I haven’t been there this year, but I know last year the paths looked well walked, even one that we had to follow that made a bit detour because you couldn’t go along the bank where it had collapsed. MrJ: Well this is what I am saying. MrsJ: Well that was well trodden. We started to follow what we thought was a path and came back again. MrJ: Well what are the signs. You have got the Medway Valley walk coming through here and what is the other one there are two. Int: Well there are some signs put up by the Medway River Project, and there is also the Wealdway crossing, there’s also the ordinary footpath markers I think. MrJ: They want to get their act together. Int: You think it is a bit confusing? MrJ: Exactly. The signposts and the markings, it is all very good having the Medway walk or river walk, but I have seen no signs anywhere telling me what is this Medway Valley

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walk. They could have had a little note to tell you about it. The other one where the work was going on at the Weir where they have blocked the footpath, they have given you the number of the footpaths, but let’s face it how many people have maps with the footpath numbers or where they go to. We have got one, but you need to make head or tale of the numbers. Int: So your main point is that you think the footpath marking could be clearer? MrJ: Yes. It is all right for us we live in the area and we know Golden Green is that way and Tonbridge is that way, Yalding is that way, but then again it is so easy to get off a footpath and finish up in Joe Bloggs back yard and he saying what are you doing on my land. Int: Have you got any other comments you would like to make about the river? MrJ: No I don’t think so. Int: Well thank you very much for your time.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 22 MrK: Yes I have boyhood memories of the river as well. Int: Nowadays how often do you visit the river? MrK: Most days because of walking my dog actually. Int: Which bits do you visit? MrK: Well my closest bit is Stilstead up towards Oak Weir and on fine days usually I do a round trip. I walk like a continuous walk along by the Bourne to Wagon Bridge and along the River Medway back up to Stilstead Bridge and back up to here. It’s a nice walk. It takes about 35 minutes. Int: You must be familiar with the works that were done at Oak Weir. MrK: Not too familiar with it, but I knew they went on. I don’t always go that way, it’s usually between Stilstead and Wagon Bridge actually, which takes in the back of Whitebreads. Int: How about Branbridges. They did some works at Branbridges. Do you go down that end? MrK: I have only ever been down to have a look at the construction work at the Pinkhams Locks at the moment, there are some major works there. But you are talking about the riverbank along Branbridges are you? Int: Yes that’s right. MrK: I only knew about that when it was pointed out to me by the last researcher. I don’t get down that far. Int: Were you aware of the Oak Weir one going on before, or as it was going in? MrK: I saw much of the work that was going on up there over the years. There has been some major works done there over many years actually. Int: What sort of things? MrK: Well they have done the riverbank. I knew what they did there with the woven work and what they have been trying to do around the Oak Weir basin. They have been trying to regulate the flow of the river there over the years, but not too successfully. Yes Int: Oh yes. MrK: I think that one has probably been successful. It takes the energy out of the water apparently.

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Int: The works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, the bank restoration works with the willow etc. How successful do you think they have been? MrK: From what I have seen it seems to be successful. It seems to be a proven method, but I don’t know. Int: From your point of view how successful do you think they have been? MrK: Fairly successful I should think. It looks it. Int: In what sort of way do you think they have been successful? MrK: Well it hasn’t collapsed. I am not too sure whether they did it just for the bank or to stop the river from re-diverting. You can see the work that has been done on the river and I can only assume that it is to try to stop the river from changing its course, which they try to do with the meandering and so on. Int: What do you think has been the most important benefit of those works for local people? MrK: Just access really. Int: Somewhere to walk?. MrK: Yes and it protects it for the future. Int: Did you see them actually working? MrK: Yes I saw some of it. It is going back a few years now. Int: Yes in 1993/94 they did it. MrK: They dredged the river at the same time because it was silting up in large parts and it would have been inaccessible for boats coming up etc. Int: Thinking about those works, any other benefits that you see there might be for local people? MrK: Not really. Possibly the works they do on keeping the river clear and clean and obviously for flood control I assume. Anything that is done in looking after the river can only be good. That’s another important aspect for anything they do on the river. Int: Yes well you have lived here a long time so you will have known a lot about it. Did you experience flooding when you were younger? MrK: Regularly in my childhood days I remember this used to flood regularly around here. That was prior to the automatic sluice that has been put in down by the pub. That is one of the first automatic sluices that was put in this area. Int: That has safeguarded this area has it?

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MrK: Yes. We had major flooding in 1968 when the whole area was flooded. Int: Have you personally been flooded? MrK: Yes. Int: You have. When was that? MrK: That was in 1968. Int: Was that up here in Little Mill? MrK: Yes it was. Tonbridge and the whole area was affected particularly bad. Int: How long did that go on for? MrK: Two or three days actually. Int: How long did the aftermath of clearing up take? MrK: It was not a very pleasant experience. It took many years because all the wood rots. There was quite a bit of damp for a while. Water hits very fast and we are well aware of the damage it can do. Int: Thinking back to those works at Oak Weir and Branbridges, you mentioned that you might have seen the works going in at Oak Weir. What did you think about the work that was going on? Did you have any views on it? MrK: No. I think it was obviously necessary because when they are dredging the river, they actually did the bank at the same time, and they actually had bulldozers going down into the river. It was quite fascinating to see how they did it. They were building a bridge across the river and with it running very low they can only do it at certain times of the year and it is quite interesting seeing the contractors at work. I didn’t see too much of the riverbank work, but I did notice the work they did along the river itself. Where it is silting up you don’t see that when the river is up, but when the river is drained out you can see how dangerous it can become. Int: Right. What, if any, part does the river play in the lives of local people do you think? MrK: Just for recreation as such, it is there. I am always pleased it is there, it’s a local walk and it is something that is admired by everybody and it is a place of natural beauty really, something that belongs to us all. To me it is very important. Int: I was going to ask you whether you thought that local people see the river as their river? MrK: A lot of them do. You see ramblers coming along and you pass people who remark on the area. We feel quite proud we live in such a nice area. We have got this natural

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environment. Int: You have obviously known the river a long time, is that part of it do you think? MrK: Oh yes probably. Int: You mentioned that you knew it as a child MrK: Yes indeed, I actually learnt to swim in the river. Int: Did you, where did you go swimming? MrK: You have been along there have you? You have seen where they call Wagon Bridge, it’s basically an island there and there is a backwater that goes around. One part of it is a bit like a basin there and there used to be a shallow part we could go in and out. Int: What else did you get up to when you were young? MrK: Well the camping up there and building fires, all local youngsters. Fishing of course, I enjoyed fishing as a boy. Int: Thinking of the works that were done, do you think the way that local people use the river was taken into account when the works were done? MrK: I’m not too sure when you say how local people use the river. I’m not too sure how many really appreciate it. Most of us dog walkers appreciate it. Int: Do you think that local people were consulted at all when the works were carried out. Were you aware of any consultation? MrK: I wasn’t aware of any. Int: What do you think about that? Do you think that local people should have been consulted or how do you feel about it? MrK: Not necessarily if it is essential works. Only if it jeopardised their daily life. You can understand if the Water Board were saying we need to carry out essential works and we are going to turn your water off, that’s probably when you need to be consulted. If it is part of what you spend on your rates then it is something you can see it is tangible. You don’t see much of the expenditure. Int: That’s true. Perhaps I can ask you a general question. What do you think a natural river would be like? What’s your idea of a natural river? MrK: Very close to what we see there. Int: What sort of things about that make it natural for you? MrK: There’s no built up areas on it as such. The closest you come to anything like that is where there are locks and things.

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Int: Any other features of it that make it natural for you? MrK: Not really I can’t put it into words. Int: Thinking of the works that were done, do you think they made it more natural or less natural or really didn’t affect it? What impact did those works have? MrK: This is the embankment as such you are speaking about is it? Int: Yes. MrK: It looked like a method that was probably experimented with, or actually used in bygone ages really, rather than concrete slabs being put along there. It probably allowed the river to silt up naturally and the bank to bed itself in naturally. That was the impression I got. Instead of an artificial canal it was making the river go back to its natural course really. That’s why I believe they did it that way. Whether it is a very effective way of doing it I don’t know. Int: You haven’t got any views on that? MrK: No I haven’t got any real views on that. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers and controlled them. What do you think about that? MrK: I think we have yet, but I don’t see that as a bad thing after being flooded. Since the flood control relief system in Tonbridge, the Lye Flood Barrier, the river has been controlled. The river obviously needs taming as it can be extremely wild, particularly a few times a year when the level is up and it is lapping the banks. It can look pretty awful, it doesn’t look very tame then. Int: You were saying that you consider the Medway to be natural? MrK: Yes although it is attached in a lot of ways for people to use for recreation. There are a number of boats that come up there and the damage caused by them. Of course the water board how much they take out as well. I think they take the limit out in certain places. Int: What for water supplies? MrK: Yes. Int: How about the locks. Do you think they make it more or less natural? MrK: Well they obviously make it less natural, you wouldn’t know what a river was like in its natural state. It would probably try to change course all the time. This is why they did the work at Oak Weir, the river was actually trying to change its course, which is what happens in the river naturally, but you would lose the river if it did. I accept what happens actually. I don’t see some of the work that goes on as a major problem.

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Int: Right. Thinking about the works that were done, do you think that there was a scientific basis of knowledge behind those works? MrK: I am sure there was. Int: How much confidence did you have in the people that did those works, that they knew what they were doing? MrK: Obviously they knew more than I did, but some of the works that have been done in the past, the river is powerful and a part of nature, they are not always successful and are always up against it anyway, because they are fighting a natural element. I am confident in the fact that they do have years of experience in what they are trying to do. Are you asking this question because you have come across people who don’t know what they are trying to do? Int: No we are just interested to know whether people think they do. It isn’t that people have raised the matter that they don’t, we are just interested to have the views of people because we thought there might be some people who had doubts. MrK: With the force of the river at times you can be really battling against a really powerful element there. Int: But from your observation of the works at Oak Weir, how do you think they have stood up to the river? MrK: I believe they seem to have controlled it up there at the moment with that new stepping system. Int: As well as the bank restoration. MrK: Where the basin is as well they have spent a lot of money there over the years to try and stop the river from going into that direction. I don’t know if you are aware of that? Int: Yes. I wasn’t aware that the particularly tried to control that. MrK: They had tried once unsuccessfully. They poured a lot of money into there to build up the banks over that far basin side. There is a stepping stone bit where it comes through the other sluice. That is another area where that was an automatic sluice that has never worked too well. Where it pours through there they have put in concrete pillars in the water, where it rushes through to take away the energy in the river. Int: Right. Well you have probably seen the river in its forceful moments. MrK: Yes you see it like that every year. Int: It was quite high wasn’t it before Christmas. MrK: Yes it was when we had that long spell of rain. They controlled it very well from that flood barrier they know the limit to let through and they controlled it. It is pretty powerful. If work isn’t done right then it will certainly be swept away.

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Int: You have known the river around here for a long time, do you think the river has changed much over the time you have known it? MrK: Very little I would say. I have seen very little change. Probably less woodland around, but that’s farming in general. Int: The river itself and the banks hasn’t changed has it? MrK: Accessibility has stayed the same. Int: Right. Can I ask you how much of the river you know? How far in either direction do you know? MrK: My best known parts are from Oak Weir to Pinkham Locks. Int: Do you know it at all in the Tonbridge direction or beyond? MrK: I obviously know it all the way into Maidstone, because we had a boat for some years and we used to travel the stretch between here and Maidstone up to the Medway Bridge. Int: Right. How about around Chatham. Do you know anything about that area? MrK: I went through that area and I know the course of the river but I don’t know it that well. Int: Do you know it towards the sea? MrK: Oh yes. Int: So you really know quite the full extent of it. How did you get to know the upper parts of the river? MrK: Only by taking the boat up past the Medway Bridge and the Strood area. I have actually got friends from down there as well. Int: I see so you have connections over there. Beyond Tonbridge do you know the river at all there? MrK: Very little beyond Tonbridge. You are getting into Edenbridge. I don’t know it too well up into the upper reaches. Int: Right. Thinking about the Medway, do you think of the Medway as a special river, or do you think it is really a typical lowland river? How do you think about it? MrK: It is a large river, it is the main river of Kent. I have been fishing before in a few of the smaller rivers towards Hastings way, Sussex and towards Rye, but they are very much more gentle and more timid up against the Medway. The Medway is a major river. Int: Right. Are there any other things that you would like to tell me about the Medway

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or points you would like to add? MrK: Not that I can think of. Int: I am trying to think if there are any other things we haven’t talked about. I think we have covered most of the points I wanted to. You mentioned that you fish, do you fish now? MrK: No I haven’t recently. Int: And did you fish the Medway? MrK: Yes mainly towards the Maidstone area and the odd lake or two with my son. We used to go down as far as the Nursery Canal down at Rye. Int: Right, oh well that’s how you get to know rivers. OK well unless there is anything else you would like to add. It was nice to talk to someone who has lived in the village a good while and has known the river a long time. MrK: You tend to probably take it for granted that it is there, but I do appreciate it being there. Water is fascinating to man whether it is a river or the sea. Int: Yes that’s true. MrK: It is something that is natural and cannot always be tamed as such. Int: Well you have obviously seen it in its untamed moments. MrK: Yes I have. Int: Well thank you very much for talking to me.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 23 Int: How much do you visit the river? MrsL: Quite a lot because we have got a dog. We walk him because there are all footpaths by the side and we go down there quite a lot. More before we had the baby because I take her out in the pram now. But having said that there are tracks so I can go out with the pram down to the river. Int: Which sort of ways to you go to the river? What is your usual walk? MrsL: Well if I am walking with Hannah I tend to go down Stilstead which is a track and then come to the big bridge. If I haven’t then we tend to go down there and do a big circuit, and you meet the tributary of the River Bourne, which is just outside here. We do a big circuit which borders on the hop farm land and back round, or we got the other way down and then towards the big weir, on which they are doing some work at the moment. Sometimes if you go down Stilstead and keep going you come to the river and there’s a lock there. That’s quite a nice walk because you can walk right along through some farmland and back, you come out at Golden Green. Int: So you have got quite a lot of walks. Do you recall the works that were done at Oak Weir? Do you ever walk in the Oak Weir direction? MrsL: Is that the one over. Int: That is if you go down to the river and turn right, it is further along. MrsL: Where the lock is. Int: I will show you on the map. There’s the track down and Oak Weir is just here. The work there was some years back in 1993/94. They did some bank restoration work there. MrsL: I can’t remember the actual work being done. Int: What I was thinking of was the path just beyond Oak Weir. MrsL: It has obviously been redone because it is gravelled. Int: You do walk along there do you? MrsL: Yes. Int: Looking at the path as it is now, how successful do you think that bank restoration work has been? MrsL: I think it is lovely. I don’t know what it was like before, but I think it is lovely and the work they have obviously done is very good. The path is very good there. Int: Were you aware of what kind of work they did there and how they did it?

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MrsL: No. Int: They did something quite special. They used traditional techniques and natural materials. They used bundles of faggots to build up the banks. MrsL: Yes you can see them Int: The other place where they did some bank restoration work was just along the bank from Branbridges under the bridge there where the path comes down from the bridge. Do you walk along there at all? MrsL: Not really. Int: So are you aware of those works at all? MrsL: No. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Oak Weir, what do you think were the main benefits of those works for local people. MrsL: I think it has made it safer for people to walk down, because the paths tend to be wider where they have done the work. I didn’t know it before, but with that area subject to some erosion there has been some bank erosion in other parts of the river, which makes it quite tricky sometimes. It is OK if it is just you and a dog, but there are parts that I am wary of going with my baby on my back or something. So it makes it safer and it looks nice. I think they are the main benefits. Int: Perhaps you could say what part the river plays in your life, and what part do you think it plays in the life of local people generally? Do you have any sense of that? MrsL: Well for us it is lovely because it is an interesting place to walk the dog, you are not just going over fields as such. The dog loves it because he goes in the river. You get lots of lovely wildlife in the summer, there’s a kingfisher that you sometimes see down there and the swans and cygnets in the summer. That’s really nice to see all the wildlife. We tend to see it quite a lot because of walking the dog and we meet quite a lot of other people mainly who have got dogs. There are also some ramblers. I don’t really know about local people. I think maybe they go down there more if they have got a dog or if they have children or something. We love it. Has that answered your question? Int: Yes. Did you know about the river when you chose the house? MrsL: No. Well we obviously knew there was a river there and I knew that it joined the Medway but we didn’t walk up it or anything before we bought the house. Int: So it wasn’t a factor in choosing it? MrsL: No I wouldn’t say so. But having said that it is a benefit. Int: Do you think when they did the works at Oak Weir the kind of use that local people

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make of the river was taken into account when they did them? MrsL: I don’t know what it was like before so I don’t know but probably. Int: Do you think that local people have a sense of ownership of the river or feel attached to it, or part of their property as it were? MrsL: No not really. Int: How about you? Do you feel attachment? MrsL: I think I would certainly voice my opinion if they did something that I really didn’t like. If they built something hideous down there or spoilt it in some way. I think we are lucky to have it and it is a benefit. I don’t think I feel ownership as such, but I care what happens to it and what they do. Int: Are you aware of any consultation that went on to do with the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir. This may not be appropriate because you were only just moving in when they were completing the works? MrsL: I don’t know. Int: How do you feel about things like that? Do you think that local people should be consulted about works of that kind? MrsL: Yes I do because it is their environment. If you were building a car park right next to their house they would be consulted like that. It’s like planning permission, you are always consulted if there is local planning permission in the area, so it is a similar thing really because it affects your environment. Yes I think they should be consulted. Int: Can I ask you something rather more general about rivers? What’s your concept or idea of a natural river? What would you look for in a natural river? MrsL: I don’t know. One that hasn’t had any human intervention I suppose. But then I suppose they all do these days. I don’t really know enough about rivers really to comment. Int: How about the Medway? Do you see the Medway here as a natural river? How natural do you think it is? MrsL: I don’t know. I would say not very but I don’t know. I don’t know why I think it is not very natural. Int: What sort of things do you think would make it not natural? MrsL: Well there are locks on it and things and that is not natural. There are weirs and things and I think there are some flood prevention things, which aren’t natural, but then these flood prevention things are good. There is one that saved us recently I think. Int: Was that just before Christmas when the river was quite high. There is also an automatic sluice isn’t there.

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MrsL: Yes it actually floods the ground at Penthurst Place I believe up towards Hildenborough. There is some sort of flood prevention thing that floods some land instead of it flooding here. Int: Did you see the river up. MrsL: Yes we have seen it high a few times but yes it was very high. We knew from when we bought the house when the survey was done, the house has been flooded before previous to that. Having spoken to people who have lived here for years and years the river had flooded. That is obviously an important intervention. Int: Right. Thinking about rivers in general again, some people say that we have tamed our rivers or controlled them. What do you think about that do you think we have? MrsL: I think we have because we need to. There are so many towns that are built up around rivers and to prevent flooding and damage and a lot of property, and even loss of life and stuff it is probably a necessity in modern life I think. Int: Do you think there are any rivers that we haven’t tamed that are natural rivers? MrsL: I don’t know enough about rivers to say really. Int: Right. Thinking about the works that were done, do you feel that the people who did those works were using scientific knowledge to do the works in the way they did? MrsL: I am sure they did. Int: How much confidence do you have in the people who manage the river here? MrsL: I would assume that they know what they are doing and they are experts in this. The work that I have seen is nice. So yes I have got confidence. Int: Right. Can I ask you about how much of the River Medway you know. You obviously know the bits that we have talked about round here. Do you know any other bits? MrsL: Well I work at Medway up in Rochester, and I cover all the Medway towns so that is the estuary really. I know not a lot about it but a little. That’s about it really. I know where it goes through Tonbridge. Int: How about Maidstone. Do you know the river in Maidstone? How extensively have you walked along the river? MrsL: At Teston it’s the Medway and we have walked around there. I wouldn’t say that we have walked miles, we tend to just stay here. I know Maidstone a little bit, but I don’t know an awful lot about the river. Int: How about by Tonbridge, do you know that at all? MrsL: No. Thinking about it I don’t even know the route of it.

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Int: Well it goes quite a long way I think. Thinking about the river over the period you have known it and back when you were in Kent before, do you think it has changed much over the period you have known the River Medway? MrsL: The main period whilst I have been living here do you mean? Int: Yes. MrsL: No I don’t think it has changed all that much. They have done some other work along, some bank restoration work to try and stop the erosion, which I am aware of. I know they are doing some work down towards Branbridges where the big weir is, but I haven’t been down there since they have been doing that, so I don’t know what they are doing there. It hasn’t changed all that much. Int: How do you think about the Medway? Do you think of it as a typical lowland river or do you think of it as a special river? How does it compare with other rivers? MrsL: I have never lived near a river really or known rivers in my life, so I would say it was pretty typical. The only other river I have studied was the Cookmere when I was at school, and that was quite a while ago now and I can’t remember much about that. Int: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add about the River Medway. MrsL: No not really. I don’t think so. Int: We have probably covered all the main issues. Thank you very much.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 24 MrM: We have taken time out to have a walk along the river. We have actually walked down to Yalding and all the way back and carried on. We came out at, I’m not sure if they call it Wagon Bridge, but it brings you out at Little Mill. It’s the Barn Street side of Little Mill by Stilstead Hatch, so we walked the length of that. There is a bit of it that you can’t actually get to at the moment, partly because of the work that is being done at Pinkham, we call it Pinkham, you call it Sluice Weir. Int: Well I do call it Pinkham now because everybody calls it Pinkham. MrM: In the River Authority they call it Sluice Weir. They are doing some work there. I haven’t bothered to go and have a look at what they are doing, other than the fact that the theory is that they are changing them or doing something with them as part of the downstream control, or however you like to view it. A lot of work has been done along the riverbank. It’s really quite amazing what they do and I am surprised that they can do it and leave it quite neat. There is still a lot to be done. One of the things that did stagger us, we were really quite surprised. If you walk down here and you cross over the bypass, at the moment you just cross the bypass but eventually you will have to go on a route march to go up over that bridge because it’s the wrong way around. They have actually put the bridge in the wrong way round, they don’t know that yet, stupid people. Anyway you carry on and there’s a road, which goes to Medway View, and it actually crosses the railway. Along that road there is a footpath that goes down between the sewage works and storage area for the sand and gravel. If you go down that footpath then you have got to go over little elevator things. They are like little bridges that they have built over the elevators. That bit has now been filled in but it was wet, now it is dry because of all the backfill. Eventually you cross the railway line, there’s a footpath across the railway line, there’s the backfill railway line that was put in for Club by British Rail. You cross over that and then you come to the proper crossing of the railway line, down some steps and up the other side, over the railway line down the other side and then the river is in front of it. There is this rickety bridge that you go across and when you get to the other side, where they have been dredging, this is a couple of years back, they just left it as a great heap of spoil which was immense. It has now all gone. When we went over there a week or so back we couldn’t believe it, it is almost as if it is has been landscaped. Some great thing has gulped all this stuff up and it has gone, absolutely gone. It is flat and easy to walk around. You get to the end of the bridge where there used to be a lock, there is not a lock there now but the brickwork is still there. You can now walk upstream, which we did. The footpath is not bad until you actually get to where the bypass is and you have got the bridge going across. It has changed a bit there but there are things being done to help. At the moment it is a mess and it will be a mess for quite a time. When you get over the other side of the road, past Arnolds going upstream now rather than downstream, up towards Sluice Weir, there’s a part of the path that wasn’t usable because it has been so wet and it’s flooded along there. The river has obviously been up and over the bank, but not seriously so. Int: This is across the road at Arnolds is it? MrM: Yes. Carrying on as though you are going up towards Pinkham, well you are going up towards Pinkham, you have got the industrial estate on your left and then the backway into Whitbread’s Hop Farm which is just past where the weir it. There’s parts of that which

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is really quite bad because of the weather. Because it has been so wet it is difficult to use it as it should be used. If you were saying I’m going to follow the towpath and think in terms of the old days when they used to pull barges along there and men and horses used to use the towpath, forget it you just can’t. But it has really made quite a difference. The thing that I hadn’t realised, I was describing to you a situation once before that when you get up beyond, actually flanking Whitbread’s land, there’s a wood that you used to be able to go around the edge of. I am not sure whether you still can, but it isn’t the most convenient way to do it. At one time you could actually walk through it, because the footpath took you through, you can’t now and I think it’s where they have been doing a bit of this off roadwork. I wasn’t sure whether it was because the powers that be have been laying pipes either for gas or water, gas I suspect, I don’t know, or for some other purpose, but it is impossible, you cannot walk through there, once upon a time you could. There is a sort of path along the edge of it which takes you close in places to actually plopping in the river because the path is not very wide and a lot of it has fallen down. You can go around the other side of that wood so you do a kind of a detour. You are heading up now towards Wagon Bridge where there’s a parting of the way so to speak, but it comes inland and goes around the Haymaker. I think it goes to Tuley, I don’t know. It is just before you get there and it is different from what it used to be. After we had all the rain, I was beginning to get very restless and I wanted to walk. We managed to do this before it got dark so we saw a good lot, so we have walked it all. Int: Do you recall the bit near Branbridges where they did the bank restoration works, and again the bit up just beyond Oak Weir where they did bank restoration work at the same time, do you know that bit? MrM: Oak Weir, what do you call Oak Weir? Int: Oak Weir is beyond Pinkhams. MrM: I don’t think I have been up that far. I might have been I don’t know. That must be up Hartlake area? Int: It’s before you get to Hartlake. There’s the Little Mill bit and you can see Oak Weir is beyond there. MrM: Oh I see. Int: It’s the next Weir along really. MrM: This is the bit I was talking about, where it’s not so good. We haven’t been up that far. I haven’t been up there so I don’t know. Int: At the same time as they did the work at Branbridges, they did work there at Oak Weir. MrM: Well we came to here. Int: You were up this end so you came right the way up to here. Well, perhaps I can ask you about the bank there. They did a 450 metre stretch of bank restoration work along there, just beyond the actual Weir at Oak Weir. Once you have gone through the Weir this

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is the left hand section with woods along either side. MrM: I haven’t walked along there so I don’t know. This is the other footpath I was telling you about. It goes beyond there it goes up, up and away. As I say we have done all of that within the last month or so. Int: How much do you use the river? MrM: As the mood moves us. It can vary really between once a month or so, but I would say we probably go along it about 4 or 5 times a year overall. We did this bit because we are over here. So we walk to the river down here, but of course you haven’t got the bypass on here. We picked it up from down there. We went down that way and when we came back we came along there. Int: A very long walk. MrM: I should say. Int: Can I ask you about the works they did at Branbridges in 1993/94? Do you recall those works? MrM: Yes they put all these bricks and whatnots in wire cages along there, to support the bank because a lot of the bank had gone, which made the path dangerous to use. That is what has happened further up. When you get up along here it is bad there because it has just got washed in. It’s still walkable but it is not nice to walk along. Of course the fishermen use it a lot. Int: I was mentioning the works at Branbridges, do you recall those? Did you see them going in when they were doing those works? MrM: No I just knew that something was happening there and we were going along there one day and lo and behold there it was. We have been back since and you can actually see it. It is quite an improvement compared with the way it used to be. Remember I said to you that one of the things that is quite nice to do is to make sure that the path is kept open. A bit further down I guess the path actually follows the river, but what people have done is to walk at the back of a little coppice into a field because it is easier than trying to walk around this path. The reason for that is that all the thorns and things have grown up over the path and it catches your face. There’s not too much of a problem with that along here, it’s narrow when you go through the gate to follow the path, where the pumping station used to be and the industrial estate and all that, then it kind of widens out. There are two levels of path and with all the flooding that has been going on, although you have the river there, you’ve got what could be river there as well, so you have got to be careful that you don’t slip otherwise you could be in it that way or that way. That way is a known quantity into the river, but that way is not a known quantity because you don’t know what there is down there. It is a bad time of the year because the ground gets waterlogged and you do get hollows where water collects. Just recently, as I say I have seen it like it before, well I have seen water there, but not like it was when we walked along there, it really was awful and very dangerous. You can’t legislate for that, this is what happens, it’s natural, there are hollows, water is going to go in there because it can’t go anywhere else because the ground is waterlogged so there it is and that’s where it stays until it can get away.

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Int: Thinking about the works they did at Branbridges, how successful do you think that was? MrM: Well it’s obviously good because it has preserved the path, otherwise what would have happened, I know a lot of the fencing has gone now, but it would have meant that people would have had to go into the farmers field because the river would have got wider. What happens usually is that it gets worn away in one path and gets deposited on the other path. It has sort of kept the track of the river much as it was and improved the pathworks there. It is not a bad walk along there, it is a bit wet underfoot but it’s not bad. Int: Any other ways you think the works were successful or of benefit? MrM: Well I said to you at the time when a lot of it was done, the underbrush and whatnot was cut away and the path was then clearly defined. If that isn’t kept cut back then as each year goes by all this stuff like briars and things grow, then it is going to make it difficult. Of course the passage of feet, there’s an awful lot of people do use the river. That can be confirmed by the pathworks. They do use it a lot to walk dogs and things like that along there so it tends to keep it open, but it’s the stuff that grows up high that you have got to be wary of because it can catch you, not only along here. There’s not too much of it along there leading up to the industrial estate and where the road is here, but you eventually do come to some along this side and it can be a problem. That’s all part of what was done there and that’s quite good. Int: Did you see the materials they used when doing those works? MrM: I don’t recall the work actually being done, so say that I went along there when they were actually doing it is not right. I just went along there when it had been done. Then you could see some of it because as I said you have got all these rocks which are kind of bound up in these wire cages, it’s like strong chicken wire which they have made a mesh out of to hold it all, that’s evident, you can see that. Int: Anything else that you saw there that they have done? MrM: Not that I recall really. Int: How do you think it looks now, the appearance of that section? MrM: Well the path was restored which has helped a lot, otherwise goodness knows what anybody would do, so it has improved it from that point of view. Well it had, it looks ghastly at the moment because of the ravages of the winter and all the water and so on that we have had has made it look awful. It doesn’t look pretty now. MrM: What worries me now is that the management of the river is going to be even more important because of this bypass we have got just down here. It is very high and they have built up these great banks and have put these cross tunnels through it and any water that occurs in a flash flood situation after prolonged rain is going to be hard pressed to get through there, particularly if what they have been doing up at the Lye Flood Barrier is brought into operation to try to hold back the river, that too will cause a problem. If you get spring tides when it gets down to Maidstone, it becomes tidal and you have a problem

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because it just backs all the way up. Yalding is always getting wet and if that gets wet you can pretty well reckon it won’t be long before we are. We are going to cop it first. Int: Yes you are quite in the flood plain here aren’t you? MrM: Well yes because the stuff coming down off Seven Mile Vale just over there you see has got to go somewhere and where is it going to go. You know that somewhere it will find it’s way to the river, well it will eventually but now that we have got this thumping great road there and this huge bank that we didn’t have, with very restricted access to the river through it, it’s going to be a problem I reckon. River management is going to be an important feature now so the Southern River Authority has got work to do and the Kent River Board as it used to be called, I don’t know what they call it now. MrM: (1968 flood) Oh yes they said that was once in 100 years, but two years later it did it again and they said that’s impossible. I said I’m very sorry to have to tell you but I’m actually standing up to my knees in water. Int: So it flooded in 1970 as well did it? MrM: Yes, and in 1971 I think. Int: Then they built MrM: Yes down there, it came up as far as the gate across the road. It came up the road and I watched it stop and thought do I tell anybody or just stand here and freeze, so I stood there and froze and it actually went back about a foot. I then thought it’s on it’s way down. I went back and had a look about 2 hours later and it had gone. Int: Was that in 1971? It just came up. Did it flood any houses then or did it not quite get to the houses? MrM: No. It did further up the road there. Int: In Old Road and places? MrM: Yes, well not so much flood the houses but it actually was in the road and up to the village but it didn’t come up here. Int: Thinking again about the works at Branbridges, what do you think were the main benefits for people in those works? MrM: Well as I said, people use the river for recreational purposes to walk along, it’s a good walk. A lot of kids like to cycle along it and so on, but we will ignore that part, but from the point of view of peripatetic recreation, people walking along footpaths and so on, it did quite a lot to make it easier to do. There are obviously things that have got to be done further up to make it even easier. Of course people fish. They get day tickets and they sit along there and fish. They have their own hollows that you can actually drop down into and sit and set yourself up for the day. It has made that possible, or the continuation of that activity. Otherwise at that particular point at this end it would become less easy and become more messy. You can’t actually go on the other side. Down here they have made a path on

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the other side, it’s further down and you can’t see that. That’s not part of your remit I know, but it used not to be there and now there is a path on the other side, that is actually going through private land and I don’t understand that, but still there it is. Along here it is a designated and recognised footpath and as such it is good that it has been kept open. It’s good that it is walked. Unfortunately because it is walked and because of the ravages of the weather, it’s in need of more restorative work. It’s not just that bit there, it’s all the way along here. It’s really sad, and in fact along here is awful at the moment. It has probably dried out a bit now, but when we went up there it was that bad it made it almost impossible to walk along there because it was so wet and very slippery and dangerous. Int: What part does the river play in the life the local community do you think? MrM: Well apart from what I said about it being a feature, it is used for recreation walking and fishing. That’s all really because it’s not used for the passage of goods any more, if people want to pursue some of the water type activities, like rowing or canoeing or whatever, then it has its uses from that point of view. In fact every year we have a raft race and that’s from Sluice Weir at Pinkham Lock down to the Anchor at Yalding. I think it has been done every year. I have participated in it once. You get wet and it was cold. There are people there that you never normally see. God knows where they come from but the riverbank along that footpath is lined with people and it is so packed with people that you think where have they all come from and what are they standing on. They are about 3 or 4 deep all the way along. You get entries from all over the place. The river is a feature, a water feature of the area, it is well used and it is well liked. It is an amenity. If it weren’t there I’m sure people wouldn’t do half the things they do there. They wouldn’t be able to walk or fish. That’s really what it is. It’s a grand exercise place. It is a nice place to be, when it is having a good old go, which it does sometimes, it tears through sometimes in a bit of a rush, and it can be quite entertaining to see it all swirling. You see all sorts of stuff being brought down with it. Nature lovers like it because in the season you get kingfishers around and dragonflies and things like that, so it can be quite nice to go along and find somewhere to prop yourself and just watch. If the water is very slack, fullish but very slack, it’s amazing to see the reflection of the trees from the bank actually in the water. You can look into it and it is just like looking at a photograph. The old railway bridge, which is down here, the old iron bridge, it is quite nice to see that. We have taken some pictures within the last couple of months of these reflections in the water of the bridge and the trees and things like that. It’s just the same there up at Branbridges where you have got the arched bridge. That is a pretty bridge to look at, particularly if you look at it from the riverside so to speak rather than from the footpath or roadside. When you go under it, it is even more splendid. You are talking about this bit here. When that bridge was repaired, it was chaos while they were doing it and it was very difficult to use the footpath underneath. But as a result of doing that, and of course the restoration work they have done to the bank there, it has improved it enormously. As I say for nature lovers, walkers, fishermen, sportsmen, boaters, even people with rowing boats and dinghies, occasionally the old waterboat comes up from Maidstone to go up to Tonbridge. It’s a bit of nuisance when they do because they want to try and tie up anywhere and there isn’t anywhere for them to tie up really. Int: What part does the river play in your life. What use do you make of it? MrM: Just recreational purposes that’s all. To walk and muse. After all it is only for recreational purposes as far as I can see. I don’t pursue any business interests, and that wouldn’t interest me anyway, but it is nice to walk along, very nice, a very pleasant walk.

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Not always but sometimes it is, if you get hoards of people along there it is a real pain, but when there are not too many people along there it is really quite nice. Int: Do you think people have a sense of attachment to the river or a feeling that it is their river? MrM: I don’t know really. I think it is one of those things that is there and traditionally people use it. So it is a part of the village and because we have become part of the village, not everybody is that lives here I hasten to say, but we are quite active in the village. It’s like any other amenity, because it is an amenity however you look at it. It is there naturally but it has been mucked about with by man to make it more pleasurable for people. I think that because it is there the villagers know that it is there and they use it as a recreational feature, which is really what it is. Whether they look at it there are people here that are birdwatchers and they like insects and all sorts of other bugs and water life and so on, and they go and forage for all these things and see if they come up with anything unusual. Natural pursuits are undertaken. The school uses it, because there is nothing quite like going to get a bit of river water and a bit of river mud and bringing it back and having a look at it under a magnifying glass or whatever and see whether there is teaming life in there and if there is what is it. All these little things wriggling around have they got water snails or tadpoles or what. So educationally it’s there. Int: I’m interested to hear that it is used for educational purposes. MrM: Ramblers use it, not only people from the village, they come from outside the village. In fact I was stopped. There had been an awful lot of water and there was a whole section up at Snoll Hatch and there were a couple of girls that were walking, I don’t know where from, but they were walking along and they wanted to know how to get to the river. I wondered if they would be able to because they were trying to follow the footpath. They got themselves to the point where they didn’t know where they were. They were using the map but they were disorientated. I told them to pick up the path of the river from Coldharbour. Whether they found it or not I don’t know, but we walked that section probably about a week later and by gum there was muck everywhere, it was unbelievable. So whether those girls had picked their way through all that lot I don’t know. They had decent looking socks and trousers and I would have thought that by the time they got down as far as Branbridges they would have been in muck up to their armpits. But as I say people do come from way out to use it. As I say it is an amenity and it’s there so we use it. Int: Right. Do you think the way local people use the river was taken into account when they did the works up at Branbridges? MrM: Oh yes they must have done otherwise there would have been a path to follow. It is a towpath, a footpath and towpath. I’m not sure quite what the charter is or how they view these things but I understand that the local authority, or the river authority or whatever it is, is responsible for maintaining the footpath along the river, and they have certainly done that there because it was getting very bad. Int: Do you recall when they did the work, was there any consultation of local people at all? MrM: I don’t know. We weren’t consulted. I think that is probably because we are not

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well we are closer than some, but as far as I know we weren’t consulted. That isn’t to say that the parish council wasn’t consulted. The local authority probably were but I am not associated with them, not at the moment anyway, so I didn’t here. I don’t remember whether in the Annual Parish Report anything was said. I don’t remember. Int: Do you think local people should be consulted in those circumstances, about works like that? MrM: Well I am not sure that it matters too much. As long as the path is kept open so that people can use it I wouldn’t have thought there would have been a quarrel. It is when footpaths are literally closed so that they cannot be used at all for whatever reason, then people do get a little bit uptight. So I would imagine that if that path, or any footpath along the river, was going to be closed because of maintenance work, then there would be a sign to say that was going to happen, like there is at the moment. I don’t recall at that time that there would have been, although I guess there must have been because they are doing it now. There is a sign that tells you work is being done and certain areas might not be accessible. Int: Like at Pinkham? MrM: Yes that’s right. But apart from that I have no idea. I do know that there are signs there now because of what’s being done at Pinkham. Int: Can I ask you a general question? What do you think of as a natural river, what is a natural river like in your view? MrM: It is a watercourse that finds itself to wherever it wants to go by its own means. So if water rises somewhere it makes it’s way towards where it can get away, out to sea or whatever, and it is how it does it and where it goes to do it. Sometime in the past it’s route might have been changed by man for convenience purposes, but in general a natural river is one where it has done that but no-one does anything about it on either side. It just does it and it gets there. Like many of the large rivers in America, like the Amazon and so on. It just finds its way to where it wants to go the best way it can. It is a massive river and it would be rather foolish of man to try to influence it too much, although I daresay that some has taken place in recent years, but certainly in the distant past no-one would ever have thought about trying to do anything about where it was going, and that’s about as natural as you can get. Int: Right. Do you think that we have natural rivers in Britain? MrM: Probably but I wouldn’t know. I mean some rivers you can actually walk along the banks of but there are some that you can’t, either because it is not permitted or because there is nothing underfoot to do it, it might be to difficult or too dangerous. If that were the case then that would be a natural phenomenon. Int: How about the Medway, how natural do you think the Medway is? MrM: I have no idea. It has been there a long time. It has been used for commerce for many, many years. Not so much now but in the past yes. I have no idea. I haven’t got a clue.

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Int: Well just thinking about it now, do you think of it as a natural river, or do you think of it as not natural? MrM: It is being influenced by man, and indeed the restorative work that has been done is an example of that because they are trying to maintain the course as it was rather than let it wear the land away, or the passage of feet. The effect of the river itself in times of flood is going to make it impossible for people to use footpaths etc. without trespassing. So I guess that since it is unnatural where there are paths along it. Obviously from the point of view of the fact that there was a towpath and that there are locks and so on, straight away that has made it unnatural because it isn’t man has done that. I suppose you can say that further up it is probably about as close to being natural as it can be. Int: Further up towards where? MrM: Going up towards Edenbridge. When you go through the playing field at Tonbridge and follow the river up to the woods there. It gets very overgrown and is very narrow. Of course it is fed from all sorts of little tiny streams and brooks and things. Sometime the Eden runs into it, that’s above Lye. It is surprising how it goes very narrow and you think no water is going to come through there, but it does. You get up a bit further and it goes wide again. Not overly wide until you get down towards Upnon and places like that and then it is quite bit where it spreads out into the Thames, it’s quite a size there. Int: How much of the river do you know? It sounds as though you know quite a lot of it really? MrM: I haven’t studied it, but inevitably when you go to Aylesford for example, or if you go to Maidstone, it is different now, it always floods in bits. There is quite a substantial towpath there, which is denied to a lot of people when you get a lot of rain. Subways have been put in for people to walk through but you can’t use them because there is floods of water. It is an unforgiving medium the river, if there is a lot of water about it can only take so much and the land has got to wait patiently while the water spreads and there is somewhere for it to go. When you get to Aylesford and there are weirs and locks there. That bit is tidal and when the tide is very low you think there is nothing, and there isn’t, it has just gone there is no water there at all. You can be there when the tide is up and it is a real boiling cauldron because you have got the river spilling into it, mixing with the stuff that is coming up so you have got quite a mix. It is fascinating to watch it. There is nothing quite like water. Int: How about down towards where it joins the Thames. Do you know that? MrM: I have been down there and had a look at it. We have been down to Chatham. When you go down over one of the motorway bridges in Rochester I think, when you look down, same as when you go over to Sheppey when you look down you have got the Medway and the Thames all together there. It is filthy. It is getting better mind but when they first did it there was this awful black ooze everywhere, and it smells too. A couple of years ago we went down to Sheppey, I had to go down there on business and it wasn’t a very pretty place to be. It is much better up here. Int: How about higher up towards Tonbridge, up towards its source. Do you know that at all?

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MrM: Not really. We have been up but it was years ago now. We have been up between Tonbridge and Leigh, sort of battled our way through. There was a section where there wasn’t a defined path and we managed to get through it, it was all overgrown and thorny. We got up a bit further and there was a path we could follow. It wasn’t as nice then as it is now down here, if you see what I mean. I am going back a few years though, so what it is like now that they have introduced the flood barrier. I did know a colleague of mine, he’s dead now, he used to walk that section regularly up through Powder Mills and so on and then pick it up further up. That is where he discovered where the old railway line was for the gunpowder workings, which is at Powder Mills between Hildenborough and Leigh. Int: You said that this section down here is nicer, in what way is it nicer? MrM: I suppose because if you walk it you can sometimes look towards the hills, at different times of the year, particularly at blossom time it is quite nice because you can walk through part of the farmland and so on and look across and see the blossom in the orchards. At hopping time you can see the hops, although that is getting less now. It is quite nice from that point of view. You can hear the birds around here and so on. Int: You have known the river for a long time, you have lived around here for a good many years and you have known the river for a good while. Do you think it has changed much in this area? MrM: I suppose it has. Change is gradual so you are not really aware of it and this is the sad part. My memory is not what it was. When we first came to the village there were lots of cottages in the village that are no longer there. The centre of the village has changed beyond recognition, which is a bit of a shame in a way, and I only wish that I had captured it on film. The same thing applies to the river. Because the road systems around have changed quite a bit as well, it would have been nice to have a record of that too. Silly because I am looking back now with hindsight. It was different in those days. I am not saying the paths were any different in the sense that they were or weren’t there. They were there and were there to be used, but fewer people used them than they do today. It was more as it was when people used to walk along there towing barges with big ropes over their shoulders, or used horses to do it. Int: It may be that the fact that more people use it and, therefore,it is more worn down that has changed or what do you think? MrM: I think probably over the past 30 or 40 years more maintenance has been required and has been done, because more and more people have used it. The village is quite bit now, there are about 4000 people living in the village. If you think of the people that are coming from the outside, the area grows from the point of population in the summer months when people want to use the paths along the waterways. When there’s a big jamboree sometimes at Beltring, you would be surprised at the number of people that come out that back gate and spill onto the river path and then decide which way they are going to go. You think where have all these people come from. They have found their way up from Pinkham Lane. What they are going to do when they get there I don’t know because there are a lot of cars parked along there which is awkward for the people that actually live along there, as well as down here, although not so much down here.

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Int: I would like to ask you about restoring rivers. Our study involves two other rivers which have had quite radical restoration works done on them, they are rivers that have been straightened and had concrete sides in parts, or one of them has, and they have now had the meanders put back in them. What do you think of that idea of restoring a river to a more natural condition? MrM: I suppose you can argue that a river, if left to its own devices, will do what it wants to do. In the words of Blaster Bates it may not be a good idea to have it wearing away your farm. If you have got properties that flank a river and so on, that’s to say buildings etc., it could well endanger them. So from the point of view of preservation of land for landowners and so on, I suppose that there must be some influence to prevent the river from having its head too much so to speak. Int: These schemes where the meanders were re-introduced, were done so that, although there would be some increased flooding of land, there would certainly be no extra flooding of properties. The flood protection level was kept the same in terms of property there was just a little bit more of spreading out on the land. How does the idea of doing something like that feel to you? MrM: If you think about it there are very few straight rivers anywhere and I suppose the reason for that is because the density of the land through which it goes changes and it will just take the easiest route that it can. If you see something that is as straight as a gun barrel and the water rises there, but 200 miles further along it falls into this area there, nature is not like that. It is going to do what it wants to do and go where it wants to go, so as long as, I suppose you could say, the natural beauty, whatever you might mean by beauty, isn’t destroyed, then anything that you can do to preserve a water course is a good thing. But if you do it at the expense of any features that it may have, if it is meandering, then it is a nothing. People, wherever you are, particularly in this country, I don’t know about abroad, seem to want to go towards water always. You will always find that if they can they will walk a riverbank, they will follow it along, because it is a nice and natural thing to do. You can find something that is quiet and peaceful and listen to the sound of the water. If you can do that when it is gadding about like it does, well the Medway does, then why not, it adds to the natural charm. It may not be natural but it can be made to look natural. I think that is probably a good feature rather than concrete, like you have with locks and so on, they are not the prettiest of features. Then of course you have got the natural beauty, it is a bit bland of a word, but nature has exerted itself, and I think that is quite nice to see. I know that some of the rivers, I don’t know about the Medway, but some of the rivers have actually put pile in to hold the banks back and they have done this with some of the canals. They have actually made quite a feature of it the way it has been done. I suppose you can say that the passage of time and the weather and whatnot has made it look quite tasteful, like some of the old railway lines and embankments. When they were originally built people must have thought look at that awful mess that somebody has done in the interests of this, but then you get used to it. Mother natures gets going so all the mosses and bracken, ferns and young trees all appear so it becomes a natural feature, even though it isn’t. I think that is probably one of the nice things that nowadays we know how to handle that. We can do the things that you said, which is widen or deepen or change the course of the river, and use concrete to hold it, and allow nature to create a natural environment around it. That is a good thing to do. But to go back to what you were saying earlier, if you allow a water course to behave as it would normally, it could do more damage than good, so management comes into it. That is to say from the point of view of what we already know. If there wasn’t anything around and

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people didn’t care because they weren’t living anywhere near, it wouldn’t matter it could just get on with it and do what it does. Nature has got a way of sorting itself out. We are somewhat puny animals when it comes to what nature wants to do. You can’t do a Canute. Stand at the sea and say get back, it wouldn’t take any notice of you. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. We control them. What do you think about that idea? MrM: Up to a point it is true. I think probably if you hadn’t, or because of all the building that has gone on over the years, it has become more and more necessary to do it. As in 1968, there was such a lot of water about and there wasn’t anywhere for it to go so it flooded. People’s property got damaged and so on. There is more of that happening now and that is because I think that we are being somewhat foolish with the management of our own environment. Too much concrete. As soon as you start cutting the trees and hedges down and introducing loads of concrete, building houses and so on, you are stopping the natural drainage phenomenon. So it becomes much more necessary to control what the river is doing now because if you let them do what they would normally do, absorbing as much water as they can, then chucking it out to the sea, and if it can’t it just goes over the land. It is doing that more and more. If you can control it and re-direct the water, then you can stop a lot of heartache and unnecessary damage. Int: Right. Do you think that controlling a river makes it less natural? MrM: These are strange questions aren’t they? No because it is only for the environmental amenity that you control it, it is not natural to do it, and it can produce unnaturally ugly structures and things. We really ought to be able to do without them but you can’t because people’s lives may be at stake and probably their livelihood. One would argue that should take precedence, but it is only because of our own stupidity that it has. People want to build near where they can move stuff, right down through the ages it has always been like that, so you find that people will build where there are rivers and where the sea is. They then say afterwards oh there’s 200 foot of cliff gone and my house has gone with it. There’s a surprise. Int: Likewise they build quite near rivers as well. Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges, do you think that the work that was done there had a scientific basis, that there was a body of scientific and technical knowledge, with which those works were done? MrM: I have no idea. I would have thought that engineers would have been what they are supposed to be, which is engineers, and to have looked at the problem that they had and choose a method of restoration which is going to interfere with nature less than perhaps it might, and do the job. You obviously don’t want to spend a lot of money doing that kind of work to find that the next time you get a flood it’s all gone. So they are going to have studied what the ground is like and what the riverbeds and bank are like, by looking at core samples and so on, and observing the behaviour, which is an engineering problem as well as a scientific problem. You have got the two features there, science and engineering so it must always come into it. It is not done by taking pot luck or anything that is haphazard I wouldn’t think. Nobody with a crock of gold is going to say go over and bung up that, without whoever is going to do it not knowing what it is he is doing, and without studying the problem before he actually took action. That’s my view, it might be wrong I don’t

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know. Int: Do you have confidence that the people that did those works and who managed the river generally, know what they are doing? MrM: We had very few disasters either from people walking the towpaths or people using the rivers as a whole. We do have disasters but very few, and I suspect that those who are involved with the Kent River Authority, what do they call themselves now? Int: Well it has been the National Rivers Authority, Southern Region, and now it is the Environment Agency, Southern Region. MrM: Well I guess they must know what they are doing, because there are very few serious accidents and very few fatalities. There have been a few, people are daft, particularly when it is hot and do silly things, but you can’t legislate for people. All you can do is to try to make it, how shall I say, less easy is not the word, but in view of health and safety and that sort of thing, where there is a path try to maintain that path, and that is what they have done, so they are doing what they should do. Occasionally they come along with some great machine and they actually dredge it, because stuff gets washed down as you can imagine, because it is navigable they make sure that it remains so. I think that’s good. Int: Right. Thinking about the Medway, do you think of the Medway as a typical river or is it a special river for you? Is it a typical lowland river or how do you think of it? MrM: If I were living along the Dee in Wales I would think probably I would view it in much the same way as I do the Medway. Wherever there is a river which is a country river, rather than something like the Thames, although the Thames has got its magic, don’t misunderstand me, but the Thames, along the bits which most people know, which is right the way through the centre of London, is a lifeline, it’s like a thumping great artery or a big snake, but it has got no magic for me. When you have got rivers which are going through fields, woods, valleys, gorges, then that is sort of special from that point of view. To me they are unusual because it is not something you see all the time. The Medway has got its charm but wherever I was if there was a river such as those then they would be a feature of the area and I would enjoy them, as I do the Medway. Here it is as flat as a billiard table, the only way out of this area is up really. It’s absolutely wonderful to be on top of that hill over there and to look down into this area. Equally it is nice to be down here and look up at that hill, because when the sun shines on it, or at twilight or when the sun is setting or something like that, you get strange sort of shadows and different lights and it is absolutely fascinating. This is a nice place to be. You can’t just go and walk across it all because if you do you will be up to your ears in water because you have got the river in the way, which makes for interest. How does that answer your question. Int: Yes it does. Thank you very much. Is there anything else you would like to add about the river which we haven’t touched upon, but you would like to talk about or tell me about? MrM: Not really, I just think that the powers that be have got to keep a watch on it, not so much the water itself, but on the bankside, because we have had an awful lot of wet and the effect of the river rising and giving out a good swoosh, like it has been doing recently, because it has been so dry for so long it is not doing it any good. I mean this is something

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that has obviously happened over many years, long since before I came to live in the area, but I am not a user in the sense of I walk the river every day, but being an occasional user you can see where there are areas that do need attention, because the paths are getting so narrow, which means that you are sloping towards the river, and if the use is going to continue as it is then someone is going to get wet and upset. Int: So there’s a maintenance and safety issue here? MrM: Yes and I think this is always going to be the case, particularly now that people are coming out. People don’t do very much in the way of exercise. If they can’t actually get somewhere by car then they just don’t go there. Maybe we are different and the people that do the kind of walking that we do perhaps are not necessarily in the minority so they come where they can walk and observe nature and this seems to be on the increase. There are many, many more people now using the footpaths than ever there were before. Not only the natural footpaths around the village, but equally from the point of view of walking the towpath. If the towpath isn’t maintained then it is going to get destroyed. The same with mountains in Wales, they walk around the Brecon Beacons and there’s not a lot you can do about that, but with the river you can, which comes back to what you were saying before. It is trying to restore what ought to be natural but it is very difficult to do. Of course you have got the influence of man there all the time but it is something that needs to be done, on a fairly continuous basis. Lord knows where the money comes from, me as a ratepayer I guess. Int: Right. Any other points you would like to make? MrM: No I think that will probably do. Int: OK. Thank you very much.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 3 Int: You were saying that you don’t go down much this time of year. MrQ No I don’t get time, by the time I get home from work it’s dark and at the weekend I have too much to do. It is sort of a midweek thing in the summer walking the dog up there. Int: I would like to ask you about the works they did. How long have you lived in the village? MrQ 50 years. Int: Oh well that must have been most of your life then. MrQ I was 4, just at the end of the war in 1945. Int: Does that make you a villager? MrQ I suppose it ought to really, long service. I wasn’t born here but long service. Int: So you were here when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir. MrQ Oh which work are you talking about. They rebuilt the bridge a few years ago when it collapsed or partially collapsed. Int: No it was after that, it was 93/94, they did some bank restoration work. MrQ I never actually walked along but you can see it from the road. I have never actually been there. Usually when I go up there I walk around that way and it brings me right round in a circle back here because I don’t go out into the main road with the dog. Where they did the work is just down near the old gas works. Int: How about the other part they did some bank restoration near Oak Weir, do you know that bit? MrQ Oak Weir which one’s that? Int: It’s not the sluice just beyond the village it’s the next major weir, beyond Bullen Island, I can show you on the map. MrQ There’s another weir down where the old mill used to be. Int: It’s quite near where the mill where are we, Oak Weir it’s there. That’s where Oak Weir is and there we are, here we are in the village.

MrQ Where’s the locks? Int: There’s one lock there . Here’s the mill. MrQ That must be on the way down to Yalding then. That’s on the way down to Yalding. I haven’t been down to that one since I was a kid. Am I looking at this right. Ah yes you’re getting mixed up with the little mill, don’t be confused with the mill by the river. The little mill is the place up near the village. Let me try to get my bearings here. Looking at the map and lots of confusing talk about directions and landmarks. MrQ There’s an unused lock down there towards Yalding then. As a kid we used to go down there, the concrete walls are there plus the recesses where the lock gates actually went in. The water is the same level right through there. I don’t know what that did years ago, obviously it was a lock. Have you ever been down there? Int: Not that way no. MrQ There is actually a complete set of locks there with the gates missing and the water is the same level both sides. Int: I wonder what they did I will have to check up on that. Well I was going to ask you about the works at Branbridges. MrQ Like I say, I only saw them from the road I never actually walked up there when they were doing it. I suppose they were trying to stabilise the banks were they? Int: Yes, how successful do you think they were in doing that? MrQ I don’t really know, as I say I haven’t actually walked it, but I should imagine that was a long slow expensive pain staking way of doing it I would have thought. Int: What the work, they way they did it? MrQ Rather laborious I would have thought and rather expensive wouldn’t it be, but then again what else can you do. You can’t concrete the sides in because that would spoil the river altogether. Int: So you felt it was quite a sort of. MrQ It is obviously a good thing we do need to preserve the banks. I never walked up there for donkeys years from when I was a kid once I started work and I was amazed at how much of the old tow path that I used to know as a kid had disappeared and it had been moved back as the banks were expanding, so obviously something needed to be done. Int: But you felt that the methods were laborious?

MrQ Well it seems laborious to me. I drive that road fairly regularly and they seemed to be quite some time doing a small stretch, I didn’t actually count how many people were working, how many people were actually employed, but it obviously must be a pain staking job. Int: And you felt it must be expensive? MrQ I would have thought so, unless it was done by volunteer groups, which do it for virtually nothing. I have no idea what it would cost. Int: Any other views on those works? MrQ Not really, but what else can you say about it? Int: How did you think it looked when it was finished? MrQ Again only from the road it was a job to tell, but I should imagine that it would look more unobtrusive than it used to when the natural vegetation would have concealed it a bit more, but obviously it looked artificial and man made as opposed to being the natural state of things, but then that’s to be expected. Unlike concrete whatever they used was only chestnut spirals and things wasn’t it and obviously the vegetation will grow over that again and hide it up so it wasn’t an eyesore, so I don’t think you could improve upon what they were doing. There couldn’t be any better way of doing it I wouldn’t have thought. I suppose planting trees stabilises the ground a bit but not a lot. Int: Who do you think benefited from the scheme? MrQ Well definitely anybody out walking their dog, and fisherman or anglers. It is very popular this stretch for angling, but obviously wildlife. To some species the wider the expanse of the river the better but to others probably it has encroached upon their habitat. It’s six of one half a dozen of the other. I can’t see how anybody benefits greatly from it, all it is really is keeping things as they were, or stopping things deteriorating. Int: Yes that’s a good point. What do you think is the most important benefit? Has there been any benefit to you or any other people? MrQ I wouldn’t say any benefit to me, because if a bit of towpath is missing I am still young enough and agile enough to go off the beaten track and trail through the woods and cut out back further on so there’s no problem. But I would say as long as the towpath can be kept stable it is much better for young mothers with pushchairs who I know like to walk down there. My mother used to years ago but she had to give it up because the towpath started to go missing. Int: Before the project was carried out, did you have any expectations as to what it might be like? Did you hear anything about what they were going to do? MrQ I never heard or read that anything was going to be done. I just drove past it one day and I saw something happening and guessed what it was. Of course in general conversation it was

confirmed that was what they were doing, I suspected they were re-establishing the bankside really. Int: So you didn’t have any particular expectations? MrQ No not really because I don’t really walk that way at all. I go that way and turn right, I can’t remember the last time I actually walked down past the bit that you are talking about. Many, many years ago I would have thought. It is a more interesting walk that way. You go up there and turn right up to Stelstead. You haven’t got to take the dog onto the main road. There is nothing worse than walking so far and then walking back over the same terrain, this way you walk in a loop and it’s much more interesting and when you come out onto the road it is not a major main road. So I very rarely go that way. Int: Right. What part do you think the river plays in your life? MrQ For me it plays a big part in as much as where I am situated in this house here I do see a lot of the wildlife, even though it is only at a distance I can see skanes of geese and swans who come down. You can see where they are going to land and you know where the river is. That line of trees is the embankment you see. When that field floods, which it frequently does, it is quite a flood plane there, you can see the swans out on that field actually. It is very good for observing wildlife from here. I can hear the geese going over at night. It’s pitch black and you can hear them honking away and you know they are heading towards the water. It’s good in that respect. You can see the swans flying right the way along the riverbank from here. It’s a wonderful sight. Int: So you don’t really need to visit in a sense. MrQ Not really I have a pretty good pair of binoculars. This is excellent for wildlife. I had a sparrow hawk kill a starling on my lawn right here in front of me about 3 weeks ago. I was standing at the door there and I threw down some bread and the lawn was black with starlings. All of a sudden there was a whoosh and the hawk killed a starling and stood there crunched over its prey looking up at me from 20 feet away. When I stepped towards it, it picked the starling up which was screaming in pain and flew off towards the river from here clutching the starling in its talons. It is a proper little nature reserve out there. I have had a kingfisher on my pond. I often get the herons from the river on my goldfish pond. I have hid behind the curtain and watched the heron stalking around the edge of my pond trying to get the goldfish. Int: Seeing what it could find yes? MrQ Two weeks ago I came home and went to lock my front door and looked down at my foot and there was an adder 4 inches away from the toe of my shoe wriggling across my door step. Last week I got up first thing in the morning, I was a bit blurry eyed and it was a bit gloomy and I thought there was a spider down the toilet, I put the light on and found that it was a baby frog. It had obviously gone down the drain outside and came up in my toilet. It obviously couldn’t get over the lid to get out. That was three encounters with Mother Nature in 3 weeks.

Int: Right well you are very near the river. MrQ You can see the boats go by in the summer. From the level of that field there the river is only about that far down from the level of the field. That crane is on a boat where they are altering the weirs there, somebody told me they are making a slip canal for the canoes or something. I don’t know how true that it. That there,I don’t know if you can see without my binoculars, but that there is the concrete blocks on the sluices there. I’ll get my binoculars. You can’t see with the naked eye. If you look to the left of the crane you will see a concrete block up in the air which is the weight of the arm of the automatic sluices. Int: Oh right, yes. MrQ If you look straight up there, that is what we used to call the old wagon bridges, it has been rebuilt because a flood 20 years ago swept it away and it is now in iron, but just past my fir trees there you will see the bridge round to your right. Int: Ah yes there it is. I have walked all that, I haven’t walked your circular walk I will have to try that MrQ Once you cross over that wagon bridge there the track just brings you out to the road. When you go over that there is another backwater that goes around in a loop around there. That’s the last place I saw a kingfisher actually. Int: On that little backwater? Do you get otters here at all? MrQ I have never heard of anyone seeing an otter here. I have had a fox in the back garden. Look at my silly old dog out there. Int: It’s a very handsome dog. MrQ He’s a lovely fellow. MrQ Yes, he’s full of energy all day long. Int: Is that your land extending out? MrQ Yes to that fence there. Int: He has got plenty of space there. MrQ When our last dog died I said I would never have another dog unless I had some room for him to run in, and when I managed to buy that piece of land that’s when I got him so he has got that all day he can run in that. It’s 100 times more than some people’s dog. Keeps him off my lawn from chewing it up in the winter as well.

