3 401 BRENNINKMEIJER · 3 406 CORKE Where is it? st Ansgars Mission. --It is in Roodepoort Magisterial District just off the Ontdekkers Road. Is it called Mission, st Ansgars? --I
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3 401 BRENNINKMEIJER
organisation which would help Blacks to attain community
orientation, community sense, work together in order to better
their living circumstances and things that they could attain.
And did you get to know Zeph Mothopeng? I got to know
Zeph Mothopeng towards the end of 1974.
Was he employed by the Urban Resources Centre? -- Yes,
towards the end of 1974 he became employed by the Urban
Resources Centre as director or field director.
BY THE COURT: As field director? -- Yes.
Director in the field as it were. -- It was to oversee (10)
the actual . activi ties of - we had at that time t ,wo field
workers at work in different townships around Krugersdorp.
MR WILSON: Was one in Kagiso? -- One in Kagiso at that time
in 1974 and one in Davidsonville.
Is that a Coloured township outside Krugersdorp1 -- I
understand so.
Was he subject to the control of the trustees? -- He was
indeed.
And as far as you were concerned, how did he carry out his
duties? -- I must say we as trustees were very pleased with (20)
the performance of Mr Mothopeng as director, as reports came
in fairly regularly and were tabled and discussed and he
received orders from the trustees for carrying on further work.
And what about the finances of the Urban Resources Centre,
how were they controlled? -- As treasurer I made it my duty
of course to see that ' projects were prepared and that actual
income and ex penditure were monitored, written into proper
books and proper books were kept and audited anually.
Would it be possible for anyone to spend any of the money
of the Resources without accounting for them? -- Not (30) '
really, no.
And/
3 402 BRENNINKMEIJER
And how was Mr Mothopeng as regards the keeping of
accounts and rendering accounts? -- I found him personally in
very precise, and detailed and/official and more unofficial
contacts he was frequent in sense of phoning me, asking me this
and that has to be spent, may I spend this and how do we go
about it. I gave him then also advice how to go about it.
And did he account to you for all moneys he received?
He did indeed. I want to add that I did not keep the detailed
cashbook, I did more the statements half yearly or three
monthly, the daily cashbook was kept by others.
But that was audited each year. Sure, it came into
the ledger and then so it went into the ••
Did you know Mr Michael Matsobane? I did.
How did you know him? -- Mr Matsobane •• (intervenes)
BY THE COURT: Michael, is it?
(10)
MR WILSON: Michael Masobane, accused No. 13. -- At the time I
remember that Mr Adam Smal was at that time trustee. He had to
resign because he returned to the Cape and for him a new trustee
had to be appointed and another gentleman, also a trustee,
resigned, so two we needed and Mr Matsobane was one of (20)
the persons that filled the position of trustee.
And the other one? Mr Corke? -- Mr Corke, yes.
We had a minute put in, M'Lord.
BY THE COURT: You have got the date, have you?
MR WILSON: The date, yes, M'Lord, it is EXHIBIT WWWW, it was
on the 6th March, 1975.
BY THE COURT: That was the first meeting I think that No. 13
said he attended.
MR WILSON: That is where it is minuted: "Appointment of
trustees as Mr Savage and Mr A. Small h ad resigned from
the Board of trustees, Mr Matsobane and Mr Corke were found
ready/ •••
(30) '
3 403 BRENNINKMEIJER
ready to accept the appointment in their places. The meeting
confirmed these appointments."
BY THE COURT: Oh, yes, I think No. 13 was not certain· whether
he was present at that.
MR WILSON: He is recorded as being present, but they attended
the meeting and at the meeting they attended, they were offi
cially appointed. Do you know anything about the Young African
Christian Movement or the Young African Religious Movement? -
No, I cannot recall anything.
Did Mr Matsobane play any active part as a trustee of (10)
the Urban Resources centre to your knowledge? -- No, I must,
if you ask me this now, I think I had - I remember Mr Matsobane,
having met him only at one or two meetings.
BY THE COURT: Has any arrangement . been made?
MR WILSON: M'Lord, I have a second witness dealing with the
same matters and it might be more convenient if I lead both
witnesses.
THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.
MICHAEL ARTHUR STANTON CORKE: sworn states:
EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: What are your qualifications? (20)
-- I am a schoolmaster. I have a first class honours degree
from the University of the Witwatersrand, I went to the
Johannesburg College of Education and I have a Transvaal
Teacher's Higher Diploma with distinction.
Have you any overseas experience? -- I have taught at
Clifton College, Bristol.
And where have you taught in this country? -- At Pretoria
Boys' High School.
BY THE COURT: When were you at Boys High? -- I started at
Pretoria Boys High in 1960 and from late 1960 to 1961 I (30) ·
was in Bristol and then I returned to Pretoria Boys High until
1964/ •••
3 404 CORKE
1964.
So you were there quite a long time. -- A fair time.
MR WILSON: And after Pretoria Boys High did you go to another
school? -- I went to st John's College which is a private
church school in Johannesburg.
And were you there for some time? -- I was there for 6
years.
And what position do you now hold? -- I am now headmaster
of st Barnabas College in Johannesburg which is also a private
church school. (10)
BY THE COURT: You are now there? -- I am now there. I have
been there for the past 8 years.
MR · WILSON: 1965 to 1970 at st John's.
BY THE COURT: Then 70 to 74. 70 to 78, no, M'Lord, you
have the dates wrong. It was in the sixties that I was at
Pretoria Boys High and in 1970 I left st John's.
You left Clifton? No, Clifton, I was there for only a
year. Then back to Pretoria Boys High until the end of 1964.
Oh, 64? -- Yes.
I thought you said 74. -- No, 64, I beg your pardon. (20)
And then st John's College until 1970 and since then I have
been headmaster of st Barnabas.
MR WILSON: In addition to your position as headmaster, do
you serve on any boards or committees? -- I am a member of
the Conference of Headmasters and Headmistresses of Private
Schools in South Africa and I am a member of the Transvaal
•• whoops ••
BY THE COURT: Headmasters? -- Conference of Headmasters and
Headmistresses of Private Schools.
Is that for South Africa? -- That is for South Africa. (30) '
And in the Association of Private Schools I am a member of the
Transvaal/ •••
3 405 CORKE
Transvaal Regional Executive.
MR WILSON: 00 you serve on any other boards? -- Yes, I am
on the governing council of the Inanda Seminary which is
a private school of the Congregational Church in Durban, just
to the north of Durban in Kwa Mashu.
BY THE COURT: How do you spell it? -- Inanda.
Just like Inanda in Johannesburg? -- That is correct.
It is a very old school, it is 109 years old.
MR WILSON: And anything of a more general nature? -- I do not
think so. (10)
Were you approached to become a trustee of the Urban
Resources Centre? -- Yes, I was.
When was this? -- It would be around February or March,
1975.
And did you agree to that? -- I agreed to become a member.
And did you serve as a trustee? -- I served as a trustee,
as a non-executive trustee.
What were the aims and functions of the Urban Resources
Centre? -- I think in essence the aims were to try to provide
a better quality of life for people in what I would call (20)
disadvantaged communities, the Black areas of Johannesburg.
They did this, as I understood, through first of all encouraging
people to improve the physical nature of their environment,
they taught them arts and crafts. There was quite a progressive
arts and crafts centre at st Ansgars Mission.
BY THE COURT: Can you now tell me please once and for all
how do you spell precisely st Ansgars1 -- well, I spell it
A n s gar s. I think that would be the spelling.
We have had so many pronunciations that it has been
difficult. A n s gar s1 -- Yes, and I think t~ey leave
out the apostrophe.
Where/ •••
(30 ) .
3 406 CORKE
Where is it? st Ansgars Mission. -- It is in Roodepoort
Magisterial District just off the Ontdekkers Road.
Is it called Mission, st Ansgars? -- I think it is just
called St Ansgars, I think so.
Can you just tell me what it is precisely? Is it a
collection of buildings, is it a church hall or what actually
is it? -- It is a collection of buildings. I think they are
owned by the South African Council of Churches and it is
basically a community centre, a retreat centre and a conference
centre. (10)
It stands on its own land, does it? -- It stands on its
own land. That land is contiguous with Wilgespruit Fellowship
Centre.
Mr Wilson, perhaps you can just refresh my memory. Is
that where many of these arts and crafts and various lessons
or things were held?
MR WILSON: Yes, at St Ansgars.
BY THE COURT: At st Ansgars.
MR WILSON: Yes, the Urban Recourses Centre's things were held
at st Ansgars, the Urban Recourses Centre functions. There (20)
was another meeting at Wilgespruit, a meeting of YARM was held
at Wilgespruit.
BY THE COURT: Yes, but I am not thinking about a meeting of
YARM now, it is just that I remember evidence being given about
various night studies or various lessons or whatever you would
like to call it, lectures about arts and crafts and things
like that. Was this all at st Ansgars?
MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, the night studies were held in class
rooms at schools. Certain schools which names I have now
forgotten and when they got too many for that, they moved (30)
to another school in the township, but the arts things were
all/ •••
3 40 7 CORKE
all held at st Ansgars, the arts and crafts.
BY THE COURT: You know that young girl who gave evidence
for the state, told us about the lectures and the various things
she described about arts and leather work and beadwork and
candle-making, that is St Ansgars?
MR WILSON: That is st Ansgars, yes. Is that so, that is the
type of activity? -- That is correct.
And th e literacy classes were at st Ansgars.
BY THE COURT: Do you know? -- No, I was not conscious of
literacy classes at st Ansgars. (10)
Well, it depends, you see, it may be a matter of semantics,
she may have known them under another name, it is quite possible .
MR WILSON: My Learned Junior informs me and I think he is
correct, they were at Wilgespruit, the literacy classes. And
what other activities, apart from the arts and crafts did they
carryon, the Urban Resources Centre, that you can recollect?
As a member of the trustees I became conscious of a scheme
of community buying, of bulk buying in order to reduce the
costs, as it were the retail costs as it were of goods which
people were finding expensive. (20)
BY THE COURT: There were other schemes. -- The other schemes
of which I was again conscious were again schemes relating to
self-improvement, but I am afraid I am not very clear about
the kind of things which were done. I believe literacy training
may have been a part of that. I am conscious of talk about
trying to teach people motor mechanics and to find people who
would share their skills with others and in this way try to
help people in the community to get better qualifications.
MR WILSON: Did you meet Mr Mothopeng? -- Yes, I met Mr
Mothopeng on the first occasion that I attended ~he trustees' (3C
meeting.
And/ •••
3 408 CORKE
And we have heard evidence that he was the director or
field director. -- I think he was termed - he was in fact termed
the director of the Urban Community Programmes.
And did he render reports to the trustees? He was most
meticulous in rendering reports. He did so at all meetings
which we attended.
And how did you find his administration of finance? -- I
had absolutely complete faith in his administration of finance.
We examined balance-sheets and accounts regularly at meetings
and there was never any occasion on which I felt there was (10)
any question which could be raised about the administration of
the finance.
Did you know anything of the Young African Christian
Movement or the Young African Religious Movement? -- No, I knew
nothing of that.
Did you know Mr Michael Matsobane? -- I believe I met him
once at the first meeting which I attended, but I could not say
that I know him, I grew to know Mr Mothopeng but not Mr
Matsobane.
If I could deviate for a moment before I come to the (20)
next topic. What are your views on the Black people in this
country obtaining equality with the Whites? -- I think that I
would say that I was committed myself to promoting the advance
ment of Black people right across the broad spectrum of our
society. I believe that this should be done not only in the
interests of justice in our country and in the interests of
fair play, but basically also fundamentally in the interests
of the White community. I think I would say that I would stand
for a program of integration of institutions within our country.
And how do you think it should come about? ~- It W)uld (30Y
need to come about through a far more generous sharing on the
part/ •••
3 409 CORKE
part of people who wield economic and political power in this
country. It really requires in the first instance a level of
sacrifice or apparent sacrifice on the part of the White
community.
How do you think the Black people should go about attempting
to obtain equality? -- It is very difficult for a Black person.
I would say that where educational opportunities are offered to
them, this is the sphere which I understand the most and I
would suggest that this is an area which is absolutely funda-
mental to bringing about any kind of peaceful and pro- (10)
gressive change in South Africa. And consequently I think if I
were a Black man I would above all else be looking for good
education for my children.
And what are your views on the youth, Black youth becoming
politically active? -- Well, in the school I run I do not
encourage it. I think they should be politically aware, they
should be conscious of the nature of the society in which they
are living, but I would be very unhappy to see pupils in my
school involved in overt political activity because I believe
this is very often a distraction and that it detracts very (20)
much indeed from the attention which they can give to their
stUdies and I would say that I normally suggest to my pupils
that they are far better off matriculating and hopefully
obtaining graduate qualifications so that they can participate
meaningfully in the running of the country.
Do your pupils attend any of the classes in arts and crafts
at st Ansgars? -- Yes, I think for a period of about two years
as an extra-curricular activity of the school we have been
sending in the school microbus parties of pupils to st Ansgars
to do pottery and silk-screen work. (30) '
BY THE COURT: Do you mean it is two years now that you have
been/ •••
3 410 CORKE
been sending them or can you give me a date when you started
sending them? -- I think from the beginning of 1977 but I speak
under correction, I cannot be sure, I would need to go back to
my records.
You see, it is very confusing, we are in 1979 now.
MR WILSON: Yes, it would be 1977 and 1978. -- Yes. I think I
would say that I sent them at that time because of the -
because I liked the whole tenor of the way in which the place
was being run. I had confidence in the kind of activities which
they would undergo and we sent them accompanied by members (10)
of our staff.
