006 Basic Influencing Skills

Basic Influencing SkillsVideotape 3rd Edition

1997

Videotape Trancrtpts and Leader Guide

Allen E. IveyNorma Block GluckstemMary Bradford IveyWilliam L. H. Roberts

Featurtng Kathryn Bohn

©J 997 Microtraining Associates25 Burdette Avenue, Framingham, MA. 0]702Email: [email protected]: &88-505-5576Website: www.emicrotraining.com

Basic Influencing Skllls Videotape Transcripts

Contents:

Overview and Comments

Transcripts for the Videotapes

1. Introduction to Basic Influencing SkillsApproximately 6 minutes

2. Basic Listening Sequence (Topic-SeXUal harrassment)Approximately 14 minutes

3. Focusing the Narrative: Helping the Client See Multiple .Perspectives (topic---cartng for our elders)Approximately 15 minutes

4. Confrontation: Supportlng While Challenging(Topics-confrontatlon vignettes, interview ondivorce issues. and the Confrontation Impact Scale)ApproximatelyI? minutes

5. Directives (Topic-procrastination)Approximately 19 minutes

6. Feedback/ self-disclosure (Topic-maintaining balance Ina complex world, Includes discussion of race and spirituality Inthe tntervtewlApproximately .16 minutes

7. Interpretation/reframe (Topic-issues of a young person Inrelation to family)Approximately 18 minutes

8. 5-Stage Vocational Interview (Topics-"shall I become acounselor" and "what about my relationship?")Approximately 22 minutes

9. 5-Stage Assertiveness Interview(Topic-learn1ng how to actagainst sexual harrassment)Approximately 19 minutes

10. Teaching Microskills to Clients (Topics-demonstration ofhow to teach skills In the Interview, discussion of teaching astreatment)Approximately 11 minutes

We have numbered the pages separately for each transcript. You maywish to duplicate the transcript and share copies with your students or workshopparticipants for further analysis and discussion.

Overview and Comments

The third edition of BClSic In.Jluenctng Skills features some begtnnlng pnnctples ofnarrative theory along with our traditional emphasis on sk1lls. We have found thatbringing concepts of the "story" Into training helps broader student perspectives. Wealso find that drawing out stories is a more positive approach than sole focus onproblems.

We have tried to stress even more the Importance of positive assets and strengths In thistape series. The positive asset search goes back to 1974. but we have constantly beenimpressed by its Importance and power . .A:l we say In the tapes, we build on strengths.not on our problems. We are pleased to note that the new narrative therapists havepicked up this theme and carried it further. In some cases we have found that a detailedexploration of positive assets and resources is enough for the client to feel that he or shehas a beginning solution.

Basic Instructions for using the tapes In a workshop or classroom are found in the textBasic Influencing Skills. Chapter 9. Teaching Helping Skills to Others. Information Isalso In the Leader Guide of Intentional Interviewing and Counseling: FacilitatingDevelopment in a Multfcultural SoCiety and Essenttal Interviewing.

The microskills model goes back many years now. but we sUll find that the basicteaching plan works very effectively. However. adapt the model to fit your situation asit is Important to work the model Into a framework which is comfortable to you. Theor:lglnal model. backed up by over 300 data-based empirical studies and extensiveclinical practice. is as follows:

1. Tell your participants about the skill or have them tell you what they alreadyknow and generate a conversation on the meaning and value of the skill inquestion.

2. View the video example.

3. Read the basic information about the skills and its variations In the text.particularly the pages on the specific microskills strategy (e.g. page 17 on thebasic listening sequence). Again. generate a conversation with your traineesabout the skill

4. Practice the skill in small groups, ideally with videotape feedback and usingthe feedback sheets in the text. Eventually. you may want to use tapes developedby you and your students as supplements to the materials presented here.

5. Participants need to practice the skllls outside of the workshop or class if theyare to generalize and be maintained.

We find it especially helpful to have students present us with transcripts of theirhomework. And. It is even better if you can obtain video or audiotapes of their sessions.

We wish you the best of luck and welcome your feedback and suggestions.

Tape 1 Introductioo.

1TI1..E: Introduction to Baslc Influencing SkillsAllen E. Ivey

Allen: Welcome I Counseling and psychotherapy are about stories. Clients come tous with stories about a family member expertencmg cancer, what happened to them as aresult of an automobUe accident. Clients come to us with stories about vocaUonalindecision. wondering what to do. Our first task. as helpers is to Itsten to their storiesand understand how they came to come about with their particular version or narrativeof their life,

Now. after we hear the story. carefully. empathlcally, what do we do next? Uh, thesetapes suggest. that what--the first thing to do is to find a s1renzth a positive asset aresource In that client I think too often we focus only on thlnll's that are wrong withcUrnts In these tapes we want to balance negative stOIy-telllng With positive stories.And that serves as a fOUndation for change

Summ..E: BuUd on cllent strengths

So In the Orst part of these tapes, we'll be focusing on 1tsten1ng to the client's story andpositive strengths. As we move along In the Influencing skills series. we're going tostart focusing on re-storymg, telling the story from dilIerent perspectives, seeingsituations In new ways. And then we're moving toward what we call the Influencingskills in this process of re-storymg.

And finally, after you've done a new story. I think It's Important to work with a clienttoward behavioral action. So moving and doing something with your story Is a vitalpart of thIS whole process. And In the final tape, for example, we'll see how to useassertiveness tra1nJng to work on action as we change a client's. story. So to Sum up thisfirst part. the model's relatlyely straightforward: hear the client's stOry' build onPQsittve strenfltlls the poSitive asset search' then work towards re-stoMnIl' chanll'lnll'the nature of the narrative with the cllent--not on the client· and finally moytng towardappropriate behavioral actlop,

1TI1.E (EUMINATE ALLEN FROM SCREEN AND SHOW DURING mEWORDS)

1. Story2. Positive Asset3. Restory4. AcUon

Then return Allen to the screen for the next paragraph.

Now all of these are done In a multicultural context and we hope we can do a little bit onthese tapes to consider ISSues of gender, ah, aJIecUonal or sexual orientation,race/ethrucity, and other factors which I think are Important In the counselJngprocess. We're going to do all of this via a process called mlcrotraln1ng, usingmtcroskills.

We break the Interview down into discrete units. and when you practice, we're going toask you to focus specifically on one single dimension of helping. Now I know that'sgoing to be a bit awkward at first. but we find as you get Into specifics, gradually thesespecifics start Internaltzlng and end up helping you listen and work With a client'sstortes more effectively.

MlcrOtraln1ng has over three hundred data base studies which say that the systemworks and Is useful The crucial Issue 15behavioral transfer. So after we've presented asUlil'lesk:!!l we need to work On practicing the behaVior.

SUBTrTI.E: Behavioral transfer vital

ldeallv you're going to yldeotape YOYrselfand see yourself In ytcleotape. or at leastaudiotape. Make a transcript at times and Jook at yourself

SUB1TILE: Look at yourself

And after you've done this Practice, think about generalization to your owninterviewing work. Unless you take these sk.Ulsactively Into the world at large, notmuch ISgoing to happen.

The flnal tape. which Norma Gluckstern and I are going to do. is on teaching skills. Queof the thlnlls that can be done as an additional stratee:y In belplng is to tead;, ~certain of these skills And we'll briefly at the conclusion of this series, sb~can Integrate m1crosldUs as an adlunct. a supplementary part of your training.

SlJBTI1l.E: Teach cllents skills as well as learning them yourself.

So we've got lots to do. Thanks for coming. I look forward to working with you.

Title: End Segment 1Introduction

Tape 2: BasIc Ustenlng Sequence

TlTIE: The Basic LIstening Sequence

Allen: As our first video. we're going to demonstrate the basic listening sequence. Ifwe're going to hear the client's story, we need to use the listening skills of openquestions. closed questions if necessary. encourages. paraphrases. reflection of feeling,and summary, We really need to hear that story, both the facts. the feelings, and howthe story is organized. In addition to listening to the story. we also think It's lmportantto move towards re-storytng, and that Is finding some positive strengths and positiveassets in the client.

We're going to take a difflcult, troublesome topic In this case, and that Is the case ofsexual harassment. And for years. women were not allowed to tell their stories. Theywere to keep their mouths shut. in effect. and live with it. I mean. we now know it'simportant to hear the stories. find the strengths that women have to offer--Internalstrengths--brtng strengths from other people. and then we can=once we've heard theirstory and their strengths. we can start moving to some specific solutions. In this tape.we're not going to move to solutions. We're simply going to draw off the stories and lookfor some of those strengths.

TITLE: The BLS: Sexual HarrassmentAllen Ivey with Kathryn Bohn

Allen: So, Kathryn, here we are, our third session. We've been talking about you andMichael. How are th~s going with him?

Kathryn: Well, things are going well. I--thanks for asking. Um.vBut actually I want tokind of move away from that=that and-sand talk. to you about something else thathappened, urn. to me Ute other day.

Allen: eQuId you tell me some mQre? Ten me what's 20lng Qn there?

Open question

Kathryn: Urn, well. someone paid me a compliment at work and I'm not quite sure howto maybe react to that.

Allen: They paid YQu a cQIDpllment?

SUBTITLE: Encourage

Kathryn: Yeah-va-sa man. My boss. Urn. My Immediate supervisor. Urn. Paid--uh--told me I had great looking legs!

Allen: Ah .. , And how did that make YQUfeel?

SUBTITLE: Open question

Kathryn: Well, urn, I think it would have been okay if it just, maybe left it at that. Or, Imean, I felt a little bit. you know, uh, uh, you know, affronted with it. like he's neverreally talked to me before and all of a sudden he's complimenting me on my. you know,my nicely sculpted legs-sycu know, to paraphrase him. Sorta going on about it.

Allen: SQ really kind or·-kind of felt affronted. You felt kind of--

15athtyn· Small

Alls:.n..; I understand YQufelt Idnda smail. Demeaned by this, That's not great.

SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling

Kathryn: No, 1--1 don't think it is. And l'm--I don't know. I--I'm not sure how tc--whatto do next.

Allen: Hrom, So one of the thtrnls YQu'd like to talk about Is maybe dQin2 SQmethln2about it Uh So--so far--so far I've kind of 22t the general thing, byt we might want tolIet just a few more details I hear that this guy came in uh talked about yoyr--your IelisI alsQ hear that you felt small and. ub the whole idea of treatiP2 women like obj eets canmake them feel small And then uh I felt affronted--I kind Qfinternreted maybe at thebegiIU11ng--anger there. perhaps.

SUB1TILE: Summary of Kathryn's story

Kathryn: Perhaps 'cause I haven't, maybe. done something. 1--1mean. I feell1ke Ishould do something, But what?

Allen: So you kind of feel a need maybe to dQsomethin(i. And I think that'slmDQrtant

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase

1TrLE: In the followtng exchange. Allen talks upfrontabout male/female difference in the helping relationship.

Before we go any farther. Just to make sure that. uh, we're okay. 'cause here you aretalking about sexual harassment With a=wtth a man. And I--make--make sure thatyou're okay. 'Cause sometimes, you know. well, you know men!

Kathryn: (small laugh)

Allen: Sometimes, regardless of we work on the issues between you and Michael(and I thlnk that=of course. part of the thtngl. I think I helped you to see Michael'sframe of reference. And I think I've been able to bear yours as well. But, I want you tofeel able to express your feelings. So if I'm not totally on target, come back at me and I'lldo the best I can. How do you feel about continuing with this with me?

Kathryn: I feel pretty good.

Allen: Okay.

Kathryn: Yeah. I do.

SUBTITLE: Stop tape.Discussing gender or cultural difference between counselor and client isimportant. At issue, however. Is the matter of bow it Is done and the tlmlng.What are your opinions of this example?

Allen: So I hear that you'd like to do something. Uh. but uh SQcould vau tell mewhere dQes this 211ystand in relationship tQYQu? Is be--he--is he your bQss?

SUBTITLE: Open and closed questions

Kathryn: He's my boss. Um.

Allen: He's YQurbQss, And he tells YQUwhat tQdQ, Is that Ti2ht?

2

SUB1lTLE: Paraphrase with check-out

Kathryn: Well. yeah. 1mean. we work as a team and I=um. I'm with a bunch of otherpeople. but I'm working most directly with him and I--Ijust--l'm not sure where to gowith it. 1mean. should I--should 1wear pants to work? Or. you mow. what--what--should 1 ever. you mow. dare wear a skirt again? 1 mean, is It--Is the conversationgonna focus on me again? Urn. And--and he made a reference to his girlfriend saying."Oh, I wish she had legs like that." And then I think. ''What a ptg-headedjerk he Is!" Youknow? Imean. you should just love someone for who they are and not what they looklike. and then 1--1 don't mow. Ijust--(sigh)--I--I don't know,

Allen: So It was a piece of the puzzle I really hear you saying loud and clear. thatthis fiuy is really com1ng across pretty stronfi and heavy on you. I ~et the feel!nfiyou'reyeinidemeaned You feel angry Uh Uh. And you want to do something.

SUBTITLE: Bnefsununmy

But before we get Into what you're doing. uh, I'd klnda like to know a little bit about. uh,how are you reacting now when he brlnfis up this Issue with you? What are younwhatare yay doing? I kinda fiet a picture ofwhat he's dOing but what are vou doing Inrelationship to him?

SUB1lTLE: Open questionConcreteness

Kathryn: I thlnk--I mean. I'm--I'm trying to keep a distance. I think. I feel like IfI--IfIapproach him or--or get close to him In a situation. urn. you know, If 1 try to show himan example of. like, of,work and 1--1don't--I-I feell1ke maybe he's looking at me or--orchecking me out. 1--1think I'm-·I think I'm creating a distance and a wall that--thatshouldn't exist between a boss and a--you know. someone like myself. It--It--

Allen: So this Is the gw who tells you what to do and yet younyou want to keepaway from hlm


Kathryn: And 1can't. 1mean. 1need to work with him.

Allen: OkaY I'd like you to ~et lust a little more specific than that Could vou teUme he Is--getnget back In the situation where he comments so directly and offenSivelyi!bout your lelis. What did you do? What did you say? When It happened?

SUBTI1LE: Open questions. concreteness

Kathryn: 1-+-1 was--I sort of looked down and--and was real conscious like 'Wellyou know 1--1--1run you know 1--1try to work out"

SUBTITLE: Note vocal hesitations

Almost defending. urn. rny--rny situation. Urn. And--and because I felt like. you know,because he was looking at them. he was looking at them with a critical eye. maybe. notwlth--you mow, and--and really kind of checking me out. If you will. And 1--1--1got aItttle-vycu mow, I looked down. '1 try to work out. 1 try to keep In shape." And-·and--

Allen: Okay, now I'm going to stop you 'cause what r hear you doing Is. I hear youli,avtng--you looked down uh Nso I klnda heard that you were kinda--aJrnost tOQkIt asIf it were your fault what was ~Qlng on Rather than him Am I hearing you correctly?

3

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase with check-out

Kathryn: Yeah, you know? 1--1 felt bad that--l mean. that he saw me. you know. well.first I should explain. I mean, I was leaving work to go for a run. And so I was in shorts.I wasn't In a-dn a dress or something like that. I mean. I was In shorts--my runningshorts--and 1mean. 1--1felt bad. 1--1--1sort of--apologizlng for how 1 looked and-sandthat it was the office and--and that I wouldn't look Uke this way again.

Allen: .Now as you look at that. you felt bad


Just look at--back at that. We also talked about anger. What Is the emotion that mightbe more-what emotion--I hear--I can understand why you'd feel bad. 'Cause you put--your boss Is there and so forth. But. what are some other emotions you might actuallyreally feel In a situation like that?


Kathryn: Anger.

Nlen: &DW

SUB1TI1.E:Encourage.

Kathryn: Urn. S-·sort of a sadness.

Allen: An~er, Sadness.

SUBTITLE: Encourage

Kathryn: Urn. Frustration.

Allen:~

Yeah In a sense 1 also get a little feeling of maybe-- I think those are right on

SUBTITLE: Feedback

Also maybe feellm! ofbeln~ trapped because he Is your boss.

SUBTITIE: Reframe, mild Interpretation

Kathryn: Oh! Completely trapped! I mean, you mow. what's the comeback line onthat one? (rueful laugh) 1don't know!

Allen: Okay. So what we're going to do now. uh, Isjust shift a little bit. as I kind ofhear the situation.

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: Before we come back with a coroeback--and 1think we need. uh, just look atsome of the own=the strengths that you have. And later on. uh, in the Interview I'd liketo start working on some come-back lines. And maybe we're going to have to go to the.uh. do some real sharp stuff on this. And see Ifwe can negotiate that. as well. But for themoment. uh, J can see that you kinda feel. nunm. uh well. basically what I'd like to dQ Isfocus a little bit on some of your strengths,

4

SUBTITI.E: Positive asset search Allen: One of the things I'd like to do when 1work on difficult Issues like this. is notlust start from a position of feeling weak and demeaned I'd ll~fB:~~strengths Another thing Is that sometimes It's useful to think Lm n role~

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And. uh, Ijust--I wanted to get two. Could YOutell me uh first Ofall about:what you think you're do~ ~od on the Job? IJust want to hear one of those.

SUB1TfLE: Open question

TITLE: The positive asset search.To help a client butld a new story,we recommend finding internal and external strengths andsupports. We grow from our strengths.

Kathryn: I think my work is. urn, I'm writing well.

Sl'BTITLE: Information-sharing

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And. uh, how they might handle the situation. Who Isaua hero for yoy as awoman? A role model that yoy'd !lkeusometirnes think about

SL'BTITLE:Open question

Kathryn: I mean. 1-·1--1think of my mother. I really do.

Allen: Mmm-hmm Allen: You think of your mother

Kathryn' Urn. I'm meeting deadlines.

~ Mmm-hmm

SliBTITLE: Paraphrase

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm. I think of her inner strength. Urn. To stand up. Notjust in theface of controversy or like this. you know. maybe sexual harassment, but Justeverything. She stood up. back stratght--Kathryn' And I'm--! have reaJly--l'm--l'm showing that--I'm--I'm showing that I'm--

I'm liste~ to the clients andu! work with a lot of clients I'm showing that I'mUsten1ne to them and I'm reacting to what they're Ustening--and I feel that those arethree great skills to have in my profeSSion.

Allen: Mmrn-hmm.

l.\llm' Mmm-hmm. Kathryn: +you know, Just right there. Urn. Divorced, You know. Urn. I mean. one ofvel)' few women, urn, to get a doctorate at-oat her age.

SUBTITLE:'Note Mmm-hmm's as encourages Allen: You sound ven'proud of her.

Kathryn: And I feel--

Allen: And as your saying that. 1like the way that you're standing up proudly '1 do--I can listen. 1can speak to clients effectively. And! can--really got my act tocrether" Ireally hear that. And It makes me feel good to hear that. And 1 also lust like the waythat you--so you do have some streneths. And I would lust point out brtetly that thosestreneths that you already have you could perhaps transfer to working With your boss,Your standini! up speaklni! directly, and so forth Nowwe're going to need to do a littlepit more work--

SUBTI'ILE: Feedback. self-disclosure on positive strengths

SUBTJ'ILE: Reflection of feeling

Kathryn: Ohl . I--! idolize her! I--! think that she really, YID, you know, she. to me. isthe model of--of. urn, of strength In a woman.

Allen: Mmm-hmm. So you really have a strong woman model.


Kathryn: I did.

Allen: Mrnm-hmm.

Allen: And you a1soulnteresting enough to me as I look back--how does some ofyour mother's streneths already show in some of your work on the lOb. in yOu?

SU31TfLE: Open question

Kathryn: Well. 1 think--I just think my ability to interact With people and to be. youknow, urn, focused on them and to. you know, to listen well. Urn. You know. she listenswell to people and she reacts well to people. Urn. And as I say she. you know, she kills'em Withniceness. She just never has this angry=angryness about her. Urn. But. Imean, she Just--she just reacts positively to=to a situation.

