08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

1/22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICEInternal Affairs Division

IA # 08-0080

Interview with Deputy Rojas, S0871April 7, 2011

LICKING: Uh, do you happen to know Cory?

ROJAS: No.

LICKING: Okay, this is, uh, Cory Morrison.

MORRISON: Nice to meet you.

ROJAS: My names Roy Rojas.

LICKING: Roy Rojas. Uh, todays date is, uh, April the 7th, 2011. Time in is about 2:45 and,

um, just for the transcription, Im Sergeant Brad Licking, 1122, uh, Cory

Morrison.

MORRISON: 1509.

LICKING: And Roy, if you can state your name and your serial number.

ROJAS: Rodrigo T. Rojas, serial number 871.

LICKING: Okay, great. Um, and you and I have worked on and off, uh, together for a while

but,

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: um, you were tellin me before you got about 22 almost 23 years, is that right?

ROJAS: Sworn I have 22 years, uh, comin up in July will be 22. Total with the County has

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982Typed by: A9998Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 1 of 22

7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

2/22


IA # 08-0080

been 28.

LICKING: Good deal, okay. Um, since you came over as Sworn what, what positions have

you held so far?

ROJAS: Since, uh, been a Deputy Sheriff?

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: Well, Patrol, um, been with the, uh, the Special Vic-, um, SID, Special

Investigations, Court Criminal Court Services, uh, Warrants Division, uh, GID

their, um, Jail Crimes and, uh, Special Victims Unit and then back to Patrol.

LICKING: Okay, cool. Um, this particular case, uh, is IA case number 08-0080. Obviously,

its an older case. Um, you know they had started this case, um, a while back and

for whatever reason it got placed on hold for a while and then, uh, they asked us

to. And it never had any official findings that were placed on the case so they

asked us to, um, kinda reopen it up and go over it and what not. Um, some of the

things that had gotten listed and tryst me, youre not the only persons thats been

you know had some concerns brought up in the case. Um, but for this particular

case one of the things that they, um, were kinda looking at was the SVU, uh, in

particular as to how they manage their cases, the evidence. Um, some of the cases

that, um, were being worked by MCSO when we had the El Mirage contract and

what not. Um, do you remember the dates that you were in SVU?

ROJAS: The dates?

MORRISON: Um hum.

LICKING: Yeah, like when you transferred in and when, when you left?


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

3/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Uh,...

LICKING: Roughly.

ROJAS: transferred in in, uh, lets see here. Wanna guesstimate I think its Ju-, uh, May

of, uh, into Special Victims Unit?

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: May, uh, May of 2000, lets see, I think it was 2001. Lets see, Im tryin to think

cause, uh, uh, it was in 2000, 2001 May and.

LICKING: Do, do you remember who your Sergeant was at the time

ROJAS: Uh.

LICKING: when you, when you first went over?

ROJAS: I think it was, uh, Sergeant, uh, retired, um.

LICKING: Was that Don Harvey by any chance or

ROJAS: No.

LICKING: Darrell Newton?

ROJAS: No, it was before.

LICKING: Oh, okay.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

4/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: It was before those two, uh, before Don. As a matter of fact, Don, uh, replacedhim or he was transferred back. Um, uh, I wanna say Daugherty but its

Daugherty. Daugherty was still a slick sleeve at that time, uh, detective. Um,

(pause) gosh, darn it.

LICKING: You said timeframe was kinda around the, the middle of 2001, somewhere around

there?

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: Around there.

LICKING: Um, how, how long were you there for?

ROJAS: Uh, about seven and a half years.

LICKING: Okay. Alright. And its my understanding just from reading the case, uh, Kim

Seagraves would have been your last Sergeant, is that correct or its?

ROJAS: No, it was, uh, Greg Lugo.

LICKING: Oh, okay, Greg did, okay, Greg took over from. Um, when, uh, Mary Ward, uh,

left and Jim Weeky left, uh, and what not they started goin through cleaning out

offices and then when you transferred out they noticed that at one point, um, and

and I know that there was another investigation involving just a box that you had

gotten from Mary Ward.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

5/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: This, this, this would be a, a, a separate case from that, um, and a, and a different,

um, concern that was raised during this, uh, what we kinda dubbed the SVU case

and its the 0080 up here in IA. Um, and it had to do with evidence that they found

in, um, your office that was at the Special Victims Unit after you transferred out.