Would you have done so if you felt there was any danger of
political indoctrination? -- No, I do not think I would. It was
in fact I who suggested to members of our staff that this would
be a good activity.
BY THE COURT: Are these then to the various classes or lectures
or activities that the Urban Resources Centre held at st Ansgars?
That is correct. Except that I think by the time we sent
them, the program had a new name, it was the Urban Community
Programmes rather than the Urban Resources Centre, but it (20)
was as a result of my experience with the Urban Resources Centre
that I allowed them to continue under the UCP.
Urban Community Program. -- That is correct.
Was that simply a sUbstitution of a name? -- No, it was
- it resulted as a merging of Urban Resources Centre with another
organisation which was also interested in that kind of work.
Can I just be clear. Are you then still the trustee in
this new body or what is the position? -- Yes, I am a trustee
in the new body.
MR WILSON: Was the Urban Resources Centre in any , way (30) '
what is called a front organisation for the Pan Africanist
Congress/ •••
3 411 CORKE
congress? -- No.
Did it to your knowledge have anything to do with the Pan
Africanist Congress? -- No.
BY THE COURT: Were you aware that Mr Mothopeng and Mr Matsobane
had been avowed supporters of the Pan African Congress? -- No.
And had been to Robben Island? -- No, I was not aware of
that.
MR WILSON: Did the Urban Resources Centre have any political
leanings or activities as far as you knew? -- I was conscious
of no political activity. (10)
Another thing that I do not know if you can give. evidence
as to this. Do you know whether there was any dissatisfaction
against Bantu Education amongst Black children in the Johannes
burg area in 19767 -- I think I was conscious of that. I think
my particular position would have made me especially conscious
of it.
Do you know if Black children left the country to seek
education elsewhere? -- I could only go on hearsay.
It may have, I thought, have come to his knowledge through
meetings, M'Lord, where there was official or reliable (20)
information put before him, not hearsay; that is why I said I
was not sure if he could deal with it.
BY THE COURT: Wasn't it a practice of Boys High to send masters
for a year to particular schools in England? I remember another
master I knew there, I think he went to Eaton, you may know him,
because he went later , to St John's as well. -- That is right,
yes, there have been a number of those. Basically it is not
Pretoria Boys High which does that, it is the Council of
Education, the Witwatersrand Council of Education which is a ••
(intervenes) (30)
I did not say it was their idea. but there have been •• -
Oh/ •••
3 412 CORKE
Oh, indeed, there have been a succession from Pretoria Boys
High. The intention is to allow people to gain experience
overseas and then come back to South Africa in order to •••
(intervenes)
Did you find your Bristol experience in any sense
enlightening or helpful for your •• ? -- I think professionally
I found it probably the most formative professional experience
of my life and I have maintained contact with Clifton College,
there is a good deal of to-ing and froing between Clifton and
South Africa, and I visited Clifton, we visit .. it and their (10)
staff do visit us.
And you found it extremely helpful. -- Yes, it is a very
special kind of school, it would be classed as one of the top ten
public schools in England and extremely efficient and I was
going to say progressive but that would not quite be the word,
but it certainly - experience gained there is most useful.
Anything in their teaching methods that you found new or
novel or interesting or of assistance? -- It was 18 years ago.
It is a long time ago. -- Yes. Basically the methods
were the same. I would say staff qualifications were (20)
generally better than one found here, the facilities of the
school were of course far in advance of the kind of thing which
was being offered even in so-called White education in this
country.
But that is a fairly exceptional school just as Eaton
was. That also had a ••• -- I think not, I think not. There
would be a number of other schools probably totalling 50 or 60
in Great Britain. Not only the independent public schools but
also the grammar schools and the direct grant schools which are
now being dismantled. (30)'
Well that is what I was thinking. Those gave one of the
best/ •••
3 413 CORKE
best educations and they are presently being . dismantled.
Indeed, yes.
THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. THE COURT RESUMES ' AT lShOO.
JOHANNES L. BRENNINKMEIJER: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PITMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HAASBROEK: You testified that you
were a trustee and the treasurer •• -- That is right.
Of the Urban Resources Centre. Is that correct?
Yes, that is correct.
(10)
Until when were you the treasurer of the Urban Resources
Centre? -- Till April, 1976.
April, 1976. -- That is right.
Now, a certain letter was written by Mr Zeph Mothopeng on
the 11th December, 1975 to a certain Mr S. Andreas of the
HKKS Development Service in Switzerland. Do you know of such
a letter? -- I cannot remember.
Would you have been aware of any requests for further
funds ,by Mr Mothopeng as director of the URC? -- It would (20)
have been reported in the trustees meeting. Fund raising did
not totally belong to me, it was done very often by either the
chairman with the director or some other trustee, but I would
get the results when the money comes in, I would have to
handle it partiGularly.
You only handle the results? -- Yes, and I must say I was
in the beginning more involved with fund-raising th an towards
the second year of my tenure of office. Because we had to build
this up and once it ran letters were sent out under of course
the commands of the trustees as a whole and who did , it was (30)
immaterial.
In/ •••
3 414 BRENNINKMEIJER
In this particular letter, I am referring to EXHIBIT TTTT,
on page 3 of the letter, reference is made to a youth program
of the URC. -- Yes.
Do you know anything about the youth program : of the URC7
-- I know that the URC had a lot of young people involved in
its activities. URC had different projects that I know of.
It had an art centre training, where youth on Saturday
afternoons and sometimes during the week were trained in silk
screening and all these kinds of arts, candlemaking, etc.
Secondly Kagiso there was a youth involvement in the sense (10)
that education was given, people who somehow had missed
studying for JC, making their examination, this kind of thing,
were helped particularly in afternoon and evening classes to
get them through the examinations. For the rest I would not
know any details of youth involvement.
Do you know whether Mr Mike Matsobane, accused No. 13,
was one of the persons who were responsible for the UBC? -- No.
Don't you know anything about •• : •• 7 -- It was not dis
cussed in the trustees meetings.
•• involved in making or rather organising the (20)
youth scheme? -- That was never discussed at a trustees meeting
to my knowledge.
Were you aware of the fact that Mr Mothopeng was involved
in activities of PAC previously and that he was imprisoned on
Robben Island? -- Yes, we did. This was when he was accepted -
employment was accepted by the trustees this was mentioned.
And weren't you afraid that he could again make use of
the Urban Resources Centre or its sub-organisations to further
the aims and purposes of the PAC?
BY THE COURT: I do not think the word 'again' there is (30)'
apposite.
MR/ •••
3 415 BRENNINKMEIJER
MR HAASBROEK: Well, I refer to his previous detention. Anyway,
I will rephrase my question. Weren't you afraid that Mr
Mothopeng was in the position to make misuse of the URC in
order to further the aims of a banned organisation like the
PAC? -- To my knowledge when Mr Mothopeng was employed this was
- we were assured in the trustees meeting that the selection
committee had discussed this aspect of his previous life with
him; that the activities of our organisation called for no
further political involvement as far as our work was concerned.
What he did in his free time I do not know of course. (10)
Yes, Qbviously. ,-- But that as far as we were-concerned,
it would be the same situation, I understood it, as a teacher,
who, as far as his position and vocation as a teacher is con
cerned in his school vis-A-vis his children, would stay out of
politics. What he did after hours would be his.
Yes, I accept that. -- That was my understanding of the
situation.
Do you know whether any fund s of the URC were paid out
to the Young African Christian Movement? -- I have no knowledge
of this and in my tenure of office it did not happen as (20)
far as I know.
And do you perhaps know accused No. 13, Mike Matsobane,
personally? I do not know him personally, I know him as a
fellow trustee from, let us say the end of 1975 onwards and he
appeared, as I already testified, I cannot be sure, two
meetings or only the first one, but surely not so many that I
could really get to know him well.
Did he at all say anything at any of those meetings that
you can remember? -- I am so sorry, I cannot remember.
And do you at all know accused No. 18, the gentleman (30) '
sitting at the other end there at the back? -- Yes, his face.
Is/ •••
3 416 BRENNINKMEIJER
Is he known to you1 His face I know.
Do you know that he is the brother of Mike Matsobane,
accused No. l3? -- Ja, I knew that Mike had a brother and that
the brother worked at •• (1) •• and White on Horizon and that he
was employed there, but I never met him personally so that I
could put a name to his face. I know his face.
So it is then in order that it can be accepted that you
know nothing about his private activities. Is that correct?
-- This is correct, yes.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions. (10)
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
MICHAEL ARTHUR STANTON CORKE: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PITMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Do you know accused No. 18
in this matter right at the end there? -- No, I do not know him.
Do you know of the existence of the Agency for Industrial
Mission? -- Yes, I do.
Does that have anything to do with the Urban (20)
Resources Centre? That is the Agency for Industrial Mission. -
I speak under correction. As I understand the present constitu
tion of the Agency for Industrial Mission and the Urban
Community Program, there is some connection. I do not think
that for the period which we are talking about there was any
immediate link between the Agency for Industrial Mission and
the Urban Community Program - and the Urban Resources Centre
other than the fact that the Urban Resources Centre had its
origin in Wilgespruit which in turn is the organisation from
which the Agency for Industrial Mission has sprung. , That
1s how I understand it.
BY/ •••
( 30) '
3 417 BRENNINKMEIJER
BY THE COURT: What time are you talking about? -- I am
talking of the time between my joining the trustees of the
Urban Resources Centre and the time of its merger into another
organisation.
MR ACKERMANN: Who were the field workers for the Urban
Resources Centre, that is when you joined the trustees committee
in 1975? -- The accused, Mr Mothopeng, was the director and
certainly when it became the Urban Community Program then Leslie
Pitje was the deputy director who served under Mr Mothopeng.
Have you ever heard of the name Dan Matsobane? -- I (lO)
have heard of the name; I do not know Dan Matsobane.
And in what context did you hear the name Dan Matsobane?
I think he was connected with the Agency for Industrial
Mission.
Is there any connection between the Ur ban Resources Centre
and the South African Council of Churches? -- No, not that I
am aware of.
At no stage since you have become a member of the trustees
committee? -- There was correspondence in the early days between
the Urban Community Programe and the Joint Screening (20)
Committee of the South African Council of Churches, but the
connection was certainly a very distant connection.
And did you ever attend any activities undertaken 8S part
of the projects of the Urban Resources Centre? -- No, I only
visited the centre where the art work was being done, but I
never took part in any of the other activities.
You never attended any literacy classes? -- No.
Nothing of that sort. Now, I want to read to you a . very
brief exposition of the aims and objects of the organisation
YACM or as it became YARM, that is the Young African , (30) '
Christian Movement and I want to know whether this organisation
was/ •••
3 418 BRENNINKMEIJER
was the type of organisation that could have received financial
assistance from the Urban Resources Centre if only they approache
the URC for such a purpose. Now this was said by Mr Michael
Matsobane.
BY THE COURT: Mr Ackermann, I do not want to write
unnecessarily. What is the relevance of that?
MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, the state is trying to establish that
there was connection between the Young African Christian
Movement or YARM on the one hand and URC on the other hand and
this was denied by accused No. 13 as well as other (10)
witnesses but they also said that they were in dire need
of money.
BY THE COURT: But how does it matter that you ask Mr Corke
that he might have given money to Michael if he asked for it?
How does that help when I understand from the previous wit-
ness, this treasurer, he never heard of YARM or YARM, therefore
by implication he had never given money to them? What does it
matter if Mr Corke says well, yes, if they had asked, we might
have. I do not understand how it takes the matter any further.( 2
MR ACKERMANN: M'Lord, I will leave the matter there.
BY THE COURT: Unless you can persuade me. I do not want to
write an enormous amount of stuff, unless you can persuade me
that it is directly relevant. I do not see why I must be
obliged to write an awful lot of stuff that is not relevant.
MR ACKERMANN: It could only be of help to reflect on the
honesty of accused No. 13 in the sense that if he had to
obtain financial assistance why didn't he do so as far as URC
was concerned.
BY THE COURT: Well, I do not know. Was he ever asked (30)
whether he had asked? I know you asked him whether he had got
money/ •••
3 419
money from the World Council of Churches.
MR ACKERMANN: SACC, yes.
CORKE
BY THE COURT: Well, whatever it is called, but I am ,sorry, I
still do not see the relevance. Mr Corke would probably say to
you - well, I do not see the pOint, it is a hypothetical
question. Mr - the bishop has told us - I think it is the
bishop - that he does not know YACM and h edoes not know YARM.
So no doubt your Learned Senior would have, that being so,
did not worry to ask him whether any money - he asked for
money or he does not know. So how does it help to ask (10)
this witness who was not even treasurer, to say whether they
would have done something if an application had been made.
MR ,ACKERMANN: Yes, M'Lord, I will not proceed with the
question. It was the last question.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: You were asked about the South
African Council of Churches and you made mention of the
Screening Committee. -- Yes.
Was the position that •• (intervenes)
BY THE COURT: Oh, I thought the Screening Committee was the
one that he was referring to in the Urban Resources (20)
Centre.
MR WILSON: No, it was the Screening Committee I think of the
South African Council of Churches. -- That is correct.
Was the position, if I could just clarify it for Your
Lordship, that at the commencement when the Urban Resources
Centre attempted to obtain funds for itself, the South African
Council of Churches attempted to exercise some control through
the South African Council of Churches Screening Committee? -
That is as I understand it.