Allen: So Doethin4iyou can really draw from your mother is the need to drawpositively.

Kathryn: Yeah! (small laugh)

Allen: --but now that you've already had the strengths--how does that come across?

SUBTI'ILE: Check-out

Kathryn: That--that sounds good. I mean. for one, it wouldn't be faking it. 1--1feel it'ssomething I can draw from. from my own experience.

Kathryn: And--and maybe put a little of the work that I do with clients on him. And--and really. yeah. I'd--I'd Uke to try that.


5 6

Kathryn: Uh-huh,

Allen: At the same time you may have to not always be totally posit!ye--

SUBTITLE: Confrontation

Kathryn: Well. not totally posltlve. I mean--but 1mean. just In--in the--tn the face of.like. a stranger or a professional sUo_you know. or Just somethmg like that. Imeanposstbly-> .

Allen: 50-:59 I heWn I hearnalso hear In this perhaps a c!ue-;and your motherbelD2 nice--and--and with the strenlUh and baclqaound there also is anoth--U's--sometJmes to stand up and speak forthrightly and directly. And, lih. that you Can--YOUcertainly demonstrated that. And what we're going to do in the next phase--is I'd like todo a Uttle role pl~ with you. about how you might stand up, At the same time aUtile bit later In the session. I'd kinda Uke to talk to you about--do we need to go to sometype of more fonnal type of thing? So there's lots of things that can be done but Iwantyou to lmow that uh I've heard that you do have some Issues 00 the Job,

Kathryn' Mmm-hmm,

Allen' Uh I've heard the feeling of the demeanim~ I lust want to con1rast that withthe feeling of strength from your mother--

Kathryn: Mmm-hmci.

Allen' --the strength thatth you yourself are al d hat workiIW those together I thlnkrea.;y sowing ODthe lob So I thinkflu:2 we can do something So how does It seem to you 59

SUBITILE:·Summary with check-out

Kathryn: I thlnk--I--I think it's good. The process is good. It feels good to me. It feelsnatural. I'm not drawing from something that--tbat doesn't exist.

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Kathryn: Yeah. I think we're on track. 1--

Allen: I--I'm--

Kathryn: --think we can move forward.

Allen: Another thin" 1 think we perhaps want to need to lOOkat a Uttle later on isasserttveness training And, uh, along that line, uh. I think It's Important that youshare this With some other women Imean you're working wJth me more as acounselor- therap 1st

SUBTI1LE: Advice/information-sharing

rrna. End BLS

Kathryn has told her story andstrengths have been defined.We are ready to "restory" andthink about the situation difTerently.

TITLE:

In the assertiveness example tape,Norma Cluckstern will work With Kathryn00 moving to behavioral action.

7

Tape 3: Focuslng

TITLE: Focusing the NarrativeHelping the Client See Multiple Perspectives

Norma: There are many ways to listen to a client's story. But what is really ImportantIS that we listen to the story as the client is telling it to us. Focusing analysis will helpyou and the couns--cl1ent--uh, focus In on a variety ofperspectlves of the story.

However, many beginning counselors make the mistake of focusing on the initialpresenting issue when what is really necessary is that we help thecl1ent experience thISISSue. seeing it from their perspective and experience it from their perspective. In theinterview that follows. Billy IS going to help AlIen--who will be presenting hIS problem--view it and experience it from a variety of perspectives.

TITLE: Focusing: Individual Issues Relate to Family and Cultural StyleBUly Roberts with Allen Ivey

Allen: (heavy sigh) So, BJIly. I really need. uh, some help. Uh. Here I am in, uh,Massachusetts. My dad's. uh, blind and out in Seattle and (sigh!) it's. uh.jt's really a--ahassle. I mea--I'm getting real puzzled about how to--how--how--how to be helpful. It's--it's really pretty something.

Billy: Well, have X9u ~one out to see him?

SUBTI1LE: Closed question.

Allen: Uh, yeah. I've gone out to talk to them and, uh, so forth. But it's very, veryexpensive, And then I get out--I'm only out there for a couple of days. And (sigh) I ldndarun around l1ke crazy and I just do the best I can, and I Just sort of--gettin' wound upabout it.

Billy: Yeah, Well you know, maybe uh there's some nUrsing homes you can puthim....!!L.

SUBTITLE: Focus on problem:Premature advice.

Allen: I don't think he's quite ready for a nursing home. Urn. I think he's still--youknow, he--he IS blind but he does have Muriel there to help him. His--and I think that'sgood.

Billy: Urn Muriel is a good friend of his?

Allen:

SUBTITLE: Focus on others:Closed question

Th--that's--that's his, uh, it's his second wife, yeah.

Db-huh Well maybe the thing to do is Just to uh. call Muriel regularly and--Billy:

SUBTITLE: Focus on problem:SUll more advice

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

1

B111y: --you know. give her some direction. Maybe you can hire somebody else tohelp. uh--

SUBTITLE: Focus on problem

Allen: (inhalation) Ummmmm--well. I've been already doing that and--and soforth, And. uh, uh, I do try to call every week. Sometimes a couple of times a week. Uh.Okay. I think that's probably enough for a demo. Uh. (pause)

rrn.E: The inexperienced helper too often tries to find solutions beforehearing the client's story.

Billy: Okay. In that example. an example of bow not to. participate tn helpmgsomeone. we didn't take the time to really understand. the person or the Situation theywere facing. We didn't draw out, urn, from the person any of their concerns. We merelystepped In and started to give suggestions and advice.

What we want to try to do now is to spend the time to understand--understand thesituation and to invite the person to share a little more of their understanding and theirexperience In--In the helping 'process.

rrn.E: Focusing: Hearmg the story, seeking strengths. and multipleperspectives for possible restorymg,

Allen: Hmm. Okay? Okay. So. Billy. uh, there It is. I'm here In Massachusetts anddad's out there. and, uh, I'm really kmda puzzled about what to do.

Billy: Yoy're a Uttle--X9u're pretty worried about him huh?

SUBTITLE: Focus on clientReflection of feeUng

Allen: Yeah! Uh. Jees, my dad's done an awful lot for me. And, uh, here I am. youknow, three thousand m1les away--twenty-nve hundred miles away, and I'd really lJketo do more. And 1--1feel ldnda guilty. 1--1do what I can. Uh. The phone and so forth.But. uh, it leaves me feeling k1nda--kinda sad and [get somethlng--you know me, 1getkinda anxious about it too. sometimes.

Billy: Hmm. Can vou--can you tell me a little bit about your dad's situation?

SUBTITLE: Focus on FatherOpen question

Allen: Well, dad's, uh, blind and, uh, Muriel--his second wife--uh. and Illy motherdied of cancer about ten years ago--and she's been very good and very supportfve. Gee,now, they're eignty-ftve. Uh. He just-she Just had his eighty-flllh birthday and they'regetting kinda frail. And, uh, I really would like to be closer and be more supportive to'em. More supportive. Uh. In one sense they're pretty vital and bright. Of course, notonly blind. he's--he's pretty deaf. as well.

Billy: Mmm.

Allen: 50--

Billy: So you're It--you're worried about both of them?

SUB1TILE: Focus on client and parents:Reflection of feeling

2

Allen: (affirmative sound) Oh, yeah. And. uh, so it's klnda hard In this longdistance to--tomake things happen. And. uh, (inhalation) and then here. uh, uh, I'vestill got a job to do. Uh. And the kids. 00. I've got these=these college bills. And. uh,jeesl Uh. (heavy sigh) It's really--U's really an awful lot going on. And I find myself notsleeping so well at night, right now.

TITLE: An important choice point. Billy could continueto focus on Allen's worries and feelings. He chooses to movethe focus to a broader understanding.

Btlly: Mmm-hmm. Whatnwhat--what kind of urn. plans have you made? Haveyou thought about any. you !mow. urn possible al--altematives? Options?

SUB1TI1..E:Focus on problem:Open question

Allen: At this point. uh, (sigh) I'm sitting there kind of. uh, (pause) I think kind of--1--1 guess I don't lmow. I really haven't done an awful lot. Uh.

there some familYAl Are-cts=arek something elseLet--Iet me asBilly:expectattons--

A~ M.mm

WilY' --that you ~ll assume res--some of the responsibility um--

fJl.e.n' Mmm

IDl!Y.;. --for vour dad andn

all.!:n..; Mmm-hmm.

WilY' --uh, as he gets older?

SUB1TI1..E:Focus on client and family

Allen: (inhalation) You know, that's one of the places where I do get. uh. a Uttleconfused. you know. Uh. I come from a--anbasically a Anglo-Celtic background Mydad actuaUy Is Ce1t1c-CQrn.1shand uh I was kinda raised In one of these familieswhere--stand in your own boat. I was encouraged to get out on my own. get away fromhome. all that stuff and so forth. And. uh. and. uh. the boundaries in our--our familyhave been prettv t1ght.

SUBTm...E: Individual styles often relate tofamily and cultural history

And yet, this is always that very difficult issue. "When do I move in?" Uh. And. uh, takeover more? And. uh, and I want to stand back at the same time.

Bll ly: Mmrn-hrmn. Has your dad. urn, given you any Indication of. you know.where he Is in terms of wanting your assistance or--?

SUBTITLE: Focus on father and problem:Closed qu esuon

3

Allen: Well. that actually is a good question. Billy. Is that, uh, as you say that. Ikinda feel a--anxiety In my stomach and I said to my--"Ohl" (inhalation) In one sense,I'm pushing a little hard, uh, being him and who he is, I think he'd kInda wanna hangon tough as long as he could. And, uh, maybe I oughta lay back a little bit more.

1TILE: Note that this timely closed question worked and led Allen to a newperspective of understanding his father's story more completely.Nonetheless. use closed questions carefully as they lead the client.

1TILE: Elaborating the story using focus analysis

--I'd hke to ask a couple of questions.Billy:

Allen:

Billy:

Allen:

Okay. Sure.

--and to focus on a couple of things, if we could.

Okay.

Billy: Urn, Uh. Could ¥Outell me a Uttle bit more about. urn uh, your--your familyof ortI1in? Urn You know because you're concerned about your dad and--and his wife.But are there-om there anybodye)se involved that needs to be concerned about this?

SUI31TILE: Focus on famIly:Open question

Allen: Ohl Oh, my sister is; uh, is, uh--she is, uh-vshe is really hassled. Ph, rightnow with her Job and, uh, uh , my kids are really basically through college and she'swork--working on the college thing and, uh, she backs up fairly well, pretty well. Ithink we all think we do more than our share. but I think she's doing her full sharewhere she is right now.

Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: But, uh, urn, she's supportive, certa1nly. But. uh, I klnda feel that--kinda r--kinda rests on my shoulders, uh, right now.

SUBTITLE: Note that Billy's frequently usesencourages to help draw out the story

Billy:

Allen:

Billy:

tJkn·

So you've talked to her about this?

SUBTITLE: Focus on family:Closed question

No.

Okay. But you still feel that the responsibility is yours?

Yeah I do feel as--

lllUy' And she agrees with you?

Allen:

SUBTITLE: Focus on client and family:Confrontation

Mmmm, well--

4

Billy: -- ... you've sort of done on your own?

Allen: --1 hear yoy Uh I don't know if that's what's you're saytne Xnother words Imay be takinfl (slflh) a little bit more Main on my shQulders. a little more responsibilitythan--X--X thlnk--X have not really talked about it No I hear yoy sayinfl that I'm klnda2Q~ on like the Lone Ranf,!er. uh. th1nk!nf,! about myself.

SUBTITLE: Confrontation results Innew perspective and insight

Billy:

Allen:

Well. It'S something--lt's something to think about anyway.

Yeah, I hear you.

f~ members that areb to-what about--are there awotherBilly: Okay what fLoUJuvolved?

SUBTITLE:·. Focus on family:Open question

Well. of course. uh, my wife and. uh, and my--and my--my boys.

~at--canyou talk a little bit abQut that situation?

SUInJTLE:Encourage

Allen: And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Mary's very supportive. Ub. She listens to me a lot.Uh. Her mother Is, uh, 18 moving along In years. too. and so we kinda share those issuestogether. We're very concerned. Sometimes we thlnk--and I think maybe Mary does, as--as I think about It--I think Mary probably 18 th!nk1ng the same thing. We're klndamoving her mother in before her mother's even (small laugh) thinking of closing downher house! I think maybe--both of us may be pushing a little too hard on this. Uh. AndI--If I start getting on myself and th!nk1ng about Mary--and then of course the thing 18,we have that whole pull from the--from the kids. And my boys are supportive. And, uh,in that sense (pause). okay. Iguess I'm not as alone In this thing as I thought I was.

Allen:

Billy:

Hmm. So your boys are interested In-sand Involved and want to help?

1TILE: Allen has focused so much on himself and hisresponsibilities that he has failed to note the many positivefamily resources which can help build a new and more positive story.

Allen: Yeah. Imean, like kids. they--you know, they--they kind of--little hard toimagine grampa getting older and all of that. But, uh, I'd say they're basicallysupportive and they'll give them a call now and then. Gone to see 'em. I'm lucky! I reallyam lucky. I--I--maybe I'm making more of thls--

Billy:

Billy: Well, you lmow Allen. some--you know, somethlne you say reminds me ofmY§.ill,.

bllen' Uh-huh?

:IDlli,' And that Is as the oldest in my famlly--

AJkn' Mmm, That's me,

lilllY' I have always assumed more responsibility than T probably need to

5

fJk.n; ~

~ I aJways want to sQrt of make syre th1nflSare f,!oinzwell and--

Alkn: Mmm-hmm

B!l1y: --and fix:thlnf,!s, And. uh, sometimes I have to slow down and take intoaccount that there are other people who are also involved,

Alkn: Mmm-hmm,

B!l1~ Especially the--the person I'm really concerned about.

All.c.n' ~Iill.l:x.' You know?

AIl~ Mmm-hmm,

~. Ke--!! (slf,!hl

SUBTITLE: Focus on counselor:Self-disclosure

Allen: I hear you.

Billy: Iwant--rnaybe--maybe you can tell me a little bit aboyt urn uh your--your--YQyr family bacIqaoynd cultural baclg!roynd

Alkn' Y~h,

Iill.l:x.' Partlcularlv your'dad and how he sees thinfls

SUBTITLE: Focus on culture/family

Allen: Yeah. he's, uh--In that sense, you know that. uh, I've given a lot of thought tornulticulturallssues in counseling, And part of that --I've gone Into my own culturalheritage and I've done a lot of work with the Cornish-Celtic group, And--

Billy: Can you tell me lust a U1tleabout the Cornish-Celtic f,!rQup?

SUBTITLE:Focus on cultureOpen question

Allen: Well, it=tt's Celtic, very much like the Irish. And It is incredibly stubborn.Independent. Uh, (pause) Tends to hold back emotions. Uh, Not talk a lot. Maybe alittle secretive. Very proud. Defiant. Uh. It's--and yet, and we have a say-there's a cul=-there's a saying in Cornwall, "One and All: which is kind of intriguing. And I think 1treally says we are individuals and yet we are together as well. And It's a little differentthan, uh, total Inner connection, It's klnda llke--it's a big emphasis on independence.

B!l1y: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And, god, uh, that certainly was true In my history. Is that. uh, I was alwaysexpected to get away, be on my own, be an individual and all of that, And as I've gotteninto multicultural--I've said, 'Why all this emphasis?' And 1--1really:mJss my dad!And I'm doing what, in fact, my family upbringing says. "Hey, I would like to be closer."

6

lTILE: Cultural tssues from the family of ongtn oftenappear In client here and now behavior

Billy: Mnun. So, I'd--I'd like to just go back because at the begfnnlng of yourdescription, XQU used the word "stubborn." And I wonder If we could translate that into"determined?"

SUB1Tl1.E: Focus on culture and family:Positive reframe/interpretation

Allen: yeah?

So you think that's a-better word?

Yeah, And that certainly describes my dad!

Billy:

Allen:'

Billy: Okay,

Allen: He's such--so gutty.

Billy: Okay So he's a very IndMduallstlc detennined k1ndaperson Urn LIkesto be self-contained,

SUBTITLE:Focus on father and culture:Reframe/lnterpreta tion

Allen: Yeah.

And I'm sure doesn't want to be dependent?Bmy:

Allen: Oh! (whew!) Ah, he doesn't want to be dependent, you got it! That is thatcultural frame. And--and It's that family frame.

Bmy: So part ofyour stru~e;le Is how to help without crossing that boundary?

SUBTITLE: Focus on client, family, and cultureInterpretation/reframe

Allen: Yeah. Mmm-hmrn. And I have--yeah. Yeah, It=tt's true. And, uh, he seemsto like my support but If I start doing too much, it's--mmm.

Billy: Mmm. Well, you--maybe we can sort of think, now having sort oflooked atsome of those elements, where you are With thls--!--I don't know If any of this has sortof helped you to sort out --

tJkn· ~Bill.v.; --any ofyour--your thoughts and feelings,

SUB1TI1..E: Focus on client:Open question

Allen: Yeah. Well. Yeah. in--In a broad sense, I begin to see that. uh--in fact. Bill,just talking to you--and this--J mean, this is not just, you know, for the tape and likethat. I can reel-·not Just because it's on tape--! can feel my shoulders knot as much likethis I kinda fee! like uh uh you know a little more centered about It Vb 'Cause theIssue really is--is one that I k1nda struggle with

7

SlJBTlTLE: Alleviation of concernsoften shows In the body

Billy:

Allen:

Mmm.

And it is a pattern for me to (small pause) overkill.

Billy: Mmm-hrnm.

Allen: And worry a problem to death. And--

So, um, but=but the--the wony is not always bad, is It?

No.

Billy:

Allen:

Billy: It's just how you act on it?

Yeah,Allen:

Billy: Okay, So. yoy knoW wh--what--what are vou thinking about now as--aspossible courseS of actIon? Wbat--what do yoy feel like yoy oue;ht to do or want to do orneed to do now?

SUBTIILE: Return to problem focus and the client:Open question

Allen: (sigh) Yeah, I think that. you know, Just--eh--in dealing with you here and--and sort of focusing on It from another perspective. I sit there and say-·I'm tnclmed,number one, to=and -It--lt's almost like I need to just relax In my gut. And. uh, not pushso hard. Uh, J think I need to stay on the phone, stay alert, make sure that the--the helpis there. And I tbJnkwe need to get somebody In, uh, constantly. And 1don't think Ihave seen to that. to see='cause dad's going to say everything is fine when It might not befine, And If I'm over here, I think we're going to have to follow up with that. So I think.there is some action I've gotta take. And, uh, but I've been sort of going on as If I shoulddo It. And I think I need to (sigh) talk to my sister. older brother needs 10 talk to youngersister! (laugh) I Identify With what you're saying! Say, well. maybe we oughta have alittle more open chat about this. I've got some beginning ideas. Thank you, Billy.

Billy: You're welcome,

1ITLE: Billy reviews the session

Well. this was to me an interesting, uh, Interaction With Allen and his concern abouthis dad and-- and taking care of him, Urn. I think what we tried to do was to focus ondifferent elements of concern that he had, to try to identify them, put some--inake themconcrete so that he could then sort of. uh, Interpret them and tn=tncorporate them Intohis. urn, decision-making process. Uh. One of the things that we didn't have a chance todiscuss was some of his perhaps angry feelings about being saddled with thisresponsibility. Uh. In my conversation With him after this. uh, Interaction that yousaw, he indicated that. uh, when his mom died about ten years ago, there were a 10ttafeelings that he had back then, and he had a chance to work through. Urn. So that Isn'tsuch a major concern. But anger. uh, does sort of surface, or the residuals of the angerdoes sort of surface periodically and one has to be sort of mindful about that.