Um, and theyve got a list of things here. Um, uh, Im tryin to think, uh, Ser-

Sergeant Calderone, I guess was tasked with going through items, um, that were in

boxes that were left in your office. Um, and theyve, basically, when, when I go

through the list here, um, and Ill, Ill show it to you real quick.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Basically what its got listed here is several items, um, that apparently at least

according to them when they started doin a little bit of back tracking, um, looked

like they were associated with, uh, Sex Crimes cases. And these were basically

how the items were itemized and, uh, basically, um, logged and things like that as

they were they, when they were in the box. So, um, does any of this? And I know

this is really old Roy, so I mean, I mean if anybody threw a DR number at me I

wouldnt be able to go back and look and go, oh yeah, I, I remember that. I just

wouldnt do that.

But I thought maybe if you took a look at this and you know maybe some of the

names might jump out at you if you remember a particular person with a case or

what not.

ROJAS: Well, I know this one. That one I do remember.

LICKING: Okay.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

6/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: It was in a, uh, involved a, a Deputy at the Office.

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: But if that that wasnt I mean it wasnt evidence. They were copies, alright?

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: Because the, uh, tapes and all that were already, uh, in, uh, Property and Evidence.

LICKING: Okay. Um, for this particular one cause I, I notice when I go through and some of

these just say I mean itll actually say like, like this one here is a copy of such and

such or whatever.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Some of them are actually listed as original Maria.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, like this other one here you know one marked original Maria and that type a

thing. And so I kinda went through cause and, obviously, as a Detective,

obviously, we need to be able to have a working copy of somethin when were

writin somethin up.

ROJAS: Sure, uh huh.

LICKING: And, and were gonna have pieces of evidence in our office.

ROJAS: Sure.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

7/22


IA # 08-0080

LICKING: And thats thats gonna happen as were workin on cases but I think the concernthat was raised is that they saw you know quite a few that were marked originals.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, and then we looked at the back, um, some of them were turn, I think already

got listed here. Um, let me see where cause I had to actually mark some of these.

Um, again a lot of them, a lot of them are sayin originals on it. Um, hum, there

was a couple here that were marked that basically just needed to be put into

Property. Let me see if I can find them.

ROJAS: Hum.

LICKING: And it looked like it was like a hand written note.

ROJAS: I, well, I dont remember any, any further. The reason why I remember that one is

because of the name

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: you know that it, I know that thats a, uh, the one that involved, uh, some of the

people.

LICKING: This one in particular, um, and for the sake of the transcript Ill read the number,

08-013924 and its got listed on here impound as evidence you know type thing.

Um, you know it says just impound. So I, I guess the, the concern that got raised

was, um, you know the items that were in your office. And you, you didnt, you

didnt, Im gonna assume that you didnt share an office with anybody, is that

correct?


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

8/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Right. I didnt share.

LICKING: Okay. Um, would there had really been any reason that anybody elses cases

evidence would be in your office after you left?

ROJAS: There would be no, no reason for them to, to store any evidence there.

LICKING: Okay. Um, what was the, what was, could you tell me like for your common

practice was it common for you to like say leave, leave an item there for any length

of time like say past after you had already a supplement? Um, did that happen in

the past or?

ROJAS: Well, what happened is I mean it, it, if I understand where youre comin from,

um, what we would do is get our, um, recording and then we use that, uh, to you

know do our, our supplementive work. And depending.

LICKING: And when you say re- recording, are you talking about a copy of the original?

ROJAS: The original.

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: But, but for the most part what I did I, I did a copy either CD and before that it

would have been you know tape cassettes or VHS. And sometimes, um, we would

make like two originals and one of them would have been sent to Property and

Evidence and the other one we would keep in our, it would be the same thing. But,

um, that I dont I, I but dont remember what.

LICKING: Well, and I just wanna make sure we dont kinda mix words a little bit. I mean,


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

9/22


IA # 08-0080

obviously, if youre gonna have a working copy and like I said,

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: some of these are marked original, um, and then some of them are marked copy.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: So, um, I mean like this, this particular one here its got, uh, yeah, whether theyre

suspects or witnesses or victims, Im not sure but, obviously, it says an original

you know with this persons name on it. And then another CD its a copy of

another person. So, um, I mean I, I remember out in District, District II how we

would do things is we would always, like you said, you would have the original

and that would be you know once you had a copy made that would go back to

Property and Evidence or back to the County Attorney, whoever you got it from.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, and then you just work off of the copy.

ROJAS: Right.

LICKING: ...that type thing and, obviously, thats you know so I mean we all know in case it

gets lost at least theres a, an actual

ROJAS: Right.