BY THE COURT: I beg your pardon? (30) '
MR WILSON: The South African Council of Churches has a body
called/ •••
3 420 CORKE
called a Screening Committee which, as I understand it, screens
requests for donations and that at the commencement they
attempted to exercise such authority over the Urban Resources
Centre, when the Urban Resources Centre made requests to
churches overseas, the South African Council of Churches
purported to have authority to screen their request for funds.
BY THE COURT: Is that sOl I do not know whether you know. -
Not in the time that I was a trustee, but my understanding was
that this had occurred before my joining the Board of Trustees.
MR WILSON: And the Urban Resources Centre objected to (10)
this. -- As I understand it, yes.
BY THE COURT: Well that is hearsay so we can cross all that out.
MR WILSON: Well, during your period they certainly did not go
through the South African Council of Churches at all when they
wanted funds.
BY THE COURT: Oh, I am sorry, the word 'Screening Committee'
where I got confused, you said that Mr Mothopeng had been •• -
He had been the director.
No, when you were asked about - the bishop mentioned the
screening •• (intervenes) (20)
MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, this witness mentioned - he wai asked
by my Learned Friend •• (intervenes)
BY THE COURT: ••• Mr Mothopeng's previous convictions and
there was mention made of a •• (intervenes)
MR WILSON: Oh, that is another screening, that is a screening
for employment, so there was confusion. No, this was merely to
make it clear that there was no connecti6n.
BY THE COURT: So the Screening Committee you are talking about
now has nothing to do with the committee the bishop was talking
about. (30)
MR WILSON: No.
BY/ •••
3 421 CORKE
BY THE COURT: In regard to employment.
MR WILSON: No. But during your period there was no connection
with the South African Council of Churches. -- No.
BY THE COURT: How do you mean no connection? -- Well, there
was correspondence but certainly about old outstanding matters
but there was no immediate connection, no line connection
between UCP and the SACC.
BY THE COURT: In any case if you wanted to get money from
people or apply for money from people wherever they may be,
you did not feel required to get the consent of the South (10)
African Council of Churches. -- No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
THE COURT ADJOURNS.
3 4 2 TSOLETSANE
THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 23 r d JANUARY, 1979.
RODNEY TSOLETSANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)
EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: What is your date of birth?
11th November, 1956.
And where were you born? -- Born in Kagiso in Krugersdorp.
And have you stayed in Kagiso throughout your lifetime? -
I have stayed in Kagiso all my life.
And did you also attend school in Kagiso all the time? -
That is so.
It is common cause that you attended school at
Masupatsela High School in 1976. -- That is so.
When did you start attending school at Masupatsela High
School? -- In 1972.
And in what class were you in 1972? -- I was in Form 1.
(10)
BY THE COURT: That is the beginning, is it, of the school? --
That is the beginning of the school.
MR SKWEYIYA: And did you remain at Masupatsela High School
until you were in Form 5? That is so.
And during your stay at Masupatsela High School did you
take part in any student bodies or activities? -- Yes, I (20)
did take part.
In which particular activity did you take part? -- The
debating society, in sport I was a tennis player.
And dealing with the debating society, what was your
speCiality in debate? I specialised in politics, current
affairs and history. "
And how often were these debates held in your school? -
Once every week.
By THE COURT: Can you just tell me something? What is form
5 in relation to matric? -- Form 5 is matric. (30) "
I get a bit confused. Is that form 5 then the year in
which/ •••
3 423 TSOLETSANE
which you do matric? -- Form 5 is the year in which a person
completes m~tric.
It is sometimes called standard 10, is it?
MR SKWEYIYA: Yes, that is right, M'Lord. Now, did you hold
any special position in the debating society at any stage? -
Yes.
What p0sition? -- In 1977 I was elected chairman of the
debating society.
And what was the general student's awareness insofar as
current affairs were concerned and historical matters (10)
were concerned? Or to put it simply, did they show any interest
generally? -- Yes, they did.
And was it common that there were frequent debates either
in classrooms or on sportsfields and behind classrooms and
laboratories?
BY THE COURT: Discussions you mean?
MR SKWEYIYA: Discussions, yes. -- There were current dis
cussions.
On various topics? -- On various topics.
Now, do you know a person known as Sabina Makhubane? (20)
Yes, I do.
And in what way do you know her? -- When I was in the form
4 class she was in the same class as myself and we occupied the
same desk and we used to attend to our problems in maths,
biology and physical science together.
And where did you attend to these problems? We did these
problems, we tackled them in class or I would go to her if I
encountered any problems at home and she would in turn also
come to me if she has any problems that is at home.
And did you meet each other frequently to discuss your (30) '
problems? I mean after school. -- Yes, we did.
And/ •••
3 424 TSOLETSANE
And where was she staying at the time that you used to
discuss your problems togethe~? -- She was staying at Bro
Mike's place.
Is that accused No. l5? -- That is so.
So is the position then that you frequented accused No.
l3's place? -- That is the position.
And did she also come to your place frequently? -- That
is correct.
Do you know one Jonas Letswalo? -- I do know Jonas Letswalo.
He has given evidence in this court, he said that he at(lO)
times helped you and Sabina with Maths. -- That is correct.
And was this at accused No. l3's place? -- This was at
accused No. l3's place.
And he also said that at some stage he fell in love with
Sabina. Is this correct? -- That is correct.
So is the position then that in fact Jonas used to see you
frequently at accused No. l3's place? -- That is so.
NOW, Rodney, do you know about YARM or YACM? You know
about the existence of that organisation? -- Yes, I know when
it was introduced at school. (20)
Were you ever a member of YARM at any stage? -- Yes.
When did you for the first time ever become a member of
YARM? -- This was some time in November, 1976.
At the time that you joined YARM in November 1976 to your
knowledge did it have anything to do with PAC or SASM or SCM?
No.
And to your knowledge did it have anything to do with the
bulk buying scheme? -- Not as far as I know.
Literacy scheme? -- Not.
Urban Resources Centre?
Sewing scheme? -- No.
No. (30 ).
It/ •••
3 425 TSOLETSANE
It is also common cause that on the 5th August, 1976
you were elected a member of an SRC at Tsoletsega School. Is
that correct? -- That is correct.
As a member of that body did you ever form a part of a
delegation which went to meet a divisional commander of police,
one Colonel Morkel? -- Yes.
Are you able to remember more or less when this was? -
This was in about September/October, 1976.
And who else went there with you that you can remember? --
I was together with Mothlagegi Thlale. (10)
No. 16. Felicia Sehume, Mr Matsobane, Mike.
No. 13. And Mr Mothlathledi.
BY THE COURT: Who was he?
MR SKWEYIYA: What was his first name? -- Moses Mothlathledi.
And in what capacity had he gone to see the colonel? -
He had gone there as a member of the Parents' Association.
Is this what we have heard in this court to be known as
KAPA? -- That was KAPA.
Now what was the purpose of your going to see the divisiona l
commander? -- We had gone to talk to the police (20)
commissioner to firstly secure the release of the students who
had been arrested and to ask him that the police should not
frequent the schools or to be seen in the vicinity of the
schools because children who are in school get scared and start
running away when they see the police.
You were detained - when were you detained for the first
time? -- I was detained in the early hours of the morning of
the 23rd June, 1977.
And were you thereafter released ? -- I was thereafter
released.
And when were you released? -- On the 25th of the same
month/ •••
( 30) '
3 426 TSOLETSANE
month.
And were you thereafter re-detained? -- That is 50.
When was this? -- This was on the 1st July, 1977.
And have you been in detention since the 1st July, 1977
to date hereof? -- Up to today I have been detained since then.
Now do you know one Felicia Sehume? -- Yes, I do know her.
Do you know if she was detained at any stage and then
released? -- Yes, she was.
Do you know when she was first detained to your knowledge?
-- I think this was in December, 1976. And then she was (10)
released in January, 1977.
And do you know if she was re-detained thereafter? -- Yes,
I do know that she was detained thereafter.
Now next let us deal with Felicia Sehume. She has given
evidence in this court and among the things she stated, she
alleged that you were present at a meeting at accused No. l3's
house in about March, 1976, where there were present between
12 and 15 students and where it was stated that an organisation
known as YACM had ch anged and called itself YARM. It was
fUrther stated at that meeting that that body was to (20)
revive PAC, through itself and through a body known as SASM.
It was also stated at that meeting that PAC has an army outside
South Africa and it needed students to join it and it was also
stated at that very same meeting that YACM had branches in
Germiston and Natalspruit and it would soon be opening a bulk
buying scheme. Were you ever at such a meeting? -- I was never
at such a meeting.
Were you ever at any meeting with Felicia Sehume where
PAC was discussed? Not at all.
Where it was said that YARM is a front for , the PAC? ,(30) '
Or where anybody in your presence and in the presence of Felicia
was/ •••
3 427 TSOLETSANE
was encouraged to undergo military training outside the
Republic of South Africa? -- No, I was never at any such
meeting.
And were you ever involved in a discussion with one
Benjamin Manamela, B.G., where Benjamin said that rn is going
to leave the country for military training and tried to
encourage you and Felicia to do the same? -- No.
And were you ever at a meeting with anybody, including
Felicia where it was said that SASM and YARM and SCM worked
hand in glovel -- No. (10)
Jonas Letswalo has also given evidence in this court. He
said that you and he and others, including form 2 and form 3
students, in about April/May, 1976 were present at a meeting
behind classrooms where it was called upon students to join
YACM. Do you know anything about that? -- I know nothing about
tha t.
And were you ever present at any meeting anywhere,
including accused No. l3's place, where it was said that YARM
or YACM is a front for PAC? -- No, I was never at any such
meeting. (20)
Or where anybody was encouraged in your presence to go
and undergo military training. -- No, I was never at any such
meeting.
Did you at any time before November, 1976 ever tell Jonas
Letswalo that YACM had changed to YARM? -- No, I did not.
Did you ever regard at any stage even after November,
Jonas Letswalo as a member of YARM?
BY THE COURT: Jonas or Johannes?
MR SKWEYIYA: Jonas, M'Lord. -- No, I did not at any stage know
him to be a member of this organisation. (30)'
And were you ever involved in several meetings with him
and/ •••
3428 TSOLETSANE
and others where people were encouraged to join YACM before
November? -- Not at all.
Were you ever at a meeting together with accused No. 13,
accused No. 15 at James Sejanamane's house where there was a
report back meeting about the number of students who had
joined or had been recruited to YARM? -- I was not at that
meeting.
It is common cause that you were at a meeting on the 5th
August, 1976 at Tsoletsega School. -- That is correct.
Old you at any stage at that meeting hear James (10)
Sejanamane encouraging students to go on rioting or saying that
it was a good thing which students were involved in? -- I did
not hear him say any such a thing.
And were you ever at a joint meeting of KAPA and your
SRC at accused No. 13's place where it was mentioned that
the children must be taken across the border to run away from
the police? -- No, I was not present.
Do you know Adam Kunupi? -- I do know Adam Kunupi.
Were you ever at a meeting with him anywhere where PAC
ideals were ever propagated or where people were encouraged (20)
to join PAC, or where it was said that YARM is a cover for the
PAC1 No.
Or where a demonstration of making of petrol bombs was
done by accused No. 131 -- No, I was not there.
On the 17th June, 1976 were you involved in the theft of
liquor from a bottle store at Kagiso? -- No, I was not there.
Or were you involved in the destruction of any government
bUilding or non-government building at Kagiso? -- I was never
there in that place.
Were you ever involved in the destruction of any (30)
type of property in Kagiso or outside Kagiso in 1976 at any time 7
--/ ...
3 429
-- I was not at such place.
TSOLETSANE
Do you know accused No. I? -- I do not know accused No.1.
You should know him now, but when did you start knowing
him1 Let me ask the question that way: when did you start
knowing accused No. 11 -- I came to know accused No. 1 on the
6th December, 1977 when I made my first appearance in court.
And before that had you ever had any dealings with
accused No. 11 -- Not at all.
Now, insofar as accused No. 2 to 12 are concerned, did
you know them before the 6th December, 1976? -- I did not (10)
know them.
And had you ever - well, it is obvious that you never had
any connection or dealings with them before that date. -- That
is correct.
Now, you, accused No. 15 and accused No. 16 were at the
same school. Is that correct? -- That is so.
And you were all senior students. Is that correct? -- That
is so.
And were you all involved with the debating society?
That is so.
THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.
THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR TEA. THE COURT RESUMES.
DANIEL MATSOBANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)
EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: When and where were you born?
I was born in Munsieville on the 8th December, 1946.
And where did you obtain your primary school education?
At the Phatudi Community School.
Is that in Kagiso? -- In Munsieville.
In the Krugersdorp area? -- Yes.
(20)
And where did you go for your high school education? (30) '
-- I started at the Munsieville Secondary School and then later
proceeded/ •••
3 430 MATSOBANE
proceeded to Kagiso to the Masupatsela High School.
And is that where you matriculated? -- I matriculated at
Bethal.
Is that Bethal Training College? -- Yes.
And from where did you go to? Did you go to university?
BY THE COURT: Where is Bethal Training College? -- It is in
the Western Transvaal at Bodenstein.
MR SKWEYIYA: From there did you go to university? -- Yes, I
did.
To which university? -- University of the North. (0)
And the year that you left what courses were you doing? -
Philosophy and Tswana.
And were those your proposed major subjects? -- Yes, those
were my major subjects.
And in which year did you leave the University of the
North? -- In 1972.
And after you left the university did you then start work
ing? -- Yes.
Where did you work? -- I worked for Hollowmore and Company.
BY THE COURT: Is that in Johannesburg? -- In Krugersdorp. (20)
MR SKWEYIYA: Is that in fact Hall, Long, Moore and Company?