Int: So you have a different experience of the river here. It’s not quite at the bottom of the garden but. MrQ You can see the lanterns in the all night fishing season, it’s just a row of lanterns along there. Int: How important do you think the river is to the local people and to the local community? MrQ I don’t think it is as important now as it was when I was a kid. When I was a kid we used to spend all of our time up there literally, running in the woods, fishing, swimming, but the kids today just want to sit in front on a computer game and the telly. I don’t think they make use of the natural facilities around here as we used to. Just after the war this was a wonderful village for kids to grow up in. I came here when I was 4, nearly 5,and right up until I left school at 15 that was a wonderful place to go for your own entertainment. You walk up there today and you don’t see half as many kids as you used in my day, even though the population in the village is tenfold. But then of course I think the river became more polluted. We used to swim all the time but then there was this polio scare several years ago, and I remember over in Yalding there was a sign, which is probably still there now, saying don’t go bathing because of polio and I think it got more polluted and the last time I went swimming was at Yalding in the river and that was 30 years ago, and I just stank when I came out, I couldn’t wait to wash the smell off. Back when I was a kid you never got that. Int: You all went swimming. MrQ Yes we used to live up there. In the summer holidays my mother used to wonder when we were coming home, we used to go up in the morning and come home when we were hungry. That was a long time ago. Int: Do you think they took the way that people use the river into account when they did the restoration works at Branbridges? MrQ That I wouldn’t know. I would say probably not because I never got any information or circulars or questionnaires asking me what I think ought to be done or anything like that, it all seemed to be somebody somewhere just decided and went and did it. As far as I know there wasn’t a survey on public opinion. Int: Do you think something ought to have been done to consult local people? Do you think local people should be consulted about works of that kind? MrQ I would say yes. I would have thought that the response would have been apathetic. I don’t think there is enough people interested really to bother to give their time. It used to be more of a thing in the village, but now it’s all computers and God knows what, and I think there is a lack of interest quite frankly in nature compared to what it used to be when we were kids. Int: That’s interesting. MrQ I bumped into a chap about 6 months ago, he used to be a lad around the village with myself

and I haven’t seen him for years. He said that every now and again he has to come back here and walk up that river out of nostalgia. I said this was a wonderful place for kids to grow up in just after the war and he turned around and said it was definitely. Times have changed. Int: I am just trying to think if there are any other things related to that I should ask you about. Thinking about the rivers in general, what do you think of as a natural river? MrQ What do I think is a natural river? Int: Yes, what’s your idea of a natural river? MrQ One that’s not man made. Well how can you answer that question? Exactly what it is, a natural river, a natural water source. One that has not been tinkered with too much by man, I know they have had to around here because of the flood difficulties years ago. When they did that massive development in Tonbridge 30 years ago, maybe more, but since they have done that we have not flooded here not like we did in 1970ish when we had the great flood around here. I mean the floods were going past my window literally. Int: Right. Was that the last time there has been flood water in the town? MrQ That I think was the last one of any major consequence. It would regularly flood every year, but since they have done the works in Tonbridge it has not done so, so I suppose that if you do tinker with the natural river you can make improvements in that sense, whether it improves it in the sense of the natural habitat and the wildlife I wouldn’t like to cast an opinion. Int: Thinking about the Medway, how natural do you think it is? MrQ Well what little I know of it is pretty good. I last walked the Medway when I played truant from school when I was about 13 and I walked from Tonbridge to East Peckham along the river totally and it was lovely. Whether it is any different or not know I don’t know, because I haven’t walked it since I was 13 and now I shouldn’t imagine it has changed a lot but when you go over the bridge at Art Lake you can see quite a way in each direction and it all looks pretty much of a muchness, it’s all fields and not built up. I don’t think it is likely to be either. I don’t think they will ever build on this field here. Three of us clubbed together and bought this plot of land when the farmer sold out just so that we couldn’t get anybody building close to us and de-valuing our houses, but at the same time I don’t think they will ever build there anyway because that field is still a flood plane. There was a pond out there with swans on it about a week ago. There is a dip in the middle of that field and this is a seam of ballast from here right through to Tonbridge. You have only got to dig down a metre and you are into the water table even in the summer you hit gravel,there are gravel pits right the way from here to Tonbridge. Obviously water travels through gravel pretty easily. Int: Thinking of the works they did at Branbridges, how natural do you think the river was there before they did those works, and how natural was it after they did the works. MrQ Well obviously before they did anything it was natural, couldn’t be anything else but. I

haven’t given it a lot of attention recently, as I said you go by these things you don’t take any notice. How long ago did they do that? Int: It was 93/94. MrQ Well next time I go that way I will make a point of looking to see whether the natural vegetation has started growing up over what they have done, because after a while obviously it should go back to being pretty natural I would have thought. Nothing they used was synthetic as far as I know, what they used was chestnut palings and that sort of thing woven together, so I should think that was all right. Int: Perhaps I could ask you a bit more about natural rivers. Do you think we have tamed our rivers? MrQ Well that’s a good question. I’m not an authority on it but I remember one of the first streams they tinkered with just after the war, that’s a little stream that feeds into the Medway at Yalding, they made a sort of little concrete sluice there. I don’t know why they did it at the time, I still don’t but it must be something to do with the flows and the flooding in this area I suppose. We tamed them to the extent that they need to tame them, they put that damn across the River Thames, you can’t get a much bigger project than that, they have done something there to suit mankind haven’t they, until a ship last week damaged it. I don’t here very often these days of rivers breaking their banks. I mean was it Lynmouth years ago they had a disaster and people died didn’t they. I haven’t heard of that sort of thing lately so I suppose we must have controlled them. I don’t think you will ever tame them completely, but I would say that we are controlling them very much better than we used to pre-war perhaps. Int: Have people drowned in the Medway in your knowledge? MrQ Oh yes, a chap I know deliberately drowned himself in Tonbridge. He tied some rocks around his legs and jumped off the bridge and he drowned all right. Int: Accidentally? MrQ No I think he had woman trouble and got on the wrong side of the law and I suppose he got fed up with it. But when I was a kid some of the older lads found a body floating in the river up here. One of the kids thought it was a boot and when he pulled it there was a leg on the end of it and a body. I can remember it lying in the back of an old lorry out here back in 1950 I suppose. Yes there have definitely been one or two drownings. Another man who lived here was a bit of a tramp and he drowned in the Medway at Tonbridge 20 years ago I would have thought, but I don’t recall anybody in the last couple of decades. Int: Do you think controlling rivers makes them less natural? MrQ Well obviously they have to be less natural. Anything that is controlled by man becomes less natural. Sometimes when they damn it they do create a better environment, because usually it swells out wider behind it which gives a bigger area for water fowl and increases the length of

embankment for the bankside inhabitants. But of course they are all falling by the wayside now the bankside inhabitants. We used to call them water rats, but water voles is the correct term for them. It used to be alive with them when I was a kid but you never really see one now. When I walk up there I don’t see one very often. So I suppose things are changing all the time and if they are it’s obviously to do with man tinkering with the river or man polluting the river. Probably most of it is down to pollution I would have thought. When we used to go swimming regularly there was no problem, but then we used to catch impetigo and we were told that comes from the water in the river being dirty. So that’s when I stopped swimming in the river really I suppose. Int: Thinking again of the work that was done at Branbridges, how scientific do you think that process was? MrQ Well that’s a difficult question, I don’t think I am not really able to answer that successfully, I have never thought about it scientifically really. I suppose it was scientific in as much as it was done as naturally as possible,avoiding concrete banks. That’s all I can say really to that question. Int: Did you feel that the people doing the work had the knowledge to do it. Did you trust them? MrQ Well they must have done. When I saw them doing it I thought they have obviously done that before, so it wasn’t somebody experimenting I wouldn’t have though, it was obviously something that has been tried and tested elsewhere. Int: So you had confidence in the work they did? MrQ I was just pleased to see something being done quite frankly. If you lose the towpath and the river gets too wide, the wider it gets the more it gets onto private property and then you would have no towpath at all. Once it gets to somebody’s border if the bank collapsed the river authority only own so much each side don’t they, and so you would be without a towpath and you wouldn’t be able to get on any further, you would have to back track and find another way around. You have got to keep the towpath that’s for sure. Int: So on the whole how did you feel about the works when they were completed? MrQ As I say it was obviously a good thing and needed to be done. Probably a lot more needs to be done. I haven’t been up there for some time, but I should imagine there are vast areas of towpath that if I walk from here to Yalding now, which I haven’t done since I was a kid, I’ll bet I would notice the changes there, and that would be mostly disintegration of towpath, unless somebody has done similar to what has been done up here. Int: Thinking about the river use, do you think there is a problem with conflicting used, the river is quite heavily used for different things, walking, boating, fishing. MrQ Well no I don’t think there is any conflict. Fishermen probably mutter if a launch goes by disturbing their floats and their bait, but that’s tough isn’t it, it’s there for all, not just for fishermen, it’s for people to go boating on or swimming in or whatever. I don’t think there is a problem with conflict of interests I wouldn’t have thought.

Int: Right. Any other things you would like to say about the river? MrQ No, not really. I just hope that they keep increasing the laws to prevent contamination that’s all. That small stretch of canal at Yalding is as you probably know is next to ICI and years ago you could see the pipes sticking out the bank with all the muck and stuff coming out which was horrible. As you know that has gradually been stamped on and wiped out and not before time, otherwise you would have rivers with no fish in. Int: Right, you are not a fisherman? MrQ No not since I was a kid, a stick and a bent tin. I think to an extent it is cruel. I used to go live baiting for pike. You get one hook and you stick it in the mouth and the other hook sticks in its back and you throw it out with its own weight hanging on these hooks, I thought that was terribly cruel and I would never do it now. I think any form of catching animals with hooks and barbs has got to be cruel and you can’t tell me they can’t feel it. Who knows, unless a fish could talk. Int: Anything else you would like to add about the river? MrQ I would like to have a very tight eye kept on it all the time to make sure that people are not abusing it. Int: Do you think there is abuse of it going on in this area? MrQ Well litter. When people walk down they chuck out their litter. I have nothing against anybody taking their dog, their dog has got to do its job, I don’t call that pollution when it’s out in the wild, that disintegrates and what have you so I don’t think that’s pollution, but people who go up there and take cans of drink and just throw them down or in the river, I think there should be penalties for that sort of thing. There probably is but there isn’t enough people to enforce it. You have got to look after the natural things that are left in this world. The river is only one of them. The forest as well have got to be looked after as well, otherwise we will all be in a concrete jungle. I wouldn’t live in town. If somebody were to double my wages I wouldn’t go and live in town. I was born on a farm at Yalding, country born and bred, what people see in town with the neon lights I do not know. They can stick it. Int: Right. Well it’s very nice to talk to you because you have a very particular view on the river and . MrQ I think the view that I have got here makes this house worth £5,000 more than it would be if it were somewhere else to be honest. There are unrestricted views here. I can see the traffic going up to Tonbridge Wells, you can see exactly where the road it. Whitbread’s hop farm is just across the other side of the river, and opposite as many as 20 balloons go up all at once in the ballooning season. You get all the wildlife coming over, skanes of geese and swans and mallards, it’s a lovely place really. The whole village is changing gradually for the worse really, but my little bit won’t. Int: Where’s that?

MrQ Well the houses they have built and the population and it is getting to be a concrete jungle. I don’t want to see any more building around here. The population must be tenfold to what it was just after the war and I don’t want to see any more, let’s keep it natural if we can. Int: Thank you very much.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 4 Int: Do you go down to the river at all? MrR: Yes I do go down there I am a great bird watcher so I do go down there quite a lot. I have been up there a couple of times in the last few weeks. I have been up there quite a lot really. I have a mate who goes up there as well quite a bit, he walks his dog up there. He lives in Addingford and he walks all along from up that way. I go more in the winter than I do in the summer because of the insects and that in the summer. Int: Oh you’re different from other people, they don’t go in the winter. MrR: I was up there on Tuesday for about 3 or 4 hours walking about. I do get lost in time walking about up there. I walk up around the back of the lock I don’t know whether you know East Peckham at all, there is a little stream at the back of the playing fields running around the back. There is a footpath going all the way round and I just do that if I don’t want to walk too far. Int: So you like walking generally? MrR: Oh yes, I haven’t got a car. My girlfriend has a car but I am not really bothered about having a car for the things I need. Int: You like bird watching. At the moment you go down there for that. MrR: Obviously I just enjoy walking but if you get somewhere that there are no people and it’s nice and quiet. It’s pretty good up there really. It has got a lot better over the last few years. They have let a lot of bits of land just go basically, it has done it a lot of good really. Int: In what way has it done it good? MrR: More birds really. Certain ones there are less of, but yellow hammers there are lot of them. There have been things in certain bird magazines that in certain areas they are sort of slacking off but we get quite a lot of yellow hammers around this area. I wouldn’t say it was a specialist area but that is why I quite like it in winter because of the woods, you can’t really see anything in summer because the trees are covered in leaves. In the winter you can see a lot really you can stay in one space and stay around watching the wildlife all the time. It is pretty good. Int: Do you recall the works that were done at Branbridges to the river in 1993/94 they did the works? MrR: Was that not the bridge or when they went along the banks and built it all up?

Int: That’s right. MrR: I do remember it. Somebody came before asking me about it. They have done quite a lot to the footpaths along there by the weir as well. Int: Do you know Oak Weir? Do you walk along that bit there? MrR: I haven’t for a long time but I have done before. There are woods around there but it is usually from the mill stream the wagon bridge all the way along to Pinkham all that area there and out of the back of the woods at Whitbread. Obviously the main bit of the river path you can’t walk down at the moment because they have shut it off because they are doing some work on the weir or something. Int: Yes they are. MrR: So you can’t walk all the way through, you have to walk through the woods and come out at the back of Whitbread. I went down there the other day and you can’t walk across the weir at all. It is a bit of a state at the moment because of the work and they have fences and buildings and all sorts of things up there. Do you know actually what they are doing? Int: I know they are doing some works on the weir but I am not exactly sure what. MrR: Someone said they are making a fish run for the fish to go up. Int: That’s right, somebody else mentioned that. MrR: That and they are improving the weir as well. They seem to have been banging a lot the last few nights, but I have been keeping an eye out to see what they are doing up there. It doesn’t really seem to have affected anything. I met my mate up there the other day and we were wandering around in the woods and there were still as many things, there are a lot of woodpeckers at them moment. Unless you spend a lot of time and know where to do you don’t really see them, but we have had days when we have seen 3 or 4 just walking across one part, whereas years ago there weren’t any, you just didn’t see them about. Now there are a lot of them, so all these bits that they have just let go have done it a lot of good really. There are a lot more places for the birds to hide and there just seem to be a lot more birds in general. Int: Thinking of the work they did in 1993/94 at Branbridges and Oak Weir, I don’t know whether you saw it at the time or MrR: Whether they were actually doing it. I remember when they did it because they used a wire mesh with rocks inside it which builds the bank up. I do remember them doing it. Int: How successful do you think that bank restoration has been? MrR: I haven’t noticed it. There are still other areas that could do with a bit of work, but I

would say the bits they have done I haven’t noticed that they have fallen down at all so they must be OK. Int: So in what ways are they OK. MrR: Well they could have put railings along but it wouldn’t have looked right. Basically what they have done is taken the footpath and just strengthened it up without actually making it look any different, it has ended up looking the same as it always did but they have managed to hide it quite well. As I say in a lot of areas like that they actually put a footpath made of gravel and all that but it doesn’t really need it up there, it has just encouraged more people to walk along there, which is good in some ways but not so good in others because eventually it just wears it all away. I think there are two things they should do up there, they should either open it up and have proper pathways and have it like a nature walkway, which would be quite a good idea because it means that it wouldn’t get touched as far as being built on or anything like, or they should ignore it completely and let it go, both ways the animals get looked after really. As I say it would be quite a good idea because you have got all the woods at the back of Whitbread’s which I think they own, but obviously the river is owned by the Council, by the different County Councils as you go along. I bought the Medway Valley Waters book and that was quite interesting as well. I have lived here all my life 24 years and most of the time in this house and I have seen it from the age of 3 or 4 when I used to walk up there with my Nan to now when I go up there on my own. My mate and I lived up there for a while. We bought a little tent and build a little camp in the woods and lived up there for about 6 months. So it is a nice area really. There a lot of people I know that like it, obviously there are the ones that like to go up there in the summer swimming and make a lot of noise and stuff whereas that is not my attraction. I like to go up there on my own and my mate who walks his dog and is into birdwatching as well, animals in general and photography and all that and we have found lots of nice places together where we have found a kingfishers nest or a woodpecker hole which is in one particular place in the woods at the back of Whitbread’s where you are guaranteed to see a woodpecker. There are not a lot of places where you are guaranteed to see one. I go to Fairfield or Fowlbridge reservoir quite a lot birdwatching and I have been to Beul water before. Dungeness is probably the most local RSPB place I go to. But I still don’t think anybody can beat walking around your local area. You might not see anything out of the ordinary but I think that, again I don’t go there every other week, sometimes I go there every other day, sometime it will be once a month, but I always know where I go in certain areas I am going to see that. There is one particular area know when you go over the wagon bridge behind the iron girders. They have left all that now and that’s just lots of shrubs and trees now. That used to be a cornfield there. Int: At the corner of Bullen Island? MrR: As far as observation they should just leave that as it is now because me and my mate were up there the other day and we just stood there and there were families of long tail tits which are not all that common were just flitting around and they came right up to us which is a good sign, which means that they get disturbed or whatever. I was up there for a good hour in the same place just watching things fly about, there’s a lot of things up there. There are green woodpeckers up there which you see quite a lot. Obviously the more naturally they leave it the

better. There are a lot of things now the footpaths have actually ingrained which means that people are sticking to one footpath rather making it about 5 or 6. I very rarely stray from the footpath, occasionally I go through the woods, but most of the time for birdwatching footpaths are the best place because in the woods it is too cramped and you can’t see. I always keep to the path so obviously good paths are quite important there. The last time I walked along the main path which is shut off at the moment there was a couple of bits that still dipped down towards the water and if you are careful there is no reason why that should be dangerous. As far as I can remember when I used to go up with my Nan and my mum there were always bits that you would have to edge around. It is a lot better than it used to be definitely. I don’t know whether they actually go up there to cut the trees or anything. Obviously as my Nan lived backing onto the river we used to go up there quite a lot as kids and stuff. I wasn’t into bird watching as much when I was a kid but I can still remember it quite well. All the fields by the lock were all farm fields, again I don’t know whether someone has bought them and just left them deliberately or whether someone is planning to build on them. I don’t know who owns that land down there. Int: I think it may be set aside or a scheme for .. MrR: Well yes they were pretty small fields really, not like something that was going to affect anyone’s business. It’s like when they build out the back here, it is for sale and I think people want to buy it to build houses but they weren’t allowed to build houses and it reverted to farm again. They are more leaving things to get on with it really, letting the countryside manage itself. I am looking for a job at the moment and I would like to get a job as a warden and make lists of this hedge needs trimming back and this farmer’s field is encroaching too much. There is a job, I don’t know what the title of it is but it is the sort of job I would like to do, just going around and keeping an eye on the countryside. I know they have started turning natural hedgerows into nature reserves. Wardens go around checking the hedges and I think that is a good idea because that is why we are seriously lacking areas as far as birds go because of the hedgerows which are going. We get quite a few hedgerow birds up Little Mill because there are hedges all around the field so the birds can go into the field and back into the hedges and the field. That is what they need, there is not really much. There are fences everywhere now and fences are not really all that good. I think that is a good idea, setting aside people to build bushes and a lot of the people in the fields now leave so many metres around the edge so that they are not disturbed. Over where my mate lives he has noticed a few of the fields over there and it can’t affect the farmers that much leaving a few metres of land around the edge and that obviously must help everything really, there are rough grounds where you get all the insects and the birds can build their nests and no-one will notice. Again I buy the bird magazines and they quite often say in there that it is more Norfolk that there are a lot of birds starting to breed again which were not here before, and that is through their management skills of making reed beds and that sort of thing. We have a good majority of everything around here. Some things you don’t really see. My mate was walking along up to the wagon bridge and he has seen water voles along there which is something I have never seen all the time I have walked there I have never seen a water vole, they are there. We haven’t got a lot of reed beds now because that stream that runs from Little Mill to the main river is actually owned by a fishery company over in Addingford so that used to just be wild along there but they go along and trim it all now, but I don’t think that actually goes any good for the birds, but again I was walking along there the other day and saw a kingfisher so it is obviously working. The animals are still up there. I saw

two dragonflies up there the other day which you are not supposed to see in November, but because it was quite warm I saw them. I actually saw a tortoise shell butterfly as well which was quite surprising. Int: Speaking again about the bank restoration that was done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, what kind of affect do you think that will have had on the wildlife. MrR: Well I suppose if you are using concrete there is no way the birds or the voles can nest in the banks, I would say that is one way it would affect it. I would probably say that I think what they used, hardcore with mesh, I am sure if the birds did want to nest in the hardcore I am sure they probably could, there’s no reason why they couldn’t. Because it wasn’t the whole bank it was just little bits here and there, there is still plenty of bank along there. It’s mainly the kingfishers really that nest in the bank there is not really anything else. I saw one nesting up there so it is obvious that there is a nest between the Weir and Branbridges on a certain point again. If you sit there long enough you are guaranteed to see one or the other of them come back either the male or the female so obviously that hasn’t affected it. Int: Oh I thought it looked like the right kind of bank for kingfishers but I couldn’t see where they were. MrR: Well there is one that you can see better from the other side. My girlfriend and I were up there one day walking along and it flew by us. We just carried up walking to the weir turned around and came back past the industrial estate and she just happened to see it on a log. We kept watching it and could see it going in and out along the bank and since then I have known where it is. You can actually see it from the other side now before the locks, you can go that way and look across the river and look straight at it. Every time I have been there it is still there so there definitely are kingfishers along there, cormorants as well and herons. I saw a heron in someone’s garden actually sitting on their fence, I thought it was one of those plastic ones you put by pond and I looked and thought that was a strange place to put one on the fence, and when I got my binoculars it flew off, but it really did look like a plastic one that someone had stuck on the fence because it was in such a strange place. Again you get quite a few herons around here,more often than not you see them flying you don’t actually see them landing, they are quite common. I saw some jays the other day getting the acorns. There is nothing around here that is lacking that should be here, you can see ducks and grey wagtails and things like that which are not all that common. We get one of those up at the weir because they like flowing water and again it is pretty much guaranteed that every time you go there you see or hear it and that’s not a common species, you will find it mostly in places where there is fast clean water so it must be that the water is getting cleaner. I suppose more companies are watching how they dump, a lot of companies used to just chuck their stuff in the river and nobody questioned them, whereas now there are a lot more people going along saying what’s that in the river and ‘phone someone up and say that there is a leak or whatever in the river. I think generally it is a lot cleaner so that if they are talking about making a fish run the only reason you would build one of them is for salmon, and if they think the water is clean enough for that it must be doing quite well I should think. It will be interesting to see what they do eventually do to the weir. I assume that they must be rebuilding the whole lot because it is quite old.

Int: Is it. MrR: Well it has been there as long as I can remember and probably a lot longer before that. What they seem to have done at the moment is that one of them is still working normally and they have blocked one of them off so they are obviously going to work on one and do the other one after. All the time I am off work I will be going up there regularly to see what they are doing and keep an eye on it, it’s always interesting to see what they are doing. At the moment they are making a right racket up there, they have been pile driving and all you can hear all night is dunk, dunk constantly until quite late sometimes 7 or 8 pm. They must have lights up there to see what they are doing. I didn’t go up there today so I don’t know how well they have got on with it, and I didn’t hear them banging today either so perhaps they have actually finished what they are doing and they are going to start taking the old weir to bits. That will be interesting to see them doing that. I am not really into fishing but I used to go fishing quite a lot with my friends who used to go up there last year. They were pulling all sort of fish out, big pike, there are a lot of big fish in that weir. I think the biggest they have ever caught that I have ever heard of people catching in my lifetime was a 37lb pike, which is pretty big and that was the biggest one I have known to be caught. My friend caught a couple last year which were 12 or 13lb, a lot of roach and perch as well. That particular bit by the weir is a good bit of water because it is flowing and it’s obviously fresh and they like the silkweed as well which catches up in the weir. Again as far as I know, because there was a big bit of bank that crumbled away there on the other side of the weir and I don’t know whether that is why they are repairing it, perhaps it is subsiding, but we will see when they do it. Again, as long as they don’t try to modernise it too much, but I don’t suppose they will they will probably use the basic outline of the weir and perhaps just replace the inner bits. At Oak Weir there is like a kind of electric big metal thing over there now. I suppose it doesn’t make much difference really what the weir looks like as long as it works right and the same. Int: Thinking of the works down at Branbridges and Oak Weir, what do you think have been the benefits of those works to local people? MrR: Well I should imagine that people that perhaps wouldn’t have wanted to clamber around the bits that were broken down, although I didn’t use to mind I would go clambering through the woods and that to go around the gap, but obviously a lot of people wouldn’t go up there because there was a hole in the path and they couldn’t get through. Perhaps they would have taken their dog for a walk somewhere else. A lot of people do take their dogs for a walk up there. I would say the majority of people that go up there are dog walkers, whether it be just around the field or around the river. I have spoken to quite a few people who say hello to you as you walk around there. One man I used to see up there all the time who has lived here all his life used to walk his dog up there all the time. Again he used to take his little cutter along and trim the bits of the hedges, he used to do his little bit. He went along there every day with his dog, so I should imagine that they are the people it has really helped, those people that go along there all the time. Int: Did you hear anything about the works before they took place? MrR: Not them ones I didn’t no. Most of the time you get the Kent Messenger and Courier and quite often they put things in there if there is going to be some work done or anything like

that, but I don’t remember hearing anything about those ones being done. Again I just remember walking up there and seeing that they had put this mesh in. At the time I think I may have been working down the bottom of the road by Arnolds and obviously that was the main bit they did. They rebuilt the bank by the actual bridge and obviously just a few bits further along. I can’t really think of the bits they have done up over there because it has been a long time since I have been up there and I very rarely walk around the river up there, it is usually down to the weir and off again. I think that what they actually did was needed, whatever happened it had to be done somehow so I think the way they did it seemed to be about the best way because still from the surface it looks like a mud path or whatever, but underneath you have the rocks and the netting. I suppose in some ways it could help perhaps it is good for animals to nest in or whatever, I don’t really know. Like I say I don’t think that anyone has said it looks horrible. No-one has ever said that to me walking around so I would assume that no-one has complained about it. Int: Perhaps you can say what part the river plays in your life. You have actually said quite a lot about it? MrR: Well I suppose the fact that it has been the main place around here for me to go with my binoculars bird watching. Sometimes just to walk about up there is quiet and relaxing, it is all greens and browns and is just one of those places that I can go and sit up there for ages. I meet my friend up there sometimes and we just sit there and sit in the woods somewhere, we have little camps to sit in if it is a bit wet or whatever. I suppose even from the times of being a kid really once I started going up there on my own it was more we would go up when we were young kids or groups of us camping or playing and staying up there playing in the woods and stuff. We were into soldiers and that sort of thing and we used to go up there and play. I suppose then I had a break from going there until maybe the last 3 or 4 years ago I have been going there regularly birdwatching. Again probably being unemployed here at different times has given me the time to actually go out and do it. I am quite happy to do it all the time really because I do like walking up there. Like I said if I could get a job involved in that sort of thing then that would I have never really found a job that I like really. I do jobs but I don’t really like them, whereas that sort of thing I could quite happily do. It would be a job like a forest ranger or something like that. They do advertise them in the paper but they usually want experienced people. Int: How about the rest of the village, what part do you think the river plays in their lives? MrR: In the summer a lot of people go up there swimming and barbecues. Int: They go swimming do they? MrR: Oh yes, I have been swimming loads of times in there. I haven’t been swimming for quite a few years but we used to go up there a lot when we were secondary school age from 13 upwards. There are people still swimming in there now taking their canoes up there and things. People go up there after being to the pub in the summer. If they know someone is up there they will go up and find them and go for a swim. It probably gets used more in the summer but it is no good me going up there in the summer because I just get hassled. My idea of going up

there is to relax I like being on my own and my mate who is into birdwatching. All my other friends are into going up there to sit about in the summer and get a suntan and do a bit of swimming. Obviously again walking up there in the summer you get the schoolchildren in their holidays. They are always up there in the summer, they go swimming and different sorts of things. So I would say that it does play quite an important part really in the village life. Again it works the other way. You get the people who just walk their dogs up there for years and probably always will do, no matter how it changes they are always going to walk their dogs up there. Whitbread’s has just changed hands now but the different things that Whitbread had on can affect obviously another good of advantage of the river is that you will never pay to get into Whitbread’s, they are so many ways in that they never ever question the fact. Obviously they have got a big nature walk around the back and you can just walk around that and walk into Whitbread’s. In that respect it is good and the people from Whitbread’s quite often come into the river and find the village shops and I suppose in that way it does the village good in summer especially. People come from Whitbread’s in the summer through the river and on into the village. Int: Do you think that the use of the river, the way the people use the river was taken into account when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir. MrR: Yes, because I know up at Branbridges people do fish a lot and the bank up there is a good strong bank and is nice and flat,whereas it was always a bit dodgy. Again I remember when I left school I worked at Arnolds which used to be on the bridge, and you used to get people fishing over the Paddock Wood side of the bank and they always used to be clambering down it and it used to be like a muddy bank. Obviously now it is a fairly decent step and I think it has made things safer in that respect for people who actually want to get down there and fish, or perhaps if someone wanted to get out in their boat it would be better in that way. Before there was nowhere along that bank you could get out in a boat of if you fell in the river there was nowhere to get out, whereas now with that mesh you would be able to pull yourself out. So from the safety aspect I think it will probably be better as well. Actually having something to hold onto. That river does get going quite fast when it really rains and the flood things at Gillingham occasionally I can say that it go from being completely empty when they thin out the Gillingham, but when they don’t and let it go for a while they have the weir right open and it really does go along. If you fell in there then I mean. my mate’s uncle died in there when he was about 19 or 20. He was on his pushbike riding across one of the bridges and fell in and that was it. That was at the wagon bridge actually. There were a lot of undercurrents along that bit. Where the millstream joins the wagon, the main river, you can see it if you stand on the wagon bridge and look down you can see loads of little swirls in the water where the two join up and that’s where he fell in. There was another killed in Tonbridge, a canoeist. They are the only two I can remember in my time. I think she was found at Oak Weir actually but she actually drowned in Tunbridge. Other than that I have never heard of anyone, touch wood, falling in hurting themselves for years. I have fallen in a few times but not majorly only when I have been up there with my friends fishing or whatever and overstepped somewhere and slid down into the water. I have never known anyone walking along the path falling in. My mate walks along there at night and he relies on his dog to lead him. He said he goes along there at night and he can walk all the way from East Peckham to Addingford so there can’t be too much wrong with the bank or he would be in the water. A few years ago there were some big holes all the

way along that bank, you literally had to it went from the normal width of the path to a foot in some places and the rest of it was straight down into the water. There would have been no way of getting out if you had fallen in, whereas now those bits that they have built up have got those rocks so you actually have something to hang onto. In some ways that is probably quite helpful really. Int: How much do you think local people see the river as their property? MrR: I would say so. I must admit we have had when I used to go up there, I must admit I don’t go up there in the summer now, but when we used to as kids you always used to get people up there on holiday. They would come up there fishing for their two weeks holiday. That is quite common, every year you will get people from London and places like that actually coming up for 2 weeks for the fishing. I suppose when we were kids we felt it was our river. We used to sit at the locks quite often and open the lock gates for the boats and stuff like that. I suppose people do think of it as there’s. Especially a lot of the people I know, like my mate, although he lives in Latherford, he was born and bred in East Peckham, most of my friends have lived here all their lives so I suppose they do treat it as that really. It is part of East Peckham, we used to go to Mascall School and you would get all your mates to come to East Peckham in the summer because the river was there and you could go swimming in it and it was really nice, whereas there isn’t really anything like that at Paddock Wood or Tunbridge. It is just too built up, whereas East Peckham, and I suppose Golden Green is the same, they are the bits that are least built up from East Peckham to Tunbridge, there is nowhere along there. Whereas at East Peckham you have got the jetty and there are places to get out, there is a sandbank as well. I know there were people up there last year swimming. It has been a couple of years since I have been up there swimming but there were people up there last year swimming. I went up there for a walk and bumped into people I knew and they were all up there swimming, encouraging me to go in but I didn’t want to. I have seen a few people get ill up there with the wyles disease which is from the rats, but it is usually only sickness. Touch wood I went in there loads of times and never got ill, but it’s just a few people who swallowed a bit too much water and were sick for a few days, but it is more people who have gone in there and come out with nothing than go in and actually come out ill. Again I think that is just an unavoidable thing. Wherever you go in water there are going to be water rats and voles and things. Int: Can I ask you whether you were aware of or heard of any consultation with local people when they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrR: No, I am sure you asked me that last time and I don’t remember anyone coming around. I would have certainly aired an opinion of they had come around here or put it in the paper asking for anyone to air an opinion. I know there was a little thing in the paper a while ago about reintroducing otters and that further up this way. Again they didn’t have anything in there regarding local people. Ideally they want people that are going to go around the river and watch and keep an eye on it, that are going to be able to go there regularly and say I saw one today and it looked healthy or whatever. Again I don’t think that they advertised or anything for people to actually go somewhere and write to them to suggest ideas, I have never known that. I know there are a few things that I would write in and say now.

Int: Do you think local people ought to be involved when there are works on the river then? MrR: Yes definitely. Obviously not every local person but the local people who are interested in the river should be yes. If it is in the paper or they put a sign up somewhere in the village or a couple of signs around the village, the people who are interested will ‘phone up and say I go up there quite a lot. I know there are a lot of people who would be. I know quite a few people that I see up there regularly who would quite avidly say that this could be done or this should be left as it is and that should be changed. I think there is definitely a lack of that sort of thing, involving the people who it is actually going to affect. I don’t ever remember them saying about the work, that you are talking about, rebuilding of the bank. I don’t remember them publicising it or putting it in the paper. Again what they did didn’t really matter but if it was a big job that is going to affect the look of it then I think people should be involved really. Obviously the people that do the work go up there and leave it, they don’t have to walk by it all the time. I think people should be involved. Int: You mentioned that there were things about the river that you would point out. What sort of things are you thinking of? MrR: Well probably the things I have already told you really like agreeing the fact that they should set aside bits and leaving them as they are and not try and farm them again. I don’t know whether that is their plan but I think as much of that as they can should be left. Obviously all that bit years ago used to be a massive forest all the way past, well Whitbread’s side of the river used to be called the King’s Forest or something like that. As far as I am concerned there were probably thousands more birds. My friend was saying that all that bit from Whitbread’s to Oak Weir used to be a pheasant shoot 10 years ago, basically the gamekeepers up there shot everything, herons, sparrows, everything that flew they shot. Again I didn’t go up that part of the river much then but my mate used to go up there, he was into shooting with his air rifle more than anything and it was a proper pheasant shoot where they had people go and pay money to shoot the pheasants. He said you walked through the woods and just saw loads of things hung up, jays, herons. Obviously now there is no pheasant hunting up there and hasn’t been for 10 years and I think like he said now is everything is starting to get its feet again. The fact that the gamekeeper used to hang them up to scare the rest of the animals away, which doesn’t work. But over the last 3 or 4 years there have been declines in bullfinches definitely. I think the fact that there is no more hunting over there is definitely going to help matters. There are less trees but what trees there are seem to be pretty well populated which is a good sign. I think the main thing is that the more land they can set aside and just leave to go on its own then that would be my plan. If someone said that is what you had to do to it I would say right move everything back from the river and just let everything go. Obviously keep perhaps one good footpath with gravel and a real maintained footpath that people stick to. I don’t think anyone needs to be encouraged to go down there because I think eventually that would take the good you can go anywhere to a nature park whereas to go somewhere that isn’t a park and is pretty wild is a good area. There are a lot of areas down there like that. Int: Can I ask you a general question? What do you think a natural river is like? What’s your definition of a natural river?

MrR: I would imagine that footpaths, even hundreds of years ago I should imagine there were always footpaths, so I don’t think the footpath can affect the river, but a natural river I suppose is one with not too many man made things obstructing it, obviously the weirs and things are necessary, there is no avoiding them, but as long as there is perhaps a . I don’t know it is difficult really because you can’t really have a natural river, there are so many different types of river. I suppose natural for that river, it is pretty natural, it has probably not changed apart from it gets wider. The only one thing you can notice is the sides where the farming land is when you are walking along the river which is the East Peckham side, there are fences, there are no hedges which again that should be a hedge next to the river and the birds have a bit of cover. Other than that I would say it is a pretty natural river now that they have started to let things grow again. The only thing I think is that farming right next to it is not a good idea. That’s obviously not going to do anything any good. But probably in some ways it does other things good because you see the swans out in the fields in the summer, so it obviously does them some good. Int: How do you think the Medway compares with other rivers in terms of naturalness? MrR: Pretty good. I have been down to Devon and walked along rivers there. Obviously they are different kinds of rivers because it is very fast flowing and there are rocks in the water. You have only got to look at Tunbridge, the river flows through there and it is just houses and bricks all the time either side of it and big concrete things everywhere. I would say East Peckham you have got the locks and the weir but that looks natural to me, that is a natural part of a river. I think East Peckham as a rule is pretty natural. They have dug the ponds over the back of the industrial estate but because that has been left so long now it looks as though it is supposed to be there. Anything like that, I don’t know when they dug that if they were going to have some kind of fishing lake there or something originally, I think they were, but it got stopped. They dug these big gravel pits but they never used them and they just ended up filling up and when it floods they get more water going in. Again I think it is quite good for fishing there. You can walk around them. That again is not natural but it does look natural if you walk around it because there is quite a lot of big trees, which is obviously the sign of a natural area. The last 2 or 3 years all that set aside land and the lakes have just sprung up. You walk around there and it is way above your head. Before it was nothing. Obviously something must be working well around there because of the fact that it is growing so well. Everything seems to be growing thick and bushy which is good and it has probably attracted a lot more things that weren’t there before I should think. Int: What do you think about talk of restoring rivers to their natural condition? MrR: Again if someone can describe a natural condition of a river then they should do it, but it is going to be difficult to say what is natural and what is not. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think about that idea? MrR: Tamed as in around the river or tamed the actual river itself? Int: The actual rivers themselves.

MrR: As far as actually taming the rivers, well the water in the river is a good idea to be able to control the water, but as far as around the rivers I suppose fishing has played a bit part. If you go along any river you are going to find areas where you know people fish because you can see little clearings in the trees where they put all their stuff. To me that doesn’t affect the river in a bad way. Again you never see hundreds of fishermen along a river, there are always one every so far. I think that you can’t really have a wild place that people are going to visit regularly, you have to have a bit of both. If you have it really wild you are only going to get the real rugged types that trek through the stinging nettles. I probably would but a lot of people won’t they just want to go up there and walk their dog and aren’t particularly interested in wildlife or nature or anything like that, it is just a nice place to walk their dog. It is nice and quiet they can let their dog off the lead and it can run about and there are no worries. There are a lot of people who wouldn’t go up there if the footpaths were left go. I think you have to keep it middle of the road. Keep it as natural as you can but perhaps rather than having two footpaths just have one, that sort of thing, so you have still got a footpath there for those that want to use it and the people that don’t can walk through the woods or make their own tracks. Wildness is a good idea as far as the animals are concerned. The more wild it is, if there are no people up there then there are going to be a lot of animals, that’s the only thing, but what’s the point of having a big natural area that you can’t go and look at. You get nature reserves like Dungeness is a big reserve with paths and hides and that sort of thing, but I suppose with East Peckham and the river like this there is never any one place that you can be guaranteed to sit in a hide and watch. There are only certain times of the year that you can do that, whereas places like Dungeness again down in Devon I went to quite a few bird places and obviously most of it down there is up and down hills in Devon, but they are all pretty natural but they have all got a footpath around them. We went to one that was a real big old woodland that had real old trees in it and they have managed to combine that with a path, there were tree roots and that sort of thing on the path but it looked quite a natural path but obviously where so many people had been round it I think it was up to a waterfall and they managed to do that. It was a really wild looking place but with a footpath and they managed to achieve it quite well. Again if you are picking the right people to do it, I mean if you get some architect to come in and do it he will make a right hash of it, people will say we want this like that and so on with big concrete paths, whereas if you get someone who is into the wildlife and into the things that people are actually going to come there to see then you can thing well we don’t want a load of steps up there we will use wooden planks, because that is what they did and nailed them to the tree roots, so the tree is still growing and it looks more natural. It is little things like that. Like I said if someone said to me we want this bit of land and we want to attract people to it but we don’t want to make it look too man made then there are certain ways of doing it. You don’t go and put white railings up you keep it all nice wood. Around the woods at Whitbread’s there are bridges and little bits of fences and things but it is done in a subtle way. There’s always going to be people that want to go in the woods, whether it be to have a laugh playing army or with their air rifle or to go bird watching or something like that. There is always going to be people that are going to use the woods whether there is a path there or not so it is always better to have at least one good path, then the people who want to walk and not get filthy dirty can do and anyone else that want to go trudging through the mud can. I think it is just a matter of finding a happy medium. Int: Do you think that controlling a river makes it more or less natural?

MrR: People have been controlling them for such a long time that if you want to make a river look natural you have got to go back thousands of years really, because people have been living by rivers and building round them so you can’t really describe a natural river. The only place you can probably get one is if you go perhaps into the Highlands in Scotland and you will see a natural flowing river. But even there is it not natural because people have been there and taken all the trees down. Wherever you go someone has already affected it so it is just a matter of making the best of what you have got. We are quite lucky in that there are still quite a lot of big old trees still up the river. A few got blown down in the hurricane but in some ways that has helped other things like the woodpeckers because there are a lot more dead trees. So I think that I have read in a magazine that the hurricane did in some ways help our woodland. It was a natural thing. It blew all the big trees down and the smaller ones got the light and they shot up and I think in some ways it has done some good. Maybe not the animals but in the plants terms, where perhaps there were two trees there both the big trees were blown down and 10 trees have grown up to replace them. In a lot of respects all this tree management works but a lot of time just leaving things to get on with themselves is the best way, because it has been doing it for thousands and thousands of years and it doesn’t really need looking after. If people are going to walk along somewhere all that needs looking after is the footpath. As long as people walk along the footpath the rest of it gets on with itself. Int: Thinking about the restoration works that were done do you think that it was based on scientific knowledge: MrR: Probably a bit of both. Obviously using the hardcore . Tape turned over Int: I’m in danger of pushing the wrong button. We were talking about how scientific the restoration was. MrR: I reckon that it was down to money. It wasn’t down to what would look nice it was down to what we can afford probably. Chances are that probably was the cheapest way, the wire mesh and the big rocks because it takes up a lot of space but without using a lot of material, whereas if they had built it up property with gravel it would eventually have subsided again, whereas the way they have done it they have guaranteed that is not going to wear away, no matter how much the river you will probably end up with the rest of it being worn away and there will be just a big mesh block with a load of blocks in it, because it will not wear, the rocks will wear eventually but the mesh will keep that bank solid. Certainly in that respect it is probably quite good. From what I can remember they haven’t actually done it on any main.. the areas aren’t big enough to affect it, I would say it’s probably down to money as to whether it is scientific or not. It is obviously scientific because it works. They have obviously worked out the cheapest way of doing it that’s most effective so I suppose it is scientific, but yet I would say that they have made it look natural enough so it looks alright. Int: Thinking about those works, do you have confidence in the people who did them? Do

you trust them to have done it right? MrR: Yes, I think the idea of being allowed to have some input into it would be a good idea for the people who actually wanted to involve themselves in it, perhaps even giving people the change to go and help. You get these volunteers groups that go and clean out the ponds and keep an eye on their local environment. I don’t think that is a bad idea because there are people around who genuinely care. Like that old boy I used to see every day, he would be walking his dog and would have his clippers chopping things that were sticking out across the footpath. All he has to do is taken a bit of time and spoken to the River Water Board or whoever and he could do a lot more of that. I think they should have certain people that are going to go up there and ‘phone them up and tell them that the bank is crumbling away or I have noticed that there’s some spillage in this part of the river or things like that. There should be a number that you can call. Nothing like that is readily available you have to ‘phone up about 50 different people before you find the person that you want. Int: We were talking about the people who did the works on the river and whether you felt confident in them. MrR: They obviously do it.. I don’t know whether they are specialists at just doing rivers or something, I don’t know how they work it out. The only thing I could say is that they should definitely consult, either have one person available or a few posters in the village or an advertisement somewhere in the paper or something just to say that we are having a meeting wherever. Again for meetings a lot of people tend to say that they will go but they don’t really get to go and do it, whereas if there was a ‘phone number where you could ‘phone up and say I think this or I suggest that I think that would be the easiest thing really to be able to confer. Obviously the people that do the work probably aren’t really the people who design it all. They are just people up there doing the work and they are getting told what to do. There are one or two people that decide what gets done and I think that they are the people you should be able to speak to, those that finally decide what is going to happen there, who make the decisions. Chances are those people probably don’t live around here perhaps they just come here to do their job. They probably go around all the rivers and work out bits that have been broken away or whatever and just fix them, but I think it should definitely be local people who are the ones that decide what goes on there. Int: Have you heard about the Medway River Project? Have you come across that at all? MrR: Yes that’s about the Medway Valley walk and all that isn’t it? Int: Yes that’s right. MrR: Yes I have because I bought the book. MrR: I know my mate has also said the same that if there is anything he could get involved in, because obviously again he walks his dog over there all the time, it’s the same sort of bit of river all the time and any differences he tends to notice.

MrR: Yes that can get you in. It’s a good idea. Again there’s not many places around here that do voluntary work. If you leave near these big reservoirs and things they have things on reservoirs, but with rivers there’s not a lot that volunteers can do, a lot is done by diving teams and dredgers and things like that. As far as just little things like keeping an eye on the footpath and things, if he’s got the whole river to cover then surely it’s better for him to get people on each section to ‘phone into him and tell him when things aren’t right, and if you notice that a tree has half fallen into the river and things like that. There are probably people now that ‘phone the council but it would definitely be worth ‘phoning him up.

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INTERVIEW MEDWAY 5 Int: The works were done in 1993-94, so that would have probably been about the time you were arriving here. They were done at Branbridges, which is down by the bridge, and at Oak Weir, which is. I can show you. I think that’s probably the part. Here’s East Peckham and here we have Snoll Hatch. There’s the Branbridges bit up there. Oak Weir is along here, so if you come down to the river from Snoll Hatch it means you turn right. MrsS: I don’t think we have actually walked as far as that. We have done all this part and come up, I was up there all the way to Yalding once years ago. I will have to go and have a look. Int: The scheme was down here. MrsS: I think there was some work going on, because we went down there on our bikes. We cycled around parts of here, but there were parts closed off, I think there was some gas work or something going on and it was fenced off at one point. It was very muddy where it had been churned up so we didn’t go any further and set off somewhere else, so it might have been when they were doing something there. Int: Yes, that might have been those works. Do you remember the bank restoration work going on at Branbridges at all? MrsS: No I don’t. That was probably the time we came here and I don’t remember that. The only time we walked up that part and followed the course of the river, went over the road and over to Yalding was the first summer we were here. There was a raft race and we followed the rafts up the river. Int: What year would that be? MrsS: That would be 1993. Int: Right that was just before the works were done. MrsS: I knew there was something being done to the bridge there but I wasn’t really aware of anything else. I suppose we tend to set off down the road and then we walk up to the locks and then back through here and back again, it’s a circular walk that we do. Last Christmas it was frozen over, completely frozen over, I have never seen anything like it. The first time we went down the locks were frozen, and we went back a few days later when it had got really, really cold and the snow had stopped and it was freezing and it was totally frozen over. There were swans walking around on the ice looking miserable and there was another large bird, I can’t remember what it was now. It was certainly something. The icicles down on the lock were amazing. Int: Yes I can imagine it being a wonderful scene. MrsS: I know they are doing a lot of work over there are the moment. We walked over a

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couple of weeks ago and there are parts of the path closed off. We had to go over the bridge you couldn’t go over the weir. They have been working there for weeks. There is a big crane over there now and there has been persistent banging for weeks. Int: I was going to ask you how successful you thought those two works had been? MrsS: I don’t really know that much about it. I know the path is good. When we have walked up which was probably just after the work was done there were good paths to walk up. We walked all the way to Yalding. We didn’t actually know where we were going. We got to the point where we realised that it was probably easier to carry on to Yalding than to turn back. It’s a lovely walk along there and it’s nice that it is so open and you can walk so far. There are parts along here, I know that they have done some work on the banks along the part we walk along, because there were parts where it was very dodgy when we walked past with the children. I notice that those have been done within the last few years. It gets very overgrown in the summer, stinging nettles mostly. I can’t really say as I haven’t been down to that part. Int: Right. What do you think have been the benefits to the local people of the works to restore the river? MrsS: Well just somewhere to walk. I now that the dog walkers use it. One of the bridges I noticed has been repaired recently. They have been dredging one part because we decided to look at it. We got our wellies all stuck in the mud getting some old bottles out. Actually that’s one on there. I suppose it is somewhere basically to walk. There are some good circular walks and for us it’s ideal because we can go down the road and it’s ideal to go across that area with the children on their bikes as well. There are parts along the river you can cycle along and you don’t have to worry about them with cars or anything. They can charge off on their bikes. As long as they don’t fall in the river they are all right. Int: Do you worry about them falling in the river? MrsS: If we are on a narrow part they get off and walk, otherwise they are OK. Obviously in fact you are aware of the danger of the river and they know perfectly well you don’t go right up to it. We have seen youngsters fishing right on the edge and very young children being left out on their own, let alone going near the river. It is dangerous. If you go in there you haven’t got a chance. It really flows fast. Sometimes when it has been raining a lot we have seen people zooming down on canoes. Int: Perhaps I can ask you a general question about what part you think the river plays in the life of the village here, the local community? MrsS: Years ago it was very much part of local industry and the area built up around it. I think now it’s mostly seeing people out walking and fishing. If you go out around the back you can see the balloons from Whitbread taking off. I think most local people go across to get a good view of the firework display or nothing. I think really just recreational. I object to fishing anyway, I don’t like to see people fishing. The sad thing is that there is a terrific amount of rubbish left there. A lot of overnight fishing with bonfires and things. The cans and stuff over there is horrendous. It doesn’t seem to get cleaned up very often either. It really has spoilt it in parts. There is a lot of rubbish. You can tell the parts where they sit and fish and leave a lot of rubbish. Obviously there’s a danger to the wildlife with the rubbish that is left there. Int: What sort of wildlife are you thinking about?

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MrsS: Well anything really. We don’t get a lot of swans on the river now but there are a few that come up now and again. There’s a danger with fishing line or any sort of rubbish. Any animal will go for it if you have food in it. The cans and there’s glass left there, there’s a danger to the children as well and it looks unsightly. Int: Any other ways in which the river plays a part in the lives of the local community that you are aware of? MrsS: Not really that I can think of. There are probably people around who have their boats and can go down, but it’s not a part to start off on, they are more likely to have moorings at Yalding or somewhere, so I suppose that can attract people. Int: How about the local landscape? How important is it to the local landscape, what part does it play there? MrsS: Well very much so, rivers always attract people, it’s something to walk along, it’s nice to look at. There’s always the danger of flooding. Evidently some years ago before the flood defences were put in, this house was half way up with water from what I understand from people when it flooded across Whitbread’s. Int: When was that do you know? MrsS: I think it was back in the 60’s. Obviously when we had searches done on the house we were told there was no danger of flooding, but I have a friend who lives up near the locks and she gets very worried. They were on orange alert a couple of years ago during the really wet autumn. There is always that worry. Of course the field holds it because it is so flat as well, lots of the fields have a lot of surface water. The river was very, very high. Int: Was that a worry to you personally? MrsS: At that time I used to look out, from the back I can look out and see the locks and yes I thought supposing that did flood, are we going to get it here as well, we do rise up slightly. I think they flooded the fields at Tonbridge at the park there. That was amazing because there were flocks of geese swimming around in between picnic tables and climbing frames. I don’t think so now unless we have very unusual weather. It is very open across there. I think I would like to see a lot more trees around. There are close to the river but from this side across I certainly think we could do with a lot more trees along there. Int: What part does the river play in your life? MrsS: Really just somewhere to walk. Especially in the summer when it was really hot, I can’t stand the heat so I stay indoors. In the evening it was quite nice to say we will just go or a walk along the river and it was quite pleasant. Again you can walk down that way and across to Little Mill, to the pub, and walk back again, and we did that one evening. Nowadays, you can’t as we did when we were kids, we used to go out or a 6 mile walk all through the lanes and everything, you can’t now. It’s very difficult. Even taking the children out on bikes along the lanes we have had problems, so it’s really somewhere else where you can feel safe walking along. You can cut across down by the river and the fact that there are a lot of footpaths running along the river and to the river does help. You can walk to the pub as well.

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Int: As long as you don’t drink too much and fall in on the way back. There have probably been a few of those in the past. Do you know of anybody drowning in the river? MrsS: Not that I have heard of since I have been here. I am sure there have been in the past, but not that I know of. Like I said I have seen plenty of silly children playing down there. I wonder whether around the locks themselves there should be barriers because you can actually go near the edge and look over and I know you can’t put barriers all along the river, but at that point which attracts the children, especially with the boats going through. It’s not that often that we do see a boat going through. I took my stepdaughter down there one day and we did actually watch a boat going through. Occasionally I have been out in the field at the back and you can just see the top of a boat. You can’t see the river at all but you can see the top of a boat. It’s really weird. Int: Right. Do you think when they did the works on the riverbank, they took local views into account? Are you aware of that? MrsS: Hopefully. It’s very well signposted along there. The bridges and the stiles are all well signposted and it’s obviously very well geared up for people walking along and using it. Certainly actually as far as wildlife is concerned it’s rather nice that the river does attract them. Unfortunately it attracted one of my ducks and it flew off. Int: They are given to deserting aren’t they. MrsS: Yes it was one I got from the market, I didn’t like the way she was being handled. She was left and the edge and she decided to fly off and she came back but then went off again. We get quite a lot of birds that are attracted by it and they were making a heck of a racket yesterday. Int: Do you think that it is important that local people’s views are taken into account when works are done on rivers like the Medway? MrsS: Yes I think it’s very important as far as footpaths and things are concerned. The work they have been doing, when we went over a couple of weeks ago they had to close some footpaths. They had put out diversion signs which was good. I would have liked to have seen something saying what they were doing because there were just diversions and temporary buildings. We actually wandered off through the woods the other side and came back onto the path and then found that it was blocked because it was closed and had to wander back again. Obviously we shouldn’t have been on that bit of path but there was nothing further down to say. There are so many footpaths zig-zagging the woods that you are bound to come out on the path somewhere. We were just able to deviate around it OK it didn’t cause any problems. I hadn’t actually seen anything to say they were going to do any work or what it was about. We were only presuming, having seen the crane and having heard some sort of pile driving machine, I presume they are strengthening the weir. But I don’t know what they are doing and it would be quite nice to know. Int: Right. Thinking about the river near here, how much do you think people see it as local property? How involved do they feel in the river? MrsS: I don’t think a great deal. Probably among the dog walkers then yes they tend to use it more regularly. Sunday afternoon you often see families out along there. I don’t feel that there

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is a great involvement from the village. As far as the rubbish is concerned it would be nice if there was something organised to go and clear it up. I don’t know of any group or organisation that’s involved in doing that. I know quite a bit of Whitbread’s private property has footpaths that take you across, but I can’t see anything particularly. Int: How about yourself. How involved do you feel in the river? MrsS: It’s nice if we have had visitors over sometimes. We have taken all the children out for a walk and again use that circular route. It is nice to go across and have this walk nearby. That is nice and we do feel that it close by. If ever that was closed off or we weren’t allowed to use it for any reason we would feel very upset about it. It should be there for everybody to walk around. It’s nice to take visitors across and they are always very interested. I have had friends come around and they have gone off walking by themselves and done parts of it that we haven’t. We have actually marked on the local footpath map the parts that we have done and when we go on holiday we have to have somebody stay here to look after all the animals so we leave them the map and they have gone over and taken their children on bikes and walked along the river as well. It’s very much an amenity we feel is ours. Int: How often do you go down to the river in winter and summer. MrsS: Not a great deal. Probably more in winter because you can’t work outside always and especially when it’s been snowing or Christmas we often go for a walk down there. It’s not too far before the children get too cold or grumble too much. Of course on the other side there is a lovely big field that when it’s been snowing you can go and write all sorts of things in the snow. In fact when we went down a few weeks ago it was the first time we had been down there for months. Again it is usually when visitors are over and we try to go somewhere a bit different. You get fed up with the same walk with the children and they get fed up. They like wandering around the woods and finding little paths and things. Probably when we haven’t got the children we will go out walking more. Int: Thinking again about the village and its involvement, do you think there are groups of people that are involved, and if so which ones do you think it would be? MrsS: I don’t really know to be honest. Mostly I see the dog walkers over there. As far as groups or anything I haven’t been aware of any. The historical society have had an interest in the river but that’s about it. I have seen the river vans going up there quite often. Int: They are the National Rivers Authority vans are they? MrsS: Yes. I don’t know if there’s any fishing club. There are some private fishing rights on the other side of the river and there’s probably people who belong to some sort of group that go along there, but I don’t know of it personally as I am not very happy about fishing. Int: Yes all right. MrsS: I have got a nice badge that says fishermen smell. My husband hasn’t been able to go fishing for years because the children are against it as well. Int: Are you are aware of the local people being involved or being consulted at all about the river works?

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MrsS: I don’t think so. We haven’t personally. I presume the parish council will know what’s going on or anything that’s affecting it. There have probably been notices and maybe I haven’t looked at them. I do look at the parish notice board when I can, but not personally I don’t know of anything. Int: Do you think local people should be involved in some way or consulted about works to the river. MrsS: Well they have a special noticeboard up for the Hale Street bypass, which again I haven’t looked at. That has been showing what stages they are at and what they are doing. There seems to be a lot more consultation about that. I would have liked to have seen the same thing about the work they are doing over there now, showing the progress and what they are doing and why and if footpaths are going to be closed just saying that they would be closed or a while, that sort of thing. There could have been a little map with all the details on, but as I say I haven’t seen anything. There’s certainly nothing on the parish noticeboard at the moment. Int: Is that notice up at the Hale Street works? MrsS: No it’s right in the village, just opposite the village stores so that anybody walks by looks at it. I have seen people looking at it quite regularly. There seems to have been quite a lot of consultation about that. I am one of those people who are in two minds. I’m not a great lover of building new roads, I think they just go faster, but I can see the point of the people that live along there because I have got friends who literally have lorries going two feet from their house. Something needed to be done but I’m not sure if they have gone for the right thing. We will see when it’s finished. There’s so much wildlife being disturbed up there. I think they perhaps could have done the same thing for the work on the river. We were aware that something was going on, only because we walked across there a couple of weeks ago and we saw the machinery and we were diverted. Then the other day we kept hearing this continual banging. I thought it was someone from the farm over the road and then I realised it was going on for longer and longer. In the end we were shutting the windows because it was one of those noises that got to you after a while. Then we looked over and saw the crane over there and realised that they were using some sort of pile driver. That was going on and off quite a few days. It would have been nice to have known because people are saying where’s that noise coming from, what’s going on. I said there’s something over the river, but people didn’t seem to be aware of what it was or what was going on. Whereas if they had something on one of the noticeboards to say, people would have heard it and known what it was before rushing out and blaming somebody else. It was terrific because as it was going it was hitting the farm over the road and echoing and the noise was far worse at the front of the house than out the back where it was just coming across the fields. If you happened to be on night shift and didn’t know that was coming it would have driven you potty if you were trying to sleep. Int: Were they doing it during the night as well? MrsS: No just during the day, I am saying if you were on night shift and sleeping during the day, or not feeling well it would have driven you mad. At least if you know when it’s going to be or how long it’s going on for people are a lot more understanding about noise. If you just suddenly hear it you don’t know what it is, where it’s coming from or why. We still don’t know why or what they are doing. It’s obviously some sort of repair or strengthening work.