LICKING: original and copy somewhere else so. Um,

ROJAS: Well.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

10/22


IA # 08-0080

LICKING: would there, would there have been any reason that you would, you would keepmore than one? I mean when you go through there I mean theres.

ROJAS: More than one copy?

LICKING: Yeah.

ROJAS: Well.

LICKING: An original and a copy is like what weve got on a couple of these.

ROJAS: I mean thinking back, uh, at.

LICKING: And, and, and the reason I ask I, only because of the Sheriffs Office Policy. I just,

I just want us to its only fair to remind you that you know I mean hey, if we, if

we, if I just did somethin I left somethin in the Office thats one thing that type

thing.

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: Its not like any of this actually was lost.

ROJAS: Right.

LICKING: I mean it was recovered, uh, it was turned over. It was put into Property later and

that type a thing so I mean if thats the issue thats the issue that were dealing

with so.

ROJAS: Well, uh, I mean I, yes, it, it. I mean I did this, right, yeah, I screwed up over it.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

11/22


IA # 08-0080

And, uh, if I made I know that sometimes I would cause my, uh, my office wasnt

the best clean or organized cause I had stuff scattered all over. And if I would beworking on a case I cou- you know I wouldnt I couldnt find my, uh, like working

copy so the original that I would have then I would make another copy and bring it

into the office and start working from that knowing that I mean that up in, in, in

the future I would put my original or send it over to, to, uh, to Property and

Evidence impound it. Yeah, I dragged my feet you know, uh, procrastinated. I

screwed up you know.

LICKING: Okay. And, and, uh, you know Cory and I are sure not here to point fingers or

anything.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: I mean if you were to go down to my office, Ive got boxes and boxes of this, this

particular case were talkin about.

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: So I understand about havin a lotta stuff spread out, things happen so.

ROJAS: Yeah, right.

LICKING: I just happened in this particular case you know people came in later and like wow,

heres a bunch of stuff and then they had to go through and itemize things and

before they turned it over

ROJAS: Right.

LICKING: to like be reassigned or.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

12/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: But I thought, Im pretty sure that there was a box of, uh, uh, uh, CDs and stufflike that that Im. (Sigh) Im pretty certain that I told Sergeant Lugo, I pointed it

out to him

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: you know for the oncoming, uh, detective.

LICKING: Sure, when he was comin back in.

ROJAS: And showed him the, and showed him the files

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: of all the, the working cases that were still you workin. And then, uh, the

pending ones and then the, uh, uh, the ones that were going to, to court at that

time and then the completed ones and, uh, the completed cases. And Im pretty

certain that I showed him you know in, in my cabinet file that the CDs or the

recorded copies that were pertained to certain files.

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: And then.

LICKING: So at least whoever was taking over knew where you were at, which case?

ROJAS: Right. And, and I informed him I didnt know that whoever was gonna replace me

thats, uh, where it was at.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

13/22


IA # 08-0080

LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, obviously, one of the questions that they would have us ask is

what would have been the proper procedure for the items of evidence in youroffice?

ROJAS: Well, the proper procedure I mean if, uh, make your copy you know that you

made and then send or forward impound the, uh, your evidence to for, uh, you

know its evidence!

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: You know and put it away. I mean thats (chuckle), uh, like I said I, I

procrastinated tryin to, cause you know workin Special Victims Unit is it was, it

was a, its, its a type of unit where you got a lot of, lot of fires popping up

everywhere. And youre going to work a case. You do it. You, you did what, what

was important at that time the investigation. Bring your stuff into the office. All of

a sudden you get another fire. I said, uh, Ill work here. Ill set this aside and get to

it little as soon as I get a, a chance or an opportunity. Go over and take and, uh,

take care of that other fire that popped up. Same time be another one that popped

up.

Within time you start writing you know you, you start catching up writing your

supplemental reports, uh, put your evidence your, your recordings away knowing

that that stuff needs to go to Property and Evidence. And I know that at times I

didnt have, uh, well, time to to to do that so what I did is when I sent my case to,

to, uh, to the County Attorneys Office and what I would do is I would take my,

uh, originals to if I had, if I had them with me my original copies to Property and

Evidence.

LICKING: Okay.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

14/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: You know just to know that they would be there in case

LICKING: Sure.

ROJAS: the County Attorney.

LICKING: And just from reading, reading the case I mean, obliviously, you had El Mirage at

the same time and they were a contract city

ROJAS: Oh, yeah.