Hall, Long, Moore and Company.
Did you leave that employment after some time? -- Yes, I
did.
And where did you work thereafter? -- At the Wilgespruit
Fellowship Centre.
From when did you start working at the Wilgespruit Fellow
ship Centre? -- Towards the end of 1973.
And as what were you employed? -- I started as a clerk
and I was later appointed a field officer. (30) '
Of which particular program? -- The Urban Industr~al Mission
Did/ •••
3 431 MATSOBANE
Did that concern adult education? -- There was adult
education in that program.
Were you in charge of the Urban Industrial Mission
program? -- There was a director and I was working under the
supervision of the director.
Who was the director? -- The Rev. Dale White.
And in your position did you have to attend and conduct
meetings at that centre? -- Yes, that is true.
And were you at some stage involved in a literacy program
course? -- Yes. (10)
And during the operation of that program or any other
program with which you were involved, did you have to keep notes
and give reports to those who employed you? -- Yes.
And I show you a document, do you recognise that document?
Yes, I do.
As what do you recognise it? -- These are minutes of a
training course.
BY THE COURT: EXHIBIT LLLLL. -- A training course for the
literacy program. This was for the teachers.
MR SKWEYIYA: And were those notes prepared by you and (20)
thereafter circulated amongst various people? -- Yes.
And were those notes also given to your employers? Yes.
You were also - M'Lord, I hand that in. It deals with the
dialogue, methods and what happened during that course and so on.
Were you also at some stage trained as a literacy teacher? --Yes.
And did you qualify as such? -- Yes.
And after qualifying did you have to teach others? -- Yes,
it is true.
And whilst you were being trained, were you the only person
who was being trained there? -- No, there were also other (30)'
people from different organisations.
Can/ •••
3 432 MATSOBANE
Can you give us some of the organisations who sent people
for training in that course? There were, besides the
organisation from which I came, a Lutheran organisation that
had sent people for training, there were people from the Anglo
American Corporation also sent there for training, there were
people from suburbs from Johannesburg who had also been sent
there to be trained. Those are the organisations I can
remember.
And briefly what did this course entail? Let me rather
ask this question: what did the activities of the
Urban Industrial Mission amount to? -- I would say it was an
approach by the churches to look into industry.
And do what? -- It was discovered in the course of time
(10)
in the churches that the congregants spent little time in
church, only about 30 minutes and this resulted in the congre
gants being not known by its leaders. The churches then sought
a manner in which they would do some ministry in industry.
In what way did they do this ministry in industry? -
Before doing that they wanted to know firstly what was happening
in industry. The Urban Industrial Mission took some time (20)
conducting a research into industry.
And was this the corporation of industries and the various
industries? -- Yes, it was.
Did you have to go to factories at times in the course of
your work? -- Yes, that is correct.
And did you during the course of your business there meet
with the authorities and employers? -- Yes, we met those who
were in the management and also the workers.
Did you ultimately engage in encouraging workers of
various places of employment to better themselves? -- Yes, (30) ,
we did.
Were/ •••
3 433 MATSOBANE
Were you encouraged by the owners and employers in
industry? -- Yes, this was encouraged. There was later a
legislation that there should be liaison committees, works
committees so that there would be communication between the
workers and those in the management.
And were part of your duties to make employees aware of
the existence of these bodies and to make use of them? -- Yes.
Now you yourself whilst you were doing all these things,
were you engaged in any private studies? -- Yes, I was engaged
in study. (10)
And where did you study? -- With Unisa.
And which building did you use for study purposes? In
the evenings? -- I was using the Kagiso Library.
And as a result of your studies there did you experience
in meeting other people, did you decide on anything? -- Yes, I
personally encountered problems as a result of reading alone or
studying alone. This was because I was not used to studying
alone, I had previously been lectured by either a teacher or
had somebody helping me. When I started studying with Unisa
I was either the only person or there were not many studying (20 )
with Unisa in Kagiso.
Did you find that students were doing lower classes with
some problems? -- Yes, they used to come to me while I was
studying. I think it was because they had known me to have
been in the university and also studying with a university, so
they came to me with their problems for me to help them. This
made me not have sufficient time to study.
As a result of that did you become involved in night
classes and trying to organise night classes? -- As a result
of these students coming to me, I decided to get people from (30)
outside, people from other universities to come and lecture these
students/ •••
3 434 MATSOBAN8
students. I had thought it wise to have study groups and my aim
was to start teaching people after having had these study groups.
It is common cause that night classes were held at Kagiso
for people doing various subjects. -- Yes.
And were there any people who had never been to school
who also wanted to be educated? -- Yes, that is correct.
And what did you do about this? How was this problem
solved in other words? -- After having met on the question of
having classes at school in the evening elderly people who
were not educated started coming. This is because they (10)
thought there were classes from Sub A upwards. I had at the
time already been trained as a literacy teacher. I was also
then giving lessons in JC and matric classes.
And did you then encourage other students who were at a
high educational level to try and help those people who had
never been to school? -- Yes, that is correct.
And did any of them become keen and what did they do as
a result of becoming keen? -- A few became keen and were
interested in helping. I also then had a lot of work.
And are you able to remember some of the people who (20)
became keen and ul~imately trained as literacy teachers? Yes,
Mado Mosweu, Christopher Seboka, Elizabeth Raborifi, Errol
Letseleha and others.
Did they in fact go and train as teachers? -- Yes.
And did they in turn try and help others who had never
been to school? -- Yes.
Do you know a person known as Angela Norman? -- Yes, I do.
From where do you know her or in what connection rather?
-- I know her as a literacy instructor.
Did you ever have dealings with her? -- Yes. (30) '
In what connection? -- It was in connection with training
the/ •••
3 435 MATSOBAN.E
the people whose names I have mentioned as literacy teachers.
Were these classes which were conducted at Kagiso open to
everyone? -- Yes.
And were they conducted at the school where they were held
with permission from the principals of the scho6ls concerned? -
Yes, they were.
Were they held in normal - during normal hours or after
work? -- Yes.
Do you know anything about the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes.
What was the bulk buying scheme? -- I would say it was (10)
an organisation by people who had come together who would put
money together and buy in bulk.
Were you ever involved in the bulk buying scheme, you
yourself? -- Yes.
Were you in fact present at the launching of this scheme at
Kagiso at the residence of one Mrs Raborifi? -- Yes, I was.
Was this meeting at which this scheme was launched, open
to any member of the public? -- Yes.
Are you able to mention 2 or 3 or .4 different types of
people who you remember who were there at that meeting (20)
launching the scheme? -- There was a minister of religion, a
social worker, a policeman, a teacher and ordinary people.
To your knowledge was this scheme ever involved in
politics or rather did it have anything to do with PAC? -- No.
Were you ever a member of PAC? -- No.
Were you ever convicted for PAC activities? -- No.
Insofar as the literacy course is concerned, do you know
if that scheme was connected in any way with PAC? No.
Was either the literacy course, the bulk buying sc~eme,
the sewing class scheme and other schemes mentioned in (30) '
Schedule 1 ever connected with PAC in any way? -- No, none of
them/ •••
3 436
them was connected with the PAC.
MATSOBANE
In other words the bulk buying scheme, literacy scheme,
sewing scheme and the youth awareness scheme or program, I
do not know what it is called. -- only know of the first three
you have mentioned, the last one I have no knowledge of.
Did you contact or come into contact with officials with
regards people employed at factories in regard to food parcels
and so on7 -- Yes.
In what way was there a connection? -- As I have already
said, the Industrial Mission covered a wide field. It had (10)
been discovered that the migrant workers who were in places
like Johannesburg had families of theirs left at their homes
who were suffering hunger. It was decided that these families
should be given help by making food parcels and having these
sent to the homes of the migrant workers.
How were these parcels sent to the families of these men?
These parcels would be sent to commissioners.
Is that the Bantu Affiars Commissioner? -- Yes, at the
places where the families are resident and then they would be
given to ministers of religion for distribution amongst (20)
the families.
It is also common cause that at some stage you were coopted
into the association of a body known as KAPA. -- Yes, that is
correct.
Now did this body, to your knowledge, ever ' have anything
to do with PAC? -- No.
And were you coopted into that committee in fact? -- Yes"
I was.
And can you remember where you were coopted? -- This was
in the community hall at Kagiso. (30)'
' Were you ever in,volved in a course know!1 as the leadership
training/ •••
3 437 MATSOBANE
training course? -- Yes.
Where was this course held? -- It was held at Wilgespruit.
And was this in the course of your duties as an employee
of that centre? -- Yes.
And was this course a closed course as it were, you know,
only open to certain people, or was it an open course for
whoever wanted to make use of it? -- It was open to anybody.
Did that course ever have anything to do with PAC or
propagation of PAC aims and ideas? -- No.
Now, we have heard a lot of evidence here about an (10)
organisation known as YARM or YACM. Were you ever at any stage
a member or supporter of that organisation? -- No.
And it is common cause also~at this organisation held a
seminar at Wilgespruit and that you were present during this
seminar. In what capacity were you present when this seminar
was held at Wilgespruit? -- I was present as an employee at
the place.
And Sejanamane has given evidence in this court to the fact
that it seemed as though you were helping accused No. 13 in
the establishment of YARM or YACM. Is that correct? -- (20)
No, that is false.
In fact he went so far as to say that at one stage there
was a meeting held at Aaron Khoza's parents's house where you
were present and where you offered to arrange for Wi1gespruit
to be a venue for various activities. Is that correct? -- That
is not true.
There was also evidence by a boy known as Adam Kunupi who
said that you were present at a meeting at accused No. 13's
Place where there was discussion about PAC and when you
encouraged him to go and undergo military training. Do (30 ) .
you know anything about that? That is not true.
And/ •••
3 438 MATSOBAN8
And he also said that at some other occasion you were
present at accused No. 13's house when accused No. I was
present and was introduced as a leader of PAC. Is that true?
That is not true.
Were you ever at a meeting where either Adam Kunupi or
Papuis Seroka were present or Jonas Letswalo, where accused No.
I was present? -- No.
And where PAC was discussed and people going out of the
country for military training was discussed? -- No.
Did you ever encourage anybody, including Adam Kunupi (10)
to go and undergo military training? -- No, I did not.
It is also common cause that at some stage Adam Kunupi
came to you or to your place and tried to persuade you to help
him to get out of this country. -- Yes, he did come to me.
And how did you deal with that situation? -- He had said
h e wanted to go to Botswana but did not say why he wanted to
go to Botswana and I said he can make preparations, I will see
if I can take him with me to Botswana over a weekend. By
making preparations I meant that he should get his papers,
documents for the journey ready. (20)
Yes, and then? -- He then told me that he had no travel
documents and then I wanted to know from him how he expected to
go to Botswana without a travel document. He then said that he
thought I knew how people could go to Botswana without travel
documents. I then told him that I did not know of any such a
thing. He then left me. He came back again on another day
and he still was telling me the same story that he wanted to
leave but that he had no documents. I then told him that he can
by no means leave for Botswana or go to Botswana without the
necessary documents and I also could not understand why (30)'
he wanted to go to Botswana without these documents. He then
said/ •••
3 439 MATSOBANE
said that he is fleeing from the police. I then asked him what
he had done to the police. He then said that he was arrested
or he had been arrested and was afraid that he might be arrested
again. I then asked him not to leave but to stay at his home
because h e would not just be arrested for no reason.
You never helped him in any way? -- Yes, I did not.
Did you ever make use of any of the projects you have
already referred to well knowing those projects to be aimed at
the eventual promotion of the aims and objects of the PAC?
BY THE COURT: I thought he said they were not. (10)
MR SKWEYIYA: M'Lord, in that case.
BY THE COURT: He has said already that none of those things
were involved or concerned with PAC so that I would have thought
that this question now is redundant.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: In connection with the
Industrial Mission you have told us you made enquirles at
factories and things. As I understand it, it made these
enquiries in cooperation with the industrialists who owned the
factories and it reported its findings to the owners of the
factories. -- Yes. (20)
Now you know accused No.1, don't you? -- Yes, I do.
Where did you meet him? At Wilgespruit.
And who introduced you? The Rev. Dale White.
And this was after he had become the director of the Ur ban
Resources Centre, wasn't it? No.1. -- Yes, it was.
And he was going -to be carrying on certain activities at
St Ansgars next door to you. -- Yes, that is true.
And you would both be doing community work of one sort or
another in the Kagiso and Kt- ugersdorp area. Yes.
And did he come along to introduce himself to the (30}
people at Wilgespruit? -- Yes.
Did/ •••
3 440 MATSOBANE
Did accused No. 1 later approach your director for assistanc '
with his bulk buying scheme?
BY THE COURT: Is that Mr White?
MR WILSON: Mr White, yes. -- Yes.
Was the position that his field worker who had done the
preliminary work had left him in the lurch? -- Yes.
That is his field worker in Kagiso. -- Yes.
And did h e approach your director and asked Mr White to
lend your services to the Urban Resources Centre to help launch
the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes. (10)
And did Mr White agree to this? -- Yes, he did.
And did you then help launch the bulk buying scheme?
Yes, I did.
And at the opening meeting, the launching meeting did
accused No. I make a speech, telling the people what it was all
about? -- Yes.
And did h ealso tell them about the other services the
Urban Resources Centre offered at St Ansgars? -- Yes.
Now thereafter was a steering committee elected from the
people present who were interested? -- Yes. (20)
And did most of these people have a say in the running of
the bulk buying scheme? -- Yes.