Uh, the--the very, um, I think useful thing about this interaction for you might be thatyou have a chance to identify the tndfvtdual and their concerns, the familial concerns.

so that it's In a context. But then also the=the cultural entities. Urn. those elements ofone's his .. history and one's cultural experience that enters Into every interaction. uh,and it must be understood and appreciated and valued in order to be really helpful to=toa person. So. Uh. I look forward to, uh, helping you again.

TITIE: End Focusing

Tape 4: Confrontation

TITLE: Confrontation: Supporting While Challenging

Allen: Our next skill is that of confrontation. No. we're not Interested In havingyou, uh, attack your client. We aren't Interested In you tearing apar--confrontation is aword that somehow the counseling field has chosen to help a client identify when theyaren't being fully consistent wtth themselves. Ah, In someways I prefer to think aboutthe word "challenging" and think of It as, by the way, a supportive challenge.

So what, uh, we'd like to begin this tape with Is Identifying some dlscrepancles theclients might show and then as you Identify discrepancies, I'd like you to think about amodel confrOntation so-sentence. Which basically is supportive. And It kind of beginswtth, '1 hear you saying--"-- supportive--"--on the one hand, such-and-such, but on theother hand I hear you saymg such-and-such. How do you put those two together?" Andbelieve It or not. sometimes. just actually hand-balancing to point out the differencecan actually be useful sometimes--to "phystcahze" the session. So we're going to dosome quick. short demos of inconsistencies and--or--or dlscrepancies. Identify thediscrepancies and try some of the model sentences. "On one hand this, and on the otherhand that,"

TInE: Identifying Discrepancies and Incongruity

TITI...E:Observe these clients. Identify discrepanciesand reflect them back via a supportive confrontation

TITLE:Vignette 1: Incongruity between people(Stop tape after each vignette)

Billy: You know, I'm really sort of a--an adventuresome kind of person. Uh, I liketo travel to different countries and explore different cultures and really understandfirst-hand. experientially, what they're like. And, uh, I'd like to do that as much and asoften as I can. But I have a challenge. And that Is my wife. who I'd love to share it withme, is really a homebody. She prefers to stay close to home and to do things there. SoI'm constantly In this bind of wanting to go and wanting to also be with her, wantingher to come, and wanting to be where she Is. SOIt'S. you know, It's--It's awkward.

TITI...E:Stop tape

On one hand. Billyyou feel ....but on the other hand, your wife feels ...(As appropriate ~ supportive followup.)

TITLE: vignette 2: Incongruity between words and action(Stop tape

Oouder) 1don't know what the problem Isl My report's only a week late!

TITLE:Stop Tape. "Mary. on one hand ... , but on the other hand ... "

TITLE: vignette 3: Discrepancy between words andfeelings

Allen: I don't know why you say I'm nervous. Uh. I--I've prepared for this projectfor a long time and, uh, I'm going to be fine. Don't=don't worry about me. (pause) (sigh)I'm really feeling torn. Uh. One part of me really wants, uh, to do what you suggest. 1--1--1really do. But I keep th1nldng about. you know. what might happen if I actually did itand it makes me feel a UttJe(rtghtened. I like the Idea that--that--wow. (pause)

Mary:

1

TTI1..E:Stop tape: OITerAllen a supportive confrontation

1TfLE: Vignette 4: Incongruity In family

Kathryn: My sister and I are planning this blg party for my parents. And as soon as weget Involved in the plans, she Just takes a back seat to the whole thing and--and justwants me to do It all. I don't have time. but 1--1have to! This is their party; we want tomake it perfect! (pause)

TITI..E:Stop tape:Given dimensions of denial. how are you going to be supportive and confrontKathryn?

TITI..E:vignette 5: Incongruity between actions and words

Norma: Just because I'm trying to straighten out your shirt doesn't mean I'mattacking you. I'm satisfied With the way you look. but why don't you fix that shirt?(pause) You already resent-the way you presented the--my comments, and said I wasdefenstve. I don't think I'm a defensive person. I think I've been pretty open to you. AndI really reject anything that you told me. (pause)

TITI..E:Stop tape: How would you confront Norma?Given dimensions of denial, how are you going to be supportive?

TITI...E:Confrontation: Problematic patterns In one relationshipoften appear In the next relationship as wellMary Ivey with Norma Gluckstern

Mary: Hi. Norma. How're you doing?

Norma: Good.

Mary: Good. Nice to see you. Well, I guess well continue talking about the things wewere talking about before. the marriage situation now and what It was like before andwhat it's like now.

Norma: You know-Ipauser-dt's the second marriages, you know. And I--I'm reallyvery happy In my marriage with Bill. .

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: Bu t 1see the same thing ha ppentng with Bill that happened when I wasmarried to John. And it seems to me that I'm always wrong. They're never wrong. Andno matter what I do, no matter what I say--and I try to be cooperative-owe always sink tothese petty arguments. And I just--I justfee1 that U's--it's not my fault. And 1 doeverything to do to help the situation and instead I get back, well. you are--you're beingunreasonable. Norma. And I--Just--just (slgh)--I don't see myself as being unreasonable.I really think I am very reasonable.

Mary: Mrrun-hmm. Mnun-hrom. So it sounds like urn the situation from the lastmarrla~e !soots the same kind of pattern occurrin~ In--In this marria~e And --and urnthey're sa~ you're not very reasonable and you think you're vexy reasonable.


2

Norma: And, you know, 1--1think I'm always gMng In to arguments. I'm alwaysgMng In. It's always giVing In. And at times I feel. well. maybe I'm right! And that 1never hear them say, "You're right." It always they're right. And it just seems we'regetting Into the same pattern that 1got into with John. I'm getting In with Bill. And it Iscreating some problems In the marriage. 1have to admit It's creating problems In themarriage.

Mary: Mmm-hmm. Okay. so the kinds of problems that you had In the firstmarriage are very similar to what you're expetiencing right now and--and urn theIssues are--are kind of similar and it has to do with arguing.

SUBTITLE: Accurate paraphrasing is supportive

Norma: Mmm-hmm.

onsilile for any ofm feeling re--resp n hear in yourhear you not u other hand I ca. And on the one :~~u before and ~e~1his relationship.Mary. ut ou know, I've What's happe~ to ythis b Y ger about wvoice some an

SUBTITLE; ..Confrontation

Norma: Absolutely. Absolutely. And. uh, I don't know, uh. well, 1 don't really knowwhat to do about it. Um. Because--and it starts over Just trivial things. And we canread--be reading the newspaper and--and finding out what's going in the world and, uh,urn, Bill will say, 'Well. I think this is happening," and I'll say. 'Well, I don't thinkyou're right." And then he gets indignant because I I'm telllng him I don't think he'sright. 1 don't understand why he should get indignant about that.

Mary: Mmm-hmm. So you're--buton the one hand. you're saying you're ,,"1 don'tthink you're tight." YOu Wow. you're telling him sort of angrtlv. "I don't think you're~ht." And then he gets uPset about It. So. you lmow. you're saying naughter Invoice!.you Wow. "I don't think you're right" On the other hand. you lmow. maybe there'resome other ways that you could. uh express how you're feeling with him, And th~scould work out a Uttle better,


Nonna: Well, you point out something that. uh, that 1hadn't thought about. Becauseit is sort of like a confrontation. We all--we--we seem to get Into sort of this competitivething --'Who's going to wln the argument?" 'And 1don't think of myself s beingcompetitive, But he keeps telling me, "But you are competitive and you're always tryingto see if you can one-up me and that really Irks me."

Mary: So on the one hand. you're--he's saying you're competitive, but you're not--and you're saying you're not competitive And I remember from the other marriagethat uh. competition waS a bill Issue.


That, uh, the competition between the two of you and--and sounds like that pattern isoccurring again. And he's pointing out and you're not seeing that there is somecompetition between the two of you.

Nonna: Well, you know, Mary. 1never thought of myself being competitive. And so tobe honest with you. even though 1--1think I'm just competitive With myself. I didn'tthink I was competitive. say. wIth you or with somebody else. And so. really, It--it's notthe viston I have of myself as being competitive.

3

Mary: Mrnro-hmm. So you don't see yourself as be~ competitive.

Norma' No

Mary' But tbey--they say you're competitive ¥Qur--your vision of yourself is notcompet1tlye. But everyboc1Yelse's--the men in voyr lifc seC yoy as bclnt in competitionwith them.


1Tl1.E: BRIEF PORrlON OF INIERVIW cur HERE

Mary: Okay, Norma. we've been talking a little bit and 1think 1 understand thesttuanon, But let's--let's see jfwe can't talk about a specific e;grrnole and see ifwe can'tunderstand this Just a little bIt better

SUBl1TLE: Concreteness

Norma: You know. if we're reading the newspaper or watching the news orsomething, and--and there'll be some interesting--happening in the world .. .And he'llsay, 'You know, I think that. uh, this is my opinion of what's going on in thatsituation." And then I sometimes don't think he's analyzed it right now, and I'll say,"No, 1don't think It's right." Or I say. '1 don't think it's right. And this is the way IthInk--that I look at it." And this thing starts escalating and all of a sudden we're in acompetition. Who's right about the article or who's right about what the reporterssaying. And, urn, I think be's unreasonable. I think that I am fairly reasonable. I'm--and he tells me my voice is up--unreasonable and it just--and it begins to escalate. Andthen all of a sudden what I think happens is we become in competition, who's gonnawin. One up, one down. And It's--tllen--as I'm talking, but I mean. I'm so angry[frustrated laugh)--

Mary: Well. it SQunds--sounds like you're saying on the one hand that. uh. youknow he thinks you're unreasonable and and you don't You think you're veryreasonable, On the other hand--uh on the other hand as you talk. Norma I hear thatanger c01J1lneout as you're talkin" about the sItuation So. uh Perhaps you are a littlebit angry! And he's tight!

SUBTI1LE: Confrontation

Norma: All right, let me-vlet me just calm down a little bit. Uh, because this is a··what happens, then, is I start getting depressed. And I start feeling--well. I guess 1startfeeling, well, he doesn't care about me. 'Cause ifhe cared about me, he would--ifhe lovedme, he would certainly, uh, pick up on what I was feeling and maybe he'd think [wasright. And so I get depressed and then he Withdraws and I withdraw. And then we gostalking around the house for a week. And I really think It's his fault. He never reallyreaches out and comes to me. And Iv-and I reach out and come to h:!m and [just think herejects it.

Mary: So you feelllke you reach out to him and then he isn't doing anyt:h~ andhe's not belplW and dOinllhis part. And--and you don't. uh. seem to take anyrespoDSlbU!b' for your interaction In thIs is that you sound J[keyou're always rtaht


You lmow, thlngs--so much of the--what happened in the previQus marriage were thecompetition there and--and you sort of blame It on the other person. And it's always.urn their fault. And not necessar11y your taking some responsibillty that--that youmIght have something to do with what's hapm:n1na In thIs relationship.

4

Kathryn: Oh, yeah.SUBTITI.E: Feedback

Norma: Well. you've pointed out something sort of interesting, Mary. that there Is asimilarity In what's going on between Bill and myself now, and what went on betweenJohn and myself. We would get Into these things and--and we'd all--I'd get all--thedialogue Is almost the same. But I guess I'm not really thought that I was contributing toit. And you're sort of pointing out to me that maybe I am. (sigh) Wen.

Mary: Right now I'm feeling you're looking at the situation just a little differently.As you'rebrlnglng--looklng at the past marriage and looking at the marriage now.How's that sound to you. Norma?

Norma: What--I think you're=you're right. That 1--1really hear what you're saying. Ireally understand 1t. But It's going to be hard for me to change! (small laugh) Gonna behard because. uh, oh, I already sound as if I'm ready to fight again! I want to be-dn fact.I'm already trying to JUstify to you and tell you you're wrong. So. uh, this seems to be apattern that I've established.

Mary: Mrom-hmm. As you're talklng you have a smile on your face and I can sUll~e~~~erly1ngnandYOU're annoyed at me and that underMng anger the same sort

f at you have towards your ex-husband and now you have this husband, so,


Norma: Right. Right. Right. This is really very helpful. Mary. And now I have to, uh,integrate It. ..

Norma: Well at least--I thought what I heard last week Is that you're tom betweenyour relationship with Michael and your commitment to your work,


Kathryn: (short laugh) Tom? I'm not tom. Michael's the problem. Mkhael--Mlchaelhas the total problem In this relatiOnship not me

SUBTITLE: Levell: Denial

Norma: Kathryn, YOU reallv reacted when! used the word 'lorn"

SUBITIlE: Feedback, reflection of feeling

Kathryn: Well. J--(sighl--l think he's--1 think he's there but he's just got--he'snhe'sgotta give a httle bU more But--but maybe--maybe he can't Maybe he can't be theredon't know.

SUBTITLE: Level 2: Partial aclmowledgment

Norma: As we were talldngJust now,it seemed to me that you were taking--understanding a little bit of how Michael was feelJ.ng. But how do you fit into thepicture?

TITLE: ldentlfying the Five Levels of theConfrontation Impact Scale

Norma Gluckstern with Kathryn Bohn

Kathryn: Well, I lqJow Michael's trv!n2 and L you }mow admtre him for that and Irespect him for that Urn I real1ze that yeah. that--that work Is a big deal to me andthat maybe! need to be a little bit more well-rounded balanced in my life And thatwork can have a rolena Very Important role. mind you. But that I also need to seeMichael's point of view and where he fits Into the picture and in our relationship,

SUBTITlE: Level 3: Full acknowledgment. no change

TITLE: Movtng acknowledgment of discrepancies to level 3. awareness Is avital beginning, but It is not action. In the next twoexamples. we see levels 4 and 5-mov!ng toward change.

Norma: The last time we were here you seemed to be understanding both yourperspective and Michael's perspective. but I wonder where you're going to go from here atthis point.

Kathryn: 1think 1..1think MIchael and J need t6 sit down and talk. urn I think weneed to, you know, lust have a--a very good con--open, urn, non-confrontationaL uh.conversation about my life my Job, and his life and then our life together as a whole,Because It is--! think we need to reach that stage I'm not sure how we're going to 2etthere, but 1know U's going to take some time But H think that's the next step (or us.Maybe we can talk about that, urn, next time.

Mary: Integrate itl (laugh]

Norma: And that may not be so easy, but. uh, and--and we could--ifyou don't mlnd,ifI could come and talk to you a Uttle bit more about this. because it's--

Mary: Oh, absolutely. Just to think about these thJngs and see what we--what wecan do. And--and see ifwe can do something about changing some of those patterns.

Norma: Then I can argue with you!

Mary: Okay. right! (laugh)

TITLE: End Confrontation Vignette

TITLE: The next segments Ulustratlon the ConfrontationImpact Scale. Note how Kathryn moves from denial to awareness. If youobserve your clients, you note how they respond to confrontation and otherinterventions, thus tndicatmg their willingness and ability to change andmove.

SUB1TI1E: Level 4: Moving toward change

Norma: The next time, we can talk about that. And then maybe I'll talk to you andgive you some ideas about how you deal with negotiating skills. 'Cause that's whatyou're going to try to do--

Kathryn: (laugh)Norma: Kath--Kathryn. urn. last week when we were here. you were talking aboutyour job and MIchael. Do you want to continue, uh, talking about that?

Norma: --negotiate the differences.

5 6

Kathryn: That would be really helpful

Nanna: Okay. GoodtalkJngtoyou.

Kathryn: Oood=yeah, thank you.

Nanna: Kathryn. this Is our third session and Irecall last time we talked about yourdeveloping some negotiation with Michael. And I'd Uke to know how it was going withyou. come to some resolution.

Kathryn: "Well I think we have urn I'ye--some decisions I've made--and I've had tomake them on my own-=ehanges about myself. have been. you know. keeping--workedto the work week. And. urn. not workini more than one late night a week. Urn. And notlYQrkinflon weekends really tly1nfl to keep those weekends too-for each other. Andbe.'s. urn be's realized the importance of my work Andnand no lonfler criticized it andaa1d that. you know well "I don't know why you're workini that much.

S~: Level 5. Transcendence

You're not=you're not getting paid enough" or something Uke that. And instead he's Justsuccumbed to the fact that--not succumbed. 1--1mean. he's-she's compromised and he'sseen that--that it makes me really happy. I feel really good about it and it's a passion ofmine. And 1think that. urn, that--that's really good for him. And I've seen that--that--he can be-she can be in that role and-sand be supportive. And yet I can change a little bitand-sand J think together we can sort of work out the differences that we have and. urn.sort of move together a little bit more smoothly.

Norma: 1 like whatI'm hearing and--

Kathryn: (laugh)

Norma: --sounds like you don't need any help now. But if you ever do. come back,

Kathryn: Well! Yeah. 1--1thtnk--I think we need to continue to=tc work on the--youknow. the communication factor, urn. as long as we continue to talk. Urn. I'm sure that.you know. Michael and I. you know. whatever mountain we face that we can climb It.you know. kind of together to give a really bad cliche. But that's good. I mean. I thinkthat's Important. It's good. Thanks, I really appreciate it.

'ITILE: End Confrontation Tape

7

Tape 15:Directives

TITLE: Directives: Case Example with Procrastination

William L. H. Roberts wtth Mary lvey

Billy: HI, urn, the next sklll we're going to talk. about is the skill of directives. Uh, in thehelping process, it's useful, uh, to be able to provide the=the client with some specificdirections, uh, in order to, uh, facilitate their movement. Um. Uh. Today, uh. we'regorma talk with Mary who has a particular challenge in dealing With procrastination.She's gonna, uh, share, uh, what her experience is. And I'm gonna ask questions and tryto draw out what it's like for her. Uh,but also I'm gonna try to identify some of thestrengths that she has. Urn. Typically directives is used near the end of the helpinginterview and so you'll--we'll arrtveat that point. Urn. So.

TITLE:Note that Billy uses the word"challenge" rather than "problem."Many feel that challenge, concern. orissue are more useful words than problem.

Billy:

Mary:

Billy:

Hi, Mary, how're you doing?

Hi, Billy. I'm fine.

You came, uh, to discuss a couple of things with me today?

Mary: Yes, urn, I was gonna talk. to you a little bit about how anxious I get wheneverI have to speak in front of a group, and, you mow, just how very nervous-vnerve-wracking it is and how diff--anxiety producing and stressful it is.

Bllly: Hmm Can you gtve me uh. a little example of what happens for you?

SUBTITLE:Open question:Concreteness

Mary: Well--well, I have to speak in front of my, urn, school. And, urn. I just get verynervous. I mean, urn, my hands get all wet and sweaty and my stomach churns, and 1--1worry about It for days ahead of time. Sometimes I don't even sleep that well.

Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And then finally I get around to doing something about it and preparing alittle bit beforehand. but I--! never feel really comfortable doing It. It's always verydifficult and very stressful.

Billy: Mmrn. Is there urn Man'. Is there any uh occ--occaSIODwhen you have tomake a presentation when you don·t feel anxious and worried?

SUBTITLE: Search for positive assets

Mary: Well, sometimes if I really get organized and have overheads ready and I'mgoing to do a talk or something, and-sand I think through what I'm gonna say and I getthose overheads ready. and! practice a bit, then I feel a little bit better. But that's sortarare! (small laugh)

Billy: Uh-huh. so it's preparation that really helps.

1

Mary: Yeah. Yeah.

Billy: Mmm--OK--what Is It that keeps you from being prepared?

Mary: I don't know! I--you know. I. urn--I guess Ijust sort of put it off. I keepth.Ink1ng'Well, it's. you know, that's a-vthat's a ways. I can--I can-you know, I'll do ittomorrow."

Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And I ldnda put it offand-sand then I just kinda put it in the back of mymind and say, well, you know, I'll get at It a Uttle bit later.

Billy: Mmm-hmm. Mmm.

Mary: And then I've sort of been anxious about it and I think. "ugh." I don't want todeal with it exactly. You know, I don't think it's gonna be very good or I worry abouthow--what it's gonna sound like and so I just don't do anything about it. I just keepworrying about it.