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Int: Can I ask you a general question now, which is what do you think a natural river would be like? What do you think of as a natural river. MrsS: I don’t know if there are any purely natural rivers now because they are all being dredged. I suppose I would think of a meandering one. I don’t know how much the course has been altered here over the years, but it seems fairly natural except that there are very deep banks. I presume at some time it probably has been lowered to cope with the amount of water. There is certainly not the flooding that there used to be years ago. I have a cousin at xxx and when the river flooded over there she watched it come up to her doorstep and luckily stop, it went into the neighbours and not her. I know that’s been improved a lot. I don’t know when you say natural river I suppose one where there isn’t industry along or one that meanders a lot more. It’s difficult to say really. Int: How natural do you think the Medway is? MrsS: I would say fairly natural along this side. I would think there has been quite a lot of alteration down towards Branbridges and where it has been used more. I think if you go further back up the river to Tonbridge it’s fairly natural. Int: What sort of thing marks it out as natural? MrsS: The fact that it is meandering. If a river is very straight you know that the course has been altered quite a lot. I think there are parts where, like at Tonbridge, there are no recreation areas around it, so obviously the woodlands that were alongside the river have gone. Of course as soon as you put a footpath along you are changing it to some extent but then you are making it there to enjoy. A lot of time I think footpaths along rivers are fairly natural anyway because people have been walking along rivers for years. It was a way of getting from one place to another. I don’t think I can really say. Int: How about the locks. How do you think they affect the river’s naturalness? MrsS: Well obviously they have had to be in for control because otherwise you would have had flooding in parts and going in dry in parts so it controls the flow of the river. It would be interesting to know what it would have been like before those were put in. I don’t know how long they have been there or how much control there is. Presumably before then there would have been flooding further up or further down with too much water coming in one point. You would have got larger flood plains presumably with the river being wider in parts and narrow in parts whereas it does tend to be fairly uniform now. I can’t say without knowing what it was like before really unless you go back a few hundred years to look at the difference you can’t really say. Int: Thinking again about natural rivers in general, can you mention a few features or characteristics that you would think of as making a river natural? MrsS: I suppose the fact that they meander and the fact that you would get more little islands and things forming or more trees along them. You wouldn’t get so many bridges and things. You would get more floodings. I am thinking about the river in Edenbridge where you get parts where there is almost a little beach bit appear where the cattle use it more so it will widening out, where the land is flat you can widen out and then go narrow again to get to the higher ground. Obviously you will get more little rivers coming off it. If there are various parts that do flood

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you will get different types of vegetation and things there. The land here would probably have been regularly flooded at one time, and it has had to be controlled. You couldn’t have a building close by it where there is a danger of flooding. I suppose we think of natural rivers as being more out in the countryside and a bit more pond forming, natural ponds that can be used by cattle and things. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think? Do you think we have tamed our rivers? MrsS: I think we have tamed everything really. We are a small over-populated island so it’s had to be. I think what has happened is that wherever you get water you get people and villages and towns and industries because they use the water, therefore they have had to alter it to their own advantage. I think with the main rivers I think that has had to be done because they have used it for transportation a lot in the past. I think this river would have once probably been quite busy. Now you don’t get anything apart from pleasure craft up this part. I used to live on the Thames and that was a very busy river. It has to be, whereas out in the countryside more the smaller rivers are not needed to be tamed so much. I think it is only our main rivers that happens to a lot. In the smaller rivers probably in parts they are very much as they always have been. Int: So it’s a mixture. Do you think controlling a river makes it more or less natural? MrsS: It makes it less natural but then it can have a lot of advantages for use. Like with the locks, I think it would have been very difficult for boats without those locks, short of them going down waterfalls and weirs and things. Int: Thinking about the way that we have controlled rivers, do you think it matters that we have controlled them? MrsS: Depends how it’s done really. I think if it is controlled taking the environment into consideration when it’s done it can be an advantage. If it’s done sensibly then it can encourage wildlife. Int: What sort of thing are you thinking of? MrsS: I suppose years ago there were parts of the land that couldn’t be used because it did flood regularly and so whatever is there got changed, whereas I suppose if that is controlled you have a more constant environment for the wildlife around. You are not going to be suddenly flooded out or suddenly dry up and fish left high and dry. Management can actually improve it, especially over the last few years when we have been looking at low water levels where it did completely dry out and lots of wildlife died because of it. Literally they were left high and dry. By working to control it that can improve. I think it’s a bit of both really. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, I know you are not really familiar with these, but have you any sense of how scientific the works were? MrsS: As I say I am not really sure what was done because I don’t know what it was like before. I know from photographs that years ago the river was probably used more by the industry so I know it is probably a bit cleaner now because they are not actually using it. I don’t really know. I know there were some improvements to the bridge but as far as I know

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apart from cleaning it up I don’t know what was actually done there. I know there are a few footpaths and it looks better along there and I think there were some new trees planted along there, it looks as though there are some quite young trees that I remember seeing. It’s only once that I have actually walked along that part. You tend to drive over it and don’t really see it. Int: On the whole thinking about the river in general, to what extent do you think those that manage the river and do works on the river have the knowledge that’s required to manage and do restoration work. MrsS: Well you just hope they do. I don’t know. You have the rivers authority, you see the vans chugging up every now and again so you just hope they know what they are doing and presume that they are doing it in the best way possible. Int: Do you have any opinion or feeling about whether they know what they need to know to manage the river? MrsS: Not really. I don’t know enough about it myself I don’t think. Int: Would you say that you trust them to manage the river? MrsS: Yes, hopefully if there is going to be flooding they will let you know. As I say I could have more of an opinion if I knew what they were doing and what was going on. It’s almost separate. Presumably if the parish council knew there has been some consultation there it must have been over footpath closures and things, but we are not right on the river and I think that makes the difference. I think if it were a village where the river runs right through it, more like in Yalding or in Tonbridge, I think we would be more aware. There is not a road that goes close to the river here so it is only really used by walkers, except where it crosses further up, but there’s not a park on it like at Tonbridge where you walk around the park and are more aware of things and it’s there for general use. It’s all really private ground with footpaths crossing. It’s there for us to use and we are not totally involved in the same way I feel about Whitbread’s which I hope will change. They own a lot of the land up to the river and things and hopefully that might make a difference. Int: Why are you hoping that might change. MrsS: Well it has changed hands, or is in the process of. Somebody locally who has bought it who always felt it was an under used place. As long as they don’t close the footpaths where one sneaks in the back. Again you see with Whitbread’s you always feel that they were there for money making and I felt that we put up with the noise from their special events and festivals. When you wanted a quiet day in the garden you suddenly got a loud speaker blasted over and I feel that having that they should have given local people concessions on going in, and so involve the local people more. Again it’s the same way with the river, just knowing what’s going on and involving local people. It does feel a bit cut off and I think unless you are somebody who goes out walking you wouldn’t go along by the river for any reason. It’s not like there are some pubs along it where people would actually go or a purpose. There are points where you can pick up a pleasure boat but there is nothing like that here. It could be used a lot more. It would be nice to see some pleasure trips or a bit of recreation ground around it where people can actually go down there and use it more. At Teston there’s a big picnic site so we have been there and had kite flying days where we have taken the children and gone for a walk and flown the kite and you can take a picnic. There’s not really that sort of thing close by. It is just fields

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there are footpaths and you can cycle through the hop fields and have our picnic and nobody minds but you couldn’t allow a lot of people to do that because it’s all private farmland and it would be nice if part of that was made into more of a recreation area. I think it would be good or the village as well if there was a way straight from the village to the river and the village was more onto the river yes people would use the river and the local shops and be more involved in it. You could come to East Peckham and not be aware that the river is only just across the field. It is not part of it, there’s nothing by it, no sailing shops or anything. When you go to some places where there’s a river you are very aware that you are in a waterside village, but this isn’t. Int: Right. Again thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, I know that you weren’t very aware of them, do you have an opinion about them? MrsS: Well not really knowing I can’t say anything about it, except that I have never heard anything against it. Int: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add about the river? MrsS: There are parts where you get across the back of Branbridges if you walk up to the locks there are really grotty areas across the back, where there is a lot of dumped stuff. Also a lot of scrubland and it’s very tatty across there. I do feel that something could be done with that. It would be nice if as there are bits of land that aren’t really used there. They have grown up because we have noticed the difference when we walked across recently. Where you could see right across the scrubland, the blackberries seem to have come up and little trees and suddenly it looks different, you are actually walking through something. But people do come and dump stuff. If that land isn’t used it would be nice if something could be made of it to make some sort of village amenity or to encourage people. Till we had moved here I don’t think I had ever been through the village. I have cousins at West Peckham and Hildenborough. We used to come through Paddock Wood on our way down to Woodhurst to my aunt’s quite a lot. All we would do is come down Seven Mile Lane and drive across the bridge and I wasn’t even aware that the village was here. There’s nothing to bring the people off the road into the village and there’s nowhere as you come along, like at Yalding where there’s the large green car park where people would actually park and go for a walk. I don’t think people would come to go to East Peckham and go for a walk along the river. Really unless you are local you don’t know that the footpaths are down there and that you can do these walks. There’s nowhere that people can park and use it for a picnic area or anything like that. Maybe once the Hale Street bypass is done that road will become much quieter and there are parts along there where you could actually make a car park and picnic area and have a café or something and a place for people to walk along the river, and I think if somebody did it then it would be a great amenity. Better still if they did something to bring people into the village. Tape turned over MrsS: We used to come to Tonbridge quite a lot. Sunday afternoons we always went somewhere whether it was Sevenoaks, Mill Park, Tonbridge and walk along the river. My dad, my brother and I would go in a rowing boat and my mother sat on the edge because she hated the water. So I knew Tonbridge quite well as a child. Certainly not this area. It was somewhere we could go through or knew of but didn’t actually come here. Whereas Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Tunbridge Wells were the places we would go to. Int: Did you know the Medway then as a child?

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MrsS: Only at Tonbridge. Yes I think my main connection was Tonbridge, Yalding, I can remember going to Yalding once. I used to love walking down by the river. It was nice if you were shopping in Gravesend. I mean if I were to see a big boat in I would be straight down there to look at it. It was a lot more interesting river because there was always something going on. You could walk along the river and occasionally see boats and sometimes canoes but you can walk along there and not see a single boat or anything, all you see is a few fishermen, so it is under-used in that way. It’s not like a busy river where there’s always something going by. I do like living by a river. I don’t know why because I can’t swim. I’m good at sinking. Int: Was the river one of the reasons why you chose to come here? MrsS: No we had been trying to move for a long time. It wasn’t at all the river. I don’t think I was even aware of East Peckham. Int: You can actually look out. MrsS: Yes it goes right back almost to the row of houses there, about an acre at the back. If you stand and look sideways across there you can see the top of the locks, so you can see a boat going along. Int: Oh right. MrsS: We can’t walk across there. If we go down the footpath’s there and you can walk down to the river along the bank and then come back in the other end of the village. It’s a very good circular tour. It’s ideal if you just want to wander out for an hour. Blow the cobwebs out of the children when they are arguing and you just can’t bear them anymore I say right get your coats on we are going out. It is lovely. When we first came here and took some walks along we saw this raft race advertised and we followed the rafts up to Yalding. My husband walked back down and got the car because we were all too tired. I think we tend to cover more of it further down but I suppose you could go to Yalding because you could park there. Again there is only so far you can walk from home with the children without them getting tired because you have got to come back again. That’s why we do the circular walk a lot, where I think if there was somewhere further down the river where we could perhaps park and then do the next part. We did that with an old railway line that went from Gravesend out to Longfields and across that way. We walked sections of the railway line at a time, we would park up somewhere and walk the sections. We have some wildlife up here. I actually saw a pheasant on the gate to the field there the other day. I thought one of the chickens had got out because the gate had been blowing open in the wind. When I looked I saw it was a pheasant walking across. I haven’t seen pheasants in the village before. I have had a greater spotted woodpecker a few times in the garden. There is Dutch elm disease in some of the trees so we have had them taken down and that used to attract the woodpecker. We occasionally get the geese flying over they make a heck of a racket and all my ducks look up. Int: Well that’s it unless there’s anything else you can add about the river. MrsS: I just wish somebody would do something about cleaning up the rubbish. I think that really spoils it. There are bits at the back of the industry there where you would expect a certain amount and the scrubland which is probably owned by part of Branbridges or Whitbread’s land, but certainly along the riverbank the rubbish that gets left. My husband gets annoyed when I blame the fishermen but it is. You go across there and see the little fires and all these cans and

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rubbish there and it’s such a shame. It spoils what could be very nice along there. And the dog pooh. When you walk back down the path that comes out at Snoll Hatch, because vehicles do use it, that’s where the fishermen drive up there and the water authority comes along, you get the grass ridge down the middle and I have to say to the children to keep off because there is dog pooh all the way along. How do you educate people. Even when we first bought the land out the back, the rubbish in the hedgerow where for years people had chucked things over. Since we have cleared it we don’t get half as much over there. They seem to have realised now that somebody is using it. The worse thing I found was a plastic bag of dog pooh. Somebody had taken the trouble to clear up after their dog and put it in a bag and just dumped the bag over our hedge. Charming. We find bits of old motorbike in there and all sorts. Again down by the river in the woods the stuff that’s dumped down there. There are old buckets and tin cans and lumps of metal sticking out that you can’t identify. I think that’s the main thing it just needs a good clean up or they will just carry on dumping. I suppose litter bins, come to think of it I can’t remember seeing any. I tend to march along and fill my pockets up. I can’t remember seeing any around by the locks but perhaps if there were some big rubbish bins maybe they would be used if they were close by. Up by the bus shelter the kids will gather up there at night and in the morning it’s full of litter. There’s a litter bin just around the corner, if they had put one just by the bus shelter they would probably put things in there. They just can’t be bothered to walk around the corner. Again if you put all these things in then you stop it from being so natural, but on the other hand you have footpaths and you are wanting people to use them and it is something people use then it wouldn’t hurt to have some bins. There is a park we used to go to a lovely woodland area. It was organised. The car park was flattened and they put all these wooden bins in and wooden steps up where you struggled up the slopes and somehow it was more like a country park and we didn’t want that. It wasn’t such a natural area and I think sometimes you can make things easier for people to walk along but it spoils it by putting all these wooden steps and neat little edges in. I think it’s finding the balance between keeping it looking natural and yet making it user friendly. With the bins, perhaps around the locks there which is already man made, why not some bins and try and encourage people to use those, especially on the other side, where you cross over from Kentish to man of Kent. It’s the Medway that divides it. Int: Oh right. MrsS: It’s known as Kent and Kentish man. Int: Which side is which? MrsS: This is the Kentish man side. It divides the county in two. There used to be arguments about which side was best, which side of the Medway you were born. I think this side is Kentish man and I think the other side is Man of Kent I could be wrong because the pub down the road is called the Man of Kent and it’s this side. I will have to check up on that. I did look into it years ago but I was living somewhere else then. I will have to pursue that. You get a lot of pubs called the Man of Kent or the Kentish Man. Int: I hadn’t realised there was a distinction. MrsS: Oh there’s a big association of Kentish Men and Men of Kent. I don’t know quite what they do. It’s one of those men’s organisations. Int: Oh right.

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MrsS: Oh yes the county is in two halves. I don’t think too much notice is taken of it these days. I think in days gone by, I would like to look into that actually. Int: Well thank you for talking to me it is good of you to give up your time.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 6 Int: I wonder if you have been down to the bits where they have done work? Let me see if I can find my map. The works were done in 1993/94 which would have been before you moved here. That’s Branbridges where the bridge is, that’s one place where they did work. The other place where they did work is way down here. MrsU: The only way we have ever walked is from there right along to the road down at the locks. Int: Oh right and you walk back to the road where the bridge is. So you would have walked past bits. The bit they did at Branbridges is right by the bridge. If you are walking towards the bridge it’s just to the left of the footpath. They did a little bit of bank restoration there. Have you noticed that at all? MrsU: No. Int: Well the works are quite minor so you don’t notice them very much. So I was going to ask you how successful you thought the restoration had been, but. MrsU: I don’t really know because we I didn’t see it before. Int: Right. When you walk down the river where do you go. Is it that circuit you mentioned? MrsU: Yes it is. Int: About how often do you go there? MrsU: About once a year. I don’t go down there very often. Int: Why’s that? MrsU: I am not a walker. Int: Well you have also got little ones haven’t you and they are not necessarily keen walkers. What part would you say the river plays in the life of the village, the local community and in your life? It doesn’t have to be any part. MrsU: I don’t know really. Int: You don’t have any sense about how much .

MrsU: Well my husband fishes down there but that’s about it. Int: Does he? How often does he go? MrsU: He has only just started and he has been down there 2 or 3 times. Int: Does he belong to a club? MrsU: No, not yet. Int: How did he get the idea? MrsU: From his brother I think. Int: Right. You don’t look as though you are too keen on that. MrsU: I’m not really. Int: Why’s that? MrsU: I don’t know I’m just not. Int: Fair enough. So he has been down there a few times. Any other feelings about what part the river plays in your life? MrsU: No I don’t think so. Int: OK. Do you have any sense that the use people make of the river was taken into account when they did the work, or don’t you have any views? MrsU: I don’t know because I don’t know what their aim was when they did the work because we weren’t here. Int: I’m just going to ask you a question about people in general and yourself. How much do you think people see the river and the work that was done there as local property and feel a sense of involvement with it? Do you have a view on that? MrsU: I don’t know. I’m not much help am I. Int: Well that’s fair enough. I don’t want to talk to people who are all frequent visitors. Do you have any awareness of people that are involved with the river or are most of the people you know not really bothered about it? MrsU: I don’t think anybody that I know goes down there. Int: Are you aware of local residents having been consulted or involved in any way in the works

that were done down by the river or have been done? MrsU: No. Int: Right. Do you think local people should be consulted and involved when works are done on the river? MrsU: I suppose they should yes. Int: Would you be interested to be involved if people were consulted or would you not really? MrsU: As I say I don’t go down there personally. Int: So it wouldn’t be something that would concern you? MrsU: No. Int: Right. Can I ask you a general question now? What do you think of as a natural river? What do you think a natural river is like? What sort of characteristics do you think a natural river has? MrsU: I have no idea. Int: Can you think of any rivers that you think of as natural? Any rivers that you have visited in the past. MrsU: No not really no. Int: I am thinking about the Medway here. How natural do you think the Medway is? MrsU: Well natural I would think. Int: In what sort of ways would you think it was natural? MrsU: Well it’s not tampered with. Int: What sort of tampering were you thinking of? MrsU: Well nothing’s changed, it’s just the same. I don’t really know. Int: I am just asking how you see it. You see it as natural, what sort of things make it natural? MrsU: Well nothing’s changed on it. I don’t really know to be honest. Int: Well if you don’t go there too often. Do you have any idea of what you think river managers would think of as a natural river?

MrsU: No. Int: The project we are doing is about restoring rivers. Do you think that you can talk about restoring a river to a natural state? MrsU: I don’t know much about rivers. Int: Do you think that’s a reason why people can intervene to restore a river and make it more natural? What’s happened to some rivers is that they have been put into concrete channels and they have been straightened and deepened. Some people now want to make those rivers more natural by breaking down the concrete banks and putting back the meanders and the different kinds of form to the bed and the channel. What do you think of that idea? MrsU: I can’t say whether I agree or disagree. Int: You haven’t experienced it. MrsU: No. Int: It doesn’t arouse any strong feelings in you one way or the other? MrsU: No. Int: We are asking the people who live near those rivers that had these works done what they think about them, but I am just wondering whether you had any views? MrsU: No I don’t really know. I’m not much help. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers, what do you think? Do you think we have tamed them? MrsU: In what way? Int: Well really it’s whatever way you might think one might tame rivers or control them. Do you think we have controlled or managed our rivers? MrsU: I don’t know. Int: Well in this area the works have been done to the river in order to prevent flooding and the river is controlled for that reason. What do you think about that? MrsU: Well I think that it is a good thing if it doesn’t flood houses and roads and things. Int: In the past East Peckham has been flooded. Did you hear about that when you moved here?

MrsU: It was quite a long time ago. Int: Did you hear about it? Int: Did you experience the river as a child? MrsU: Not really no. Int: Why was that? Did it not appeal to you or .? MrsU: Not really but we lived out of the village anyway. Int: Right, so you weren’t particularly near the river? MrsU: No. I saw photos and things of when it was flooded. Int: You weren’t living in the area at the time? MrsU: No, that happened before we moved here. Int: Do you think the kind of controlling rivers that I was talking about, do you think that makes them less natural? MrsU: I suppose it does, if it stops houses and roads and things being flooded. Int: We were talking about controlling rivers and whether when we intervene and control them it makes them less natural. Would you say it does or not? MrsU: I don’t know if it makes them less natural. I have never seen the work like the barrier and things that were put up so I don’t know what they are like. Int: Thinking about the people who managed the river and did the works here, do you feel that they have the knowledge to manage the river? Do you trust them to take care of the river? How do you feel about it? MrsU: I don’t know. Until I was interviewed the last time I didn’t even know that people managed the rivers. So I was unaware that people did manage rivers. Int: Yes well there are people whose job it is to do various things to rivers, like the works. Have you been aware of the work they have been doing recently at all? It’s probably a little bit too far away from here. MrsU: I can hear things down there but I didn’t know if there was a building going up down there. I didn’t know what was going on and I assumed it was a building. Int: Right. Is there anything else you would like to add about the river, any thoughts?

Anything that you would like to add about the village really and about the amenities in the village? MrsU: No I don’t think so. Int: There’s anything you are worried or concerned about particularly? MrsU: No, the village is fine. We lived elsewhere and I wanted to come back here for the schools. I used to go to school here. Int: So you are really quite local to the village. Was that the reason for wanting to come back? MrsU: Yes and friends. Int: Well if there is nothing else you would like to add. MrsU: Sorry I am not much help at all am I? Int: Well it’s good to talk to people who don’t have a lot of views on the river as well as those who do, because otherwise we get the feeling that it’s a salient feature for everyone, whereas obviously you are not. MrsU: I don’t go down there a lot really. With the dog I should really, but I don’t walk the dog very often. Int: OK, well thank you very much for talking to me.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 7 Int: Do you recall the works that were done on the riverbank in 1993/94? MrV: Not specifically to be honest no, which particular works? Int: By Branbridges as you are going out of the village to the right of the bridge. MrV: I know where you mean now. I wouldn’t have dated it 1993/94, but yes I know where you mean. Int: They did bank restoration works there. So do you recall those works there being done? MrV: Which ones? Int: The ones near Branbridges. MrV: Yes. Int: The other works were done further up the river in the Golden Green direction at Oak Weir. I don’t know whether you know that part of the river? MrV: Yes I haven’t been there for a while because the dog doesn’t go for long walks now, so obviously I go for a lot less walks than I used to. But yes I do know it and I do know the works that were done. Int: Well thinking back to those works, how successful do you think they were? MrV: I don’t recall any particular worries about them. Int: Do you recall any of the things that they did and what you thought about those? MrV: Only in a very general sense to be honest. I do remember that there were works and I remember there were great banks of dredgings from the river that appeared on the towpath, presumably where they had been improving the standard of the banks. Really, I’m sure you are actually talking to speaking who actually use the river by boat, it would probably be more beneficial talking to them. We have used the river but don’t go there very often. Int: So do you have any views on how successful those works were? MrV: I would have thought they were successful. Int: In what sort of way? MrV: As I say, I assume that the main object is to keep navigation satisfactory and we certainly see

boats of a reasonable size going up and down so obviously that has been achieved. When I have been on the river myself, on the river as opposed to walking along it, I have had no problems, so from that point of view I should think the work was all right. From the point of view of walking along the banks, I don’t think it has made a great deal of difference to be honest. Int: How about the look, the aesthetic thing. MrV: Ah well, the immediate effect certainly up at Oak Weir was very ugly indeed. I do remember that, but I presumed in time it would grow over and become green again. The immediate effect was very ugly. Int: Have you seen it recently? MrV: Not at Oak Weir no, I haven’t been there for years. Int: How about the look of the bit at Branbridges? MrV: Well that was never the most attractive part of the river by any means so I don’t think it made a lot of difference. Int: In terms of conservation or wildlife. MrV: It’s very good for wildlife, but I haven’t noticed any great difference. I must admit I am not in any sense a naturalist. One notices things as you are walking along to a certain extent. I do know that there are quite a good selection of birds anyway on the Medway. You see kingfishers there for example. I doubt if it is very much different now. Int: How about the acceptability to the public, how local people felt about those works? Do you have any comments to make? MrV: Not really no. Int: Right. You mentioned that you yourself were a boater is that right? You use the river for boating, is that right? MrV: We used to do quite a lot of river boating and canal boating in narrow boats and so forth for a hobby, including occasionally going on the Medway but more often going elsewhere for a holiday. Int: Right. Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, what do you think were the most important things that they did for the river? MrV: Well I assume it is maintenance of the banks and the towpath, whilst at the same time keeping the navigation channel open. Without management bits of the bank would slide into the river and the towpath disappears and the river gets less navigable. Int: What do you think has been the most important benefit to you and other people of those

works? MrV: Well to most people in the village I would say who walk there, quite a lot of people from the village do walk there regularly, it must be the maintenance of the towpath. Int: Any other things that you can think of that have been a benefit? MrV: Well as I say people who take boats on the river. Int: Before the works were done, did you have any expectations or did you have any awareness that they were going to do works? MrV: I remember being asked that when your predecessor came. My wife and I tried to think back and we came to the conclusion that we didn’t. I don’t really remember to be honest. I certainly don’t remember anything. Int: I was going to ask you whether you had any expectations and how they compared with what happened, but as you actually didn’t have any pre-knowledge then that’s OK. MrV: You tend to go there, not now being a regular walker there, I go there occasionally, one notices something else. For example they are doing quite a lot of work on the lock at the moment, which I only discovered when I walked down there the other day. No doubt there have been notices up saying this was going to be done but I hadn’t seen them. Int: What part does the river play in the life of the local community would you say? MrV: Why does it have to. I suppose most communities feel strongly about the way we use our rivers, but it does play a significant part from a recreational point of view, it’s good walking ground, some people fish and boating, which is not particularly limited to the village obviously, but mostly it’s walking, which is really not a great deal considering the potential of the river Int: In what ways do you think it’s potential is not being used? MrV: Well carrying heavy goods. Int: Oh right. MrV: Like our canals and many of our rivers. Int: You would like to see more use for transport purposes? MrV: I would. Int: Of course the Medway used to be a big navigation path. MrV: Indeed. Barges used to go regularly into Tonbridge. They all go by lorry now don’t they

and then complain about the fumes and traffic congestion. Int: That’s very true. So for yourself what part does the river play in your life? MrV: Oh I like walking there. I’m very fond of the river actually. Yes very fond. I think it’s a lovely river and we don’t realise how lovely it is. When you actually go on it, particularly as we do, we go on many others as well, and you realise what a lovely river it is. Int: How does it compare favourably with other rivers and canals? MrV: Well firstly I think, as I say I am not a naturalist, but we have seen more wildlife on the Medway than anywhere else in much wilder parts of the country. That’s quite surprising but true. The countryside is, I suppose, not very remarkable, but from the river you are seeing it at its best and it is very pleasant. You don’t, by and large the river misses villages, it’s the other way around, the villages are set back from the river because of flooding of course, but the effect of this is that even though you are in a fairly heavily populated area you are going nearly all the time through country from Maidstone to Tonbridge and there’s very little coming down to the river by way of urbanisation. It’s just very nice. I read a little piece ago some time ago and I thought it was English and I would stick to that. Int: I was going to ask you what part you thought it played in the local landscape, how you see that? MrV: I think I have answered that haven’t I. Int: Yes you have talked about it. Do you think that the local use of the river was taken into account when they did the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir. MrV: I’m sure it was, in fact I’m sure it was. Int: Do you think it is important that should be taken into account? MrV: Oh yes of course. Int: How much, if at all, do you think that local people see the river as local property? MrV: I don’t think I can answer that, local property? Property is the wrong word. The river certainly has a local . Property is the wrong word. Property is something you can pick up and take away with you and sell to somebody else, whereas the river goes on. We have a great local interest, a keen local interest certainly. Let’s face it you know human nature as well as I do, 90% of people in the village couldn’t care less if the river ran dry tomorrow. But the other 10%, which is as many as you are going to get on any subject, would feel very strongly if anything very serious should happen to the river. Maybe I am a little cynical in my 90 and 10% but you know what I mean. Int: Yes.

MrV: I noticed how many people have any interest in what happens to the whole damn country and I get a bit cynical. Int: Of those who do feel involved, in what way do they feel involved? MrV: How do you get involved in something. Some people obviously have a personal involvement such as fishermen and people who have walked there a lot and so on. If they came and wanted to blast away those low hills up there and drive a new motorway or something through it, I would feel quite strongly about it, but it doesn’t mean or imply a local ownership sense of the hills or nor could I answer really precisely what I want from them, it would just be the spoiling of something. Int: Right. Do you recall when the works were done, do you recall whether there was any consultation with the local people? MrV: I don’t remember really. I have a vague idea that something came around. Int: To what extent do you feel that local people should be consulted and involved in decisions or things that happen to the river? MrV: I think one should have the opportunity to have a say, but I am sure we did have, but I can’t remember any details. I feel sure that there was some sort of information that went out and at the end of the day you cannot, there are limits to what you can do by popular opinion, you cannot really say well are we going to drive a concrete pile in here or 6 feet further along and have a vote on it can you? Somebody has to make a decision on precisely what is done. But yes there should be an opportunity, particularly if there’s going to be any major works. I suppose for example if it was decided to really make serious commercial use of the river and not just the little barges that you get up there now, but small ships, and they had to do a really major dredging, canalising operation and so forth, to do that without consulting the local population would be absolutely wrong obviously. But I don’t think every small job that has to be done to maintain the river in its present form needs a massive consultation exercise. Int: Right, would the works that were done at Branbridges and OakWeir come into that category or would you think they were.. MrV: Well I would have thought that, in as much as it involved footpaths which were regularly used and that sort of thing, I would have thought that it was right that there should be some notification and people being given an opportunity, but I don’t think a major exercise was necessary to call extensive public meetings, which people don’t go to anyway. Int: So can I ask you now a general question? What do you think a natural river would be like? MrV: I know what it would be like. Int: Do you? How does the Medway compare with what a natural river would be like?

MrV: You can get an idea actually in a few places still to this day. It would be running several channels, there would be a lot of swamp, lots of bits of woodland here and there. You wouldn’t be able to find the bank in places at all, as you get down to the mouth of the river it would probably be considerably wider as the Thames was widened before they built the Embankment. Int: I was going to ask you how natural do you think the Medway is? MrV: Well it isn’t of course, but then our countryside isn’t natural is it? We do not live in a natural habitat. Int: In what way is it not natural? MrV: Well if it was natural there would be a mixture of woodland and heath and that’s all. As soon as you start planting things it’s not natural is it? Int: Thinking of the Medway, in what ways is that not natural? MrV: They have made it navigable by constraining it’s banks and clearing the land. It has been made use of, just as the land has been made use of. Quite rightly too. Int: Yes I was going to ask you does it matter that it’s not natural? MrV: If we want everything natural then we should go and start the process by chucking ourselves collectively off Beachy Head, I mean seriously think about. Int: The fact that we are here. MrV: The fact that we are here living in anything remotely like the way we live means that fundamentally you are getting away from nature. Int: Would you see that there are any natural rivers in Britain? MrV: Yes there are I think millstreams and so on. I doubt if there are any totally natural rivers in their lower stretches there. Certainly none that have been used by navigation. Even when they are not used by navigation they are not usually completely natural because the farmer wants to make use of the land and he wants to make use of the river in favour of the land. He doesn’t want it flooding over his land when he is seeking to plough it and on the other hand it may be that he wants to make use of it for an irrigation purpose. Even a little stream is usually to some extent constrained. Int: Thinking about the works that were done to restore the banks at Oak Weir and Branbridges, do you think they made the river more or less natural, or what kind of impact do you think they had? MrV: I have no views on that either way. Int: Do you think that we can restore rivers to their natural state, ones that we have altered?

MrV: I think I know what you are getting at but the answer to your question is that I suppose we could but I don’t think it would be a very wise thing to do. What you are getting at is these schemes they have in some places of re-introducing meanders and that sort of thing. You can do that, of course you can, and it may well be a good idea sometimes. Int: Does that restore the river to its natural condition? MrV: Well check the map and I am sure there are many rivers in our country that runs through flat plain most of the way and in a totally naturally way, unconstrained by banks, it would not so much meander as diversify and have little channels here and there with bits of swamp and woodland of various kinds. It might be in a way very nice and very scenic but it’s not compatible with countryside that has been cleared for farming, let alone any use of the river for navigation. Yes there are some arguments in favour of re-introducing meanders, apart from the purely aesthetic point. I can’t remember what they are, is it simply a question of improving the irrigation effect of the river? Int: No it would be also that diverse channel form would create different kind of habitat so create a more diverse river habitat. MrV: Oh that’s an idea. Yes so obviously a river that bends just like a road bends is much more interesting than one that is dead straight. The River Medway of course does bend a lot without any encouragement. What you are doing is not strictly natural it’s artificial. Even if the meander was there in the year dot it doesn’t alter the fact that it’s gone now and what you are doing in re-introducing it is in itself an artifice. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn’t really a question of being more natural. Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think? MrV: Well yes of course we have, we needed to. We started taming them literally thousands of years ago. Int: So does it matter that we have tamed them? MrV: Well if you want to get rid of 90% of the population you can untame the rivers, seriously. If you are not prepared to do that then you need your rivers tamed just as you need your countryside tamed. Int: Right. MrV: 2000 years ago the majority of this countryside was not under a town or grazed, it was wild. It was very simple. Int: Well thank you that’s interesting. Talking again about restoration, the idea of restoring rivers, do you think that we have the scientific knowledge to do that? Do you think it is a scientific process?

MrV: I simply don’t know. Int: Thinking of the works that were done on the Medway at Oak Weir and Branbridges, these works, I don’t know whether you are aware, they used traditional techniques and natural materials. Was that something you were aware of or remember? MrV: Yes I think I do vaguely remember. Int: They used willow spiling and chestnut faggots which are natural materials to strengthen the banks. How scientific do you think that would be? MrV: I have no idea whether it’s scientific or not, but it sounds to me highly practical because it works doesn’t it? It has improved over many years but what the scientific basis is for it I am not qualified to say. Int: I won’t keep you much longer. MrV: I do have to go out, I think I told you on the ‘phone. Int: Really we have covered most of the areas I wanted to talk about unless there’s something else that you would like to add from your viewpoint on the River Medway and the village. MrV: I think I have made my main comments on the use of the river. No I don’t think there is anything in particular. On the whole, I’m not talking about these two projects specifically, but just in a general sense I think that the river on the whole is fairly well managed. Int: I was going to ask you whether you feel that those who are responsible for the river, whether you trust them to take care of the river? Do you have a sense of confidence in them? MrV: On the whole yes. Int: Have you had reason not to, has your confidence been knocked? MrV: No on not the whole I think they do a good job. Int: Are there any points of criticism or ways in which things could be improved? MrV: I think, well, I am thinking now not so much of the river itself but of the environment, which is not really the responsibility of the river management people, although I spoke so gaily about the river earlier and I still do, there are a few places where the same standard doesn’t apply and it is a bit of a mess. Near Branbridges is one of those areas. I am not saying that they should pull anything down just to make the river look pretty, but there are a number of places on the river where I think the immediate environment could be improved. I’m not talking about turning it into an artificial pump or anything like that, just getting rid of some of the excretion which you get all over the country everywhere. As I say we probably have less of them on the Medway than in most places.

That’s about all I think. Int: That’s in terms of disused buildings or dumping or what? MrV: Disused buildings, dumping of rubbish and farmland which is, well not farmland, but land which is neither one thing or the other, not proper farmland not proper heathland just brush. There are a few patches like that and they encourage dumping of rubbish. They are very local, but you probably can’t do very much about it to be honest. It’s the same principle if you walk along the hills or in the country miles from anywhere in a beautiful spot you come across half a dozen disused thrown away fridges and a couple of old mattresses scattered about the place. It’s difficult to understand but it happens. Int: Yes that’s a good point. MrV: I think the two towns that the river goes through Tonbridge and Maidstone have improved in the last few years, but they still don’t make as much use of the river as they might. That I think is a rather different subject altogether. Int: Yes, you are talking about the longer urban sections of the river. Well thank you very much for your time unless there’s anything else you want to add. MrV: No. Int: Thank you very much.

INTERVIEW MEDWAY 8 Int: So you have seen some changes to the river in your time? MrW: Well yes, it doesn’t change its course much. It used to flood much more than it does now. Years ago it used to flood right up to the house here. Int: Did it? MrW: Oh yes when we really had heavy downpours. I forget what year it was. A woman who used to live in the house opposite here had appendicitis and they had to take her in a boat to get to hospital. The ambulance was down the other side of Whitbread’s. Int: Really? MrW: I forget what year that was, it was one year when we had really bad floods and the village was cut off completely. That was one of the days I didn’t go to work. I think it was to do with the sluices which worked manually years ago, now they work automatically. Int: Right. Do you go down to the river much? MrW: Occasionally I have a walk along the river yes. Int: We are interested in the whole of the River Medway in this area, but we are interested particularly in the parts where they did bank restoration works in 1993/94. The bit near Brambridges. MrW: They did a bit down there yes. I did see that the other week and that has all grown up and you wouldn’t think they had done anything to the bank there. That’s just prior to it running underneath the road, just looking upstream on the left. Yes it’s interwoven with willow, stumps in the ground and then interwoven with willow. They are quite tall shrubs now. I don’t know how many years that was done? Int: About 1993/94 was the main work. MrW: Of course they are doing a big restoration on the lock now. Did you know they were doing that? Int: I knew they were doing work, but I don’t know exactly what they are doing. MrW: They are upgrading it I think, putting a fishery path in, something to do with the fish but it is costing £250,000. I have heard them when I have been in the garden they have been piling, driving sheet piles in, but what exactly they are doing I don’t know. They are upgrading it I do know and that’s supposed to last until January. Int: When they did the bit at Branbridges, they also did a bit a little bit further upstream at Oak

Weir. Do you know that bit? MrW: Where’s the road. Int: That’s the industrial estate, that’s the bit near Branbridges and that’s Oak Weir. MrW: That’s going towards Tonbridge. I don’t get up as far as that way not really. I am familiar with this piece here. Int: Right, before they did the work there, were you aware that they were going to do work there? MrW: No because the bridge, I suppose they did it again to protect the new bridge. It was closed for some months as it started to crack, the foundations started to give way and they had to rebuild it right from the river bed and put a new deck on it. I should imagine over the years when the water has been in flood has washed that bit of bank away. Again that’s probably to protect it again I suppose. Int: When they were doing it did you have any expectations of how it would be? Did you hear about how they were going to do it? MrW: No it was one of those things. I don’t know who did it actually. Would it be the River Authority or, not the environment people, or was it volunteers doing it? Int: The works were done by a consultant firm for the National Rivers Authority, so it was the National Rivers Authority that did it. How successful do you think that bit of restoration has been at Branbridges? MrW: I suppose it has been pretty successful really because I feel that the towpath would have been eroded more and washed away and this has arrested that and stopped it. Int: Any other ways in which it has been beneficial to local people, or beneficial in any other way? MrW: Only cloth the riverbank, there has been a bit of greenery in the summer, that’s about all, but not very nice from that side looking across the other side where the old Branbridges steelworks used to be. There’s a lot of that still there, although the buildings there have been upgraded and made to look a lot better, but further along where they used to do shot blasting that building is derelict. That doesn’t look much from the river that that isn’t anything to do with that of course. I don’t know of any other benefit. Int: So what do you see as the most important benefit that there was from the works there? MrW: I suppose the benefit of protecting the bridge I should imagine from further repairs or damaging what they have just put there as it were.

Int: When you heard about how they were doing the works with the willows, how did you feel about that? What did you feel about that? MrW: I have seen in on the television how they had done that before, and I suppose that’s better than using these gabions like they have used upstream further on the other weir, the wire baskets filled with rocks. That’s another method they use but I suppose this is a much greener thing I suppose but over the years I don’t know how long it will be, I should imagine if you wait long enough they will be massive trees I should imagine. They will probably be a hazard then and have to be cut down. I suppose it will probably be cheaper, but then I suppose it would cost quite a bit to do that with the labour, it’s quite intensive labour, not a very good job neither I should think in the mud and driving the stakes in and doing the weaving and what not. Int: On the whole how do you feel about that technique? MrW: Oh it’s good. I suppose that’s one of the old fashioned ways. Int: Traditional yes. MrW: Almost like laying a hedge like they used to lay hedges on the hedgerows. They used to half cut through the bramble or briar or whatever it was and bent it over and interwove it. It was one of the best hedges you could have. Int: Any other comments on those works and how people have reacted to them and the benefits from them? MrW: I don’t suppose half the village realised it was going on. It’s one of those things well the river flows by and as long as it keeps going nobody worries much I don’t suppose. Int: I was going to ask you about that, what part does the river play in the life of the local community would you say? MrW: I was along there the other day and there were a dozen people or more there fishing, but I suspect they are not locals they are probably, because a lot of the banks I think one of the London clubs has fishing rights, they used to have a raft race there and I don’t know whether they have that now every year. There was a raft race from that particular weir down to Yalding which used to create a bit of local interest on the day but I don’t think they do that now. Other than that I don’t know. I mean it makes a nice walk in the summer when they can afford to cut the vegetation back on the towpath, sometimes it gets a bit overgrown. I think they have been trying to get a complete walk from Maidstone to Tonbridge I think. Whether that’s successful I don’t know because some of the farmers at Teeson were against it. I don’t know whether you can go the complete length of the river from Maidstone to Tonbridge. Tonbridge and Yalding have a boat trip for their council members once a year up as far as the locks. They have a bit of a do I think, like sandwiches and a drink on a boat once a year. I don’t think there is anything else. Int: For the local community in the village, how important do you think the river is?

MrW: Well not very I shouldn’t think as long as it keeps within its banks as it were. That’s the only thing that worries people. There is the flood warning system which is in operation or would be put in operation, but we get one or two occasional amber warnings but nothing like we used to have. I can’t see that it does much else for the people in the village apart from the pleasure of walking along and fishing and so forth. Int: How about in your life? What part does the river play in your life or has it played a part because you have lived here for quite a time? MrW: Not all that much really. As I say it’s one of those things you know it’s there and providing it keeps within its banks . Int: Right. Well you have seen a bit of flooding? MrW: Yes it rises up where it actually starts to get quite a rev up and when there are heavy rains there you can reckon it takes about 24 hours if there is heavy rain before it got down to here. Because of the flood barrier up above Tonbridge they control that and hold it back and let it out gradually. Of course it’s not tidal here until you get down to Allington. As I say the worst instance we had was when it was up as far as here, was going around the other side of the village and cutting across what we call Martins Lane and a lot of that was due to the. It was in the autumn and a lot of bales of straw blocked up a lot of the culverts being washed off the fields. That was a lot of the trouble. As I say I had a day off that day but now it’s much better. The village used to, down by the shop, always used to be flooded. There used to be a lot more open ditches than there are now. All going down Old Road towards the main road, there used to be a terrific open ditch there with reeds in it. It always used to get filled with rubbish and it was an eyesore. I wouldn’t say shopping trolleys because they weren’t about then, but that sort of thing. Eventually they put a large pipe in and you would never know it was there now. Int: How important do you think the river is in the local landscape? MrW: Well I suppose it is important from the point of drainage to the area I suppose. Int: Any other way it forms part of the local landscape? MrW: Not really, there’s wildlife there. I have seen kingfishers along there along towards the other lock towards wagon horse bridge. I have seen kingfishers and so forth wildlife. I have seen a mink once, but that again was towards Tonbridge. I can’t think of anything else. Int: Do you think the local use of the river was taken into account when they did the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrW: The local ? Int: The use of the river that local people make of the river? MrW: Do I think they took that into account?

Int: Yes. MrW: I would hardly think so, not in these days. I think it was mainly protecting the bridge and keeping the river within its banks. They have obviously got to do repairs to it. When you go along that river from the road to the weir it takes some terrific turns and you can see when it is running full power how it erodes the banks away. They need the barge up there and cleaning the channel out because they do get a lot of pleasure boats up there. I suspect people come all the way from Strood and go all the way up to Tonbridge, I suppose that’s as far as they can go with boats. I suppose in years gone by there used to be barges go under Tonbridge, but I can only ever recall them coming up to Maidstone. They used to come up to Maidstone years ago with timber and they used to come up this side of Maidstone to get rock from the quarry. That’s all gone now of course. Int: How much, if at all, do you see that local residents see the river as local property, as their river? Do you think people feel that? MrW: I don’t think so no. I wouldn’t say so. They think there’s the Medway and there it is as it were. Int: How about yourself? MrW: Well the same way I think. It used to be more of a threat I would say when it was likely to flood. In fact we used to pay an extra drainage rate and it always used to make me wonder because we were more likely to get flooded but we had to pay an extra drainage rate. It applied half way up this road where they got a little bit higher they didn’t pay it. It was called an internal drainage rate. You had to pay your ordinary rates, it wouldn’t be that much, but I’m going back 20 odd years now, but you had to pay another £5 or £6 for what they called internal drainage rate. That was for them to clean the ditches out and so forth. No I would say that I view it in those days as more of a threat. Once it rained you always thought how much more are you going to get. Mind you in past years we have had it much drier. We have a shortage of rain now, plus the fact that they take a lot out now to fill Bilton Bridge. You know all about that don’t you? The pumping station. They fill the reservoir from Yalding. That’s quite interesting I think, the fact that they pump that water up from Yalding which must be 10 or 12 miles away. It’s got to go up over the hill to get there, but I understand they can only take water when there is a certain amount flowing because they have to allow a certain amount of water for navigation for the pleasure boats. I suppose that’s only been in operation this last 3 years or so. Int: On the whole, how involved do you think people are in the river here? MrW: Not much. There’s nobody working on the river. I think the parish council are mainly concerned to keep it a bit tidy. At one time they were asking for volunteers to clear up the riverbanks behind people that leave litter about. Whether there is anybody that does it I don’t know. You always see plenty of rubbish there, a lot of it is left by the fishermen I think, but they wouldn’t accept that probably but there is a lot of rubbish left about there. Other than that I don’t think there is much interest at all. I don’t know what other people think.

Int: Thinking about the bank restoration done at Branbridges and Oak Weir, were you aware of any consultation or any public involvement in that at the time. MrW: I have no doubt that the parish council were, but I heard nothing about it until I saw them actually doing it. I don’t know how long it took for them to actually do it. They were there for quite a time but I don’t think they were there continually. They probably had to lower the river down for them to do some of the work and then leave it for a bit. I don’t know. Int: Right. Do you think that local people should be involved or should be consulted when works are done on the river? MrW: I don’t think they would be very much interested to be quite honest. I mean they would certainly be more interested if all of a sudden a new railway was to come through this way, like it was once before. I think the thing is the river is there and it’s there. You can’t do much about it as it were. Int: Perhaps I could ask you a general question now about rivers? What do you think a natural river would be like? What is your idea of a natural river? MrW: Well, nice clean water and nice habitat around it and wildlife, such as there are in Scotland. We have just had a holiday in Scotland and there are lovely rivers in Scotland, lovely and clear and clean. This river is a lot cleaner now than it used to be. In Maidstone there used to be factories alongside the river there and they used to process peas and all the waste in the river used to be nearly as green as that stool now. That’s all long gone now but yes a nice clean river. Int: Any other things that you think distinguish a natural river? MrW: A natural river? Int: What was it about the Scottish rivers that you saw as making them natural? MrW: Well nice and clean and fast flowing. Of course most of those are on a rock bed. Here we are on clay which makes the Medway look much dirtier, whereas if you get into places like Hampshire and Wiltshire where the river is on chalk, there again they are nice clean rivers and streams. In fact you can virtually see fish swimming in the water. You never see a fish swim in here it wouldn’t be clear enough to see in. Int: How natural would you think the Medway is? MrW: Well it meanders through the lowest point and I should say it is very natural really. The course of it hasn’t been altered in any way that I am aware of. I should say it was very natural. Int: Any particular features that make it natural? MrW: Not particularly.

Int: When they did the works at Branbridges and Oak Weir, what affect did that have on the naturalness of the river? MrW: Well obviously is looked stark when they had finished it. You almost thought that it was useless and not going to work. But if you look at it now it looks a mass of young willow trees coming. I know willow grows almost anywhere that it’s wet. You used to be able to put a twig in the garden and that would grow. Now it has mellowed down and it looks a bit stark even now with all the leaves off, but in the summer when it was green it made quite a screen. I suppose almost the original stuff which was put in has probably almost rotted away now, with the old roots starting off the shrubs or trees. Int: Any other thoughts on how natural or otherwise those works look? MrW: No. Int: Ok. Some people think that we have tamed our rivers. What do you think? Do you think that we have tamed our rivers? MrW: Well we have this one as regards flooding as it were. Otherwise as I say over the years it’s very rare it comes over the banks now. When you go towards Maidstone by Teston there, the road follows along the river and you can see where it comes up over the banks but I would almost call them water meadows, where they just graze sheep and cattle, which does no harm at all. It’s flooded today and two days time when you go there it is all within the banks. I would say it has been very much tamed to what it was years ago. It was really a threat to East Peckham, Yalding, all very low lying from the aspect of flooding. Int: So you feel that the Medway has been tamed? MrW: Yes. Int: How do you feel about that? Do you think that’s a good thing or a bad thing? MrW: Oh yes that’s good. Int: How about other rivers, do you see them as tamed? MrW: I suppose so. They are not used so much as they used to be are they? Not for commercial use. They used to use it for barges up to Maidstone and up through Yalding but not now. That’s a bit like the railways they have had their heyday and that has gone. Int: Do you think that has had an impact on the river, apart from the boats not being there, has it affected it in other ways? MrW: I don’t think it has affected the river. It’s certainly a lot cleaner. Even the Thames they talk about the return of salmon. This doing of the weir here, there is a sign down on the Maidstone Road and I am not able to stop and read it in the car, but there is something about a fish ladder or

something to enable fish to get higher up the river, but I would have thought they would automatically have flown through the locks. Int: Thinking about the works that were being done using the willow at Branbridges and the chestnut faggots at Oak Weir, how scientific do you think those works were? Do you think there was a base of scientific knowledge that they used to do those works? MrW: Yes I reckon they must have done. I did wonder whether it was some community service. It all seemed to be young people, whether it was something to do with community service, but you say that somebody specialised in doing it. Int: Well conservation volunteers have been involved in various activities on the river, maintenance and that sort of thing, but the actual original works were done by the body the National Rivers Authority. There have been volunteers working on the river. MrW: Oh yes. I mean this footpath thing. They put up signs and repaired the riverbank and volunteer groups did it on a Sunday morning and things. I understand that but this I suppose is an old and proven method of repairing riverbanks. I must have been passed down or they gained the experience from other people on other rivers. Int: So did you have confidence in the works when they were doing them in that approach? MrW: Well it all looked a bit of a shambles when they were doing it. They didn’t look much more than sticks. I think they were 4 inch poles driven into the river and when you think about it it’s only for a short period as I see it. They are driven into the mud and interwoven with the twigs and it didn’t take long, and I think they did some filling behind it, but it didn’t take long for the silt to fill up behind and solidify and make it all in one lump as it were. Int: So on the whole do you trust the people who manage the river to take care of it? Do you have confidence in them? MrW: Oh yes. Int: Are there any ways you think the work could be improved? MrW: I suppose they have money constraints like everybody else these days. Int: Are there any improvements you would like to see? MrW: What to the river? Int: Yes. MrW: Well sometimes the vegetation overgrows the towpath. They have been along there this year but I know several other minor streams along the Medway where no attention has been given at all. There used to be gangs of men going along the riverbank cutting the grass away and the

brambles. Likewise as they used to do on the railway embankments. None of that is done now with manual labour, that’s all gone by now. I don’t think it affects the river much only when it gets high up and washes a bit of bank away and a bit of vegetation. That then passes down through the locks and it makes the river that bit wider and probably a little bit shallower, hence the dredger has to come. They keep a barge with a digger on it at Yalding, which is often up the river clearing out bits. They don’t take the material away it is generally off loaded onto the bank. In other words they dig it out and put it onto the bank. Very gravely, almost like ballast through there. It’s dark ballast. Int: Can I ask you a general question. As I was mentioning there a couple of schemes that we are looking at on rivers where they are doing more radical works, putting back meanders in the river. What do you think about restoring rivers to their natural state. Do you think that’s feasible or desirable? MrW: Well I mean they are at their natural state I suppose now. I don’t know whether the Medway could have changed its course much over the years, only made itself perhaps wider on the corners where it gradually washes away. Int: Where rivers have been straightened shall we say? MrW: Well a river is not like a roadway, in fact like it is at East Peckham with the bypass, it’s not all of a sudden that somebody says well we will cut the bends out there and dig a trench and let the water run that way. Int: There are some rivers that they have straightened or put them in a different course because it was more convenient and they wanted the water to flow more quickly and you can talk about or consider restoring them and putting them back on the course they used to go on. What do you think about that idea? MrW: Well I wouldn’t think much of it. Obviously when it was done in the first place it was probably done to improve the environment. We used to live at Hadlow, as I have said we have lived here for 32 years, but just prior to coming here the River Bourne which feeds into the Medway, the bridge there collapsed. The buses had to stop one side and unload the people and they had to walk over and get on the bus at the other side for weeks while they repaired it. That river was on a bend and they dug a trench here and constructed a new bridge over it and directed the water through it. They straightened that but I would say that was an improvement. I mean on our map there it certainly meanders quite a way through what they call the Medway valley. Int: Yes you are right. MrW: I can never see anybody saying well that’s a tidy bend let’s straighten it because no shipping as such only pleasure boating uses it. Perhaps on bigger rivers I don’t know. Int: Is there anything else you would like to add about the River Medway and East Peckham in relation to the River Medway. MrW: Not really, you have asked me everything.

Int: You obviously have an interest in the river because you know quite a bit about it. Have you had any connections working or other connections with it, or is that just while you have been living here? MrW: No, I often go for a walk along the river. More so since I retired, but I suppose it gives a lot of people pleasure with the boats. I am not interested in boats or swimming or anything. Int: Have you done fishing on it? MrW: No I have never been a fisherman, but as I say the last time I went on the river there were 10 or 12 lads there and some men sitting there all day fishing. It was nice and mild and probably they enjoy it. Whether they catch much I don’t know. It never seems to me that they catch much. Certainly the other way there’s a lot of water that is rented by London clubs and I think they pay quite a bit of money for it. Whether it is re-stocked I don’t know. You get the Beale water which is stocked with fish and people pay a lot of money to go for a day’s fishing on that. But you have to have a fishing licence on the Medway but I don’t know whether they re-stock it now. We haven’t had any pollution on it for a long time now. I think there was a little scare in Tonbridge 18 months ago. Somebody let a lot of waste into one of the inlets into the Medway. Int: Anything else you would like to add? MrW: No I don’t think so. Int: Well thank you very much for your very interesting views. You have obviously got a background knowledge of the river which other people don’t have. MrW: Are you going to see many people in the village? Int: Yes we are going to see quite a few people and get a different range of views and perspectives on the river. MrW: With the other rivers have you done work on those? Int: We have done a survey with a questionnaire and then we are going to talk to people. MrW: Why was the Medway chosen? Was it just a river? Tape finished.

MEDWAY 9 Int: Right. Do you recall the works that were done on the river at Branbridges, which is just by the bridge here. MrsX: Yes I think the bridge nearly collapsed at one stage, or there was a hefty crack and they did quite a lot of work obviously repairing the bridge, but after that more recently they have done a lot of work on the banking there. Int: That’s right, it’s the work on the bank that we have been focusing on. They also did some work further down. If we look at the map here this is where they did the work at Branbridges, this is East Peckham. They did some works down here at Oak Weir. MrsX: We have walked along part of that from the other end, but I don’t know if I came along that far. I know my husband walked along there when the school did a walk and he did say it was very nice along there and the work had been done. Was that done at the same time at Branbridges. I haven’t actually seen it myself but I have heard favourable reports. Certainly this end at Branbridges is great as long as the kids that fish there don’t trample about, although it says keep off, or rather it did initially. They still get in there and you see plastic bags of rubbish left behind. That’s the worse part really. Fishermen are supposed to be ecologically friendly some of the kids that do it they don’t bother and they leave their rubbish. Int: I was going to ask you how successful do you think the restoration scheme at Branbridges has been? MrsX: I think it has been. I last went along there in the summer and that bit along there does seem to be better. Int: In what sort of ways has it been successful? MrsX: Well it was just very overgrown with brambles, weeds, nettles and everything, and I shouldn’t think man or creature had any joy there really. Since they have done that woven fencing there and they have replanted and torn out all the brambles, it does seem to be much better. I don’t know if it attracts animals of some sort that maybe found it too dense before because of the brambles and things. Int: From the point of view of appearance? MrsX: Oh much better yes. Int: Any other ways in which it is better? MrsX: They have improved the pathway, I think before it was a bit dangerous at one stage but they have done a lot of drainage there so you haven’t got that awful cloggy mud so that’s better as well

for walking along. They have not made a concrete path or anything like that and it’s still a nice country walk along there. Int: The Branbridges bit where they did the work, are there any other advantages or benefits that you see from those works? MrsX: Well it’s generally better. I just think it looks a lot better along there. Not that I am an expert on wildlife or anything like that. It looks better, you don’t want it to be too neat and tidy so that it looks artificial but it certainly looks a lot better along there. Int: Right. MrsX: I would imagine that more wild flowers can grow there now than could before because there was too much brambly stuff there before which strangled everything. Int: Right. What do you think was the most important benefit that may have come out of those works for local people? MrsX: It’s just a more pleasant place to be. It must be better for the wildlife along there I would imagine. For the serious fishermen it is probably better. Several places along there they can get at more than they could before without damaging either themselves or the riverbank. I think there are a few places that are more easily accessible now. General improvement. Int: Thinking back to when they did the work, before they actually started, did you hear anything about it? Were you aware that it was going to be started? MrsX: Yes Int: Did you have any initial expectations of the project when you heard that they were going to do works there? MrsX: Well I thought anything would be an improvement really, especially on this side of the river which was a bit of a mess as well. Int: Did you have any expectations of what it would be like before it was done? MrsX: No I think there was a sketch shown to us about the improvements they would be doing and where they would be doing the improvements. Int: How did you see the sketch. MrsX: There might have been something in the library I can’t remember now. It might have been a leaflet. You do occasionally get local leaflets through. I don’t know whether they are from the NRA or whether they are local things that the NRA have been associated with. It might have been a KCC thing in connection with the NRA. Yes we were kept quite well informed I think. Int: When the works were done, how did what was done compare with your initial expectations?

MrsX: I found it quite interesting when they were doing it. There were little placards up explaining what they had done and why, so I thought it was done very well. Int: What did you think about the technique that they used. Did you have any views on that? MrsX: Initially when they started ripping everything out you thought oh crikey what are they going to do, but then you could see why and what they were trying to achieve. So yes it all came out in the wash as they say. Int: Why were you worried to start with? MrsX: Well you hear of things when they start ripping things apart on the riverbank and general countryside things. I thought they were going to make it worse than it was before I thought they may have done more damage than good. It might make it look smart but it might frighten away any wildlife and all the rest of it. As I say I am not a great expert on it, but from what I could see from the layman’s point of view it seems to have gone quite well. Int: Thinking about the river, what part does the river play in the life of the local community would you say? MrsX: A reasonable amount. They have a raft race every year that’s quite well supported. Int: Do they still do that? MrsX: Yes. Int: When does it take place? MrsX: Oh now you’re asking. I’m not sure. Spring I think. MrsX: I can’t remember whether there was one last year or not. Certainly there was one the previous year. I think when you walk along there you see quite a few people walking their dogs and wandering along, so it is quite busy along there sometimes. There are children along there with their bikes and kids fishing and grown ups fishing and some just generally being a pain but it is quite well used. Of course there are a lot of boats, especially at the weekends going up and down. Yalding have got their Sea Scouts and Tonbridge Canoe Club which come up here. but they come up from Tonbridge to Yalding all the way up. So it seems to be quite well used I think. Whether it’s all local people, it probably isn’t. It is probably people who come from elsewhere to here. In fact my husband was talking to some chap out there who was fishing and he had come down from London. He had a tent and was there for the weekend. He said it was the best spot he had found for fishing which isn’t the other end of the country or whatever it was within easy reach for him. Int: What part do you think the river plays in the local landscape? MrsX: I think it is quite important really, although people who are travelling through East Peckham

might not even realise it’s there. They go over the bridge and think water. Actually where the bridge is you look to the right and all you see is the car yard and it’s not very pretty or attractive until you have to walk along there to find that it does look nice. So if you see it from the road it doesn’t look all that special really. To us, the family, it is important. Int: In what way is it important? MrsX: I suppose because we live near it we tend to use it. My husband goes fishing with my son and we go for walks along there quite often. I like to be near water so I like it, some people probably aren’t bothered one way or another. There are probably a lot of local people who never go near it. Int: What do you like about water? MrsX: Relaxing and peaceful I think. Unless it’s the day after a storm and it’s raging along. Yes it’s de-stressing. We all need a bit of that. Int: Do you think that the local use that people make of the river was taken into account when they did the work at Branbridges and Oak Weir? MrsX: Yes I think so. I would imagine so yes because we were kept informed. Int: How much, if at all, do you think local people see the river as local property, as part of something that they are involved with? MrsX: Well the ones that do probably quite a lot, like we do, but the ones that never go near it not at all. It’s probably all or nothing really. Int: For yourselves, how important is the river? MrsX: I would say that it is quite important from a recreational point of view. Int: Those people that are involved, in what sort of ways do you think they are still involved with the river? MrsX: Again recreational mostly I would think. There’s obviously the fishing side of it for most people. The boating side, although again people probably come from further afield. Int: Right. Thinking about the restoration again. I think you mentioned a bit about this already, about consultation or information about it before it was done. Where you aware of the information? MrsX: Yes. Int: Do you feel that local people had the opportunity to participate in the work? MrsX: Yes they were asking for work parties at one stage. Oh no that might have been through

Keith’s NRA thing. You get letters periodically saying they were going to do clearance work in certain areas so they would ask for people to go out there. I don’t know if that was put out generally because it was part of the NRA. Int: To what extent do you feel that local people should be involved when there are works done on the river like the works at Branbridges or Oak Weir? MrsX: I think usually the local community, things like the Scouts and Guides would be quite happy to be involved to a certain extent. There are Adventure Scouts for the olders ones as well so I think it is a good thing. Int: How about other local people, do you think they should be involved? MrsX: It’s worth a try yes. I think they should have the opportunity. Int: Thinking about the consultation ways of involving people, do you think that they are ways that could be improved in consulting people and involving them in the river? MrsX: Possibly. I can’t quite remember who we got the information whether it was just through the things that the children belonged to or whether it was information available locally. I think it was probably both, but then you will probably find that some people didn’t even know that the work had been done. Have you found that? Int: Yes. MrsX: I thought so. There are some people that see a leaflet and sling it without even reading it. I suppose it is always better to give more information, but some people will pick up on it and some won’t. It’s nice to know what is going on especially being so local to the river. With the bypass that’s going on they have said now that they are building they are going to put an otter run or something to do with otters. That was before they started on it whether they have actually carried that through or not yet I don’t know. I don’t know if there are any otters actually in the area at the moment but there have been some seen on the Medway somewhere I think and they are hoping they will move down or up river, whichever way it is, and whatever is there will encourage them to breed. Int: That’s interesting, where did you get that information from? MrsX: That would have been when they were first starting to do the bypass. So that would probably have been something from KCC. Int: Did they leaflet you or did they put it in the paper or how did you get the information? MrsX: Some leaflets and we have had information. There has been quite a strong lobby for the bypass so we have had information and leaflets locally in the village. Where did I see this bit about the otters. I think that was at a residents meeting and the Site Manager was there and he was saying about the bridge over the river and what they were going to do and all the rest of it, and he

mentioned about this thing for the otters. Int: At the moment they are doing works up on the weir. Have you had any information about that? MrsX: Well they said they were going to replace part of it or put some new something or others in because it’s quite old. So I don’t know if that is actually happening now or if it’s about to happen shortly. Int: They have been banging away up there and pile driving some people have said so something is going on up there. MrsX: Oh do you mean up here this side or up the other side of Branbridges towards Little Mill coming this way? Int: Yes down there. MrsX: Oh yes maybe that’s what I can hear. We have been hearing all this banging noise and it sounded like it was coming from that way, but then we decided that it was this lot and it was echoing off the houses. When you get out onto the main road you can’t really hear it. Maybe that’s what it was. Int: I think they have been pile driving down by the sluice weir. Can I ask you a general question now. What do you think of as a natural river? What do you think a natural river is like? MrsX: A natural river really I suppose is one that hasn’t been got at. Hasn’t got lots of road running across it or running alongside of it, hasn’t been dug out and made deeper or shallower and had lots of pipes leading off it. Hasn’t got lots of weirs and things. Of course this has always been a working river. They used to take the timber or coal down to Chatham so it’s been got at for some years I should imagine. What it was like before any body got at it was probably a lot different to what it is now. Yes, really a natural river is one that hasn’t been got at too much. I suppose parts of this river are still natural, but some of the agricultural work I suppose goes right up to the banks so that must affect it with chemicals and all the rest of it. Int: How natural do you think this section of the Medway near here is? MrsX: Not all that natural really. As I say there are parts of it. The bit from Branbridges around to the weir, that’s reasonably natural still I think and the part going from here up to Yalding, but it is interspersed with bits that have been got at. It’s a mixture really. I wouldn’t say there is a long stretch. Possibly this bit up here further that you are talking about that’s more natural because there aren’t roads and houses and things so much around there. But this really I suppose up this end is more unnatural. Apart from the patch here where the factories are and we are going to have this low bridge across it, it’s quite a pleasant river to come along in a boat I would imagine. Int: What sort of features make it natural where it is natural?

MrsX: Well the trees and natural banking. Where that work has done, there were probably some people that thought they shouldn’t have done that. But now the end result was worth the aggravation. Int: Why do you think people might have thought they shouldn’t do it? MrsX: Well I suppose they thought that it was natural the way it was. Of course it wasn’t really. I don’t know what that is, there is an old water pump house or something that’s there opposite on the other side of the road to Branbridges. I suppose when that was up and working all that bit there was probably industrialised, so where all the brambles and things have taken over that wasn’t like that originally before the pump house was there or whatever that is. Really by taking those brambles out they have tried to get it back to what it was originally I would think. Int: Right. Thinking about natural rivers elsewhere, what sort of characteristics would a natural river have? MrsX: Quiet, plenty of wildlife, birds, plenty of fish obviously. No obvious signs of human habitation. Int: Do you know of any rivers like that? MrsX: Not really no. Again I suppose they are all a bit of a mixture like the Medway is. When you have got a long river like that you are sure to have a mixture. I shouldn’t think there are too many rivers that are natural all the way along really, unless they are up the highlands of Scotland or somewhere. Where humans go trouble follows really. It is going to affect the way the river exists, it must do. Int: Thinking about restoring rivers, what do you think about the idea of restoring rivers to a more natural condition? There are other schemes that we are looking at where they are putting back meanders where they used to go. What do you think of that idea? MrsX: I think that’s a good idea. Int: Do you think it is actually possible for us to restore a river to a natural condition? MrsX: It depends on the surrounding area I suppose. I think this river has stayed more or less in the area that it was. I don’t know for sure but we seem to have a lot of little gullies and things around here that go off. A lot of those now have been buried or channelled or whatever. We have got the link to Beale River off from Yalding. There was a lot of cafuffle about that but so far I don’t think it has made much difference, because this is quite a hefty river. Was it the Durrant that they had a lot of problems with? I don’t think we should get that problem with the Medway. I don’t know a lot about it but it seems to me that I wouldn’t think they would have that problem. Int: Thinking about the idea of restoring the river, does that seem to you to be a good idea? MrsX: Yes I would vote for that one.