And you continued to administer it, didn't you, or to guide
them? -- Yes.
And they had meetings every week and distributed the food
they bought every Saturday, is that correct? -- Yes.
And is it correct that after the first meeting, accused
No. 1 did not have anything more to do with the running of the
SCheme? -- Yes, he did not.
He did not attend any more meetings or have any more (30)'
say in how it was run. -- No, he did not. That was the only
and/ •.•
3 441 MATSOBANE
and the last time that he was at a meeting.
The position is he launched the meeting and then left the
people to run it themselves under your guidance. -- Yes.
The other scheme you talked about, the literacy scheme,
this had nothing to do with th e Urban Resources Centre, did
it? -- No, it did not.
And after you had launched the successful bulk buying
scheme, were you also pulled in to help with a sewing scheme?
Yes.
And was this again to be a scheme which Urban (10)
Resources Centre would start by providing the initial capital
and that the people should then run themselves? -- Yes, that is
true.
And was the idea here that women who were skilled at
sewing and had sewing-machines would sew school clothing and
similar clothing which would be sold cheaply to other members
of the community? -- That is true.
And did you do some investigations and find there was a
potential market for this clothing? -- Yes.
In fact did you sign up a contract with the schools (20)
to buy school clothing from the scehem? -- Yes, I did.
And again is it correct that apart from providing the
initial money to buy the first lot of materials, accused No. 1
had nothing to do with the scheme, the actual managing? -- Yes,
that is true. The initial sum of money that wa5 given was only
a loan.
That had to be banked and later accounted for. -- Yes.
It was the working capital. -- Yes, that is so.
And I think you have told us you have never he~rd of any
youth awareness scheme connected with the Urban Resources (30)
Centre. -- Yes, I had not.
The! •••
3 442 MATSOBANE
The last point I do not know if you can give us some
information .that may clarify a little of what has gone before.
st Ansgars, you know the place? -- Yes, I do.
Do you know that in terms of the relevant laws it is an
area where Blacks are allowed to stay? -- Yes.
And one last •• (intervenes)
BY THE COURT: Wilgespruit as wel17
MR WILSON: No, M'Lord, I understand the position is that they
can have seminars and things at Wilgespruit but that they
cannot reside there, but at St Ansgars, the nextdoor (10)
property is subject to a different classification in terms of
the various •• (intervenes)
BY THE COURT: But can't they stay there over weekends while
attending seminars7
MR WILSON: They may be able to stay for that purpose.
BY THE COURT: That is what I mean.
MR WILSON: There is a classification difference between the
two properties that is why sometimes one was used rather than
others, one of the many complications of that legislation.
The last thing I would like to ask you about is the (20)
literacy scheme. Was the purpose of this to teach what was
known as functional literacy? Yes, that is so.
Was this the people were to acquire the skills of reading
and writing which were functional 1n their daily life and in
their employment? Yes, that is so.
THE COURT ADJOURNS.
3 443 MAGEZA
THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 24th JANUARY, 1979.
TEMPLETON MAGEZA: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)
EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Were you a student at Masupatsela
High School in 1976? -- Yes.
Do you know of an organisation known as either YARM or
YACM? -- Yes, I do.
How did you come to know about it? -- It was introduced
to all the students at school by Mr Matsobane.
Was this in 1976? -- Yes.
BY THE COURT: Is that Mike Matsobane? -- Yes. (l0)
MR SKWEYIYA: Were you yourself ever a member of YARM or YACM?
No.
Do you know a person known as Jonas Letswalo? -- Yes.
Is he a friend of yours? -- Yes, he is a close friend of
mine.
And is he still a friend of yours? -- Yes, though the
friendship has now changed.
When last did you see him for instance? -- Late yesterday.
I am going to read to you what he said in this court and
I want to hear what you say about that. M'Lord, I am (20)
referring to Vblume 37, page 1 631. He said to this court:
"I asked two of my friends at school,
Templeton Mageza and Allan Eastern to
accompany me to Mike's place. On our
way to Mike's place we met a friend of
ours, Patrick Tlhapane. He joined us
and went with us to Mike's place. We
found Mike at his place. There I
introduced these friends of mine to
him. These friends of mine stay in
Munsieville but Tlhapane does not stay
in/ •••
(30) .
3 444
in Munsieville. He told us that
Munsieville is a bad location.
BY THE COURT: Mike did? -- Mike
told us this."
Then he carried on and said this:
"And that this location Imust be
revived. He also said that there
are many naughty children in that
location. He said all this after
he had told us that he is in a hurry.
He then suggested or said that it
would be wise for us to join YARM
because we are senior students and
then we shall start this movement
in Munsieville."
MAGEZA
Now did Jonas Letswalo ever try to convince you to join YARM
or YACM? -- No, he never did.
Did you ever go with him together with Patrick Tlhapane
(10)
and Allan Eastern to Mike's place where Mike said this thing
which I have read to you? -- I never went to Mike's place (20)
with Patrick Tlhapane or Allan who is my brother. I went twice
to Mike's place in the company of Jonas.
Now we have heard in this court that Jonas Letswalo and
one Sabina Makhubane fell in love, became lovers. Do you know
anything about that? -- Yes, I know about that.
Were you in some ·way instrumental in the two falling in
love? -- Yes, I was.
Now, what sort of person would you describe Jonas
Letswalo as? -- I knew him as a person who did not h~ve
interests in many other things but only in his books.
He for instance had no interest in girls.
Now/ ••
(30 ) .
3 445 MAGEZA
Now just one last question. Since he was released from
detention - you know that he was in detention for some time
and then he was released some time. You know that7 -- Yes, I
know that.
And you say that you have met him and spoken to him I
presume. -- Yes.
I am going to ask you whether he made a report to you
about his treatment in detention. I do not want you to tell
us what he said, but whether he made a report to you with
regard to treatment in detention. -- As old friends, after (10)
his release he went to look for me and after finding me I also
wanted to know how life treated him for the last 11 months.
And he 1made a report to you. -- Which he also told me.
THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN.
ALLAN EASTERN: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)
EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Were you a student at Masupatsela
High School in 19767 -- Yes.
And have you ever heard of an organisation or body known
as YARM or YACM1 -- Yes.
Where did you hear about it? -- At school. (20)
Was this when Mike Matsobane had come to introduce YACM
at your school? -- Yes.
Were you yourself ever a member of YARM or YACM1 No.
Do you know a person known as Jonas Letswal01 -- Yes, I do.
Is he a friend of yours; -- No, he is a friend of my elder
brother.
By your elder brother you are referring to Templeton; --
Yes.
Now, Jonas Letswalo has given evidence in this court to
the effect that he one day was together with you and your (30)
brother Templeton when you were walking to Mike Matsobane's
house/ •••
3 446 EASTERN
house and you met one Patrick Tlhapane on the way and then you
all went to Mike Matsobane's place where Mike Matsobane started
saying to you people that Munsieville is a bad township and
that he wants to start YARM or YACM in the township Munsie
ville and that he wanted you to join YARM because you were
senior students. Do you know anything about that? -- No, I
do not know about that.
Do you know this person known as Patrick Tlhapane? -- No,
I do not know him.
THE WITNESS STANDS DOWN. (10)
SABINA MAKHUBANE: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)
EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Do you know accused No. 13,
Mike Matsobane? -- Yes, I know him.
Is he your brother-in-law? -- Yes, he is.
Betwe en about February, 1976 and December, 1976
were you staying at his house in Kagis07 -- Yes.
And at the time that you stayed at his house what were you
doing in Kagiso? -- I was attending school at the Masupatsela
High School where I did my form 4 and form 5.
Otherwi.se where is your home? -- Randfontein. (20)
Now, do you know anything about YARM or YACM1 Have you
ever heard of that organisation? -- Yes, I heard of it.
We have heard evidence in this court that this body was
introduced at Masupatsela High School early in 1976. Do you
know about that? -- Yes, I know about that.
Do you know Themba Hlatswayo?
BY THE COURT: I just want to get it clear. Do you mean you
heard it had been introduced or you were present when it was
introduced? -- I was present when it was introduced.
MR SKWEYIYA: And in fact is the position that you know
that Mike, your brother-in-law, took an active part in YARM
or! •••
(30 )'
3 447 EASTERN
or YACM? -- Yes.
him.
Now, do you know Themba Hlatswayo7 -- Yes, I do.
No. 15. And do you know Lathli? -- Yes, I know him.
Accused No. 16. And do you know Rodney? -- Yes, I know
No. 17. Were you and Rodney in the same class in 1976
and 1977? -- Yes, we were.
Did you study together at all with him? -- Yes, we did.
And did he frequent Mike's - in other words the place
where you were living, Mike's place? -- Yes, he did. (0)
And for what purpose was this? -- For purposes of helping
me with maths. We were doing maths together.
And do you know one Jonas Letswalo? -- Yes, I do.
Did he in fact become a boyfriend of yours? -- Yes.
And when did you fall in love with him? -- Early in
September during 1976.
And did he at times come to the place where you were
living? -- Yes, he did.
For what reason did he have to come to the place where
you were living? -- He came to visit me or at times to (20)
help with mathematic problems.
Now, had you ever seen him at the same time together with
Lathli, Themba Hlatswayo and Mike and Rodney at the place where
you were living, at Mike's place in other words, in a meeting?
No, I did not see them together.
Are you aware that YARM meetings were at times held at
Mike's place? -- Yes.
And are you able to give us some of the names of the people
who attended those meetings? -- I used to see Bro Hippo~
Is that Errol Letse1eha? -- Yes. And Bro Chicken. (30) .
Who is Bro Chicken? Is it Aaron Khoza? Yes. And
Brother/ •••
3 448 EASTERN
Brother Sipho .
Is that Sipho Ntuzula? -- I do not know his surname. And
Brother Johnson, Oupa Ngidi and Oupa Meje.
Are you able to remember whether you saw Johnson Nyati
as frequently as you saw the other gentlemen you have mentioned
or not? -- No.
BY THE COURT: No what? -- He did not come as frequently as
these others whose names I have mentioned.
MR SKWEYIYA: Now, when these people had come there what had
they come to your place to do? What did they come to do (lO)
at your place rather? -- They were holding YARM meetings.
Besides these you have mentioned were there other meetings
of any other type which you saw being conducted at your home
or at Mike's place? -- They used to have talks on Islam.
Can you give us the names of people who used to have talks
on Islam? -- I used to see Mr and Mrs Raborlf!, Mr and Mrs Khoza,
Mrs Mdlankomo.
After school what did you do? When school, you know, gets
finished for the day, what did you do? Or where did you go? -
I was going home and I would start preparing food when my (20)
elder sister was not home.
And was this sort of routine which you followed throughout
your stay at accused No. l3's place? -- Yes, though it was not
as an everyday practice. Whenever my sister was home, she would
do the work.
But you ' nevertheless went home after school? -- Yes.
Now during your stay in the period I have mentioned, from
the beginning, had you ever seen a group of between 12 to 15
stUdents in a meeting at Mike's place being addressed by Mike?
No. (30) ,
Now you 'know how big the house is in which you were staying,
that/ •••
3 449 EASTERN
that is Mike's place. Yes.
Let us take the kitchen. Do you think that a number of
people could sit there and sit comfortably in that kitchen? -
How many people did you say?
Between 12 and 15. -- No, they cannot.
What about the diningroom? -- No.
Now, you confided to each other with Jonas, I presume.
Is that correct? As lovers. Do not be shy now. -- Yes.
Did you ever know him to be a member of YARM7 -- No, he
never told me that.
Did he ever mention the fact of being a YARM member to
you? No, he never.
Do you know Dan Matsobane, accused No. l8? -- Yes, I
know him.
(10)
Have you ever seen him attending a meeting at your brother-
in-law'S place? No.
What about Rodney? -- Attending a meeting there?
Yes. For what purpose did he come to Mike's place? -- He
came to visit me or to study with me.
There has been evidence in this court that on the (20)
16th June, 1976 there was a group of persons on those premises
where a meeting was held and there was a demonstration of the
making of a petrol bomb by Mike Matsobane. Did you see anything
of that sort? -- No, I did not.
Do you think if there had been such a demonstration you
would have seen it? -- Yes.
Look at the gentleman sitting here in the dock. Do you
know this gentleman here? M'Lord, I am pointing at accused
No. 1. -- No, I do not know him.
Have you ever seen him at Mike's place? -- No.
THE COURT ADJOURNS.
e 30) '
3 4 50 MAGEZA
THE COURT RESUMES ON THE 29th JANUARY, 1979.
TEMPLETON MAGEZA: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you participate in
the rioting in 1976? I would not say so.
What do you mean by saying I would not say so? Did you
or did you not participate in the rioting in 1976? -- I did
not participate.
Not at all?
So you did?
participate.
Well, I did just here and there.
Yes, though I cannot say I truly did
(10)
And did you pay an admission of guilt fine? -- Yes, wemd.
Why weren't you prepared to admit your participation in
the riots in the first place when I asked you? -- This paymen~
was made on our behalf by our parents. We did not truly admit
having participated in those riots.
Did you know Jonas Letswalo to be a member of YARM or a
supporter of YARM? -- I did not know him to be a member.
And you did know about the existence of the organisa- (20)
tion of YARM? Yes, I came to know about it when it was
introduced at our school.
Ano why didn't you ever join the organisation? -- I have
no interest in any organisation even SCM or organisations like
SCM. I am only interested in sport.
And why did you attend the introductory meeting in r1arch,
1976? -- Our vice-principal told us that somebody would come to
our school to introduce something and he asked us to attend this
meeting, and he asked all the students to attend.