Billy:

Mary:

Hmm. And then you just keep putting it offand putting it off.

Right.

Billy: 1--1see. Well, MaD', 1--1wonder 1f urn. there might be a couple of th!.n@you'dlike to by. That might help you. Would--would you be willing?

SUBTI1LE: Involve client as participant

TIfLE: Having heard the story, Billy nowdemonstrates alternative directives

TIfLE: Dtrectrve Example 1: Advice Drawn fromPositive Resource Support Network

Billy: Okay. Allright. Let me ask you, is there someone in your life, in yourfamily, or your circle of friends who you really admire. especially around this issue ofputting things off?

Mary: Well. Billy. I think about my grandmother. Her name is Amanda Jensen.And. uh. she lived on a farm. tile family farm. And, uh, she was a fanner's wife and didall those things that a fanner's wife did and, uh, she was so, you know, on time and. youknow, she had to co things on time 'cause it's the farm and thmgs have to get done!

Billy: Urn. well--

Like. you know. the chores have to get done and things like that.

Like, give IDe--giveme some examples,

Mary:

BllIy:

SUBTITLE:Concreteness

Mary: Well, I·-J think of her. urn, you know, on the farm. And I think ofthe--tbe--the alarm going off. Actually sometimes the alarm didn't go off:you could hear the cowsmooing and that meant. you know, it was time to get up and sunrise and get up with the--get up with the cows! (small laugh) Literally! And she's out in the bam milking cows,and I see her in the separator house there with all those big buckets of milk and. you

2

know. pouring them In and separating the milk and the cream. and then carrying themdown. uh, to the cooling house whlch then goes to the. uh, dairy.

Billy:

Mary:

Billy:

So she did all of those things every day.

Every day. Every single day. Seven days a week.

Mmm-hmm.

Mary: Then she'd go home and cook for the thrashers or cook for the farmers and--and tend the garden. And she did it every day. Without complaining, she just=that washer life.

Billy: What do you--what--what do you think helped her to keep doing that?

Mary: Well. I think that she wanted to, you know. she knew she had to feed thefamily and she had to=thts was part of her lifel That she just. uh, did. She tookresponsibility. She's a very responsible person. And, urn, and did it because she knewshe had to do it! No one else was gonna do it! (small laugh)

Billy: Mmm-mmm-hmm. In--in your life. urn, are you responsible in the way thatshe Is? She was?

Mary: Well, you know, in terms of this problem. 1--1 think, you know. I put off alittle bit. 1--1 procrastinate and 1--1 wish 1 could be more-you know, attacking thingsand doing things. you know. on time and were on top of things like she was.

Bmy: Mmm-hmro Mmm-hmro I wonder If maybe if you Viewed yourre8J!onslbillties in the same way that you View her chores as lust thines that have to beslone every slay. If that would make a sl1fTerence.

Directives as advising the client

Mary: You know. I--(small laughl-dt's funny. When I thought about that. Youknow? Because maybe if I thought of it as 'Just chores you have to do," 'This issomething you have to do," rather than put it off and wait and just plain do itlSomething that has to be done and not worry about it. get anxious. Just simply get itdone with and do It. And not go through all this other emotional trauma about it.

Bllly: Right. I think maybe, uh, some of the other feelings come=are connected tothe fact that other people=you're worried that other people may judge you.

Mary: Right, tbink·-think it was--yeah. Probably so. Yeah.

Billy: And so if it's justo-if they're a series of chores and things that have to getdone. they're things that you just do.

Mary: You just do it.

Bmy: Uh-huh.

Mary: Yeah. it'll be fine.

Bllly: Yeah.

Mary: Yeah.

Bllly: Well. maybe--maybe. let's try. Okay?

3

Mary:

BllIy:

Mary:

Mmm-hmm.

Um, uh, oh, for the next presentation you have to make.

Okay.

BlUy: Let's do a little test and just try to just simply do it. Do it lmIDediately. Youknow, as something-vone other thing that you have to do. And not wony so much aboutwho's going to be-you're going to be presenting to. whether they're gonna like it or notand whether it's a reflection of you personally or professionally and just do it. Do youthink that's possible?

Mary: Yeah! Maybe I could just think of my grandma. Just the way she lust Was outthere dom' it every sine-Ie day with a e-ood attitude and maybe Icould just think (smalllaugh) of her all the time!

SUBTI1LE: Drawing 'on positive models often helpful

Billy: RIght.

That mlght give me some real extra strength to-vto do=to do this.Mary:

Billy: Good. Good. And also think. urn.' that there's not only this one thing butthere are a series of things that are gonna have to-ycu have to do today and alsotomorrow and the next day. So you'd better just (claps hands) go ahead and get it done.

Mary: Right.

TInE: Directive Example 2: Relaxation using positive imageryand breathing instruction

B!lIy: Okay. Let's try it. You know, let's think about another-vanother, um--oh,another way to go about it.

Mary: Okay.

Billy: Uh. And that is, when you get, uh, uh, concerned or anxious. what--what--what-what kinda feelings do you have?

Mary: Well. Ihave sort of. you know, my hands get a little sweaty. My stomachstarts churnmg. Urn. I don't sleep at night. I have to kind of wake up and think about itin the middle of the night. Urn. That --those kinds of things going on.

Btlly: Would yoy like to try maybe. urn a little relaxation technique? To help youwtth some of that?

SUBTITLE: Involving the client

Mary: Mmrn-hrnm!

Billy: I'd llke to suggest that you--you do. You know, urn. can you think of a placewhere you really just=really love. There are no pro-doesn't feel llke there are anypressures or any worries, you know, and you really feel just restful. Can you think--?

Mary: That's easy. That's our place on Lake Sunapee. It's a beautiful place andlovely just to look at the lake down by the water.

4

Bllly: Can you des--can you describe a little more, maybe a moment or a day or anafternoon or a couple of hours when It was (whlspers) just wonderful!

Mary: WeD,I Uke to be down by the beach there. and just looking out when it's sortof the quiet part of the day and maybe the motorboats are gone. and just to look at prettysailboats and see the, uh, mountains in the background and the--

Billy: Mary, close your eyes for a second e . And just imagine yourself there. Can youdo that?

Mary: Yup! (small laugh)

Billy: Okay. now, I want you to take a couple of deep breaths, with your mouthclosed. Just very deep and exhale very slowly. (payse) Can yoy ytsual!ze that beautifullaW

Mary:

Blily:

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

BUly:

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

SUBTITLE: Visual Imagery

Yes. Beautiful.

Mmm-hmm. Can you feel the sun beating down on you?

SUBTITLE: ·K1nesthetlc imagery

Mmm-hmm.

It's very warm.

Mmm-hmm.

And can you feel your body relaxing?

Mmm-hmm.

Now think about that presentation you have to make.

Mmm-hmm.

All of a sudden your breathing changed. didn't It?

Mmm-hmm!

Billy: Uh-huh? Can you just now think back about that quiet space? (pause) Okay.Mary. Let me ask you. You can open your eyes now. Let me ask you to try this.

Mary: Okay.

Billy: When you feel worried or concerned about a presentation, maybe the firstthing you can do, as soon as you detect It--

Mary: Mmm-hmm. Mmrn-hmrn.

B!lly: l'd like you to try breathing very deeply. Sitting down in a quiet corner. Justrelaxing and then taking some deep breaths.

Mary: Mrnm-h rnrn.

5

Bllly: And then vlsual1z1ng yourself on that special lake at that special time ofyear when It's really just heavenly.

Mary:

B!lly:

Mary:

Billy:

Mmmm. Summertime I (small laugh)

Yeah. And see if that can help--

Okay.

--you know, urn. move you out of that anxiety.

Mary: Right. So when I have this tendency to start worrying, then I just startthinking about the lake and the--

Billy:

Mary:

Exactly.

=calmness of the lake and the mountains--

Btlly: Exactly. And then when you feel relaxed and--and·-well. a little more atease, then go ahead and actually begin your--your work.

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

Mary:

Then begin working after I'm more relaxed.

Right. Okay!

Good! Thanks, Billy!

All right. You're welcome.

(sigh)

TITLE: Directive Example 3: Looking at personal history and using paradox:help clients notice what occurs spec1flcally for them as it Is related to thepast.

I feel so relaxed!

Billy: Okay. I--I'm--I thought maybe ifwe explored a couple of ather avenues toassist you with thJs--

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

Okay.

·-warry and anxiety that you have, It might be useful,

Okay.

Billy: Urn. You know, I wonder if there was a time In your, urn. life when someonemade some expectations of you and it sort of created worry and anxiety and tension,Can you remember back to a time when something like that happened?

Mary: Yeah. I remember taking, uh, plano lessons at age eight. And. urn. mymother, you know. minored in music and she was quite a good piano player. and shewanted her daughters to play the piano. And not only did we have to play the plana. butwe had to enter contests, piano contests. We had to learn a piece. memorize a piece.enter a contest. And I would be so nelVOUSand upset and warned. ] was just--sometJrnesI'd be hysterical before I'd have to go, uh, to perform. uh, in front of a Judge.

B!Ily: Mmm-hmm.

6

Mary: Playing the plano. Really scary.

Billy: When do you think that worry or anxiety began? 1mean, the time before theconcert or the=tne->?

Mary: Oh, I was worrted from the minute I knew--I was klnda starting to getnervous the minute 1--1was practicing "the piece" that I would have to perform.

Billy: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And then the closer It got. the more and more I got anxious. You know, that rwould have to be in front of an audience. and the Judge sitting there giving a grade. Andthen I'd be warned that I would forget my piece.

Billy: Mnun. So you were really--the worry was connected to the. uh, wor--betngconcerned about pleasing others.

Mary: Yeah. performance anxiety. I think Iwas warned about how Iwas gonnaperform and what mother would think, the family.

Billy:

Mary:

Billy:

So you really wanted to make sure your mom was happy.

Yeah.

Uh-huh,

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: Iwonder I{there's a connection between that experience and the expertenceyou had With plannme. uh. prepari~ for presentations.

SUBTITLE: Supportive confrontation

Mary: It could be. As-vas I said that word "performance anxiety," I think in someways. you know. If you're speaking in front of your school or If you're speaking in frontof a class or somebady--somethtng like that--you're--you're performing in a way.

BUly: Well, it Is performtngl Yes.

Mary: And you're standing up and speaking and It's sort ofthe Same thing like(small laugh) plav1~ the plano when you're eight years old!

SUBTITLE: The past Impacts the present

Billy: That's right.

Mary: Maybe there's not exactly a judge in the audience gMng you a grade, but in asense, you know. people are sort of making some evaluations about how you're doing.So it's a little bit like that!

Billy: Sure. Sure. Sa this business of--ofbeing a--a performer and being judged Iswhat sort of conjures up those--those worries.

Mary: Yes. And all those anxieties and tension and nervousness and sweaty palms.

Btlly: Yeah. Okay. Let me--Iet's try another thing. I wonder if, urn, usually--what'sthe time that usually--the time frame before the presentation--that you finally do It.You finally say. "Okay. enough of this worry and anxiety and-».' you know. When doyou actually say. "Now I'm gonna actually do It." ?

7

Mary: It's usually a couple of days before, 1mean, two or three days before I 1lnally--maybe two days before, actually. 'cause I finally say. "OmIgod, I'm gonna do it. This is It.I'd better--I mean, I've gotta do something." I'm gonna have to do this. So then I pull thethings out.

Billy:

Mary:

Bmy:

Mary:

Okay. Iwonder if you would be willing to try something really risky.

Well, okay! (small laugh) We'll seel We'll see! (laugh)

Depends on what it is.

On what it Isl How rtsky Is it? (laugh)

.Billy: All right. The next Urne you're askednyou have tornake a presentation. 1would l11re you to postpone preparinj! for it until the day before it's due Not two daysbefore not three days But the day before, The n12ht before It's due, In fact.

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

Btlly:~M.ary;

SUBTITLE: Paradoxical directive

Wow. Mmm-hmm,

All right. Do you think you can do that?

Well. I'll definitely get anxious about this onel Okay. I'll try.

All OWL And what I'd like you to do also is to monitor yourself throuiW that

Mrnm- hmm......Y!m..

Billy: And al--l0 Identify just how you feel, You mlehl eet a lJttle pad and Just JotdOwn--doesn't have to be anything fancy. but Just notes to yourself Of how you'rereeline about thiMS. what your worries are, what your concerns are.

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

SUBTITl.E: Encourages Mary to observe her behaviormore closely.

So do a little diary about how--what's happening to me?

Just a little bltty--lIttle diary.

Okay, about how're you feellng? And how I'm feeling, and what's going on?

Exactly.

My feelings. Okay.

Billy: And the reason Iwant you to do that Is so you get a full appreciation of thefull tntenslty of the worry. Because sometimes the worry Is bigger In our minds than Itreally is. You know, we make it much larger. Sa it's goad to be able to sort of get in touchWith it. And understand how. urn. dangerous. iCyou will, or how overpowering, It really,really Is.

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

BlIIy:

Mary:

Okay.

And you might discover that it's not as looming as we think it is.

Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm,

So will you try that?

Yes. I will. Billy.

Okay. All right. Then let's get together and--and talk some more.

Great. Thanks so much for your help.

Tape 6: Feedback/Self-Disclosure

TITLE: Feedback/Self-DisclosureMary lvey with William L. H. Roberts

Mary: Iwould like to share something from our Basic Influencing book. ~ourselves as others see us. to hear ourselves as others hear us. to be touched as we touchgthers These are the goals gf efIecttye feedback

I will demonstrate two skills In this tape. They both Involve sharing yourself with aclient. Feedback helps the client discover how others see them and self-disclosure Issharing your own experience carefully. In using both these skllls, be sure to be brief andcheck out with your client how the skill Is recelved. (pause)

TITLE: Maintaining balance In a complex world.

Mary:

Billy:

Hi, Billy, how are you?

I'm fine. How're you doing, Mary?

Mary: Good. Good. Nice to see you. You know, you said you'd had some concernsyou'd like to share with me today?

Billy: Yeah, I'm--I--I wanted to talk a little bit about, urn, some challenges I'mhaving with work. It's really not work. per se, but it's just some things around the work.Urn. Sort of a lot that I'm dealing With.

Mary: Yeah. You know. Billy, before we begin to dlscuss all that, maybe we shouldtalk about It--what it'slike for you to come here, talking to me, a white EuropeanAmerican and Swedish American and-sand, uh, the cultural differences. Is thereanything that. urn. I should be aware of to make this a better session?

Billy: Urn. well, I appreciate your mentioning It. Urn. I guess even your saying thatmakes me, uh, feel better because at least you're conscious of It. You know?

Mary: I surely am. And Iwant you to be sure to let me know 1f--IfI'm on track allthe way. And If I'm not, we should stop and feel free to say something to me. because Iwant to learn. too. Iwant to learn about-sand Iwanna be helpful to you In whatever wayIcan. And that's a very important issue to me. and Ijust want to-just want you to let meknow. urn. when we need to move or be In a different track.

Billy: Well, good. Good.

1ITLE: Stop tape. How do you react to the dlsclosure ofthls issue?

Mary: Okay. well, let's go on. Maybe you can tell me lust a little bIt more about the,uh. concern that you have More of an e.:campleof what's going on.

SUBTITLE: Concreteness-seeking specific example

Billy: Well, uh, (small sigh) the challenge that I'm having Is that I. uh, have just. uh,recently taking--taken on a new posltion--

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --uh. It's a very responslble role. Uh. But It requlres me to corrunute to theplace of business. It's an hour and a half each way. Uh. And of course) have all the

1

bells and whistles, you know. I have the car phone and the pager and the dtctaphone andall these things. you know. Tapes on book and all that klnda business. you know. to=tosort of ease the--ease it. But It just feels like an awful lot. Especially, urn. I flnd In theevenlng--because I tend to get involved With what I'm domg=and, um, five o'clock, 1t'sfive thirty. six:o'clock. seven o'clock rolls around and I'm still Involved. And It's anhour and a half homel So If I'm finished at seven o'clock. where I'm accustomed to onlybeing fifteen minutes or twenty minutes or a half hour from horne--whlch Is not bad--

~. Mmrn-hrnrn,

BmY' nan hour and a haJfmeans I don't get horne until elght-th!r1y nine o'clock.and sometimes later

Mary: Mmm-hmm Mmm-hmm,

TI1LE: Note encourages often enough to keep verbalclient talking.

Bmy: And It's really, uh. It's really beginning to wear on me.

, such aII this working --you re d. You're starting to feel the fatigua fff.l' ttatYou have thIs responsibJe lob an .Mary. d It's, uh. really won e uresponsible person anuh new posItion.

SUBTITLE:Feedback on posittve assets and strengths

But the--the Idea then of. after doing all thls working. extending yourself as much asyou can. then you still have to get In your car and drive an hour and a half. And thatfeels a bit much. '

Billy: It Is-vtt Is, uh, It's a lot.

Mary: It's a lot. Yeah.

Billy: I also, you know, had the experience that. uh, In the organization that I'm in.uh, and I'm fairly high-placed. you know. highly-placed In the organization->

Mary: Mrnm-hmm.

Billy: --uh. uh, that. uh, I want to somehow be. uh, a model for others in terms ofthe Idnd of. uh, of the level or the intensity of the work. Urn. And. uh, I find that therehave been a couple of times when I've felt fatigued that I declded I'd leave right at flveo'clock.

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: And on--the whole way home. I thought. "Gee. I really--maybe that's not sucha good idea."

Mary: Mmrn-hmrn. And so you feel sort of tom between staytng there and wantingto be With the family and-sand. uh. I certainly can Identify With that. too, Billy. ~ago I had a lob where I had to commute and--and uh--through heavy traffic (t was onlyan hour, But that·-that deslre to be home with the family and not to work so bard andyet the desire to be--to do ~Qodon the lob that'sntbat's uh pulls you In both ways untilyou almost feel tom.

SUBTITLE:Self-disclosure andsupportive confrontation of major conflict

2

Billy: Mmm. Yeah, there ts=there Is a real conflict, you know, in terms ofwantlngto be responsible--

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --or in terms oC,urn, uh, my professional responsibilities. The desire toachieve. the very high desire to achieve. And also the real. urn, desire to, urn. make surethat I'm CulflllJng my responsibilities at home and be--real.ly being there and beingpresent.

Mary:

Bllly:

Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

And, uh, it doesn't--It's not worklngl The way I want It to work.

TITLE: Portions of session deleted:The session continues

Mary: Uh. Billy. what else Is going on in your life as we're talking about thesedifferent thingS? Do you want to share anything else with me?

Bmy:

Mary:

Well. I, uh, actually have recently made a lot of changes.

Mmm-hmni.

Bmy: Urn. and, ch; one of the changes I've made. uh, Is, uh, has to do with theamount of time that Ihave committed to traveling, urn, in service to my religiouscommunity.

Mary:

Btlly:

Mary:

BUly:

Mary:

B1l1y:

Mary:

Mmm-hmm.

Uh. where I Virtually almost every weekend, I was traveling someplace.

Mmm-hmm.

And after a- -a--a long period of tJme--ten years--

Mmm-hmm.

--oC doing that particular work. uh, which was wonderful work--

Ub-huh.

Billy: --I decided that I would adjust that, so that I would be able to be moreavailable to my children--

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --on a weekend. as they're getting into--to an age where they really sort ofneed me. So I want to be more involved with family llfe and closer to those things.We're a very close famlly; we do a lot of things together. So It's--there's not-at's not thatthere are problems or difilculties. It's Just I really felt that, uh, there was more. uh, needfor me. my presence--physlcal presence.

Mary: So you ielt the family needing you at this point and--and--

Bmy: Yeah. And It's notonly the family needing me. but I needed--I needed to bethere for me as well,

3

Mary' Y.euyour carom needed to be thAnd so thatU --church cornmun7re

, You }mow u hflmIllx. might 11<• ph"" Ill'ii and now •. ,. m IllIS WJmdorM ..",maybe a pbase wh' D£th to be withere it snow tlm e to mem; ontpvoul

IDllY; Mmm-bmm.