Int: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers. Do you think that is the case? What do you think about that? MrsX: Well yes I suppose in some ways, what do they mean by putting in weirs and different things like that? Again having these water pipes that feed the reservoirs and things like that. I suppose in that way yes they have. Int: What do you think about that? Do you think it is a good thing or bad thing, necessary or not necessary? MrsX: The main flood barrier is up at Leigh but I think that weir also can affect the flooding around here. It used to flood a lot. We haven’t had any since we have been here, so from that point of view it’s a necessary evil I suppose. Yes, it’s not a terribly attractive thing when you walk up that end and see this great lumpy weir there, it is a bit of a blot on the landscape. Int: I was going to ask you whether controlling rivers makes them less natural? MrsX: Well yes it must do. Int: Does that matter do you think? MrsX: Well yes I suppose it does. It must do. But again the more building you get the more houses you build near rivers the more flood restricting things you are going to need I suppose. The ones that are there at the moment were there before we came here but I certainly wouldn’t want to see any more put in. I suppose if I had been here before they put them in, if you had lived in the area where it flooded you would have wanted them put in. It’s a bit like the bypass I suppose. We desperately need that bypass but it is a shame to see this great big road going across the back there. Again it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. It’s a necessary evil. Int: But you feel it’s necessary on the whole? MrsX: Yes to a certain extent. I think they should try not to build in a low area where the river is liable to flood and they should try not to build in those areas and say we will just put another flood barrier in. Int: Did the building in East Peckham take place after the works at Leigh were done? The village has expanded quite a lot recently. MrsX: Yes it has. This was all orchards originally. I’m not quite sure on that. It has expanded more since that Leigh flood barrier has been up I think. There were some houses along here. These were built mid 60’s. I’m not sure when that Leigh barrier went up. Int: Probably later than that. MrsX: I know a couple of people who have lived here since the houses were built and they have

said it used to flood regularly. Int: Thinking about the works that were done at Branbridges and Oak Weir and thinking about the techniques that they used there, how scientific do you think the techniques were? Do you think there was a base of scientific knowledge about those techniques? MrsX: Well I don’t really know. I would imagine they must have gone into it. They must have studied and done some research over several years before they got stuck in. Hopefully yes, it’s a mixture of science and tradition I would have thought. What they seem to have done there is quite traditional I think so a mixture of the two really. Int: To what extent do you think they knew what they were doing? Did you trust them to take care of the river? MrsX: Well yes, was that done by the NRA? Int: Yes. MrsX: Yes there have been rumblings in the press in the last couple of years that the NRA don’t know what they are doing on certain things that happened, I can’t remember off the top of my head what they were, but in general yes I think they knew what they were doing. Int: Here in the village there haven’t been rumblings. MrsX: Not that I am aware of. There’s always a rumbling of some sort, somebody always has to have a moan about something, but no great rumblings. Int: So generally, looking back to the works that were done, would you say that you approved of what was done? MrsX: Yes. Int: Any other points you would like to add about the way things could be done better on the river or things that you would like to see happen or improvements? MrsX: I wish there was some way to stop people chucking their litter away. That’s the worst aspect. If there was some way of policing it. Again that’s mostly a voluntary thing. A warden can’t be marching up and down all day long looking for people throwing away their litter, he has got better things to do. Also it’s getting the people to do it. But really that’s the worst aspect of it I think. The general upkeep of it seems to be quite reasonable I think. It was dredged probably when they were doing that work. They dredged the lock and they were pulling a motorbike out of the lock one day. In general I think the worst aspect is the human element which you are going to get anyway. Int: Right. Any other points you would like to make about the river?

MrsX: I think some of the rubbish that it put into the river by some of the factories could be stopped. Sometimes when you walk up there it is very messy from Branbridges whatever they are throwing in there. I don’t know so much know if it is ... I know when Arnolds was still there it would look quite unpleasant there at times. Whether they still have an outfall or anything from the people that are there now I don’t know. Of course Zeneca when it was ICI periodically would be bad. That was a bit horrible down there. That probably goes all the way along the river where there’s factories or whatever. I do think they should control factories and farmers with their slurry should also be controlled better. Int: Yes pollution control. Any other points? MrsX: No I don’t think so. I shall probably think of something after you have gone. Int: OK. Well thank you very much for talking to me. I have asked you all the things I wanted to. Int: Thank you very much.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 1 – 5TH NOVEMBER 1997 A lot of background noise by children so it is difficult to hear the conversation at times. INT: Have you been down to see the river at all since they did the project? MSX: Yes I have been down a few times. INT: So you have seen what they did? Can I start by asking you whether you think the project

has been successful or not, and in what way you may think it has or hasn’t been? MSX: It would be more successful if they had put benches there or maybe a bridge at each end,

because it is stupid walking all the way down one end to walk all the way back down again. So instead of putting just the one bridge in I think they should have put two in.

INT: There are plans to do the other one but I am not sure when. MSX: Probably in 5 years time! INT: Any other ways you think it is successful? MSX: I never really noticed any differece .... INT: Do you think it has made it better for people to go and visit? MSX: It will be yes but they need to take care down there. Just the other week I saw somebody

camping out. There should be more lights there and that would be better definitely. INT: Do you think it has made it any better for things like wildlife what they have done to the

riverbank? MSX: I don’t know. Kids are still going to be chasing them. The only way they will ever do that

is if they fence the river off altogether so they can’t get to the banks. INT: What would you say, do you see any benefits to you? MSX: It is a cleaner place to go to, to take the children. It’s a nice walk now. INT: Do the children go down? MSX: Oh yes they do. They like it down there. INT: Can you remember when you heard they were going to do something down there, did you

have any particular ideas or image of what it was going to be like? MSX: I didn’t know they were going to do anything there. INT: Really, you didn’t hear about it all.

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MSX: Not till the woman came last time. I hadn’t noticed any difference. INT: You didn’t know that they had done it? MSX: No I didn’t. I saw that they had planted a few shrubs in there but I didn’t know they had

done anything. INT: So you weren’t consulted at all or involved in anything like that? MSX: No I wasn’t. INT: Do you think you would have liked to have been told what was going on? MSX: Well yes then you could say yes that will work or that wouldn’t work. INT: Do you think local people should be involved? MSX: Well it is for us really, it’s no good saying to someone over at Skerne Park what do you

think to this when they are living over there and we are over here. INT: Yes, that’s right. How would you like to have been consulted about it. Would you have

gone to a meeting? MSX: Yes I would have done, or a letter so you could write your views down. INT: Do you feel that the river plays any particular part in your life? MSX: No I don’t think so. INT: What about the life of other people who live round here. MSX: Well people just take their dogs down there basically for walks. It’s nice to see the wildlife

and that. INT: Have you got any idea whether when they did the project they took into account local use of

the river, how people use it and things like that? MSX: No, I didn’t know people use it, it’s polluted. INT: Do you think it is still polluted? MSX: It always will be. People are always chucking stuff in it, they go down there with their

shopping trolleys and throw things in. There was a settee in it the other week. INT: Oh no really. MSX: Somebody had chucked a settee in the river. INT: Would you say that you saw the river as local property in a way, belonging to local people?

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MSX: No I don’t think so. INT: You don’t feel involved with the river in any way? Mrs F: No. INT: Do you think there’s anyone around here that might be? MSX: Only the dog walkers. INT: Do you have any real idea of what they wanted to achieve by doing the project? MSX: I don’t know I think they were just trying to tidy it up for people to walk through there.

People use it for short cuts, but I don’t know. INT: Have you seen what they have done, the new bends etc ...? MSX: I have been down there twice. They should have done it in concrete really instead of that

gravel stuff [referring to new footpath?], because that will wash away in the winter and they will have to do it all again.

INT: I think they have put concrete down there along quite a bit stretch of it. MSX: Have they? INT: I’m not sure when it was but it wasn’t that long ago, so it’s probably a while since you’ve

been down there. MSX: It might be alright once they have put the bridge in. INT: Do you think it will make you go down there any more or not? MSX: It will if you can get to the other side, because then you have got more choice to walk, quite

a few people use it. INT: One of the things they said they wanted to do was to try and make the river more natural, to

return it to the more natural type of river. If I were to say to you how would you describe a natural river, what would you say?

MSX: I’m not sure. Just to let it go the way it wanted to go because that is what natural does. It

makes it go on paths as it goes along. Let it flow naturally and then maybe in time the fish will go there.

INT: What would you think of seeing around or in the river, anything in particular, or would it be

the shape of the river? MSX: I think it would be the shape of the way it will go. If it was natural it would make its own

path.

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INT: What about any trees or vegetation or anything? MSX: Well yes they could put trees in and then it would stop people chucking stuff in it and

polluting it. It is pretty dangerous down there if you were to slip into the river. INT: Do you think the people that did the project would have a different idea of what a natural

river would be like or not? MSX: Probably. INT: Do you think these days it is feasible to talk about returning a river like that to a natural

state or not? MSX: I don’t think they will be able too. There are too many vandals. I don’t think it matters

what they do to it, it is going to get vandalised. The generation that’s coming up now don’t care, they just don’t give a damn about other people’s property basically no matter what they do to it.

INT: Would you say it is a good idea generally what they were trying to do? MSX: It was a good idea, they have certainly cleaned it up. As I say it would be nice in the

summer, it would be more pleasant to walk along and take the kids. INT: How natural would you say, if you can remember before they did the project, how natural

would you say the river looked before they did it? MSX: I think it looked natural. The only thing that was wrong with it was that it was overgrown.

I suppose that is what natural rivers are like. INT: Do you think it looks any more natural since it has been done? MSX: It looks better and cleaner, more presentable. INT: Do you think it looks more like a natural river now or not? MSX: I’m not sure. INT: Are there any other rivers around here that you could compare that one with? MSX: There’s the Tees, but that is like tidal that one, no there isn’t really. INT: Do you think when people say that we have controlled and tamed most of the rivers in our

country, would you say you agreed with that? MSX: Well I would actually. INT: Do you think it matters that we have done that?

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MSX: No. INT: Do you think that it needs to be done? MSX: Yes, it’s a lot safer. INT: In what respect? MSX: Well at least that way it’s not going to eat away at the earth, they are going to be able to

control it, so it’s not going to get out of control. INT: Do you think that controlling a river like that makes it more or less natural? MSX: It makes it less natural, but on the other hand for nature and if it is not natural it is no good

for the nature animals. INT: But it’s better in other respects? MSX: Yes, safer for the kids and stuff like that. INT: Do you think the project is scientific in any way? MSX: Yes, they are trying to experiment different ways they can do it. I suppose if it works out

they will do other ones. INT: Would you have any idea of what type of scientific knowledge would be needed to do a

project like that? MSX: Oh I don’t know. INT: So you have got no idea really? MSX: No. INT: How much do you think that the people who have done the project know what they are

doing and know how to restore rivers? MSX: I think it is probably just a group of men sat around a table saying we will do this and we

will do that. I don’t suppose any of them live around here. I think they should have consulted people that do live around here.

INT: They did have quite a lot of publicity, leaflets etc.. MSX: I never got one. I didn’t know about it. INT: There was an exhibition in the library, they had leaflets delivered and public meetings, but I

think they targeted people a bit nearer. MSX: Maybe yes.

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INT: Would you say that you trusted these people to take care of the river,that they know what

they are doing? MSX: Well yes. INT: Do you think that the general idea of what they are trying to do is a good one or a

reasonable one? MSX: Well it is making it attractive up there. INT: Do you mean to visit? MSX: Yes. INT: Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing? MSX: It’s quite good really, the way they are doing the town they are getting it xxxxx and back on

the map so that people want to come and look at the area. INT: Do you think what they have done has helped nature conservation in any way? MSX: There is a nature reserve there. Compared to the one further up near xxxx that one’s

nothing. The one up by xxxx has swans and things like that, and you should be able to feed them down there as well.

INT: OK I think that’s more or less what I wanted to ask you.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 10 – 12TH JANUARY 1998 INT: I don’t know if you remember much since last time what the project was about and what the

questions were about, but I have just got a few things I really wanted to ask you about. If I remember from your first interview you don’t go to the river very much, is that right?

MrX: No. INT: Do you ever go down there? MrX: Not now no, I used to when I was a kid but not now. I have moved away now. INT: You are a bit further out. Have you seen what they have done down there? MrX: Yes I was out shopping on Saturday and I came back around that way, we were just looking

at what had actually been done. INT: So you have got some idea of what happened. Good. What I wanted to start with really is

presumably you can remember what it was like before they did the project down there and you have seen what it is like now, do you think that the project has been successful in trying to restore the river? If you do, or if you don’t why do you think that?

MrX: I think it has made it look nicer down there. INT: Any particular way you think it looks nicer? MrX: Well they have cleaned all the sides up before it was just weeds, now they have put a path

either side and it has made it easier for people to walk along. INT: Do you think it has been a success in any other ways? I am thinking about maybe giving

people more opportunity to do things down there? MrX: Yes there is more opportunity to actually go for a walk down there when it is wet at well,

because before it used to be like a track and was all boggy. INT: Do you think it has been a success as far as wildlife is concerned? MrX: Yes we saw some geese down there on Saturday and that’s the first time I have ever seen

anything like that there. I have seen the odd duck but nothing like what was down there on Saturday.

INT: Out of those reasons why you think it has been successful, which would you say perhaps, for

you anyway, would be the most important thing? MrX: Tidying it and making it look better. INT: Do you think there is any way that it hasn’t been a success at all? MrX: It still floods and I think they could have tried to make less flooding. It doesn’t flood as bad

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as it used to but it flooded over Christmas there. INT: How far up did it go? MrX: I’m not sure really but I know it came over. INT: It looked a bit high today when I came past it. Do you think other people might think it’s

been successful in different ways? MrX: Well I would think that people who live close to it probably do. INT: Any idea why you say they might think it has been more successful? MrX: Like I say it has been tidied up and it’s more pleasing to the eye for them to look at rather

than looking out your window and seeing all that rubbish. Now you can look out and it looks quite nice.

INT: Would you say that you personally get any particular benefits from what has been done

there? MrX: Not me personally no. INT: What would you think then are the most important benefits for other people, people that do

use it? MrX: The path they have put down, it makes it a lot easier to walk along. INT: Can you remember when you heard they were going to do something down there, did you

have any particular idea or particular expectations about what it was going to be like when it was finished?

MrX: No not really. I just thought they were cleaning the side up. They have done it before

where they just dredged all the sides and taken all the weed up. I thought that's what they were doing again.

INT: So it doesn’t look as if it compares with what your expectations were because you didn’t

particularly have any in the first place. Does it look better or worse than you thought it might?

MrX: It looks nicer. Once the weather brightens up I probably will go down and have a proper

look, but I’m not going down while it’s cold. INT: I don’t blame you. You said you used to go down there when you were younger, and you

don’t go down now. Would you say that the river doesn’t play any part in your life any more particularly?

MrX: Not really no. INT: Do you think it plays an important role in the life of the local community generally around

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the area? MrX: Not as much as it used to back in the old days I would have thought. INT: Why do you think it might have been more important in the old days? MrX: Well they used to use it a lot, I’m going back a long way now, but they used it a lot in the

town but they diverted it. INT: What for industry and things? MrX: Yes. INT: Do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape? MrX: Yes it runs straight through the town and the estate itself. INT: Do you think that when they were designing the project down there, do you think they took

into account the way people used the river when they were designing it? MrX: I think they were trying to make it more interesting and more pleasing to the eye. They have

actually changed the flow of the river itself and I think that was what they were trying to do. INT: Do you think they thought about the way people use it and why people use it and tried to

accommodate those things? You mentioned the footpath earlier. MrX: Yes there’s the footpath and we were told there was also going to be a bridge but I don’t

know when that’s going in. INT: As far as I know there were problems with the funding but it’s going ahead later this year, in

the summer I think. They didn’t get as much money as they wanted to it will be a cheaper bridge than they had planned originally. Do you think when people are designing projects like that they should take into account local people and local use?

MrX: Yes because at the end of the day they design it but they don’t have to look at it day in and

day out. INT: Do you think people in the area think of it as being their river if you like? MrX: No I don’t know. A lot of people distinguish the town with the river. INT: But you wouldn’t look at it as being like that, local property? MrX: No. INT: Do you feel involved, or have you felt involved in any way with the river or the project that

has gone on there? MrX: No.

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INT: Do you think other people may have become more involved with it? MrX: Probably those that live closer. INT: You weren’t involved in the consultation were you? MrX: No. INT: But you were interviewed last time? MrX: Yes last year some time. INT: I think it was about a year ago. Would you have liked to have been more involved and

consulted about what was going on? MrX: No not really. There was a board down on the bottom end where all the plans were telling

you what they were doing. INT: Did you look at that at all? MrX: No, just from hearsay. INT: Do you know much about what happened with consultation and how local people could have

been involved? MrX: No. INT: Do you think it’s important to talk to local people about this sort of thing and ask them what

they think? MrX: Yes especially the people that live close to it. You want to know what they are going to do

in front of your house. INT: So you couldn’t really say whether you were satisfied with the consultation or not? MrX: I don’t think it really affected us. We don’t have to look at the river it’s just handy for us if

we want to go for a walk or something. INT: You don’t know if it could have been improved in any way? MrX: No. INT: The group of people that did the project were called the River Restoration Project, I don’t

know if you have heard of them? One of the things they wanted to do was to restore the river to a more natural condition. If I were to say to you how would you describe a natural river, what would you say to me?

MrX: Well it just flows, it has got natural bends in it. It hasn’t had the bends taken away to make

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it flow quicker. INT: Anything else you can think of? MrX: No not really. INT: Would you describe a natural river as having any vegetation or that sort of thing? MrX: Yes. INT: Any idea what sort of thing could be found? MrX: Just the reeds and things like that down there. There used to be some down there. INT: I think they have planted a few now. Do you think that the people that did the project would

have perhaps a different view or a similar type of view of what a natural river would be like? MrX: I don’t know. Everybody has their own views and opinions. As I say they have put the

bends back into the river. INT: How natural do you think the river looked before they did the project? MrX: It didn’t, it just looked a mess. INT: Would you say it looks more natural now then? MrX: Yes it does. INT: Why would you say it looks more natural now? MrX: Because it’s tidier and cleaner. You are getting the wildlife back into the river. Before all

you used to find was a bike or something. INT: Do you think it looks natural compared to any other rivers that you may visit? I don’t know

if there are many other rivers around here that you might go to. MrX: I would say it does. INT: Do you think it’s feasible or possible today to talk about restoring a river like this one to a

natural state? MrX: If it’s not going to cost a lot of money I can see it being worthwhile, but if it’s going to cost

too much I don’t think it is really worth it. It has got to benefit somebody. INT: Do you think it would be technically possible to restore a river to a natural state? MrX: They could make it more pleasing to the eye and more accessible. INT: Can you think of any obstacles that might cause problems in trying to put a river back to a

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more natural condition? MrX: It would depend on whether industry uses it, if they use the flow of the river to actually keep

things going you can’t really slow it down. INT: That’s true yes. Do you think that the people that did the restoration project, do you think it

was a good idea what they were trying to do in restoring the river down there? MrX: Yes. INT: Would you say you were pleased with what they have done? MrX: Yes like I say it looks very nice, it looks a lot better than it has been for a long time down

there. INT: If we talk about rivers being controlled and managed by people, some people say we have

tamed rivers, do you think that is the case? MrX: That one is yes. INT: Do you think many rivers have been managed like that one? MrX: Not many round here. INT: Do you think it matters if we control rivers like that? MrX: Not really no. INT: You don’t think it’s necessary? MrX: Sometimes it’s impossible. INT: Do you think that by controlling a river like this one, do you think it makes it more or less

natural by managing rivers and controlling them? MrX: I don’t think it has made it any less natural. I think it has made it more natural to what it was

before. INT: Do you think that even if a river is managed it can still look natural? MrX: Yes if they do it the right way like they have done down there. INT: Do you think that the project was a scientific project in any way? MrX: I don’t know. Probably somehow but I can’t see where it would be. INT: What sort of knowledge do you think would be needed to do a project like that, have you got

any idea?

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MrX: Well you have got to know the flow of the river, how it actually flows and what it is like before you start messing about with it.

INT: Anything else you can think of that you might need to know about? MrX: I don’t think so. INT: How much do you think the people that did the project know how to restore rivers? MrX: I think they know what they are talking about, like I say they have done a good job. It has

never been a quick flowing river anyway, so it would have been easier to do. INT: Do you think that the restoration people had the right type of knowledge to do that job? MrX: Yes. INT: Would you say that you trusted them to know what they were doing to take care of the river? MrX: Yes. INT: Have you got any idea of what else might need to be investigated or learnt about restoring

rivers at all. MrX: Well probably what wildlife is actually there. INT: That goes back to what I asked before about what sort of knowledge. I suppose you

perhaps need to know something about the ecology do you think? MrX: Yes. INT: Well I think that’s about it actually. Anything else you would like to say about the project. MrX: The only thing we were worried about was the bridge. We knew there was going to be a

bridge put over because that would make it easier to walk all the way around. INT: Do you think you might use it more in the summer if the bridge was there? MrX: Yes definitely. INT: OK. Do you think the footpath has made a big difference? MrX: Yes I think it has made a big difference. INT: Right I think that’s about it. Thank you very much for your time. Do you know of many

people that do go down to the river at all? MrX: Not now no.

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END OF TAPE

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 11 – 12th JANUARY 1998 MsX: I am talking about a long time ago when the river was entirely different. INT: How was it then? MsX: Well we would splash in it. The position of the Five Arches Bridge as a child we could

splash in it. On the side of the railway we … because then it was steam, there were all the clinkers, the ash and coke and it all came down and we used to have these tin sheets and we used to come down them as a sledge. At the bottom, which is like where the Five Arches come down, was a type of bog, and if you were too much on it you ended up in the bog. Around here it’s Springwell, or used to be Springwell. When it was Springwell and it was the rainy season, parts down here used to flood and it used to send it all down.

INT: I heard it used to be very boggy around there. MsX: Yes it was very marshy and very boggy. I’m going back, well more or less when I was

between 5 and 12 years old or something like that, so I’m going back in the 40’s. INT: Was the river straightened then along there. MsX: We didn’t wander much along the river. I lived in xxxxxx Road on xxxxx, and when we

used to come down that was the part of the river we used to touch. I had an auntie over here which if you wanted to come across you came round by the path and if Springwell was flooded you couldn’t get over you had to come round by the road. As far as I know the……now it’s deep like that at Five Arches, where I am talking about the lads used to swing along the top and drop into the river in the middle. We used to use it as a swimming pool and a paddling pool, but I am going back a long time. He was brought up with river and country and things like that, I wasn’t I’m the townie.

INT: Yes so am I I’m afraid. What I am doing really is just following on from the last time and it

won’t take as long as the last time hopefully, but there’s just a few specific things which we asked people about before and we either want to ask them just a few more questions about it or just a few new ones. So do you go down there very much now to the river?

MrX: Since the bad weather started we don’t. MsX: Not as much in the bad weather. The most I do is, see in this particular area we are at we

have got the choice of two buses, because now being a pensioner I don’t take the car out because I have got a pass. If I take the car in I have either got to pay for it or park on the outskirts and walk in where the bus gets me direct. The bus out here goes round and up and it takes 20 minutes to come back onto the main road because it does a circle.

INT: What number is that? MsX: Number 21. It comes to the end, goes down the road, cuts along, goes over xxxxx then

round back again around xxxxx and up via xxxx and right round xxxxx and it takes nearly 15 minutes because of the stoppages and it’s a terminal. So it does wait for a period of time outside xxxxxx, so it roughly takes me about 20 minutes to go from here round to where I

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started off. The other one if I go to the top that does a circle the other way, number 20, and that comes from the town goes around the same way but the opposite way, comes up xxxxx and cuts up the top. That way only takes me 10 minutes. If I miss that I walk down and go over the bridge so then I do go back, and by that way getting onto the main road the 21’s coming and the 20’s coming but they have all gone a certain way round if you know what I mean and I can catch one or the other.

INT: That’s the one I got today, the number 20 from the town. I got off at the bridge. MsX: Your 20 would have put you off at INT: Literally near the footbridge. MsX: Yes but you could have gone up to the church. It depends on what kind of whether it is. If

it’s blowing a gale you will be blown away down there. If it’s a nice day it’s brilliant to walk it. It is a nice walk.

MrX: Exposed in the winter. MsX: Very exposed in the winter. We have a tendency to walk most nights, if it’s bad then its

dark and it’s muddy this side of the river. I thought actually that was what part of the money was for to be honest, to put footpaths both sides not just one side. There’s more people use this side.

MrX: The other side is a road to nowhere. Well we were of the understanding that in July of this

year they were going to put another footbridge in there. INT: Yes that’s right they were. MrX: Something has gone wrong. Not only that but they started building those footpaths and they

left 10 foot at that side to the bridge and 6 foot at this side up to the bridge. INT: I rang up and asked about that the other day and they are going to finish that off and put the

path right up to the footbridge. MrX: What a performance. It’s like …. MsX: A lot of people walk this side of it because you can get from Haughton to North Road or

Albert Hill. MrX: That’s a no road that. MsX: It’s a no road to nothing. It was wasted until they put the bridge in. MrX: They should have put this side in first, then people would have used it and could have gone

somewhere. Now it’s that side you have got to walk down turn around and come back again.

MsX: There’s a little tale actually from last year when we were down there. We walked this side

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because we knew that side we couldn’t get over unless we actually came back. It was one of his workmates I happened to say to just look at that person there crossing the river, and he said there’s nobody there. He had sunglasses on he was with his family, his wife and child, and he had jeans on and he was in the river. He had walked back that and realised he would have to walk all the way back so he cut over the river. There are parts like that. His wife had to walk all the way back because she hadn’t realised it wasn’t finished.

INT: As far as I know they were waiting for money for that bridge from the lottery or something

and they didn’t get it, so they have now decided to put a cheaper bridge in. MrX: I said this from the beginning. They go for this fancy bridge, the first thing that is going to

happen to that bridge is that they are going start painting on it, scratching it and doing all sorts. All people want it something to get from one side of the river to the other. They are not bothered what it looks like. As long as it is safe to walk across.

MsX: So I was just going to say ????? MrX: ????? said can you build us a bridge ... MsX: Cleveland Bridge and engineer and he has been there for years???? MrX: ???? one cut up to do the cross girders, put some ???? plates on and put some angles in and

they could have had one made. MsX: Not only that it would have been a landmark for Darlington the Cleveland Bridge. MrX: They wanted a fancy bridge, they went and seen somebody and it was obvious if you want a

fancy bridge you are going to pay the money for it. All you want is two girders going across with the cross girders to take the decking and a handle for people to walk across and so that the kids cannot fall over.

MsX: This one’s that’s across here. The times that has been mended. The times. Can you

imagine they would have had a field day. MrX: That one is mostly concrete so it’s going to dilapidate anyway. By the time they get that one

build they will want this one doing. INT: I think they said they weren’t doing it until the summer now. MrX: But when I saw the design for that bridge I thought bloody hell you would think they are

doing a ….. MsX: See you can’t use somebody????? MrX: ???? you don’t even need ???? on these bridges it is just a walkway with a continuation of the

footpath. MsX: The Humber bridge. All the main bridges in England ...

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MrX: When I saw the plans for that I thought bloody hell they are going over the top with everybody’s money, wasting it. People only want to get from a to b. They are not looking at the bridge. The kids will make sure that the bridge doesn’t stay anything like nice, so you pay all that money for them to spray paint the walls. Why don’t they just make it a simple, easy, nice looking bridge.

MsX: This one was based on the Sing Mar, the Hong Kong one. The airport the one that’s in Hong

Kong, and the Thames Barrier. All these to our way of thinking if maybe you had approached somewhere local like that. A young apprentice would have had a field day doing it for probably pennies in comparison.

MrX: We had a bloke walking around there and I wouldn’t pay him tuppence and he was supposed

to be a bloody artist and he is welding lumps of scrap metal together and he is calling it bloody art and we are sticking it on the bloody wall outside the works.

MsX: Have you ever passed it? INT: No. MrX: They would have been better off to give a young kid a job to make ????? ... all you see when

you walk past is lumps of scrap metal welded together. I don’t care.. ... The river’s nice now in the summer.

INT: I was going to ask you actually whether you think the project as a whole has been successful,

and why might think that? MsX: Well until it’s finished you can’t really answer that can you? You have got good things and

you have got bad things. One of the bad things is not finishing it off. MrX: When it started out everybody thought brilliant. You always have a mess before it, all we

could see that there was a good field down there and they hacked it all up. MsX: Mind it isn’t looking so bad now. MrX: Oh it’s starting to look good. MsX: There were two lovely fields. One on this side and one on that. It was absolutely beautiful

and they piled all their gear and now we have got all the rough grass. Over there was beautiful and now it’s like a valley.

MrX: They have put a gravel path along there now. MsX: Yes it’s like a soak away I think. INT: Oh I know yes, they call it Keepsafe. Mrs S: Yes it’s like rows of ... MrX: ... It goes over to Albert Hill.

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INT: Is that the Keepsafe area? MsX: Yes it will probably be. I mean there’s been swans down there in that reach. MrX: I though there were fish coming back in but I don’t know since ... MsX: Well the weather’s been…. See you just need a bit of rain and it’s up to the top. INT: I notice there’s lot of water out……. MrX: Down the bottom here, just as you get to the end of this road as you go along over by that

field, that field holds water and every winter it … well that was the lead up to the Springwell, it has always held water. One year they were even using canoes on it before they did this.

MsX: We have been here x years and one particular winter there’s a house down there, the first

house you come to after you get over the road and go down, the water there was up to the first level, and all you could see was just sheer water. They did something, they put the sides further up, I don’t know whether they did anything with the drainage or not?

MrX: No they didn’t do anything with the drainage they just cut it back more steeply. MsX: I did do a lot of good. MrX: They flattened it out so it could swell out both ways instead of all getting back up. MsX: That was it through all the rain. It hasn’t come up from the river it’s just like a hollow path. MrX: There’s no drainage at all there. MsX: If you walk on that you do sink on it. MrX: That’s boggy, just like over by the Five Arch once it gets like that. MsX: Certain parts of it is. But down here you get a dry bit and you keep turning. INT: You think it is too soon to tell whether it has been successful or not? MrX: Since they have put the footpaths in. They have only got it up to a certain stage down by the

river and the fields and all that, they got that far field put back to where they wanted it to be. I don’t know if they are going to put anything else there or not.

MsX: I don’t think they are . MrX: They built the footpaths and since they’ve done that it has just stopped. MsX: It has just come to a halt. So really speaking I was disappointed. Knowing that they have

put the path that side and like we say it is going nowhere. If you go down this side you are covered in mud. To me that would have been more important to put the path this side and

6

then put the bridge across than how they did it because there’s not as many people walk on that side because there’s nowhere to go. On that side you come to the Five Arch Bridge and you’ve finished. You have got to come back again. But on this side people go down this way with their dogs or they go down this way cutting through or down this way for a walk. They can walk from this side over to Morrisons [supermarket] and back, but it’s a nasty walk because there’s no path.

MrX: On this side you can do a circle. You can go from here to Albert Hill, come up at Haughton

Road and then come back down. MsX: Or you can come back down that side if you cut down that valley. MrX: On that side you know damn well when you get to the end you are going to have to turn

around and come back. MsX: Really speaking in my opinion the people that use that side is a few people with dogs or

people going to the boozers and clubs or things like that. MrX: Cutting up the bank on the field. That tree when you get to the top you can come out and

that's the Albert Hill club. A lot of people come out from Wellbeck and these others, they come down here and across the bridge up there and up the path and straight up to the Albert Hill club. It’s a short cut for them.

MsX: That is just a questionmark of a few people in comparison to those who have their dogs and

cut this side. MrX: I think the other side it is mostly people with the dogs that use it. INT: Do you think that the new meanders they have put in ….. MrX: Oh I think they have worked yes. Actually the river itself I think is not bad. We are still

waiting for the grass that they have put in and the reeds on this side to get fully grown. When they first put it in I thought bloody hell .

MsX: Some of those meanders really speaking when you get a lot of bad weather and a lot of floods

and that it does bring a lot of debris down and those meanders do hold it. Before it used to go downtown. I have noticed at times the ducks and swans and everything else trying to swim along ??????

MrX: The wildlife seems to be gradually returning. We have got the swans coming back in now

and the geese. INT: There are a whole load of geese there today. MrX: I think they are from the South Park. The South Park has a load of geese in and some of

them may be around here looking for ????? I think the South Park geese are over populated. The path around there is terrible so I think some of them may be coming over here.

MsX: That part used to be beautiful at one time. As kids we used to go down there roller skating.

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There was a lovely roller skating area and boating lake, there was a bandstand in the middle and they used to play the music. There was a learners path and from there you could go into another section that had little valleys with goldfish. They have all dried up and look horrible. There was a fountain called Peasey’s Fountain. All the tennis courts have gone. It was a nice park.

MrX: We saw all that years ago but now they come and vandalise it. So when we saw them

putting the path in we thought well they are starting on that side they will be working down and go down this side. Well they came up here I thought they would be coming back down but they have just stopped.

MsX: Somebody did tell me that they were asking more money for the bridge. If it’s true or not .... MrX: It’s fluctuating though. If you don’t get it straight away then it is going to go up. You

always finds your costs go up from the first quote. INT: What would you say has been the most important thing for you then about the project? The

most successful thing about it? MsX: Well I must admit I like to see all the ducks and that. I like to see all the animals. MrX: What it was, a walk by itself is uneventful in one sense until you see something happening

and you see wildlife and it puts another aspect to it. MsX: Like I say there’s no path there so you don’t go down. To be honest, today I probably would

have walked along it, there would have been no path this side. Nobody’s going to walk around that side to walk all the way back.

MrX: Actually what they have done they have done on the wrong side. MsX: In the winter you cut it off, but if there was somewhere to walk, a decent place to walk. You

do get it just this side of the Five Arch Bridge. They have put some kind of black tar down in comparison to concrete.

MrX: Even that’s not as good as the concrete. MsX: No that’s what I’m saying. They do have a little bit don’t they near where the Five Arches

Bridge is. MrX: On this side of the river you could get a good walk if they had gone about it the right way,

practically into town. MsX: He’s always said that. MrX: Under the Five Arch, underneath the bridge going up to Albert Road there where the

gasworks used to be. MsX: But you see that’s private land now.

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MrX: They could even come up into Valley Street. MsX: Yes it would have been a nice idea that. MrX: I mean from the town end it’s nice coming through the town….. MsX: Then you hit Albert Road and then you are cut out for a while. MrX: No Valley Street, once you hit Valley Street then it starts deteriorating again until you hit

Albert Hill. Between Valley Street and Albert Hill nobody know’s what’s happening there. It is just lost.

MsX: I think it was the gasworks land actually and I think that’s why it was lost. The bridge is on

the £5 note you know. INT: Yes the Skerne Bridge. MsX: No I don’t think it is called the Skerne Bridge, it’s the one where Robert Louis Stevenson had

the engine going across it. I don’t think that’s called the Skerne Bridge. It’s on the £5 note anyway where he’s walking in front of it. Albert Road Bridge is here with the main road there. You have got to stand on there to look at the bridge. I have noticed they are putting some bits and pieces underneath it, which they haven’t done yet because they only did that late this year. But if you could go past that and get yourself out at Valley Street and then from the town if you follow it and right down ...

MrX: ... that river goes right into town ... INT: They are thinking of trying to do that. MsX: I mean you can do it this way. You can go down here and across the main road and follow it

right away round to Burton. You can follow it further if you want to. MrX: There’s a lot of fishermen there. Probably a lot of it is private land. MsX: When you go this way you see all the horses exercising on that land, which must be farmland. MrX: It’s private land on the other side. MsX: But it’s a lovely walk on a nice day. INT: What would you think is the most important benefit for you then of the project? Has it been

being able to go down there and look at more wildlife? MrX: Yes I think so. MsX: Yes it’s very interesting now. INT: Can you remember when you heard they were going to do the project down there, did you

have any particular idea of what you thought it was going to be like, or did you have any

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expectations of what you thought it would be like? MrX: No I just thought they were doing it on account of being a backwash and I thought they were

just going to modify it so it would keep the water in. I didn’t think of anything like they are trying to do.

INT: So you didn’t have any vision of what it might look like? MrX: No MsX: No. Like I say we just like to go around the river. MrX: You see it used to flood. It used to come back up and we have had it up to the road on the

bend here and that was with flooding because the water couldn’t get away fast enough. One year they came down and knocked the banks down and the water swelled both ways which kept it down. I thought they had come to improve on that, because it used to get really close. It never actually hit the houses over here but on the far bottom ones used to get it so far up their gardens.

MsX: Actually it makes you wonder because these xxxxx are old 1924, our gardens when it pours

down, I can go out there when it really pours down, and you know how people come up covered in mud in half an hour or so it is drained and quite dry for me to walk on. These are all built on sand. This was a sand quarry so it makes you wonder what that was at the same time. When we built the drive there and to get the sand we dug down in the garden and we just dug the sand out and made the drive out of the sand.

INT: Really? MsX: Yes so it makes you wonder if that’s the case with the river. It does make you wonder. MrX: That can’t have a sandbed or the water would just disappear. MsX: Yes but the river itself when they built it had been clay and it makes you wonder. INT: Now that they have done the project… MsX: You mean they have completely finished now have they? INT: Well as far as I know they are going to finish off the end bits of the footpath, they are going

to put the bridge in. I don’t think they plan to do anything else. MrX: Are they not going to put a footpath in? INT: I don’t know anything about that, I don’t think so. MrX: To me if they don’t put a footpath in they have wasted what they have done. MsX: Really speaking, OK you get people go down there with dogs with their big wellies on, but

the likes of me, to be honest wellies kill my legs so I wouldn’t do it. You have got to go this

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way to get over, and if it is muddy obviously you won’t go. If it has been pouring down and the sun comes out and you had somewhere to walk on you would go.

INT: Would you say, you said you really didn’t know what it was going to be like before, but I was

going to say to you is it like you thought it was going to be? You said you hadn’t imagined it at all.

MsX: We hadn’t imagined it, but now that we have seen it we think it should be finished with

another path to go to the bridge. MrX: The general idea was for the public to be able to enjoy it, but it seems as though they have put

the emphasise on the far side and stopped and it’s going nowhere. It’s incomplete as far as I am concerned.

MsX: We had no idea to start off with but now that we have got the idea, the idea we have got is

that it is not finished. INT: Ok. Does the river play a part in your life at all? MrX: Oh yes. MsX: In good weather. MrX: If there had been a footpath on this side even like as now you would walk down. But

nobody is going to walk along there unless they have got their wellies on. I don’t think they use that now on this side, only the ones with the dogs. We have got a dog but we don’t take it down there. We always let it use the garden.

MsX: He’s only a xxxxx. MrX: You have got people down there, I’m against these people, they have got 3 or 4 dogs. MsX: There again they are using it as their toilet facilities. Really even out here I have a dog and

my dog doesn’t go on anybody else’s property but my own. To them it would be great to a degree but to me it is not finished.

INT: Do you think that the river plays an important part in the life of the local community

generally around here? MsX: Yes I do. MrX: Yes in the summer there’s a lot of people down there. MsX: At one time, I don’t know whether you know, did you say you came off the bus over there? INT: Yes. MsX: You know there’s a little garage there, at one time that was a service area and we have been

here 21 years so in this period of time the man that owned that wanted to extend it at the side,

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it wasn’t particularly the man we are talking about it was another person entirely. He wanted that side bit to be taken up to store his cars for MOT because it was a proper garage. All the street were in uproar because they didn’t want the green land taken off them, they went down to the town council and everything. At the time all the kids were here then and it played an important part for the people in this street. The man did get it and he sold it. We had a little extension there and put some greenery around this back so it was covered in, but he sold it out to a car firm that sold cars, did away with the petrol station and sold cars. It shows you that the street really wanted that as the river, the river is important to the street. The same as a few years since when they de-commissioned the buses we had at least 200-300 buses going down this street. United had it, Alberts had it, Stagecoach had it they all had buses and they went up and down this street every two or three minutes. We got a petition up to say that we didn’t want it, which we don’t because these are our properties. We got it in the end that one bus came down there it doesn’t come back up it goes and does a circle, which is all right, but these buses were all over, in fact the Stagecoach ousted United and United had to go out of business. The town bus went out of business because Stagecoach came in and gave everybody free buses for a period of time and that was enough time so the United was getting no paying passengers so they went bust. It shows you how important the environment is to this street. I don’t know about the others.

MrX: I think these streets on the riverside if you can get them all together in one go I think you will

find a good majority of them go down there and use the river. We can go down and sometimes it takes a long time because we keep meeting people and talking to them.

MsX: If it had been late we would have gone down there for a walk for half and hour and walked

half an hour back, but in the evening if we do walk out to keep fit we walk amongst the houses.

MrX: There was a period when women were afraid to walk down there because the kids were

congregating ... MsX: It has cleaned up a bit. Certain elements that were rough, one girl got pregnant, she’s had

the baby now and that particular group has dispersed. MrX: At the time it was intimidating further down. You would never go down there by yourself

because you didn’t know what you were going to find. INT: When they were planning what they were going to do with the river, do you think they took

into account how local people used the area or not? MrX: I don’t know because we didn’t know anything about it until all of a sudden there was a

notice at the bottom of the street, with plans on it and we wondered what everybody was looking at.

MsX: When we went down there the last time we took our glasses and read it. We don’t get a local

paper and it might have been in there, but not to our knowledge. INT: I think it was in the Echo. MrX: Well see we don’t buy the Echo.

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MsX: As a child I was brought up with the Daily Mirror and I used to read the comics and I think

it’s a case of what you get used to. I worked as a home help for 20 odd years and different people used to say to me I don’t know what you see in that mirror, well I used to say I don’t know what you see in the Echo.

MrX: The only thing people seem to say is so and so died yesterday. MsX: It’s hatched, matched and despatched that’s what it is. Every time I see my mother she says

so and so’s died ... INT: So you don’t know whether they took into account how people used it. MsX: No I don’t think so. INT: When people are planning projects like that do you think they should take into account what

people want? MrX: Yes I think they should have a meeting where everybody can put their own opinions across. MsX: Mind you as to meandering river, I think they’ve done - that’s OK. MrX: A lot of the councils will only let you know what they want you to know. Lots of cross talking for a while, unable to understand conversation. MsX: It’s like when they were doing the garage over there, nobody wanted it, there was a list of

names but they still went ahead. ?????????????? It’s like the new road ????????????? when it came around nobody wanted a garage over there at the time, it was terribly sad and really speaking you get a roundabout there and a roundabout here and it was bang in the middle of it.

INT: Were you involved in any consultation at all about this project? MrX: Not to my knowledge. The speed of the tape quickened I had it as low as possible but still unable to understand. INT: Would you say that you feel involved with the river at all? MsX: Only when you come and we put our twopenneth yes, otherwise it is just a case of walking

down when it is dry. MrX: What we say more than anything is that you have got to give the river time. It’s just going to

take its own time. I expected the upheaval because you never get anything tidy all the time. It’s just starting to happen. There’s a lot of coarse grass there and when they first put it in I thought they are making a mess of this, they could have put a good lawn down.

MsX: We are definitely getting a few different flowers.

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MrX: Well I thought the fish were starting to come back but I don’t know now. MsX: As a kid we went in the fields and saw the bobbies buttons and the cowslips and all the old

type flowers. I noticed two or three bonny flowers down there. MrX: Down by the Five Arch Bridge we did notice a few small fish in there. MsX: Ah there was a little story with that. If you remember, the river’s there and the path, there’s

like a natural pond, and my son, like I say he regularly went down to take the dog for a run, and there was this man down and he kept putting goldfish in if you remember. Well then it dried all up but it was still boggy. The same as on the other side of the river where that valley comes, at the top of there is a natural pond as well.

INT: One of the things the river people wanted to do with this project was to restore the river to

make it to a more natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, what would you say and how would you describe a natural river?

MsX: Well a river that’s full of life I would have said. With all the natural growth at the side and

animals on it and like I say fish. That’s how I would. MrX: Well it’s just a natural habitat. MsX: Just nice. MrX: You can walk down a river and it varies from one part to another. You get the deep parts

and you get the parts where in the middle it’s dry and on the banks usually on the big rivers like the Tees, when it has been high up it is under cut.

MsX: The Tees is well undercut. MrX: The grass comes out like that and there is nothing to support it on the top. This is where the

kids use it. MsX: We used to go in swimming and dive in and come up. MrX: This is where a lot of people see something and go up and look over the top and it’s the worse

thing you can do because you don’t know what the weather has done to underneath it. MsX: There’s one thing about it over here and from that farm down over, and apart from where the

gasworks was, most of it you can walk by the side of it. Apart from where the Tees you are talking about. A lot of it is farmland on the other side.

MrX: Walking down rivers you get rat holes. MsX: We are always looking for them. MrX: You also get kingfishers and you used to get them going into the holes and coming out again.

I used to live down on the rivers when I was out in the country.

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Tape turned over. MsX: It dropped and the nest was still up there and the water was here and they were in it weren’t

they. Yes there were an awful lot as well last year because we kept counting them. MrX: They were breeding. They survive well. Once upon a time you used to get a clutch of

about 5 or 6 and finish up with only one or two. MsX: We always used to count them and the water hens. MrX: There’s more survival now than are getting killed off, at least it seems to be. MsX: They can be there one minute and then they go down to the South Park and you have lost

them. We can go as far as the Albert Road Bridge and follow it right down to there and after that we have lost it.

MrX: I think a lot of these ducks are coming from the South Park. When they get over populated

certain ones are taking away from the nest. MsX: They know fine well if they are under that bridge they get fed. MrX: Any animal or bird finds a good place and knows it has good vegetation they are going to

stay there. MsX: And another thing since they have done the restoration on the river. INT: If you are talking about a natural river, what do you think the channel would be like on a

natural river? MrX: A channel, well you can get it in a straight path and then it goes around in a horseshoe. I can

tell you where there’s a good example of it and that’s in Erwood on the Tees. Well this river Skerne joins the Tees at Croft. To go down from Croft it runs into Erwood. When you get to Erwood there’s one there, that’s how I know all about it. It goes into a complete horseshoe, round like that and you are going along it varies in each direction. You can even get all of a sudden an island appear in the river, because as the water drops you get the high spots and the low spots and the high spots are left like a little island. I like the idea to improve it, and it is better than it was.

INT: How natural do you think it looked before they did that and how natural do you think it looks

now? MrX: Actually I think it is better now. It was just straight before, I wouldn’t say completely

straight but near enough. This has slowed it down and you are not getting the water level dropping as fast as it used to. One minute it was up and the other it was down.

INT: Do you think it looks more natural now that it did before? MrX: Yes I do. Actually I like it better as it is now. I mean we have said what we think would

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improve it a lot, and I think most people around here would appreciate it a lot more if it was completed in that text. But the river bed itself is better now.

INT: Compared to other rivers that you have been to that you think are more like natural rivers,

how does that compare now? MrX: There’s a big difference. I think unless you are a person who hasn’t been around rivers you

can see that it has been tampered with in some respects. INT: Talking about restoring the river to make it more natural and return it to its natural state, do

you think that’s possible. MrX: Well you see you are concentrating on one section and the river is only as good as what’s

happening two miles further up. You can’t say you are going to improve this section of the river without making sure the other section is going to keep it clean over that end. A lot of the rubbish that comes down here comes from Aycliffe and places like that. Down town the bridges they could put stuff across them to catch any stuff that’s thrown down every so often. They have got gates there for people to go down and clean it all out. That stretch between Crown Street and the South Park is nice and it could be beautiful, but every now and again when you get a high flow like we have had over the last couple of weeks you finish up with a load of rubbish coming down as well. They don’t both cleaning it out straight away. You have got about four bridges before you get to South Park and I have often said if they would just keep there eye on these four bridges here and get in and get the rubbish out I reckon visitors to Darlington would spend a lot of time around there in this warm weather.

MsX: You can go shopping in that centre, walk across St Cuthbert’s church and the river is just

down from that. Not this side but on the other side there is a bank going down and there are willow trees and it is pretty. It can be prettied.

MrX: That was a mistake they made. If there’s any shortcuts to be made we will make them. We

have the dolphin centre and couple of years later we were told the concrete wasn’t right. It hadn’t been built all that long. That was probably somebody getting his mate to do it. It was crumbling.

INT: Thinking about natural rivers and stuff, it has been said that what we have actually done is

tamed most of the rivers in this country now, we have controlled them and we have managed them, do you think that’s true?

MrX: No I wouldn’t say so. MsX: If you go down there after there’s been a couple of days of rain it’s like a raging inferno. MrX: If you can control the rivers there should be no time in any year that they run completely dry.

We have had the river where there’s probably nothing left in it. We aren’t controlling the rivers.

MsX: You are probably modifying them but you are not controlling them. MrX: You are not controlling them.

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INT: Are you saying they have been modified or changed in some way but it’s not really ...? MsX: You can’t do it. MrX: If you can control the flow, even if you put a damn in you always put the side gateways so if

you get an overflow the water can still get away. The bulk of the water stays but the outlet allows the overflow to go down.

MsX: If you get it dry then there’s very little, two days rain and it’s flooded. MrX: You can go down the Tees when you get a really good summer and you can probably walk

across it in a few places. MsX: He has mentioned that a few times actually. MrX: When I walk along the river I say it’s nearly dry and that means the fish are gasping and are

going into ponds. Once they get into smaller ponds that’s when they start dying off because they get the seagulls coming in and picking them up. The oxygen even goes out in the water. The flow keeps the water clean and the plants keep the oxygen in the water.

INT: Would you say that the River Skerne here has been modified but it’s still not controlled? MsX: Yes. It’s been modified but not controlled. You can’t control the river, you can’t control

the elements. MrX: Everybody talking about the Skerne. When it gets through the South Park it goes into the

other part of the park which we used to call the boating lake. That water in the boating lake end used to spread out. It was a very big lake with an island in the middle where all the ducks used to breed. Nobody ever went on it, it was just for the ducks. As you went through the gate there was a little boat house and a landing stage everybody used to go around there. All of a sudden they held it back and dredged the river so we lost all that lake into the Skerne. Now all you have got is a straight ….

MsX: Now that turned out that they put ????? on there on the far side. We went on a bus journey

and the river had overflown and just come up into the boating lake. MrX: That boating lake was very popular. MsX: It’s like that, the moment it flows it goes back into a boating lake. MrX: They trenched it a bit they made it deeper and wider. That boating lake was there all year

around. There’s a damn at the other end. MsX: He lived one end of the town and I lived the other, so he knows more about that end and I

know more about this end. MrX: That boating lake we used to live down there.

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INT: Do you think that modifying a river makes it more or less natural? MsX: It depends what they are doing to it. MrX: They can either spoil it, I mean if they just go down and clean it all out and cut the edges

back all they are going to do is create a faster river, and you just lose all the water faster. I think what they should do is making so it will retain so much, that way you would always have a certain amount of water. It would only start flowing properly when you had a ????? So you have got the straight flow through when you need it. I mean I am not saying keep the water back permanently, you can’t do that, you have got to let the water flow so you always want outlets and the side, so that any surplus can drain away and you get the fish coming in. I would think of it like a series of steps. You have got to keep the sides low.

MsX: That’s another thing because when you have kids around you can’t really have a really deep

river can you. INT: Do you think it matters that we modify our rivers? MrX: Oh yes. The only thing I have against modified rivers is that you can’t tell me you can

modify a river without killing off some of the wildlife that’s in them. There are things in the bottom of the river besides fish and I reckon if you start digging down there…

MsX: Well they said they found all sorts of skeleton things. MrX: When you are talking about a river everybody thinks about fish, but there’s other things in the

river apart from fish. I reckon if you come along with a dredger and start dredging it or doing whatever, you are ……

MsX: I mean it was the same when they altered the town square. They altered the town square

because it was a car park basically at one time. They altered it and then they found old bones. Probably that was old church ground at some time, and what they did they got the church railings. But on this side of the railings when they were excavating they found an ancient Briton’s body, and now if you look outside of that particular path you will find a circle of seating and they have done a wheelchair from the floor and put it into sections and they have made what they think is a particular person. They couldn’t find all the bones obviously but what they know belongs to one person they have put it into segments. In a way it’s like a burial ground that has attracted people to sit and it’s a canny area.

MrX: The town centre is pretty good now. MsX: Especially over Christmas. What they have done with it being a town where they have

always had cars and muck and pollution that drops down, the Dolphin Centre over that side kids were running out of the Dolphin Centre straight into the paths of cars. Now they have got a nice area there that’s car free. Not only that in certain times of the year they have things on. This was a Quaker town and they don’t believe that Sunday is supposed to be a fun day here. It’s nice for them to bring some of these old customs, two or three times it has been old crafts that they have put on like ancient Britons where they have dressed up. They have had street walkers and all sorts. At Christmas they had a tree all in lights but it was the way it was decorated. It was exactly the same for the town they did the flowers all beautiful.

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MrX: I think they haven’t gone far enough yet. They want to get the bloody buses on the outskirts

and all. I don’t believe in any car being in a shopping centre. We have two cars in this family, but I would sooner get the Leader and let the cars stay on the outskirts and the buses. The buses in the town centre and they are pumping out poisonous fumes all the time.

INT: This is the last couple of questions. Would you say that you think the restoration project is

scientific in any way? MsX: Well I suppose it depends who you are and how you look at it. In certain ways yes

because I mean if the old things are all coming back and science is progressing then it could be.

MrX: Look at all those things they have put in for the ducks and that… MsX: The meanders. MrX: Near the bridge, you wouldn’t have got them in a natural river, would you?. MsX: What it is doing there is making the flow of the river just run over the cobbles. MrX: Well when water goes over stones it is cleaning the water. MsX: It could be construed as scientific for people who study the ducks and study the environment. INT: What kind of science or knowledge do you think you would need to do a project like that?

Do you have any idea? MsX: Probably history. That’s what Darlington’s built on history. The river actually was built on

Tees Mill, the mill was on the site of the river and there was an awful lot of things that was driven with the water.

MrX: They knocked Tees Mill down and turned it into a car park. They didn’t make it into a nice

car park, it’s just left rough and they are charging people anything from 60p to use it. MsX: The mill was ugly but there’s still an ugly piece on the left next to the library. MrX: It’s an eyesore really but because there was a bit of land there they thought this was a way of

getting some money, and they are charging people to go and park on something they could get bogged down on that part of the river. You would have thought they could have done something better than that.

INT: Going back to the river, can you think of any other types of knowledge that you would need

to do a project of this type? Apart from knowing the history of the area like you said? MsX: Well it’s history and I suppose it’s people that study animals and those that study the plants,

especially the old type plants if they are coming back. If by any chance some of these old type plants which we don’t know the properties in them, if they had something to do with the environment and some of the diseases. At one time all plants were beneficial to the human

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race for medical purposes. I worked as a home help and there was a cut through down yonder. There was a very old lady used to have a big knee like that. Her husband used to go to the Post Office which was a cut through onto the village here and she used to ask if I had ever cut through there. I said yes and she said did you ever see this blue flower, and I said yes. She said the next time you go over do you think you could bring me some of that back. She used to put the hot water on it and get the water off it and soak a cloth in it and it was comfrey. The comfrey used to take the swelling down on her knee. So some of them old plants that are coming back in. I did read an article where in some of the Egyptian tombs they found things and the particular seeds sprouted. If somewhere along the line it’s going to help mankind. The same I was ill last year and my hair started to fall out. The doctor said it was one of those things it may or may not come back. But I wasn’t content just to sit back, I went to the herbalist, we were in York and she looked at the roots and said rosemary is very good for the loss of hair. The rosemary is an essential oil, not aromatherapy it’s an essential oil. I have a concession in the bathroom where I put so many drops and some shampoo and I find that my hair is a lot thicker now. There’s another old herbalist remedy that could be found, I don’t know. If by any chance it brings some of the things back that is going to benefit mankind then certainly it should.

INT: Do you think the people that did the project, how much do you think they know about

restoring rivers? MsX: Well they are supposed to be experts aren’t they. Yet they are great big pieces where they

have cut chunks out of the lawn. MrX: I think they did a good job down there really. INT: Do you think they have got the knowledge that’s necessary to do the job? MsX: Well they should have. In olden times you did what you could. Nowadays there are more

books and more education. MrX: I mean we aren’t experts but I think they have done pretty well. The spring that’s done there

that they have put into a pipe, because you can’t do away with the spring the water has got to go somewhere.

MsX: Springwell and Rothwell that’s why they called it that. Springwell is two streets away and

Rothwell is just up that way. MrX: You can’t just stop water or else you will have problems. You can accommodate it and think

about it. MsX: I don’t think they have done a bad job. INT: So would you say you trust them to know what they are doing? MrX: Yes. MsX: Yes I would say so I wouldn’t put anybody down.

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MrX: If I thought they hadn’t done a good job I would have told you. To my knowledge, I am not an expert, but in my opinion and what I have seen of it I think if they had put the path in they have done all right on the whole.

MsX: If you talk to anybody that uses that I would think they say the same. INT: Do you think there is anything else that we can learn or anything else that needs to be

investigated about doing projects like this that you can think of? MrX: There is always something you can learn if you have got the manpower and the money to go

into it. A lot of things get down and they say it’s finished and forgotten and they go onto the next project.

MsX: They can video things now as they go along at each stage. Years ago you couldn’t do that. MrX: It is easier to keep the records now than it was years ago. If people are prepared to spend

the money to put the technology to good use it can be useful. MsX: It can also help future progress. If it’s all put down then they can find the mistakes. MrX: If somebody comes up and does the job, that’s how I want it done, move on and do the next

one. What they have probably done there, it happens in our works, there’s a lot of things they could have learnt there and they just let it go by the wayside. They just go onto the next project and it’s exactly the same as they have done there.

MsX: Let’s face it you do something, whatever it is in life, and it goes wrong you don’t want to do

that again. If they put a record on it for future use, like you’re doing, then that can help. MrX: When you are talking about companies at the end of the day its pounds, shillings and pence.

If they think that keeping something on record is going to cost they will say forget that we can’t afford it. We have got away with this bit we will go on and do the next bit.

MsX: That would depend on the person because if they wanted to progress…. MrX: Well but when you are talking about business it’s money that do it, and you can’t get away

from that. I think that this particular bit, as much as I know about these types of projects, they have done very well.

MsX: We are talking to somebody here because when we go anywhere and he sees a bridge, I get

sick of it actually, because he says oh look at that, just look at that welding, just look at those pot rivets, you don’t see those now.

MrX: Well if you saw the work that went into putting them in then you would appreciate it. MsX: John was in the marines as well - built bridges. When you get the problems down here on a

little bit of river with thousands and thousands of pounds involved when all you want is to get from a to b.

MrX: When they built that they put three pipes in and they put aggregate over the top of them so

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that the water could flow through. It’s not a hard job to get a bridge across. All they would have to do there it put two concrete posts on both sides, drop some girders on tie them in and they have got it. When I saw that design I thought that was a lot of money going there.

MsX: xxxx’s a xxxxxx and he reads the drawings on the bridges. MrX: When I saw it I thought they were going over the Zambeze, never mind the Skerne. Tape stopped.

1

SKERNE INTERVIEW 12 – 13TH JANUARY 1988 INT: Presumably you know what has been done down by the river, or do you know much about

what has been done down there? MrX: Just what I was told last time. INT: Right. Have you been down and seen it at all? MrX: No I haven’t had time to go down. INT: So you have never actually seen what has been done down there? MrX: No. INT: Ok. I am not sure how much you will be able to answer these questions then, but I will go

through anyway and you can do your best. What I was going to start with was asking you whether you thought the project had been successful or not in any way? If so how you think it might have been successful? I don’t know whether you can answer that at all?

MrX: I can’t really no because I haven’t seen it. INT: So you don’t know how successful it might have been. Have you heard from anyone else

anything about it at all? MrX: Oh I have heard about it a couple of months ago when a lot of fish had died. There was

some kind of pollution higher up the river. That was on the news wasn’t it? INT: But that was nothing actually to do with the project? MrX: Not to do with the project no, but that’s all I have heard about the Skerne. INT: OK. Could you think perhaps of any benefits for yourself, I know you don’t go to the river,

but any other people in the area who might visit the river and what has been done down there?

MrX: Yes it looks nicer and a more pleasant environment. INT: Any other things? MrX: Have they stocked it up at all for the fishermen? INT: There are fish in there but I don’t think they have actually stocked it as such. Only the fish

that were there before there may be slightly more of them now, but I don’t think they have stocked it at all.

MrX: Right. I saw some fishermen a couple of weeks ago that I had never seen before. INT: So you think it could benefit people by looking nicer, what other benefits?

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MrX: Just the environment really. We went down when we first moved in about 4 years ago, but it

has never occurred to me to walk down there since. INT: Do you know whether it might have benefited wildlife at all? MrX: It must have done. INT: I was going to say what did you expect it to look like before it was done, and how does that

compare now with what has been done? If you don’t go down there then you can’t answer that.

MrX: It’s probably a lot nicer though. INT: I was going to ask what part does the river play in your life. Obviously it doesn’t play any

part at all. MrX: I do fishing but I never go on the Skerne. INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the life of the local community generally would you

say? MrX: Not in Darlington no. People in Darlington aren’t particularly country orientated they are

more suburban. Maybe higher up where it starts off. INT: But you don’t think this stretch. MrX: They throw a few shopping trolleys and things into it. INT: It wouldn’t be a river without a few shopping trolleys. Do you think that stretch of the river,

we are talking between the Skerne Bridge to Haughton Bridge, I don’t know if you know that stretch at all?

MrX: Where’s the Skerne Bridge? Oh is it at Great Burton where the road goes over it. INT: No it’s just literally on the edge of the town here just a little bit farther up. It’s about a 2

kilometre stretch from where the project started. It’s just that stretch which includes Five Arches Bridge. I don’t know whether you know that?

MrX: The railway bridge. Yes I walked through there a few years ago and that was the last time I

was there. INT: The Skerne Bridge is the one on the five pound note that everyone talks about. That

particular stretch of the Skerne which is all I am asking about, do you think that particular bit of river plays an important part in the local landscape of the area or do you not know?

MrX: It probably doesn’t play a big part in it. It’s all fairly urban. There are other things in the

landscape that people see more than the river.

3

INT: What sort of things are you thinking of? MrX: Distant buildings. I mean you see the bridge over the Skerne but you don’t see the river that

much from the town. INT: Do you know whether the way people use the river locally was taken into account when this

scheme was planned and designed? MrX: No I don’t know. INT: You don’t know whether it was. Do you think it should be in a project like this? Do you

think local use of the area should be considered when things are designed? MrX: I think so yes. That’s one of the reasons for doing a project in the first place is to improve

the whole situation. If it affects the residents of the area so they should be taken into consideration.

INT: Do you look upon the river as belonging to the local community at all, as being local

property? MrX: Not really no. INT: Do you think other people in the area might do? MrX: I wouldn’t have thought so. INT: From what you are saying, you don’t feel involved with the river in any way at all? MrX: No I don’t think so. INT: You mentioned fishermen just now. Do you think there are any other groups of people who

might be more involved with the river around here than say you are? MrX: People who walk their dogs, that’s about it. Dog walking seems to be popular. INT: Were you involved with the consultation for the project. I know you were interviewed

before, but apart from that? MrX: No I wasn’t. INT: You weren’t involved at all. MrX: No. INT: Did you know that there was consultation going on like public meetings? MrX: She asked me that last time but no I didn’t know at all. INT: Nothing at all. Most of it happened end of 1994 early 1995. Do you know whether any

4

other local people were involved? MrX: No I have never been told about any. INT: Do you think, if you had known that there were things like public meetings and exhibitions

and things would you have taken more of an interest? MrX: Yes I would have gone. Definitely. Being a fisherman like. It’s a good wildlife area. ??????