When were you first approached to come and give
evidence in this case? -- The Sunday before the Wednesday on
which! •••
(30)
3 ~ 5 1 MAG~ZA
which I appeared here when the subpoena arrived.
And were you then asked whether you had gone to Mike
Matsobane's house in the presence of Letswa10? -- Yes, this
was asked here in court.
But when you were approached to come and give evidence
here. -- No, the person who came to me is the person who had
brought the subpoena to me. He did not ask me this. When he
came to me, one of my parents was present.
So you were asked this question for the first time when
you gave evidence here in court? -- On our way to this (10)
place the advocate, though I do not know his name, asked me
this but it was just in passing.
Did you then reply to it? -- Yes.
Did you ever visit accused No. 13's house at any stage? -
Yes, I did.
And did that sometimes happen in the presence of Le tswal07
-- I went there because of Letswalo and Letswalo was ··going there
because of Selina.
So it was only last week that you had to think back about
the " visits you had paid to Mike Matsobane's house when ( 20)
you were asked this question by Counsel for the Defence? Yes,
there was nothing else that could have caused me to think back.
Now tell us these visits that you paid to Mike Matsobane
at his house or the visit that you had paid at his house, what
was discussed there? Can you remember? When I went there
for the first time I was in the company of Jonas. Selina was
on our arrival washing herself. Jonas and I sat in the kitchen
while waiting for Selina. We were also afraid of Mike who
was the owner of the house and we had gone to the house as young
men paying a young girl a visit. We thought he might have (30)
a lot to say about that but he arrived and he greeted us on
his/ •••
3 452 MAGEZA
his arrival. After greeting us he asked us if Selina was home.
He thereafter took a seat and started asking us how lif e WQS
going on. After some time he told us that he was leaving
though we did not know where he was getting to and I am not
sure whether or not 3elina had come from the room where she was
washing at that time. This was the last time I saw Mike. Whe n
we went to his place for the second time I was again in the
company of Jonas and we found Selina seated with friends.
Selina introduced us to her frienffi after we had taken a seat.
Se lina was talking to her friends or had conversations (10)
with her friends while Jonas and I spoke alone or had conversa
tions alone. This was because we were not used to these friends
of Selina's. Bro Mike then came in and greeted us. He then
left that room but I do not know where h e went to, whether he
had gone into a bedroom or to another room I did not know.
And did you see Bro Mike at his place after that meeting ?
I am sorry, I am referring to the second visit of yours.
No, I do not remember seeing him again except when we were in
the Krugersdorp Prison.
So you say that you cannot remember. -- No, I do not (20)
remember seeing him again. If I did see him thereafter, then
it could not have been in his house. It may perhaps have been
in the street.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
ALLAN EASTERN: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILSON: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAAIMAN: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: Did you participate in
the rioting in 1976? I cannot remember.
You cannot remember? I did not do anything in 1976.
The! •..
(30)
3 453 EASTERN
The previous witness, Templeton Mageza, is he your broter?
Yes, he is.
Did you ever visit accused No. l3's house? -- No.
Are you quite adamant about that or is it just a question
that you cannot remember ever visiting his house? -- I have
never been to his house.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: No questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
SABINA MAKHUBANE: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: You told us about
certain visits paid at Mike's house and then you added that
these people visiting accused No. 13, that they used to have
talks on Islam. Is that correct? Yes.
(10)
How many people visited accused No. 13 for this purpose?
It could be about five.
You have mentioned Mr and Mrs Raborifi and then a Mr
Mdlankomo. Were there other people also visiting Mi~e's house
for this purpose? -- I also mentioned Mr and Mrs Xl1oza.
And were there other people? -- No.
How do you know that they used to have talks on Islam? ( 20)
Bro Mike would tell us whenever these people were to come
to hold talks with him and asked us to prepare some refresh
ments for them. I also once attended these talks.
On one occasion? -- Yes.
But returning to the preparations for the meetings, what
did he tell you concerning these meetings? -- He used to tell
us that there was going to be talks on Islam on that day or
on a particular day.
And were these meetings in the evenings? -- Yes.
And apart from this one meeting that you did attend, (30)
you did not attend any of the other meetings? -- No.
And/ •••
3 4 511 r·1AKHUBANE
And you regarded those meetings to be meetings with
regard to the Islamic faith merely on what f"1ike had told you?
-- I also used to see these people carrying Islam books.
And did you hear any singing? -- No. '
And did you hear them talk during these meetings? Yes.
And were these meetings held behind closed doors?
Whe~er they had these meetings in the diningroom I could go in
to get my books for purposes of studying and I could hear them
talk. Now I cannot regard this as having held these talks
behind closed doors. (10)
And were these meetings held at any other place on the
premises? -- They would be in the diningroom or in the kitchen.
Do you know what the PAC is? I have heard of it in the
papers but I do not know what it i s .
Do you know that accused No. 13 had been to prison? -- Yes.
00 you know for what reason?
political reasons.
I was told it was for
BY TIII:.: COURT: Who told you? -- Bro Mike told me.
What else did he tell you? -- Concerning what?
Did he just say it was for political reasons? -- I (20)
had heard this from our other relatives and then when I got a
chance to ask him, I asked him why he had gone to jail. He
said it was for political reasons. I did not ask him anything
further.
MR ACKERMANN: Did accused No. 13 ever leave the house after
dark, during the night? At what time in the night?
At any stage while you were awake and that you can~count
for his movements? -- Yes, he did, though it was very seldom.
Can you remember how many times did he leave the house? --
No. (30)
Can you give an estimation? -- No, I cannot.
You/ •••
3 455 MAKIIUDANC
You say that he left the house very seldom. -- Yes.
What do you mean by that? -- I mean he would sometimes
leave once in a month and sometimes when he left then I knew
him to be taking children to his parents.
Whose children? -- His children.
So when he left the house under those circumstances it was
for private family purposes. -- Yes, as far as I know.
Did he ever leave the house without telling you for what
reason he was doing so? -- No, I do not know. Hemd not always
tell me why he was leaving. He sometimes told - he was (10)
telling his wife.
Did students ever visit No. 13's house while you were
there? -- No.
No students at all? -- The only people I knew to be visitin~
him were Lathli and Themba.
BY THC COURT: Is that No. 15 and 16? -- Yes.
MR ACKCRMANN: If other students were visiting him at his place
or were in fact visiting his place whether he was there or not,
you would have known about it? -- If any of the students came
to pay him visits in his absence and they told me that (20)
they had come to visit him, then I would know because I would
have to tell him.
Is it possible that he was paid visits by students with
out you knowing that? -- It can be possible if students paid
him visits in my absence.
When were you absent from the house? -- In the afternoon
after school when I may be away or could have been away on
having gone m the shops or accompanied friends.
And in the evening? -- I would not be going out in the
evening. (30)
BY TilE COURT: In th e evening you did not go out? -- No, I
did! •••
riAKIlUOANC
did not.
Could there be occasions when they visited him in the
evening that you would not know or were you always there? -
I do not understand the question.
If students visited him in the evening would you have
known always that they were visiting him? -- Ycs, I would
know because I did not go out in th e evening, I was always
home.
MR ACKERMANN: Themba Mazibuko do you know him? -- Yes.
He says that he was there together with B.G. Manamela (10)
as well as accused No. 15 and 16. -- All four of them at the
same time?
Yes. -- I do not know about that.
And Adam Kunupi did you see him there at accused NO. 13's
house? -- No, I did not.
Because according to Mike he was there as well.
present thc n:
~vas I
No, I want to know whether you can account for this visit
or not. At what time could it have been when he had visited
["1ike?
So you did not see Adam Kunupi there at Mike's place at
any stage? -- No, I did not.
Did you attend the introductory meeting of YARM at
Masupatsela School? -- Yes.
(20)
Did you join the organisation? -- Do you mean on that very
day or later?
At any stage. I did but not on the day on which it was
introduced at school. I asked Bro Mike to put my name on the
list of those who had joined.
When did you do that? -- It was after that intro- (30)
ductory meeting though I cannot remember the month.
Approximately/ •••
3 457 MAKHUBANE
Approximately? -- I cannot remember.
Was it before or after the outbreak of the riots in
June, 1976? -- Before the outbreak of the riots.
How long before the outbreak of the riots? -- No, I do
not know.
Why didn't you join at the introductory meeting in March?
We were not asked to join on that day but Bro Mike told
the students that whoever wanted to join could contact Lathli
or Themba.
Yes, and did you do so? -- No, I did not. I only (10)
asked him to put my name on th e list of those who had joined
and this was after a few weeks.
Did you ever participate in the activities of the
organisation?
BY THE COURT: What did Mike say to you when you asked him to
dothis? -- He agreed to do that.
And th en? I did not ask him later " whether
or not he had put my name on the list.
MI~ ACKERMANN: Did you ever participate in the activities of
the organisation? -- No. (20)
Why not? -- I realised that I no longer had much interest
in it. This is because I was busy with my school work.
And did the people at school know of the fact that you
were staying at accused No. 13's house? -- Yes.
And did they know of your relationship with accused No. 131
Yes, my friends knew that.
And did anybody ever approach you in connection with
YARM or YACM at school? -- No.
And did you ever discuss your membership with Mike, that
is membership of the organisation? -- All I discussed (30)
with him was when I asked him to put my name down on the list.
He/ •••
3 458 MAKHUBANE
He had also told me then that a certain fee was to be paid,
a membership fee and he promised to pay this for me.
But weren't you to set an example to the other students
in participating in the activities of the organisation? -- I
did not know that it was a must that I be an example only
because I stayed at Mike's place and he had introduced the
organisation.
But the people at school could see that this relative of
Mikes, that she is not even interested in the activities of
the organisation. Isn't that so? That would only (10)
depend on what they think of that or what their conclusion is.
I was spending much time on my schoolwork.
But nevertheless Mike never expected it from you to
participate in YARM activities? -- I do not know.
BY THE COURT: Did he not ask you to do so? -- He only asked me
why it appeared as though I was no longer interested because
the last thing I said to him was that he should put my name
down on the membership list.
MR ACKERMANN: And what did you reply? -- I told him I was
still busy with my schoolwork. (20)
And that was the end of the matter? -- Yes.
He never informed you about YARM or YACM activities? -- I
only heard talk that there was a journey to be taken to a
picnic.
Where did you hear that talk? -- It was while he had
talks with Lathli and Themba when they had visited him.
At home? -- Yes.
So there were certain occasions when No. 15 and IG visited
him where they discussed YARt1 matters. -- I do not know whether
or not they were only talking about YARM matters whenever (30)
they visited him because I did not - I was not in their company.
I/ •••
3 459 I'1AKHUBANE
I want you to cast your mind back to the evening of the
16th June, 1976. Do you remember? -- Yes.
Do you know what Mike did on that particular evening? -
What he did?
Yes. -- Like what?
BY THE COURT: Well, what did he do? -- In the evening?
MR ACKERMANN: Say from the afternoon onwards. -- He was
reading newspapers, this was after his ~rrival from work. He
later prepared a meal. After having had the meal he went to
bed. (10)
What did he do on the night of the 14th June, 1976? He
was at home on that evening though I cannot specifically
remember whether or not he read.
How is it that you can remember so well what he did on
the night of the 16th June, 1976! -- This is the day on which
the riots started in Soweto and if I remember well this also
appeared in the papers on that evening.
And did you discuss the riots, you and accused No. 13
as well as other people of the household? -- We discussed the
question of the riots that were said to have broken out (20)
in Soweto though we did not know whether or not it is true and
it had also been said some people had been shot.
Can you remember what Mike had to say about these riots
or the alleged outbreak of riots in Soweto? -- I cannot
remember.
And what were your personal feelings concerning the riots
at that stage? -- My personal feelings how?
What did you feel about the outbreak of the riots on the
16th June, 1976 in Soweto? -- This was the first time that I
heard of riots having broken out. I was only wondering (30)
what is happening.
Did/ •••
3 ~60 MAKHUBANE
Did you ask Mike about what was happening? -- No.
Why not? -- This did not occur to me.
But you had this discussion concerning the riots. -- I do
not know whether I should say this was a discussion or not
because all he said was, we have heard that there are riots.
And when did he tell you that he had gone to Robben
Island for political reasons? This was long before these
riots, when I started staying at his place.
What happened on the 17th June, 1976? -- I would say the
rioting started in Voka though I am not sure whether it (10)
started on the 17th or the 18th.
BY THE COURT: Where is that? -- Luipaardsvlei. This is
Kagiso 2.
MR ACKERMANN: And for how long did these riots last in Kagiso?
I do not know what to say how long these riots lasted because
there was rioting, then it would stop, after a few days it
would start again.
Up to the stage when the schools were reopened? -- Yes,
this happened even after the reopening of the schools.
So there was rioting allover the place for quite some (20)
time. -- Do you mean in Luipaardsvlei?
In Kagi~o Town~hip. -- Yes.
Up to the end of the year 1976. -- No, I can remember of
no rioting in December.
When did the rioting stop? -- In about September/October.
And did students - that is according to your own obser
vations - did students participate in this rioting? -- Yes.
Students of Masupatsela? -- Yes.
And did Mike ever say anything about tllis rioting going on
in Kagiso? -- He did not say anything to me. (30)
Didn't he ever ask you as a student of Masupatsela whether
any/ •••
3 4Gl MAKHUBANE
any stlldents of Masupatsela had participated in the rioting?
No.
And did he ever go and have a look at the damage inflicted
to property in the Kagiso Township?
BY THE COURT: How would she know that?