LICKING: and got priority and things like that so. Yeah, I mean I can certainly understand

that as well.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Havin all those different and you guys were constantly getting called out.

ROJAS: Oh, man, I was gettin called out quite a bit because of Spanish speaking. At that

time I was the only Spanish speaker in the unit and I would get called out 2 or 3 in.

Even if I wasnt on call

LICKING: Um hum.

ROJAS: you know I would be called out. I was getting burned out. I mean at seven and a

seven coming up on eight years I was already, uh, (chuckle) well, uh, I guess you

might say a ticking tom or a bomb.

LICKING: Right.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

15/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Uh, I was readin an article, uh, a couple years back where the average time for a

Special Victims Unit Detective where we investigate child abuse and child crimesthe average is two years and I was way over my,

LICKING: Sure.

ROJAS: my time so.

LICKING: I certainly dont blame you there. I, I cant imagine. And I never did that particular

one. We would help out occasionally but I couldnt imagine gettin called out

specifically for that so.

ROJAS: Right. And then sometimes I get called out for, um, assist arson and, uh, homicide.

LICKING: Yeah, pretty much anything that GID had

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: and needs help at that point. Okay.

ROJAS: Right.

LICKING: Um, Cory, did you have anything right now?

MORRISON: No.

LICKING: Okay. What were gonna do is Im just gonna take a five minute break tops, go

talk to the Lieutenant real quick and Ill be right back.

ROJAS: Okay.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

16/22


IA # 08-0080

LICKING: So do you need any more water or anything?

ROJAS: No, Im fine.

LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, time out is right at 3:00.

MORRISON: Alright.

(Long pause)

LICKING: Alrighty, uh, time back in right at about 3:01, I guess.

ROJAS: Hum.

LICKING: Um, you know I dont really have too much else case wise so, um, these were

some of the Policies that, uh, that got brought up so Ill just read a couple of these.

Basically, these were the same ones that were in the Notice of Investigation. Um,

you know just kinda go over those real, real quick and, um, theyre all out of CP-

2, which is obviously the Code of Conduct.

ROJAS: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, the first one is 2.1A, uh, it says, uh, Conformance to Office Directives and

Established Laws. A says employees shall conform to the provisions of all, uh,

written Policy except those to be found unlawful, incorrect or inapplicable.

Violation of written Policy with or without, um, articulateable justification may

result in disciplinary action. Um, I mean knowing what Policy says about certain

things, do you feel that you had vio- violated that Policy?


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

17/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Yeah, I think I did I guess. I mean I, I wasnt prompt with my actions and

knowing and with the experience that I have, um, and handling of you know mycase management thats one of the priority things. You need to secure you know

your evidence that you have and CDs, well whatever, recordings. Its evidence.

And, uh, I just, like I said, I mean fires popping everywhere. Yeah, I violated it

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: you know.

LICKING: Um, and, and some of these are gonna sound like duplicates so, um, the next one

is, uh, CP-2.11F. Uh, 11 is, uh, Performance or Dereliction of Duty and F,

specifically, says employees are derelict in the performance of their duties, uh,

when they willfully or negligently fail to perform them or when they perform them

in a grossly inefficient manner. When the failure is with full knowledge of the duty

and an intention not to perform it, the omission is willful. When the non-

performance is the lack of ordinary care, the omission is negligent. Would you,

would you think that you had violated that as well?

ROJAS: Yeah, my acts were negligent. They certainly werent intentional but,...

LICKING: Alright.

ROJAS: uh, they were.

LICKING: But just because of, uh, low manpower, ton of case loads and things like that?

ROJAS: Thats the thing. I mean we were, we were over worked.

LICKING: Right. And you know thats what, thats what I keep reading every time I you


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

18/22


IA # 08-0080

know everybody kept talkin about you know you guys kept gettin pulled for this

detail that detail, plus all the El Mirage stuff and what not so.

ROJAS: Yeah. I mean if I may also mention I mean the times when we were pulled out, uh,

to do other work from other, uh, other units outside of GID.

LICKING: Oh, okay.

ROJAS: You know.

LICKING: So you were helpin out the Districts, too or?

ROJAS: Well, no, we were helpin like, um, what was that? The, um, when they were doin

you know all the, uh, the univer- the colleges they were doin the search warrants?

LICKING: Right, the Rio Salado stuff?