If it was in the Cotswolds then it would make a lot of difference, but somewhere like Darlington it is a lot different when it’s in town. It’s not exactly Burton on the Water or anywhere like that?

INT: Would you say that you think local people should be consulted about projects like this? MrX: Oh yes definitely. INT: Could you think of any other ways you could have been more involved with what was going

on? MrX: Other than being told what was happening, no I can’t. INT: You didn’t know about the consultation, but I was going to say how satisfied were you with

the consultation, and whether you thought it had been successful, but I assume you couldn’t answer that?

MrX: No I wasn’t consulted. INT: OK. One of the things that the people that did the project said they wanted to do was to

restore the river to a more natural condition along that stretch. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, how would you describe a natural river?

MrX: Nothing man made, no bridges, no weirs, no artificial banking. INT: So what would there be if there were no man made features there. What features would you

expect to find. MrX: Rapids, waterfalls, meanders, vegetation and trees. I can’t think of anything else. INT: Do you think, you were saying there’s not much you can do with a river in a town like this,

do you think it’s feasible to talk about restoring a river to its natural state? MrX: Not once it goes through town no I don’t think so. It’s channelled between concrete banks

once it’s in the confines of the town. INT: What about in rural areas, do you think it is more feasible there? MrX: I would say so yes. In a rural area it shouldn’t have been tampered with in the first place. INT: You said you did go down there once before?

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MrX: Yes that was in November 1995. INT: So that was just after they had done the meanders was it? MrX: Yes that’s right there was a lot of new things around there, there was a lot of mud about. INT: But you hadn’t been down there before? MrX: No. INT: So you don’t know how natural it looked? MrX: No, it did look natural [when he did see it]. They seem to have introduced a few artificial

rapids or gravel beds which spread the water. It looks all right and it probably looks nice now it has started to grow.

INT: Would you have any idea how natural it looks now? MrX: No. Not without going down there. INT: A lot of people say that we have tamed rivers in this country, we have controlled them, do

you think that’s true? MrX: Yes definitely. There’s a lack of water so they are all getting drained. INT: Do you think it matters that we do that? MrX: Yes definitely. INT: Are you saying that we shouldn’t do it, or that it needs to be done? MrX: It needs to be done now because the water in this country has been badly managed due to all

the leakage. If there wasn’t any leakage I don’t think there’s any need to mess around with the rivers. Britain is a wet country, I can’t see that there should ever be a problem with water supplies.

INT: Do you think that by taming or controlling rivers like we do, do you think it makes them less

natural? MrX: Oh yes I do. INT: In what way do you think it makes them less natural? MrX: It reduces the flow. You see some dried up rivers, not here but down in the South East. INT: Can you think of any other ways it might make them less natural? MrX: No other than reducing the flow which is a pretty major thing.

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INT: Do you think a river can still look natural if it has been controlled and managed? MrX: If it has been done properly and very thoughtfully. INT: Right. By being done properly what do you mean? MrX: Just doing it with a view to being natural with vegetation around it and general curves of the

river so it doesn’t look contrived. INT: Would you say that it might look contrived down at the Skerne? MrX: When I went a couple of years ago it seemed all right with nice gentle curves, like they had

thought about it, which I am sure they had. It is quite a big undertaking so I am sure they thought about it very well.

INT: Do you think that river restoration can be seen as being scientific? MrX: Yes. INT: In what sense would you think it was scientific? MrX: It alters the whole ecology of the area, the wildlife, the plants ... INT: Have you got any other idea of what other sorts of scientific knowledge, or knowledge

generally, would be needed to do a project like that? You have just mentioned ecology, can you think of any others things?

MrX: Any other types of scientific knowledge, no I can’t. INT: To what extent do you feel the people that carried out the project know how to restore rivers?

Have you got any idea? MrX: I would imagine they are very well qualified, they would need to be engineering type of

people to be able to do that. I am sure if they weren’t qualified they wouldn’t have the task given to them in the first place. It’s an engineering type of thing, not a scientific question. Certainly you would need engineering knowledge. Knowledge about how liquids flow I should imagine. If you go about it half cock and do too sharp a curve then the bank can erode more and things can go wrong.

INT: So you think that the people do have the necessary knowledge? MrX: Yes definitely. INT: Would you say that you would then trust them to do what they think was right? MrX: Yes I certainly would. INT: Can you think of anything else that you think still needs to be learnt or investigated about

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restoring rivers? MrX: The main point I think is pollution further up the river. You can do all the restoration you

like and make it look pretty, but if there’s chemicals and effluent going into the river then there’s no point in having it. It should be as clean as possible and they should fine the companies who dump the waste into the river, whether it’s an accident or not this day and age. There shouldn’t be accidents as far as I am concerned. That’s the main thing to me it should be clean.

INT: Right OK. So are you saying that if they do a project here and the river is polluted further

along you are not going to really achieve anything? MrX: No not really. INT: So are you saying that they should look at restoring the whole length of the river? MrX: Yes stopping the pollution at the top of the river. If there’s pollution at the top then there’s

pollution all the way down. You have got to get the basics right really before they spend money on making it look nice. That’s my view. To me the river should exist more for the wildlife in the river, rather than for the people who look at it. People looking at a river can’t tell it’s polluted, but the fish and the ducks and birds around it can. So I think that’s quite important.

INT: How important do you think doing a project like the one here it is to have things like new

footpaths by the river and bridges for access for people? MrX: To a certain extent as long as it doesn’t interfere with the appearance of it and the ecology of

it. You don’t have to have a perfectly flat tarmac path by a river, you can just have a river bank which is a public right of way. In fact they shouldn’t make it a path at all they should just have the riverbanks, something that’s easily accessible.

INT: I don’t know if you know they have put a bit concrete footpath all along? MrX: Yes that was there when I went there. That to me is not a riverbank. INT: OK. That’s interesting because most people around here have been more concerned about

having that than what’s really been done with the river itself. MrX: No I think it should be what’s in the river itself. As long as it is nice and flat you can walk

along it. I suppose it helps disabled access. If you had that attitude you would pave every river then or tarmac everything. You have to leave something back for nature.

INT: So you don’t see those sort of features as being particularly important for a project like this? MrX: No not at all. In fact the more people that walk by it the more chance there is of it getting

polluted. If you put a path by a river there’s going to get coke cans dropped there and litter dropped there.

INT: Is there anything else you would like to add or ask?

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MrX: Is the project finished? INT: Well the actual restoration of the river bit is finished. What they are doing now is

monitoring what is happening with the vegetation. How much wildlife is coming back and what type of wildlife. That will go on for some time so that they can try and decide whether they think it has been a success from that point of view. They are monitoring the water quality and that sort of thing.

MrX: Doing this restoration, what will that do for the water quality? INT: Well they are hoping it will improve it, but as you said earlier, it’s not just this stretch of the

river because water comes from further up. If that’s polluted and comes down then this project is not going to change that particularly. They have put a few reed beds in and they hope that will filter out the river. They have done a bit of planting and a bit of landscaping, and put meanders in along the bank to stabilise the river and things like that. What they plan to do is put a new footbridge in which hasn’t gone in yet because they didn’t get the extra lottery money they wanted. They have had to re-think how they are going to do the bridge and they will have to do a cheaper one now. As far as I know that’s going ahead this year. They have got to put a slight extension to the footpath each end to link it up to the two bridges. That is definitely planned. As far as I know that’s it. Nothing else is going to happen then. It’s just a matter of waiting for the river to mature if you like, for the vegetation to mature and the new trees to grow up and that sort of thing, but basically it’s done. There is some talk possibly about extending the footpath even further, actually making it go right into town, but I don’t know whether that’s going to happen. It is certainly being talked about but I don’t know who will be responsible for funding that, it might be the council rather than the river restoration people.

MrX: Well on the edge of town there’s really more scope to make it better. As I said before it’s all

enclosed in concrete banks downstream and up here there’s a little more scope to make it better. Was it altered in the first place?

INT: Yes it was. MrX: Was it years ago? INT: Yes it was channelised for flood defence purposes. Certain parts of the land used to flood, it

still does actually but not to the extent that it used to. Now with the techniques they have developed they know how to control flooding more now without having to put them in a concrete channel. The idea is that we will keep some of the natural flood plain and make it flood periodically which they have done there. So yes it has been altered before. Well thanks very much for your time.

MrX: It’s all right it was interesting. INT: You will have to go down there now. End of tape.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 13 - 13TH JANUARY 1998 INT: Have you been down to the river recently? MrX: Yes I saw it this Saturday. INT: So you know what it’s about. MrX: It’s a bit muddy really because of all the rain. INT: It is yes, I went yesterday and realised it was really muddy. The river has been up as well

hasn’t it? MrX: That’s right yes. Well we need the rain, they reckon all the reservoirs need it. INT: Yes they certainly need it especially down in the Southern counties. I am doing a project

for Middlesex University, not the river restoration people, we just thought it would be useful to follow up a study we did last year which we did for them, with some questions of our own, trying to get some answers to certain questions we were interested in. It shouldn’t take too long hopefully, depending on what you have got to say. So you know what has been done down at the river, the project and things. Can I start by asking you whether you think the restoration project has been a success or not? If so, in what ways do you think it has or hasn’t been.

MrX: Well it looks a lot better I must say that. The path on the other side of the river I think has

done a lot of good obviously. Perhaps it could do with one on this side of the river now. It looked very muddy on Saturday when I went around, people tend to make a path and perhaps a concrete path on this side might make it a little more successful.

INT: So you think it has been a success as it has provided a path for people and it looks nicer, are

there any other ways you can think it may have been successful, or for whom it might have been successful?

MrX: Well for the wildlife. There seem to be a few more ducks now, whether it’s just my

imagination but I think there are more. INT: I think you are right actually. MrX: And of course it will take maybe a little longer for the grass and trees to develop and the

flowers and whatever to develop. I think by and large a lot of people appreciate it. I may be wrong but people seem to enjoy walking around it now.

INT: Do you think it has improved recreation opportunities for people in the area, given them more

things to do when they visit the river or more things to look at? MrX: Well I would say it is better to look at. Of course it provides also the dog walkers ample

opportunity to exercise their dogs. INT: That’s true.

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MrX: It’s obviously more pleasant for them. Just where the Five Arch Bridge is, I don’t know

whether you know that or not, as I went through there I noticed there was a tree that has probably been damaged in the gales. I made a comment to my wife that perhaps that particular area could do with having more trees planted. I don’t know whether there are plans to extend the path to that particular area, because it stops far short of there.

INT: The new path do you mean? Yes it does. You know there is going to be a new footbridge

going in this year hopefully, it’s going to be near Five Arches and I know they plan to extend the new footpath to the new footbridge so that people can do a circular walk really. But I don’t know whether they plan to extend the path any further along.

MrX: The only danger is that if you plant young trees and there is access to them the branches will

get broken. We have had it over here unfortunately. INT: I had heard the some of the plants had been dug up? MrX: What to take home? INT: Yes. I think actually I do remember them saying they were going to extend the path beyond

Five Arches, but I would need to check on that because I haven’t spoken to anyone connected with the project for along while so I am not really sure what the current position is.

MrX: Do you know if there was a bridge on this side of the Five Arches? It looks as though there

is the brickwork on either side. INT: There is brickwork along there. MrX: We have lived here about x years now and it is the first time I have noticed it on Saturday, I

wondered if there was a bridge originally on this side of Five Arch bridge. It looked as though there might have been.

INT: Not as far as I know and I have spoken to lots of elderly people who have lived here all their

lives and no-one has ever mentioned it. MrX: Unless there was meant to be one and it didn’t materialise. INT: Maybe there were plans at one point. MrX: It looks rather strange because there’s brickwork on both sides. INT: I can’t think of anything else it might have been for. Out of interest I will check next time I

speak to someone. I doubt it somehow because the elderly people have said it would be nice when there is a bridge there. None of them have said there was one there previously. I tend to think that there hasn’t been one there, at least not in their lifetime.

MrX: I would say that the area where they have improved the river, they have taken it and it comes

back on itself in that little area. That is very picturesque and I think it must be very good for those that live on the bank and look down on it. It must have improved their viewpoint

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definitely. INT: Out of all those things, what do you think, in your opinion, has been perhaps the most

important thing as far as it being successful? What would you see as being the most important thing?

MrX: I don’t know. Perhaps the attraction for the wildlife or plants. I honestly think that it has

improved it tremendously. INT: What would you say was the most important benefit for you then from the project, if any? MrX: The pleasure of walking around there now. INT: Would you tend to go down there more now than you used to do you think? MrX: I don’t know. Perhaps we would yes. Especially when they build the bridge because that

would make a nice circular walk, it would be a nice walk to do in the summer. We sometimes take our grandchildren down there in the summer when it’s nice. Unfortunately we have to go to the bridge and come back or we come back over the railway bridge at the top and come back that way. Having a bridge would make a nice circular walk for us.

INT: Yes it would, that’s what most people seem to feel. MrX: Especially if they do a concrete path on this side, I don’t know how they feel about that. INT: I don’t think there are any plans to do that actually. MrX: It looked very muddy over there. INT: It’s very muddy there. You’re not the first person to have said that. It is very muddy there. MrX: It seems as though that side has been given preferential treatment if you like. INT: I don’t know whether the idea was that visually it would look a bit too much to have two

footpaths. MrX: As I say people are making their own footpath and I am sure that people would rather walk

on concrete than mud. INT: I will certainly find out about that because several people have said the same thing. MrX: Especially if the bridge is going to come into that area. On one side you have a lovely

concrete path and the other is a mud path. INT: Yes that’s a good point. I will check on that. Can you remember when you first heard that

they were going to do the project, did you have any particular expectations of what it would be like when it was done?

MrX: Not really. To be quite honest I didn’t know exactly what they were going to do.

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INT: What I was going to say was how does the river compare now to perhaps what you expected

it was going to be like, but you say you didn’t really have any expectations? MrX: Well what I see now compared to what it was I think they have done a very good job. INT: Right OK. Would you say that the river plays any part in your life at all. MrX: Not particularly I wouldn’t say so. Perhaps a month ago we started walking towards town

on this side and they have developed that a little bit. Do you know about that? INT: I haven’t been very far along. I have just been to that little bit where it goes under. MrX: All of a sudden it stopped. The wife and I thought it was a pity you couldn’t walk into the

town by the river. We sometimes walk into town but we have to go down the North Road way on the bus route. I think a lot of people would find it beneficial if they could walk around there. You would be away from the traffic and especially in the summer months it would be really nice. I don’t know whether they have any plans for that.

INT: I think they would like to do that. Whether there are any concrete plans at the moment I

don’t know. I know it has been talked about, but obviously I suppose it’s the sort of thing they would have to get funding to do it. That’s not always very easy to get. Presumably that would be the council’s responsibility to do that. That is something else that other people have mentioned as well so I will check up on that.

MrX: You would prefer to walk along a river if it looks nice and clean rather than fuel filled

pavements. INT: So the river doesn’t play any particular part in your life? MrX: Only for walking. Whenever we have the opportunity to take the grandchildren as well.

Obviously at this time of year you are very limited but in the summertime we go over quite often.

INT: Would you say it plays a part in the life the local community generally? What part would

you say it plays? MrX: Only that it is nice for walking the dogs I suppose. INT: Do you see the river as being an important part of the local landscape around the area? MrX: As I say if it was developed so that you could walk into the town that would be a natural

progression from what they have done really. INT: How much do you, or maybe you don’t, see the river as belonging to the local community? MrX: Well we don’t wash in it now do we. We don’t wash our clothes in it now. We don’t have

boat racing or boating on it so I think to that extent it is just picturesque and it attracts the natural habitat for ducks and other marine life. I think that’s important as well.

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INT: So you wouldn’t really see it as being local property? Do you think other people might? MrX: I think if it wasn’t there, if somebody said we are taking your river off you I think then you

would have to look at it differently. It’s one of those things that you don’t realise how good it is until it is taken away from you.

INT: That’s a good point actually. Would you say that you felt any involvement with the river at

all? MrX: As I say we go down and throw bread to the ducks with the grandchildren, so I suppose in

that way it’s a bit of involvement or a bit of interest. INT: Do you know of any other local people or local groups of people that are more involved in

any way with the river and anything that does on there? MrX: I think perhaps the problem with it is that it’s a little bit out of the way for schools and this

sort of thing. I think if schools were a bit closer to it then once again in the summer they would probably take classes down and do nature studies and that sort of thing.

INT: I think some schools have been down to look at what has been done. I think you are right, it

could be used a lot more for schools. Were you involved in any way with the consultation for the project?

MrX: No not really. INT: You were interviewed last year. Were you interviewed two years previously? MrX: Yes. INT: You were. MrX: One of the things I did suggest was perhaps they could get lottery funding, that was one of

the suggestions I made. INT: They did get that. They were hoping to get more for the bridge but that was turned down,

which is why it has been so long waiting for the new bridge to go in. They had to re-think it. It is definitely going ahead this year.

MrX: The problem perhaps with what they have done now, is that some people may not have seen

what they have done because they haven’t been interested. If you put a bridge up immediately they say Oh they have put a bridge up and people can say they have done something tangible. Just altering the course of the river might not catch the eye of some people.

INT: It has changed a lot on that stretch, now that they have put the meanders in so it is quite a

dramatic change in some ways. If people tend to use the other end and not go up there then yes you might be right.

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MrX: Unfortunately we are slightly out of it. Those houses that look onto it either from that side or this side will have seen a real big change, for the better I would have thought.

INT: Yes certainly they seem to think so. MrX: Has anybody complained about it? INT: Not to me. MrX: I honestly think that what has been done has been a good job. INT: People have raised exactly the same points as you have about the footpath and the bridge and

stuff like that, dog dirt you know. MrX: Well you won’t stop that unfortunately, it’s a walk away from the streets and I think they

genuinely like the walk as well. INT: I think so. It’s interesting that the issues that people have raised have been less to do with

restoring the river and more to do with public amenity and access and things like that. Perhaps then the people see that as being more important. I don’t know how you feel about that? Do you think that?

MrX: Well as I pointed out it would be nice to walk into town along the river. Perhaps from my

point of view I would find walking by the river was better than walking along the road. Now if it was available to walk to the town that would be smashing by me and I would be able to see something positive from it. Perhaps in the same way as people who view that stretch a lot more than I do would see something positive there. Those people on the other side must be absolutely delighted with that footpath.

INT: They say they will be when the bridge is there, because at the moment they have to go up and

come back again. MrX: That’s right, well then they will be able to do the round trip won’t they and then they will

complain that there’s no footpath on this side. INT: You can’t win. OK, so you weren’t involved, apart from being interviewed, you weren’t

involved with the consultation. You didn’t go to any public meetings or anything like that? MrX: No. INT: Do you know if many other people around here that you know of were involved? MrX: No I don’t. INT: Did you actually hear about things like the public meetings and the exhibition in the library

and things? MrX: Yes, we got the information from the Echo.

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INT: So you did know they were going on? MrX: Yes. INT: Do you know whether any other local people were able to contribute to the design and

planning of the project at all? MrX: No. I think the danger with something like that is if you really don’t know what is involved

you shouldn’t poke your nose in. You can sound off about anything but if you don’t know what you are talking about you are doing the wrong thing. That’s the way I look at it. You leave it to the experts to decide the best way, and then you can decide afterwards if they have got it right or wrong.

INT: Do you feel that you and perhaps other people could have been more involved then if you had

wanted to be? MrX: Well as I say we could have said we will have a path here and a path that side, we will have a

bridge and can we walk into town. All these things take time and money. If you haven’t got that money then you have got to ask how far do we go then and somebody else has to make that decision and not us.

INT: That’s true. MrX: We could think of loads of things. Different people would say we could have this and some

want that and then you start another £10,000 or £50,000 and before you know it it’s like the millennium dome.

INT: Do you think that local people should be involved and they should be consulted? MrX: Yes in everything. If you don’t you have lack of interest. You have got to get people

interested really. INT: How satisfied were you with the consultation process for this project? MrX: I personally was all right as I have said because unless you know what you are talking about

on a project like that you really should take the advice of the experts. If I had been involved in that type of work and knew what I was talking about I would probably have been more involved in what was going on.

INT: Do you think the consultation was successful from what you know about it? MrX: Well I think it must have been successful because we didn’t have much choice as far as I can

see. I think the limitations has been that they haven’t had the financial support. If they had had more finances I think they would have improved it even better than it is now.

INT: Can you think of any way how the consultation could have been improved? MrX: Well only that you could have asked for representatives from this estate and other estates

around the river. They could have asked whether 3 or 4 committee members would have

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been willing to participate, sort of force you into it if you like. INT: Yes OK. MrX: As I say because people don’t know what’s involved they tend to step back. INT: You just talked about the experts who know what they are doing, to what extent do you think

that the river restoration people know how to restore rivers? Do you think they have the necessary knowledge and expertise then?

MrX: Well I would think so yes. They would probably have more than I would. INT: Would you say that you trusted them to do what they thought was right? MrX: Well if we can’t trust them who can we trust? You have got to trust your Doctor and your

dentist and people like that. You hope they are qualified to make the right judgement. INT: Do you think the restoration has been scientific in any way? Would you look at it as being a

scientific project? MrX: Only from natural science I suppose, habitat and that sort of thing. Perhaps it was something

that they wanted to do so that they could learn from it, I don’t know. INT: It was yes. MrX: It could have been an experimental exercise to see how it goes and it if comes out all right

then we will try another project somewhere else. INT: It was in fact a demonstration site, one of two in the country, where they were testing these

new techniques and things. MrX: Are they happy with it? That’s the important thing. INT: Yes they have learnt a lot from doing it. Some things they would do again and some things

they would do differently, but they have learnt a lot from it. MrX: Perhaps the type of land that particular stretch is might have informed them of something.

Perhaps you could go to somewhere else in the country and do it differently because of the type of land that they are dealing with.

INT: Would you have any idea of what sort of scientific knowledge would be needed to carry out a

project like that? MrX: Well civil engineering, naturalists and people like that in consultation. I believe David

Bellamy started it off didn’t he? INT: He did the official launch. MrX: Was it the first dig or something?

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INT: Yes that’s right MrX: I don’t know whether he was consulted about it at all? INT: As far as I know he wasn’t actually consulted but he was approached and he showed an

interest and he agreed to come along. MrX: I would have thought they are the sort of people that should be involved. If David Bellamy

had said I am going to give the people in this area a talk about what is going to happen, then people might have been more interested because they know him and they know that he wouldn’t be telling you a load of pork pies he would be giving you the truth. If it wasn’t right for him then it wouldn’t have been right for us would it? If it was right for him then it would have been right for us I would have thought, so perhaps maybe going back to your earlier questions perhaps in the consultation questions if someone like David Bellamy could have spoken at a church hall about the project and had the engineers with him to answer any questions. If somebody of his nature had fronted it I think it might have been noticed more.

INT: That’s a good suggestion. MrX: It was a bit like we are going to do this and we would like your opinion. We will tell you

what is going to happen but if you are not knowledgeable in these aspects you would have said just go ahead and do it.

INT: So what you are saying is that it was going to happen anyway. Is that what you are saying?

People were asked for their views on what was going to happen and maybe they could have some limited input into certain things is that what you are saying?

MrX: Well if somebody like David Bellamy were asked to look at it and we were told that he had

recommended certain things then you would have thought that if he had recommended them they are going to be good for that particular scheme, or somebody with his qualifications an independent person to look at it and say yes you are going to do that but I think what you should do is …., and then come and present it to the people and say we want to alter this stretch of river and we have asked whoever and he has recommended that we do this and this is what we are going to do. I think that will be a presentation rather than saying come and listen to us telling you what we are going to give you.

INT: Would you say there’s much more that still needs to be learnt or investigated about restoring

rivers? MrX: Well obviously because they have learnt from it. Maybe they could learn more if they came

back and had a look at it every so often. I don’t know if they are? INT: Yes they are monitoring. I don’t know how long that will carry on for, again it depends on

how much money is available, but it was certainly in the plan to do that and it is certainly happening at the moment.

MrX: If in two or three years time in the Northern Echo they were able to mention that the scheme

has been 98% successful just to let the people know that they have done a job and they have

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done a good job. INT: So you think some sort of follow up? MrX: Well if they have done a good job I think they should tell people. INT: Yes that’s right. MrX: If people disagree then they can say “well I don’t think they have because such and such ...”

For example the path that everybody has mentioned. INT: OK. MrX: Maybe if people felt so strongly about it then they could return to the lottery people and say

we have done this project, unfortunately we haven’t been able to finish is 100% to the liking of ourselves and the residents of the area. How about giving us from extra cash. Maybe if people feel that strongly about it and take that with them to the lottery people they may have that extra money granted to finish the job as they wanted. I don’t know. It’s more power to their elbow.

INT: It would be yes. MrX: I’m sure Tony Blair wouldn’t like to see an unfinished project. INT: It’s John Major who actually launched that project. It’s a different Government now. MrX: It’s not as though the costs are going to spiral where they said there’s £500,000 but it’s now

going up to £5million that wouldn’t be the case. INT: One of the things that they intended to try and do with the project was to restore the river to a

more natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, how would you describe it?

MrX: One that meanders. INT: Anything else? MrX: I think the slower the river movement the better. Especially this time of year when they are

a bit swollen. The slower they go the less damage they do. The less soil they take down and this sort of thing. I really think the slower the river moves the better. It has to move of course but it doesn’t have to go too fast.

INT: So a meandering river. Any other features you would normally expect to find by a natural

river? MrX: No not really, perhaps not in the area we are in. INT: I am not particularly thinking of a particular area, but thinking of how you would see a

natural river as being? That really depends how you define natural.

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MrX: Well obviously you like to see fish in it and this sort of thing. Of course fish bring otters and

the habitat that goes with it. Unfortunately man has encroached on that far too much, not only in rivers but other things as well.

INT: Anything else? MrX: No I just think you have got to see the trees and the woods and things. INT: How natural do you think the river was here before they did the project? MrX: Well unless it was man made it was perfectly natural wasn’t it? Water finds its own level

somehow. Because they have slowed it down that it why I think they have done a better job. INT: It has been channelised before, it had been straightened at one point hadn’t it? MrX: Quite possibly. INT: Yes it had been. Would you still have looked upon it as being natural? MrX: I seem to remember years ago when we had quite a bit of rain, there was an awful lot of

flooding with the McMullen junction with Haughton Road, so I presume that they straightened the channel somewhere in that area.

INT: Yes that was straightened. Mainly because of flood defence. MrX: Where they have done it now it is away from that area, so I can’t see it as being a problem

there unless it rains for about 5 months solid. They did used to have problems in that particular place, but that must have been 20 or 30 years ago. Sometimes you do need to change the natural course of the river for those ends. As they have done now alter it somewhere else to slow it down again.

INT: This actually comes onto the next question, which is that a lot of people say that we have

tamed the rivers in this country, that we control them to a certain degree. Would you think that is the case? That we do control our rivers?

MrX: Well only when we have to or need to. I am quite sure if you go up on the moors with the

streams and rivers running away madly that we haven’t even looked at our touched that’s the natural flow. I think once you get into the villages and towns man decides to alter it to suit himself. He doesn’t want his house flooded.

INT: So you think it is acceptable to modify a river when it is necessary? MrX: Well they have done that in York to a certain extent. INT: Yes I did a big study up there. MrX: They have even built a barrier around the Thames haven’t they?

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INT: Yes I was involved in that as well. Do you think that by modifying and controlling rivers like that it makes them less natural in any way, or do you not see that it makes them any different?

MrX: Well if it’s done right. If there’s a problem in one particular stretch of the river and you put

that problem right but it creates a problem further down and you put that right as well, the end result will be that you have got a river that’s somewhere near natural.

INT: How natural do you think then that the river looks since it has been done? Would you say it

looks more natural than it did? MrX: Yes I would. It was just like a channel with water running down. Now they have put

meanders in. INT: So it looks more natural now than it did before? Compared with other rivers that you know

or have visited in the past, would you say the river here now looks more natural than them, or more or less natural?

MrX: Well it looks fine by me. INT: So you think you could compare it with other rivers? MrX: Yes I think so. INT: We are talking about restoring a river here to its natural state, do you think it is feasible to

talk about doing things like that, restoring rivers? MrX: Well if the end result is going to be similar to what they have done here then yes. As I say

they have done a really good job and if they are pleased with that and prove they have done a good job then everybody knows.

INT: So you think it is possible to do that? Would you feel then that the whole objective of

restoring rivers is a good one? MrX: Yes as long as they do it right. INT: Overall you approve of what has been done? MrX: Yes. INT: OK I think that’s about it actually. That’s just about covered everything, unless there’s

anything else you would like to add or any other comments you would like to make. MrX: Well like I say I think they have done a good job. It looks a nice stretch now, the bridge will

make an improvement and the path would make an improvement, and if it were possible to walk into the town or extend the walk the other way somehow it would be even better. I think a lot of people like to be beside a river, if you go to Durham and places like that people like to walk beside a river and do activities on the river. I think it is just a natural attraction for people, and if it can be developed and improved that’s for everybody’s good.

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INT: OK thank’s very much for your comments it has been very useful. I am going to check up

on things that we talked about, because other people have made the same points. END OF TAPE

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 14 – 13TH JANUARY 1998 INT: This shouldn’t take too long hopefully. I just wanted to ask you a few more questions.

Some of them will be similar to the last time when somebody came and spoke to you with some new questions. Can I start by asking how, I mean obviously you can see the river from here, do you go out there every day.

MsX: Every day yes. Lately I can only go as far as the footpath now. At one time I used to go as

far as the Five Arches [bridge] but I can’t walk as far now. I do walk every day. If I don’t go that way then I go that way. This morning I went that way and when I went down there to the bridge I got the shock of my life. It was dark and a girl was there she said she was waiting for her friend. I thought what a place to wait for her friend. She was well dressed as well. She should have met them somewhere else.

INT: Have you seen what they have done further up the river where they have put the new bends

in? MsX: Oh yes I have seen that. It is better that as well. INT: What I wanted to ask you is whether you think the whole scheme that they have done here

has been successful or not? MsX: Oh yes I think so. INT: In what way do you think it has been successful? MsX: It looks more picturesque. They have taken the straightness out of the river. I think it has encouraged more wildlife down there as well. INT: Right yes. Do you think it has been successful as far as people going and visiting the river

by making it nice looking. MsX: Oh yes we get more people coming down here now. I think they are a bit curious and we

seem to get more people coming along now than we used to. INT: Of those things you just mentioned, which one of those things do you think is the most

important to you? MsX: In what way? INT: Well you just said a number of things why you think it has been successful, which one would

you say was the most important success? MsX: Well I think you see more wildlife now in the river. We get the ducks at this end now where

we never used to. INT: Do you think other people would find other things more successful perhaps than the wildlife? MsX: No I don’t think so. It’s mostly people that go for their dogs, and they go every day. I

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know everybody that goes around that way. It’s a pleasant walk now. INT: Would you say that the wildlife if the most important benefit for you from what they have

done there? MsX: Yes I like to watch them. I haven’t seen them but one or two of the men tell me of the

different things they have seen down there, little birds and that whereas they were never there before.

INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do a project along here, did you

have a particular idea of what you thought it was going to be like when it was finished? MsX: No I didn’t. INT: What I was going to say was how does it compare with what you thought it was going to be

like, but you say you didn’t have any particular idea? MsX: Well I was just taking notice of other people who were saying there was going to be a bridge,

the bridge is going to be through the Five Arch isn’t it? INT: That’s right, as far as I know by June. MsX: Yes that’s right. Apart from that I think we could have done without the bridge here because

we do get a lot of hooligans down here and there’s a lot of broken glass. They go down there at night. One lady was telling me when you get to the end it’s a dead end. She went down there one day and there was a motor bike. There were all plastic bags where they had been glue sniffing.

INT: Really. So do you think if they put another bridge in it’s going to encourage more people to

hang around? MsX: I think it would. I don’t think it’s necessary another bridge. INT: Most people that live up the other end say they want another bridge so they can do a circular

walk. MsX: Well this is it. They would have to go through the Five Arch Bridge wouldn’t they. I knew

that bridge when I was a little girl. I have always lived around this area. INT: So you have known the river since you were a child? MsX: Yes I remember when the young lads used to go and swim in the river through the Five Arch.

I remember it when there was a river and another pond, I remember all that. INT: That’s not there now? MsX: No. INT: Would you say that the river plays a big part in your life at all or not?

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MsX: I don’t think so really. INT: Do you think it plays an important part in the life of the local community generally around

here? MsX: Oh yes. We get more people along this end now bringing their dogs than we ever did. They

always used to go that way. INT: Do you think the river is an important part of the local landscape around here? MsX: Oh yes. Everybody that comes here and looks out the window says what a lovely spot it is. INT: Have you lived in xxxxxx for very long? MsX: x years. INT: When the people were designing what they wanted to do with the river here, the project, do

you think they took into account how local people use the river area? MsX: Well I should think so. INT: Do you think it’s important that they should do that, that they should take into account how

locals view an area before they come in and do a project? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you ever think of the river as belonging to the local community, local property if you

like? MsX: Yes I do really. INT: Do you think many people around here would feel that way? MsX: Yes I think so. I know one old lady that daren’t go down that way. Mind you her

eyesight’s bad. She says the water attracts her. When it was flowing quick it attracts her. INT: Oh really, she’s afraid she will fall in? MsX: Yes. When are they going to extend the other part, put an extension to the other bit? INT: I don’t know. I have not heard. I know they said they would like to do that but I haven’t

heard any more for a while. I suppose it’s a matter of when there’s enough money available. MsX: It’s not a very long walk down there. INT: So you think local people would think of the river as belonging to them if you like? MsX: Yes I think so.

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INT: Is that because you think people use it a lot? MsX: Yes because there’s a river there it attracts them you see. INT: Do you think it’s because people like yourself have lived here for a long time? MsX: No, people come from other parts of the town, not only people that live around here. I look

out the window and I see strangers. INT: They just come to walk along do they? MsX: Yes just to walk along. INT: Were you involved in any of the consultation that took place about the project. MsX: I can’t remember. INT: I know you were interviewed before. MsX: They did apologise for all the noise we have had to put up with. INT: You didn’t go to any meetings or anything about the project? MsX: No. INT: There was an exhibition in the library, did you see that? MsX: No I didn’t know anything about it. INT: Do you know anyone else around here that was involved at all? MsX: I don’t think so. INT: No. If you had known about these meetings and things would you have been interested to go

along do you think or not? MsX: Well it just depends when they would be on and that. At present the way I am, you know ... INT: Do you feel that local people should be consulted and should be involved with projects like

this? MsX: I think they should yes. INT: I was going to say how satisfied were you with the consultation but you say you don’t really

know very much about what happened? MsX: Well I am satisfied with what they have done. You do get more people along here and it’s

more pleasant to sit and watch them.

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INT: Would you say that there is any way in which you think the consultation with local

people could have been done better or could have been improved? MsX: I don’t think so. INT: I don’t know if you know but one of the objectives of the people that were doing the

project was to try and restore the river to make it look more natural along there. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river, what would you say to me? How would you describe a natural river?

MsX: It would be mostly like it is now with the reeds and things at the side, I think that is how a

river should look not plain and not straight. INT: Can you think of anything else a natural river would be like? Is there anything else you

would expect to see there? MsX: No. INT: Do you think the people that did the project would have a different idea of what a natural

river would be like? MsX: Well they should do yes. INT: How do you think they would see a natural river, have you got any idea? MsX: Well I look at it if it’s straight and it has the reeds and grass at the sides for the wildlife. INT: So you would expect to see some wildlife as well? MsX: Oh yes. We see more now that we did do. INT: How natural do you think the river was before they did the project? MsX: Well it was more natural before they did the project I think? INT: Why do you think it was more natural before? MsX: Well it was straight wasn’t it and it just went straight on. INT: You just said you thought a natural river would have bends in though, and yet you said

now you thought it was more natural when it was straight. MsX: Well as I remember it years ago when it was straight and it had all the bulrushes and

things like that, that’s how I look upon a natural river. INT: Oh right, that’s going back a while? MsX: Oh yes 50 years.

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INT: Just before they did the project, how natural do you think it looked then? MsX: Oh yes it did look natural. INT: Do you think it looks more natural now though than it did before? MsX: Oh yes. INT: Why do you think that? MsX: Well they have left all the reeds and that at the side, they haven’t taken those away. INT: Do you ever visit any other rivers in the area at all? MsX: No. INT: I was going to say how natural do you think the river here looks now compared to others? MsX: No I don’t visit any others. INT: Do you think it is feasible or possible to talk about restoring a river to its natural state, or

do you think it is not really a possible thing to do these days? MsX: I can’t answer that question. INT: So you don’t know whether it’s possible to restore a river to its natural state? MsX: No I am happy with it as it is. INT: Do you think it was a good idea to do the project? MsX: Oh yes and they have cleaned it out to what it was. INT: Some people say that in this country we have tamed a lot of our rivers, that we have

controlled them a lot now. Do you think that’s true? MsX: I don’t think so. INT: Do you think the river Skerne has been controlled at all by people? MsX: Oh yes I do. INT: Do you think we should control rivers like that? MsX: Yes I think so. INT: Why do you think that?

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MsX: Well this river flows better since it has been altered. INT: When you say flows better, how do you mean? MsX: Well it seems to ripple along to me. INT: Does it go faster or slower now? MsX: Well at present it is going fast that’s because of the heavy rain, but you get it running

faster through the bridge, it goes quicker there. INT: When it has not been raining is it…. MsX: Well when it is not raining you get the ducks down there, when the river is in it’s normal

state but when it is this fast you don’t get the ducks at this end. INT: It’s too fast then? MsX: Yes it’s too quick for them. INT: So when it’s not raining does it flow more slowly? MsX: Yes it does. INT: Do you think that controlling the river has made a difference to the flooding as well or

not? MsX: Well when I saw that over the path that morning I thought something should be done a bit

more for over there. It wasn’t a lot but you could still see where it had been over by the sludge that it had brought up.

INT: What’s the highest it has ever come up since you have been here? MsX: Well I have seen it right up to the top, not overflowing. Lately it has been high when we

had those heavy rains and that was the time it came over the path. INT: Do you think when people control rivers like this it makes them less natural or do you not

think it makes any difference? MsX: I haven’t noticed any difference. INT: So you think a river can still look natural even though it has been controlled? MsX: Yes I do. INT: Would you think that the project that has been done here is a scientific project in any

way? MsX: Yes I think so.

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INT: In what way do you think it could be said to be scientific? Have you got any idea? MsX: No. INT: Do you know what sort of things you would need to know, what sort of knowledge you

would have to have to do a project like this? MsX: No I have no idea. INT: The people that did the project were a group of people called the River Restoration

Project. To what extent do you think they know how to restore rivers. Do you think they have the necessary knowledge.

MsX: I would think so. INT: Would you say then that you trusted them to know what they were doing and to take care

of the river. MsX: Oh yes. INT: Would you have any idea of what else needed to be learnt about restoring rivers? MsX: No. I think they have made a good job, there is an improvement. It’s more pleasant to

walk along. INT: OK, you think it looks better and you think the river flows better and it had attracted

wildlife. MsX: Yes. INT: It’s good for people that want to walk along there? MsX: Yes it encourages people to go for a walk. INT: Do you think that people living here are happy that more people are coming down or not? MsX: I think so, some of these old people, like me, it’s interesting to see people pass by. INT: OK. Is there anything else you would like to say about the river? MsX: No. You haven’t anything to do with dog bins have you? INT: No. MsX: Who do we have to see. Those of us with dogs have to pick it up and there isn’t a bin

anywhere to be seen. It’s not right you know we have to bring it home and put it in the bin.

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INT: That would be the local council. MsX: I was telling the warden this morning and she said to ask you. She said if it is council

get a petition up. INT: Well I would because lots of people have said the same thing to me so I think people do

feel strongly about it. MsX: If we didn’t pick it up we would get into trouble so we have to come home and put it in

the bin. INT: I think a petition would be a good idea. MsX: From here all the way there’s not a bin, even when you get to the bridge. INT: Well that would be the local council. MsX: I think I will have to get in touch with them. INT: OK thank’s very much for your time.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 15 – 14TH JANUARY 1998 INT: Do you go down to the river very much. MsX: Yes. INT: So you have got a good idea of what it is like down there. Well can I start by asking you

whether you think the project has been a success in any way, and if so why you think it has been or why it hasn’t been?

MsX: Yes I think it has. There are more birds, I counted 27 canadian geese the other day. INT: Yes there are loads of them aren’t there. MsX: We had swans last year and swans this year. Only for a short time but we have had them.

Oh yes we have a goosander[?] which we haven’t had before. Grebes. The ducks are all the usual ones. There are more flowers which is nice, it’s lovely so see things like poppies. The path is a good idea because it does allow the people with wheelchairs to go along there, except when it has rained because in various places it floods.

INT: You know they are going to rectify that this year. MsX: Oh thank goodness. The only think I have got against the path, well I haven’t got against the

path I just don’t walk on it, where it’s rough which obviously has been done on purpose to give grip, well I assume anyway. That holds the water. When it freezes at night that is highly dangerous. I am fine because I just stay on the grass. So yes but there’s still an awful lot of water and I just wish they would drain it a little bit better. It’s very muddy. You can stand on it and hear the water going through it. I just wish the path led somewhere. Not necessarily a bridge at the other end but if it went all the way through it would be even better.

INT: I think that has been suggested. I don’t know if it is going to happen or whether the money

is available or whatever but it has certainly been suggested. MsX: It was supposed to have gone across a bridge. Where it ends there was going to be a bridge

going across to the other side. None of us is very keen on it. This is one thing I have against it, where they have contoured it more, kids on motorbikes are ruining it. It’s dangerous for animals and dangerous for small children. It’s a beautiful scramble track. It will be better still when they put the bridge up because they can use this side as a scramble side, then go over the bridge back up and over this little bridge and just keep going around. The only other thing is that I wish the local authority was there. The other side have got dog bins, but I wish, there is one dog bin which is right up at the St Williams exit. Well we don’t often go that way. I put mine in the ordinary rubbish bin because it was the only thing available on this side. There is a £25 fine if you don’t clear up after your dog which is fair enough. We always clear up after her, but you don’t really want to walk down there and back, walk up the road with dog dirt in a bag. It doesn’t look nice for other people. I can’t see it but other people can. They did have one right on the edge by the garage here, but that broke and it got moved away and that was it. There is one right up the other end by the bridge going to Haughton. A lot of people come from the other side to walk this side. I

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think quite frankly the cresty bit just before you go through the narrow walkway would be a lovely place to have a bin for the people that are coming off. We often hang our bags on the tree, walk around and then back.

INT: I saw one hanging on the tree the other night actually. I wondered what it was. MsX: Well you can forget it, you have to remember the next day when you go back to remove the

bag. INT: Now I know what it is. MsX: It’s because there are no dog bins. MrX: It’s better than carrying it all the way round with you and you can just pick it up on the way

back. MsX: I don’t want to carry it around with me. A big dog bin, not these silly little bins. Oh they

have some lovely big dog bins. MrX: Wheely bins. MsX: Not wheely bins they are dog bins. They are big cast iron bins. INT: OK so you think the project has been fairly successful. MsX: Yes I think so. INT: As far as you are concerned, what would you say has been the most important aspect or the

most important thing as far as success? MsX: The flowers and the birds and the trees eventually. INT: Do you know whether other people you have spoken to you can think of other things they are

pleased with? MsX: I think with most people it is the birds. They are most noticeable and the odd flower, people

say look at that one if they haven’t seen it before, although it may be only one. INT: If I was to say to you what has been the most important benefit to you on what has been done

down there, what would you say? MsX: The birds, the flowers and the fish. We have fish in the river, hence ?????? MrX: One of the original plans was to have birds nesting and swans and things. The original plan

was to put an island in and they scrapped that. MsX: That is a great shame. MrX: There is a family of geese that spend their time there. They have had to go off to nest

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because they can’t nest on the bank. INT: I think there was some fear that if some swans and other birds nested on the island that

vandals would get to them and destroy the nests and things. I don’t know whether that’s true. MsX: Well it doesn’t matter where they nest you have got the same problem wherever they go. MrX: There’s less chance on the island. INT: Yes that’s true. Do you think it has been important for local recreation in the area? MsX: Yes more people go down there, more parents and more children go down there. The little

ones because they can take their cycles down on the path because it is safe, as long as there aren’t any motorbikes about.

MrX: Horses as well. They use it as a gallop. There is a stable further up. INT: I thought it looked a bit churned up. MsX: Do the horses belong to the riding stables. MrX: No I don’t think so. It was difficult to understand the conversation for a short while. INT: Can you remember back when you heard they were going to do the project, can you

remember what you expectations of how it was going to be were? Did you have a particular idea of what it was going to be like?

MsX: Well only from the plans we saw at County Hall and the only opinion was absolute horror at

the amount it cost. MrX: And the fact that they haven’t now finished it. I mean they said the bridge would be there,

they paid out some exorbitant price for people to come up with the designs for it and let everybody down, we are not having it now.

INT: Yes they are having a bridge now. What happened was they applied for some extra lottery

money to build the bridge and they didn’t get it, they just heard before Christmas that they didn’t get it.

MsX: We heard that Cleveland Bridge engineering a local firm had offered to do it free. I don’t

know how true that is, but if they did what a waste of money. INT: I don’t know about that. I did interview someone that works at Cleveland the other night

and he said why didn’t they ask us. As far as I know they are going for a cheaper bridge now which will be in, well they have got to wait for the better weather to come.

MrX: The only thing they should do on the bridge is design it so that the motorbikes can’t get onto

it. As soon as they put the bridge there it is going to become a racetrack. I know that by

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the fact that the bikes go up this side, go across the bridge and roar down the other side. If there was a connecting bridge they would be round and round.

MsX: If you make it accessible to wheelchairs which you must do, then obviously it’s accessible to

bikes. That’s up to the local police to control. Or the bikes at the moment are coming through where the fencing is broken from the trading estate over there, so the fencing should be mended so they can’t get through that way.

INT: Presumably they will just come in another way. MrX: They designed it so they can’t get through. MsX: No,. MrX: Yes, the trees go around, the fence goes around and then there’s a gap so they can get into

that estate. MsX: It was a wire fence on concrete posts and they have pulled that down to go straight through

between the two lines of trees. INT: You said you saw the plans so you had some idea of what it was going to end up looking like.

How does it compare now that it has been done with how you thought it was going to look? MsX: I don’t think it looks as attractive. INT: It doesn’t? MrX: One of the main reasons for that is they didn’t take the dirt away, they made mounds out of it. MsX: That just adds interest, that was the contour. INT: You said that they didn’t take the dirt away. Did they take it away eventually? MsX: No that’s the contours. INT: Oh that’s right. MrX: The original designs show that as being flat with trees down either side. MsX: That was to screen the factories I believe, well let’s face it ????????? it is not a nice place to

walk along where we used to before. If we wanted a quick walk after dusk we used to go up there and out at Williams but now.

MrX: Can you imagine the rain comes from the top field, it goes on there and it is channelled. INT: So it’s not as attractive as you had hoped it would be. Would you say that the river plays a

particular part in your life at all? MsX: I wouldn’t think so no.

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INT: What about in the life of the local community generally around here, do you think the river

plays an important part in their lives? MsX: It is somewhere to walk, and it is somewhere that children can run and somewhere that

children can play football. MrX: They had planned to have canoeing on it as well but that backfired. When the plans first

came out locals suggested that they put picnic tables and things there. That was all scrapped. MsX: Oh yes but only because there were problems with drink and teenagers over there that they

didn’t want to make it easy. INT: Do you think the river is important in the local landscape though? MrX: I think it is important yes. MsX: It has got to be, even if only for draining water. INT: Do you think that how the local people use the river was taken into consideration when they

were designing it? MsX: Well a lot of people don’t use the river. They don’t fish there, they don’t swim there, the

river is just literally to look at. MrX: They didn’t take people’s views or suggestions at all. INT: They didn’t? MrX: They put those backwaters in. They put one in and it drained so it went back into the river.

The other one they put in all it does is rush back so the river just flows straight past it. MsX: You know where they were going to make an island well they haven’t they have made a

backwater and it’s that one. MrX: If anything it is more dangerous because it is stagnant. MsX: It gets really smelly in the summer. MrX: They did one but not the other one. INT: So you don’t think they really took into account what people’s views were do you think? MrX: When I lived in London I lived on the xxxxxx, they cut that and made a section of that into a

backwater. You used to get old bikes, pushchairs, prams, chairs even dead animals. When they did this backwater there this is the sort of thing that does happen. It stinks.

INT: Do you think it is important when people are designing projects like this that they take into

account the way the river is used or visited by the local community?

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MsX: Yes I think that it is important. INT: I don’t know how involved you were with the consultation for the project, apart from the

interviews before that you have had, were you involved in any other way, did you participate in any of the meetings or anything like that?

MsX: No, now where were we when the meetings were held, we were away I think. INT: Did you go to the exhibition? MsX: Yes we went to the exhibition, I think there was a choice of three. MrX: Our points were raised by people that went to the meeting. We are speaking to people on the

fields every day, we go over twice a day and we knew that the points we had other people had the same points.

INT: What were they concerned about? MsX: Draining the land to start with, everything is so boggy. INT: Was that the only thing or were there other things? MsX: That was the main one wasn’t it. MrX: The backwaters, the bridge, everything that we have said the other people had the same view. MsX: That was when it was decided not to put up any tables, so that one was followed through. MrX: What I could never understand, is that they put the river there, but there was a pond that used

to be teaming with life, frogs and newts and all sorts of things. They drained that pond. I couldn’t understand why they drained that and no-one has given me an answer.

MsX: That’s where one of the bad flooding areas is. INT: What part of the river is that? MsX: Right down the far end, going around the bend at the bottom towards Five Arches, where the

island should have been, opposite there on the left hand side. That’s the worse flooding area. MrX: There was a natural pond there that used to take all the water from the hills and that and it

was there all year. No-one used to bother the pond it was full of all sorts of different things. INT: I don’t know the answer to that. MsX: It’s a glue sniffers paradise that little corner. INT: How do you feel about what happened with the consultation then, would you say that you

weren’t satisfied with the consultation?

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MrX: Well it’s like all consultations, they agree with you at the time and then go their own way. MsX: Well you have got to realise that a lot of people are consulted and some opinions might not be

the opinion of the majority of the people in the area which may be entirely different from those people that regularly go down on the river.

INT: We did interview quite a wide area. MsX: I know somebody that used to say that they couldn’t go down there because their partner was

disabled. To my knowledge they have never been down there. INT: Most people that I have spoken to have said that a second bridge is a good idea and they are

looking forward to it. MrX: They reckon the ford, as they call it, have put it into oxygenated water but I assume they

wanted it to be better arranged so the water could flow over and all it did in the dry weather was stop the water and in the bad weather there is nothing there anyway. The only people that used it were horse riders.

MsX: No the children love to play in the water in the summer. Fully clothed or not. Mum must

be thrilled to bits when they come home, wet shoes. MrX: Well the bank is there and the pool is across, the only way is to slide down the bank. Really

you can’t use the pool if you wanted to use it because you can’t really get down to it. MsX: It was just there really to oxygenate the water wasn’t it? INT: I don’t know. MsX: Which to a certain degree would work. I don’t know if it would work the length of the river.

It would only work for a little while. INT: I am not too sure to be honest. MsX: But the children loved it. MrX: Another thing about the river was that the idea was to stop all the stuff coming in from the

factories and things. They didn’t stop it they just hid it. INT: Really? MrX: If you go down towards Five Arches where the path picks up coming down from the other

side, you can stand there and see it bubbling up in the middle of the river. All they have done is put it into the middle of the river so that it mixes with the water straight away.

MsX: That last bit is so unattractive. It used to be really lovely. There used to be loads of rabbits

there. Now there aren’t any rabbits there. They probably killed them because they didn’t want them there and I think that’s a shame. We saw no rabbits at all last year. There were

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lots down there. They have left a pile of earth down there that is now covered in weeds, they let the weeds on the bank grow so high down on that part. They only cut the grass once in the summer down on that bottom end. It’s just ugly, like a dump. That’s where they want the new bridge to go.

INT: Right. OK. Would you say you would consider the consultation to have been a success or

not? MsX: Difficult question to ask because you don’t know other people’s answers. You say most of

the people you have spoken to would like to have a bridge. Most people I have spoken to don’t want the bridge.

INT: It’s not that they haven’t mentioned some of the concerns you have mentioned. MsX: They don’t want the bridge because they don’t want the motorbikes coming round. MrX: We would have liked the bridge because we don’t want it because we know what is going to

happen to it. MsX: I can see somebody getting hurt. INT: To what extent do you think that local people need to be involved and consulted in this type

of project? MsX: Obviously they need to be consulted. MrX: Not consulted but taken notice of. There’s a big difference between consulting someone and

taking notice of what they are saying. Consult just means that you tell each other what’s going on. It doesn’t mean to say that you have got to take any notice of them.

MsX: I can see it is far more attractive than it was, and I know that if the money hadn’t come to

Darlington it would have gone somewhere else. It just seems a crying shame that all that money had to be spent on something like that when there are many other important things. When you have people in their homes without food and some organisation is spending money like that.

MrX: There was nothing wrong with the river before. It was straight, but all it needed was

cleaning and dredging every now and again which they were doing. The wildlife down there was fantastic and it’s gradually coming back. You are getting geese over there now, so obviously some of the grass that has been put there is the right stuff.

MsX: They come right out into the field the other side. They have chosen to go out that side more

than this side now. MrX: We have lost our kingfishers. MsX: No the kingfishers are still there. MrX: There are crested ducks up there now.

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INT: So there’s more variety? MrX: Yes it is picking up give it a few more years. INT: Do you think of the river as belonging to the local community, as being local property at all

or not? MsX: Yes of course. If you didn’t you wouldn’t care anything about it. MrX: What I wouldn’t like to see, there was a suggestion that the fish are coming back in, I

wouldn’t like to see now them giving out fishing rights to it. When you get that there will be squabbles all over the place with people walking dog down there while people are fishing, weights being eaten by the swans and that.

MsX: Oh you couldn’t do that with the wildlife down there. MrX: If you get enough fish in there the fishing fraternity will start moving to be able to fish down

there. INT: Do you feel involved with the river in any sense? MsX: Not really. MrX: How do you mean involved? INT: I think some of the people I have spoken to feel that it is very much a part of their lives going

back from childhood when they could paddle in the river and things. MsX: We have only been here for 5 years. INT: Right, for some people they have very strong links and they go down there a lot. One of the

things that the river restoration people said they wanted to do with the project was to restore the river to a more natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe to me how you would describe a natural river, what would you say to me? How would you describe a natural river?

MsX: Well a natural river does meander a little bit, probably not as much as that one. It does need

trees along it, a lot more trees than there are. Big trees go with a riverbank. MrX: It’s an open river, even with the few trees that they have planted, there’s a lot of open river.

If you go into the country and go alongside the river, the one thing you don’t see is stretches of it with nothing.

MsX: The only time you would see it is on a marsh or something like that. MrX: Which is just right for over there. INT: So the meanders and trees. Any other features that you would associate with a natural river?

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MsX: It would depend where the river was, you can’t answer that. MrX: Natural where we lived before had rocks in it, but that would be natural there, a rocky beach. MsX: But that wouldn’t be right here. MrX: It had a waterfall. MsX: This reminds me more of a canal type river. MrX: That’s right and that’s what they tried to get rid of when they altered it. MsX: Yes but it still is a canal type river. I think more trees. MrX: More wild growth I would say, bushes and trees. INT: Do you think it is feasible to talk about restoring a river back to its natural state would you

say? MsX: Why not, it is only learning from somebody else’s mistakes. We restore houses to what they

looked like originally. INT: Do you think it is possible in an area like this, an urban area? MsX: Of course it is. INT: Can you think of anything that might stop the river being restored? Are there any

constraints? MsX: Only the lack of money. I can’t think of anything else. MrX: If it wanders through somebody’s property then maybe yes. INT: You would need permission. MrX: The council would say no I am not giving up a tenth of my land. MsX: Well let’s face it we’d probably feel the same if it was part of out field. INT: You just said you thought the river looked natural before they did it, do you think it looks

more natural now, less natural or just the same? MsX: No it is getting better, now the banks are being covered. MrX: When was it actually straightened out. INT: I can’t find out, I have asked so many people and no-one seems to know.

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MsX: It was probably straightened out to stop the flooding somebody told me going onto the Haughton Road. The Church of England school used to get flooded regularly next to the church.

MrX: More to do with industrialisation I should think, so you are talking about 100 years. So

that’s when it started to look natural. MsX: It is going to get covered in rape again. MrX: Why. MsX: Because they didn’t trim it at all. INT: Compared to other rivers that you may visit, how natural do you think this one looks now? MsX: Not very still. It is getting better. MrX: We are talking about…. MsX: I was talking about the Stour and the …..??????? INT: I did a project at Hengistbury Head once. MsX: It takes a few years for the scars to heal. Come and ask me in 15 years time when the trees

have grown and the bushes have grown. INT: A lot of people say that we have tamed the river here, do you think that most other rivers in

the country have been tamed and controlled? MsX: I wouldn’t know. MrX: The only one we have recent knowledge of I would say no. MsX: Well the Winston [?] is not tamed it is just beautiful. That untamed look only comes over a

period of time. INT: Do you think it matters that we tame rivers and control them like we do? MrX: Well there’s so much other stuff needing to be done. MsX: You have got to to a certain extent but where do you draw the line. MrX: If you think how much it cost to do that I think it could be put to better use somewhere else.

There was nothing wrong with the river, it didn’t need messing about with. MsX: No but it would have only gone to another project the same as here because some little man

sitting in a little office decided where that money was going to go, on rivers. MrX: That’s right, that’s what I am saying. That whole fund should have gone to something else

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more needy. INT: Do you think that controlling rivers or taming rivers like we do makes them less natural or do

you not think it makes a difference? MsX: It depends how they are done. INT: Do you think a river could still look natural even though it was controlled? MsX: Yes. Some of the bigger rivers are controlled with dams, that is control, but it doesn’t look

anything. You couldn’t say it was natural do it just depends. INT: Would you say that you think of the project as being a scientific project here? MsX: Probably. INT: Have you got any idea what sort of knowledge would be needed to do a project like that? MsX: Engineering science, which would cover the actual building of it, scientists or naturalists or

somebody that knew about plantlife, wildlife. MrX: One thing they did to which was something we never had when the river was straight, what

fish we did have in there survived. MsX: They have died off a couple of times. MrX: Oh yes just before Christmas they were picking dead fish out. INT: Have they actually stocked the river with fish? MrX: No. INT: So engineering, science, knowledge of plants. MsX: The sciences would cover a multitude of sins. INT: To what extent would you say that the river restoration project people know how to restore

rivers? MsX: They haven’t done too badly have they. INT: Do you think they have the necessary knowledge then to enable them to do it? MrX: They probably have but whether they have been allowed to use it is another thing. MsX: They have been back once over the deflectors. But then local conditions are different.

Their learning will tell them. They’re learning ... MrX: It’s like most things. If they listen to the man that actually does the work in the first place it

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will probably be done right. If you have someone sitting in an office with a pen in his hand drawing, there was a bloke sitting in an office who drew up and said this area we are going to do such and such because it floods. We are going to do this in that area because it doesn’t flood. To be quite honest he ????????? The blokes on the site knew this and told him but they still had to do it his way.

MsX: When we saw those great big JCBs …… MrX: The river side just collapsed because the area he said would never flood is the only place that

really flooded. If you leave it to the man on the job then yes. MsX: It hasn’t flooded as much as I thought it would have. MrX: Well no because they have rebuilt all that wall and the drainage things on top of it. MsX: It hasn’t flooded as much as it would have in the old conditions. Yes they are learning. INT: Would you say that you trusted them to do the project and to take care of the river? MsX: You can’t do anything else can you, you have got to. INT: Do you think that there’s still a lot that needs to be learnt about restoring rivers? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you have any idea what you think might still need to be learnt or investigated? MsX: You can’t ... MrX: How to keep the fish alive when you do the river. MsX: Every river is different, so what will work on this river won’t work on another river. INT: Did you realise that this was a demonstration project? MrX: Yes. MsX: I am sure they have learnt an awful lot. MrX: Have they learnt not to open the gates up at the sewage place when the river floods? INT: I have no idea. MrX: Sometimes you walk down there and it stinks. MsX: Oh yes I remember that happening. That’s what we decided had happened. MrX: Having worked in one I know the smell. They said they would do it when the river really

floods and it is fast flowing they will let a few thousand gallons out that way.

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INT: They haven’t done it in the last few years ago then? MrX: Since before they did the river actually. Oh no it happened once since, and that order must

come from the council. MsX: Well I am a little bit cynical about council’s I am afraid. INT: I think most of must of us have a healthy cynicism towards them. MrX: No-one in their right mind would do it on their own backs. MsX: It could have been an accident. INT: Well thank’s very much anyway. END OF TAPE

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 16 – 14TH JANUARY 1998 INT: Have you been down to the river since they have finished the scheme? MsX: Yes. Usually in the lighter nights I go each night with the dog. INT: So you know what has sort of gone on down there and what has happened. Can I start by

asking whether you think the scheme has been a success in any way, and if so why you think it has or hasn’t been?

MsX: Well yes I think it has at the moment. INT: Any particular reason why you think it has been successful? MsX: Well it looks a lot better for a start. INT: Yes it looks better. Is there anything else you can think of? MsX: I like the swans. INT: Do you think that perhaps it has been successful for wildlife or not? MsX: Yes. INT: What about for people visiting the river or walking along the river? MsX: Well as I say I only go in the summer months and that and there’s always a lot of people

along there when I go and children playing football. INT: Do you think it has encouraged more people to go down there? MsX: I would say so yes. INT: What would you see as being the most important success of the project as far as you are

concerned? MsX: Well the wildlife definitely. INT: That would be the most important thing to you? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you see that as being the most important benefit for you, having more wildlife down there

or the fact that it looks better or any other reason? MsX: Well both really. The wildlife and the look of it. INT: Do you think any other people would get any other benefits from what has been done down

there, apart from yourself are there any other people in the area?

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MsX: Well if you had children and that it would be ideal. Not a lot of people have gardens where

they can really play, where down there they could and it’s a nice outlook. INT: That’s true. MsX: Even my mum says, she’s in xxxxxx. She lives more or less across the road and she can go

for a stroll along the river and she says it is such a nice outlook. INT: So for people living very near it’s a benefit? MsX: Yes. INT: Can you remember when you first heard that they were going to do something down there,

did you have a particular idea of what it was going to be like? Did you have any particular expectations of what it would be like afterwards?

MsX: No the only bit I saw was when they had the planting up in that board at the bottom there. INT: Right so you saw that, but you didn’t have a picture in your mind about what it would look

like or anything like that? MsX: No. INT: I was going to say how does it compare now with how you imagined it to be, whether it was

better or worse or whatever, but you didn’t really have a picture in mind? MsX: No I didn’t really picture it. INT: You were interviewed last year, where you interviewed two years previous to that in 1994? MsX: Yes this is my third one. INT: I think in the first one people were told roughly what was going to be done weren’t they? MsX: Yes. INT: But you didn’t have any particular ideas then what it would be like? MsX: No. INT: Would you say that the river plays any part in your life at all? Or how much of a part does it

play in your life, if any? MsX: It doesn’t really because I don’t like to go too near. I am petrified of water. INT: Really. MsX: When I walk over the bridge at the bottom I have just got to look straight ahead, I can’t walk

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and look over because I feel as though the water is drawing me over. I can’t stand right at the edge and look down at the river. I can from further back but if I feel I am too near the edge I think I am going to ….