MR ACKERMANN: Did he ever tell you that he was going to
look at damaged property in the Kagiso Township? -- No, he did
not.
And you never accompanied him on such an errand? -- No.
When were you approached in connection with this case (10)
to come and give evidence here? -- It is not long, in about
November.
BY THE COURT: That is last year? -- Yes.
MR ACK~RMANN: And did you read about this case in the news
papers? -- Yes.
And what are your particular feelings concerning th~ fact
that your brother-in-law stands accused here? -- I cannot
understand. What my personal feelings are now that he stands
accused here?
Yes. -- I feel sorry that he should be here as an (V)
accused.
And the two previous witnesses, Templeton Mageza and
Mr Eastern, did you see them this morning? -- Yes.
Where did you see them? -- I came together with them.
In one car? -- Yes.
Did you discuss this case with them? -- Yes, what we were
saying was we were so shocked we do not know what was going
to happen.
Well I hope that you see that you had no reason to have
been shocked at all. Did you see Templeton Mageza after ('30)
he had given evidence here this morning? -- No.
RE-EXAMINATION/ •••
3 462
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA:
examination? -- Yes.
At Masupatsela? -- Yes.
MAKHUBANE
Did you pass your matric
When was this? -- The end of 1977.
And what class did you obtain? -- I got an F and then I
supplemented.
BY TIlE COURT: Do you mean you had to take some of the exams
again the following year? -- That is right. I then obtained a D.
That is a pass, is it? -- I obtained a D symbol in the
subject that I had to rewrite. (10)
That was in 1978? -- Yes.
That is a pass, is it? -- Yes.
MR SKWEYIYA: As I understand it is where you have failed in
certain subjects, you have to pass in certain subjects, if you
do not pass in them, you do not get a - apparently it was
probably one of the languages.
BY THE COURT: Then did you get .your school leaving certificate?
What is D? 30 to 40%?
MR SKWEYIYA:
BY THE COURT:
flR SKWEYIYA:
That is 50 and upwards.
40 to 50?
50 to 60. 50 to 59 to be exact.
(20)
BY THE COURT: It was very much lower in my days. So you got
your school leaving certificate at the beginning of 1978. Is
that correct? -- Yes.
MR SKWEYIYA: What are your plans about further schooling? -
I wanted to take SATD.
BY THE COURT: What is that? -- South African Teacher's Diploma,
but because I haven't got money at the moment I will have to
work and take this next year.
MR SKWCYIYA: As a member of YARM did you know YARM to
have anything to do with PAC at all? -- No.
And/ •••
' ( 30)
3 4C,3 MAKHUBANC
And what is the size of the house of accused No. l3?
Uf how many rooms does it consist?
BY THE COURT: Does this arise out of the cross-examination?
MR SKWCYIYA: She was asked in what rooms the meetings were
held and so on.
DY TilE COURT: No, she just simply said that it was held in
the kitchen and the diningroom.
MR SKWEYIYA:
house has.
Yes, I am entitled to know how many rooms the
BY THE COURT: That does not arise out of cross-examina- · (10)
tion.
MR SKWSYIYA: With respect, it is relevant to the extent that
we should know whether there is somebody in the house or not.
BY THE COURT: Yes, go on. -- It consists of three rooms.
What do you mean by three rooms? -- Diningroom, bedroom
and? -- And a kitchen.
Diningroom, kitchen and bedroom? -- Yes.
One bedroom? -- Yes.
Well, where do you sleep then? In the diningroom.
When were you born? -- The 4th of the 4th month 1957. (20)
4th April, 1957. -- Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
THE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH. THE COURT RESUMES AT 14hOO.
DANIEL MATSOBANE: still under oath:
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ACKERMANN: When did you first enroll
at the University of the North? -- In 1969.
And what did you want to become after the completion of
your studies there? -- I wanted to be a teacher.
And when was your course to be completed?
Now, did you know Abraham Tiro? -- Yes.
Was he a fellow student of yours? -- Yes.
And/ •••
1972.
(30)
3 464
And was he also a friend of yours? -- No.
Did you know him? -- Yes.
HATSOBANE
Did you discuss various matters with each other while both
being students at the University of the North? -- No.
Was he a student leader at the university? -- Yes.
And did you admire him for being a leader of the students
there? -- Yes.
And then in 1972 Abraham Tiro was expelled from the
University of the North. -- Yes.
And what were your feelings at that stage concerning (10)
this expulsion of Mr Tiro? -- I felt that he had been expelled
for no reason.
And you felt some bitterness about this expulsion of Mr
Tiro? -- Yes, anything unfair to me will make me feel bitter.
And were you allowed to continue with your studies in 1972
or were you also expelled from the university? -- I was suspended
and then later an expulsion against me was confirmed.
That was also in 1972? -- Yes.
When you were about to complete your studies. -- Yes.
What were your feelings then? -- I felt bitter because (20)
no explanation for my expUlsion was advanced, I do not know to
this moment why I was expelled.
BY THE COURT: vJhy were you suspended though? -- The university
was closed in about May so we were all suspended and we were to
re-enroll again or re-apply.
MR ACKERMANN: Did you have any interest in politics at that
stage? -- In student politics, yes.
And you were a Inember of SASO. -- That is true.
Jllst an ordinary member or did you hold any pusition in
the organisation? -- I was just an ordinary member. (30)
Did you try to establish a SASO branch at Kagiso after
you/ •••
3 4G5 MATSOCAN~
you had r e turned from the univer s ity? -- The students we r e too
few to establ ish a branch in Kagiso but all the same the
organisation was only in universities.
By saying that the students we re too few in Kagiso, do
you mean by that that you did try to establish a branch of
SASO in Kagiso? -- No.
Did you not try to establish a SASO branch at any stage?
That is true.
Do you know Bokwe Mafuna? -- Yes.
from where do you know him? -- I knew him to be a (10)
member of the executive of SASO.
Did you meet him personally at some or other stage? -- No.
And one Jeff Baqwa? -- I know him as well.
From where do you know him?
BY THE COURT: When you say I know Baqwa, do you mean you know
of him? -- I know uf him.
You have not met him though? -- No, I have not. ""
MR ACKERMANN: Do you know whether Bokwe Mafuna stayed on in
South Africa or not? -- Could you repeat that?
Bokwe Mafuna was an executive member of SASO. -- Yes. ( ~v )
Did he leave the Republic on a permanent basis or not?
I do not know.
And Jeff Baqwa, do you know whether he had left South
Africa? -- Yes, I read this in the papers.
When did you read that? -- I cannot say when this was.
I usually read papers and I cannot say what article appeared in
which paper or when.
Now I want to show you a notebook. I want to know from
you whether you are able to recognise it. -- I do recognise it.
And that first page is it in your handwriting? -- Yes. (30)
That will be EXHIBIT MMMMM. Why did you write that
particular/ •••
3 4 Lb ,... f"1 ATSOI3ANE
parti c ular page there in that specific not e book? I only
recognise my handwriting on that notebook but I did not read
what it contains. If I could be given an opportunity to go
through it.
You will see here at the top of that particular page, the
words appear there:
"Black theology literature freedom 71"
Yes.
And it appears to be a speech that you prepared for some
or other occasion. It starts with:
"Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen,
I shall attempt to give the conference
a report as clear as possible and in
this regard I will start off by giving
the synopsis of what transpired."
(JO)
Are you perhaps able to remember what conference is referred to
here? -- No, I cannot exactly remember when or which ··conference
is referred to here.
Then l e t us proceed with the next paragraph:
"I am sorry the report will not be mentioned
in the sequence of days there, but an over
all picture will suffice I think. Many
interesting topics were discussed in the
simulation groups, inter alia the South
African situation with its sick violence."
Then you go over to the next page:
"Violence is initiated by those who
oppress, who exploit and who fail to
recognise others as persons, not by those
who are oppressed, exploited or un
recognised."
Dol •••
( ;> 0)
(30)
3 4('7
Do you see that? -- Yes.
MATSOBANF:
Were those your sentiments at some or other stage? -- Yes
Are they still the feelings that you have concerning the
situation in South Africa? -- Yes.
That violence is initiated by the people who oppress the
others in this country? -- Yes.
Now do you by that refer to the White/Black situation,
that the Whites in South Africa initiate violence used by Blacks
in South Africa? -- Could you repeat the question please?
Do you by that mean that the Whites initiate violence? (10)
Yes.
Because of the oppression of the Black people in South
Africa? -- That is true.
And the violence so initiated by the White people is the
violence used by the Black people?
the Whites and the Blacks.
This is the violence by
Is that the only ,violence referred to here? -- Yes.
When you say that violence is initiated by those who
oppress. -- Yes.
Now, do you know of a Black Renaissance Convention? ( 20)
Yes.
What do you know about the organisation? -- What I know
is that there was a conference of the Black Renaissance
Convention though I do not remember in which year it was held.
It could have been in about 1974 but I am saying this under
correction and it was held in Hammanskraal.
BY THE: COURT: That is not this convention that is referred to
in this E:XHIBIT MMMMM? -- It is not.
MR ACKE:RMANN: You are shown a paper there, entitled:
"The aims and objects of the Convention" (30)
that is the Black Renaissance Convention. Do you see it? -- Yes.
And/ •••
3 468 MATSOBANE
And there are two handwritten paragraphs on that specific
piece of paper. -- Yes, I do see the paragraphs.
Who wrote those two paragraphs? -- I wrote them.
M'Lord, may this go in as EXHIBIT NNNNN. How did it come
about that you attended this convention?
BY THE COURT: The two handwritten paragraphs are yours, are
they? -- Yes, I wrote these paragraphs.
It is the handwritten paragraphs that you wrote? -- Yes.
MR ACKERMANN: How did it come about that you attended this
convention at Hammanskraal? -- Various organisations in (10)
this country were invited to this Black Renaissance Convention,
inter alia church organisations, political organisations and
bodies like the Coloureds Representative Council, there were
also representatives from the government of Lobowa, there were
also ministers of religion. As I have said it was a cross
section of the Black people in South Africa.
And who invited all these organisations there? I do not
know who the convenor of the conference was, but the invitation
was entitled Black Renaissance Convention.
Why did you add these two handwritten paragraphs to (20)
the four typewritten paragraphs on this particular piece of
paper? ' - This is what happened. Speeches were being given
and thereafter were the participants divided into smaller
groups to discuss different issues.
BY THE COURT: Small discussion groups? -- Yes. I also belonged
to one of the discussion groups. I wrote on this piece of paper
what was being discussed in the discussion group to which I
belonged and I wrote this when we were to report back.
To repo rt back? -- When we were to report back aft e r the
dis c ussion groups.
MR ACKeRMANN: These are your personal feelings wh a t is said
here/ •••
(30)
3 4G9
here in handwritten paragraphs 1 and 2? -- Yes.
Now what do you mean by saying:
"We therefore (that is in handwritten
paragraph 1) pledge ourselves to enter
tain any sacrifice leading to full
citizenship and freedom."
f.1ATSOCANC
What I mean is that we will sacrifice as Blacks whatever we
have which will lead us to obtaining full citizenship and free
dom.
And what would this sacrifice entail? -- There are (10)
times when one has to offer his services in places like the
location, the activities there and also bearing in mind that
those services will help the people so served to help them
selves. Because my belief is that the amount of education I
already have, the little education I already have is not for me
alone hut also for other people. I would therefore whereve r
possible offer my services free of charge. I aligned" myself
with what the discussion group reported after we had had those
discussions and that is what is written in these two paragraphs.
Was that the only sacrifice that you would be prepared (Z0)
to makp in this struggle for full citizenship and freedom? -
That would depend on the situation I would be finding myself in,
which is what else do I have to sacrifice.
And the sacrifices that you would be prepared to make, you
would make within the framework as laid down by the White man?
If you could explain. I do not understand you.
You would never be prepared to break the law for instance.
No.
Now to return to Mr Tiro, do you know that he went to
Dotswana at some or other stage? -- Yes, I read about that (30)
in the papers.
And/ •••
3 47U l"lATS013AfH':
And do you know that at some or other stage he was killed
by a parcel bomb? Yes.
And what did you think about this killing of ~ man that
you had once held in high regard? -- I was very sorry.
Who did you think was responsible for this act? -- I do
not know.
But isn't it so that SASO blamed the White government in
South Africa for that act? -- I do not know.
Ar e you able to recall a shooting incident that took place
at the Western Deep Levels Mine in September, 19737 -- Yes, (10)
I do vaguely remember this, I do not clearly remember it.
And is it so that you regarded at some or other occasion
that this shooting incident to be a second Sharpeville? -- I
have already said th at I vaguely remember that inc ident. I
cannot very clearly remember what actually happened there and I
can therefore not say that I did say this is an incident similar
to that one of Sharpville.
To summarise you say that violence is initiated by th e
oppressor in South Africa. -- Yes.
That is by the White oppressor against the Black man (20)
in South Africa. -- Yes, most of the Whites.
And you were very dissatisfied with the expulsion o f Mr
Tiro from Turfloop. -- I was not satisfied and I do not think
anybody could be satisfied with an action of that kind, a
colleague being expelled in that manner and I do not think
anybody can be satisfied with having his education career
ended in that manner.
And you were also very dissatisfied considering your own
e xpul s ion fr o m Turfloop. Yes, I wa ~ not.
And what did you do to change this situation? -This (30)
unjust situation in South Africa. -- Well, I could personally
not/ •••
3 471
not do anything but I felt the services which I offered to my
community were the only thing I could do as an individual.