Mm:,' And community And--and morena closer uh community.

Billy:

Mary:

SUBTITI.E: Confrontation building onpositive strength

Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

But. urn--

Billy: Well. It's. yeah, It's, you know, I really--my, urn, reugtous convictions arevery strong.

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: Uh, and they really sustain me. And I tb1nk--1 think they really help me to--to. uh--to, uh--to do as much as Ido. Uh, and one of the things that they--that--my--theteachings. um, have-shave led me to, urn. to, uh, realize and acknowledge Is how--howcritical and how Important it Is to really make--ensure--that the family unit is really,really tight. And so al--an the external things that I do, uh, while they're verywonderful. I'd better make sure that I invest a lot in that family unit.

Mary: Mmm-hmm. And that famlly Is really, really Important to you and-·

Very Important to me.BUly:

Mary: --and that's the strength and the resource that you draw on. along with yourreligion.

Billy:

Mary:

Yeah.

Both of them. And they both. uh, come together.

Billy: Yeah. Yeah. You know. I--as I'm thlnldng about it. Mary. you know. you--uh.you mentioning that helps me to perhaps understand a little bit why, uh--more aboutwhy the commute is so frustrating. 'Cause It feels like three hours a day times five daysa week is fifteen hours a week. You know, Cor a lot of people. that's a part-time Job!

TTILE: Stop Tape: The field has tended to Ignore spiritual Issue, but Is nowopening itself to possibilities How do you feel about this topic?

TTILE: The session continues with Maryself-disclosing. How do you react?

Mary: Qkay I just guess I'd like to share with YOU that--that ub my relWon andmy--my spiritual ,ourney Is very 1mportant to me also. And I brln2 that back tp myfamUy and--and ub I see the two sort of Intertwine I'm just WQndertn2 family andsPlr1tuallty fit t02ether--and I'm Just wQndertn2 how that fits with you and what vauthink about It.

SUBTITLE: Self-disclosure with check-out returning focus to client.

4

Billy: Yeah. 1--1. uh, I really appreciate knowing that you--you share those kinds ofconcerns and Interests.

Mary: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm.

Billy: And it makes me feell1ke. urn. uh, I'm not alone with that. you know? Urn.That. In fact. really this splrttual Journey. urn. if it's fully mcorporated-vinternalized,you know--in one's--one's life--

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Billy: --1t's not a--sort of separate entities. you know? There's family and thenthere's work and then there's. you know. rellgious beliefs. Uh. But that they're allintegrated. And It really makes. uh, one's 11femore fulfilled. more wholesome. And.you+you know. the path is clearer, So it makes=you know. it occurs to me it makes--that=this is why I question or I'm having the conflict about the travel or about the--youknow. these dJiIerent--

Mary:

Billy:

Mmm-hmm.

--kinds of things. because I'm struggling for this kind of--

Mary:

BUly:

Mmm-hmm.

--to make this--this. uh, whole integrated process.

Mary: Maybe you lust need to--to eUm1nate the commute to move closer [)au~h)aDd to. uh. have the family and the splrttual thlne;s closer togethex1

SUBTITLE: Advice as self-disclosure

Title: Debriefing: Multicultural Issues

Allen: I've JOined Mary and Billy because there's a lot of things that happen In thisshort tape. The feedback skill and the self-dJsclosure sk111have been demonstrated, butthere's been some issues for multicultural counseling and spirituality which aren'tusually explored. I think it's best to debrief them. You may notice that. uh, Mary startedfairly early on with the sharing the idea that here she is. a White woman--even a blond--with an African-American. And. uh, Iwas wondering what Billy's thoughts were aboutthat (seli-dtsclosurel. And. I notice it wasn't followed up on. And what--what--whatyour reactions were to it?

Billy: Well. I appreciated her, one. acknowledging it in. uh, uh, a non-urn-explosiveldnda way. She didn't make a big to-do about it.

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

BUly: Urn. And. urn. an Invited me to sort of. uh, if you will--correct or adjustsomething that she said-»

Mary:

B!1ly:

Mary:

Right.

--If It felt. urn. Inappropriate.

Mmm-hmm.

5

Bllly: But It never came up. And I think part of why It never came up was becauseshe did acknowledge It and the option was there.

Allen: And if It would have come up. then. at least provide the opening for thedialogue ..... ,

Mary:

Allen:

Yeah.

How did you feel bringing it up. Mary?

Mary: It Ielt-vit felt okay. because I think. ifyou don't bring it up. It's an--lt's antssue-vit's something that I might have on my mind and wondertng how he's reacting tome and wondering If I might be saying something wrong so I guess 1--1--1 rather feelbetter bringing it up In the beginning rather than to have it not talked about (smalllaugh).

Allen: Mmm. Now. a second issue that came up Is the Issue of spirituality ..Uh. TheAmer1can Counseling Association has developed a set of spiritual competencies andthey say that we really need to be aware of this strength and the Issue of splrttuality Incounseling. At the same time, you don't want to take over and move too far with that. InOUT discussion after this tape. there's an interesting discussion about church. uh, or=orthe=or the way you use the word church. BIble. Torah. or whether you talk about. uh,symbolism or perhaps the more generic issue of splrltuallty. And. Billy. I thought youhad some real Interesting thoughts about that as we talked.

Billy: You know. 1--1 think tt's real important. uh, especially In the helpingprocess. that we use generic. uh, generic expressions. And the reason for that Is. thatpeople who we are working with. urn, may have any unique combination of. uh,orientations or expressions or religious traditions. And so if--In my experience. I. youknow. if I'm not a Christian and Iuse Christian. uh--and you use Christian symbolism-

Mary:

Billy:

Mary:

Right.

«uh, then that can distance me. you knoW.

Okay.

Billy: You know, um, but there Is a commonness around belief m a--a supremebetng-vyou know-- "

Billy: So that, urn. you know. uh, my--my concern was that lfyou use expressionsthat are an indication of one's particular belief system or another. then that candistance people.

Mary: Mmm-hmm.

Bllly: But that if you use more generic expressions. someone who Is an atheist orsomeone's who's an .. an-van agnostic or someone who Is a believer in any specific beliefsystem. urn. worldwide. can relate to the theme of splrltual1ty and can relate to thatjourney. and one's. urn. belief in a higher power. etc. Uh. So that. uh, you know. thereIsn't a notion that one is better than the other.

Mary: Right.

Allen: There's also even the word "religion" that. uh, for some people. is a--is--is atroubling word. So generally speaking. "spirituality" may cause some Issues. [ know,

6

when I was working with Japan. you have a--a group which really, the--the Shintotradition is really--they work in a more Earth-centered relationship to the land.

Bmy: That's right.

Allen: And. uh, the--notions of the "supreme being" and so forth becomes very, verydifferent. Uh. So we--worklng With--with people who might be different from us, Ithink It--it's good to follow that line. And use those words ... how did you feel about,uh, those issues, Mary?

Mary: Yes, I understand what you're saying. And I think It is Important to useterms that make everybody feel comfortable. And--and "splrttual1ty" and ''higherbeing" and "beliefs' and terms like this is more--would be more generic than otherterms.

Allen:

Billy:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

So we'll sign off and let's see if either of you want anything to add to this.

Good! 1 liked working with you!

I like working with you, too, Billyl

1loved watching the two of you. Okay.

Thanks. (tape pauses)

TITI.E: END FEEDBACK/SELF-DISCLOSURE

".(

.,.•..

7

Tape 7

TITLE: Interpretation/Reframe :Changing the Meaning of the Story


Allen: The core of the basic listening sequence, influencing sldlls, and the m1croskillstheoretically is: story, strength. re-story. action. And In this next tape we're going todemonstrate changing some of these ideas--not the action tdeas-vta the skill ofinterpretation. Norma Gluckstern will work with Kathryn alone on listening to herstory, finding some strengths. and then moving to the issue of re-storying. We're notgoing to worry about action at this point. The idea is to find new ways to look at thestory. And the skill of interpretation is perhaps the most important of all In re-storying.

nTLE: "Commg Home"

Norma: Kathryn. the last time we were here you mentioned some of the problemsyou've had since you've moved back home. And what I wondered is if you wanted tocontinue that conversation. If there are some issues you'd like to talk about.

Kathryn: 1--1think I do. Urn, I'd been away at school and-sand then working. um.jnanother part of the country for awhile. and I'd moved back closer to my folks. Urn. Youknow. couple-swtthtn a couple of hOUTS. And. uh, 1was-urn. anticipatlng kind of--uh--you know. mteractmg With them as--as a--as an adult. I mean. I was an adult. 1was inmy, you know, my late twenties and I was looking forward to, you know. going to dinnerwith them or, you know, Just kind of hanging out with them and interacttng with them.And. urn, Ijust--I have to say I was sort of, urn. shocked, urn. by the sort of the reactionor the welcome. urn. that I received.

Norma: What do you mean by that? Shocked by the welcome you received?

SUBTITLE: Open question, encourage

Kathryn: Well. my dad and 1 used to work in the garden a lot and just, you know, in theyard and do different things. And, urn. 1wanted to--t said, 'Well, let's go work in theyard." He was so fond of-sand I used to admire him and his knowledge of, you know, theyard and the grass and the trees. And ask him a lot of questions. So I said, you know,"Let's--let's do that!" And we did one day. And I. urn. and it--lt--um--! just wanted to=tosort of be Uke old times. but just sort of work With him and-sand maybe show him myknowledge and what I had learned. And-sand instead it became a lesson! Urn. He-vhejust said. "No. you're not doing it right." And-sand maybe before when I was. you know,sixteen or fifteen. I'd be like. "Okay, how do I do It?' Now I'm like, 'Wait a minute! Thisis not a lesson. This is just us getting together. hanging out." And 1--1just didn't knowhow to react to that.

Norma: Ah. what I hear you saving is that you're a little frustrated and angry aboutwhat's going on with you and your father right now. and the way he's treat~ you.


Kathryn: Yeah! 1--1Just, um=I feel that--I mean. In=lnstead of just hanging out andplaying together, be treats everything if--as if--as if I was sixteen! Or fifteen! And I'm--he almost like gets up this inner child in me and--

Norma: Oh, okay.

1

Kathryn: --you know. and when he--when he--when he--when he says--snaps andsays, "I'm the teacher. It's a lesson now. Let's learn." I'm like. hello! l've--l've been--l'mnot--I'm not gonna just become your pupil a=agam, Or I'm not gonnajust become yourpupil and come to your attention I--you need to interact with me.

Norma: What r hear you saytna a little bU is I think you said he's treat1ng you in adifferent time frame than you're at And that that's not where you are. You're an adultYou're not a little girl anymOre. And the other thing Ihear is you saying that vau'reacting sometimes like a little girl. And that that's frustrating you, too, So that you're--it's--tt's a double bind you're In He's actlng--he's treatlng you like a child and you'reresponding like a child.

SUBTITLE: Summaryof Story

Kathryn: Yeah. That--that's--that's right on the mark. I am responding like a chJld.And I don't want to respond llke a child.

Norma: I--I'm going to ask you to do somethi~ that may seem ven difficult foryou.And--and--but could you re-intemret or reframe that story? Rewrite the storv in a morepositlye waY? Can you find anything positive that'S going on between you and yourfaUw:.

SUBTITLE: Positive Asset Search

Kathryn: Well, I think. urn, I think what's positive about It is I'm--I've--I have movedback home. I've decided too-that Iwant to--l want to get to know my parents again. ThatI'm an adult. That --that he is taking the time to sort of Interact wtth me and. urn, youknow, and-sand then just be (short pause) an adult, uh, with me.

Norma: I see vau're kinda hesitant That you're not totally convinced of what you're~

S~: Feedback

Kathryn: Well. 1--1.• 1 want to--Iwant to, urn ..

Norma: Take a look. 'Cause this is really a hard task. I mean, you have a lot of sortof negative feelings about this, And for me to ask you to give it a--as they say--as theysay in politics--

Kathryn: A positive spin.

Norma: --a positive spin. But=but think about It. Maybe think in terms of how hemight be th1nk1ng about you and .. and what's gOing on in his mind. As he's treating youthis way.

Kathryn: I don't think he knows. 1--1·-1 think he's-I think it's been a long time forhim. You know, It's been ten years.

Norma: Okay.

Kathryn: And I think, while adults don't change that much--I mean. once you sort of gothrough puberty and become an adult and you're married, you're sort of settled in yourways. And I think for me, there's been a lot of change--

Norma: Okay.

2

Kathryn: --since 1was sixteen. And 1--1 don't think--since he wasn't a part of that. notbecause he wasn't Involved but. you know, you're--you're away at school or you'reworkl:ng and you--you call your parents. You see them maybe once or twice a year. Butyou don't, you know, hang out With them. You're not there every day and you're notdoing homework every night with them In the house. And It's--I think that--I think hewasn't--he didn't know what to expect. Maybe.

Norma: And so In some sense. he's failing back to his past behavior.

Kathryn: May--maybe to what he knows! And he--he's not sure how--how do I saythis? This woman. You know? She's a woman. She's not a little girl anymore. What--you know--what? Do I ask her about her boyfriends? I mean, that just seems weird.Maybe. you know, (srnalllaugh) he's not sure and so he--

Norma: Good.

Kathryn: --you know. we--we talk about. urn. we talk about stuff that--that he's used totalking about. But--but in a way that doesn't make me feel very adult. Doesn't make mefeel Uke I've grown up.

1TTLE: One route toward reframmg is listening to thestory and asking the client to descrtbe or restory thesituation in new ways.

Norma: As you talked about him. where he's coming from. how does that make you(eel? I mean. how mi!ilit you re-frame or rename this story? With what's goine on? Is Itanv dIfferent than when you first started to talk?

SUB1TI1..E:Reframe by questioning

Kathryn: Yeah. I mean. I thlIlk In(Slghl--I'venI've sort of stepped back a little bit andsaId well. you mow. there's a lot to dIgest for him Urn, I think that--that maybe he--maybe lust--maybe he lust needs to. you know. we need to both try a little bit urn. Andhe needs to see where I'm coming from and I need to see where he's coming frOID Andmaybe I lust need to take a step back and say okay And gradually work up tOn and youknow and--an adult conversation. And--

SUBTITLE: Kathryn takes a new perspective on the story

Norma: Essentially what I hear--IfI--lfI can label It for vounts that vouve grown,And maybe he hasn't

SUB1TI1..E:Paraphrase of Kathryn's strength

Kathryn: (sigh ofreUefl Yeahl Well, yeah! I think that is it, maybe. I mean, that he--he hasn't grown. And--and--and that's not--I mean, that's not really positive, but. urn, Imean, he's stayed the same. I--J--I'm sure. And that I've grown and I think he's had--sort of grabbing trying to catch up with my growth!

TITLE: Gathering more data:How does father tell the story?

Norma: Kathryn. I'rn-vtf it's all right With you. I'd like you to sort of focus a little bitdifferently. I'd lfke to hear about your father. Tell me a little bit about him, what he'sltke, where he works. whatever.

Kathryn: He's, urn. he's. I thlIlk, in a pretty powerful position. Urn. He's head of anorgaruzauon, urn, a company. A small company, but. you know--

3

Norma: Mmm-hmm.

Kathryn: --big company. And he's In. you know, in his late fifties. Probably pretty(laugh) settled In hts ways! Uhurn. Certainly, urn--

Norma: You're laughing.

Kathryn: Well. I hope he's (small laugh) not settled tn hts ways! (laughl Um. But Imean, l+that's+you know, I mean, he's been=he's been In the commuruty for awhile.He's ltved here for awhile and people know him. He's, you know, well established. Urn.Both tn his profession and--and, I think. In the community.

Norma: Urn, how do you think he might tell this story of your movtng close to homeagain?

Kathryn: Wow. Urn. 1would--I would think that he would--uh--be a little nervous atfirst. Urn, you know. what's going on, maybe, what's wrong. Why is she moving backhome? Maybe, uh, get excited and yet. "hang on out," does this mean you're mOVingInwtth us again? (small laugh) And, you know, not wanting Gaugh) that to happen. Imean-- And--and maybe, urn, I'm not--you know. 1--1would hope not too negative but Ithink a little hesitant. And 1 think not sure. urn. maybe. sure how to--how to Interactwtth me.

Norma: Ah, so, said=so you think his response to you if--if 1were to actually, or ifyou've actually told me this--is there's something that's caustng him to respond to you

. tn this way?

Kathryn: Mmm, you mean like the way he did tn the garden that day?

Norma: Yeah. If he has those kinds of feelings.

Kathryn: Eh--l guess then it's a pretty natural reaction.

Norma: Oh. Okay.

Kathryn: That--that maybe, urn, maybe I see it--maybe it is natural. that he's-vl haveto--maybe I should ask him questions. "well. how do you feel about this?" or maybe--maybe start asking him not just to be Involved In my life. but maybe someway for me tobe involved in his life.

Nonna: A more sharing relationship.

Kathryn: A more shartng relationship maybe and not so much me me me.

SUBTITLE: New words frame the situation and goals differently

'Cause It--'cause I guess that's how it was when I was younger. I mean. parents are yourparents and they--they--they do everything for you. You know, they feed you, theyclothe you (smalllaughl. they pay for everything! And 1 think he's--he's a little--

Norma: Is he [shocked?) ...

Kathryn: --a little (laugh) afraid maybe that I'm gonna--that's gonna all come back.And I want him to see that, no, I mean, 1--1make my own Iivtng. I'm--

Norma: Ah!

4

Kathryn: --I'm on my own and. but=but maybe I need to see him in a different llghtMaybe I need to see that--

Norma: Maybe you need to help him look at it from another perspective.

Kathryn: Yeah. Maybe that--that's what Ineed to do. Yeah.

Norma: Okay.

Tl.TI...E:RefraIning from Intergenerational Family andCultural Perspectives

Norma: A--another way oflooking at this 15--1sreally sort of from a cultural point ofview, an ethnic point of view. I wonder what your background Is in terms of your own.uh, family or family of origin.

Kathryn: My--I would say I'm eighty percent Swedish, a little bit of English, and littlebit of German.

Norma: Well, since I'm neither of those. maybe--


Norma: --you cculd-help me in--in how would a Swedish family react? Uh, since thatseems to be the strongest part of your background. To having someone come back who'dbeen gone away for years, a number ofyears had been broken away. You know, cut thebond. Has separated the boundaries. How would they react, do you think. coming back?--of coming back into the fold?

Kathryn: I think there's one thing about Swedes, and that is they're very polite. verygracious. um, people. Imean. as my family as--as they would welcome anybody intotheir home. But. like, that I think though that--like--like fish and guests stink afterthree days. I mean, you just (small laugh), you, I mean--the--they had done all thenurturing they could! I mean, they've--they've raised me, they've--you know. I--I'vebecome an adult. They've done the best they can. And I think that--that they're--they--they want to see that continue. Um. I think that while they're happy to see me and theywant to Interact with me that--that they want to make sure that I'm still on my own.That I'm still growing and--and on my own, living. 1--1 think that--

Norma: Does this give you an Insight into what may be going on with your returninghome?

Kathryn: (small laugh) Yeah, it doesl I think about it with (smalliaugh)--I mean,with--with, you know. I mean, that they're--they're extremely gracious and they'vehelped me. you know, move in, but that they really want to make sure that--that--thegrowing process of becomtng adult and moving on your own is a process that continues.Not that you revert back to eating every meal with them and, uh, you know, I think that--eh--you know, that's interesting. now that Ithink about it. They have sort of gonethrough the separation process of me leaving. I have. All, and I think that--that needsto continue.

TITLE: Stop tape. "Corning home- in many Northern Europeanfamilies can be a violation of cultural expectations forseparation.

How might families from different culturesexpertence the same situation?