INT: I think you must be the lady, I was talking to someone the other night and she said there was

a lady that walks along there who felt just like that, it was probably you she was talking about. I know what you mean, I am like that with cliffs or something. I can’t go too close because I feel that I want to look over the edge.

MsX: Yes I am the same with cliffs. I won’t even get hold of the railings because I think if that

railing comes loose. As I say I look but I stand back and look where I know I am safe. INT: Would you say that the river plays much of a part in the lives of the local community around

here generally? MsX: Well yes I would say so. INT: Do you think it is quite well used by people? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you think the river plays an important part in the local landscape around here? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you know whether the way the river is used by local people, do you know whether that

was taken into consideration when the people were planning the project? MsX: I couldn’t say really. INT: You don’t know Do you think it is important that sort of thing should be taken into account

when projects like this are being designed and being planned? MsX: Yes. INT: Would you say that you look upon the river as belonging to the local community around here,

being local property if you like? MsX: Well yes, the Skerne is Darlington isn’t it? No matter where you go really you see the

Skerne. INT: Do you think the local people are quite proud of the river area now that it has been restored? MsX: I would say so, apart from the wet with all this rain. INT: It’s flowing very fast at the moment I notice. MsX: It’s very dirty, but that’s to do with the weather.

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INT: Do you think other people around here feel the same way as you, that the river belongs to the community in a way?

MsX: Yes I would think so. INT: Would you say that you felt involved in any way with the river or not? MsX: No I wouldn’t say so. INT: You say you don’t feel involved with the river in any particular way apart from just walking

down it. Do you think that there are other people or groups of people in the area that might feel more involved? Do you know of any other particular groups that use the river for anything?

MsX: No, but I think the schools would benefit from using it, because there are two schools on the

doorstep, plus the nursery at Springfields. In fact there are three schools really because Red Hall would benefit from their end.

INT: I think Red Hall have been down there but I don’t know about the others. So schools

certainly yes. Do people fish down there? MsX: I have seen children with their little canes with the net on the end. INT: Apart from the other two interviews, were you involved with the consultation for the project

at all? MsX: No not at all. INT: Did you know that there were public meetings and there was an exhibition in the library

about the project? MsX: Yes but I wasn’t able to attend any of them. INT: Right but you did know about them. MsX: I do childminding and it depends what time the children go home as to when I can to my

housework and your time’s not your own really. INT: Do you know whether other local people around here were involved with the consultation?

Did they participate or have any input into what was planned or anything? MsX: I couldn’t say. INT: Could you think of any ways in which perhaps you could have been more involved if you had

wanted to be? MsX: I don’t think so, I can’t think of anything different to what they did do. INT: If the meetings and things had been timed more conveniently for you, would you perhaps

5

have thought of going along do you think? MsX: Yes. INT: You would have done. How much do you think local people in the area should be involved

or should be consulted about projects like this? MsX: Well they should be able to put their point of view of what they would like, whether it is

taken up is another thing. I presume it would be that if somebody suggested something and it was suggested quite a few times they would take that into consideration, so you can put your point of view over.

INT: Have you got any idea whether they would have been taken into consideration? MsX: No I have no idea. If quite a few people suggested the same sort of thing I think there might

have been. But if one person’s is going to suggest it they are not going to do it just because she wants it.

INT: How satisfied were you personally with the consultation for the project? Were you quite

satisfied with it or do you feel it could have been improved in some way? MsX: Well for all the consultation I had I was satisfied. INT: You couldn’t think of any ways you would have liked it to have been done differently or

better or anything? MsX: Well the only thing I would have like to have seen done is where they have got the path on

that side, I would have liked to have seen one on this side, which is the side I walk up on. It’s OK while it is fine but when it’s wet. I would have liked to have seen the river banks sealed off at the bottom to stop the younger ones going underneath.

INT: Are they still doing that? MsX: Well the last I heard yes. The path that leads down from the bridge to the main road, that is

full of potholes. It is very bad and I would have liked to have seen that done. The path they did from the bottom of Hutton Avenue down to the bridge I quite like that because they have roughed it so that if it is slippery it is a better surface to walk on.

INT: So you would like to have see the same type of footpaths as the new one on the other side. MsX: Yes. INT: How do you feel about the new footbridge that is going to be put in up towards Five Arches. MsX: I haven’t been that far up yet, but I should imagine it would be quite good. INT: It’s not due to go in for another few months until the weather is a bit better. MsX: Well it’s very swampy now.

6

INT: The idea is that people will be able to do a circular walk then. Do you think you would use

it for that? MsX: Well yes. As I say on the light nights I always take him along the river because you can let

the lead on full and he is running about but not running away type of thing. I would do that little bit extra on my journey and go up on the bridge and go over no that side and when I came home I would come back, so I would be doing more exercise for me and more for the dog.

INT: Would you have any idea whether you thought the consultation had been a success or not for

the project? MsX: Well I think it would have been. INT: Do you think that most people had the opportunity to have an input, even if they didn’t do

anything they had the choice to. MsX: Oh yes if they didn’t well it’s their own fault isn’t it? I have not heard any complaints. INT: One of the things the people who did the project were trying to do was to restore the river to

make it into a more natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, how would you describe a natural river? What sort of things would you expect to find or see with a natural river?

MsX: Well I would say where it twists and winds for a start. The reeds and what have you along

the sides and seagulls perching themselves on it. INT: Anything else you would expect to find on a natural river? MsX: Apart from when the vandals get going. There was somebody’s cycle helmet in there the

other week. I don’t think there was a body under it because the river was too low then and I think I would have seen the body.

INT: Do you think it is possible to talk about or to restore a river to it’s natural state today

particularly one like the Skerne? MsX: Well I should think so. They say nothing’s impossible don’t they? INT: Could you think of any particular things that might make it not possible to do? MsX: No I don’t think so. I like the little island they have put in. INT: Do you think it is a good idea to do what they have done here to try and restore parts of rivers

like that? MsX: Yes I do. INT: Before they did the project here, how natural do you think the river looked?

7

MsX: Well it was the way I had always seen it, so it was as natural as it could be to me, I hadn’t

seen it any different. INT: In comparison to what it is like now, do you think it looks more natural now or did it look

more natural before? MsX: It’s more natural now. INT: Compared to other rivers that you may have visited, how does it compare now with those

other rivers? Would you say you could compare it on par with other natural rivers or do you think it doesn’t look as natural?

MsX: I think ours looks better. INT: Do you think so? MsX: Yes. INT: A lot of people say that we have controlled our rivers these days, that we have sort of tamed

them. Do you think that’s true? MsX: Well in some cases yes. INT: Why do you think they may have been controlled? MsX: Well if they were getting a bit wild they have sort of put damns across. INT: Did you know the river had been channelised here before, it was a channelised river before

the project? Did you know that it had been changed before? MsX: Yes I can’t quite remember. My mother was talking about Haughton Road itself. It used to

go across where ???? is. I can’t quite remember that myself but I know it had been altered there.

INT: I don’t know when it was? MsX: Well we came over here when I was x years old and I am x now, so it’s a long while back. It

would have been in the time we have been over here for my mother to remember it because she came from xxxxxx, but as to when it happened I can’t remember. I can’t even remember what it was like before then.

INT: OK. Do you think it matters that we modify rivers and we control them like that? Do you

think it is necessary? MsX: Well yes in a way, because if they were left just to run themselves in time the banks will go

and they will either get wider or wilder or whatever. They do need attention at times. INT: Do you think that by controlling a river like that we make it more or less natural than before?

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MsX: I think this one has been made more natural. INT: So in this case you think it has been made more natural? MsX: Yes. INT: Generally looking at other rivers that have been modified and things that you may have seen,

do you also think that they look more natural or are they less natural? MsX: Well I couldn’t really say because I have never really taken much notice of other rivers. INT: OK. Do you think then that it is possible for a river to still look natural and yet be controlled

at the same time? MsX: Yes I would think so. INT: Which really I suppose is what the Skerne is now? MsX: Yes. INT: Do you think that the restoration project is scientific? Is it a scientific project at all? MsX: Well in a way yes because you have got to know about the plants and that and the wildlife,

how they reproduce and everything. INT: Would you have any idea of what other type of knowledge and what scientific knowledge

would be needed to do a project like this? You mentioned that you would need to know about the plants and the wildlife what sort of ecology. Can you think of anything else you might need to know?

MsX: Well they would have to take into consideration the ground around about and stability for one

thing of the riverbanks themselves and things like that. INT: What about the actual river itself. What do you think they might need to know about that? MsX: Well any way that pollution could get in for a start. It’s not that long ago there was some

pollution wasn’t there. INT: That was further up wasn’t it? MsX: I know they fastened up down the bottom here to try and stop is going through. INT: Did they manage to do that? MsX: I think they managed pretty well yes. INT: So you can’t think of anything else that people would need to know to carry out a project like

this?

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MsX: Not that I can think of no. INT: To what extent do you think the river restoration people know how to restore rivers? MsX: Well I think they did a good job with this one. INT: Do you think they have all the necessary knowledge that’s needed to do a job like this? MsX: Well in my opinion yes. INT: Would you say then that you trusted them to know what they were doing and to do the best

for the river? MsX: Yes. INT: Would you have any idea of anything else that needs to be learnt or investigated about doing

a project like this? MsX: No I don’t think so. The only thing is where it came over but that was the weather really you

couldn’t do anything about that. It used to come over where the little school was at the bottom, where they are doing the cottages. I don’t think they are actually going to build on there I just think they are going to landscape it.

INT: Which part is that then? MsX: Just before you come to the church on Haughton Road. They are building just around here

and it’s just at the back of it where it comes out on the Horton Road. I used to go the school that was there, Little Haughton they called it, and the playground used to flood like mad. When they started building down there I thought I don’t think I would like to buy one of those. It might never happen but you just don’t know. But I have heard they are just going to landscape that bit.

INT: Actually I past that coming up in the taxi and I saw that they were building there, but that bit

had been left at the bottom. MsX: If they did build on it I think they would have to heighten it before doing it. I think they are

not building on it because it is something to do with the church itself. It’s church land or something.

INT: There’s a graveyard there as well isn’t there? MsX: Yes. INT: It’s not part of the graveyard though is it? MsX: No but I think the land is to do with the church. It’s only what I have heard I don’t know

how right it is. I know we used to come home from school because all the yard was flooded because it dips down.

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INT: Did that happen often? MsX: It used to be every winter. We had a whole load of snow then and it thawed and the river

came over. The winters aren’t the same now are they? INT: No. Has the river been right up since they did the project do you know? MsX: Well this year definitely it has been right over. INT: Has it been over the banks? MsX: Yes, along Riverside. I haven’t walked along there because I knew it would be really

swampy and when I have gone over the bridge you can see all the water just laying on the top. I would say that is due to all the rain.

INT: It hasn’t been up near the houses in Riverside Way? MsX: No and I don’t think it would actually get up there because it is flat and then it goes up a bit,

so I think that bit would stop it. Plus it would have to go across the road to get to the houses because they are only on the one side. I don’t think there would be any danger there.

INT: Going back to this thing about the footpath, you would like to see another footpath on the

other side. How important to you would that be having another footpath there? MsX: Well it would be very important really, because just as many people walk on that side as do

on this I would say. Especially for my benefit if it has been raining and I walk along there it’s muddy, so I’m up to my eyes in mud, the dog is up to his eyes in mud, where a path you would just have the wet and that’s it. It would be far better. At the moment there is a track across it where people have walked. If it went muddy and they started walking further over on the grass there’s going to be another track and then it will be churned up. If there is a path people would keep to it.

INT: How do you think it looks with that new path along the other side? Do you think it looks

good or do you think it detracts from the river looking nice having that path there? MsX: No I think it’s OK. INT: Do you think it would still look all right if there was another one on the other side? MsX: Yes I think so. INT: Well that’s about it. MsX: They should put a few picnic tables up there for the little ones. INT: Do you think it would be a good idea to have something like that? MsX: Yes. I know if you are a bit longer you can take a rug and sit down on the grass, but the

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older generation like my mother, which could be a good thing. Where me mum is in xxxxxx that’s all for old folk and I think they would appreciate a seat of some sort.

INT: So some seats or something along the river. MsX: Yes not a lot of them could do a lot of walking. Whereas if they walk down and are able to

sit they could have a rest and watch the children playing or the wildlife and that and then walk back up again. It would help them a lot.

INT: So you think it would be important to have more amenities like that for people visiting the

river? MsX: Yes. INT: OK. I don’t know if there are any plans to do anything like that but I can raise it. MsX: If it was me then I could get down and sit on a rug, but the older people can’t or if they do

they can’t get back up. I know if my mum is doing a job on the floor she is stuck if nobody is in.

INT: Have you seen more wildlife down there do you think since the project was done? MsX: Yes. They shout when I go over the bridge and shout when I come back, they want feeding.

I open my loaf of bread .... INT: You have to get used to that now don’t you. MsX: In fact one time one of the moorhens was out here. I was quite surprised. It was before they

even started altering the river. I kept seeing this bird in the garden and realised it was a moorhen and it must have lost it’s way from the river. We left it and it disappeared. This was a couple of years ago. It used to come because I took my bits of bread and biscuits and things out there and the birds have a bean feast and it used to come out and have a feast with the birds.

INT: I noticed that there were loads of canada geese there the other day. MsX: Now I like it when you see the geese going off. We sit and watch them flying over. In fact

we have a video of my nephew’s wedding and the person that took the video caught the geese going over.

INT: Really. The swans don’t seem to be there now. I don’t know where they have gone. MsX: Well I couldn’t say because in this bad weather I haven’t been going along. When the

weather picks up I will. INT: I only went down briefly the other day. I will have time to go down today. MsX: I don’t like going along there in the dark. I know there are houses there but ...

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INT: Well not on the other side it’s not very nice is it. Is there anything else you would like to say about the project at all.

MsX: No I don’t think so. INT: No other concerns you might have or anything. MsX: No. INT: Well thank you very much for your time. END OF TAPE.

SKERNE INTERVIEW 17 – 14TH JANUARY 1998 INT: I hope it won’t take too long, it depends on what you have got to say. MsX: I haven’t got all that much time I start work at 5 o clock. INT: I haven’t either I have got to get the train back to London. Can I start then by asking you,

some of these questions you may not be able to answer if you haven’t been down there, but can I start by asking you whether you think the project as a whole has been a success or not, and if so why do you think it has or why it hasn’t?

MsX: Have they actually finished it then? INT: They have finished all the major work yes. MsX: I don’t think I have noticed a lot of difference. Obviously I haven’t been down there, but

maybe in the summer you will notice it a bit more because you will get the shrubs coming out. To me it just looks like a load of dirty mud on the banks. Obviously the weather has made the river swell a bit. I can’t see any benefits for or against it really.

INT: Right OK. So you have no real opinion on whether it has been successful or not. Have you

got any idea whether you think it has improved the recreation opportunities for people along by the river?

MsX: Do you mean jobwise. INT: No people being able to go out and walk and things. MsX: Yes because it looks a lot nicer. I know a lot of people do walk their dogs and bike ride

along there. INT: Have you got any idea how it may have affected wildlife around the area? MsX: I would imagine it would have disturbed them with the digging, especially when they

changed the bends in the river. If there were any fish in there, I don’t know whether they would have swam back downstream or whether they will come back, it’s just open for them.

INT: I don’t know if you have heard people mention anything about the wildlife down there? MsX: I have never heard anybody talk about it. You get the ducks going along there, I still think

they are there. INT: Can you think of any particular benefits for you or for other people around here that has come

out of the project? MsX: Well it looks a lot nicer. I don’t know if they have actually put any seating in down there but

it would be nice to be able to have a rest and sit down there and feed the ducks or whatever, without straying too far. We walk up to South Park you see where the river goes through there. There’s a pond area and a lot of ducks and swans there.

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INT: There have been lots of geese down there recently, some people say they have never seen

those there before. OK the benefits are that it looks nicer and that sort of thing. Can you remember when you were interviewed the first time and they showed you the plans of what it was going to be like, did you have any particular expectations of what it would be like when it was done? Did you have a picture in your mind of what it would be like?

MsX: Yes I think so. Something like a public park type of area, maybe with some swings and

things. I don’t know whether you are actually going to ask me a question on it, but the only disadvantage to it all has been the small children down there. If there is a lot of shrubbery you get these strange people hanging around. That’s the only thing I have got against it. You should have open spaces but open spaces do not always look really nice.

INT: You are not the first person that has raised that actually. So you imagined it would be a bit

like a public park, how does that compare then with what you expected it to look like to how it actually does look now that it has been done?

MsX: Well now as I say it just looks like a mud path. There’s a load of mud at the moment.

That’s is because of all the wet weather we have had and the time of year. I can see the shape of the river. As regards to the grass and everything I think that looks nice.

INT: Would you say at the moment that it doesn’t look as good as you thought it would? MsX: No. I think to look at it now I can’t see that they have done anything to it. I would ask if

they had actually done something down there. INT: Would you say that the river plays any particular part in your life at all? MsX: No not really. It’s nice to see and I like to walk down there, I like walking by the water, but

there are places that I haven’t been to along the river, so I don’t know. INT: You don’t think about it at all? MsX: Oh no. I was going to say it is a very polluted river area, you get all the smells off it, so it is

important that it is kept clean. INT: Do you think the river plays a part in the life of the local community generally around here? MsX: I don’t know. We have a lot of old people around here. Lot’s of people go down there

with their dogs. INT: Do you think it is an important part of the local landscape? MsX: No I don’t think so. INT: Have you got any idea when they were planning and designing the project, whether they took

into account how local people use the river when they were designing what they were going to do? Do you know whether they took that into consideration?

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MsX: I don’t know whether we were asked in that very first interview about things like that. I don’t know if they said they were going to do something to the river how do you feel about it? I can’t remember if she asked questions like that. We didn’t actually have a door to door person come around at the time. I can’t remember really it was too long ago.

INT: It was getting on for 3 years by that time. MsX: If we did get anything then I never went to any public meetings. INT: That was my next question. I was going to say did you go, because there were at least one or

two public meetings. MsX: I didn’t go. INT: You didn’t get to any of those. There was an exhibition in the library itself. Those were the

main ones. Some houses were leafleted and I am not sure whether they came up as far as this. Certainly the ones right by the river would have been. So you haven’t been involved in any consultation apart from the interviews?

MsX: That’s right yes. INT: Would you think of that as consultation the two interviews you have had or not necessarily? MsX: No because I am not that close to it. I think if I had got a leaflet I don’t think I would have

gone, because I am quite close but not close enough to feel that I need to be involved. If you are looking out onto it and it has been an eyesore you would want something done.

INT: Do you know whether other local people around here were involved, or went to consultation

meetings and things like that? MsX: I don’t know. I have not spoken to anyone. I don’t know anybody that has spoken about it.

When I work I don’t meet as many people. A lot of them tend to keep themselves to themselves around here as well.

INT: Can you think of any other ways in which you and other people perhaps could have been

more involved with the consultation and what was going on? MsX: Well we could have gone to the meetings I suppose and look at the models, did you say that

was at the library. INT: It was an exhibition and a visual display. There were forms which people could fill in with

their comments and things like that. I think they also had some guided walks along the river by people who were going to do the project, telling people what was going to be done. To what extent do you think local people should be consulted and should be able to participate in projects like this?

MsX: I think it is important that people should be consulted if it concerns you. Then you have the

right to choose whether you want to be involved or not. Rather than just doing it and you not knowing.

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INT: Would you say that you consider the consultation here for the project to have been successful,

or do you not really know? MsX: I don’t know. Have you spoken to a lot of people around here? INT: 260. MsX: Has anyone else in this street been interviewed? INT: There certainly were last year, one or two people in this street, but obviously it would have

been taken from all the way around, all the way around the whole stretch. So it goes from people living in North Road and in that area. It has been a fairly wide range of people. You don’t really know whether it has been a success or not?

MsX: I think it is different if there are a couple more people in the same street so you can get and

talk and get to know more information that way. Even just in general to say oh they are doing the river have you been down there. I have never even heard anybody talk like that.

INT: I think it is the dog walkers who use it more. MsX: It is a short cut as well and a lot of people use that. INT: Would you say that you were satisfied with the consultation that you had and with the

opportunities that you had if you wanted to take part? MsX: Oh yes, I would say so. INT: Can you think of any ways that the consultation could have been done better or could have

been improved? MsX: No I don’t think so. INT: Do you consider the river to belong to the local community around here? Is it local property

at all? MsX: No I just see it as the river that flows through Darlington basically. It’s like the town’s river.

I don’t think it is local because everybody has a bit of it. INT: Do you think that other people in the area might think differently? Do you think they might

think it is their property? MsX: I haven’t heard talk like that. I think the dog walkers will feel it is their local patch. INT: Would you say that you felt involved with the river in any way at all? MsX: No. INT: We just mentioned dog walkers there, can you think of any other groups of people that you

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might know of or heard about that would be more involved with what goes on by the river, or any activities in the area?

MsX: You get the kids down there in groups playing as you do. They throw stones in the water

and that sort of thing. You get people that use it as a short cut as well. INT: One of the things that the people that did the project were trying to do was restore the river to

a more natural condition, that was one of their aims. If I was to say to you can you describe to me a natural river, how would you describe it?

MsX: Well I would think it has fish in it, pond type of plants, tadpoles. You get moss and things.

Ducks sitting on the top and those ones that live on the side of the riverbank. I don’t know whether they actually go into the water. There a lot of living life actually in a real pond I would say.

INT: OK so we have got fish, wildlife, plants, anything else you can think of? How would you

imagine a natural river channel to look? MsX: Well definitely not in just two straight lines. ????????????? some meanders. INT: What about trees? MsX: It would be nice to see trees. INT: Anything else. MsX: Well shrubs, and flowers, natural flowers like snowdrops and daffodils to give it a bit of

colour. INT: Right. Do you think it’s feasible to talk about restoring rivers like the Skerne here and other

rivers to a natural condition today or not? MsX: Yes. INT: You think it’s generally possible. MsX:I think so. If it were very polluted it would just obviously kill everything off, even the dogs go

down and drink the water and it would affect them. Some kids play in the rivers, so I think it is vital to everybody that they are kept clean.

INT: Can you think of any constraints in an urban river like the Skerne, of anything that would

stop people being able to restore rivers like that? MsX: Finances, that’s the main one I would say. People objecting. Not enough labour to carry

the work out. INT: Thinking about the river Skerne before they did the project. How natural do you think it

looked then?

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MsX: I think it was just a river and I used to think it always looked dirty you wouldn’t paddle in it. I don’t know how it runs through Darlington, but where I used to sit it was just like that going all the way round.

INT: It was a channelised river. So would you say you didn’t think it looked very natural

before? MsX: No. Near to South Park there is a strip going through. INT: I must go down there and have a look. Compared now to what it was before, how natural do

you think it looks now? MsX: It looks a lot more natural now. INT: I don’t know whether you visit any other rivers at all, I was going to say how natural does the

Skerne look now compared to other places that you visit? MsX: I don’t think it is as much the river as seeing the???? At the moment you can tell it has been

done because of all the mud, it makes it look as though they have been working down there. Once it gets pond life growing round it, it would look to me quite like a natural river. I don’t know whether the Skerne meets any other rivers?

INT: No I am not sure either. MsX: I don’t know where it starts or ends to tell you the truth. You tend to get a lot of ripples, not

like waterfalls just little ripples. There is one that’s further in the town. INT: They have put a few in along here, but the river is too high at the moment and it is completely

covering them. On Monday you could see it, but today I noticed you couldn’t see them at all because the level is high you can’t. A lot of people say that we have tamed the river Skerne here, would you think that is true?

MsX: I don’t know I have not been that close to it. INT: Do you think that is true for rivers generally that we have tamed or we control them? MsX: Well actually putting bends in does control rivers, if it is straight it flows quickly and if you

have bends in it slows it down, so I suppose yes it is true. I remember doing that at school. INT: Do you think that it matters that we do control rivers like that? Do you think we should? MsX: Yes I think so, especially if it does damage anywhere then you need to. INT: Do you think that by controlling rivers the way that we do, that it makes them any less natural

or do you not think it makes any difference, or do you think it makes them more natural? MsX: I think it makes them more natural. A lot of them have bends in and curves that are natural.

The only time it is fast flowing is when it is coming down from the hills. If it comes further down in the lowlands then it tends to slow down.

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INT: So by doing some projects like here we could make it look a little more natural, even though

it is still controlled? Is that what you think? MsX: Yes that’s right. INT: So what you are saying is that a river can still look natural even if it is managed? MsX:Yes that’s right. It is the appearance that gives you the look that it is man made but looks

natural. INT: Would you say that the project here is a scientific project in your opinion? MsX: Do they take samples and things. I would have said it was more agricultural. Are they

testing the soil and water? INT: Yes they have been. MsX: Is that to make the water cleaner? INT: Yes. Have you got any idea what sort of scientific knowledge would be needed to do a

project like that? MsX: Rural science and chemistry I would say. INT: Anything else you can think of. MsX: Well biology as well because there is plant life there. I was just thinking physics but that’s

more to do with electricity and things like that. ??????? INT: How much do you think the river restoration project people know how to restore rivers? MsX: I don’t know. How much do they know, well I presume they know what they are doing or

they wouldn’t be doing it basically. INT: I was going to say do you think they have the necessary knowledge. MsX: Yes I would say so otherwise they would probably make a mess of it or not do a proper job

basically. INT: Would you say that you trusted them to take care of the river? MsX:Yes. INT: Did you know that it was a demonstration project? MsX: I might have been told but I have forgotten. INT: They were really testing various restoration techniques and monitoring and taking samples,

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seeing what the reaction has been and things like that. It’s quite an important project the fact that it hasn’t before on any other sites. Have you got any idea if there is perhaps anything else that might need to be learnt or investigated about restoring rivers?

MsX:No not really because I don’t know a lot about restoring rivers myself. I think you have

definitely got to get the public view on what they think and feel. If they are in agreement to let them know the progress, how things are going.

INT: So you think people should be kept up to date with what’s going on. MsX: Some people would be interested, there are those that do want to know. INT: Have you got any particular views on the new footpath that has been put in? MsX:I have never seen it. INT: It is a fairly wide concrete path along the other side of the river. MsX: So you are not walking on the mud? It would be easier for pushing buggies and pushchairs

and that sort of thing. INT: They are also planning to put in a second footbridge at the other end near Five Arches Bridge,

I don’t know if you remember that? Do you think that is a good idea? MsX: Yes because you see people on the other side but you have got to go all the way back to the

first footbridge to get over there. If there were two ways over it would make it easier. INT: You can’t see any problems that might come out of a new bridge and the footpath being

there. MsX: No. INT: Right I think that’s about it then. With a river like the one here now that has got this

concrete footpath and will later have another bridge, two bridges, , do you think that the river will still be able to look fairly natural with that sort of thing?

MsX: Yes I do. People have put things in natural rivers for people to walk on and it hasn’t actually

changed the character of the river itself. INT: Are there any other comments you would like to make or are there any questions you would

like to ask me? MsX: I don’t think so. As I haven’t been down there I feel as though I haven’t got a lot to say

about it. INT: That’s true actually. Some people go 2 or 3 times a day and they are obviously going to

have more to say than people that don’t go there. MsX: I work in the evening as well. I am a cold person, if it is too cold I don’t like venturing out.

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INT: I’m the same so I sympathise with you. Well thanks very much for your time.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 18 – 14TH JANUARY 1998 INT: Do you actually go down to the river very often? MrX: Well not really being as it is so wet and I haven’t got the dog to walk around. I do go there

when the opportunity arises. INT: So you have seen what they have done down there? MrX: Oh yes I have. I have noticed recently with all this rain that we have had, I don’t think it is

as flooded as it used to be. INT: You don’t. MrX: I think it is a lot better than it used to be. I know it is wet and boggy but it is not as bad as it

used to be. INT: It used to be a lot worse did it? MrX: Oh it would come up the road. INT: I know some of the houses have been flooded in the past. MrX: I have photos, it was like one big lake, you know the garage down there, all the cars were

floating about, that must have been in the 70’s. INT: So if I can start then by asking you, in your opinion, how successful do you think the river

restoration project has been? Do you think it has been a success? And why do you think it has or hasn’t been?

MrX: Well I would say it was successful from the point of view of appearance. It is more

enjoyable to walk around there. I think there is a bit more wildlife now, a lot of the ducks seem to be around there. The concrete path they have put in has made a difference. The only thing is they want a bridge now at the end. When you get up that side it’s a dead end you have to walk all the way back again.

INT: That’s due to be done MrX: Yes that’s due to be done shortly. Hopefully they will make it a bit more like the one further

down the Skerne where it is a bit more vandal proof than the one they have got down here. That’s the biggest problem.

INT: Yes it is a big problem unfortunately. So you think it looks nicer and it is better for people

to walk down there, there’s more wildlife. Anything else you can think of? MrX: The weeds were a big problem I thought, if they could keep on top of that, they gave an ugly

appearance. I suppose they have scraped all the banks and everything so they have probably got rid of most of them. I don’t think it was as bad last year as it has been.

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INT: Are there any ways in which you think it hasn’t been successful? MrX: No I think any improvement is successful. INT: Out of those things you just mentioned, what would you see as being the most important? MrX: I think the layout. INT: What do you mean? MrX: The way it meanders round and the path as well. Are they just concreting one side? INT: As far as I know. Several people have asked whether they are going to do the other side but

I haven’t heard anything. Now that people have asked me I shall check on it and find out. I don’t think there were plans initially do to both sides.

MrX: With the amount of people that are walking up and down it does get a bit rutted. INT: It is I noticed that the other day when I was there. What would you see as being the most

important benefit for you personally from the project? MrX: Well it is definitely more pleasant to walk around now. Once we get the bridge over I think

it will be even better because you can then do a circular walk. INT: Do you know if other people you have spoken to feel that there are other things that they

think are better? MrX: There are only a couple of people that I have spoken to and they enjoyed it and liked what

they have done. As I say without having the dog you don’t seem to talk to many people. INT: It’s great to meet people when you have got a dog. You said there was more wildlife now,

do you think it has helped with conservation. MrX: I think so, it keeps it a lot cleaner as well. People seem to appreciate it a bit more, well

hopefully anyway. If you can get through to the children. INT: When you first heard that they were going to do a project down there, did you have any

particular expectations or ideas of what it was going to be like when it was done? MrX: No I couldn’t really visualise it. There were the drawings, but I didn’t know to scale how far

it would be. INT: On the first interview did they show you the plan? MrX: Yes they did. INT: So you had an idea what they were going to do? I was going to say how does it compare

with what you thought it might be like?

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MrX: I think that’s pretty much what I thought. You have to allow for growth of the plants and what have you, it all takes time.

INT: Would you say that the river plays any part in your life at all? MrX: A little bit I would say, especially around the spring and summer time. I like to go for an

evening walk around there, it is quite pleasant, especially now. INT: Do you think the river plays an important part in the life of the local community generally in

the area? MrX: I have never heard people say. INT: Do you think they value having the river here? MrX: I think they do really, it’s just that they accept it and don’t think about it. It’s like if you

have a museum on your doorstep you never bother going, you don’t appreciate it. INT: If something threatens it then you start thinking about it. Do you think the river is an

important part of the local landscape? MrM Oh yes it adds a bit of character to the place. INT: Do you know whether the way people use the river was taken into account when they were

designing this project. MrX: No I don’t know. INT: Do you think that sort of thing should be taken into account when designing things like this. MrX: It’s hard to say because a lot of people just couldn’t care less. Other people would say yes

that’s great. A lot of people now I find don’t put anything into the community. It’s all individuals and that’s it.

INT: That’s very true. Would you look upon the river as belonging to the local community in a

way? Or don’t you really think of it like that? MrX: I don’t think we really think of it like that. Maybe we would if it was in a village and maybe

a centrepiece then I think they would, because it is on the edge I don’t think so. INT: Do you think other people might? MrX: Some people might yes. It’s relaxing when you are walking down there. It is more friendly

in the summer. This time of the year it is quite boring. It is pleasant in the summer. INT: Would you say that you felt involved with the river in any way or not particularly? MrX: Well I have always taken an interest in it. I go down and have a look at it.

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INT: Have you always lived in the area? MrX: I have lived here for 20 years. INT: So you didn’t go down there as a child or anything? MrX: No I used to live in xxxxxx before. I was involved in the sea before I have always lived near

water. INT: Do you think there are any groups locally that might be more involved, are there any groups

that use the river for any activities? MrX: Apart from the schools going down for the children to see the ducks and the wildlife, I have

never seen many other people take interest in it. Half of them don’t even know it is there. INT: I have interviewed several people who never go down there. MrX: They wouldn’t know where to find the ponds or what to look for. INT: Apart from the two interviews before, were you involved in the consultation about the project

in any other way? MrX: I can’t remember, I wouldn’t like to say. INT: There were some meetings I know and there was an exhibition in the library and things. MrX: I saw it in the library but I didn’t know of any meetings, I didn’t attend any. INT: Do you know whether, you didn’t go to any of these, but do you know if any other people in

the area went to them and had a say in how the project was going to be designed and things? MrX: No I wouldn’t like to say. Not that I know of. I know of a couple of people that live on the

edge of the river but they have never mentioned it to me. INT: Do you think that you could have been more involved in the project if you had wanted to be. MrX: If I had wanted to I suppose yes. It depends what your commitments are really. As I work

shift work I find that a lot of the meetings are held on the wrong shift for me. INT: Can you think of any ways which you could have been more involved? MrX: I think there could have been more leaflets through the door or if a meeting was held in the

school or somewhere more local maybe. INT: Do you think it is important that local people should be consulted and involved with this sort

of project? MrX: Oh yes I do. They feel appreciated then and it becomes part of their life, whereas if

something is just stuck there they don’t feel they get their backup.

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INT: That’s right they do. MrX: They are the ones that are going to have to put up with the noise and the mess while they are

doing the work. INT: That didn’t bother you because you live here it was too far away. Would you say that you

were satisfied with the consultation, or do you think it could have been improved in any way? MrX: I am satisfied. I have been made more aware of what has been going on. I have been going

down to the river to have a look. INT: Do you think that the consultation was a success from your point of view? MrX: I would say so yes. INT: Was that because you felt that people had enough opportunity to have an input? MrX: I think so yes. INT: One of the objectives of the project was to try and restore the river to make it into a more

natural condition. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, how would you describe a natural river?

MrX: I think trees on the embankment, a few rocks and a bit of a waterfall. A pool at the side, I

think some plants around it which changes the environment for the wildlife. INT: Any other features that you would expect to find on a natural river? What about the river

itself, its shape? MrX: Yes I think the shape yes. It is better than being plain. It is nice to see the meanders. I

didn’t know what it was like originally. It was straight because it was a bit of wetland originally very marshy and swampy. That was before I came here.

INT: How natural do you think the river looked before they did the project? MrX: As I say I didn’t know what it was like before, it was just straight through. INT: Did you think it looked quite natural just before they did it? MrX: Well it wasn’t interesting was it? INT: How natural would you say it looks now? MrX: Oh it looks a lot better now. It looks more natural now and it’s more interesting now. INT: OK. Do you think it is possible to talk about restoring a river to its natural state these days

or not?

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MrX: Yes but I think the river will go naturally to it’s natural state. You have to just let it take its course. If you interfere with it, unless you make it more interesting, then it is natural to start with. They all cut their own path don’t they?

INT: I suppose I am thinking in an urban area like this, do you think it is feasible to restore a river

to its natural state or not. Do you think there would be too many things that would stand in the way?

MrX: I think so. If it was put into like country type fields I would say yes, there are more trees

there. I think you have got to find the balance. I think it needs a few more trees on the other side of the bushes. I know there is quite good access to it now whereas before you hadn’t.

INT: Compared to other rivers that you may visit, how natural is this one in comparison with the

others? MrX: There is a lot more speed to that now. I think it is just about right really. What is a natural

river. INT: Some people say we have tamed the River Skerne, do you think that’s true? MrX: I think you have yes. INT: Do you think that is true of most rivers today? MrX: Yes I think so. Apart from the wide ones, the really big ones. INT: Do you think we should tame rivers and control them like that? MrX: If the flooding causes problems to the environment that they are in, especially if it affects the

houses. I think it has worked out well considering all the rain that we have had. I think it has done well.

INT: Do you think when we tame or control rivers like this, do you think it makes them less

natural or more natural or doesn’t it make any difference? MrX: I think in time I don’t think it will make much difference because it will find it’s own course.

You have put the basics there and nature will take over from that. But I would say that it has got more interesting.

INT: Do you think that even if a river is controlled and managed it can still look natural? MrX: Oh definitely. It will look more pleasant anyway. What you say as natural could be

overgrown with weeds, whereas if it is managed it is more pleasant. Is that what you are proposing to do, keep on top of it or is that up to the council?

INT: I think they plan to periodically cut weeds back and things. There’s actually a management

plan which is being drawn up for that sort of thing.

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MrX: That’s good because you do all the work and it just deteriorates it’s a waste of money and time and effort.

INT: As far as I know they plan to do that. Would you say in your opinion that the restoration

project is scientific at all? MrX: Yes I would say it was scientific, they must have gone into the wildlife side of things and

how the river might affect the wildlife. INT: Have you got any idea of what sort of knowledge or scientific knowledge might be needed to

do a project like that? MrX: I haven’t no. I know that you have to research the plants and insect life for the area. INT: Anything else you can think of? MrX: Well they need to look at the way the river flows I suppose to see if it is affected. You only

need to get heavy rains like we have had now and you get flood water then it washes away all you have planted. Do you do research in the locks with the flow of the water?

INT: I don’t personally, but people do. MrX: So that would have all been done? INT: Normally what would be done is that they would do what they call hydraulic modelling of

basically what you have just said, the way the river flows. They would make a model of it on computer. They feed in all the data about the size of the banks the river channel and everything and they can test it with different flows of water and see how it stands up to it.

MrX: Otherwise it might just wash the banks away. INT: It’s all very sophisticated and high tech. Sometimes they actually build models if it is a big

project. Not so much with this perhaps but with a bigger one they would build and test it with the flow.

MrX: Do you monitor the water that’s in there? Has it been monitored? INT: The water quality has been monitored. It was hoped that would improve after the project

had been done. The problem is that you have still got water coming from upstream, in sections that have not been restored coming through here. So you could still have problems. I think there was a pollution incident last year now.

MrX: That’s right from one of the factories. INT: Yes and that’s very difficult to control unfortunately. The people that did the river

restoration project, to what extent do you think they know how to restore rivers? MrX: I think they must have the knowledge and they definitely had a good idea. They blocked

parts off and let it flow through.

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INT: So do you think they have all the types of knowledge that is needed to do something like this? MrX: I think so yes. They ran out of money didn’t they. That was the biggest problem when they

just left everything. INT: Yes that was a problem. They were doing it in stages hoping that they were going to get some

more money to do the next bit. MrX: That was the biggest problem I think of the whole lot. INT: Yes it was. MrX: I think that got everybody’s backs up down on the river because it was just left. INT: That’s the reason why the new footbridge hasn’t gone in yet because they didn’t get the

money they wanted, so they have got to design a cheaper bridge now. MrX: Oh I see. It all comes down to money. It’s always the same isn’t it. As long as it is sound.

I suppose that the original design would have been more suited to that type of river would it? INT: I think they had a competition, I don’t know too much about it. There was a competition for

people to put in a design for a bridge and some of them were quite fancy and elaborate. They did choose one that they wanted to go ahead with but they wanted to get some extra lottery money, and they heard in December that they hadn’t got it so they had to have a re-think. Instead of now having an elaborate bridge it will be a fairly simple one, which I think the last I heard, is due to be done around June. They have got to make a couple of changes to the footpath where it doesn’t drain away, they are going to rectify that so they will do that at the same time. Would you say then that you trusted the river restoration people to know what they are doing with the project on the river?

MrX: Oh yes I would say so. It has been a great improvement. Anything that improves the area is

welcome. INT: Have you got any idea whether you think there is still a lot more to be learnt about restoring

rivers like this? MrX: Well I wouldn’t like to say really. I suppose just get the money all together would be a good

thing. It’s all down to finances how far they can go. It is such a competitive world now. INT: Absolutely everything is competitive. MrX: It’s how you justify the money isn’t it? INT: Well it is which is obviously one of the reasons why they like to find out what local people

think. If everyone is in favour they see that as justifying the cost. MrX: What was the response does everybody like it?

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INT: Very good actually. There are obviously a few people that thought the money would have been better spent on other things, like hospitals or that, but of course it would never have been, because it was only made available for this project. You can take their point, but generally the response from the survey we did last year and the previous one before was very positive I would say. At least 80% were in favour of what was done. So it was quite a good response.

MrX: Anything that improves things and if it looks nice I think people respect it. INT: I am wondering whether because there has been lots of vandalism down there and people

riding their motorbikes up and down, do you think that will stop eventually. Do you think there will be pressure from people who walk along the river?

MrX: I think there will be yes. Well they will try anyhow. It’s teaching the children that are

growing up. INT: I heard someone the other day say there used to be a crowd of teenagers hanging around the

footbridge and now they have grown up so you don’t get so many down there now. MrX: That’s right. It was always getting wrecked. That’s what will happen to the new bridge

because it is in the area where the new bridge is going to go. INT: I think I have covered everything I wanted to ask. Is there anything else you would like to

say about the project or anything? MrX: No I am quite happy. INT: You are quite happy with what’s been done there? MrX: Yes all the grass is growing over. INT: It looks a lot better now, it looked very bare at first. END OF TAPE

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 19 – 10TH FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Do you go down past the river very often? Presumably you do because .... MrX: I do, yes, when I go for a walk with the dog. Me and the wife walk down, well, I don’t go

as much as I used to, but .... INT: Right. MrX: We go now and again don’t we. INT: But you’re obviously familiar with what’s been done down there as part of the project and

everything. MrX: Yes. Yes. INT: OK. Some of these questions you may not be able to answer very much and that’s OK,

because some will perhaps apply to some people more than others. If I can start by asking you first of all, how successful you think the restoration scheme has been, or if you think it’s been successful at all? And in what way you think it has or hasn’t been successful.

MrX: I think it would be better if it was finished off, if we had a footpath on this side of the river.

That would be the biggest thing, wouldn’t it? Definitely. Because you’ve got the tendency ... people go down and see where people walk on this side of the river, where the grass is just warn out where people are walking and we’ve had all this rain recently, and you can’t get down this side of the river because it’s that muddy. It does definitely need a path.

INT: So do you mean something similar to what they’ve done on the other side or ... ? MrX: It would be better yes ... yes, definitely. INT: OK. So that’s, in a sense, a way that you think perhaps it could be improved ... MrX: It could be definitely improved with a footpath on this side. INT: Right. What’s been done so far then, as it is now ... is there anything about what they have

done that has been successful in any way? MrX: Well I think it’s better for the wildlife, definitely, better for the wildlife. At the moment

there’s a lot of Canadian geese on, isn’t there? The swans have disappeared ... we had a couple of swans at one stage. They disappeared and they came back and they’ve disappeared again, haven’t they?

INT: They sort of come back periodically ... MrX: That’s right, yes. It’s been a long time this time, hasn’t it? MsX: ?????????

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INT: Yes. OK. So you think it’s improved the wildlife. MrX: The only thing, as late as we’ve had this restoration done, we’ve had two scares in the river,

like chemicals leakage, haven’t we? And it’s killed most of the fish, because, at one stage, before the river even got started, near Five Arch bridge, before they started, there were fish ... ???? long ... and we’ve never seen them again, have we?

MsX: No. MrX: We haven’t seen them again. Whether, obviously, it’s destruction that’s caused it. INT: Yes, and that was further upstream was it? MrX: ???? yes. INT: Yes, it’s a shame. I mean, is there anything else about what they’ve done that you like or

that you think has been successful? MrX: I don’t know really. I would prefer to see it come the summer time really, to see ... I know

they’ve put some trees and that in, bushes, I’d like to see that, to see what it’s like that comes back to life.

INT: Right. MsX: In actual fact it’s going to be about five or six years .... MrX: Oh it’s going to be a few years before it’s established. INT: Yes. Right. MsX: To have any sort of idea of what it’s going to be like. MrX: ... what it’s going to be like, yes. INT: Yes. OK. Do you think it’s improved things in any way, or been a success, as far as

people visiting maybe, for walking dogs, and things like that? MrX: I think they have seen there’s more and more people down on the field, isn’t there? MsX: They tend to use the other side. MrX: The other side where the footpath is. But again we were promised a bridge near the Five

Arches last year and there’s been no start of that yet. MsX: ??? MrX: Yes but they ran out of money when they started river. When they actually started there

were days when they weren’t using the plant ... like the machinery was stood there for days on ends, which to me was a waste of money and they don’t cost ... they’re not cheap to be

3

stood inanimate. They could be stood for like a week, then the next thing, the machinery disappeared.

INT: As far as I know, the bridge is due to go in in about June. MrX: June. MsX: They keep putting it back don’t they? MrX: They keep putting it back, yes. INT: It was actually because they didn’t have enough money to do it, and then they applied for

some extra lottery money and they heard only just before Christmas that they hadn’t got it, so they had to have a rethink.

MrX: We were told ... actually one of the local companies ??? were going to actually build it for

them. MsX: I mean, whether it’s right or not, but I heard that they actually offered to build it for free. MrX: Build it for free, and they just ... I don’t know why it never came about. INT: I haven’t checked into it. MrX: And they also said, like the Council, or everyone who were doing it, said they actually run

out of money and I thought well why, because when they said they were going to build it for free.

INT: Yes. MsX: I mean if it’s a fact ????? MrX: Especially when we’re the specialist bridge builders in the world, virtually. INT: Yes, I interviewed someone down the road who works for them and he had very strong

feelings about it. MrX: It is, I don’t blame them actually. It’s ... MsX: It would have been nice because it’s been a little bit of a ????? MrX: Then you could have said, like, look at Darlington, years ago, like the old railways, ????

we’ve got Darlington now on the ??? road for our bridge, the footpath goes all the way down to that, and again it would be nice, with having the river done up, only the three in Europe under the money that they’ve given, that Cleveland Bridge, again a world-beater, in actually putting the bridge up, which would have been nice again.

INT: I’ll check on that with the RRP to see what ... Do you think it looks better than it used to?

4

MrX: I think so, yes, yes. I think it looks better, definitely. I’d say yes. INT: I mean what do you think makes it look better? Anything in particular? MrX: I think the trees and what have you they’ve put in and extra ... MsX: The bends and things. MrX: Not the bends, the ... MsX: Meanders. MrX: Well, the meanders, some of them, I think the ... there’s one of them, the last one, the

backwater, in some of them just looks like a pond and it looks horrible and black at times, don’t they?

MsX: Well it’s always stagnant. MrX: Stagnant, at one stage where the flow of the water doesn’t actually come into it as much and

it just gets stagnant. ???? INT: OK. What do you think perhaps has been the most important success? MrX: I think just getting the wildlife back over there. To see the wildlife. INT: Have you seen a lot more wildlife do you think, since ... MrX: Oh yes, there’s definitely been more wildlife. I think the only thing we haven’t seen since

they’ve actually done the river, you used to see quite a few rabbits on the other side of the river, we don’t see them now do we?

MsX: There’s plenty of fox over there. MrX: Is there? Oh well. I didn’t know that. INT: That’s probably why most of the rabbits have gone. MrX: That’s a possibility then. Yes. But as I say, lately with it being as wet, even the field on

this side of it, it’s just like a bog. I wish somebody would come round actually and ask about that field because, about 3 or 4 years ago, down the bottom where the trees are, just behind that, we had a water leak, and the field got really boggy, didn’t it? In that particular space ... if you go down now you can see where it’s black, where the rain over, and it’s just like a bog. It just ??? all the time. I know it’s nothing to do with the river, but I wish somebody, like if somebody came round with the Council, to ask about it, it would be nice for them to get that field drained, because after 2 or 3 days of rain it’s terrible, isn’t it? It needs draining.

MsX: When you think about it, it’s not connected with the river as such, but it’s all part of it. If

somebody comes and sees all that where it has been ... it’s very off-putting.

5

MrX: Again, it’s not just this part down here, there’s the next lot of trees where the corner is

where ?? lives, that gets boggy doesn’t it? MsX: The whole lot does round ..... MrX: And also further over, it’s terrible and boggy. It definitely needs draining that field. MsX: I wonder actually whether them altering the river has caused that kind of problem back on

the field. INT: Did it get boggy there before? MrX: It did ... MsX: In certain spots. MrX: In certain spots... but if we ourselves actually wanted to like come up out of the house and

go down straight direct ??? where it was boggy, you couldn’t do that, you’ve got to walk further on, before you can go in the fields.

INT: I mean one of the things they were trying to do was to partly restore what they called the

flood plain of the river as well .. now I don’t know whether that’s connected to what you’re saying ...

MsX: It was supposed to be at the other side, I think. MrX: But that’s over there isn’t it, the flood plan, yes. But I can’t see any reason why they’ve

put that in actually. MsX: Well it’s just sort of an overflow thing .... MrX: Overflow, but then again they could have put another backwater in over there couldn’t

they? They could have put another backwater in. MsX: In actual fact there was a pond over at the other side, wasn’t there? Well I’m saying it was

a pond, it was a big muddy puddle almost really? MrX: That was the idea though wasn’t it? That’s where the flood plain was. MsX: No it wasn’t. It was partially up on the other side. INT: Was that what they called the keepsake, where they’ve landscaped it now, it’s more like a

valley. MsX: No it was further down. It’s not where they’ve put all the trees and everything. They’ve

actually got it fenced off. It was further down towards the Five Arches. MrX: ????

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MsX: No. Sort of more or less in the middle of the field. MrX: Oh, yes I know where you mean, yes. MsX: ??????????? I think with the motion of the river it’s altered the drainage ... I mean

obviously this was the intention, but yes, I mean again it’s better because it was just really a great big puddle in the middle of the field, but it’s better as it is. But obviously the drainage has been altered at that side, so it makes you wonder whether they’ve done something to ?????

MrX: Well this is one thing we’ve noticed. On the other side again, the river, again about

drainage. Where they’ve banked it up, ???? they’ve actually drained that with the stones or what have you, that is an improvement, if they could do something on this side, again that would be an improvement to get the drainage right.

INT: OK. So would you say, for yourselves personally, the most important benefit would be

what .... the fact that there is more wildlife, or would it be something else? MrX: Definitely more wildlife. But again I wouldn’t like to commit exactly about the river until

it’s fully in growth. MsX: It needs more time to ... MrX: It needs more time definitely. And another thing ... where they’ve diverted it, at times they

don’t cut the grass often enough, and if you wanted to actually go on our side, to go to the river and see it, the grass is sometimes a foot and a half deep, isn’t it, they’ll cut the field, but they won’t cut where the backwaters are.

MsX: ???????????? MrX: Yes, but when it gets a foot and a half deep they come and cut it then though don’t they? MsX: Yes, I know, but it’s supposed to be, they reckon ... again whether it’s right or not .. but

people reckon it’s supposed to be ???? MrX: I know but the thing is though, if you’re going to go down to look by the river, you don’t

want to be 10 foot away, you want to be close to the river and you can’t get to it because the grass is ....

MsX: ??? must find it more difficult to seed in places now with them putting ????? MrX: Leaves and trees ... MsX: Yes the trees especially. I mean obviously I would imagine again that’s the sort of ??? the

banks and things ???? MrX: Yes, and another thing, plus, is where we’ve had this heavy rain, when the river’s been in

flood, it wouldn’t be so bad if they came round so often and cleaned it out, because you get

7

all the rubbish in amongst the trees, don’t you. MsX: A Christmas tree. MrX: Yes, there’s a Christmas tree in. INT: Is there? MsX: Yes, there’s a tree ???? by the bridge. MrX: I noticed a Christmas tree in there the other day. When I was down last Thursday. INT: They don’t do that? They don’t come around. MrX: You never see anybody. You never see anybody. Put it this way, I walk ????? and where

I actually work, I’ve rung the Council up twice. The bridge where the main line is, and on the top of it there’s a scrap yard which ... that’s been there longer than I’ve actually worked over there. And the road is like that, and they put the drains, I know it’s nothing to do with the river, the drains are just off the bottom of the road, and you get a load of slurry. And on a lunchtime, I walk underneath there to go for my lunch, and at times the water’s about that deep, it’s about two or three inches deep, and there’s no way when you walk underneath there, you get the odd two or three idiots who come under, that try and splash you, you’ve got to run like hell. If it was a problem with the lady, or anybody with a pram, you’ve got steps either side, if somebody had to come under ... they can’t take a pram or a pushchair down that, they’ve got to use the road which is narrow, and I phoned the Council up and complained about that. There’s four drains, they’ve cleaned three of them out, they’ve left one. The three they’ve cleaned out, they’ve left all the slurry on the side of the road, at the top of both roads, they haven’t even cleaned the drains out. I’m not going to phone up ???? I’ve told the Council, and if not ... if any Councillor comes down ??? I’m going to tell him.

MsX: Who actually is responsible for the river now? INT: For the river itself? It would be the Environment Agency. MsX: For actually cleaning it out etc? INT: I believe so, yes. Something like that I don’t know. MrX: Well it was Darlington but, I’m going to have to complain again to say that ... even if now,

if they cleaned it after the rain stopped, with the heavy rain the drains are just blocked up and they’ve just left it next to it.

INT: Oh well .... MrX: It’s nothing to do with the river. INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do the project here, can you

remember what your initial expectations were, did you have a particular image of what you

8

thought it was going to be like when it was done? MrX: Not really, did we? They said where the river was getting put back to as it was years ago ...

now when they put the boards up for people to notice and have a look at, it was back to front to us, wasn’t it? It was back to front, and it was totally different to when they’d actually finished.

INT: When you say back to front what do you mean? MsX: You actually imagine that it’s going to go from sort of that end across there, but they had it

sort of the other way round. MrX: The other way round. It was just totally ... MsX: Well everybody was ... well they weren’t moaning about it, but they couldn’t make head nor

tail of it. MrX: Couldn’t make head nor tail of it from the drawings. INT: I know the drawing you mean, yes. MrX: It was just as I say, as it is now, but the other way around. They even had the Five Arches

over here. INT: That’s right, they did. Yes, so they were standing on the other side. MsX: That’s right, yes. Obviously, yes. Everybody, of course, you know, with it being ?????

we were all trying to figure it all out. You know, it sort of took about 10 minutes before the penny dropped.

MrX: Yes. INT: Did you picture how you thought it was going to look or ...? MrX: No not really, no. We often had this discussion and we’d say we’ll just see what it’s like

when it’s finished. MsX: Yes. Because you couldn’t make head nor tail of it while they were doing it could you?

Obviously with all the equipment and that ... It’s starting to take shape though I think. MrX: Oh it’s definitely taken shape. INT: Yes. What I was going to say was how does it look now compared to how you actually

expected it to be? Is it more or less how you thought it would be or did you ... you said you weren’t really sure what it was going to be like?

MrX: I don’t think I was too sure. INT: No.

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MrX: I don’t think I was too sure about that. INT: Would you say the river plays any particular part in your lives at all? MrX: Well I don’t know really, but the only thing I can think of ... I think it might have put the

value of the houses up slightly. That’s one way I look at it. Because at the end of the day we’ve got a nice .. .like even now, a nice green belt just at the bottom of the street, which only ... about 25 yards away ... you see, any animal lover with dogs and what have you, can just ???? and you’re there.

MsX: Well really it does because you tend to walk along and you watch ???? MrX: Yes, that’s right. Well, my wife goes out every week and buys a cheap loaf of bread for

the ducks and that, don’t you? Yes, she often buys a cheap loaf of bread each week for the ducks.

MsX: And the geese. MrX: And the geese. We loved the Canadian geese last year didn’t we. MsX: Yes. Actually they’ve dwindled, there were about 30 of them at one stage. INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the lives of local community generally around here?

Do you see it as being sort of part of the community? MrX: I wouldn’t say that, would you? No. MsX: I don’t know, it’s just sort of ... I mean it always has been a place where people tended to

walk with the dogs. MrX: Yes. It always has been. MsX: But apart from that I don’t know. MrX: I wouldn’t say so. MsX: I must admit, I expected more people coming in to have a look at it. MrX: But I think that if you’ve got this bridge in where you can actually do the full circle, that

itself would be a bigger part to the it. MsX: There again, it’s about time of the year isn’t it? MrX: It’s a bad time of the year. But there’s one thing we don’t want ... is a car park. I don’t

want a car park, because they were talking about a car park, and I don’t think we’d like that, would we?

MsX: Well fair enough if they’re going to do one just with the stones that you can actually put

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into the grass, but they were talking about building a 3 foot hedge round it and what have you, which is just ... I mean to be perfectly honest there’s goose nests and all sorts down there anyway.

MrX: Yes, under the bridge. That’s another that would be a good improvement ... if you got the

other bridge done, that sorted out. MsX: I think they’re supposed to be doing it aren’t they? INT: I think so, I’m sure what exactly, but I think so. Do you think the river’s an important part

of the local landscape? MrX: I think so, yes. Definitely. INT: Do you remember ... I mean, I don’t know, have you always lived in Darlington? MrX: Yes. INT: So you remember it when you were a child ... MrX: We didn’t live over this part of the town. We’ve lived here about x years now. x years in

this house. INT: I just wondered how much you knew about the history of this part of the river. MrX: The only history that we knew ... part of this estate is on a bog, that’s the only thing ...

history of the estate that we knew, wasn’t it? MsX: Yes, apart from the fact that the river used to be a meandering river years ago and then they

straightened it out. INT: Yes. MsX: I think it was something to do with the industrial ... wasn’t it ... to try and sort of ... MrX: Get it down quick. INT: That’s right. ??? Flooding ???? MrX: That’s one thing ... the first year we moved in it was ... was it the November of the year? ...

we moved in. Well, we moved in and it was terrible. It snowed .. it was about a foot and a half deep, wet snow, wasn’t it? And it was actually ... it rained for about 48 hours after that. The water ... we couldn’t get out the left or the right. Even ... have you walked over by the river yourself?

INT: Yes. MrX: Well that little bridge I was talking about ... the water was about four foot above that.

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INT: Was it? MsX: Actually, the houses along the riverside ... MrX: ... on riverside ... MsX: There are about ... I can remember now ... it was up to the windows anyway. MrX: I think the water was about that deep in the houses, on both sides. INT: What year would that be? MsX: It’ll be 20 years ago this year I think. MrX: Yes, 20 years this year. INT: Oh actually, yes, ‘78, there was a bad ??? that year. MrX: Yes, August was terrible. We thought what have we let ourselves in for here. MsX: I mean that’s the worst it’s ever been. It did flood quite regularly didn’t it? MrX: It did, after that, with that heavy snow and what have you. I would like to actually see it

now, if we got heavy snow and it rained, to see if it has improved it, but even at times, when you walk by the river, because I ... when I go down with the wife, I’m always looking for fish aren’t I to see if any fish have actually come back into the river, and there’s parts of it where to me I think it could do with dredging up because it is too ... it’s not deep enough, because although as well you get a lot of silt coming down from somewhere, don’t you? The silt’s building up.

INT: Do you know much about the River Skerne generally, do you know where it sort of comes

from and where it goes to? MrX: I haven’t a clue where it comes from. I think it comes somewhere up Bishop Auckland

area, isn’t it? Bishop Auckland area, and goes into the Tees at Croft. INT: Yes, that’s right. Yes. I mean, do you know other parts of the Skerne apart from the bit

sort of around here or not? MrX: Not really. MsX: Just the bit through the town. MrX: Just the bit through the town. Again, we were down the town a few months ago. Again

there were fish down there wasn’t there? Which is high up. MsX: There’ve been more put in haven’t they? MrX: Well they were put in. But it’s nice to see the fish in the river again, because you know if

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the fish are in, it’s got rid of most of the pollution, and it’s nice and clear and ... INT: Do you think the quality of the water’s improved since they’ve done this? MrX: Oh definitely. INT: You think so. MrX: Definitely, yes. Apparently quite a bit of the industrial up ... further upstream, that’s not

there any more. They’re not polluting it. INT: Right. Do you think when the river restoration people were designing and planning what

they were going to do here, do you think they took into account much about the way that local people use the river? Do you think they allowed for that sort of thing when they were designing it?

MsX: No I don’t think they did. MrX: No they didn’t. Definitely not. No. MsX: They seemed to have preconceived ideas didn’t they? I mean obviously they are the

experts, they know ... MrX: Should be. MsX: Yes. Apart from in some cases where they got it wrong. INT: When you say preconceived ideas ... about anything specific or ...? MsX: No, they just seemed to have it all sort of mapped out beforehand, didn’t they really. It

was just sort of a case of ... mind you, saying that, I mean, one part was filled in and dug out about 10 times at the other side.

INT: Was it? MsX: Oh yes. There was a chap kept coming up from London who kept changing his mind every

time and the workmen had to re-do it. MrX: Re-do it and fill it in again. MsX: They were nearly demented I think at the end of it. Oh no not again, what’s he going to do

this time. I think he came up every two days or something. MrX: Every so often, yes. MsX: I think it was every two days, and then he used to change his mind and say oh that’s not

right, you know, do it so and so. INT: So you said you don’t think they allowed for the people who used it ... were there any

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specific ways that you can think of that maybe they ??? something or ...? MsX: I think with these backwaters actually, I don’t think they ... I mean, fair enough, two of

them were working well. MrX: Two of them are working well. MsX: The other one is just absolutely. MrX: The end one over there is just ... atrocious. INT: Why? MsX: I mean admittedly, as I say, they’re supposed to know all about the ... MrX: More than what we do. Yes. MsX: Oh of course, yes, they’re supposed to be the experts. But they didn’t seem as though they

wanted to really listen to anybody, I don’t think, did they? I don’t know, it was just ... INT: Did you go to any of the public meetings? MrX: Oh yes, we went to the meetings didn’t we? Yes, we were at the meetings. MsX: Yes, I went to the last one as well when they were discussing putting all the trees and

everything in ????? MrX: I didn’t make that one did I? I couldn’t make that one. MsX: ????? INT: There were other things .. like the exhibition in the library and some guided walks I think

along the river ... were you involved in those at all? MrX: No. MsX: No. We kept seeing people going up and down. MrX: Yes, there were quite a few people up and down but ... INT: So, I mean, you were involved to a certain extent with the consultation about it, but you said

you don’t think they listened to local people ... MsX: I don’t know, I mean, maybe it’s me, I don’t know. But I just got the impression that they

seemed to have a sort of ... an idea and that was it. You know, it seemed to be the thing at that last meeting as well, they seemed to be sort of pushing for a certain thing all the time and you got the impression that they weren’t sort of listening to what people were saying.

INT: Would you say they were really just telling you what they planned to do rather ... ?

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MsX: It felt that way. It did feel like that. Maybe I’m wrong, I don't know, but that’s what it felt

like, I must admit. MrX: Yes. Yes. INT: Do you feel that any local people had a chance to have any input into really what was done? MsX: I don’t think so. INT: You don’t. MrX: No. ?????? MsX: The chap round the corner ... MrX: The chap round the corner ... retired folk and oh ... MsX: ????? apart from the one with the brown dog ... MrX: ???? on the field. MsX: He’s one of these that when the Conservative government were in, ... you know, if it rained

it was the Government’s fault, and all this, and he used to go and tell all the workmen what they were doing wrong.

MrX: Oh he was terrible. INT: Really? MrX: ??? he’ll tell you. But the only problem is... MsX: ?????? meetings he’d never have got out alive. MrX: The only problem is you’d have to get used to the strong language. INT: Oh right. MrX: Oh he’s terrible. INT: Is he? MrX: ?????? INT: Do you think there were any ways that people like yourselves could have been more

involved perhaps in the consultation, in what was going on with the project? MsX: I don’t know really, I mean, fair enough you can have ideas but, I mean, obviously you

assume that they know what they were doing.