ROJAS: Yeah, the Rio Salado stuff

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: I mean we were, we were bombarded with all this stuff, took us away from all

our cases. And we yeah, we complained, we griped you know we voiced our

opinions about that. Listen, our case load is suffering. Why are we being pulled

away you know to do this other stuff?

LICKING: Right.

ROJAS: And then I mean that that.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

19/22


IA # 08-0080

LICKING: Its hard to keep on task when youre bein pulled 20 different directions.

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: I, I can understand that. Um, then next one is, uh, CP-2.29, um, B4. Uh, 29 says

its, uh, Incompetence or Failure to Meet Standards. Uh, B is incompetence may

be, uh, demonstrated by the following and then four says, uh, failure to make

reasonable decisions or take appropriate actions. Do you think that that was a

violation of that?

ROJAS: Well, I think I made reasonable decisions but I just didnt, uh, take the appropriate

action as required.

LICKING: Okay, okay, thats fair. Um, and then the last one, uh, CP-2.33B, um, like I said,

some of these are kinda sound like, uh, theyre redundancy. Thirty-three (33) says,

A- Abuse of Process, Withholding Evidence and Misappropriation of Property.

And B says employees shall secure all items of evidence in designated Property

lockers or other authorized secure areas as soon as possible. Employees shall not

leave, uh, evidence in vehicles, in personal lockers or in or on desks or in other

areas in which it may be subjected to possible tampering or theft. Uh, contraband

should also be placed promptly in an appropriate location pending destruction

and/or disposition. So, um, do you think that that had been violated by your

actions?

ROJAS: Yeah, I mean I didnt put it in you know the Sheriffs Office Property and

Evidence, uh, section. Uh, every time I mean I, I, I went to left the office I locked

my door.

LICKING: Right.


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

20/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: Uh, my cabinet was I mean stored everything in there.

LICKING: Um hum.

ROJAS: Uh, but still you know I know that it, it should have.

LICKING: Gone over to Property and Evidence (unintel 23:43)?

ROJAS: Yeah.

LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, and like I said, its not our job to point fingers or anything like

that. Uh, one thing that youre entitled to and I think we kinda talked about this

the other day on the phone was, um, I dont wanna put any words in anybodys

mouth or anything like that so if there was somethin I said that you would like to

clarify or somethin that you said that you would like to either clarify or expound

on or whatever, um, Im pretty much at the end. Did you have anything else?

MORRISON: No.

LICKING: Okay. Um, youve got five minutes and well just turn the floor over to you and

you know you can make whatever. I mean if you wanna, like I said, I dont wanna

put any words in your mouth but if you wanna make a statement you can;

ROJAS: Um hum

LICKING: if you dont want to, you dont have to.

ROJAS: Well, you know theres not really much to, to, to say. I mean what I did I did it,

even though it wasnt my intention to, to keep you know the so called, uh,

evidence. Not so called, I mean its there. But even though some of them, like I


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

21/22


IA # 08-0080

said, and they some of them were marked copies because they were working

copies and I know that some of the originals that were there were also workingcopies.

LICKING: Okay.

ROJAS: Uh, we got some like from Child Health they put down original; they gave us two

copies, alright?

LICKING: Gotcha.

ROJAS: And they were both marked; it was mine and theirs and they were both original.

The original, whichever theirs or, or, or, or mine would be forwarded to, to

Property and Evidence. The other one, even though it said original would, would

be the working copy and maybe I should have written on it. Another thing is, yeah,

based on I mean my experience, um, that the time that I had there and as a

investigator, um, yeah, I should have acted promptly but certainly was not my

intention to withhold all this evidence that from you know send it or forward to or

to secure it. Um, I just dragged my feet. I, like I said, I just procrastinated on this

and, uh, because of all the fires that were popping up all the time and then pulling

away from, um, main duties and perform other tasks, we were, we were stressed

out. We were over loaded you know with our work. Um, being transferred back to

District II patrol or to patrol was you know was a great thing for me. Its, uh,

yeah, I do miss investigations. I enjoyed it. But at this point at this junction in my

career its time to take a different venue or you know road. Uh, I mean I, I regret

not taking the prompt you know taking that action that I should have. Its done.

Learn from it and continue on you know. Let it, let I mean what else can I say?

LICKING: Sure. Okay. Uh, anything else?


7/29/2019 08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

22/22


IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: No, thats it.

LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, were pretty much done. Uh, time out will be, uh, about, uh,

3:10.

MORRISON: Ill go get the recording.

ROJAS: Are we done?

LICKING: Right.


08-0080 Rojas 1st IA

Documents