5

Norma: It's interesting in what you said about, uh, fish and guests after three days.Stink or smell. Because my expertence has been that that Is somewhat typical ofmaybe, uh, of the, uh, more Northern Europeans. And that their expectations is thatyou cut the boundaries. There's a certain point where you leave home. And you mature.And that's it. And you come back to visit. But you don't come back to settle In. Wbich insome ways ts vexy dUTerent from my bacWound which Is more Mediterranean whereif you leave home (small laugh!. people are verv upset. And then when you corne home.they're gracious and they open their arms and almost want to make you a child again.So It's sort of interesting that they're--thev also want to make you a child But It's adifferent kind ofway. And that it's the same kind ofresentment of. ''well hey I'm anadult but I'm coming horne to }tve"--Is-Is somewhat different from uh NorthernEuropean or Southern or Mediterranean Europeans

SUBTITLE: Reframe from cultural perspective

Kathryn: That's interesting. That's really--(smalllaugh)--I never thought about it thatway. Yeah, but I think that's right.

Norma: U--it's not what you've experienced, I think It's what I've experienced. alSQ.

Kathryn' Mmm-hmm

Norma' When I've found myse!fhaving to come closer to home

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm,

Norma: And then fighting off my tradition,

SUBTITLE: Self-disclosure

And you're trying to push your tradition the other way.

SUBTITI..E: Interpretation

Kathryn: Right. I want a little bit of your tradition and not so much of mine (smalllaugh) and=yeah. that's-vthat's. urn, that is interesting. I--I--yeah.

TITLE: Obtainmg behavioral specificshelps us understand and may lead to moreeffective reframing of client stories

Norma: Uh. another way oflooklng at this. that we--X'dlike to try ou t with you, Is .perhaps you could describe to me what was happening when you went out in the gardenwith your father Ilrst.

SUBTITI..E:Concreteness and behavioral specifics

Kathryn: I think that we were--I thought we were lust having kind of a good time, Uh.sharing something that we liked to do together. And I think for him it was kind of areverting back to when Iwas sixteen. Ithink. for him. And he thought he was going tobe teaching me something

SUBTITLE: Formal operational, abstract response

Norma: So he--what was his behavior then?

Kathryn: He was. I mean I thlnk--I don't know jf I was--plannlng something Iremember, And--and--and he was like. ''No, no DO not like this' Let me teach you

6

this!" And I was like. "humph!"

I£AA9ns are !Ned (small laugh) I don't want to be taul:ht today Orwhatever And 1--1mean--but 1dldo't say that l--I--I--aod I kick myself for oat saying that 1--1--1I:otreally upset It was like "Wh--wh--what do you meao I'm dolM It wrong? Why are youcr!tIC1z~ me? Why are youuwhy are you Jump~ all oyer my case?" And I mean Ijust--I got reallY angry that he Just blew up. I mean. 'cause I felt ltke he was blowing upat me for something so petty.

SUBTITLE: Behavioral specifics of relatlonshtp

Norma: So his behaylo[ was to treat you like teacblni! aod that who-and thecoosequences of that. it seems to me what you're saying. is that you I:ot Wry. Irrltated.You were disapPointed. You lust had a lot of reo-you reacted immaturely

SUBTITLE: SUIl1IIl3I1'and reflection of feeling

Kathryn: (laugh)

Norma: In fact_ what did you say to him?

SUBTITLE: Search for more specifics

Kathryn: Oh, I Just--! don't know. I went off and I said, 'You know, you have no right todo this. I am--thls Is not a lesson. You can't just be a teacher and I be a pupil. Youknow? I'm an adultl Treat me like one!" And I mean, 1was (small Iaughl=yeah. it'sfunny, 'Cause I was Uke screaming at him and, like, you know. getting all upset andangry and frustrated and--I don't know if I sort of cried then or what, but--I was like,"Oh, God!" (small laugh) So am I reacting here?

Norma: So if I asked you. was It rational behavior?

Kathryn: (laugh) I think notl I think about 1t. No. 1--1mean It really wasn't.

Norma: And as you think about It, what's your feelings about It?

Kathryn: Well, my feelings are that (small pause)--I wanted him to treat me a certainway, but he wasn't used to treating me that way. I mean. I wanted him to treat me like anadult. like he would if it was Just. you mow. doing this with a friend of his. a buddy or.you know, someone else, my mother. And he, urn. instead he. you know, it was llke Iwas a child again.

Norma: I asked vou a question about your feelin~s. and you're tellio~ me about yourbehayiors So what were you feellna


Kathryn: I was upset.

Norma: Okay.

Kathryn: I was, urn, I was frustrated. 1--1would-vl would put anger 00 It,

Norma: So how would you change that scenario? If I went back and said you're outthere gardening with your father. And he began to tell you what to do. How would youchange the scenario?

Kathryn: I thJnk I would sort of maybe take a deep breath. I am now.

7

Norma: Mmm-hmm.

Kathryn: Urn. And ask him and say. you know. this is not a lesson to me right now. 1--I just want to kind of work with you in the garden. And. um, and--andJust--and in avery calm voice--and not a very elevated. um, volume. Just say. you know. if we couldjust work together, that would be great. Urn. Just. you know. not--not--don't look at itas a lessoo and--and me doing it right or wrong. But just let's look at It as just two .people planting flowers.

Norma: Now. do you think you could do it?

Kathryn: (laugh) Oh, gosh!

Norma: Maybe what we need to do iso-iso-the next sesslon--talk about when thishappens, how you can do It. It-vtt's a thing called assertive tr--traJning. I think you didsome of that in the past.

Kathryn: Mrnm-hmm.

Norma: And what would it be like to really assert Yj'=~e~--~=ff:relationship between your father and yourse!f--w)iiCh w oodrelatlonshlp--

Kathryn' Mmm-hmm.

Norma' --Into a mature relatlooship oftwo;dUlts You'll always be his daughterBut I think that you can brtng it to another 1;;1Kathryn: Yeah. 1--1think that's where I need to be.

SUBTITLE: MOVingto behavioral action via thenew story or reframe

Norma: All right. so we'll do that next time you come.

Kathryn: Great. All right. Good.

TITLE: End Interpretation/Reframe

8

Tape 8 Vocational Interview

TITLE: Five-Stage Interview:Developing a New Vocational Story

Allen lvey with Mary Bradford lvey

Allen: Vital to the microsktlls framework is the five stage structure of the interview.Willlam Matthews of the University of Massachusetts and I engaged in a conversation someyears ago and discovered the necessary and sufficient conditions of an interview that works.We came up with the five stages which are now foundational to Basic Influencing Skills and theIllicroskllls framework, You can complete a whole mtervtew, well structured. just workingfrom these five stages.

In this particular tape we're going to remake an interview that Mary and I did a few years agofor the book Intentional Interulewfng and Counseling (Brooks/Cole publisher). One of thethings all of us need to be able to do is work on issues of vocation-vocational choice.

And the five stage structure of the Interview Is really basic to all interviewing.

First. I first need to establish a reasonable relationship with Mary.

SUBITILE: Ra~port and structure

The second stage is I need to draw out her concern Qf course as part of that we need to look forthe posltiye asset--fincUng strengths--strengths In her stoP' And then we move to what wouldMary Uke to have happen (as a result of the session)?

S1JB1TI1.,E:Define issue and positive assets

Stage three. Get some specifics and goals "IfYou don't mow where You're going you may endup spmewhere else"

SUBTITLE: Define goals

The fourth stage Is braJnstormlng and coming up with ideas=new ways of looking at things.And it's in this fourth stage that influencing skills are the most lmportant And thisdemonstration of vocational counseling InteMew will have a few influenCing skills as well

SUBTITLE: Generate alternatives

Stage five is £lenerallzation If you don't take horne what's happened in the interview. it's all awaste of tUDe.

SUBTITI...E:Gerier'allzatfon

So vocational counseling is really structured like a problem-solving interview. And you'll seea lot of--define the problem. generate alternatives, and can we act on the alternatives? Or: hearthe client's story. find the strength. develop a new story, then act on the new story. So onto thefive stage structure of the interview. (pause)

TIlLE: Stage 1: Rapport and Structurtng"Hello"

1

Hi, Mary. Nice to see you. How are you today?

Mary: Oh, fine. HI,Allen. Nice to see you. (small laugh)

Allen: I was 100k1n!i'at your me and I said gee. vou've done a lot of InterestlIW t~\%You've been a ohvs ed teacher and I said hey! I noticed you've i!Othonors and awaTd u'yedone a lot of stuff With SW1mrnJng Can you tell me a I1ttlebit about that?

SUBTITLE: Relationship building.Positive Assets

Mary: Oh, yeah, Ijust love swimming. It's one ofmy favorite things. And I've done a lot ofwork wtth water ballet and synchronized swtmmmg in college. I've enjoyed it a lot. I enjoyedteaching girls this, too.

Allen: And apparently you won some prizes at that?

Mmm-hmm. Yeah. It's exciting.

Could you tell me just a little bit about one?

Mary:

Allen:

Mary: Well. it was for our whole group in college, the group of women that worked togetherfor a competition. And it was quite exciting. Because we all worked together very hard and--

Allen: Mmm-hrnm.

Mary: +and put on a really nice show where we won an award!

Allen: I see that the award was great but I also heard You really liked working with yourfriends and doing it. Is that right?

SUBTITLE:Paraphrase With check-out with focus on award and relationship

Mary: Yeah, It was great fun.

TITLE: Stage 2: Gathering information andidenttfytng assets

"What's your concern?"

Allen: Well, I guess you're not here to talk about swimming. Uh. What would you like totalk about today. Mary?

SUB1ITLE: Open question

Mary: Well, Allen, you know I like swtmmmg.

Allen: Mrnm-hrnm.

SUBTITLE:Encourage

Mary: And I--you know I've always lileedmodern dance but I'm a phvs en teacher. and Ireally think that this Is not the Tight place for me to be I don't~~Th1¥~~hockey and the basketball particularly I mean I always love th Joh ~e butthat's not what I have to do all the ttIDe. I have to do these other thiflJiSihit I tn't 'P~I:iienjov. I've been doing it for three or four years now--for four years now. And I --I'm fl tinreally kind of bored With Jt frankly.

2

SUBTl"ILE: Mary's opening story

Bored with it?

StJB1TIT.E: Keyword encourage

Mary: Well. you know. It's the same old thing. over and over again. And--and. you know. IfI'm not real enthusiastic about certain aspects of It. then It's hard to make the girlsenthusiastic. I like parts of It. But lots of the Job. I don't like.

Allen:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mmm-bmm. I sense that you feel a little bit frustrated In where you are rliWt now

SUBTI.TI..E:Reflection of feeling

Yeah,l am.

Yeah.

It's frustrating (frustrated laugh).

What else is going on In your life Mary?


TITlE: What else Is golng on In your life?

We recommend the "what else"question to encourage disclosure ofother possibly lmportant information.

Mary: Well. you know. [have a relationship. uh with a fellow and that's okay too But ['mmostly worried about what I want to do What! want to do with my life and my career,

Allen:

Mary:

TITLE: Mary's second story

Mmm-hmm.

Because it feels like I'm not really In the right field.

Allen: Mmm-hmm. So you are In a relationshipBut what's really hitting you tight for today really Is what's going on In the lob?


Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

M~

Yes.

[s that nght?

SUBTITLE: Check-out

That's right.

wd looking on 1Q some--sornetbln2 else

Riw·

3

tJl!:..n.;

Ma.Ix.;.Urn. So. As we start this. as I do hear that you're In phvs, ed.--

Mmm-hmm

And you kind of like some of the tbln2s In It.alkn.;.

M~ ~I heard some of the actlyitles you like.Alli:.n'

~. Mmm-hmm

Allen: But Ialso heard the sense of boredom. And you sound like somethln2--that afterfour years. you'd like to find something else to do.

Mary:

Allen:

SUBTITLE: Summary

Right. [don't want ..

Is that right?

SUBTITLE: Check-out

Mary: =yeah. I don't want to be doing this when I'm much older. I really don't (ruefullaughter In voice) want to be doing this the rest of my life.

Allen: Mrom-hmm. What have been some or your fantaSies for the--for the future?


Mary: Well. you know the parts that I like about the job. I really like talldng to the girlsand they seem to come to me and share what they've done over the weekend or talk about theirboyfrlends--

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: and !like working with the colleagues. I like the women Iwork with-and thepeople. But that's the part that I like. I don't like teaching the skills of basketball or the skillsof field hockey or of soccer. It's really not my thing. And I guess It's the relationship that Ireally kind of like. And. I think I could be pretty helpful to people.

Allen:

Mill:Y:

So you keep talking about kids corning. talking to you with problems ..

Riw

Allen' "you talked about relatlonsh!p And Inoticed "relatlonsh!p" was a word you usedJust when you first started talking about swimming You liked the swjmmin~ But therelationship seemed almost as Important as the swimming.

M.ary: Y~h.

So that word "relationsh!p" Is a rea! kev one for you,tJ.kn·

Mary:

SUBTITLE: Summary

Yeah. it really is.

4

Allen: Okay. And what did you think you might like to do With this relationship IssuewhlCb seems to be so Important to you?


Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Well. you know. I think I'd really like to go to school train to be a counselor.

Ummm, You'd kinda like to be sitting In this chalI1

SUBTITLE: Interpretation

Right! (small laugh)

Uh-huh!

I think Iwould. I think I would llke to do that. (small laugh)

L=1

SUEn]TLE: Encourage

Yeah.

Allen: And so you're frustrated where you are now and you'd like to look--Iook atsomethinfl in the counselinfl area?

Mary:

SUBTlTI..E:Reflection of feeling. paraphrase

Yeah. I'd really like that.

Allen: Okay. I kind of have the fleneral map I would like to get just a couple more concretesabout where you an; tight now. thouflh

Mary:

SUBTITLE: Structuring

Mmm-hmm.

Allen: I'd like to hear--could you give me a specific example of a time when you really feltkinda high on the job?

SUBTITLE:Open question. further searchfor story strengths

Mary: Well. again It had to do with the one thing I like about the job. which Is teachingswimming and putting together a water ballet.

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

. Mary: Urn. And the kids all working together. And that's really about the only (smalllaugh) thing I really like about the actual work that I do. That was fun. as we developed ideasand created the music.

Allen: You know. the word iliat kinda stands up for me Mary ther~~;aet that eUjavmentand excitement there but you say 1twas the onlll thing that you reailY7n e.

SUBTITI..E:Confrontation

5

Mary: Well. really like I said. there's a lot of It that's pretty boring. Teaching exercise classevery day and soccer skills and basketball skills and you don't really like it. then you wonder Ifth.!s Is the place that you should be. You know?

Allen:

Mary,;

So I hear the excitement's In the relationship on the one hand-·

Mmm·hmm. Mmm-hmm.

Allen' And Ihear the boredom on the other hand And this has kinda led you to search forsome new directions? .

Mary:

Allen:

SUBTI11.E: Summary of major discrepancy

Right. Right.

Okay.

Mary: And there's a teacher-counselor In the school that I rather admired. And it justseems so interesting. the work that she does and-sand. uh, she's kind of been an inspiration tome. She made me think that I would like to do that kind of work.

Allen: So you have a teacher-counselor that's kind of an Insplration--

SUBTI11.E: Paraphrase

Mary: Yes. she actually--she became a counselor then and-sand, urn. she's been sort of aperson that I look up to and admire, and It just sounds like very interesting work which shedoes every day. She would be working with people and helping them. and I think that would begreat.

Allen: Okay. Another thing I think we need to look at is what Is your family situation?You sald you were In a relationship. I also saw that you had a couple of children. In the me.

Mao:.' :wiliI'd not heard anything about them and what's going on thereAll.e.n;

SUBTITLE: Focus on family story

Mary: Well. you know. they're In school and-sand doing fine and-sum. The fellow I'm goingwith Is not really excited about me going back to graduate school.

Allen: Uh-huh!

Mary: Not really at all. Not particularly supportive. Because I have a nice. stable job andIt'd be disruptive and-sand. you know, a sort of a hassle.

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

So there's a little bit of hassle !fYou talk about moviDflonto somethln2 else.


RIght. Yeah.

Mmm-hmm. And·-

It would be hard! (small laugh)

6

Allen: --where are younwhere are your kids on this?

SUBTfI1.E: Open question

Mary: Oh, It's going to be hard, though. You've got kids and there are actMties going onand it's going to be hard. to also do graduate school. Its gonna be a little bit challenging! (smalllaugh In voice}

Allen: M=-h=. So 11 soundsnI almost hear Ukeyou've kinda made a tentative~QIl1IIl1tmentto graduate scllool and counsellIll! Is thatn?

SUBTITLE: Interpretation leads to restorymg

Mary: Well, I really feel Ijust can't continue doing something that doesn't feel right for me.I want to do something where I feel like I can make a contribution. I need something that wouldbe more challenging and exciting for me, and more fulfilling!

Allen: So the feedbac;k I ~Iyeyou at tbls point Is that you realN come across IS that--vervmuch--you'd like to move onto something new. I think that's really Important. You comea<;ross like--arn Iheating you accurately on this? I'm giving you that type of feedba<;k.

SUB1TI1E: Summary with check-out

Mary: Well I--l--You Wow urn Iwould I'm you }mow I'm a l--a little nervous about itIt's. you mow. it's a newnlt's a big change. And--and anytime vou do that. that'snthat'snthat'ss<;ary. But. urn you mmv I realN would like to.

SUBTITI.E: Note several speecb hesitations

Allen: Anduyour fliend's name is--7

SUBTITI.E: Closed question

Mary: Bo.

Bo.Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mmm-hmm.

And so 80 vb. doesn't quite go along with this?

SUBTITLE: Closed question

No, he doesn't.Mary:

Allen: At the same tlme J hear (pauseJ--on the one hand 80 doesn't On the other hand youdo J k1nd of beard you kind of balanCIng yourself <;onslderlngwant to do that but whateverhappens with that reJatlonshlp--happens.


Mary: Perhaps that relationship isn't as Important as--

Allen: Uh-huh.

--me being satisfled in something I'm going to have to do the rest of my life.Mary:

7

Allen: So ! reallv get the feeling for the moment that that Is. at least. prettY clear.

Mrnm-hmmMarx.;

Alkn' Where you stand In that relationship

SUBTITLE: Feedback

TITLE:Stage 3: Determining Outcomes"What do you want to have happen?'"

Okay. Uh. So, let's think for a minute about goals. Uh. m:t~~ld ~::&~~m~f~el ~~~t~it tLTllehad been worthwhile to you? What woul ur u h v~at leasUer todW Uhn

SUBTITLE:Open question, restorymg

Mary: Well, you know, you know a lot about vocational counseling and getting people intograduate school. How would you go about doing this. Is this a realistic goal for me to=to thinkabout being a counselor? Is this something that I can do?

Allen: So the one thing you'd like to baSically discover Is counseling a realistic picture?

SUBTIT1..E:Paraphrase

Right.

I've got that.

And do you think I'm cut out to do this klnda work?

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen: I do know that the relationship word that you used Is really critical becausecounseling Is about relationship_ .

SUBTITLE:Feedback

Mary: And that's what I like best about the work I'm even doing right now.

Allen: Mmm-hrnm. And you come across llke a real caring indMdual who really wants tQbe involved with people.

SUBTITLE: Feedback

Mary: I really do. That's the part of the job that I like. With the kids. And I llke the--theteachers.

Allen: So one thing you'd like to have--a little more vo<;ational Infonnat[on about theprocess of counseling and graduate school and SO forth.

M.ary: Yeah.

alkn' So--and if we just get that far tQday would you be satisfied?

SUBTITLE:Summary, goal setting

That would be great!Mary:

8

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

MansaJ.l.l:.n;

Mary:

Allen:

M.lwG

Okay.

You're going to get me started in a hurry! (smalllaughl

We're eolIW to set that as a @al.