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MrX: They know what they’re doing and again at the end of the day we didn’t know what the

river was like before they straightened it to start with, before they put it back to as it was. INT: Do you think that the consultation with local people could have been done any better, could

it have been improved in any way? MrX: I think people have got different ideas, because at first ... when it first got started and done,

everybody was saying that it was a waste of money, but I think now ... MsX: Well we did. MrX: Yes, we did, definitely. But even now, as I said, it is looking better. I would like to see it

in another two years time and to be asked what do you think after it’s fully fledged and has got itself sorted out.

INT: Yes. MrX: And again, how is it getting looked after? Because ... INT: Right. Is that something that concerns you about ... ? The maintenance. MrX: Definitely. Yes. The maintenance .. because to me, if it’s going to get established and

what have you, I think they’re going to just forget about it. MsX: I mean there’s no point in spending all this money and doing everything like that and then

just leaving it is there really. MrX: Because even now I think at the end of the day, again there’s too many reeds, I think in the

river. MsX: Again it’s supposed to be ??? MrX: ??? yes but they’ve put that little waterfall in near the bridge, why can’t they put two or

three more of them in to get the filtration through and get the air into the water? It would be better. Because I think with the reeds, if they don’t ...

MsX: There again, you assume that they know what they’re doing. MrX: Yes. Again if the reeds don’t get looked after and cut down regular, it’s just going to take

over because on the ... again near the Five Arches where we’ve got the pond, which is part of the river restoration work, we used to walk through regular with the dog didn’t we? Where the pond is.

MsX: Is that part of the river restoration? MrX: Well it’s not part of the river but it’s part of the wildlife isn’t it, I think it was part funded

because it would have done something ????? The pond itself, if you go over now, you can hardly get through because the grass has grown and the trees have grown, and there’s quite

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a few people like to look over and see the pond, because there’s goldfish in, ... INT: Is there? MrX: There’s goldfish in. They’ve been there for ages, and you see the frog spawn, tadpoles and

what have you, and again one or two ducks and everything on there. But even now, the reed have just taken over. It wants somebody to go in there and just sort it all out because you actually won’t see the pond because it’s ...

MsX: Someone was saying that’s part of ???? INT: Is that the Wildlife Trust Conservation Area? MrX: Yes. INT: It’s not actually anything to do with the river project. MsX: No. MrX: I thought they were going to do something about that though? MsX: No I don’t think so. It’s supposed to be ... I think it’s something to do with a body in

Durham, but I mean, you never actually ... INT: Yes, it’s the Wildlife Trust. MsX: Yes. MrX: Because there was something with David Bellamy, didn’t he, he came over, he came a few

times. MsX: No, that wasn’t for that, that was the river. But again, I mean, you know, it’s just sort of

bits and bobs isn’t it, that really need doing, but it’s not to do with them. MrX: I think this is why it needs to be ... again, be another meeting and get people’s voices over

to see ... get the river, the field and the pond ... try to get everything sorted out together, not just like yourselves, Durham County Council and Darlington Council, everybody in to get people over.

MrX: I mean Durham County Council isn’t involved ... it should be. MsX: Well it isn’t now because Darlington have got the borough .. we’ve got our own status now

haven’t we? Darlington. MsX: Yes, it’s Darlington Borough Council now isn’t it? INT: To what extent would you say that you were satisfied with the consultation that they did for

the project?

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MrX: I think it’s ... MsX: It’s nice to be involved but ... I don’t know. I still get the feeling that they’d made their

minds up before .. MrX: Before we said ... yes. Before they got the OK. MsX: You know, if somebody put an opinion over, particularly at that last meeting, they were

sort of ... they were almost ganged up. INT: Really. MsX: You felt like that, yes. Until everybody more or less said the same thing. And you know,

then it was quietened down a little bit, but ... I don’t know. It’s just a feeling, I mean, maybe they had a little chat beforehand and said oh well we think this is the best and .... Actually xxxx got a bit of a hammer at that meeting. xxxxx was already ???? he was wanting to put all these ... like a ship ... I mean, people just more of less turned round to him and said well all you do is get a ????

MrX: You see, that’s another thing, if you look at that bridge, as what the wife said, you get

people with drugs, and young kids drinking under the bridge and it’s like a haven on a night.

INT: Yes, I did hear about that. MrX: I think what would be a good idea ... it all costs money ... if they could put some fencing

underneath to stop the kids actually going underneath. MsX: But they just break it. MrX: But some decent fencing, not what the Council put up. MsX: They’d be into it anyway. MrX: Well even those things to stop the motorcyclists coming over, the bars ... even the kids pull

them out. They snap them, don’t they? INT: Do they? MrX: How they snapped them I don’t know, because you know yourself they’re pretty strong. INT: Yes, I know. MrX: Yes, the kids actually broke them. INT: Do you look upon the river, in any way, as sort of belonging to the local community, as

being owned?

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MrX: Yes. Yes. But even people say well you never say like Rockwell, they say that’s just where we got the river done up .... they say, oh yes, I know where it is now and they just ... it’s one of them things.

INT: Yes. I mean do you think people are proud of the river around here? MrX: Oh yes. Definitely. Now, yes. Definitely. INT: Would you say that you personally feel involved in any way with the river and what went

on down there at all or not? MsX: I think so, yes, I mean you tend to try and .... MrX: Well when you go around don’t you, on a nice day when you talk to people about other

things, type of things could have been done. MsX: No, well I don’t know, you try and sort of keep it ??? you try and ... you know, bits of glass

and things laid about ?????? but yes, I do, I think it’s ... MrX: Even now, with the Darlington Council, it’s like dog mess, they’ve imposed now a £25 fine,

for fouling on the field. You see, there’s loads of people now who walk around with little plastic bags and stuff. There’s more and more people doing that and the odd few that don’t.

MsX: Quite a lot that don’t. MrX: But to get people round on there to have a look round the river, walking, without no

footpath on this side people just walk anywhere, type of thing, but there’s no doggy bins to put it in, to put the dog mess in.

INT: Yes, several people have complained about that. MsX: They’ve put two in on the other side. ???? INT: Do you think people make more of an effort to keep it tidy down there now then? MrX: Oh yes, definitely, yes. INT: You think it’s looking perhaps nicer? MsX: Lots of people do yes. I mean you’ve still got ... MrX: The odd few. MsX: Well, again, ????? MrX: With the bridge there’s bottles and there’s cans and stuff like that under the bridge and ...

they also ... some of the bottles, they smash them on the bridge. You’ve got your dog, you’re looking after the river, you clean your mess up after you, and you walk across the

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bridge and it’s full of glass. Again, you don’t see no Council worker coming around and sweeping it and looking after it and keeping it clean. Again, the same with the river, they don’t come to clean the river up. I know it costs money, but if they kept on top of it, I don’t think it would cost as much to do that than do a major operation and keep the river and the bridge sorted out.

Conversation re. dog. INT: OK. Well would you think that the project here that they’ve done, the restoration, is

scientific in any way? MrX: Scientific, I don’t know really. INT: Do you think of it as a scientific project at all? MrX: I think the only scientific thing is where they’ve gone back and looked in as the river was

before it got straightened and put back together. INT: Right. Yes. MrX: But I’d like to know why they’ve actually gone back to this part to actually do it. INT: But I mean would you have any idea what sort of knowledge would be needed to do a

project like this? MrX: I wouldn’t know. No. INT: ???? what sort of things you’d need to know about? MrX: I think the only knowledge would be if we got notified well before. (Conversation re. dog) INT: So you haven’t got any idea what sort of things you’d need to know? MrX: No. I think the only thing we’d need to know if we had like a bit more warning if ... it’s

like a noticeboard, if you put in into a noticeboard when you actually walk round to see ... I know they do a little bit of it, but if they put a little bit more notification up.

INT: You mentioned earlier about the RRP being the experts ... can you sort of think about what

sort of experts would be needed to do that sort of project? MrX: I wouldn’t like to say. They’re the experts like ... MsX: We don’t know what in though. MrX: I know. I don’t know, I mean obviously they’ll ??? soil and everything. The river flow

and ... what sort of actually goes where I would think.

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INT: How much do you think that the RRP then do know about how to restore rivers? Do you think they’ve got the necessary knowledge?

MrX: I think they must have the knowledge somewhere, because to actually do it they must have,

again, old photos and stuff and ... things like that to see how the river was before they straightened it. Which would be nice for people like ourselves, to see some old footage of the river as it was, again, before it got straightened, and compare then to now.

INT: Is that an exact copy or is it just ... ? MrX: No it’s not an exact copy but somewhere. INT: They couldn’t put the meanders back in where they all used to be, in some places it is, but

there’s a big gas main that runs along this side, and they were restrained by it, what they could do, because ...

MsX: Of course, yes, they had to be careful ??? or whatever going over there as well. MrX: See that’s again, in a case like that with the gas pipe, today’s technology, why couldn’t they

have ... I know, again, it costs money, why couldn’t they have dug that deep and got it out of the way better?

INT: Well that’s the idea, it costs money so ... MrX: Yes, I know that. MsX: It’s cheaper to sort of go around it isn’t it? INT: That’s right. Would you say that you feel that you did trust the RRP to know what they

were doing, to sort of take care of the river? MrX: Oh yes, definitely. INT: Have you got any idea of what else might need to be learned or investigated about restoring

rivers from what you’ve seen has happened here? MrX: I wouldn’t like to say. When you’re out at work all day, you don’t see the full extent of ... MsX: Yes, but certainly that last backwater, they’ve got to revaluate that I would imagine. It’s ...

now somebody was saying something about the different kind of ... you know, where the actual filtration or whatever comes in ... apparently they’ve done some different things in one of them I think, some kind of ??? I can’t remember, but it was apparently quite a success, a good thing that was done.

MrX: In the river? MsX: Yes, in the actual backwaters, they reckon it was this different method of doing it or

something.

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MrX: That’s the middle one where all the ducks and that sit. MsX: I don’t know. I can’t remember. It’s just sort of in passing that you hear ... MrX: ... even on one part of the river where the kids can get down to it, at times, when it’s in

flood it gets boggy, but when it’s moving it gets low, apart from ?????? wall away, when it’s boggy and the kids can get down to that, I think that should be dug out so the kids and children can’t actually get down to it, know what I mean, on the other side.

INT: Right. MrX: That’s bad isn’t it? On that corner ... MsX: There again, I mean, when you think about it I realise that the idea of them putting the

banks in as they are now was because it was quite dangerous before and they were quite steep, but at the same time, in one way all they’re doing is encouraging the children to get down to the ?????

MrX: Yes. MsX: I mean a lot of them are OK, but you get the odd ones ... somebody firing, apparently ... MrX: Guns at ... now and again. MsX: They killed a duck a while ago. Oh yes. INT: One of the things that they were trying to do with the project was to restore the river to a

more natural condition, that sort of thing, they said they wanted to do. If I were to ask you to describe to me how you picture a natural river to look, what would you say, how would you describe a natural river?

MrX: Well I don’t think you can get as natural as what it is really. MsX: It’s quite ... yes. I mean obviously you get the meanders and things like that. MrX: I don’t think you can get as natural as to what it is. I think to me, at the moment, I know

that the meanders and what have you, to me, although when we first moved up it was straight, to me, now, it’s like a man-made river.

MsX: Well let’s put it this way, I mean, it’s going to find its own course isn’t it? ???? obviously

on one side, which is starting to do ??? and it’s going to find its own curves and things ??? MrX: Yes, which all rivers do. MsX: Yes, I mean, fair enough I mean it’s not going to take any of the bank away with the trees

and things and reeds and whatever, but as I say, the other side ... is or was starting to ... MrX: Again, where they’ve done the ??? work as well, where it actually curves out, where

they’ve put the wood and stuff like that to stop it getting washed downwards, which again,

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they’ve done their homework which is a good thing. INT: Do you think it looks a bit contrived, you know, not really authentic down there? You said

it looks man-made now ... MrX: Well to me it is man-made because when we first moved up it was straight and the outcome

... MsX: If you’d just sort of come in and seen it like that you’d have thought it was a natural ... MsX: A natural thing, but like I say, myself personally, to me ... it’s just man-made. INT: It was man-made before then, by being straightened. MsX: Oh yes. MrX: Yes, that’s right. INT: Yes. Yes. MsX: Well this is it, isn’t it? I mean they’ve taken the natural state away and put it into a straight

line and then ... MrX: They’ve put it back to ... as it was virtually. MsX: They all find their own course anyway ... MrX: Oh, it’ll find its own course after a few years. INT: But maybe not thinking about this river but, if you were just to think about and describe

what you think of as a natural river, how would you describe it? MrX: I think just normal really, even if we didn’t like come down here, and we’d just moved in,

we wouldn’t think ... MsX: Well obviously you have sort of trees and things beside it don’t you, you know, you just see

a river, like the Tees or the Skerne or whatever. You’ve got trees growing beside it, you’ve got sort of vegetation right up to it and ... quite a lot of them when you think about it have quite big stones in them as well.

MrX: Quite big stones in, yes. But the thing is if you put the stones in the river, where there’s

children about, the kids’ll try and walk across them and again that’s a danger. MsX: They did last year. INT: Yes. MrX: That’s a dangerous point, putting big stones in, because they use them as stepping stones

and with it being a fast flowing river you get a youngster straight in, if it’s in flood ....

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MsX: Yes, it’s very fast flowing this river. MrX: Very fast flowing ... MsX: When it gets ???? MrX: It builds up. We’ve even actually seen people, believe it or not, canoeing on that. INT: Have you? What since they’ve done ... ? Not this particular stretch. MrX: No, when it was straight and it was in flood, mostly at the top of the banks, they’ve actually

been canoeing on it. Haven’t they? Quite often. MsX: Yes. They must be made. INT: I mean do you think that these days it’s sort of feasible or possible really to talk about

restoring a river like this one to its natural state or not? MrX: Oh definitely, yes. Definitely. MsX: If you can get the finance. MrX: Yes, if you get the finance to do it. I think if people themselves came and had a look at this

now, when it gets established, they’ll definitely appreciate it more. INT: Yes. MrX: And I think they’ll say yes ... like, again, when we’re lucky enough to get our river done

now, for people to say, get on with this, it looks better and again what I said before, it might put the value of the houses up because ... on this bit of green belt ... because even in Darlington at the moment most of the green belt is getting sold off.

INT: Is it? MrX: Oh, it’s terrible. But again before we got our own status, Durham County Council sold

quite a bit of the land. Now there’s some land just over here which is being rebuilt. We’ve known it from being kids, it was farms and what have you .. it’s all been sold off now.

INT: Really? MrX: And I think the next thing is there’s a playing field there, I think that’s sold off as well ...

not too sure, but that’s probably the next stage, the playing field. INT: You were just saying you felt the river looked ... did you say you felt the river looked

natural before they did the restoration? Or how natural did you think it was? MrX: To me, I thought it was just natural until we actually moved in, met people, and they were

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saying, I don’t know how many years ago, it actually got straightened. As I say, it just looked natural to me until we found out that it got straightened and when this project came up, they say it’s going back to ??? somewhere near as to what it was.

MsX: Yes, well that’s the only way really we found out wasn’t it? People started saying it was

going back to the way it was. You assume that it’s sort of ... I must admit I’ve not seen a straight river before, you know, a straight ... you don’t sort of think about it when it’s there do you?

INT: No. No. How natural do you think it looks now compared to before then? MrX: I had my doubts at first. To me, at first, I thought totally waste of money, but now it’s

getting more established, definitely better. More natural now. MsX: Oh yes, definitely. INT: I mean compared to ... I don’t know whether you visit any other rivers around here .... I

mean how would it compare, how natural would it be now compared to maybe some of the other rivers you know?

MrX: I think this is better. INT: Do you? MrX: Yes, definitely. Yes. INT: In what way? MrX: Again, we’ve got the wildlife. You go to some other rivers, you don’t see like the ducks

and things like that ... MsX: On the Swale and things like that, you don’t seem to get the wildlife, well you don’t see the

wildlife. MrX: You don’t see it, again, with the Tees, even the Tees and stuff like that, obviously we don’t

walk round it .... INT: Right. MrX: But we see it down here, the wildlife, and there’s probably part of the Tees where you do. MsX: Oh you probably do, but ??? quite a bit of ??? at Croft didn’t we? MrX: Yes, ??? at Croft. You don’t see anything down there, where the Tees is, do you? MsX: Not that I’ve noticed. MrX: I’ve never noticed. Even if you go to Neesham, where the Tees comes, you don’t see no

wildlife down there. You might see the odd fish but that’s about it.

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INT: I mean it’s been said that we’ve sort of tamed most of our rivers and controlled them ... do

you think that’s true or not? MsX: I think it probably is. MrX: Yes, definitely. Yes. INT: Do you think that the Skerne’s been tamed at all? MrX: Well not really no. MsX: Not really, I think. Areas have been ... MrX: I had been ... the last place of employment I had, was down in the xxxxxx Street area near

the town centre, now again, that’s like an industrial area ... at the back where some of the workshops are it’s terrible, and to me that should be definitely cleaned up because that itself ... it’s where quite a bit of dirt has come into the river and at one stage there was people put their names down and volunteered to go and clean it up, but this is going back about 10 or 15 years when I worked down there. And the Council said no, you’re not insured to do it, but well for the time it could have been done they could have actually paid the insurance money to get somebody to do it, but ...

MsX: I could have even saved them a lot in the long run. MrX: But it is part of the Skerne ... I know it’s nothing to do with the river restoration, but there’s

part of it needs cleaning up, and I think that should be under the Darlington Borough Council.

INT: ???? MrX: Yes, but the thing is, it’s getting waste thrown into it and stuff like that which again, it’s

killing, it’s putting the rubbish into the Skerne. INT: Do you think that we should tame and control rivers like we do? Do you think we need to

manage them in any way at all? MrX: Slightly, I think that ... MsX: Yes, but I mean the ... I think a lot of the problem is that people tend to think rivers are there

... MrX: ... just to throw rubbish in. MsX: To put the waste in from factories, etc. I think this is what’s happened over the years, you

know, the thing where I’ve taken from the natural ??? and used as a disposal unit. MrX: Even now at times, when we get rain, you walk down by the river, you can see like oil on

the top.

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MsX: Oh yes, you get a film don’t you. MrX: You get the film on top ... where’s that coming from, is that coming off the roads ... MsX: Maybe because one of the ??? actually comes in from the road I think. MrX: Which to me, if that is like that, that should be blocked off. MsX: But then where do you put the ... MrX: But the thing is though, again, it’s the money they’ve spent on trying to get wildlife and

everything back onto it ... it’s just killing it isn’t it? MsX: Yes but you might ??? another sort of half million to divert where that ... MrX: Well we might as well, it’s cost us a fortune in Darlington at the moment. MsX: No it is not. MrX: Do you know Darlington much? INT: I know the centre, that’s about it really. MrX: You want to ride round it. I would love to take a Councillor round this town, me ... or the

full whack of them. I’d create a minibus to take them round to see what roadworks there are. Darlington is a laughing stock of the North East.

INT: Is it? MrX: Oh yes. MsX: Roadworks. MrX: Roadworks. INT: Yes, I have seen a lot of roadworks, I must admit. MsX: It’s the roadwork capital of the North East. MrX: We’ve just actually ... Concast ... with this cable television is all just coming back again,

which ... every street in Darlington has been dug up, roads have been dug up. INT: Are lots of people going on to the cable telephones do you know? MrX: There’s quite a few. We’re sticking to BT. INT: When we did the interviews last year, we got people’s telephone numbers and when I tried

to ring them to arrange appointments this time, it must be half of them, are now ... they’ve

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changed their numbers. MsX: You can’t get through to them. MrX: Yes. MsX: Yes, quite a lot of people did, didn’t they? I’m going to stick to BT. MsX: Only because you fell out with Concast. MrX: Yes, they called me a silly ???? because I wouldn’t go over to them. I said, no, I’m

sticking to BT, I said in five years time when you’ve conquered Darlington you just .... your prices are going to go sky high, and they called me a silly ???? so that was it. It did me. I was fuming that night.

INT: Just the last couple of questions then .... We were talking about sort of controlling rivers and

things like that ... do you think that by controlling rivers we’re making them more or less natural by doing that or not?

MrX: I think more natural yes. INT: You think we’re making them more natural? MrX: Yes. Definitely more natural. INT: In what way do you think it’s making them more natural? MrX: Well again, it’s just they’re looking better and you see more and more people coming to

appreciate it. MsX: We’re not talking about that one .. it’s rivers in general. MrX: Well again, when people go for walks, you get say 60% will go and walk by the river, not

matter what river it is, even like at times, we’ve gone to Richmond to walk by the Swale haven’t we? The river up there ??? they’ve kept it nice and tidy. There’s nought better than walking by the river.

INT: Yes, so you think controlling what they’ve done here has made it more natural? MrX: Oh yes, definitely. INT: OK, so would you say then that you think that a river can still look natural even if it’s been

managed and controlled by ...? MrX: Oh yes, definitely. Definitely. INT: If you think of a natural river, do you include in that idea man-made features as well or not?

I’m thinking about footpaths, bridges or rocks, or anything?

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MrX: Yes, ??? definitely, yes. It’s on the upkeep. MsX: ???? natural state. We all have to bring something to a river I suppose. MrX: Especially again, there’s quite a few houses getting built round about and I think without

???? in this little area we’ve got, on the open area, people have got a tendency, like a Sunday afternoon, where can we go, oh let’s go and walk by the river. That type of thing. Like, we’ve got a nice green belt down at the bottom here, and people ... where they’re building on the green belt, they’ve got nothing to walk on ???? me and the wife did it ourselves, we used to walk down the streets didn’t we? Stuff like that, before we moved up here.

INT: Do you think that rivers sort of change themselves over time, or do you see them as staying

permanent? MrX: Yes, well I think they will change, I don’t think we’ll see it, but I think the river ... probably

in another 40 years time ... we’ll probably change that the list changes slightly on the corners, on the bends and what have you.

MsX: They say they always find their natural course. MrX: At the end of the day it’s a bit clarty over there ... I think at the end of the day it’s just going

to wash it down and it’s just going to ... MsX: I mean they do tend to silt up on corners anyway and sort of make their own little ways yes. INT: Yes. Yes. Would you say that overall then, you’ve approved of what’s been done down

there or not? Have you still got sort of reservations? MrX: No I’d definitely say I approved. Definitely approved of it. I’d just like to see ... just like

it all finished, footpath this side, the bridge done, so that you can walk right round it and appreciate.

INT: You’re determined to get that footpath in aren’t you? MrX: I am definitely. Yes. But the trouble is some people don’t realise when they put .... before

this even started, the majority of people, I know, me and the wife, ourselves used to the other side of the river with the dog, quite a few people did, but there were more people on this side than the other side, unless the concrete mixer got on the wrong side of the river. It should have been on this side. Definitely.

MsX: Well actually it isn’t a footpath, it’s a cycle path over there. MrX: Well I think the bloke who invented putting it over there was a psychopath. MsX: I suppose it’s for wheelchairs and things like that. People are getting to the end and having

to turn round and come back again. MrX: This is it.

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MsX: I think I’ve actually seen one person in a wheelchair across there. INT: I haven’t seen any. MrX: That’s another thing, when it rains. Part of that footpath does flood. INT: Ah, now actually, they plan to ... when they do the bridge, they’re going to do something

about that, they’re going to put some sort of drainage in. MsX: Right. INT: There’s a couple of places I believe. MrX: Yes. INT: They’re going to do it all at the same time. MsX: Well this is particularly bad. MrX: It is isn’t it. Just over here. MsX: I think it’s about 6 or 7 foot across. INT: Right. MrX: And again if you’re walking, you’ve got to walk through all the mud when it’s wet. MsX: That was another thing actually, I was going to ask you, was that path supposed to be non

slip? Because it’s quite lethal. INT: I don’t know. MsX: Quite lethal when it’s frosty. MrX: Yes, anywhere’s lethal when it’s frosty. When it’s wet. MsX: I thought they said at one stage it was supposed to be non slip. MrX: No. You can’t stop anywhere where there’s frost on it ... whether anything ... it’s like

again ... I’m in the tyre trade ... people come in ... my car’s skidded ... they’ve got tyres on that’s bald. And it’s ice on the road, they get warned about this, then they come and complain, oh these tyres are a load of rubbish, it isn’t, nothing will hold on ice.

INT: Have you got anything else that you feel you’d like to say about the project or the river at

all? MrX: Not really no.

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INT: No. OK, well thanks very much for your time. MrX: Oh you’re quite welcome. INT: Very useful comment. MrX: If you want to come again, you’re quite welcome to. INT: If we get some extra money in another five years I might come back again. MrX: You’d have been quite welcome to a cup of tea or a cup of coffee. I asked you. What do

you think of the town centre? You’re not from Darlington, when you’re in the market place ... ?

INT: Yes, I’ve been through it every time I’ve been up here, mostly just in the car. MrX: Because that’s all just been done. Our town centre’s been put back again, like the river, as

it was originally. INT: Oh really. MrX: Yes. They’ve spent quite a bit of money and people, again, on about the river, what a

waste of money ... we thought about the town centre, waste of money, but now Darlington town centre market place, to me it’s beautiful.

INT: It looks quite nice, I must admit. MrX: Now ... we got Britain in Bloom this year ... in Darlington. Now it would be nice if you’d

come over up when all the flowers are out, because there’s one roundabout ... INT: Oh I think I saw it ... I remember coming up last year and seeing a roundabout with loads of

flowers on it. MrX: What they’ve done is they’ve put a big pole up in the middle of it with a load of hanging

baskets on it and it’s absolutely beautiful. MsX: It’s almost like a tree. MrX: It’s like a tree with the flowers on it. It’s absolutely beautiful. You want to come to

Darlington this year because it’s ... INT: I probably will. I will be up again. MrX: Try and come when all the flowers are out. We can’t enter this year ... Darlington ... MsX: It’s Northumbria isn’t it? MrX: We won the Northumbria one, and we got the Britain in Bloom now haven’t we?

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MsX: Yes but we can’t enter the Northumbria one now. MrX: We can’t go in for the Britain in Bloom neither for another two or three years. MsX: Oh well. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 2 – 5th NOVEMBER 1997 INT: Have you been down and seen the river at all since they have done the work? MSX: Just in the summer. INT: So you have seen it since they have done all the things down there? MSX: The water itself is OK but the sides were terrible to try and get down. INT: Was it? Which part did you go to? MSX: From here to the bridge. I was going to feed the ducks. It was terrible walking by the

nettles and the bracken. INT: Have you been further down towards Haughton. MSX: Well I have been down there yes. INT: Yes they have put lots of bends in the river. MSX: Yes it’s nice and clear. INT: Can I start by asking you, I don’t know how much you know about the project and you have

seen a bit of it. Would you say it has been a successful project or not, and if so perhaps why do you think that?

MSX: Well the water certainly, it’s been cleaned up the water itself, but as I say trying to get along

by the nettles you can’t really go along properly. INT: So you’re going along this side of the river? [north side] MSX: Yes we are going down to the bridge to feed the ducks. INT: Is that the Five Arches bridge? MSX: Not as far as Five Arches bridge. INT: Ok. MSX: There’s another bridge down there. INT: Yes I know the one you mean I think. Do you think it’s been a success for people that

want to just go along the river and walk a dog or something? MSX: Oh yes I should imagine so, apart from all the bracken and that, you couldn’t see the river

for the bracken and all that had grown up. INT: So you say they have not done anything along there?

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MSX: Not on this side, on the other side yes, but not this side. INT: What have they done on the other side? MSX: Well it is clear. INT: They have cleared it? MSX: Yes. INT: Do you think it’s any better for wildlife? MSX: Well yes I should imagine so. I should imagine all that bracken would be ideal. The

ducks enjoy it. INT: Do you see many ducks down there? MSX: Oh a lot. Child joins in conversation. INT: If we are talking about the project being successful, what would you think has been the most

successful thing about it as far as you are concerned? MSX: Well I would say the clean river itself. There were a lot of people swimming in it in the

summer, down the other end. INT: Do you think it’s a lot cleaner now? MSX: Oh yes it’s a lot cleaner now than it was certainly, I mean you can see the bottom. INT: Do you think most of the people around here see it as being quite a successful venture? MSX: Yes I think so. It must have cost a bomb but they have made like a road, but the riding of

the bikes spoil it. It goes right the way along to the road. INT: Oh the new path? MSX: Yes the new path. It must have cost a bomb it took them weeks. INT: Do you think other people see, I don’t know if you have spoken to anyone else around here,

the project as being successful in other ways other than those you have mentioned? MSX: I don’t think people have mentioned it me really. We just walk down to feed the ducks and

that is as far as we have gone. Sometimes on a Sunday afternoon we have gone under Five Arch Bridge but there are a lot of nettles under there as well. You can’t go near the water because of the nettles and bracken.

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INT: What would you say was the most important benefit for you from the project, or do you see any project?

MSX: I don’t think so really. As I say that is only as far as we walk. INT: Do you think there are benefits for other people? MSX: Probably the people that can see or live opposite in those new flats, probably that’s better

for them. Somebody said they are going to put seats in along there, which would be nice. But of course the vandals won’t let them alone will they?

INT: Can you remember when you heard about the project? Did you hear about it before they

started it? MSX: No I don’t think so. It wasn’t you that came was it? INT: No it wasn’t me. I was just wondering whether you had heard about it and did you have

any idea of what you thought it was going to be like? MSX: Well as the lady that came said it would be nice, but as I say it was just the bracken and

everything that you couldn’t see the river. INT: I was going to say does it look like you imagined it might have been now that it has been

done? But you say you didn’t really know what it was going to be like. MSX: No I didn’t. I mean a lot of people who have walked down there have said that it is not

much better than it was, apart from you could see the clear water. Last time I went down there were a load of bikes laid in the water.

INT: Apart from the other interview when someone came, did anyone else come to tell you about

the project, or were you consulted about it at all? MSX: No, just the one lady. INT: The lady with the other questionnaire. MSX: Yes and she was going somewhere else to some of the flats. INT: So you weren’t involved. There were some public meetings and things, but you didn’t hear

about them or go to any of those? MSX: No. INT: Would you have liked to have been told more about it do you think, or were you not really

that bothered? MSX: I wasn’t too bothered really, providing it’s tidy and the kids can get down, or we can get

down. We used to go for a walk down there on a Sunday.

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INT: Do you think that local people should be consulted about things like this? MSX: Oh yes I do. INT: What way do you think people would have liked to have been consulted? Maybe just a

letter through the door or someone come into them? MSX: Yes probably verbally really. Sometimes when you get circulars you just throw them in the

bin, you get that much. INT: Yes, that’s true. So you don’t really know anything about the consultation that went on.

Do you know if other people around here were consulted? MSX: No I never heard anything, I never heard anybody mention it really. INT: Do you think it could have been done better then so that other people like yourself were told

about it? MSX: Yes I think so. INT: You didn’t see anything in the paper then? I think there were a few things but I’m not sure

when it was. MSX: Well we don’t get a paper every day, we only buy one if we are down that way shopping. INT: Would you say the river plays a part in your life at all? MSX: Not really no. INT: What about the rest of the local community generally. Do you think it’s important to them

or not? MSX: The kids seem to like going down there. They put the rope over from the other side of the

river and swing over onto this side. INT: Do they? MSX: It’s dangerous. INT: Do you think the river plays a part in the local landscape around here? MSX: Oh yes, it’s nice when you go on the bus to go over that bridge and you look back and it

looks nice and tidy now. INT: The people that did the project, do you think they took into account how local people use

the river when they were planning it? MSX: I wouldn’t have thought so. To me they seemed to be over the other side working not on

this side. I think they were chopping trees down on the other side but not this side.

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INT: So you would have liked to have seen them do more work on this side? MSX: Yes. INT: What would you have liked to see them do? MSX: Well clearing the nettles and the bracken. If any of the bairns had fallen you would never

have found them among that lot. INT: Do you think of the river as being local property, belonging to the local community? Mrs S. Yes. INT: Would you say that you feel involved with the river in any way? MSX: No not at all. I just know it’s there and that’s it. INT: Do you think other people around here perhaps feel more involved than you do in the river

and what goes on there? MSX: All the street take their bairns down there and feed the ducks. You see some from other

streets coming down with bread for them. INT: Do you think it’s important that people planning projects like this take into account how

people use the river? MSX: Yes I should think so. [Inaudible] INT: What do you think the people that did the project were trying to achieve? What were they

trying to do down there? MSX: Well to make it a lot better than it was. I mean you couldn’t see the river before. INT: One of the things they said they wanted to do was to try and make the river look a bit more

natural than it was. If I were to ask you how you would describe a natural river, what would you say to me?

MSX: Well just that it’s nice and clean. INT: What would you think a natural river would look like, the landscape and that sort of thing? MSX: Well I don’t know. There were an awful lot brambles down there and you couldn’t get to

it, and the nettles and everything. It’s a shame really. It’s just the dogs that go right down there.

INT: Do you think natural rivers have lots of vegetation or trees and things? MSX: Oh yes they do.

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INT: Would you say that you thought the people that did the project think of a natural river in

perhaps a different way than you would? MSX: Probably yes. I mean have they finished now? INT: Well they are still doing bits and pieces. They have got to put the new bridge in. MSX: Oh yes somebody else said there was going to be a new bridge. INT: Yes there’s going to be a new bridge near Five Arches. MSX: That will be lovely. INT: I think they are doing a bit of planting and things. Do you think that today it’s practical to

think about restoring the river to it’s natural state or not? MSX: Oh yes because then you will get fish in it. Somebody said the fish were all poisoned down

there, they said that somebody put something in there. INT: Do you think the idea of what they were trying to do down there is a good idea? MSX: Well yes they have definitely made it better. It’s lovely for those flats, they are looking

down onto it and the trees, yes it’s lovely around there. INT: Before they did the project, how natural do you think the river looked? MSX: Well there were all sorts in it. It was terrible. INT: Would you say it looks more natural now than before? MSX: Oh yes. It’s lovely and clean the river itself . INT: What about if you compare it to other rivers that you know. Do you think it’s more or less

natural than they might be? MSX: Oh I don’t know. It’s better because it used to smell something terrible. INT: And it doesn’t now? MSX: No, it’s quite nice. INT: Some people say that we have tamed our rivers and controlled most of the rivers in the

country, do you think that’s true? MSX: Could be yes. As I say it is a lot better than the Tees isn’t it. INT: Do you think it matters that we control our rivers like that or not?

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MSX: Well yes I think you have got to control them of course. They need to be controlled. INT: Why do you think they have to do that? MSX: Well they just get overrun don’t they. I mean it was before. You could hardly tell it was a

river before. INT: Really? Was there a flooding problem around here? MSX: Yes there was. I have seen it come right up to the road. Not lately, a few years ago. INT: Do you think that controlling the river makes it more or less natural? MSX: Well it hasn’t flooded for a few years now, they have got it flowing better. As I say I don’t

go down there that much. INT: Do you think the project has been a scientific project? MSX: Yes I think so. INT: Have you got any idea what sort of science or knowledge you would need to do a project

like that? MSX: Well you have got to be professional I would image. INT: Do you know what sort of things would you need to know? MSX: No not really. INT: Do you think the people that did the project know what they are doing, they know how to

restore rivers? MSX: Yes I should imagine so, it’s their job isn’t it. INT: Would you say that you trusted them to take care of the river? MSX: Oh yes. INT: Do you think that there is still a lot that they probably need to learn about this sort of thing? MSX: Not really, I think they did really well. INT: You think they did most of it. MSX: I think really it is basically those people living in the flats facing it that know more about it

than me really. They are looking at it every day. INT: Yes so you only really go down there on a Sunday perhaps you said?

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MSX: We haven’t been for a while. It’s lovely further over,where they are looking at it. INT: Do you think when they put the new bridge in that you will use it? MSX: I should imagine so if it’s somewhere different. As I said we just go down there and round

back down here, so it would be better. INT: Is there still a lot of vandalism? MSX: Yes. INT: It’s a shame isn’t it. MSX: Well you wouldn’t go down there on your own. I wouldn’t. INT: Is that during the day as well? MSX: Yes. There are people in the allotments but I still wouldn’t go down on my own. INT: Do you think there has been a lot of interest or not really much? MSX: Not really I don’t think people took much notice really. INT: Ok, well I think that’s about it, thanks very much.

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 20 – 11th FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Can I start by asking whether or how successful you think the project has been? Or

whether you think it’s been a success and in what ways you think it has or hasn’t been? MsX: Well I think when you walk along the bank now, especially towards Horton where it widens

out, there are far more people walking up and down beside the river, especially families with dogs and that sort of thing. I mean there were times in the past, on a really nice day, when I would be walking along there because my mother used to live in xxxxx, and I’d walk along there and not see a soul on a Sunday afternoon, and the paths were so full of water and so mucky that you always had to wear your Wellington boots for a start. But lately, it’s got really busy, it’s a really popular place and you can see the difference with the water as it is now and all the sort of undergrowth and the wildlife. It’s really becoming very popular. It’s certainly done wonders for the people actually using the river.

INT: OK. Do you think it’s provided more recreation opportunities for people or not? MsX: I don’t know about opportunities. I think a lot of people are just not aware it’s there

anyway and are not going to go and use the river, but I think a lot of children maybe, and parents who might have done other walks or taken the car and gone somewhere, will now walk along beside the river and it certainly had that benefit I think.

INT: Right. Can you think of any other ways that you think it may have been a success ... the

project? MsX: Well certainly attracting the wildlife. We’ve got far more water birds there than we ever

used to see in the past. INT: Right. MsX: And I think from a sort of an aesthetic viewpoint, it’s a lot more attractive to look at now. INT: Do you think, as far as perhaps something like conservation is concerned, that it will have

any impact at all? MsX: I would hope so. It’s a bit difficult really. I mean I know there are ponds nearby where

these great crested newts are supposed to be and nobody that I know has ever seen one, but we don’t like to go too close because you’re worried that you might spoil the habitat, but then on the other hand, people still do dump rubbish in a lot of these places.

Mr X enters the room and joins the conversation. INT: Hello MrX: Hello. Are you the lady who’s going to answer all the questions about the river? INT: Am I going to answer some, well if I can. MrX: You know the bridge where it goes to on the £5 note - what I call Dobbin Bridge, because

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you know ????? - is it going to go through there and to the town eventually, or not? INT: There were no original plans for it to do that with this particular project, but I mean I have

heard it mentioned, but I don’t know of any ... MrX: Because I’ve been on the other side you see, to have a look, and of course there is rough

ground for so long but then it goes into buildings before it gets to Chisnup Street, and I just wondered if they were going to carry on there.

INT: I don’t think there are any plans at the moment, but that’s partly because there isn’t enough

funding available. MrX: No. And it is also a shame that on this side it doesn’t carry on beside the river, the road

does, but there isn’t a path, so you have to go up past those houses which is a bit of a pain. Because I’m off work at the moment, ... every day I go along there you see just to sort of get some fresh air, you know, I’m getting better now ??? but I look at the birds and the wrens and everything else. I always say it’s just a pity that when it’s wet like this you can’t carry on on the walk because obviously it’s puddly isn’t it. Anyway, sorry about that.

INT: That’s all right. OK. You’ve mentioned a number of things there, a number of ways in

which you think it’s been a success. What would you see as being the most important of those for you?

MsX: I think the look of it as well as the fact that because we now have these curves and bends

and it’s slowed everything down, we also have the extra wildlife. It’s a lot more interesting looking at the river if you walk along. I mean, I must admit when I first came to live here I just thought it was a dirty old canal. I didn’t even know it was the River Skerne until someone pointed out that it joined the river in the town. So really, instead of just a concrete bank it’s improved it immensely.

INT: What do you see as being the most important benefit for you then, of the project? Would it

be those things that you’ve just mentioned? MsX: Yes, and the fact that we can now use the river sort of all year round, you know, the

pathways are so much better than they were. In the middle of winter you couldn’t go down for weeks on end. It would be totally muddy and covered in ice and very slippery too.

INT: Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do the project, did you have any

particular idea or image of what it was going to be like, or a particular expectation? MsX: Well I must admit when we first heard about it, and we saw the plans, I really thought there

was going to be a bridge to the other side and nowhere near as far as having to walk to Haughton first, and we all imagined a rather attractive bridge somewhere where it sort of widens out and we’ve got that grassy area where the houses come down. I thought somewhere there there might be a bridge, because the other side, as it always does, looks so nice and you think it would be nice to walk over there, and yet I never have done because I never go right into Haughton and then cross over. It’s always too long a stretch, so you see people on the other bank and you think, I thought we were going to be able to walk over there.

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INT: There is still going to be a new bridge put in. It was delayed because of funding problems,

but as far as I know, last time I spoke to someone it was due to go in in June I think. And that would be near Five Arches.

MsX: Would it? Yes. That would be the area that I would have thought it would be a good idea

really. INT: I think from one of the early surveys before the scheme, when people were asked where

they would prefer a second bridge to be, that was the most popular location. MsX: Well there are so many houses close to that really, on our side anyway, that I can

understand it would suit a lot of people. INT: That’s right. Sorry, did you say you had any ... you said you thought there might be a

bridge ... what I was going to ask you was how does the river compare now to how perhaps you expected it to be before they did it?

MsX: Well I was told there would be picnic areas and that sort of thing too, to get people to stay. INT: Who told you that? Can you remember, because you’re the second person today that’s said

that? MsX: I think it was the lady that came round the first time and showed me the plans and talked

about it. I think she sort of said, you know, we’re trying to get families and people to actually stay and there might be a picnic area. And again, I imagined that. I thought that would be nice maybe in the flatter area, where it widens out.

INT: Was that in the interview with the person from Middlesex, do you remember? MsX: I think so. Probably, because that was the only time I’ve had a really long talk about it. INT: Right. There has been a local Community Liaison Officer who was appointed by the

project who has dealt with lots of local residents and I didn’t know whether it would have been her.

MsX: I don’t think it was a local person. It certainly wasn’t in plans that we saw at the Town

Hall, or the library. INT: No it certainly wasn’t at all planned, and I’m wondering whether ??????????? because it

certainly wasn’t planned to have any like official type of picnic area. MsX: Because I must admit I thought immediately it might be like Richmond and the River

Swale, where people do go down and picnic a lot by the water there, and it’s extremely popular in the summer. And I had that kind of picture in my mind.

INT: Would you say it looks better or worse than you perhaps imagined it would be? MsX: I think worse at the moment because I always imagined when all the plants have grown and

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all the bulrushes are big and everything’s sort of bushy, and I imagined all the concrete covered and of course it isn’t yet, you know, it’s a slow business, so obviously it’ll be a few years before it will sort of match my mind’s eye picture of it.

INT: I know you were interviewed before, but were you involved in any other form of the

consultation that went on about the project? MsX: No, not at all. INT: Did you hear that there were other sort of public meetings, an exhibition at the library, that

sort of thing? MsX: Yes, I did, because we saw the exhibition. INT: Right. MsX: Because I go to the library quite regularly, getting books for school. INT: But you didn’t go to the meetings? MsX: No, I’m afraid I didn’t have time. INT: Do you know whether any other local people really had, or were able to participate or

contribute to the design of the river? MsX: No, I don’t know of anybody else. I mean I’ve only talked to neighbours in the street and

none of them even were interviewed as far as I know. INT: Oh right. MsX: No. But most of our neighbours are out all day long and it just happened that I was

working eight tenths. I had two afternoons off each week and it was one of those when she called round, so I just happened to be in.

INT: Yes. I mean they did actually call in the evenings as well. MsX: Yes. I expect so. But nobody seems to have ... maybe they just said they were too busy. INT: I’m just wondering whether you can think of any ways that people like yourself, local

residents, could have been more involved in the project in any way? MsX: I don’t know really. I don’t know whether they might have asked us if there were any

certain plants we wanted to have around here, or any ideas for colour or how the final effect would look with shrubs and trees perhaps, there might have been. I mean obviously you can’t pick the wildlife. That comes and you hope that you get the balance right, that you have the right kind of wildlife, don’t you, but perhaps there might have been something like that. I don’t know.

INT: Do you feel though that people did have a chance to have some sort of an input?

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MsX: Oh I think so. I think if you were interested. By the time the exhibition had arrived ... I

mean a lot of people said later they didn’t know it was happening, but it had been mentioned in the paper. There were several articles I’d read and you know, if you really wanted to know you could find out.

INT: Yes. Do you have any idea whether you think the consultation process was a success at

all? MsX: I don’t think I can really comment on that. No. INT: Would you say you were satisfied with what you knew had actually taken place? MsX: Well I think so. As I say if you really wanted to know, you could. INT: Could you think of any ways perhaps in which it could have been improved at all? MsX: The only other thing is, if you didn’t have a local paper, if you didn’t read the free ones that

come through the door to us, perhaps there should have been a few posters in local shops, that kind of thing, to say it was going to happen, or just to advertise, the library display, something like that.

INT: How much do you feel local people should be involved and consulted about things like this? MsX: Well I think any consultation’s always good, but you get a certain amount of people that

just don’t want to know anyway, however much you try to involve them, they just aren’t interested, and I know I’ve talked to people since who’ve said oh what’s happened to the river, oh I haven’t been there in 10 years and I don’t think I’ll go again, so you know, there are some people who just don’t see it as an amenity or something that would enrich their lives in any way really.

INT: No, that’s true. I realise that from talking to people. Do you look upon the river as

playing a particular part in your life at all? MsX: I think it did. When my mother was ill I used to always go to see her that way because if

I’d walked along the road it was a quarter of an hour’s walk to her house, but if I went down by the river it was about half of that time, about 7 minutes, so even at Christmas time ... I remember when she was really ill and she couldn’t come to us on Christmas Day, I went with the boys and we walked in the snow, and it was one of those Christmas Days when it snowed heavens high, and we walked all the way across there and all the way back, and they were singing carols on the way back, and I thought it’s just so nice, such a lovely sort of little visit and to watch the river as we went by and look at the ice and the birds, so I used to use it an awful lot at one time certainly, and it was always a very pleasant way to go and see her.

INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the lives of the local community generally around

here? MsX: I wouldn’t say generally, I’d say perhaps for 10 to 20% it does. And I think single people

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on their own, often do walk up and down beside the river and go on walks, and I know some men in particular who find it so useful. Now that my husband’s been ill, he’s done the same. You know, you get away from kind of humanity, a little bit of nature, and you can also have the fresh air of the walk along the banks, and it does I think fulfil a need for a lot of people, and if you don’t want to sort of just walk along the streets and the road, you’ve got that chance to get away from the traffic.

INT: Yes. That’s right. Do you see the river as being an important part of the local landscape? MsX: Oh yes, very much so really, yes. I like the way that, so often now, the houses are built

with a view of the river or a walkway down to it. All the latest smaller buildings and flats have been used so that the river is there as something to look at, something to use. They’re not kind of blocking it off which is what they used to do in the old housing, and the fences were there and the river was behind the fence. But now, we definitely seem to realise that people want to look at it and have the chance to use it.

INT: Yes, that’s a good point actually. Do you think that the way local people use the river was

considered, was sort of taken into account by the RRP when they were designing the project?

MsX: Well I think so, in that they found the paths as we said before, in most of the places it’s

right where you want it. I think the only time when they perhaps didn’t think about that was when the area that’s now rather boggy ... and it does get very boggy, any wet months ... and the houses are built sort of right on a little bank behind that area, that’s where the path should have carried on round the river, to take all the walkers away from the poor people who live in those houses, and their main living room goes right down ... the window’s right down to the floor ... and at the moment we more or less walk right past the windows all the time, and I feel that’s an intrusion of their privacy and it spoils the sort of quietness of their view, to know that people come right past their house, whereas if they’d thought about that and talked to the people there, they would have made the path go just beside the river, and then they would have had a stretch of area like a back garden or a front garden before they could see all the people walking by with the dogs. I really do feel that that was a mistake, they should have built the path there, rather than forcing everybody away from that boggy area of land and walking across somebody’s window when they’re trying to watch television.

INT: Do you think they should have put a second footpath like the one they put on the other

bank, along the north bank? MsX: I think so. I suppose, I presume at the time, they put the footpath where the greatest weight

of people were walking, the biggest number of people walked, maybe they walked to them and found out how many used both banks. Or do you think it was just that there was housing on one side and more open fields and ...

INT: I think it possibly was for that reason to try and keep people away from the local houses,

like you said, it was too intrusive. That could have been the reason, although I’m not sure about that. I wouldn’t like you to quote me on it, because you know I don’t know really, but I think that may have been the reason. Yes, it could have been. I mean do you think it’s important then that the way local people use an area like that should be taken into

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consideration when people are planning projects? MsX: Yes I think so. I think obviously if you’re going to do something to the stretch of water for

instance, and you know that you’re trying to make it better for the town and the local people, to make it more attractive, then I presumed at first that they would go and say, you know, who uses it and what do you use it for and is it used at all by anybody, or is it just disregarded as a dirty little mucky stretch of water? So, I would have thought they would have done that first really.

INT: I don’t know if you think of it as being ... of belonging to the local community in any way,

as being sort of local property? MsX: I don’t know really, I think we just feel it runs through on its way somewhere else. The

river is the river. I mean I’ve been doing topics at school on rivers and I’ve learnt a lot about them lately, but I must admit I never ever used to think about rivers as a child or growing up, they were just either there or they weren’t, or you went to see a particular beauty spot, if it happened to be beside a river well that was very nice, but you know, I’ve realised a lot more lately that we’re really quite dependent on them and we’re trying to keep them as clean as possible and we’re trying to get people to realise how important rivers are, but having said that I think a lot of people who live in Darlington are not aware of the Skerne, where it is, behind our houses, and my husband makes a point of often taking guests we’ve had for lunch to go and walk down there and see where it goes behind the allotments and Five Arches bridge, and a lot of people just living in the west end of town had no idea that this is there and they’ve never seen the Dobbin bridge and they don’t know that it’s still standing even and they just live a few miles away from it. So it’s a kind of a west end of town people don’t go to the river, because it’s just like London, the north’s considered the poorer area with less attractive housing and who’d want to go and have a look round there. So we do tend to, if we have anybody over to the house and they haven’t ever seen the Skerne, we say let’s just go for a walk and take you and show you how it’s getting on. So I suppose in that way you do kind of take them for granted, and a lot of people in town think they know all about the river because they go to the Tees, they go to ??? and they walk around the Tees but they’ve never actually come to this part of town to walk around the Skerne.

INT: Do you know much about the local history of the river at all? MsX: No, I can’t say I do. I’ve just done it from a geographical point of view at school. INT: Right. So you know now sort of where the river comes from and where it goes to and that

sort of thing? MsX: Yes, and where the Tees begins and where it finishes and how the Skerne joins the Tees,

that kind of thing. INT: I just wondered how much value people might attach to the sort of historical aspects or

importance of the river around here? Would you know about that? MsX: I don’t know. No not really. I do know that we see a lot of pictures of Darlington when it

used to be really muddy and when the river used to flood and the Horton area was badly

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flooded. Apparently even the market place used to sort of fill with water and it used to pour down into the Skerne from the market place. It was such a muddy area in the centre town, so things have changed a lot.

INT: OK. One of the things that the restoration project was trying to do, one of their aims was

to restore the river to a more sort of natural condition. Now, if I were to ask you to think about what a natural river would be like, or to describe a natural river, how would you describe it to me? I don’t necessarily mean the river here ... sort of concept of a natural river.

MsX: It’s a sort of a ... I would say when it’s near its source somehow, when it’s fast moving, I

always think of a river like that, really rushing along, and sort of playing on the stones, and carrying things with it, and all the wildlife sort of rushing with it or moving with it, and trees and branches. I mean once it gets to be slow moving and sort of meandering, I don’t think rivers are quite so exciting and you don’t tend to go .... apart from I suppose the swimming side of it ... my husband always used to swim in the river ... the River Swale, because he’s a Richmond boy ... and then of course you go for a sort of gentle meandering area, but that’s never appealed to me in the same way. I prefer it when it’s higher up and there’s a bit of a movement to the water. The sound I think is important, the sound of a river.

INT: Any particular features that you would sort of expect to see in a river? MsX: I think it’s always nice to see all the stones and rocks and I know my sons, like so many

boys, loved skimming stones across the river, and they’d skim the Swale and the Tees, and of course you can’t in the Skerne because it’s too narrow, but that’s something they’ve always enjoyed in a wide broad river. Stones, and sort of going down to the shingly beach effect, when you get down this side of the river, it’s exciting. And then just looking at the tree roots and things when the water goes back and the roots are exposed and children are often fascinated to see how that happens.

INT: OK. How natural do you think the river here looked before they did the project? You

mentioned earlier it was just like a straight canal ... MsX: It didn’t look at all natural. It looked pretty awful really. In fact my husband used to say

it’s more like an open sewer because so many people had dropped rubbish in it too and just didn’t bother with it. A great deal of sort of sold supermarket trolleys and paper bags and tin cans just thrown in, and I don’t think really ... we did see birds, but I used to wonder how on earth they survived. It was pretty bad. It didn’t look attractive. I didn’t bother to look in it very often as I walked along.

INT: Compared to what it’s like now then, how attractive do you think it looks now compared to

before? MsX: Oh I would say about 10 times more attractive really. INT: Compared to perhaps other rivers that you’ve mentioned, the Swale or the Tees, how

natural do you think this looks now compared to those?

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MsX: Well it’s not quite as good as those yet is it, but I would say it’s about half way there, the sort of meanders that they’ve built in are very attractive and when we had the little sort of island in the middle and birds on it and everything’s building around ... it’s beginning to look like a real river to me.

INT: How feasible do you think it is to talk about restoring rivers these days? MsX: Oh I think it is really. I mean, so often people tend to say oh no that won’t work before

they’ve tried it. It’s only when you see how things change and I mean, when you think of how we’ve changed in our lifestyles and how we change attitudes towards food and drugs and cigarettes and so many things, why can’t we change the environment too. I never feel that you should say oh no that’s not possible. Have a go and see is what I think we should do really.

INT: Some people say that we’ve tamed the River Skerne, that we’ve tamed lots of rivers in the

country now. Do you think that’s true? That we control them? MsX: Yes, it’s funny, I was just talking about a river, the Nile actually, just yesterday to some

children, because I was reading an old geography book about the Aswan Dam and then I read an article quite recently which said that in fact by building the Aswan Dam they’ve stopped all the people along the Nile from spreading the mud that used to move into the fields and the Dam itself often loses a lot of water evaporation every year and with hindsight they’ve realised that man doesn’t always get it right and I was able to point that out to the children because we’d sort of read now that we’ve got the Aswan Dam, Egypt’s problems are solved, and this was sort of 1970 this book, you know, and I pointed out to them that we’re always learning, nature is always surprising us and you know, we can make mistakes all the time with our weather and you know, things like building a reservoir, building a dam, and what works in England might not work in Egypt, so it’s so true isn’t it, that you think you’ve got the answer and then 20 years later people are smiling and saying well you know, we’ve got to change this or go back to that.

INT: Do you think we can control rivers really? MsX: Oh I think we know more and more and obviously all the time we’re improving in our

knowledge and we understand the wildlife better and we see the balance of nature better. I mean there was no mention of things like the balance of nature when I was growing up in xxxx in the 50s and even looking after creatures and pets, we did a lot of silly things that people wouldn’t do now. And yet you can go to somewhere like France on holiday and see the kind of cruelty that hasn’t happened in this country for 50 years and they’re still behind us that way. So you know we’re always evolving and changing I think.

INT: Do you think rivers naturally change over time as well even without human influences? MsX: Oh yes, that’s right. That’s another thing that I keep pushing, this ??? position and the

erosion with the children at school, you know, we look at photographs and see how rivers have changed and we’ve got lots of diagrams, so yes I’m sure they change all the time.

INT: Do you really think it matters though that we do control rivers in the way that we do? Do

you think it’s necessary?

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MsX: Well I still sort of believe in this biblical thing that man is supposed to look after the rest of

the world and the animals really, and on the whole, we tend to use rivers in a good way, to improve our lives, to feed ourselves, to move things along more quickly, use them as a form of transport. I know along the way we’ve messed things up, we’ve polluted the water, and we’re trying to put things right, we’re trying to clean it up. I still feel the overall idea is usually good, it’s just often people make mistakes along the way, so I don’t see that man should just leave a river and say we mustn’t touch it, we mustn’t have nothing to do with it, if it can benefit mankind and equally benefit other creatures or other sort of forms of life because we’ve learnt about them then that’s OK.

INT: Do you think by controlling rivers it makes them more or less natural at all? MsX: Well I think it did in the past because we tended to say I want it to go this way, so we’ll

have it going this way, and we don’t want that kink or that curve, a bit like we did with roads, but I think little by little we’ve realised that there’s a reason for the curves and that they are attractive to look at and obviously slowing the water down can have an effect as different things grow, different plants grow and you have a different habitat don’t you with the slower water, so yes I suppose it’s a good idea to shape the river perhaps but to be aware of just making everything simple and neat.

INT: Do you think it’s still possible for a river to be natural or to look natural even though it has

been controlled by humans? MsX: Oh yes, I mean I’ve taken the children to the Tees Barrage last year. I took my class and

we talked about the work they’ve done there in Middlesborough and that is so attractive and it’s changed the whole look of the river and it’s brought tourists there and it’s brought people to conferences and all these sporting events that take place at the Barrage, and it’s really become a big sort of concern in all sorts of ways for Middlesborough. And it’s lifted that town I think quite honestly, having the Barrage and all the other things there, they’ve got a model of the Endeavour that attracts people, and the shopping areas are really nice. In fact several children in my class had been already and then said they wanted to go and do the ??? and some children had been with their parents a lot of times since then during the summer. So I think it’s quite an amenity, that big Barrage there.

INT: You think having a feature like a Barrage sort of detracts from the natural ...? MsX: No, no way. It’s made a big difference to the area, definitely. INT: It has? Right. Do you think that the restoration project here has been scientific at all? MsX: I should think so, I mean, I can’t same I’m sure but I think they’ve gone into it in a sort of a

scientific and a natural way, environmental and scientifically they’ve worked out what to do.

INT: Would you have any idea what sort of knowledge would be needed to do a project like this? MsX: I should think you’d need a few experts really, people who understand about water and the

weight of water and how things move as well as all the animal and botanical experts too.

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INT: Any other sort of knowledge that you think might be ...? MsX: I suppose they’ve had to have the people who have the building know-how, sort of the

digging and the geological knowledge. INT: To what extent then do you think that the people that did the project, the RRP, know how to

restore rivers? Do you think they’ve got this sort of necessary knowledge? MsX: I should think so otherwise it probably would look a total mess. INT: Would you say that you, in a sense, trusted them to know what they’re doing to sort of take

care of the river? MsX: Oh yes, I think so, I’m sure they did. And when it comes to sort of doing things on a

budget they knew exactly how much to spend and how much they needed and from what I hear they haven’t gone totally over the top or spent too much, so you presume it’s been pretty efficient really.

INT: Have you got any idea perhaps of what else might need to be investigated or learnt about

restoring rivers? MsX: No, I don’t know. INT: Would you say overall that you approve of what’s been done? MsX: Oh yes. INT: Is there anything else that you would .. any other comments that you would like to make

about the project or about what’s been done down there at all? MsX: I don’t think so, apart from the fact that it always annoys me that people can’t leave things

alone and already there is rubbish being thrown in there and certain things have been messed about with, you know, it’s just typical of our nation unfortunately, that we can’t just appreciate the beauty without somebody sort of jumping in and messing around and spoiling things. And that always annoys me when I think of the money that’s been spent. I know so far it’s only a small amount, but you know, it’s a sort of wearing away of things, isn’t it, that does go on.

INT: Yes, that’s true. I mean, do you know whether there is much vandalism down there? MsX: I don’t think there’s been a lot yet, but we did see certain things right at the start, and they

do get worse, you know, trees that can’t be left alone and that kind of thing. INT: OK. Well I think that’s covered most of the things I wanted to ask you about. Can you

think of any sort of groups of people who might feel particularly involved with the river at all?

MsX: I know that there is a group in Darlington that go out and they do tidy things up all over

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the place, I forget what they’re called now. They meet somewhere down North Road. It’s an environmental little group that people can join and they do help to tidy things, and clean things up. I think they cleaned up Dringford which is a pond area over the North Road that we used to live near at one time, so I’m sure they would definitely want to have something to do with it, but I don’t know of any other organisations.

INT: Would you say that you particularly feel involved with the river at all, or not? MsX: No. INT: No, not really. I think that’s about it. Would you know whether or how much perhaps

restoring a river like this may sort of help in managing the river at all? Do you think it would be good for environmental management to do something like this?

MsX: Management ... do you mean like sort of looking after the river, caring for it? INT: I’m thinking compared to perhaps how it used to be before the project? MsX: Yes, I think maybe we need the group of people or some sort of society to kind of oversee it

or check on it. That might be better really. I mean however much you do at the time, there’s that period when you go away and everybody has to learn to sort of live with it and accept it. I think maybe that’s when we could do with a group, some kind of sort of society maybe that care about it and kind of oversee it.

INT: Does it worry you, would you say you were concerned at all about how the river is going to

be managed in the future now that they’ve done the restoration project or have you not really thought about it?

MsX: Well I know when I go down there I think about it, but as soon as I’m back home and doing

other things I don’t, but ... INT: OK, thanks very much for your comments and your time anyway. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 21 – 11th FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Do you visit the river very much these days? MrX: Not as much as I used to. As I said last time, we had a dog and I was down every night

with the dog, but since the dog died, not so often now. A couple of times at weekends we walk down with the pram. We walk right along the bank, but about three times this year I would think, that’s all. Since last summer.

INT: Right. You’re familiar with what’s been done down there? MrX: Yes. INT: Yes. OK. Can I start then by asking you how successful you think the restoration scheme

has been or whether you think it’s been a success at all, or perhaps why you may think it has or it hasn’t?

MrX: Oh it’s definitely been a success. I mean it’s really tidied that area up. It’s pleasant, it’s

a nice walk. It seems to have stopped the vandalism. INT: Has it? MrX: Yes, it seems to have. INT: Oh, that’s good. Any other ways that you think it may have been successful? MrX: It’s successful as far as the wildlife ... there’s a lot more wildlife down there. It just makes

it a more pleasant environment really, I mean, it seems as though they’re building on old wasteland and at least that’s a nice piece of wasteland that’s been turned into something attractive.

INT: Yes. And out of those things you’ve mentioned, what would you see as being the most

important thing? MrX: The most important thing is making it better for the wildlife, I would think. We’ve got

swans down there now, and ... we’ve always had ducks down there, but there’ve never been the swans down there. There are swans down there now.

INT: For you, what would you see as being the most important benefit from the project? MrX: For me personally? I don’t know really. It’s just a nicer environment. ??? rubbish heap

and junk being dumped, whereas if it’s nice people tend to keep it that way, whereas if it’s just a bit of wasteland they tend to dump all their rubbish out on to it and that. So it’s quite pleasant at the moment. Whether it stays like that is another matter.

INT: Do you think it’s made people take perhaps more care, looking after the place, not dropping

litter and things? MrX: I think so, yes.

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INT: Yes. MrX: Yes, if it’s tidy to start with, I mean once people start dumping rubbish that’s when you start

getting everybody else dumping ... INT: Can you think of any other benefits perhaps for other people that might visit the river? Or

use the river at all? MrX: Well there’s no such thing as fishing or anything like that, so it’s not going to be beneficial

as far as fishing ... it’s just nice for walking. INT: Right. Can you remember when you heard that they were going to do the project, can you

remember what your initial expectations were, what you expected it to be like? Or how you imagined it would be like?

MrX: I imagined it just being ... just tidying up the banks, I didn’t realise they would start altering

the flow of the river, it was just a matter of tidying up the banks, maybe planting a few trees. But I must admit I was quite surprised, the way they’ve actually ... they’ve put a complete new path from one end to the other which .. there was just a bit of mud path that made with a bit of ??? down, whereas they’ve actually concreted a proper path now, the whole length of that stretch, which is more than I expected. I didn’t expect them doing that.