So your contribution to the struggle for total Black
freedom was this community service that you rendered? -- I want
yo u to clearly understand me on this by saying the services
I offpred to the community I mean I had realised that there is
nothing I can do to change the situation of the country but I
felt the services I could offer to my community was the only
thing I could do.
You had this interest in student politics while you (10)
were at university. -- Yes.
Did you think of joining any political organisation after
you had left university? -- Yes, I did.
What were your thoughts in this regard? I thought if I
could join with a political organisation then I could perhaps
find out from the organisation what could be done.
What did you do in this regard? -- I encountered many
problems after leaving the university. These problems we re
concerning me and my people at home.
BY THE: COURT: Per sonal problems? -- Yes. (20)
MR ACKERMANN: Can you perhaps elaborate on that? -- These
problems are problems like this one: after having left the
university I was still desirous to continue with my studies.
My people were poor and I had to work for them. I stayed for
quite a time without employment. These are the problems I
encountered. Another thing again was that the children had
grown up, there were many and the only person who could take
over from my parents was myself.
But you still had this political interest of yours. -- Yes,
my spirit still had it. (30)
And you wanted to make a contribution in this particular
field/ •••
3 472 MATSOBANE
field as far as Black freedom was concerned? -- Yes, if I
could get the opportunity.
When you took up employment, what did you do then? -
There were still difficulties even after having taken up
employment. I had to work and I still wanted to continue with
my studies.
But did you not find the time to make any contribution as
to any political organisation of any kind? -- I could to the
time of my arrest not join any political organisation.
Did you know at that stage of your life of any other (10)
person making a contribution to a political organisation?
Yes, there is a political organisation and I know that the
people who are members of that organisation do offer their
services.
Is that the BPe? -- Yes.
And was there a BPe branch in Kagiso, that is when you
returned from campus? Not to my knowledge.
Was there at any stage a npe branch in Kagiso? -- We ll,
there was only a rumour that there is a branch but I never had
the opportunity to meet the people. (20)
But you would have liked to meet them if only you had the
opportunity. -- Yes.
Because you wanted to make a contribution if only you had
the opportunity. -- Yes.
And if only you had the opportunity you would instil
other people with the spirit of making a contribution towards
Black freedom. -- Yes, that is correct.
Especially when it comes to young people. -- Anybody.
Anybody. And what would you have told them if only you
had the opportunity of instilling them with political (30 :
feelings? -- Well, this is a hypothetical situation. If I were
to/ •••
3 473 r·1ATSG I3/dJ I.::
to bA in an organisation then I would disseminate its principles.
I am going to put it to you later on that the situution is
not or was not so hypothetical as you might think it was. Now,
I would like you to turn to the situation at Wilgespruit. When
did you first take up employment at Wilgespruit? -- Towards
the e nd 0 f 1 9 73 •
And how did it come about that you took up employme nt there '
-- I applied to organisations and firms which I knew and I got a
response from Wilgespruit.
So apart from Wilgespruit you also applied to other (10)
organisation s and firms? -- Yes.
BY THe COURT: Was that for work? Yes.
MR ACKERMANN: Why did you apply to Wilgespruit? What kind
of a job did you want to get there? -- Clerical work.
And did you have any discussion with anybody from Wilge-
spruit c6ncerning your employment there? . In other words any
interview with an official working there? -- Yes, I did.
With whom? -- The Reverend White.
And what did he tell you? -- I had applied for a clerical
job and when I got there he gave me the job. ( 20)
What was going on at Wilgespruit at that stage? Were any
projects undertaken there? -- Yes, there were projects.
And one of these projects was the Urban Industrial Mission?
That is correct.
That is towards the end of 1973. Yes.
And what were the other projects at that stage?
was a domestic workers project and another one which is
abbreviated YES.
There
BY TilE COURT: •• (inaudible) I cannot remember it offhand,
I may perhaps be in a position to remember it later. (30:
MR ACKERMANN: Was anything going on at st Ansgars at that
stage/ •••
3 474 f1ATS0I3ANE:
stage towards the end of 1973? No, I do not know.
When did the Urban Resources Centre first start to operate,
if I can call it that way? -- I had been at Wilgespruit for
some time when I first came to know about the Urban Resources
Centre and also about st Ansgars in about mid-197t1.
Is it so that some of the activities that had been under
taken at Wilgespruit were moved to st Ansgars? -- I do not
know. I did not know whether there was any cooperation between
these two because the two places were adjacent to each other.
So you ,did not know of any cooperation between these (10)
two institutions to call them that way? -- Yes, I did not
know of any cooperation.
And when you first became aware of the existence of the
URC it was already at st Ansgars? -- Yes, that is correct.
When did you first start with the literacy program of
the Urban Industrial Mission? -- Which one now of the Industrial
Mission?
How many programmes were there of the Industrial l"lission?
You have spok~n about a literacy project which was with
the Industrial Mission. Now I just want to know which (~O)
one.
Evidence was given ,here by Miss Mosweu concerning a
literacy campaign or a literacy program. -- Yes, I understand.
Were there any other literacy programmes apart from that
one: Yes, there was a class for the people who were employed
there.
Where? -- At Wilgespruit .
But that did not have anything to do with the Urban
Industrial Mission? -- No, I do not know what to say now. Is
that a question? (30)
Yes. -- What is the question?
Did/ •••
3 475 MATSOI3Af~E:
Did the oth~r literacy program have anything to do with
the Urban Iridustrial Mission? -- Well, there was a class for
the employees there, the elderly people who were employed there.
They were being taught to read and write. Now I do not kndw
whether to say this was also under the Urban Industrial Mission
or not but let us say it was.
Because I do not want any confusion here. So there were
only those two programmes? The one as testified to by Miss
Mosweu and the other one, the local one for the workers at
WFC? -- Yes. (10)
How did it happen that certain coordinators were trained?
Did you ask these people to come for such training or how did
it come about? I . am sorry, I want to make it clear. That is
the literacy program as testified to by Miss Mosweu. This
is what happened as I also testified earlier that after we had
started with classes at school, elderly people who wanted to
learn also came, thinking that this was a school where everybody
could be admitted. I was at the time the only person helping
though this was with the assistance of another teacher. I
as a result had a lot of work and I could not cope with (20)
the work. I made announcements in the classes we had that
there are elderly people who wanted to come and learn and I
wanted to know if there was anybody who would be interested in
helping them.
Where did you make that announcement? Was that during
the night school classes? -- Yes.
These night classes did you have them in your private
~apacity? -- Yes.
And was that before or after you had taken up employment
at Wilgespruit? -- After I had taken up employment there. (30)
Yes, and what happened then? -- Certain people then
volunteered/ •••
3 47G MATSOBANE
volunteered to help and I then said that special training was
necessary in order to be able to help elderly people. When
the people who had volunteered to help came, I had already
qualified as a literacy instructor.
Had you qualified as such at Wilgespruit? -- I was trained
elsewhere. The c ourse I took was being run by the Bureau of
Literacy and Literature. I took this course while I was
already employed at Wilgespruit.
BY THE COURT: I just do not understand now. I am completely
lost with all these. What is the Bureau of Literature and (10)
Literacy? -- It is an organisation that trains people into
being" literacy instructors and literacy teachers.
This is not at Wilgespruit? -- Yes, it is not.
But you had taken this while you were working at Wilge
spruit? -- Yes.
MR ACKERMANN: And because you were working at Wilgespruit?
What did I take because I was working there?
This course at the Bureau for Literacy. -- I would have
taken it even if I did not work there.
The question is did your employers at Wilgespruit (20)
ask you to take that course? -- What I know is th~t there was
a letter - or a letter at Wilgespruit was received, this letter
was to inform of the course that was to be taken or that could
be taken at the Bureau of Literacy and Literature. I was then
asked if I was interested or not.
Asked by whom? -- Asked by the director.
Who was that? -- The Reverend White.
Then you qualified as a literacy teacher at the Bureau
for Literacy? -- Yes.
BY THE COURT: Where is this Bureau? -- It is in Braam-
fontein.
Is/ •••
(30) .
3 477 MATS08ANE
Is it run by the llniversity or who is it run by? -- It is
an organisation on its own as far as I know and ·it is not
connected with the university. This is to my knowledge .
Could you tell me did you have to pay these people? Ye s.
What did you pay them? I cannot remember whether it was
R50 or RIOO but I would say it was RSO.
Was that for the whole course? -- Yes.
And how often did you have to go? -- For 5 days.
One after the other? -- Yes.
What time in the morning did you go there? -- From (10)
0 9hOO t o 16hOO.
And then what did they say? Were you then qualified to do
what? -- I qualified as a literacy teacher.
~as there some sort of docurnent they g ave you, a diploma
or a letter ur something to s how that you had done this cours e ?
Yes, ther e is a do c ument I was given although I first had to
run a class some time and then I could be accredited a cp rtifi
cate to sho\J that I was a qualified literacy teacher.
And they charged you HSO or RIOO? -- I would say it was
about R50 because I went there to be trained as a literacy (20)
teacher. I was trained for a week.
Was it something per day, did you pay per day, RIO a day
sort of thing? -- No, I had to pay for the whole course.
MR WILSON: It appears to be situated at a place 313 Oumwell
House in Braamfontein.
BY THE COURT: And then they give you a document and say that -
did you have to pay before you started or after you .had finished
I paid before I started.
MR ACKERMANN: Did you payor did your employer pay? -- I paid
in the sense that I asked for a loan, then paid for the (30)
course and I had to repay 50% of the loan.
Nevertheless/ •••
3 478 MATSOBANE
Nevertheless you were now busy with these night classes.
Yes.
Miss Mosweu was she also attending one of these night
classes? Yes.
And Mr Errol Letseleha, Hippo? -- Yes.
In what capacity? -- If I am not mistaken he also did
attend the classes and I cannot remember whether or not he was
doing JC but he did not continue for a long time.
But they both attended as students? -- Yes.
BY THE COURT: Is this now a literacy class? -- I was
asked if these people attended as students at a night school.
I was answering that question.
The night school what class was that you were holding?
In what subject? -- JC and matric.
But what subjects? -- Biology and Tswana.
MR ACKERMANN: Is it here that you handpicked your coordinators,
the people who had to be trained as literacy teacher~? -- I
did not handpick anybody, people volunteered.
So they volunteered. Now, Hippo, did you know him before
the stage when he attended these night classes? -- Yes. (20)
How did you know him? Well, he stayed in the locati9n
and I know many people in the location.
Did he at any stage have anything to do with the Urban
Industrial Mission? -- Well there was a Works Committee at his
place of employment and he was the chairman of the Works
Committee. As I testified earlier the Urban Industrial Mission
offered services to such committees. He was a member of such
a committee.
Now to have it clear, did you then tell your employer, that
is Reverend Dale Whi te, about this need for Ii teracy (30)'
classes? -- Yes, I did.
And/ •••
3 479
And what was his reply?
MATSOBANE
I had gone to him to ask him
for a loan. This was because the school had no money at the
time.
That is the night school? -- Yes.
Yes? I also wanted permission to use the conference
facilities at the place.
At Wilgespruit? -- Yes.
Yes? -- He agreed.
BY THE COURT: Do you mean the rooms? -- The hall and a place
for catering. (10)
MR ACKERMANN: That night school was a private business
enterprise? -- Yes.
And you were in charge of this night school? -- Yes.
BY THE COURT: Now this is the night school in some of the
schoolrooms at Kagiso? -- Yes.
MR ACKERMANN: And you received money from people attending
these classes at the night school? -- Yes, that is correct.
So apart from the Reverend White agreeing to the use of
the facilities at Wilgespruit, what else did he say? Did you
then discuss the possibility of holding these literacy (20)
classes? -- Yes, at the place, at Wilgespruit.
BY THE COURT: Can you just tell me when you asked him for the
loan of the hall and facilities, the use of them, was that in
order to accommodate what? Literacy classes or the night
school or what? -- This was to enable us to train the people
who had volunteered to be teachers as literacy teachers.
MR ACKERMANN: Is that all that the Reverend White had to do
with the literacy classes? That you approached him to render
facilities for these coordinators to be trained? -- Yes.
Nothing was said about the classes itself? -- I do (30)
not understand.
Did/ •••
3 480 MATSOBANE
Did you at that stage discuss the possibility of a literacy
project with him? No, not to my knowledge.
BY THE COURT: So all you wanted was facilities to help you
train these coordinators? Yes.
And you personally were going to train them? -- Yes, and
those who would help me. I would personally, with the
assistance of those who would help me train the coordinators.
I thought that you had asked for volunteers and then you
were going to train them and then they would be able to help
you. You must tell me if I am wrong. -- It is so. (10)
When you said I and those who would help me would do the
training? Who are the people who would help you did you have
in mind? Other literacy instructors who would be present
and help in the running of that course.
MR ACKERMANN: Where would they come from? -- There are
literacy instructors in this country.
BY THE COURT: That does not help me you know, please I am
trying to get my notes correct. Now who did you have in mind
who would assist you? Or didn't you have anyone particular in
mind? -- I had two people in my mind whom I would ask or (20)
call to come and be present and be my helpers in conducting this
course and these are Angela Norman and Pusetso Lethlabika.
MR ACKERMANN: And where were they employed at that particular
stage? -- Pusetso was employed in the Johannesburg suburbs as
a literacy instructor and literacy teacher. She was employed by
the organisation known as the Domestic Workers and Employers
Project.
Who is that? Angela Normal? -- No, Pusetso.
BY THE COURT: What was this project then? Was this project
this had nothing to do with your Urban Resources centre or (30)
the Urban Industrial Mission or anything like that, the
Domestic/ •••
Collection Number: AD2021 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012
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