Encoura2t me to start.

Because (we donl know where we're eolng we may end up somewhere else.

SUB1TILE: Focus on Mary's central issue

(small laugh) Yeah! That's TIght!

Iwant to make the focus on what you want.

~We can ch~e our goals as we eo alone.Alkn.;

SUBTITLE: Information. structuring ,

Another piece. though, Is--! find really helpful in vocational work Is please close your eyes fora minute Just irnag1Deyourself five years from now In a Job that you might like. And justthink allow whatever comes across in Nur mind.

SUBTITLE: Imagery directive"What is an Ideal story?"

Mary: (pause) Well. the first thing that comes across In my mind. is I am sitting in anoffice. talking to people. And I'm not outside In the field dealing with forty kids. I'm In anoffice talking maybe to one student or maybe a group of students. Maybe even a group ofstudents. talking to them about colleges. going to school. going Into college, or jobs. That wouldbe neat.

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

How are you feeling as you see that 1mage?


Mmml (pause) Feel calm. Feel!ng--

Mmm-hrnm,

--relaxed. Feeling. hmm, that feels pretty right to me.

Allen: Mmrn-hmm. Okay. Thank you Macr, I get a contrast from your earlierconversation because r heard the boredom. ! also sensed some kind of tension as you talked.

M~ Mmm-hmm.

AUeD' So basically on the one hand where NU are now gives you a little feeling of morecomfort Is that what would you say? On the one hand where you are nown?

Mary:


I'm frustrated and--

9

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Frustrated.

-vnot particularly happy.

And on the-von the other hand. Jfyou could achieve this ideal--

Mary: I'd feel better about myself. I'd feel ltke I'm doing something more challenging andinteresting.

Allen:

M.ary,'

So we kind of have the real--

Mmm-hmm,

Allen: --and the ideal. here. At the moment. And we also have a concrete!!Oal for thisparticular session.

Mary:

SUBTITLE: ConfrontationSummary of real and ideal story

Mmm-hmm.

TITLE: Stage 4: Exploring alternatives andconfronting incongruity

Allen: Some little bit of information. So I think Imight Just toss the ball for vau for just aminute and ask vou-what occurs to you? What might you Me to ask me to ask me about thecounseling field?

SUBTITLE: Structuring. Open question

Mary: Well. how do you go about getting Into a program? Imean. what's required? Whatkind of time?

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mmm-hmm.

How do you know what a good program would be that would be suitable for me.

Isee.

What aspect of counseling should I look into?

So as I hear you right now. you're really sort of totally at the start,


And you know we have the University here In town and there's a state coIle~ it's a littlecheaper.

Mary; Mmrn-hmm~

nuh twenty miles down the road And both of them have really !!Oodcounselinge.JJm'programs

Mmrn-hmm Mmm-hmm.Mary'

One's handy: the other will Involve a little more distance

Allen: And, uh, I can arrange for vau to have some written information abQut both ofthQseprograms

10

SUBTITLE: Information-giving

And. uh I--we could go llirou@ a whole raft of thine:; And ctght now. rm lust going to gothrough a few questions and--questlons I'm gOnna ask are going to be about. uh your collegegrades uh your other :weclal Interests I've heard your--relaUonship and so forth And I'malso gotW to talk a little bit about uh. the financIal thing And we're going to go through all ofthese issues. That'll be the next thing well do.

Ma.o!.' .QkaL

SUB1TILE: Structuring

TITI.E: Portion deleted.Interview continues with focus onoccupational information and planning leading toaction on a new possible story

TInE:The Interview turns to personal Issues

Allen: But as part of th at wbUe we were talking you did a couple of times mention yourrelat10nshm with Bo rm a little confused, I heard you say he wasn't a factor;

Mary' Mmm·hmrJL

Allen' And then Ibeard that you .. part of this Is I actually heard vou say you thought ofgoing and visiting the stat$: unlversltv But the things that he said sort of kept you from goiNAnd I wonder if you could share a little bit more.

SUB1TTI..E:Summary and confrontation

Mary: He's discouraged me because of the security of the job I'm In, and not to sort of ruinthat. And, you know, he was not really supportive or encouraging. Actually, he thought--maybe I should do something totally different! You want to do something different? Go Intobusiness! Don't do something like this. You don't have to go to graduate school. Do somethingdifferent, you know? Go Into business. Imean, I don't know where he was coming from!

Allen: Mmm. And yet (pause)--! kinda get some mixed feelings about It. I get a feeling thatyou rely on Bo a 101 for support.

MSliY: Mmm-hrnm.

tJ.1m;, And then Ihear you on the other hand saying ..

SUBTI1LE: Summary .confrontatton.

it klnda feels kinda scrambled sometimes talking. Is that a fair word to use? Scrambled?

SUBTITLE:Reframe of story

Mary: That's right. Yeah. I would say. urn. you know. it's nice to have a supportrve person.but, um--

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

11

MJl.O!,;. --to thIs area. It--yoy know. it's not there.

Allen: See--

Ma.o!.' Feels I1kesomething I have to do on my own.

SUBTITLE:Mary considers restorylng

Allen: Yeah I think what we might like to do Is something we someUmes caU (pause)story-telling particularly from a gender perspectlye Ihear some rnale/femaleissues In hereAnd--could you sort of pretend for a minute that you're Bo? And sort oneil the story from hispeTSllective Howrni!Wthe be looking at you? And pretend you're Eo for a minute and tell methe story from his perspectlye.

SUBTITLE:Gender focus, Directivefor role play concreUzing the story

Mary: Well, here's this very nice woman whose an excellent teacher. who gets greatreviews, who the kids like. And a wonderful school system. Why bother to change or dosomething different? I mean, why upset the apple cart? Wby make more work [or yourself?You've got kids to raise and

---you know. You mow, for me to be wtth-vl think he wants me to be with him. Urn.

Allen: And so you--so, Bo. you'd really like to be with Mary more and not have her lose her.attention while she goes to school--I'm pretending you're Eo.

SUBTITLE:Allen imagines Be's story

Mary: Right.

Allen: I'm counseling Bo now.

Right. Yeah. Takes too much time. Too much focus away from him.Mary:

Allen: Okay. Let's come back to you. How do you feel about the idea that Eo wants the focuson him? As we lust did a little bit of a sort of Gestalt type of exercise?

SUBTI1LE: Open question

Mary:

Allen:

It feels kind of selfish. It feels like. urn, that's not-vtt's not really gonna work.

Mmm-hmm.

Mary: You know, that relationship isn't gonna work.

Allen: Mmm-hrnm.

Mary: And, urn, you mow. Particularly if he can't be supportive in this area that I thlnklsimportant.

Allen: So I hear you saying that the two oryOYare seeing thini!S djfferently--therelationship might not work and yet relationshlp .. on the other hand relationships are prettyimportant to you So.


12

Mary: Yeah, but that relationship won't work for me, The Qther relationships will work.

SUB1TfI.E: Mary Is generating a new story line

Allen: Ah-ha, So you're a Uttle farther aloD2"--

~ Maybe there's somebody else.

Allen: --In that role-played discussion with Bo than I klnda thou~t you were listening toYOUrself Earlier I heard you saying that you really needed his support. and relationship asyou moved out into something new And now I hear you corning from a dUIerent place-- so I geta Uttle bit confused about where you are at this moment


Mary: Well, I (laugh) --you know, you always feel a little confused--and change Is alwaysdifficult.

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: And um to leave something that's comfortable is gonna be pretty hard But yet Ifyou feel like you want to grow yourself and do something different you sometimes Just have totake a risk And taking a risk is dUDcult.

Allen:

SUBTITLE: Mary changeson the Confrontation Impact Scale asshe 'explores a new story

I sense a lot gfstrength In Yourself as you say that Ihear the determ1Datlon.

SUBTITLE: Reinforce strengths

that you like Bo but It sounds like you're going to make your own declsiQD Even thoughoccasionally he appears now and then.

SUBTITLE: Summary

Mary: I think S(J. I have--I--I've thought about it. And 1--1feelllke It's time. You know, 1can't do It later. It's gotta be time now. Now's th~ time. Not later.

TITLE: Stage 5: Generalization and transfer of learning

'Will you do it?"

Allen: and so--so MaD' I've Jsjnda gone through sQme possibilities for going on In counseling

~ Mmm-hmm,

Allen: Of an the things that r talked about. what sort of stood out for you from this sQrt ofdiscussiQn about gettin51more information. and follow-up in different places?

SUB1TILE: Open question

Mary: Well, I think it was helpful to get some specific Information, because you have to--you have to start someplace and--and with good information, someone telling you=gtvmg mesome direction. It really. helps you to focus on--on what needs to be done.

13

Allen: WelL that's kind of general. What one thing stood out for you as I talked about. ub,the counsellni and thtrn!s vou needed to do?


Mary: Well,it gave me some encouragement. You said that 1 seemed to Uke relationships.Arid that was one of the critical things, So it gave me some confidence to think that I probablycould really actually do this because I'm good and relatlonships are Important to me and that'sone of the critical things in counseling.

h Is JLWD right from the start where you talked about relationshipAllen: So that t eme s 0

beini tmportant In YQurwQrk with swinuning,

Mmx; Yeah. That's right.

Allen' And we talked about YQurrelationships with the teachers the col1e~ relationshIpswith the kids.

MJl..!Y,; Y~

Mlm;, And the idea of using counseling as a way to use some ofyour relationship skills--

M.m:.' E.lW

AlI,!;,n' and that strikes you as central.

Mary:

SUBTITLE: Summary

Yeah.

Allen: Now the real crucial Issue is. of course. action.

Mmm-hmmMary:

Allen' I think we need to get illtalking and a spec c commitment to do somethln~ We've done a lot of

Mmx; [small la ugh)

Allen' a variety of things can be done as you start thinking about this cQunsellng fleld. Youneed to really go and Interview at these universities,

Mary:

SUBTITLE: Confrontation seeking action

Mmm-hmm.

Allen: You really need tQtalk to counselors and learn a little bit more about what they do.because - as I listen to you. you seem to have kind of a general idea of the field. And I think youneed be aware that nQt evel)'thing in counseling Is Interesting.

SUBTITLE: Feedback, Advice

Mary: So--

Allen: Therenthere's a"-can be a boredom factor there sometimes. too.

Man:; ~--

14

Allen: So you've wt to watch out for a counseliry! lob that just sits you down and--andnever lets you see kids SometImes they only let you do schedullrU.!,

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

SUBTITLE: InformatIonl Advice

So it would be a good Idea to see counselors besides the one person I know?

Mmm-hmm.

Yeah. Interview other counselors and see what they do.

Allen: So, could we contract then for YOU to go out and see somebody,Also Visit wduate school. Which university do you think you'd like to visit first?

SUBTITLE: Aiming for concrete actionand generalization

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

I think I'd like to go to the state university. I think that would be great.

Okay.

I think that would be closer and. you know, I think I'd like to do that.

And we've found=

Is that a pretty good program?

It's a mat DTQf,pJWl I went there.

S.UBTITLE: Self-disclosure

(small laugh)

And r thInk that you would really do well.

SUBTITLE: Encourage

Ah. I'd like to-vl think we've kinda got a good vocational plan.

Mary:

Allen:today?

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

~

Mmm-hmm.

Mmm-brnm. Okay. Well. are there any other Issues that you want to bring up

No, I think that's about it.

Mmm-hrom.

I'm ready to make some changes In my career.

All. So what I've beard In this lnterview so faro-and I'd Ilke to do one final thing--

Mmm-hmm

15

Allen; --as we mqve toward the end, Is--I heard relationship, relationship. relationship,heard that you hadn't been getting into lookl~ in the counseling field--

Mary' Mmm-hmm

Allen' --yh partly because yoy've allowed yourself (-Is that r12ht WQrd?)--to let So makedeteun1natlons to you. And, you haven't really said much about It. You're not reallYthe personwho shows much In the way of anger or frustratlon--yuu did use the word "frustration,"

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

SUBTITLE:Summary, focus on keyword

Mmro-hmm.

I get the feeJ.!m of frustration with YOU.

SUBTITLE:Feedback

Mmm-hmm.

Allen: Ah. But I gQtthe sense you moved alo~ as yuu began to $IV, "Qh, rm going to have tofocus OD me and my needs"

M.a.cL; Mmm-hmm.

And I really do want to follow up and look at this counseling area more.Allen;

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

M.\liY:

SUBITILE: Summary of developingchange in Mary's story

Yeah. Yeah.

And more. Is that kind of a--?

That's right. That's rtght.

Okay.

Yeah.

Now In this whole Interview--

Mmm-hmm,

Allen: --uh, what has stood out for you of all the things that we've talked about? Just anyone thing. .

SUB1TILE: Open question

TITLE:What one thing stands out for youfrom this session? - Often a valuableway to end your conversation.

Mary: Well. as I said before, relationship. And then I think the real commitment I have todoing something different. and to move into counseling. And move out of--of a field where I'mnot as happy. Into something right. 1 really expect to feel better about myself.

16

Allen: Okay. we've got Just about two or three minutes left. And. we'll set up anotherappointment with the secretcuy on the way out. But. It's really Important that some of thethings that we do In here to ensure Utat change is fol!owed through on

Ma.oL; Mmm-hmm.

And so. what do you plan to do next week?Alli:.n;.

~.~.

)Vell. I hope to get the Itterature from you

Yeah I'll get YOU the literature yeab.

SUBTITLE: Generalization

Mary: Right I'd like to explore the programs. I'm probably pretty committed to theuniversity. I'd like to get over there and talk to some people there about the program. And Ithink I'd like to talk to some counselors In the field besides this one friend of mine. You know,to get different perspecUves--

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Mary: --for what It's like. And what aspect of counseling-vis It school counseling? Is itmental health counseling? What kind of counseling do I want to do? And find out what'srequired and even the details, Do we have to send transcripts or what? What exactly do youhave to do? Fill out applications? What are the steps that have to be followed to make all thishappen?

Allen: And so rather"-you really sound like you're really ready to move on this It makesme really--feel real1v good--

SUBTITLE: Paraphrase, self-disclosure

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

Allen:

Mary:

I believe so.

--to hear that. I think. It'd be--I think you'd make a great counselor.

Thank. you!

I know you'll make a great counselor! So.

(srnal! laugh)

We']) look forward to seeing you next week and see how it goes.

Thanks, Allen, I appreciate It.

TITLE: End Five-Stage Interview

17

Tape ~ Assertiveness

TITLE: .Assertiveness Training:Developing an Action Story for Sexual Harrassment


TITLE: Thls Is a follow-up from the BasicListening Sequence Demonstration

The Ftve-stage Interview adapted toassertiveness training Is presented Ina brief demonstration

TITLE:

Stage 1: Rapport and Structuring:"Hello·

Norma: Kathryn, 1 received a call from Dr. Ivey and he told me that you were cominghere for some assertiveness training. to the women's center. He brtef=brtefed me a littlebit on the fact that you've made a decision not to take any legal action against your bossbut would rather be able to talk to him about what he'd done and how you felt about It.And so maybe r can give you a little bit of the background of one of the things that we'regoing to do here today, is role-play. I just want to know if you're comfortable. if youeven know what role-playing means.

Kathryn: I'd think it'd be helpful if you would explain It just a little bit more for me,

Norma: Well. role-playlng--I'm going to at sometime either play the part of your bossor I may play your part,

Kathryn: Okay,

Norma: And I'm going to ask you to do the. like. sort of actually it's kind ofexperiencing rather thanjust talking about the--the action.

Kathryn: Okay. Good.

1TJLE: For demonstration purposes. Stage 1 has beenmade deliberately brief.

Be sure you develop a working relationship withyour client before moving on to Stage 2

TITLE: Stage 2: Gathering information. defining the problem,and identifying assets

"What's your concern?"

Norrna: But before [ do that. I wonder if you might give me a little bit of backgroundabout exactly what happened and why we're at this point.

1

Kathryn: Well. urn. it Was a situation a couple of weeks ago now, and I was. urn. notconfronted, If you will, but I was at the elevator watt~ to. uh. go for a run. And my bosslust hapDened to be walklne- by and stopped and noticed I waS In shorts, and certainlYthat was different than office att1n: rdnhe said. 'Wow. what £!reat lee-syou have' Urn,they're lust so long and strong and lean and--well I wish my e-irlfrlend had--could havelee-s like that"

TITLE: Kathryn's story

And I just was like. "Oh, well, you know, 1--1guess. you know. but well, you know. I try tokeep In shape", very, like almost m.aking me feel kind of self-conscious. All of a sudden.like, you know. And then I apologized quickly for being In this attire. you know. I said.'Well. you know. I'm don't normally=I wouldn't be like dressed like this," "No, you lookgreat! I just love It!"you know. and just kept on going on. And. urn. I--I--IJust--and--and-sand talked about the detail .. And talked about--I mean. he was with a client thereas well, And I felt another male=another gentleman. And I just felt really like what Ifthis other gentleman. you know. In a situatton=what if I'm In a meeting with him nextweek? And all he's going to think about Is what this guy said about my legs. I'm notgoing to have any sense of self or-vor I'm not going to feel empowered to be who I am,Where I'm going to be.

h I I you felt ye:c::apologetic,Norma: So I--what I hearvou saying Is 'Ii on on;fe;;jonausm awaY You wouldn'tMade you feel almost small. And that It too your prcomment on how he looked In a suit

Kathryn: No!

Norma' And that made you feel!M that YOU weren't going to be as effective. actually,In your work And the other part Is that you really are anm,

SUBTITLE: Reflection of feeling. confrontation

Kathryn: 1-·1think I am. I think because tt-v-maybe because I hadn't said anything,urn, you know, as of yet. I've decided not to take legal action but=but because [ haven'tsaid anything and because I feel he shouldn't=he shouldn't be doing that. You know?He shouldn't be saying those things to me,

Norma: Ah, one thing I wanted to ask you is. how do you feel about, ah, not 1~lee-a!action but actually beine- able to--to confront him I think on the issue How doesthat make you feel? Are yOUn?


Kathryn: Well, I feel very, urn, I mean. I almost feel-vl feel strong about It. Urn. I feelgood about the decision, Urn, r feel that if. urn=I think it's okay to take legal action andI think It's right in some situations. But my sltuatlon-vl really need to gain Innerstrength about myself and=and learn to work with him again. and In the future, And--and by doing that, I need to-vl need to talk to him and I need to be strong about myself.First, before anything. I mean. who knows. maybe down the line right now. I need somework on how I interact with him and=and-vand finding strength In myself to go on withthis.

Norma: all right Then the first thing we're e-olngto do--and I thlnk it mlght helpand it will help me as well too--iS sort of role-play

Kathryn: Okay.

2

Norma: And what J thought I would like to do. If It's comfortable with you is 111role-play your boss.

Trn.E: Role-play concretizes the story

Kathryn: Okay.

Norma: And, uh, what you--what we're really tIying to do Is that--how you're going toreact. And. uh, and that's really the first step. So it'll be behavior and how are you goingto react and all when I--I'm playing your boss.

Kathryn: Okay,

Norma: Uh, what's his name, by the way?

Kathryn: What's his name? (short pause) John.

Norma: Okay, then I'm sort of--I'mJohn. Is there something that you might tell meabout John that might help me role-play more realistically?

Kathryn: Urn, he's--well, I mean, I can=I think he's--he's very opinionated. Urn, urn,very strong-willed. He's very knowledgeable, very bright. very-overy intellectual. Andsometimes. urn, often disengaging.

Norma: Kathryn, I'm going to role-play John now. Okay. what I want you to do Is--Ispretty much act the way you would normally In this interaction that you had with himon the elevator. So we're on the elevator now and 1say, wow. Kathryn. you look prettygood! Uh. Those are some legs you have!

Kathryn: Yup. (bold soundJng) Well, you know. 1try to work out quite a bit. Urn. And.you know. stay In shape. It's important to me.