INT: Do you think that’s a good thing? MrX: Oh yes. INT: I was going to say how does it compare now with what your initial expectations were? MrX: It’s a lot better. Definitely a lot better, yes. Because at least now you can walk it now

whereas in bad weather it was always clart and mud and dog dirt etc. Now at least you can see where you’re walking.

INT: You said it’s much better than you expected, you’ve got the path now. What other ways is

it perhaps better than you thought it would be? MrX: Well I think they’ve tended to make it look a bit more natural whereas it was just a straight

river where you could walk either side, and now it meanders in and out and there’s a big lagoon there now. So it makes it a bit more natural.

INT: Would you say the river plays a part in your life at all, or what part it might play? MrX: Not really no. I can’t ... no. INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the life of the local community generally around

here? MrX: I can’t see how it plays a part in anybody’s life. It’s a nice thing to have, and it’s nice to

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look out on to, and it’s nice to walk, but I don’t see how it can actually play a part ... I don’t really know how to answer that. To play a part it’s got to do something, I mean either you’ve got to have boating or you’ve got to have fishing or .... it’s got to have some community type of atmosphere, but here it’s just there, it’s just nice to be there and it’s nice to be tidy.

INT: Do you see it as being an important part of the local landscape? MrX: It’s definitely important in the landscape, yes. Because over that side it was very

industrial at one time, and tends to hide the industrial aftermath because there was a lot of ... well yon side, but they’ve tidied that up as well, because there was a lot of old buildings etc., that’s all come down, and more trees, it hides all the industrial ...

INT: Do you know much about the local history of the area and the river around here? I don’t

know whether you grew up around here? MrX: I didn’t grow up around here. I grew up in Darlington, but not round here. I was more on

the other side of town where we had the old beck, which runs into the Skerne a bit further on. I know the Skerne actually comes from the pit workings and that it was always dirty water, and it’s definitely got cleaner now to what it was when we first moved here. I think a lot of the water now tends to come from Fujitsu now, so they say.

INT: From where? MrX: Fujitsu. It’s a factory at Aycliffe. INT: Oh right. MrX: It makes processors. Computer type processors. So lots of water from there goes into it,

but initially I think it was from old pit workings, wasn’t it? It seemed to come down all different colours at one time.

INT: Really? MrX: It’s a lot cleaner now, but then again all the pits are closed down now. INT: Do you know much about the River Skerne itself generally, where it starts and where it goes

to, where it ends, that sort of thing? MrX: I know where it ends, yes. In Croft. INT: Have you visited much of the other parts of the river? MrX: Yes, I’ve seen, over the years, even when we were kids on bikes, we used to go down on

bikes and ride to Croft etc. so ... I know exactly where it runs from and where it goes to. INT: Do you think it has much historical value to local people, the river, or not? MrX: No, I don’t think so. No.

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INT: You don’t think so, no. MrX: It’s my personal opinion, I don’t ... INT: I’m just thinking because, you know, the picture of Skerne Bridge on the £5 note. MrX: The Five Arch Bridge is. INT: Yes, whether that’s got any ... MrX: Well, that’s obviously .. the only value that’s got is that somebody drew a picture and it was

the first Locomotion No.1 wasn’t it. But if you see the bridge now it bears no resemblance at all to it, that’s the trouble.

INT: That’s true. Would you look upon the river as sort of belonging to the local community in

any way? MrX: Yes, I think you’ve got to look after it and you’ve got to care for it, or it goes back to how it

was. So I think the community feels some responsibility towards the river. INT: Do you think local people feel sort of proud of it at all, particularly since it’s been restored? MrX: I have a sister-in-law who lives further down, now near the Skerne, I think they tend to feel

more for the river and ??? than we do. We walk it because we’ve got the grandchildren now and we walk down with the pushchair on a fine day but a lot of people I wouldn’t think would bother unless you actually lived down there.

INT: Do you feel involved in any way with the river or not? MrX: Not really no. No. INT: No. You can’t think of any other groups or people that might be more involved than you

are? MrX: No, I can’t think of anybody. You tend to get dog owners who maybe feel a bit more

involved. If I walk down there, if you see rubbish or anything you’ll actually pick it up because you feel it’s your job to make it nice, but I don’t know as far as people getting involved that way, no.

INT: Do you think that the way local people use the river was considered when this project was

being planned and designed? MrX: I don’t know how to answer that? INT: You may not know? MrX: I don’t know really. No. All I know, it’s always been a walk, it’s always ... and when the

new estates went up over the years ... I can always remember as a boy, well as a young

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teenager ... it was a bit of an adventure riding along there because it was all a bit industrial really. It still is further along, through the allotments and that, and it’s made it a nice environment for the people on these new estates etc. that’s going up.

INT: Do you think that it’s important though that the way local people use an area like this

should be taken into account when projects like this are being planned? MrX: Everybody got an actual letter to say what they were doing, and then we had the local

Thursday paper where it had all the plans etc. in. They had meetings, which I didn’t go to, but I think most people in the area were informed of the changes, but I don’t know whether they were decided upon before they informed the people. But I know that there were meetings because we were informed that there was open meetings so ... well you definitely need something, it’s no good doing something and then asking people afterwards if they like it. I mean they have to have something put before.

INT: As you said, there were public meetings, there was also an exhibition in the library, I

believe, and some newsletters and things which came round, and I think guided walks along the river.

MrX: I don’t know about the guided walks, were there guided walks? INT: Yes. But you weren’t involved in any of those, apart from the other interviews? MrX: No. No. INT: Right. Do you know whether many other local people around here were particularly

involved in those consultation efforts? MrX: None at all. None on this estate that I know of. My xxxxxx, who lives further down, she

was a bit more involved, she went to the meetings, but I don’t know of anybody on this estate who actually went.

INT: OK. Do you think people had an opportunity to have an input into what was actually

done? MrX: I don’t think so, no. I think they were shown the plans, I mean if anybody objected, they

had the choice of objecting, but I don’t think they would have that much say in actually changing what was already planned.

INT: Right. Do you think it was something that was just presented to people then? MrX: Yes. INT: And even if people had objected, do you think it would have gone ahead or ...? MrX: Well I don’t think there was anything to object to. It wasn’t as though they were going to

put a building up or anything like that. Normally, the impression I get is that they do the plans, they work out what they want and they put it to the public. I don’t know whether the public can actually change it unless it was actually a building where they fully objected, or

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taking up land that was important in some other way. INT: OK. Do you think that local people should be consulted and should be informed of this

sort of thing? MrX: Oh yes. They should be consulted. And they should have a chance of changing it if they

think it is wrong for the environment. INT: Yes. Can you think of any ways in which you could have been more involved in the

consultation if you’d wanted to be? MrX: No. No. INT: Would you consider that the consultation was successful? Would you say you were

satisfied with what went on? MrX: Well I was personally, for the interest that I had in it. I mean there might have been people

who felt they should have more input. INT: Were there any ways in which you think perhaps it could have been done better, improved

in any way? MrX: No, I don’t think so. I think what they’ve done has turned out really well. After all, on

something like that, they’re the experts and they should know ... their ideas, I mean they know from other projects which is the best way to do things, so at the end of the day all we’re interested in is what it looks like, so if they were going to put a big ugly bridge there or something like this, then they could maybe put their input and say well look there’s no way we want this bridge here, but as far as the way it’s gone, it’s turned out quite well.

INT: I mean, you said that they were the experts, how much or to what extent do you think that

the river restoration project people know how to restore rivers? MrX: I think they should know. It seems as though they’ve know there where they’ve made it

more natural looking, they’ve hid the sewers etc. If they don’t know, I mean we have no chance of knowing really.

INT: Would you say that you trusted them to know what they were doing, to take care of the

river? MrX: Yes, I would personally. INT: Do you think that the restoration has been scientific in any way, a scientific sort of project? MrX: Not that I know of, no. No. It’s been beneficial to wildlife as far as trying to attract ...

clean the river up and attract fish back into the river and wildlife back to the river, but I don’t know if there’s anything they’ve actually done which you would class as scientific.

INT: Right. Have you got any idea what sort of knowledge you would need to do a project like

that?

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MrX: Yes, I think I have. You need a good knowledge of wildlife, water, what keeps the water

clean. You’ve got to know how to get oxygen into the water and ... so I think they’ve got to have a good idea of what’s actually involved.

INT: Chemistry of the water, in a sense ... yes. MrX: Yes. INT: Anything else you can think of? MrX: Not really, no. INT: But you think probably that the people that did the river have all of this necessary

knowledge which is needed. MrX: As a team they should have the expertise that’s needed. Or if they haven’t you would have

thought they would have done their homework as far as getting the right environment ... INT: You said that you think they’ve made the river a bit more natural now. One of the aims

of the project was to restore the river to a more natural condition. If I were to ask you to think about what you think a natural river would be like, maybe not necessarily thinking of this river here, but sort of a natural river generally, how would you describe it to me?

MrX: A natural river is where it finds it’s own levels ... it doesn’t often go in a straight line, but it

always finds those points, so instead of going in a straight line it would meander in and out, it would look a bit like a snake I would think, it would be ...

INT: Anything else? Any other features that you might expect to find? MrX: You usually get rocks, etc. boulders which have been washed down from the hills and ...

that covers it really. INT: OK. Do you think that the managers that did the project would have a similar type of view

of a natural river? MrX: I think so because they’ve tried to make it ... little bits of waterfalls etc. where it goes to

different levels and opening out into wider stretches and narrower again, and they’ve tended to try and make it a more meandering type of route rather than just ... I mean at one time this was a straight river and once a year they used to come and dig all the weeds out, so I mean the bank sides got deeper and it was more or less to stop the flooding. Now, I don’t know what it would be like as far as flooding now ... It was just a straight stretch with weeds either side. And whereas this now, it seems as if they’ve tried to get it different levels as well.

INT: Do you think it’s been a success as far as making it look more natural is concerned? MrX: Yes. Yes.

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INT: You think it looks more natural now than it did before? MrX: Definitely. INT: Compared to other rivers that you may know in the area, does it look natural compared to

some of them, do you think? MrX: The only thing it doesn’t have, the other rivers in the area ... other rivers seem to have a lot

of stones and ???? like that, same as that ... I think this one maybe looks a bit more natural actually.

INT: You think so? MrX: Mmm. INT: Right. Do you think that it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring a river to a natural

state? Do you think it’s really possible? MrX: I think it’s possible, yes. It’s definitely possible, but it’s what people ... different people

have different ideas of what should be natural I suppose. INT: Yes. That’s right. The ideas that you were telling me about, do you think that would be

possible? MrX: I would think so. Yes. INT: Do you think that by ... it’s been said that we’ve tamed rivers or we’ve controlled rivers a

lot here ... would you think the Skerne has been tamed or controlled? MrX: It definitely has, yes. INT: Do you think many other rivers have generally? MrX: I think a lot of the rivers have been tamed. They’ve made the straighter, they’ve taken the

bends out more or less, to stop flooding, etc. They’ve ... Through ??? etc. ... I know at the Tees there’s a lot of sand taken out of the river. They’re just straight and sweeps now, rather than the in and out bends and ... it’s very rare you get like a natural river now unless you go further out into the hills and the countryside.

INT: Do you think it’s possible to restore a river in a town, for example, in an urban area, very

much? MrX: I think they’ve tried the best with the Skerne and I think that’s maybe as far as you could go

with an urban river. INT: Yes. MrX: I don’t know any other way of ... if you look at the Skerne from the bridge, going into town,

I don’t know whether there’s much you could do with that, because of the built up area

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either side of the river. So I think you’re stuck with that type of environment. INT: Do you think it matters that we tame, we control our rivers? Do you think it’s necessary? MrX: It’s necessary in towns, yes. I mean, I was only talking about 10, 15 years ago when there

was all this flooding down the Skerne, it’s only because they built the new houses that they’ve actually changed the river to suit. I mean, this bit down here where the garage is, that was always flooding, so they’ve had to tame the river to stop the flooding.

INT: Do you think that by controlling, by taming the rivers, it makes them more or less natural? MrX: It definitely makes them less natural. But I think you could make it a little bit natural and

still control .. more or less tame the river as well. INT: Right. So you think you can control a river and it would still look or appear to be natural to

a certain extent. MrX: It seems as though they’re changing the ideas ... at one time, they would just dig it out and

make it deeper, and put banks either side to stop the flooding. INT: OK. If you’re thinking about a natural river, of a natural river environment, would you

also imagine sort of things like man-made features along the river at all or not? MrX: No, I don’t think for a natural river you could have man-made features ... you can alter the

course like they have done down there, and you can actually have boulders ??? etc. ... I don’t know, you can maybe have a pier here and there, or something like that, but you can’t exactly have concrete pillars or anything like that. No.

INT: No. No. Have you got any idea of perhaps anything else that needs to be learnt about

restoring rivers? MrX: No I don’t think so. I would think what they know now ... I always class them as the

experts ... if the experts don’t know now, they never will I don’t think, because we’re in an age now where you’ve got to look after the environment and everything’s environmentally friendly now.

INT: Yes. Yes. If I were to say to you that one of the people that worked on the project thinks

that they’ve literally just sort of ... what they’ve done is the tip of the iceberg and that there’s an awful lot more to learn ... would you be surprised at that?

MrX: I would be actually. INT: Would you say that you generally approve of what’s been done down there? MrX: Yes, definitely. INT: Is there anything else you’d like to ... I don’t know if you have any questions you’d like to

ask me, or whether there’s anything else, any other comments that you’d like to make about what’s been done, anything that I haven’t particularly touched on.

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MrX: I would like not so much a ???? but I would like to see something done more going into the

town, into the centre. I don’t think there’s any point in stopping at the bridge and forgetting about the rest. I know it’s difficult because you’ve got a lot of ... a built up area .. .but when you see that ... as we were saying about the photograph on the £5 note and you see the bridge now. I mean it’s a shame really that it’s got into that state. But it’s a shame that the rest going into the town is exactly the same. And it gets nice again after you get to the South Park, so there’s a stretch between ...

INT: In between. Yes. Yes. MrX: But I don’t know what the answer is to that. INT: OK. So you’d like to see that put back. MrX: I’d like to see that tidied up, yes. Definitely. INT: Is there anything else you’d like to see along the stretch here? MrX: No, this stretch is as ... the trees haven’t really grown yet. When the trees are fully grown

and all the shrubs etc., it should be quite nice actually. I don’t think they can approve it much more actually.

INT: Do you think it fits well with the local area generally? MrX: I think so. INT: You don’t think it looks too contrived or ...? MrX: No I don’t think so. No. INT: OK. I don’t think I’ve got anything else. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 22 – 11th FEBRUARY 1998 INT: So you’ve seen what they’ve done, some of it anyway ... MsX: Yes. INT: Can I ask you whether you think that the restoration project that they’ve done down there

has been a success in any way and why you think it might have been or may not have been? I don’t know how you sort of feel about it ...

MsX: I don’t know. It’s hard to say, we’ve not been down. We spend a lot of time down there

in the summer with the kids, I mean, we run up and down all the hills and things like that. There’s nothing really sort of ... you’ve got to make your own fun, but I mean, I think it’s nice how they’ve done the rivers.

INT: Is there anything that you particularly like about it? MsX: It’s a canny walk. When you’re out it’s a nice walk. They’re putting bridges and what

have you across the river. INT: They’re going to put a new one in near Five Arches. MsX: They haven’t done that yet. INT: No. MsX: Because I mean that would be nice as well because ???? we walk one side and go right to

the very top and we would come back down on ourselves, but I mean you’ve got a lot of things to climb over and trees to go through, but we enjoy it in the summer.

A third person (Mrs X) joins the conversation briefly. MrsX: They’ve made another walkpath haven’t they, over near Edmund Street? INT: Yes. Yes. MrsX: How far does that take you? INT: On this side, I think they’ve put a new bit in just by Edmund Street. MrsX: By the bridge isn’t it? INT: Yes, it goes under the bridge. MrsX: I don’t know how far it goes. INT: I don’t think you can get right the way through into town, but I don’t know if there’s been

ideas you know.

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MsX: We enjoy walks and all that but I know they’ve done a lot of work and all that but last time I remember when I was down, do you know where they had the nature ponds, there’s two, they’ve never really done anything to them.

INT: No that was never part of the plan actually. MsX: It wasn’t. What the main thing was ... just the river wasn’t it? INT: Yes. MsX: Nothing else. INT: No. No. Just the river, putting new bends it and ... MsX: And is that it, the bridges. INT: landscaping and stuff like that. MsX: I don’t know whether there are picnic areas and that. You see I was under the impression

that there was going to be like picnic areas and ... INT: Did you? MsX: Oh yes, I’m sure the last time I spoke to somebody they were talking about the river, and

I’m sure they said something about putting picnic areas in. They did, didn’t they? INT: I know that wasn’t part of the original plan, unless there have been any changes since then, I

don’t know. MsX: It was my main sort of thing ... thinking what about the river and the security around it for

kids and that, I didn’t think there was enough. INT: You didn’t. MsX: No because some of it’s not deep and some of it is deep and it’s easy for a kid to sort of

slide down the bank, and it still is that situation where they can go down the bank, and if they slipped in they say that can be a strong current along there, especially down where Five Arches is. That’s a bit ...

INT: So you think it’s less safe than it used to be? MsX: They haven’t improved that at all I don’t think. The only thing they’ve done is sort of

make it look a bit nicer, by doing what they’ve done, but they haven’t done what I assumed they would have done, because really it’s not somewhere where kids go. It’s more for people with their dogs. So when the kids start playing football, but I mean they could do a lot more to it if it involved the kids with it as well. But there’s nothing really for the kids, only to go down and sort of mess about with the water in a bucket, and at Five Arches they can play on the bridge, and ... really they’re not doing anything, it’s just going to be something like a show thing, isn’t it? It’s nothing people can enjoy really.

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INT: Do you think it’s improved the recreation or not down there? Is there anything new? MsX: ????? I’m fascinated with the birds and all that, and the rats. INT: The rats? MsX: I’ve just sort of stood for about half and hour watching this rat. I was really fascinated

with it, you know, and it brought like a lot of people’s attention, we were all just watching this rat, but apart from being the birds and all that ...

INT: Would you think there is more wildlife there now? MsX: No I wouldn’t say, no. There are the ducks ... the swans, there are two swans I think. INT: There were, I don’t think they’re there now. MsX: Have they gone? INT: Yes. MsX: You see then again there’s nothing really sort of warning anybody .... the kids don’t realise

how dangerous swans are. They can be dangerous. If kids were approaching them and going up towards them, they could break a bone on them with their wings and that. They don’t understand like in the duck season and all that, and the kids are often down, the ducks can be vicious and things like that. There’s nothing warning them of ... you know, either how to treat them, and what to do and .... kids are just going down and throwing bits and pieces, stones at them or something.

INT: You said you thought they were going to do picnic areas and all that. Can you remember

when you first heard that they were going to do something there, did you have a sort of an image of what you thought it was going to be like?

MsX: Well yes, I thought there would have been somewhere we could take the kids down to, and

sat and had picnics and something like that. I think I got the wrong impression. I didn’t realise they were just dealing on the actual river side of it, I thought they were going to more to the actual land around it as well as the river. Because I know when you go under the Five Arches there’s quite a rough bit on the other side with all the trees and things like that. I would have thought they’d have done a bit more.

INT: So I mean, do you think that the way you thought it was going to look compared to what it

does look like now, have you been disappointed in any way or ... how does it compare with what you ....

MsX: I am now like, thinking that there was going to be ... well there’s nothing really there for

you is there, just a walk along the river. I mean people like to have a sit down and things like that, don’t they?

INT: So you’re saying you’d have liked to have seen some seats ....

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MsX: I’d like to see more done to it, considering the money they spent on it. It’s like they’ve

given you a false thing isn’t it really. INT: You think so? MsX: Oh yes. Because the way it was getting on, they were making it out to be something, I

don’t know, more to it than what there is now, like a sort of ... I think really, they’ve done this bit of work to it and all that but it’s not really improved it, you know, to what it was before. It’s still the same, only different shapes.

INT: OK. So it’s not offered you anything new, it’s just a different ... visually. MsX: They just patterned it a bit. They’ve done nothing around it. They’ve just done the river

and I was under the impression ... I think it was five bridges, you know, so many bridges being put in ...

INT: Only one was ever mentioned I think. MsX: No, I think I got more than one. INT: Did you? MsX: Oh yes. They were supposed to have one further down from the Five Arches ... coming

back up here ... coming towards the from the Five Arches, and there was supposed to be one put ... there’s houses at the top ... I’m sure there was supposed to have been a bridge put there.

INT: Right. MsX: And then one further up. I’m trying to think of the person that came to me and sat down

and they were describing it all, what they were doing. Was it someone from the college or ...

INT: Was that from Middlesex where I work, Middlesex University? MsX: I’m sure it was. INT: I mean I set up that interview so I know that there was only one bridge that they would have

mentioned to you. MsX: I’m sure there were supposed to have been a couple of bridges. In fact a couple of people

have talked about that. INT: Have they? I don’t know. MsX: ... because there’s quite a few that came round sort of asking questions. INT: I know we ... were you interviewed twice during the ...

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MsX: I think I might have been. INT: Because the first time people were asked where they would prefer a bridge to go, and what

they did was they got most of the responses and then the place where most people wanted it, they decided that’s where it would be, you know.

MsX: It’s obviously where it stopped at the Five Arches ... is that before you go through the

arches or ... INT: Yes, this side. MsX: Yes, so really the other side, nothing’s been done to it has it? INT: All they’ve done I think is cleared on the other side of the bank ... they’ve cleared the path

through so that you can actually get under now and you can walk through, but you can’t go ... I don’t think you can go that far.

MsX: You can’t, you have to stop and come back on yourself. INT: Yes. MsX: So we have fun down there because we go down with the kids and that. I think there was

more adventure to it, you know, I think a lot of people go down ... INT: Before? MsX: Well, even though I don’t like make the trees and all that, putting the swings on them and

swinging across the river and things like that, but kids go down there looking for adventures so they have to make their own up, and they’re going a dangerous way about it. There’s nothing really been designed for them to sort of go down there and enjoy themselves really, only how they’ll go and throw things in the water or mess about getting into bother up at the railway track. You know what I mean, it’s not attracting the kids to the actual ...

INT: What about ... have you seen the pond bits, what they call the backwaters? MsX: The two ponds? INT: It’s not the old ponds. MsX: Oh you mean where they’ve cut it off. INT: Yes. MsX: That’s quite nice, yes. INT: Do you walk the dogs down there? MsX: No. I’ve gone down a few times and had a walk around, but it’s a nice walk and all that,

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but I don’t let the dogs off the leads. And there is a lot of dogs. INT: Yes, there are. MsX: I ???? back now, and I just think well .... INT: So do you see any benefits for you personally from what they’ve done down there or not? MsX: Not really, just the walk. Just walking, that’s all we’ve really got, isn’t it. You can’t do

anything. INT: You said that you were interviewed before but did you know that ... or were you involved in

any of the consultation that went on between the people that did the river project and the local people? Did you know that there were sort of meetings and things like that, public meetings?

MsX: Yes, I did. INT: Yes, but you didn’t ... was that you knew about them but decided not to go or you didn’t

know about them until it was too late or ... ? MsX: I just didn’t want to sort of ... I just took it that if they were going to improve it they were

going to improve it. I mean I was quite happy with what they were like saying, obviously I’d been given sort of the wrong ... you know I thought there was going to be a picnic area and things like that, I thought there would have been more down there. Because really there’s nothing round here for the kids. No parks, nothing.

INT: No. MsX: So we all go down there. INT: Would you have liked to have seen that turned into more of a park? MsX: An adventure type of thing to give the kids a bit of ... but the problem again you’re looking

at is vandalising isn’t it. They go around vandalising it all and ... it would be nice for the kids and all that but go down to the birds and pestering them and all that, that’s what would attract the kids down, to do harm, more than ... I was saying like, you go down there and take a walk with the dogs and all that but sometimes you go down and there’s kids and they’re all like looking round you and at the river and things like that, and swinging from the bridges. My kids don’t go down, I don’t let them down on their own.

INT: Don’t they? MsX: Oh no. INT: No. MsX: I’m with my kids all the time. They only play out in the front or in the back fields. I

mean, last year we made our own entertainment. We had a street party for them. We had

7

rounders, athletics, at the back, which a lot of it we took on our own hands. And it was attracting kids from different parts. I mean that back field in the summer, I’m surprised there were any kids down the bank watching.

INT: Really? MsX: And what we did cost us nothing. You know what I mean. And I’m thinking well all the

money that’s been spent down this end, you know, and there’s nothing really there for them. I think it’s been done for older people.

INT: Right. Why do you think it was done? Do you have any idea? MsX: I thought they were improving it to attract people, like old or young, but it isn’t really

attracting younger sort of like ... it’s more old people that walk the dogs. That’s all it’s being used for.

INT: Do you think wildlife have benefited from it? MsX: Well yes, if they are left alone. What happened to the goldfish, do you know what

happened to the goldfish? In the other ponds. INT: Aren’t they still there? MsX: No. They’ve gone. INT: Oh. MsX: I’ve gone down a few times trying to find them ... but they’ve gone. INT: I don’t know because as I say the ponds were nothing to do really with the project, so .... MsX: You’ve done all that work to that river and it’s the outside of it, the scenery round it that it’s

ruined, really. Nothing’s sort of been done ... around ... everything else is overgrown and just left, so it doesn’t make it attractive.

INT: Would you have liked to have seen it more landscaped? MsX: Yes. I would have liked to have seen more done that way. And then picnic areas put in. INT: So you weren’t involved in any of the consultation. Do you know whether any other local

people around here were? MsX: No. INT: No. Do you think people had a chance to sort of have an input into what was done down

there? MsX: I think people might have been told what was being done, but a lot of people just didn’t

want to get involved.

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INT: They weren’t interested enough or ... ? MsX: Well I think the way they look at it now is kids ruining ... they’ll spoil it. I mean, I think

people now have just no heart even to look. I think people are crying out for more for children because there’s nothing. I think that’s what a lot of people now tend to be looking at. But all I see now is kids going round vandalising everything. And they think why, why bother. You know, I mean, it’s the taxpayers who are paying for it and it doesn’t give anybody a heart, if it’s not going to be looked after.

INT: No, that’s right. Do you think though now that it has been done people might make more

of an effort to look after it? MsX: No. INT: I mean how much do you think local people should be involved in it when they do things

like that? MsX: I think they should be involved quite a lot. They should have a lot of say because it’s them

that’s got to live round it isn’t it? I think people are frightened now to get too involved, take on all that responsibility, isn’t it.

INT: I mean when you say you weren’t involved with the consultation, I was going to ask you

how satisfied you were with what went on as far as consulting local people was concerned? Do you think it was a success or not, the consultation? Do you not know? Have you got any idea on how it could have been done any better? Improved in any way? The consultation I mean.

MsX: No not really. There’s nothing really you can ... INT: Does the river play any part in your life at all or not? MsX: I like going down for a walk, you know, I mean I like walking and that and I like to sort of

see ... it’s nice to sort of go down and you don’t see the houses round you. You just want to look at what’s there, peace, you know, watching other things go round, like that nature type of things. I mean I stand for about half an hour watching a rat, well I mean that was fascinating. It was interesting, you know, I’ve seen it all now like, I’m stood here watching this rat. We reckoned it was a trained rat. Someone must have trained it. That’s how thingy it was. It was coming right up to you.

INT: Really? MsX: And it was getting the bread and it was sitting right in front of you eating this bread. A man joins the conversation. MrX: It wasn’t a rabbit was it? MsX: No it was a rat. And ??? over to the river. Have you seen that rat? And we were wishing

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we had a video because we were so ... it didn’t seem to be frightened of people. INT: Right. MsX: It just seemed ... and it was going round the ducks and you know, and coming up and eating

a bit of food and that, and just sitting there and eating it, coming up right close and I’m petrified of things like rats. And yet I must have just stood watching it. I had a little girl with me and she was ... you know, sort of fascinated with it.

INT: Do you think the river plays a part in the life of the local community around here at all, or

not? MsX: Nobody ever talks about it. INT: No. MsX: It not something that’s talked about. Mainly in the summer, I mean, xxxxxx and the kids

use it a lot, you know, by going down and rolling down the hills, running up the hills, and you’ve got to make your own sort of entertainment down there. ????????????? the river actually because with all the hill side of it, you know, just thinking what we could with the kids and that, we might go and look in the river and watch the little fish and things like that.

INT: People just sort of take it for granted, they don’t think about it because it’s always been

there. MsX: Yes, it’s there. INT: Do you think it’s an important part of the local landscape around this area? MsX: Could be. INT: Do you look upon the river as sort of belonging to the local community at all? MsX: Not really, it’s just there. INT: It’s just there. One of the things they said that the river restoration people wanted to do

was to try and restore the river to a more natural condition, that was one of the aims of the project. If I were to ask you to describe to me a natural river how would you describe a natural river? Not necessarily the river here ... but any river?

MsX: Well when we look on this now, it’s a strange place to have a river. A river to me is in the

countryside. That’s the type of river that I would look at, not to actually be through a town. You know, really it’s not ... well it’s just like something that’s there, it’s going through .... a river is where you walk and it’s peaceful and you don’t hear anything really apart from the river running. Here you’ve got sort of houses around, and cars, so it’s not really a country effect, is it? I know they’re trying to do it.

INT: Do you think they can though? No. Do you think it’s worth trying to make it look better

though?

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MsX: Oh probably, yes. INT: Yes. But if you were thinking about more of a country river, how would you sort of

describe it? MsX: Trees round it, rockery. ??? More rocks and that. INT: What about the shape of the river? MsX: Straight. INT: Straight? MsX: Really, when you think about it, well they’ve got that bit in the middle, where it all sort of

goes round like that ... INT: Yes, meanders. MsX: Well I ???? sort of like straight. You just walk straight ahead of yourself and you sort of ... INT: They were trying to restore it to its original .. that was it’s original channels evidently.

Looking back at old maps, historical maps and stuff like that. It’s not exactly as it used to be, because they couldn’t get it like that.

MsX: It’s just like a river running through the town isn’t it? INT: Yes. MsX: For miles and miles. INT: I mean, do you think we can really restore rivers today? MsX: No. INT: Why don’t you think we can? MsX: When you have all these floods and things like that. Whatever you do it’s going to be

wrecked isn’t it? Because the mud’s going to come away from it, the shape is going to eventually disappear, isn’t it?

INT: Yes. Right. How natural do you think the river used to look before they did the project

here? Do you think it looked natural at all or not? MsX: Just overgrown and rubbish and ... because I mean we never really took a lot of notice of

the river but then they say we went through. INT: Do you think it looks more natural now than it did before or not?

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MsX: Yeah, it is. When you try to sort of think about it, and look back, you know, I think there has been a bit of improvement and all that, and they’re hoping to expect more wildlife, but really there’s nobody there to protect them ... the wildlife. It might be attracting it but at the same time, really it should be allowed to ... not to attract the wildlife.

INT: No. Do you go to any other rivers at all, apart from the one here? MsX: I’ve been to quite a few up at ... is it the Tees? INT: I’m just wondering how does this one here now compare with some of the other rivers that

you’ve gone to? MsX: It stands out. INT: This one does? MsX: Yes. INT: Yes. In what way? MsX: False. INT: It looks false? MsX: It’s not natural, when you go to the natural rivers. INT: So it looks sort of artificial ... yes. MsX: Yes. INT: Do you know much about the River Skerne? Do you know much about the sort of history

of the river round here or not? MsX: Not really. I know about the bridge and the five pound note. INT: Yes. MsX: I was standing looking at it and I was thinking it’s the bridge ... so we’re famous for

something, eh? I’ve been carrying it around with me for years. INT: I didn’t know that until I started doing the project either. MsX: Didn’t you? INT: No. I never look at the five pound note, I just spend it. Do you know where the river ...

for example, where it comes from and where it goes to when it leaves Darlington, or not? MsX: I think, does it not go through Northallerton or somewhere like that? It goes up towards

Ripon, is it, that way? It just carries on from Alnmouth, it just doesn’t stop.

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INT: It goes into the Tees I think eventually. MsX: Yes, that’s what I’m saying, where the Tees is and all that. But then that still carries on. INT: Oh yes. MsX: It’s good up there in the summer mind, I’ll give it to you. If they could have done

something for the kids in the summer. When you go to the Tees, I mean there’s been loads killed in the Tees.

INT: Have there? MsX: Oh yes. There’s been loads of people drowned. And yet it still attracts hundreds and

hundreds of people. It’s a day out for them. It’s the river, and it’s like, you know, and they go and they paddle in the water and all that. There’s like waterfalls that come down and they go down the waterfalls and they have these things, and some fell in. There was about three or four last year. There was quite a few that were killed. And they brought something up, a like door thing, so they can’t really do a lot up there, there’s too much ... I don’t know if you’ve been up to the Tees ...

INT: No, I haven’t. MsX: It is lovely. It’s something like you’ve done here, as to what you’re doing down here,

you’ve got all walkways, you’ve got picnic areas, you’ve got like a park and there’s like waterfalls that go down and there’s a big river at the top, and you can go fishing in it and all sorts, and what attracts them more is the waterfall thing, because they come down into it and into the river, and you’ve got to be careful where you’re walking, because there’s like big holes, you can drop down them.

INT: Oh really. MsX: Oh you want to hear the ..... I mean, my heart was in my throat. I mean I’ve been up and

we’ve enjoyed it, you know what I mean, but you have to listen and hear what people are saying to you, you know, you’ve got to be careful where you’re going. People have been going up for years, you know, you’ve got to be careful. So it’s a dangerous place, and yet it attracts.

INT: It attracts people. Yes. MsX: Because there’s lots there. It doesn’t cost them anything. It costs them life, but at the

same time, it’s the thought that they can go there and have a good day out and go fishing and go and paddle in the river, slide down the dunes and that, and they’ve had a good day, but ... that could have been something they could have done here, like a plaything in the river for them. I mean they have birds and ducks up there and it doesn’t stop them.

INT: Do you think .. a lot of people say we’ve sort of controlled all our rivers now, we’ve tamed

them ... do you think that’s true?

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MsX: ??? INT: Do you think the Skerne’s been controlled at all? MsX: I don’t know really. INT: You said you thought it looked sort of artificial before ... MsX: Yes. Over the years, it’s hard to tell isn’t it? Thongs are growing up it’s just started, until

you see the improvement of it all, you’re probably going to have to think ahead of yourself a bit further.

INT: That’s true. It’ll take years for the trees to ... MsX: That’s what I mean, to just sort of settle down and how well it’s going to be looked after

when it’s all done. Is it going to be left? Or are they going to keep it clean? Is someone going to still come out and .. people throw their rubbish in ... and clean it out? Or is it going to be left? After all that’s been done to it ... there you go, we’ve done our work, goodbye.

INT: Yes. MsX: We don’t know, do we? INT: No. Do you think we should control rivers at all? MsX: I think they should be looked after. INT: Do you think by controlling them though it makes them less natural or not? MsX: I don’t think so. It’s different, because we’re in the town, not in a countryside, it’s

different. In the countryside, it is wild, you expect that, but not in a town. Do you know what I mean? So ... it would have to be looked after, wouldn’t it?

INT: But you think it can still be looked after but still look natural? MsX: I should have gone down and had a look. I’m trying to think, going back to when I used to

go down before... it was harder to go down and see the river all mucky and everything in it and all sorts. It would be nice to go down and see it looking clean and the overgrown trees moved and all that. But still, I wouldn’t class it as a major ... it’s just a walking place.

INT: Right. Do you think that the project was scientific in any way? MsX: The way they designed it I think. At first like, when you think about it, you didn’t think it

was going to fit in. It’s different. You know what I mean, I’m saying it’s not, it’s false isn’t it? So someone’s gone in and tried to make it a bit more with character really.

INT: Do you think it looked false before, because it had been straightened before.

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MsX: It was straight yes. No, I just took it that’s the river, you know. INT: No, it was straightened a long time ago, last century. MsX: So, I mean, I wouldn’t sort of know. To me, that’s how it was. INT: Yes. MsX: And now it’s different. INT: Yes. Have you got any idea what sort of knowledge you’d need to do a project like that? MsX: I don’t know. INT: You said you thought the design was scientific ... MsX: Yes, but it’s ... INT: In what way? MsX: It’s been made out to be something different to what it was. It’s not a river ... they’re

making it into something that’s going to be a bit out of style for it, put it that way. For the area it’s in.

INT: Do you think it doesn’t really fit in with the surrounding area? MsX: No, because they’re not making it look like the countryside and all that. They’re not going

to make a countryside out of it. They can’t do that now. It’s just a river that goes through a town, so they’re making it out to be something ... I know it attracts people to it ... but changing it, I don’t know, how can I put this. I’m trying to find the words. Something that it isn’t. Giving it false ...

MrX: False hope ... false image. INT: Could be. But you don’t know what sort of knowledge you’d need to do a project like

that? What sort of things you’d need to know about? MsX: Well you’d need to know about the sort of the lifestyle of ... sort of go to the countryside

and study it ... I know there’d be a lot of sort of ... from where I’m looking at it they’re living in a dream. They’re trying to change something to what they feel that it should be, they’re trying to sort of go back hundreds of years ago, when a river was a river. They’re trying to make it more fashionable. It’s more fashion type really when you look at it. They’re going to have these designs, someone’s come in looking at them, and said right, well I’ve got an idea, why don’t we do this, to try to give it a more updated image than the old image. Updating it. I think that’s what ... am I getting it right?

INT: Well their idea is that they were trying to put it back to what it used to be like. MsX: Well it wouldn’t have been like that. I can’t picture it being like that. It must have been

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years ago. INT: A long time ago. Years ago. MsX: All right, yes, but it wouldn’t have had all these houses round. INT: No, of course. MsX: They should have took into consideration the houses round it. INT: Do you think they did take into account how local people sort of use the river and that,

when they designed it? MsX: I don’t think so. I think what they were trying to do was .. they were trying to attract more

people down to look after it to respect it more. But I don’t think they’re going to get that. INT: You don’t? MsX: No. INT: No. MsX: A lot of the kids aren’t going to let that happen. I mean they don’t understand going back

into years of history and all that, they’re not interested. INT: Have the children been told about it in school, do you know? MsX: No I don’t think so. INT: You don’t? MsX: No, I don’t think they’ve talked about it. All they talk about now in school is smoking

drugs and sex. That’s what I get off my kids when they come in. Nature ... I wouldn’t say nature’s brought into it. No.

INT: I know some local schools have been down and done projects and stuff, but I don’t know. MsX: Well it wasn’t my kids’ school. INT: It wasn’t. Which school do they go to? MsX: xxxxxx. I know they’ve gone to the church, the graveyard and all that. INT: Have they? MsX: Things like that. I take them down the river. Because we just go and have a look at the

ducks or something for the fun of it all. INT: But they’ve not been down with the school?

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MsX: I don’t think so. INT: No. MsX: They’ve never mentioned it. I mean, the other one’s at the bigger school, but they’ve never

... they’re not into landscapes, you know, things like that. I don’t think nature’s brought into it. It’s more computers now isn’t it? It’s a shame because kids don’t ... I don’t think they learn enough about animals and things like that, rivers and fishing and ... I mean, like it’s there for them to destroy and all that sort of thing. A lot of people now won’t butt in.

INT: They won’t. MsX: Oh no, if they see kids doing things now, vandalising trees, they’ll just totally ignore it. INT: Why do you think that is? Because they’re afraid of what would happen to them, or ...

because they just think why bother? MsX: Well I suppose the language you get back from kids and all that. That’s why I think people

have lost a lot of interest in nature type of things. I go down there all the time now and you see kids playing, and trees, and trying to bring them down, breaking all the branches and all that. And you think ...

INT: I don’t think they’ve had much vandalism on the stuff they’ve planted. MsX: Not now, but you should ... give it time. INT: Give it time, yes. MsX: And they’ll be down and they’ll be doing all sorts to try and rearrange it. INT: Yes. MsX: You know, I mean, when you look at it, before they started on the river, the kids had their

own adventure down there. Now that adventure’s been taken away from them because they’ve moved a lot of things, you know, they’ve gone down to the trees, used the swings ...

INT: You don’t think there’s more scope for them, for adventure, now. MsX: No, there’s nothing there for them to sort of ... well when I used to go down, it was great,

you know, because when I was a kid we used to have the swings on the trees and we used to swing across the river and loved it. And when I’ve gone down, it’s nice to see again, but they just ruin it. But now the kids are all banned from it. They cut the trees down and they stopped them doing it, it cost nothing.

INT: So there used to be more trees along there did there? MsX: I’m trying to think because I haven’t been down for a while. But I’m going sort of over the

bridge, on the right, you know, and kids are going down there to make their own adventures

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and I think we used to have one in the ??? somewhere. ??? in the bridge. ?????? It would be nice, as I say, if there was something there for them where everybody can go down, and the kids can have a good laugh and the parents can go down with them and join in the run, it’s something just for a walk. There’s nothing to attract really, for them to respect it. I mean, they get a lot of things taken away from them, you know.

INT: Right. Did you know it was a sort of demonstration project that they were doing down

there? MsX: No. INT: That wasn’t told to you. They were trying to experiment to see how much they could

actually do in an urban area. That was another aim. MsX: Well, in this project, have you ever had the kids involved? INT: Well I’m not actually involved in the project at all, we’re doing an independent study.

We’re actually studying the people in the project as well. MsX: So it tends to be more adults. INT: Yes. They had a Community Liaison person who did ... she’s done a lot of work with

local children, school children and she’s had various schools ... xxxxxx I know is one of them ... and the children have been down, and they got them involved in planting the trees and things like that, so there’s been some work with children down there.

MsX: But like the kids have never been asked what they wanted. INT: I actually did. I went down to xxxxxx I think it was just before they did the project ... and I

asked the children what they thought about it. And got some interesting stuff, but I’m going to go back next month and speak to them now that it’s been done, to see what they think about it. So that will be interesting to hear what they say. Would you say that the people who did the project, the river restoration project it’s called, would you say you trusted them to know what they were doing down there? That they know how to restore and look after rivers?

MsX: Oh yes, I would. INT: Do you think that you approve really of what’s been done generally, or not? MsX: I don’t know because as I say I haven’t been down to really ... I can’t tell you whether I

approve or I disapprove of what they’ve done. Really you want to have more in the summer, when things start coming out and ... it’s winter now, so things aren’t going to look ....

INT: No. You don’t remember going down last summer ... MsX: No. We spent all the time up here. The kids just spent their time in the street and in the

back fields, we were attracting kids into the back field rather than sort of ... away from the

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area. You try and keep them near you so you can watch them ... I mean there are some ??? out there. I mean they weren’t coming in until 10 o’clock at night. And in the morning they were all out in the back field and someone came up with this big black sheet of plastic and we were carrying barrels of water out and just letting it dribble down the sheet for them to slide down into. And things like that. Some of the adults, like myself and my husband and Wendy would all go out and entertain the kids. And there was music for them, made things up, badminton, rounders, ??? letting them ??? A lot of it we had to try and entertain the kids ourselves. To go down to the Skerne really, we couldn’t have entertained them. Apart from rolling down the hills, getting cuts and bruises. They like adventure, and there’s not adventure down there. It’s been taken away. Because when we go down with the kids, we’re kids ourselves, and we like to climb up the hills and roll down the hills and ... it’s the adventure of it all.

INT: Yes. Yes. MsX: As I say, it’s all going to be changed to just walks. You can’t do nothing no more, you

can’t roll down the hills ... INT: You haven’t seen the bit where they’ve actually ... a lot of the earth that they dug out of the

river when they were making the meanders they’ve used to make some of the slopes a bit steeper where the factories are. You haven’t seen it, no.

MsX: We just go down .... look for adventure, with kids and that ... entertainment. But I mean, I

haven’t really been down a lot since they’ve been doing the work apart from the walks ????? But I’ve never been able to sort of just take my time, it’s always been a rush through, a short cut to Morrisons [supermarket] .... you know what I mean, it’s been a short cut, so you don’t tend to look around you much. But when I was going there, it was all mucky, so ... ??? I haven’t seen the pathway, so ...

INT: Is there anything else you’d like to say about the river project really? MsX: No. INT: Well thanks a lot. MsX: You’re welcome. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 23 – 11th FEBRUARY 1998 MrX: I am articulate enough that you can understand what I write and say. INT: Hopefully. You might have to speak up a bit. MrX: Yes. INT: Right OK. Do you generally go down to the river very often at all? Do you visit much? MrX: Two or three days a week. INT: Right. MrX: Less than in the past when I visited on previous occasions ... I had a dog, a little dog who

has now expired, and I just went out ... so I was quite active in walking really, as I should. INT: Yes, but you’re familiar with what’s been done down there with the project? MrX: Oh indeed, yes. INT: Yes. OK. Can I start by asking you then, whether you think the restoration project has

been a success in any way or not, and if so, why you think it may have been or may not have been successful?

MrX: It’s making progress towards success. It needs a long period of settling in. There’s still, I

would think, a fair amount of work to be done. The footpath, the base of the footpath has been fitted on one side of the river, but it stopped at that point, it would appear, and there are now pools of water forming on that footpath, which I regret. There was a footbridge to be fitted at some stage at the farther end by the Five Arches bridge. That hasn’t appeared yet. I don’t know the facts as to whether they ran out of money, or whether they’ll do it later this year ....

INT: The footbridge is certainly planned for this year. The footpath ... there was only ever, I

think, talk about doing a footpath on one side, which they’ve done. There were no plans originally to do one on both sides.

MrX: I see. There appears to be in the side of the river where the base of the footpath has been

fitted, there are marks which suggest that some seats will be provided and there was a person of advanced age might benefit I’m looking forward to seeing some seats there at some period in the future.

INT: Yes. OK. You said you think it needs more time really. MrX: To develop... INT: Yes, to develop. What do you mean by that exactly? MrX: Well we’ve been watching the water fowl, there’s quite a few various types of birds ... it

2

can’t come to mind at the moment what they are, but certainly two swans have come back, and there have been some, I think, Canadian geese, turn up. One feels hopeful that there will be further water fowl and different types of breeds and this we will look forward to very much.

INT: Yes. MrX: And of course they have planted a number of small trees and other shrubs along the banks

of the new river shaped as it is and these will be quite fascinating to watch as they develop. INT: Do you think it’s better for people visiting the river now, or not? MrX: Oh yes, I think it’s become much more interesting than it’s been in the past. One hopes

that the river will also become fresher, at times there have been despoilation if that’s the right word, of the river by chemicals flowing into it, that sort of thing, and it has been a very foul river in the past, and I’d like to see that go altogether.

INT: Do you think that visually it looks better now than it used to? MrX: Yes, from the terms that it does have the turns in it. I can’t remember the terminology

now, which obviously makes it much more interesting, and the large ... it looked like a canal .. I mean, constructed back in the 1920’s I believe, straightened out because it was flooding in the distant past.

INT: Yes, that’s right. I mean, what do you see as being perhaps the most important aspect of

success of the project? From your point of view. MrX: I would say in terms of the response that more people will come and use the river for

walks, in that section, and that would be an indication of success, but I think more specifically the development and more growth of plants of every description might be worth watching. I hope I will continue to live long enough to see it develop even further than it is now. Or I might be encouraged to go out more along the path. I need it for the exercise and good health.

INT: Yes. MrX: Those are the factors that interest me. INT: Right. So what would you say was the most important benefit for you then, from the

project? MrX: The general improved appearance and the possibility of walking the full length of it using

the footbridge to go up and come back down. It sounds boring, it’s just simply that for me with the different developments and growth of different plants. That in itself will make it interesting any way in that short distance.

INT: Yes. Do you think there are other benefits maybe for other people, different benefits? MrX: I would hope so. I speak purely in terms of an elderly person seeking somewhere

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interesting to exercise and walk, but I’m sure that others will find other aspects of it interesting. There are some groups ... there have been organised walks along there and I’ve joined them, my wife as well, ... I’m encouraging her to go along with me and whenever she can she does.

INT: She does. Can you remember when you first heard that they were going to do a project

there, did you have a particular idea or expectation of what it was going to be like? MrX: I can’t say that I saw it immediately as anything spectacular, just simply ... I was already

walking and taking the dog as well, one side or the other, regularly anyway. It was obviously a very convenient walking area so I ... quite long enough for me certainly, but then of course the prospect of the river layout could change, new plants, new trees, this sounded very exciting and very much what I’d anticipated what would happen, but I’m delighted with it. I just hope it will prove a success.

INT: Thinking about how it is now, how does that compare with how you expected it to be? Is it

more or less how you imagined it would be or not? MrX: I think so. Nature takes time to develop and shape itself so I realise that I may not be alive

to see its conclusion ... there’s no conclusion to it, but when it reaches its full maturity, but at least I hope I will last long enough to see it develop substantially.

INT: Right. Would you say that the river plays much of a part in your life at all? MrX: It does play some part I would think, obviously my interest in it, I hope it will continue to

develop. It appears to be so, in the long term, so yes, I’m interested in that respect, yes. INT: Do you think it plays much of a part in the life of the local community generally in the area? MrX: For the number of people who go up an down there, particularly on a summer day,

obviously, yes, it’s quite a fair number. I must admit, mostly, I’ve been a dog lover of some nature, who takes the dog for a walk up there. It’s very convenient, very good to exercise the dog, and I derive some pleasure and satisfation myself.

INT: Do you see the river as being an important part of the local landscape round here then? MrX: It’s an important element for those interested in the development of the area, particularly as

the river ... it has been developed in a very small area. I would like obviously to see other parts of the Skerne developed further along towards Great Burdon, at the other end of the village, as well as further in to Darlington itself.

INT: Yes. MrX: But that’s too ambitious I suppose. One hopes, eventually, when we become a wealthy

nation we can do it. INT: Hopefully. When people were planning or designing the project here, do you think they

took into account very much the way local people use the river area?

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MrX: I can’t speak with any certainty of this. I trust that they did. It’s appropriate that they should explore all the uses. People have used it and will hopefully continue to use it. I assume that that was the initial interview to get the reaction of local people and what was happening. I was quite pleased to make a small contribution to it.

INT: Right. OK. Do you look upon the river as sort of belonging to local people at all, the

local community, being their sort of river? Their property? Or not. MrX: I anticipated that if it proved a success as I’d hoped, we would get bus queues coming and I

wouldn’t be happy. It would have been too crowded. No, Darlington’s a small town and the people who are interested in developing the natural sites would come I’m sure and, in time, there will be some young people who probably will do some damage, could be, but that’s an inevitable possibility that we have to take account of and deal with it as best you can.

INT: Do you think people generally feel proud of the river at all or what’s been done here now?

Or not. MrX: Of those I’ve spoken with, you know, in walking along, most people are quite appreciative

of it and look forward to further development of it. INT: Yes. Do you know of any particular groups of people, apart from maybe the dog walkers,

who particularly use the river, or visit the river? MrX: I gather local schools are. They have planted a number of trees around in that area and

that’s as it should be. Bring the young people very early and they will hopefully appreciate it as they grow older.

INT: Yes. You said you’d been on some of the guided walks along the river, apart from the

interviews you took part in before, were you involved in any other way with the consultation for the project?

MrX: Not really. I took no active part in it. The local residents take the opportunity and the

advantage of the area, the walks anyway, and that was an extra bonus to me. INT: You didn’t go to any of the public meetings that they had? MrX: No. I didn’t go. INT: No. Did you know about them at all? Did you hear about them? MrX: I did see some publicity of one or two meetings that did take place, but regrettably I didn’t

go. There may have been ... I’m not making excuses ... I may have been out of England, conflicting in terms of my commitments.

INT: Sure, yes. Do you feel that people like yourselves, local residents, had an opportunity to

participate in deciding what was going to happen here, in the design of the project, or not? MrX: I gather we did ... the opportunity was given at, as you say, these public meetings, there was

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the opportunity for us to voice any objections and also offering some constructive suggestions, those sort of things were very much possible and I would imagine that one could have written to the local Council to express our views if we felt a strong feeling that was worth making.

INT: You’re not aware of any particular way in which local residents were able to influence

anything that was done? MrX: Nothing occurs to me. They acknowledged ... there was an agency, the local borough

council’s booklet, which comes out each year, or perhaps more frequently than that, and it did contain the thoughts of ... and there was a notice board down at the bottom end of the scheme which gave some useful information of what progress was being made towards development.

INT: Do you feel that you personally, or other people, could have been more involved with the

project in any way or with the consultation? MrX: Well, since I don’t really know as to what consultation systems already exist that I could

use, probably for me to suggest that they should have listened more to what I was going to say, but the opportunity I think was really there if I chose to make it.

INT: How much do you think local people should be involved in things like this? MrX: Ideally, they should be fairly substancial opportunities ... the opportunity should be there for

people to be ... INT: How satisfied would you say you were with the consultation that you had, what was

available? MrX: Such consultation that I had ... I was quite happy as much as with yourself I spoke my views

as I thought they were relevant at the time, and so it developed, as I said, satisfactorily as far as I could see.

INT: Do you have any idea whether you think the consultation process was a success or not? MrX: No, I’m not really ... I don’t feel I’m in a particular position to form a general judgement

but that’s all as I would hope it was effectively used. INT: Do you think there are perhaps any ways in which the consultation could have been

improved or done better? MrX: They made every effort that I’m aware of going around all the streets in this neighbourhood

questioning people, as I’m sure you’ve found, there are many people out at the time when you call, but such effort as could be made was made and there were leaflets distributed, and if you buy the local newspaper, The Northern Echo as we do here, it’s in there often, so I mean, apart from knocking on every door several times in the hope of catching people, I think this was the best one could expect, because of the time, interviewers and sending them around, so I think it was the best that could be made in my judgement.

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INT: Do you know much about the history of the river in the area at all, or not? MrX: Not a great deal. We’re not ... both have been living here now for about 20 years, just

over, we come from other parts of the country ... so my knowledge is more by reading some of the local history of the area ?????? in the county, that’s why they ??????? and it’s interesting, I walk along to Great Burdon, the village just beyond us, in the 1920’s in the high unemployment they straightened out the river because it was flooding and they did all the work ???? and that’s why it became what it was, a long ditch, and interesting and attractive.

INT: Do you know, for example, where the river goes when it leaves Darlington? Or where it

sort of comes from? MrX: Yes, Aycliffe where there’s a lot of effluence floating from the trading estate nearby at

Aycliffe. It meanders all the way up to somewhere near Peterlee in the north east of the county. I haven’t walked there but I have an approximate idea where it comes from.

INT: And have you visited many other parts of the Skerne apart from the bit in Darlington? MrX: Not really no. I haven’t. I see it if I go up by train, up to Aycliffe, but ... up towards

Durham you can see part of the river where it becomes smaller and smaller. INT: Right. Yes. One of the things that the river restoration project aimed to do here was to

restore the river to a more natural condition, they said. If I were to ask you to describe a natural river to me, what a natural river would be like, how would you describe it to me?

MrX: Well, there are different types of rivers. When I think of the ... INT: A sort of lowland river ... MrX: The Tees which is a nice and very large river ... but a small river like the Skerne which

feeds into the Tees, down at Croft, well it’s a more meandering ... somewhere between a small stream and a brook, into a river which flows naturally enough and becomes quite deep from the heavy rain or storm water. Nothing spectacular about it I would think.

INT: What sort of features would you expect to see on a natural river? MrX: Apart from the meandering condition of the river itself, it would be banks, depending upon

the type of soil and condition, whether it’s through agricultural areas, it would be more meandering, or if it’s through a built up area where it tends to become straightened up and loses some of its attractive ambience I think, until new developments and new attitudes changed this part of the river.

INT: OK. Do you think it’s feasible these days to talk about restoring rivers to their natural state

or not? MrX: It could prove very ambitious to tackle, it depends on the area where the river itself ... the

Skerne is a very small river and we are an economic ... the County itself wasn’t so small, but it is. I don’t think you could hope to see it develop with any substantial scale. It’s not

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large enough to sustain some sort of transport, I’m thinking of small boats .... INT: How natural do you think that the river here was before they did the project? MrX: Well as I say, originally, as I remember it, it had been straightened out and deepened in

some areas because of flooding and such. There have been some developments, but only to treat some of the worse aspects of the river which floods, apart from that I don’t think anything has ever been done and maybe it’s essential ????? through the centre of Darlington into ... One area that flooded and got very muddy many years ago, it’s been put into other channels and it flows through the town without the risks of flooding ????? But as the towns became larger they decided the change the course of the river to avoid the worst aspects of a flooded river.

INT: Do you think this stretch here though looked natural before? MrX: No, not to me, it always looked sort of a ditch, sometimes with pretty cloudy water flowing

through it. It hasn’t had much effect as regards the ???? INT: Would you say it looks more natural now than it did before? MrX: Yes, it is a significant improvement. The fact that I gather there is now fish and other wild

aquatic animals now beginning to show themselves in the river, let us hope that it will become much more fruitful.

INT: Compared to perhaps other rivers that you know, how natural do you think the Skerne here

is compared to other rivers? MrX: Well, I come from xxxxx and I remember my childhood spent largely down there. The

rivers there, the River xxxx, from xxxxx into ???? ... they were a different type of river, more rocks and stones.

INT: Yes, a different type of river. MrX: I don’t think I really distinguished or give much thought to the River Skerne. I don’t think

anyone really wanted to acknowledge it’s existence, it was a rather smelly dirty... one tended to think of it as such.

INT: It’s been said that we have tamed most of the rivers in this country, do you think that’s the

case? That we sort of control them? MrX: I’m not quite sure what you mean by taming the rivers, in the sense of ... INT: Controlled or managed ... MrX: Controlled ... in some parts it is very managed. Some of the bigger rivers, like that Tees

and the Wear have been managed because it’s attractive ????? quite attractive areas and the tourists are seeing it as an advantage to develop on that ground, whether that would apply to Darlington, the Skerne is much shorter and not quite large enough to have the appeal.

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INT: Where rivers have been controlled, maybe for flood defence purposes, or other things, do you think it matters that we do control our rivers? Do you think that we should do?

MrX: Well control in the sense of humanly ???? doesn’t create the problems of flooding I suppose

it’s inevitable. But when it becomes controlled with ????? it changes nature from natural to growing plants which really are not relating to that type of soil condition, that seems nonsensical, but I would say it’s fine that there should be some attempt to develop it in a way that makes it attractive, appealing I suppose is the word, to the local residents if they choose to come, it’s more enjoyable living in an environment which is attractive.

INT: Yes. Do you think that by controlling rivers we make them more or less natural at all? MrX: Yes, some over ambitious scheme might produce something which really is not related to

the local environment. It produces aspects which are not really appropriate to that area. I wouldn’t like to specify in detail exactly what I mean however, but it could develop out of proportion really with nature ?????? over enthusiastic ???? what they’ve done so far is in keeping with what I would feel was appropriate. If they get over ambitious in the future then .... other people .?????

INT: Do you think it’s possible to control and manage rivers but still allow them to appear

natural? MrX: That’s the aim of developing them so it looks ... so that it becomes more natural, what we

would mean by that is that natural things develop in their own way and in their own fashion and not as things imposed on them, so development has to be done with skill and understanding. Naturally what you’re doing with the substance you’re dealing with ...

INT: When you’re thinking about a natural river would you include in that idea of natural sort of

human influences, or human features, manmade features? MrX: In the use of the river or ....? INT: Possibly... yes. MrX: I’m thinking of the Skerne and I don’t think it’s large enough to develop into ... sailing

boats and rowing boats and ... entertainment. ???? As I say, somebody with some understanding and knowledge of the project conditions and terminology, it should be done with skill and care, that’s fine, but if you become too ambitious it loses its natural state really and the appeal that I would hope it should have.

INT: Do you think that rivers naturally change over time or do you think that they tend to remain

fairly permanent? MrX: They must change all the time, it depends on what time .. 100 years, 200 years ... it’ll

change, the use of land changes, different items of use, farming to grow, changing cattle to sheep to agriculture, it all changes over a period of years but if you want to develop and turn it into an entertainment area with all sorts of attractive flower pots and all that, ??? that’s the way you want it to go, if there’s demand and choice of ??? man or woman...

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INT: If there weren’t any influences from humans do you think rivers naturally change themselves over time?

MrX: Rivers change all the time, yes. That’s nature, not human nature, nature. INT: Yes. Would you say that you think the restoration project here has been scientific in any

way? MrX: In terms that I believe that the people that have been involved in planning it and giving

some guidance to its development I believe that most of them had some scientific background or knowledge. It’s very much a necessary aspect.

INT: Would you have any idea what sort of scientific knowledge would be needed to do a project

like this? MrX: Oh I can’t remember all the terminology, really. People who deal with birds, what are they

called? INT: Ornithologists. Birds. MrX: Ornithology. All sort of -ologies. INT: Ecologists. MrX: Ecology, looking at the soil at all that. INT: It’s all sorts of things, yes. MrX: Those sort of things related to the development of the nature. Yes I would think it would

be important to be consulted at least, that you go in to do some aspect which doesn’t fit in to the normal. You introduce something foreign to it, it destroys the aspect you are trying to develop in the first place.

INT: Can you think of any other type of knowledge that may be necessary for that sort of project? MrX: Knowledge of a bit of engineering, where there’s ????? flow of water, how to produce the

meanders which are ... the way they flow naturally or whatever what one means by naturally ??? There’s a fair amount of skill attached to it.

INT: Yes, that’s right. To what extent do you think that the people that did the project know

how to restore rivers? MrX: Well I believe they have employed ..... doing the work here they had skilled people in

attendance, I understand, to give guidance ... well, to handle it and present it in a way which was approved by the Council in the way that it should be developed and with what appears to be a success.

INT: Would you say that you trusted them to know what they were doing with the project, to

look after the river?

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MrX: Yes. Yes. One must. INT: Have you got any idea of anything else that you think might need to be learned or

investigated about restoring rivers? MrX: I don’t know enough about the subject. I have a very superficial knowledge and really

couldn’t say with any understanding. INT: Right. Would you say that overall you approve of what’s been done? MrX: Yes. Yes. INT: OK. MrX: I look forward to further developments. INT: Yes. Well I’ve covered the questions I wanted to ask. Is there anything else you would

like to say about the project or ...? MrX: I think I’ve said all that needs to be said. I’ve given my full approval and hope for further

favourable developments. INT: OK. Thanks very much. [END OF INTERVIEW]

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SKERNE INTERVIEW 24 – 12th FEBRUARY 1998 INT: Can I start by asking first of all whether you think that the restoration project here that

they’ve done has been, from your point of view anyway, has been a success in any way or not successful, and why or why not, if you like?

MsX: I think it’s been successful in what they intended to do which was to bring more wildlife

and increase the river’s attractiveness, so I think it’s been successful in that, because we’ve certainly got more wildlife now.

INT: Any other ways you think it may have been a success? MsX: ??? No I can’t think of anything. I’m sorry. I’m not going to be a very good customer

for you, am I? INT: Oh no, that’s all right. So you think it’s attracted more wildlife. It looks better. MsX: It looks better, yes. Only one thing I would say, it hasn’t been quite so successful at, we

had flooding this year. Now we’ve had flooding before but we were assured that the changing of the river bed would stop the flooding. It didn’t.

INT: Did they say that it would stop it completely? MsX: Well I’m not quite sure. I just got the impression, when ... all the meetings and things ...

that it would help solve it. But it hasn’t really. INT: Did it flood worse than before? MsX: About the same, or slightly less perhaps. INT: Right. MsX: I had to say that because my husband said don’t forget to tell her about the flooding. INT: Oh yes, because we want to get everything. I’m not necessarily for or against what’s been

done. I just want to know what other people think about it. OK. Is that something that you’re concerned about particularly?