Norma: Well, l just Wish my girlfriend had legs like that. Uh. Just really--somethingelse! Hey. and by the way, you--you know Bill. He's one of your clients. Isn't he? Aren'tthose great legs?

Kathryn: Urn. yeah, llke I sald. I mean. It's--It's Important for me too-to, urn. you know.stay healthy, I-·you know. I--you know. I keep In everything in moderation. though.and--andjus1 um you kn0w--

SUBTITLE: Note speech hesitations and nonverbals

Norma: You know, on Friday we have that day that you don't have to come all dressedup. Come looking like that when you come on the job instead of wearing those slacksthat you wear, or the jeans. I think you're always wearing jeans. aren't you?

Kathryn: Well. you know, I mean, It Is kind of Fall weather now. but--but. urn, yeah, Idon't--no, I mean, I don't--I mean, I don't know. I mean. J Ukejeans. I--I'm comfortablein them, You know. my ofilce Is kinda--kinda cool a Uttle bit these days.

1TTLE: Role plays clarify stories andclient behavior Is observed directly

Norma: QkaY Kathryn let's talk about how you're feeling right now! (small laugh)

SUIl1TILE: Important to focus on feelings first

3

Kathryn: Um, God. ! mean. Talk about flashback. Urn. Well. first of all yOu play agood John! (small lau2h) Urn. But. 1mean, evervthlng from that dav waS--was--was--just came I1ght back I mean yeah. the situation with the cUent and wtth·-wtthconttnuln2 to cOJDIIlenton my legs to--l0 bt1n@12 his \Urlfriend I mean Ilust--oh! 1--1don't know.

SUBlTl1.E: The story takes on immediacy

1TI1E: Stage 3: Determining Outcomes

"What do you want to have happen?"

Norma: Well. let me hear with you what J was observing. and maybe this Is the firststep in assertiveness training--

Kathryn: Mmm-h!Dm.

Norma: Is that When I started talklng the first thing you did is you were !QQWdown, You never once looked at me, There was absolutely no eye contact. And that waSalmQst llke you were shrlnk1ng, I could see yQUshrtnkln2--


Norma: --I could see shrtoking--! COuld see YOushrtnldng In that uh elevator Theother th!rJi J watched iso-maybe you weren't conscious of this--but it was almost likeyou were pul~ your dress down, You were rubbing your hands on--on YQurlegs as IfYOuwere hying to hide

SUBTrILE: Feedback on the concrete story

And so one of the thin2s I think Is really very Important--a couple--!s that you be2in--1fwe're 20in2 to be assertive as--not only as women. as men, but men I think have aneasier time One Is eye contact

Kathrvn' Uh-huh,

Norma' You see,:! can look at you, !f--if! look down--well what--how I look whenI'm lookln2 down. (pause)

Kathrvn' Little, kind of like maybe like urn you know. like a little child Like,embarrassed

SUB1TILE: Behavioral Instruction toward a new story

Norma: Very good (snaps fingers) Very, very good

SUB1TILE: Encourage, positive strength

Kathryn: Urn. You know, Like a little girl.

Norma: Even llke that better. "Like a little girl."

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: Okay. So one of the first things is the eye contact The other is also how youphvslcally hold yourself J mean. thls--th!s sort of--In--in--In communicating It's noton!y--I1's ylsual It's also DQn·verbal

4

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Norma' So one Ofyour non-verbals is that I'm you know sort of Uke this

SUBTITLE: Behavioral instruction

And kind of--how does that look when I'm pulling my skirt down like that?

StJl3TI11,E: Open question to involve client

Kathryn: Conscious of something, l1ke--like ••or--or--or self-conscious aboutsomething. That something's--I mean, I don't know--I don't know (small laugh). I don'tthJnk it's bad, though. I mean, what--what ts-»

Nonna: What I think you're--I think one of those thlm~s that--that you're worriedabout being very self-conscious.

S~E: Feedback

And so you sbould be somewhat COnscious of how you're sitting how your hands are ••are they relaxed? And so I think these are two Important things

SUB1TlLE: Behavioral Instruction

Kathryn: Okay.

Nonna: Uh, let's sort of take a breather now and kind of digest things.

1TI1..E: Stage 3 Continued:Identifying goals for anew storyafter a short break

Nonna: Okay, Katluyn. [think that you ••we did have a good ... talk about the non-verbals. And how you're gomg to come into--what I'd like to do is talk about how you'regoing to come into the office. I've identified a couple of things for you. Let me see youyou can-show you role-play.

Kathryn: So, I'm=I'm myself.

Norma: Now you're coming in; you're yourself and you're coming in the office. I••I'msitting behind my desk.

Kathryn: Okay. Andyou'reJohn.

Nanna: Yeah. I'm John.

Kathryn: Okay. Urn. Well. maybe It's something ••I'm.. I'm bringing him some workthat I•.

Nanna: Okay.

Kathryn: .. urn. brmgtng you some work to show you that I've.. I've done some work foryou and want you--have you take a look at It. And, urn, I'm just talking to you and I'mshowing you things and l'm--l'm looking at you. urn. I, urn, my hands are not down atmy body here, but maybe down at my side. Or maybe they're just ••they're=there's ••they're a Uttle stronger looking. Urn. Urn. they're not .. uh ••touching my clothing oraround it and conscious of what I'm wearmg or how I'm looking.

5·

1TILE: Kathryn has just summarized her behavioral goals for a new story:.

It takes longer in a real session-the client needs to Internalize goals to ensure behavioraltransfer.

1TILE: Let us listen to Kathryn's Intemallzed goals again.

TIiE FOILOWING REPEATS TIiE BEHAVIORALGOALS

Kathryn: Okay. Urn. WelL maybe it's something-·rm--rm bringing him some UJO('kthat 1--

Norma: Okay.

Kathryn: +urn, bringing you some work to show you that rve~·rve donesome work for you and want you--have you take a look at it. And, urn. fmJust talking to you and rm showing you things and rm--rm looking at you.urn, I, urn, my hands are not down at my body here. but maybe dowrt at myside. Or maybe theY'reJust--theY're--there's-theY're a l1t:t1e strongerlooking. Urn. Urn. theY're not--uJ1--touching my clothing or around U:andconscious of what rm wearing or how rm looking.

Nonna: That's vety good but wha--what was interestlnl! was you're talk:i.ng aboytcoming Into the office and bnnglng him some work. And I'm talking about cOlniI1i inthe office and talking to him about what happened with your legs And so how are yougoing to go about doing that? We've got the eye contact. We've got the--the. uh. nOD-verbals fairly comfortable How are you golng--what are you going to say to blm?

SUBTITLE: Goals are pushed a bit farther

TITI..E: Stage 4: ExplOring alternatives andconfronting incongruity

'"What are we going to do about It?"

Kathryn: 1--1 think I need to say, you know, "John. can I have a few minutes ofyourtime? Urn. I need to have a conversation with you." Um. And, you know, 1--1 suspecthe'll--I--you know, I hope he'll say, "Yes,"you know, ''Please sit down." Urn. Although Idon't know Maybe I will close the door Urn Urn, And I'll sit down and--and I'm goingto think about it--I'm going to sit back a little bit and--and I'm gOnTIanI think I'm gonnaact l1ke I care but at the same time. I'm not right In there--wUh my shoulders back.Show1ng--show1ng I1ttJe--a little strength. maybe? Is that--?

SUB1TILE: Clear, behavioral goals vital for story action

Norma: Well, one of the things that I heard when you first started, Is you said, "John,can I have a little bit of your time?" But that-vis that what you really want. is a little bitof his Ume? What--what might be a more assertive or way ofverbalJz1ng what you'resaying?

Kathryn: "John, we need to talk about something. Okay?" (laugh Isigh of reUef1) Urn."John, we need to talk about something, and I think it would only be right if we do itright now. And if not right now. urn. let's figure out a time when 11'sgood for both of us."

Norma: Well, you know, I'm sort of busy now. And, uh, you know,is it that Importantthat you need to talk to me? What's this about? Imean, we have no work to do rightnow.

6

Kathryn: Urn. It is important. Urn. It's important to me. Urn. And I think it should beImportant to you.

Norma: What do you mean. "Important to me?"

Kathryn: Urn. J want to talk and (pause), well--Xwant to talk about an incident thatbappened a couplena couple of days aflo. And Xwas--wenwe were-owe were talking urn.1was !WIngto be taklng a run And uh we were waitlnfl for the elevators. And YOU you)g1ow. you made a comment about how I looked And he says 'yeah you looked matSo what? What's the bi£ dear?" And maybe that's what you would have said But. yougldn't xou--you'd !ZoneInto detaD about my lellSand--and Xjust don't think that's--that~proDrtate. Um. In or out of the office. Ever. Inl don't know. I don't think It'sSlppropriate. Is that something you feel the same about?

SUB1TI'LE: Practicing the new story

Norma: Well I certainly think that you're d01n1fa floodJob of your yerbal1zinfl'Cause that Is certatnly much to the point, Inl reallv felt that you did a flood Job.

SUBTITLE: POSitive feedback

Now, what you're going to have to contend with--and maybe we can't really go into--If Ireject this. Or I become--what happens if I become defens!ye when you talk to me?

Kathryn: I think (Sigh!. um--

Noona: How are you IN~ to handle that?

Kathryn: (pause)

SUBTITLE: Confrontlve open question

Norma: Well. I don't understand why you're so upset about that, Kathryn. I mean, Ijust--uh--well, you've got=youve got good legs. What am I gonna do? Great legs! So youhave good legs? You're just too sensitive. you know. It's very typical of women. beingsensitive, you know, all this sexual harassment stuff going on.

Kathryn: Well U 15 sexual harassment John I mean. how can you make a commentabout my lees, my flood looks ((.. If It's not that? I mean what other definition wouldyou put on U?

SUB1:rT1.E:Story becomes action

Norma: Well. most women like that! I mean, I thought you'd kmda like that.

Kathryn: Look, llmow how I feel. I know how I look. Urn. There's enough SOCietalthings out there that are teJl1ngme how I should look. Why do I need someone withwhom I work with, uh, With whom I. you know. Interact With, whom I have to interactwith in a very professional setting. making me feel conscious or being conscious aboutmy legs? Why is that important to you? Why is it important to enter that conversationinto the workplace?

Norma: Well, [would say. Kathryn--I'm--I'm out of--I'm not John! (small laugh) I'mNorma. now.

Kathryn: I knowl (small laugh)

7

1TI1E: It does not always happen this easlly. butthe structure and method remaIn the same.

Often several practice role plays are required.

1TI1E: Stage 5: Generalization and transfer of Learning

"Can you take the new story home?"

Norma: If you could--Ifyou can sustain what--the way you've reacted both verbally.non-verbally. and. uh, I think you can deal with John. Uh, what we need to be preparedfor is--is--is whether you're going to be able to sustain this kind of. um, reaction in--inthe real world (snaps fingers). And before we go out-sand I think one of the thJngs wemight want to do is have another session.

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: And sort of reflect on how you came across. Which 15 vexygood. I mean. youreally did a superb job!

Kathryn: Oh, God! (sigh of relief)

Norma: And It--it does reflect, I think, one of the things that AI told me, is that youhad a mother that was a very good role model and was able to take care of herself andstand up for herself--

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: --and still gtve--and still be warm and giving. but on the same hand being incontrol.

Kathryn: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: And I liked what I saw. And I'd like to have one more session with YOU beforewe launch you-- .

Kathryn: Yeah! I'd--

Norma: --work!

Kathryn: I think that's good, though, 1--1think that would be good. But I--

Norma: How do you feel right now?

Kathryn: I feel good!

Norma: You feel good?

Kathryn: I feel just like I--like I--like my back is straight and my--I'm--my--my chestis high and I feel really good that--that--that I can do this. But I also realize that. yeah.it Is a very non-confrontational session. Urn. That you are sitting here with me inyour--in--and you're not John. And I--and 1--1do need that practice.

Norma: But I think you needed that practice and I do think that one of the things is--you didn't come across as being aggressive. And I think that's one of the things thatmost of us as women worry-are we going across aggressive? But you came out assertive,sure of yourself. and in control. I liked what I saw.

Kathryn: Okay. Sounds good. Thanks. I hope it works again. (pause)

TITLE: End Assertiveness Training

8

Tape 10

1TILE: Teaching Microskills to Clients:Tra1n:lng as Treatment

Norma Gluckstern with Allen Ivey

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Nonna' And one way we get out of ourselves Is maybe to look at another person

~. Mmm-hrnm

Nonna: So one of the first things ls for YOU to do. ls look at me.

Norma: AI. we've been doing these tapes-at's hard to believe-vsince 1974. And since this SUBTITLE: Directivemay be our last tape, what do you think we ought to do with our finale?

Allen: First of all. thank those people out there for listening to us. What we're goingto do In this one Is focus on teaching other people the skills of interviewing. Now.we'renot ma.k1ngthem Interviewers. But we're really 100kJngat how you can through --aquick. short Interviewing strategy--teach somebody else attending behavior. I find I use1t again and again as a therapeutic adjunct.

If Bruce can pan over to me here for a moment. uh, I'lljust start to tell you a brief story.Back In literally 196&, I was working with this college student that was depressed, He:!ald '1 don't have any frtends: And so on the spot I did informal training In attendingbehaVior Eye contact forward lean and so forth. And 10and behold he went back andbe came back and said be'd found some Wends So many of these skills we're workingon in here can be very useful as quick short strategies to teach people some usefullIkills. So I'd like 10 think about the whole idea of teaching skills In counse~ andtberapy;.

SUBTITLE: Training as treatment

Please note that skill teaching does notmove as fast as this demonstration.

Norma: You look pretty down. Could you talk a little bit about what's happening?

Allen: Well yeah I just feel ldnda Uke there':!--mmrn--(pausel (slghl--klndabarrased inside and just fee! really crummy I mean thln@ are so bad and uh I--youknow, I--my family doesn't, you know, (pause) doesn't listen to me, And I've got so manyllTQblemsand !sigh) I lust don't feel like I can (Pause) do much.

SUBTITLE: Depressed clients focuslnternally on themselves

Norma: AI. I wonder Ifyou'd llke--ldnd of look at me, and that might help you. Oneof the things Is that=that might bring you out a little bit Is paying attention to=justlook at someone else. How do you feel when you look at me?

Allert: Hmrn. (s:ighl Wel! I still feel down, but. uh I--you know I do notice that;muve ~ot a--a brigbt. uh [pause) . uh shirt on.

SUBTITLE: Focus moves slightly external

Norma: Okay.

Allen: And. you know--

Norma: One ofthe things that--that Is--\o help you thlnk about somethlng else!;!es!des\/OUrself and that's one of the things that we're going to try to do this afternoon,~ help you maybe get out o(yourself

1

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: And you did! You observed.

SUBTITLE: Reinforce even small positives

Now one of the things I want lsmaybe you can--coroe on back, I'm losing you 'Causeyou're--when you do that it means you're gettlWl back Into yourself Now

SUBTITLE: Holding client focus externallycan be difficult

Allen: Yeah and I ti dno ce that I breath a little f 'reer when Im up like this (siiWl

SUBTITLE:Look fOTbody changes

Norma: And now what I'd like you to do Is sort of look at me and think aboutsomething you Wght like to ask me. Sometblng you might like to know about me.

SUBTITLE: Directive

Allen: Urn. (pause) How old are you?

Norma: Now that's a good question! You know that I've been fifty-holding for thelast twenty years' (jaugh)

Allen: Oh.

SUBTITLE:Expect slow starts!

Norma: I used--what made you smile when I said that?

SUBTI1LE: Reinforce positives

Allen: Oh, dear. Really=you're a klnda funny person at times, even though I do feelpretty sad! Uh.

Norma: Well--

Allen: So what--you see the ba:!lc point is that--(pause}--(stghl--

Nouna: The thlng--

Mku' I'm thinking about myself too much,

SUBTITLE:Allen gets the point

2

Norma: And what I think I want to by to do is sort of teach you some of what we callattending skills.

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: Or active listening sk111s.

Allen: Mmm-hmm.

Norma: And one oUhe reasons we do that Is to help you eet out of yourself. lfyou'reconcentrattrn! oil how I feel then how are you @lne to think about how you feel? And soaver the next few weeks we're 20~ to work on that Concentratlne on how somebodyelse feels. And you do that by eye contact. by listening to their voice. and by what theysay. And so I think that's what we're going to do. Well tIy it. It's not genua be easy.

allim' Ah It wQll't hurt Won't hurt

SUBTI1l.E: Emphasize generalization toreal hfe

TITLE: Debriefing the demonstration

Allen: And basically this is what I did in the--in the hospital. I've done It for years. Andbelieve it or not--and it would take a longer tJrne and I'd often get Videotapes andpatients would see themselves moving back and forth. .

Norma: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And just treatment in attending behaVior and open Questions were enou2h toeet Datients who'd been in the hospital literally for twenty years. dut. And. uh. it's gultewnazin2. uh. that this particular simple social skill isn't used more with depression. Igonl claim It's a cure-all but I go say It's one of those lmportant pieces of counsellneanA therapy. Ah. Teachine people skills.

SUBTITLE: Iraln!ng as treatment

The other p!ece--and you've certainly done a lot with that--would like these people to1al}S:about is that you dig some wonderful work In 1raln!ne communltv volunteers in1hese S}s:!lls Ang we hope--YOu know. a lot of people out 1here are eolng to be doimpeoole--golIli trainlne of peer counselors peer volun1eers ang so forth

SUBTITLE: Teach skills topeers and volunteers

And so as we wind up, Norma, if you could sort of tell them about some of your ownexperience In training groups using these skills.

Norma: Well, I think my interest in communication came really because of AI. Uh, Ihad been inundated with theoretical aspects of--of counsellng. Uh. And then I wrote anarticle which said It really didn't matter (small Iaugh) what theory it was. What reallymattered was the relationship that you as a counselor could establish with your client.And that's when I met AI. And what I find is that he taught me how to communicate.And that he taught me how to communicate as a counselor and later, I communicated asjust a person. I find that those skills that I use as a counselor, I use more of the lIstenlngskills than I do the Influencing skills.

3

But that has, in fact. created for me a--a good feellng peop--people feel about me. And so Ias a therapist don't really wony too much about what my theory--what Ireally worryabout is how can I con--how do I l1sten? How do I attend? How do I ask the right kind ofquestions and paraphrase? And sometimes that's all I need. Sometimes then I have togo onto the influenctng skills., because you really do, then. need to help your, uh, clientssort out. You get them moving. But tt's--but 1t's--what is most 1mportant from myperspective Is how we communJcate. Because that's what I call the three' V's: how wevisually look at someboW. how we vocally $lung. and how verbally we SQung.

SUB'IITLE: Three V's .of attending

Allen: Hmm. And one of the things I really liked in your work is when you got outand trained peer volunteers basically the same way people are going In this class.

Norma: Mmm-hmm.

Allen: And you were the first person--I think you were the first person--you're thefirst person, certainly, to demonstrate that peer counselors could change what happensin the lives of their clients.

Norma: Okay.

Allen: Research is the first that anybody'd done. And basically took people throughthe same type of training that people in the class are--are doing.

Norma: Absolutely. And, uh, it was--it was very rewarding for them as it was for us,in the fact that this was one of the first opportunlties to look at whether this was Viable.Yeah.

Allen: So one thlru! I would like to say as we close 1s think about yourself as youteach your skills. One. 'in the interview with, uh. normal clients. kind ofwatch whiifsgoing on. More severely distressed also can benefit from this. And flnal!Y~hlnk~utthe Idea of \l"oiM out arig tralnlM peer volunteers community volunteers lIsteSkills themselves. The counselor as a teacher of skillS

SUB1ITLE: Tra1n1ng at treatment

I'll give you the final word ...

Norma: No, I think you did It well. And thank you for listerung to our tapes.

Allen: Thanks, Norma.

TITLE: End Teaching Mlcroskills

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